Joe Rogan Experience #1479 - David Pakman

Joe Rogan 0:01 Coming to us live via technology from the other side of the continent, David Pakman, ladies and gentlemen.

David Pakman 0:08 So good to be back with you.

Joe Rogan 0:09 Good to be with you too, and I love your facial hair, as I was saying before. I- I-

David Pakman 0:13 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:13 ... say stick with it all the way, maybe get some kind of a cult leader guru thing happening.

David Pakman 0:19 I'm actually five days from a man bun and I- I- I-

Joe Rogan 0:21 (laughs)

David Pakman 0:21 ... wanted to see what you thought about that.

Joe Rogan 0:24 The man bun's the starter kit for a cult leader, right?

David Pakman 0:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:27 The man bun is like, "I'm trying to get people to listen to me more and take me more seriously, I'm spiritual."

David Pakman 0:31 I need a, I need, like, a gimmick of some kind.

Joe Rogan 0:34 Mm. I think your gimmick is just being a nice guy-

David Pakman 0:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:36 ... and smart. How about that? That's rare.

David Pakman 0:38 To a fault. Nice to a fault is the new thing.

Joe Rogan 0:39 Oh, you're- you're nice to a fault?

David Pakman 0:42 I don't know. I- I get emails from people who are, like, "You don't have to kowtow to the dumb part of your audience." Like, you don't have-

Joe Rogan 0:50 Mm-hmm.

David Pakman 0:50 ... to say stuff like, "Listen, I wanna apologize in advance for using a slightly off-color phrase, but," th- um, people are like, "You just don't, you just shouldn't do that. It's better for the show for you just to say the thing."

Joe Rogan 1:03 I love that you listen to those people. I think you should be yourself and if you-

David Pakman 1:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07 ... feel like you need to say that, I feel like you should just say that. It's nothing wrong with it. Doesn't hurt my feelings when you say things like that. You know-

David Pakman 1:14 That's fine.

Joe Rogan 1:14 ... even if I understand what you're doing, it's not... it's no big deal. I feel like there's too many opinions in this and it sucks for the people with opinions in this. And I think it's one of the problems with what we do and one of the reasons why people get so angry at us. So, if you and I are having a conversation and we- we, maybe per- perhaps we agree on something, but someone listening is like, "Fuck that! This is what's wrong with that idea." And they wanna say it, but they can't. There's... and so, the comments are almost inherently angry 'cause it's really, uh, so much of it is just people who wanna say something, but there's no forum for them. They- they- they-

David Pakman 1:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49 ... only can say it in the comments. They can't... they feel like they're in on this conversation, but they wanna jump in on and interject.

David Pakman 1:56 Well, I got an email today from someone who said, "I love everything you've been doing for the last six years, but yesterday, you used the word anti-vaxxer and I- I just... that's it, that was it."

Joe Rogan 2:07 (laughs)

David Pakman 2:07 "When you used that word, that was it for the David Pakman Show." And it's like, I... you can't win with that. You can't win-

Joe Rogan 2:13 No.

David Pakman 2:13 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 2:13 But it's the same thing. It's like they're angry, right? And this is the way to get you to listen, like, "What? You're leaving? Wait a minute." You... they're being completely unreasonable. Can you imagine if there was a show that you enjoy and the guy said one thing that you disagreed with, and it's especially something like calling someone an anti-vaxxer and you're like, "Fuck this. It's over. My relationship with you is over." That- though... that purity standard is impossible to achieve, especially when you're doing something like what you and I do, where we're, you know, we're basically just talking with a very... I mean, I'm sure you have, like, some bullet points of things you wanna cover, but you're ad-libbing all the time. You're fr... what, what we call free balling all the time. And that's a... it's a crazy standard to try to hold, to- to ask someone to not say anything that you're gonna disagree with. Or I say things I disagree with, you know, I'll listen to it a half hour later or I'll- I'll- I'll think about it a day later and I'm like, "Why did I even say it like that?" I don't... wh-

David Pakman 3:06 I- I have videos from seven years ago where, you know, it's not that my... like, my- my foundational values haven't changed, but I do look at it and I say, "You know, if I had known then what was going to happen four months later, I never would have done it that particular way."

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah, there's a... well, there's a lot of things that happen in the news that force you to sort of shift your opinions and go, "Oh, that kind of stuff does happen. Oh, I've been naive. I've had this perception of, you know, whether it's the government or the intelligence agencies or what... of- of being, like, beyond reproach, and now I find out, oh, all right, now I gotta go and revisit a lot of things that I was saying were nonsense, a lot of things that I was dismissing openly. Now I gotta go, 'Oh'." Well, we like to think that th- uh, when it comes to, like, governments and intelligence agencies, we like to think that there's some level of, uh, whether it's government or military, there's some place that you could reach where you're, like, a super person, where you're not going to make any of the mistakes that we'd attribute to people based on greed or ego or pettiness or- or- or f- short-sightedness, that when you get to that point, you're a proven commodity and that you are... you're what we're looking for as a leader. And you have to be upheld... you have to uphold these very strict standards at that spot. And we assume that there is an actual thing like that. And I think it's one of the reasons why people get f- so frustrated at Trump is because he doesn't even try to pretend he's one of those things. He- he- he behaves-

David Pakman 4:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:37 ... the same way he used to.

David Pakman 4:39 Well, one of the things that I was kind of in a battle with- with... in- in with my audience during the primary was, I would get emails from people who would say, "The only person who can beat Trump is Bernie," for example. And then, I would get people who... people who would say, "The only person who could beat Trump is Tulsi Gabbard. Everybody else is straight up a bad person." And I- I... my message was always, "Listen, we shouldn't deify any of these people. These are just people." You've met a lot of them, they've been in your studio. That- the... we're- we're just talking about people. You're not going to agree with them on every policy position. You're not gonna agree with everything they've done personally. And where I think it gets dicey is where they start movements... it's a cult of personality, really, where a movement is built around the person as an idea and they can do no wrong, and that's where you're... there's no way to talk those folks down about issues or about practical decisions that we have to make.

Joe Rogan 5:34 No, I think you're 100% right. And I- I also think that the position itself, the- the world has grown too large for the position. I feel like if we were, uh... if we left...... from all parts of the land and all, all parts of the world and found, uh, an empty continent, well, obviously the United States wasn't really empty. But if we found a place where we resettled and we tried to restructure government from scratch, we would, we would take that into consideration now. I think our Founding Fathers, they, they were just dealing with this archetypal structure of one person that sort of runs things, but in this case it would, uh, be a person that we all agreed to, and it, it was a much better step moving forward than kings, right? But I think now that we've kind of done that for a while and we realize, well, yeah, that might be great when it's 100,000 people or a million people. But once it gets to 320 million people and complicated things like international business and, like, uh, trade agreements and the environment and nuclear power versus solar and wind, and like, one person is gonna be responsible for all these insanely important decisions? That seems crazy. And to blame one person when any one thing goes wrong seems crazy as well. It just, I don't think we would do it this way. I think we'd have some sort of a council of wise people or something along those lines.

David Pakman 6:51 Well, you know what's interesting to me about that? I mean, we're like diving headfirst right into, you know-

Joe Rogan 6:56 Yeah.

David Pakman 6:56 ... a, a bunch of stuff here. But, what's interesting about that is when you think about who to vote for for president, and I know that, you know, we, we, we're gonna get, we'll get into this stuff, I'm sure. You're not just voting for the person, you're voting for who are they likely to have working for them-

Joe Rogan 7:11 Right.

David Pakman 7:11 ... what is likely to happen in courts, what is likely to happen regulation-wise. And so, of course you want to think about who it is that the person is, but you also want to think about who do they bring with them. And for me, that's a lot of how I see voting in November at this point.

Joe Rogan 7:30 Yeah, most people have made that concession. And it's an interesting concession, right? Because it's not a concession we had to make. If it was, uh, Tulsi Gabbard or Bernie Sanders or Amy Klobuchar or Pete Buttigieg or, you know, go down the line, there's a, uh, uh, a lot of very credible candidates that would've made, like, enter, like, maybe this person could be the next great president, maybe this person could be a great leader. But now d- we're in this position, we're like, "Oh, God, okay." So listen, we're voting for the cabinet. (laughs) We're, you know, like, Biden is so, uh, uh- he's, whether or not he's having moments that are related to cognitive decline, which you could speculate, or whether or not this is just his reaction to the most extreme amount of pressure he's ever faced in his life, and that does happen with people, we know people lock up... I would imagine that a guy who's been in the spotlight as long as he has for so long probably would, would be able to handle stuff. But I think running for president is a whole different ballgame. I think th- everything gets turned up by ten, and I think it gets turned up in this society that we're experiencing today, it gets turned up even more so because of social media. Like, no president other than Trump has had, really had to deal with this kind of wave of social viral, uh, y- you know, f- feedback online with Twitter and Facebook and YouTube and all, all the stuff that we're experiencing right now. They didn't, uh, o- Obama didn't have to deal with that really in his first term. Maybe a little bit in his second term. But then Trump's the first guy to tackle it head-on, and he's, you know, in, in a lot of ways he's showing you what can come at you. And I think that when Biden is running through these steps to try to become president, he's experiencing a wave of attention and scrutiny that he's never experienced before. And that could also exacerbate, what am I, a doctor here? I'm exam- I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with his head? But that could also exacerbate-

David Pakman 9:21 Well, I was gonna say, are you, um-

Joe Rogan 9:22 Yes.

