Joe Rogan Experience #1485 - Krystal & Saagar

1. 0:02 – 1:23

   Why honest, long-form political talk feels rare (and why their show works)

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Here we go. We're rolling. What's up? Good to see you guys.

   2. SESaagar Enjeti0:05

      Good to see you, Joe.

   3. KBKrystal Ball0:05

      Good, good to see you too. Thanks for having us.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      It's always weird to meet somebody when you watch a lot of their YouTube content-

   5. SESaagar Enjeti0:10

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      ... or TV con-, and then, then you're like, "You're real!"

   7. SESaagar Enjeti0:13

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      And I can touch your hands.

   9. KBKrystal Ball0:14

      (laughs)

   10. SESaagar Enjeti0:14

       That's how I feel about you, man. That's like ... (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       Let's ... You know, we all feel about each other that way.

   12. SESaagar Enjeti0:19

       Yeah, right. (laughs)

   13. KBKrystal Ball0:20

       It is a strange dynamic.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       You get the ... I, I love you guys.

   15. KBKrystal Ball0:23

       Oh, thank you.

   16. SESaagar Enjeti0:23

       I mean, big fan. Thank you.

   17. KBKrystal Ball0:24

       Thank you. Well, same. We feel the same.

   18. SESaagar Enjeti0:25

       For sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       You guys are honest.

   20. SESaagar Enjeti0:27

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       I mean, we were, we were talking about that earlier, like it's so rare that someone is just calling it like it is, like what you see. And, uh, obviously you guys don't agree on everything, and n- you know, no one does, but, right? We all have varying opinions, but you say what you feel. And that is so valuable today. It's so unusual. It's just such a weird, partisan time.

   22. KBKrystal Ball0:48

       It is a weird, partisan time. Like it's never been harder to actually just do that thing, and I can't say, I mean, we don't get it right all the time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Mm-hmm.

   24. KBKrystal Ball0:56

       But the whole idea was to try to have this conversation between kind of the new left and the new right that wasn't happening at any- anywhere in a way that was valuing people's humanity, that was trying to deal in the land of the honest, not cheerleading a team or the other, but actually trying to, like, be straightforward about what we think and evaluating the facts as we find them, and, I mean, I have to say, like, you have somewhat created that space where that can happen. So, I think we're in part indebted to you.

2. 1:23 – 5:28

   Inside DC’s talking-point machine: access, money, and credentialism

   1. SESaagar Enjeti1:23

      Yeah, well it's a- absolutely, and you know, it's crazy to me, I think the reason it works is because we both kind of came up in quasi-traditional background, right? Like, Krystal came from the MSNBC world, like, I was a White House correspondent. Like, I worked with a lot of these traditional reporters and, like, you know, I would do Fox News and, and all these other things, and you just, it's always so frustrating when you're on TV. You get three and a half minutes to talk, right? Like, I once did a segment on, you know, nationalism, which was two, two and a half minutes with three people on a pl- on a panel. Like, how are you supposed to get your point across? And so when you're, when you're doing that, and you see, like ... So you can make an entire career in DC just sticking to the party line no matter what these people believe, and you just spit out the talkers-

   2. KBKrystal Ball2:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SESaagar Enjeti2:02

      ... that they literally send you. They l- will send you talking points. They just say over and over again-

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:06

      What is that like? P- pull that-

   5. SESaagar Enjeti2:07

      Yeah, go ahead.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:07

      Pull that sucker-

   7. SESaagar Enjeti2:08

      Sure.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Pull that sucker out.

   9. SESaagar Enjeti2:08

      Oh, for sure.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       What is, what is that like? What is th- what is the talking po-, like, you get a sheet?

