Joe Rogan Experience #1539 - Jenny Kleeman

Narrator 0:02 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Joe Rogan 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Narrator 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Hello, Jenny.

Jenny Kleeman 0:13 Hello, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

Jenny Kleeman 0:17 I'm totally psyched to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.

Joe Rogan 0:19 Y- my pleasure. So your book, Sex Robots & Vegan Meat, did you have alternative titles that you-

Jenny Kleeman 0:26 I'm really, really shit at titles.

Joe Rogan 0:28 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 0:28 I just can't think of-

Joe Rogan 0:29 It's a good title. I thought it was an excellent one.

Jenny Kleeman 0:31 It's a brilliant title.

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah. It works well.

Jenny Kleeman 0:33 It's, it's my editor Chris's title. It's not my title.

Joe Rogan 0:35 Ah. Did you have ideas?

Jenny Kleeman 0:38 So I ... I had really bad ones.

Joe Rogan 0:39 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 0:39 I think when I wrote the proposal, it was called Future Humans or something.

Joe Rogan 0:43 Mm.

Jenny Kleeman 0:43 And he just said, "No, no, no, no, no." I can't do high ... I can't do titles. I write things that are very, very long. I can't do nice little short things. So anyway, my, my, uh, my editor, my editor at the publishing house, Picador, came up with the title and I loved it.

Joe Rogan 0:57 Yeah, he nailed it. Excellent job, Chris.

Jenny Kleeman 1:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01 Way to go.

Jenny Kleeman 1:01 He's a smart guy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03 Well, it just ... It, it really covers the subject matter so well and so, uh, succinctly. So I am concerned with all the things you appear to be concerned with, so I'm really excited about this conversation. Um-

Jenny Kleeman 1:17 Good.

Joe Rogan 1:18 F- let's, let's start with sex robots since it's the first part. Um, I, uh, d- I'm sure you've seen Ex Machina.

Jenny Kleeman 1:26 Yes, I have.

Joe Rogan 1:27 Oh, fantastic movie, right?

Jenny Kleeman 1:29 Brilliant. Yes, totally.

Joe Rogan 1:31 And confusing, because I think there will be a time, whether it's in our grandchildren's life or when, where that's a real concern, where we do have artificial humans that don't have any empathy. They're programmed whatever way we decide to program them and they're insanely similar to us.

Jenny Kleeman 1:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:53 And people are gonna have sex with them.

Jenny Kleeman 1:56 Yes. It's, it's this idea that, I mean, uh, there are people who are working on this stuff now. That's what my book is about. It's about, like I went and met the people who are doing this stuff now. We have this idea that comes from science fiction of like Ex Machina or Pris from Blade Runner of these like totally perfect beings who are really dangerous. And that doesn't exist at the moment, but it is going to exist. It is going to exist. At some point there will be something extremely realistic that gives a very good illusion of being human even though it's not. And, uh, there are lots of reasons to be concerned about this and there are some really solid kind of feminist reasons to be concerned about this 'cause the vast majority of, of the robots being made at the moment are in the female form.

Joe Rogan 2:38 Mm.

Jenny Kleeman 2:39 Um, but for me, the thing that I was worried about is what happens in a future where it's possible to have a relationship where only one half of the partnership matters, where you don't have to have empathy for your other half. You don't have to care about what their ambitions are, what their desires are. They'll always laugh at your jokes.

Joe Rogan 2:57 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 2:58 They never get their period. You never have to meet their family. And what is that gonna do to us as human beings when we don't, we, when empathy is no longer a requirement of the relationship?

Joe Rogan 3:07 Jenny, the way you're wearing your microphone, it's rubbing against your clothes-

Jenny Kleeman 3:12 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:12 ... 'cause you're trying to look cooler.

Jenny Kleeman 3:14 'Cause I move about too much. There we go.

Joe Rogan 3:16 Yeah, there, there we go.

Jenny Kleeman 3:16 Is that better?

Joe Rogan 3:17 Perfect. Excellent.

Jenny Kleeman 3:18 Excellent. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:18 Yeah, that i- that is a real concern. And I, I've thought about this a lot, um, because I, I, I've, I'm very concerned with ... There's two th- two ways of, of looking at it. One way of looking at it, like we, at one point in time, there were single-celled organisms-

Jenny Kleeman 3:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:36 ... and then m- millions and millions of years later, you have human beings. Why would we assume that this is the end? It's clearly not. There, there will be better iterations. And I have a feeling that one of the ways we're going to bring that about is through technology, and my real fear is that there will be no more biological life. My real fear is that we will slowly integrate, we'll be symbiotic with some sort of technological creation, and then eventually we'll realize, well, all the things that are holding us back are, they're biologically based, whether it's sex or gender or emotions or all these different things that seem to cause conflicts. And then if we figure out a way to convince this, uh, you know, future version of human beings to just give in to the matrix, that's our future.

Jenny Kleeman 4:26 You know what? I would've kind of agreed with you on that take about a year ago, except for what's happened over the past year, which has just smacked us in the face, reminding us that biology always wins and that we're much more likely to be wiped out by some biological thing that we have no control over whatsoever. Because ultimately, that t- that kind of reading of the future, um, depends on this idea that we will be able to control things really well, that there'll be nothing that kind of comes out of left field that can, can destroy us. But I think they'll probably try-

Joe Rogan 4:57 But wouldn't that be ... I'm sorry, but wouldn't that be a great argument that biology's the issue? 'Cause if we did have something that we could put our consciousness in that is not, doesn't have problems with viruses, wouldn't that be like an excellent solution to the problem that we're in? Because we have a problem with our immune systems because we're essentially symbiotic organisms already, right? We have all these-

Jenny Kleeman 5:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:21 ... bacteria and all these d- different life forms that live within us, and you know, the, the, if the balance is off or your immune system is bad, then a virus gets in there, you're, you're basically being attacked by another life force.

Jenny Kleeman 5:34 Yeah. Well, yes, but I'd say that's the difference between a perfect world and, and a real world. And I think it would be almost impossible for us to be, be able to develop technological solutions that were perfect that didn't have glitches in them where you could upload yourself faithfully and exist in this sort of realm of consciousness where you were separate from your body. There would be problems with that, and you'd be relying on this technology to em- embody you in many ways.

Joe Rogan 5:59 Mm.

Jenny Kleeman 6:00 And I just basically think that technology can't s- that it can't solve everything. Technology can do fantastic things, but it can't solve... The most important human problems have to be solved by changing human behavior rather than relying on technology.

Joe Rogan 6:15 Maybe. (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 6:17 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 6:17 I, I, I, I see what you're saying, but most technology, although it's not totally reliable, is more reliable than human beings. Like, your phone works and is... It's much more consistent than most humans.

Jenny Kleeman 6:31 Yes.

Joe Rogan 6:31 Occasionally, your phone will screw up if you drop it a lot, but so will people. If you drop them on their heads, they'll screw up as well.

Jenny Kleeman 6:39 But you're relying... You're giving the person who creates that technology a lot of your trust-

Joe Rogan 6:44 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 6:44 ...and you're giving them a lot of power. And so essentially, that phone is only as good as the person who made it and as, as much as they're fulfilling their pledge to give you what they say they're giving you. And actually, you're disempowering yourself if you're relying on a piece of technology that's created by a corporation, uh, to do something that you could do yourself, basically. And so that's what... My book is about kind of, like... Well, what I've been looking at is these fundamental parts of human nature and how we're, like, relying on technology to solve problems for us because it's a bit of a shortcut to say, "Okay, I'm gonna get a machine to do that. I'm gonna get a machine to be my girlfriend or machine to do any of these other things." Um, but in fact, there's lots of unintended consequences of doing that. And in fact, you kind of... You, you take away some of your agency if you're relying on a machine.

Joe Rogan 7:29 Well, you certainly do. M- my general concern is that we will be, uh, just... That we won't be necessary. I, I think this, uh, this idea of human beings and agency and all these things are, are wonderful if we decide to stay human. But what I'm concerned with is when... You know, I talked to Elon Musk, and he was telling me about Neuralink. And Neuralink is going to radically increase the bandwidth between human beings and information. When you start-

Jenny Kleeman 7:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:55 ...stuffing wires into people's brains and you make some sort of weird Bluetooth connection to an app or some other piece of technology and that allows you to interface with it and, and, and have access to information at a, um, a much more rapid pace-

Jenny Kleeman 8:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:11 ...that seems the beginning of the end of what we call the biological human. I'm, I'm really worried about this. I'm not, I'm not worried in a sense, but I, I see the writing on the wall, and I, I see people as having a, a, a short lifespan, in terms of, like, this, this version of human being that we're enjoying right now. I don't, uh, I don't think this is gonna last.

Jenny Kleeman 8:37 Well, it's certainly not gonna last because something's gonna come and, and wipe us out. But whether or not it's... Whether or not we're superseded by technology depends on a whole lot of things. It depends on everybody having this technology all over the world, and it depends on this technology working properly.

