Joe Rogan Experience #1520 - Dr. Debra Soh

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Three, two, uh. Hello,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Three, two, uh. Hello, Debra.

   2. DSDr. Debra Soh0:05

      Hi.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      We were just talking, you're locked up in Toronto. You were thinking about flying here, but they fill the planes now, you were saying, which is a little disturbing. I did not know they're doing that.

   4. DSDr. Debra Soh0:17

      Yeah, they usually would leave the middle seat open, but, uh, as of about a month or so ago, they book it fully now. So, I was super excited. I'm, I'm so sad that I can't be there with you because I've been counting down the days, and I was thinking, "I have to at least be in LA to do Joe's show." But I was just a bit scared.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      Yeah, well, it's scary. It's weird. I mean,, uh, how many people have you known that have caught it now?

   6. DSDr. Debra Soh0:38

      Actually, nobody.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:39

      Whoa.

   8. DSDr. Debra Soh0:40

      Isn't that wild?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      That's crazy.

   10. DSDr. Debra Soh0:41

       Everybody I know knows at least one or two people. I don't know anyone, so I'm very, very lucky.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       I'm up to nine friends, nine friends have gotten it. And...

   12. DSDr. Debra Soh0:49

       Wild.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Yeah. Two of them got it bad.

   14. DSDr. Debra Soh0:52

       Mm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Yeah, two of them got it really bad, to the point where they were hospitalized. Um, but...

   16. DSDr. Debra Soh0:57

       Wow.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Yeah. It's, uh... One of them was an older guy, and one of them is a guy who was 45 who just was run... My friend, Michael Yeo, who was just rundown. He was, like, just really exhausted from too much traveling and too much... I mean, it was really a crazy schedule that he was on, and he wound up catching it. He, he got, he had it bad. He was hospitalized for a week.

   18. DSDr. Debra Soh1:16

       Oh, no. Is he doing okay now?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Yeah. He's fine now. Um, but his endurance is really low. Like his, uh, lung capacity suffered. It's-

   20. DSDr. Debra Soh1:25

       That's the thing because when this happened, uh, I felt like, "Okay, everything has to stop, and I have to take care of myself just to..." We take it for granted, right, when you're healthy, but the minute something like this happens, you... This is something that I would have never even thought about

   21. NANarrator1:36

       (...)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Are you taking a lot of, of vitamin D?

   23. DSDr. Debra Soh1:40

       No, I'm actually... Everyone has been telling me to take vitamin D.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:43

       Yeah.

   25. DSDr. Debra Soh1:43

       I take omega.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       Well, that's good, um, but you should, you should really... Vitamin C and vitamin D are critical, and zinc. Zinc is critical. Um, but vitamin D, in particular. They did a study, uh, several studies actually. Uh, Dr. Rhonda Patrick was on the podcast talking about it, and she said that there was several studies that showed that in the people that were in the ICU with COVID, more than 80% of them were insufficient in their vitamin D levels, and only 4% were sufficient.

   27. DSDr. Debra Soh2:11

       Hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Yeah. So it's not... It's n- You know, it's not a prevent-all. It's not, it's not provable, you know, but it's, there's, there's gotta be some sort of a correlation.

   29. DSDr. Debra Soh2:20

       I feel like if you're giving me personalized advice, I should probably take it 'cause I'm sure a lot of people would pay a lot of money for those.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:26

       Um, I don't think they would. I think you're wrong.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, I think this…

