EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,099 words- 0:01 – 3:34
COVID travel risks, personal health, and supplement talk (vitamin D, zinc, C)
- JRJoe Rogan
Three, two, uh. Hello, Debra.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hi.
- JRJoe Rogan
We were just talking, you're locked up in Toronto. You were thinking about flying here, but they fill the planes now, you were saying, which is a little disturbing. I did not know they're doing that.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, they usually would leave the middle seat open, but, uh, as of about a month or so ago, they book it fully now. So, I was super excited. I'm, I'm so sad that I can't be there with you because I've been counting down the days, and I was thinking, "I have to at least be in LA to do Joe's show." But I was just a bit scared.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, well, it's scary. It's weird. I mean,, uh, how many people have you known that have caught it now?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Actually, nobody.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Isn't that wild?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Everybody I know knows at least one or two people. I don't know anyone, so I'm very, very lucky.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm up to nine friends, nine friends have gotten it. And...
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Two of them got it bad.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, two of them got it really bad, to the point where they were hospitalized. Um, but...
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's, uh... One of them was an older guy, and one of them is a guy who was 45 who just was run... My friend, Michael Yeo, who was just rundown. He was, like, just really exhausted from too much traveling and too much... I mean, it was really a crazy schedule that he was on, and he wound up catching it. He, he got, he had it bad. He was hospitalized for a week.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, no. Is he doing okay now?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He's fine now. Um, but his endurance is really low. Like his, uh, lung capacity suffered. It's-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That's the thing because when this happened, uh, I felt like, "Okay, everything has to stop, and I have to take care of myself just to..." We take it for granted, right, when you're healthy, but the minute something like this happens, you... This is something that I would have never even thought about
- NANarrator
(...)
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you taking a lot of, of vitamin D?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, I'm actually... Everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I take omega.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's good, um, but you should, you should really... Vitamin C and vitamin D are critical, and zinc. Zinc is critical. Um, but vitamin D, in particular. They did a study, uh, several studies actually. Uh, Dr. Rhonda Patrick was on the podcast talking about it, and she said that there was several studies that showed that in the people that were in the ICU with COVID, more than 80% of them were insufficient in their vitamin D levels, and only 4% were sufficient.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. So it's not... It's n- You know, it's not a prevent-all. It's not, it's not provable, you know, but it's, there's, there's gotta be some sort of a correlation.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it 'cause I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money for those.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, I don't think they would. I think you're wrong.
- 3:34 – 4:32
Debra’s book premise: “The End of Gender” and why the title is misunderstood
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. So explain to people what the book is.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So the book is called The End of Gender, and before I go any further, I'm gonna explain the title because some people, I think, misinterpret what I... When I announced it on social media, some people were getting upset because I think they thought I was taking a very, very far-left, progressive view. And I, I consider myself to be a liberal. I'm definitely not far-left, but, you know, I have liberal values. I'm pro-science. And so The End of Gender, I think people m- thought that I meant I was saying that gender is basically whatever you want it to be. It's based solely on self-identification. You know, there's no tethering to biology. And that is not what I'm saying with the book at all, and I think if anyone's ever read my columns or seen my appearances or they listened to our, the talk that I had with you last time I was on your show, that's definitely not what I'm saying. I'm saying the complete opposite, that the fact that science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting... Is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender, and that's leading to the demise of our understanding of it in an inaccurate way.
- 4:32 – 6:26
Credentials and exit from academia: the “tenure won’t protect you” moment
- JRJoe Rogan
If you don't mind, just, just to start things off, will you please give your credentials and tell people what you do?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. So I have a PhD in sexual neuroscience research. Um, I made the transition from academic, being a, an academic sex researcher to being a journalist, so now I write about the science of sex and gender. I write about the politicization of science and academic censorship. And so now I have this book out, and I can talk a bit about how I got here, if that would be helpful, or...
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure. Sure.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, when I was doing my PhD, I very much, I loved being a sex researcher. I really thought I was gonna stay in academia, and in the last few years, I noticed that there had been a change in the climate in terms of what people could study, what people could talk about as scientific experts. And one area in particular was about gender transition in children. So, every single mainstream news piece was saying that for these children who say they're born in the wrong body, the best approach for them would be early transitioning, so that means to take on a name, a new name, identify as the opposite sex, usually get a haircut, start dressing like the opposite sex. But from a scientific perspective, all of the research actually shows that most of these kids, the vast majority of them are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood. They're not gonna be transgender. And at that time, there was literally maybe one or two news articles that called into question this narrative o- of early transitioning. So I wrote an op-ed about this, citing the scientific research, and I asked my colleagues and mentors in academia...... you know, what do you think? I, I knew that there was gonna be some backlash to it, um, and one of my mentors said to me... 'Cause I said, "Should I wait until I have tenure to put something like this out?" And he said, "Nowadays, tenure is not going to protect you." So, that sealed my decision. I published the piece, and then from there I made the transition into journalism and I haven't looked back.
- 6:26 – 14:06
The taboo conversation: rapid-onset gender dysphoria, media backlash, and “ideology as religion”
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a very strange time when it comes to talking about certain subjects, 'cause it doesn't matter what the science is. There's a, th- th- there, there are specific narratives that you have to adhere to in today's climate. You know, I, like you, am also left, but when, when it comes to saying, like, far left, like far left is a, a different thing now than it used to be. Far left used to be, uh, I mean, 10, just 10, 15 years ago it was a different animal, and I knew a lot of people that were far left. Now, far left I, I associate with lunacy. It's a like-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... I, I look at it the same way I look at far right. I look at far right extremists and far left extremists. But something happened where far left ideology has permeated our culture when it comes to gender, and, uh, I don't understand it. I don't... It, it, it, it, if you don't adhere to this ideology, people want to say that you're, uh, you have no compassion, you're evil, you're bigoted. I had Abigail Shrier on the podcast recently and she has-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I love Abigail.
