Joe Rogan Experience #1517 - Nancy Panza

Joe Rogan 0:00 ... one. (claps) Hello, Nancy.

Nancy Panza 0:02 Hi, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:03 How are you?

Nancy Panza 0:03 I am doing well.

Joe Rogan 0:04 Thanks for being here.

Nancy Panza 0:05 Thank you for having me. Thanks for letting me come and talk.

Joe Rogan 0:08 Um, my pleasure. Uh, so, tell everybody what you do.

Nancy Panza 0:11 So, I am... Well, my day job, I'm a professor in the psychology department at Cal State Fullerton, and in my side gig, I am a forensic and police psychologist.

Joe Rogan 0:23 That is a very appropriate subject-

Nancy Panza 0:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:26 ... for the strange times we find ourselves in right now.

Nancy Panza 0:29 Indeed.

Joe Rogan 0:30 So, as you are watching all this play out, from the George Floyd murder to where we're at right now, um, w- what, what has this been like for you since this is your field of study?

Nancy Panza 0:46 It's a weird place to be and you're kind of, (sighs) uh, for me, caught in between two worlds it seems. Um, (smacks lips) I mean, my job is to take care of police officers. So, keep them healthy, keep them well, to make sure that they can do a good job doing their jobs. Um, (smacks lips) and so the first thing I see is, oof, we got a mess on our hands. Um, for me, when I see a lot of the videos that end up, you know, on, on TV, my initial reaction is, "Well, let's have a look. Is there something really to be upset about here?" And, (scoffs) well, obviously in seeing the, the video of George Floyd's murder, there's a whole lot to be upset about here. And so, you know, heartache comes from that. Um, and then my, you know, my next response is to kick in is, "Okay, we've, we've got problems on both sides." We need to n- not only figure out why such things are happening and prevent them, 'cause that's not good. Nobody wants bad policing, even the police don't want bad policing. On the other hand, how do we also take care of our officers who are out there, who now have to go out and continue doing their jobs in a really, (sighs) difficult and overwhelming environment?

Joe Rogan 1:54 Yeah, it's such a strange time because on one hand, you, you got all these people that are calling out for defunding the police, and, you know, this is... Here's a point of view that, uh, Ben Shapiro had when he talked about the protests. He said, um, he said, "Saying they're mostly peaceful protests is like saying O.J. Simpson had a mostly peaceful day when he killed Nicole Simpson 'cause he was only violent for a couple minutes. The rest of the day, he was m- it was mostly peaceful."

Nancy Panza 2:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:25 And he's like, "That's a, a good way to describe the protests." I think you could also say the same thing about the police department. The police department and police officers are mostly good people doing a good job.

Nancy Panza 2:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:38 But the problem is when one, out of all these millions of interactions, when one goes bad or there's a bad officer, people see that, they highlight that, and then they say, "This is the cops. These are the cops." I don't think that's true. I've met a lot of great police officers. I know a lot.

Nancy Panza 2:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:56 (sighs) And it's an insanely difficult job. I don't think they get paid enough. I don't think they get respected enough. I don't think they get trained well enough. Um, I had Jocko Willink on here, who's a former Navy SEAL commander, and-

Nancy Panza 3:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:08 ... his perspective is very clear. He's like, "They do not train enough." He goes, "If I was in control, they would be trained 20% of their time, 20% of their week would be spent in training."

Nancy Panza 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:17 "Deescalation drills, safety drills, how to handle things if one o- one of your partners is losing his cool. All, all, all sorts of drills that they should be doing, that they do do in the Navy SEALs, that they should be doing in the police department as well."

Nancy Panza 3:31 Yep. I listened to your, uh, your podcast with Jocko on it and I was, I was blown... Actually, I listened to it twice. (laughs) I listened to it the first time and was like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes." I loved everything that he had to say.

Joe Rogan 3:42 Well, he's a real leader.

Nancy Panza 3:43 He's so good. He's so good. And, and his idea about training was, I mean, I'm in full agreement and full... The 20% training thing would be, would be super hard, especially n- now where we are, 'cause money's going away, not coming in-

Joe Rogan 3:57 Right.

Nancy Panza 3:57 ... 'cause that would mean 20% of the force would be off training and we'd need that many more officers and that many people on duty, you know, to fill in the active ro- So, you know, uh, while that would be a dream, and I think he's right, all those skills that you need, if you're not actively, you know, if you're not-

Joe Rogan 4:13 (sniffs) .

Nancy Panza 4:13 ... actively training and keeping them up to par, they're going to, they're gonna go away.

Joe Rogan 4:17 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 4:17 They're gonna decay. But on top of what he said, the piece where I was like, "Y- yeah, but let me come in and talk with you too," (laughs) is, is that, you know, he thinks, like the warrior that he is, you know, Navy SEAL, super tough guy, talking about firearms. And he's right, the firearms training is probably not enough. But what's even more so, especially in today's world and society, is that when you look at the, um, the makeup of a police academy training, you know, first of all, it's, it's so short. And, and they do, they get field training after that for a long period of time, and so that, that's good, it balances it out. But the content of the academy, you know, by far most of that time and training is spent learning laws, learning the kind of textbook of, of what it is to be a cop and how to function. And then, the other parts, there's the physical training and the firearms training. But if you look at what happens once a police officer gets out there on the job and what they're doing, a huge percentage of it is in communicating. And there is almost none. Almost none. Um, (smacks lips) you know, the example I think of that comes to mind m- most, when I... Prior to being at Cal State Fullerton, I was a, uh, faculty member at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York. Um, and so, in the city we worked, uh, we did some trainings with the NYPD and we had a contract to do deescalation training. So when the recruits are coming through the academy, they would come over to John Jay and we would have police trainers and, and us, the psychologists would come in, and we had these wonderful actors who are, uh, trained to portray individuals with mental illness, and we did this interactive deescalation training. Um, teach them how to talk to somebody, how to... What do you say that's gonna help bring someone down as opposed to s- And it was this, you know, okay, ready? Here goes this training scenario. We pull these rookies up who are scared to death, give 'em like a block gun. Say, "Okay, go." Like wood block, not a real weapon.

Joe Rogan 6:01 Right.

Nancy Panza 6:01 You know, go to it and, and, and engage this individual. And our actors are, were brilliant and, and, and portray these, uh, individuals with mental illness wonderfully. And, you know, inevitably they'd come in hot and things, you know, screaming erupts and the, the rookie's going for their gun and we're like, "Okay, okay, okay. S- Hold up. Stop. Let's talk about what just happened." From the psychology side, we kind of explained, "Here's what's going on. Here's why that didn't work with this type of individual." The police tac- you know, would come in on the tactics side and we'd say, "Okay, rewind. Do over," and then we would run them through the scenario and we would keep stopping and starting. And this interactive, like hands-on training-... by the end of the day they were like, "I learned more today than I learned in the last (laughs) two months."

Joe Rogan 6:40 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 6:40 But we got them for one day.

Joe Rogan 6:42 Right.

Nancy Panza 6:42 Six hours, and then that's it. You know, so that whole constant training and giving the skills, not just the firearms and the tactics and the f- you know, how to use force properly, but also the communication and dealing with these stressful situations and, and distressed individuals, because that is what they do nonstop, day in and day out.

Joe Rogan 7:05 Yeah. I, I know what you're saying when you were talking about how difficult it would be to actually have them train 20% of the time.

Nancy Panza 7:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:14 But I don't think it's difficult enough that we should ignore it. I think th- I think if ... Obviously, I'm never gonna be in control, but if I was in control, I would say, "That's how it's gotta be."

Nancy Panza 7:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:23 We have to hire more people.

Nancy Panza 7:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:24 We need ... I think they need way more people, way better training, and I think there also has to be evaluations in terms of like, w- how are they dealing with stress? 'Cause it's not just how to deescalate, how to deal with a, a situation with, uh, with uh, uh, a possible criminal, but also how are you dealing with the fact that every time you go to work you might get shot?

Nancy Panza 7:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:48 You, you might not ever come home to your family. How many times do you see suicides? How many times do you see murders? How many times do you see car accidents and, uh ... All that stuff weighs on a person.

Nancy Panza 7:58 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 7:58 And all those police officers that see that stuff every day, depending entirely upon ... and that's one of the things Jocko talked about-

Nancy Panza 8:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:04 ... their psychological makeup, he talked about it with, uh, soldiers, that some soldiers can see some crazy shit and be like, "It's okay, I'm good to go."

Nancy Panza 8:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:12 And then other soldiers are like, "I'm fucked up. I don't know what to do here. I-"

Nancy Panza 8:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:16 "I have anxiety. I can't sleep. I'm a, I'm a nervous wreck."

Nancy Panza 8:20 Same thing is true for, for cops. Some folks are ... They can go through, you know, have the worst call that you could imagine, death, gore, you know, loss of a child's life. I mean, these things are, are horrific and they see it and, you know, they, they react and it's awful, but they recover and, and, and they're okay the next day. And then, you know, on the opposite hand, you've got somebody who has m- maybe a, a, a less intense or, you know, a less horrific call, and it just puts them over the edge. And, you know, from the psychology side, you know, we've studied this, we've looked at this. What i- how can we tell, is there a way we can predict, you know, what type of event, what type of person, who, who is likely to, to, to fall apart, t- to end up with, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder? C- can we tell who's likely to develop a, you know, a, a clinical syndrome later? And, and the s- the short answer is we can't.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Hm.