   11. SESaagar Enjeti2:12

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       We would like you-

   13. SESaagar Enjeti2:13

       Yeah, an email.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       ... to discuss ... What i- like, what i- what kind o'-

   15. SESaagar Enjeti2:14

       Message of the day. Here's the message of the day. Here are your talking points, top line. Then you go and you turn on Fox News. You can hear it come out of their voice. You turn on-

   16. KBKrystal Ball2:21

       Literally word for word. (laughs)

   17. SESaagar Enjeti2:22

       Turn on MSNBC. You can hear it word for word, from the Biden campaign to their surrogates. It's all planned, man. Like, it's all from ... Sure enough, nobody actually thinks for themself, and that, when we came together, like, when we were hosting a show, that's what set us apart. I mean, and I think that's why it's caught on.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:37

       What's the incentive? Like, is it the incentive to access?

   19. SESaagar Enjeti2:40

       Money. Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:41

       But I mean, for you to stay with the party line, with whatever-

   21. KBKrystal Ball2:43

       Oh, it's, it's a lot safer. I mean, you know-

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:45

       Hmm.

   23. KBKrystal Ball2:46

       ... it's not easy to sort of be out there on your own, you know, and I, and I don't wanna paint just sort of trying to be honest as a more noble act than it actually is. But it's very safe if you're within the party structure, if you're saying the things that they want you to say. There's a whole system set up for that. There's a career system set up for that. There's a system of protection, so you're allowed to be dramatically wrong on things like the Iraq War, or things like the financial crisis-

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:11

       Hmm.

   25. KBKrystal Ball3:11

       ... if you're wrong in the approved ways, right?

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       Mm-hmm.

   27. KBKrystal Ball3:15

       If you're wrong in the non-approved ways, then you can get destroyed, canceled, all of those things.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:21

       Yeah.

   29. KBKrystal Ball3:21

       So, it's a lot safer to stay within the bounds. And, and look, like, we're living that in real time right now.

   30. SESaagar Enjeti3:27

       Oh, my God.
3. 5:28 – 6:51

   Existential stakes and a country coming apart

   1. KBKrystal Ball5:28

      But can I say, also-

   2. SESaagar Enjeti5:29

      Yeah.

   3. KBKrystal Ball5:29

      ... it's not just that, like, direct career grift trajectory. It's also that we're at this point in the nation's history, which again, has never been more obvious than right now, where the stakes feel really existential.

   4. SESaagar Enjeti5:42

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:42

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KBKrystal Ball5:42

      And, you know, and that's, that's a real thing. I mean, w- before Trump's election, there was this Flight 93 essay, where the, the argument was, look, if you're a social conservative, if you're not sure that this Trump guy is for you, this election is existential. You have to grab the controls, or else our way of life is going to die. Now, I don't agree with that as- assessment. I think that is hyperbolic. I think it's over the top. You know, the conservative way of life is gonna continue, and their churches, and people can do what they wanna do. But that's the, that was a legitimate sense among the Trump base. And of course, we see it with th- the Democrats and the left right now, um, and I would say, at this moment, it has probably never been more true, um, in terms of that existential nature, as we see, you know, the president calling for potentially military activation in American cities, and we see him, you know, using tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protestors. So, the fact that the stakes feel so existential on both sides make it very, very difficult to engage in a way that is-... thoughtful, honest, non-hyperbolic, and where everyone's not just basically mad at you all the time.

   7. SESaagar Enjeti6:51

      Mm-hmm.

4. 6:51 – 13:07

   How Rising started: a different left/right alignment

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:51

      How did you guys start your show?

   2. SESaagar Enjeti6:53

      Well, I mean, it's a, it's a crazy story. So Kristel was co-hosting previously, um, and this was before kind of the show was on YouTube. Um, and I think I, fair to say it was more, like, standard left/right-

   3. KBKrystal Ball7:03

      Yeah. It was sort of more of a standard left/right kind of dynamic. Our politics-

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:06

      What year are we talk-

   5. KBKrystal Ball7:06

      ... didn't ha-... This was just, you know, when did we-

   6. SESaagar Enjeti7:08

      Two year- two years ago?