Joe Rogan 8:51 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 8:51 And I think there will always be people who, people who can't get their hands on it, who will be living in a different way and maybe a better way. And while we all get wiped out 'cause we're all connecting to Bluetooth and telepathically, uh, you know, being inside each other's consciousnesses, consciousnesses and, and getting-

Joe Rogan 9:06 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 9:06 ...messed up because of it, there'll be people who can't afford this technology, who will be just quietly forging ahead. I mean, I guess this is the whole thing. It's like the difference between... You never know where technology is gonna take you until you put it in practice. Like, even the iPhone, like, when Steve Jobs in- in- invented the iPhone, he, his projections, his kind of most ambitious hope was that it would take 1% of the market in the first year. Like, he had no idea we would all become completely addicted to these things and that we can't put them down. And, and this is the thing. Nobody knows where it's all gonna go. It might wipe us out, but, you know, there will always be people who don't have it who, who, who survive that apocalypse.

Joe Rogan 9:42 Yeah. Well, there are some people in remote parts of the world that don't have phones now, but that's what's fascinating. If you go back to, like, the, the movie Wall Street when Michael Douglas is on the beach and he has that big brick phone and he's a, a baller. He's a big player. He's got this crazy phone.

Jenny Kleeman 9:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:56 He doesn't even have to have a wire there. Remember that? That was the big deal-

Jenny Kleeman 9:59 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 10:00 ...that this guy was so cool and so rich that he could have a phone and talk to people that are nowhere near him with no wires. And, and that was unusual. Now, you could go to remote parts of the world and you'll see folks with cell phones.

Jenny Kleeman 10:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Very poor people in Third World countries, they all have cell phones. Um, I feel like that is probably going to be what's happening with all future tech, and that the rich people have it or- originally, initially, and then it'll trickle down to other folks as well. The... But the real worry, like, when we're talking about haves and have-nots now, like, that's a big issue today, is income inequality. Well, when you have people that ha- can afford Neuralink or whatever the n- the next version of that is or future iterations, if it really is that effective and it makes you that much more productive, you're gonna have a massive advantage, you know, assuming it works-

Jenny Kleeman 10:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:58 ...over people that are just naturally using their biological brains, and the gap will be even wider. And then there'll be real revolt.

Jenny Kleeman 11:07 Yeah. Yeah. And also with things like, for example, like, uh, artificial wombs, if you can, if you can be pregnant without anyone-

Joe Rogan 11:14 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 11:14 Well, if you can have a baby without anyone being pregnant, then there will be a great inequality between women who can kinda carry on working and not, not have to deal with all of this stuff happening to their bodies. And, you know, companies might pay for your... You to grow your baby in a lab or in a bag instead of inside your body and you can carry on working. And then there's a future where, like, being visibly pregnant might be a sign of, of, of having an unplanned pregnancy or, or, uh, of low status or of being a, like, a pretty bad mother because you hadn't really thought about it. Like, this technology-

Joe Rogan 11:44 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 11:44 ...has the, has the ability to create enormous, not just, like, advantage and disadvantage, but also...... reinforcing class pro- problems in, in a really huge way, 'cause we will end up looking down on people who don't have the ability to, like, participate in this new, uh, in this new world where there are opportunities provided by this technology.

Joe Rogan 12:05 Yeah, and that's ... The- now we're getting really into the weirdness, right? Because we're, we're really talking about money more than we're talking about the developum- development of a human being, because, uh, uh, s- you know, you're a mother. Strange things happen when you have a baby inside of you. You have a connection-

Jenny Kleeman 12:19 I do.

Joe Rogan 12:19 ... with the baby. The baby has a very bizarre connection with you and the outside world through you and your feelings and senses. And to pawn all that off on some fucking robot just seems really weird. I, I hope that never happens. That, that freaks me out.

Jenny Kleeman 12:34 But it ... It's kind of already happening now, though, because ... Well, it is already happening th- now in one respect, in that they're doing experiments with animals where they're doing it. But it's already happening now with surrogacy.

Joe Rogan 12:44 Surrogates, yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 12:44 I mean, all, all of the arguments that you make now about, you know, the connection, the bond and all of that-

Joe Rogan 12:48 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 12:48 ... you could ... They apply to, to surrogates as well.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 12:51 And surrogacy is a very, very, uh, you know, difficult area, uh, ethically to get into-

Joe Rogan 12:56 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 12:56 ... but it's the only way a lot of people have of having babies at the moment.

Joe Rogan 12:59 Yes, and then th- that also is a, an issue with income inequality comes into play as well with that.

Jenny Kleeman 13:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:05 Yeah. With people that really don't wanna do it, and they do it because it's the only way they can earn a large sum of money, so they carry other people's babies inside of them. It's weird.

Jenny Kleeman 13:14 Yeah, I mean, y-

Joe Rogan 13:14 Weird stuff.

Jenny Kleeman 13:16 Y- yeah, you're renting ... You are renting out your body.

Joe Rogan 13:18 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 13:18 Even if you're doing it for the most noble reasons, to give, to give the greatest joy to a couple, you are basically saying, "Okay, you can have this part of my body for nine months."

Joe Rogan 13:26 Yeah. Um, w- uh, like, what, what we were talking about earlier, like, I'm with you. I love human beings. I love-

Jenny Kleeman 13:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:34 I love all our weirdness. I love our flaws. I love the conflict and the resolution of that conflict. I think we're amazing. I think it's a ... I, I d- I love talking to people. That's why I started a podcast in the first place. My concern is that we're going to be obsolete, and I, I really think that if technology continues the way it's currently going at this exponential rate of improvement and with artificial intelligence and all the, the various things that people are working on, including artificial limbs that are gonna be superior. I mean, they're talking about replacing eyes within our lifetime. They're, they're gonna be superior to the eyes that we currently use.

Jenny Kleeman 14:13 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:13 All these things lead me down ... If I sit and think for long, but well, where's it going? Well, it's going to artificial people. It's going to something that's superior to us, just like we're superior, at least on paper, to single-celled organisms.

Jenny Kleeman 14:29 Well, yes, and there's that, the transhumanist argument that y- we're gonna be augmenting ourselves-

Joe Rogan 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 14:34 ... and, and transcending our bodies, but that depends on two things. One is this idea that human, human bodies are kind of flawed and need to be, uh, rejected and improved. But the other thing is, all of this stuff depends on whether or not we wanna buy it. You know? This stuff is out there. We can say, "No, we don't want that. We'd rather be inferior and flawed human beings, because that's better than being, um, perfect and, and rendering ourselves obsolete." We don't have to go down that road. Just because these things exist, it doesn't mean that we have to buy them, we have to use them.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. You're absolutely right. But I think people are gonna do it, and I think more people-

Jenny Kleeman 15:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:09 ... are gonna do it than not, and then-

Jenny Kleeman 15:10 No, I believe-

Joe Rogan 15:11 ... the, the people-

Jenny Kleeman 15:11 I believe in human beings. I think that there's gonna be s- there's gonna be a kind of backlash and a, a revolution against all of this stuff and people will say, "Actually, there are certain areas where I, I want to be flawed and imperfect." But maybe those people will become second-class citizens and be, be, uh, you know, completely inadequate in this new economy of enhanced humanity. You're depressing me now (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 15:32 Well, I'd s- I, I ... You can get depressed thinking about this. But, uh, you know, I look back on chimps, and, uh, or our ancient hominid ancestors, and I said, well, if you could talk to them and say, "Hey, l- let me show you your future. Your future is filled with iPads and electric cars, and you, you can fly in a metal tube that gets you across the entire continent in five and a half hours. What do you think?" They'd be like, "Fuck that. I'm sticking with the trees, man."

Jenny Kleeman 15:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:57 "This is where it's at. It's bananas and eating bugs. This is, this is life. What you guys are doing is nonsense. Everyone's depressed, and, uh, you don't even have to worry about being eaten by a big cat. No, you're, you're, you're doing it wrong." I mean-

Jenny Kleeman 16:11 And it ... Totally. I mean, uh, yeah, it's ... The idea of whether or not our life is better now that we have the capacity to do all of these things is, is really up for discussion.

Joe Rogan 16:20 Sure. What is better, right? What, what's better is h- are you enjoying it more? Do you feel more fulfilled and happy? And arguably, more people are depressed and more p- people feel disconnected because of technology than ever. If you've read ... Um, y- you know Jonathan Haidt? Have you read his book, The Coddling of the American Mind?

Jenny Kleeman 16:38 I haven't.

Joe Rogan 16:39 It's an excellent book, and in particular, when it, it discusses children and h- growing up with technology and social media in particular, how difficult it is. And, uh, and for girls especially, for whatever reason, they, uh, experience more bullying and more, more, um, depression. There's more cutting, more suicides, and there's a giant uptick that coincides directly with the advent of social media and cellphones. It's really weird, because there's this thing that we're adding into our life that causes all these complications and is incredibly addictive. Uh, I have a 12-year-old daughter, and, uh, it's hard to get her to put her phone down. Like, "Hey. Put that down." She has a time. She can only use it for an hour, and then, then I just won't let her use it anymore. But-

Jenny Kleeman 17:27 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:27 But during that hour, it's like, "Agh!" Like a feast. You know, it's crazy. It's, it's, it's weird to see and it's disturbing. And part of it is, I, I see, I see her enjoying it. I see her doing TikTok and laughing with her friends and taking pictures with weird filters. But part of me thinks th- this is a little demon that works its way into your life, and it makes you unsatisfied and unhappy. A lot... For a lot of people, the, the weird, uh, comparison aspect-

Jenny Kleeman 17:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 17:54 ... particularly when you're an adolescent, it's very dangerous for kids.

