Joe Rogan Experience #1485 - Krystal & Saagar

Joe Rogan 0:02 Here we go. We're rolling. What's up? Good to see you guys.

Saagar Enjeti 0:05 Good to see you, Joe.

Krystal Ball 0:05 Good, good to see you too. Thanks for having us.

Joe Rogan 0:06 It's always weird to meet somebody when you watch a lot of their YouTube content-

Saagar Enjeti 0:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:10 ... or TV con-, and then, then you're like, "You're real!"

Saagar Enjeti 0:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:13 And I can touch your hands.

Krystal Ball 0:14 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 0:14 That's how I feel about you, man. That's like ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:17 Let's ... You know, we all feel about each other that way.

Saagar Enjeti 0:19 Yeah, right. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 0:20 It is a strange dynamic.

Joe Rogan 0:21 You get the ... I, I love you guys.

Krystal Ball 0:23 Oh, thank you.

Saagar Enjeti 0:23 I mean, big fan. Thank you.

Krystal Ball 0:24 Thank you. Well, same. We feel the same.

Saagar Enjeti 0:25 For sure.

Joe Rogan 0:26 You guys are honest.

Saagar Enjeti 0:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:27 I mean, we were, we were talking about that earlier, like it's so rare that someone is just calling it like it is, like what you see. And, uh, obviously you guys don't agree on everything, and n- you know, no one does, but, right? We all have varying opinions, but you say what you feel. And that is so valuable today. It's so unusual. It's just such a weird, partisan time.

Krystal Ball 0:48 It is a weird, partisan time. Like it's never been harder to actually just do that thing, and I can't say, I mean, we don't get it right all the time.

Joe Rogan 0:55 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 0:56 But the whole idea was to try to have this conversation between kind of the new left and the new right that wasn't happening at any- anywhere in a way that was valuing people's humanity, that was trying to deal in the land of the honest, not cheerleading a team or the other, but actually trying to, like, be straightforward about what we think and evaluating the facts as we find them, and, I mean, I have to say, like, you have somewhat created that space where that can happen. So, I think we're in part indebted to you.

Saagar Enjeti 1:23 Yeah, well it's a- absolutely, and you know, it's crazy to me, I think the reason it works is because we both kind of came up in quasi-traditional background, right? Like, Krystal came from the MSNBC world, like, I was a White House correspondent. Like, I worked with a lot of these traditional reporters and, like, you know, I would do Fox News and, and all these other things, and you just, it's always so frustrating when you're on TV. You get three and a half minutes to talk, right? Like, I once did a segment on, you know, nationalism, which was two, two and a half minutes with three people on a pl- on a panel. Like, how are you supposed to get your point across? And so when you're, when you're doing that, and you see, like ... So you can make an entire career in DC just sticking to the party line no matter what these people believe, and you just spit out the talkers-

Krystal Ball 2:02 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 2:02 ... that they literally send you. They l- will send you talking points. They just say over and over again-

Joe Rogan 2:06 What is that like? P- pull that-

Saagar Enjeti 2:07 Yeah, go ahead.

Joe Rogan 2:07 Pull that sucker-

Saagar Enjeti 2:08 Sure.

Joe Rogan 2:08 Pull that sucker out.

Saagar Enjeti 2:08 Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan 2:08 What is, what is that like? What is th- what is the talking po-, like, you get a sheet?

Saagar Enjeti 2:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:12 We would like you-

Saagar Enjeti 2:13 Yeah, an email.

Joe Rogan 2:13 ... to discuss ... What i- like, what i- what kind o'-

Saagar Enjeti 2:14 Message of the day. Here's the message of the day. Here are your talking points, top line. Then you go and you turn on Fox News. You can hear it come out of their voice. You turn on-

Krystal Ball 2:21 Literally word for word. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 2:22 Turn on MSNBC. You can hear it word for word, from the Biden campaign to their surrogates. It's all planned, man. Like, it's all from ... Sure enough, nobody actually thinks for themself, and that, when we came together, like, when we were hosting a show, that's what set us apart. I mean, and I think that's why it's caught on.

Joe Rogan 2:37 What's the incentive? Like, is it the incentive to access?

Saagar Enjeti 2:40 Money. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:41 But I mean, for you to stay with the party line, with whatever-

Krystal Ball 2:43 Oh, it's, it's a lot safer. I mean, you know-

Joe Rogan 2:45 Hmm.

Krystal Ball 2:46 ... it's not easy to sort of be out there on your own, you know, and I, and I don't wanna paint just sort of trying to be honest as a more noble act than it actually is. But it's very safe if you're within the party structure, if you're saying the things that they want you to say. There's a whole system set up for that. There's a career system set up for that. There's a system of protection, so you're allowed to be dramatically wrong on things like the Iraq War, or things like the financial crisis-

Joe Rogan 3:11 Hmm.

Krystal Ball 3:11 ... if you're wrong in the approved ways, right?

Joe Rogan 3:15 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 3:15 If you're wrong in the non-approved ways, then you can get destroyed, canceled, all of those things.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 3:21 So, it's a lot safer to stay within the bounds. And, and look, like, we're living that in real time right now.

Saagar Enjeti 3:27 Oh, my God.

Krystal Ball 3:28 I mean, it, it's never been just with how fraught ... You know, you have pandemic, where people are dying, you have Great Depression, so it's like the Spanish Flu and the Great Depression, and then you layer on top of that, like, all the chaos of the '60s. The lines have never been more drawn, at least in the time than, that we've been doing the show, as they are right now. And so, it's, it is a, it's not an easy dynamic to navigate, because most of the country is just completely coming apart.

Saagar Enjeti 4:00 Yeah, and I wanna g-, I mean, picking up, you were like, "Why do you do it?" If you do it, you hop on establishment campaign to establishment campaign. Campaign cycle's over, you go work at a think tank, which is all your former buddies from the campaign. Then you go and you do the talking points. You will always have a job. You will never suffer. You'll never ... Even if nobody likes what you have to say. Even if Republican voters or Democratic voters have rejected your message six out of seven popular vote elections, doesn't matter, because the money is there. And the people who have the money have an interest in propping up that infrastructure. So, when you get your talking points, you know that if you say them, you're in X's good graces, and then that person has to hire you. They'll throw you a consulting contract. They'll throw you this. They'll put your name forward whenever it's time to staff up an administration. That's how the system of the grift in the city actually works, and that's how they keep dissenting voices in their own party down, because how do y-, how do you even get on TV? Or how do you even become an authoritative voice in your party? You need credentials, right? Everything is credentialism. Well, how do you get those credentials? They control who enters the programs, and they control who they push. They control who they push forward. And so that's how they try to keep people who have dissenting opinions out. And it's, like we said, it's because of this space that you opened up, where nobody knew that somebody wanted to listen to a guy talk about chimps for three hours.

Krystal Ball 5:16 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 5:16 And that million, millions of people would do that.

Krystal Ball 5:18 Did you know that?

Saagar Enjeti 5:19 Yeah, I had no idea. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:19 Had no idea.

Saagar Enjeti 5:19 I didn't know that you knew that.

Joe Rogan 5:20 No.

Saagar Enjeti 5:21 And, and, like, that happened. That created a space, where it's like, no, no, no, there's a lot of people who are fed up with this shit.

Krystal Ball 5:28 But can I say, also-

Saagar Enjeti 5:29 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 5:29 ... it's not just that, like, direct career grift trajectory. It's also that we're at this point in the nation's history, which again, has never been more obvious than right now, where the stakes feel really existential.

Saagar Enjeti 5:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:42 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 5:42 And, you know, and that's, that's a real thing. I mean, w- before Trump's election, there was this Flight 93 essay, where the, the argument was, look, if you're a social conservative, if you're not sure that this Trump guy is for you, this election is existential. You have to grab the controls, or else our way of life is going to die. Now, I don't agree with that as- assessment. I think that is hyperbolic. I think it's over the top. You know, the conservative way of life is gonna continue, and their churches, and people can do what they wanna do. But that's the, that was a legitimate sense among the Trump base. And of course, we see it with th- the Democrats and the left right now, um, and I would say, at this moment, it has probably never been more true, um, in terms of that existential nature, as we see, you know, the president calling for potentially military activation in American cities, and we see him, you know, using tear gas and rubber bullets on peaceful protestors. So, the fact that the stakes feel so existential on both sides make it very, very difficult to engage in a way that is-... thoughtful, honest, non-hyperbolic, and where everyone's not just basically mad at you all the time.

Saagar Enjeti 6:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:51 How did you guys start your show?

Saagar Enjeti 6:53 Well, I mean, it's a, it's a crazy story. So Kristel was co-hosting previously, um, and this was before kind of the show was on YouTube. Um, and I think I, fair to say it was more, like, standard left/right-

Krystal Ball 7:03 Yeah. It was sort of more of a standard left/right kind of dynamic. Our politics-

Joe Rogan 7:06 What year are we talk-

Krystal Ball 7:06 ... didn't ha-... This was just, you know, when did we-

Saagar Enjeti 7:08 Two year- two years ago?

Krystal Ball 7:08 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 7:08 So I started o- on the sh- I think I took on the show June-

Krystal Ball 7:11 Last year.

Saagar Enjeti 7:12 ... yeah, about exactly-

Krystal Ball 7:13 A year ago.

Saagar Enjeti 7:13 ... a year ago.

Krystal Ball 7:13 Yeah. So before that, for about a year before that, I'd been co-hosting with another guy, great guy, Buck Sexton, and we had sort of a more standard left/right dynamic.

Joe Rogan 7:21 Sounds like a porn star. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 7:22 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 7:22 (laughs) Well-

Saagar Enjeti 7:23 He'll love, he'll love that you said that.

Joe Rogan 7:24 Kristel-

Krystal Ball 7:24 Kristel Ball and Buck Sexton.

Saagar Enjeti 7:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:25 Yeah. For real.

Krystal Ball 7:26 Imagine that. Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 7:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:27 Kind of hilarious, yeah.

Krystal Ball 7:28 Anyway... (laughs) Um-

Joe Rogan 7:31 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 7:31 Buck-

Saagar Enjeti 7:31 But I used to fill in for Buck-

Krystal Ball 7:33 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 7:33 ... kind of when he was gone, and Kristel and I, like, we, I mean, we found, like, we would click on certain issues, right? Like, especially on... The, these are the things you see on the show, like on economics, on the indictment of the economic system, about-

Krystal Ball 7:43 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 7:44 ... even on Trump. Like, I'm not a Trump toady, right? Like, I'm not... I won-... If, if they give me the talking points, like, I'm not... If I say something, if I think something's good, I'll say it's good, and if I think it's, something is bad, then it's bad, and it gets me into trouble. It gets Kristel into trouble too. And-

Joe Rogan 7:56 Define, define trouble.

Saagar Enjeti 7:58 I mean, you know, people are pissed off at what you say. They'll tweet at you and be like, "How dare you," you know?

Joe Rogan 8:01 Do you read that stuff?

Saagar Enjeti 8:02 Yeah, I read it.

Joe Rogan 8:02 That's, that's the problem. I shouldn't do that.

Krystal Ball 8:03 He, he reads it more than I do.

Saagar Enjeti 8:04 I read every single one. I probably shouldn't.

Joe Rogan 8:05 Don't read it if you don't have to.

Krystal Ball 8:06 I, I would read more of it.