   7. KBKrystal Ball7:08

      Yeah.

   8. SESaagar Enjeti7:08

      So I started o- on the sh- I think I took on the show June-

   9. KBKrystal Ball7:11

      Last year.

   10. SESaagar Enjeti7:12

       ... yeah, about exactly-

   11. KBKrystal Ball7:13

       A year ago.

   12. SESaagar Enjeti7:13

       ... a year ago.

   13. KBKrystal Ball7:13

       Yeah. So before that, for about a year before that, I'd been co-hosting with another guy, great guy, Buck Sexton, and we had sort of a more standard left/right dynamic.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:21

       Sounds like a porn star. (laughs)

   15. SESaagar Enjeti7:22

       (laughs)

   16. KBKrystal Ball7:22

       (laughs) Well-

   17. SESaagar Enjeti7:23

       He'll love, he'll love that you said that.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       Kristel-

   19. KBKrystal Ball7:24

       Kristel Ball and Buck Sexton.

   20. SESaagar Enjeti7:25

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:25

       Yeah. For real.

   22. KBKrystal Ball7:26

       Imagine that. Yeah.

   23. SESaagar Enjeti7:27

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:27

       Kind of hilarious, yeah.

   25. KBKrystal Ball7:28

       Anyway... (laughs) Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:31

       (laughs)

   27. KBKrystal Ball7:31

       Buck-

   28. SESaagar Enjeti7:31

       But I used to fill in for Buck-

   29. KBKrystal Ball7:33

       Right.

   30. SESaagar Enjeti7:33

       ... kind of when he was gone, and Kristel and I, like, we, I mean, we found, like, we would click on certain issues, right? Like, especially on... The, these are the things you see on the show, like on economics, on the indictment of the economic system, about-
5. 13:07 – 15:37

   The Andrew Yang interview that proved people want substance

   1. KBKrystal Ball13:07

      So you know what was the... You'll actually relate to this.

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:09

      Yeah, he'll love us. (laughs)

   3. KBKrystal Ball13:09

      The, the first thing that really caught was we did an interview with Andrew Yang.

   4. SESaagar Enjeti13:13

      Yep.

   5. KBKrystal Ball13:14

      And I've actually known, I've known Andrew for a long time.

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:16

      Love that guy.

   7. KBKrystal Ball13:17

      Great guy.

   8. SESaagar Enjeti13:18

      Yeah.

   9. KBKrystal Ball13:18

      Just, you know, say, like, trying to be honest.

   10. SESaagar Enjeti13:20

       Yes.

   11. KBKrystal Ball13:20

       Trying to, like, really figure things out. And his answer may not always be my answer, but I feel like he's really trying to, to figure it out and come to a good place and see the best in people also.

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:29

       Yes.

   13. KBKrystal Ball13:29

       And so, we did this long-form interview with him where, I mean, there was nothing crazy about it. We just actually asked him policy-focused substantive questions for, I don't know, 30 minutes.

   14. SESaagar Enjeti13:42

       Yes, it w- I think it was, like, 30 minutes.

   15. KBKrystal Ball13:43

       And it blew up.

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:44

       People loved it.

   17. KBKrystal Ball13:44

       And people loved it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:46

       Yeah.

   19. KBKrystal Ball13:46

       And we're like, "Whoa."

   20. SESaagar Enjeti13:48

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:48

       (laughs)

   22. KBKrystal Ball13:48

       This is... And I'm talking, I mean, before that, we were getting like 100 views on our videos.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:51

       Oh, yeah.

   24. SESaagar Enjeti13:52

       Yeah.

   25. KBKrystal Ball13:52

       I mean, I'm serious. Like, we put it on YouTube-

   26. SESaagar Enjeti13:53

       I went and I looked at some of the stats. (laughs)

   27. KBKrystal Ball13:54

       ... it was like five... We were feeling, oh my god, we got 1,000 views on that one, right?