Nancy Panza 9:09 There are some things that, that we know, and obviously, you know, some of them are really logical. If you're in a higher state of stress, if you've already got vulnerabilities going in, you're, you know, going through a divorce at home and unhappy on the job and drinking too much outside and you've got all these other things that are already, you know, festering underneath, and then you also are put in front of that, you know, i- it's not sh- surprising that, that maybe that would push somebody over the edge into a really troubling place. But other times, you know, it, it's really hard thing to predict. And so instead, we need to be there and be on it. And there are ... I mean, there's so many things I can add in about, you know, how we do that in, in ways that we're really falling short, which is kind of my, my passion and where I am these days, in trying to do a much better job of being on, you know, what we would call officer wellness, because we've historically done a really shitty job.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Is there a standard procedure, li- when someone comes back from, say, uh, witnessing a murder? Is there a standard way that they interact with them across all police departments or is it depending upon the department and what setup the sheriff or the, the police chief h- has put in place?

Nancy Panza 10:18 Yeah. Very much depending on the department-

Joe Rogan 10:20 (laughs)

Nancy Panza 10:20 ... and what they've put in place.

Joe Rogan 10:21 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 10:21 So when it comes to like, the mental health and psychology, the, the things that we do with departments are ... It's, it's very standard these days. Like I w- I think the numbers show about 80, n- 90, sorry, (laughs) 98% of departments do a pre-employment, uh, psychological evaluation before they're hired. That's what I spend the majority of my time doing, is, is screening people who are starting the job. So that part is very normal to do. And I can tell you all about that process. Beyond that, what happens from there on out is very much up in the air, depends on the department. Some departments require a, what we would call a, a, you know, a critical incident debriefing. Um, so some of the agencies that I work with will, if, if somebody is involved or there's a, a major incident, every officer who was on scene there will come in and do a debriefing with me or with another psychologist, um, to check in afterwards. And a lot of that is just where are they, how are they in this, in this moment, are they okay to go home, are they safe?

Joe Rogan 11:20 (laughs) How do you determine that?

Nancy Panza 11:21 And education. (smacks lips) And also-

Joe Rogan 11:22 Is it just a judgment call?

Nancy Panza 11:24 It is. It's a judgment call. Um, and the ones that I've done, I would say most of the time it feels pretty clear-cut. Most of the time folks are either they're doing all right, they're a little shaken up, which is normal. I mean, anybody who experiences something life-threatening is gonna be off, off at that point. So a lot of what we do in those, in those debriefings is education. Um, I have these little handouts that I give to all the officers that go through and say, "This is what you are likely feeling right now. This is what you're likely to feel in the next couple days. And anything kinda goes." You know, w- we say, "In those first few days, whatever you're feeling is, is, is probably okay." But then over the course of the first week, we expect people to settle in and to start recovering. And if you're not, then we wanna start paying attention to the ways ... Are you still not sleeping? Are you having nightmares? Are you having flash- you know, what's going on? And, you know, again, varies by department, some of them will then also offer up to four sessions to come back and continue meeting, um, to, to see them through that kind of early adjustment phase. And then if they're still struggling at the point at the end, then we can refer them to longer term for treatment. Um, and if everything looks fine, then we say, "Okay, you know, resume duty or, or you're cleared to go back." So that, that initial meeting afterwards is us- is mandatory, at least for the departments that choose to do it.... that's a mandatory. Couple sessions afterwards are not, they're, they're if needed. And then from there, we kinda set the path, like, all good, clear, or let's carry on and keep, you know, keep working with you until you can recover.

Joe Rogan 12:59 Do you support this idea that it should be controlled locally by each individual police department or do you think there should be a nationwide mandate, like some sort of a, a s- a standard operational procedure where they, they treat everyone the same way, train everyone the same way, deal with every single murder, suicide, child death, and they have, like, a protocol that they follow so i- it's just standard across the country-

Nancy Panza 13:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:27 ... based on science?

Nancy Panza 13:29 I- I do. I think many of these things, these fundamental pieces, should be mandatory. I think pre-employment psychological evaluation is an absolute must. And, and again, most agencies do that piece. I think the critical incident debriefings are an absolute must and should always occur, and they should be mandatory 'cause that takes away the stigma. You know?

Joe Rogan 13:48 Right. Right.

Nancy Panza 13:49 No cop wants to come see the shrink.

Joe Rogan 13:50 Of course.

Nancy Panza 13:50 They see you coming-

Joe Rogan 13:51 Of course.

Nancy Panza 13:51 ... and they're like- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:52 Right. Of course.

Nancy Panza 13:52 ... "I'm out of here." Like, "No, keep the shrink away."

Joe Rogan 13:55 But they're probably-

Nancy Panza 13:55 Because-

Joe Rogan 13:55 ... trying to deal with it their own way.

Nancy Panza 13:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:58 And then somebody that they don't even know-

Nancy Panza 14:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:00 ... who comes in and starts probing and asking questions, and they see some guy in a suit-

Nancy Panza 14:04 Yep.

Joe Rogan 14:04 ... maybe he's never even seen a dead body-

Nancy Panza 14:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:07 ... and you're like, "Hey, shut the fuck up, man."

Nancy Panza 14:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:09 "I know what I'm doing. Let me just go back out there and go to work."

Nancy Panza 14:11 And the other things that feed into that are, I mean, obviously, we know law enforcement, just like military, the culture is very-

Joe Rogan 14:17 Yes.

Nancy Panza 14:17 ... "I am in control."

Joe Rogan 14:18 Right.

Nancy Panza 14:19 "I got this."

Joe Rogan 14:19 Right.

Nancy Panza 14:20 "I don't need your help. I am tough. I am..." You know?

Joe Rogan 14:22 And supported by each other.

Nancy Panza 14:24 Yep, "And we are-"

Joe Rogan 14:24 And it's-

Nancy Panza 14:24 ... "each other."

Joe Rogan 14:25 Right.

Nancy Panza 14:25 Mm-hmm. And so that, that culture doesn't make it inviting to come and talk to a, you know, a shrink or an outside-

Joe Rogan 14:32 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 14:32 ... person. Um, you know, and, and the other part is that officers are really fearful of losing their jobs.

Joe Rogan 14:39 Right.

Nancy Panza 14:39 You know, having their livelihood taken away, that's a huge deal. And depending on the psychologist, if they're seeing somebody who is not familiar with law enforcement culture or who is, you know, real quick to judge and to jump on the, "No, no, we can't have this person out there with a badge and a gun."

Joe Rogan 14:56 Sure.

Nancy Panza 14:56 You know, there's a really delicate line there. You obviously don't want somebody who's unstable to be out there, we wanna take care of them and get them healed before they're... But at the same time, this is someone's livelihood, this is their, this is their being, this is who they are. And to take that away haphazardly or carelessly or needlessly is, is really scary.

Joe Rogan 15:16 Sure.

Nancy Panza 15:16 And so they, they really do need to have that front. So that's why, you know, like the mandatory debriefing is so important-

Joe Rogan 15:23 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 15:23 ... because if it's, "Oh, we're gonna pick you and you and you, the rest of you guys are fine," then they've been singled out-

Joe Rogan 15:29 Well, it's, it's also-

Nancy Panza 15:30 ... and in the spotlight.

Joe Rogan 15:30 ... it's a subjective judgment call.

Nancy Panza 15:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:33 So that's where it gets weird. I mean, and I can make a comparison to, uh, refereeing in fights. Some referees stop fights, where other referees would let the fights go on. Like-

Nancy Panza 15:42 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 15:42 ... and it's really ... And it makes people so angry when they stop a fight quickly. If someone comes in and says, "This guy's not ready, he can't go back on the force," and the guy's like, "What are you talking about? I'm fine."

Nancy Panza 15:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:52 And maybe he is fine, and maybe the guy just has a weird sense of people. And so like when you have judgment calls like that, like what criteria are they using? Are they using just their own personal opinion? Do they have to fit a, a set of guidelines? Like what ... When they say, "This guy's not fit to go back on the street, he's seen too much, he's too shaken up by this murder scene," like how do th- how do they make that call?

Nancy Panza 16:18 So it kinda depends on what scenario you're making that decision. So there, and there's two different levels that are most likely. So the, the debriefing is usually ... unless the person is completely shaken. Um-

Joe Rogan 16:32 Okay. Let's, let's, let's ru- let's do a scenario.

Nancy Panza 16:34 Okay.

Joe Rogan 16:34 Let's say guy pulls some guy over, um, the guy, uh, reaches for a gun, shoots at the officer, the officer shoots the person, kills them. You know, big investigation, news, the whole deal, the guy's on television, they show the body cam footage. And then this guy has to do an evaluation and then go back to work again. How would one decide whether or not that guy's okay to go back to work?

Nancy Panza 17:00 Probably gonna look at multiple factors. Mental state, basic mental state is our starting point.

Joe Rogan 17:04 And how do, how do they make that call?

Nancy Panza 17:05 So questions, um, in the debriefing, we're unlikely to pull into our bag of tests, which, you know, in the other scenarios, big psych evals, we're gonna dig into our tests, that's what we do as psychologists.

Joe Rogan 17:15 When you say tests, you know, like, fMRIs or anything like that, you know?

Nancy Panza 17:17 No, like the, like MMPI, let me throw out other letters.

Joe Rogan 17:20 What is that?

Nancy Panza 17:20 Like the personality tests and tests that show different levels-

Joe Rogan 17:24 Okay.

Nancy Panza 17:24 ... of, you know, of pathology or clinical issues and problems, um, anxiety, depression, you know, bodily dysfunction.

Joe Rogan 17:31 You do-

Nancy Panza 17:32 All those things.

Joe Rogan 17:32 ... a physical examination, check their heart rate, blood pressure?

Nancy Panza 17:36 I wouldn't. As a psychologist, I would not.

Joe Rogan 17:37 Okay.

Nancy Panza 17:37 So what I'm looking at is their mental state and just basically their overall functioning. So are they, are they able to go about their daily activities, you know, and, and if this is right after the scene, I won't, I won't know this yet. If it's right after the scene, I will be going and sitting down talking with them. Um, if they wanna talk about what happened and kinda run through the scenario, we have them do that. That can be very telling if they're comfortable sharing that, that detail. Are they able to describe it? Are they able to get through it without breaking down? Are they able to talk, you know, sort of g- clearly, even emotionally is, is expected and, and fine. In fact, somebody who has zero emotion after that, I would be like, "What, you know, what's happening?"

