Joe Rogan Experience #1545 - W. Keith Campbell

W. Keith Campbell 0:02 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Keith.

W. Keith Campbell 0:13 Hello, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:13 What's happening, man? Thanks for coming.

W. Keith Campbell 0:15 Oh, thanks for having me. This is great. Great to be in the new studio.

Joe Rogan 0:18 It's polarizing. Some like it, some do not. It, uh, it has a weird effect on people.

W. Keith Campbell 0:25 When-

Joe Rogan 0:25 I didn't th- I never thought it was gonna be a big deal. L- I just thought people would go, "Oh, this place looks weird," and that would be the end of it.

W. Keith Campbell 0:31 Well, it's kind of a interdimensional hyper tube. What, do you... The Red Pill?

Joe Rogan 0:35 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 0:35 What's the name?

Joe Rogan 0:36 Um, some people call it the Red Pill. I don't know. It's just the, the, the studio for now.

W. Keith Campbell 0:42 It's cool.

Joe Rogan 0:43 Thank you.

W. Keith Campbell 0:43 It feels good to be here. Feels-

Joe Rogan 0:44 Thanks, man.

W. Keith Campbell 0:44 ... good. Nice studio.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Feels good to have you here.

W. Keith Campbell 0:46 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:47 We tested you out.

W. Keith Campbell 0:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:48 What were you saying about testing? That it's not g-... Unless you- you're sick, it's not good to test often?

W. Keith Campbell 0:53 Y- yeah. Well, and no. I mean, as a psychologist, you know, when you're doing psychological testing-

Joe Rogan 0:57 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 0:57 ... if I wanted to see if somebody has a mental disorder, I just don't go screen a bunch of people. I wait for somebody to show up in a hospital that's got troubles.

Joe Rogan 1:06 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06 Because if I go gi- give the screen to a bunch of people, I'm gonna find a bunch of people who test as mentally ill but aren't. They're not doing anything wrong. Um, they just have some symptoms, but they might not have all the trouble that brings them to a hospital.

Joe Rogan 1:18 Or maybe they do, but they just never m- make their way to a hospital?

W. Keith Campbell 1:21 Well, or they're, it's, it's working out for them. So, p- part of the...

Joe Rogan 1:25 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 1:25 I'm just kid... Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you can be weird and it works, or you can be an angry person or a mean person or a self-absorbed person, whatever. If it works for you, then it's not a disorder. You kinda just go through your life. If it, if it's impairing, it becomes a disorder and then we treat you.

Joe Rogan 1:42 Mm. But w- how do, how does one define whether or not it's impairing? You're like-

W. Keith Campbell 1:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:46 ... you could argue that the President of the United States has some psychological disorders. But clearly, he, it isn't, hasn't impaired him from being successful unless you check his taxes.

W. Keith Campbell 1:56 (laughs) This is the, this is a debate I've had, uh, or discussion I've had a lot. And the question is, so is somebody like Donald Trump, um, if somebody says he has a disorder and you say, "Well, is billionaire President of the United States who doesn't pay a lot of taxes, guy sounds like he's kinda killing it to me."

Joe Rogan 2:14 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 2:14 How is that a disorder? You know, he's... And somebody else says, "Well, imagine how good he'd be if he was, didn't have any disorders and was totally sane. Imagine if he was doing that but had Pence's personality. He'd really be killing it."

Joe Rogan 2:29 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 2:30 And somebody says, "But Pence doesn't do it 'cause he's not wired that way. You gotta have Trump's personality to do that kinda craziness." So, it's, it's a debate.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Well, not only that, I don't even know what personality Pence has.

W. Keith Campbell 2:40 (laughs) That's the point. I mean, he has-

Joe Rogan 2:42 I have no idea what's in there.

W. Keith Campbell 2:44 He comes across as somebody with a, a very balanced personality. Not very extroverted, but probably very conscientious. You know-

Joe Rogan 2:51 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 2:51 ... very probably moral and upright so he come across as somebody with rectitude, you know?

Joe Rogan 2:57 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 2:57 So, in, in personality terms, we might say he's somebody who's conscientious and probably agreeable, but not really extroverted. Calm.

Joe Rogan 3:05 Is there debate on whether someone should be treated or even someone do, should be discussed as someone who has mental health issues or personality issues even, if they're doing well? 'Cause like the, the way you're describing it, you're saying like, well, someone's successful. They're doing well. Why bother-

W. Keith Campbell 3:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:25 ... looking at these things?

W. Keith Campbell 3:27 To be treated, you need to have clinically significant impairment to get the diagnosis. So, if there's no impairment, it's really not, you're not supposed to treat somebody. At that point, you're just coaching them. You know?

Joe Rogan 3:39 But what if someone is like super successful but they're like, "You know what? I've been talked to lately and, uh, people sat me down and said, 'Hey, man. You're a, you're a narcissist.'"

W. Keith Campbell 3:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:48 "There's something wrong with you.'"

W. Keith Campbell 3:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:50 And then they come to see you and the- and you start talking to them and say, "Well, you have all this good stuff going for you."

W. Keith Campbell 3:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:57 You would still treat them, right?

W. Keith Campbell 3:58 Yeah. So, i- if... (sighs) So, if somebody comes in, though, w- this person's coming in is probably somebody who's very successful in a lot of things and has problems probably in their relationships, like, they're, you know, "My, my marriage is screwed up. My kids hate me. I, I..."

Joe Rogan 4:12 Let's say the President 'cause-

W. Keith Campbell 4:13 Right, yeah. Right.

Joe Rogan 4:14 ... what if he listens to this podcast? And he's like, "You know-"

W. Keith Campbell 4:16 Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Joe Rogan 4:17 "... tremendous, tremendous podcast."

W. Keith Campbell 4:18 (laughs) It's tremendous.

Joe Rogan 4:19 "I, uh, I might have an issue. I'd like to talk to Keith."

W. Keith Campbell 4:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:22 And he, and he decides to talk to you.

W. Keith Campbell 4:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:25 But, but you would say, like, "But you are a billionaire and you're the President and you obviously are doing well." Would you treat him?

W. Keith Campbell 4:33 I would, if, if I were, if Trump actually talked to me and I would say, "Where are those choke points or those problem points in your life where your ego is screwing up your desire to be the best person in the world?"

Joe Rogan 4:45 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 4:45 "You, you, you wanna be the most successful president in the history of the universe. Where is your ego messing you up? Is it, are you tweeting, you know, too much? (laughs) Is that... Are you getting too mean at people who, like, if some rando criticizes you, do you get hostile too quickly and look unstable? Um, you know, is it, is your marriage okay? I don't know. He seems to be okay in that department right now." But I'd sort of look at those points where it's influenced him negatively and say, "What can we do to, to fix those?"