- JRJoe Rogan
She's great. And she's very brave, and I saw what happens when you go against this narrative by having her on. Men's Health wrote a piece about me saying I'm fanning the flames of hate because she was talking about a 4,000% increase, 4,000% increase, in teenage girls identifying as trans and rapid-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... onset gender dysphoria, which is real. I mean, this is, this is a real, scientific phenomena.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It's 70 times, 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of people identifying as transgender.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a... It's amazing. Um, she was talking about this in this very specific way, talking about awkward teenage girls and about how these girls have, you know, really odd situations in terms of the way they deal with people socially, and then all of a sudden they're praised for deciding that they're trans, and then they get these clusters of friends that also decide that they're trans, which is very strange. It's, it's just a very strange phenomena. But you're not even allowed to talk about it. So, if, if Men's Health, which is, it's a fucking men's magazine, is gonna write articles calling you a hateful person because you're discussing it... There was no hate in that podcast at all. It was just discussing it, like, what is causing this, why is this, and what, what can be done? And why are we so quick to just as- I mean, we, uh, we, we can assume that people are troubled in all sorts of different ways, but we can't assume they're ever troubled when it comes to gender. It's, it's very bizarre.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think what you were saying with why it's gone so far left, I do think a lot of this is coming from empathy, which is a good thing. And I, I have to say, you know, I, with regard to the, the issue of transitioning children, I do support transitioning in adults.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think it can help a- adults who are transgender. I think if you're an adult, you, it's your decision, it's your body, it's no one's place to tell you what to do. But I think a lot of this is coming from... So, I grew up in the gay community and I remember seeing how homophobic people could be toward my friends, uh, and I think things have changed, things have gotten better in some ways. I think s- homophobia still exists and we can talk about that, because I do talk about how that affects a lot of what we're seeing in the book. But I think for a lot of people, they look at that and they say, "Okay, we were wrong about that. We were wrong to treat gay people differently, we were wrong to say that being gay is something you can change," so now they've gone completely in, in the opposite direction saying, "Okay, no matter what anyone says with regard to their identity, with regard to their gender, this is something that we should not challenge, we should fully support." And if you e- question it in any way, even in the most nuanced or sensitive way, as I try to and as I think you do, that's still not acceptable.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's what's strange. It's, it's an ideology. It's rigid. It's like a religion.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It is. It is. I think... I find people who are, you know, middle of the road, they're not sure what to think, if they read my work or they talk to me, they say, "Oh, wow, I had never th- I never realized that. I didn't know the science said that," and they change their perspective. But I think for some people, if they are very much invested in the identity or very, uh, very invested in activism, or for whatever reason this ideology means something to them, it's, you cannot, you just cannot reason with them. It doesn't matter what the science says, they will find something to pick at. And especially with desistance, which is that, that, um, the research I was mentioning where it shows that most kids will not feel gender dysphoric anymore when they re- reach puberty. They, they just... People, some people cannot accept it and they will call you transphobic, they'll call you bigoted. And, uh, you know, I don't think I'm any of those things. I'm really just trying to help prevent these children from making, potentially, a very bad decision that they're going to regret. And especially now, um, we're seeing in the UK that this is happening, where more de-transitioners are saying, "This was something I regret. This was a mistake. Why did the adults not challenge me?" I really think... So, right now we're in August 2020. I think within the fi- next five years or maybe a little bit longer, we're gonna be seeing an explosion of children coming out and saying, "I did not wanna transition. This was a mistake." And it's really gonna be awful.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we're already seeing that. There's a lawsuit that was, uh, very prominent in the UK recently about a, a young girl-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who transitioned to be... Do you know the lawsuit I'm talking about?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I do, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Keira Bell.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's heartbreaking because they... She's essentially ruined her body to the point where she's not gonna be able to have children. She's, she'll, you know, she... And, and in many cases, a lot of these girls can't have orgasms ever again.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No. Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And it, but it... I think in North America, we are still very much in denial about this. If, if, I mean, whenever I'm on a show, if I'm on TV and I talk about this, the backlash after is just crazy. And I'm thinking-... people need to wake up. We're, I'm trying to stop this from happening, right? The whole point of writing this book and saying these things is trying to prevent what's about to happen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, um, the backlash is, it's- it's very strange because, um, a lot of the backlash is from trans folks and it seems that they equate any criticism or any- any examination of even children, even small children transitioning to transphobia. You- you must hate. And I get there- there has to be some trans people that as children knew that they were women or they were the opposite sex, that- that- that they were in the wrong body. There has to be.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The question- the question is-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, I don't disagree with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think we both don't. The question is how many and how do they make that decision and how many have actually- are actually being influenced by other factors external? Children are very malleable and that's part of the problem with making lifelong decisions as a six-year-old. If you're a six-year-old male and you decide that you're a female and you go through the transition and then- then you realize you're a gay man later in life, there's no recourse. There's nothing you can do to rectify that. That's what's terrifying about this and that you're not allowed to talk about it, and you're not all- you're not allowed to say that even.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right, right. And when I do point that out, people say that I'm using the gay community to try and ... as a shield or something like that, but it- medical professionals need to be the ones to do their job because it is their job. They should be doing proper assessments with these children and- and adults too, to determine, you know, what is the best way for it for you. And that's the only way they can really determine on a case-by-case basis whether transitioning is going to help somebody, but they can't do their jobs right now. Everyone I know that is ethical in the field has left or they stopped working with the- these patients because they don't feel they can do their job properly. So, what you have instead is- is the people who are currently operating are activists, and they will really facilitate whatever patient wants them to do, whether or not that may or may not be the right thing for them.