   1. DSDr. Debra Soh15:00

      after researchers saw what happened to Mike, I mean, I- in the book I talk about the things that they did to him, some of them were very unethical really. They really tried to ruin him professionally and- and his personal reputation as well. And so after that, people said, "Well, you- I'm not touching this subject because it's just not worth it." And so anyone who has tried to counter trans activists since then also faced really serious, you know, repercussions. So, I think that's been part of it. And I think also with- more broadly with this ideology, that students are being taught this and they graduate, they go out into the real world, they get jobs, and a lot of people even five years ago, I would say, dismissed a lot of this ideology, especially around gender. They would say, "That's only in academia. That is not something that's actually gonna affect me in my, you know, real life." But here it is now. It's- it affects everybody. There's no way that you- this is not affecting you. I think it's just a question of how much do you pay attention to it. You know, people send me messages, they tell me about when they have training at work, they tell me about their kids' education. Like at the book, I don't just talk about transitioning children, I talk about the idea that gender is not a social construct, it is not a spectrum. I talk about how it- there is a relation between gender identity and sexual orientation, which you're also supposed to not say, apparently. Um, I talk about sex differences, you know? Uh, and these are all things that are considered taboo and I don't understand w- I don't understand why we can't just have a fact-based conversation. We're not saying that this information justifies discrimination against people. In fact, I'm always very clear to say that it doesn't.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:31

      Well, I think this is one of the reasons why you're so important, because you're obviously a very intelligent, kind person and you're not a hateful person and you- you're- you're not in any way discriminating. You're looking at this as a scientist and you're looking at this as a person who is very frustrated by the fact that you can't discuss science, particularly when it comes to really critical aspects of people's lives, which is sex and gender. I would love to talk to you about what you just said, though. When you said that there's no- not a spectrum when it comes to gender, that's a common narrative. So, what do you- what do you mean by that, like there's not a spectrum?

   3. DSDr. Debra Soh17:05

      So, there are two genders and ... so gender, for 99% of us, our biological sex is our gender. Biological sex is determined by gametes, which are either eggs or sperm. So, there are no intermediate gametes, so gender is either male or female. So thi- this I do not think validates the existence of intersex people or transgender people, I think we can advocate for equal rights for those communities, we don't have to reconceptualize what gender or sex are and- and also for intersex people in particular, most of them want to live within the binary. They want to live as either male or female. They don't want- they don't want gender or sex to be collapsed into, uh, a- a kaleidoscope or a galaxy or whatever else. I mean, this is what's being published in scientific papers now. They refer to gender as, quite literally, a galaxy. So (laughs) -

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:54

      (laughs)

   5. DSDr. Debra Soh17:54

      ... I mean, it's- it's ridiculous.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:56

      That's pretty crazy. Not just a spectrum, but a galaxy? 250 billion types? (laughs)

   7. DSDr. Debra Soh18:02

      Oh, and there- there's all kinds. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:02

      Is that what it's like? Like, all the stars? That's crazy.

   9. DSDr. Debra Soh18:05

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       Um, when you- when you say there's-... there, there's just two genders. Uh, first of all, that's gonna enrage people, right?

   11. DSDr. Debra Soh18:11

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       But second of all, you w- you can see that there are very feminine men and very masculine women, and if th- if that is true, what, what accounts for that?

   13. DSDr. Debra Soh18:23

       It goes back to the prenatal environment. So I definitely don't deny that there are gender-atypical people. I, as a woman, I look very feminine, but I'm actually very gender-atypical. I've always felt more masculine, and even to this day, I feel much more masculine than feminine, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:36

       Wait a minute. You... Wait. Hold on a second. You feel masculine?

   15. DSDr. Debra Soh18:39

       Uh-huh. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:39

       Really? That's crazy. You don't seem-

   17. DSDr. Debra Soh18:42

       Yeah. You would never know.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Oh my God, you don't even seem remotely masculine. Like, what, what determines that you are masculine?

   19. DSDr. Debra Soh18:49

       I, I would say, well, from a young age, I'd always been more like boys. I looked like a boy when I was younger. I've always just... My friends were always boys and guys, and I've always felt... I've just always felt more like a man, just like you feel like a man, right? I- it's, it's... Gender's one of those things, in terms of how we describe it, is so personal, and that's why I feel it's so important to focus on the evidence, because without that, what do you really have? So it... What it really... What it comes down to is the testosterone exposure in the womb.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:17

       Right, but how are you-

   21. DSDr. Debra Soh19:18

       So-

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:18

       ... how are you like a man?