Joe Rogan 5:13 The, it's an interesting descriptor, like the best person you can be or the best person in the world. L- if you did that, maybe you wouldn't be successful. Like, that's part of the issue too, right? Like-

W. Keith Campbell 5:25 W- that's the challenge is that when you look at people... L- let's say you look at, at income.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 5:31 If you, men who are kinda jerks make more money. People who are less agreeable make more money. They're more antagonistic. They're a little more competitive. They're willing to break the rules a little bit. So, there's this balance in life, whereas if you're too nice of a person, you don't, you're not able to break enough things to get ahead. But if you're going around breaking things, you become a tyrant-

Joe Rogan 5:50 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 5:50 ... and no one likes you and everyone wants to take you down.

Joe Rogan 5:52 Well, there, there's also like, what, by what metric are we measuring success? Are we measuring success only in financial success or are we measuring success in like happiness with your friends and your family and, you know, like, a balanced life with your loved ones?

W. Keith Campbell 6:05 Yeah, meaning. And so when we talk about-

Joe Rogan 6:08 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 6:08 ... that, where you're gonna see... If somebody like, you know, Trump or somebody very narcissistic who's very achievement, uh, status-focused, they're gonna succeed at those metrics. Status being number one. Wealth is a pretty good proxy for status, so wealth and status. Where you typically fall apart...... is in those interpersonal realms.

Joe Rogan 6:27 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 6:27 You just don't have the compassion, you don't have the caring, you don't give time for people.

Joe Rogan 6:30 Empathy.

W. Keith Campbell 6:31 You don't have a lot of empathy, and so those, those relationships are usually what suffer. And so with people who are really status-focused, the, the thing that costs is their relationships, 'cause they're, they're pursuing fame or status or whatever. And that's fine, you know? W- Everybody makes those choices. The problem is if you're doing it all the time and you're manipulating people and using people, it, it can be more of a problem.

Joe Rogan 6:54 W- Is there any evolutionary benefit to narcissism? Like, where does that come from? 'Cause does, does it exist in the animal kingdom?

W. Keith Campbell 7:03 Yes, um, so if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, which some people have, narcissism seems to be really good for short-term mating success.

Joe Rogan 7:16 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 7:16 Like if I go to a bar in downtown Austin and I give narcissism questionnaires to all the dudes there, the higher scorers are gonna get the most numbers over time.

Joe Rogan 7:25 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 7:25 That's usually what happens, so narcissism's usually good for short-term mating and it's good for status-seeking, power-seeking. So it's probably beneficial in those contexts and it's, uh, and this is where it gets a little weird because in stable environments, like in research in hunter-gatherer societies, in stable environments if somebody's, you know, cheating on other people's wives or stealing stuff or steals extra food, people don't like that. They'll just kill them. I mean, they'll just go have a hunting accident. If you're in, if you're kind of the dick in the, in the, uh, hunter-gatherer society, they'll take you out and you'll, just won't come back-

Joe Rogan 8:00 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 8:00 ... 'cause they just don't want you.

Joe Rogan 8:01 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 8:02 But, um, so narcissism gets, uh, gets weeded out in those places, but when things get unstable and things are un- you know, uncertain, people who are narcissistic can get a lot of resources and do really well, so sometimes they do well which keeps it around. And obviously in big societies you can become powerful enough to hire henchmen and hire a PR agent and you can kinda build your own status and, and do a lot more than you can in a hunter-gatherer group where everyone knows you.

Joe Rogan 8:29 What is narcissism when you define it? Like what is the, what is your definition of narcissism?

W. Keith Campbell 8:33 So it gets a little more complicated. When we're talking like this, I'm talking about grandiose narcissism and that's, uh, a basic trait.

Joe Rogan 8:40 There's more than one kind of narcissism, right?

W. Keith Campbell 8:42 Yes. Yeah, it's... I'll step back. So when we talk about narcissism, um, in the, in the psychological literature, we're talking about three different things that are related. The first of these is narcissistic personality and this is, uh, a trait and meaning that people go from a high level to a low level. It's not a clinical disorder. And in this trait when it's grandiose, we say grandiose narcissism, it's this combination of sense of entitlement and a sense of superiority but also you get extroversion and drive and ambition, call it agentic extroversion. So somebody who is driven and extroverted but also a little bit self-centered and, and antagonistic and entitled. So that combination of traits, um, kind of a prima donna or, you know, overconfident or cocky or whatever you want to call it, that's what we talk about is, is grandiose narcissism. And that's just a, like I said, normal trait. Um, there's another form of narcissism which we don't talk about as much in the normal world but that's vulnerable narcissism and these are the folks that are, kinda think they're really important, think they should be getting a lot of attention, think they're the smartest people in the room but no one really looks at them, no one pays attention to them.

Joe Rogan 9:58 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 9:58 So they get insecure, they get depressed, their self-esteem drops. They think, you know, "Why aren't I getting the attention I deserve? I'm kind of a legend."

Joe Rogan 10:06 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 10:06 Um, you know, it's a legend in their own minds.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 10:09 You know, so you're talking about these, like, basement narcissists-

Joe Rogan 10:11 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 10:11 ... you know, living in their bom- mom's basement thinking how great they are and fantasizing about it, and those more vulnerable folks you don't see at the bars as much 'cause they're in the basement but you see them clinically because they're depressed and they go see a clinician and say, "Help me out. I'm anxious." So those are the two normal forms of narcissism that are traits, and then there's this clinical form or psychiatric form called narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. And that personality form of nar- personality disorder form of narcissism is an extreme form of narcissism. You have a high level of it, you know, like Trump or, you know, a lot of celebrities or, you know, academics, um, but you also, to make it a clinical disorder, you have to have that impairment we're talking about, so it has to be clinically significant impairment and that's usually the narcissism is so bad your, your marriage, your relationships are falling apart. Your work life could be falling apart, so sometimes you find narcissistic, uh, really successful people in, in offices who are narcissists but they, they kinda destroy the office culture.

Joe Rogan 11:14 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 11:14 They're, they're just bad workers, um, and so you can destroy that. You can make really poor decisions because your ego is so big you just, you know, overinvest in something and, and it just doesn't work out for you so you start dysregulating your, your financial decisions, so you can make kind of those kind of mistakes. The big ones are usually interpersonal, but when you have that kind of impairment it can be a disorder and then you get treated for it.

Joe Rogan 11:38 The vulnerable personality disorder is fascinating.

W. Keith Campbell 11:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:41 That's a fascinating one 'cause l- you, you see a lot of them on social media in particular, right? You see people that b- feel like they should be getting more attention than they are and don't understand why and, and feel upset by that or shortchanged.

W. Keith Campbell 11:57 S- social media is such a strange beast because, um, it, it, it gives everybody the chance to have a camera and have the audience of a billion people, so I could go on there and get a, you know, billion audience, but I have to earn that (laughs) and so you have lots of people that go, "Look, I can have a billion people in my audience, but I don't have those people. Why aren't they there? Who's screwing me over and not giving my... Where are my followers?"

Joe Rogan 12:23 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 12:23 You know, "Why don't I get followers?"

Joe Rogan 12:23 I saw a guy the other day talking about being shadow-banned and he had a thousand friends.

