Joe Rogan Experience #1517 - Nancy Panza

1. 0:00 – 1:54

   Nancy Panza’s role: professor + forensic/police psychologist in a moment of crisis

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... one. (claps) Hello, Nancy.

   2. NPNancy Panza0:02

      Hi, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      How are you?

   4. NPNancy Panza0:03

      I am doing well.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Thanks for being here.

   6. NPNancy Panza0:05

      Thank you for having me. Thanks for letting me come and talk.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Um, my pleasure. Uh, so, tell everybody what you do.

   8. NPNancy Panza0:11

      So, I am... Well, my day job, I'm a professor in the psychology department at Cal State Fullerton, and in my side gig, I am a forensic and police psychologist.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      That is a very appropriate subject-

   10. NPNancy Panza0:26

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       ... for the strange times we find ourselves in right now.

   12. NPNancy Panza0:29

       Indeed.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       So, as you are watching all this play out, from the George Floyd murder to where we're at right now, um, w- what, what has this been like for you since this is your field of study?

   14. NPNancy Panza0:46

       It's a weird place to be and you're kind of, (sighs) uh, for me, caught in between two worlds it seems. Um, (smacks lips) I mean, my job is to take care of police officers. So, keep them healthy, keep them well, to make sure that they can do a good job doing their jobs. Um, (smacks lips) and so the first thing I see is, oof, we got a mess on our hands. Um, for me, when I see a lot of the videos that end up, you know, on, on TV, my initial reaction is, "Well, let's have a look. Is there something really to be upset about here?" And, (scoffs) well, obviously in seeing the, the video of George Floyd's murder, there's a whole lot to be upset about here. And so, you know, heartache comes from that. Um, and then my, you know, my next response is to kick in is, "Okay, we've, we've got problems on both sides." We need to n- not only figure out why such things are happening and prevent them, 'cause that's not good. Nobody wants bad policing, even the police don't want bad policing. On the other hand, how do we also take care of our officers who are out there, who now have to go out and continue doing their jobs in a really, (sighs) difficult and overwhelming environment?

2. 1:54 – 3:31

   “Mostly good” policing vs. headline failures: training, funding, and public perception

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      Yeah, it's such a strange time because on one hand, you, you got all these people that are calling out for defunding the police, and, you know, this is... Here's a point of view that, uh, Ben Shapiro had when he talked about the protests. He said, um, he said, "Saying they're mostly peaceful protests is like saying O.J. Simpson had a mostly peaceful day when he killed Nicole Simpson 'cause he was only violent for a couple minutes. The rest of the day, he was m- it was mostly peaceful."

   2. NPNancy Panza2:25

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      And he's like, "That's a, a good way to describe the protests." I think you could also say the same thing about the police department. The police department and police officers are mostly good people doing a good job.

   4. NPNancy Panza2:38

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:38

      But the problem is when one, out of all these millions of interactions, when one goes bad or there's a bad officer, people see that, they highlight that, and then they say, "This is the cops. These are the cops." I don't think that's true. I've met a lot of great police officers. I know a lot.

   6. NPNancy Panza2:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:56

      (sighs) And it's an insanely difficult job. I don't think they get paid enough. I don't think they get respected enough. I don't think they get trained well enough. Um, I had Jocko Willink on here, who's a former Navy SEAL commander, and-

   8. NPNancy Panza3:08

      Yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:08

      ... his perspective is very clear. He's like, "They do not train enough." He goes, "If I was in control, they would be trained 20% of their time, 20% of their week would be spent in training."

   10. NPNancy Panza3:17

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       "Deescalation drills, safety drills, how to handle things if one o- one of your partners is losing his cool. All, all, all sorts of drills that they should be doing, that they do do in the Navy SEALs, that they should be doing in the police department as well."

3. 3:31 – 7:24

   What police academies miss: communication and de-escalation as core job skills

   1. NPNancy Panza3:31

      Yep. I listened to your, uh, your podcast with Jocko on it and I was, I was blown... Actually, I listened to it twice. (laughs) I listened to it the first time and was like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes." I loved everything that he had to say.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      Well, he's a real leader.

   3. NPNancy Panza3:43

      He's so good. He's so good. And, and his idea about training was, I mean, I'm in full agreement and full... The 20% training thing would be, would be super hard, especially n- now where we are, 'cause money's going away, not coming in-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:57

      Right.