   23. DSDr. Debra Soh19:22

       If you see... Well, how can I say this? It's hard for me to not go in and digging into personal examples, right? Uh, but I would just say I've always been more like boys. If you look at how boys behave and how girls behave, I've always been more like the boys.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       Okay. Like, in, like, your interests and your into fast cars and-

   25. DSDr. Debra Soh19:40

       Interests, my behavior. I was... I'm into fighting, right? I w- I've been-

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       Right.

   27. DSDr. Debra Soh19:43

       ... a martial artist. When I was young especially, I used to always get into fistfights with the boys, and I would actually win.

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:50

       Really? (laughs) But you're... That's hilarious, 'cause you seem very feminine to me. That's very odd.

   29. DSDr. Debra Soh19:55

       Hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:55

       Okay.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Even with rapid onset…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      wrong with you. And that's where, that's where I'm really very thankful that there's people like you that push back on this, that are brave enough to do that.

   2. DSDr. Debra Soh30:08

      Even with rapid onset gender dysphoria, so I mean, this is documented in research, right? And even still, that's, that's considered, um, a quote unquote "myth." That's... They, people say, like I write about this in the book, people are saying that people who decide to detransition, they were not really trans or they didn't really have gender dysphoria or, you know, they just dismiss them. And I'm thinking, this movement especially is so much into how you feel and your live, quote unquote "lived experience" and being validated for who you are. So how can you say that to a group of people who say, "This is what I experienced"? You know, they're completely... And the way they're being also ignored by the medical, medical professionals and told that essentially if they change their mind, "Well, that's your problem. You deal with it now." And the, the detransitioners I talk to, it's... I'm really, really aghast at, at what, what is happening because they really have nowhere to turn.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:01

      It's also the options, if you wanna transition, in terms of what's available today in 2020, they're... I'm trying to say this gently. They're very surgically crude. Like you, you have to... There has to be cutting involved. There has to be anesthesia. There's a lot going on. I can't wait for the day where, whether it's through CRISPR or some other form of genetic manipulation, you really can become a woman or you really can become a biological man or a biological woman, where we can un... We have a grasp of the biology to the point where science can actually alter the person's chromosomes, alter who they are. I mean, that's gonna be fantastic because I think that's gonna eliminate so much and so many problems. But I mean, you know, what are we? Hundreds of years away from that? I mean, I don't know. But for now, my fear is what you have said previously and you said earlier on this podcast that you're gonna see a wave of lawsuits.

   4. DSDr. Debra Soh32:07

      Yeah. And it's gonna be really, really sad. And I think these children will be saying, "Why did my parents allow me to do this? Why did medical professionals not question me, not stop and think about this?" I mean, children say all kinds of things and it's really scary to me that adults are taking the things that they say at face value.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:28

      Yeah. Um, when Abigail told me that in some places, you can self-diagnose as being trans at... As young as 15 and you can go to-

   6. DSDr. Debra Soh32:39

      Oh, you can, yeah, you can get... 'Cause medical consent, it depends on the age of medical consent. So if... In some places, like I believe Oregon, it's like 15.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:45

      Yeah.

   8. DSDr. Debra Soh32:46

      So you can go without, without parental consent.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:49

      And they'll give you testosterone.

   10. DSDr. Debra Soh32:49

       But even still, a lot of cases, these interventions are started even younger if the parents, the parents will sign off on it. I've heard of girls, people born female as young as age 12 getting double mastectomies.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Wow. Wow. Um, the thing that drove me crazy is the fact that you don't even have to have any counseling, anything. You self-diagnose and they'll give you testosterone. I mean, that seems, that seems insane. That seems like there's some sort of an agenda. I mean, it, it... Whether it's just woke ideology or whatever it is that would allow a doctor to think that's a good idea. I just, I don't understand what, what kind of a lack of understanding of young people. I mean, you're not, you're not even fully formed. Your frontal lobe isn't even fully formed and you're making these radical decisions at 15 years of age.

