Joe Rogan Experience #1487 - Janet Zuccarini & Evan Funke

1. 0:01 – 1:55

   Riots, looting, and the “perfect storm” hitting restaurants

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Da-da-da and we're rolling. Janet, Evan, what's up?

   2. JZJanet Zuccarini0:05

      Joe.

   3. EFEvan Funke0:05

      Hey.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      How are you guys? Good to see you.

   5. EFEvan Funke0:07

      Nice to see you.

   6. JZJanet Zuccarini0:07

      Good to see you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Strange times.

   8. JZJanet Zuccarini0:10

      The weirdest times ever.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Yes.

   10. EFEvan Funke0:11

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:11

       But Felix is still intact. The restaurant's there.

   12. EFEvan Funke0:15

       We're still here.

   13. JZJanet Zuccarini0:15

       We will survive.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:15

       Yeah. We were talking about restaurants that have been just destroyed-

   15. EFEvan Funke0:19

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       ... over the rioting and the looting and the chaos. And you guys, you got lucky. You dodged a bullet.

   17. EFEvan Funke0:25

       We did.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Very happy to hear that.

   19. JZJanet Zuccarini0:26

       Well, I think Abbot Kinney got a bit of warning and all of Abbot Kinney boarded up and so we boarded up and the National Guard is still there today.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       (laughs) What the fuck? (laughs) So strange.

   21. EFEvan Funke0:37

       It's so wild.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       It does, it doesn't make any sense. Like if you told me that something happened in LA and people were rioting, I'd be like, "Well, if it happened in LA, it kind of makes sense that people are upset." And then you said, "But they're smashing businesses and, and, and destroying restaurants and destroying small stores and family-owned businesses." I'd be like, "Well, wait, why? Why are they doing that?" Like there's no rhyme or reason to this.

   23. EFEvan Funke0:57

       It doesn't make any sense.

   24. JZJanet Zuccarini0:59

       Well-

   25. EFEvan Funke0:59

       I, I understand-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       Yeah.

   27. EFEvan Funke1:01

       ... why people are pissed.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       Put that fucker up there. Evan, come on. We're just talking about it.

   29. JZJanet Zuccarini1:04

       Evan.

   30. EFEvan Funke1:04

       How's my level?
2. 1:55 – 3:38

   Reopening whiplash: staffing, fear, and conflicting regulations

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:55

      A disease we thought was gonna kill everybody and then so everybody shuts down. Then it turns out it doesn't really kill nearly as many people as we thought, but we still have to be shut down. And then like, "When do we get to go back to work?" And then all of a sudden, "Hey, you guys can open up." Like you guys got no warning.

   2. EFEvan Funke2:09

      No warning.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:10

      No warning. I mean, I called Janet up when it happened and I was like, "What? You just, you get to open? Like, but it takes 10 days to get staff ready." That's what you said, right?

   4. JZJanet Zuccarini2:19

      Yeah, I just had a friend, uh, send me a text message, "Hey, so you, are you open? I hear you can be open now." And I mean, it was just dropped in the news before, you know, any, we could have any time to prepare. And you know, we don't have the staffing. You need, you need, we need at least 10 days to be able to open our doors.

   5. EFEvan Funke2:34

      That, I mean, that's really our biggest challenge is, is getting our staff back into the restaurant and feeling comfortable in the restaurant with all these new regulations. And you have state regulations, you have LA County regulations, you have City of Los Angeles regulations, and each one of the documents are like novel length. So I'm sitting there at home reading all three, cross-referencing, and we basically have to abide by the most stringent rules. So I'm like picking apart each one, okay, trying to decipher what we can actually do and then on top of that, we're trying to get people out of their houses because they're scared shitless to come back.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:13

      Are they though?

   7. EFEvan Funke3:13

      Because the wild card, well, the wild card is the clientele coming in.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      I think people are gonna come back in droves. I think if you were open full capacity, you'd be fucking sold out instantly. I really don't think there's any issue at all. I think there's so much fear mongering going on, but I think the re- the, the, the actual attitude of people, way more people are interested in going out than are interested in, in being-

   9. EFEvan Funke3:36

      I agree with you. 100%.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       ... locked up for longer.

3. 3:38 – 5:55

   Razor-thin margins vs. capacity limits: can a restaurant survive at 60%?

   1. JZJanet Zuccarini3:38

      Well, I think it's like different, um, you know, groups of people. So you have young people who want to go out and they don't care and they'll, you know, seat, be seated at full capacity, but, um, if you have any kind of health risks or you're older, you're not gonna feel safe to go out. And, you know, the restaurant business, when you're even allowed to be seated at 100% is a really, really difficult business. And I think the pandemic really showed the inherent weakness of this industry that we run on razor-thin profit margins. Now we're allowed to be seated at 60%. So do we pay 60% rent then at that point?

   2. EFEvan Funke4:14

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:14

      Right.

   4. EFEvan Funke4:14

      Our co- costs don't go down, you know, 40%.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:18

      Right.

   6. EFEvan Funke4:18

      We're still paying 100% of our costs, 100% of our labor, 100% of our rent. You know, the cost of food doesn't go down.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:25

      Right.