W. Keith Campbell 12:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:29 And I'm like, "Are you sure?"

W. Keith Campbell 12:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:31 "Are you sure you're shadow-banned? Are you sure people are just not interested in what you're saying?" What kind of-

W. Keith Campbell 12:35 Yeah. Maybe you're just not that interesting.

Joe Rogan 12:37 But that's the weirdest thing to ever say, like, I'm being shadow-banned.

W. Keith Campbell 12:42 (laughs) Yeah, 'cause like-

Joe Rogan 12:42 Like, do you have evidence of this? Like, what is, what is happening here?

W. Keith Campbell 12:45 Well, you're kind of a outlaw, outlaw.

Joe Rogan 12:47 Th- this is not saying that shadow-banning's not real but, like, people are using that as an excuse for why they're not getting the d- the attention that they deserve.

W. Keith Campbell 12:56 Right. I would be the next Joe Rogan if it weren't for those dastardly shadow-banners taking me down.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Yeah, holding you back.

W. Keith Campbell 13:02 Holding me back.

Joe Rogan 13:03 They know that they can't silence me.

W. Keith Campbell 13:05 They can't, yeah. They, that if I got out there, I would change the world, but these guys are holding me back.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Yeah. They-

W. Keith Campbell 13:09 And you can see how that turns into, like, a delusional system-

Joe Rogan 13:12 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 13:12 ... if you get, you know, with schizo- more schizophrenia where there's a whole world of people out there trying to hold me down.

Joe Rogan 13:17 Yeah. I wanna get to that too.

W. Keith Campbell 13:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:18 I wanted to ask you if schizophrenia... We might as well get to it right now.

W. Keith Campbell 13:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:22 Is there a connection between schizophrenia and narcissism? Because many people who are schizophrenic have these grandiose ideas-

W. Keith Campbell 13:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:31 ... of who they are or the, who they should be, or where they, they fit in that are these r- ridiculously distorted perceptions of reality.

W. Keith Campbell 13:39 Yeah. I, uh, it's a... So grandiosity you can see with narcissism, you know, with the, you know, "I have this fantasy about how great I am," this illusion, but it's usually within the scope of reality. So if I'm talking to somebody narcissistic, they're like, "I'm a 10. I'm pretty awesome." You're like, "Not really, man. You're just not."

Joe Rogan 13:56 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 13:56 "You're okay but, like, maybe go back to the gym, you know?" But it's usually not, it's not a, it's not crazy.

Joe Rogan 14:03 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 14:03 Um, I was working in a, in a hospital with a woman who, who was a, a patient who said that she worked... She was the tooth fairy and she worked for Reagan as the tooth fairy. I thought, "Well, that's a grandiose delusion." You know, uh, Reagan wasn't president, but he was still helping her behind the scenes. That's a grandiose delusion, but you wouldn't call that narcissistic because she wasn't really... her personality wasn't, wasn't really narcissistic, she was more schizophrenic in her presentation, kind of flat affect, um, a little bit strange, odd or unusual, um, uh, anhedonia, sort of lack of feeling and stuff, but those weird delusions. So you can have those grandiose delusions, but it's not quite the same as narcissism. It seems to be working a little differently. And the other place you see them is mania with, like, bipolar disorder. People get really manic and they get these manic phases and they're like, "I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna build this. I'm gonna take over this. My record's gonna be the best." And, um, and that mania can look like narcissism too, and those are probably more closely linked.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Hmm. Um, w- the, the psychological disorders that we're aware of, the ones like narcissism, the ones like schizophrenia, like, do we know what's happening in the mind that causes a distortion of reality? Is it, is it, is it ego protecting you from the truth? Is it, uh, a chemical imbalance? Is it a series of things that all coincide? Like, when you, when you have someone who's both a narcissist and-

W. Keith Campbell 15:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:38 ... possibly schizophrenic.

W. Keith Campbell 15:41 With narcissism, it's very hard to detect anything that's sort of clearly biological, like a, a... And, and this is true for all personality really. It's, we... People have been looking at this last five years pretty hard for sort of biomarkers or neural structures. Uh, you don't really see them very clearly. You do with schizophrenia. There's some. Um-

Joe Rogan 16:01 What is it with schizophrenia?

W. Keith Campbell 16:02 And I'm sayi- I was gonna say it's not my area and I don't want-

Joe Rogan 16:05 Okay.

W. Keith Campbell 16:05 I, it's... I say... Jamie, if I say anything wrong, just check me and call me out-

Joe Rogan 16:09 All right.

W. Keith Campbell 16:09 ... because I don't wanna screw up anything.

Joe Rogan 16:10 He's the best one-handed Googler on earth.

W. Keith Campbell 16:12 Yeah, please do that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:14 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 16:14 You know, because there's that, you know, there's the old stuff about, you know, bl- um, kind of plaque in the brain and things-

Joe Rogan 16:19 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 16:19 ... like with Alzheimer's you see some missing, uh, neural structure, but that's just out of my area.

Joe Rogan 16:24 I understand.

W. Keith Campbell 16:24 Um, but with personality, you generally don't see it in there. You just can't find it so far. Um, and when you look at genetics, you, you know what's in the genes, but there's no single genes. It's like a-

Joe Rogan 16:34 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 16:34 ... swarms of genes that we don't really understand.

Joe Rogan 16:35 So it isn't that... So if your father is a narcissist, are you more or less likely to be a narcissist?

W. Keith Campbell 16:41 More.

Joe Rogan 16:42 More. But what have you learned from your father? You're like, "My God, my father's ruined his life." Like, many alcoholics-

W. Keith Campbell 16:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:47 ... have children that won't touch liquor, and I've, I've known quite a few of them.

W. Keith Campbell 16:51 Yeah. Yeah. So in the, in the, in the clinical literature, they talk about that as, as sort of that identify- you, you sort of identify with them or you do the opposite of the father.

Joe Rogan 16:59 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 16:59 So if you have the alcoholic father, like you said, and you, you become a teetotaler, or your father's a narcissist and you become really nice.

Joe Rogan 17:05 You know-

W. Keith Campbell 17:06 We don't really see that. What you tend to see... I mean, not saying it doesn't happen 'cause I know it happens, but what you tend to see in the literature with these big family studies is that traits like narcissism and all personality and really all mental disorders, they, they tend to follow family lines, so they're heritable. Um, but it's not really clear how that happens.

Joe Rogan 17:26 So whether it's nurture or nature.

W. Keith Campbell 17:28 Right. I mean, it's, it's in there, but we don't know exactly what the genes are. And when they start to look at the nurture question with a lot of personality, what you find is about... A- and there's... When they break these down into heredity care- coefficients, they don't mean exactly what they sound, but generally you find it's about 50%, 60% heritable, you're born with it, probably genetic, and maybe 10% is parenting, and maybe the other, you know, 30%, 40% is something in the environment that's just not really clear what it is.

Joe Rogan 17:54 The environment? Really?

