Joe Rogan Experience #1501 - James Lindsay

1. 0:00 – 2:11

   Elephant rescue in Thailand and the ethics of animal tourism

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... do, what? You can ride an elephant in Thailand. I rode an elephant in Thailand.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      Nice.

   3. JLJames Lindsay0:05

      Yeah. It was actually, they were actually healthy, happy elephants that were well taken care of, because it's an elephant rescue. Um, so they're free. They're free elephants. They, they wander around. They, I mean, they literally came out of the mist in the jungle-

   4. NANarrator0:19

      (laughs) Oh, man.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Like, like a movie. It was crazy. And they're treated really, really well. So, um, I didn't like the riding part.

   6. NANarrator0:27

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      I thought that was kind of fucked up. But they don't give a fuck, man. You-

   8. NANarrator0:30

      They're huge.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:30

      ... you are literally like a hat to them.

   10. JLJames Lindsay0:32

       Yeah, they're huge.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Yeah.

   12. JLJames Lindsay0:33

       And strong.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       But they came over, and, um, the whole idea was you pay for this experience with the elephants. And, uh, in that, they rehabilitate these elephants and they've released many of them back to the wild.

   14. JLJames Lindsay0:46

       Oh, that's good stuff.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       'Cause they can... They don't need to be trained to be able to just eat vegetables and, and then let their-

   16. JLJames Lindsay0:52

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       ... vegetation. They just do it. So they came over, and you were introduced to the elephant that you were gonna take care of for the day, and then you, you start feeding it sugarcane, and they love you.

   18. JLJames Lindsay1:01

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       So you're feeding them and you touch them. They're super gentle, like, the, the, the most gentle creatures. And then you actually clean them off. You wash them off, and you, you, you... So there's, like, this grooming thing.

   20. JLJames Lindsay1:13

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       And then when you go to get on them, they know you're trying to get on them, so they actually lift their leg up like this, so that you can step on their leg.

   22. JLJames Lindsay1:21

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       And then you step on them and you climb on top of them. It's difficult. Like-

   24. JLJames Lindsay1:24

       It was hard, dude.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       ... it's hard to ride them. But, um, they literally don't give a fuck if you're on them, 'cause you're so light to them. And then they make their way through the jungle. But it was pretty cool.

   26. JLJames Lindsay1:33

       That's nuts, man.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. It was, um... It's humbling, you know? But that's, that's the only way I'd wanna be around them other than in the wild. Like, I get, I get bummed out at zoos.

   28. JLJames Lindsay1:47

       I do, too. That's... I mean, that's my story, right? So I've been yelled at for that. That's like the story of 2020, is getting yelled at for everything. But I rode... When I was a kid, you could ride elephants at the zoo. And so, I don't know-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       People got mad at you for that? (laughs)

   30. JLJames Lindsay1:59

       'Cause I... I mean, I told the story one time and people, like, lost their minds on me, 'cause I guess it's not okay now. It was, like, cost a dollar, so they weren't rehabilitating elephants or doing anything good with it.
2. 2:11 – 3:26

   Retroactive cancellation and the idea that people can’t grow

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Yeah, but they're mad at you for something you did when you were little, which is funny. That's one of the things that's going on now, is-

   2. JLJames Lindsay2:16

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:16

      ... people are retroactively getting canceled for things.

   4. JLJames Lindsay2:19

      The... Yeah, they, like they did when they were kids.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:21

      Yeah.

   6. JLJames Lindsay2:22

      It's ridiculous. It... I mean, it's like everything's a permanent stain on, on you. There's no growth. You can't become a better person. You can't learn.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:28

      What do you think that is? Like, what's, what's... What is the desire that people have to do that? Like, where is that coming from?