David Pakman 9:22 ... are you ta- have you taken a position on the, the Biden cognitive stuff that's been going on-

Joe Rogan 9:26 Something's wrong. Something's wrong. If he was my friend and he was fighting, I'd ask him to retire.

David Pakman 9:31 Hm.

Joe Rogan 9:31 I mean, if I'm looking at it that way. I have friends, um, that I've seen their cognitive d- decline from fighting. Um, I'm not saying that Biden's the same, because I don't really know him from, you know, I don't know him over a long period of time, I don't, I don't know him at all personally. But something's wrong. The way-

David Pakman 9:48 Are any of your friends that, are they close to 80 any of them?

Joe Rogan 9:52 No. No.

David Pakman 9:53 Okay.

Joe Rogan 9:53 The guys who-

David Pakman 9:54 Because I don't-

Joe Rogan 9:54 ... experience cognitive decline are younger guys who've been hit in the head. Um-

David Pakman 9:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:57 ... the, when, when you get to 80, uh, I, I have known people that have had problems, and it's, it's very unfortunate. Um, I don't think he's there, where I, what I'm, you know, 'cause you could still talk to him. Like, if, if that was just a guy that you knew and he was like, uh, and he said something like, "We've all been endowed by, uh, you know, the thing," you know that one famous spe- you see, you wouldn't say, "Oh Jesus, what's going on with Ray?" You would say, "Oh, he had a, he locked up. He had a brain fart. He had a, a mental lapse," which I've had doing podcasts all the time. It, it can happen. But in that moment in front of those people to do it that way, while he's running for president and while he's had a few of those before, he could be dealing with anxiety too. There's, uh, probably a lot of shit going on. But I would be concerned.

David Pakman 10:43 Yeah, I mean, listen. So I, I don't have any, I don't, my view is just based on actual professionals th- that I've talked to and people that have been in a room with him, because I've, I've, I'm not a professional and I've not been in the room with Biden. So Andrew Yang was on with Sam Harris recently, I don't know if you saw it, and this topic came up. And Andrew Yang basically said, "Listen, he, he's 78 years old. If you compare a video of Biden debating Paul Ryan in 2012 to Biden a month ago, obviously it's different." And to some degree you, that's normal when someone's 78 years old.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Yeah.

David Pakman 11:17 But Andrew Yang's perspective was that he didn't see anything that he would call, uh, dementia or cog- cognitive decline beyond that. So that's like one, it's just one data point, it doesn't tell us anything definitively, you know? The other thing is, I've interviewed a few people and I, I think you and I maybe have even messaged about some of them, uh, uh, neuroscience, neu- uh, neurologists and mental health professionals who were very concerned about Trump, like the oranges of an investigation, the, where he, his, he seems to sort of like lock up when his shoulders g-... s- sort of, you know, this thing that he does where his shoulders kind of, uh, uh, lock up-

Joe Rogan 11:52 I haven't seen that.

David Pakman 11:52 ... in a weird way.

Joe Rogan 11:52 I haven't seen that.

David Pakman 11:53 Oh, there's a few of those, yeah. I, I got video of that. You know, he walks off of his plane-

Joe Rogan 11:55 So, that could just be an injury. You think it's a neurological thing?

David Pakman 11:58 I don't know. That's the thing. It... So, it could be neurological, mental health, side effect of medication. There, there's a whole-

Joe Rogan 12:04 Mm.

David Pakman 12:04 ... bunch of stuff it could be.

Joe Rogan 12:05 Could it also be-

David Pakman 12:06 But, uh-

Joe Rogan 12:06 ... an injury?

David Pakman 12:08 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 12:08 Yeah.

David Pakman 12:09 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 12:09 I mean, if, if he's doing something-

David Pakman 12:10 But, um-

Joe Rogan 12:10 ... with his back or shoulder?

David Pakman 12:12 Well, it's weird because he, when it happens, he has a verbal mistake that he makes, and it coincides with this shoulder thing. And then it's almost like there's a half-second gap, and then someone hits the reset button and he'll get back on the teleprompter or whatever. It's weird. There's, like, 10 or so examples of this.

Joe Rogan 12:30 I need to see this. I need to (laughs) ... I need to see this-

David Pakman 12:32 Here's a bunch.

Joe Rogan 12:32 ... while I'm talking to you. Um, w- so Jamie's gonna search for one. So, what would he search for?

David Pakman 12:37 Um, I think if you, if you went to, like, search.Twitter.com and just searched in videos the way you can do and you put, like, "Trump brain glitch," I'm guessing that some of these (laughs) would, uh-

Joe Rogan 12:50 Oh.

David Pakman 12:50 ... would come up. But the, the, the gist of what I was getting to was some of these same neurologists and mental health folks, when I asked them privately about Biden and say, "Do you... Are you seeing, like, the same type of thing?" They all say no. So, again, it's like, "It's not my view."

Joe Rogan 13:06 They're Democrats. They're hardcore Democrats.

David Pakman 13:07 I don't think so. I don't know if that's

Joe Rogan 13:07 Wait, come on, man.

David Pakman 13:09 ... that's-

Joe Rogan 13:09 He's had these moments where for sure something doesn't look good, right?

David Pakman 13:14 I agree. Totally agree.

Joe Rogan 13:15 So, why would they say any differently? They've gotta be Democrats. They gotta be hardcore party loyalists.

David Pakman 13:20 I, I think that to assume that absent any evidence is maybe unfair.

Joe Rogan 13:24 Yeah, it is, but I'm an unfair guy in some, some respects. (laughs)

David Pakman 13:28 But here's my thought on this right now. So, like, what... Let, let's imagine that Biden's having a r- a problem, right?

Joe Rogan 13:35 Okay.

David Pakman 13:35 Let's, let's imagine it's absolutely for real. Uh, I'm still voting for him over Trump, right? I mean, like, so I, I think the last time we talked you mentioned you were pro-choice. Do I remember that right?

Joe Rogan 13:44 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David Pakman 13:45 So, if Donald Trump-

Joe Rogan 13:46 I, I am, but I feel like it's a, it's a controversial subject for a reason.

David Pakman 13:50 Fair. Fair.

Joe Rogan 13:51 Yeah.

David Pakman 13:52 If Donald Trump gets to pick the next Supreme Court justice, it will be someone who would love to overturn Roe v. Wade. I mean, there's not even a chance. He, he, he said it, right? If Joe Biden-

Joe Rogan 14:03 This is when Tri- Trump has said that he is, uh, that he's pro-life and that he-

David Pakman 14:07 Well...

Joe Rogan 14:08 ... would pick someone-

David Pakman 14:09 So, th-

Joe Rogan 14:09 ... that would... Or it, it was just by virtue of picking conservative?

David Pakman 14:12 There's a, there... It's, it's actually, it's, there's two parts to it. One is Donald Trump was pro-choice almost his entire life.

Joe Rogan 14:18 Yes.

David Pakman 14:18 He became pro-life when he was, I think, 68 because he met a kid he liked, and he imagined-

Joe Rogan 14:23 (laughs)

David Pakman 14:23 ... if that kid wasn't born... No, I'm serious. If he-

Joe Rogan 14:26 I, I believe you. It's just hilarious.

David Pakman 14:28 It's crazy. But so-

Joe Rogan 14:29 It's like an ABC after school special.

David Pakman 14:31 Let's imagine that that's true, that he had an awakening at age 68 after being pro-life his whole life.

Joe Rogan 14:36 Yeah.

David Pakman 14:37 He said he would pick justices that were recommended to him by I forget which conservative group. You're only gonna get, you know, pro, so-called pro-life justices from these groups.

Joe Rogan 14:48 Mm-hmm.

David Pakman 14:48 On the other hand, Joe Biden will absolutely pick a pro-choice justice. So, if, if I was pro-choice like you are, how do I justify voting for the guy who's gonna replace potentially Ruth Bader Ginsburg with someone who would want Roe v. Wade overturned? Like, I couldn't do it in good conscience.

Joe Rogan 15:06 That's, that's a good point, and, well, I'm gonna get into it in a second. But Jamie just pulled up this video of Trump, and I'm gonna get to watch him have this weird twitch for the first time. Okay, hit me with it, Jamie. Okay, so he's talking. I'm watching it. Is that it, that little move that he made? It's one of them, I guess. Oh, this is hil- this is hilariously silly. Now it's the part I can't tell. "Trump neurologically malfunctions with a full spasm." No, he's talking and he just went like this. People do that. That's silly. Maybe it's just-

David Pakman 15:42 So-

Joe Rogan 15:42 ... maybe that video is silly.

David Pakman 15:44 So, I mean, there's a dozen of them. Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't hear it, and I don't remember.

Joe Rogan 15:46 I think a better, a better thing is something that you showed me on your show.

David Pakman 15:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:49 A better example, when there was real problems with him enunciating words and w- you know, there was speculation like, was he falling asl... Was he sick? Was, was he on a sedative? Was, was something, something going wrong? It a- almost seemed like his tongue wasn't working correctly, right?