W. Keith Campbell 17:55 Yeah, just random environment. So that's why, you know, you have kids and you have, you, you have two... I have two daughters. They're very different people. Part of that's genetics, obviously. They're very different and all, but it's also their environment. I might have been a similar parent to both of them, but they're, they have different friends, they grew up in a little different time, a little different-

Joe Rogan 18:12 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 18:12 ... culture, and all those forces affect you in ways you don't really understand.

Joe Rogan 18:17 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 18:17 So a lot of what happens to us is this non-shared environment we just can't really explain. Parenting is pretty small.

Joe Rogan 18:24 Really?

W. Keith Campbell 18:25 Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Um, what we say about parenting is that it, it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it matters.So-

Joe Rogan 18:35 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 18:35 ... (laughs) so I have, I mean, I have two daughters and, and the idea that I could change them into the, one into the other through my parenting skills, you know, I could take my one daughter who loves to dance and I could turn her into the one that loves, you know, math, and I could take the math one and turn her into a... Nah, I couldn't do that in a million years.

Joe Rogan 18:52 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 18:52 They're just different people.

Joe Rogan 18:53 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 18:54 No way. So I can't really shape my kids' personality very well. I mean, parents just can't really do that. But you matter a lot, you know, you put food on the table. You, you pr- you know, a safe environment, you're not threatening the kids, you're not... You know, there's a lot you do as a parent that matters, but you, you can't really fine-tune your kids' personalities very well. I mean, I don't even try. It just, it-

Joe Rogan 19:17 But what, what can you do if you think one of your children has narcissistic personality disorder or is, you know, in e- s- there's a spectrum of narcissism, right?

W. Keith Campbell 19:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:26 Somewhere in there, you're like, "There's something here I have to-"

W. Keith Campbell 19:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:29 ... address.

W. Keith Campbell 19:31 Well, I, I mean, when I, people ask me this a lot 'cause they, they, like, they don't want their kids to be entitled-

Joe Rogan 19:36 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 19:36 ... little jerks. I mean, you, you just don't want that and, and the number one thing is you try not to be that yourself, be a good role model and that's, you know, something, you know, we all struggle with. The advice I give with, with parenting, I hate to call it advice but sort of the mnemonic I give is, is CPR, just so people remember it, but these are things to focus on. So the, the thing with narcissism is having an ego, like your kid's like, "I'm gonna be president." You're not like, "Shut up. You're never gonna be president, you loser."

Joe Rogan 20:04 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 20:05 You know? (laughs) I mean, you just, you're not gonna go beat your ki- you know, it's not-

Joe Rogan 20:08 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 20:08 ... you don't have to stuff your kids, you know, but kids dream, that's great. It's not going at the ego part, it's more going at the interpersonal part more. So when I say CPR, it's compassion, passion, responsibility and, and so the compassion piece is big and so a lot of it with kids is focusing on, like, can you be a nice person? Are you nice to your sister? Are you nice to animals? You know, if your kids are killing, drowning pets-

Joe Rogan 20:31 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 20:31 ... I'd be a little worried, (laughs) you know? But if they're, they're loving pets and they're loving things, and like people who are generally compassionate don't become that narcissistic.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 20:38 They can be a little narcissistic, but it, compassion's a big buffer.

Joe Rogan 20:42 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 20:42 So I think that's really important. Um, and people think about that. The one people think about a little less is passion, like getting really excited about stuff. So, um, i- i- if it's, I mean, like for you, let's say you're into archery and you're just stoked about it and you're telling your kids about archery and you shot a elk and it was the greatest day ever. No one's like, "God, there goes Joe. He's bragging again, just talking about what a great shot he is." It doesn't sound like that because you're showing passion. You're not like, "I'm not the best shooter. This is just awesome. Let me tell you about it." So if you get your kids into things that, that give them that passion, sometimes we use the word flow in psychology, often they talk about flow states or getting in those flow states when you're really engaged in what you're doing and getting feedback, d- is that something you know?

Joe Rogan 21:28 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 21:29 Okay.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Sure, sure.

W. Keith Campbell 21:29 Yeah, so, so you get in those flow states and you get that, that sense of passion, um, when you do that, you're able to engage in a f- in a task, get really good at it, tell people about it, bring them into it, but not be a jerk-

Joe Rogan 21:41 Hm.

W. Keith Campbell 21:41 ... because it's not about you being better than anyone, it's about enjoyment. And then the third piece, this responsibility piece is, is just take responsibility for your damn life. It, you know, not just the g- the thing with narcissism, it's really easy to take responsibility for success, but what do you do when you fail? And how can you learn to fail and then say, "You know, I failed. I screwed up. It's on me." And, and keep going. And so taking responsibility for your failures and learning to be responsible for your own action, again, it's a buffer against narcissism. It's hard to get too big an e- of an ego when you see yourself failing over and over and you have to-

Joe Rogan 22:15 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 22:15 ... admit it, you know? It, it keeps your ego in check.

Joe Rogan 22:19 Well, we were actually talking about, uh, admitting failure before the podcast and I think it's a giant part of, uh, getting people to, to, to, to listen to you. If you, if you don't admit failure, they're gonna go, "Oh, this guy's, he's, he pretends he's never wrong." Or, "This guy pretends he never fucks up." I'm not, and then, and then y- they're looking at you and they're like, "Well, this person, I'm not now not going to take what they say very seriously because I know they're looking at life through a distorted lens."

W. Keith Campbell 22:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Because their lens is not accurate, it's not objective, they're not considering all the different things that other people see in them.

W. Keith Campbell 22:53 Yes, because their lens is colored by their own ego.

Joe Rogan 22:55 Yes.

W. Keith Campbell 22:56 And they can't see past their own ego, so they're just-

Joe Rogan 22:58 And e- ego and narcissism-

W. Keith Campbell 22:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:59 ... are inexorably connected.

W. Keith Campbell 23:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 23:01 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 23:01 So it's like you got, yeah, you got the ego glasses on whenever you get to a certain area, it's this kind of blind spot and then, uh, I l- when, you know, the world's insane, right? And we're all trying to figure out what's real and I just listen to people and when I hear people that screw up and they say they're sorry or they make mistakes, like I can trust that p- person.

Joe Rogan 23:19 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 23:20 When people never make mistakes, I get nervous.

Joe Rogan 23:22 Yeah, you should. (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 23:23 (laughs) Because I, I mean, I go, I go into class and I'm like, "I'm gonna be right 80% of the time in here. You guys google everything I say."

Joe Rogan 23:30 Yes.

W. Keith Campbell 23:30 Because I, I mean, it's hard to be, you can't be, it's, you can't be interesting and right 100% of the time. It's just not possible.

Joe Rogan 23:37 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 23:37 You know?

Joe Rogan 23:37 Especially if you're thinking out loud, right?

W. Keith Campbell 23:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:39 And y- when, uh, the idea that ego and narcissism are connected, y- there, uh, I think there's a benefit to ego in that you value yourself and you value your own success and that will force you to work hard and that will equal, you know, some success in whatever you're trying to achieve, but is there a value in narcissism? Or is it possible to be ambitious and achieve things, but do so in a compassionate and objective way where you're not distorting your own view of yourself, you're not distort- you're not, you're not alienating other people with some, uh, asinine perspective of who you are?