Saagar Enjeti 8:07 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 8:07 It's not that I am, like, smarter to not re-... I just am, like, have kids and-

Saagar Enjeti 8:11 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 8:11 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 8:11 ... where I live-

Saagar Enjeti 8:12 That's the, that's the real difference.

Krystal Ball 8:12 ... doesn't have broadband internet. That actually helps a lot.

Joe Rogan 8:14 Oh, that's great.

Krystal Ball 8:15 We have, like, satellite internet, and it sucks-

Joe Rogan 8:17 Oh, wow.

Krystal Ball 8:17 ... really hard. It's actually great, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:19 That's really good.

Krystal Ball 8:19 I recommend it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:20 It also-

Krystal Ball 8:20 It's good for the kids too.

Joe Rogan 8:21 ... helps if you're trying to upload something. It's virtually impossible.

Saagar Enjeti 8:24 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 8:24 Yeah, no. You're fucked.

Saagar Enjeti 8:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:26 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 8:26 You have to drive to the Starbucks-

Joe Rogan 8:27 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 8:27 ... which is 20 minutes away.

Joe Rogan 8:29 So if you're thinking about uploading something really ridiculous-

Saagar Enjeti 8:32 Yeah, right.

Krystal Ball 8:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:32 ... you know, on the way, it cancels out, it times out.

Krystal Ball 8:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:35 And you're like, "It's probably for the best."

Krystal Ball 8:36 You gotta r-... You gotta really have some time to, like, think it over before you get there.

Joe Rogan 8:39 Yes.

Krystal Ball 8:39 So, so yeah. So when Buck wanted to focus on his radio show, and, um, you know, one of the, one of the expectations of The Hill, which is, you know, the, the-

Saagar Enjeti 8:49 Right.

Krystal Ball 8:49 ... corporate news brand that sponsors us is that this would be a left/right show. But (laughs) I thought, let's do a left/right show in a way that no one has done before, where normally the consensus, the sort of left/right consensus is like this: we're all moderates, we're all corporatists-

Saagar Enjeti 9:05 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 9:05 ... we believe in unity, we believe in, like, low taxes, we believe in free trade deals. That's the... And wars and those sorts of things. That's the sort of standard bipartisan consensus that you're allowed to have. So we thought, what if we did it in a, in a different left/right dynamic, where we actually have more overlap on some of these economic issues, and the dissent is around more of the cultural issues and, um, and what does that look like? Because that's actually more representative of where the two parties are headed-

Saagar Enjeti 9:35 Right.

Krystal Ball 9:36 ... if you look at where young people are. It's also more representative of where more Americans are. I mean, you know, Saagar says, and, and I think this is true-

Saagar Enjeti 9:44 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 9:44 ... there's very little representation, has been historically at least, for people who are, like, economically more left and culturally more right. Um, all of the elite conversation is this very, like, economically liberal, but on, uh, sociocultural issues, uh, economically more conservative, like balance the budget-

Saagar Enjeti 10:07 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 10:07 ... and low taxes and stuff, but on sociocultural issues, more liberal, is more the elite conversation that is commonly happening on cable news, even though that's reflective of, like, teeny tiny portion of-

Saagar Enjeti 10:16 Yeah, that's-

Krystal Ball 10:17 ... most of, of America.

Saagar Enjeti 10:17 That's 10% of the population.

Joe Rogan 10:19 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 10:19 And they all live in, like, New York City, LA, San Francisco.

Joe Rogan 10:22 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 10:22 It's like the r-... Like, r- m- America is, I would say, cult- pretty culturally right. Not, like, super right, but, like, s- center right. And economically, you could say cultural left. I mean, little bit left. It depends on how you define those things. But one of the... I mean, the ethos of the show, Kristel actually said this, I think, to The Times, was, "What if we hated each other less and the elites more?"

Krystal Ball 10:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:44 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 10:44 And I think that that, that's what the show is about.

Krystal Ball 10:46 It's a little simplistic, but that's-

Saagar Enjeti 10:47 No, it-

Krystal Ball 10:47 ... kind of how we, that's kind of how we boil it down. And I-

Saagar Enjeti 10:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:50 Did you guys have a con-... I'm sorry to interrupt.

Saagar Enjeti 10:52 Yeah, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Did you guys have a conversation before you started working together? Like-

Krystal Ball 10:54 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 10:55 Yeah, yeah. We talked a lot about-

Joe Rogan 10:55 ... you guys sit down. Like-

Saagar Enjeti 10:57 How do-

Joe Rogan 10:57 ... "W- how do you feel about this? How do you feel about that?"

Krystal Ball 10:58 Yeah, I mean, we-

Saagar Enjeti 11:00 Well-

Krystal Ball 11:00 ... because he'd filled in before, and, you k-... I mean, you know, when you have guests on-

Saagar Enjeti 11:04 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 11:04 ... when you work with someone, especially in a media space, you get a, you get a vibe right away.

Saagar Enjeti 11:08 Right.

Krystal Ball 11:08 And you can tell right away, you know, number one, is this person, like, ready to hold the chair, ready to do this thing? Do they have the sort of fully formed, coherent ideas or things they wanna explore that's gonna make sense? So just on that, like, surface level, is that gonna work? But you also get a, a real vibe for not even where are you ideologically, but are you willing to be honest when your team is fucking up? And look, everyone looks at cable news, even if you are, you know, a kinda standard down-the-line Democrat or a standard Trump Republican, no one believes that these people are really shooting straight with them. Everyone sees the partisan cheerleading that is going on in the normal cable news networks. And so, it was very easy to see right away that Saagar was a person who was willing to, you know, to be honest where his own team was concerned. And to me, that was kind of the most important piece.

Saagar Enjeti 12:04 Yeah, I mean, and same, right? Like, which is that it's s-... When you're talking to somebody or on cable or just even in an argument, it's just standard talking about... And you, and you can catch them in one of those, like, hip-

Joe Rogan 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 12:14 ... like, what about-isms.

Joe Rogan 12:15 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 12:15 It's just so frustrating. It's just... And it's so unproductive. And that's the thing I hated the most about, you know, my time when I was in the White House press corps. It was very much just, like, the que-... You could predict every single question before the briefing even began.

Joe Rogan 12:29 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 12:29 Every single one. And it just used to drive me nuts, because you'd see these people, and they care a lot more about getting cable news contracts and all that than they ever do, like, actually asking legitimate ques-... or, like, real questions about what you think of this program or what e-... It's all in-... I mean, just, just standard-issue crap. And, like, it was, like, every single day. And with Kristel, it was like fi-... Like, somebody who's willing to c- call out.... the problem's on their side. And I was willing to do the same thing. I kind of have always been like that. And that's, that's where we were like, "We have something here."

Joe Rogan 12:59 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 12:59 And, you know, I mean, th- and then it just started to take off. We w- I mean, it was like we just put it out into the ether, and all of a sudden, it just started, like, catching... It just started catching on.

Krystal Ball 13:07 So you know what was the... You'll actually relate to this.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Yeah, he'll love us. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 13:09 The, the first thing that really caught was we did an interview with Andrew Yang.

Saagar Enjeti 13:13 Yep.

Krystal Ball 13:14 And I've actually known, I've known Andrew for a long time.

Joe Rogan 13:16 Love that guy.

Krystal Ball 13:17 Great guy.

Saagar Enjeti 13:18 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 13:18 Just, you know, say, like, trying to be honest.

Saagar Enjeti 13:20 Yes.

Krystal Ball 13:20 Trying to, like, really figure things out. And his answer may not always be my answer, but I feel like he's really trying to, to figure it out and come to a good place and see the best in people also.

Joe Rogan 13:29 Yes.

Krystal Ball 13:29 And so, we did this long-form interview with him where, I mean, there was nothing crazy about it. We just actually asked him policy-focused substantive questions for, I don't know, 30 minutes.

Saagar Enjeti 13:42 Yes, it w- I think it was, like, 30 minutes.

Krystal Ball 13:43 And it blew up.

Joe Rogan 13:44 People loved it.

Krystal Ball 13:44 And people loved it.

Joe Rogan 13:46 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 13:46 And we're like, "Whoa."

Saagar Enjeti 13:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:48 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 13:48 This is... And I'm talking, I mean, before that, we were getting like 100 views on our videos.

Joe Rogan 13:51 Oh, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 13:52 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 13:52 I mean, I'm serious. Like, we put it on YouTube-

Saagar Enjeti 13:53 I went and I looked at some of the stats. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 13:54 ... it was like five... We were feeling, oh my god, we got 1,000 views on that one, right?

Joe Rogan 13:58 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 13:58 And then Andrew, we post this Andrew Yang video, and it's just like (imitates explosion) , blows up. And we thought, "Wow, this is really, really interesting." So...

Saagar Enjeti 14:05 Well, it was because of the questions we asked. It was like, you were asking him about not just UBI, which is what he's known for, about, like, Medicare for all and all that. And I was asking about-

Krystal Ball 14:13 Drug legalization and-

Saagar Enjeti 14:14 Yeah, drug legalization. I asked him about the China trade deal and about, you know, intellectual property and tariffs. And people loved that we just asked that-

Joe Rogan 14:22 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 14:22 ... we were willing to ask him that.

Joe Rogan 14:23 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 14:23 Yeah, and then it wasn't... And that they weren't stupid. I mean, that's the thing too. At that point in his campaign, from everybody basically except you, he was getting these really stupid questions about like-

Joe Rogan 14:33 Right.

Krystal Ball 14:33 ... "Oh, is it just white nationalists who are supporting you?"

Joe Rogan 14:35 Yeah. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 14:36 And, you know, uh, really surface-

Saagar Enjeti 14:38 Really, he was getting that?

Krystal Ball 14:38 Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was a whole thing.

Saagar Enjeti 14:40 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:40 White nationalist? Why?

Krystal Ball 14:40 Yeah. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 14:40 Bunch of white nationalists picked up Yang as, like, a meme thing. Like, they were like... I don't even really remember what the context was. But, I mean, he obviously disavowed it, but people were picking it up. They're like, "Why are all these white nationalists supporting..." It's like, they're obviously trolling, dude. Like, that's-

Krystal Ball 14:53 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 14:53 ... what the whole thing is about.

Joe Rogan 14:54 Well, isn't that crazy though, that you can-

Krystal Ball 14:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 14:55 ... get in trouble for the people that like you?

Krystal Ball 14:57 (laughs) Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 14:57 We know. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:57 Like, you can't... If you're a publ- public figure-

Krystal Ball 15:00 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 15:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:00 ... you have no control over that.

Krystal Ball 15:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:01 Like, how could he know that there's white nationalists that even have him on their radar?

Krystal Ball 15:05 But it's... And it's not even that. Like, you see this with any candidate who comes from outside the sort of established channels. I mean, you see the same thing with, with Tulsi, you saw the same thing with Bernie.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 15:15 You saw the same thing in some ways with Trump, is like, they use who is supporting you. They find, like, the worst person that's supporting you.

Joe Rogan 15:22 Right. Yeah.

Krystal Ball 15:23 And then they use that to dismiss the whole thing.

Joe Rogan 15:25 Right.

Krystal Ball 15:25 Like, that way, they don't have to engage with your arguments or your policy ideas or who you are or what you're doing as a person. It's like, "This person associated with, with you is bad, ergo, you are bad, ergo, we don't have to deal with that at all."

Joe Rogan 15:37 Yeah, I think some of that has to do with this, this, this quality of posting things on social media.