Joe Rogan 18:18 Right.

Nancy Panza 18:18 "What are you feeling?" But in that-

Joe Rogan 18:21 (puffs lips)

Nancy Panza 18:21 ... you know, immediate part after, it's really just looking to see what's going on, what's happening. Are they able to function? Are they able to safely go home? Are they having any thoughts about hurting themselves? Are they, you know, are, are, are they feeling like they are, you know, kinda losing their mind? Anything that just is, is completely out in left field.What we often do is, i- i- we're gonna go on the scene only if the agency wants someone to check in right there. I more often than not see them a day later. Usually it's, uh, our rule here is within the first 48 hours. Um, so I'll see them within the first couple of days afterwards, and they'll come in. And at that point, they've been able to get through at least one night of sleep. I can see if they're sleeping, if they're eating, if they've spoken to anyone, are they having any major, really strong emotional reactions. And so we're kind of looking to see what are you feeling, what are you thinking, what's happening, and, and is it kind of within the realm of what we would expect? And do you need any additional supports right now while you're in this sort of immediate short term after- aftermath? The only times that really I'm likely to say, "You're not ready to go back," are the, the ones that stand out are when, number one, the officer, him or herself, says, "I cannot do this right now. I, I need to-"

Joe Rogan 19:36 How many times have you seen that?

Nancy Panza 19:38 It's rare. It's rare. I, I, I mean, maybe four times. (sighs)

Joe Rogan 19:45 In how many years?

Nancy Panza 19:48 (sighs) Um, s- well, total years I've been doing this for about 15, but more recently out here in the last few is kind of what I'm thinking of, since I've been doing more then. Um, you know, uh, out of, out of a few hundred. Um, so it's not.

Joe Rogan 20:01 And so, uh, what is the protocol? Like, how, how is that handled? Like, say, if there's an officer that can't go back, they say, "I just can't handle this right now."

Nancy Panza 20:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:08 Maybe they see a horrific child murder or something like that.

Nancy Panza 20:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:11 Like, what, what do they do to get back on track and what, uh, what assistance does the force offer them?

Nancy Panza 20:18 So the odds are that even without... in, in that scenario, if they've been involved in a shooting, um, and especially being the shooter, they're likely to be on an admin leave anyway, while everything's being reviewed. 'Cause the agency side, you know, the investigations and all the procedures and, and checks are going on. So they're probably not going back out to the street right away anyway, while all of that stuff gets cleared. Um, so, so that's a good thing. They get a few days to, you know, get their wits about them while they're, uh, you know, kind of calming down and recovering from that. So, you know, odds are they're not right, jumping right back out anyway. Um, but what happens in, in that time when, you know, if we say, "Okay, somebody's just not ready," we usually say, "Let's check back in in a week or two weeks," depending on, you know, we... I usually will discuss it with them and say, "You know what? Let's, let's meet again in a week." Take the time and then I'll check, uh, you know, check back in with the agency.

Joe Rogan 21:07 So they're just on their own?

Nancy Panza 21:08 We need more time here. To, to-

Joe Rogan 21:10 When you say time, just leave them alone, let them figure it out themselves?

Nancy Panza 21:13 Yeah. Well, l- let them go. If they want to come in and continue... i- if it's an urgent matter, the person's feeling like they might hurt themselves, we're gonna continue to see and support and do whatever we need to do to take care of that person.

Joe Rogan 21:24 That is a giant issue too.

Nancy Panza 21:26 Oh, uh, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 21:26 I mean, suicide amongst police officers is a huge issue.

Nancy Panza 21:29 Huge. Although, it's much more likely to happen from somebody who has not recently been seen.

Joe Rogan 21:37 What do you mean by that?

Nancy Panza 21:37 You know, these, the suicides that happen are the ones that are out there, they're still functioning on the job. We have no idea what's going on because nobody is checking in on that person's mental health.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Okay. So it's not after seeing some horrific incident or being, uh, a part of a shooting.

Nancy Panza 21:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:52 It's just the overall stress of the job.

Nancy Panza 21:55 Right. That is one of the biggest problems out there. I feel like we do an okay job having these debriefings right afterwards 'cause we can monitor, we check back in periodically, and we keep touching, touching base until we're feeling, you know, comfortable that the person's good. We also, in those debriefings, get to educate them and say, "Hey, here are..." You know, I give them those flyers and say, "Look, here's what we know. Here's some good things to do. Here's some bad things to do. Here's what it might feel like. If any of these things are off, here's my information. Call me (laughs) and come back in."

Joe Rogan 22:26 Is it a real problem with cops just not wanting to help? Because they're, because they're, you know-

Nancy Panza 22:31 The fear.

Joe Rogan 22:32 The, the, the fear also and they're, they're tough guys.

Nancy Panza 22:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:35 A lot of them.

Nancy Panza 22:35 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 22:35 And tough girls.

Nancy Panza 22:37 They're tough.

Joe Rogan 22:37 They're like, "I got it."

Nancy Panza 22:38 They, yes. I've, I've got this. I mean, the whole job is about being in control.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 22:43 Every scene you roll up on, you are in control. That command presence is necessary-

Joe Rogan 22:48 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 22:48 ... to be an officer. And so to not be in control, uh, it just feels terrible. Um, and I mean, for anybody, for any human, it's hard to make the call to a therapist and say, "I need a little help."

Joe Rogan 23:00 Right.

Nancy Panza 23:01 Anybody who's made... who's thought, "You know what? I'm not doing so well right now. I really feel like I could use..." Picking up that phone and calling to seek help is a big deal. So for a police officer-

Joe Rogan 23:10 There's a stigma, right?

Nancy Panza 23:11 Yeah. There's a stigma. There's a, "Do I really need this?" It just is hard to pick up and-

Joe Rogan 23:15 You don't want to be the person that wants help all the time. Like, "Hey, figure it out yourself."

Nancy Panza 23:19 Right. And can this person really help me?

Joe Rogan 23:21 Right, right.

Nancy Panza 23:21 Who's this going to be? How do I find a therapist?

Joe Rogan 23:23 There's a lot of factors.

Nancy Panza 23:24 That's the most frequent question I get from my friends and family and people who are like, "I'm thinking I might need to see someone, like, how do I go about doing that?"

Joe Rogan 23:30 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 23:31 Get that question all the time.

Joe Rogan 23:32 So-

Nancy Panza 23:33 So yeah, for cops, it's even bigger 'cause that whole control thing.

Joe Rogan 23:36 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 23:36 And also, like I said before, their job is on the line.

Joe Rogan 23:39 Of course. So for these cops that are in that situation, so when they say, "Look, I need to take some time off," you, you basically just leave them alone and say, "If you want these resources, here they are"? Or do they... I mean, is... what-

Nancy Panza 23:55 Again, it's gonna vary by department.

Joe Rogan 23:57 It varies. That- isn't that kind of crazy that it does vary by department?

Nancy Panza 23:59 Most... Yeah, it drives me nuts. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:01 And is... has this discussion been had, like, nationwide?

Nancy Panza 24:05 Oh, there's, there's so many good things and pieces of advice and recommendation out there. One of the things that's kind of painful right now is, you know, every morning I get a, a news recap from the International Association of Chiefs of Police. They send this email out to all the, all the members of there, and they have, you know, they have psychological services group. And so I get these updates and I, I, I usually just kind of pass them over, but lately, with all the police reform, so just headlines from around the country. And the piecemeal randomness of, of this city is doing this, and this city is doing this, and this city is doing this, and this city... and it's all over the place, you know, same, that's driving me nuts.

Joe Rogan 24:44 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 24:44 'Cause I'm like, there's already been groups that have studied and reported and told us what we need to do to help the, the, the world of policing rise up and do better. We've-

Joe Rogan 24:55 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 24:55 That information's out there from, from wonderful, brilliant people who've come together and have laid it out for us.It's there, but yet we, we don't have that national standard. Each state has certain, you know, uh, uh, most states have a group. Like in California, it's the California POST, um, you know, it's the Police Officer Standards and Training. So they set all the rules for, um, training requi- minimal training requirements for all the departments in California. So all the agencies, police agencies here in this state are, you know, need to comply with all of the POST recommendations. But they're all, you know, it's a minimum standard and our POST, California POST, is kind of heads and tails ahead of most of the country. Some, some states don't actually have that organization. Most do have something similar to like what we have. So they do set some standards, but there's so many things that are not included in that. Um-

Joe Rogan 25:50 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 25:51 And, and so it is a bit, y- you know, random. It's hard, I think, to make a one-size-fits-all, everybody must do this, because if you think about it, I think there's about 18,000 different police agencies in the US, and I think I read about 50% of those have 10 or fewer full-time officers. So, you know, when you've got podunk, tiny little town in the middle of, you know, the Midwest in a very rural county that, that's, you know, that's a whole lot different than LAPD.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Right.

Nancy Panza 26:22 So it's, it's hard to have everybody on the same standard and the same expectations when we've got a lot of different makeups for a lot of different departments. That said, there are some fundamentals that I think every department should be held to. Um, and, and one of those is the debriefings after an incident, and the one that, that almost no one is doing that's been talked about for a while is regular mental wellness checks. You know, at this point, you get a psych eval when you're hired or before you're hired, and if you're in a critical incident, you may or may not get one. More, more are starting to do that. And then the only other time you're gonna be required to see the psychologist is if you have messed up and you're in trouble and you're referred for a fitness for duty evaluation. And at that point, your job is on the line. Someone is saying that they think you're not fit for duty, and that is a scary evaluation to have to be a, a part of. 'Cause then you're going in and, and yeah, if the psychologist judges and decides that you are not able to go back out, well then you're, then you're off duty until you can fix whatever that problem may be.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Right. Well, uh, also, just for the public's health and welfare, it's important to do that.