   8. JLJames Lindsay2:36

      Well, you know, there's, th- there's two ways we could talk about it. We could talk about the psychological side of it, which is, like, this moral purity thing that's going bonkers, or we could talk about it in terms of the, the ideas, the theory, that's fueling this. And that's all about, um... That has this idea that, that comes from French philosophy that, that words and ideas and thoughts and patterns have traces that don't ever really go away. And so, if something, you know, used to be associated with something bad and we still use the word, or even if you pretend that it was the case, uh, and you still use the word, then it carries this negative trace. So, the moral panic and the psychology side of it's fueled by this kind of, like, stupid idea that words always have to mean kind of what they meant in the first place.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:17

      Are people aware of that, though? Is it... I mean, is this just conveniently connected to it or, or conveniently similar?

   10. JLJames Lindsay3:23

       I mean-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       Or do you think that people are actually aware of this concept?

3. 3:26 – 4:44

   “Woke” as a church: everyday believers vs. academic theologians

   1. JLJames Lindsay3:26

      I don't think they... I don't think most people do. Like, there's this w-... So, you know, we're, we're generally talking about this whatever woke thing that's happening.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      Yeah.

   3. JLJames Lindsay3:33

      Right? And so, you gotta think of woke kind of like, kind of like a church, right? Like, you got... I grew up Catholic, so it's like you got cultural Catholics, like, they kind of go to church and maybe they go to confession sometimes, and they don't really... They do it, but they don't really do it. And then you have, like, the hardcores. Like, I had a friend in high school that, like, took notes at church.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      Oh, wow.

   5. JLJames Lindsay3:52

      Right? I'm like, "A-

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:52

      Serial killer. (laughs)

   7. JLJames Lindsay3:53

      Yeah, it's like, "You do what? You take notes?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:56

      (laughs)

   9. JLJames Lindsay3:56

      And then, you know, you've got the pastor, and he obviously studies it, or the priest in a Catholic context, and they study it. And then you've got the theologians that really study it. And so, the stuff I'm talking about is, like, theology level. Like, that's, like, the scholars.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:08

       Mm.

   11. JLJames Lindsay4:08

       And then your average person just wants to feel like a good person.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:11

       So you've got, like, the woke academics, like, the seriously, the woke people that are teaching it to kids-

   13. JLJames Lindsay4:19

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       ... that, that really teach it as, like, critical theory, like, critical race theory.

   15. JLJames Lindsay4:24

       That's right. Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       Yeah. So those-

   17. JLJames Lindsay4:26

       I mean-

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:26

       Those are the ones that are probably aware of all the nonsense.

   19. JLJames Lindsay4:29

       They're, they're making the nonsense, actually.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:31

       Yeah.

   21. JLJames Lindsay4:31

       It's... I think they pick some of it up from culture, you know, from activist groups or whatever. But then they refine it and turn it into something. And it, you know, has this really weird feeling to it. Like, you get the impression that it's like they're wrestling with their inner demons-

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Mm.

   23. JLJames Lindsay4:42

       ... and then they're, like, writing it down.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:44

       Yes.

4. 4:44 – 7:08

   White Fragility: moral panic, guilt narratives, and a lucrative training industry

   1. JLJames Lindsay4:44

      Like, it... Like, th- this book now, White Fragility, right, Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility, it's number one-

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      That's the one that Matt Taibbi destroyed.

   3. JLJames Lindsay4:51

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:52

      You know, thank God for Matt Taibbi.

   5. JLJames Lindsay4:54

      Yeah, so good.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:54

      Thank the baby Jesus and Odin.

   7. JLJames Lindsay4:56

      That's right. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:57

      (laughs)

   9. JLJames Lindsay4:57

      He is so good, though, um, because he's right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       Yeah.

   11. JLJames Lindsay4:59

       He's actually right about it. So if you read the book, there's all these weird vignettes that she tells, these stories. She's like, "Oh, I went to this potluck for work, and, um, I'm walking arou-... I walk up and then I see there's two parties. You are at the park, and there's two groups of people. One of them is all Black and one of them is not. And I had this moment of panic that I might have to be in the all-Black group." And it's like, "Lady, what's going on?" You know? And then it's like, "All white people are racist," is, like, her conclusion from this. And it's like, "Maybe it's you."

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       So-

   13. JLJames Lindsay5:28

       Maybe it's you.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       She... (laughs) So she had this panic that she was gonna have to party at the park with Black people?