   12. DSDr. Debra Soh33:39

       With testosterone too. So I wanna... I spoke with Buck Angel. I interviewed him for the book. He was amazing. And he actually has a website. I wanna make sure I get it right actually. I should have... I think it's ftmhealth.com. He has information because he was saying to me how transgender care and health really needs to be improved and a lot of medical professionals will prescribe testosterone and they do not fully understand one of the side effects is uterine cramping and atrophy. So for these individuals, when they start taking it, they start, they'll be cramping, they'll be in a lot of pain, they'll be bleeding and they don't know why and it's due to the low estrogen.

   13. JRJoe Rogan34:15

       Well, um, I've had Buck Angel on the podcast before. I love that dude and he... That's a perfect example of... You know, that's a trans man who is like clearly that's way better for him than to be a female. I mean, he's happy. It's like when you're around him, you're like, "Oh, that makes sense." Like you're a man and you know, we even had a conversation on the podcast, would you refer... He asked me, "Would you refer to me as a man?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course I would." Like you're a man. I guess you're not born a man biologically, doesn't mean I don't think you're a man. I mean he's covered in tattoos and he's jacked. He looks like a dude, seems like a dude, talks like a dude. I mean, I'm super comfortable with that. I've... I'm not a bigot, but I am confused. I'm confused by this narrative and the fact that everyone is being really bullied into adhering to it. It's... And it's... I don't understand the motivation for a lack of nuance and discussion. That's what drives me crazy and for some reason people think that if you are not personally trans, this should not be a subject that you cover and I'm like, "Listen, I'm a parent." I see what this is. Like children are... They're so easily influenced and by so many different factors. The i... And whether it's culturally or socially or locally, whatever environment they're in, you can't tell me that there's no... That nothing is happening to these kids that is changing and affecting the way they perceive things, which is fine to... For the most part, but when it comes to radical life altering decisions, like changing your gender at 12 years old, like fuck, are you sure? Are you sure this is the right move? And why can't I talk about this? Like why is this so goddamn taboo? And the reason why it's so taboo is because they wanna bully you into not talking about it because when you do talk about it, it's exposed that it's not rock solid, that it is strange and that it... There is a problem.There are really trans people. There-- no one's in denial of that. You're not in denial, I'm not in denial. Th- I'm 100% comfortable with ... I want adults to be able to do whatever they want, but we're not talking about adults. You're talking about babies. You're talking about children, and that's when things get very, very strange to me. I just don't understand how many people adhering to this, and I think they're doing it out of cowardice. I think they're doing it out of fear of repercussions of these discussions. Even if you are clear in your intentions, and you're not hateful, and you have no y- d- y- there's no bigotry in your heart, it doesn't matter. They don't want you talking about it because they have a very specific narrative and they don't want anyone to stray from that, and if you do stray from that, they'll attack you.

   14. DSDr. Debra Soh37:04

       And I, I get it, you know, I get some of the concerns in that. Yes, this information could potentially be used to hold trans people back. Some people could take this information and say, "Okay, well this means that no one should be allowed to transition ever." But I think, you know, we have to be, we have to be realistic about it. Y- and if you hide this information, what it does then for people who are not in favor of trans rights, they're going to l- find it and say, "See? This is why, this is why they hide this information," because th- it, it feeds into whatever negative ideas they have about the community. I'm totally open. I'll put it out there. I'm totally happy to talk to anyone from the community who would like to speak with me. I w- you know, I would love to build bridges and build understanding. Uh, I just feel like there's a lot of animosity and a lot of mistrust, and I understand where that's coming from, you know, but at the same time, I d- I don't know how else to solve this issue. Scientists also can't even do this research now because, uh, people get upset and say, "If you are not from this community, you should not be doing this research." And the whole purpose of the scientific method is to parse out any confounding, uh, factors, so it really should not matter w- what your identity is. If you're doing a study properly and rigorously, the findings that you find are as close of an approximation of the truth as you can get. So, it doesn't matter if you're part of the group you're studying or not. I understand, again, fear is p- I think some of the concern is that scientists have an agenda and they're doing this research as a way to invalidate trans people or, uh, you know, something like that, but I think y- you have to have faith that that's not m- especially in this climate, there's no way someone could get away with doing anything like that now. And in fact, legitimate studies are being pulled now just because they do not fit the, the narrative that activists want.