David Pakman 16:08 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:08 Like, like he was wrestling-

David Pakman 16:09 That's-

Joe Rogan 16:10 ... with, with a paralyzed tongue. Like, tr-

David Pakman 16:12 Your perspective matches mine, but-

Joe Rogan 16:14 Yeah.

David Pakman 16:14 ... I, I think... I really... For me, it's like this stuff... We're not probably ever gonna really get an answer to this. And I don't know that it's imperative to know the answers for me to know who it is I'm gonna vote for, I guess is the point I'm trying to make.

Joe Rogan 16:30 Mm. It's, it's fascinating that, um, pro-choice is such a, a hard-line issue on r- left-wing people and right-wing people. It's, um, it really is. That it's this line in the sand, and people are willing to s... They're, they're, they're willing to make concessions in favor of going in that direction as v... Because they recognize the slippery slope of eliminating people's rights and the dangers of going in the other direction. You're not gonna stop abortions. You're just gonna stop legal abortions. It's gonna be very dangerous for the women. It's gonna be... It's, it's, it's almost, you know, it's, it's al- it's almost a black and white issue in that regard. But what's not a black and white issue is abortion itself, right? Like, there's a time in the baby's life, or the fetus, when it's inside the woman where everyone gets uncomfortable, whether it's five months in, four months in, three. Whatever it is for you where you're like, "Oh, Jesus, that's a baby now." And to deny that, I think, is, uh, is very odd. That's a, uh, a weird thing that we... Because it's so uncomfortable. What it is is so uncomfortable, it bothers us so much, that we, we just draw these lines and we've got this opinion in a box. And it's this and this... Here we go. W- we've got this bulletproof right-wing box, and you can never have an abortion. Okay, well, what if your daughter gets raped by, uh, some robber? You think that your daughter should have to carry this man's child? Like, if they know about it immediately when it's a, a bundle of cells? Really? You think that? Like, that to me is insane.And-

David Pakman 18:07 Right. Now, if you knew that it was conceivable that Trump would put someone on the court who has that view, that'd be pretty scary, wouldn't it?

Joe Rogan 18:16 Well, it's scary in a lot of ways. It's scary in a lot of ways. Um, I think the more control government has over your body and the more it can dictate what you can and can't do, the scarier things get. And then it gets scary in that this is a subject that, you, you know, it's so polarizing and if you, you move in the direction of limiting it, you run the risk, I always feel, of shifting even, like, the consciousness of the public. Shifting the way people approach things like this, accepting control, that the government has control over your body. That's like one of the mo- like... the, the idea that they can come and, and decide what you, what you have to do for the rest of your life now, based on maybe something that wasn't even your choice, that to me is crazy. But that's not the only thing-

David Pakman 19:04 Of course.

Joe Rogan 19:04 ... that's going on. There's so many other issues.

David Pakman 19:06 And, and

Narrator 19:06 Me, too.

Joe Rogan 19:06 It's one of the reasons why picking a president and picking apart, it's so cr- it's so crazy that we let one person, m- and then his group that he gets with him, shift the consciousness of the public or shift the direction of the country one way or the other. It's just, it's a really weird choice that we make in even making a president and in doing it every four years and having all these checks and balances that you have to follow. I mean, I think it's a gr- it's a great system for the time when they invented it. It's, I mean, it's amazing how well it holds up from 1776 to today. It's incredible. It shows you how amazingly wise they were. But just think about what we know now in 2020 about just the nature of communication, like what you and I are doing. I mean, the, the, this is gonna affect millions of people and their opinions. If, if you knew that today in 2020 and someone asked you to make rules based on what was going to be in place 300 years from now, you would be like, "I'm not qualified to do that." It's really, it's incredible how well they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights back then. I mean, it's really... it's one of the most amazing things ever if you really think about, like, all the, the, the different times that it's come up and then you, you, you think about how long it's been that, that it was created. I mean, it's really an astounding piece of human work.

David Pakman 20:27 It is. Your, your argument though is really one for having to update the infrastructure that we ba- right? So like, as you're saying, if in order to change the way that we govern the country, as you're saying, you know, one person making all these decisions with all of these different areas that they're responsible for, if you wanna change that, you do have to change that document that you just said.

Joe Rogan 20:51 I know. It's kind of crazy, right? It's like, we don't want to update Windows 95. Like, I'm comfortable with it. I know where the icons are. But Windows 10's like, "Hey, you know, come, come, come make the switch. We've got a better system."

David Pakman 21:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:02 "We figured it out better." We, we don't have a Windows 10 of government, you know? We still, we're still working with 95. We, you know, we still have the older versions of Apple's software. We don't have, uh, OS X 10, whatever the rate- latest version of it is. We, we are in this weird place where, you know, we, we have this system that's better than anything that we could see anywhere else, but yet it really... it doesn't necessarily work perfectly for the complicated issues that exist in managing just the 330 million people and all their problems.

David Pakman 21:37 What is your sense of... I mean, is there, like, uh, is there a particular issue where when you think of Trump and Biden, you're on the Trump side, uh, in terms of the political position?

Joe Rogan 21:51 Hmm. Like what political positions? See, s- see, one of... my opinions on political posi- positions, especially like the really scary ones, right? Like the possibility of war, um, the environment, things along those lines. I, I wish I was more informed. I wish I knew exactly w- you know, like, when, when there's some negotiations i- i- in these trade war deals with China, for instance, like I wish I understood that better. I wish I really knew what was at stake and what China's actually trying to do and whether or not, uh... l- like in particular, like when you think about Chine- China and the military and their, their engagement with the companies, the reason why... like, I was... I never understood why they were trying to keep Huawei out. I was like, "Why do they keep..." that doesn't make any sense to me. Like shouldn't they show that they've done something bad and... but it's a company that they feel is inexorably connected to the, the Chinese government. So that's like negotiating with them and that kind of... like to, for me to say that I think that this person's doing a better job or I like the way Biden would handle it better, like, do I really know what the fuck I'm talking about? I don't. You know, I really don't.

David Pakman 22:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:56 And that's the case with a lot of issues. I mean social issues I think-

David Pakman 22:59 Like, there... that's what I was gonna say.

Joe Rogan 23:01 Yeah.

David Pakman 23:01 I feel like there's low-hanging fruit, where just from listening to you, it's like, you know, when, when you said that you were mostly sort of a, a Bernie guy, that in the primary you, you seem to... I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that Bernie would be your primary, the person in the primary that you would lean towards or support. Um, if you pick environment, just for one example, Bernie's big on Green New Deal and we could debate how practical is it. Is it just a framework? Is it something that could literally be made law or whatever the case? Um, Trump thinks climate change was a hoax created by China, whereas Biden supports the Green New Deal as a framework. It's like, if you're coming from... if we start with Bernie, you can see that there's a grand canyon-sized gap between the two options. And so that's where I'm kind of interested in 'cause you know, I get a, you, you, I'm sure... I don't know if you see them or not, but there's all these articles about Joe Rogan is a left/right/center, whatever. You and I have spoken enough now where you've made it clear that your actual positions on social issues, environment, they're pretty left, and you've even said-

Joe Rogan 24:03 They're all left. Yeah.

David Pakman 24:03 ... "Bernie is really who aligns with me." Okay, Biden is not Bernie for sure, but it's, it's, it's closer. And so that's where I'm interested in where th- there's really anything you can identify where you're like, "I just don't agree with Biden on this."

Joe Rogan 24:15 Um, well, when you talk about Bernie and why I was interested in Bernie, what Bernie represented to me was someone who wanted change a- at a, like a societal level, wanted to help people in a way that wasn't gonna make anybody any money. It wasn't something where he was clearly doing this because of the special interest groups that put him in a position, thinking this would ultimately be more profitable. When he's talking about things like eliminating student loans, s- student... and making school le- um, free for everyone, when you say that, I go, "W- how... First of all, that's not making anybody any money," right? That's one of those things you're only doing because you think it would be better for humans, better for our culture, better for our, our civilization. I'm all for that. Those are, those are the things, uh, eliminating these catastrophic healthcare bills that people get when they get sick and they go bankrupt. That, to me, is crazy that we have this community, that's what it's supposed to be, right? The United States is supposed to be like, almost like a giant team. And we would let others, just by f- simple misfortune, we would let their life completely fall apart because they got injured and they come up with this bill that literally changes the whole course of their life. If you're a person who makes $50,000 a year, and you know, you're doing fine, and then all of a sudden, uh, a catastrophic injury comes along and you get hit with a, a bill, a medical bill that's in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, you're fucked. Like, your, your life... You don't have enough time to make that up unless you do something significantly different in terms of earning more money. So, you're stuck and you're in a bad-

David Pakman 25:51 That's it.

Joe Rogan 25:52 That's, to me, crazy.