Jenny Kleeman 17:58 That's what it is. I mean, that that is the kind of key to being unhappy, is comparing yourself with other people. I mean, the key to happiness is to not compare yourself to other people-

Joe Rogan 18:06 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 18:06 ... and just be happy with your lot. But, you know, it's not just teenagers. I'm completely addicted to my phone. I remember one time I p- I put my phone in to be repaired. The screen was cracked, and I was just ... I felt like I'd lost a, a limb. I was constantly thinking, "Oh, it's my phone." And then re- having to remind myself that, you know, it was in for repairs. They are incredibly addictive things, and, you know, can have a very incredibly powerful effect on your brain. You know, all of that stuff that's proven about the dopamine hit you get when you get a notification. We're all prone to that, not just, not just, uh, teenagers. But yeah, the comparison stuff. And also, there's the fact that I think we're now living in a world where we, we ... The problems that we have are not huge, existential problems. We're not constantly living with death around us all the time. Although maybe this year things are slightly different. But, uh, you know, in a world where we're not constantly under threat, we are kind of ... Our kind of sphere of, of what should concern us has got smaller, and we're end- we're kind of cannibalizing ourselves and looking for problems-

Joe Rogan 19:01 Hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 19:01 ... creating problems. Whereas in the past, we would have been too busy, you know, running away from tigers or wherever and whatever you might think.

Joe Rogan 19:07 Yeah, for sure. Um, and there's, there's other issues also where people are comparing themselves with things that aren't real, like filters and all this weird stuff. Um, I posted a, uh, picture on my Instagram that my 10-year-old took of me. We were at dinner and I made a ugly face and she put me through this filter and turned me into a beautiful girl.

Jenny Kleeman 19:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:28 And it, it's really bizarre. And I posted it up on my Instagram, said, "This is me." Like, uh, "I want you to know how crazy this is." I showed the original picture, and then I showed the picture that my daughter created. I'm like, "This is how insane these filters have gotten." They- it gave me hair, it gave me beautiful lips and smooth skin, and it's... And it, and, and people were s- were stunned 'cause there's a lot of people... I didn't know that it existed until my daughter did it to me, like till she showed me. I mean, I knew that it was pretty similar, that you could do some weird stuff with filters, but I didn't kn- I had no idea you could turn a, uh, uh, an ugly man into a beautiful girl. Like, it's r- it's really weird. So there's a lot of girls-

Jenny Kleeman 20:08 And people are having, like... People are having, like, surgery so that they can look like filters as well.

Joe Rogan 20:13 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 20:13 They're so used to seeing themselves in this way. And I don't know if you have this so much i- in, in the US, but we certainly have here, this fashion for incredibly big lips and, and young girls having loads and loads of stuff put in their lips. And so they begin to look more and more like, you know, cartoons because that's the kind of perfection that they're used to seeing in these images.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Yeah. We, we do have that, unfortunately. It's, it's a weird one. I think people got so used to boobs being ridiculously big that they thought that, "Well, we'll just do that with lips too." But-

Jenny Kleeman 20:43 And butts.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Yeah, and butts. The butt one is very strange. But it... But, it's, it's all weird, but it just... It ch- it changes the geometry of your face and it makes people weird. Like, they, they get odded out by you. They see you with the lips and like-

Jenny Kleeman 20:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:58 ... "Oh, that... Those lips don't go with that face." Like, "Why are, why are those lips on that face?" Like, people who have thick lips, it l-

Jenny Kleeman 21:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:05 ... generally, if they're... naturally have thick lips, you know, there's the Fibonacci sequence with your face. It works. You see it.

Jenny Kleeman 21:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:11 You're like, "Oh, that, that's your face. That, th- those beautiful lips belong on your face." But when someone has, like, thin skin and, like, angular, narrow features and these crazy, fucked up lips, it's, it's... Your, your, your body, like, g- you gasp. Like, you tighten up when you see it. Like, "Oh, what have you done?" Like, "What have you done to your face?"

Jenny Kleeman 21:31 See, I think when people in the future look back on us, like when we look back on, I don't know, two or three centuries ago where people wore those tiny corsets and think-

Joe Rogan 21:38 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 21:38 ... "Oh my God, I can't believe that was in fashion," I think people in the future will either look back on us and, and just laugh that we, we did this to our lips, or they will all have lips like that and look back at you and me and think, "Ugh." (laughs) Who knows-

Joe Rogan 21:50 Yeah, those regular looking people. (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 21:53 ... which side of history we're on.

Joe Rogan 21:53 I'm worried about genetic engineering as much as I'm worried about artificial intelligence and symbiotic relationships with technology.

Jenny Kleeman 22:01 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 22:01 I'm really worried about things like CRISPR and how they're going to affect the, the future, wha- what the future shape of human beings is.

Jenny Kleeman 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:10 I think that if, if we really get to a point where we can edit genetics and every woman looks like Wonder Woman and every man looks like Thor, we're in... We're gonna be in a really weird place.

Jenny Kleeman 22:21 Certainly. And also because, y- you know, so much of this stuff is, like, being developed for really noble reasons, like, "We're gonna stop people from being sick. We're gonna be... stop people from having diseases." And it's hard to argue, uh, against that. And also that the kind of... the, the limits on people using this stuff are kind of voluntary things that the countries sign up to. I mean, China gets a bad rap for, for using this stuff, but at least they... Chinese scientists do sign up to lots of ethical codes. There's nothing to stop scientists in North Korea or in Russia or countries like that, that, that don't care about these ethical codes from, from doing whatever they like with this technology. And that's the point, is that we need to be able to have these discussions before this technology is out there and be able to, to be critical about technologies that might be able to do incredible amounts of good, um, so that we're ready for them, basically.

Joe Rogan 23:10 Right. That is p- part of the issue, is like, the people that create the technology, it's, it's like they get to a point where they're, they're editing genes and they're doing it for these good reasons, but then that technology exists. It's so... It's sort of like when Oppenheimer created the bomb, like what, what, what he was doing... They were trying to do it first because they knew that Germany was working on it, and they, they, they knew that this was something that was very important to be first with.

Jenny Kleeman 23:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:40 And... But then once he detonated it and he realized what he had done, you know that famous quote from the Bhagavad Gita that he said? You know, like as the bomb blew off, he said, "Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds." Like, it, it r- it dawned on him, like, "What have I done?" And I think that's probably going to happen with genetic engineering.

Jenny Kleeman 24:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:02 When they're... when they're doing it initially and they're trying to help people with leukemia and all sorts of diseases, but then you see everyone looks like the Hulk, you know? And then you, you're, you're... you live a thousand years, and then we have massive overpopulation problems 'cause nobody dies and people have bulletproof skin. This is not outside of the realm of possibility. This is all in the wheelhouse of genetic engineering. If they just keep doing what they're doing right now and you extrapolate, you go forward 100 years, things can get really bizarre.

Jenny Kleeman 24:35 The point is that nobody can control where their inventions will eventually go-

Joe Rogan 24:39 Right.

Jenny Kleeman 24:39 ... and, and who, who will-

Joe Rogan 24:40 Who gets them.

Jenny Kleeman 24:40 ... control them and what they'll be used for. And like, uh, you know, one of the things I've looked at is, is meat grown in laboratories. So if you could, if you could eat meat without killing animals-

Joe Rogan 24:50 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 24:50 ... by cloning the cells of, of, of a live animal. Um, and the people doing that stuff, they're vegans and they're animal rights activists who are like-... the animal rights argument, we haven't won that argument. People are still eating meat even though they know it's really cruel. So we're gonna give them what they want, but do it in a, in a way that doesn't involve killing animals and we're gonna try and make it cheaper and, and better for you. And that is a, is a noble intention in, in many ways. But then, you know, they can't say that in 20, 30 years time they're not gonna be bought out by some giant meat company that doesn't care at all about animals or people or, or, or anything else. And, and you know, nobody can control how technology's gonna be used and who is gonna be using it and what for. That's the thing. But we ... the ... we do have i- this is, this is where I'm kinda more optimistic than you, in that we as human beings have, have the power to say that we don't want this and that we aren't going to go for this. And there are enough of us that we can, you know, there can be a critical amount of people who say, "We're not gonna allow this to happen," for it not to happen, I would say.

Joe Rogan 25:56 I love your optimism, but I feel the same way about you saying that as I do when the Green Party's running for president here in America.

Jenny Kleeman 26:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:03 Like, "We don't need the Republicans, we don't need the Democrats. We're j- we're gonna start a third party," and I'm like, "Good luck."

Jenny Kleeman 26:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:10 Most (laughs) -

Jenny Kleeman 26:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:11 Most people are crazy. Most people are gonna jump right on board and get fake eyes. They're gonna do it. They, they, it's g- they're gonna wanna be able to read minds. They're like, "Come on, Elon Musk. Drill into my brain. S- stuff those wires into my amygdala."

Jenny Kleeman 26:24 Yeah, but, but it's not gonna suddenly come out there and be there on the market. As we said, like, the first people who are gonna get it are gonna be very rich people-

Joe Rogan 26:31 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 26:31 ... who have it. And then w- ... there will be a backlash of other people saying, "Hey, it's, it's not fair. The rich people can read my mind. Maybe nobody should be able to read anybody's mind."

Joe Rogan 26:37 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 26:37 It's not gonna all of a sudden happen. It's not gonna be like a science fiction movie. That's the thing.