   5. NPNancy Panza3:57

      ... 'cause that would mean 20% of the force would be off training and we'd need that many more officers and that many people on duty, you know, to fill in the active ro- So, you know, uh, while that would be a dream, and I think he's right, all those skills that you need, if you're not actively, you know, if you're not-

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      (sniffs) .

   7. NPNancy Panza4:13

      ... actively training and keeping them up to par, they're going to, they're gonna go away.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:17

      Yeah.

   9. NPNancy Panza4:17

      They're gonna decay. But on top of what he said, the piece where I was like, "Y- yeah, but let me come in and talk with you too," (laughs) is, is that, you know, he thinks, like the warrior that he is, you know, Navy SEAL, super tough guy, talking about firearms. And he's right, the firearms training is probably not enough. But what's even more so, especially in today's world and society, is that when you look at the, um, the makeup of a police academy training, you know, first of all, it's, it's so short. And, and they do, they get field training after that for a long period of time, and so that, that's good, it balances it out. But the content of the academy, you know, by far most of that time and training is spent learning laws, learning the kind of textbook of, of what it is to be a cop and how to function. And then, the other parts, there's the physical training and the firearms training. But if you look at what happens once a police officer gets out there on the job and what they're doing, a huge percentage of it is in communicating. And there is almost none. Almost none. Um, (smacks lips) you know, the example I think of that comes to mind m- most, when I... Prior to being at Cal State Fullerton, I was a, uh, faculty member at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. Um, and so, in the city we worked, uh, we did some trainings with the NYPD and we had a contract to do deescalation training. So when the recruits are coming through the academy, they would come over to John Jay and we would have police trainers and, and us, the psychologists would come in, and we had these wonderful actors who are, uh, trained to portray individuals with mental illness, and we did this interactive deescalation training. Um, teach them how to talk to somebody, how to... What do you say that's gonna help bring someone down as opposed to s- And it was this, you know, okay, ready? Here goes this training scenario. We pull these rookies up who are scared to death, give 'em like a block gun. Say, "Okay, go." Like wood block, not a real weapon.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:01

       Right.

   11. NPNancy Panza6:01

       You know, go to it and, and, and engage this individual. And our actors are, were brilliant and, and, and portray these, uh, individuals with mental illness wonderfully. And, you know, inevitably they'd come in hot and things, you know, screaming erupts and the, the rookie's going for their gun and we're like, "Okay, okay, okay. S- Hold up. Stop. Let's talk about what just happened." From the psychology side, we kind of explained, "Here's what's going on. Here's why that didn't work with this type of individual." The police tac- you know, would come in on the tactics side and we'd say, "Okay, rewind. Do over," and then we would run them through the scenario and we would keep stopping and starting. And this interactive, like hands-on training-... by the end of the day they were like, "I learned more today than I learned in the last (laughs) two months."

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       Yeah.

   13. NPNancy Panza6:40

       But we got them for one day.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Right.

   15. NPNancy Panza6:42

       Six hours, and then that's it. You know, so that whole constant training and giving the skills, not just the firearms and the tactics and the f- you know, how to use force properly, but also the communication and dealing with these stressful situations and, and distressed individuals, because that is what they do nonstop, day in and day out.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       Yeah. I, I know what you're saying when you were talking about how difficult it would be to actually have them train 20% of the time.

   17. NPNancy Panza7:14

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:14

       But I don't think it's difficult enough that we should ignore it. I think th- I think if ... Obviously, I'm never gonna be in control, but if I was in control, I would say, "That's how it's gotta be."

   19. NPNancy Panza7:23

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       We have to hire more people.

   21. NPNancy Panza7:24

       Yeah.

4. 7:24 – 10:01

   Trauma exposure and resilience: why breakdowns are hard to predict

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:24

      We need ... I think they need way more people, way better training, and I think there also has to be evaluations in terms of like, w- how are they dealing with stress? 'Cause it's not just how to deescalate, how to deal with a, a situation with, uh, with uh, uh, a possible criminal, but also how are you dealing with the fact that every time you go to work you might get shot?

   2. NPNancy Panza7:48

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      You, you might not ever come home to your family. How many times do you see suicides? How many times do you see murders? How many times do you see car accidents and, uh ... All that stuff weighs on a person.

   4. NPNancy Panza7:58

      Absolutely.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:58

      And all those police officers that see that stuff every day, depending entirely upon ... and that's one of the things Jocko talked about-

   6. NPNancy Panza8:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      ... their psychological makeup, he talked about it with, uh, soldiers, that some soldiers can see some crazy shit and be like, "It's okay, I'm good to go."