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:58

       (laughs)

   29. KBKrystal Ball13:58

       And then Andrew, we post this Andrew Yang video, and it's just like (imitates explosion) , blows up. And we thought, "Wow, this is really, really interesting." So...

   30. SESaagar Enjeti14:05

       Well, it was because of the questions we asked. It was like, you were asking him about not just UBI, which is what he's known for, about, like, Medicare for all and all that. And I was asking about-
6. 15:37 – 21:48

   Twitter politics, villain-making, and ‘Hate Inc.’ media incentives

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      Yeah, I think some of that has to do with this, this, this quality of posting things on social media.

   2. SESaagar Enjeti15:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      Like, this 140 character, now 280 character quality of Twitter, where you're just kind of condensing things. And it's re- this reductionist view of stuff, and then just put it out there. "Oh, he's racist."

   4. SESaagar Enjeti15:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:57

      "Oh, he's sexist. Oh, he's supported by white nationalists."

   6. SESaagar Enjeti16:01

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:01

      So, and then boom, that's the narrative. Stick with it. There's no nuance. Run.

   8. KBKrystal Ball16:05

      Yeah.

   9. SESaagar Enjeti16:06

      And think, think about that, right? The caus- the, the, just like the sheer amount of arrogance it takes to just sum up somebody in, like, 280 characters and just be like, "This person is a racist."

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       I think it's-

   11. SESaagar Enjeti16:16

       They don't even acknowledge the... I mean, do they know what it means to call somebody that, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       I don't think it's a real statement.

   13. SESaagar Enjeti16:22

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       It's just like, you're saying it, right? But it's one person talking to the ether.

   15. SESaagar Enjeti16:27

       Yeah.

   16. KBKrystal Ball16:27

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Right? There's no one saying... Like, says who?

   18. SESaagar Enjeti16:30

       Mm-hmm.

   19. KBKrystal Ball16:30

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       So he's... Andrew Yang is not a fucking white nationalist.

   21. KBKrystal Ball16:33

       (laughs)

   22. SESaagar Enjeti16:33

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:33

       Like, what are you talking about, man? Like, you need someone in front of you going, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

   24. KBKrystal Ball16:38

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Like he, he... Oh, he knows those guys are supporting him?

   26. SESaagar Enjeti16:41

       Yeah. Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       And so he's going out of his way to, to court them?

   28. KBKrystal Ball16:43

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Is that what you're saying?

   30. KBKrystal Ball16:44

       Right. Right.
7. 21:48 – 27:10

   Social media as addiction: dopamine loops, vacations, and flip phones

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:48

      I think there's something about using social media that also facilitates mental illness. And this is what I m- what I mean. Um, like, we all have varying degrees of health, right?

   2. SESaagar Enjeti22:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:00

      Some days you're rundown. Some days you feel great. Some days you're- you're coming down with a cold. Some days you're in bed with the flu. We all vary. I think that there's something about the kind of interactions that people are having when they're arguing with shit on Twitter, that you could make a- a real... I think you could draw a graph on- on human beings, on- on their- their mental health.

   4. SESaagar Enjeti22:21

      Oh, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:22

      And how much are you using social media and how many interactions are you having where you're arguing with people-

   6. KBKrystal Ball22:28

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:29

      ... and how do you feel?

   8. KBKrystal Ball22:29

      Right.

   9. SESaagar Enjeti22:29

      Well, it's funny, Joe. That- that actually happened to me, is... Look, I spend all day on Twitter. I absolutely shouldn't.

   10. KBKrystal Ball22:34

       (laughs)

   11. SESaagar Enjeti22:35

       I mean, literally hours and hours.

   12. KBKrystal Ball22:36

       We need to have an intervention.

   13. SESaagar Enjeti22:37

       I stop, I stop myself-

   14. KBKrystal Ball22:38

       (laughs)

   15. SESaagar Enjeti22:38

       ... from getting into Twit- I stop myself from getting into most Twitter fights.

