EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,405 words- 0:02 – 1:18
Setting the stage: Kleeman’s book and why these tech topics matter
- NANarrator
(drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- NANarrator
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Hello, Jenny.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Hello, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.
- JKJenny Kleeman
I'm totally psyched to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Y- my pleasure. So your book, Sex Robots & Vegan Meat, did you have alternative titles that you-
- JKJenny Kleeman
I'm really, really shit at titles.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
I just can't think of-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a good title. I thought it was an excellent one.
- JKJenny Kleeman
It's a brilliant title.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It works well.
- JKJenny Kleeman
It's, it's my editor Chris's title. It's not my title.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah. Did you have ideas?
- JKJenny Kleeman
So I ... I had really bad ones.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
I think when I wrote the proposal, it was called Future Humans or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And he just said, "No, no, no, no, no." I can't do high ... I can't do titles. I write things that are very, very long. I can't do nice little short things. So anyway, my, my, uh, my editor, my editor at the publishing house, Picador, came up with the title and I loved it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, he nailed it. Excellent job, Chris.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Way to go.
- JKJenny Kleeman
He's a smart guy. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it just ... It, it really covers the subject matter so well and so, uh, succinctly. So I am concerned with all the things you appear to be concerned with, so I'm really excited about this conversation. Um-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Good.
- 1:18 – 3:18
Sex robots as relationships without empathy
- JRJoe Rogan
F- let's, let's start with sex robots since it's the first part. Um, I, uh, d- I'm sure you've seen Ex Machina.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes, I have.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, fantastic movie, right?
- JKJenny Kleeman
Brilliant. Yes, totally.
- JRJoe Rogan
And confusing, because I think there will be a time, whether it's in our grandchildren's life or when, where that's a real concern, where we do have artificial humans that don't have any empathy. They're programmed whatever way we decide to program them and they're insanely similar to us.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And people are gonna have sex with them.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes. It's, it's this idea that, I mean, uh, there are people who are working on this stuff now. That's what my book is about. It's about, like I went and met the people who are doing this stuff now. We have this idea that comes from science fiction of like Ex Machina or Pris from Blade Runner of these like totally perfect beings who are really dangerous. And that doesn't exist at the moment, but it is going to exist. It is going to exist. At some point there will be something extremely realistic that gives a very good illusion of being human even though it's not. And, uh, there are lots of reasons to be concerned about this and there are some really solid kind of feminist reasons to be concerned about this 'cause the vast majority of, of the robots being made at the moment are in the female form.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Um, but for me, the thing that I was worried about is what happens in a future where it's possible to have a relationship where only one half of the partnership matters, where you don't have to have empathy for your other half. You don't have to care about what their ambitions are, what their desires are. They'll always laugh at your jokes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
They never get their period. You never have to meet their family. And what is that gonna do to us as human beings when we don't, we, when empathy is no longer a requirement of the relationship?
- JRJoe Rogan
Jenny, the way you're wearing your microphone, it's rubbing against your clothes-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause you're trying to look cooler.
- JKJenny Kleeman
'Cause I move about too much. There we go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, there, there we go.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Is that better?
- JRJoe Rogan
Perfect. Excellent.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Excellent. (laughs)
- 3:18 – 10:16
Transhumanism, Neuralink, and the fear of human obsolescence
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that i- that is a real concern. And I, I've thought about this a lot, um, because I, I, I've, I'm very concerned with ... There's two th- two ways of, of looking at it. One way of looking at it, like we, at one point in time, there were single-celled organisms-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then m- millions and millions of years later, you have human beings. Why would we assume that this is the end? It's clearly not. There, there will be better iterations. And I have a feeling that one of the ways we're going to bring that about is through technology, and my real fear is that there will be no more biological life. My real fear is that we will slowly integrate, we'll be symbiotic with some sort of technological creation, and then eventually we'll realize, well, all the things that are holding us back are, they're biologically based, whether it's sex or gender or emotions or all these different things that seem to cause conflicts. And then if we figure out a way to convince this, uh, you know, future version of human beings to just give in to the matrix, that's our future.