David Pakman 25:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:54 And that doesn't make any sense. Like, as a person who values community, as a person who values... Like, we can help and it makes everybody feel good. If you can help someone who came upon some bad fortune, they feel better, you f- they feel protected and loved. You feel better for being able to use your, you know, your privilege or your l- fortune to, to help these people. That's what we need more of. That is what stood out for me about Bernie Sanders. Now, the argument against that is the pro-business argument, right? The pro-business argument is the stronger the businesses, the, the better business does. There's a trickle-down effect and the whole society will rise up because the economy is stronger. And m- and, you know, yeah, there's gonna be some ruthless capitalism going on, but ultimately it benefits everybody. And that's... I don't think you have to have one or the other there. I mean, I, I, I, I don't think that this is a... these are mutually exclusive, that you can't... You can have capitalism, but you could also have compassion and we could, we could work together as a community and, and, and try to take all these problems that we have that, that are really clear, right? Like, these inner cities that never get any better, they never show any improvement. Unless they get gentrified, everything stays fucked, right? Why... Is that... That's not an insurmountable problem. Like, if we can fly across the planet and, and try to fix countries that we've blown up in war, why can't we try to fix the inner cities that our, our, our kids go to school in? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. That people are forced to live in. That's why I was interested in Bernie Sanders. That's what he means to me. So that's-

David Pakman 27:30 The healthcare example is an interesting one, because it really comes down to what is the main point of, of the healthcare apparatus, right?

Joe Rogan 27:39 Right.

David Pakman 27:39 If the main point is to get people as healthy as possible so that they can live the longest, most fulfilling lives that they want or are able to, that gets you one set of policies. If the perspective is healthcare is just an industry like any other where the participants just are there to make money, that's a totally dif- different policy prescription and regulatory infrastructure. It's l- it's night and day.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Yeah, it really is. It really is night and day. And, um, it's, it's one of those things that I think people are probably gonna be more interested in hearing about now after this pandemic and they realize, hey, through no fault of your own, you could be broke. Through no fault of your own, you can lose your business. Through no fault of your own... So, all of these ideas that, like, uh, I know people that are pretty right-wing that would g- give me a hard time about... Call me a socialist and a commie because I'm really into Bernie Sanders. A lot of those very same people are now wanting to get that stimulus check. A lot of those very same people are now understanding why I supported Andrew Yang and his concept of universal basic income, 'cause his concept is based on his understanding of technology and his knowledge of AI and the potential possibility to just take millions of people out of the market, out of the workplace (snaps fingers) like that. Almost like this, like a virus of technology that removes diseases... Excuse me, removes jobs instead of removes your health. And I think that more people probably would be better off if we shifted our ideas about what socialism means and what, uh, democratic socialism means. I think the n- the word is so toxic, maybe we should just call it s- community support. You know, that we should, we should think of these really key things, like student loans. I think we both agree about this. It is insane to start your life at 21 years, 22 years old, just getting out of school with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. That's insane. And if you go on to get a PhD, ah, it keeps going, it keeps going. And you get to this point where you're, you're just... You have this weight over you everywhere you go. There's this big ass weight and you're carrying it around and that car- you're carrying around this debt that even if you go bankrupt you have to pay. How did that happen? How are businesses able to pollute the environment, make terrible mistakes, go under, go bankrupt, and they're absolved of their debt, but a kid who wanted to learn something goes to a school and w- winds up... You know, you're 22. You're not even a fully formed human yet and you're in debt. You're fucked. You're starting out of the gate crazy, crazy behind the line.

David Pakman 30:20 Well, you're completely right, of course, uh, about the toxic nature of the word socialism-

Joe Rogan 30:27 Yeah.

David Pakman 30:27 ... just to go back to that for a second. I think that that hurt Bernie. In 2015, I was saying, "Bernie may well have been a socialist in the 1970s. He may still be one, but he's really running on, on social democracy, which is what they have in Northern Europe." It's a type of capitalism, and this is what I think Andrew Yang actually did well. I, I, I don't know if it was p- like, people-centered capitalism that he called what he was doing or, or what phrase he used. But I do think in my postmortems about what happened with Bernie, because it wasn't by a little bit that Bernie lost. I mean, b- even before he dropped out, he was down, like, 1.8 or two million votes to Joe Biden. Like, this, this was really not close. I do think that the continued use of the, that word socialism w- was not helpful, and I know people will hear, hear me say this and they'll say, "David, either way, they were gonna call him a socialist. What difference does it make if he embraces the term or says it's not the right term or whatever?" Sure, that, that applies to some people, but I fail to see what the advantage was to using a term that didn't really describe what his campaign was. He w- he's talking about capitalism where you say, like you're pointing out, "We can't let people drop too low. We need to ensure some basic level things happen that aren't people's fault." It's not just about you're gonna do as well as you want to do. There are circumstances people are born into, injuries, pandemics, all this stuff.

Joe Rogan 31:49 Yes.

David Pakman 31:49 So, I, I do think that whatever your opinion is about socialism, s- quote, unquote, there was really no advantage to Bernie Sanders from using or, or at least to some degree allowing that term to continue being used.

Joe Rogan 32:03 Well, he wanted to redefine it, and when he came onto my show, he actually did try to define it and des- describe the difference between the concept of socialism, which a lot of people connect to communism, and what he calls democratic socialism. You know? And what he was showing a more, uh, a more tamed down version of this, this concept that, you know, a lot of, like, real young lefties, like my friend, uh, my friend, uh, Bridget was on the podcast the other day, Bridget Phetasy. She's a hilarious writer, very funny comedian. And she was talking about how she found some stuff that she wrote when she was in her early 20s, and she read it and she's, she's more, uh, center today, I would say. M- maybe e- uh, I mean left on many issues politically, socially rather. Uh, but she was like AOC, she said. She said she's reading this stuff and she was, like, uh, like a radical when she was young, and I think that happens to people. You d- I'm sure Bernie was probably a full-on socialist at one point in his life. But, like, what did that mean back then versus what does it mean now? And even the term socialist. Like, the term, like, when you, when you look at the term conservative or the term socialist, you're talking about a spectrum. You're not talking about a one or a zero. It's not a, it's not a... You can't have a, uh... No one has the same number factor of conservative as... There's a lot of people that are conservative that they, you know, they're very liberal on a lot of social issues, but yet they still ver- vote red. And I think there's a lot of people that consider themselves c- uh, like, a socialist. But what it, what does that... At what level? And if you're pro-fire department, I think you're k- you, you embrace some socialist values, right? If you're pro- a lot of the services that we use that are a part of your tax dollars... Like, we're combining our money so that w- the world is better for all of us. It's not just a dog eat dog fight. We recognize value in community and society and a civilization where we all work together. We just don't wanna work together too much. We don't want people leeching off of it. And, and I'm on that side as well, because I know that although there are m- and we're seeing these more than we've ever seen in our life, that multiple circumstances beyond your comprehension, totally out of your control that fucks up your life. But yet we also see people who are lazy and who keep fucking up their life and you keep enabling them and helping them. It doesn't help anybody either. Both those things are true. It does... Just because you agree with one thing, that we need to help each other, doesn't mean you deny the fact that there's a real problem psychologically to giving people free money and to giving people free room and board and taking away incentive for them to survive. There's something, for whatever reason, that a lot of us need this sort of, like, inner drive, this k- knowledge that you, you're responsible for your own destiny and you have to go out there and you have to put in the work. You have to get out of bed when the alarm goes off. You have to do the things you're supposed to do. And there's people that don't do that, and yet they still want to be rewarded. They still want money. They still want their check. They still, they still want the thing they feel society or government owes them. That's not good either. See, both of those things are not good. It's not good to let people who are sick rot and, and, and, and, and l- live their life in a compromised position because they don't have enough money for the medical care. That's sick too. It's not, uh, it's not a good person, it's not a good society, it's not a good model to have people starve. It's, that's not good. If there's money in food and we could sh- distribute it more evenly, especially the people that are unfortunate, but it's also not good to let people just camp out on the sidewalk where you can't walk through it. Los Angeles is filled with tents now, especially now because of all this craziness and the pandemic. It's gotten way worse. There's areas where you can't go anywhere. You, you literally can't walk under underpasses. There are these campgrounds. Like, that's not good either. You know, and, and, and, and now, now we're-

David Pakman 35:53 Okay. So, let's Uh-

Joe Rogan 35:53 ... dealing with mental health problems, I'm sure, and a lot of other issues.

David Pakman 35:56 L- let's talk about, getting into that. I mean, there's a lot, so, okay. You mentioned the areas where even right-wingers tend to be okay with sort of, like, socializing certain services, so fire department's an easy one.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Yeah.

David Pakman 36:05 Who does the road? Those are, those are all really easy.

Joe Rogan 36:07 Yeah.

David Pakman 36:07 But I think that there's some more pernicious ones that the right is less eager to own. Like, for example, it's all about free market capitalism for profits, make a business, build up the business, et cetera, even when that business is built on-... law enforcement that's socialized to protect your offices, uh, law infrastructure that you count on to protect your intellectual property. It's- uh, so put that aside for a second. But then, the- they're okay socializing the clean-up or the fixing in many cases.

Joe Rogan 36:37 Mm-hmm.

David Pakman 36:38 So with the drilling and fracking companies, for example.

Joe Rogan 36:40 Right, great examples.

David Pakman 36:42 Capitalism for the profits. Look at me, capitalist. I figured out how to do this drilling, how to, how to extract this energy from the earth. I bought the land, I bought the equipment, I'm hiring employees. Look at me, you know, pulling myself up by- by the bootstraps. Something goes wrong, people downwind, you know, get sick, whatever. Now, they're going to say, "Let's socialize that clean-up cost, though." Right? Because, you know, we should do this through taxation. Let's make sure that we're cleaning this up at the state level. We want state-funded, uh, we want state funds to get this all cleaned up. So, that is an area of hypocrisy that's more difficult than just, like, we mostly all agree the fire department should be socialized.