   15. JLJames Lindsay5:34

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:34

       And she was worried that she was racist because of that, and therefore all white people are racist?

   17. JLJames Lindsay5:39

       See, that's what I'm thinking is going on, right? So I'm thinking... I've thought this for a number of years, is that a lot of this stuff where you get these, like, woke activists doing their blogs or these scholars writing this stuff down, is that they're looking at their own lives. So you have these people that are like, they're walking down the street, you know, maybe whatever. They walk into the hotel, they walk into the restaurant, and they're like, "I saw a Black guy." And then it's like, "I'm not supposed to notice that."... and then they start having, like, this thing in their head, and then they go write an angry blog about how terrible racism is because they're wrestling with it themselves.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JLJames Lindsay6:08

       It's like Sigmund Freud, right? He had that whole idea, um, that everybody wants to have sex with their mothers-

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       Yeah.

   21. JLJames Lindsay6:14

       ... and like, your psychology is all how you resolve that problem.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       (laughs)

   23. JLJames Lindsay6:17

       And it's like, "Maybe you just wanted to have sex with your mother, Sigmund Freud." You know? (laughs) And then now, it's everybody's a racist is, is kinda the, the vibe of the new thing. And there's like, this weird religious kind of-

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       Yeah.

   25. JLJames Lindsay6:29

       ... thing happening around it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:30

       That's really the thing that gets me, is how similar this is to religious, or relige- r- r- not just reli- religious ideology, like how rigid it is, but also indoctrination, like religious cults, how they indoctrinate people. And one of my friends, Kurt Metzger, a really funny guy who, um, was a Jehovah's Witness when he was younger.

   27. JLJames Lindsay6:52

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       And so, he's really, really, really sensitive to this stuff.

   29. JLJames Lindsay6:55

       Yep.

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:55

       He's like, "I know where this is going."
5. 7:08 – 13:21

   Double-binds and forced confession: how ideological trainings trap participants

   1. JLJames Lindsay7:08

      That's right. And they set you up, right? So every single, single one of these things, uh, sets you up. So for example, uh, I wa- one of my favorite examples of these kinda like, setups, right? Is, is, uh, historically, in the book, I talk about, um, historically, you know, the Black feminists came along and they were like, "Oh, feminism's too white. Feminism isn't paying attention to Black feminist issues or Black women's issues." And so then these feminists were like, "Oh, we have to fix that," you know? And they start writing about Black issues to the best of their ability. And then three years later, the lady writes a paper saying, "Oh, you're just sticking Black things in and it's fake, and you're tokenizing it and you're fetishizing it." And it's like, "So you can't do it right?" There's ... And so that- that is cult- uh, indoctrination stuff.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:50

      Yeah.

   3. JLJames Lindsay7:50

      So it's like you and I could be, you know, talking about something like this and you could say something and I'm like, "Don't you think it's a little bit racist?" And then the next step is like, "What are you gonna say? You're gonna say yes or no. If you say yes, now you've owned it, right?"

   4. JRJoe Rogan8:03

      Yeah.

   5. JLJames Lindsay8:03

      "So now, now you're like, racist." And so I'm like, "Well, uh, do you interrogate your racism? D- like, do you spend time working on that?" And so you see- so you keep dragging people into it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:10

      Yeah.

   7. JLJames Lindsay8:11

      And if you say no, I can say, "Well, one of the symptoms of participation in, in systemic racism is, is, is an inability to see it if you're white and, uh, it's invisible to you. And so maybe you need to look harder. W- and it seems like you're getting a little defensive."

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:26

      Oh.

   9. JLJames Lindsay8:27

      You know? And it's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:27

       Then you start panicking.

   11. JLJames Lindsay8:28

       And then you start panicking. And when you start to panic, when you start to stress out, they're like ... And, and literally, this lady emailed me the other day. This, this Indian woman. I get a lotta ... I get an insane number of emails about people-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       From India?