Saagar Enjeti 15:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:44 Like, this 140 character, now 280 character quality of Twitter, where you're just kind of condensing things. And it's re- this reductionist view of stuff, and then just put it out there. "Oh, he's racist."

Saagar Enjeti 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:57 "Oh, he's sexist. Oh, he's supported by white nationalists."

Saagar Enjeti 16:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:01 So, and then boom, that's the narrative. Stick with it. There's no nuance. Run.

Krystal Ball 16:05 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 16:06 And think, think about that, right? The caus- the, the, just like the sheer amount of arrogance it takes to just sum up somebody in, like, 280 characters and just be like, "This person is a racist."

Joe Rogan 16:16 I think it's-

Saagar Enjeti 16:16 They don't even acknowledge the... I mean, do they know what it means to call somebody that, right?

Joe Rogan 16:20 I don't think it's a real statement.

Saagar Enjeti 16:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:22 It's just like, you're saying it, right? But it's one person talking to the ether.

Saagar Enjeti 16:27 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 16:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Right? There's no one saying... Like, says who?

Saagar Enjeti 16:30 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 16:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:30 So he's... Andrew Yang is not a fucking white nationalist.

Krystal Ball 16:33 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 16:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:33 Like, what are you talking about, man? Like, you need someone in front of you going, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

Krystal Ball 16:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:38 Like he, he... Oh, he knows those guys are supporting him?

Saagar Enjeti 16:41 Yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 16:41 And so he's going out of his way to, to court them?

Krystal Ball 16:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 16:43 Is that what you're saying?

Krystal Ball 16:44 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 16:45 It's just stupid. But no one gets to say that to them, so they get to put those... Tweeting is one of the worst ways to get out information, right? It's one of the worst ways to have a dialogue because... Especially when you're defining something or someone.

Saagar Enjeti 16:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:58 And I feel the same way about, sometimes, uh, occasionally about really self-righteous blogs. When they write an evil blog about someone, that person doesn't get a chance to respond.

Saagar Enjeti 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 17:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:07 You know, you're just sort of saying it out there, your perception of that person, and you can make all these horrible distortions, whether it's about Andrew Yang or Tulsi Gabbard or whoever.

Krystal Ball 17:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:16 You can make these horrible distortions and then someone reads it, and you're, you're putting out this distorted, unchallenged perception of someone. Whereas if you were having a conversation with either them or someone who all, you know, has a more rational point of view, they could say, "Well, that's not really true because she ask- actually said this."

Krystal Ball 17:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:34 "And this is what she meant, and this is the greater context of the conversation."

Krystal Ball 17:37 Right. Uh, we're constantly trying to draw lines around, like, who are the good people and who are the bad people? And like, where's that bright line, and which side of the line are you on? And you're not allowed to associate with the people on the, the bad line.

Joe Rogan 17:51 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 17:51 And I think, like, social media obviously exacerbates all of that and makes it a million times worse, no doubt about it, because it's all so simplistic. It's all so, like, sensationalist-driven. It's all, like, keys into your sort of, like, basic instincts and your adrenaline and your dopamine response and all of that. But there's also been a sort of strategy from, you know, the, the political and, and media elites in the country where if you pit people against each other, and this is something Matt Taibbi, who's, you know, one of the people we-

Joe Rogan 18:21 Yeah, love him to death.

Krystal Ball 18:22 Great guy. You had him on here.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Love him to death.

Krystal Ball 18:23 He's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 18:24 He's amazing.

Krystal Ball 18:24 Wrote this great book, hate, um, Hate Inc. And hi- his thesis is essentially that once the Cold War ended and we didn't have Russia to be the bad guy, that the new ratings innovation was to make each other the bad guys. And what does that do? First of all, it's great for ratings because you got an easy villain. You know, on Fox, it's people like me. On MSNBC, it's people like Saagar, right? It's easy villains, easy ratings. You can find stories all day long that support that narrative, no problem.But it also saves any sort of accountability from the people that are in power. Because if, you know, people who are out there in the country, if the voters are the problem, if they are bad, if they are evil, if they are deplorable, then it's not the fault of the people in power that things are going wrong. It's not their fault that these terrible, evil, sexist, racist, horrible people voted the wrong way. It's those people's fault. And so, it saves them from ever having to do any self-reflection or make any adjustments in what they're doing. And I think it's a big part of why we are where we are.

Saagar Enjeti 19:27 Yeah. I mean, that's just such a huge part of this show, which is there's trying to draw compassion-

Joe Rogan 19:31 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 19:31 ... for people, trying to understand what motivates 65... I don't know the numbers, I think it's 60-something million, to pull the lever for Trump? What happened there, right? And that's just something that the media has not spent any introspection trying to understand what would compel a person to do that. What would compel a person to vote for Bernie Sanders? It's a, I mean, you know, they're like, "Oh, Bernie bros is all white." I mean, if you look at the data, which we talked about on our show constantly, it's just absolutely false. And it's- it's in that way that you can begin to understand and actually even respond, right? And that's actually the thing I love the most about the show, is sometimes I have friends, you know, like on the right, and they'll say something about the left, like, "The left thinks this." I'll be like, "No, man." Like, I have a left cohost and like that's not what she says. Her response is X, Y, and Z. I'm sure the same thing happens with Crystal, which is that, you know, la- as you said, with Twitter, condensing our rhetoric and our politics to 280 characters and trying to condense hyper-complex and multifaceted ideas and multifaceted discussions and deep conversations down to that level helps nobody.

Joe Rogan 20:33 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 20:33 And actually all it does is help split people apart for a pretty explicit reason, which is that part of the things that we talk about on the show is the reason why, you know, the- the elites, the cultural elites, right and left, kind of want everybody split is 'cause they don't want people to have the uncomfortable conversation around how the economy is structured. They don't... Every day that we talk, um, we have some, you know, cultural debate in the country is every day that we're not talking about how many million people in this country are unemployed right now-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Mm.

Saagar Enjeti 21:03 ... about the political choice. The political choice, and this is something I talk a lot on the show about, to allow people to be forced off their payroll and to go onto unemployment, to allow businesses to fail, to allow people to suffer, when we have the explicit choice of allowing them to keep their payroll. I mean, this is something we've been focused on so much, because the implications of that when you're also making the explicit choice in order to, you know, cap the amount of money that goes to a small business program, when you're doing, you know, big checks in order to corporation- or, you know, to the airlines, which are firing people anyway, despite the fact that they got like $50 billion. If you wanna have a conversation about that, that, they will never wanna have that one because they want people to hate each other more.

Krystal Ball 21:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:48 I think there's something about using social media that also facilitates mental illness. And this is what I m- what I mean. Um, like, we all have varying degrees of health, right?

Saagar Enjeti 22:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:00 Some days you're rundown. Some days you feel great. Some days you're- you're coming down with a cold. Some days you're in bed with the flu. We all vary. I think that there's something about the kind of interactions that people are having when they're arguing with shit on Twitter, that you could make a- a real... I think you could draw a graph on- on human beings, on- on their- their mental health.

Saagar Enjeti 22:21 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:22 And how much are you using social media and how many interactions are you having where you're arguing with people-

Krystal Ball 22:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:29 ... and how do you feel?

Krystal Ball 22:29 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 22:29 Well, it's funny, Joe. That- that actually happened to me, is... Look, I spend all day on Twitter. I absolutely shouldn't.

Krystal Ball 22:34 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 22:35 I mean, literally hours and hours.

Krystal Ball 22:36 We need to have an intervention.

Saagar Enjeti 22:37 I stop, I stop myself-

Krystal Ball 22:38 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 22:38 ... from getting into Twit- I stop myself from getting into most Twitter fights.

Krystal Ball 22:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:41 Please stay off of it-

Saagar Enjeti 22:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:43 ... the few days after this podcast-

Saagar Enjeti 22:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:45 ... comes out, 'cause the fucking tsunami-

Krystal Ball 22:47 (laughs) It's gonna be ugly.

Joe Rogan 22:47 ... is coming your way.

Saagar Enjeti 22:48 I know. A lot of shit is coming.

Krystal Ball 22:49 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 22:49 But-

Krystal Ball 22:50 Good advice.

Saagar Enjeti 22:50 ... I did, I took like a vacation right before I ca- I started taking over the show. I spent like 10 days off Twitter. And that's when the Mueller report came out. And I ma- I was like, "I'm not... No Twitter." And I just read it in the paper, or I read, actually went, found the link, read the whole r-... It was amazing.

Joe Rogan 23:05 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 23:06 It was ama-

Joe Rogan 23:06 Feels great, right?

Saagar Enjeti 23:07 I was like, "Ah." I mean, I had all these like nuanced thoughts, like this is... I was like, "Oh, well, the Mueller report, you know, this shows this. Oh, this person was full of shit the whole time." But you don't need to go out there and tweet it.

Joe Rogan 23:15 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 23:15 Whereas if I- if I had been in my office, I would've been like, "This idiot." You know? But it w- it was, it was great. And I- I should probably go back to that. I've incorporated some of it.

Joe Rogan 23:23 I broke my phone once on vacation.

Saagar Enjeti 23:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:26 Uh, I was in Hawaii, and, uh, you know, if you wanna order a phone, it took... Like, I ordered it from Apple. It took like three days to get there, something like that.

Saagar Enjeti 23:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:33 So, for four days, no phone, right? Um, and it was amazing.

Saagar Enjeti 23:37 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 23:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:38 It was amazing. I was like, "I feel so much more relaxed."

Krystal Ball 23:40 No, I mean, these are like-

Joe Rogan 23:41 I'm not checking shit.

Saagar Enjeti 23:42 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 23:42 They're like Skinnerian, like, you know, reflex devices.

Joe Rogan 23:46 What is Skinner? I don't know what that word is.

Krystal Ball 23:47 Like, like Skinner, like the, you know, push the lever and get rewarded.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Oh, okay.

Krystal Ball 23:50 That-

Joe Rogan 23:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Krystal Ball 23:51 And I mean, you see it with... Like I see it with my kids too. If I let them have the device too much, they get all irritated and agitated, truly.

Joe Rogan 23:58 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 23:58 Because it's the, it- it is the exact same neural pathways, those like dopamine response systems, as with any addiction. I mean, it's... You have engineers who are making their living trying to figure out how to program your brain to not ever get off Twitter-

Saagar Enjeti 24:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:14 Right.

Krystal Ball 24:14 ... and not ever get off whatever it is that you're obsessed with on your phone or your device. And like, that's what you're up against, so-

Saagar Enjeti 24:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 24:20 ... be a little humble about that-

Saagar Enjeti 24:21 I- I just love that.

Krystal Ball 24:21 ... you know?

Joe Rogan 24:22 I have so many friends that have that problem. Like I've... Sometimes I'll text them and then I'll get back a green bubble and I'm like, "Did you switch to Android?"

Saagar Enjeti 24:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:28 "No, man. I switched to a flip phone."

Saagar Enjeti 24:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:30 "I'm trying to wean myself off social media."

Krystal Ball 24:31 Try, try to get off. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 24:33 It's awesome. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:33 It's like-

Saagar Enjeti 24:33 Whatever, yeah.

Krystal Ball 24:33 But I mean, I joked about like, I mean, we- we don't have good broadband access where we live and it's sort of a pain in the ass sometimes. But it actually is like on the weekends-

Joe Rogan 24:41 I'm sure it's great.

Saagar Enjeti 24:42 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 24:43 ... I- I ha- like I have to be off of it. I'm forced to, and I wouldn't have the willpower to do that myself.

