Joe Rogan Experience #1474 - Dr. Rhonda Patrick

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (inhales) What were you…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (inhales) What were you saying? (laughs)

   2. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:04

      (laughs) Damn you. You suck.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      No, it's not that embarrassing. You just-

   4. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:09

      Some-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      You get... Go ahead.

   6. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:09

      Like, sometimes when I get nervous, my eye will start watering, like...

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      I don't think that's odd. I think that's probably pretty normal. I mean, your system's fired up and, y- you know, your eyes are probably trying to clear themselves.

   8. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:22

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Right? Maybe, you know... I mean, I'm just speculating, but maybe-

   10. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:25

       Maybe pe- maybe people will message me after this, this podcast and be like, "That happens to me too," and I'll feel better, like... (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       I'm sure. It doesn't sound that odd. It's not... Certainly not embarrassing, so I don't know why you're embarrassed by eyes watering if you're nervous.

   12. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:37

       Okay. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Um, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it.

   14. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick0:40

       I am super... Uh, always happy to come.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Well, we've been talking and we've been talking about, uh, immune systems, and this is one of the main things that I wanted to talk to you about, like what are the str- 'Cause this... All we're hearing is, "Shelter in place, wear a mask, don't touch anybody, don't go outside." But we're not hearing, what can you do to strengthen your immune system? And I think that as a public health, a public service, you know, uh, health thing, this is, uh, one of the most important things that I think you can really focus and concentrate on, and an actual thing that you can be proactive about during this weird time.

   16. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:16

       Yeah. Well, definitely, I think focusing on, on, you know, lifestyle factors that you can, you know, possibly modulate your immune system and strengthen it is, is important. What's interesting is that the immune system is... You know, after doing just so much... Of course, the past, like, couple of months, I've been nothing but, like, reading about the immune system-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       (laughs)

   18. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:38

       ... and trying to understand, of course, this new virus, SARS-CoV-2. Um, but I've just learned so much, uh, you know, over la- the past couple of months. I'm not an immunologist, I'm not an infectious disease expert, so, um, you know, while I've had some training in, in immunology, I definitely, you know, didn't know... don't know everything there is to know. But what just... You know, doing some, some reading about, like, why are people's immune systems so different? Like, that's, that's the big thing, like when you take, like, a young population. As you get older, your immune system does decline. I mean, there's lots of changes that occur. But like, in general, like, people have different immune systems, and what's interesting is that there's been tons of, like, genetic studies done on, like, you know, identical twins and they're followed over time, and what's found is that genetics is not the major regulator of immune function. Um, it's something in the environment, and what... This is what surprised me, and, and it's not totally gonna answer your question, but w- we can totally get to that, but the main... One of the main things besides age that regulates the immune system is, like, previous exposure to viruses.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:40

       Hmm.

   20. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick2:41

       Like, so I th- I thought that was really interesting, and in particular, one, one virus, the cytome- megalo virus, CMV. Did you know, like, between 50 to 80% of the US population has it? Like, at least by the time they're, like, an adult?

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Has it permanently or has caught it?

   22. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick2:56

       Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a herpes virus, so it's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       Oh.

   24. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick2:58

       ... it's a lifelong thing. And this is why it basically... So, it, it, it changes your immune system.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       What are the symptoms of it?

   26. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick3:05

       Most people that are healthy don't ever know they have it 'cause there's no symptoms.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       Whoa.

   28. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick3:08

       Yeah, unless you're immunocompromised. But most people that are healthy, they don't know, you know, that they're infected with it.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       Sa- wha- Say it again. What is it called?

   30. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick3:15

       The cytomegalovirus. It's CMV.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. So there... I…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      the new coronavirus. That's very interesting.