   13. JLJames Lindsay8:39

       No, no. From Canada.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       Oh. (laughs)

   15. JLJames Lindsay8:41

       But an insane number of emails from people who are in different, different, like, uh, levels of stress with different things that are happening in their lives around this woke explosion that's happened-

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:50

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JLJames Lindsay8:50

       ... s- you know, in the last month or so. So this lady's like, "I had to go through a brown fragility training at work."

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       What?

   19. JLJames Lindsay8:57

       Yeah, brown fragility is a thing now too.

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       So it's not even Black? Now it's they're working their way down to Brown people?

   21. JLJames Lindsay9:01

       Yeah, and Brown people have fragility-

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Oh, my God.

   23. JLJames Lindsay9:03

       ... and White people have fragility.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:03

       Those poor people. So people who racially were sort of like Switzerland ... Like, Indians like, in India? Like, no one ever thought they were racist.

   25. JLJames Lindsay9:13

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:14

       You never ... You would never hear about racist Indians.

   27. JLJames Lindsay9:17

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:17

       Maybe Russell Peters would joke around about it.

   29. JLJames Lindsay9:19

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       Right?
6. 13:21 – 20:00

   Trans issues and public pressure: Stephen King, Rowling, and MMA fairness

   1. JLJames Lindsay13:21

      It's (laughs) it's like, it's like the kinda stuff, like... So the other day, right? Stephen King got dragged into this with the whole trans thing.

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:29

      Yeah. How did he get dragged into that? What happened?

   3. JLJames Lindsay13:31

      Well, so he's s- he's a longtime been a supporter of J. K. Rowling.

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:35

      Yes.

   5. JLJames Lindsay13:35

      And J. K. Rowling has decided that she's had enough of this, you know, uh, trans rights thing going after the, the, the women's issues.

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:44

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JLJames Lindsay13:44

      And so at first Stephen King stood up for her and, and, and she put out a tweet saying, you know, "You're such a good friend," blah, blah, blah. And then somebody came after him and he's like, "Trans women are women."

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:55

      (laughs)

   9. JLJames Lindsay13:55

      And it's like, you know, he just caved, like, just immediately caved. And it's like all woke and no play makes Steve a dull boy, you know?

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JLJames Lindsay14:01

       And so he caves, and then, um... You get this sense that it's like something outta one of the novels he would have wrote.

   12. JRJoe Rogan14:09

       Yeah.

   13. JLJames Lindsay14:09

       Right? Like, all of a sudden, it's like Needful Things, it's like the whole town is going crazy because of demon possession and you have to get the stuff, the de- I don't know.

   14. JRJoe Rogan14:16

       Trans women are trans women.

   15. JLJames Lindsay14:18

       That's what they're-

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:18

       That's what they are.

   17. JLJames Lindsay14:19

       I don't see that as being difficult. As a matter of fact-

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:21

       I don't think that's difficult and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I, I, I, I-

   19. JLJames Lindsay14:23

       That's what I said.

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:24

       ... feel like they're equal to all of us and we're fine.

   21. JLJames Lindsay14:27

       Yeah. Like, what's the problem?

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:28

       I got dragged into that, if you know, because of a mixed martial arts fighter.

   23. JLJames Lindsay14:32

       Oh, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:33

       There was a woman-

   25. JLJames Lindsay14:34

       Fallon Fox.

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:34

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JLJames Lindsay14:35

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:36

       And I was like, "This is my hill. I will die on this hill."

   29. JLJames Lindsay14:39

       Oh, yeah. I mean, that's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       You're crazy.
7. 20:00 – 25:30

   Language engineering and ‘Translations from the Wokish’

   1. JLJames Lindsay20:00

      As opposed to saying trans women are women, woman is a- is a- is a broader category and it therefore confuses the situation. And I- I think that there's almost like a lot of manufactured drama, not just in that issue, but in all of this where the- these definitions are getting blurred out. So, I mean, that's what I do all the time now, the last year is like all I've been doing is researching how they misuse words and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JLJames Lindsay20:24

      ... writing it in, not trans people specifically, but this whole woke ideology or the social justice scholarship. And I've been writing an encyclopedia on my website about that, and it's just like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:35

      (laughs)

   5. JLJames Lindsay20:36

      ... I've been writing my own encyclopedia, uh, and it- it's- it's a monumental task, but it actually is really helping. People are- are emailing me every day and say, "You know, I can't make sense of this until- until I read your stuff."