Joe Rogan 37:24 Yeah.

David Pakman 37:24 A few people will say, "No, if you call and there's not really a fire, you should owe money." Or s- that's, like, a tiny percentage. It's an easy one. The- the other- uh, the ones I'm talking about are a little bit tougher, and you're gonna get a lot more pushback, I think, if you were to focus on those.

Joe Rogan 37:40 Well, I- I think you've got a really good point with the environmental clean-up, like something like the BP oil spill. That's a really good point, and that's a weird one. It's like you don't wanna ... Uh, so it's almost like you- it's such a catastrophic event, you don't wanna leave it in the hands of someone who is so ... Uh, th- they've- I mean, they- they fucked up in the first place to make this happen. I don't trust them. I don't trust the way they do business. I mean, they- they, uh, maybe it's just something that happens when you drill under the ocean and you pull oil out. Occasionally, things go wrong. But I don't wanna trust them to fix that. Uh, I wanna th- uh, have some sort of environmental clean-up crew that's in place, and maybe give them the bill.

David Pakman 38:17 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:17 I mean, I don't know what did it cost? How much did it cost BP to- to have that ... And isn't it still leaking? Hasn't it been proven that that- it's still polluting the ocean?

David Pakman 38:27 I don't know of over the last year. I- I honestly don't know what's going on.

Joe Rogan 38:29 Did you ever see the videos of when it was-

David Pakman 38:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:31 ... coming out of the ground?

David Pakman 38:32 Oh, yeah. It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 38:34 Like, the- the world's ending. Like-

David Pakman 38:36 It's a high pressure. It's just a high- it's just open for days, right? I mean, months-

Joe Rogan 38:39 Crazies.

David Pakman 38:39 ... I don't even remember how long it was just open. Um, but that's the point. If you don't ... So this is where it starts to get tricky, because it sounds like you might trust them to m- monetize it. But then if it gets messed up, hey, we- we shouldn't trust them to clean it up. Someone else should do it. Which maybe I agree with, and you're right, we should give them the bill. But that's the r- the role of regulation to begin with. If they were better supervised, we could've prevented this from the start. I mean, with the BP oil spill, I'm going back, like, 10 years now, but there was some $500,000 valve, I believe, that was not required. Um, I- I'm going from memory, so I hope I'm getting this 90% right. There was some regulation that was removed where they were no longer required to have this $500,000 safety on these rigs, which would have prevented it. And obviously, the 500 grand they didn't wanna spend up front, but it would have been way cheaper than what ultimately happened.

Joe Rogan 39:34 Hmm, Jesus. You know, when I see those rigs outside, like, um ... There's a place that I love to go to in Santa Barbara that they have these offshore little oil rigs. I always look at them like that ... One day in the future, we're gonna look back and go, "Why the fuck did we ever let them put those there?"

David Pakman 39:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:50 These ... That is so crazy. Any other business ... Like, first of all, that's not even our land, right? No one even owns that. It's like, if you're an oil company and you're in Texas, you have to have either a lease on the land or you have to have rights to the land. It has to be yours in order to dig into the ground and get oil. But out there in the ocean, you're just kinda doing it on public, uh, area. You're doing it in th- the- the world. I mean, once you get a certain amount of miles, I forget how many miles it is offshore, it's international waters, right? So you just ... We're making agreements. We're letting these companies go into s- uh, the ground, and we're not profiting from it at all. All the money goes to them, and they're sucking it out of the ocean. And at any moment, they- it could go wrong, could be an explosion, and the- the beaches are ruined for the rest of your generation. Like, woo!

David Pakman 40:36 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. They're- I don't know if it's going to be, like, in 50 years or 200 years, or, you know, however- however many years. At some point, we're going to look back and there will be-

Joe Rogan 40:44 (laughs)

David Pakman 40:44 ... you know, the- the books will say, "We used to pull this stuff out of the ground and then refine it and then burn it."

Joe Rogan 40:51 (laughs)

David Pakman 40:52 And then the- it would just ... And people would say, "You- you guys did what? What- how- how did that work? How did you even get away with that?"

Joe Rogan 40:57 Do you drive an electric car?

David Pakman 40:59 I- I don't currently, but I plan-

Joe Rogan 41:01 You son of a bitch.

David Pakman 41:01 ... to get ... I have a lease which is up in three months.

Joe Rogan 41:05 Oh, you plan. Okay.

David Pakman 41:05 And the next car will be electric.

Joe Rogan 41:07 Yeah. Um, once you get one, other cars feel stupid. I mean, I really-

David Pakman 41:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:12 Not just stupid because of the environmental risk. Like, I have a- a Tesla Model S.

David Pakman 41:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:16 It's the craziest thing I've ever driven. It literally doesn't make sense. They're so fast, it's- it's like it's violating physics. It's so strange. It's like, you see this enormous screen where the navigation's on. You're like, "Why did anybody ever have, like, a little screen-"

David Pakman 41:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:30 "... when you can have one of these things?" You know what? You can see- it's like having a map open in front of you. They're incredible.

David Pakman 41:35 Now, do you, um ... What if you do a- a long trip?

Joe Rogan 41:38 I don't bring it on a long trip.

David Pakman 41:40 Do you-

Joe Rogan 41:40 I don't trust it.

David Pakman 41:41 Oh, you don't trust it. Okay.

Joe Rogan 41:41 Yeah, I'm-

David Pakman 41:41 I was gonna say, do you ... Are you- are you planning ahead of time where you're stopping to charge it though?

Joe Rogan 41:46 I have friends that have driven many, many, you know, like, across the country even with Teslas.

David Pakman 41:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:51 And they- they, you know ... There's a little supercharger map that's built into the software. It's amazing. You can do it. But I don't wanna wait around in some town for 20 minutes while my car charges to 80% and look around for weirdos. Like, what if some shit's going down, man? What if- what if you're in, you know ... If you have, like, 14 miles left on your charge, and, uh, all of a sudden, uh, a- a building explodes half a block away. Like, you gotta get outta there. I like- I like t- to be able to ... If I'm- if I'm taking a road trip and I'm going across the country, I want options. Maybe if they have, like, a little engine they could get you by. Like, just a little tank of gas, a little engine to get you by in case you run outta batteries.... they're gonna-

David Pakman 42:27 Well, I guess it's-

Joe Rogan 42:28 ... it's gonna be solar eventually.

David Pakman 42:30 You could also just always not go below 50%, right? And then you-

Joe Rogan 42:33 Yeah.

David Pakman 42:33 ... you would know, if the shit hits the fan, you've got 50% at least.

Joe Rogan 42:37 Yeah, yeah, you could do that. Yeah, you could do that, but that would be annoying. You know, you drive, uh, you know, the 50%'s like 150 miles. So, if you're on a long trip, you go to 150 miles and pull over (sighs) , and then you gotta wait there for whatever amount of time. They're getting better at it though, and they're getting faster, but the point is, like, it's such a clear leap in the evolution of technology, that once you, you, you drive one of those, you're like, "Oh, it's game over." Like, he told me that, when Elon was here, he told me that, and I was, I was like, "Oh, you're just saying that 'cause it's your product," and we were joking around about it. But then, when I drove one, I'm like, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I mean, it's like, it doesn't even make sense. They're so much better than regular cars because it's instant acceleration. There's no, no gears. It's one gear. It's instant torque. And it, uh, it also is so quiet. Like, like, "Oh, I don't ha-... I can think. I can just drive around in this thing and think in total peace and quiet." The quiet part is really appealing to me, and I'm looking... I'm, I'm... In a few, in a few weeks, I think, right now, the Model 3s are, like, 10 weeks out, so I'm probably gonna put in an order in, you know, four or five weeks so I get it right, right when I need it. But, uh, as far as the Elon Musk/Tesla stuff, so I was, uh, I, I bought Tesla stock a long time ago, years, years ago. I don't remember exactly when. And obviously, it did really well for a really long time, and I don't remember when it was, if it was a year and a half ago or two years ago, but when Elon smoked pot on your show-

David Pakman 43:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:56 ... and the shit hit the fan, I panic sold half my stock.

David Pakman 44:00 No!

Joe Rogan 44:00 And, and yeah. And, and, and the thing is, um, I always say, "I don't know anything about stocks." I invest in mutual funds. You just let it ride, long-term, reinvest the dividends, don't think about it. But I have, like, five or six stocks that, that I actually chose to buy. And this is exactly why I don't invest in stocks, because I was convinced that, after that incident, he... that horrible things were going to happen, and I was-

David Pakman 44:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:23 ... like, "I'm selling half." And obviously, I regret having done that at this point. (laughs) Do you smok-... Do you smoke pot, Dave?

David Pakman 44:29 I don't, I don't smoke anything. I just think s- me- any- inhaling any smoke I, I just don't think is good, and so it's nothing, it's, I've not done it.

Joe Rogan 44:37 Well, there's definitely better ways to do it than inhaling smoke, but i- inhaling smoke is very effective. But, uh, you know, eating sugar is not good either, you know? I'm sure-

David Pakman 44:46 No.

Joe Rogan 44:46 ... you do that, right?

David Pakman 44:48 I, I try to limit it, certainly.