- 14:06 – 17:02
How academia became risk-averse: activist pressure, chilling effects, and “canary in the coal mine”
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, how did we get to this point? Now, how did we get to this point, first of all, in academia? You come from academia. How- how did we get to this point where some subjects cannot be discussed, where like you were- you were talking to that other professor and they were saying, "Even if you get tenure, this is not gonna protect you." Like what- what happened?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Within sex research in particular, I feel like sex research was the- the canary in the coal mine because we saw this coming decades ago, in that, uh, one professor, Michael Bailey at Northwestern University, there's been a long history that's ugly between sex researchers and transgender activists. And Michael Bailey wrote a book, uh, I think it was 2003, that really enraged some activists. And I have to say, trans activists don't speak for all transgender people. I have many trans people who've reached out to me over the years telling me that they actually agree with me, um, but I feel activists tend to be the most vocal, they tend to be the most aggressive. And so after researchers saw what happened to Mike, I mean, I- in the book I talk about the things that they did to him, some of them were very unethical really. They really tried to ruin him professionally and- and his personal reputation as well. And so after that, people said, "Well, you- I'm not touching this subject because it's just not worth it." And so anyone who has tried to counter trans activists since then also faced really serious, you know, repercussions. So, I think that's been part of it. And I think also with- more broadly with this ideology, that students are being taught this and they graduate, they go out into the real world, they get jobs, and a lot of people even five years ago, I would say, dismissed a lot of this ideology, especially around gender. They would say, "That's only in academia. That is not something that's actually gonna affect me in my, you know, real life." But here it is now. It's- it affects everybody. There's no way that you- this is not affecting you. I think it's just a question of how much do you pay attention to it. You know, people send me messages, they tell me about when they have training at work, they tell me about their kids' education. Like at the book, I don't just talk about transitioning children, I talk about the idea that gender is not a social construct, it is not a spectrum. I talk about how it- there is a relation between gender identity and sexual orientation, which you're also supposed to not say, apparently. Um, I talk about sex differences, you know? Uh, and these are all things that are considered taboo and I don't understand w- I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation. We're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people. In fact, I'm always very clear to say that it doesn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think this is one of the reasons why you're so important, because you're obviously a very intelligent, kind person and you're not a hateful person and you- you're- you're not in any way discriminating. You're looking at this as a scientist and you're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science, particularly when it comes to really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender. I would love to talk to you about what you just said, though. When you said that there's no- not a spectrum when it comes to gender, that's a common narrative.
- 17:02 – 20:21
Binary sex vs. stereotypes: defining sex via gametes and discussing gender-atypical traits
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what do you- what do you mean by that, like there's not a spectrum?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, there are two genders and ... so gender, for 99% of us, our biological sex is our gender. Biological sex is determined by gametes, which are either eggs or sperm. So, there are no intermediate gametes, so gender is either male or female. So thi- this I do not think validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people, I think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities, we don't have to reconceptualize what gender or sex are and- and also for intersex people in particular, most of them want to live within the binary. They want to live as either male or female. They don't want- they don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into, uh, a- a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else. I mean, this is what's being published in scientific papers now. They refer to gender as, quite literally, a galaxy. So (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... I mean, it's- it's ridiculous.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's pretty crazy. Not just a spectrum, but a galaxy? 250 billion types? (laughs)
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, and there- there's all kinds. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that what it's like? Like, all the stars? That's crazy.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, when you- when you say there's-... there, there's just two genders. Uh, first of all, that's gonna enrage people, right?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But second of all, you w- you can see that there are very feminine men and very masculine women, and if th- if that is true, what, what accounts for that?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It goes back to the prenatal environment. So I definitely don't deny that there are gender-atypical people. I, as a woman, I look very feminine, but I'm actually very gender-atypical. I've always felt more masculine, and even to this day, I feel much more masculine than feminine, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait a minute. You... Wait. Hold on a second. You feel masculine?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Uh-huh. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? That's crazy. You don't seem-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. You would never know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God, you don't even seem remotely masculine. Like, what, what determines that you are masculine?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I, I would say, well, from a young age, I'd always been more like boys. I looked like a boy when I was younger. I've always just... My friends were always boys and guys, and I've always felt... I've just always felt more like a man, just like you feel like a man, right? I- it's, it's... Gender's one of those things, in terms of how we describe it, is so personal, and that's why I feel it's so important to focus on the evidence, because without that, what do you really have? So it... What it really... What it comes down to is the testosterone exposure in the womb.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, but how are you-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
... how are you like a man?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
If you see... Well, how can I say this? It's hard for me to not go in and digging into personal examples, right? Uh, but I would just say I've always been more like boys. If you look at how boys behave and how girls behave, I've always been more like the boys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Like, in, like, your interests and your into fast cars and-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Interests, my behavior. I was... I'm into fighting, right? I w- I've been-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... a martial artist. When I was young especially, I used to always get into fistfights with the boys, and I would actually win.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? (laughs) But you're... That's hilarious, 'cause you seem very feminine to me. That's very odd.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
People always say that to me. Yeah, for sure.
- 20:21 – 32:28
Non-binary surge: social signaling, sexism/homophobia explanations, and concerns about young surgeries
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, I know. I know. We can talk about the non-binary movement, 'cause I'm actually very concerned, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... in terms of what that movement is about, and I am all for it. Listen, I'll use whatever pronouns someone wants me to use. I'll be respectful. My issue is when people, again, say that this is backed by science when it isn't and when we're also not talking about what it's actually about. So for a lot of people who are identifying as non-binary, I think it's coming from a place of sexism in society or homophobia. So a lot of people who identify as non-binary, especially among people who were born male, they will normally come out as gay, as a gay man, and then decide to be non-binary. Or for people who were born female, many of them don't... They feel a lot of discomfort around their bodies, the changes they experience being a woman. They don't like the attention that they're getting. They don't wanna be sexualized. For some of them, they get, uh, they have exposure to pornography at a young age, and they, they think that that is actually what sex is gonna be like, and they think, "I don't want that, so how do I avoid that? Well, if I be- if I become something other than a woman, I will not have to experience this." And, and no one is saying to them, "You know, number one, pornography..." I'm definitely not anti-porn. You know, I used to write for a very prominent men's magazine, so I, uh, have no issue with that. I just think we have to be able to have a conversation saying, "You know, if you feel different, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a woman." Or, uh, with regards to pornography, it's, it's entertainment, so that's not what sex is gonna be like when you get there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Um, let's, let's start with the non-binary aspect. Do you think that... I mean, I, I know people that claim to be non-binary, and... I'm trying to say this in a nice way. I think some of them, it's a, it's a cool thing to say you are. There's a thing today where if you can say you're non-binary, like, "Oh." Like it's, it's part of being woke, you know? It's part of... I mean, not, not saying that there aren't people who don't feel like they don't fit into either male nor female, and, or maybe they feel asexual or maybe they just don't, uh, they just don't feel like whatever the models that exist in society apply to them. They do- they don't feel like they, they, they connect with those models. But the, the, the, the term non-binary, how recent is that? Like, how long has that been around?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It's been around for decades, but I would say in terms of the popularity, uh, one study showed that among millennials, about 10% identify as a third gender, so this includes, you know, non-binary, gender-neutral-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... agender.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what I'm saying. It-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So it's, it's really picked up recently.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's kind of a woke thing, right?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Sorry?