   8. EFEvan Funke4:25

      So we're forced to become extremely creative. And there's one thing that I know about the restaurant industry, we're, we're highly adaptable. You know, we have to kind of play within this game where we have to be unwavering on all of our standards and then be completely adaptable minute to minute from everyone's demands. And everybody literally expects perfection.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      There's also this extreme lack of communication as to like what, what the timeline they're looking at and what, what will be the standards for you to be open 100%. It's the same thing with the Comedy Store. The Comedy Store has no idea when they're gonna be able to be open because restaurants are open and they're saying, "Well, aren't we kind of like a restaurant? We serve food." And they're like, "Yeah, but no one goes to you specifically for food. Even though they're sitting down, you can't be open."

   10. EFEvan Funke5:11

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:11

       And they're like, "But it's not a nightclub, meaning like a bar where everybody just mingles. There's seats. Like, isn't that okay?" And they're like, "No, we don't think so. We don't know." (laughs) But come on.

   12. JZJanet Zuccarini5:19

       Well, but nobody knows, but nobody knows anything, you know, that's what-

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:23

       Right. Yeah.

   14. JZJanet Zuccarini5:23

       ... we have a complete lack of trust-

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       Yeah.

   16. JZJanet Zuccarini5:25

       ... um, you know, in everything, in, you know, politics and how the pandemic has been handled and also handling the businesses mandating, you know, overnight that we close our doors and go to zero revenue-

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:36

       Yeah.

   18. JZJanet Zuccarini5:36

       ... but there's no mandates on how we operate with zero revenue.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       Right.

   20. JZJanet Zuccarini5:40

       You know, moving forward, how do we, what do we say to our landlords who deserve to be paid? Uh, so but nobody knows anything. And right now with opening, you know, the health department, the, it's a 17-page document on how you are supposed to open in a safe way.

4. 5:55 – 9:26

   17 pages of safety rules: masks, shields, and ambiguous enforcement

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:55

      What did they tell you have to do?

   2. EFEvan Funke5:56

      Oh man.

   3. JZJanet Zuccarini5:57

      Well, 17 pages. Do you want-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      (laughs)

   5. JZJanet Zuccarini5:59

      Page one-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      Let's start at page one.

   7. EFEvan Funke6:00

      It's, I mean-

   8. JZJanet Zuccarini6:01

      We'll start at page one-

   9. EFEvan Funke6:02

      ... at the very basis of it, you know, there's, there's gotta be an employee log. We have to take the ti- the temperature of all of our employees when they actually enter the premises. So we have to have a log on that. Anyone who has direct contact with, uh, customers have to wear a face mask and a face shield.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       A shield?

   11. EFEvan Funke6:20

       100%.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:21

       Oh.

   13. EFEvan Funke6:21

       And then on the client side, you have to wear a mask when you're not eating.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:27

       Why the-

   15. EFEvan Funke6:27

       So that means if you get up to go to the bathroom in the restaurant, you have to put your mask on-

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       Oh, God.

   17. EFEvan Funke6:32

       ... and then take it off when you get back to the table.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:34

       That's so dumb. It doesn't make any sense.

   19. EFEvan Funke6:36

       It-

   20. JZJanet Zuccarini6:37

       It doesn't make any sense.

   21. EFEvan Funke6:37

       A l- and a lot of it is, like, completely ambiguous.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Well, why would you have to wear a face mask if you already have a shield over your face? Right?

   23. JZJanet Zuccarini6:49

       Well, I think there's-

   24. EFEvan Funke6:50

       (laughs)

   25. JZJanet Zuccarini6:50

       ... there's been some reports that you-

   26. EFEvan Funke6:51

       I have so many questions.

   27. JZJanet Zuccarini6:52

       ... y- you can get it through your eyes.

   28. EFEvan Funke6:53

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       But you were... There's been reports that you get from touching things and now they say you can't.

   30. JZJanet Zuccarini6:57

       I know, but they, they're just t- you know, they're saying everything, they're saying anything.
5. 9:26 – 12:23

   Why Felix’s pasta feels like magic: craft, tradition, and al dente ‘toothsome’ texture

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:26

      Well, let's talk nice things. Let's talk-

   2. JZJanet Zuccarini9:27

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:27

      Let's talk about, uh, the... What you guys have put together is pretty remarkable, 'cause-

   4. EFEvan Funke9:32

      Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:33

      ... the food there is so good. It's kind, it's kind of ridiculous. Like, your pasta's got voodoo in it. I don't know what you're doing.

   6. EFEvan Funke9:39

      It is voodoo.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:40

      And I, I guess it's because it's handmade, right? Because, uh, one... The first time my wife and I ate there, we sat right next to that open area where you can watch-

   8. EFEvan Funke9:48

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:49

      ... you guys make the pasta.

   10. EFEvan Funke9:51

       The lavu.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:51

       And it's, uh, such a painstaking process. And you, you realize, you really truly appreciate that it's an art form, you know? That, like, making stuff like that, like cutting no corners and making it as good as it could possibly taste.