Joe Rogan 44:49 You worrying that much about what would happen in the market? I, I, I get it if you don't smoke pot. If you smoke pot-

David Pakman 44:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:55 ... you're like, "Oh, he's just... Well, all right. Relax, everybody." Because it seems like a drug.

David Pakman 44:59 It, it wasn't the smoking-

Joe Rogan 44:59 But we were drinking whiskey.

David Pakman 45:00 I wanna be clear. It wasn't the smoking pot that worried me.

Joe Rogan 45:02 It was the reaction to it?

David Pakman 45:03 It was, it was what happened with-

Joe Rogan 45:04 Yeah.

David Pakman 45:04 ... I think it was around the same time where he said, "I might have found someone to take the company private."

Joe Rogan 45:09 Yes.

David Pakman 45:09 And the SEC got involved, and I just panicked, and I, and I was like, "I'll keep... I'm up so much, I'll just sell half, so-"

Joe Rogan 45:16 Ah.

David Pakman 45:16 "... it's not the end of the world. I'm hedging my bets here."

Joe Rogan 45:19 (laughs)

David Pakman 45:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:20 Um, he has two qualities that I would never bet against, and the first one is an insane work ethic.

David Pakman 45:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:26 His work ethic is insane. It's insane. I mean, that guy will work 16 hours a day, seven days a week. He just keeps going. He's, he was, when he was trying to get the Model 3 production out, he was sleeping on the floor of the factory. I mean, he's a maniac, and he's weirdly intelligent, like, weirdly. It's, um, like, when you're, when I'm talking to him, I feel like I'm talking to someone in the future. Like, this is what p-... You know, if I, if I had to go back in time and, uh, have dinner with, uh, a Neanderthal, you know-

David Pakman 45:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:58 ... uh, I, I feel like it'd be real similar to when I sit down and hang out with Elon, how he feels. 'Cause like, I think he's like another, another level of human being. I think that that, that is a natural course of progression for evolution, that we are going to eventually find people that are... where they're, they're getting smarter. They're gonna get... It's... We're not gonna stay in this static state forever, right? Just like we didn't stay as an Australopithecus. We became human beings over, you know, natural selection and evolution, all that good stuff. That's gonna keep going, and if it's gonna keep going, you're, y- especially when it's integrated with this insane access to technology that kids have today and in- insane access to information, you're gonna have smarter people. It's gonna be a different thing, and they're, you know, maybe they're gonna... I mean, he's a, he's a person, he's a human being, so he, he does make mistakes just like human beings make, like when he called that guy a pedo guy and that kinda shit. But when it comes to his, uh, ability to allocate resources and do things and get things done, like, they, he's so smart, they just let him drill tunnels under LA. They're like, "Okay, go ahead."

David Pakman 47:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:03 They're like, "How many-"

David Pakman 47:04 So, what, I mean, uh-

Joe Rogan 47:04 ... "people would be able to go to the, you know, the, the city of Los Angeles and go, 'I've got an idea. I wanna put a tunnel, go all the way to Vegas'?" (laughs) They'd be like, "This guy's on coke. Get him outta here." But with Elon, they, they let him try. It's, uh, I think he's a really important person for our culture, really important, like probably one of the most-

David Pakman 47:21 So-

Joe Rogan 47:21 ... important people.

David Pakman 47:23 ... where are you on... I mean, I guess, at some point, coronavirus is the topic. Where-

Joe Rogan 47:28 Sure.

David Pakman 47:28 ... where are you on what's going on with him reopening the factory and saying, "Arrest me," and, I mean, I, uh, like, I- I've been following it to some degree.

Joe Rogan 47:37 It's really complicated, right? It's like, who should be able to decide when you can or can't go back to work? It's not, it's not straightforward. It's not cut and dry, because if you say that people should be allowed to make their own decision, you run into the very real possibility that, especially if you have to go to work at that factory, and you can't not work, and you do get sick, and you do go home, and you do spread it to your family, a loved one could die. That's, that's real. On the other hand, the government doesn't really seem to have any sort of straightforward plan as to how people can economically bounce back from this. They, I mean, there was one of the m- weirdest quotes. I think it was Trump that said this. We were just talking about businesses and restaurants, that they'll be open, maybe not with the same owners, but they'll be-

David Pakman 48:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:26 ... open again.Did you- did you see that quote?

David Pakman 48:29 (laughs) No, I don't- I don't- I didn't see that, but it's like, what does that really mean? Does that just mean, like, a different business will be created? What does that mean?

Joe Rogan 48:35 That's exactly what it means. It means that-

David Pakman 48:37 Okay.

Joe Rogan 48:37 ... he's just being pragmatic and maybe cold, whoever made that quote. That is probably how it's gonna go down, is it? Trump says restaurants will make comeback, just maybe with new owners. Yeah, that's what he said.

David Pakman 48:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:50 I mean, that don't- that does not make me feel good, man-

David Pakman 48:52 No.

Joe Rogan 48:52 ... if I'm a restaurant owner. You know, and there's, uh, a few restaurants that I'm always shouting out on the podcast, uh, that, like, are owned by friends of mine that are- th- these businesses are hurting so bad. They're- they- they've went like that (snaps fingers) to no customers or a very small percentage of customers who order takeout. When they were, you know, they had dine-in every night and they have these bills, and they had their business set up in a way that, you know, you have to make X amount of money in order to stay open. And they were successful and they were doing well in one of the toughest businesses to be successful in, and then all of a sudden, the rug gets pulled out. So, what's the solution? Should people just be able to go to restaurants and everybody who works there as a waiter or a cook or- they just h- maybe get sick and then more people die? Boy, that doesn't sound good to anybody either. So, what is the solution? I don't know, but I don't think that, in our p- particular case, I don't think our governor has the answers. Um, one of the things he's been criticized for is he's decided to open up production for television and films, but not churches. You know, there's another thing they've done that's really nuts, that my friend Adam Curry turned me onto. They closed Alcoholics Anonymous meetings-

David Pakman 50:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:00 ... but liquor stores were an essential business. (sighs) That is just not-

David Pakman 50:05 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 50:05 That's not good government. It's not good th- thinking. This- this- there's so many things-

David Pakman 50:10 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 50:10 ... where they've put into place these lists of what's approved and not approved, and I don't- I just don't think that it's an int- I d- first of all, I think the information is constantly changing, and I think that they're- they're going off this old information and they haven't made adjustments. And then on top of it, I don't think they're qualified to. I don't think they're qualified. Just like we were talking about a president, like one person who's involved in, uh, the economy and the environment and all these different things, I don't think one governor can really be smart enough to know, A, what kind of impact it's gonna have economically to close all these businesses down, and B, which ones get to open up and what is essential and why? And it's just- it's very frustrating for all involved and it highlights one of the reasons why, you know, the way we do government is k- it's, you know, it's not perfect. It's- it's not- it's definitely better than a lot of ways and a lot of places in the world, but it stills- there's a lot of holes in it.

David Pakman 51:05 Yeah. I share your- I share your frustration with the constantly changing messages, uh, y- you know, what is essential in one state versus in another state. The issue of churches is a big one. I mean, on- on the other hand, um, the- the- in Massachusetts, churches were included in the first phase of reopening, and a lot of public health officials say that doesn't make any sense. And the suspicion is that it's there because of a lot of pressure and that it probably should have been, you know, in phase two or- or maybe even phase three. But I think it's hard to really talk about the state by state without acknowledging the disastrous response from the federal government. And I don't know where you stand on it, you may totally disagree with me on that, and I think that there's a lot of straw men that are being i- put in place to argue that Trump handled it beautifully, to use his term. But I think if you start with the idea of the coordinated federal response we could have had, a lot of these other issues that we're having now just wouldn't be issues. And w- I'm glad to get into it more if- if you want. I don't know if you've talked about that a lot.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Yeah, I think it'd be really interesting to talk about this because what do you think they could have done differently? Like, what do you think-

David Pakman 52:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 52:13 ... the government should have done differently, the federal government?

David Pakman 52:15 Got it. So, here- here's wh- uh, the- the narrative has been a lot of two sides that are arguing. People who just vaguely say, "Trump failed. He didn't do enough and he was slow," without, like, really giving specifics, which I will give. And then on the other hand, you've got a lot of people who are just reflexively defending, "Hey, he shut down travel from China really early and he took it seriously and we've done the most tests," which is a whole other fiasco, uh, t- talking point that we can get into. But for the most part, I think that the- the critiques and the praise is just not tied to real dates. So, in January, we had our first case. January 20th, I think it was, and South Korea had their first case January 20th. Um, we then often skip over February. So, a lot of people will defend Trump by saying, "You're not gonna shut down a country when you've got one case." And I- I totally agree. You're not gonna shut down a country over one case. But you're not gonna shut down a country over 15 cases. There was this point where we had 15 and Trump said, "We've got 15 and soon it's gonna be zero." I don't think that it was logical at that point to say, "Shut it all down." But just to, like, pick a date and then we can work around it. March 5, okay? March 5th, China had 80,000 cases, so we already had proof that, like, this was- this was gonna be big. Italy had 4,000 cases, so this is- this is March 5. So, we already had proof that it'll travel really far and it'll get bad far from China. And we had 221 cases on March 5. It would be very reasonable on March 5th for Trump to say, "This is a problem." FDR-like delivery. I- I- you know, hard to imagine Trump doing that, but, "We've gotta work together. This is gonna be difficult. We're gonna do a 30-day- I need all 50 governors to- to help me on this. Let's do 30 days of stay at home." He probably would have then on April 5th have had to ask for another 30, so we would have done, like, 60 days, March 5 to May 5. And where would we be right now? We'd be in really, really good shape. So, it's really easy to just say, "Dude, you're not gonna shut down a country with five cases."I don't, I, I agree. But we had the information on March 5th, March 10th, March... Well, right, at any one of these points, if we did a real shutdown, we'd be in such good shape.