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm sorry. It's g- we're... It's, uh, hard to do Skype, right? It's kind of a woke thing.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think it's a way for some people to signal their politics, and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... I think... I get it. I get that feeling of you don't quite feel like maybe you're... if, uh, as... if you're born female, that you're really feminine or girly. But I think the only way to fight ba- back against those stereotypes is to say, "I'm still a woman." Right? "I don't need to be super girly to be a woman." And similarly, if you're a man, if you're a feminine man, you can still be a man and be a feminine man. There's nothing wrong with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But that's where people feel like we should be describing it as a spectrum. That's, that's where they feel like if you look at, you know, Jason Momoa versus, um, Andy Dick, okay? Like, obviously these are two very different kinds of men, and that's where people would apply the concept of a spectrum.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right, but why can we not just say they're both men? I don't understand why just because someone is slightly different, that they suddenly need to be categorized as, as, as a d- that you have to reconceptualize what it means to be a man just because there are different types of men.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I don't-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I feel like that's very outdated.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. That's in- it's interesting, 'cause I don't know why they do that. I just think that for some people, it gives them comfort to think that they are not exactly the same as other men.... who are different than them in radical ways, like more masculine or more me- more feminine, and they're more comfortable with this concept of a spectrum. There's clearly a physical spectrum, right? There's, there's a spectrum in terms of body types and ectomorphs and endomorphs and mesomorphs, and there's a spectrum in terms of height and size and weight and all these different things. I think a lot of people would like there to be a spectrum in terms of gender.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Uh, the sense I get from, from people who identify this way is that it, there's some sort of discomfort in their birth sex. And I, I would, I, I think, you know, if we could talk about this openly and that's what they still decided... My issue also with this movement is for some people, they go on and they will get surgery, so double mastectomies are very common among people who are born female who identify as non-binary. And I'm concerned about that because a l- some of these people are very young when they're deciding to get these surgeries done. So, if we could have this conversation and if, you know, psychologists could do their job and, and determine, "Is this really the best outcome for you?" Then that's, again, their business. But we can't have this conversation at all. We're not talking about whether there might be other reasons why someone feels this way, and that maybe just opening your mind to other possibilities would actually be helpful.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, w- I, I hear what you're saying. Uh, I think we can have this conversation, and I think that's why we're having it. And I think-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, you and I?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
You and I, you're very brave to have me on. We are having this conversation, but I feel like most people in the general population would be horrified.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
They'd be scared.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think it's most people in the general population. I think it's a small percentage of people that are very angry at these, these conversations. And I think the reason why is because they believe that these conversations equal hate, or these kind of conversations equal either homophobia or transphobia. I think the problem is the existence of that at all. If there was no homophobia, if it did not exist, if it was no transphobia, if it didn't exist, if everyone, like... I know that you are not those things. You're not homophobic or transphobic, nor am I. And I, I think if we all knew, this is one of the reasons why you and I can have this conversation. We know there's, there's no hate here. If there's no hate, you can talk about it for what it really is. But when you have this conversation, the problem with woke culture is that it's automatically assumed that because you question the narrative, that you're doing so from a discriminatory, is, discriminatory point of view. You're, you're discriminating. You're doing it from, uh, some sort of a prejudice. You're doing it with an, a negative feeling about the subject, and I, and I don't think that's accurate, and I think most people recognize that it's not accurate. It's a small, very vocal minority of people that object, and this is where the problem lies, is that the people that you were d- referring to as th- the activists, and it's not even all the activists, it's just the really angry ones are so vocal-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... about it, and they go so far outta their way to attack that it's not a subject that you could even breach. And, I mean, because I just had this podcast the other day, it was only a g- a couple weeks ago with Abigail, and now I'm having it with you, like, oh my God, it's gonna compound. It's gonna b- be crazy. But listen, we, you and I had scheduled this-
- 32:28 – 43:16
Pediatric transition pathways: consent ages, medical gatekeeping, and harms of irreversible choices
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, when Abigail told me that in some places, you can self-diagnose as being trans at... As young as 15 and you can go to-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, you can, yeah, you can get... 'Cause medical consent, it depends on the age of medical consent. So if... In some places, like I believe Oregon, it's like 15.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So you can go without, without parental consent.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they'll give you testosterone.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But even still, a lot of cases, these interventions are started even younger if the parents, the parents will sign off on it. I've heard of girls, people born female as young as age 12 getting double mastectomies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Wow. Um, the thing that drove me crazy is the fact that you don't even have to have any counseling, anything. You self-diagnose and they'll give you testosterone. I mean, that seems, that seems insane. That seems like there's some sort of an agenda. I mean, it, it... Whether it's just woke ideology or whatever it is that would allow a doctor to think that's a good idea. I just, I don't understand what, what kind of a lack of understanding of young people. I mean, you're not, you're not even fully formed. Your frontal lobe isn't even fully formed and you're making these radical decisions at 15 years of age.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
With testosterone too. So I wanna... I spoke with Buck Angel. I interviewed him for the book. He was amazing. And he actually has a website. I wanna make sure I get it right actually. I should have... I think it's ftmhealth.com. He has information because he was saying to me how transgender care and health really needs to be improved and a lot of medical professionals will prescribe testosterone and they do not fully understand one of the side effects is uterine cramping and atrophy. So for these individuals, when they start taking it, they start, they'll be cramping, they'll be in a lot of pain, they'll be bleeding and they don't know why and it's due to the low estrogen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, um, I've had Buck Angel on the podcast before. I love that dude and he... That's a perfect example of... You know, that's a trans man who is like clearly that's way better for him than to be a female. I mean, he's happy. It's like when you're around him, you're like, "Oh, that makes sense." Like you're a man and you know, we even had a conversation on the podcast, would you refer... He asked me, "Would you refer to me as a man?