   12. EFEvan Funke10:04

       Well, that... I mean, that's the ultimate goal, is to create that connection between pasta maker and someone who's eating the pasta. Like, if you look through the glass and you see a pastaio or pastaia in there banging out-

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:17

       What, what's the difference? A pastaio? Is this-

   14. EFEvan Funke10:18

       Pastaio is male, pastaia is-

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:19

       Gender-neutral?

   16. JZJanet Zuccarini10:20

       Yeah.

   17. EFEvan Funke10:20

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:21

       (laughs)

   19. EFEvan Funke10:22

       So, you know, they're banging out trofie, which is like a coil from Liguria. And you look down at your plate and there's like 160 to 180 pieces on your plate, you're like, "Fuck, this guy's rep-ing-"

   20. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       This, is this from your... Or is-

   21. EFEvan Funke10:33

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       He's got pictures over here.

   23. EFEvan Funke10:34

       "This guy's doing 180 reps just for me."

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       Mm.

   25. EFEvan Funke10:38

       That's a connection. And once you get it... Sometimes a bowl of pasta is a bowl of pasta. I get it. But this is something different. It, this is, this is craft, this is tradition, this is continuing this conversation of... that's been passed down from generation to generation. Uh, and all I'm doing, all we're doing a- at Felix is just a small spoke in a, in a, in a massive wheel of, of Italian culinary tradition.

   26. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       Well, you know just exactly how long to cook it too, which is amazing. Like, the, the, the bite-

   27. EFEvan Funke11:09

       Because I'm fucking maniacal, Joe.

   28. JRJoe Rogan11:10

       I get it, man.

   29. EFEvan Funke11:11

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan11:11

       You must be 'cause the, just the way your teeth sink into it, it's like everything is amazing.
6. 12:23 – 18:08

   How Felix was born: Janet’s Abbot Kinney dream and finding Evan at the last minute

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:23

      Wow. Now, you guys have been open for what? Two years?

   2. EFEvan Funke12:26

      Three years.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:27

      Three years?

   4. EFEvan Funke12:27

      In April, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:28

      How much prep time is there before you open? Like, when you have a plan... And, and Janet you've opened up, how many restaurants? You have a ton.

   6. JZJanet Zuccarini12:36

      Nine restaurants-

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:37

      Yeah.

   8. JZJanet Zuccarini12:37

      ... and four under construction. Great time to be under construction-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:40

      (laughs)

   10. JZJanet Zuccarini12:40

       ... in the restaurant business.

   11. EFEvan Funke12:41

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:42

       So crazy. Um-

   13. JZJanet Zuccarini12:43

       My life sucks.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:44

       (laughs)

   15. JZJanet Zuccarini12:44

       Hashtag.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       It could be a lot worse.

   17. JZJanet Zuccarini12:46

       No, it... yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:47

       When-

   19. JZJanet Zuccarini12:47

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       (laughs) When you are about to open up a place like Felix, then how, how do you... how do you get started? Did you know Evan in advance? Did you guys talk before? Like, how do you, how do you put together a restaurant like that?

   21. JZJanet Zuccarini13:00

       Well, each restaurant that I've opened, um, d- definitely has a different story. So I have a few Italian restaurants, I have Thai restaurants, I have a Jamaican restaurant in Toronto. So, you know, all very different stories. But, uh, wanted to, um, basically expand outside of Toronto. And I came to LA for lifestyle reasons, to get out of the, uh, Toronto winters. And decided, you know, this will be my first place that I open a restaurant outside of, uh, Toronto. And I had a dream on, of being on Abbot Kinney. I just love Abbot Kinney. Um, it feels like one of the only streets in Los Angeles where it's, um, you know, like a neighborhood and a street that you can walk down. So, lucki- lucki- luckily I, you know, found this location on Abbot Kinney. And it's a long story, but I was working with another chef for about nine months. And then, at the eleventh hour I had the location, we were all set to begin construction, and he just said, "I'm gonna... I've decided to go work with another restaurant group." And I was like, overnight, just like left without a chef. And I only had one other name of another chef in LA, and it was Evan Funke. And, um, a food writer just sent me an email. Because I was just out meeting people saying, "Hey, I'm looking for a chef that has a following, a super talented chef." And this one, um, Kevin West, shout out to Kevin West, sent me an email and said, "Evan Funke is an amazingly talented chef and he's available." And so when this other chef bailed on me and I was, um, on vacation at that time. I was in Morocco, of all places. And, uh, I go- you know, I asked to, for a week off to not... to go off the grid for a week. And then, uh, the president of my company contacted me. He said, "You got to get on the phone. We don't have a chef."

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:39

       (laughs) oh.

   23. JZJanet Zuccarini14:39

       And, uh ... And so I go, "I have one name in my Rolodex (laughs) , it's Evan Funke." And I sent Evan ... Uh, I felt that I had to send him a compelling, uh, email so that I could get his attention because I had no other, um, you know, options. And I said, you know, "Evan, I hear. You know, Kevin West says you're an amazingly talented chef. I have a location on Abbot Kinney," which is great. Like, you know, chefs love, um, Abbot Kinney. You know, it's a gr- it's a great street.

   24. EFEvan Funke15:04

       It's big leagues.

