Joe Rogan Experience #1478 - Joel Salatin

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Good to see you…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Good to see you again, sir.

   2. JSJoel Salatin0:03

      Good to be here-

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Thanks.

   4. JSJoel Salatin0:04

      ... thanks for coming back, man. I really appreciate it. This is a perfect time to talk to someone like you about, uh, our food. Um, we're in a very strange crisis now, and you just keep hearing time and time again in the news, uh, how much ranchers and farmers and people are really suffering right now. And how much folks who don't have anything to do with that are now forcing... They're, they're being forced to understand the, the importance of the food supply chain and ranchers and farmers, and all the stuff that we've taken for granted for quite a long time now. Well, they sure have, and what's interesting about it is the juxtaposition between the... I'll just call it the industrial, the, the more, you know, uh, commercial industrial food sector, versus the sector that I'm in, which is a, um, a, a local-centric, you know, uh, uh, direct, direct sale branded product, you know, directly from the farm. Uh, the pandemic is the best marketing strategy we've ever seen.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:01

      (laughs)

   6. JSJoel Salatin1:01

      We're having, we're having the best season we've ever had, and, um, a- a- a- and, and, and the same thing was with farmers around the country as I talked to them. Uh, everyone that's like us, that, that, that did not go into the supermarket system basically-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JSJoel Salatin1:16

      ... that, that's selling in their community, in their, in their region, regionally, uh, directly off the farm, having the best, best year we've ever had. It is the, it is the, um, it's the industrial, uh, mega-system that's cracking. And so for the first time, we're hearing talk of, "Well, maybe, maybe we need to add, uh, resiliency to efficiency." (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:43

      Hmm.

   10. JSJoel Salatin1:43

       And so, um, so yeah. The, the, the system that's cracking, there's plenty of food. I mean, there's plenty of food on farms being r- produced. Uh, but of course as you know, milk is being dumped. Pigs are being euthanized. The problem is not at the farm level. The problem is in the chain of custody between the farmer and the consumer, and primarily in the, in the, uh, the large-scale processing, uh, situation.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       Yeah, these large meat processing places, uh, they, they've, they've been hit hard by the coronavirus.

   12. JSJoel Salatin2:16

       Th- they have been. I mean, if you think about it right now, Joe, probably, uh, in, in the, um, in the United States, the only places right now where every day thousands of people, um, come together in crowded conditions are these big meat processing plants. I mean, the offices are closed. The theaters are closed. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JSJoel Salatin2:38

       The convention centers are closed. Uh, a- and so the only place where people are coming shoulder to shoulder, thousands every day, are in these mega processing facilities. Uh, Therese and I, my wife, actually co-own a very small, um, abattoir, a slaughterhouse, uh, community slaughterhouse. We have 20 employees. And, um, and the, the differences, th- the difference in the vulnerability, in, in the exposure and risk factor between our little 20-person facility where we do, you know, maybe, um, 50 to 70 beeves a week, 100 hogs, versus these mega-plants that have, you know-

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:18

       When you say beeves? What, what-

   16. JSJoel Salatin3:20

       Beeves, like beef.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:21

       What is that?

   18. JSJoel Salatin3:21

       Beef. Um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       Oh, beeves.

   20. JSJoel Salatin3:23

       Yeah. Well-

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Oh, I thought you said beeves. I was like, "What is it?"

   22. JSJoel Salatin3:25

       There's no such word, there's no such word as beeves. It's beeves, B-E-E-V-E-S.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       Oh, okay.

   24. JSJoel Salatin3:30

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       That is what you're saying. Okay.

   26. JSJoel Salatin3:32

       Yeah, beeves. Um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:33

       Beeves. Have you heard that before, Jamie? (laughs) No. Okay.

   28. JSJoel Salatin3:35

       S- so the plural of beef is not beeves. It's beeves.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:39

       Oh, all right.