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:46

      Oh, wow.

   7. JLJames Lindsay20:47

      And so it's like I have... I called it Translations for the Woke- from the Wokish, like going off of a- off of, um, Tolkien, where he's got, you know, Bilbo-

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:57

      Elvish.

   9. JLJames Lindsay20:57

      There's Elvish, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:59

       (laughs)

   11. JLJames Lindsay20:59

       And so I call it Translations from the Wokish. It's on my- my website, New Discourses, and, uh, it's got like 100 and something done now, 100 and something terms. So it's like, you know, they- they say the word folks. Why do they say folks?

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:13

       Why do they say folks?

   13. JLJames Lindsay21:13

       Right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:13

       I say folks all the time.

   15. JLJames Lindsay21:15

       Well, I do too. I'm from the South particularly, I have to, right? I can't get away from it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan21:18

       I just like the way it sounds.

   17. JLJames Lindsay21:19

       Well, it's good, but-

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:20

       These folks are crazy.

   19. JLJames Lindsay21:21

       Well, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:21

       I'm not saying that.

   21. JLJames Lindsay21:22

       But they say white folks-

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:23

       Oh.

   23. JLJames Lindsay21:23

       ... Black folks, queer folks, lesbian folks, and they... and it's like, there's this identity folks, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:29

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JLJames Lindsay21:29

       And so I want... The purpose of that encyclopedia was to dig into this terminology and make it clear, again, more clarity, not less, so the people can understand where it's coming from. So the reason they say folks is the same reason the Germans said folks in the 1930s-

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:43

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JLJames Lindsay21:43

       ... as it turns out. It's- it's an idea of a group culture, okay? So it's the idea of moving, uh, a culture into, you know, it's identifying a group of people and saying that it has... that they are a folk, that they have a culture. And of course, we're- we're most familiar with that, you know, as they say in the original German because, uh, somebody picked it up and yelled it a lot.

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:04

       And there's- there's also this issue that if a culture has been maligned, right? If they are marginalized, like trans people-

   29. JLJames Lindsay22:11

       Yep.

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:11

       ... then people who are not trans people are automatically thought of as in some way negative or bigoted or-
8. 25:30 – 31:45

   George Floyd, viral video, and “clip culture” as a narrative engine

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:30

      Do you think when things happen like the George Floyd murder, that it just, uh, it opens up a door and this stuff comes through and then the vibration changes? Like it, it moves to a higher frequency because it's more common?

   2. JLJames Lindsay25:42

      Yes. That's right. That's right. Uh, and I mean, there's a lot going on here too, right? So, um, the George Floyd case is, is actually fairly straightforward because, I mean, eight minutes and 46 seconds is fucked up. There's nothing else to say about it. I, I mean-

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:58

      Dude, 20 seconds is fucked up.

   4. JLJames Lindsay26:00

      I know. I-

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:01

      Espe- especially if you've got the guy down already.

   6. JLJames Lindsay26:02

      Three guys and you-

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:03

      Yeah.

   8. JLJames Lindsay26:04

      How hard is it to put cuffs on three guys?

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:05

      I mean, he's a... George Floyd was a big fellow.

   10. JLJames Lindsay26:07

       Sure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:07

       He's a big strong fellow, but there's no reason not just put a knee on the man's back.

   12. JLJames Lindsay26:12

       Exactly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:12

       If you want, yeah.

   14. JLJames Lindsay26:12

       And then how,how long do cuffs take?

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:14

       Right. Once the guy is cuffed, you, you just... You get him in the fucking car. You know, and just-

   16. JLJames Lindsay26:18

       Yeah. Let him, let him do what he's gonna do in the back of the car.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       I guess they had some sort of animosity, personal animosity to each other

   18. NANarrator26:23

       That's what I've heard. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:24

       ... which, you know, I would wonder if that would move it to first degree murder.