Saagar Enjeti 24:48 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 24:48 And it is, it actually really is great.

Joe Rogan 24:50 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 24:50 You know, it's funny. My- my- one of my friends, J.D. Vance, he wrote this book, Hillbilly Elegy. And one of the things he talks about is he's like, "You know, we have our best scientists, neuroscientists, and all these other people in the world trying to figure out how to s- make you and I spend more micro and milliseconds and kids on their phones than trying to change the world or invent medicine." Like that is-

Joe Rogan 25:09 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 25:09 ... kind of the profit incentive, right? For so many of these things.

Krystal Ball 25:11 Absolutely.

Saagar Enjeti 25:12 That's something... I mean, this is a big, like, new right conversation, actually. Like Senator Josh Hawley introduced legislat- I mean, he got a... Took a lot of shit for it 'cause they're like, "He's trying to be the product manager of the internet." But like there's something there, right?

Joe Rogan 25:22 There's something there.

Saagar Enjeti 25:22 Like there's something, there's something about how these systems are designed and the people who are working to try and spend you to make all this time on the phone.

Joe Rogan 25:30 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 25:31 I don't know if... I mean, that's- that's not great. Like we had the surgeon general on our show and he's like, "Yeah, I'm pretty concerned about it."

Joe Rogan 25:35 Well, not only is it-

Saagar Enjeti 25:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:36 ... not great-

Saagar Enjeti 25:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:37 ... but it's also really difficult to avoid.

Saagar Enjeti 25:40 Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 25:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:40 Like once you get to doing it, it's a harder kick than sugar.

Saagar Enjeti 25:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:44 It's- it's right up there with caffeine and nicotine. It's like-

Krystal Ball 25:47 Makes you feel like you're really doing something too.

Saagar Enjeti 25:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:49 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 25:49 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 25:50 It does. It makes you feel like you're really like, "Oh..."This, this tweet. This one's-

Joe Rogan 25:54 Yes.

Krystal Ball 25:54 ... gonna be the one that really ... You know, and you watch the numbers go up, and it makes you feel like you are engaged in some sort of, like, minor battle-

Joe Rogan 26:02 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 26:02 Yeah, that's-

Krystal Ball 26:02 ... of winning these minor victories.

Joe Rogan 26:03 You're right. Yeah. Go to Sam Trippe's Instagram page and pull that thing that he said, what white people feel like when they virtue signal.

Krystal Ball 26:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:11 It is ... It's an amazing photograph. This, this to m- (laughs) this, to me, eh, eh, epitomizes and embodies the feeling that I get when I see silly people tweet things.

Saagar Enjeti 26:22 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:22 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 26:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:24 (laughs) It's Khaleesi from Game of Thrones, and she's being carried by all these, uh-

Saagar Enjeti 26:32 Oh, that's so good, man.

Krystal Ball 26:33 Yeah. (laughs) That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 26:34 ... these students.

Krystal Ball 26:34 That is amazing.

Saagar Enjeti 26:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:35 But it's fucking ... That's ... It's this thing where people just... I mean, virtue signal is a fucking fantastic phrase-

Saagar Enjeti 26:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:42 ... 'cause it really is what it is.

Krystal Ball 26:43 Nails it.

Saagar Enjeti 26:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:44 You know, it's just perfect. And, you know, it's a little overused, but, uh, I, I like it. I'm gonna keep using it.

Krystal Ball 26:48 Well, it's an important term too-

Joe Rogan 26:50 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:50 ... because it explains a lot of, like, the ineffectiveness of our politics.

Joe Rogan 26:54 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:54 Like, it's all rhetorical.

Saagar Enjeti 26:55 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 26:55 It's all, like, rhetorically signaling which side you're on r- and the sort of illusion of disagreement in Washington when actually, you know, they're unanimously passing things like this $4 trillion-

Saagar Enjeti 27:07 Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 27:07 ... for big business and push everybody ... mass unemployment-

Joe Rogan 27:10 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 27:10 ... for the masses.

Saagar Enjeti 27:10 My favorite example on that is, uh, there was a, uh, like a 10-year birthday party for AIG, which is, you know, the big insurance giant-

Joe Rogan 27:18 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 27:18 ... that we bailed out in 2008. In the committee room for the House Ways and Means, which is the committee in charge of taxing in the United States. So, in the committee room, they held a birthday party for the company that they bailed out. Democrats and Republicans all showed up, man. They had special-

Joe Rogan 27:33 (laughs) Oh, God.

Saagar Enjeti 27:33 They had fucking specialty cocktails at this thing. And I was like-

Joe Rogan 27:36 Like what kind of specialty cocktails?

Saagar Enjeti 27:37 I don't even know. It was like, "Oh, we're gonna do special." I, I, I, I don't even know what it w-

Krystal Ball 27:41 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 27:41 I was ... I was s- I was like, this is unbeli- in the committee room, in the very room to decide, do- where they decided to bail these companies out to the tune of billions, to tu- you know, and during Wall Street and so much more. They're throwing birthday parties for these people.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Well, it's all hilarious.

Saagar Enjeti 27:54 It's never been more out in the open.

Joe Rogan 27:55 We were trying to figure out how Nancy Pelosi made all her money. We were like, but-

Saagar Enjeti 27:58 It's her husband, right?

Joe Rogan 27:59 Is that right?

Saagar Enjeti 28:00 I think. I think it's ... I think so.

Joe Rogan 28:01 How'd he-

Saagar Enjeti 28:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:01 ... make his money?

Saagar Enjeti 28:02 I do- I don't know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:03 There has to be some-

Saagar Enjeti 28:04 What if her dad was like a-

Joe Rogan 28:05 ... shenanigans going on there.

Saagar Enjeti 28:06 ... he was like the Baltimore mayor or something. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 28:08 But with just the amount of money-

Saagar Enjeti 28:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:10 ... that's involved in these decisions, the amount of money that's involved in the, you know, an influence and sharing influence and, and g- getting people to like your perspective.

Saagar Enjeti 28:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:21 And then the really gross thing is when they leave office, when politicians, particularly the president, leaves office, and then they get these fantastic paydays-

Krystal Ball 28:28 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:29 ... to just speak.

Saagar Enjeti 28:29 Here's my favorite part.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Would anybody really wanna pay to hear Cl- Hillary Clinton speak?

Saagar Enjeti 28:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:34 Just fucking imagine being the type of person that's like, "Uh, I got some fucking hot $1500 tickets to hear old Hill."

Saagar Enjeti 28:40 $250 grand, right?

Krystal Ball 28:41 Insane.

Saagar Enjeti 28:41 My favorite example of this we covered recently. The former US Ambassador to China, Max Baucus, he was on, you know, also Senate Banking Commission, is now on the board for Alibaba, which is one of the biggest Chinese companies.

Joe Rogan 28:54 Whoa.

Saagar Enjeti 28:54 And then in the middle of all this stuff around Chinese tariffs and, you know, coronavirus and all that stuff, he's out there on CNN and on Chinese state media being like, "Trump is Hitler," like, "Do ... What he's doing is good."

Joe Rogan 29:05 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 29:05 And I'm like, he was the ambassador to China-

Joe Rogan 29:07 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 29:07 ... and now he's getting paid by one of the largest Chinese companies. I mean, which, you know, in China, there's no such thing really as-

Joe Rogan 29:12 Right, because the government-

Saagar Enjeti 29:14 ... like, private business. And it's like, it's just the ... It's out in the open. I mean, Obama's ... Another great example. Obama's, I think it's a former NSC director for cybersecurity went to go work for ZTE, which is a Chinese technology. I mean, for cybersecurity. Went to go lobby, is now a lobbyist on behalf of ZTE.

Joe Rogan 29:31 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 29:31 It's just out ... It's naked.

Krystal Ball 29:32 Well-

Saagar Enjeti 29:32 It's naked.

Joe Rogan 29:32 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 29:32 ... we were ta- back when, you know, during Ukraine-gate when we were-

Saagar Enjeti 29:36 Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 29:36 ... talking about, you know, Hunter Biden earning these big paychecks on this Ukrainian-

Joe Rogan 29:40 Hey, he deserved it.

Krystal Ball 29:41 ... natural gas. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 29:42 He's a genius.

Joe Rogan 29:42 He's a natural gas expert.

Saagar Enjeti 29:43 He's a natural gas expert.

Krystal Ball 29:43 And so, I mean, like-

Joe Rogan 29:44 90 grand a month is nothing.

Saagar Enjeti 29:45 Let it go.

Krystal Ball 29:47 No one is saying (laughs) no one is saying that this is illegal, but that's like exactly the point.

Saagar Enjeti 29:51 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 29:51 So we have Congressman Ted Lieu on, who's a Democrat from California, and we're like, "You know, is this okay?" It's like, people sit on boards. They earn money.

Saagar Enjeti 29:59 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 29:59 This is just-

Joe Rogan 29:59 Wow.

Krystal Ball 30:00 ... because this is ... They really think about it that way. This is just the way that the town operates. And it's, you know, it's easy to look at these individual examples and be disgusted by them, but the, the bottom line is, it's a much deeper problem than that. We, we covered a poll recently that was actually done by The Hill and HarrisX.

Saagar Enjeti 30:17 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 30:18 People said their number one political issue was corruption. Like, beyond climate change or healthcare or whatever, the one, the number one thing that they were most concerned about was political corruption. And you look at what is happening in the country right now, and the fact that our institutions have no credibility, that there's no expectation that you could effect change through traditional channels. I mean, that feeds into exactly the rage that's exploding across the country. We covered before coronavirus, right? And 40 million-plus Americans unemployed, and hundreds of thu- you know, 100,000-plus dead, and before riots broke out, and before George Floyd was killed, and before all of that, we covered this poll where 40% of Americans, I think it was 43%-

Saagar Enjeti 31:03 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 31:04 ... said when they think of our cultural and social institutions, they just want to burn it all down. 40%. Like, what does that mean in a context of a democracy?

Joe Rogan 31:15 T- how did they all come to that phrase?

Saagar Enjeti 31:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Was it like a multiple choice?

Krystal Ball 31:17 That was the, that was the question. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 31:18 They were like, "Do you agree with this?"

Krystal Ball 31:19 That was the question. What is the question? "Do you agree with this?"

Saagar Enjeti 31:19 They were like, "Do you agree with this phrase?"

Krystal Ball 31:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:21 Well, that seems a little leading on, isn't it?

Saagar Enjeti 31:22 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 31:22 I mean-

Joe Rogan 31:23 'Cause most people are just so ... They're so-

Saagar Enjeti 31:24 But even if they say they agree with it, like that's kind of ...

Krystal Ball 31:27 But think about, but think about-

Joe Rogan 31:27 Yes. True. But what are the options? What, what ... I would like to see if it's a multiple choice test.

Saagar Enjeti 31:31 I actually-

Krystal Ball 31:31 What's the other (laughs) ?

Saagar Enjeti 31:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:31 What was the other?

Krystal Ball 31:31 But think o- think of it another-

Joe Rogan 31:32 Suck up all the politicians.

Krystal Ball 31:34 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 31:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:34 You know, give your money and ask no questions, or burn it all down.

Saagar Enjeti 31:37 It is good to be skeptical of polling questions. It is good to be skeptical.

Krystal Ball 31:40 Very true.

Joe Rogan 31:40 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 31:40 But-

Krystal Ball 31:41 But on the other hand, when you consider the fact that the largest pool of citizens in the country aren't Trump voters or Hillary voters or Biden voters or whatever, they're non-voters.