W. Keith Campbell 24:29 I- it's a, it's a very challenging question and I think about this one a lot and I'm gonna give you my short answer and then my longer answer because it's more complicated. The, the short answer is this line I heard from Bob Dylan, but it was attributed to Liam Clancy from the Clancy Brothers, which is, "No fear, no meanness, no envy." I hope I got that right.

Joe Rogan 24:49 Hm.

W. Keith Campbell 24:49 "No fear, no envy, no meanness." Um-... but it's, it's the, and this is about how to live a creative life. And it's, the idea was, you need to be fearless. You need to be bold to change things. That piece of narcissism, which we sometimes call fearless dominance or boldness, this, this sort of extroversion and drive, that will get you into trouble sometimes because you're taking risks. Um, but generally, you have to take those risks to be a, to get successful. You have to take risks. So that boldness seems to be something that's pretty useful for things. Where you get in trouble is the meanness, is being mean to people, that antagonism. Like, I'm gonna start a podcast and I'm gonna, first thing I'm gonna do is take out the competition.

Joe Rogan 25:35 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 25:35 You know, like a lion. You know, like lions-

Joe Rogan 25:37 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 25:37 ... in the, in the, in the, in the savanna. They are in, in whatever forest, they'll wipe out every predator out there. They'll see a, uh, they'll see a g- a hunting dog, they'll just kill them 'cause they're like predators. So that meanness, that piece of narcissism will get you into trouble all the time and it ruins your relationships. Um, and the third piece is insecurity. And sometimes with narcissism that manifests, might manifest as envy. "Oh my God, look how successful that-"

Joe Rogan 26:02 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 26:02 "... you know, that comedian is. He's got that HBO special. That should be mine."

Joe Rogan 26:07 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 26:07 And I, you know, you stew in envy. It's hard to get ahead when you got envy. And then so, so of those three pieces, the boldness piece is, I think, the one that matters. The other piece with success is whatever we do for most of us, our success is interpersonal. We're working in fields. We might be in medicine or in psychology or in comedy or entertainment or, you know, whatever the field is, farming. Um, you have to work ... All those people are your competitors, are also your cooperators, and if they all hate you, they're not gonna wanna work with you anymore. So there's this old saying, like I, I mean, you must know this from entertainment. I don't know this, but there are things like, you know, be nice to people on the way up 'cause you're gonna see them on the way back down.

Joe Rogan 26:52 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 26:52 And stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 26:53 Sure.

W. Keith Campbell 26:53 So it's gotta be something where if you're just kind of an arrogant SOB, people don't want you around and it's gonna hurt you.

Joe Rogan 27:00 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 27:00 Because they just don't, they just, they just don't want you there, so the narcissism is really just messing up your ability to succeed because you don't have any friends.

Joe Rogan 27:07 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 27:08 But if you, if you're willing to take risks and be bold, people will be friends with you 'cause it's kinda fun to be friends with somebody who takes risks and is gutsy.

Joe Rogan 27:15 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 27:16 And-

Joe Rogan 27:16 Some people.

W. Keith Campbell 27:17 (sighs) .

Joe Rogan 27:17 But some people that have that vulnerable narcissism will be upset at you-

W. Keith Campbell 27:22 'Cause, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:23 Yeah, and that, that's a weird one when you see people do well and the other people are actually upset that the other person is doing well because they think that somehow or another it should be-

W. Keith Campbell 27:30 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 27:30 ... them that gets these things.

W. Keith Campbell 27:32 You know, and i- and it's, uh, it's not a small thing. In, in the relationships world, there's this, this term called capitalization. So when something good happens to you, you know, like, "Hey, yeah. I have book come out day." I'm like, "Hey, I got a book come out. It's great." Who do I tell? Well, if I go tell people who are envious, then they're just gonna be mad at me. If I go tell people who are jealous, I'm just gonna make them feel bad.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 27:54 I don't wanna make people feel bad, but I've got a couple of friends who are just, they're not insecure.

Joe Rogan 27:59 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 27:59 And they're like, "Dude, I'm really proud. That's really awesome."

Joe Rogan 28:01 That's a disturbing moment when you tell a friend about some good things that happened like, "Oh, great. Another great thing happened to you." "Oh, awesome."

W. Keith Campbell 28:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:08 "Good for you, Keith."

W. Keith Campbell 28:09 Yeah. Thanks.

Joe Rogan 28:10 "You're, you're out there killing it. Meanwhile, I could barely pay my bills, Keith."

W. Keith Campbell 28:13 I can't ... Just in the basement-

Joe Rogan 28:14 Where is ... Where the f-

W. Keith Campbell 28:14 ... watching Netflix.

Joe Rogan 28:15 Fuck. This, what does that have to do with what I'm saying? Shouldn't you be happy?

W. Keith Campbell 28:19 Yeah, please. I thought we were friends, man.

Joe Rogan 28:21 Ah, some people just don't want other people to do well 'cause it forces them to look at their own achievements or their own life-

W. Keith Campbell 28:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:29 ... and their own relationships, their own ... You know, like some people don't like it when people are involved in relationships. They try to sabotage those relationships. It's weird.

W. Keith Campbell 28:36 Yeah. (laughs) Well, if you, if my, if my narrative were like, "Marriage doesn't work," and then I see my buddy is married, I'm like, "Damn, there goes my narrative." Uh, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:44 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 28:44 So I could either change the story to like, "Keith doesn't work." You know? Or-

Joe Rogan 28:47 It's not gonna work forever, bro.

W. Keith Campbell 28:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:49 One of you is gonna die.

W. Keith Campbell 28:50 Yeah. (laughs) And so-

Joe Rogan 28:52 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 28:53 But that's that vulnerable narcissism piece.

Joe Rogan 28:54 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 28:55 That insecurity, um, y- uh, I always see that Joe Pesci in that movie, Miller's Crossing. Do you remember? Like, h-

Joe Rogan 29:01 I don't remember that movie.

W. Keith Campbell 29:02 Who rememb- ... It's like, "You looking at me? Are you, who are you laughing at?" Was that Miller's Crossing?

Joe Rogan 29:06 No, no, no, no.

W. Keith Campbell 29:06 Oh, this may be a different movie.

Joe Rogan 29:07 That was, wasn't that Goodfellas? Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 29:09 Goodfellas. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Thank you, Jamie, for-

Joe Rogan 29:12 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 29:12 Jay, he's on it. I could see him.

Joe Rogan 29:13 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 29:14 Um, yeah, like that scene though where somebody's so insecure-

Joe Rogan 29:17 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 29:17 ... that a, that a waiter laugh, smiling-

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 29:19 It's like, like what kind of loser lets a smiling waiter put him into a f- tantrum?

Joe Rogan 29:24 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 29:24 But that's that vulnerability. And what you're seeing is it's very easy to exploit in people 'cause if you see where their vulnerability is, you can just poke them.