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course I would." Like you're a man. I guess you're not born a man biologically, doesn't mean I don't think you're a man. I mean he's covered in tattoos and he's jacked. He looks like a dude, seems like a dude, talks like a dude. I mean, I'm super comfortable with that. I've... I'm not a bigot, but I am confused. I'm confused by this narrative and the fact that everyone is being really bullied into adhering to it. It's... And it's... I don't understand the motivation for a lack of nuance and discussion. That's what drives me crazy and for some reason people think that if you are not personally trans, this should not be a subject that you cover and I'm like, "Listen, I'm a parent." I see what this is. Like children are... They're so easily influenced and by so many different factors. The i... And whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you can't tell me that there's no... That nothing is happening to these kids that is changing and affecting the way they perceive things, which is fine to... For the most part, but when it comes to radical life altering decisions, like changing your gender at 12 years old, like fuck, are you sure? Are you sure this is the right move? And why can't I talk about this? Like why is this so goddamn taboo? And the reason why it's so taboo is because they wanna bully you into not talking about it because when you do talk about it, it's exposed that it's not rock solid, that it is strange and that it... There is a problem.There are really trans people. There-- no one's in denial of that. You're not in denial, I'm not in denial. Th- I'm 100% comfortable with ... I want adults to be able to do whatever they want, but we're not talking about adults. You're talking about babies. You're talking about children, and that's when things get very, very strange to me. I just don't understand how many people adhering to this, and I think they're doing it out of cowardice. I think they're doing it out of fear of repercussions of these discussions. Even if you are clear in your intentions, and you're not hateful, and you have no y- d- y- there's no bigotry in your heart, it doesn't matter. They don't want you talking about it because they have a very specific narrative and they don't want anyone to stray from that, and if you do stray from that, they'll attack you.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And I, I get it, you know, I get some of the concerns in that. Yes, this information could potentially be used to hold trans people back. Some people could take this information and say, "Okay, well this means that no one should be allowed to transition ever." But I think, you know, we have to be, we have to be realistic about it. Y- and if you hide this information, what it does then for people who are not in favor of trans rights, they're going to l- find it and say, "See? This is why, this is why they hide this information," because th- it, it feeds into whatever negative ideas they have about the community. I'm totally open. I'll put it out there. I'm totally happy to talk to anyone from the community who would like to speak with me. I w- you know, I would love to build bridges and build understanding. Uh, I just feel like there's a lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust, and I understand where that's coming from, you know, but at the same time, I d- I don't know how else to solve this issue. Scientists also can't even do this research now because, uh, people get upset and say, "If you are not from this community, you should not be doing this research." And the whole purpose of the scientific method is to parse out any confounding, uh, factors, so it really should not matter w- what your identity is. If you're doing a study properly and rigorously, the findings that you find are as close of an approximation of the truth as you can get. So, it doesn't matter if you're part of the group you're studying or not. I understand, again, fear is p- I think some of the concern is that scientists have an agenda and they're doing this research as a way to invalidate trans people or, uh, you know, something like that, but I think y- you have to have faith that that's not m- especially in this climate, there's no way someone could get away with doing anything like that now. And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the, the narrative that activists want.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's a very strange time and I don't know where we go from here. I mean, I don't ... I, I never thought we would be here to, in a, in a place where there were these taboo subjects that are critical to the development and the growth of human beings and you can't discuss them. I mean, and w- how do we get past this? I d- I don't see a path out. I don't see a map of the territory that makes sense to me.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think what's going to happen, unfortunately, is that more of these children will be de-transitioning and changing their minds to the point where society's not gonna be able to ignore it. That's what I see coming.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) So, let's talk numbers. So, what, what I was saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of, of kids that have experienced rapid-onset gender dysphoria within the last 10 years. What did you ... what exactly are the numbers again?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, with i- within one study w- in particular, of the, of the individuals who were surveyed, the children, 40% of them had a gr- a friend group that had at least half of them identifying as transgender, and so this worked out to be 70 times what you would see in the general population. And I, I don't know how you can look at that and not think, "Something is, is going on here. There's something else going on here." It's, it's can't just be social acceptance because if it were, why is it we don't see this also happening in boys? Why do we not see this happening across different ages? It's very specific to adolescent girls and young women.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, y- you're a woman and you're a woman who, in many ways, you say you identify as being more masculine. W- what, uh, what do you think it is about growing up as a woman, and maybe you could speak to this because you did grow up and felt more masculine, what do you think it is that makes women more vulnerable to this?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think ... So I have been critical of feminist orthodoxy and, you know, I'll call things as I see it, but I do think, on some level, sexism does still exist in society. I don't think it's so terrible that women can't pursue what they wanna achieve in life, but I think for young women especially, when they c- encounter situations like this, or, uh, or they c- experience certain things they don't like because they are female, if they have the option of o- opting out of that, why wouldn't you? Y- you know, I feel like I almost can't blame them because, you know, there are certain things that women have to deal with that men don't have to deal with and vice versa. I think there are certain things that boys and men have to deal with growing up that women don't have to deal with. But I think it's because this is so socially acceptable now, and they're also, like you said, they're praised when they decide that they are, that they wanna come out as a man or they wanna identify as a third gender or they don't wanna be female, and I- I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of female rights and gender equality, why are we not saying it's, again, it's okay to be a woman and it's okay to feel this way, and let's support you in that instead of abandoning ship?
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think this is a phase that culture is going through?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
With th- this particular population?
- JRJoe Rogan
W-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Or are you thinking more broadly?
- JRJoe Rogan
With the leap, the leap w- in rapid-onset gender dysphoria, do you think that in many ways it might actually be connected to transphobia in that because there is transphobia, people are actively trying to combat it, so they're praising people who are trans which might encourage people who are socially awkward to think they are because they get encouraged f- for that, that they get ... a- and then maybe when we reach a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted just like people with blue eyes and brown eyes and whatever, no one cares anymore-... is that what it's gonna take for, for things to balance out and for us to actually find out? And is there a spectrum when it comes to trans people? Are there people that are mildly trans just like there's people that are, uh, you know, mildly masculine or people that are, like, uh, uh, very, very feminine, but also m- a man?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Uh, okay. Well, let me start with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... the first part of your question was why do people go along with this? I think, uh, part of it might be because it's more socially acceptable, right, and people don't wanna rock the boat. I think other people, uh, they mean well, and they think that this is, this is going to help the community and to tell people who counter this narrative, that they're hateful or whatever, that this is gonna somehow bring about positive change. Um, this, I forgo- I missed the second part of your question.