Joe Rogan 26:42 No, I don't think it's gonna happen f- quickly, but I think it, I think it's gonna be one of those things that we just accept, just like we accept cellphones. You know, we, we, y- if you had a cellphone 50 years ago, people would think you were a warlock. Now, all of a sudden, it's normal. It's a normal part of our life. And I, I, I'm, I'm worried that that is gonna be the same with whatever, whether it's Neurolink or whatever future inventions that we have that enhance brain activity. Um, and, and-

Jenny Kleeman 27:10 Hey, well, it's al- it's already happening with things like IVF, you know? Like when-

Joe Rogan 27:13 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 27:14 ... IVF first came, it ... like, total science fiction.

Joe Rogan 27:17 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 27:17 So much backlash, that these-

Joe Rogan 27:18 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 27:18 ... were Franken-babies. And now it's just, like, so normal, it's a- it's advertised on the tube here.

Joe Rogan 27:22 Yeah, and people talk about it in casual conversations. "Oh, we had our kid through IVF." "Oh, cool. Okay."

Jenny Kleeman 27:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:27 It's normal, yeah. Um, the, the sex robot thing, I share the same concerns that you have about the, the ... there's a thing that people do when we get to know each other. We, w- we want each other to like each other. And as we grow up with, you know, as boys grow up with girls, they learn how ... what girls like and girls learn what boys like, and we learn to be better people because we want other people to like us. It's part of the whole process of the development of a human being. If all of a sudden you can have sex with this perfect woman that you could spit on and pee on and do everything and she's always gonna be there for you, we ... I mean, uh, it's, it's a gross image, I'm sorry, but this is the real worry, that there's no consequence to any of your actions and you could do whatever you want. It's, it's like ... there's a video game mode called God Mode. I don't know if you play video games. But it's the most boring thing in the world, 'cause when you play on God Mode, you can't die. So all of the consequences of playing the video game have been removed. Like, when you play a video game, you have a certain amount of life, you have a finite lifespan. You know, if you're playing a, like, a shooter game, you have a finite amount of bullets and you gotta run around and find more bullets. That's part of the fun of the game, is that you could ... it could end, you could lose. But when there's no consequence ... and ... and I, I feel like there's gotta be the same thing in dating, right? If you're n- not nice to people, they don't call you back, they don't like you. And then you go, "Well, what have I done wrong?" And then you learn and you grow.

Jenny Kleeman 29:01 Exactly, and that-

Joe Rogan 29:01 If there's no learning and growing-

Jenny Kleeman 29:03 You need feedback-

Joe Rogan 29:04 Yes. Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 29:04 ... in your relationships. And y- you need to not ... this is the thing. It's about having a domestic echo chamber, to have something in your house that is always laughing at your jokes and always likes the same music as you and the same movies as you. Unless you program it to disagree with you, but then again, all that matters is what you want.

Joe Rogan 29:19 Right.

Jenny Kleeman 29:19 I think that's gonna be very damaging and corrosive. And particularly, because the people who are making this stuff at the moment justify it by saying, "We are making this for people who otherwise wouldn't have a relationship - bereaved people, socially awkward people-"

Joe Rogan 29:33 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 29:33 "... um, people who are disabled. We're giving them a chance to have some sort of companionship which, um, they wouldn't be able to have otherwise." But what those people need is they need some human contact, you know?

Joe Rogan 29:44 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 29:45 They, they will be further isolated by having this kind of perfect illusion o- o- of a partner, because that's ... it's, it's just not reality. The whole point about human beings is they're unpredictable and they disagree with you and, and they have in-laws and, and menstrual cycles and, and-

Joe Rogan 29:59 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 29:59 ... you know, ambitions and stuff.

Joe Rogan 30:00 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 30:00 And, and y- you know, it's, it's incredibly important a- you know, to grow as an individual to not always get everything you want. Yeah, I'm totally with you on that.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah. Uh, it's like that scene in Ex Machina where you realize that the, the genius has this bizarre sexual relationship with these robots that he's created, and particularly the, uh, the Asian robot where he can kinda tell her what to do, and you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. Is that a ... that's not a person, but why do I feel like it's a person? Like, I feel like he's a fucking creep, but it's not a person he's doing this to. Wow."

Jenny Kleeman 30:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:34 So it, it sort of highlights these w- uh, strange dilemmas. Like, you're gonna create a nation of sociopaths with th- w- oddly perfect female companions.

Jenny Kleeman 30:46 Yes. And, and almost kind of worse than that is, I interviewed these, these, um, sex robot manufacturers in China who make very, very realistic, uh, sex dolls that they're putting AI and animatronics into, but really, really realistic. The AI isn't so great, but they look really realistic. And, and I, I asked them, you know, "How come you're doing this?" And they said that, um, actually what this is really ultimately about is about having service robots in the home, that ultimately you can have robots that will cook and, and clean for you at the moment, but they look like movable trash cans and, and they're not appealing. "And so actually what we're doing is making them look nice so you want to have them in your house, and if you want to have sex with them, you can."

Joe Rogan 31:25 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 31:25 And what that description is basically of, is a slave.

Joe Rogan 31:28 Yes. Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 31:29 Like, this is what they're making, is slaves. They're making things that look human but will do all the things that human beings don't necessarily want to do. Uh, and so my concern is, you know, there's a whole branch of ethics about, you know, should robots have rights and, you know, are we, you know, should we, should they ha- should they have legal protections? I'm not so much interested in that. I'm interested in what does it do to you, the robot owner, if you have this relationship with a being that looks very, very human but isn't human? Uh, and it, the mindset of being a slave owner where you, you, you can suspend your empathy for something that looks very human, how does it corrode you and affect you to be having that kind of relationship?

Joe Rogan 32:06 I mean, I see a Black Mirror episode ready to happen, right?

Jenny Kleeman 32:10 Totally.

Joe Rogan 32:11 Uh, p- and then I see like someone pretending that they have robots but they really have human slaves.

Jenny Kleeman 32:17 That's a really good idea.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 32:18 You should make one. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:20 Because it seems like that could s- really happen. I, I think there's going to be a branch of ethics that gets developed to deal with artificial life if we get to the point where we have control over artificial life, and that artificial life has been programmed to actually mimic our emotions.

Jenny Kleeman 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:36 Because if, if you have something that cowers when you hit it and, and when you scream at it, it t- hides in the corner and cries and weeps, and you get, you get off on that and you think that's fun, like what, what is that? You're not doing that to a... Like, if you have a basketball, okay, and you like to punch that basketball and scream at it and call it a bitch and throw it in the corner, y- everybody's like, "Okay." Like, "It's just a basketball."

Jenny Kleeman 33:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:03 Like, "You're fucking weird. I don't know why you're doing that, but, you know, if that's what makes you feel better, fine. Do you want to scream at your basketball and not at a human being? That's fine." But what if that basketball looks like a human being, talks like a human being, has emotions that are programmed into it? Like, how realistic does it have to get before we rebel against this idea?

Jenny Kleeman 33:22 No, totally. And, and part of the, part of the question about child sex dolls and child sex robots is, is part of all of this, that some people say that you should give pedophiles-

Joe Rogan 33:33 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 33:34 ... child sex dolls and child sex robots like, like it's a kind of methadone, that it will wean them off offending. But we all know instinctively that that's wrong, because it's more likely to, to, to feed that desire than to satisfy it. We all know that. But then how is that any different from saying, you know, you can give people who are sex offenders, uh, female dolls and, and robots, or, or even men who are a bit aggressive, or, or even, you know, whatever it is. It's like, if, if it's wrong to have a child sex doll because you'll relate to it like a child, then that same kind of thought process has to carry over when you're talking about adult dolls as well. We will relate to them like they're human. That's the whole point.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Yeah, it's a very messy situation. Like, once they're created and once they actually do mimic real human beings, it's gonna be very strange. And I completely agree with you when it comes to pedophiles, uh, pedophiles and a child robot doll. Like, that's, that's not going to fix anything. And-

Jenny Kleeman 34:33 No. But we know that.

Joe Rogan 34:34 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 34:34 And that's the interesting thing, is like we have a kind of instinctive reaction that, "No, that's wrong." But then if you think, "Okay, well then why is it okay to have..." I guess because adults can consenting- and kids can't consent. But it, it, you, we know that with a child doll or a child robot, it's wrong because you, the person owning it, are going to be treating them like a human and relating to them like a human. It's gonna encourage you in the real world to go off and behave in a bad way. So it's this, it's the same sort of argument.

Joe Rogan 35:00 Yeah, even an inanimate one. Like, if you went over a guy's house and he had a, a, a real doll, you know, one that doesn't move, but, you know, he's like, "Well, I just prefer that to masturbation." You're like, "Oh, I don't know." Like...

Jenny Kleeman 35:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:15 Masturbation's normal, but that's one step removed. Like, that's weird. That thing looks really real. Like-

Jenny Kleeman 35:23 Well, the thing about RealDolls is that they, because they don't move, I mean, I obviously, I went to the RealDoll factory, and because they don't move and speak, they're still like a fetish and it's a very-

Joe Rogan 35:31 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 35:31 ... niche thing. You have to be turned on by dolls or you have to have an incredible imagination where you can imagine them coming to life. The thing about robots with artificial intelligence and AI is that you don't, they're n- they're not so much of a niche and a fetish. They are a, uh, uh, verisimilitude of a human being. They are, they are trying to, um, to be a, to, to be a replacement relationship, really. And with a robot, it's much more about the relationship than about the sex, 'cause you can have sex with a doll. The whole point of a robot is that you can have a relationship with it.