- JKJenny Kleeman
You know what? I would've kind of agreed with you on that take about a year ago, except for what's happened over the past year, which has just smacked us in the face, reminding us that biology always wins and that we're much more likely to be wiped out by some biological thing that we have no control over whatsoever. Because ultimately, that t- that kind of reading of the future, um, depends on this idea that we will be able to control things really well, that there'll be nothing that kind of comes out of left field that can, can destroy us. But I think they'll probably try-
- JRJoe Rogan
But wouldn't that be ... I'm sorry, but wouldn't that be a great argument that biology's the issue? 'Cause if we did have something that we could put our consciousness in that is not, doesn't have problems with viruses, wouldn't that be like an excellent solution to the problem that we're in? Because we have a problem with our immune systems because we're essentially symbiotic organisms already, right? We have all these-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... bacteria and all these d- different life forms that live within us, and you know, the, the, if the balance is off or your immune system is bad, then a virus gets in there, you're, you're basically being attacked by another life force.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah. Well, yes, but I'd say that's the difference between a perfect world and, and a real world. And I think it would be almost impossible for us to be, be able to develop technological solutions that were perfect that didn't have glitches in them where you could upload yourself faithfully and exist in this sort of realm of consciousness where you were separate from your body. There would be problems with that, and you'd be relying on this technology to em- embody you in many ways.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And I just basically think that technology can't s- that it can't solve everything. Technology can do fantastic things, but it can't solve... The most important human problems have to be solved by changing human behavior rather than relying on technology.
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe. (laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
Maybe.
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I, I, I see what you're saying, but most technology, although it's not totally reliable, is more reliable than human beings. Like, your phone works and is... It's much more consistent than most humans.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Occasionally, your phone will screw up if you drop it a lot, but so will people. If you drop them on their heads, they'll screw up as well.
- JKJenny Kleeman
But you're relying... You're giving the person who creates that technology a lot of your trust-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
...and you're giving them a lot of power. And so essentially, that phone is only as good as the person who made it and as, as much as they're fulfilling their pledge to give you what they say they're giving you. And actually, you're disempowering yourself if you're relying on a piece of technology that's created by a corporation, uh, to do something that you could do yourself, basically. And so that's what... My book is about kind of, like... Well, what I've been looking at is these fundamental parts of human nature and how we're, like, relying on technology to solve problems for us because it's a bit of a shortcut to say, "Okay, I'm gonna get a machine to do that. I'm gonna get a machine to be my girlfriend or machine to do any of these other things." Um, but in fact, there's lots of unintended consequences of doing that. And in fact, you kind of... You, you take away some of your agency if you're relying on a machine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you certainly do. M- my general concern is that we will be, uh, just... That we won't be necessary. I, I think this, uh, this idea of human beings and agency and all these things are, are wonderful if we decide to stay human. But what I'm concerned with is when... You know, I talked to Elon Musk, and he was telling me about Neuralink. And Neuralink is going to radically increase the bandwidth between human beings and information. When you start-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
...stuffing wires into people's brains and you make some sort of weird Bluetooth connection to an app or some other piece of technology and that allows you to interface with it and, and, and have access to information at a, um, a much more rapid pace-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
...that seems the beginning of the end of what we call the biological human. I'm, I'm really worried about this. I'm not, I'm not worried in a sense, but I, I see the writing on the wall, and I, I see people as having a, a, a short lifespan, in terms of, like, this, this version of human being that we're enjoying right now. I don't, uh, I don't think this is gonna last.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Well, it's certainly not gonna last because something's gonna come and, and wipe us out. But whether or not it's... Whether or not we're superseded by technology depends on a whole lot of things. It depends on everybody having this technology all over the world, and it depends on this technology working properly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And I think there will always be people who, people who can't get their hands on it, who will be living in a different way and maybe a better way. And while we all get wiped out 'cause we're all connecting to Bluetooth and telepathically, uh, you know, being inside each other's consciousnesses, consciousnesses and, and getting-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
...messed up because of it, there'll be people who can't afford this technology, who will be just quietly forging ahead. I mean, I guess this is the whole thing. It's like the difference between... You never know where technology is gonna take you until you put it in practice. Like, even the iPhone, like, when Steve Jobs in- in- invented the iPhone, he, his projections, his kind of most ambitious hope was that it would take 1% of the market in the first year. Like, he had no idea we would all become completely addicted to these things and that we can't put them down. And, and this is the thing. Nobody knows where it's all gonna go. It might wipe us out, but, you know, there will always be people who don't have it who, who, who survive that apocalypse.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, there are some people in remote parts of the world that don't have phones now, but that's what's fascinating. If you go back to, like, the, the movie Wall Street when Michael Douglas is on the beach and he has that big brick phone and he's a, a baller. He's a big player. He's got this crazy phone.