- JRJoe Rogan
I forgot it already.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
But... (laughs)
- 43:16 – 58:35
Clinical assessment vs. “conversion therapy” labels: differential diagnosis, autism fixation, and bans
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But then, uh, then if, uh, there's, if being trans is a spectrum, I don't know 'cause I'm not trans, so I don't wanna speak for trans people. But I, I think there are some people who, for whom transitioning is the right choice, and I think for some people, m- maybe they will be able to grow comfortable, right? And, uh, we can't talk about that. That's seen as transphobic. And, uh, also, this whole conversation about conversion therapy when there is no such thing as conversion therapy for gender identity. There's conversion therapy for sexual orientation, which I don't support because it's unethical and doesn't work. But if a clinician sits down with a child who says that they wanna be the opposite sex or they're gender dysphoric and, and they ask them, "What else is going on in your life to better understand that?" That's called conversion therapy now, and now that's being banned. I think that's been banned in something like 20 states. So now, now clinicians, again, can't do their job. That's a critical part of figuring out who's gonna benefit from transitioning.
- JRJoe Rogan
So conversion therapy, uh, when we think about it, we usually think about it when, in terms of gay people, right? Like, pray the gay away, that kind of shit. So-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right, that doesn't work.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course. Yeah. Well, it's usually run by gay guys too. It's w- it's, uh, there's usually religion involved, right? Um, but conversion therapy in terms of, of children, like, what d- what does that entail?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
You mean in terms of-
- JRJoe Rogan
When you were saying...
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... children with gender dysphoria?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, okay. So they've, uh... Activists, and now this is being written into law, it's called conversion therapy because it ha- it sounds scary. It's not, it's not the same thing as conversion therapy for sexual orientation because, again, sexual orientation is biological so it can't be changed. But for gender, for young children especially who say they feel like they're the opposite sex, gender is, is, that can change over time, as we see in the research that they will outgrow those feelings, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
So-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, it's not appropriate to call that conversion therapy because that's a n- that's a natural process that would've happened on its own. So for a clinician to sit down and just try to understand that, it should not be seen as somehow harmful, right? But it is seen as harmful. It's, it's seen as abusive.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if a, some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks them, "What's going on in your life? What, how do you feel?" That's considered conversion therapy? They're, uh, so whether, are they supposed to just, on this subject only, automatically go along with everything the ch- the child says whereas you wouldn't do it with any other issue that the child had that required therapy?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, exactly, but that is what's happening. There's no differential diagnosis because someone might present with, say, gender dysphoria, but there's a whole d- bunch of reasons why they might feel that way. You know, last time I w- spoke to you, we talked about how autism p- can play a big role and that sometimes, uh, people with autism, and I do think people with autism deserve love and respect, um, but sometimes one of the symptoms is, is fixating and having particular interests. And so, for these children especially, they might go through phases of being really into a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby, and then gender might also be one of these things. And my, my colleagues who are clinicians have noticed that, that for some of these kids, they, they fixate on gender for a bit and then they move onto something else.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was your motivation for writing this book? Like, what, what got you to actually sit down in front of the computer and start banging on the keys?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Uh, just all the questions that people have been asking me over the years about these subjects and the fact that I see so much misinformation being ingrained in our society. It's not even being questioned now. So say something like gender's a social construct, in 2017, James Damore wrote his Google memo, his infamous Google memo, um, I wrote a column for The Globe and Mail defending it. And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse. I see that reported everywhere, gender's a social construct, and then there's no, there's no quantitated, uh, quinat- quantitative evidence. There's no citations, nothing to back it up. You, people will just say that, and then they'll go on to whatever else they were saying. And this will be in, in scientific papers sometimes. This will be in journalism. And I'm thinking, "That's not factually accurate." So for me, it's this, this feeling that I get, I think, for some people who deny this science, particularly around gender, is coming from possibly good intentions, that they think this is what's, what we need to do to help move society forward, but I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that. Because when you try to hide the truth, you try to suppress reality, it doesn't go away.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I, and I think we can both agree that a lot of this narrative comes from this desire to avoid the criticism, d- d- desire to avoid the angry mob.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. I think so.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you said-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Because who, who wants to deal with that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Who wants to deal with that?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, uh, no one does.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you say gender's a social construct, people go, "Thank you." And then they're like, "Good. You've complied. You've complied with the narrative," and that's what it i- instead of going, "Well, what do you mean by that?" "What do I mean by that? What are you, a bigot?" And then all of a sudden, it's chaos, right? Then people are angry. Gender as a social construct is a weird thing to say. You know, and I've, I've, uh, I had weird conversations with people about it where they deny the difference between male and female, and I'm like, "Okay. Well, if you buy a puppy..."... and it's a boy puppy or a girl puppy, and you wanted a boy puppy, but it's a girl puppy, do you complain? Like, what happens there?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you say, "Gender's a social construct"? No, man. That, that, that's a girl puppy, bro. I mean, it's, it's, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings. With human beings, we've decided that we are so complex, we're so weird, that all the rules of standard biology that apply to all the other species on planet Earth do not apply to us.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, and then what's also frustrating is that people will then say, "Oh, the newest science shows that this is true." And I'm thinking, "What, what science are you talking about?" Right? But people will usually, at that point, say, "Okay. Well, I guess the newest science shows that, so what can you say?" So in the book, that's the thing. I, I provide citations to all the science so you can read it and make up your own mind. And if people are telling you something to the contrary, you can say, "Well, go look at this science."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that is a lovely one that people love to say, "The newest science..." Like, yeah, what? You can't just say that. Like, but you can. With a lot of people, you can, and they go, "Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know about that new science." (laughs) Like, science is just data. Science is repeating things and, and, and proving that they're repeatable, like showing patterns, showing information. Like, you can't say, "The newest science" without citing it.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, and, uh, you know, one of my close friends is Josh Barnett, and through the process of writing this book, I would say to him, "I feel like I'm standing outside and pointing at the sky and saying the sky is blue, and people are getting mad at me for saying that the sky is blue." That's, that's what it feels like, and that's what it's gonna be like, I think, when, when people start reading this book. And I ask anyone who... 'Cause the things I say are misconstrued all the time. People either, I think, are misrepresenting what I say. There are certain things that people say I say that I would never say. And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about w- where I stand on these issues, because I think a lot of the time, people, especially activists or people who are really in, um, invested in this, the, the way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda. And I'm thinking, "If you really care about these populations that you claim to care about, why would you not actually be going after the people who are actually hateful, who are actually saying the things that you claim I say?" And I think what a lot of it is, is about clout. It's not actually about making positive change.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, anybody who thinks gender is a social construct needs to meet Josh Barnett. That's a man.