Joe Rogan 29:33 But it's just fascinating that there's all these different parts of a human being's personality and how a person manages these or doesn't manage these and how they interface with each other. It all plays this huge part in how the rest of the world feels about you and how you do in life and what kind of relationships you have and also-

W. Keith Campbell 29:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:54 ... whether or not you're able to grow and learn because if you're not looking at yourself accurately, you're never gonna grow and learn.

W. Keith Campbell 30:00 I- exactly. The challenge with ego is the message that makes us feel good is often the message that, that doesn't give us the information we need.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 30:09 (laughs) And the message, you know, it's like that Mike Tyson. You know, everyone's got a plan till they get punched in the face.

Joe Rogan 30:14 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 30:15 That pa- that face punch is where, that's the information you need.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 30:18 (laughs) My, my plan sucked. I just got-

Joe Rogan 30:20 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 30:20 ... punched in the face, but, but if you, but what's weird about life is you can build a life where you get a lot of positive feedback and you're not getting the negative feedback. You can build that life for yourself. It's just a very small life.

Joe Rogan 30:33 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 30:34 Because you have to put these walls around you so no one can get in there and say-

Joe Rogan 30:37 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 30:37 ... "You're an idiot." And you, you s-

Joe Rogan 30:39 It's the promise that, like, m- hard moments are the ones you grow from. Like, uh, difficult moments to accept, like losses.

W. Keith Campbell 30:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:47 Like big losses.

W. Keith Campbell 30:48 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Those are where you grow the most because when, when you do fail or you do make mistakes, it forces you to really take an accurate account of w- who you are and what happened and why you had this colossal failure, and that's how you grow.

W. Keith Campbell 31:02 Yes.But it's hard for people to... I mean, you know, lots of people fail and don't make the connection with themselves.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 31:12 They- (laughs) They make-

Joe Rogan 31:12 They blame other people.

W. Keith Campbell 31:13 They blame everyone else.

Joe Rogan 31:14 Yeah. Very dangerous.

W. Keith Campbell 31:15 So it's, it's sometimes is harder to do that than it sounds. And the other thing is, we don't set up the world where people fail all the time.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 31:24 Like, you go to school, you just don't fail all the time anymore.

Joe Rogan 31:27 Well, that's the danger in not failing, right?

W. Keith Campbell 31:29 I, I think so.

Joe Rogan 31:29 Like, with kids, when kids get participation trophies for, you know, "We're not gonna keep score." I remember my daughter had a soccer game when she was three and they were like, "We're not gonna keep score." I'm like, "Why wouldn't you keep score?" 'Cause, well, when the other kids score, then these kids feel bad.

W. Keith Campbell 31:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:43 But y- y- it's good that, first of all, they learn you're gonna be okay if someone scores on you. And you get past that feeling bad. You go, "You know what? I like it when I kick that ball into the net. How do I get better at kicking that ball into the net?"

W. Keith Campbell 31:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:56 Because if it doesn't matter, then y- you never develop this ability to do difficult things and get better at them.

W. Keith Campbell 32:03 Right. And competition is fun 'cause it matters.

Joe Rogan 32:05 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 32:06 You know? If it doesn't matter, it's no fun. It matters, it's fun.

Joe Rogan 32:08 Yeah. If someone kicks that ball past you and it goes in the net-

W. Keith Campbell 32:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:10 ... you're like, "Shit." And everybody goes, "Yes!" And you're like, "Ugh." (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 32:14 (laughs) But, but, you know, you wanna do sports, it's like, you do baseball, you strike out, what? Uh, uh, 2/3 of the time you miss or something? Like, you fail all the time-

Joe Rogan 32:25 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 32:25 ... in, in baseball. Soccer, you just low scoring. I mean, you, you go into athletics, you, you gotta lose all the time. That's just-

Joe Rogan 32:31 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 32:32 ... part of it. And if you're not able to lose, you can never get better.

Joe Rogan 32:35 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 32:36 So if you... Anyway. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:37 But we protect children from it. It's very strange. And this is not something that happened, um, when I was a child or when you were a child.

W. Keith Campbell 32:44 No.

Joe Rogan 32:44 It's fairly recent that-

W. Keith Campbell 32:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:46 ... they started protecting children from the feeling of losses.

W. Keith Campbell 32:49 Yeah. Uh, it's that whole, the safety-ism, all of these different cultural changes. And I-

Joe Rogan 32:56 Helicopter parenting.

W. Keith Campbell 32:57 I... Yeah. I'm a big believer in natural consequences. That's something I think is good for kids. And natural consequences is the term we use, like, if you grab the stove and you get burned, you just go, "I'm not doing that again."

Joe Rogan 33:09 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 33:09 Like, I, you don't n- I don't need to tell my kid, like, "You shouldn't have done that, you idiot." You're like, "I got the memo."

Joe Rogan 33:14 (laughs) Right.

W. Keith Campbell 33:15 And so things like... I mean, I grew up, you know, surfing. You, you go up there and no one c- ocean didn't care about you. You go out there and you know what you're doing, it's great. You don't, it just, it just crushes you.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 33:25 And your ego, y- you just can't have a ego. And, and, and that's why big wave surfers are always kinda chill.

Joe Rogan 33:32 Yeah, I always th- felt that way about ocean towns as well. There's something about being connected to something-

W. Keith Campbell 33:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:36 ... that's so big. Any idea that you're really important kinda goes away when you look at the ocean. You're like, "Wow, look at that." (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 33:44 Yeah. You're like, "Well, if I start drifting, next stop is-"

Joe Rogan 33:46 I'm fucked. (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 33:47 "... you know, Japan," (laughs) you know? And, and, and it's, it's very l- it's very liberating because it's... I mean, it's k- it's kind of like a little awe experience.

Joe Rogan 33:55 Yes. Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 33:55 Sometimes e- you know, those big awe experiences can be good for reducing ego.

Joe Rogan 33:59 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 33:59 And, uh, but any of those natural consequences and failing and losing, it kinda sharpens up who you are. And it's, and it's very liberating after a while.

Joe Rogan 34:07 Well, that's one of the reasons why I've always told, uh, men in particular, uh, young guys that jujitsu's great, it's a great medicine for your ego 'cause you're 100% gonna lose. There's no doubt abou- unless you're some just super enormous person that just has some freak body. Most people get dominated a lot.

W. Keith Campbell 34:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:25 And when you get beaten a lot, you develop this ability to understand your place in the food chain in terms of that. And you also accept losses better. You realize, like, you're gonna be okay. It's just a game. If you lose at a game of checkers, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But you lose at a game of jujitsu, it seems very devastating. But once you lose a bunch of times, your ego gets managed better and it's much healthier for you. You get accustomed to losing.

W. Keith Campbell 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:48 There are many men that don't ever participate in sports or any- ever participate in anything athletic when they're young, anything competitive. They, they get to be adults and they're in this weird stage where they never fully matured.

W. Keith Campbell 35:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:02 They've, they've l- they've never developed this ability to understand the value of healthy competition 'cause there's a real value to it. It's a game that you learn... It's not... Protecting yourself from that feeling of loss is actually dangerous for you. It's almost like a person who washes their hands too much and never gets exposed to germs.