- JKJenny Kleeman
(laughs)
- 10:16 – 16:20
Inequality accelerators: brain chips and artificial wombs
- JRJoe Rogan
Very poor people in Third World countries, they all have cell phones. Um, I feel like that is probably going to be what's happening with all future tech, and that the rich people have it or- originally, initially, and then it'll trickle down to other folks as well. The... But the real worry, like, when we're talking about haves and have-nots now, like, that's a big issue today, is income inequality. Well, when you have people that ha- can afford Neuralink or whatever the n- the next version of that is or future iterations, if it really is that effective and it makes you that much more productive, you're gonna have a massive advantage, you know, assuming it works-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
...over people that are just naturally using their biological brains, and the gap will be even wider. And then there'll be real revolt.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah. Yeah. And also with things like, for example, like, uh, artificial wombs, if you can, if you can be pregnant without anyone-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Well, if you can have a baby without anyone being pregnant, then there will be a great inequality between women who can kinda carry on working and not, not have to deal with all of this stuff happening to their bodies. And, you know, companies might pay for your... You to grow your baby in a lab or in a bag instead of inside your body and you can carry on working. And then there's a future where, like, being visibly pregnant might be a sign of, of, of having an unplanned pregnancy or, or, uh, of low status or of being a, like, a pretty bad mother because you hadn't really thought about it. Like, this technology-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
...has the, has the ability to create enormous, not just, like, advantage and disadvantage, but also...... reinforcing class pro- problems in, in a really huge way, 'cause we will end up looking down on people who don't have the ability to, like, participate in this new, uh, in this new world where there are opportunities provided by this technology.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and that's ... The- now we're getting really into the weirdness, right? Because we're, we're really talking about money more than we're talking about the developum- development of a human being, because, uh, uh, s- you know, you're a mother. Strange things happen when you have a baby inside of you. You have a connection-
- JKJenny Kleeman
I do.
- JRJoe Rogan
... with the baby. The baby has a very bizarre connection with you and the outside world through you and your feelings and senses. And to pawn all that off on some fucking robot just seems really weird. I, I hope that never happens. That, that freaks me out.
- JKJenny Kleeman
But it ... It's kind of already happening now, though, because ... Well, it is already happening th- now in one respect, in that they're doing experiments with animals where they're doing it. But it's already happening now with surrogacy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Surrogates, yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
I mean, all, all of the arguments that you make now about, you know, the connection, the bond and all of that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... you could ... They apply to, to surrogates as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And surrogacy is a very, very, uh, you know, difficult area, uh, ethically to get into-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... but it's the only way a lot of people have of having babies at the moment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, and then th- that also is a, an issue with income inequality comes into play as well with that.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. With people that really don't wanna do it, and they do it because it's the only way they can earn a large sum of money, so they carry other people's babies inside of them. It's weird.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah, I mean, y-
- JRJoe Rogan
Weird stuff.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Y- yeah, you're renting ... You are renting out your body.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Even if you're doing it for the most noble reasons, to give, to give the greatest joy to a couple, you are basically saying, "Okay, you can have this part of my body for nine months."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, w- uh, like, what, what we were talking about earlier, like, I'm with you. I love human beings. I love-
- JKJenny Kleeman
(laughs)
- 16:20 – 27:27
From filters to CRISPR: engineered beauty and its social fallout
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure. What is better, right? What, what's better is h- are you enjoying it more? Do you feel more fulfilled and happy? And arguably, more people are depressed and more p- people feel disconnected because of technology than ever. If you've read ... Um, y- you know Jonathan Haidt? Have you read his book, The Coddling of the American Mind?