- 58:35 – 1:04:52
Trans women, sexuality, and autogynephilia: controversial paraphilia framework and surgical outcomes
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you account for the seemingly large number of men who transition to become women who become lesbians?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That's a very good question, and I'm not sure if you read that part of the book.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I didn't.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, okay. So it's very, very controversial, and before I say anything about this I wanna, I wanna really make clear, I do not want this information to be used to hold back trans people. Um, I don't want this to be used to support negative stereotypes about trans women in particular, but for some trans indi- trans women, their desire to transition stems from sexual arousal and the idea that becoming a woman is actually sexually arousing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So I... yeah. And I chose to write about this because I, again, I have so many people who reach out to me saying that they experience this and they don't know what it is, and it's called autogynephilia, which translates... that's a Greek word to say love of oneself as a woman, and it's a paraphilia which is an unusual sexual preference. And paraphilias were my re- research expertise when I was in academia. So I really... I wrote about this and no one has really talked about this in the mainstream, and because I want people who feel this way to be able to understand themselves and to know there's a whole bunch of information out there for you. If you Google this, everything that comes out is that this is not a real phenomenon, you know, this is made up by hateful sex researchers to invalidate, um, trans people, this is "outdated medical research," this is pseudoscience. It's not. Everyone in the field knows it's real, including clinicians who work with patients with gender dysphoria, including people who work with adults with gender dysphoria, just no one will say it because they are absolutely terrified.
- JRJoe Rogan
So wh- ... this is where it's confusing to me because if you do transition, if you're a male and you transition to female, if you are aroused by the idea of being a female and you're aroused by women, so you want to become a lesbian essentially, but you... if you transition surgically-... you're gonna remove your ability to have an orgasm. You're gonna, you're gonna remove your ability to even be aroused as a male would be.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Not, not necessarily. Some people are able to maintain their sexual functioning after surgery, but not e- not everyone necessarily has bottom surgery also. Some people might just choose to have top surgery or might choose to undergo hormonal interventions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Okay, okay, so we're talking about very different things, right? So when, when, so there's, would you agree (laughs) there's a spectrum in regards to trans people? So there's trans people that are fully transitioned to look and appear 100% female, even naked, versus someone who is trans, not denying that they're trans, but they still have a penis, a functioning penis.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think there are differences in terms of outcome, yeah, in terms of what's beneficial for people. That's what I would say.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I know of at least one, uh, no, I know of two that became lesbians and did have bottom surgery. So if that was the thing that, i- if that was what excited them, this idea of being a woman, like sexually excited them, once you transition and have bottom surgery, uh, uh, am I right in saying that you can't have orgasms?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No. The, some, some men are able to have, some people are still able to have orgasms after.
- JRJoe Rogan
How are they doing that?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, because the, the tissue is inverted, so it's not like, you can still maintain some of the, the sensation.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they don't have testicles anymore, right?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, but they're still a- they still have the nerve endings.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they still have the feeling of ejaculation?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, no, no, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, but that's a male orgasm, right? So they have a female-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But you still, they, it's, can still feel pleasurable though.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, feels good but they don't orgasm. Because you cannot say that to a woman-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... you cannot say, "Oh, you orgasmed. It felt good, right? Well, you did, you orgasmed."
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
They would get mad at you, right? They would say, "No, I didn't orgasm."
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I, I have, I have not undergone the surgery so I can't speak from experience, but I have heard people say that they are able to maintain orgasm after.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you believe them?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I, I do. I do. It's-
- 1:04:52 – 1:16:34
Research constraints and cross-cultural patterns: funding, Thailand ‘ladyboys,’ and Iran’s coercive incentives
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) How difficult is it to do research on this subject today?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Impossible. (laughs) No, it's not, it's not absolutely impossible. It's very, very, very difficult and I can probably count on maybe a few fingers the number of people I know who are doing it and are not ideological and or ethical as scientists and have no agenda and have no, they're not trying to push any particular findings. They're just doing the research as a good scientist would to see what they find.
- JRJoe Rogan
And these people that are doing this i- are, uh, are they primarily in the United States? Are they, uh, are there other countries that have different perspectives on this where they're, they're more open to this kind of research and just, just purely from a scientific standpoint trying to get an understanding of what's actually happening?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Most are in North America. Um, it really just depends I think also on where you're able to get funding, so that's one of the key issues, right, in terms of the research you do. If you can't g- get your study funded, then you can't, you can't do anything. So, uh, we're very lucky in Canada. I would say we have a really good, um, my colleagues have been able to get funding quite readily here. But it's more the political climate I think that is really turning people away from studying subjects that would be of interest and that I think are very important.
- JRJoe Rogan
W- what do you attribute, when you see a culture like Thailand for instance that has a large number of like ladyboys, what, what do you think causes that? Is that an attitude difference? Is it a, uh, cultural difference? Is it a biological difference? Or is it just a myth that there are a larger percentage of, uh, transsexuals in certain places?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
If, if there are, is a larger percentage of people who are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I mean, I don't know, they're known for it.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... trans- transition, right, I would think it could be culturally determined in some ways too because there are some cultures where being a feminine, someone who's born male who's very feminine-... may be encouraged to transition because it's more acceptable to be a feminine woman. And I do think for, if we go back to the children, I do think for some of the parents who are in support of allowing their child to transition, I think it is coming from homophobia because their sense is that if they have a very feminine son over a masculine daughter, I think more so for the feminine sons, they- if they don't want a gay son, well, if this child transitions to female, then she will appear to be a straight woman when she's attracted to men when she gets older.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was... I had a conversation with someone where they were praising Iran, and they were saying Iran is less homophobic, or excuse me, less transphobic than the United States. And they were talking about how many people transition over there. And I was like, "Do you know why?" It's because they literally can be thrown in jail if they're gay men. I mean, this is why they're do- they- one of the reasons why in some Middle Eastern countries they transition is because there's actually laws against homosexuality. So for homosexual men, they're left with a couple options. The, the possibility of being thrown in jail or sexually transitioning.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And so what did this person say when you brought that up?