   2. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick15:02

      Yeah. So there... I think, you know, there's, there's lots of avenues for, you know, therapeutics and, you know, in addition to, like, repurposing drugs, um, monoclonal antibodies, you know, being able to basically identify antibodies that do neutralize SARS-CoV-2 virus, whether they come from llamas or humans, you know, and basically identify the specific antibody that can bind to that spike protein that you just mentioned, which is, um, that region. It's known that the antibodies bind there and neutralize it. It's also the region that, that is used to get inside of the cell. So, um, monoclonal antibodies, I think, are a really big, um, you know, possibility for a promising therapeutic because you can then... I mean, the problem is growing, like, large-scale manufacturing them, right? So, like, if you can identify these antibodies and then manufacture them, you can inject them in people and then potentially get some protection. The problem is, is that that's not gon-... Like, it's just gonna be a short-lived protection. Like, it's gonna be... It's not like you can... It's not like a vaccine where your body's making its own antibodies and they're, and they're more longer lived, you know?

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:08

      Oh, I see.

   4. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick16:08

      But I-

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:09

      So, in areas where people are getting exposed, perhaps you could give it to them and it would stop them from getting... But how long when you say short-lived?

   6. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick16:16

      We... Well, we... I don't know. I mean, how... So it's, you know, it, it's probably enough to pre-... Like, if you're a healthcare worker, your first line, you know, health, you know, first, uh, responder, people that are definitely, like, being exposed to large doses of the virus, um, that, that could be a promising area. But also, I think even just treating patients, like, that have already been infected, you know? So that's, that's also another...

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:41

      Hmm.

   8. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick16:41

      So, like, in combination with some of this other stuff, like remdesivir, uh, which is, you know, it's not like a, a silver bullet, but it seems like it's also promining- promising probably with combination of other, other factors as well. Um, but yeah, the mono- monoclonal antibodies is a really... I know there's, like... Regeneron's a big company. They're, um, they're, they're growing some large-scale ones. I think theirs, uh, they, uh, they isolated from humanized mice or something, but there's other companies that have isolated them from humans that have been infected. Uh, so, you know, that's, that's definitely, um, a promising area for sure. And the... A good thing about that is that, um... Have you heard of antibody-dependent enhancement? Do you know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:20

      No.

   10. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick17:21

       So that's a big concern. Um... All right. So, so basically, when you... when your body is exposed to a pathogen, like a virus, your, your innate immune system, you know, the first line of defense, like neutrophils, things like that, are making hydrogen peroxide, trying to kill the virus. But then in the background, your adaptive immune system, and I'm just totally generalizing, is tr-... you know, is, is also working in the background and, you know, part of that, uh, an adaptive immune response is, you know, to produce antibodies. So you have memory B cells that are making antibodies that are specific to bind to different regions, ep- epitopes on the virus and neutralize them, prevent them from getting inside of the cell. Um, and so, uh, that adaptive immune system usually takes about seven days after you're exposed to the virus, right? Um, the problem is, uh, antibody-dependent enhancement. So sometimes... A neutralizing antibody is an antibody that can bind to the virus and neutralize it, stop it from entering your cell, right? So your... it's doing its job. But you sometimes make antibodies that are non-neutralizing or don't...... do as good of a job, they don't bind as tight or something. And, um, then you can have what's called antibody dependent enhancement, and this was, like, a big problem for R- the RSV vaccine. Um, back in the, you know, like, most kids get RSV. It's a respiratory tract infection that most kids get it by the time they're two. Uh, like, and there's no vaccine that, that are, that's given. Uh, back in the '60s there was, um, this antibody dependent enhancement happened in some clinical studies with toddlers, and some toddlers got really, really sick and a couple died. But what happens is, basically, the antibody binds to the... There's a couple things. The antibody binds to the virus and can basically sh- change its conformation and allow the virus to get into the cell better, so then you become, like, you know, you get, like, a higher viral load and then you don't have antibodies to neutralize it and it just, you know, it could be more, it could be, it could lead to death. Um, the other thing that happens is the antibody binds to the virus, doesn't neutralize it, but it, like, makes this crazy immune complex that, like, activates your immune system to just go haywire and it causes all sorts of pathology in... That's what happened with the RSV toddlers. So, there's a few viruses that this happens with, and unfortunately coronavirus is one. Like, this has been identified with the SARS-CoV-1, um, virus, and I think MERS as well, where, um, uh, it... So this is also a problem with vaccines. So, like, people, like, giving, giving the vaccine, people's immune response, um, some people can have that antibody dependent enhancement, and that's what was shown to happen with these, with the SARS-CoV-1. There was some non-human primate studies that, that did that, um, and also, uh, animal studies as well. So, you know, mon- the thing with monoclonal antibodies is they're a little more specific 'cause you know they neutralize and you're, like, growing them up, like, you've done all that test as opposed to just letting your immune system do its thing and then p- potentially, you know, you may have this, like, non-neutralizing antibody that, um, could cause problems. But that's kind of the concern. I kn- I know that the vaccine, people that are working on vaccines are working on them. It's like they're concerned, I mean, about that and completely trying to, like, figure that all out. So-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:27