- JKJenny Kleeman
I haven't.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's an excellent book, and in particular, when it, it discusses children and h- growing up with technology and social media in particular, how difficult it is. And, uh, and for girls especially, for whatever reason, they, uh, experience more bullying and more, more, um, depression. There's more cutting, more suicides, and there's a giant uptick that coincides directly with the advent of social media and cellphones. It's really weird, because there's this thing that we're adding into our life that causes all these complications and is incredibly addictive. Uh, I have a 12-year-old daughter, and, uh, it's hard to get her to put her phone down. Like, "Hey. Put that down." She has a time. She can only use it for an hour, and then, then I just won't let her use it anymore. But-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But during that hour, it's like, "Agh!" Like a feast. You know, it's crazy. It's, it's, it's weird to see and it's disturbing. And part of it is, I, I see, I see her enjoying it. I see her doing TikTok and laughing with her friends and taking pictures with weird filters. But part of me thinks th- this is a little demon that works its way into your life, and it makes you unsatisfied and unhappy. A lot... For a lot of people, the, the weird, uh, comparison aspect-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... particularly when you're an adolescent, it's very dangerous for kids.
- JKJenny Kleeman
That's what it is. I mean, that that is the kind of key to being unhappy, is comparing yourself with other people. I mean, the key to happiness is to not compare yourself to other people-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... and just be happy with your lot. But, you know, it's not just teenagers. I'm completely addicted to my phone. I remember one time I p- I put my phone in to be repaired. The screen was cracked, and I was just ... I felt like I'd lost a, a limb. I was constantly thinking, "Oh, it's my phone." And then re- having to remind myself that, you know, it was in for repairs. They are incredibly addictive things, and, you know, can have a very incredibly powerful effect on your brain. You know, all of that stuff that's proven about the dopamine hit you get when you get a notification. We're all prone to that, not just, not just, uh, teenagers. But yeah, the comparison stuff. And also, there's the fact that I think we're now living in a world where we, we ... The problems that we have are not huge, existential problems. We're not constantly living with death around us all the time. Although maybe this year things are slightly different. But, uh, you know, in a world where we're not constantly under threat, we are kind of ... Our kind of sphere of, of what should concern us has got smaller, and we're end- we're kind of cannibalizing ourselves and looking for problems-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... creating problems. Whereas in the past, we would have been too busy, you know, running away from tigers or wherever and whatever you might think.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, for sure. Um, and there's, there's other issues also where people are comparing themselves with things that aren't real, like filters and all this weird stuff. Um, I posted a, uh, picture on my Instagram that my 10-year-old took of me. We were at dinner and I made a ugly face and she put me through this filter and turned me into a beautiful girl.
- JKJenny Kleeman
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And it, it's really bizarre. And I posted it up on my Instagram, said, "This is me." Like, uh, "I want you to know how crazy this is." I showed the original picture, and then I showed the picture that my daughter created. I'm like, "This is how insane these filters have gotten." They- it gave me hair, it gave me beautiful lips and smooth skin, and it's... And it, and, and people were s- were stunned 'cause there's a lot of people... I didn't know that it existed until my daughter did it to me, like till she showed me. I mean, I knew that it was pretty similar, that you could do some weird stuff with filters, but I didn't kn- I had no idea you could turn a, uh, uh, an ugly man into a beautiful girl. Like, it's r- it's really weird. So there's a lot of girls-
- JKJenny Kleeman
And people are having, like... People are having, like, surgery so that they can look like filters as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
They're so used to seeing themselves in this way. And I don't know if you have this so much i- in, in the US, but we certainly have here, this fashion for incredibly big lips and, and young girls having loads and loads of stuff put in their lips. And so they begin to look more and more like, you know, cartoons because that's the kind of perfection that they're used to seeing in these images.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. We, we do have that, unfortunately. It's, it's a weird one. I think people got so used to boobs being ridiculously big that they thought that, "Well, we'll just do that with lips too." But-
- JKJenny Kleeman
And butts.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and butts. The butt one is very strange. But it... But, it's, it's all weird, but it just... It ch- it changes the geometry of your face and it makes people weird. Like, they, they get odded out by you. They see you with the lips and like-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Oh, that... Those lips don't go with that face." Like, "Why are, why are those lips on that face?" Like, people who have thick lips, it l-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... generally, if they're... naturally have thick lips, you know, there's the Fibonacci sequence with your face. It works. You see it.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're like, "Oh, that, that's your face. That, th- those beautiful lips belong on your face." But when someone has, like, thin skin and, like, angular, narrow features and these crazy, fucked up lips, it's, it's... Your, your, your body, like, g- you gasp. Like, you tighten up when you see it. Like, "Oh, what have you done?" Like, "What have you done to your face?"
