Joe Rogan Experience #1485 - Krystal & Saagar

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Here we go. We're…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Here we go. We're rolling. What's up? Good to see you guys.

   2. SESaagar Enjeti0:05

      Good to see you, Joe.

   3. KBKrystal Ball0:05

      Good, good to see you too. Thanks for having us.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      It's always weird to meet somebody when you watch a lot of their YouTube content-

   5. SESaagar Enjeti0:10

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      ... or TV con-, and then, then you're like, "You're real!"

   7. SESaagar Enjeti0:13

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      And I can touch your hands.

   9. KBKrystal Ball0:14

      (laughs)

   10. SESaagar Enjeti0:14

       That's how I feel about you, man. That's like ... (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       Let's ... You know, we all feel about each other that way.

   12. SESaagar Enjeti0:19

       Yeah, right. (laughs)

   13. KBKrystal Ball0:20

       It is a strange dynamic.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       You get the ... I, I love you guys.

   15. KBKrystal Ball0:23

       Oh, thank you.

   16. SESaagar Enjeti0:23

       I mean, big fan. Thank you.

   17. KBKrystal Ball0:24

       Thank you. Well, same. We feel the same.

   18. SESaagar Enjeti0:25

       For sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       You guys are honest.

   20. SESaagar Enjeti0:27

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       I mean, we were, we were talking about that earlier, like it's so rare that someone is just calling it like it is, like what you see. And, uh, obviously you guys don't agree on everything, and n- you know, no one does, but, right? We all have varying opinions, but you say what you feel. And that is so valuable today. It's so unusual. It's just such a weird, partisan time.

   22. KBKrystal Ball0:48

       It is a weird, partisan time. Like it's never been harder to actually just do that thing, and I can't say, I mean, we don't get it right all the time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Mm-hmm.

   24. KBKrystal Ball0:56

       But the whole idea was to try to have this conversation between kind of the new left and the new right that wasn't happening at any- anywhere in a way that was valuing people's humanity, that was trying to deal in the land of the honest, not cheerleading a team or the other, but actually trying to, like, be straightforward about what we think and evaluating the facts as we find them, and, I mean, I have to say, like, you have somewhat created that space where that can happen. So, I think we're in part indebted to you.

   25. SESaagar Enjeti1:23

       Yeah, well it's a- absolutely, and you know, it's crazy to me, I think the reason it works is because we both kind of came up in quasi-traditional background, right? Like, Krystal came from the MSNBC world, like, I was a White House correspondent. Like, I worked with a lot of these traditional reporters and, like, you know, I would do Fox News and, and all these other things, and you just, it's always so frustrating when you're on TV. You get three and a half minutes to talk, right? Like, I once did a segment on, you know, nationalism, which was two, two and a half minutes with three people on a pl- on a panel. Like, how are you supposed to get your point across? And so when you're, when you're doing that, and you see, like ... So you can make an entire career in DC just sticking to the party line no matter what these people believe, and you just spit out the talkers-

   26. KBKrystal Ball2:02

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SESaagar Enjeti2:02

       ... that they literally send you. They l- will send you talking points. They just say over and over again-

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:06

       What is that like? P- pull that-

   29. SESaagar Enjeti2:07

       Yeah, go ahead.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Pull that sucker-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yes. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

   2. KBKrystal Ball15:00

      Yes.

   3. SESaagar Enjeti15:00

      (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      ... you have no control over that.

   5. KBKrystal Ball15:01

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Like, how could he know that there's white nationalists that even have him on their radar?

   7. KBKrystal Ball15:05

      But it's... And it's not even that. Like, you see this with any candidate who comes from outside the sort of established channels. I mean, you see the same thing with, with Tulsi, you saw the same thing with Bernie.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KBKrystal Ball15:15

      You saw the same thing in some ways with Trump, is like, they use who is supporting you. They find, like, the worst person that's supporting you.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Right. Yeah.

   11. KBKrystal Ball15:23

       And then they use that to dismiss the whole thing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       Right.

   13. KBKrystal Ball15:25

       Like, that way, they don't have to engage with your arguments or your policy ideas or who you are or what you're doing as a person. It's like, "This person associated with, with you is bad, ergo, you are bad, ergo, we don't have to deal with that at all."

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       Yeah, I think some of that has to do with this, this, this quality of posting things on social media.

   15. SESaagar Enjeti15:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       Like, this 140 character, now 280 character quality of Twitter, where you're just kind of condensing things. And it's re- this reductionist view of stuff, and then just put it out there. "Oh, he's racist."