   30. JSJoel Salatin3:39

       Interesting, right? Uh-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   You're welcome. …

   1. JSJoel Salatin15:00

      bugs. My immune system needs your bugs. Your immune system needs my bugs. Um, and, and so, uh, now, does that mean we all run into the nursing homes, you know, and take vulnerable... No, no, no. Y- y- There, I mean, there are, there are certainly people that are very vulnerable, so we wanna... Careful there. All right. I- I- I get that. But for the, for the rest of us that are generally healthy, um, going about our daily stuff, I mean, goodness, worry, worry affects your, uh, cortisol limits almost more than anything. Worry. You know, I got on a plane yesterday to come out here and, um, thanks for the nice business class ticket, by the way.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      You're welcome.

   3. JSJoel Salatin15:44

      And, a- a- and the lady sitting in front of me, uh, so we're in business class. I'm sitting, um... So there's four... There's an aisle and there's two seats on either side. And so I sit down. There's nobody next to me. I'm in... Next to the window. A lady in front of me is on the aisle, so she's a little bit diagonal from me in front. A guy sits ac- across from her on the aisle, on the opposing aisle, and she asks him to move over to the window. And, and I'm just watching this play out. Of course, I'm trying to, you know, keep my glasses from fogging up with my mask in my face, you know? And I'm thinking, "That... She's worried. She's fearful." What have we done to ourselves as a culture that every single person we come in contact with is a... Might be my killer? You know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:41

      Yeah.

   5. JSJoel Salatin16:41

      I mean, that's a, that's a horrible... And- and what does that do to our cortisol? Boom, you know? And, and suddenly our immune system is whatever, compromised, because we're living in this, in this fear all the time.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:54

      I think one of the things that you said, though, when you said most of us that are healthy, I think that's not really true. I think most of us are not healthy.

   7. JSJoel Salatin17:02

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:02

      And I think that's one of the things we're finding out from this crisis.

   9. JSJoel Salatin17:05

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Is that when you talk about protecting vulnerable people, there's a lot of us that are vulnerable. Maybe not you or me.

   11. JSJoel Salatin17:13

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       But a large number of people that are overweight, that eat poor food, and that don't take care of themselves.

   13. JSJoel Salatin17:19

       Yes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       And those people are particularly vulnerable. And so they're right to be afraid, but they're wrong to think that this... The only way to solve this is to make sure that you stay away from everybody. The way to solve this is to stop eating shit and become a healthy person. It's-

   15. JSJoel Salatin17:37

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       While you're alive, there's always a... There's a moment, a chance to be healthier while you're alive. If you're alive- (laughs) ... and you're not terribly ill and dying, then you could start drinking water, stop drinking soda, stop eating chips, start eating fruits and vegetables, start eating lean meats, healthy foods. Not even lean meats. Eat, eat a good rib eye steak.

   17. JSJoel Salatin17:58

       Pastured-

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:59

       Yeah.

   19. JSJoel Salatin17:59

       ... pastured meats.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Yeah.

   21. JSJoel Salatin18:00

       Pastured meats.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Eat food.

   23. JSJoel Salatin18:01

       But yeah, you're right. Well, uh, you know-... whenever I watch a newscast and watch the, you know, the daily, uh, like, you know, coronavirus briefing-

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JSJoel Salatin18:09

       ... from the White House, right? And you've got all these experts standing around, and they're... And, and everybody's standing there waiting for this magic, um, vaccine.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:17

       Right.

   27. JSJoel Salatin18:17

       And, (clears throat) of course, you know, the CDC gets, uh, $4.6 billion a year selling vaccines. They have, whatever, 20, uh, patent vaccines. Um, and, and so really, the CDC is, is a very vested interest in trying to develop a vaccine. There, there's, there's a lot of money in sickness. Yeah, there's a lot of money in sickness. And so, so, you know, we didn't get this, this, uh, coronavirus because of a lack of vaccine. (laughs) We got this coronavirus because something in this, in this beautiful life bath that I described was out of whack. Uh, that's, that... Now, you know, we can, we can start discussing where it possibly came from. I think right now that's conjecture. Uh, I mean, I think we, we do know that it came out of Wuhan, but, but, you know-

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:11

       Right.