- JKJenny Kleeman
See, I think when people in the future look back on us, like when we look back on, I don't know, two or three centuries ago where people wore those tiny corsets and think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... "Oh my God, I can't believe that was in fashion," I think people in the future will either look back on us and, and just laugh that we, we did this to our lips, or they will all have lips like that and look back at you and me and think, "Ugh." (laughs) Who knows-
- 27:27 – 37:44
The return to sex robots: consent, abuse simulation, and “slave” companions
- JRJoe Rogan
It's normal, yeah. Um, the, the sex robot thing, I share the same concerns that you have about the, the ... there's a thing that people do when we get to know each other. We, w- we want each other to like each other. And as we grow up with, you know, as boys grow up with girls, they learn how ... what girls like and girls learn what boys like, and we learn to be better people because we want other people to like us. It's part of the whole process of the development of a human being. If all of a sudden you can have sex with this perfect woman that you could spit on and pee on and do everything and she's always gonna be there for you, we ... I mean, uh, it's, it's a gross image, I'm sorry, but this is the real worry, that there's no consequence to any of your actions and you could do whatever you want. It's, it's like ... there's a video game mode called God Mode. I don't know if you play video games. But it's the most boring thing in the world, 'cause when you play on God Mode, you can't die. So all of the consequences of playing the video game have been removed. Like, when you play a video game, you have a certain amount of life, you have a finite lifespan. You know, if you're playing a, like, a shooter game, you have a finite amount of bullets and you gotta run around and find more bullets. That's part of the fun of the game, is that you could ... it could end, you could lose. But when there's no consequence ... and ... and I, I feel like there's gotta be the same thing in dating, right? If you're n- not nice to people, they don't call you back, they don't like you. And then you go, "Well, what have I done wrong?" And then you learn and you grow.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Exactly, and that-
- JRJoe Rogan
If there's no learning and growing-
- JKJenny Kleeman
You need feedback-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... in your relationships. And y- you need to not ... this is the thing. It's about having a domestic echo chamber, to have something in your house that is always laughing at your jokes and always likes the same music as you and the same movies as you. Unless you program it to disagree with you, but then again, all that matters is what you want.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JKJenny Kleeman
I think that's gonna be very damaging and corrosive. And particularly, because the people who are making this stuff at the moment justify it by saying, "We are making this for people who otherwise wouldn't have a relationship - bereaved people, socially awkward people-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
"... um, people who are disabled. We're giving them a chance to have some sort of companionship which, um, they wouldn't be able to have otherwise." But what those people need is they need some human contact, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
They, they will be further isolated by having this kind of perfect illusion o- o- of a partner, because that's ... it's, it's just not reality. The whole point about human beings is they're unpredictable and they disagree with you and, and they have in-laws and, and menstrual cycles and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
... you know, ambitions and stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And, and y- you know, it's, it's incredibly important a- you know, to grow as an individual to not always get everything you want. Yeah, I'm totally with you on that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Uh, it's like that scene in Ex Machina where you realize that the, the genius has this bizarre sexual relationship with these robots that he's created, and particularly the, uh, the Asian robot where he can kinda tell her what to do, and you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. Is that a ... that's not a person, but why do I feel like it's a person? Like, I feel like he's a fucking creep, but it's not a person he's doing this to. Wow."
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it, it sort of highlights these w- uh, strange dilemmas. Like, you're gonna create a nation of sociopaths with th- w- oddly perfect female companions.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yes. And, and almost kind of worse than that is, I interviewed these, these, um, sex robot manufacturers in China who make very, very realistic, uh, sex dolls that they're putting AI and animatronics into, but really, really realistic. The AI isn't so great, but they look really realistic. And, and I, I asked them, you know, "How come you're doing this?" And they said that, um, actually what this is really ultimately about is about having service robots in the home, that ultimately you can have robots that will cook and, and clean for you at the moment, but they look like movable trash cans and, and they're not appealing. "And so actually what we're doing is making them look nice so you want to have them in your house, and if you want to have sex with them, you can."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
And what that description is basically of, is a slave.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Like, this is what they're making, is slaves. They're making things that look human but will do all the things that human beings don't necessarily want to do. Uh, and so my concern is, you know, there's a whole branch of ethics about, you know, should robots have rights and, you know, are we, you know, should we, should they ha- should they have legal protections? I'm not so much interested in that. I'm interested in what does it do to you, the robot owner, if you have this relationship with a being that looks very, very human but isn't human? Uh, and it, the mindset of being a slave owner where you, you, you can suspend your empathy for something that looks very human, how does it corrode you and affect you to be having that kind of relationship?