   17. SESaagar Enjeti15:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       "Oh, he's sexist. Oh, he's supported by white nationalists."

   19. SESaagar Enjeti16:01

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       So, and then boom, that's the narrative. Stick with it. There's no nuance. Run.

   21. KBKrystal Ball16:05

       Yeah.

   22. SESaagar Enjeti16:06

       And think, think about that, right? The caus- the, the, just like the sheer amount of arrogance it takes to just sum up somebody in, like, 280 characters and just be like, "This person is a racist."

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       I think it's-

   24. SESaagar Enjeti16:16

       They don't even acknowledge the... I mean, do they know what it means to call somebody that, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       I don't think it's a real statement.

   26. SESaagar Enjeti16:22

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       It's just like, you're saying it, right? But it's one person talking to the ether.

   28. SESaagar Enjeti16:27

       Yeah.

   29. KBKrystal Ball16:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Right? There's no one saying... Like, says who?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   ... because this is…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

   2. KBKrystal Ball30:00

      ... because this is ... They really think about it that way. This is just the way that the town operates. And it's, you know, it's easy to look at these individual examples and be disgusted by them, but the, the bottom line is, it's a much deeper problem than that. We, we covered a poll recently that was actually done by The Hill and HarrisX.

   3. SESaagar Enjeti30:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KBKrystal Ball30:18

      People said their number one political issue was corruption. Like, beyond climate change or healthcare or whatever, the one, the number one thing that they were most concerned about was political corruption. And you look at what is happening in the country right now, and the fact that our institutions have no credibility, that there's no expectation that you could effect change through traditional channels. I mean, that feeds into exactly the rage that's exploding across the country. We covered before coronavirus, right? And 40 million-plus Americans unemployed, and hundreds of thu- you know, 100,000-plus dead, and before riots broke out, and before George Floyd was killed, and before all of that, we covered this poll where 40% of Americans, I think it was 43%-

   5. SESaagar Enjeti31:03

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KBKrystal Ball31:04

      ... said when they think of our cultural and social institutions, they just want to burn it all down. 40%. Like, what does that mean in a context of a democracy?

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:15

      T- how did they all come to that phrase?

   8. SESaagar Enjeti31:16

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:16

      Was it like a multiple choice?

   10. KBKrystal Ball31:17

       That was the, that was the question. (laughs)

   11. SESaagar Enjeti31:18

       They were like, "Do you agree with this?"

   12. KBKrystal Ball31:19

       That was the question. What is the question? "Do you agree with this?"

   13. SESaagar Enjeti31:19

       They were like, "Do you agree with this phrase?"

   14. KBKrystal Ball31:21

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:21

       Well, that seems a little leading on, isn't it?

   16. SESaagar Enjeti31:22

       Yeah.

   17. KBKrystal Ball31:22

       I mean-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:23

       'Cause most people are just so ... They're so-

   19. SESaagar Enjeti31:24

       But even if they say they agree with it, like that's kind of ...

   20. KBKrystal Ball31:27

       But think about, but think about-

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:27

       Yes. True. But what are the options? What, what ... I would like to see if it's a multiple choice test.

   22. SESaagar Enjeti31:31

       I actually-

   23. KBKrystal Ball31:31

       What's the other (laughs) ?

   24. SESaagar Enjeti31:31

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:31

       What was the other?

   26. KBKrystal Ball31:31

       But think o- think of it another-

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:32

       Suck up all the politicians.

   28. KBKrystal Ball31:34

       (laughs)

   29. SESaagar Enjeti31:34

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       You know, give your money and ask no questions, or burn it all down.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. SESaagar Enjeti45:00

      so to speak, right? Like there was no professional apparatus of people on the right who actually held and understood why Donald Trump is president of the United States.

   2. KBKrystal Ball45:09

      Yeah.

   3. SESaagar Enjeti45:09

      And this is like, this is what gets back to what I talked about earlier, about the incentive structure, about that system, the think tank, the revolving door. That is an effort to maintain power over the policy sphere, because if you control that, it doesn't matter what the people think.

   4. KBKrystal Ball45:23

      Yeah. But I mean-

   5. SESaagar Enjeti45:24

      It only matters what happens.

   6. KBKrystal Ball45:25

      Here's, here's why I was-

   7. SESaagar Enjeti45:26

      Yeah.

   8. KBKrystal Ball45:27

      ... making those faces.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:27

      Why she's rolling her eyes.

   10. KBKrystal Ball45:27

       Because I mean look, he's the president and he makes his own choices, and if he understood like that there was this need to go more economically left and do it, then he could, he could do it. But the reality is he spent his whole, most of his political capital his first term like giving away tax cuts to corporations. Same thing any other Republican would have done. So that's why I sort of roll my eyes.