   20. JLJames Lindsay26:28

       I have no idea.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:29

       But...

   22. JLJames Lindsay26:29

       But, uh, what we have now is this culture where video goes viral, right? And this is a striking thing, so it's really more prominent in... I mean, it's pretty clear you could see the video with George Floyd, but if you back up to Michael Brown it's more complicated, in Ferguson.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:46

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JLJames Lindsay26:46

       Because, you know, the short video that went viral in the first place was, you know, a few s- you know, not very many seconds clip of this Black guy getting shot by... unarmed Black guy getting shot by a cop. But it doesn't tell the preceding story which has now come to light that involved, you know, him trying to take the cop's gun and like wrestling with him and charging at him. So the... it... A more complicated story where-

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:08

       Is that true though? Do we know that for a fact?

   26. JLJames Lindsay27:09

       I, I'm, I'm not an expert in this.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:11

       I'm scared of that narrative because, you know, I don't... uh, but I'd heard that narrative, but I'm like, "I would hate to get behind that and defend it."

   28. JLJames Lindsay27:18

       Sure. Sure. Sure. And that's actually my point. That's actually my point. So I was sent a video. I'm gonna skip tracks to a different video 'cause I wanna make a point that we live in a... we live in a mediated world now, right? A mediated epistemology is what I would call it. The, the m- media itself, social media, so all of us participating are able to spin narratives around like a 30-second video. So the other day this guy sends me a video on Twitter and I watch it and it's some Black guy with a microphone and in a, you know, like in a radio studio and he's like going and he's like, "You know, these white people ain't gonna take it no more. They ain't gonna take it no..." And he's like yelling. He's like, "Oh, they're gonna rise up." You know, and it's, it's obvious what... you're watching it and you're like, "Man, this guy is like... These riots are out of control." And so I wanted to share it, but it was sent to me on Twitter and I couldn't figure out how, so I looked it up on YouTube. And so I had like a 40-second clip sent to me and I'm like, "Oh, about these riots." And I wanted to show it to somebody and so I, I go and I find it on YouTube and I watch it and it's the same thing, 40 seconds and it ends. But the video that I watched was several minutes, and then the next thing the guy says is, "This president is divisive. This president is the problem. It's so divisive. He's causing all this division." And it's like, "Holy shit, he's actually talking about Trump." And then I kept watching and he's like, "President Obama has got to go," at the end. And so it depends on which part of that clip you see. The story changes completely. I watched the 40-

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:39

       Hmm.

   30. JLJames Lindsay28:39

       ... seconds and I was like, "Holy shit. This is the riots." And then, "Oh my God, it's about Trump." And then boom, now it's, it's this dude railing about Obama-
9. 31:45 – 47:12

   Twitter as a deconstruction machine: mental health, hecklers, and online addiction

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:45

      Don't you think that also just the, the format of Twitter itself is just... I think it's detrimental to people's mental health.

   2. JLJames Lindsay31:53

      Big time.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:54

      Communicating through these small little sentences-

   4. JLJames Lindsay31:58

      That's right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:59

      ... and, and little paragraphs of 280 words-

   6. JLJames Lindsay32:01

      That's right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:01

      ... or characters.

   8. JLJames Lindsay32:02

      Characters, yeah, yeah, so it's like 30 words.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:04

      Yeah, yeah.

   10. JLJames Lindsay32:04

       And so this... I actually call Twitter a deconstruction machine, which is straight out of this, again, the same critical postmodern philosophy stuff that I kinda keep circling around. Deconstruction is the idea that, um... a- and it's the same thing as the media, mediated ideas, that we're gonna take a thing apart, make it look absurd, or we're gonna show, show it in a particular light, and then, you know, pull it apart into a, uh, to- till you don't really trust its validity anymore.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JLJames Lindsay32:31

       And that's it... specifically its purpose, is to make it so that you don't trust the validity of the thing anymore. And so anything you put on Twitter, once you get an account of a certain size at least, anything... Like, I have an account that's big enough now, so I experience this regularly. It's a 100% chance that some jackass is gonna say something that just messes with your head, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:51

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JLJames Lindsay32:51

       And... or somebody's gonna take it out of context or they're gonna-

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       Yeah.