   25. JZJanet Zuccarini15:05

       And, um, I said, you know, "Time is of the essence. If you're interested, you know, here's... you know, check me out. I'm, I'm legitimate, a restaurateur. Check me out." And, um, you know, we were on a FaceTime call that dropped 1,000 times-

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:18

       (laughs) .

   27. JZJanet Zuccarini15:18

       ... because of the bad reception.

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:20

       Yeah.

   29. JZJanet Zuccarini15:20

       I'm like, "Bear with me." Get back on a FaceTime call with Evan. And I flew Evan to Toronto.

   30. EFEvan Funke15:25

       I think it was Skype, actually.
7. 18:08 – 22:26

   Flour, wheat, and ‘baker’s lung’: the hidden hazards of pasta-making

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:08

      Is there a specific type of flour that you use?

   2. EFEvan Funke18:11

      Uh, we import six different types from four different regions.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:15

      And now, is the... the word about pasta and about...... bread and wheat in general is that American wheat is a different kind of wheat. It's-

   4. EFEvan Funke18:24

      It's a different kind of wheat. It's also processed completely different. I don't, I don't use a lot of American wheat just because it's, it's just been manipulated so much and a lot of the, the digestibility of h- uh, in my opinion , people are gonna freak out, but in my opinion, the amount of work that goes into denaturing pasta in order to get it flat via machine has a lot to do with its digestibility.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. EFEvan Funke18:52

      Just like sourdough bread is more digestible because it's broken down in a different way. But handmade pasta is less manipulated than machine-made pasta-

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:01

      Mm-hmm.

   8. EFEvan Funke19:02

      ... in my opinion. So, um, also the, the types of wheat, the amount of wheat germ that's in it, the nutritional value, it all has to do, uh, with those elements within the, in the flour. And to be honest, like, I've developed a, uh, a gluten intolerance because I've been breathing raw flour for the past, you know, 12 years.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:23

      Oh, really?

   10. EFEvan Funke19:24

       So as soon as I step in- set foot in the lab and I start rolling a sfoglio, my stomach just start... It's acid, straight up.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       That's crazy. Just from the powder?

   12. EFEvan Funke19:33

       Because I've been breathing raw. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:34

       Wow.

   14. EFEvan Funke19:35

       'Cause it's like talcum, you know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       Mm-hmm.

   16. EFEvan Funke19:36

       Double-zero flour's extremely fine, so we have to throw it in order to, you know, put some on the table to roll it out, so you breathe it in all day long.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:44

       So you've developed-

   18. EFEvan Funke19:44

       And we've got extractors, we've got, you know, humidity control and air conditioning and all that, but still.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:50

       But, so you've developed an intolerance because of that?

   20. EFEvan Funke19:52

       Yeah, it's called whe- it's called white lung or baker's lung.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:55

       Baker's lung?

   22. EFEvan Funke19:56

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:56

       So do you wear a mask?

   24. EFEvan Funke19:57

       Uh, I do not.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       Why don't you wear a mask?

   26. EFEvan Funke20:00

       Um, I don't know. It's not good for me. (laughs) I don't like it.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       (laughs) Like, when I-

   28. EFEvan Funke20:03

       I don't know. I, uh, you know-

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       Seems like that would be a good thing to do.

   30. EFEvan Funke20:07

       Sure, but-
8. 22:26 – 24:38

   Apprenticeships and mastery: Italy training, consistency, and ‘gateway drug’ pasta

   1. EFEvan Funke22:26

      Even fewer. And when I started, I started doing this 11 years ago, there was nobody. There was nobody. I checked. You know, I moved to Bologna in 2007, tail end of 2007, and started this journey with, uh, my maestro, Alessandra Spisi of the Scuola Bolognese, and she kind of opened up the door for me to start seeking out other pasta makers throughout Italy. And when I came back in '08, I ran a restaurant called Rustic Canyon for about four years and, you know, not a lot of people were serving the style of pasta that I wanted to serve. So I started giving it away like a gateway drug.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:05

      (laughs)

   3. EFEvan Funke23:05

      (laughs) I would just, like, send it to tables for free, and they were like, "What the fuck?" And it just started gaining momentum and gaining momentum.

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:11

      Wow, so, so when you moved to Italy to, to learn how to do... Like, what kind- what is an apprenticeship like in, you know, learning how to make pasta?

   5. EFEvan Funke23:21

      (sighs) I mean, it's an apprenticeship. You have to put yourself in the, in the student's chair, and, and be a sponge. I didn't speak any- not a lick of Italian, um, but the Italians are very expressive, so you're able to communicate through just being Italian, I guess. And, uh, I spent three months, you know, six days a week, 10 hours a day, just making pasta, period.

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:43

      Wow.

   7. EFEvan Funke23:45

      Period.

   8. JRJoe Rogan23:46

      See, this is what's fascinating to me, things you just, you know, you just take for granted. Oh, here is a plate of pasta. Like, but what, what is involved in learning how to make it that good?

   9. EFEvan Funke23:57

      It's not just ingredients. When people sit down at a, at a restaurant, people aren't just paying for, for the experience of sitting there and the cost of food. They're, they're paying for the experience of the people that are making the food.