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:47

       Yeah, it's a very strange time and I don't know where we go from here. I mean, I don't ... I, I never thought we would be here to, in a, in a place where there were these taboo subjects that are critical to the development and the growth of human beings and you can't discuss them. I mean, and w- how do we get past this? I d- I don't see a path out. I don't see a map of the territory that makes sense to me.

   16. DSDr. Debra Soh39:12

       I think what's going to happen, unfortunately, is that more of these children will be de-transitioning and changing their minds to the point where society's not gonna be able to ignore it. That's what I see coming.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:23

       (sighs) So, let's talk numbers. So, what, what I was saying that Abigail had said was that there's some astounding number of, of kids that have experienced rapid-onset gender dysphoria within the last 10 years. What did you ... what exactly are the numbers again?

   18. DSDr. Debra Soh39:40

       So, with i- within one study w- in particular, of the, of the individuals who were surveyed, the children, 40% of them had a gr- a friend group that had at least half of them identifying as transgender, and so this worked out to be 70 times what you would see in the general population. And I, I don't know how you can look at that and not think, "Something is, is going on here. There's something else going on here." It's, it's can't just be social acceptance because if it were, why is it we don't see this also happening in boys? Why do we not see this happening across different ages? It's very specific to adolescent girls and young women.

   19. JRJoe Rogan40:17

       Now, y- you're a woman and you're a woman who, in many ways, you say you identify as being more masculine. W- what, uh, what do you think it is about growing up as a woman, and maybe you could speak to this because you did grow up and felt more masculine, what do you think it is that makes women more vulnerable to this?

   20. DSDr. Debra Soh40:37

       I think ... So I have been critical of feminist orthodoxy and, you know, I'll call things as I see it, but I do think, on some level, sexism does still exist in society. I don't think it's so terrible that women can't pursue what they wanna achieve in life, but I think for young women especially, when they c- encounter situations like this, or, uh, or they c- experience certain things they don't like because they are female, if they have the option of o- opting out of that, why wouldn't you? Y- you know, I feel like I almost can't blame them because, you know, there are certain things that women have to deal with that men don't have to deal with and vice versa. I think there are certain things that boys and men have to deal with growing up that women don't have to deal with. But I think it's because this is so socially acceptable now, and they're also, like you said, they're praised when they decide that they are, that they wanna come out as a man or they wanna identify as a third gender or they don't wanna be female, and I- I'm actually really appalled because I think especially in this time where we are very much in favor of female rights and gender equality, why are we not saying it's, again, it's okay to be a woman and it's okay to feel this way, and let's support you in that instead of abandoning ship?

   21. JRJoe Rogan41:42

       Do you think this is a phase that culture is going through?

   22. DSDr. Debra Soh41:48

       With th- this particular population?

   23. JRJoe Rogan41:51

       W-

   24. DSDr. Debra Soh41:51

       Or are you thinking more broadly?

   25. JRJoe Rogan41:51

       With the leap, the leap w- in rapid-onset gender dysphoria, do you think that in many ways it might actually be connected to transphobia in that because there is transphobia, people are actively trying to combat it, so they're praising people who are trans which might encourage people who are socially awkward to think they are because they get encouraged f- for that, that they get ... a- and then maybe when we reach a point where there no longer is this problem in our culture and trans people are accepted just like people with blue eyes and brown eyes and whatever, no one cares anymore-... is that what it's gonna take for, for things to balance out and for us to actually find out? And is there a spectrum when it comes to trans people? Are there people that are mildly trans just like there's people that are, uh, you know, mildly masculine or people that are, like, uh, uh, very, very feminine, but also m- a man?

   26. DSDr. Debra Soh42:48

       Uh, okay. Well, let me start with-

   27. JRJoe Rogan42:50

       Okay.