   16. KBKrystal Ball22:41

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:41

       Please stay off of it-

   18. SESaagar Enjeti22:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       ... the few days after this podcast-

   20. SESaagar Enjeti22:45

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:45

       ... comes out, 'cause the fucking tsunami-

   22. KBKrystal Ball22:47

       (laughs) It's gonna be ugly.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:47

       ... is coming your way.

   24. SESaagar Enjeti22:48

       I know. A lot of shit is coming.

   25. KBKrystal Ball22:49

       (laughs)

   26. SESaagar Enjeti22:49

       But-

   27. KBKrystal Ball22:50

       Good advice.

   28. SESaagar Enjeti22:50

       ... I did, I took like a vacation right before I ca- I started taking over the show. I spent like 10 days off Twitter. And that's when the Mueller report came out. And I ma- I was like, "I'm not... No Twitter." And I just read it in the paper, or I read, actually went, found the link, read the whole r-... It was amazing.

   29. JRJoe Rogan23:05

       Yes.

   30. SESaagar Enjeti23:06

       It was ama-
8. 27:10 – 32:23

   Elite hypocrisy and corruption: revolving doors, speeches, and ‘legal’ grift

   1. SESaagar Enjeti27:10

      My favorite example on that is, uh, there was a, uh, like a 10-year birthday party for AIG, which is, you know, the big insurance giant-

   2. JRJoe Rogan27:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SESaagar Enjeti27:18

      ... that we bailed out in 2008. In the committee room for the House Ways and Means, which is the committee in charge of taxing in the United States. So, in the committee room, they held a birthday party for the company that they bailed out. Democrats and Republicans all showed up, man. They had special-

   4. JRJoe Rogan27:33

      (laughs) Oh, God.

   5. SESaagar Enjeti27:33

      They had fucking specialty cocktails at this thing. And I was like-

   6. JRJoe Rogan27:36

      Like what kind of specialty cocktails?

   7. SESaagar Enjeti27:37

      I don't even know. It was like, "Oh, we're gonna do special." I, I, I, I don't even know what it w-

   8. KBKrystal Ball27:41

      (laughs)

   9. SESaagar Enjeti27:41

      I was ... I was s- I was like, this is unbeli- in the committee room, in the very room to decide, do- where they decided to bail these companies out to the tune of billions, to tu- you know, and during Wall Street and so much more. They're throwing birthday parties for these people.

   10. JRJoe Rogan27:54

       Well, it's all hilarious.

   11. SESaagar Enjeti27:54

       It's never been more out in the open.

   12. JRJoe Rogan27:55

       We were trying to figure out how Nancy Pelosi made all her money. We were like, but-

   13. SESaagar Enjeti27:58

       It's her husband, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:59

       Is that right?

   15. SESaagar Enjeti28:00

       I think. I think it's ... I think so.

   16. JRJoe Rogan28:01

       How'd he-

   17. SESaagar Enjeti28:01

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:01

       ... make his money?

   19. SESaagar Enjeti28:02

       I do- I don't know. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:03

       There has to be some-

   21. SESaagar Enjeti28:04

       What if her dad was like a-

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:05

       ... shenanigans going on there.

   23. SESaagar Enjeti28:06

       ... he was like the Baltimore mayor or something. I don't know.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:08

       But with just the amount of money-

   25. SESaagar Enjeti28:10

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:10

       ... that's involved in these decisions, the amount of money that's involved in the, you know, an influence and sharing influence and, and g- getting people to like your perspective.