   8. NPNancy Panza8:12

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:12

      And then other soldiers are like, "I'm fucked up. I don't know what to do here. I-"

   10. NPNancy Panza8:16

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:16

       "I have anxiety. I can't sleep. I'm a, I'm a nervous wreck."

   12. NPNancy Panza8:20

       Same thing is true for, for cops. Some folks are ... They can go through, you know, have the worst call that you could imagine, death, gore, you know, loss of a child's life. I mean, these things are, are horrific and they see it and, you know, they, they react and it's awful, but they recover and, and, and they're okay the next day. And then, you know, on the opposite hand, you've got somebody who has m- maybe a, a, a less intense or, you know, a less horrific call, and it just puts them over the edge. And, you know, from the psychology side, you know, we've studied this, we've looked at this. What i- how can we tell, is there a way we can predict, you know, what type of event, what type of person, who, who is likely to, to, to fall apart, t- to end up with, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder? C- can we tell who's likely to develop a, you know, a, a clinical syndrome later? And, and the s- the short answer is we can't.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:09

       Hm.

   14. NPNancy Panza9:09

       There are some things that, that we know, and obviously, you know, some of them are really logical. If you're in a higher state of stress, if you've already got vulnerabilities going in, you're, you know, going through a divorce at home and unhappy on the job and drinking too much outside and you've got all these other things that are already, you know, festering underneath, and then you also are put in front of that, you know, i- it's not sh- surprising that, that maybe that would push somebody over the edge into a really troubling place. But other times, you know, it, it's really hard thing to predict. And so instead, we need to be there and be on it. And there are ... I mean, there's so many things I can add in about, you know, how we do that in, in ways that we're really falling short, which is kind of my, my passion and where I am these days, in trying to do a much better job of being on, you know, what we would call officer wellness, because we've historically done a really shitty job.

5. 10:01 – 13:29

   Post-incident protocols: debriefings, judgment calls, and return-to-duty decisions

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:01

      Is there a standard procedure, li- when someone comes back from, say, uh, witnessing a murder? Is there a standard way that they interact with them across all police departments or is it depending upon the department and what setup the sheriff or the, the police chief h- has put in place?

   2. NPNancy Panza10:18

      Yeah. Very much depending on the department-

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:20

      (laughs)

   4. NPNancy Panza10:20

      ... and what they've put in place.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:21

      Mm-hmm.

   6. NPNancy Panza10:21

      So when it comes to like, the mental health and psychology, the, the things that we do with departments are ... It's, it's very standard these days. Like I w- I think the numbers show about 80, n- 90, sorry, (laughs) 98% of departments do a pre-employment, uh, psychological evaluation before they're hired. That's what I spend the majority of my time doing, is, is screening people who are starting the job. So that part is very normal to do. And I can tell you all about that process. Beyond that, what happens from there on out is very much up in the air, depends on the department. Some departments require a, what we would call a, a, you know, a critical incident debriefing. Um, so some of the agencies that I work with will, if, if somebody is involved or there's a, a major incident, every officer who was on scene there will come in and do a debriefing with me or with another psychologist, um, to check in afterwards. And a lot of that is just where are they, how are they in this, in this moment, are they okay to go home, are they safe?

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:20

      (laughs) How do you determine that?

   8. NPNancy Panza11:21

      And education. (smacks lips) And also-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:22

      Is it just a judgment call?

   10. NPNancy Panza11:24

       It is. It's a judgment call. Um, and the ones that I've done, I would say most of the time it feels pretty clear-cut. Most of the time folks are either they're doing all right, they're a little shaken up, which is normal. I mean, anybody who experiences something life-threatening is gonna be off, off at that point. So a lot of what we do in those, in those debriefings is education. Um, I have these little handouts that I give to all the officers that go through and say, "This is what you are likely feeling right now. This is what you're likely to feel in the next couple days. And anything kinda goes." You know, w- we say, "In those first few days, whatever you're feeling is, is, is probably okay." But then over the course of the first week, we expect people to settle in and to start recovering. And if you're not, then we wanna start paying attention to the ways ... Are you still not sleeping? Are you having nightmares? Are you having flash- you know, what's going on? And, you know, again, varies by department, some of them will then also offer up to four sessions to come back and continue meeting, um, to, to see them through that kind of early adjustment phase. And then if they're still struggling at the point at the end, then we can refer them to longer term for treatment. Um, and if everything looks fine, then we say, "Okay, you know, resume duty or, or you're cleared to go back." So that, that initial meeting afterwards is us- is mandatory, at least for the departments that choose to do it.... that's a mandatory. Couple sessions afterwards are not, they're, they're if needed. And then from there, we kinda set the path, like, all good, clear, or let's carry on and keep, you know, keep working with you until you can recover.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:59