Joe Rogan 36:02 Yeah, it's, um, the Joaquin Phoenix movie, She?

Jenny Kleeman 36:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:07 That, that movie? Is that a she or her?

Jenny Kleeman 36:09 Yeah. I think-

Joe Rogan 36:09 Her.

Jenny Kleeman 36:09 Her.

Joe Rogan 36:10 Yeah, um, where he's, has a, a love relationship with this voice, essentially. I mean, that's what we're talking about. We're just talking about-

Jenny Kleeman 36:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:20 ... it in the physical form. But I'm, I, I'm worried that this is inevitable. I just, it seems inevitable. It seems like if this, these companies are already developing ones with wonky AI, it's going to be like the difference between that brick-... that Michael Douglas had on the beach and, uh, you know, a Galaxy S20 Ultra, you know, the-

Jenny Kleeman 36:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:42 ... the newest, latest, greatest cell phones. They're, they're just gonna get better. And it's going to get-

Jenny Kleeman 36:46 They are. It, it is totally inevitable. Uh, they'll always be quite expensive. Uh, but it is totally inevitable. And there's a, there's a guy called Dr. David Levy, a British guy, who wrote a book in 2007 called Love and Sex with Robots where he predicted, uh, by 2050, uh, human robot marriages would both be legal and acceptable around the world. Uh, and I think he thinks that's gonna happen sooner now. Um, but yeah, I, I, I think this technology is inevitable. It doesn't exist so much at the moment, because at the moment, you've got these robots that look very realistic, because they're like RealDolls. Um, and the AI isn't bad, but they can't walk. Walking is really, really expensive to develop and it drains a lot of power, so they haven't worked out how to do that. That's the kinda next frontier. So you haven't got this, this science fiction fantasy of like a robot that will come and knock on your door and deliver herself and say, "Hello, I'm your new girlfriend," or whatever it is. We're quite a way off that. But it is going to happen. Uh, whether or not it'll be cheap enough for everyone to have one is a- is another matter. But it's definitely gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 37:44 Do you think that people will propose laws to prevent this? Like once it starts seeming like it's inevitable, once the general public goes, "Hey, wait a minute, like, this is not good," and then people realize that their romantic relationships, like they're gonna be replaced-

Jenny Kleeman 38:01 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:01 ... men and women. And women too. I mean, women are gonna be tired of men's bullshit, you know? And they're gonna-

Jenny Kleeman 38:06 I think that's probably true, but then, I mean, I can't speak for all women here. Um, but I think certainly my experience, and, and I don't think this is a minority view, is that women find the idea of having sex with something that you don't know genuinely wants you to be very unsexy indeed.

Joe Rogan 38:23 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 38:23 And it's much harder. Like all of th- those RealDolls, they make male RealDolls. They're bought by gay men. Like women-

Joe Rogan 38:29 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 38:30 ... it takes a l- it's very, very difficult. It's not sexy to ha- to, to have sex with something that, that isn't really into you basically. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:37 Isn't that kind of the same thing with Playgirl? Like Playgirl-

Jenny Kleeman 38:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:40 ... the idea was well, women should have a magazine like Playboy too. Like, okay, you know who buys it? Gay men.

Jenny Kleeman 38:46 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 38:47 (laughs) Men and girls.

Jenny Kleeman 38:48 The female sexuality is very, very ... it's a very, very different thing. But I do think there'll be women who want companions. And so forget about the sex. There'll be women having relationships certainly, uh, with, with very realistic male robots too, definitely. Um, but in terms of whether or not there are gonna be laws against this, there's a campaign against sex robots in the UK that at first was trying to get laws banning sex robots or the development of sex robots in the UK, and now has kind of softened their stance and says they, they just want proper discussion ahead of maybe making some laws. But the point is the cat is out of the bag. We could, you know, we could ban it in the UK. People would be making them in Korea-

Joe Rogan 39:25 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 39:25 ... or in somewhere unless there's a kind of global decision not to do this. And there are too many rogue states for, for, for this not to happen. So it is gonna happen. Um, and always, you know, the law is really out of step with technology. You know, if you look at things like revenge porn, something that we know instinctively is so wrong, it's been really hard to criminalize because of the way that we all live now. Everybody's taking pictures. Everybody's sending them all the time. People can upload them and ruin someone's life in a moment. And it, you know, the law is kind of grinding on slowly trying to keep up with all of this. And so for example, in the UK the, what's illegal in terms of sex dolls is i- if you... You're not allowed to import, um, a child sex doll. So it's the importation of it that's illegal, not having one, but trying to get it into the country just because the laws are kind of so old and creaky. So I don't think actually it's something that we can stop with laws. We can stop it by saying, "Actually, I don't want this and I'm prepared to accept compromise in my relationships and I'm prepared to accept that in order for me to grow as a person, I need to be challenged and not constantly in a relationship where all that matters is what I want."

Joe Rogan 40:28 Yeah. Uh, I mean, all those things sound right. I, uh, I, I agree with you. Um, it, it's not that I'm saying, "No, no, no, you're wrong. It would be better if these sex robots took over." My, my, my real worry is that it doesn't matter what we think is right, that technology always goes towards innovation. It always goes towards improvements. It always goes towards technology advancing where it's more effective, more available, easier, better, cheaper, faster. This is what we always do. This is what we've done with every single thing we've ever invented, and it's gotta happen with that as well.

Jenny Kleeman 41:08 But I think the difference between our position is that you think the march of technology is completely inevitable and, and that there's nothing we can do to kind of shape it or stop it. It's just gonna happen. Whereas I think, I think none of this is inevitable. And I think human beings are, are capable of, uh, you know, adapting and changing without technology. And like this year is a really good example of this, that we're all waiting for a vaccine. The vaccine has not arrived. And so we've, we've kind of saved ourselves by changing our behavior and changing our behavior in a kind of altruistic way by staying at home even though like we might not get sick with coronavirus or wearing masks for other peoples' benefit. I think human beings are really adaptable and we, we can adapt by changing our behavior rather than relying on technology. And this march of technology only exists if we continue to always think that technology is the, is the solution. People have to make this stuff and people have to buy this stuff in o- in order for it to march on. And we always have the power to say, "You know what? I don't want it."

Joe Rogan 42:07 I think reasonable people like yourself, yes, that's going to happen. But clearly you've seen videos of spring break in Fort Lauderdale where kids are-

Jenny Kleeman 42:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:17 ... n- making out half naked on the beach. Nobody gives a fuck about coronavirus. And then there's maps that show the spread of them leaving Florida and going all through the rest of the country and then-

Jenny Kleeman 42:30 Yeah, but there, but there's a critical mass of people.

Joe Rogan 42:30 ... all these infections that show up there.

Jenny Kleeman 42:32 Totally. But there's a critical mass of... There's enough people that are being reasonable that when those things happen, it's really shit and, and people get ill, but it's not the end of the world. That's the point. I think most people-... are, are all reasonable and are able to behave in a kinda way where, where the good (snaps fingers) kind of wins out.

Joe Rogan 42:49 I think I agree with you on a lot of these things. However, when I look at human beings, I try to look at human beings as if I was from another planet, as if I was an alien, and I looked at them without any connection to the way they think or behave or their culture.

Jenny Kleeman 43:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:02 And I said, "Well, what do these things do?" Well, this is what they do. They make technology. All they do is make technology. They're obsessed with materialism, which plays into technology. It plays into this want and need for the bigger, better, faster, greater thing that comes around every year, and that's what fuels them to work every day. They go to work and they, they toil, and one of the things they, they reward themselves with is the newest, greatest thing. And this is the fuel for this technological growth, and this technological growth appears unstoppable because it seems like that's all the human animal does. If you looked at it from afar objectively, all I'm seeing is a constant wave of technology.

Jenny Kleeman 43:46 But I don't think that's true because we don't just make technology. We also talk to each other and we communicate like you and I are now, and we have discussions and we are capable of incredible change, and that we can live in a world where, uh, you know, it was okay to keep slaves and impregnate your wife every year and, and, and k- keep her in the kitchen. But through having these discussions, we can really, really change the way we live very drastically from one generation to the next. It's not just technology, you know? It's also... What defines a human being is that we use technology and that we're social animals, and those are two different things. And, and the idea that the, the, the technological advancement is always gonna win out isn't necessarily one I buy.

Joe Rogan 44:24 I'm not saying that it's gonna win out. I don't think it's gonna win out. I think it's just, it's inevitable, and I think we're gonna find-

Jenny Kleeman 44:30 But they're both inevitable, and, and, and as a society, we can make change just as much as we can make change by using technology.

Joe Rogan 44:36 Yeah. That is the fascinating balance, right? I mean, most people are, today are aware that they're addicted to their cellphones, yet most people still use their cellphones. Uh, we were aware that it's harming us, but yet we still use them because we just go, "Oh, it's just a phone. No big deal." But you know it's a big deal. Everybody... I know it's a big deal. I know I check my messages too much, but yet I still check my messages too much, and I, and I'm aware of it, and I've read a lot of books about it.