   28. DSDr. Debra Soh42:50

       ... the first part of your question was why do people go along with this? I think, uh, part of it might be because it's more socially acceptable, right, and people don't wanna rock the boat. I think other people, uh, they mean well, and they think that this is, this is going to help the community and to tell people who counter this narrative, that they're hateful or whatever, that this is gonna somehow bring about positive change. Um, this, I forgo- I missed the second part of your question.

   29. JRJoe Rogan43:14

       I forgot it already.

   30. DSDr. Debra Soh43:15

       (laughs)
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   So- …

   1. DSDr. Debra Soh45:00

      the research that they will outgrow those feelings, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      So-

   3. DSDr. Debra Soh45:02

      So, it's not appropriate to call that conversion therapy because that's a n- that's a natural process that would've happened on its own. So for a clinician to sit down and just try to understand that, it should not be seen as somehow harmful, right? But it is seen as harmful. It's, it's seen as abusive.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:22

      So if a, some sort of a psychologist sits down with a child and asks them, "What's going on in your life? What, how do you feel?" That's considered conversion therapy? They're, uh, so whether, are they supposed to just, on this subject only, automatically go along with everything the ch- the child says whereas you wouldn't do it with any other issue that the child had that required therapy?

   5. DSDr. Debra Soh45:48

      No, exactly, but that is what's happening. There's no differential diagnosis because someone might present with, say, gender dysphoria, but there's a whole d- bunch of reasons why they might feel that way. You know, last time I w- spoke to you, we talked about how autism p- can play a big role and that sometimes, uh, people with autism, and I do think people with autism deserve love and respect, um, but sometimes one of the symptoms is, is fixating and having particular interests. And so, for these children especially, they might go through phases of being really into a certain toy or really into something else or another hobby, and then gender might also be one of these things. And my, my colleagues who are clinicians have noticed that, that for some of these kids, they, they fixate on gender for a bit and then they move onto something else.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:29

      What was your motivation for writing this book? Like, what, what got you to actually sit down in front of the computer and start banging on the keys?

   7. DSDr. Debra Soh46:36

      Uh, just all the questions that people have been asking me over the years about these subjects and the fact that I see so much misinformation being ingrained in our society. It's not even being questioned now. So say something like gender's a social construct, in 2017, James Damore wrote his Google memo, his infamous Google memo, um, I wrote a column for The Globe and Mail defending it. And since then, it's just been, it's just gotten worse. I see that reported everywhere, gender's a social construct, and then there's no, there's no quantitated, uh, quinat- quantitative evidence. There's no citations, nothing to back it up. You, people will just say that, and then they'll go on to whatever else they were saying. And this will be in, in scientific papers sometimes. This will be in journalism. And I'm thinking, "That's not factually accurate." So for me, it's this, this feeling that I get, I think, for some people who deny this science, particularly around gender, is coming from possibly good intentions, that they think this is what's, what we need to do to help move society forward, but I see there being a lot of negative repercussions as a result of that. Because when you try to hide the truth, you try to suppress reality, it doesn't go away.

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:43

      And I, and I think we can both agree that a lot of this narrative comes from this desire to avoid the criticism, d- d- desire to avoid the angry mob.

   9. DSDr. Debra Soh47:55

      Yeah. I think so.

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:56

       So when you said-

   11. DSDr. Debra Soh47:57

       Because who, who wants to deal with that?

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       Yes.

   13. DSDr. Debra Soh47:59

       Who wants to deal with that?

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:00

       No, uh, no one does.

   15. DSDr. Debra Soh48:01

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:01

       So when you say gender's a social construct, people go, "Thank you." And then they're like, "Good. You've complied. You've complied with the narrative," and that's what it i- instead of going, "Well, what do you mean by that?" "What do I mean by that? What are you, a bigot?" And then all of a sudden, it's chaos, right? Then people are angry. Gender as a social construct is a weird thing to say. You know, and I've, I've, uh, I had weird conversations with people about it where they deny the difference between male and female, and I'm like, "Okay. Well, if you buy a puppy..."... and it's a boy puppy or a girl puppy, and you wanted a boy puppy, but it's a girl puppy, do you complain? Like, what happens there?