       Do you support this idea that it should be controlled locally by each individual police department or do you think there should be a nationwide mandate, like some sort of a, a s- a standard operational procedure where they, they treat everyone the same way, train everyone the same way, deal with every single murder, suicide, child death, and they have, like, a protocol that they follow so i- it's just standard across the country-

   12. NPNancy Panza13:27

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       ... based on science?

6. 13:29 – 23:55

   Stigma and fear: why officers avoid mental-health support (and why mandates help)

   1. NPNancy Panza13:29

      I- I do. I think many of these things, these fundamental pieces, should be mandatory. I think pre-employment psychological evaluation is an absolute must. And, and again, most agencies do that piece. I think the critical incident debriefings are an absolute must and should always occur, and they should be mandatory 'cause that takes away the stigma. You know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:48

      Right. Right.

   3. NPNancy Panza13:49

      No cop wants to come see the shrink.

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:50

      Of course.

   5. NPNancy Panza13:50

      They see you coming-

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:51

      Of course.

   7. NPNancy Panza13:51

      ... and they're like- (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:52

      Right. Of course.

   9. NPNancy Panza13:52

      ... "I'm out of here." Like, "No, keep the shrink away."

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:55

       But they're probably-

   11. NPNancy Panza13:55

       Because-

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:55

       ... trying to deal with it their own way.

   13. NPNancy Panza13:57

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:58

       And then somebody that they don't even know-

   15. NPNancy Panza14:00

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       ... who comes in and starts probing and asking questions, and they see some guy in a suit-

   17. NPNancy Panza14:04

       Yep.

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       ... maybe he's never even seen a dead body-

   19. NPNancy Panza14:07

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:07

       ... and you're like, "Hey, shut the fuck up, man."

   21. NPNancy Panza14:09

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:09

       "I know what I'm doing. Let me just go back out there and go to work."

   23. NPNancy Panza14:11

       And the other things that feed into that are, I mean, obviously, we know law enforcement, just like military, the culture is very-

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:17

       Yes.

   25. NPNancy Panza14:17

       ... "I am in control."

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:18

       Right.

   27. NPNancy Panza14:19

       "I got this."

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:19

       Right.

   29. NPNancy Panza14:20

       "I don't need your help. I am tough. I am..." You know?

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:22

       And supported by each other.
7. 23:55 – 27:35

   National standards vs. local control: the patchwork of U.S. policing

   1. NPNancy Panza23:55

      Again, it's gonna vary by department.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:57

      It varies. That- isn't that kind of crazy that it does vary by department?

   3. NPNancy Panza23:59

      Most... Yeah, it drives me nuts. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan24:01

      And is... has this discussion been had, like, nationwide?

   5. NPNancy Panza24:05

      Oh, there's, there's so many good things and pieces of advice and recommendation out there. One of the things that's kind of painful right now is, you know, every morning I get a, a news recap from the International Association of Chiefs of Police. They send this email out to all the, all the members of there, and they have, you know, they have psychological services group. And so I get these updates and I, I, I usually just kind of pass them over, but lately, with all the police reform, so just headlines from around the country. And the piecemeal randomness of, of this city is doing this, and this city is doing this, and this city is doing this, and this city... and it's all over the place, you know, same, that's driving me nuts.

   6. JRJoe Rogan24:44

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NPNancy Panza24:44

      'Cause I'm like, there's already been groups that have studied and reported and told us what we need to do to help the, the, the world of policing rise up and do better. We've-

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:55

      Yeah.

   9. NPNancy Panza24:55

      That information's out there from, from wonderful, brilliant people who've come together and have laid it out for us.It's there, but yet we, we don't have that national standard. Each state has certain, you know, uh, uh, most states have a group. Like in California, it's the California POST, um, you know, it's the Police Officer Standards and Training. So they set all the rules for, um, training requi- minimal training requirements for all the departments in California. So all the agencies, police agencies here in this state are, you know, need to comply with all of the POST recommendations. But they're all, you know, it's a minimum standard and our POST, California POST, is kind of heads and tails ahead of most of the country. Some, some states don't actually have that organization. Most do have something similar to like what we have. So they do set some standards, but there's so many things that are not included in that. Um-

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:50

       Mm-hmm.