Joe Rogan 54:39 First of all, I think that the support for a shutdown that early would've been almost zero. I think you would have a really hard time convincing people that this was gonna be that big of a deal and that there wouldn't be something they could do to stop. I think a lot of this is Monday morning cu- quarterbacking, right? We're looking at what happened f- factually, like, we're looking at it in the past. This is when, we're, there was this amount of cases. When it was happening, live, there was a lot of confusion. First of all, the World Health Organization, as recently as January, was saying that according to China, this is what they wrote on a Twit- on a tweet, you, it's not, it doesn't get transmitted from person to person. So, this is in January, right? In March, they were saying, "You don't need a mask." This is, there's been a lot of confusion. It's not like there was, like, real-

David Pakman 55:24 Agree.

Joe Rogan 55:24 ... straightforward, clear advice. It's hard for us, it's so easy for us to sit back, here we are in late May, and say, "Oh, he should've done this, and if he'd done that, everything would've been great." The support for shutting down the whole country for 30 days at the beginning of March was zero. I don't think anybody would've agreed with that.

David Pakman 55:43 There's no question.

Joe Rogan 55:44 So-

David Pakman 55:44 There's no question. And I, I also, I th- I do think we wanna be careful, though, if we, if we write any retrospective analysis off as Monday morning quarterbacking, it's o- then it's not even worth discussing, right? Because we could just say, throw it out, it's Monday morning quarterbacking. I mean, we-

Joe Rogan 55:57 No, you're right, you're right. Yeah. No, it's, it's definitely a v- look, it clearly wasn't perfect, so there's always gonna be room for critique. But, like, what, the idea that we could've shut everything down, (scoffs) boy, that is a su- that is such a hard sell. Remember when Cuomo was saying that they're not gonna shut down New York? That it'd be too hard-

David Pakman 56:16 Yeah, I think-

Joe Rogan 56:16 ... to shut down New York?

David Pakman 56:16 ... Cuomo and de Blasio share... I mean, they're, they're not, you know, they're Democrats and Trump's a Republican. I don't care about that. I mean, certainly, there, there's no doubt that Cuomo and de Blasio, uh, are deserving of some blame here as well. I mean, one other example. There was a period, we'd have to look at COVIDTracking.org to get the exact numbers, but there was a period in either late March or early April where South Korea ... remember, South Korea had their first case the same day we did. Within ou- within, like, six or eight hours. It might've been January 19, 20, or vice versa. But there was a point in late March or early April where South Korea had as many positive tests in a day as we did tests total.

Joe Rogan 56:56 Hmm.

David Pakman 56:57 So, this is really important-

Joe Rogan 56:58 Yeah.

David Pakman 56:58 ... to understand the, the, the discrepancy here.

Joe Rogan 57:00 Yeah.

David Pakman 57:01 They, there was a day where we, like, tested 800 people in the United States, and they did so many tests that they had 800 positive cases. And so, the, the, the slow testing response is a disaster. And it, the proof is, w- you know, we can say it's Monday morning quarterbacking, but South Korea got it right, Taiwan got it right. In terms of places in Europe, Greece did really well, New Zealand did really well. So, we may be looking at it retrospectively, but there were examples of countries that were on the ball with testing and it made a huge difference.

Joe Rogan 57:35 Yeah, it did. Uh, th- there's no doubt about that. And, David, maybe you would know the an- answer to this. Wasn't there, there was some sort of a ta- pandemic department that was, uh, people were moved out of that department and it sort of was absorbed?

David Pakman 57:48 Yes. So, there's, so, so there's video of this. It's so funny because Trump was asked about this at a press briefing a couple months ago. This was when Anthony Fauci was still allowed in public. And-

Joe Rogan 57:59 (laughs)

David Pakman 57:59 ... when the question, when the question was asked, "Why did you shut down the pandemic response team?" Trump turned, the video's out there, Trump turned and said, "I, I don't know anything. Ant- Tony, do you know anything about that?" There's video of Trump from 2018 bragging about shutting that down.

Joe Rogan 58:13 Oh, my God.

David Pakman 58:14 So, to get back to our cognitive decline thing, is it possible Trump literally had no memory of that when he was asked about it a couple months ago? Maybe.

Joe Rogan 58:21 Yes, there is. Here's why. Here's why I think that.

David Pakman 58:24 Yeah. Okay.

Joe Rogan 58:24 My brain, my memory's going to shit, and I think-

David Pakman 58:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:27 ... one of the reason why my memory's going to shit is I do too many things. I have too many podcasts going, there's too many subjects. I'm, I'm researching too many different topics for future guests and, and, I, I really feel like you can only have so much data in your head. I, I, I really, you know what that, um, what Dunbar's number is?

David Pakman 58:46 Yeah. It's, it, it's related to s- it's some number of items, right? That you can keep track of simultaneously.

Joe Rogan 58:51 It's humans.

David Pakman 58:52 Oh, two hundred.

Joe Rogan 58:52 Humans that you can have some sort of a-

David Pakman 58:53 Oh, one thousand.

Joe Rogan 58:53 ... by name relationship, recognize their face, people that you know are going to be in your circle of humans you interact with.

David Pakman 59:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:01 It's Dunbar's number, and it's r- somewhere around 150, and they think it's based on how we evolved in these small tribes, and we, you know, we've evolved to know the people that are around us and that's all the database you needed. You didn't, you didn't need a full terabyte for people's names and addresses. You just needed 150 of 'em. I think that's the case with everything, and I think when you see a guy like Trump and he's got fucking towers all over the place with his name on it, and how many different businesses is he juggling and all these different deals going on, and he's cheating at golf and all this different crazy shit.

David Pakman 59:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:32 I mean, there's so much data, and then on top of it-

David Pakman 59:36 But isn't he supposedly not doing it? Like, as far as they've told us, he hasn't been involved in his businesses for three and a half years. You're saying he's at his-

Joe Rogan 59:42 Yeah, but he's still got some-

David Pakman 59:43 ... he is?

Joe Rogan 59:43 ... he must have something to do with it. There's, I mean, just the fact-

David Pakman 59:45 I believe, I believe that.

Joe Rogan 59:46 Like, this has been something that people say to me. Like, "Hey, I'd love you to get involved in this business," and I always say, "I don't have any time." They go, "Well, you wouldn't need the time." Well, it doesn't matter. I would need the time because then I'd have to think about it. If I give you money, now I have to think, like, "Oh, what's that money? What, what are, what's happening over there?" That's one more thing. It's one more unit of the mental bandwidth that you have. This fucking guy is taxed out. He's taxed out with just the arguments that he's getting with the press. Just think about how much that's, how much real estate that's taking up in his head, right? And then you think about the disease, you think about restarting the economy, you think about... He very well might not remember bragging about disbanding the pandemic team. It's very possible.

David Pakman 1:00:26 Okay, may- maybe he doesn't. To your question, there was this pandemic response team. He disbanded it in 2018, and he sort of bragged that, uh-... "Hey, you know, we're, we're not gonna do stuff where we don't need these people. We just don't, they're not really doing much, so we just, we don't really need them." So, he did do that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Whoops.

David Pakman 1:00:42 So this thing, so this thing about the press though, um, you know, and he's busy with, between the press and the virus and reopening and all this different stuff. I don't know if you saw the reports that he often gets into what we would call work, like, at noon or later after watching, like, five or even more hours of, of TV and tweeting.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 (laughs)

David Pakman 1:00:59 It doesn't strike me that he's that busy with actual work.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 (laughs) I think he is and he isn't. I think he, it's still taking up bandwidth in his head.

David Pakman 1:01:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 But look, it, it is so American that he does that.

David Pakman 1:01:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 You know what I'm saying? I mean, and not in the best way possible, but it's so ... W- we're so comical in so many ways that our president, he's eating junk food and watching TV-

David Pakman 1:01:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 ... and tweeting, angry tweeting at people while he's watching Fox News.

David Pakman 1:01:28 It's, so, so, okay. Here's the point I wanna make about that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Okay.

David Pakman 1:01:33 One of the things that scares me about the way that this president is sometimes covered by, um ... Sometimes it's people who call themselves centrists or sometimes it's people who say, "I'm just, I'm just reporting facts and not giving an opinion." Or whatever. One of the things that really scares me is that this is being treated like a normal presidency when, as you're pointing out, it's really not a normal presidency. And the a- the analogy that I would sort of apply to it would be, like, imagine that you're doing UFC commentary. And I'm re-, I'm going, this is like me going out on a limb because I, this is not my area of expertise, but let's see if the analogy will work. Imagine that one of the fighters comes in and he, at one point, tries to light his opponent on fire.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 (laughs)

David Pakman 1:02:18 And you as a commentator say, "This is an unusual strategy that's very aggressive." You're treating it like it's within the realm of normality-

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 Right. (laughs)

David Pakman 1:02:28 ... when this is the, a destruction of the system, right? Like, what is ... It's not an aggressive strategy. This is crazy, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Right. That's a great analogy.