Saagar Enjeti 31:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:50 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 31:50 And these are people who have said-

Joe Rogan 31:51 That's true.

Krystal Ball 31:52 ... like, "This isn't worth it. This doesn't reflect my ... This is not going to mean jack shit for me in my life." And if you look at that number and then you consider what you see happening across the country, where people, again, they feel like they have ... are so disgusted with what's going on, and they're restless and masked and, like, have had all of their-... normal tools of being numbed with infotainment and sugar and all those things, and sports, sort of taken away from them, you start to understand what we're seeing.

Saagar Enjeti 32:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:21 It's really a perfect storm.

Saagar Enjeti 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 32:23 Completely.

Joe Rogan 32:23 I mean, w- we've never experienced anything like this before and it's fascinating to see how the thin vis- veneer of civilization can be chipped through. And you just see the- the really deep pool of despair that's underneath it as there's so much madness going on in the streets today. And it's so hard to get a bead on how this is all playing out, like how it's all being organized, how these cops feel like they can just shoot people with rubber bullets and tear gas out in the open-

Krystal Ball 32:51 Insane.

Joe Rogan 32:51 ... in front of everybody.

Krystal Ball 32:52 When people are, I mean, you know-

Joe Rogan 32:54 Mourning the death of a guy who was murdered by a bad cop.

Krystal Ball 32:56 And where it's on cam- I mean-

Joe Rogan 32:58 Yes.

Krystal Ball 32:58 ... that's what we saw on CNN.

Joe Rogan 32:59 Yes.

Krystal Ball 32:59 We're watching live, peaceful protesters-

Joe Rogan 33:02 Having reporters getting shot.

Krystal Ball 33:04 Reporters getting shot, get- getting arrested.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Yes.

Krystal Ball 33:06 And- and to think, oh, it's just rubber bullets. I mean, have you seen these wounds that people-

Joe Rogan 33:10 Listen, horrible.

Krystal Ball 33:10 Like this is tear gas, rubber bullets-

Saagar Enjeti 33:12 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:12 ... flashbang grenades used on-

Joe Rogan 33:13 People losing eyes.

Saagar Enjeti 33:14 That was terrible, that photojournalist.

Krystal Ball 33:16 ... peaceful pro- It's, absolutely-

Joe Rogan 33:17 Yes. Well, it's, you know, some-

Krystal Ball 33:17 Her- She's actually a friend of mine, Linda.

Saagar Enjeti 33:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:19 She really lost her eye?

Krystal Ball 33:20 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 33:21 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:21 Blind in that eye.

Joe Rogan 33:22 (sighs)

Krystal Ball 33:22 It's horrific. And you- and, uh, just a- a beat on her because she's, um, she's actually a really important voice. She came to prominence because she wrote a piece about the struggle that she had experienced as a low-income working class person, like just really raw and honest. And that went viral. And she, from that, was able to write a book and become a journalist. So she's one of the few journalist voices who actually has any connectivity to what regular people go through day-to-day.

Saagar Enjeti 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 33:53 So, you know, I mean, it's just, like, awful to see that sort of thing happening to her and to so many others.

Saagar Enjeti 33:59 Yeah. And I mean, Joe, one of the things I always appreciated about your commentary was about- about talking about human violence and, like, the propensity to violence, and how thin kind of the veneer of social order and so much of, like, what that is and what it actually means to, like, live in a society where- whenever you see something like that break down. And I've just been thinking about that so much, like, in the context of what we see right now, 'cause I- I mean, uh, it- it's all so crazy, like, to see footage of people just, like, they feel like they can just loot with impunity.

Joe Rogan 34:28 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 34:28 Right? I mean, you're- like last night in New York City, it's total destruction. I mean, there's- there's collection-

Joe Rogan 34:32 Well, that's this giant failure on de Blasio's part.

Saagar Enjeti 34:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:35 He's incorporating this ancient strategy of letting people burn out.

Saagar Enjeti 34:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:40 This is a- this is a strategy that they employed in the 1960s.

Saagar Enjeti 34:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:44 Uh, and in fact, Giuliani was just talking about this in an interview, the difference between the- when- when he ran New York City. You could say what you want about Giuliani, but one thing he did do is he made it safer. He made New York City a safer place to be. He- probably, you know, people-

Krystal Ball 34:56 Well, crime rates did go down across the country in all cities, though, not just in New York during that time.

Joe Rogan 35:01 That's good. But in New York, particularly-

Saagar Enjeti 35:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:03 ... it was a crime-ridden city, and it went down while he was there.

Saagar Enjeti 35:07 A lot, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:07 I'm sure across the country it helped as well. But what happened in New York City was he's letting these people loot.

Saagar Enjeti 35:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:15 He's telling the cops to stand down. So these businesses that are all supporting the mayor, supporting the tax- uh, with taxes, supporting the police officers, they're watching their businesses get smashed and looted. 5th Avenue is destroyed.

Krystal Ball 35:29 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 35:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:29 6th Avenue, destroyed.

Saagar Enjeti 35:30 Scorned.

Joe Rogan 35:30 Hundreds and hundreds of buildings with smashed windows and all their products gone.

Saagar Enjeti 35:35 And this happe-

Krystal Ball 35:35 But then you see- but then you also see, like, you know, police SUVs driving into protesters and-

Joe Rogan 35:41 Yes.

Krystal Ball 35:41 ... you know, tear gassing indiscriminately. So to me, it's not a question of-

Joe Rogan 35:46 But there's a big difference.

Krystal Ball 35:46 ... harder or more aggressive policing. It's the tactics that make- make no sense.

Saagar Enjeti 35:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:50 Here's where- where I disagree. Protestors should be allowed to protest.

Krystal Ball 35:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:54 There's a giant difference between what those people are doing when they're saying, "This is outrageous. We need change. We need a radical overhaul-"

Krystal Ball 36:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:01 "... of the- the system-"

Krystal Ball 36:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:02 "... because there's too many corrupt cops." Let those people do what they're doing.

Saagar Enjeti 36:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:06 But they're not looting.

Krystal Ball 36:08 Right, that's-

Joe Rogan 36:08 The looters are different people.

Krystal Ball 36:09 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 36:10 This has been- this has been the hardest thing for Krystal and I to cover. Like, uh, it's funny 'cause we were coming on here, and we were like...

Krystal Ball 36:17 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 36:17 And we know all the attention is c- And it's like this, there is nothing else that- where the battle lines are so drawn, where, frankly, there's probably the biggest difference in our philosophy on this. 'Cause I agree with you, Joe. I mean, I think, and I've told this to Krystal, which is that the beacon was sent out. When that Minneapolis mayor let that target go, and they let those affordable housing complexes burn, and they let the policing burn, that was it. And it was just all across the city. And thes- this was an intentional choice. This was out of political correctness. They're like, "We don't want to deploy the police because that would seem like we're impugning upon these protesters and we're- we're," you know, whatever. And they allowed... I mean, they allowed this target and this... and it just went and it caught fire. And that's why, like, as he said, look, if people want... People should be able to protest in this country. And if there are piece-of-shit cops who kick them in the face, you know, I've seen terrible videos of some of these things, some of the things that they're doing, awful. But you can't allow looting. You can't-

Krystal Ball 37:11 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 37:11 ... allow these businesses... I mean, uh, and this is the thing I wanna emphasize. I mean, these... Look, people are like, "Oh, you know, pr- it's just property." But, and sometimes it's corporate property, but sometimes this is a whole guy's life. You think that guy-

Joe Rogan 37:21 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 37:21 ... has insurance?

Krystal Ball 37:22 But, you know, here's the thing and why the- where there's such hypocrisy, not from Saagar, who's been consistent on this, but from the right in general, is like, the response to coronavirus lit 40% of small businesses on fire.

Joe Rogan 37:32 Yep.

Krystal Ball 37:32 They didn't give a fuck.

Saagar Enjeti 37:33 Right.

Krystal Ball 37:33 They didn't care. It's opportunistic caring about it now, mostly from the right. And there's also, look, if you think about-

Joe Rogan 37:41 Well, I think-

Krystal Ball 37:41 ... if you think about rule of law, right, you think about law and order, and how do you get to a place where... I disagree with you. I don't think it is all different people. It's very easy to be like, "Oh, it's all Antifa or outside agitators or whatever." I don't think that's all true. There are certainly-...criminals who are opportunistically using the breakdown of the moment to, you know, to loot, to vandalize, to do whatever that they're going to do. But I think what is harder to recogni- reckon with is that you have actually, quote unquote, "ordinary, typically law-abiding people" who feel like the, the moment has broken down to that, the extent that they would also engage in those kinds of acts. That's a harder thing to deal with. But when you think about the moment that we're living in, like the, the rules and the laws that have been set have never been that far from, like that disconnected from what is moral and what is just. If you look at four trillion to corporations and everyone else, mass unemployment and small businesses destroyed, with, when you look at the fact that of those officers who murdered George Floyd, only one of them has been charged. The other three are still free. They haven't been arrested, they haven't been charged, they haven't been anything. And meanwhile, you've got, you know, 4,000 protesters, you've got journalists on TV who are being charged. And if you go back even farther than that, like the financial collapse, and you're allowed, if you're rich, to collapse the entire economy with zero consequence. And so again, this isn't like morally justifying things that are morally unjustifiable, which is what you're talking about, but you also have to understand that that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is a systemic breakdown of the legitimacy of rule of law and law and order that leads to not just outside agitators or white nationalists or Russia or Antifa-

Joe Rogan 39:34 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 39:34 ... or whoever it is that people are pretending that this is doing all of this, to where you have regular citizens who are like, "Fuck this. I am going to be out there among them. I'm gonna be defacing..." I walk, uh, you know, in DC I walk by the Department of the Treasury and it's got Black Lives Matter scrawled on it, right? They're intentionally going to the high-end parts of town. Like, this is actually, in many cases, very political and very specific. I think that's a harder thing to have to reckon with, that that dividing line between these are the good law-abiding ones and these are the bad ones, and let's just crack down on the bad ones, that line has become very blurry, and that's why it's such an incredibly hard situation we have.

Joe Rogan 40:12 I agree with a lot of what you said.

Krystal Ball 40:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:14 But when we're talking about protesters and the cops shooting and attacking protesters-

Krystal Ball 40:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:19 ... you're really talking about people just standing there protesting.

Krystal Ball 40:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:22 What I'm talking about is people actually in the act of looting. Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 40:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:25 When they cross that line-

Krystal Ball 40:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:26 ... there's no justification-

Krystal Ball 40:28 It's criminal behavior, yes.

Joe Rogan 40:28 ... for smashing into someone's business and stealing their goods.

Krystal Ball 40:31 Agreed.

Joe Rogan 40:31 I understand that people are upset that $4 trillion went to these corporations. I think the logic from the right about this was if we, you fund the corporations and keep them running, they'll employ these people and keep the society, uh, running-

Saagar Enjeti 40:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:45 ... as smoothly as possible during this unprecedented pandemic.