Nancy Panza 27:34 Sure.

Joe Rogan 27:35 I mean, there clearly are a lot of police officers that are unfit for duty. How, how do we stop what happened in Minneapolis? How do we stop that from, from happening or at least mitigate it?

Nancy Panza 27:49 So I mean, again, I, I see everything through my lens as a psychologist-

Joe Rogan 27:53 Yes.

Nancy Panza 27:53 ... as a police psychologist. So I'm sure there are things beyond my realm that, that also answer this question. But for me, the things that I think we could be doing different that would really make a difference are the regular annual mental wellness checks. If, i- th- from my perspective, when I look at people like, you know, Derek Chauvin, the, the officer that, that murdered George Floyd, and we see what happened there, he... I would say, I would be willing to guess, and I, I don't know him, I've never met him, I don't know m- much about his career other than what I've read in the news and, and whatnot, police officers that get to that place become that.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Right.

Nancy Panza 28:33 They're not that when they're hired.

Joe Rogan 28:35 Right.

Nancy Panza 28:35 To get hired as a cop, you have to go through what often takes a year-long application process where they are digging and poking into every aspect of your background, your life.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Let's be clear though. That's in some places.

Nancy Panza 28:47 In-

Joe Rogan 28:47 In other places, it's pretty easy.

Nancy Panza 28:49 It, again, smaller departments that don't have-

Joe Rogan 28:51 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 28:51 ... the resources, probably-

Joe Rogan 28:52 Right.

Nancy Panza 28:52 ... probably so.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 28:54 And then-

Joe Rogan 28:54 I won't, I shouldn't say pretty easy. In comparison.

Nancy Panza 28:57 In comparison, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:58 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 28:58 But the vast majority of departments have a pretty, you know, have a, have a similar process-

Joe Rogan 29:02 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 29:03 ... in that you're gonna go through the application, you have to pass a written test, there's gonna be a, a background investigation-

Joe Rogan 29:09 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 29:09 ... which really I think is a hugely powerful key part, i- that it should be a well-done background investigation. Um, you know, they're talking to people who you know, people from your past, your landlord, your ex-wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend-

Joe Rogan 29:21 They have the resources-

Nancy Panza 29:22 ... your whoever.

Joe Rogan 29:22 ... to do that for every single candidate?

Nancy Panza 29:24 They do. Now, some agencies take far more care than others.

Joe Rogan 29:27 Right.

Nancy Panza 29:28 Um, the, the wide variety of people that I see that have passed their backgrounds, some agencies I work for send me the most amazingly clean candidates and others that are trying to hire a lot, uh, less squeaky clean. But they've, they've all gone through and it is, you know, gone through this background. They also do a polygraph. They do social media checks. They, you know, they make you list all your tattoos and you know, so they're, they're looking for... And if there is somebody who is just flagrantly racist, has, you know, you know, been out there toting white supremacy, like, they're gonna, they're gonna see that somewhere in that digging around.

Joe Rogan 30:03 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 30:03 So the, the, the blatant racist folks are likely weeded out during a good background process. Let's say maybe they're not as openly 'cause, you know, we all know that people know better than to admit to such things most of the time these days and it could be more subtle. So at that point, what comes next, you've got oral interviews with, you know, police administrators, um, a polygraph, you know, coming along in there. And once they pass all of that, that's when they come to the last, they get their conditional offer of employment. So they're basically like, "As long as you get through these last two steps, you're, you're good to go for the academy." And the last two steps are the medical evaluation and the psych eval. So by the time we get them, they have been heavily vetted, poked around, you know, and, and, and, and looked through in their past, and we get a, we get a pretty clean group of people. But then we get to do more digging and we get to ask questions at this point that they're not able to ask before, so about mental health and background and psychological treatment and history.And so, you know, by the ... And then if they get through these evaluations, then they go on to the academy. So for us, that vetting process, that psych eval, is a really important place. And I've had a lot of conversations with other psychologists, you know, in the past few months, like, "What are we missing?" I've had ... I, I taught a workshop a couple months ago for other police psychologists on, you know, some of the things we do in these pre-employments and had someone say, "How do we screen out the cops who kill?" And I said, "We can't." (laughs) And that was not a good answer. Uh, that we can't. We, we can't because we have to ... What we're doing here is predicting the future, right? We're, we're saying, "How do we know who is going to be that person who does that later?" Predicting the future's incredibly hard. Figuring out who may be un- uh, you know, subtly racist or biased is also incredibly hard. So y- that said, we do a whole lot of things. We've got our psychological test that we give. We ask a lot of crafty questions and we dig as deep as we can to try to, again, weed out anyone who we think could potentially become that person down the road who could be a cop who kills or who, you know, is racist and biased and is treating people improperly. So, uh, you know, that's one big thing that we wanna be very cautious and make sure we're doing a good job of screening up front. But I would say, um ... And so much more to say about the tests and the screening, but gets really nerdy and, and detailed. I would say that the officers who end up having the most problems are the ones who, once they get on, are in a department where that is the culture. That is, that, that, that those types of behaviors are acceptable. And that's bad.

Joe Rogan 32:42 So as a young officer, they learn at that... Have you ever seen the documentary, The 7-5?

Nancy Panza 32:47 I have not.

Joe Rogan 32:48 It's a great documentary about Michael Dowd-

Nancy Panza 32:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:51 ... who has been a guest on the podcast, who was a ... He was a terrible cop. And talks openly about how he was corrupted and how his first day on the force, he, he witnessed corruption and was told to shut his mouth.

Nancy Panza 33:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:03 And, and further went on to become a drug dealer and robbing drug dealers and just ... It's a crazy documentary. You would enjoy it.

Nancy Panza 33:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:11 Particularly from a psychological perspective, 'cause he's talking about it after having served time.

Nancy Panza 33:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:17 Um, just showing the, the images from the time and telling the stories. It's ... The culture of each individual department is different.

Nancy Panza 33:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:27 And some are great. There's a great video of, uh, Floyd- uh, Flint, Michigan where, um, these police officers, after the George Floyd death, they show up for these protests and tell these people that are protesting, "We're gonna march with you." Like, "We're a part of this community too."

Nancy Panza 33:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:45 Like, "We are, we're your friends." Like, "We are police officers but we are not the person who did that thing."

Nancy Panza 33:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:49 "And we wouldn't do that thing."

Nancy Panza 33:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:51 "And we, we wanna show you that we support you and that we're here to help."

Nancy Panza 33:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:54 "That's what, that's what really we want." And it's beautiful.

Nancy Panza 33:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:56 It's so cool to see them all march together and they're hugging. Um, that's what we want, right?

Nancy Panza 34:02 It is.

Joe Rogan 34:02 But-

Nancy Panza 34:03 And, and I think that one of the biggest things when we ... You know, how do we prevent these, these issues is we need to look at the individual officer level. But-

Joe Rogan 34:12 We need to look at the culture.

Nancy Panza 34:13 ... I think, I think that is very limited because I think the racist angry cop who kills has developed that way over time.

Joe Rogan 34:20 Right.

Nancy Panza 34:20 And I think one of the pieces is the culture in the department. Is this something that's acceptable? Is there corruption in that department? And so certainly better oversight and tracking is a really important thing, um, you know, that, that should happen. But the other piece and the one that, that, that I focus more on from my end is the wellness. You know, is this somebody who is burning out?

Joe Rogan 34:40 Right.

Nancy Panza 34:40 Is this somebody who has gone into a, a dangerous place, you know, psychologically, that they started out and they were fine when we screened them up front, but, you know, over 5 or 10 or 15 years, they've seen so much. And, you know, there's some won- uh, there ... Things happen in your brain that change the way you s- think and see and perceive the world when you do this type of work.

Joe Rogan 35:01 Right.

Nancy Panza 35:01 And when you get to a place where those, where the- those processes have, have really taken their toll and somebody has gone down this kinda dark path, it's hard to come out of that. And the, and the way they react to the world and the individuals that they see on a daily basis is going to be very different than what they looked like when they were hired. So if we're not regularly checking in and seeing who might be at risk for going to that dark place, that bitter and angry place, you know, we're not able to catch them before something happens. And that's where, you know, for me, my, my big platform is at regular wellness checks. I'm not the first one to come up with this i- idea (laughs) . It's been suggested by task forces and study groups and people who know a whole lot more than I do for, for a while now. But in reading, there was a wonderful, um, uh, uh, report to Congress that was put out, um, by the COPS, which is Community Oriented Policing Services. So they sent this like 60-page report to Congress March of 2019 and described in detail, you know, all the things that we should be doing to pay attention to officer wellness. One of which was we seem to think that some regular checkups would probably help but the problem is no one's doing 'em and we have literally zero research on, you know, what, what ... Are they helpful? Can they prevent this? And I believe they are. So my, you know, my next big thing is to go and explore and, and, and do that research so that we can show, hey, this does help. We can, we can- if we're touching base and we're getting people in, then we can catch the problems as they develop and before they become a major problem where someone's interacting with the community and they go awry and do something awful. Let's take care of them along the way and catch the problems before they, um, you know, before they become behaviors that are problematic.

Joe Rogan 36:53 There seems to be a lot of discussion now about police brutality, but there's not a lot of discussion about the psychological troubles and the, the really ... the difficult path of being a police officer-

Nancy Panza 37:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:08 ... and appreciation for the people that have to do that job.... um, all this defunding the police talk scares the shit out of me-

Nancy Panza 37:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:16 ... because, uh, I see what's going on right now in New York City and it's a goddamn shooting gallery. It's crazy. And the reason why is because the police officers have no trust in the mayor. They wanna quit. They don't feel like they get any respect. They feel like they, they've all been lumped in with this one murderous cop from Minneapolis-

Nancy Panza 37:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:38 ... now they're all bad cops and there's a license to call them bad cops, scream terrible things at them when they've done nothing wrong, when they're just there to protect and serve. A lot of 'em are good people.