   11. SESaagar Enjeti45:47

       Yeah.

   12. KBKrystal Ball45:47

       I don't think he cares about anything outside of like winning the day's news. Like I really don't think he gives a shit about anything other than that.

   13. SESaagar Enjeti45:52

       You know, I mean, see this is, this is the thing though. I, I mean I've met Trump, you know, I've interviewed him a couple of time, four or five, four times I think, and this-

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       What is he like?

   15. SESaagar Enjeti46:00

       Exactly what you see. Exactly what you see on TV. Same guy, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:03

       Do you feel like you got through the layers to talk to a human?

   17. SESaagar Enjeti46:08

       (laughs) No, because he's always on.

   18. KBKrystal Ball46:09

       (laughs) I don't think there's anything else.

   19. SESaagar Enjeti46:11

       That's the thing. There's... No, that's the thing. He's al-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       You don't think there's anything in the air?

   21. SESaagar Enjeti46:12

       You know, my favorite thing I ever asked Trump, I was like, "What are people going to remember you for in 100 years?" And he was like, "Veterans' choice." And I was like, "I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say-"

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       Veterans' choice?

   23. KBKrystal Ball46:21

       (laughs)

   24. SESaagar Enjeti46:21

       "... that's probably not it." Right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       Jesus Christ.

   26. SESaagar Enjeti46:23

       I'm like sitting in there, I, I... It occurred with me with Trump, like I'm in the Oval and like you're like, "Man, that's where like Kissinger was sitting. Like, man, this JFK picture, and like Eisenhower," like there's stuff.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:32

       Yeah.

   28. SESaagar Enjeti46:32

       I don't think he thinks about any of that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       What did he mean-

   30. SESaagar Enjeti46:34

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:04:05

   Well, let me ask…

   1. KBKrystal Ball1:00:00

      we saw on TV with the military police coming in and tear gassing and rubber bullets, p- peaceful populations, that this is going to, they're gonna go, come in as peacekeepers in these cit- cities? Absolutely not. If you bring the military in, you are starting a war. You're not ending violence, you're escalating violence. And that's the thing.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      Well, let me ask you this.

   3. KBKrystal Ball1:00:18

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

      How do you stop the looters?

   5. SESaagar Enjeti1:00:19

      Yeah. Perfect question.

   6. KBKrystal Ball1:00:20

      Well, I think local law enforcement. I mean...

   7. SESaagar Enjeti1:00:22

      But they're not doing it, but that's the question.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:24

      But what are they doing if they're not doing it?

   9. KBKrystal Ball1:00:24

      If the cities, if the cities aren't up to it, fine, they can call in the National Guard. But-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

       Well, that's the military police then. You're, you're...

   11. KBKrystal Ball1:00:29

       For the, for the, for the president to bring in the American military into cities across the country without local consent, I think is insane. And I think, look-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       But he's only saying that if they don't use the National Guard.

   13. SESaagar Enjeti1:00:39

       Right.

   14. KBKrystal Ball1:00:39

       Think about the context of if you saw this happening in another country, right? It's e- it's hard to, like, look at our own country through, you know, neutral lens. If you looked at a foreign country and you heard that their president was bringing in the military to quash protesters, would you be like, "Oh, this is gonna go great." No. Usually what happens next...

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

       But hold on, stop. Hold, hold on. Hold on. He's not bringing in the military to squash protesters. He's bringing in the military to stop rioters and looters.

   16. KBKrystal Ball1:01:01

       How can, but how can you, how can you say that?

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       There's a difference.

   18. KBKrystal Ball1:01:03

       But how can you say that when we see-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       Because you, you actually stop-

   20. KBKrystal Ball1:01:06

       ... military police on TV-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

       But you s-

   22. KBKrystal Ball1:01:08

       ... shooting rub- rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protesters?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Okay, but, uh, we're n- we're not supporting that, right? We're talking about what's going on in New York City. You stop people from breaking into law-abiding people's stores.

   24. KBKrystal Ball1:01:17

       Yes, do that. Absolutely.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       But that's, but that's what we're saying. So we're in agreement.

   26. KBKrystal Ball1:01:20

       Absolutely, but the, the military police aren't-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       But we're in agreement then-

   28. KBKrystal Ball1:01:22

       But the military-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       ... even if using the National Guard.

   30. KBKrystal Ball1:01:23

       ... isn't trained to do that. That isn't what the-

Episode duration: 2:43:19