W. Keith Campbell 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Like, you need to develop an understanding of what it feels like to fail.

W. Keith Campbell 35:26 Yeah, sort of a psychological immune system-

Joe Rogan 35:28 Yes.

W. Keith Campbell 35:28 ... to failure in that sense.

Joe Rogan 35:30 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 35:30 I like that. Y- Uh, I mean, I think you're right. I, I, one of my grad students does Brazilian jujitsu-

Joe Rogan 35:37 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 35:37 ... and was telling me about it. And it's like, you get choked out all the time.

Joe Rogan 35:40 All the time. All the time.

W. Keith Campbell 35:40 Right? It's like... And that's your consequence.

Joe Rogan 35:42 Yep.

W. Keith Campbell 35:42 Like, you just get knocked out.

Joe Rogan 35:44 Well, y- y- you luckily, you don't get knocked out. You get choked, and the-

W. Keith Campbell 35:47 And that's-

Joe Rogan 35:47 ... nice thing about that is it doesn't give you brain damage like getting hit does.

W. Keith Campbell 35:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 35:51 So and usually, you tap out before you get choked out, so you don't get any damage from it really. You just get sort of bruised up a little bit. But the, the benefit of it is it's a con- you're doing it constantly and jujitsu people in general are some of the nicest, friendliest people, the easiest to get along with because they have control of their ego. They understand their ego better.

W. Keith Campbell 36:11 So I was gonna ask you that. So how... Is ego... Does it get wiped out in the martial arts over time?

Joe Rogan 36:15 It doesn't totally get-

W. Keith Campbell 36:16 Doesn't always, right?

Joe Rogan 36:17 ... wiped out, especially with dominators, especially with people that are, like, conquerors who wind up winning championships and stuff like that. A lot of them have very, very, very strong egos, sometimes overwhelmingly so. And some of those guys, what's really interesting is when they lose, especially if they lose badly, boy, they, it changes their whole life. Like, they never become the same again. Some men are-

W. Keith Campbell 36:36 Can't come back from it.

Joe Rogan 36:37 Yeah, because, like, physically, maybe they're, they're the same, but psychologically, they're so damaged from having that ego death that they really never recover from it 'cause a lot of their reason for success is they felt like they're the man. "I am the fucking man." And when someone comes along and says, "No, I'm the man," you're like, "Oh, shit-"

W. Keith Campbell 36:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:56 "... he's the man." And then you're intimidated and then you, you don't realize, like, okay, this is like mathematics. This is, this is, these are co- equations. There's all sorts of things going on. You fell short in a number of areas. We must look at it like you're looking at a problem.

W. Keith Campbell 37:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:13 You have to look at it like you're looking at some sort of a mathematical equation. What went wrong? Well, I was lacking conditioning. I was lacking the understanding of these certain positions where I got caught in traps. I didn't know the defense. I need to add all those things to my repertoire. And then I also have to work on my psychology.

W. Keith Campbell 37:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:30 I have to work on my mind because when I did get into a situation where I was vulnerable, I started to panic and then it diminished my ability to, uh, think well-

W. Keith Campbell 37:40 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 37:40 ... under stress 'cause being able to think well under stress-

W. Keith Campbell 37:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:42 ... is also a huge factor. But instead of thinking of it in terms of, like, you're a person, he's a person, that person beat you, like, think of it in terms of, like, math. Like, think of all these different factors that are at play and where were you lacking and what was wrong with your approach. And then you... And then it gives you this... Terrible f- loss gives you a terrible feeling, but it's also a terrible, uh, it's a terrible feeling, but it's an amazing opportunity to grow. And all my...... biggest growth moments in my life have come from colossal failures.

W. Keith Campbell 38:15 So what changes somebody in a fight from looking at it from an ego to, "I'm gonna break this down. It's really not me and you. We're not competitors. It's just these numbers moving around and I gotta figure out what, where my weaknesses are." And you know, like Bruce Lee, like, "I have my kick and this." And break down my... I mean, does c- can some people do that? Can everyone do that? Do you need a coach that-

Joe Rogan 38:36 Some people are special, you know?

W. Keith Campbell 38:37 Do you get a coach that comes in and kind of-

Joe Rogan 38:39 Coaches help.

W. Keith Campbell 38:39 ... works, looks at tapes with you or something?

Joe Rogan 38:41 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 38:41 Or...

Joe Rogan 38:41 Sure, yeah, a lot of guys do that. A lot of guys look at tapes by themselves. A lot of guys look at tapes with coaches. You know, Mike Tyson famously, uh, had a, uh... One of his managers was a historian of boxing. So Mike Tyson would watch old films of, like, the great Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

W. Keith Campbell 39:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:02 And, like, Harry Greb and all these old school boxers. And he'd look at their-

W. Keith Campbell 39:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:07 ... movements and he would adopt some of their, their, their attacks and defense. And, you know, there's, there's definitely benefit to watching yourself and seeing where you screw up. And... But there's also a benefit to having a mental coach. Mike Tyson also had, um, Cus D'Amato, who was his longtime boxing coach who had adopted him when he was 13, was also a hypnotist. And worked with him on the mental aspect of his game. And would literally say to him, "You do not exist. Only the task exists. The task of breaking this man down." And this was imparted in him when he was a small boy, he was for- 13 years old. And also wha- what was imparted was that when he did do this thing, he experienced love and appreciation and adulation at a level that he never had in his life. So his life, he was at this great deficit-

W. Keith Campbell 39:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:00 ... of love. He didn't have-

W. Keith Campbell 40:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:01 ... a lot of love in his family. He lived in a terrible neighborhood. There was no one there for him. So then all of a sudden there's this man who just happens to be one of the greatest boxing coaches of all time, who takes him in, who's also a hypnotist. Who's also a master of psychology in regards to combat sports. And he trains this young man to be one of the greatest of all time.

W. Keith Campbell 40:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:21 And of course the results are unbelievable. But you have a perfect storm of things happening too-

W. Keith Campbell 40:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:26 ... because he's also incredibly physically gifted. So you have... He has incredible speed and power. Which speed and power are two things where like, oof, you really can't do much about power. Like if you're a person who has small bones and you don't hit very hard-

W. Keith Campbell 40:40 This kid.

Joe Rogan 40:41 ... it's, it's not, it's not in the cards for you. So he had all these things going for him, that he had power at a young age. But it was... A lot of it was like having someone who w- understood how to mold him psychologically. And w- a person like that, ego is very important. Like you have... Like he would talk about it. There's a great documentary that Tyson talks about, um, his walk into the ring and how in the beginning he's nervous, he's unsure of himself, but by the time he gets into the ring, he's a god. And you know, he... So i- his ego w- he used that ego.

W. Keith Campbell 41:16 Strategically.

Joe Rogan 41:17 It fueled him. Yeah. Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 41:19 That's cool.