       It's such a strange virus. It d- it d- it almost seems like there's multiple viruses.

   12. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick20:32

       There are. Yeah, so I mean, there's... And it's funny that 'cause it's kind of connected to this antibody dependent enhancement, there's, there's been quite a few different, like, forms, like mutations, that have been identified, um, but two particular in that spike protein region. That's like an important region because antibodies bind there and because that's the region, like, that, you know, the virus uses to get into the cell. Um, and so, uh, there's been, there's been two, uh, major, like, um, strains that have been identified, and one of 'em... So it's in a, in the spike region and it's an aspartate to gly- glycine mutation, and basically, uh, in, in Asia and China, um, it, the, the predominate form is the, the aspartate, the, like, original, quote-unquote, form. Um, and then in Europe and also in North America, this other f- this other form, the glycine mutant, I- is predominant. And there's been studies that have shown, um, looking at, like, okay, looking in parts of Europe, different countries in Europe that have this predominant form, um, that they're basically, there's a higher mortality rate. But they didn't actually measure th- infected patients, so, you know, it's kinda like correlation. But, um, what's interesting is that there's, there's actually been a genetic link to this mu- this mutant. So, um, there's studies, there's been some large-scale degentics- genetic studies that have found that Asians, about 20% of Asians have a, a, a basically a l- a se- um, a nucleotide change in a ge- in a gene that encodes for a protease that's involved in this, you know, basically in allowing this virus to get into the cell, but that basically prevents them from having this mut- mutant that's predominant in Europe and also in New York, um, and in North America in general. Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:12

       That's interesting because my friend, Michael, who got it, his mom who got it, who's in her 70s, is Asian, and she-

   14. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick22:19

       That is-

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:20

       She kicked it in a day.

   16. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick22:21

       That is interesting. So there's something... So there, there... I wonder if she has that SNP. So we, w- we, we're, uh, our genetic report that we have, like, we- we've got one that's, like, a new viral report, it's a free one, where we're kind of, like, putting some of these interesting SNPs, which don't mean anything. I mean, like, you know, it's just information that, you know, is interesting. There's a lot of researchers out there trying to, like, figure out if genetics is involved in this. But the thing that's so interesting about that mutation is that, um, the, it's in that spike region and it's where the antibody binds and peop- and there's a, there's like a theory going around because that specific region, it's been shown in SARS-CoV-1 to cause antibody dependent enhancement. So there's a theory that potentially that mutation is causing peoples' immune system to hyper-activate and basically become more active and it can be, lead to a more severe COVID-19 illness. That's not been shown. Like, it's not been shown at all. So, um, but it's interesting, right? It's interesting how in Asia and China particularly, I mean, about 1% of the population, it's like less than 1% has the other mutation. The m- the glycine mutation, that's in New York, it's in, um, you know, in, in most of the United States, but, um, that, that in- less than 1% of the population in China has that form.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       It's so weird. A- and Japan has a very low mortality rate, correct?