   29. JSJoel Salatin19:11

       ... just how we... I mean, we're not sure. But, but the fact is, that there was an imbalance in life. And just like in your... in, in our lifetime, Joe, we've learned, uh, to say words that when I was a child, did you ever hear the term, you know, salmonella, E. coli, Campylobacter, um, uh, bovine spongiform encephalopathy, uh, uh, food allergy even? I mean, how many kids in elementary school did you know that had food allergies?

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       None.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Sure, sure. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      right? A lot of these factory farms, they don't require too many people to be working there.

   2. JSJoel Salatin30:03

      Sure, sure.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      You would require much more people get ... you'd have to manage these animals. You'd have to do it sort of along the lines of the way-

   4. JSJoel Salatin30:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      ... that you do.

   6. JSJoel Salatin30:10

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      How many more people do you think would be involved in a, a large-scale farm?

   8. JSJoel Salatin30:13

      Oh, well, uh, lots, lots of people.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Lots more.

   10. JSJoel Salatin30:15

       I, I, I don't have a, I don't have a number there, but I can tell you that, um, that prices would, uh-... you know, food prices might go up to what they were 30 years ago.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       And it also ... Would it be fair to say that food prices might go to where they should be? Like a- a cheeseburger really shouldn't be 99 cents.

   12. JSJoel Salatin30:35

       No, no. A- absolutely. Uh, the, the ... As, as you're very familiar with the argument of the externalized cost.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:41

       Yeah.

   14. JSJoel Salatin30:41

       They don't, they don't get captured. What's, what's the cost, you know ... Right now, 50% of the cases of diarrhea in the US are caused by, uh, foodborne, you know, bacteria. Well, what's a, what's a case of diarrhea worth? You know, I mean, if we start-

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Right.

   16. JSJoel Salatin30:53

       (laughs) If you, if you start ... (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       Yeah. That's a good point. Very good point.

   18. JSJoel Salatin30:56

       If you start putting dollars on these externalized costs, you know, a r- ... The, the dead zone in the, in the Gulf of Mexico, the fact that we have, you know, squ- ... Uh, uh, uh, hundreds of square miles that don't grow shrimp anymore.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:08

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JSJoel Salatin31:08

       You know, because it's, it's toxic from the runoff from the Mississippi, uh, from, from chemical farming. So there's, there's a lot of these externalized costs. And not only that, but if this actually became norma- ... Uh, the, the, whatever, the new way, the new orthodoxy, uh, there would be definitely economies of scale that we don't have right now. Um, I mean, I'll just give you one example that probably nobody would think of. So we play, we pay workman's compensation at our farm. So how do you determine the exposure level, the risk factor of a poultry worker? I mean, think about if, if you have a Tyson chicken farm and you hire a, a, a, a, an employee to be in the chicken house, think about his workman's comp risk. I mean, there's fecal particulate all day long that he's breathing. Uh, you've got augers, chains, feed bins, electrical connections, dust. I mean, it's, it's a very ... Um, it's a high-risk situation. For us, a poultry worker goes (laughs) out in the field and moves some, moves some chickens in a field. There's no fecal particulate, there's no dust, there's no, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, it ... There's no augers, there's no, um, uh, whatever, spinning fans, uh, vent shafts. You know, there's none of this. A- and so, so part of the cost, the reason that our chicken is more expensive than what's in the store, is not only externalized cost, but it is, it is unrecognized, unrecognized savings that we offer that can't be captured in a, a square peg in a round hole.

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:57

       Mm. I see what you're saying. Yeah. The l- the overall big picture of health for you, health for the food. How much is that worth? Yeah.