Jenny Kleeman 45:01 But I think if you thought it was harming you enough-

Joe Rogan 45:04 Hmm.

Jenny Kleeman 45:04 ... if you thought it was destroying your brain cells, you wouldn't.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Right.

Jenny Kleeman 45:08 The point is, it, it's about, it's about how you weigh up harm and you think, "Yeah, you know, I should probably be doing other things. Oh, I shouldn't be constantly checking the Twitter feed of that person I hate that's, you know, bad for my soul."

Joe Rogan 45:18 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 45:18 But you still do it because it's bad for your soul, but only a little bit.

Joe Rogan 45:22 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 45:22 And if it was really, really corrosive and bad, then, then you would stop. I mean, people aren't still-

Joe Rogan 45:27 Yeah, maybe, if you're a healthy person or maybe you're one of those people that likes to pick scabs and you just, you, you just keep scratching. That's possible too.

Jenny Kleeman 45:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:36 I'm, I'm worried for people. I, uh, really genuinely am, but... And this is as a person who enjoys people. I just... Uh, I don't know how much time we have left as... In this form. Like, when I look at the, um, archetypal alien, when you see those, uh, little gray men with the big heads, I'm, I'm worried that what that is is, uh, like, we instinctively know that that's our future, that we're, we're gonna be these genderless weird things-

Jenny Kleeman 46:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:02 ... that reproduce through some sort of, uh, you know, uh, some sort of, some sort of technology instead of these bizarre, imperfect biological creatures with emotions that we, you and I both enjoy so much because of all those... Uh, all the weirdness. I mean, my whole business, everything I do is about the weirdness of people-

Jenny Kleeman 46:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:23 ... whether it's stand-up comedy-

Jenny Kleeman 46:25 Me too.

Joe Rogan 46:25 ... whether it's podcasts or even fighting, when I do commentary on fighting. That's all of the weirdness and imperfect-

Jenny Kleeman 46:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:30 ... nature of the human animal, and I think it's awesome. I mean, I, I love people. Don't get me wrong. I'm not rooting for technology to do this, but I, I see the writing on the wall, and it's, it's not pretty.

Jenny Kleeman 46:42 Well, the thing is, it's all about the richness of the human experience, what makes it interesting to be human, which isn't just the basic functions of our life or, or, or basic logic, you know? The fact that we have art galleries everywhere and music-

Joe Rogan 46:52 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 46:52 ... you know, music, which is completely, completely illogical.

Joe Rogan 46:55 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 46:55 It's because there's more to being human than those basic functions. I mean, when you talk about, you know, sexless aliens reproducing without sex, like, that kind of stuff is gonna happen quite soon.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 47:06 And I, you know, I, I look, I looked into quite a lot of this. We can make, like, gametes. We can make cells. They can do this in mice. You can make sperm and eggs out of cheek cells, so you could make an egg out of your cheek cell and sperm. It will... There'll be a future where people can make sperm and egg, h- whichever one they need for whichever relationship they're in and that you can grow a baby outside the human body-

Joe Rogan 47:26 Boom.

Jenny Kleeman 47:26 ... and we will become less and less gendered. That is gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 47:29 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 47:30 You know, the end of sex for reproduction is quite possible, that we will just have sex for fun and then we'll do babies in this kind of very controlled way. Um, but we're always gonna be weird human beings. We're always gonna like strange things, like dancing around to music, all the stuff that can't, can't be explained. And, and the drive to be weird and the drive to, to, to be illogical is very, very powerful. And I, I just think... I think we... I'm not so deterministic about stuff. And, and when I was, when I was, like, doing all the work for my book, I was quite worried that it was gonna be really depressing because, you know, in, uh, in a book like mine, like, you come, you come to a conclusion where it's like, "Well, there's a future where women might be obsolete, where we can be replaced by robots and, and artificial uteruses and, you know, misogynist men can live without us or..." Uh, you know, all of these things that are really dark and worrying, but that's, that's to buy a particular view of human nature as, um, as being a kind of slave to whatever comes next. And we're too kind of weird and idiosyncratic, I think, to be done away with that easily.

Joe Rogan 48:31 Well, I think the weird and idiosyn- synchronic nature of people is something that you and I both enjoy.

Jenny Kleeman 48:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:37 But, I mean, I think w-... if you can replace men with cheek cells, I mean if you really can do that, if you really get to, to the point where you can create sperm from your nose hairs-

Jenny Kleeman 48:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:46 ... or whatever, then you, you don't need a, a man anymore, what's-

Jenny Kleeman 48:51 Or a woman.

Joe Rogan 48:51 ... or a woman. Yeah. We're-

Jenny Kleeman 48:52 It's called-

Joe Rogan 48:53 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 48:53 ... in vitro gametogenesis, in vitro gametogenesis. You can make gametes in vitro out of anything, and they've done it in mice, and they're gonna try and do it in humans. So it is gonna happen, but it means, you know, gay couples can have babies without anyone donating anything, and-

Joe Rogan 49:05 That's the good part.

Jenny Kleeman 49:07 That's the good part, yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 49:07 The bad part is no, no more people having sex to make people, and then we're gonna realize, uh, as a society, all of our problems are caused by emotions-

Jenny Kleeman 49:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:16 ... if we were just logical. So we figured out a way to remove emotions. And here's the thing. Emotions, the good part about emotions are dopamine and serotonin, right?

Jenny Kleeman 49:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:25 We all agree. And dopamine and serotonin, we can actually reproduce that in your own brain. So we can have the same feelings of love and, and the same feelings of happiness, but without all the illogical behavior that ruins lives.

Jenny Kleeman 49:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:40 So there'll be no more jealous boyfriends burning your house down. There'll be no more chaos, no more murder, no more violence, no more any of this. Everybody needs to sign up. Or, you know, or you're a barbarian, or you're some terrible person who, uh, who doesn't want progress.

Jenny Kleeman 49:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:56 But the emotions are holding us back. That's what I'm worried about is that this is like a slippery slide into us becoming something, something different and more, more predictable.

Jenny Kleeman 50:07 Man, this is really dark.

Joe Rogan 50:09 Is it dark-

Jenny Kleeman 50:09 But you're right. I mean, well, I mean, it- it- it- it's- it is quite possible-

Joe Rogan 50:13 Dark for us. (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 50:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:15 As a, as a thing, as a species.

Jenny Kleeman 50:18 Yeah, I... It is dark for us as a species. I mean, I think the u- the, the, the idea... You're right, that those emotions, they can be artificially induced anyway, and it's the natural emotions that are... But all of this is depending on a world where there's a system where everybody has access to all that technology or all those drugs or all those whatever. And, you know, there will be accidents. There will be babies born naturally. There will be-

Joe Rogan 50:39 Whoops.

Jenny Kleeman 50:39 ... you know-

Joe Rogan 50:40 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 50:40 Yeah. And then, and then maybe those people will, will have, you know, because they will be naturally selected in a, in a different way, maybe they will have a, a completely different take on things, um, that will save us all. The thing that's really scary about the whole being able to make sperm and eggs from cheek cells is that it means you can make an infinite number of eggs. So at the moment, the, the number of, of babies a couple can have is limited by the number of eggs a woman can produce. And if you can make eggs from cheek cells, then you could have a, a billion eggs, which means that you could, you could, you know, conceive a million fetuses, and you could artificially select, like, the best one. So you don't need CRISPR for that, in terms of, uh, genetic engineering when you can make unlimited numbers of fetuses between a couple and, and choose which is the best one. And that's not, uh, you know... If, if this thing can happen, that you can make eggs, that's not a difficult thing to do, and we're not that far away off all of that.

Joe Rogan 51:36 Ugh.

Jenny Kleeman 51:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:38 There's, there's so many things to worry about. I had a conversation once with, with, uh, Ray Kurzweil where he was talking to me about the ability in the future that we'll have the ability to download consciousness into a computer, that you'll be able to take your consciousness and put it into a computer because essentially, consciousness is, uh, something that's, uh, we're gonna be able to replicate it. It's going to be something that we can just recreate with computer programs and software and all that. And, and my thought was, why... Okay, well, what if someone's crazy? What if like, some Kim Jong-un guy decides to make a billion of him?

Jenny Kleeman 52:14 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Like, if you have this world, this artificial world that you're gonna live in, if you're gonna live inside this computer, right? I'm assuming there's some sort of an environment that's compatible with the, the human consciousness.

Jenny Kleeman 52:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:25 So you're gonna create some, you know, real world multiplayer game where people live inside of it. What's to stop someone like Donald Trump from making a billion Donald Trumps, right? What's to stop you from doing that, from populating the world?

Jenny Kleeman 52:38 Well, this is like a big, a big philosophical experiment, then, because the question is, why would it matter? If this is all virtual and none of it's real-

Joe Rogan 52:45 Right.

Jenny Kleeman 52:45 ... this is basically a computer simulation, why does it matter if, in that computer game, there's a billion Donald Trumps and a Kim Jong-il, you know?

Joe Rogan 52:51 Right, or why does it matter if you wanna piss on your sex robot and, and punch it like it's not even a person?

Jenny Kleeman 52:57 Well, I guess the difference with that is because it's gonna change you as a person when you get used to behaving like that, whereas this uploaded consciousness world, no human being is around to see it. You've uploaded your consciousness. It's doing its own thing in that world. That world is a parallel universe where nothing matters.