   18. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick23:37

       Yeah. They do. Um, I know that that, the, I was mentioning that TB vaccine, that's one thing that they're investigating. I mean, there's all sorts of differences in handling the whole, you know, from the beginning, just how you, how you handle-

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:51

       Mm-hmm.

   20. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick23:51

       ... the virus. I mean, I, like, there's, there's too many factors to, like, say one thing, but, you know, there's, there's lots of, there's lots of possibilities and I think that, that, I think that eventually there's gonna be therapeutics that are, um, identified, you know, that m- multiple ones maybe, and I, I think vitamin D is gonna potentially play a role there. Um, but I mean, just like, things like remdesivir and, you know, monoclonal antibodies and then you eventually, like, uh, you know, a vaccine will, you know, eventually, you know, be, be available. But I think until that ti- uh, until that point, I do think that things will be identified that just k- kind of help us, like...... deal with this, like, better, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:33

       (laughs) What is th- going on with blood types? W- One of the things we talked about earlier, y- you asked my blood type, and I, I said, "O positive."

   22. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick24:39

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       Now, why, why is O positive better?

   24. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick24:41

       Well... There's, um, there's been some data... And this was also with- s- identified with SARS-CoV-1, um, that people with type O blood, they, um, they make antibodies. They make type A antibodies, whereas people with type A blood, um, they make, um, antibodies against... like, they make an- a- against the B antigen. And so, um, the type A antibodies were identified. So, there's been studies looking at people with type O blood or type, um, type A blood, and also type B. In type O blood, there's, like, less, less frequency of getting COVID-19. So, um, as, as opposed to having a severe form, it's just, like, you're less likely to contract it, even.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:26

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick25:27

       Um, and it's thought because the type A antibodies that people with type O blood make, uh, neutralize the... They basically bind to that region, that spike region, and neutralize the antibody and prevent it from, the virus from entering the cell. So, that's... At least, that was the mechanism that was shown with SARS-CoV-1. So, it's thought, "Oh, well, the same... We're seeing the same, um, you know, pattern, where people with type O are protected from SARS-CoV-2, possibly that's, that's also why." But another really interesting thing is that people with type O blood, you've... We were also talking about these, like, blood clots. And like, I mean, there's all kinds of crazy things you read. I mean, I'm reading all these publications. It's just... And then the other thing is all these publications are being uploaded on, you know, before they're peer-reviewed, and I mean, some of them are just a mess.

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:14

       Yeah.

   28. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick26:14

       And it's just... Anyways, but you know, you kinda just take it with a grain of salt. Um, where these clots are like, you know, there's clots in people that are healthy and young, certainly people that have severe cases, people like older people, people that are, um, preexisting conditions and stuff. And, um, the type O blood, people have lower levels of this von Willebrand factor, which basically is involved in clotting. And it's been shown that that von Willebrand factor also, um, is inv- like, is higher, it's higher in people with SARS-CoV-2. It was shown also to be that with SARS-CoV-1. And it's involved with clotting, so having lower levels may somehow even help protect against. That's a theory. It hasn't been shown. But, uh, what is known is that people with type O blood are, are less susceptible to contracting, um, COVID-19. That's, that's definitely known. Um, but I mean, I think there's so many things. There's just... There's so many factors that-

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:15

       A lot of data that needs to be parsed out, right?

   30. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick27:17

       For sure. I mean, a lot of data that needs to be parsed out, a lot of data that needs to be generated. (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Whoa. …

   1. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick30:00

      had like an 8%, or were eight-fold, eight times less likely to have a severe form of COVID-19. And if they had... And they were 20 times less likely to have critical, like, criti- critical, um, form of COVID-19.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Whoa.