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       Hm.

   11. EFEvan Funke24:11

       That's a big part of it. That's the way that I look at it. And 11 years of making pasta by hand, there's a lot of depth that some of the younger guys just aren't willing to pay the time cost.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:26

       Mm.

   13. EFEvan Funke24:27

       And a lot of the younger cooks out there, they bounce around from job to job, six months here, three months here, and they think that they've mastered it. But there's just no depth. There's no depth.

9. 24:38 – 27:44

   The pasta lab business gamble: sacrificing seats for spectacle and craft

   1. JZJanet Zuccarini24:38

      You know, you have to also consider how labor-intensive it is to, you know, hand roll out the pasta. And you know, what Evan was saying before, like each one rolled by hand. You know, when you- when you eat a bowl of pasta, you're not thinking that each one was, like, pressed out by hand. So it's, like, extremely labor-intensive and a lot of people, when we were opening, um... Evan did have his own restaurant, Bucato, before, which was also, um, uh, basically it focused around pasta as well. That's a whole other story.

   2. EFEvan Funke25:05

      (laughs)

   3. JZJanet Zuccarini25:06

      Um, but when we were going to open up this restaurant and we put in the middle of the restaurant the temperature-controlled pasta lab, which is taking up tables. So if you're a businessperson, a restaurateur, you say, "How many tables could fit in there? How much is each table worth to your- your bottom line?" You're using up that space-

   4. EFEvan Funke25:22

      Wow.

   5. JZJanet Zuccarini25:22

      ... to put in-

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:24

      Yeah, it is.

   7. JZJanet Zuccarini25:24

      You're using that space to put in a pasta lab? Are you crazy? Um, also, you know, when you're thinking about, you know, training the people and how labor-intensive it is, people were saying, like, we're- we're crazy doing- doing this again, but-

   8. EFEvan Funke25:36

      Yeah, they didn't think we could make money.

   9. JZJanet Zuccarini25:38

      Yep.

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:39

       Well, it is a lot of space.

   11. EFEvan Funke25:40

       It's lots.

   12. JZJanet Zuccarini25:40

       That pasta lab is a big space, but it's so cool to be sitting right there and-

   13. EFEvan Funke25:45

       It's a showstopper.

   14. JZJanet Zuccarini25:46

       Yeah. It really... It's- it's something special.

   15. EFEvan Funke25:49

       And the other thing-

   16. JZJanet Zuccarini25:49

       And it's worked out. We're making money.

   17. EFEvan Funke25:50

       (laughs)

   18. JZJanet Zuccarini25:50

       I mean, we were making money.

   19. EFEvan Funke25:53

       We were. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:53

       (laughs)

   21. JZJanet Zuccarini25:53

       There's always, like, pre-COVID and, you know, now.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:55

       And there's no thought... uh, there's no guidelines in- in terms of, like, when you'll be able to operate at 100% capacity?

   23. EFEvan Funke26:02

       No. I mean, in the documents it say... it says they're going to reassess in 21 days. So I don't know when that's gonna be, in a- in a couple weeks?

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:12

       Oh, they might- it might even be quicker than that, right? The- I think-

   25. EFEvan Funke26:14

       Might be.

   26. JRJoe Rogan26:14

       ... the economic pressures are probably what forced them to open without letting anybody know what's-

   27. EFEvan Funke26:19

       They're out of money.

   28. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       Everyone's out of money at this point.

   29. JZJanet Zuccarini26:21

       Well, without their fund.

   30. EFEvan Funke26:21

       Everyone's scared out of money.
10. 27:44 – 35:50

    Industry reality check: closures, broken economics, and why restaurants need help

    1. JZJanet Zuccarini27:44

       Yeah, I think, I think the- the goal has always been when this first started, uh, was, you know, your- your goal is to s- to survive-

    2. EFEvan Funke27:52

       Yeah.

    3. JZJanet Zuccarini27:52

       ... and to get to the other side of this. You're not- you're not thinking about making money. And when you see these, like, iconic, legendary restaurateurs like Daniel Humm, with Eleven Madison Park, which last year was the number one restaurant in the world, and he does not think that he will be reopening. So he might be closing permanently. Or David Chang closing two restaurants, one in New York City, one in DC, and then he's moving another restaurant, consolidating his company essentially. And when you... So when you see these iconic restaurateurs that are struggling to make it to the other side, it's, like, extremely sobering.

    4. JRJoe Rogan28:25

       Yeah.

    5. JZJanet Zuccarini28:25

       And, you know, some- some experts will say they think 50% of restaurants will not make it to the other side. I don't agree, but I think 25% won't make it. And even in LA, one of my last dinners was at, um, Bon Temps in downtown LA Lincoln Carson.

    6. JRJoe Rogan28:41

       Yeah.