Joe Rogan 53:11 But is it?

Jenny Kleeman 53:11 But I think, I think the idea of uploading your consciousness is very interesting because there's an incredible narcissism in that.

Joe Rogan 53:17 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 53:17 There's this idea that people will want to know you after you're gone and your, your consciousness deserves to be preserved. There isn't enough space in anybody's kind of... You know, how could you deal with a world where the consciousness of every human being who's ever lived is, is in there? There'd just be too much going on. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 53:34 Oh, yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 53:35 It's like-

Joe Rogan 53:35 I mean, imagine.

Jenny Kleeman 53:36 ... if you could remember all of your ancestors, you know, how would that affect you if you constantly had the judgment of your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents to deal with as well as your parents or whatever? I don't think that would be very good.

Joe Rogan 53:47 Well, not only that, like, who's to say that once they do upload your consciousness into some computer that they won't have some infinitely better version of this software and hardware down the line? Are they gonna transfer you again? Are they-

Jenny Kleeman 54:01 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Do you, do you... And who's gonna do that at some point in time? Who's-

Jenny Kleeman 54:05 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 54:05 Are, are, are we going to be able to take your consciousness and continually upgrade it? Are you gonna have to sign on to some, some g- gold group? Like, "Well, if you sign up to this p- this plan, you know, we upgrade you every two years to the newest, latest, greatest software, and you know, you get a, a, a, a wonderful place in heaven." Like, what are we doing? (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 54:26 I know, and who's to say that there, we, we, we, we're not gonna be doing CRISPR for people's consciousnesses and editing out-

Joe Rogan 54:31 Oof.

Jenny Kleeman 54:31 We'll say, "We'll take out your mental illnesses."

Joe Rogan 54:33 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 54:33 "And then eventually, we'll be, we'll, we'll take out your, your irrationality and your bad moods and your antisocial habits." And then, you know?

Joe Rogan 54:40 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 54:41 So yeah. The point is, you know, nobody who develops technology can ever control...... where it goes. And the problem is, we're really uncritical about technology because we're so used to science fiction, where technology is either really bad or it's wonderful. There's never this gray area in between where it's sometimes really could be used for real good, but has a potentially really dark application if it's used in- in- in a society that isn't fair or that has certain ideas about certain individuals. And that's the reality in which we live. Whereas, you know, at the moment, we're stuck between, I don't know, the Terminator and, I don't know-

Joe Rogan 55:13 (slaps thigh) (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 55:14 ... some- some- some sunny, sunny future, you know? There's nothing between.

Joe Rogan 55:17 Is there ever a sunny future, though? There's... I don't- I don't know of any science fiction movie where it looks awesome in the future. It's always disgu- it's always, like, really distraught, dystopian.

Jenny Kleeman 55:28 Hmm. Yeah, I can't think of any- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:31 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 55:31 ... positive ones at the moment. There must be some. I'm sure there are.

Joe Rogan 55:34 There must be.

Jenny Kleeman 55:35 But there's al- There's al- There's quite often in science fiction, the- there's technology that's being used for incredible good. There's just, you know, we've solved that problem, or, you know, yeah, we no, we no longer... Yeah. We've- we've got- we can, we can grow meat without killing animals, and that's all fine, and everything's fine, and that's sorted. It's no longer a- a- a debate. Um, and even things like, you know, like in, uh, Blade Runner, yes, the robots there are bad, but they're also perfect and flawless and- and- and don't have any, like, problems with them. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 56:05 Anyway. But yes, most science fiction is dyss- dystopian because it's about our inner fears, about how we c- we can't really control anything.

Joe Rogan 56:12 But s- it also seems like one of the things that people enjoy is... We- we enjoy enduring and recovering and overcoming obstacles.

Jenny Kleeman 56:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:25 And if we get to a point where we've removed that, where will the joy come from? 'Cause-

Jenny Kleeman 56:33 There will be more obstacles. We'll always invent more obstacles. This is the whole thing, that when, you know, when you live in a country where there is no longer the threat of nuclear war or starvation and death, there'll be another obstacle with, you know, body dysmorphia or whatever. We'll invent something else. Do you know what I mean? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:46 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 56:46 Like, w- we all... I- I mean, I think, I think that human beings are... We are constantly trying to control everything around us, and we- we- we're constantly in fear of- of the chaos around us. And that's why we use technology to try and give us this illusion of control over the world. And there are some things that we really can control, and technology has been great at doing that. You know, I'm, I- I'm very grateful for technological advancements in- in birth control that mean that I haven't been, like, perpetually pregnant for the past 20 years. That's a great thing that I can control that part of my body. Um, but ultimately, there are many things that we just can't control and that technology doesn't solve problems, it- it circumvents them. It gives us a kind of easy way out of them instead of forcing us to confront the cause of the problem. It's just like plastering over them. And, um, so yeah, I think a, a, a lot of, of the human condition is this struggle between wanting to control everything and having to deal with the fact that ultimately we have no control over anything.

Joe Rogan 57:47 And also implementing our ideas. And that's- that's part of the problem is that people are constantly trying to come up with new, better ways to do things.

Jenny Kleeman 57:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:58 And then we implement these new, better ways to do things, and then we deal with the repercussions and the consequences of these new changes.

Jenny Kleeman 58:04 Totally, of- of the way that we've implemented them.

Joe Rogan 58:06 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 58:06 Yes, totally. And- and this, there- there's a k- I've got the perfect example of this, which is when I was in Las Vegas doing part of the reporting, I went, I went and interviewed a man who'd made a sex robot, a very bad sex robot in- in Las Vegas and then I went back to my hotel and they were playing really, really loud music, uh, in, outside the- the entrance to the hotel to try and get people to come into the casino. And I went up to my room and there was like a dish next to my bed of different kinds of earplugs, of like silicon earplugs, foam earplugs, wax earplugs, all these solutions to the problem caused by the management there. And they could just turn the music off, but instead, (laughs) they've given you this profusion of solutions.

Joe Rogan 58:48 Which hotel were you at?

Jenny Kleeman 58:50 Oh, I can't remem- It was in downtown in- in LA, uh, not in LA, in Las Vegas. I can't remember the name, the name. It was a while ago.

Joe Rogan 58:57 Sound off.

Jenny Kleeman 58:57 But it was this ridiculous... Rud- it wasn't, it wasn't even a grimy hotel, but it's this... Like, and a good example of this is also like with our phones. We're all addicted to our phones, so we can't sleep properly. So people are, are taking melatonin so that they feel sleepy. But you could just put your phone down. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 59:12 Yeah, yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 59:13 So we've become addicted to different orders of magnitude of technology to solve problems caused by technology, basically.

Joe Rogan 59:19 Do you ever go camping?

Jenny Kleeman 59:21 I'm not a big camper, but I have been camping, yes, many times.

Joe Rogan 59:25 But the interesting thing about camping is if you do it for enough days, you realize that your brain, when it gets dark out, you start preparing to go to sleep. And inste- and normally, you know, like 8:00 at night, I'm wide awake. I'm wide awake for several hours at 8:00 PM but when I'm camping at 8:00, it's like, "Well, let's get ready. Let's eat and crash." You know, you sit around the campfire, talk a little bit, and you get ready to go to sleep. That's just what people-

Jenny Kleeman 59:51 Same.

Joe Rogan 59:51 It's- it's... But that's your- your natural cycle. We've circumvented that with lights and-

Jenny Kleeman 59:56 Absolutely. I mean, if- if you look at the, you know, the effect of technology on human beings, it doesn't have to be something as fancy as a perfect sex robot. Lights.

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 1:00:04 Like artificial lighting has changed human society, human brain chemistry. If you look at 150 years ago when everybody want, you know, went to bed, and it's just simple things that we don't have to go to sleep as soon as it get d- gets dark anymore.

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 1:00:17 How much we have changed because of that. It's incredible. So that's the other thing, is the things that really hav- have a, have potential for radical change on- on human society and human behavior and human biology, they don't have to be very fancy and high tech. You don't have to have Elon Musk's, you know, Bluetooth brain chip to just be alive.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 There's al- there's one even more insidious aspect for lights, and that's, it's disconnected us from the universe.

Jenny Kleeman 1:00:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 The, one of the things that you realize when you do go camping, when there's no lights is, oh my God, we're in space.Like, you see all the stars, and it's extraordinary.

Jenny Kleeman 1:00:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 When you go, like... I went to, uh, the Keck Observatory once in Hawaii. Well, I've been a few times, but one time I nailed it, where I went where there was no moon and the sky was clear, and it was stunning. And to this day, I still, I'll close my eyes sometimes and try to remember that, remember what it was like. Because you could see the whole Milky Way. You could see every... The Keck Observatory's very high, um, on the Big Island, and, um, it's above the clouds. And in fact, when we were driving there, it was cloudy and I was like, "Damn, this is gonna suck. We're gonna get all the way up there and we can't see anything 'cause of these clouds." But then you pop through the clouds, and then you get to the observatory, and it is amazing. The just... Without looking through a telescope, just the amount of stars that you see, it's so stu- And it changes your relationship to-

Jenny Kleeman 1:01:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 ... to life and, and to this experience that we're having here on Earth. We're so delusional. When we don't see any stars, when we have streetlights and we're looking at our phone or we're watching TV, we have this bizarre idea of what life is. But then when you're there and there's nothing but the stars and the sky, you go, "Oh, no, this is an organic spaceship." We're hurling through space on this ball. And I, I thought this was everything, but it's nothing. When you see all those stars, it, it just, it's, it humbles you in a way that our ancestors were humbled, and why they were so obsessed with the constellations, why they were bso- so- obsessed with the zodiac signs and all, all, all the, the, the different ways that they used... would study all the lights in the sky and try to, uh, figure out what kind of relationship we had with those lights.