David Pakman 1:02:35 And that's what scares me. It scares me because I see, you know ... So, I, I like to use the term enlightened centrist. And it's a little bit pejorative, but it's someone who believes themselves to be above the fray of the, of the bias, of the left/right stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Mm-hmm.

David Pakman 1:02:49 Where they'll say, "You know, listen. Yeah, Trump kind of has a different way of talking about politics, but I think he's pretty good on trade."

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 (laughs)

David Pakman 1:02:56 It's like, what are you talking about? And that really scares me because there's like a normalization going on that's, that's crazy to me.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Well, there's also a thing that we desire as humans that's for our leaders to exhibit virtue and, and, and dignity. There's, there's like a thing, we expect them to be a statesman or a statewoman, right? You expect them to ... Like, Tulsi Gabbard's an excellent example of that to me, of someone who, who speaks like someone that I would appreciate addressing the nation in some sort of a disastrous state. Like, if something was going wrong, I would want someone who speaks the way she speaks talking about it. You know, there's, there's a, a certain ... Cuomo has it. There's a certain characteristic that you would want from someone who is in a position of leadership. Like, I get a certain amount of calm out of listening to him break down the current situations and what they're doing to remedy and mitigate all the problems in New York. And you, when you think about it, New York got hit harder than anywhere in the plan- or excuse me, anywhere ... I guess anywhere on the planet, right? It turned into a city?

David Pakman 1:03:59 I think that, I mean, yeah. I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Yeah. So, at this point it's p- anywhere on the planet. I mean, he's done a remarkable job of exhibiting all the characteristics. Whether or not you think his decisions were correct or not, 'cause there's some real arguments, especially with the early days of letting, uh, old people go back to nursing homes when they had tested, and that's obviously horrible. Um, but the way he communicates, he communicates like a guy that you would feel comfortable he's gonna make good decisions. That guy, that, he, he seems like a president.

David Pakman 1:04:29 Yeah. And I think that this is why, you know, ev- a, a lot of mistakes have been made during this. A- and a lot of it came from, like you're pointing out, we had incomplete information.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Right.

David Pakman 1:04:38 Masks are good, then they don't work. It's transmitted through droplet versus how much is happening via surfaces. And it's, you know, dangerous for this group versus this ... A lot of mistakes were made because of lack of information, but not everybody was saying stuff like, "15 cases will soon be zero. Anybody who wants a test can get a test. It'll wash-"

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 Right.

David Pakman 1:05:00 "... through by April and we're not gonna have cases by the ..." That stuff, that, that's a, has a very particular effect on people who wa- basically want a license to go out and act however they wanna act regardless of what the facts are. And that's why it's been so dangerous to see that stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 Well, it also is dangerous because people dismiss some of the things that he said when he was talking about, like, using, uh, L- UV inside the body as a disinfectant or-

David Pakman 1:05:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 ... using Lysol as a clea-, you know, maybe a cleaning, he was saying. One of the problems that came out of this, I don't know if you're aware of this, there was a publicly traded biotech company that had a concept for UV light that would go in through ... When someone was intubated, you would go in through the same tube and they would use that UV light and it would kill the virus from inside. That is something that ... UV light actually does work to kill bacteria and viruses. In fact, uh, I, at my house, I have a cellphone cleaner. You put it in there and you close it and it uses UV light to kill all those things. I mean, this is something that they've, they've had forever. Uh, in SteriPens. A SteriPen is something that, uh, backpackers and hikers use. You can take water out of a creek and you take this light bulb, it's like a long wand, and you wave it for a certain amount of time in the water and that UV light kills all the bacteria.

David Pakman 1:06:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 Um, so this company had this product that was going to use that UV light through the tube and they got pulled off of Twitter. They got their, their account got banned because it looked like something that was aligning with what Trump said. Even though it's legitimate science. And-

David Pakman 1:06:40 Okay. So-

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 It, it was real ... That was a real issue.

David Pakman 1:06:43 So, so, let's, uh, there's a bunch there and I, I, know you, I wanna get to the Twitter stuff 'cause I, I know about... I saw the, when you talked to Bridget over the weekend about the regulation of social media and I wanna talk about... I don't know the, this one, so-

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Okay.

David Pakman 1:06:56 ... I can't say too much about it. But, so, so Trump (laughs) mentioned in that wondering aloud, he said, "What if you hit the body with heat or light?"

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 Yes.

David Pakman 1:07:06 And what if you put the disinfectants that were up on the TV behind him inside the body?

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 Right.

David Pakman 1:07:11 So, we got, like, four things.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Yeah.

David Pakman 1:07:12 Four things that he mentioned, right? So, UV light, heat, uh, and I think isopropyl and bleach were the four-

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 (clears throat)

David Pakman 1:07:19 ... elements, so to speak, to use his term, that were up on the screen behind him. After the fact, it was, there, there were these couple papers about this UV technology and a couple people on Twitter started saying, "This is the stuff Trump was referring to." And it's like, no he wasn't.

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 No.

David Pakman 1:07:37 Trump said, "I don't know anything about this. I'm asking you-"

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 Right.

David Pakman 1:07:41 "... is this something we might look at?"

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 He was winging it.

David Pakman 1:07:43 So, he was winging it. He was completely winging it.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Yeah.

David Pakman 1:07:45 So, so that's number one. After the fact, that's Monday morning quarterbacking, going through, uh, PubMed and saying, "Here's something I found with UV light. I'm sure it was what Trump meant when he said, 'Hit the body.'"

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 Yes, for sure.

David Pakman 1:07:56 Or whatever, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 Yeah.

David Pakman 1:07:57 So that, that's number one. But in, in terms... (laughs) That, this is kind of an example of, like, that was a wacky statement. That was an out of control statement that I can't imagine almost any other politician wondering aloud about.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 (laughs)

David Pakman 1:08:10 But there is nothing that this guy's defenders, uh, supporters, won't defend. Like, he could-

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 Right.

David Pakman 1:08:16 It doesn't matter. It doesn't-

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Yes.

David Pakman 1:08:17 It, it, you know, that's the scary thing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 That is a scary thing. And that was, that was the, one of the weirdest ones to try to justify.

David Pakman 1:08:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Just, I think the correct response was he was winging it. He obviously-

David Pakman 1:08:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:29 ... didn't know what he was talking about and he was, like, asking questions. He was throwing some questions around. They just weren't good ones, right? And I mean, like, say if you or I, like, I don't know much about, um, you know, internal combustion engines. Uh, I, I don't really understand 'em that much. I kind of know there's spark plugs and there's, you know, fuel injection, but I don't really know what the fuck's going on. If I had to explain it to somebody, like, how the gas gets converted into energy and how the pistons go up and something fires and what's reg-... I don't... I would be doing... So I'd go, oh, it's probably, you gotta get the gas in there and the fire and then it's exploding and, uh, you know, it would be similar to the way he was-

David Pakman 1:09:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 ... describing using disinfectants on people.

David Pakman 1:09:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 But one of the things that I think he did say was something about getting light in the body. I think he did say something about getting light in the body. Um-

David Pakman 1:09:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 Yeah.

David Pakman 1:09:16 He listed it and said, "Is that something you can look into?" You know, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 Yeah, he got stuck. He got stuck rambling and he just-

David Pakman 1:09:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 ... kept going. And, and it's probably pretty safe to assume he enjoys some kind of stimulant. And I-

David Pakman 1:09:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 ... I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's legal or illegal and I, I think, you know, if he was taking all that ephedrine that he had in his, uh, remember in that famous picture where he was-

David Pakman 1:09:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 ... eating the taco bowl, that-

David Pakman 1:09:43 So, someone wrote to me and said that it, it, it is true. There's this picture where Trump tweeted he loves Hispanics. I don't know if you-

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 Yes. (laughs)

David Pakman 1:09:50 ... remember that tweet. That was after-

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 And he was eating-

David Pakman 1:09:52 ... he had said crazy shit about Mexicans-

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Right.

David Pakman 1:09:55 ... possibly coming over here to rape and murder. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 Exactly, exactly.

David Pakman 1:09:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:59 And there's a picture where if, there's an open drawer over his ru- left shoulder and there's a bunch of, uh, Sudafed packs in the... Yeah, exactly. And I, I-

David Pakman 1:10:09 Come on, if, if I was gonna, like, get people to, like, uh, "I would... H- hold on, let me open up this drawer real quick. All right, now take the picture." Like, just, (laughs) like, just to fuck with people. Just to sh-... Like, "Let's put a needle and a baggie-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:21 "... and a spoon in there. Just don't say nothing."

David Pakman 1:10:24 So, some, someone wrote to me though and said that that version of Sudafed, which is I guess the UK version-

Joe Rogan 1:10:28 Yeah.

David Pakman 1:10:29 ... doesn't contain the same stimulant that the American version has. I don't know the truth, but I wanna make sure we're careful about what we say.

Joe Rogan 1:10:36 Yeah, we should be careful.

David Pakman 1:10:37 I just