    7. JZJanet Zuccarini28:41

       An amazing chef. I was blown away by the restaurant. And he's closed permanently. Like, all that time to open, all that capital to open. You know, you train whatever you're training, 50, 75 people to open and he's closed permanently. Or Auburn, another restaurant that was getting, you know, great accolades, uh, closed also permanently. They just got, um, finalist in the Global Design Awards. So they're getting these awards, um, and they're closed permanently. A- and you know, so, uh, you know, it's really survival of the fittest right now. So new restaurants, because it's so hard this business, you're very vulnerable when you're a new restaurant and you just have debt. You're just looking at a bunch of debt. And then you're closed permanently, you know, you're gonna... you're not gonna make it to the other side. And if a business was not making that much money, so when you see a restaurant in New York City, like Lucky Strike, that's been there for 31 years close permanently because, you know, it just wasn't doing that well. So all the businesses that were just kind of teetering or not doing very well, they're gonna close. It's s- it's survival of the fittest, even with-

    8. JRJoe Rogan29:43

       Yeah.

    9. JZJanet Zuccarini29:43

       ... the pandemic and hitting older people. It's kind of, like, all around in business, um, it's- it's survival of the fittest.

    10. EFEvan Funke29:50

        Mm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan29:51

        It seems like it's- it's so hard to believe that if you don't make money for three months, it goes under. You would think, like, "Oh, this is a successful business." Like, it's exposed people to the realities of running a business and how incredibly difficult it is just- just to stay open.

    12. EFEvan Funke30:05

        It's a juggling act.

    13. JRJoe Rogan30:06

        Especially for restaurants, right?

    14. EFEvan Funke30:08

        Especially.

    15. JZJanet Zuccarini30:08

        No, th- this is what, um, what I was saying before is the pandemic really exposed the restaurant business. And the restaurant business probably has been hit the hardest, and then next all small businesses and retail. And then we're gonna see commercial real estate really be affected right now. But the restaurant business, the national average of the profit margin is 4%.

    16. EFEvan Funke30:27

        Mm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan30:28

        (laughs)

    18. JZJanet Zuccarini30:28

        That's the national average. We don't- we don't operate that way. Uh, we- we operate, um-... we, we operate at 14% essentially. Uh, but, uh, 20 years ago in the US, most restaurants would make 20, 25%, um, you know, the net profit margin, but it's gone down, it's gone down and really, uh, the business is broken. The, the restaurant business is broken, and we should be charging a lot higher prices, but then you're not going to get the customers. So what you do is you just accept a lower and a lower profit margin. That's why this business is so difficult. And even 10 years ago, you might have a runway in your bank account to survive a few months, but most restaurants, you know, withou- they have a month and then they're done. They've got nothing in the bank account.

    19. JRJoe Rogan31:13

        (sighs)

    20. JZJanet Zuccarini31:14

        It's a horrible business. Nobody should be-

    21. JRJoe Rogan31:16

        (laughs)

    22. JZJanet Zuccarini31:16

        ... in the restaurant buil- unless you're crazy and you're so passionate about it.

    23. JRJoe Rogan31:20

        That's you.

    24. JZJanet Zuccarini31:21

        That's me.

    25. EFEvan Funke31:22

        That's both of us.

    26. JZJanet Zuccarini31:22

        But, uh, but I will, a-

    27. EFEvan Funke31:23

        That's all of us.

    28. JZJanet Zuccarini31:24

        But it-

    29. EFEvan Funke31:24

        11 million of us.

    30. JRJoe Rogan31:25

        Yeah.
11. 35:50 – 40:37

    Janet’s origin story and the pandemic gut-punch: debt, construction, and 700 furloughs

    1. JRJoe Rogan35:50

       So, Janet, we were talking on the phone about what it's like for you to have all these restaurants under construction and you were this unstoppable machine. You were a restaurant machine. Everything was kicking ass.

    2. JZJanet Zuccarini36:00

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan36:00

       And then all of a sudden, eh!

    4. JZJanet Zuccarini36:02

       Yeah. Well, um, you know, the only thing I've ever done is been in the restaurant business and out of university. I came from Italy and I opened my first restaurant in Toronto and slowly got-

    5. JRJoe Rogan36:12

       Right out of school?

    6. JZJanet Zuccarini36:13

       Well, I was older. I, uh ... I took my time in school, too.

    7. JRJoe Rogan36:16

       (laughs)

    8. JZJanet Zuccarini36:16

       I started when I was ... I started university when I was 22. So I took my time. But, um, when I opened my first restaurant, I definitely connected to a passion and I had this slow route of growing this company so that restaurant opened 24 years ago and is still running, uh, you know, still running today.

    9. JRJoe Rogan36:37

       That's incredible.... what are the odds of that? Like- That's a-

    10. JZJanet Zuccarini36:39

        Well, the average, um, you know, after you pass, a year, you know, you have a lifespan, most restaurants, of seven years.

    11. JRJoe Rogan36:46

        Yeah.

    12. JZJanet Zuccarini36:46

        So I've had a few lifetimes at that restaurant. And then I slowly saved my money and wanted to buy the real estate where that, where that restaurant is. It's in Yorkville. Do you know Toronto? You know Toronto. Do you know Yorkville?

    13. JRJoe Rogan36:58

        No, I don't.