Nancy Panza 37:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:49 The v- the vast majority. So when you're seeing this giant uptick in murders in New York Ci- City and giant uptick in shootings and then you still have that dipshit of a mayor calling for the defunding of the police, like, my God. Like, what, w- I, I know so much of the things they say are just political because they just wanna appeal to their base.

Nancy Panza 38:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:09 And there's so many people out there that have this very narrow-minded perspective. They just have blinders on. And their idea... It's like racial justice, social justice, defund the police. It's just like this mantra that they have to say with no depth to it. They don't understand the consequences of saying such a thing or implementing such a thing. Now we're seeing a call for police action because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of community groups, a lot of people that are community leaders that are in these communities that are just e- experiencing unprecedented gun violence and crime.

Nancy Panza 38:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:43 And now they're saying p- we gotta do something about this. So they're trying to reinstate some of these policies that they had pulled before. I'm hoping that through this, what we have talked about with training and with, uh, funding the police more instead of defunding the police, train them better, fund them more. We, you obviously need police. This idea that you don't need police. Are, are criminals just gonna go away? Like, is crime gonna go away? You know, we have a problem.

Nancy Panza 39:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:12 We have an enormous number of people, and out of that enormous number of people, there is a certain percentage of them that will victimize other people. They will steal. They will kill. They w- And if they don't get caught, then you develop a culture of crime.

Nancy Panza 39:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:26 And then you develop a, a thing where you, you, you basically have what's going on in Mexico where the cartels have more power than the police.

Nancy Panza 39:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:36 Which is a terrible situation. If you have that in individual locations like in New York City, if all of a sudden, these criminal gangs, these, these criminal gangs develop more gun power, more, more support of the community, they have more people than police officers, you've got a giant problem.

Nancy Panza 39:53 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:53 And the, the actual peaceful citizens are the ones that are gonna be in trouble. And all those people that are out there protesting that think they're immune from it because they're the ones saying "defund the police," hey, man, they'll fucking rob you too.

Nancy Panza 40:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:05 They'll shoot you too. Like you don't understand humans. And you don't understand violence.

Nancy Panza 40:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:09 And so this utopian world that they're trying to push, like defund the police, we're just gonna, we're gonna refund, w- we're gonna put that money into the community and everything's gonna be fine. Eh. It's not gonna be fine. You need to fund the police more. You need to train the police better. We need more oversight. And we need to recognize that this is a time where everybody's gotta come together on this. And we gotta figure out what's wrong, fix what's wrong, recognize that there's some problems. But you can't blame all cops.

Nancy Panza 40:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:35 And you can't say defund the police 'cause that's nonsense. That, this, that is a, a silly, uh, uh, l- like a version of life that doesn't... It's not real.

Nancy Panza 40:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:45 You need good cops, better cops. Are you saying we need to get rid of bad cops? Yes, definitely. I think everybody agrees with that. How do you do that? That's where the question starts.

Nancy Panza 40:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:54 And training them more. Like this idea that you can't spend 20% of the time training them. Well, if you did spend 20% of the time training them, and there was a lot less crime because of it, and the interactions with, with people were much better, wouldn't that just be overall better? Is that an impossible task? I mean, h- how much money goes into the police department? You're telling me you can't add 20% to that and train them more? I s- I bet you can.

Nancy Panza 41:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:20 And I bet you could find it financially beneficial. I w- I would see overall if you could reduce crime that way and reduce the animosity between citizens and the police, wouldn't that be better for everybody?

Nancy Panza 41:33 It would. (laughs) And I agree, I agree with, with you. I mean, on the defunding thing, you know, I think, and you've had other people say this too, and y- you know this, I'm not saying anything amil- amazing here, that like it means different things to different people.

Joe Rogan 41:46 Right.

Nancy Panza 41:47 And I wholeheartedly agree. The folks who think defunding means like just get rid of 'em, like that, that, that's silly. What's your plan B? What, what do you do?

Joe Rogan 41:55 They don't-

Nancy Panza 41:55 That's-

Joe Rogan 41:55 I don't think they really mean that.

Nancy Panza 41:56 I don't, yeah, I don't understand-

Joe Rogan 41:58 I think they're saying it.

Nancy Panza 41:58 ... what happens next, and I haven't heard anybody articulate so then what. And again th-

Joe Rogan 42:02 There is no then what. That's why.

Nancy Panza 42:04 Those-

Joe Rogan 42:04 No one has a then what.

Nancy Panza 42:05 Those are the, the emails I get that talk the headlines. I saw one yesterday or the day before that in Minneapolis now there are groups of citizens banding together, armed citizens banding together to patrol the streets for crime, and I thought, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 42:17 Exactly.

Nancy Panza 42:19 Oh, boy.

Joe Rogan 42:19 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 42:19 That's a shit show waiting to happen-

Joe Rogan 42:21 That's a shit show waiting to happen.

Nancy Panza 42:21 ... 'cause then you're gonna have community members shooting people, and then they're charged with, i- it's...

Joe Rogan 42:25 They're charged with murder. Yeah.

Nancy Panza 42:26 It's a horrif-

Joe Rogan 42:27 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 42:27 Just a horrific thought.

Joe Rogan 42:28 (laughs)

Nancy Panza 42:28 And I can't quite imagine, like, that... So, I, I completely understand the, the, the anger and the frustration 'cause i- you're right, we don't need bad cops. There's nothing worse than, you know, the person you call to protect you and to help you when you're in a, an emergency doing the wrong thing and, and doing harm.

Joe Rogan 42:45 Right.

Nancy Panza 42:45 You know, that, we, we don't need or want that. And I wholeheartedly agree that more training and, and the right type of training and, and spending that time, because I also think that the training gives you access to see where people are.

Joe Rogan 42:59 Yes.

Nancy Panza 42:59 And if they are on a good path or if they are that problematic person. All those things-

Joe Rogan 43:02 Oh, you see what kind of character they have too-

Nancy Panza 43:04 R-

Joe Rogan 43:04 ... if you test them during this training.

Nancy Panza 43:06 So, if we're still, if we're seeing them on a regular basis and pulling them out and giving them the tools that they need, then, then absolutely I think that is an exceptional thing to do. That was part of what your, your podcast with Jocko just-

Joe Rogan 43:18 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 43:18 ... blew me away with, you know, the way he talked about... You know, and the other thing that, that sort of has gotten lost is this whole idea of, you know, the interaction with the community, with community-oriented policing. Um, you know, and it's, it's exactly what Jocko was talking about when he was talking about being overseas and I think he was talking about Petraeus and the order of, you know, you don't just roll up in your tank and cruise through. You stop, and you talk, and you humanize yourself, and you engage with these, you know, with the folks here, um, and you let them know that you're, you're here to protect and to serve, and you connect with them. And that helps both the community citizens and the soldiers. That's the same thing that we're wanting here at home in this country, that, that your police are supposed to be your supporters and your resources and, and the people that you trust and are connected to, and that is what community-oriented policing is. It's not a new idea.

Joe Rogan 44:11 Right.

Nancy Panza 44:11 It's been around for decades, but we somehow still don't have that going on now. It's still, well, what seems like everything in society is now, it's us versus them. You know, it's the police versus the community instead of we are a community together, and we need to work with each other to, you know, to, to keep this place safe and to understand what the biggest problems are, what are the citizens' concerns. And it isn't easy to do. It's not an easy thing to do, but it works.

Joe Rogan 44:40 Yeah. Um, I go to a, a tactical range where they, uh, teach you how to shoot handguns. And, uh, the guy who teaches me was telling me, "You would be stunned at how inept some of these cops are that come here." He goes, "They literally barely know how to shoot a gun." And I wouldn't believe him except I've seen so many cops that are so fat and so sloppy, and I'm like, "How are you gonna defend yourself?" Like y- y- the idea of you serving and protecting, like, dude, if someone throws you on the ground, you're not even getting up. Like, how does that happen? How do they not have standards for y- like, being able to shoot a gun, knowing how to handle it properly, being accurate, being consistent with your training, and also physical fitness? Like, that's... The job of a police officer is dealing occasionally with violent criminals. When you have no capacity to defend yourself, how are you able to help people? Your only he- like, if you're in a situation where there, something turns physical, if you have no ability to defend yourself physically other than firearms-

Nancy Panza 45:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:53 ... y- a, a, a situation that could be deescalated turns into a violent encounter because you have to shoot someone.

Nancy Panza 46:00 So, a couple things that come to mind. So, y- you know, imagine that police officers do get annual firearms training. They do get a, have to pass, in most places, an annual physical fitness test. And you're saying, you know, already you're seeing-

Joe Rogan 46:14 How is that possible?

Nancy Panza 46:15 ... you're seeing people who are out of shape and overweight and physically not in great condition, and you're seeing people who can't shoot well. But yet those are regular, there are regular firearms trainings, annual firearms trainings, and there are-

Joe Rogan 46:26 Everywhere?

Nancy Panza 46:26 ... regular physical fitness tests.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Everywhere, though?

Nancy Panza 46:28 Um, most states have a minimum inf- initial training, and, uh, again, i- it, there's so much variety that I'm sure not everywhere.

Joe Rogan 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 46:35 But most departments have annual, you know, service that you, y- inservice training you gotta go through and do. And so, if we're still seeing that, people who are out of shape yet they've passed a physical fitness test and who can't shoot but are p- Imagine their mental health, imagine what that looks like.

Joe Rogan 46:51 Right.

Nancy Panza 46:52 And there is no annual mental health training, mental health check-in. And I promise you that the job erodes that over time, so just-

Joe Rogan 47:00 Oh, yeah.

Nancy Panza 47:00 ... if, if the things we can actually see, (laughs) that the shooting isn't on par and the physical health isn't on par, the one we can't see, what's going on on the inside, imagine how messy that might be.