   27. SESaagar Enjeti28:21

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan28:21

       And then the really gross thing is when they leave office, when politicians, particularly the president, leaves office, and then they get these fantastic paydays-

   29. KBKrystal Ball28:28

       Oh, yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:29

       ... to just speak.
9. 32:23 – 35:50

   From COVID despair to George Floyd protests: thin veneer of order breaks

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:23

      I mean, w- we've never experienced anything like this before and it's fascinating to see how the thin vis- veneer of civilization can be chipped through. And you just see the- the really deep pool of despair that's underneath it as there's so much madness going on in the streets today. And it's so hard to get a bead on how this is all playing out, like how it's all being organized, how these cops feel like they can just shoot people with rubber bullets and tear gas out in the open-

   2. KBKrystal Ball32:51

      Insane.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:51

      ... in front of everybody.

   4. KBKrystal Ball32:52

      When people are, I mean, you know-

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:54

      Mourning the death of a guy who was murdered by a bad cop.

   6. KBKrystal Ball32:56

      And where it's on cam- I mean-

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:58

      Yes.

   8. KBKrystal Ball32:58

      ... that's what we saw on CNN.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      Yes.

   10. KBKrystal Ball32:59

       We're watching live, peaceful protesters-

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       Having reporters getting shot.

   12. KBKrystal Ball33:04

       Reporters getting shot, get- getting arrested.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:06

       Yes.

   14. KBKrystal Ball33:06

       And- and to think, oh, it's just rubber bullets. I mean, have you seen these wounds that people-

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       Listen, horrible.

   16. KBKrystal Ball33:10

       Like this is tear gas, rubber bullets-

   17. SESaagar Enjeti33:12

       Yeah.

   18. KBKrystal Ball33:12

       ... flashbang grenades used on-

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       People losing eyes.

   20. SESaagar Enjeti33:14

       That was terrible, that photojournalist.

   21. KBKrystal Ball33:16

       ... peaceful pro- It's, absolutely-

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       Yes. Well, it's, you know, some-

   23. KBKrystal Ball33:17

       Her- She's actually a friend of mine, Linda.

   24. SESaagar Enjeti33:19

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       She really lost her eye?

   26. KBKrystal Ball33:20

       Yeah.

   27. SESaagar Enjeti33:21

       Yeah.

   28. KBKrystal Ball33:21

       Blind in that eye.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       (sighs)

   30. KBKrystal Ball33:22

       It's horrific. And you- and, uh, just a- a beat on her because she's, um, she's actually a really important voice. She came to prominence because she wrote a piece about the struggle that she had experienced as a low-income working class person, like just really raw and honest. And that went viral. And she, from that, was able to write a book and become a journalist. So she's one of the few journalist voices who actually has any connectivity to what regular people go through day-to-day.
10. 35:50 – 1:07:15

    Debating looting vs protest and the role of military/National Guard

    1. JRJoe Rogan35:50

       Here's where- where I disagree. Protestors should be allowed to protest.

    2. KBKrystal Ball35:53

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan35:54

       There's a giant difference between what those people are doing when they're saying, "This is outrageous. We need change. We need a radical overhaul-"

    4. KBKrystal Ball36:01

       Right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan36:01

       "... of the- the system-"

    6. KBKrystal Ball36:02

       Right.

    7. JRJoe Rogan36:02

       "... because there's too many corrupt cops." Let those people do what they're doing.

    8. SESaagar Enjeti36:06

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       But they're not looting.

    10. KBKrystal Ball36:08

        Right, that's-

    11. JRJoe Rogan36:08

        The looters are different people.

    12. KBKrystal Ball36:09

        Right.

    13. SESaagar Enjeti36:10

        This has been- this has been the hardest thing for Krystal and I to cover. Like, uh, it's funny 'cause we were coming on here, and we were like...