   3. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick30:14

      Um, in the f- in the... So, that was the Philippines. In the, Indonesia was a really interesting study where, like, they measured vitamin D, and this was measured in the patients. There's been some vitamin D studies also where they're, like, looking at, you know, countries that have been affected the worst, and they all, like, have low vitamin D, and it's like, okay. Well, anyways, that's correlation, but... Well, so is this, but, um, a little, it's a little stronger data. The, in the, in Indonesia, um-... patients that died, 90, ab- almost 100%, it was like 98 point something percent of patients that died with COVID-19 were vitamin D deficient. 4% of patients that died from COVID-19 were vitamin D suffici- or s- 4%, only 4%, uh, were fi- vitamin D sufficient. So basically, they were all vitamin D deficient, all the ones that are dying.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:03

      Whoa.

   5. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:04

      Crazy, right? And like New Orleans had some craz- crazy number.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:06

      And what would be the mechanism that would cause that?

   7. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:08

      So, I think there's... All right. Can we t- can we get into vitamin D? (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:11

      Please do.

   9. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:12

      It's a big... I really think-

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:13

       Well, because of you, I take, uh, 5,000 IUs a day.

   11. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:18

       Awesome. Um, right now I'm taking 5,000 IUs a day.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Mm.

   13. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:21

       Um, you know, 70% of the US population has insufficient vitamin D levels, which is considered less than, um, blood levels less than 30 milligrams, nanograms per milliliter. Um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:32

       And this is something that you c- your body can generate naturally if you're exposed to the sun on a daily basis.

   15. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:36

       Yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       That's the best way to get it.

   17. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:38

       It is. But the problem is, is that we don't go outside anymore. And, you know-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:44

       Especially now-

   19. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:44

       Yeah. Especially now.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       ... with this lockdown.

   21. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:46

       Exactly.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Yeah.

   23. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:47

       Uh, now more than ever. But even-

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:48

       And what a terrible recipe, right? Y- y- vitamin D deficiency is what makes it worse. And then you're staying inside, so you're not getting any vitamin D.

   25. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:55

       Yeah. You're becoming even more deficient. You know?

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:58

       Yeah.

   27. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick31:58

       Like thir- like someone, like 28% of the US population is actually deficient, like less than 20 nanograms per mil. You know, like that's defined deficiency. So, there's a lot of people in the United States. Um, as you mentioned, you make it from the sun, so particularly UVB radiation. There's a reason why I wanna talk about this. Uh, you make it from UVB radiation exposure. You know, basically your s- it's made in the skin. And, um, but, you know, there's certain times of the year, depending on where you live, in a more northern latitude where that UVB isn't even hitting the atmosphere-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Right.

   29. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick32:27

       ... so you're not making vitamin D. Also, if you have darker skin, melanin protects you, like the whole... You know, people with darker skin, people, um, from maybe Africa or India or South Asia, they're more equatorial regions. They're closer, you know, closer to, to, to, to the equator, and there's more UVB radiation throughout the year. And so, as a protective mechanism to not get burned, you have melanin, which protects you, right? The problem is, is that melanin also blocks your, your ability to produce vitamin D. But if you're out in the sun all the time, you know, in a place where you're getting UVB radiation, it's not a problem.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       Well, this is the very reason why people in places like Scotland and England have such pale skin-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Whoa. …

   1. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick45:00

      lung injury and then you give them vitamin D... So the lung injury itself also causes the ACE2 receptor to decrease. And it... So i- it's like this vicious cycle of, like, making the damage worse. But if you give mice vitamin D before that happens, the ACE2 receptor increases and it protects them from the lung injury.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      Whoa.

   3. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick45:19

      But you give the vitamin D to control mice that don't have the lung injury, it doesn't do anything to the ACE2 receptor levels. So it's not like full stop... It's not like... You know, drugs, the way drugs are designed is they, like, they target a certain molecule and they, boom, they, like, do their thing. They either increase it or decrease it. A lot of times with, like, hormones, you know, vitamins, things like that, they're h- they- they maintain homeostasis.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:42

      Mm.