- JRJoe Rogan
Stammered.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
The- there's nowhere to go with it. I mean, sometimes people like to say things because they have a thought in their head that they think, you know, they haven't really fleshed it out and they're like, "Well, this is... L- l- look at this." Well, you know, some places in the Middle East are very open-minded, and I was like, "That's not open-minded." Like, they're homophobic. They, they, they want these people to appear to be women. And it's just, you know, it's, it's very unfortunate. I think there are trans people, and I think there are homo- homosexual people, and they're different. And I think the only way we're gonna find out who's who and what's what and let people make, like, a real, honest, balanced choice is to have no bigotry. And that includes bigotry of information, that i- that includes keeping people from discussing and exploring subjects without hate, which is what you're doing. And this is why it's so crazy that people are attacking you and they go after your work, because I think in many ways, people that are on the fence about this stuff, it- it- it throws them to the wrong side. It makes people possibly transphobic that might not be, because they read the, "Like, these people are fucking crazy. I'm not for them. Oh no, those trans people are all crazy." And they'll just start saying things like that because they'll see some of the reactions to your work that they know are inaccurate, that they know are radically biased.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, I've had some trans people reach out to me saying that, that the things that some of these activists stand for are not things that they would have ever asked for, and they say that they're actually quite mortified that these are the things that some people, not even trans activists, I think some allies even, some people who are not transgender who decide to take it upon themselves to speak for the community because they think that's, I guess, the right thing to do. And actual trans people are saying that, "Don't... You don't speak for us. We don't want these things that you are saying." It's about, it's about power, I think. It's about power and control, and it's not even about the people that they claim to be protecting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think it's also about conformity. People... There's a thing that people do when they are something, whether they're a right-wing Trump supporter, they want everybody to be a right-wing Trump supporter, and they wanna argue that position. And I think they, I think people do that with everything. I think they do it with being a vegetarian or a vegan. I think they do it with being a yogi. I think they just love other people doing exactly what they're doing. And I think, unfortunately, that is also the case when it comes to ch- some trans activists. They want, uh, they want more trans people out there.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right, because... And I can see that logic, because by inflating the number of people who identify this way... And so also with the trans umbrella, it's now widened to also include third genders, or anyone who is even gender-non- just simply gender-nonconforming. So, I think part of this is driven by the desire to inflate numbers so that that can, in their mind, justify acceptance. But I don't see why we can't just say, "Yes, look, we should accept everyone." We don't have to call people trans, and we don't have to widen the definition of what it means to be trans. And even within the community, you have people who are trans who have transitioned, who have medically transitioned, who are saying people who identify as a third gender or who are m- mildly gender-nonconforming, they're not the same as me, and it's not appropriate to say we're the same. And again, from, from my perspective, if someone is struggling with their feelings around gender, it's not helpful to lump them all as one because, again, they're coming from different root causes. So if you can't talk about what the root cause is, you're not gonna help someone.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I, I would agree, and I think that one of the things we might be encountering here is that the acceptance of this is fairly novel. And the, the, the new perception of trans people, this new, new acceptance of it, is we're working it out, you know? And I think in the process of working it out, you've got a lot of virtue signaling, you've got a lot of people that are conforming and then not exactly sure what they're conforming to. And we're trying to figure out how, uh, you know, how to determine what's, what's natural, what's not, what's right, what's wrong, what, what, what, what's healthy for people, what's not, what's hateful, what's not hateful. There's just so much confusion. And in the middle of this chaos, it's very difficult to sort it out.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, and I think also when you're saying with what's natural, I think some people... Part of the push with the children is to say, "Look, if, if kids are feeling this way and society accepts this in children, then again, this is something that people can't, people can't argue against," right? I think and part of... It's part of a larger goal to facilitate acceptance for adults as well. And again, there's no reason why we can't do that. We don't have to...Tokenize these children as a way to do that.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the argument for doing it with children? Is the argument that the earlier they transition, the quicker they'll be happy? The, the more time they'll spend in the gender that they belong to, rather than the gender of their birth?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right. And also, that if they block puberty, that they will not go through these physiological changes that are gonna make it more difficult for them to identify as the opposite sex.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, this is a really dis- th- th- One of the things that was disturbing to me that didn't make any goddamn sense, was people saying that you can block their hormones and then if they change their mind, you, it's easily reversible. And I'm like, "You don't understand human development. That's crazy to say that." Now, recently, that's been disavowed. Now recently, there wa- was... I forget what scientific body came out and-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think it's n- the, the NHS in the UK.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Eh, I think you're right. And they said, "No. Well, actually no." When, when you ... There's radical changes to the body that are irreversible when you block hormones at a very young age. I had this conversation with someone on the podcast just el- al- a year or so ago, where they were saying, "Well, you ... If the, the child changes their, their opinion, you could always reverse." And I'm like, "What? What are you talking about?" If you're introducing estrogen to a six-year-old and you're telling me when they're 14, it's gonna be the same as if they didn't introduce estrogen, they didn't block their hormones, that's crazy talk. But that shows to me where people's minds are when it comes to this. They want something to be true, so, and they argue it as if it's true, and then it goes along with this whole conforming- conformity thing, where everybody has to conform to show that they are on the right side of this ideology, and that if you don't, you'll be attacked.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, the thing is too, this is what is being promoted, right, in the mainstream, in terms of anything to do with trans issues. This is what you see, is that these blockers are perfectly... We don't, we don't have the data. We don't know what the long-term effects are, and, uh, it's... I, what I wanna know is why the parents are not being told this, right? That those changes were made. Are, were the parents who have signed off on this treatment, were they made aware of the fact that these guidelines have been changed, right? These are things that people in the field have been very critical of, but this has not been discussed more widely. So now that these, this has been changed publicly, do all the parents who have signed on for this treatment know that? I don't think any of them do because no one reported on it.
Episode duration: 2:01:52
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Transcript of episode j9NeQTkJjIs