   22. JSJoel Salatin33:06

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:06

       That's interesting that we're not really taking into consideration these secondary costs that come about from doing it the wrong way.

   24. JSJoel Salatin33:12

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Yeah.

   26. JSJoel Salatin33:13

       We're not. We're not. Uh, I mean, there's, there's a lot of those ... (sighs) Uh, you, you can ... Much of, much of our increased cost has nothing to do with actual production cost. It's, it's the non-scalable regulatory overheads. Uh, a- and, and this, and this, of course, is why we don't have more community small-scale abattoirs around the country. Uh, is not because there's not a demand for them, it's because the, the, the paperwork, the HACCP plans, hazardous analysis critical control point plans, and the paperwork to be able to launch a business like this require the ... are so high that the, the ... both time and money are so high that it's very difficult to launch a small business.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       Mm.

   28. JSJoel Salatin34:09

       You know, 'cause you can't spread the overhead, uh, of capitalization over-

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:13

       Is there a solution to that?

   30. JSJoel Salatin34:14

       ... uh, uh, uh, nothing.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JSJoel Salatin45:00

      the manure whether the chicken is outside or inside. The difference is, when you come and see our operation, you see all the land.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:08

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JSJoel Salatin45:09

      When you see the, the factory farm, you don't see any of the land.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      But isn't it possible that these factory farms are set up where the farms where the animals are raised are completely separate, it's a separate business from the farms where the soybeans and the corn are raised-

   5. JSJoel Salatin45:24

      Oh, yeah. Well, ours is too.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:25

      ... and it's not on the same property?

   7. JSJoel Salatin45:26

      No, it's... Ours is too.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:26

      Right.

   9. JSJoel Salatin45:27

      We, we, we buy, we buy our grain from neighbors. Absolutely. We, we-

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:29

       Right. But if they had to grow these animals and grow that food, would they have enough land to do everything together in the same farm?

   11. JSJoel Salatin45:38

       But there's no need to do it on the same farm. I'm a big believer in mutual, mutual interdependence.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JSJoel Salatin45:44

       Uh, not complete independence. We don't have any intention to grow our own grain. We, we don't have the soils for it, we don't have the equipment for it, we don't have the skillset for it. So we buy from neighbors who do GMO-free, non-genetically modified, GMO-free grain, uh, and, and we give them more than they would on a commodity, on a commodity scale. Um, and so they love us because we're giving them more per bushel and they have a nice secure buyer and they're local, they're close. Uh, you know, we're not getting it from, you know, uh, foreign countries and it's all close. So what happens is, in, in the kind of this, uh, situation I'm describing, instead of having a fundamentally segregated food system, you have a fundamentally integrated food system.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:30

       I see what you're saying. So you have a-

   15. JSJoel Salatin46:32

       That's, that's what happens.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:32

       ... strong relationship-

   17. JSJoel Salatin46:33

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       ... with the people growing that grain.

   19. JSJoel Salatin46:34

       So, so for example, I mean, you started the discussion with, "Can Los Angel- you know, is there enough land to feed Los Angeles?" You know, the, the... uh, and, and we, and we could discuss whether there's... whether Los Angeles should be as big as it is. I mean, that, that's a valid discussion, but-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       It's a very valid discussion.

   21. JSJoel Salatin46:47

       But, but, but l- l- uh, we, we can go there, but first let me just say that if California, for example, did not export, I don't know what the percentage is, but it's huge, you know, almonds, uh, uh, all over the world. If California's centered on feeding California, there's absolutely enough here to feed California. Okay? I mean, Iowa, Iowa imports 90%. Iowa is probably the most fertile place in the world and they only eat... Only, only 10% of the food consumed in Iowa is grown in Iowa and processed in Iowa.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:29

       That's pretty crazy.