Jenny Kleeman 1:02:35 Yeah, and that's-

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 We've, we've lost all that.

Jenny Kleeman 1:02:37 ... the thing. We, we've lost the context and the, the perspective on our existence that w- that wa- that we need, really. But then again, also, would we, could we really function if we were constantly aware of how, you know, infinitesimally small and-

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 Sure, we could.

Jenny Kleeman 1:02:51 ... incomp-

Narrator 1:02:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 Sure we could.

Jenny Kleeman 1:02:52 I guess it would liberate us-

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 1:02:53 ... from, from being so obsessed with gazing at our own navels.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 (laughs) I think it would probably be humbling in a way, that it would eliminate a lot of unnecessary hubris. I think there's a lot of dumb shit that we do that is connected to this sort of dulled perception of our place in the universe. And I think if we could see it and it could humble us the way it humbled the Mayans and all these other-

Jenny Kleeman 1:03:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 ... civilizations that were constantly fixated on the, the celestial gods and all the, all the different lights in the skies, I think, uh, I think it would be better for us. And I... But I think... My fear is that all of this is like, we're m- Uh, and again, this is looking at it outside of, uh, a human being. But all of this is leaning us towards this complete and total immersion in technology. And one of the best ways to get us to not think about our position in this vast, infinite universe is that we don't see it.

Jenny Kleeman 1:03:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 What's the best way to not see it? Technology. Blind you. Literally blind you to the most spectacular vision the world has ever known. The most spectacular vision is the heavens, is the sky, the stars, the Milky Way, all the galaxies that are visible to the naked eye. That's the, that's what gave people so much wonder and, and created so many myths of what's going on up there. Well, if the best way to eliminate that and have us fixated, uh, uh, totally on ourselves and become self-centered is to blind us to it. And that's what we've done. We've done that with lights.

Jenny Kleeman 1:04:25 But I think it's also, all of this is also to do with capitalism, and that capitalism depends on us all feeling incomplete and like we need the next big thing in order to be complete. So, we need... This bit of technology will solve this problem, or I will be fine, I will be happy if I have bought this thing or if I've bought into this solution. And there's no money to be made saying, "Hey, what you really need to do is get a proper night's sleep." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Right.

Jenny Kleeman 1:04:48 "Go and do some exercise, but you don't need, you don't need anything fancy to do some exercise." You know, "Eat a little less if you're trying to make, lose weight, but all you need to do is eat a little less." There's no money to be made in that way, so we- we're kind of... We are robbed of our context, because capitalism depends on us thinking that we can control everything and be a kind of self-determined beings if we just buy the next thing and are always focused on our own project and what, what we're gonna do next to achieve the goal we want. There's, there's no money to be made in telling people, "Everything as it is right now is fine and, and good, and you should just appreciate it."

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Right, that's what-

Jenny Kleeman 1:05:24 We don't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 You're, you're absolutely right. But that's what we were talking about earlier when I was saying that I feel like materialism, which was, is one of the great plagues of humanity, this desire for, for shiny things that are supposedly gonna make us happy, is also fueling technology. Because-

Jenny Kleeman 1:05:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 ... in order to keep up with the human desire for these things, we're constantly creating newer and better things. So, all of our ridiculous instincts to acquire these things are literally fueling the innovation of technology.

Jenny Kleeman 1:05:56 But again, I would say... I, I agree with you, but again I would say, like, we have the power to say, you know, "I don't need these earplugs. I'm just gonna turn the music down." Or, (laughs) or, you know, "I don't want this sex robot. I'm just gonna deal with..." You know, we all... Ultimately, we have the power-

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 1:06:10 ... of being consumers, and the consumer has the power to not want something. Um, and that's where real power lies, in, in, in, in being in control of your desires and not just being led along by someone saying, "You need this. You need this." You know, having the power to say, "I don't think that I do need this and I'm fine just as I am."

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 I agree with you, but I don't think people are gonna say that. I think they're gonna give right in. I don't think anybody's moving-

Jenny Kleeman 1:06:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 ... to a log cabin in the woods either. I think you're like, like one out of a million. One out of a million, and we-

Jenny Kleeman 1:06:37 Right, you, you don't have to move to a-

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 ... we look at those people, like, "They figured it out."

Jenny Kleeman 1:06:40 You don't have to move to a log cabin, though. You just need to say, you know, "I, I'm... I've got a house that suits my purposes and it's fine, and I'm h- I'm happy with it, and my life is good." I don't, you know... I'm not g- I don't care if people look at what car I've got and judge me on it. Those people aren't, aren't worthwhile. I mean, I'm not saying that you give up all your possessions and, and become a hippie. I quite like having stuff. But I, I, I've reached a point in my life where, um, you know, I've got a job that I love and I have...... uh, two kids. I have a lovely family and I am very, very aware of feeling like I'm there and I, I am, I, I have everything that I want. And I... Other possessions, they might be nice, but, um, actually, uh, I feel fulfilled. But then when you feel fulfilled, you're aware of how the... how much the world is constantly trying to tell us that you'll only be fulfilled when.

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:27 When you've got this or when you've done this.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 But I would submit-

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:30 And that's

Narrator 1:07:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 I would submit that you are a very intelligent, introspective person, and I think that's rare.

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 I don't think a lot of people (laughs) feel very fulfilled. A lot of people-

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:39 See, we have a different view of human nature.

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 Oh.

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:41 I think most human beings are really good people who just wanna get along and that they're, they're not-

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Oh, I agree with that. I agree with that.

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:49 Wait. But what don't you agree with?

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Well, I agree most human beings are really good people that wanna get along, but I think they will give in to the siren song of, of-

Jenny Kleeman 1:07:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 ... materialism and technology and all these different things, because I don't think they're as introspective as you are. You're looking at it and you're like, "This is perfect. I've got this. I don't need anymore."

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 "This is fine. I realize all the things that are fucking up my life and fucking up society, and I'm not going to give into that." But you're an author. You're someone who thinks all the time.

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:16 Well, then maybe that's what we need.

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 You literally spend hours every day thinking.

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:19 We need to encourage critical thinking.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 Yes. Yeah, oh that... Agreed 100%.

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:22 There isn't really enough of that and at the moment, like, particularly in the way that we communicate now, which is about, uh, people being angry and then other people being angry and then other people enjoying watching the two sides fight. The, the, the skill of being able to think critically and to, to enjoy the gray area where, yeah-

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Yes. Yeah.

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:40 ... both sides are kind of right here. I... You know, I think that we're gonna move away from this era because it's... You know, I don't think we're gonna get more and more polarized 'cause there's only so far that we can all go without all killing each other, basically. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 Yeah, we're pretty far polarized.

Jenny Kleeman 1:08:54 And I think that... We're pretty far apart and, you know, and in, and in the UK as well, you know? But, uh, eventually, I think when we are no longer enjoying being spectators or participants in this sort of violent debate, um, you know, we'll, we'll be looking, we'll be able to look at the gray area and, and look at what's valuable in that. And we need to encourage critical thinking and not just take, not taking sides, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 I agree with you 100%.

Jenny Kleeman 1:09:18 I agree.

Joe Rogan 1:09:18 And I hope... Uh, this is where it gets ironic, because I feel like conversations like this are what help people because they... You... It resonates. What you're saying resonates with people. They hear your words and they go, "She's right. She's right. I got... I'm, I'm going to adjust. I'm gonna adjust the way I think." But it's technology that's got us to this position in the first place. We're more polarized now with more connection than we've ever had before. We have more connection with each other than ever before. But the problem is that connection is very crude. It's very clunky.

Jenny Kleeman 1:09:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 And through text-

Jenny Kleeman 1:09:50 It's the quality of the connection.

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 1:09:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 It's through texting and this, this weird thing we're doing with Twitter and Instagram. It's like the... We're more connected, but we're more connected in a way that doesn't... We don't feel it. And so-

Jenny Kleeman 1:10:05 I'll tell you what-

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 ... we're more polarized.

Jenny Kleeman 1:10:07 ... what, what really... The big difference now is that, you know... A friend of mine said to me, he's totally right, and it's something that I've discovered over the past five, 10 years, that if you want a superpower, the superpower is to listen, to really listen to what, what people are actually saying, and not what you want them to say or, or how you... You know, to really, really properly listen. Because people are just not listening to people anymore.

Joe Rogan 1:10:29 Yes.

Jenny Kleeman 1:10:29 And I have... You know, in one respect, I w- I write books and I write really long articles, and when I do those interviews with people, I, I interview them for a long time and I transcribe it all myself. I don't use a computer or pay anyone else to do it, and it's so dull and I hate it.

Joe Rogan 1:10:43 (laughs)

Jenny Kleeman 1:10:43 But that's where I really understand what people are saying and that's where I get all the ideas for structure. And then I have another part of my... Of work that I do is I present a, a radio show, which is completely the different... A different thing where w- I'm interviewing people for like six or seven minutes