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I see a Black Mirror episode ready to happen, right?
- JKJenny Kleeman
Totally.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, p- and then I see like someone pretending that they have robots but they really have human slaves.
- JKJenny Kleeman
That's a really good idea.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
You should make one. (laughs)
- 37:44 – 59:19
Can laws stop it? Normalization, loopholes, and tech’s ‘cat out of the bag’ problem
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think that people will propose laws to prevent this? Like once it starts seeming like it's inevitable, once the general public goes, "Hey, wait a minute, like, this is not good," and then people realize that their romantic relationships, like they're gonna be replaced-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... men and women. And women too. I mean, women are gonna be tired of men's bullshit, you know? And they're gonna-
- JKJenny Kleeman
I think that's probably true, but then, I mean, I can't speak for all women here. Um, but I think certainly my experience, and, and I don't think this is a minority view, is that women find the idea of having sex with something that you don't know genuinely wants you to be very unsexy indeed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And it's much harder. Like all of th- those RealDolls, they make male RealDolls. They're bought by gay men. Like women-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
... it takes a l- it's very, very difficult. It's not sexy to ha- to, to have sex with something that, that isn't really into you basically. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't that kind of the same thing with Playgirl? Like Playgirl-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the idea was well, women should have a magazine like Playboy too. Like, okay, you know who buys it? Gay men.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Men and girls.
- JKJenny Kleeman
The female sexuality is very, very ... it's a very, very different thing. But I do think there'll be women who want companions. And so forget about the sex. There'll be women having relationships certainly, uh, with, with very realistic male robots too, definitely. Um, but in terms of whether or not there are gonna be laws against this, there's a campaign against sex robots in the UK that at first was trying to get laws banning sex robots or the development of sex robots in the UK, and now has kind of softened their stance and says they, they just want proper discussion ahead of maybe making some laws. But the point is the cat is out of the bag. We could, you know, we could ban it in the UK. People would be making them in Korea-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... or in somewhere unless there's a kind of global decision not to do this. And there are too many rogue states for, for, for this not to happen. So it is gonna happen. Um, and always, you know, the law is really out of step with technology. You know, if you look at things like revenge porn, something that we know instinctively is so wrong, it's been really hard to criminalize because of the way that we all live now. Everybody's taking pictures. Everybody's sending them all the time. People can upload them and ruin someone's life in a moment. And it, you know, the law is kind of grinding on slowly trying to keep up with all of this. And so for example, in the UK the, what's illegal in terms of sex dolls is i- if you... You're not allowed to import, um, a child sex doll. So it's the importation of it that's illegal, not having one, but trying to get it into the country just because the laws are kind of so old and creaky. So I don't think actually it's something that we can stop with laws. We can stop it by saying, "Actually, I don't want this and I'm prepared to accept compromise in my relationships and I'm prepared to accept that in order for me to grow as a person, I need to be challenged and not constantly in a relationship where all that matters is what I want."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Uh, I mean, all those things sound right. I, uh, I, I agree with you. Um, it, it's not that I'm saying, "No, no, no, you're wrong. It would be better if these sex robots took over." My, my, my real worry is that it doesn't matter what we think is right, that technology always goes towards innovation. It always goes towards improvements. It always goes towards technology advancing where it's more effective, more available, easier, better, cheaper, faster. This is what we always do. This is what we've done with every single thing we've ever invented, and it's gotta happen with that as well.
- JKJenny Kleeman
But I think the difference between our position is that you think the march of technology is completely inevitable and, and that there's nothing we can do to kind of shape it or stop it. It's just gonna happen. Whereas I think, I think none of this is inevitable. And I think human beings are, are capable of, uh, you know, adapting and changing without technology. And like this year is a really good example of this, that we're all waiting for a vaccine. The vaccine has not arrived. And so we've, we've kind of saved ourselves by changing our behavior and changing our behavior in a kind of altruistic way by staying at home even though like we might not get sick with coronavirus or wearing masks for other peoples' benefit. I think human beings are really adaptable and we, we can adapt by changing our behavior rather than relying on technology. And this march of technology only exists if we continue to always think that technology is the, is the solution. People have to make this stuff and people have to buy this stuff in o- in order for it to march on. And we always have the power to say, "You know what? I don't want it."