    14. KBKrystal Ball36:17

        (laughs)

    15. SESaagar Enjeti36:17

        And we know all the attention is c- And it's like this, there is nothing else that- where the battle lines are so drawn, where, frankly, there's probably the biggest difference in our philosophy on this. 'Cause I agree with you, Joe. I mean, I think, and I've told this to Krystal, which is that the beacon was sent out. When that Minneapolis mayor let that target go, and they let those affordable housing complexes burn, and they let the policing burn, that was it. And it was just all across the city. And thes- this was an intentional choice. This was out of political correctness. They're like, "We don't want to deploy the police because that would seem like we're impugning upon these protesters and we're- we're," you know, whatever. And they allowed... I mean, they allowed this target and this... and it just went and it caught fire. And that's why, like, as he said, look, if people want... People should be able to protest in this country. And if there are piece-of-shit cops who kick them in the face, you know, I've seen terrible videos of some of these things, some of the things that they're doing, awful. But you can't allow looting. You can't-

    16. KBKrystal Ball37:11

        Right.

    17. SESaagar Enjeti37:11

        ... allow these businesses... I mean, uh, and this is the thing I wanna emphasize. I mean, these... Look, people are like, "Oh, you know, pr- it's just property." But, and sometimes it's corporate property, but sometimes this is a whole guy's life. You think that guy-

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:21

        Yes.

    19. SESaagar Enjeti37:21

        ... has insurance?

    20. KBKrystal Ball37:22

        But, you know, here's the thing and why the- where there's such hypocrisy, not from Saagar, who's been consistent on this, but from the right in general, is like, the response to coronavirus lit 40% of small businesses on fire.

    21. JRJoe Rogan37:32

        Yep.

    22. KBKrystal Ball37:32

        They didn't give a fuck.

    23. SESaagar Enjeti37:33

        Right.

    24. KBKrystal Ball37:33

        They didn't care. It's opportunistic caring about it now, mostly from the right. And there's also, look, if you think about-

    25. JRJoe Rogan37:41

        Well, I think-

    26. KBKrystal Ball37:41

        ... if you think about rule of law, right, you think about law and order, and how do you get to a place where... I disagree with you. I don't think it is all different people. It's very easy to be like, "Oh, it's all Antifa or outside agitators or whatever." I don't think that's all true. There are certainly-...criminals who are opportunistically using the breakdown of the moment to, you know, to loot, to vandalize, to do whatever that they're going to do. But I think what is harder to recogni- reckon with is that you have actually, quote unquote, "ordinary, typically law-abiding people" who feel like the, the moment has broken down to that, the extent that they would also engage in those kinds of acts. That's a harder thing to deal with. But when you think about the moment that we're living in, like the, the rules and the laws that have been set have never been that far from, like that disconnected from what is moral and what is just. If you look at four trillion to corporations and everyone else, mass unemployment and small businesses destroyed, with, when you look at the fact that of those officers who murdered George Floyd, only one of them has been charged. The other three are still free. They haven't been arrested, they haven't been charged, they haven't been anything. And meanwhile, you've got, you know, 4,000 protesters, you've got journalists on TV who are being charged. And if you go back even farther than that, like the financial collapse, and you're allowed, if you're rich, to collapse the entire economy with zero consequence. And so again, this isn't like morally justifying things that are morally unjustifiable, which is what you're talking about, but you also have to understand that that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is a systemic breakdown of the legitimacy of rule of law and law and order that leads to not just outside agitators or white nationalists or Russia or Antifa-

    27. JRJoe Rogan39:34

        (laughs)

    28. KBKrystal Ball39:34

        ... or whoever it is that people are pretending that this is doing all of this, to where you have regular citizens who are like, "Fuck this. I am going to be out there among them. I'm gonna be defacing..." I walk, uh, you know, in DC I walk by the Department of the Treasury and it's got Black Lives Matter scrawled on it, right? They're intentionally going to the high-end parts of town. Like, this is actually, in many cases, very political and very specific. I think that's a harder thing to have to reckon with, that that dividing line between these are the good law-abiding ones and these are the bad ones, and let's just crack down on the bad ones, that line has become very blurry, and that's why it's such an incredibly hard situation we have.

    29. JRJoe Rogan40:12

        I agree with a lot of what you said.

    30. KBKrystal Ball40:14

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:43:19