   17. DSDr. Debra Soh48:36

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:36

       Do you say, "Gender's a social construct"? No, man. That, that, that's a girl puppy, bro. I mean, it's, it's, it is what it is, but it's not with human beings. With human beings, we've decided that we are so complex, we're so weird, that all the rules of standard biology that apply to all the other species on planet Earth do not apply to us.

   19. DSDr. Debra Soh48:56

       Yeah, and then what's also frustrating is that people will then say, "Oh, the newest science shows that this is true." And I'm thinking, "What, what science are you talking about?" Right? But people will usually, at that point, say, "Okay. Well, I guess the newest science shows that, so what can you say?" So in the book, that's the thing. I, I provide citations to all the science so you can read it and make up your own mind. And if people are telling you something to the contrary, you can say, "Well, go look at this science."

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:19

       Yeah, that is a lovely one that people love to say, "The newest science..." Like, yeah, what? You can't just say that. Like, but you can. With a lot of people, you can, and they go, "Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know about that new science." (laughs) Like, science is just data. Science is repeating things and, and, and proving that they're repeatable, like showing patterns, showing information. Like, you can't say, "The newest science" without citing it.

   21. DSDr. Debra Soh49:43

       No, and, uh, you know, one of my close friends is Josh Barnett, and through the process of writing this book, I would say to him, "I feel like I'm standing outside and pointing at the sky and saying the sky is blue, and people are getting mad at me for saying that the sky is blue." That's, that's what it feels like, and that's what it's gonna be like, I think, when, when people start reading this book. And I ask anyone who... 'Cause the things I say are misconstrued all the time. People either, I think, are misrepresenting what I say. There are certain things that people say I say that I would never say. And I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about w- where I stand on these issues, because I think a lot of the time, people, especially activists or people who are really in, um, invested in this, the, the way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda. And I'm thinking, "If you really care about these populations that you claim to care about, why would you not actually be going after the people who are actually hateful, who are actually saying the things that you claim I say?" And I think what a lot of it is, is about clout. It's not actually about making positive change.

   22. JRJoe Rogan50:50

       Yeah, anybody who thinks gender is a social construct needs to meet Josh Barnett. That's a man.

   23. DSDr. Debra Soh50:54

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:55

       Okay? (laughs) There's no argument there.

   25. DSDr. Debra Soh50:57

       Well, he, he identifies as one right now.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:58

       He definitely does. (laughs)

   27. DSDr. Debra Soh51:00

       I'm just kidding.

   28. JRJoe Rogan51:00

       (laughs) Yeah, this... I mean, uh, I think w- we're, we're living in a very confusing time, and, um, I think w- all the, the reasons that we discussed earlier in terms of the, the blowback that people get and in terms of when you're compliant, the support that you get, is all influencing the way people behave. And this willingness to go along with that narrative because you're terrified of being criticized, you're terrified of being attacked, that's where we find ourselves. And this is not the left that I know. This is what's so strange. I mean, I guess I'm old. I mean, I'm 52. When I was young, the left was tolerant, open-minded, and absolutely committed to freedom of speech. That doesn't seem to be where we're at now. We've gotten into some really radical place where the left is now r- Th- they've almost weaponized a lot of, uh, l- left-wing ideological values to combat right-wing values. It's like, it's, it's like they've gotten more loony to deal with loony people on the right and don't even realize they've become their own enemy. They, they've become something that, that the left was never. The left was always in... You know, when I was a young person, was always the most tolerant of, of the groups, and it just doesn't seem to be the case now. It seems to be that they're only tolerant if you follow the ideology that they follow. And if you, if you don't, there's no discussion about it. You're, you're a hateful person, and there's this immediate hot take. You're, you hate, you do this, there's, it's bigotry. It's th- It, there's no room for discussion, information, no room for actual science, no, no room for understanding the nuance of psychology and, and of human beings.

   29. DSDr. Debra Soh52:46

       Yeah, and I don't think it's helpful because, yeah, I think the far right is, is a concern, but the r- the response to that or the solution to that is not to go, to double down and go completely in the opposite direction where you're just as insane. Because I think most liberals, most liberals don't feel like the far left really encompasses anything that they stand for, and it's, in fact, alienating them from these, from these issues.