- JRJoe Rogan
I think reasonable people like yourself, yes, that's going to happen. But clearly you've seen videos of spring break in Fort Lauderdale where kids are-
- JKJenny Kleeman
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... n- making out half naked on the beach. Nobody gives a fuck about coronavirus. And then there's maps that show the spread of them leaving Florida and going all through the rest of the country and then-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah, but there, but there's a critical mass of people.
- JRJoe Rogan
... all these infections that show up there.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Totally. But there's a critical mass of... There's enough people that are being reasonable that when those things happen, it's really shit and, and people get ill, but it's not the end of the world. That's the point. I think most people-... are, are all reasonable and are able to behave in a kinda way where, where the good (snaps fingers) kind of wins out.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think I agree with you on a lot of these things. However, when I look at human beings, I try to look at human beings as if I was from another planet, as if I was an alien, and I looked at them without any connection to the way they think or behave or their culture.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I said, "Well, what do these things do?" Well, this is what they do. They make technology. All they do is make technology. They're obsessed with materialism, which plays into technology. It plays into this want and need for the bigger, better, faster, greater thing that comes around every year, and that's what fuels them to work every day. They go to work and they, they toil, and one of the things they, they reward themselves with is the newest, greatest thing. And this is the fuel for this technological growth, and this technological growth appears unstoppable because it seems like that's all the human animal does. If you looked at it from afar objectively, all I'm seeing is a constant wave of technology.
- JKJenny Kleeman
But I don't think that's true because we don't just make technology. We also talk to each other and we communicate like you and I are now, and we have discussions and we are capable of incredible change, and that we can live in a world where, uh, you know, it was okay to keep slaves and impregnate your wife every year and, and, and k- keep her in the kitchen. But through having these discussions, we can really, really change the way we live very drastically from one generation to the next. It's not just technology, you know? It's also... What defines a human being is that we use technology and that we're social animals, and those are two different things. And, and the idea that the, the, the technological advancement is always gonna win out isn't necessarily one I buy.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm not saying that it's gonna win out. I don't think it's gonna win out. I think it's just, it's inevitable, and I think we're gonna find-
- JKJenny Kleeman
But they're both inevitable, and, and, and as a society, we can make change just as much as we can make change by using technology.
- 59:19 – 1:10:07
Control, consumerism, and the loss of perspective (phones, lights, and the stars)
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you ever go camping?
- JKJenny Kleeman
I'm not a big camper, but I have been camping, yes, many times.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the interesting thing about camping is if you do it for enough days, you realize that your brain, when it gets dark out, you start preparing to go to sleep. And inste- and normally, you know, like 8:00 at night, I'm wide awake. I'm wide awake for several hours at 8:00 PM but when I'm camping at 8:00, it's like, "Well, let's get ready. Let's eat and crash." You know, you sit around the campfire, talk a little bit, and you get ready to go to sleep. That's just what people-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Same.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's- it's... But that's your- your natural cycle. We've circumvented that with lights and-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Absolutely. I mean, if- if you look at the, you know, the effect of technology on human beings, it doesn't have to be something as fancy as a perfect sex robot. Lights.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Like artificial lighting has changed human society, human brain chemistry. If you look at 150 years ago when everybody want, you know, went to bed, and it's just simple things that we don't have to go to sleep as soon as it get d- gets dark anymore.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JKJenny Kleeman
How much we have changed because of that. It's incredible. So that's the other thing, is the things that really hav- have a, have potential for radical change on- on human society and human behavior and human biology, they don't have to be very fancy and high tech. You don't have to have Elon Musk's, you know, Bluetooth brain chip to just be alive.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's al- there's one even more insidious aspect for lights, and that's, it's disconnected us from the universe.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, one of the things that you realize when you do go camping, when there's no lights is, oh my God, we're in space.Like, you see all the stars, and it's extraordinary.