   16. JLJames Lindsay32:53

       ... they're gonna tell you what they thought you mean and now that's the thing you mean, or they're gonna screenshot it and it's gonna go around. And they're gonna... like, it's like... I mean, you're famous enough where it obviously happens to you all the time, I'm sure. It's like they take something that you say, you know, in a podcast or you put it on Twitter or your shows or whatever, and they clip it up, and then there's like... you know who Joe Rogan is, but then there's like this new Joe Rogan that they created that's out in the universe.

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JLJames Lindsay33:16

       Right? So they take you apart. They deconstruct you, the, the real Joe Rogan and your real intentions and your real meaning, and then they put it out into the world, and then there's this new Joe Rogan that does horrible thing or this new Joe Rogan maybe that's a saint.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Well, I always tell people too, like, if you have a, an issue with some of the things that I say, guess what? I have an issue with some of the things I say.

   20. JLJames Lindsay33:34

       Me too.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:35

       And if you were here with me when I say things and you disagreed, I'd listen to your point. I'm not an idealist or an ideologue-

   22. JLJames Lindsay33:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       ... when it comes to, uh, ideas-

   24. JLJames Lindsay33:46

       And that's thing.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:46

       ... when it comes to concepts. I'm not married to anything that I say.

   26. JLJames Lindsay33:50

       Right. So we need to be able to talk about it, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:52

       Yeah.

   28. JLJames Lindsay33:52

       So you say a thing and then I n- I'm like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:55

       But I think part of the problem is they can't talk about it.

   30. JLJames Lindsay33:57

       No, they can't.
10. 47:12 – 52:50

    The “grievance studies” hoax papers: dog-park ‘rape culture’ and academic incentives

    1. JLJames Lindsay47:12

       They weren't doing the right stuff. They were just doing the easy stuff. And he actually complained on TV that this had happened, that there'd been a sliding away from the serious work and toward the easier complaining stuff. And so, yeah, I think that it's, it's historically justifiable that that's exactly what happened. And of course, you know, I was here before, and we talked about those fake papers that-

    2. JRJoe Rogan47:32

       Yes.

    3. JLJames Lindsay47:32

       ... Peter and Helen and I wrote.

    4. JRJoe Rogan47:33

       Let's tell everybody what those are just, just because-

    5. JLJames Lindsay47:35

       Okay. (laughs)

    6. JRJoe Rogan47:35

       ... it's an amazing source of enjoyment and entertainment for folks that are looking for something to read.

    7. JLJames Lindsay47:41

       Right. So, sp- so we don't lose the point, real quick, we did, in less than, like, 10 months, the almost equivalent of a whole academic career in this stuff, and we're amateurs. So it's easy.

    8. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       And you did it as a joke-

    9. JLJames Lindsay47:53

       As a joke.

    10. JRJoe Rogan47:54

        ... and it got passed off as real and then actually applauded.

    11. JLJames Lindsay47:57

        That's right. So we wrote, uh, 20 fake academic papers in these exact fields, critical race theory, gender studies-

    12. JRJoe Rogan48:03

        So we should tell... Uh, Peter Boghossian did it with you.

    13. JLJames Lindsay48:05

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan48:05

        And, uh-

    15. JLJames Lindsay48:06

        Helen Pluckrose.

    16. JRJoe Rogan48:06

        ... Helen, Helen. It's Pluckrose.

    17. JLJames Lindsay48:08

        Yeah, Pluckrose.

    18. JRJoe Rogan48:09

        Pluckrose.

    19. JLJames Lindsay48:10

        Yeah. Most English-

    20. JRJoe Rogan48:11

        That word-

    21. JLJames Lindsay48:11

        The second most English name ever.

    22. JRJoe Rogan48:12

        And she wrote, uh, Cynical Theories with you.