   23. JSJoel Salatin47:30

       It is crazy. Hawaii, only 5%. 95% comes from off... Hawaii, I mean, they've got ranches, they've got... I mean, why would you have to import stuff if you can grow pineapples (laughs) pineapples and, uh, you know, macadamia nuts in your backyard? Come on, you know? Um, so there's a, there's a huge, uh, there's a huge disconnect. I mean, um, the, the, the, the pro- the... A- and this is one of the reasons that we're having this, I think, this, this blowback from nature, is that instead of having a fundamentally integrated system, I mean, think of how, uh, in Switzerland, you know, they, they take the cows up to the mountain pastures, they milk, and the milk flows down the, the... and they make cheese up there. The whey from the cheese goes into the-... into the pigs. The pigs eat the whey. And so, instead of transporting milk to a centralized cheesemaker and pigs to a centralized processor, they're actually making the cheese on site. So all they've got to actually transport is cheese and, um, and, and pork. So they slaughter, they slaughter, you know, contiguous, near, nearby, not on the same farm necessarily, but, but nearby, so you don't have all this transportation. What you have is a fundamentally decentralized, we could even say democratized ... Can we say food distance?

   24. JRJoe Rogan48:59

       Mm.

   25. JSJoel Salatin49:00

       Fo- fo- food distancing? Um, th- that creates resiliency in the system, so instead of being tied to these 100 or 150 mega processing facilities, we're decentralized throughout the land base.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:16

       W- how much m- more money do you think it would cost for food? We, we kinda touched on this earlier.

   27. JSJoel Salatin49:21

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:21

       But if, if you're dealing with this more natural-

   29. JSJoel Salatin49:24

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:25

       ... based system and it's more complex, it's gonna require more people and it's gonna require complete restructuring of the system that's currently in place.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JSJoel Salatin1:00:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Yeah.

   3. JSJoel Salatin1:00:00

      Let it go. And I just think, I just think that those simple, like, you know, six or seven immune abil- g- g- get exercise. Go, get outside. R- run around in the sun, all right? Um, those kinds of things, i- i- if we ha- I mean... You know, Michelle Obama had the Let's Move campaign. It was a great campaign. She was e- she was right on, okay?

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JSJoel Salatin1:00:23

      And I'm not trying to be political, I'm just... She was, she was right. And, uh, now-... uh, I mean, my, uh, my driver that picked me up from the airport last night, you know, he said, he said, um, (smacks lips) "Uh, you know, this is my first," (laughs) he said, "This is my first job for a month." And, um, he said, "All I've been doing is, uh, inside the house watching Netflix." Well, that's not gonna build your immune system. I- he needs to get out and...

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

      Go stick his hand in poop.

   7. JSJoel Salatin1:00:57

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

      Don't you think that the immu- I mean, I don't know if this is true, but I would imagine-

   9. JSJoel Salatin1:01:01

      (coughs) .

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       ... that the immune system is like your cardiovascular system. It needs a workout.

   11. JSJoel Salatin1:01:05

       It does. And, and many people believe this. In fact, there's an entire, uh, school of thought, the, um, you know, th- this hyperallergenic thing, uh, where a lot of the allergies we have today are because we're so sterile. Uh, I mean, this was part of the, part of the kind of unspoken part of, um, (smacks lips) the book Guns, Germs, and Steel.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       Yeah.

   13. JSJoel Salatin1:01:29

       You know, that was a fascinating book, and it talked about the ascendancy of the Europeans who kept livestock in their house.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       Mm.

   15. JSJoel Salatin1:01:35

       Right? And that's why they were immune to smallpox and many, all these things that were devastating to the other people that didn't have, uh, nearby livestock. And so we want our customers to come out and pet a calf, go in the brooder and pick up a chick, and hold a chicken, and, and we think that that's really, really, um... That's not just, that's not just, whatever, nostalgic.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

       I would be interested-

   17. JSJoel Salatin1:02:00

       It-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       ... to see what's gonna... I'm sorry, but what's gonna happen-

   19. JSJoel Salatin1:02:03

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:03

       ... when people do go back to normal life with these compromised immune systems from being inside all the time, whether or not just regular common cold kicks in, in a, on a larger scale?