Joe Rogan 47:10 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 47:10 And there's nothing. We have no oversight and no regular check-ins there. So, that's, that's one thing that sort of stands out as like... But, but imagine that.

Joe Rogan 47:18 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 47:19 Um, you know, the other thing is firearms training, obviously it is super important if you're going to carry a weapon to be able to use it and to use it well, but it's also not something that you're going to encounter on a regular basis on the job. There are officers who go through their entire career without ever pulling a weapon.

Joe Rogan 47:37 Well, that's great.

Nancy Panza 47:38 Right? That is great. And when you do, it, it should be few and far between because there are other, other ways to manage situations. There are... You know, that's lethal force, and then we've got a variety of, of, you know, non-lethal force, whether it's something hand, you know, physical, hand, uh, you know, hand-to-hand kind of thing-

Joe Rogan 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 47:56 ... or whether it's a taser or baton or whatever else they may be using or having on their, you know, their tool belt. So, there are, there are other options there. So, hopefully, you know, the, the continuum is, is set from verbal, deescalation, communication. When that doesn't work and it's still a danger, then you, you know, there are certain criteria. And, and obviously officers are taught their continuum of force and what needs to be necessary to move up that level-... with deadly force, you know, or lethal force being the highest. So, i- i- it's so rare that, to me, there's so much else that comes before that, that if we're doing a good job, that almost is never an issue, because these other tools work better.

Joe Rogan 48:45 Wait a minute. What's almost never an issue?

Nancy Panza 48:47 Having to sh-

Joe Rogan 48:47 Being able to use a weapon?

Nancy Panza 48:48 Having to shoot someone. Having to get to where you're breaking a strap and you're pulling your weapon and you're firing at someone. That should... I, I mean, that is a, that is the last, last, last... It doesn't happen on a daily basis.

Joe Rogan 49:01 But isn't that entirely dependent-

Nancy Panza 49:03 It's-

Joe Rogan 49:03 ... upon what, where you're at and what, what kind of situation? I mean, all across the country, there are situations where cops have to pull their guns and have to use them.

Nancy Panza 49:10 There are, but they're not as frequent as you think.

Joe Rogan 49:12 But they're happening every day.

Nancy Panza 49:14 Probably somewhere every day-

Joe Rogan 49:16 Yes, but-

Nancy Panza 49:16 ... but not every day in every officer's life.

Joe Rogan 49:17 Right.

Nancy Panza 49:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:18 But if it's you-

Nancy Panza 49:19 If it's you, you need to know.

Joe Rogan 49:19 If you're that officer, you gotta be ready.

Nancy Panza 49:21 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:22 Like, this idea-

Nancy Panza 49:23 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:23 ... that that's not im- important. It s- it should be of critical importance.

Nancy Panza 49:27 Not that it's not important, but that there are so many other things that need to also be in place-

Joe Rogan 49:32 Yes.

Nancy Panza 49:33 ... because if these other skills are in place-

Joe Rogan 49:36 Right.

Nancy Panza 49:36 ... if you are a master, you know, they like to call it verbal judo (laughs) , if you can, if you can talk someone down, if you are a master at de-escalation, you are never gonna need these other tools. Maybe not never.

Joe Rogan 49:48 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 49:48 But you are very rarely gonna need any, you know, the less lethal force or the least lethal force-

Joe Rogan 49:53 Yes.

Nancy Panza 49:53 ... because you are-

Joe Rogan 49:54 Okay.

Nancy Panza 49:54 ... managing situations. If you suck at these, you need these a lot.

Joe Rogan 49:58 I see what you're saying.

Nancy Panza 49:59 Right? So, so for me, because I, you know, deal with communication and deal with, you know, de-escalation and how to talk someone down, how to talk to an individual with a mental illness, how to talk to somebody who's a victim or has been traumatized, how to talk to somebody who's maybe on drugs and not able to... You know, how do we manage those situations with verbal, with interactions, with communication, so that we don't have to go up the chain of command of, you know, of, of levels of force?

Joe Rogan 50:26 But that seems to me to be an incredible amount of training that must be necessary, and it also has to be constant and consistent.

Nancy Panza 50:33 Absolutely. And that's why when, when you and Jocko were talking about the training and how much more-

Joe Rogan 50:37 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 50:37 ... I'm like, "Yes, let me get in on that."

Joe Rogan 50:40 How much training-

Nancy Panza 50:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:40 How much training do they have to do w- in terms of hand-to-hand combat?

Nancy Panza 50:44 I don't know. I'm not sure how much. And again, I'm sure it depends on what academy they go through. Some academies are four months, some are six, some last longer, you know, and, and the makeup depends on who's running that academy as to, like, the, the breakdown of, you know, how much is in the classroom, how much is physical, how much is tactical. So, uh, I'm not sure what the numbers would be on that.

Joe Rogan 51:02 Andrew Yang, a presidential candidate, uh, he had... Well, former presidential candidate, he had an awesome idea, and he said every person who is in the police force should be a purple belt in jujitsu or higher. And I think that is a really good idea, 'cause at, uh, at that level, you have a real understanding of how to defend yourself and how to control bodies.

Nancy Panza 51:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:22 I saw a video. Um, I've seen quite a few of them, but, uh, one of the more pathetic videos I've ever seen was two people trying to hold one guy down, completely ineptly. The guy gets up, runs, gets into his car, and shoots both of them, and then takes off. And I'm like, "Jesus Christ." Went into his car, got a gun. Like, they, they had no control over this guy, two people.

Nancy Panza 51:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:43 And I'm like, "That should never take place."

Nancy Panza 51:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:46 And this guy wasn't some freak of nature either. It wasn't like they were trying to hold down Herschel Walker or some super athlete. No, just a regular guy. Just, they sucked, and it was... It's terrible to watch.

Nancy Panza 51:57 Yeah. Well, so, you know, part of the challenge with, with officers also is that, you know, we think of it as this, you know, go, go, go, do, do, do, adrenaline junkie job, which there are spurts of that, but, you know, a lot of that 12-hour shift is sitting and waiting or patrolling, depending on what you're-

Joe Rogan 52:16 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 52:16 ... you know, what you're, where you are and where you're patrolling. It's, it's tedious, tedious, tedious, and then it's intense-

Joe Rogan 52:23 Right.

Nancy Panza 52:23 ... or difficult or stressful. And so, you know, i- i- it's that-

Joe Rogan 52:27 So, they need to be trained to recognize that that's what's gonna happen too.

Nancy Panza 52:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:31 And to, to be psychologically prepared that this is, this is part of what it is.

Nancy Panza 52:35 Yeah. I remember the first time I went on a ride-along with someone and, and thinking, "This feels so much different than what I thought it would feel like." First of all, everybody stares at you and is looking at you, and you're, you know, like a, just standing out no matter where you go 'cause you're in, you know, you're in-

Joe Rogan 52:49 You're in a cop car.

Nancy Panza 52:50 ... you're in a patrol car, cop car, like-

Joe Rogan 52:51 Where did you go?

Nancy Panza 52:52 Oh, I've been, I've been many times, and my first one was decades ago in, in North Carolina. Um, I had a police officer for a roommate who took me out for the very first time, um, and on my first ride-along, it was at nighttime, just tedious, boring. A couple of, you know, low-level arrests, but just the, the way people respond and react really just felt so much different than I thought. And then I went out again a while later and saw a dead body and had all sorts of weird experiences on that one. Just the, the, the difference from shift to shift, to the-

Joe Rogan 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 53:25 ... adrenaline, excitement, or something scary or overwhelming happens, and then the, you know, just tedious and monotonous shift, and it... There- there's so much unpredictability and uncontrollability that, that you do sort of need to be alert and on and ready. Um, a- and part of that is what does a number on an officer's mental health, um.

Joe Rogan 53:47 I would imagine also the current state of the way people are treating police officers-

Nancy Panza 53:53 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:53 ... has gotta be devastating.

Nancy Panza 53:54 So much, um-

Joe Rogan 53:55 It changed in just a few short months.

Nancy Panza 53:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:58 We went from just most people have respect for the police-

Nancy Panza 54:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:01 ... to it's... It seems like it's in fashion to-

Nancy Panza 54:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:06 ... to talk shit about cops.

Nancy Panza 54:07 And it do- it comes and goes, right? You see-

Joe Rogan 54:10 But this is about as bad as it's ever gotten, don't you think?

Nancy Panza 54:12 It's bad now, and when I, you know, when I talk to folks, and, and hear-

Joe Rogan 54:15 It's nationwide too, which is what's fucked up.

Nancy Panza 54:17 Yeah. Yeah, it's not isolated.

Joe Rogan 54:18 It's not just Minneapolis.

Nancy Panza 54:19 It's not just an LA thing or a, yeah, or a Minneapolis. It has, it has really spread.

Joe Rogan 54:24 Who would've ever thought that that one incident would, would ignite this powder keg the way it did?

Nancy Panza 54:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:30 Because every other incident that we've had in the past, like the Rodney King incident-

Nancy Panza 54:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:34 ... that just started riots in Los Angeles. It didn't do anything-

Nancy Panza 54:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:38 ... in New York, but this one is across the world.

Nancy Panza 54:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:41 I mean, there's, there's, there's riots in London, you know what I mean?

Nancy Panza 54:45 Yeah, it's amazing.

Joe Rogan 54:45 People are going crazy in France because of this.

Nancy Panza 54:48 Yeah.And I don't... I mean, who knows? I- I-

Joe Rogan 54:52 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 54:52 ... have no idea what it was about this, other than it was just so outrageously awful.

Joe Rogan 54:58 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 54:59 Um...

Joe Rogan 54:59 There's that.