   30. JRJoe Rogan53:11

       Yeah, ex- I, that's, I would agree with that entirely. There's, there's so many of us that are on the left that are c- so confused now. We're, I feel like we're people without countries. Like, this is not...
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   So wh- ... this…

   1. DSDr. Debra Soh1:00:00

      you know, this is made up by hateful sex researchers to invalidate, um, trans people, this is "outdated medical research," this is pseudoscience. It's not. Everyone in the field knows it's real, including clinicians who work with patients with gender dysphoria, including people who work with adults with gender dysphoria, just no one will say it because they are absolutely terrified.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      So wh- ... this is where it's confusing to me because if you do transition, if you're a male and you transition to female, if you are aroused by the idea of being a female and you're aroused by women, so you want to become a lesbian essentially, but you... if you transition surgically-... you're gonna remove your ability to have an orgasm. You're gonna, you're gonna remove your ability to even be aroused as a male would be.

   3. DSDr. Debra Soh1:00:53

      Not, not necessarily. Some people are able to maintain their sexual functioning after surgery, but not e- not everyone necessarily has bottom surgery also. Some people might just choose to have top surgery or might choose to undergo hormonal interventions.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

      Okay. Okay, okay, so we're talking about very different things, right? So when, when, so there's, would you agree (laughs) there's a spectrum in regards to trans people? So there's trans people that are fully transitioned to look and appear 100% female, even naked, versus someone who is trans, not denying that they're trans, but they still have a penis, a functioning penis.

   5. DSDr. Debra Soh1:01:37

      I think there are differences in terms of outcome, yeah, in terms of what's beneficial for people. That's what I would say.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:43

      But I know of at least one, uh, no, I know of two that became lesbians and did have bottom surgery. So if that was the thing that, i- if that was what excited them, this idea of being a woman, like sexually excited them, once you transition and have bottom surgery, uh, uh, am I right in saying that you can't have orgasms?

   7. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:07

      No. The, some, some men are able to have, some people are still able to have orgasms after.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

      How are they doing that?

   9. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:14

      Well, because the, the tissue is inverted, so it's not like, you can still maintain some of the, the sensation.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       But they don't have testicles anymore, right?

   11. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:23

       No, but they're still a- they still have the nerve endings.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       So they still have the feeling of ejaculation?

   13. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:31

       Well, no, no, but-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       So, but that's a male orgasm, right? So they have a female-

   15. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:36

       But you still, they, it's, can still feel pleasurable though.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       Right, feels good but they don't orgasm. Because you cannot say that to a woman-

   17. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:43

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02:43

       ... you cannot say, "Oh, you orgasmed. It felt good, right? Well, you did, you orgasmed."

   19. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:47

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:47

       They would get mad at you, right? They would say, "No, I didn't orgasm."

   21. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:51

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:51

       Right?

   23. DSDr. Debra Soh1:02:52

       I, I have, I have not undergone the surgery so I can't speak from experience, but I have heard people say that they are able to maintain orgasm after.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:00

       Do you believe them?

   25. DSDr. Debra Soh1:03:03

       I, I do. I do. It's-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:04

       But it's-

   27. DSDr. Debra Soh1:03:05

       ... I think-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:05

       ... I don't know what that means though. Like, uh, there's, is there, isn't there a spec- specific physiological action that happens when a female has an orgasm?

   29. DSDr. Debra Soh1:03:16

       Right, with a female, usually it's clitoral.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

       Right.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:15:25

   Section 6

   1. DSDr. Debra Soh1:15:00

      know is why the parents are not being told this, right? That those changes were made. Are, were the parents who have signed off on this treatment, were they made aware of the fact that these guidelines have been changed, right? These are things that people in the field have been very critical of, but this has not been discussed more widely. So now that these, this has been changed publicly, do all the parents who have signed on for this treatment know that? I don't think any of them do because no one reported on it.

Episode duration: 2:01:52