   11. NPNancy Panza25:51

       And, and so it is a bit, y- you know, random. It's hard, I think, to make a one-size-fits-all, everybody must do this, because if you think about it, I think there's about 18,000 different police agencies in the US, and I think I read about 50% of those have 10 or fewer full-time officers. So, you know, when you've got podunk, tiny little town in the middle of, you know, the Midwest in a very rural county that, that's, you know, that's a whole lot different than LAPD.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:21

       Right.

   13. NPNancy Panza26:22

       So it's, it's hard to have everybody on the same standard and the same expectations when we've got a lot of different makeups for a lot of different departments. That said, there are some fundamentals that I think every department should be held to. Um, and, and one of those is the debriefings after an incident, and the one that, that almost no one is doing that's been talked about for a while is regular mental wellness checks. You know, at this point, you get a psych eval when you're hired or before you're hired, and if you're in a critical incident, you may or may not get one. More, more are starting to do that. And then the only other time you're gonna be required to see the psychologist is if you have messed up and you're in trouble and you're referred for a fitness for duty evaluation. And at that point, your job is on the line. Someone is saying that they think you're not fit for duty, and that is a scary evaluation to have to be a, a part of. 'Cause then you're going in and, and yeah, if the psychologist judges and decides that you are not able to go back out, well then you're, then you're off duty until you can fix whatever that problem may be.

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:29

       Right. Well, uh, also, just for the public's health and welfare, it's important to do that.

   15. NPNancy Panza27:34

       Sure.

8. 27:35 – 36:53

   Preventing “another Minneapolis”: screening limits, culture, and regular wellness checks

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:35

      I mean, there clearly are a lot of police officers that are unfit for duty. How, how do we stop what happened in Minneapolis? How do we stop that from, from happening or at least mitigate it?

   2. NPNancy Panza27:49

      So I mean, again, I, I see everything through my lens as a psychologist-

   3. JRJoe Rogan27:53

      Yes.

   4. NPNancy Panza27:53

      ... as a police psychologist. So I'm sure there are things beyond my realm that, that also answer this question. But for me, the things that I think we could be doing different that would really make a difference are the regular annual mental wellness checks. If, i- th- from my perspective, when I look at people like, you know, Derek Chauvin, the, the officer that, that murdered George Floyd, and we see what happened there, he... I would say, I would be willing to guess, and I, I don't know him, I've never met him, I don't know m- much about his career other than what I've read in the news and, and whatnot, police officers that get to that place become that.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:33

      Right.

   6. NPNancy Panza28:33

      They're not that when they're hired.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:35

      Right.

   8. NPNancy Panza28:35

      To get hired as a cop, you have to go through what often takes a year-long application process where they are digging and poking into every aspect of your background, your life.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:44

      Let's be clear though. That's in some places.

   10. NPNancy Panza28:47

       In-

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:47

       In other places, it's pretty easy.

   12. NPNancy Panza28:49

       It, again, smaller departments that don't have-

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:51

       Yeah.

   14. NPNancy Panza28:51

       ... the resources, probably-

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:52

       Right.

   16. NPNancy Panza28:52

       ... probably so.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:53

       Yeah.

   18. NPNancy Panza28:54

       And then-

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:54

       I won't, I shouldn't say pretty easy. In comparison.

   20. NPNancy Panza28:57

       In comparison, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan28:58

       Yeah.

   22. NPNancy Panza28:58

       But the vast majority of departments have a pretty, you know, have a, have a similar process-

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:02

       Mm-hmm.

   24. NPNancy Panza29:03

       ... in that you're gonna go through the application, you have to pass a written test, there's gonna be a, a background investigation-

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:09

       Mm-hmm.

   26. NPNancy Panza29:09

       ... which really I think is a hugely powerful key part, i- that it should be a well-done background investigation. Um, you know, they're talking to people who you know, people from your past, your landlord, your ex-wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend-

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:21

       They have the resources-

   28. NPNancy Panza29:22

       ... your whoever.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:22

       ... to do that for every single candidate?