Nancy Panza 55:00 It's so outrageously-

Joe Rogan 55:02 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 55:02 ... awful what happened, and to watch that. You know, it was the video.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 55:06 We all got a firsthand look at-

Joe Rogan 55:10 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 55:10 ... something hideous-

Joe Rogan 55:12 There's also-

Nancy Panza 55:13 ... and- and- and scary. So, uh, I- I think the video... I mean, you literally saw a man lose his life and that was traumatizing for anybody who saw it. I'm sure the pandemic and everyone being shut down and restless and all the, you know, effects of that mentally and psychologically on all of us, you know, just sort of the unrest of that, combined with the horror of what, of what happened, um-

Joe Rogan 55:34 There's also the guy who got shot in Georgia.

Nancy Panza 55:36 Right. Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Um, which is-

Nancy Panza 55:37 Ahmaud Arbery with the-

Joe Rogan 55:38 Yes.

Nancy Panza 55:38 ... with what had happened to him and-

Joe Rogan 55:39 It was just before that. And then this was like the last straw.

Nancy Panza 55:41 I know. It's just enough. And I, I mean, I, I agree. I, I've found it, especially in those early weeks, very stressful to be somebody who really loves and supports law enforcement. My whole, my whole (laughs) goal in life is to take care of and, and, and protect cops and to help them be good and do a good job. That's, that's my passion. That's what I wanna do. But I'm also very opposed to racism. (laughs) I wanna be as anti-racist as I can be too, and to, to stand on both sides and to say, "Can I be both of these things?" And, and to work through and say, "Well, yeah, I really can."

Joe Rogan 56:17 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 56:17 Because that's not what we want cops to be doing out there.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Yeah. I mean, we, I think everyone-

Nancy Panza 56:21 We've gotta find a way to not do the us versus them and to, and to meet both. Good cops, anti-racism. Those, those are things that can go together.

Joe Rogan 56:30 Yeah. I mean, I think everyone can agree that racism is awful and racism-

Nancy Panza 56:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:33 ... by police is awful.

Nancy Panza 56:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:35 It, it's psycho- psychopaths that scare me.

Nancy Panza 56:38 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:38 It's not just racists. It's like that guy-

Nancy Panza 56:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:41 ... that shot that, um, man in the hotel in Phoenix. Do you know that story?

Nancy Panza 56:45 No.

Joe Rogan 56:45 Made the, made the guy crawl and the guy's pants were falling off and he kept, like, reaching back. He said, "Don't reach back," and then he shot him.

Nancy Panza 56:53 It was a cop that did that? I don't remember this-

Joe Rogan 56:55 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 56:55 ... story. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Well, the guy had a toy gun and someone reported him. They were drinking, they were in a hotel room. SWAT team shows up, they tell this guy... This guy tells this guy to get on the ground. The guy gets on the ground, he's crying, he's saying, "Please, I, I, I didn't do anything." And then he says, "Crawl towards..." He gives him these really fucked up instructions, like, "Crawl towards me." The guy's crawling and his pants are falling down, so he goes and reach backs and tries to pick up his pants. The guy's screaming at him, "I will fucking shoot you." And it's really clear there's nothing in his pants. He's just reaching back 'cause his pants are falling down. And so he's, he says again, "Crawl towards me," and the guy's pants are falling down. He reaches back and the cop just lights him up.

Nancy Panza 57:37 Mm-mmm.

Joe Rogan 57:37 While he's on it face down, no threat, no weapon, no nothing. I mean, it's one of the grossest ones you've ever seen and it's a white guy doing it to another white guy. I think racism is awful, but psychopaths are what the problem is.

Nancy Panza 57:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:51 It's not just racism. It's psychopaths that are racist. Or, I mean, I think that guy-

Nancy Panza 57:56 Sure.

Joe Rogan 57:56 ... had problems that, uh, Derek Chauvin. Didn't he have problems with white people too? Like, he had a long history of abuse. There was m- I think-

Nancy Panza 58:05 It certainly wouldn't surprise me. I, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:07 There was more than... There was multiple incidents. And this is what's scary to me. It's like, how does a guy stay on the police force when there's multiple incidents of him abusing people? Like, at what p- Like, did they just said, "Well, we never thought he was gonna kill somebody. We just thought he was rough, but he was a good cop otherwise." Like, is that how they're looking at it? Like, how does a guy like that get to a place where, you know, when you go back and look at his, his complaints. And this, this guy was one of the reasons why Amy Klobuchar was kind of tanked as-

Nancy Panza 58:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:39 ... being a vice presidential, uh, possibility.

Nancy Panza 58:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:41 Because she was in control back when this guy was doing this and they connected... They said like, well, they were connected to her.

Nancy Panza 58:47 Right. I remember reading that.

Joe Rogan 58:48 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 58:49 Um, yeah. I know that... O- obviously, I don't, I don't work in Minneapolis. I don't know what was going on in their department. But just from the things I've read and heard, you know, media, which I always take with a grain of salt 'cause you never know what you're getting, is that he'd had multiple prior incidents, multiple prior shootings. I think one was fatal.

Joe Rogan 59:06 Yes.

Nancy Panza 59:06 So these are, you know, these are red flags and markers. Now, does that mean he was definitely, you know... Take this prior to this incident, if we didn't know what had happened here and if I just saw that he'd had prior complaints and prior shootings. That, that may or may not be enough for me to say, "Hey, what's going on?" And that depends on what were the complaints, you know? Citizen complaints happen all the time, right?

Joe Rogan 59:28 Right.

Nancy Panza 59:28 So just seeing that someone's had a complaint... You know, you could give someone a parking ticket and they think you're an asshole and so they call up and complain, "They treated me unfairly." When you look back at, you know, if there's body cam footage or whatever, and it's a perfectly normal stop and that person just pissed off 'cause they got a ticket. You know what I mean? So a complaint can be something very substantial and very real and problematic or it could be one of these that complaints come in, citizens' complaints come all the time.

Joe Rogan 59:53 How do you feel about the other-

Nancy Panza 59:55 Some-

Joe Rogan 59:55 ... cops that were on the scene that were there with him?

Nancy Panza 59:58 I, I can't understand how one wouldn't intervene and say, "Okay, that's, that's enough. Let's back off now." I, I can't-

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 Was he the senior officer?

Nancy Panza 1:00:06 Um, I don't know. It sounded like... 'Cause I know they said two of the guys were pretty new on the job, um, and the other one, the one that you can see kind of standing in front had also been on the, on the force for a while. But I don't, I don't know which of the two had been on longer.

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 The w- uh, the way the culture is... (clears throat) Excuse me. The way the culture is, the, the two that were new, if they saw him do that, it's not really... Is it... Is that a thing that they can say? If you're a new guy and you've been on the job for a couple months and there's a guy who's been on the job for 20 years and you see him doing something, is it your place-... I understand it's-

Nancy Panza 1:00:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 ... your place as a human being.

Nancy Panza 1:00:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 But w- how does the culture work?

Nancy Panza 1:00:44 It is a paramilitary environment where if someone is your superior, it is very hard to speak out against that person. So, that is m-... that is definitely a problem and something that, you know, to act out... And, and, and the culture in the department would be, yeah, if that's somebody who either is a higher rank than you or who's been on longer, mm, you know, especially if they're brand new and that's like their field training officer, um-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:01:08 ... you're, you're not gonna step in and tell them not to do that. That's not-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 And it kinda has to be that way.

Nancy Panza 1:01:13 It's not the way it's done. Yeah. Tha- that's, that's that paramilitary model. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 So if you are, uh, shit out of luck and your superior officer is a psychopath-

Nancy Panza 1:01:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 ... and he's doing something like that-

Nancy Panza 1:01:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 ... if he doesn't kill that person and there's no complaint, what recourse does that person have? If they go to-

Nancy Panza 1:01:33 The person who was the victim-

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Nancy Panza 1:01:34 ... or the other officer?

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 The oth- um, the other officer that's there. Like, what recourse does that officer have if you're seeing someone abuse someone and you're new on the job, can you go to internal affairs? Like... And if you do, there's a stigma attached to that, correct?

Nancy Panza 1:01:46 Yeah. S- e-... There are ways to report fellow officers, yes. But would most people do that? It's a tough call. Yes, it happens, and some people do the right thing. But yeah, there's a cost that comes with that. I think one of the-

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 The code of silence.

Nancy Panza 1:02:01 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:02:02 One o- one of the interesting reforms that lots of folks are talking about and some cities are passing is this requirement for other officers to say something. And, um, this is an interesting one. There's a lot of these piecemeal reforms that kinda make me go, "Ugh." Like, "Okay, it's fine, but I don't know that that's gonna make much change." Um, this one makes me stop and think and I, I wonder if maybe it will. Maybe it will. I, I don't know. I, I, uh, I see it could go both ways, where it could be something that's helpful if there's a safe mechanism for people to report. But, you know, i- in that situation, you know, thinking about the, the George Floyd situation, you know, if those... i- if two of those officers had said, "Hey, you need to back off," and again, still if they're inferior to him, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 What happens in the culture?

Nancy Panza 1:02:50 ... what are the odds- Yeah. What are the odds that he's not gonna tell them, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:02:54 ... "Screw you." Like, "I'm-"

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:02:55 "... I'm superior to you. You back off." And so I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 And then tell everybody else also on the force and then it becomes-

Nancy Panza 1:03:01 Right. And then they're the snitch and they're the-

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 1:03:04 ... you know, the weasel and whatever else. And so it, it's really... uh, these... the idea, I think, is a great one. Let's put... let's put this law in place that you have to, to, to report it or to intervene if you see something. But I just wonder how that'll look as it plays out. And-

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 Well-

Nancy Panza 1:03:20 ... and you can't have a divide among people that y- you have to work that closely together and that you have to rely on to protect you, you know, to have your back.

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 Right. And body cameras really are only good once something's happened and you have to review the body camera.

Nancy Panza 1:03:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 It's not like someone's reviewing the body camera every day and going, "Mike, you're kind of a cunt."

Nancy Panza 1:03:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 "Like, the way you treated those people, you fucking asshole."