Saagar Enjeti 40:48 Let me pick up on that, Joe, because what it is is that w- you're right, that was the philosophy, but it's often a mistaken one. And that there is actually a better option, which is what we talk about so much, and what Krystal said, which is, you're right. From the right, there's a lot of concern-trolling around small businesses when, let's be honest, they allowed a p- a cap to, uh, the White House, I mean, advisors, Rep- Senate Republicans allowed a cap to be put on the Paycheck Protection Program, which was for small businesses. They allowed that to go capped and allowed it to go dry, and had political fights about it. There has always been an option to put, you know, this is a right/left thing, Senator Josh Hawley, Senator Cory Gardner, and, uh, I think it's Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, they have plans to put Americans on their payroll, to have the federal government subsidize that payroll up until, until the end of this Great Depression. And in that way, you keep businesses together, right? You keep businesses. You have, they have the Paycheck Protection Program, you have the workers, they don't have to go on unemployment or anything, and you can scale that up and no business has to go out. They don't have to fail. They don't have to do all of this. So for me, this whole crisis-

Krystal Ball 41:46 And you don't have 40 million-plus-

Saagar Enjeti 41:49 Right, 40 million unemployed.

Krystal Ball 41:49 ... unemployed. I mean, we, we had an intentional government policy of unemployment.

Saagar Enjeti 41:53 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 41:53 That was our policy-

Saagar Enjeti 41:54 It's crazy, right?

Krystal Ball 41:54 ... was like let's have millions, mass unemployment-

Joe Rogan 41:57 Okay, but what would you-

Krystal Ball 41:57 ... where you lose your health insurance as well.

Saagar Enjeti 41:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 What would you rather them do if you have a pandemic that, look, what it turned out to be-

Saagar Enjeti 42:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:03 ... was a, uh, big difference from what we thought it was going to be.

Saagar Enjeti 42:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:06 It was very different. We thought it was gonna kill 10% of the people.

Saagar Enjeti 42:09 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:09 We thought it was gonna be a devastating pandemic that was gonna sweep through the country and all our friends were gonna die. That's what we thought.

Krystal Ball 42:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:14 Turns out to not be the case. We're lucky-

Saagar Enjeti 42:16 Well-

Joe Rogan 42:17 ... in a, in some ways.

Saagar Enjeti 42:18 When you ask that-

Joe Rogan 42:18 So, but hold on a second.

Saagar Enjeti 42:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 42:19 When they were trying to figure out a way to mitigate this situation-

Krystal Ball 42:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:24 ... they decided we're gonna shut down society-

Krystal Ball 42:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:27 ... because we wanna protect lives over money.

Krystal Ball 42:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:30 What would you have done?

Krystal Ball 42:30 Well, uh, the alternative... Look, there was always gonna be pain. There's no doubt about that, and you can't, you know, legislate away from that. But other countries did it much better and they spent less money, where they essentially nationalized payrolls. So people stay attached to their jobs, but they don't, they aren't going in. It is still shut down.

Joe Rogan 42:46 What countries did that?

Krystal Ball 42:47 It, um, Denmark-

Saagar Enjeti 42:47 Denmark and the UK.

Krystal Ball 42:48 ... did it.

Joe Rogan 42:48 It's much smaller countries, right?

Saagar Enjeti 42:50 Yeah, certainly.

Krystal Ball 42:50 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 42:50 But actually in terms of their percentage of GDP and all of that. I mean-

Krystal Ball 42:53 They spent less, proportionally.

Saagar Enjeti 42:54 ... so they could've done this-

Krystal Ball 42:54 Yeah, it could have been done, it could have been done much, much cheaper. They did it for the airlines. So the airline bailout, which was custom written, included a provision that you have to keep your workers, and so we're gonna give you this money and basically backstop payroll. And so look, I mean they're messing around and then as soon as this ends, they want us to lay people off. But if you backstop the payroll and essentially nationalize it, especially in our country where your health insurance is tied to your job, so now not only do we have people who are unemployed, but they're losing their health insurance during a pandemic. That just compounds everything and is, is absolutely unconscionable. And meanwhile, you know, lots of big corporations got like custom written legislation for themselves and 40% of small businesses told the Chamber of Commerce that they will be closing their doors in the next six months.

Saagar Enjeti 43:39 In terms of the cost, I'm, I'm, I'm fairly certain that Pramila Jayapal one over three months was 600 billion. So yeah, it's a lot of money, but you know, three, you know, 2.3 trillion was the first one. Extra couple of hundred billion for the Paycheck Protection Program. In the scale of what we did, and especially if you include the four trillion with the Federal Reserve-

Krystal Ball 43:55 The money was not the problem.

Saagar Enjeti 43:56 Yeah, money is not the... This is an issue of political will.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Is this something that could have been agreed upon by both parties? Is this something that could have gone through?

Saagar Enjeti 44:03 By the corporate?

Joe Rogan 44:04 No.

Krystal Ball 44:04 No.

Joe Rogan 44:04 No.

Saagar Enjeti 44:04 By the corporate left and the corporate right, no way.

Joe Rogan 44:06 So what would you-

Saagar Enjeti 44:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:07 ... have done, say if you had a magic wand-

Saagar Enjeti 44:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:09 ... and you were the president, like how do you, how do you mitigate this?

Saagar Enjeti 44:12 Well.

Joe Rogan 44:12 How do you-

Saagar Enjeti 44:12 This is my biggest frustration with s- the White House, which is that you have this populist president who like actually understands like very much why he got elected, but you have-

Joe Rogan 44:22 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 44:22 ... so many of the people... I know she's rolling her eyes.

Joe Rogan 44:26 Krystal's not buying it.

Krystal Ball 44:26 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 44:26 Krystal doesn't like it.

Joe Rogan 44:26 She's rolling her eyes. She's bobbing her head.

Krystal Ball 44:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:28 She's got a lot of movement. A lot of movement.

Saagar Enjeti 44:30 You, but he has all these people who work for him from kind of the old regime-

Joe Rogan 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 44:35 ... basically was allowed to staff up and those are the people who were like, "Let's cap the Paycheck Protection Program." Who were like, "Hey, you know, we just passed this tr- this $2.3 trillion plan or what, this bill. Let's look, wait and see how it goes." As the e- you know, the unemployment numbers begin to tick up, mass small business failure, all these other things, and that's... The fundamental tension of the Trump administration is that there was no like, there were no professional populists, so to speak, right? Like there was no professional apparatus of people on the right who actually held and understood why Donald Trump is president of the United States.

Krystal Ball 45:09 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 45:09 And this is like, this is what gets back to what I talked about earlier, about the incentive structure, about that system, the think tank, the revolving door. That is an effort to maintain power over the policy sphere, because if you control that, it doesn't matter what the people think.

Krystal Ball 45:23 Yeah. But I mean-

Saagar Enjeti 45:24 It only matters what happens.

Krystal Ball 45:25 Here's, here's why I was-

Saagar Enjeti 45:26 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 45:27 ... making those faces.

Joe Rogan 45:27 Why she's rolling her eyes.

Krystal Ball 45:27 Because I mean look, he's the president and he makes his own choices, and if he understood like that there was this need to go more economically left and do it, then he could, he could do it. But the reality is he spent his whole, most of his political capital his first term like giving away tax cuts to corporations. Same thing any other Republican would have done. So that's why I sort of roll my eyes.

Saagar Enjeti 45:47 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 45:47 I don't think he cares about anything outside of like winning the day's news. Like I really don't think he gives a shit about anything other than that.

Saagar Enjeti 45:52 You know, I mean, see this is, this is the thing though. I, I mean I've met Trump, you know, I've interviewed him a couple of time, four or five, four times I think, and this-

Joe Rogan 45:58 What is he like?

Saagar Enjeti 46:00 Exactly what you see. Exactly what you see on TV. Same guy, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:03 Do you feel like you got through the layers to talk to a human?

Saagar Enjeti 46:08 (laughs) No, because he's always on.

Krystal Ball 46:09 (laughs) I don't think there's anything else.

Saagar Enjeti 46:11 That's the thing. There's... No, that's the thing. He's al-

Joe Rogan 46:12 You don't think there's anything in the air?

Saagar Enjeti 46:12 You know, my favorite thing I ever asked Trump, I was like, "What are people going to remember you for in 100 years?" And he was like, "Veterans' choice." And I was like, "I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say-"

Joe Rogan 46:21 Veterans' choice?

Krystal Ball 46:21 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 46:21 "... that's probably not it." Right?

Joe Rogan 46:22 Jesus Christ.

Saagar Enjeti 46:23 I'm like sitting in there, I, I... It occurred with me with Trump, like I'm in the Oval and like you're like, "Man, that's where like Kissinger was sitting. Like, man, this JFK picture, and like Eisenhower," like there's stuff.

Joe Rogan 46:32 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 46:32 I don't think he thinks about any of that.

Joe Rogan 46:33 What did he mean-

Saagar Enjeti 46:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:34 ... by veterans' choice? That he was-

Saagar Enjeti 46:35 So-

Joe Rogan 46:35 ... the veterans' choice?

Saagar Enjeti 46:36 No, that he was taking care of veterans through like a veteran's healthcare program.

Krystal Ball 46:39 It was like a healthcare program.

Saagar Enjeti 46:40 He just started rattling off like why he would, you know, like all his... Basically like the talking points and like why he's great, but... But I realized, I'm like Trump lives completely in the moment and he doesn't really have that like, he doesn't really think about things in that historical context.

Joe Rogan 46:54 Well they say that-

Saagar Enjeti 46:54 It's like kind of fascinating.

Joe Rogan 46:55 ... during the briefings-

Saagar Enjeti 46:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:56 ... he, he only pays attention if his name's brought up.

Saagar Enjeti 46:58 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 46:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:58 So they, they throw his name in there-

Saagar Enjeti 47:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:00 ... every now and again just to-

Saagar Enjeti 47:02 Right.

Krystal Ball 47:04 Just so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:04 What? Hey. It's so odd.

Krystal Ball 47:06 Sara has to do the same thing with me when we're getting ready for the show in the morning.

Saagar Enjeti 47:08 (laughs) He's a, yeah.

Krystal Ball 47:09 Just like that.

Joe Rogan 47:09 I feel like we deserve him. I feel like-

Saagar Enjeti 47:11 He's a facsimile figure.

Joe Rogan 47:12 We asked for him...

Krystal Ball 47:12 Well, that's the thing.

Joe Rogan 47:13 ... and we deserve him and he's the perfect president for this time.

Saagar Enjeti 47:15 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 47:15 Well, think ab- think about... I, I think you're so right and to, to make it like a not a partisan thing, our politics are so shallow, hollow, theater, cable news based. They're like Twitter politics, and you can see it not just with Trump who's like the ultimate incarnation of that, but during this pandemic. Andrew Cuomo is like this celebrity governor.

Joe Rogan 47:38 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 47:38 Democrats are like, "God, we've got to get him in there. He's amazing. He's doing..." New York had the worst outbreak of any state, and that's not all on him, but it is partly on him.

Joe Rogan 47:48 How is it on him though?

Krystal Ball 47:49 He-

Joe Rogan 47:49 Because it doesn't-

Saagar Enjeti 47:50 It's the, it's the nursing home thing.

Joe Rogan 47:50 ... because of the dynamics of the city itself?

Krystal Ball 47:52 So let me tell you a, a couple things. Yes. In part, yes. But also they shut down later, right, than other places like Washington, like California, which had much lower outbreak. He mandated that nursing homes take back in-

Joe Rogan 48:05 Yes.

Krystal Ball 48:05 ... and 43% of coronavirus deaths are nursing homes.

Joe Rogan 48:08 Yes.