   30. NPNancy Panza29:24

       They do. Now, some agencies take far more care than others.
9. 36:53 – 44:40

   Defund the police debate: unintended consequences, crime spikes, and Plan B problems

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:53

      There seems to be a lot of discussion now about police brutality, but there's not a lot of discussion about the psychological troubles and the, the really ... the difficult path of being a police officer-

   2. NPNancy Panza37:07

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan37:08

      ... and appreciation for the people that have to do that job.... um, all this defunding the police talk scares the shit out of me-

   4. NPNancy Panza37:16

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:16

      ... because, uh, I see what's going on right now in New York City and it's a goddamn shooting gallery. It's crazy. And the reason why is because the police officers have no trust in the mayor. They wanna quit. They don't feel like they get any respect. They feel like they, they've all been lumped in with this one murderous cop from Minneapolis-

   6. NPNancy Panza37:37

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan37:38

      ... now they're all bad cops and there's a license to call them bad cops, scream terrible things at them when they've done nothing wrong, when they're just there to protect and serve. A lot of 'em are good people.

   8. NPNancy Panza37:49

      Oh, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan37:49

      The v- the vast majority. So when you're seeing this giant uptick in murders in New York Ci- City and giant uptick in shootings and then you still have that dipshit of a mayor calling for the defunding of the police, like, my God. Like, what, w- I, I know so much of the things they say are just political because they just wanna appeal to their base.

   10. NPNancy Panza38:09

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:09

       And there's so many people out there that have this very narrow-minded perspective. They just have blinders on. And their idea... It's like racial justice, social justice, defund the police. It's just like this mantra that they have to say with no depth to it. They don't understand the consequences of saying such a thing or implementing such a thing. Now we're seeing a call for police action because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of community groups, a lot of people that are community leaders that are in these communities that are just e- experiencing unprecedented gun violence and crime.

   12. NPNancy Panza38:43

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:43

       And now they're saying p- we gotta do something about this. So they're trying to reinstate some of these policies that they had pulled before. I'm hoping that through this, what we have talked about with training and with, uh, funding the police more instead of defunding the police, train them better, fund them more. We, you obviously need police. This idea that you don't need police. Are, are criminals just gonna go away? Like, is crime gonna go away? You know, we have a problem.

   14. NPNancy Panza39:12

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan39:12

       We have an enormous number of people, and out of that enormous number of people, there is a certain percentage of them that will victimize other people. They will steal. They will kill. They w- And if they don't get caught, then you develop a culture of crime.

   16. NPNancy Panza39:26

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:26

       And then you develop a, a thing where you, you, you basically have what's going on in Mexico where the cartels have more power than the police.

   18. NPNancy Panza39:35

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:36

       Which is a terrible situation. If you have that in individual locations like in New York City, if all of a sudden, these criminal gangs, these, these criminal gangs develop more gun power, more, more support of the community, they have more people than police officers, you've got a giant problem.

   20. NPNancy Panza39:53

       Oh, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan39:53

       And the, the actual peaceful citizens are the ones that are gonna be in trouble. And all those people that are out there protesting that think they're immune from it because they're the ones saying "defund the police," hey, man, they'll fucking rob you too.

   22. NPNancy Panza40:05

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:05

       They'll shoot you too. Like you don't understand humans. And you don't understand violence.

   24. NPNancy Panza40:09

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:09

       And so this utopian world that they're trying to push, like defund the police, we're just gonna, we're gonna refund, w- we're gonna put that money into the community and everything's gonna be fine. Eh. It's not gonna be fine. You need to fund the police more. You need to train the police better. We need more oversight. And we need to recognize that this is a time where everybody's gotta come together on this. And we gotta figure out what's wrong, fix what's wrong, recognize that there's some problems. But you can't blame all cops.

   26. NPNancy Panza40:34

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:35

       And you can't say defund the police 'cause that's nonsense. That, this, that is a, a silly, uh, uh, l- like a version of life that doesn't... It's not real.

   28. NPNancy Panza40:44

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan40:45

       You need good cops, better cops. Are you saying we need to get rid of bad cops? Yes, definitely. I think everybody agrees with that. How do you do that? That's where the question starts.