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you go, like... I went to, uh, the Keck Observatory once in Hawaii. Well, I've been a few times, but one time I nailed it, where I went where there was no moon and the sky was clear, and it was stunning. And to this day, I still, I'll close my eyes sometimes and try to remember that, remember what it was like. Because you could see the whole Milky Way. You could see every... The Keck Observatory's very high, um, on the Big Island, and, um, it's above the clouds. And in fact, when we were driving there, it was cloudy and I was like, "Damn, this is gonna suck. We're gonna get all the way up there and we can't see anything 'cause of these clouds." But then you pop through the clouds, and then you get to the observatory, and it is amazing. The just... Without looking through a telescope, just the amount of stars that you see, it's so stu- And it changes your relationship to-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to life and, and to this experience that we're having here on Earth. We're so delusional. When we don't see any stars, when we have streetlights and we're looking at our phone or we're watching TV, we have this bizarre idea of what life is. But then when you're there and there's nothing but the stars and the sky, you go, "Oh, no, this is an organic spaceship." We're hurling through space on this ball. And I, I thought this was everything, but it's nothing. When you see all those stars, it, it just, it's, it humbles you in a way that our ancestors were humbled, and why they were so obsessed with the constellations, why they were bso- so- obsessed with the zodiac signs and all, all, all the, the, the different ways that they used... would study all the lights in the sky and try to, uh, figure out what kind of relationship we had with those lights.
- JKJenny Kleeman
Yeah, and that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
We've, we've lost all that.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... the thing. We, we've lost the context and the, the perspective on our existence that w- that wa- that we need, really. But then again, also, would we, could we really function if we were constantly aware of how, you know, infinitesimally small and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure, we could.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... incomp-
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure we could.
- JKJenny Kleeman
I guess it would liberate us-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
... from, from being so obsessed with gazing at our own navels.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) I think it would probably be humbling in a way, that it would eliminate a lot of unnecessary hubris. I think there's a lot of dumb shit that we do that is connected to this sort of dulled perception of our place in the universe. And I think if we could see it and it could humble us the way it humbled the Mayans and all these other-
- JKJenny Kleeman
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... civilizations that were constantly fixated on the, the celestial gods and all the, all the different lights in the skies, I think, uh, I think it would be better for us. And I... But I think... My fear is that all of this is like, we're m- Uh, and again, this is looking at it outside of, uh, a human being. But all of this is leaning us towards this complete and total immersion in technology. And one of the best ways to get us to not think about our position in this vast, infinite universe is that we don't see it.
- 1:10:07 – 1:17:46
Why long-form conversation matters: listening as a ‘superpower’ and the rise of podcasts
- JKJenny Kleeman
... what, what really... The big difference now is that, you know... A friend of mine said to me, he's totally right, and it's something that I've discovered over the past five, 10 years, that if you want a superpower, the superpower is to listen, to really listen to what, what people are actually saying, and not what you want them to say or, or how you... You know, to really, really properly listen. Because people are just not listening to people anymore.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JKJenny Kleeman
And I have... You know, in one respect, I w- I write books and I write really long articles, and when I do those interviews with people, I, I interview them for a long time and I transcribe it all myself. I don't use a computer or pay anyone else to do it, and it's so dull and I hate it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JKJenny Kleeman
But that's where I really understand what people are saying and that's where I get all the ideas for structure. And then I have another part of my... Of work that I do is I present a, a radio show, which is completely the different... A different thing where w- I'm interviewing people for like six or seven minutes and I'm learning, I'm learning the skill of that. And part... The skill of... When you're doing really short interviews, you're meant to kind of ask questions that force people into saying, saying things or, or trap people in a way. And, and the performance is you asking the question rather than you listening to the answer and thinking, "Okay, what would be an, an interesting question to ask next?" And that is much more common. I mean, I love my radio show. I'm not saying my radio show is like that, but I'm saying I, I'm learning how to deal with a world where that's what's traditionally done, is the style of interviewing is a kind of a, a, a dance that you do with people instead of asking a question where you think the answer might be interesting and then really listening to the answer. People don't really do that anymore, and if they did, uh, you know, you can... You know this more than, more than anyone else, the power of giving people proper time and really, really listening and responding, because in the world that we're living in now, people feel like they don't have time for that.
Episode duration: 2:13:22
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode EED-LEWOCv0