   5. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick45:42

      You know what I mean?

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:43

      Yes.

   7. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick45:43

      Like, so when- when shit goes wrong, they fix it. They're not just like, boom, full stop, gonna, like, increase something when everything's normal.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:52

      Mm.

   9. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick45:52

      So... And that's important because there have been some concern about taking vitamin D increasing the ACE2 receptor. And there's another study that was with hypertensive rats where the hypertension caused ACE2 to go down and that, like, makes lung... It makes all sorts of problems. It also causes, like, kidney problems and all sorts of things, right? Um, but- but the vitamin D increased the ACE2, but only in the hypertensive rats, not in the normal control rats again.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:16

       Oh.

   11. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick46:17

       So, you know... And then there was another study that was, like, some other messed up diabetic animal model where the vitamin D actually, um, didn't increase the ACE2 receptor, but it increased what's called soluble ACE2, which is in, like... It's in the periphery, and that actually potentially could bind SARS-CoV-2 virus and prevent it from... It's like sequestering it, preventing it from entering the cell. That's actually being explored as a potential therapeutic. So, m- the bottom line here is that sometimes you'll hear this ACE2 receptor and that's how the virus gets in and it's like, "I don't want that. I don't want... I want less of that 'cause that's how the virus gets in." But, like... Like, biology is always way more complicated than just a simple taking it out of a big p- picture, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick47:00

       You know, so, like, the ACE2 receptor, the ACE2 is part of the renin-angiotensin sym- system. It plays a huge role in inflammation. It's also like when you- when you decrease ACE2 all these signal- signaling cascades happen and it- it's like... ACE2 is important for producing proinflammatory cytokines at the end of the day without getting into all the stuff, you know, specifics. So, it causes massive inflammation to have a decrease. It- it- it basically causes acute lung injury. It exacerbates it. I mean, it's crazy. So, um, I really... I just... I- I really... Could you imagine if vitamin D really did help? Like, if it... If there was something that could be given along with the other stuff, remdesivir, whatever, whatever it's gonna be, the stuff that we identify, but like, vitamin D is so- so cheap, it's so easy, and so many people are deficient and insufficient, you know? Like... So yes, as you mentioned, there is... You know, you don't wanna take too much vitamin D. You don't wanna, like, you know, overdose on it. But I think in the short term, uh, you know, particularly, like, in the short term and- and particularly in patient, par- people that have already been infected, you know, it may be wise to- to- to try giving your patient, like, if you're a physician, um, you know, dealing with this, it may- it may be wise to try and- and see their vitamin D levels and perhaps give them some, you know?

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:18

       Is this being explored pub- I mean, is this something that people are talking about publicly? 'Cause I... All I'm hearing is drugs and possible drug remedies, potential vaccine that they're working on in the future. I'm not hearing anything about methods, nutrition that boosts your immune system. This is one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you right now.

   15. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick48:39

       Yeah, let's definitely talk more. There are... Yes, it is. So there are clinical studies, unfortunately not a ton of them in the United States, that are looking, randomized control trials, looking at vitamin D, the effects of vitamin D on already, you know, patients with COVID-19. Which what would be great is, like, giving them to, like, first responders or healthcare workers-

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       Yes.