   21. JSJoel Salatin1:02:14

       Well, there are medical doctors, I can't give you names right now, but I, I'm like you, I'm sleuthing all this, uh, different material. And, um, I can tell you there are, are numerous medical doctors who are saying that as we come out of this, we're gonna see a spate of exactly colds, flu, different things because we haven't been exercising our immune systems-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

       Yeah.

   23. JSJoel Salatin1:02:36

       ... i- i- in this soup. And in fact, um, uh, Governor Cuomo was, um... It was interesting, his reaction the other day when he got the report, the data now, there's, you know, more data's coming out every day. And one of the reports, uh, that just came out last week was that in New York, the people who continued working actually had less, um, less, uh, whatever, positives to the v- virus than the people who sheltered. Across the demographic, including frontline hospital workers. Which, you know, you look at that and you say, "Well, you know, the people who were sheltering, um, they were dwelling on it." I mean, they were watching news all day. Now, if you watch the media all day, you are, you are scared to death, okay? A- and rightly so. That's what you're feeding your mind. But if you're, if you're working, and you're building, and you're creating, and you're doing your, doing your things, sure, you might think about the virus once in a while. But I mean, literally, i- in my day, I don't think about it but a few minutes a day. It's only when I come in and turn on the news or, or look at podcasts, right, you know, that I'm, I'm besieged with... I- I'm, I'm interested in it, but I, but I'm out there busy. And, and there's something that happens, I think, psychosomatically, when you just consume... When your mind is consumed every day with, uh, with, with fear.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:04:11

       Yeah, for sure. Well, it's the media's played into it, and, and also people are hearing, they're hearing terrible stories about emergency rooms, particularly in New York City and places where it's stuffed full of people, and the hospitals are overrun, the ICUs are run- overrun. Thank goodness that that has sort of, uh, calmed down even in New York City.

   25. JSJoel Salatin1:04:29

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:29

       Cuomo basically said today that they're back to where they were when the p- pandemic exploded. So it's nice that they've sort of leveled that out. But what's gonna happen when you just let people out again? Are they gonna start getting sick like crazy again? I mean, is it gonna be another spread? There's a real worry about that, and we all worry that during this time, we haven't been encouraging people to build up their immune system.

   27. JSJoel Salatin1:04:51

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:04:51

       We haven't been encouraging them to exercise. We've just been feeding them fear.

   29. JSJoel Salatin1:04:56

       Yes, that's right, it's, it's been a, it's been a feeling of fear. And, uh, so, you know, interestingly, um, I've just, I've got a book, uh, that's actually, um... Well, having had, uh, May, uh, in whatever, uh, 10 days, uh, a new book coming out I've written with a, with a, uh, nutritionist biochemist, uh, Dr. Sena McUllough, and, um, the, the title of the book is Beyond Labels. And, uh, it's, it's a, it's a doctor and a farmer, um, lead you to a place of food empowerment. You know, when you stand in front of a, a bunch of labels and you see everything from organic certified to fair trade to, um, you know, natural, um, th- they're very confusing. They're very... A- and, and pe- what happens is when you have... When you're faced with so much, uh, choice of, of label information, you tend to just shut down. You get paralyzed. You say, "Uh, uh, forget it," you know? "I- it's too complicated. It's too, it's too difficult." And, um, so, so we've written this book, her- she from this chemistry standpoint, me from a farmer's standpoint, trying to cut through this and so people, um, can be empowered to actually, to actually make food decisions that will f- And we talk a lot about immunity, mi- feeding your microbiome, um, to build that up so that you have a diversified enough, exercised enough immune system...... that you can with- withstand this. And, um, and so I think that, I think that developing a robust immune system... Think about if that occupied your mind, "How am I going to develop an im- a robust immune system?" Just think about dwelling on that as opposed to, "Oh, no, am I gonna get it? Am I gonna get it?"