Nancy Panza 1:03:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Like, "Why, why are you so rude? Why are you so mean?" Like, this is not good as a police officer.

Nancy Panza 1:03:44 Yeah. The only thought that folks had, especially when body cams were first becoming the thing and, and tons of departments were, uh... you know, were starting to use them, was people thought that kind of, you know, big brother is watching feeling.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:03:55 "Well, you know, if we know we're on camera, we're gonna be on our best behavior, um, and, and that we're gonna always do the right thing." And I'm sure there is some-

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Well, there's one way to do that.

Nancy Panza 1:04:04 ... well, there's some element of that, but, um-

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 There's one way to do that.

Nancy Panza 1:04:07 What's that?

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 You stream it live, all cameras. You have, uh-

Nancy Panza 1:04:11 That's a lot of footage. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Yeah. Right.

Nancy Panza 1:04:14 That's part of the problem in police departments when they start to implement body cam footage. They have to make these big decisions on, where do we store this data? How long do we keep it? What... you know, what... all these massive-

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 YouTube.

Nancy Panza 1:04:24 ... decisions. So, you know, we would flood YouTube with-

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Yeah. But so... I mean, listen, people are flooding YouTube anyway.

Nancy Panza 1:04:30 True.

Joe Rogan 1:04:30 I mean, the... it sounds crazy, but if you did do that, there would be very little shenanigans.

Nancy Panza 1:04:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 I mean, that-

Nancy Panza 1:04:38 But we kinda have that already because cell phones, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 No, you don't.

Nancy Panza 1:04:41 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 No. If no one has a cell phone-

Nancy Panza 1:04:43 ... maybe not every minute.

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 ... and it's just one, one perpetrator and three cops, you don't have anything.

Nancy Panza 1:04:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 You know? If, if everyone was streaming all the time, it would be a... it'd be really hard to get away with a lot of the stuff that people get away with.

Nancy Panza 1:04:56 It would be. And one of the things I've heard people talk about with body cam footage is having, you know, sort of that oversight committee to, to regularly review footage. In fact, there was-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 Oh my God. You'd be reviewing eight hours a day all day long.

Nancy Panza 1:05:06 Of all the officers on the... it's-

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:05:08 ... it's, it's such a monumental type of thing to get your head around.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 Leave it to the people. Put it on YouTube.

Nancy Panza 1:05:13 Sounds scary. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 What sounds scary about it?

Nancy Panza 1:05:16 Just, just the chaos and, and mayhem that would ensue from that.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Well-

Nancy Panza 1:05:21 But-

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Also accountability.

Nancy Panza 1:05:23 True.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 You know, both things would ensue from that.

Nancy Panza 1:05:25 True.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Um, let's, let's talk... L- here's another example, uh, that made me sick. It has nothing to do with racism. When they were in, um... was it upstate New York where they pushed that old man down?

Nancy Panza 1:05:37 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 And he fell and bounced his head off the ground and was unconscious. And his... I think he's still in trouble.

Nancy Panza 1:05:44 Is he?

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Yeah. He's still hurt.

Nancy Panza 1:05:46 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 I mean, look, he's really old.

Nancy Panza 1:05:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 And he fell and, and slammed his head on the ground. So, they charged the officer for doing that, and then the rest of the officers, they quit. Um, clearly, you shouldn't push an old man like that. Clearly. When that guy falls and hits his head, you gotta look after him and give him medical attention. The guy was unconscious, bleeding from the back of his head. And he's f- really old.

Nancy Panza 1:06:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 Like, if you're that old and you fall down like that, he easily could've died.

Nancy Panza 1:06:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 And you've got these cops that just walked away while this guy's down like that. And what, what did the guy say that was so bad that they had to push him down? I mean, he's some sort of like radical left-wing activist and he's been that way his whole life, but he didn't touch anybody. He didn't, he didn't assault anyone. Like, why did they do that to him? And why did those other cops... why did they retire? Well, they quit because of this same comradery. And I understand that. You need that. If you go to war together, you have to, you have to stay together. You have to stick up for each other. You- you're a part of a team. I understand that. But you can't do that.

Nancy Panza 1:06:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 And the whole world saw that.

Nancy Panza 1:06:57 Yeah.What else can I say?

Joe Rogan 1:07:02 I don't know.

Nancy Panza 1:07:02 You can't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:02 You can't.

Nancy Panza 1:07:03 You can't do that. I, it's, you know, I mean, I can't, I, I wasn't there. I haven't talked to those officers. I don't, you know, I don't know what happened before, I don't know what happened after. I don't, you know, all I see is, again, these little snippets that come onto the news media and-

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 To, you just-

Nancy Panza 1:07:16 ... some-

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 ... see a guy push a frail, old man.

Nancy Panza 1:07:18 ... yep. What you see is something that's, that's awful.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:07:21 But when you've got these, you know, these police and they're lined up and they're marching, like, what, what, what's going on and, and how could that have happened and why, like, I, I don't know. I don't have an explanation for that one. I don't... I would like to know. I would like to talk to the people. I'd like to see what was happening.

Joe Rogan 1:07:35 Those-

Nancy Panza 1:07:35 Why it was in that, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 Those all pile up.

Nancy Panza 1:07:37 ... that kinda mindset. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 They pile up. All, all-

Nancy Panza 1:07:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 ... these videos pile up. All these times where cops abused people pile up.

Nancy Panza 1:07:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 You know, it's just, it's so unfortunate. And every time a cop fucks up, every other cop has to deal with the pain of that.

Nancy Panza 1:07:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 They have to deal-

Nancy Panza 1:07:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 ... with the stigma and they have to deal with the, the anger and the, the, the backlash.

Nancy Panza 1:07:59 It's definitely the, uh, one of the hardest aspects of the job is that, you know, you're given an immense amount of power.

Joe Rogan 1:08:09 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:08:09 Um, you know, that badge and that gun just are, are tremendous in terms of what they give you liberty to do. And like all humans, you know, power, power can corrupt. Nothing corrupts more than money and power, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:08:23 Cops don't have money, but they've got the power.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:08:26 And, and they, you know, it is so easy to let that, you know, to, to, to go the l- the wrong way.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:08:33 And so, and in, like I said, and I don't think that these, that the folks that you see in these videos started out as bad people.

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:08:41 I don't think they... uh, I mean, I spend so many days of my life evaluating these folks who want to go into this very noble profession and the majority of them are just really great people. Occasionally, you get an idiot that comes through and usually they fail because they don't belong-

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:08:59 ... on the force. And that person, no thank you. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 My fear is that more idiots are gonna get in now because less people want to be police.

Nancy Panza 1:09:06 Well, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 So it's gonna be even worse.

Nancy Panza 1:09:07 ... it's doubly scaring now. The defunding thing obviously is, is a huge issue, like, uh, what's gonna happen? Agencies are not gonna be able to hire 'cause the money's being taken away.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 It's a political-

Nancy Panza 1:09:17 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 ... thing as well.

Nancy Panza 1:09:18 Totally political.

Joe Rogan 1:09:18 It's like when they say, "We're gonna defund the police," all the progressive people go, "Yes."

Nancy Panza 1:09:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 "I wanna be unsafe, yes."

Nancy Panza 1:09:25 But, that, the combination of the defunding as well as the tanking economy, um, you know, some of the departments that I work for, you know, they're, the, the money that comes into that city or that town to support the department, you know, we're all-

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:09:40 ... at the financial-

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 It's all going away.

Nancy Panza 1:09:41 ... crisis that's goin' on from the pandemic, you know, so I've, I've, a few of the agencies that I work for are like, "Yeah, we don't anticipate hiring in maybe the next two to three years."

Joe Rogan 1:09:49 (imitates music fading)

Nancy Panza 1:09:51 So, and that's partly, you know, and, and some, it's not a defunding thing issue, it's just, it's the financial crisis from the pandemic.

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:09:58 You know, that there's just, there's things that are-

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 There's cuts across the board.

Nancy Panza 1:10:01 Yeah, that-

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 And they can also use that as a political ploy, like say-

Nancy Panza 1:10:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 ... we're defunding the police as well, but really they're cutting education, they're cutting-

Nancy Panza 1:10:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 ... all sorts of services.

Nancy Panza 1:10:09 So we're all suffering right now 'cause of the financial crisis that's going on from this-

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 Yeah.

Nancy Panza 1:10:13 ... COVID crap, but in addition then, you've got that plus the COVID stuff and, I mean, you've got departments who are going to be really strapped for, you know, for, for hi- being able to hire and then, like you said, who wants to go into this job now? Um, in fact when I do these, uh, uh, I'm still doing some evaluations right now and, and the question that I start off is, "Wh- why do you wanna do this?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 Right.

Nancy Panza 1:10:37 "Given the current climate, you know, what's, what, what makes you wanna be an officer?" Just to hear what their thoughts are, you know, and, and, and to sort of get, get into their mind a little bit on, on what is it that makes you want to do this. 'Cause really you gotta be, um, you, you gotta be second guessing your options here at this point, um, 'cause it's, it's not an easy time to be a cop.

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 What... If, if I gave you a magic wand and, uh, or the President did, and the President said, "Look, Nancy, we got a real problem. Um, we want you to help."

Nancy Panza 1:11:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:09 "And w- y- we'll let you structure the program for the entire country for the police officers."

Nancy Panza 1:11:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 What do you think should be done?

Nancy Panza 1:11:16 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:16 Cost no option.

Nancy Panza 1:11:18 I love that you ask that question. In, in therapy world, therapists, we ask that question for our clients all the time. We call it the miracle question.

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 Oh.

Nancy Panza 1:11:25 Therapist trick you just did right there.

Joe Rogan 1:11:27 Mm-hmm.

Nancy Panza 1:11:27 And you do it to a lot of your guests. I like it.

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 I don't even know-

Nancy Panza 1:11:30 Um, total