    14. JZJanet Zuccarini37:00

        It's a nice little neighborhood in Toronto and I wanted to buy this real estate, so I saved my money to buy the real estate. So I was, I was very, um, cautious, uh, growing the company and building a foundation. And then, uh, I bought one piece of real estate, then I bought another building, and then I put, uh, another restaurant twice as big as my first restaurant. And then I bought another building. So I've been buying these buildings and putting restaurants inside the buildings until I felt that my foundation was so strong that nothing could happen to me. So I could only put through the lens back then in the, you know, before the pandemic, to say, "In an economic upturn, people will eat pizza. On an economic downturn, people will eat pizza." I'm untouchable. That's how I felt. I felt nothing could touch me. And then we opened up Felix, and Felix has gotten, you know, incredible accolades, you know, in the press, and rightfully so. And Evan's cooking is off the charts. And, um, uh, I thought, you know, "L- we're ready to really grow, so let's, let's do this." And I built, uh, a company where, you know, I have a head office, it's a proper company, and, uh, I have an incredible team of people. And I felt very ready and very stable, and with an incredible- incredibly, um, strong foundation that I said, "We're ready to do this." And so 2020 was my big year to open five restaurants in one year.

    15. JRJoe Rogan38:19

        Wow.

    16. JZJanet Zuccarini38:20

        So I just... uh, I, I just, uh... Just before the pandemic, flew to Toronto to open, um, a 9,000 square foot restaurant to immediately close it, and that cost $9 million to open this 9,000 square foot restaurant that opened one day, trained 100 people for two months, and then immediately shut that down.

    17. JRJoe Rogan38:40

        (laughs)

    18. JZJanet Zuccarini38:40

        Shut down all restaurants, so shut down eight operations. And I also have a catering company, so shut down eight, eight operations in Toronto and a catering company, furloughed 700 people, and then I have four other projects under construction. And personally, all of the money in the company out on construction sites.

    19. JRJoe Rogan39:01

        Oof.

    20. JZJanet Zuccarini39:01

        Plus, I personally loaned all of my money-

    21. JRJoe Rogan39:04

        (sighs)

    22. JZJanet Zuccarini39:04

        ... to build the restaurants because that's what, that's what I do.

    23. JRJoe Rogan39:06

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JZJanet Zuccarini39:06

        What I do is, I, I buy, I buy buildings and then I get mortgages on the buildings, then I use all the cash that I have anywhere that I c- that I can find it to open restaurants. So I might have a temporary, you know, uh, lack of cash, but then, you know, backed by very strong revenue. So I'm, uh, funding all the construction sites by all these restaurants that have extremely strong, um, streams of revenue. So once again, it w- I, uh, didn't feel like I was, um, taking a big risk opening five restaurants in 2020. So, uh, I swear to you that the, the day the pandemic happened and I had to shut down, it was literally the day before I loaned out... I wrote a massive check for one construction site.

    25. JRJoe Rogan39:46

        (sighs)

    26. JZJanet Zuccarini39:46

        Like, (laughs) all of my money in my bank account, you know, out to one construction site. Then we shut everything down, and it was like I was, I was kicked in the teeth. Like, I was brought to my knees.

    27. JRJoe Rogan39:57

        (sighs)

    28. JZJanet Zuccarini39:57

        And I had never felt stress like that. Because of how conservative I am and how fiscally responsible that I've always been, and feeling that I was untouchable, I just thought, um, you know, nothing could ever happen to me in this... you know, I could never risk anything. But I woke up one day when I had to close everything down. And first of all, the feeling of laying off 700 people when you know the majority of your staff live paycheck to paycheck, uh, was absolutely heartbreaking. And that I, I ran the real risk of losing everything. Not only all the restaurants, but all the buildings, because the bank, you know, owns my buildings. I don't own the buildings. And, you know, this pandemic caught me w- with my financial pants down. Like, I just wa- it was like, "Oh my God, this is really (laughs) bad timing for me."

12. 40:37 – 56:25

    Protests, second waves, and societal reform: hope amid dysfunction

    1. JRJoe Rogan40:37

       Do you think if there's a second wave they're gonna try to do this again?

    2. JZJanet Zuccarini40:41

       Shut you down?

    3. JRJoe Rogan40:43

       (sighs)

    4. JZJanet Zuccarini40:43

       No, I think we're g-... Look, the protests, do you think we're gonna have a second wave now?

    5. JRJoe Rogan40:47

       We very well could.

    6. JZJanet Zuccarini40:48

       We, w-... We are.

    7. JRJoe Rogan40:49

       It's possible. I mean, these people are not social distancing. No. They're on top of each other. If anybody's got it, everybody's got it.

    8. JZJanet Zuccarini40:53

       No. I- I don't... I actually don't think so, and I think that we have... we're gonna l- be living with this virus. And I've said this from day one. When this happened, I said to my team, "Give me the two-year plan. What's going on for two years?" We have to live with this for the next two years, and I think that w- we just have to live in a safe way. And yeah, wear the masks out and we're gonna go to restaurants and people are gonna be wearing gloves and masks and maybe take your temperature, and we're gonna sit, you know, be seated six feet apart. Um, I think this is... we're gonna just find a safe way to live. But of course there's gonna be, there's gonna be a second wave and a third wave. It's gonna keep going until, till a vac-... But also when a vaccine comes, you, you have to va- you have to inoculate, you know, between 60 and 80% of the world. How long is that gonna take?