    23. JLJames Lindsay48:15

        Yeah. So, um-

    24. JRJoe Rogan48:17

        Yeah, that's a very English name.

    25. JLJames Lindsay48:18

        It is a very English name. So we, we wrote these papers to try to show that this scholarship is bogus.

    26. JRJoe Rogan48:25

        Right.

    27. JLJames Lindsay48:26

        And so we spent just under a year writing crazy stuff.

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:30

        Please tell people the dog park one.

    29. JLJames Lindsay48:32

        You love them. (laughs)

    30. JRJoe Rogan48:33

        My favorite.
11. 52:50 – 1:14:32

    How it spread: teacher pipelines, DEI offices, and self-censorship in institutions

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:50

       How did that happen?

    2. JLJames Lindsay52:51

       Um, I mean, we were talking about, you know, the raise in the frequency thing when these events happen, uh, but mostly it's that they took over our colleges of education about 1980, and so they've been slowly turning teachers to the project.

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:06

       (sighs)

    4. JLJames Lindsay53:06

       And then in 2002 and '03, there were a couple Supreme Court cases that, that were talking about affirmative action, uh, and they said that if you wanna do affirmative action, you can do it if it increases diversity and equity and inclusion, so they started to build these offices in the university. And those university offices started to, like, dictate what you could and couldn't say, you could get in trouble or brought up to hearings. Even if you don't, even if the hearing finds you innocent, you still had to waste your time going to this humiliating hearing, and they're bringing up stuff and all your, you know... how do you, imagine you're, like, in a, in a department, right? And you get hauled before the diversity office, what are all your colleagues thinking about you now? Like, what did he do? Right?

    5. JRJoe Rogan53:43

       Right. Of course.

    6. JLJames Lindsay53:44

       So all of a sudden, it starts just pushing everybody to not criticize this stuff.

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:48

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JLJames Lindsay53:49

       Right? And it j-

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:49

       Self-censorship-

    10. JLJames Lindsay53:50

        Exactly.

    11. JRJoe Rogan53:51

        ... out of fear.

    12. JLJames Lindsay53:52

        Silencing people. Getting them to silence-

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:53

        Yeah.

    14. JLJames Lindsay53:54

        ... themselves-

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:54

        Yes.

    16. JLJames Lindsay53:54

        ... actually. And so then they take that, that lack of criticism and then they can just go crazy with their stuff. It's like critical race theory specifically, people email me all the time and they say, "Where are the scholarly criticisms of critical race theory?" And I actually write back, I'm like, (laughs) "Huh, it d- you're not allowed to do that." Like, the most recent ones in law journals, like substantive ones, are from the 1990s. So there's nobody criticizing this stuff.

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:19

        Oh, wow.

    18. JLJames Lindsay54:19

        So when you aren't criticizing it, I mean, scholarship depends on people shooting down your bad ideas.

    19. JRJoe Rogan54:24

        Peer review.

    20. JLJames Lindsay54:25

        You know when South Park talks about them smelling their own farts or whatever, smelling each other's farts, it literally, it's like, it's that, that's what's happening.

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:31

        Right. Yeah.

    22. JLJames Lindsay54:32

        Nobody's ever telling them that they're wrong. Nobody's ever allowed to cri- and you can't criticize it. Why? Because if you criticize critical race theory, you must be a racist.

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:39

        Now, what was the response to you guys getting an award for that once you revealed that this was all horseshit?

    24. JLJames Lindsay54:46

        Oh, she wasn't happy. The editor of that journal was not happy. She felt, like, betrayed, like, you know, and-

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:51

        Well, she was.

    26. JLJames Lindsay54:52

        She was. She was. But she felt, you know, like I had been so nice (laughs) . I was so kind to her, and she was very kind to me, I have to be... she's, she was a very nice person. Most of these people, that's very important to them, these are mostly nice people. There are-

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:03

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JLJames Lindsay55:04

        ... some hustlers.

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:04

        Right.

    30. JLJames Lindsay55:04

        And they take advantage of that situation.

Episode duration: 3:02:46