Krystal Ball 48:08 So this is a nursing home pandemic. Mandated that they take back in recovering COVID patients and he-... happens that he got a, you know, million dollar plus campaign check for his reelection through a affiliated committee before he got reelected. And so, he also put ... made sure to put into place a liability for all their executives-

Joe Rogan 48:29 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 48:29 ... so that if they don't do a good job, they can't be held liable. And that, data shows, is correlated with increased COVID death and infection rates-

Joe Rogan 48:39 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 48:39 ... because they know that they're not gonna be held responsible, so there's a lower threshold there. So, there were very specific decisions that were really bad and fueled the worst outbreak in the entire country. But because he can get on TV-

Joe Rogan 48:50 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 48:50 ... and give a commanding press conference-

Joe Rogan 48:53 Well-

Krystal Ball 48:53 ... that's all people really care about and he's got, like, 80% approval ratings.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Yeah. Yeah, has he spoken about the recovering COVID patients being readmitted to the nursing homes?

Krystal Ball 49:01 Not much-

Joe Rogan 49:01 Uh, no.

Krystal Ball 49:01 ... because his brother-

Joe Rogan 49:03 This is the best part. Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:03 ... on CNN is primetime anchor, Chris Cuomo.

Joe Rogan 49:06 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:06 And they do these ridiculous interviews where they, like, joke around about how big his nose is, rather than asking-

Joe Rogan 49:12 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:12 ... questions like that. And look, it'd be one thing if you were gonna have your brother on once or twice, like I get it.

Joe Rogan 49:17 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:17 Fine, you know. But, no, night after night after night, it's the show of the two brothers chumming it up while people are dying.

Joe Rogan 49:25 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:25 This is a politician who's supposed to be held to account.

Joe Rogan 49:27 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 49:28 That is supposed to be his role as a journalist.

Saagar Enjeti 49:29 He's, he's fucking around with his brother, joking about the size of their nose and the swab, while there are, like, literally thousands of el- elderly people who died because, explicitly because of this decision. Now, we're not saying he knew, but ... of the decision, but, like, there needs to be some, like, scrutiny and accountability of that. Nobody at CNN wants to touch it 'cause Chris Cuomo's the anchor. Nobody at MSNBC wants to touch it.

Krystal Ball 49:48 'Cause he's a Democrat.

Saagar Enjeti 49:49 Because, 'cause he's the biggest Democrat and they all live in New York and they all probably have dinner with each other. And of course, I mean, people on the right are talking about it because he's a Democrat.

Krystal Ball 49:56 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 49:56 But, like, there's no op- ... I mean, outside of Krystal-

Krystal Ball 49:58 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 49:58 ... and a few others on the left, you won't hear anything.

Krystal Ball 50:00 And on the right, they're total hypocrites too. Fox News picks it up with this, like, liability story and how he gets this through. Meanwhile, Mitch McConnell's proposing the same thing at a national level and they're, like, A-okay with that. So, I mean, this gets back to the sort of central concept of the show-

Joe Rogan 50:15 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 50:16 ... which is (laughs) we don't do that shit.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 50:17 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 50:17 Like, if it's a Democrat, we're gonna, you know-

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yes.

Krystal Ball 50:19 We're like, "You fucked up on this thing."

Joe Rogan 50:21 Right.

Krystal Ball 50:21 Like, "Let's talk about it." If it's a Republican, we're gonna do the same thing. And that's the way, I mean, at a basic level, that's the way it's supposed to be. And it, it's a big, big problem, again, going back to this moment that we're living in, because no one trusts anyone.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Right.

Krystal Ball 50:36 And for good reason. Even if you are an MSNBC watcher and you know it and you love it and you love Rachel Maddow and whatever, you know you're getting spun.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Yes.

Krystal Ball 50:45 You know that they're picking certain stories that are gonna, like, pique your interest-

Joe Rogan 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 50:50 ... and they're ignoring every ... The, the end of every ... The, the lesson of every single news story cannot be, "Ergo, Trump is bad."

Saagar Enjeti 50:56 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 50:56 Like, that cannot be the conclusion of literally-

Joe Rogan 50:59 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 50:59 Right.

Krystal Ball 50:59 ... every news story. And over on Fox News, the end and conclusion of every news story cannot be-

Joe Rogan 51:04 Fake news.

Krystal Ball 51:04 ... "Ergo, Democrats are evil and un-American."

Saagar Enjeti 51:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:07 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 51:07 Right? Every ... We, we all know this. No, people are not that stupid.

Joe Rogan 51:10 No, they're not. And I, I, I couldn't agree more and that's one of the things that I find very refreshing about your show, is that you guys don't exhibit that kind of partisanship. You just say what you think, and if you think people are fucking up, you say it.

Krystal Ball 51:22 We try. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 51:23 My- ... You have no idea-

Krystal Ball 51:24 We try. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 51:24 ... like I said, how much pushback we get from, like, the institutional elements.

Joe Rogan 51:27 You guys stop reading.

Saagar Enjeti 51:28 Yeah, no, but I mean-

Krystal Ball 51:28 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 51:28 ... these are people who have me in their phone number.

Joe Rogan 51:30 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 51:30 Right? These are, like, like-

Joe Rogan 51:31 Change your number, bro.

Saagar Enjeti 51:32 ... powerful people, man.

Joe Rogan 51:33 I change my number every six months. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 51:35 They're like, "Uh, saw what, saw what you said about the boss."

Joe Rogan 51:36 I'm not joking.

Saagar Enjeti 51:37 "Really?"

Krystal Ball 51:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:38 No.

Saagar Enjeti 51:38 I love that.

Joe Rogan 51:38 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 51:38 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:38 Just keep moving.

Saagar Enjeti 51:39 You should.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Keep moving.

Saagar Enjeti 51:40 Right. Like, saw what you said about the boss.

Krystal Ball 51:40 You should never get random texts from peop-

Saagar Enjeti 51:42 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 51:42 ... from people that are just, like-

Joe Rogan 51:43 Not when you change it every six months.

Saagar Enjeti 51:44 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 51:44 ... just ... Really?

Joe Rogan 51:44 No.

Krystal Ball 51:44 That's a good strategy.

Saagar Enjeti 51:46 I was gonna say.

Joe Rogan 51:46 I have one old phone that I check every, like, four or five days.

Saagar Enjeti 51:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:50 And then, um-

Saagar Enjeti 51:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:51 ... my phone that I connect with with friends. Just, that fucking thing moves around.

Saagar Enjeti 51:55 That's good strategy.

Krystal Ball 51:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:57 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 51:58 Smart. Very wise.

Joe Rogan 51:59 I just think that you have to develop strategies to protect your consciousness. You know, you really do.

Krystal Ball 52:03 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 52:03 Well, especially at your level. I mean, I can't even imagine what-

Joe Rogan 52:05 It's-

Saagar Enjeti 52:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:06 It's unmanageable, so I don't manage it.

Saagar Enjeti 52:08 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 52:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:09 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 52:09 He just opts out altogether.

Joe Rogan 52:11 Yeah, just keep moving. Just keep moving. Stay busy.

Saagar Enjeti 52:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Stay busy and, and don't take yourself seriously and just keep moving.

Saagar Enjeti 52:18 Definitely.

Joe Rogan 52:18 Yeah. I feel like, um, there's a real movement towards what you guys are doing though. I, I feel like it's the future, 'cause I feel like people are fed up with that Chris Cuomo shit. They're fed up with that Rachel Maddow shit. And no disrespect to either one of those, those people, but, like, I was w- ... Chris Cuomo was doing something the other day and I was watching him where he's basically justifying riots.

Saagar Enjeti 52:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:40 And I was like, "Oh, man, did someone write this for you? Is this how you really feel? Did you think this out?" 'Cause this, I think ... Of ... All I could get from that is, "Trump needs to be removed from office, so let's come up with some sort of a reason why he's responsible for these riots, and these riots are good, and these riots have been historically done when people feel powerless and we-"

Saagar Enjeti 53:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:03 That's all true. I, I, uh ... Look, it's, it's a terrible position to be a young person right now, and this is what you see when you're seeing looting. You're seeing a lot of these fucking young white kids-

Saagar Enjeti 53:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:11 ... that have, probably, not a political thought in their fucking dopey heads, and they're just running in to get free Nikes. And that's really what's going on.

Saagar Enjeti 53:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:18 I've watched about 100 videos of people looting, I might've seen four Black people.

Saagar Enjeti 53:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:23 It's always white kids stealing sneakers.

Saagar Enjeti 53:25 Well, it's kind of amazing, right? And this is, I mean, this is what really gets me, which is that ... This is a pro- ... George Floyd's family has come out and said, "Please stop the violence."

Joe Rogan 53:33 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 53:34 Can we ... I mean, how many times do you see that? I mean-

Joe Rogan 53:35 Well, you remember Rodney King after-

Saagar Enjeti 53:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:37 ... when the riots were going on.

Saagar Enjeti 53:38 Of course.

Joe Rogan 53:38 He's like, "Please, can we all get along?"

Krystal Ball 53:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:40 And it was him, personally.

Krystal Ball 53:41 That, I think ... And I think, I think that's ... Like, that piece ... Understanding who and why is important to understanding what to do.

Joe Rogan 53:50 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 53:50 Right? Because if it's just ... What I have seen hasn't just been, you know, in terms of looting, I don't know specifically, but I think it's very easy to say, "Oh, it's just this type of person. It's just that type of person." And to take out of it any of the sort of, like, more radical, not just smashing up stores and that kind of stuff, but, like, graffiti and more, you know, defying curfews and those sorts of things. And so, if, if you view the problem as just, like, violent protest, like the problem is violent protestors, we have to deal with that, then that merits one response. And that's the direction that Trump is going in, is, like, calling the military, which I think is fucking scary. Like, calling in active duty military to every city in the country. Like we saw with the protestors who got, you know, the tear gas and the rubber bullets in front of the White House, who were peacefully protesting. That shit, to me, is scary. And frankly, the fact that Democrats and-... quote unquote journalists on TV have acted like the world is ending every time Trump does anything. When he does do something like invoke the Insurrection Act and say, "We're looking at sending the, uh, military into American cities," there is no more language of, "This is unprecedented, this is outrageous, this is, you know, different than what we've seen in the past" left, because they burned that up on every single thing that-

Joe Rogan 55:11 Yeah, it's the crying bulls, right?

Saagar Enjeti 55:11 Right.

Krystal Ball 55:11 ... that Trump has ever done. They have cried wolf.

Saagar Enjeti 55:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:13 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 55:13 That's exactly the case. Because I do think that this is a very different and very dangerous and volatile moment. But if you think that the protests are about the, the structure of a system that doesn't allow any redress for, you know, problems that people have been peacefully protesting about for a long fucking time-

Joe Rogan 55:33 Yes.

Krystal Ball 55:33 ... and not a thing has been done. If you think the protests are about, you know, a political system that will offer you the quote unquote choice of Donald Trump, who's like the Central Park Five dude and red lighting with his daddy and denying Black people housing and Charlottesville's fine people on both sides. Versus Joe Biden, who wrote the '94 Crime Bill, is unrepentant for it.

Saagar Enjeti 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 55:54 Was justifying it in s- with Charlemagne just recently-

Saagar Enjeti 55:57 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 55:57 ... and saying Hillary's wrong, apologize, uh, for it, et cetera, et cetera. Who, as part of this whole thing, went out and said, uh, you know, police shouldn't be shooting people in the heart, instead they should shoot them in the leg.