    9. JRJoe Rogan41:34

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JZJanet Zuccarini41:34

        We're, we're living with this.

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:37

        Yeah. The, the, uh, the vaccine's a weird vaccine too. Do you, do you understand what it is? An mRNA vaccine?

    12. JZJanet Zuccarini41:42

        Well, that's one vaccine that Mo- Moderna's making-

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:45

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JZJanet Zuccarini41:45

        ... but there's, uh, different types of vaccines that they're making.

    15. JRJoe Rogan41:47

        Yeah, there's multiple trials that are going on right now, right? Yeah.

    16. JZJanet Zuccarini41:50

        100 different vaccines.

    17. JRJoe Rogan41:52

        Everybody's trying to get after it, as they should. Uh, health officials, no new COVID-19 cases from Missouri parties. (laughs)

    18. JZJanet Zuccarini42:00

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan42:00

        No additional new c-... Well, you know, um, what's interesting is what we were talking about before the podcast when you guys were getting tested for the COVID, uh, we were talking about Italy. How Italy- Yeah. ... has the, the detectable levels are so small, they're so minuscule.

    20. JZJanet Zuccarini42:14

        Infinitesimal. I just learned that word.

    21. JRJoe Rogan42:17

        Ooh, you nailed it. (laughs) Yeah, you got it. You just had a... There was a struggle earlier. (laughs)

    22. JZJanet Zuccarini42:19

        The... Yeah, I know. The, um, the viral load is infinitesimal. Well, sometimes when you read things and you don't say it out loud-

    23. JRJoe Rogan42:25

        Yeah.

    24. JZJanet Zuccarini42:25

        ... and all of a sudden you say it out loud for the first time-

    25. JRJoe Rogan42:27

        Right.

    26. JZJanet Zuccarini42:27

        ... you're like, "I don't know how to say that word."

    27. JRJoe Rogan42:28

        Yeah, there's a lot of words like that-

    28. JZJanet Zuccarini42:29

        Um-

    29. JRJoe Rogan42:29

        ... that I never use.

    30. JZJanet Zuccarini42:30

        Yeah. But, um, yeah, in San Raffaele, uh, Hospital in Milan, you know, the- they're saying that the, the virus is... no longer exists in Italy.
13. 56:25 – 1:13:09

    Hospitality psychology: difficult customers, authenticity debates, and not reading Yelp

    1. JRJoe Rogan56:25

       What do you do if someone asks for a well-done steak? Do you tell them to go fuck themselves?

    2. JZJanet Zuccarini56:28

       (laughs)

    3. EFEvan Funke56:30

       (laughs)

    4. JZJanet Zuccarini56:30

       (laughs)

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:30

       Probably should, huh?

    6. EFEvan Funke56:31

       Uh, no, listen-

    7. JRJoe Rogan56:32

       (laughs)

    8. EFEvan Funke56:32

       ... I, I ... If that's what they want out of the experience, so-

    9. JRJoe Rogan56:34

       (laughs)

    10. EFEvan Funke56:34

        Listen, sometimes people just wanna yell at you, and that's what they want out of the experience at the restaurant, so you gotta give it to them. That's part of hospitality. You gotta take it.

    11. JRJoe Rogan56:41

        They want to y- They want to complain, do you think?

    12. EFEvan Funke56:42

        They want ... Some people are just incorrigible.

    13. JRJoe Rogan56:45

        That's part of it. Yeah.

    14. EFEvan Funke56:46

        And you just have to say, "I hear you. Thank you so much for your feedback."

    15. JRJoe Rogan56:51

        Ugh.

    16. EFEvan Funke56:52

        Absolutely.

    17. JRJoe Rogan56:52

        Do you just really?

    18. EFEvan Funke56:53

        I mean, internally, I'm fucking screaming.

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:55

        Right.

    20. EFEvan Funke56:56

        Like, "Can I have ... " I love cacio e pepe, but I hate black pepper. "Say what?" Like, black pepper, pasta, Pecorino Romano, that's, those are the three ingredients in it, but you gotta make sure-

    21. JZJanet Zuccarini57:08

        Yeah, it's a ... Is it ... The pasta's a vessel for the black pepper.

    22. JRJoe Rogan57:11

        Yeah, how could you say that?

    23. JZJanet Zuccarini57:12

        Yeah.

    24. EFEvan Funke57:12

        People do, all the time. All the time.

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:15

        And they have to talk ... You have to talk to these people? They say, "I'd like to speak to the chef?"

    26. EFEvan Funke57:18

        Oh, no, I have people to bu- buffer me from that. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:20

        Oh, God, I can only imagine.

    28. JZJanet Zuccarini57:22

        (laughs) But still in hospitality, I mean-

    29. JRJoe Rogan57:24

        (laughs)

    30. JZJanet Zuccarini57:25

        You know, uh, you know, we train our, our team to just, like, not make anything about you, and, you know, you just-

Episode duration: 1:51:01