   17. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick48:59

       ... and seeing, like, how does it...... how does it... what does- what role does it play in prevention? 'Cause that's really the easiest thing, right? Um, I'm involved... a- a friend of mine, Dr. Eric Gordon, he, he's, um, put together... so I kind of, with, um, his help, I've helped him design a- a- a open arm trial, very small, 40 patients, where we're, um... where he is going to be giving them 50,000 IUs every five days of vitamin D. So it's like a weekly dose, um, because a lot of times these people are severely deficient and so you wanna give them a higher dose, you know. And, and for, you know, doing... doing 50,000 IUs weekly isn't, you know, something that's necessarily gonna be toxic or anything like that. Um, and then we're gonna... you know, we're doing some other things, vitamin C, um, three grams, uh, three times a day, and then, um, vitamin B1. We could talk about that, thiamine as well. But, so yeah, there are... I think there's, like, open label trial-... open label trials are just kind of a start. It's like if you, if you see something... plus we're doing, like, kitchen sink, right? We got this, this, and this, and this. So I think vitamin D really is the... is the star, you know? I think that e- e-... potentially, you know, I think it really should be explored. Um, I think it has huge potential. It has to be shown. Like, this isn't something that people can just, you know, take it home and think, "I'm protected." Like, that is not the case. We don't know that. You know, there has... there's no data f- showing that. But I think it has huge potential, um, you know? So-

   18. JRJoe Rogan50:20

       How would one do a randomized control study on vitamin D in people that have COVID-19?

   19. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:27

       So-

   20. JRJoe Rogan50:27

       Like, it seems like-

   21. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:28

       Well, they're gonna do it-

   22. JRJoe Rogan50:29

       ... it would be a real issue.

   23. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:29

       ... in addition to... they're gonna-

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:30

       Right.

   25. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:30

       ... in addition to standard of care.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:32

       Okay.

   27. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:32

       So it's basically whatever the standard of care is, and that's, that's what, you know, is happening at the, the Hunterdon Hospital in, in New Jersey. But-

   28. JRJoe Rogan50:38

       But as you said, it seems like what's really critical is getting it to people before they get it.

   29. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick50:43

       Yeah. I would love to see that (laughs) study done.

   30. JRJoe Rogan50:46

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:14:22

   Oh, that's the episode…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      vitamin C, oral...

   2. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:01

      Oh, that's the episode page.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:02

      ... intravenous-

   4. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:02

      That's the podcast, but scroll back up to the, to the main home... Yeah. So, Topics. Click on Topics. There we go. Vitamin C is somewhere at the bottom. There we go.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

      All right.

   6. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:14

      Okay. Sc- there's a... just, just look for the figure. Scroll, you'll see it. Okay, great, there it goes. Is there any way you can make that... Yeah. The bottom one is the one I wanna see. That's the intravenous. Okay, so there we go. So, this is intravenous dose. So, you can... I... T- you wanna get at least 10 grams. So, you can see 10 grams is like...

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

      And 10 grams is 10,000 milligrams?

   8. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:36

      Yeah. 10 grams is 10,000 milligrams. So that's, that's about 10 grams. That's what I've done in the past. Um, but what's interesting is when you get above... Most-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

      Oh, you... Got us with the pop-up.

   10. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:47

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

       (laughs)

   12. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:48

       Newsletter... My newsletter is great. I mean, I, I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       I'm sure it's amazing.

   14. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:50

       I do lots of announcements there as the... Like...

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

       (laughs)

   16. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:52

       I give commentary, you know, stuff I'm scared to, like, publish on the website, 'cause I don't wanna hear all the crap.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       Hmm.

   18. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:00:56

       But anyways, um...

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

       Like, what are you scared of hearing about-

   20. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:01:00

       Oh. Oh, no, I'm just, like... You know, there's... I'm not scared. I guess that's the wrong word. I just don't wanna deal with it. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

       Right.