   30. NPNancy Panza40:54

       Right.
10. 44:40 – 1:16:01

    Force, fitness, and “verbal judo”: why better communication prevents escalation

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:40

       Yeah. Um, I go to a, a tactical range where they, uh, teach you how to shoot handguns. And, uh, the guy who teaches me was telling me, "You would be stunned at how inept some of these cops are that come here." He goes, "They literally barely know how to shoot a gun." And I wouldn't believe him except I've seen so many cops that are so fat and so sloppy, and I'm like, "How are you gonna defend yourself?" Like y- y- the idea of you serving and protecting, like, dude, if someone throws you on the ground, you're not even getting up. Like, how does that happen? How do they not have standards for y- like, being able to shoot a gun, knowing how to handle it properly, being accurate, being consistent with your training, and also physical fitness? Like, that's... The job of a police officer is dealing occasionally with violent criminals. When you have no capacity to defend yourself, how are you able to help people? Your only he- like, if you're in a situation where there, something turns physical, if you have no ability to defend yourself physically other than firearms-

    2. NPNancy Panza45:52

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       ... y- a, a, a situation that could be deescalated turns into a violent encounter because you have to shoot someone.

    4. NPNancy Panza46:00

       So, a couple things that come to mind. So, y- you know, imagine that police officers do get annual firearms training. They do get a, have to pass, in most places, an annual physical fitness test. And you're saying, you know, already you're seeing-

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:14

       How is that possible?

    6. NPNancy Panza46:15

       ... you're seeing people who are out of shape and overweight and physically not in great condition, and you're seeing people who can't shoot well. But yet those are regular, there are regular firearms trainings, annual firearms trainings, and there are-

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       Everywhere?

    8. NPNancy Panza46:26

       ... regular physical fitness tests.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       Everywhere, though?

    10. NPNancy Panza46:28

        Um, most states have a minimum inf- initial training, and, uh, again, i- it, there's so much variety that I'm sure not everywhere.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:35

        Mm-hmm.

    12. NPNancy Panza46:35

        But most departments have annual, you know, service that you, y- inservice training you gotta go through and do. And so, if we're still seeing that, people who are out of shape yet they've passed a physical fitness test and who can't shoot but are p- Imagine their mental health, imagine what that looks like.

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:51

        Right.

    14. NPNancy Panza46:52

        And there is no annual mental health training, mental health check-in. And I promise you that the job erodes that over time, so just-

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:00

        Oh, yeah.

    16. NPNancy Panza47:00

        ... if, if the things we can actually see, (laughs) that the shooting isn't on par and the physical health isn't on par, the one we can't see, what's going on on the inside, imagine how messy that might be.

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:10

        Yeah.

    18. NPNancy Panza47:10

        And there's nothing. We have no oversight and no regular check-ins there. So, that's, that's one thing that sort of stands out as like... But, but imagine that.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:18

        Yeah.

    20. NPNancy Panza47:19

        Um, you know, the other thing is firearms training, obviously it is super important if you're going to carry a weapon to be able to use it and to use it well, but it's also not something that you're going to encounter on a regular basis on the job. There are officers who go through their entire career without ever pulling a weapon.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:37

        Well, that's great.

    22. NPNancy Panza47:38

        Right? That is great. And when you do, it, it should be few and far between because there are other, other ways to manage situations. There are... You know, that's lethal force, and then we've got a variety of, of, you know, non-lethal force, whether it's something hand, you know, physical, hand, uh, you know, hand-to-hand kind of thing-

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:56

        Mm-hmm.

    24. NPNancy Panza47:56

        ... or whether it's a taser or baton or whatever else they may be using or having on their, you know, their tool belt. So, there are, there are other options there. So, hopefully, you know, the, the continuum is, is set from verbal, deescalation, communication. When that doesn't work and it's still a danger, then you, you know, there are certain criteria. And, and obviously officers are taught their continuum of force and what needs to be necessary to move up that level-... with deadly force, you know, or lethal force being the highest. So, i- i- it's so rare that, to me, there's so much else that comes before that, that if we're doing a good job, that almost is never an issue, because these other tools work better.

    25. JRJoe Rogan48:45

        Wait a minute. What's almost never an issue?

    26. NPNancy Panza48:47

        Having to sh-

    27. JRJoe Rogan48:47

        Being able to use a weapon?

    28. NPNancy Panza48:48

        Having to shoot someone. Having to get to where you're breaking a strap and you're pulling your weapon and you're firing at someone. That should... I, I mean, that is a, that is the last, last, last... It doesn't happen on a daily basis.

    29. JRJoe Rogan49:01

        But isn't that entirely dependent-

    30. NPNancy Panza49:03

        It's-

Episode duration: 1:54:52