Saagar Enjeti 56:06 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 56:06 Like, train them to do that. Like-

Joe Rogan 56:07 (snorts)

Krystal Ball 56:07 ... when you look at those two choices-

Saagar Enjeti 56:09 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 56:09 ... you go, "What kind of a fucking choice is this?"

Joe Rogan 56:11 Yeah, it's...

Krystal Ball 56:11 Right? If you understand that as the legitimate part of the protest, then your response is gonna be very different than it's just like, "Oh, these are bad people. These are people we should deem as terrorists. We have to crack down on them. Let's call in the military." That shit ultimately never works, because look at 19 years in Afghanistan. What did we learn? Yeah, you can take the ground, but you can't hold it. You can't hold a society together with an aggressive militarized response. That's not gonna work over time. So if that's your only strategy, it's like, okay, then what? Then what are you gonna do? Are we gonna have curfews at 1:00 PM every day? Are you gonna have militaries holding down American cities every day? Because you have a significant chop of, chunk of the population that will no longer consent.

Saagar Enjeti 56:54 So I think that, I think on this particular one, this is probably where we disagree the most. Because, and, and she pointed this out, which is that, to me, it's about the restoration of law and order. And, and look, I mean, this is why you saw these, see Joy Reid, right? I mean, these people were putting out conspiracy theories that act... So, f- if, what, here's what happened.

Joe Rogan 57:14 I don't know what that is.

Saagar Enjeti 57:15 It's a... So let me... Well-

Joe Rogan 57:16 What did she say?

Saagar Enjeti 57:16 ... let me begin with the timeline, which is that the timeline was, you know, at first, in Minneapolis, the Target got looted, you know, the affordable housing complex went down. Everybody decided, okay, violence, looting, everything is fine. So they're basically justifying it on cable. Then what happened is a second night happened, a lot more violence and protests weren't... Uh, police and firefighters weren't visible. So Minnesota authorities started lying about how actually-

Krystal Ball 57:38 Yeah. It's crazy.

Saagar Enjeti 57:38 ... every single person arrested was out of state. Not true. Local news went and they found the, their arrests.

Krystal Ball 57:44 Saint Paul mayor came out-

Saagar Enjeti 57:45 The Saint Paul mayor said that on camera.

Krystal Ball 57:45 ... and said every one of the people that was arrested was, did not have a Minnesota address.

Saagar Enjeti 57:50 Right.

Krystal Ball 57:50 That was a blatant fucking lie.

Saagar Enjeti 57:51 Yeah, it was a lie.

Krystal Ball 57:51 80% of them were from the town.

Saagar Enjeti 57:53 And here's the, so why is it, why is th- that? Because then they start laundering through Joy Reid at MSNBC that it's actually a bunch of Russians and white nationalists.

Joe Rogan 58:02 What?

Saagar Enjeti 58:02 Who are the... Yeah, I shit you not. You can pull up her Twitter thread.

Joe Rogan 58:04 She said that?

Saagar Enjeti 58:05 You, and all of, and...

Joe Rogan 58:06 How is that lady still on TV? (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 58:07 Oh, especially with her blog posts-

Joe Rogan 58:09 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 58:09 ... and all that shit. But the real, this is what I want to get to.

Joe Rogan 58:11 So she got hacked?

Saagar Enjeti 58:11 Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 58:11 But that's the, that's the thing again. If you-

Saagar Enjeti 58:13 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 58:13 ... are wrong in the right-

Joe Rogan 58:15 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 58:16 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 58:16 ... ways-

Joe Rogan 58:16 Right.

Krystal Ball 58:16 ... then it's okay. Like...

Saagar Enjeti 58:17 The reason I'm bringing up Reid is because the legitimacy for the use of force for these people, it only applies if it's Russians or white nationalists.

Joe Rogan 58:27 God.

Saagar Enjeti 58:27 You're allowed to crack down on that. Whereas, so look, on the military front, let's think about our history. Eisenhower, 1957, calls in the 101st Airborne Division in order to forcibly integrate Little Rock High School to stop, to allow the Little Rock Nine to enter that school because a white supremacist violent mob and the local authorities could not be trusted to do so. I think that's a legitimate use. 1967, F- uh, LBJ calls in the military to qua- race riots in Detroit. I think that's legitimate. Rodney King, George H.W. Bush calls in the Marines in order to restore order. You have to restore and crack down exactly on the people we're talking about, these criminals. A lot of them are sociopathic criminals just taking advantage of the situation. And from that forward, we have to move and act within the political system. Now, Kristelle seems to think, I think, that acting within the political system is just not a choice at this point. But I disagree, because, I mean, even if you're on the left, like Joe Biden out today saying he endorses this Hakeem Jeffries bill on banning police chokeholds.

Krystal Ball 59:23 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 59:23 And I...

Krystal Ball 59:24 But why, but why is anyone paying attention right now?

Saagar Enjeti 59:27 I, I don't think-

Krystal Ball 59:28 And that's what's-

Saagar Enjeti 59:28 ... it's 'cause of violence.

Krystal Ball 59:28 That's what's uncomfortable. And so if you-

Saagar Enjeti 59:30 I just, I just reject the idea it's 'cause of violence.

Krystal Ball 59:30 Not vi- I'm not talking about violence.

Saagar Enjeti 59:32 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 59:32 And by the way, majority of the violence I've been seeing has been coming from the cops. And there's never as much focus... The, the example of, you know-

Joe Rogan 59:39 I could send you some videos.

Saagar Enjeti 59:40 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 59:40 ... desegreg- I mean, I've seen some stuff too.

Joe Rogan 59:42 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 59:42 And I'm not justifying-

Saagar Enjeti 59:43 And I think-

Krystal Ball 59:43 ... anything, but I've also seen some unconscionable tactics from the police.

Joe Rogan 59:48 100%.

Krystal Ball 59:49 And there's no focus any time on that. I've seen the police inciting and creating-

Joe Rogan 59:54 Yes.

Krystal Ball 59:54 ... the dangerous situation. Do I have any confidence that given what we saw on TV with the military police coming in and tear gassing and rubber bullets, p- peaceful populations, that this is going to, they're gonna go, come in as peacekeepers in these cit- cities? Absolutely not. If you bring the military in, you are starting a war. You're not ending violence, you're escalating violence. And that's the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Well, let me ask you this.

Krystal Ball 1:00:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 How do you stop the looters?

Saagar Enjeti 1:00:19 Yeah. Perfect question.

Krystal Ball 1:00:20 Well, I think local law enforcement. I mean...

Saagar Enjeti 1:00:22 But they're not doing it, but that's the question.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 But what are they doing if they're not doing it?

Krystal Ball 1:00:24 If the cities, if the cities aren't up to it, fine, they can call in the National Guard. But-

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Well, that's the military police then. You're, you're...

Krystal Ball 1:00:29 For the, for the, for the president to bring in the American military into cities across the country without local consent, I think is insane. And I think, look-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 But he's only saying that if they don't use the National Guard.

Saagar Enjeti 1:00:39 Right.

Krystal Ball 1:00:39 Think about the context of if you saw this happening in another country, right? It's e- it's hard to, like, look at our own country through, you know, neutral lens. If you looked at a foreign country and you heard that their president was bringing in the military to quash protesters, would you be like, "Oh, this is gonna go great." No. Usually what happens next...

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 But hold on, stop. Hold, hold on. Hold on. He's not bringing in the military to squash protesters. He's bringing in the military to stop rioters and looters.

Krystal Ball 1:01:01 How can, but how can you, how can you say that?

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 There's a difference.

Krystal Ball 1:01:03 But how can you say that when we see-

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Because you, you actually stop-

Krystal Ball 1:01:06 ... military police on TV-

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 But you s-

Krystal Ball 1:01:08 ... shooting rub- rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protesters?

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Okay, but, uh, we're n- we're not supporting that, right? We're talking about what's going on in New York City. You stop people from breaking into law-abiding people's stores.

Krystal Ball 1:01:17 Yes, do that. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 But that's, but that's what we're saying. So we're in agreement.

Krystal Ball 1:01:20 Absolutely, but the, the military police aren't-

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 But we're in agreement then-

Krystal Ball 1:01:22 But the military-

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 ... even if using the National Guard.

Krystal Ball 1:01:23 ... isn't trained to do that. That isn't what the-

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:25 No, but they are, they are trained to do that.

Krystal Ball 1:01:25 That's why we don't have the military do local law enforcement. I mean, one of the big problems of local law enforcement has actually been the militarization which occurred after 9/11, which occurred under Barack Obama as well. When you roll tanks into American streets and you treat the citizens like this is a war, you escalate the violence. So my point is, if you are opposed to the violence, sending in the military is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 Okay, but then what's, but you...

Krystal Ball 1:01:51 Yes, people should, people should have their property protected.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 But you're, you're not saying what the right thing to do is.

Krystal Ball 1:01:56 Better policing. That's the right sh-

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:58 But see, that's not gonna meet-

Krystal Ball 1:01:59 Tha- th- that's the right thing.

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:00 In the immediate term.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 But that's, but the police are going to have to-

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 ... do the same thing that the National Guard would do, arrest people for smashing windows and breaking into buildings. They just might not have the resources to handle something on the scale that you're seeing in Manhattan.

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:12 See, I think this is where, this is, this is the issue, which is that...... when people like you and I, who are against police violence, who are against and acknowledge this action, we have a solution. These people should be fired and there should be inquiries on that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:23 But there's no solution that I hear from the left on how do you stop rioting and looting when the governor of the state of New York refuses to act by-

Krystal Ball 1:02:30 I'll give you, I'll give you a solution.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Okay.

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:31 But there's-

Krystal Ball 1:02:32 Do you-

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:32 ... I mean, in the immediate term, there is no solution being offered-

Krystal Ball 1:02:34 But y- there is a solution. Let me-

Saagar Enjeti 1:02:34 ... how to stop looting.

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Wanna hear it.

Krystal Ball 1:02:35 You can de- you can deescalate the situation. All that Trump is doing right now by calling for the military and create- creating- turning this into a war zone-

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 1:02:44 ... is escalating the violence and radicalizing people. That-

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 How do you deescalate it?

Krystal Ball 1:02:47 So for example, and I know this sounds hokey, but this is true. If he had come out last night and instead of having military police, shooting tear gas and rubber bullets and flash bang grenades and crushing these protestors, if he had come out with that same cast of characters, Bill Barr and whoever else was with him, and taken a knee for eight minutes and 45 seconds, the amount of time that, you know, George Floyd had that knee on his neck until he died-

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 He's got arthritis. He can't do that.

Krystal Ball 1:03:13 And then, if he had instead of saying, "I'm gonna send the military in and crush these protestors," and by the way, he's deeming them terrorists, right? Our fellow citizens, he's saying, "These are terrorists." If he had instead offered actual like, no one's gonna solve this problem overnight, but you can offer a few pieces of legislation or at least an olive branch. Then you start to deescalate rather than radicalizing, rather than, rather than going the police state, military state way, which never ends well. I mean, give me an example Overst- when does this ever end well?

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 Okay. Well, we've never- Hold on. We've never had this before. We've never had people smashing windows all down Manhattan. You look at Fifth Avenue is insane right now.

Krystal Ball 1:03:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 It looks like a bomb went off and shattered every window within five, six blocks.

Saagar Enjeti 1:03:57 And I, I go back to our history, Joe, 'cause we have done this before, MLK and DC called in 13,000 troops in order to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Right. But it's never been national.

Krystal Ball 1:04:04 But that, and-

Saagar Enjeti 1:04:05 Oh, no, no, of