   22. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:01:06

       You know? That's, that's the thing. I just don't wanna deal with it. Um, the intravenous vitamin C is a completely different game because it literally generates hydrogen peroxide. Like, when you get, like, doses above... You know, when you start to max out over that, you know, plasma level, um, 220 micromole, the, the vitamin C itself... So, vitamin C kind of cycles between being, uh, oxidized and reduced. It's called dehydroascorbic acid, dehydroascorbate, and then ascorbic acid or ascorbate. Dehydroascorbic acid is the oxidized form, and, um, hydrogen peroxide's generated, which is really interesting because it's one of the mechanisms by which, um, at least it's thought, that intravenous vitamin C kills cancer cells. Um, it also has been shown to, like, um, kill viruses and stuff in, in a variety of different studies. But that's interesting because your neutrophils... Your neutrophils generate hydrogen peroxide, so the, the intravenous vitamin C is, like, generating hydrogen peroxide. At the same time, it's also, um, acting as an antioxidant for, uh, for your own neutrophils, and that's been shown to people, um, y- you know, in clinical studies. But also, it's been shown that the hydrogen peroxide does not damage the normal cells, like normal h-... In northe-... Normal, healthy people, um, given intravenous vitamin C, it's generating hydrogen peroxide, but there's no oxidative damage happening in people's, like, lymphocytes and stuff. So, it's not, like, damaging your own cells.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       And w-... How often would you do this if you could, uh, have your-

   24. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:02:34

       Well, in study, the studies have... You know, it depends on, on what virus you're looking at, like, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       But I mean, for you personally, for just, for health benefits-

   26. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:02:41

       I, I was-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:41

       ... how often would you take it? If you just had access to it every day, how often would you take intravenous vitamin C?

   28. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:02:47

       I... You know, it's something... Because if you, if you look at the graph, it's kind of a trans-... Intravenous vitamin C is transient, so it's like, it's having... It's not something that, like, necessarily needs to be done all the time. It's something... Like, I was, I was interested in doing it. Like, my mom was... My mom had just gotten sick and, um, like, common cold, you know, she had, like, a runny nose and stuff. And so, I took her. We went to get the, the IV C, and they did... It was 10, 10 grams that we did. And, um, I took it 'cause I was like, "Well, she's sick, and I've been around her and, like, I don't wanna get sick." So, you know, I thought, "Why not try it?" And, um, you know, so, so... You know, the intravenous vitamin C maybe, maybe there's, like, a, a reason to do it, but it's not something that I'm, I'm certain that p- people need to do on a, a daily basis. It's different than, like, vitamin C, you know, normal vitamin C, you do need. You need to get it from your diet. It's important. Like, it's important for normal immune cells, um, your normal immune function. That's been shown. Um, but I, but I don't-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:44

       Do you believe it's... I'm sorry to interrupt you, but do you believe it's important to take it orally as well as IV?

   30. RPDr. Rhonda Patrick1:03:49

       Hmm. Well, the IV is, is... It, it's, it's totally... The IV is totally different. Um, the IV's really being used as a therapeutic treatment. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's a therapeutic treatment more, you know, the, the, the IV C, where it's been shown to help with, like, for example, it's, it's... At least in S-... The hospitals in San Diego, it's routinely used for sepsis. Um, like, friends of mine, you know, use it, use it for treating sepsis. And there's been large randomized control trials showing that it dramatically reduces mortality with sepsis. Um, so, like, that's a... And, and especially in combination with thiamine as well. Like, huge differences in, in mortal-... People dying from sepsis, which is obviously very relevant now, but it hasn't been shown. I mean, there are clinical studies that are, are ongoing right now, some in China and some in the United States, looking at IV C potentially to help treat, um, COVID-19-associated pneumonia. You know, the... It'll be interesting to see the data from those trials. Whether or not there's gonna be an effect, it's not known. But, um, the fact that it has been shown to, to treat... to improve sepsis outcomes in, in multiple, you know, studies. It's also been shown... Obviously, cancer is, like, a big one. Like, that was like... You know, Linus Pauling was, like, deemed a nut. Like, you know, the Nobel Prize-winning chemist who basically is the vitamin C guy. Like, he, back in the '70s, was like, championing intravenous vitamin C for, for cancer patients 'cause he was claiming it was like, you know, curing them, quote-unquote, "curing" them. I-... It wasn't quite doing that, but it was, like, improving the outcomes of cancer patients. And there's all these studies from the Mayo Clinic came out, and they were like, "Nope, doesn't do that." Turned out they were using oral vitamin C, which is like comparing apples to oranges.

Episode duration: 3:04:24