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:58

       Right.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:23:41

   Yeah. Well, I, I…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      (laughs)

   2. JSJoel Salatin1:15:00

      Yeah. Well, I, I think, I think a, a couple of things. One is that, you know, our country has never told people, when we talk about, you know, personal self-worth and your own personal affirmation, uh, in a, in a, in a climate of fear and worry, the worst thing you can do is tell lots of people, "You're not important. You're not essential." You, you...

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:24

      Right.

   4. JSJoel Salatin1:15:24

      "You know what you've been doing all your life? What you do every day? Nah, it's, it's not as..." What, what a, what a faster way to, whatever, de-affirm-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

      Yes.

   6. JSJoel Salatin1:15:34

      ... uh, uh, a person than to tell them, "You're not essential." I mean, I, I just think it's horrible. And, and now we have the, the data. And again, the, these data points, and we've all become, I think, through this, more wary of statisticians.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:48

      Yes.

   8. JSJoel Salatin1:15:48

      Uh, but, (laughs) but one that I just saw again this week was that every, every percent increase in unemployment equals 30,000 deaths in our country a- annually. Every 1% unemployment equal... Suicide, depression-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:16:03

      Yes.

   10. JSJoel Salatin1:16:03

       ... you know, whatever.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:04

       That's a really important statistic.

   12. JSJoel Salatin1:16:05

       There... Yeah, it is. One... So, so, so we've gone now from, you know, that, that white hot 3.5% unemployment to now, what, 18.5? That's 15, 15%. I'm frankly, I'm frankly actually amazed that we're at only 18% right now. Uh, but I think that's only because a lot of people have been furloughed and are not um, un- unemployed. Um, so, so, you know, if, if all those people go back to work that have been furloughed, you know, restaurants and things like that, it'll be okay. But anyway, we've, we've increased in the last 60 days 15% in unemployment. If that 30,000 figure is actually correct, that's an additional 450,000 people a year, you know, uh, uh, dying from, from external ramifications of, of being, uh, unwanted.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:17:01

       And this is in line with what you said earlier about costs, right?

   14. JSJoel Salatin1:17:06

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:17:07

       Like we were, you're talking about the cost of food, but, and then look at the cost of healthcare. When the cost of food is higher and food is higher quality, look at that, the cost of healthcare drops in an equal number.

   16. JSJoel Salatin1:17:18

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:17:18

       And I think this is, this is along those lines with... We're looking at death-

   18. JSJoel Salatin1:17:23

       Yes.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:17:23

       ... through the coronavirus, but we're saying, "Oh, you're putting dollars over lives. You're saying the economy is more important than people's lives."

   20. JSJoel Salatin1:17:32

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:17:32

       No, we're saying you need a nuanced perspective, because if you ignore the economy, it actually costs lives.

   22. JSJoel Salatin1:17:39

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:17:39

       And it costs a staggering number of lives and in a horrible way. Suicide, drug addiction-

   24. JSJoel Salatin1:17:45

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:17:45

       ... depression.

   26. JSJoel Salatin1:17:46

       Right. And, and if I, if I may go a, a little... Uh, just one other little thread on this whole thing. Um, again, thinking about, well, where are... Who... How, how can we employ all the people? I mean, if, if our, if our discretionary spending... I- if, if this is going to make people more careful about discretionary spending, you know, flying to Paris, going on a Caribbean cruise, going to the Sandals resort.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:18:13

       You know how cheap those Caribbean cruises are? Jamie and I have been going over this. It's basically cheaper than being homeless. You could be on a cruise for like five to seven nights for 105 bucks with all you can eat.

   28. JSJoel Salatin1:18:28

       Wow.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:18:28

       Where are you gonna get that kind of food?

   30. JSJoel Salatin1:18:30

       No. That's right.

Episode duration: 2:09:16