Joe Rogan 41:19 It is interesting 'cause it... But it can also c- create massive problems for you-

W. Keith Campbell 41:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:23 ... as it did for him outside-

W. Keith Campbell 41:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:25 ... of the ring.

W. Keith Campbell 41:26 Well, it sounds... I mean, I don't know the, him or anybo- any of these people, but it almost sounds like he's being somewhat exploited at that age.

Joe Rogan 41:33 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 41:33 And having his... Turning his psyche into a structure to make him a bit of a weapon and probably benefiting other people. I don't know. And yet-

Joe Rogan 41:40 A little bit of benefiting other people, but also greatly benefiting himself.

W. Keith Campbell 41:43 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:44 I mean, he became one of the greatest heavyweight boxers the world has ever known. So there's, there's pros and cons there. But my point was that there is something to the ego in that regard where I think you almost have-

W. Keith Campbell 41:55 To have it.

Joe Rogan 41:56 ... to have it to be Michael Jordan, right, for instance, who's e- who had a tremendous ego.

W. Keith Campbell 41:59 Huge.

Joe Rogan 42:00 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 42:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:01 But also one of the greatest, if not the greatest, basketball player of all-

W. Keith Campbell 42:05 Time.

Joe Rogan 42:06 ... time. But obsessed. Did you ever see the video? Jamie actually played it for me once. There was a, a video where this, uh, guy was talking shit about Michael Jordan after he retired. And so Michael Jordan came back and played him one-on-one and just-

W. Keith Campbell 42:18 (laughs) Just scorched him.

Joe Rogan 42:20 ... scorched him. Scorched him while he's talking shit the whole time. Who was that, Jamie?

W. Keith Campbell 42:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:24 Did you play me that?

Guest 42:25 No. (clears throat) It's happened multiple times though. I mean-

W. Keith Campbell 42:28 (laughs)

Guest 42:28 And in, in the documentary they go over five or six different situations where he's going back over someone that's slighted him in the s- in the tiniest way.

W. Keith Campbell 42:34 Mm-hmm.

Guest 42:35 And just wrecked havoc on him.

Joe Rogan 42:37 Just... Yeah.

Guest 42:37 40 points on him.

Joe Rogan 42:38 Yeah.

Guest 42:38 Call them like... He would act like they don't exist. All sorts of funny stuff.

W. Keith Campbell 42:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:41 Yeah. He was... His ego was substantial. And is, I'm sure. But also the results are substantial.

W. Keith Campbell 42:49 Right. And that's the... And so the question I wonder... And this is really a question because I don't get to study high performance athletes with narcissism work.

Joe Rogan 42:57 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 42:57 You don't get to do it. I mean, you can get-

Joe Rogan 42:58 I would imagine there-

W. Keith Campbell 42:59 You get data from presidents and stuff that you can get from historians, but it... You just don't really have the data. And I wonder... You know, like obviously for Muhammad Ali and stuff and that sort of braggadocio before fights, that if in those combat sports ego is super important to develop... I mean, theoretically it makes sense. You know, one-on-one competition.

Joe Rogan 43:17 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 43:17 It's not about a team. It's... You just have to win.

Joe Rogan 43:21 Up to a point, I would say. What, what I was saying before was that the people that get destroyed, who have these enormous egos, when they get exposed, it takes incredible character to build yourself back up. And some never do. Some get psychologically defeated-

W. Keith Campbell 43:36 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:36 ... and they're never the same again 'cause the, the pain of loss and the pain of being exposed-

W. Keith Campbell 43:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:41 ... as being inferior to your opponent is just too much. But I wonder... Like I... That... It's... That's such a rare example of when it would be beneficial to be narcissistic or beneficial to have an ego-

W. Keith Campbell 43:54 What-

Joe Rogan 43:54 ... a tremendous ego.

W. Keith Campbell 43:55 I mean, it's... But, you know, if you look across the literature, the place it seems to work is individual competitiveness. Because if you're in a team... So imagine... You know, you see this in teams all the time. So the old story is the quarterback gets... Goes in front of the cameras and goes, "Yeah, I won it for the team." And the next time, the front line just lets the, the defense through and the quarterback's dead.

Joe Rogan 44:15 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 44:15 So he goes... Next time he wins, he goes, "Yeah, I just wanna thank my team and God." And then the team supports him. Because in a team sport, you can't be really successful without a team.

Joe Rogan 44:23 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 44:23 Maybe, maybe basketball a little bit, but, like, football and stuff...So, it keeps that ego in check. But with boxing or fight, it's just you.

Joe Rogan 44:31 It is, but it also is a team as well because you need a coach. You, you need someone to train you correctly. And in Tyson's case, when his coach died, when Cus D'Amato died, and then he, his relationship with his coaches afterwards deteriorated to point where he really was just having, like, bucket carriers in, in the ring with him.

W. Keith Campbell 44:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:50 He, his career faded.

W. Keith Campbell 44:51 It, so you need a-

Joe Rogan 44:53 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 44:53 ... back office. Kind of, you need a whole team.

Joe Rogan 44:54 You need someone you respect too. You need someone who's like, "Hey man, you keep dropping your fucking left hand. Stop doing that." You're like, "Okay, okay, okay. Thank you." Like, you need someone who sees your failures and your mistakes and, and checks you on them, and you need to respect that person.

W. Keith Campbell 45:08 So, does Michael Jordan have that person? Who will-

Joe Rogan 45:10 I think Michael Jordan was so hard on himself and so, like, so obsessed with winning. I mean, I think... This is why I wanted to bring him up because I think-

W. Keith Campbell 45:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:20 ... there's psychological issues that these extreme winners have that you don't get to where they are without them. It's like the, where the illness becomes beneficial, right?

W. Keith Campbell 45:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:35 If you're not sadistic, you don't make a good serial killer.

W. Keith Campbell 45:38 Right. Or a good internet troll.

Joe Rogan 45:40 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 45:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:41 But if you're not-

W. Keith Campbell 45:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:42 ... if you're not narcissistic or ego-

W. Keith Campbell 45:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:44 ... you're an egomaniac, I wonder if you ever become a guy like Michael Jordan who's just so dominant.

W. Keith Campbell 45:51 Well, he's an example of somebody who's very egotistical. I mean, that's the... I don't know him, I don't... But that's the, what people say.

Joe Rogan 45:58 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 45:59 He's very competitive, you know.

Joe Rogan 46:01 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 46:01 And it's obviously worked for him. Um, and you see it with all... Uh, so the other option might be that, well, if you're kind of a dick and you're really, really good, people will let you get away with it.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Hmm. What are you gonna say?

Guest 46:12 Uh, that, for Kobe Bryant, they call it the ma, Mamba Mentality.

W. Keith Campbell 46:17 Hmm.

Guest 46:17 Like, he's known for having this mentality where winning at all costs. If you're not with me-

W. Keith Campbell 46:22 Yeah.

Guest 46:22 ... fuck you.

Joe Rogan 46:23 Right.

Guest 46:23 We're go-, I'm gonna win.

Joe Rogan 46:25 Yeah. And also-

Guest 46:26 See you there, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:26 ... one of the Greatest Of All Time.

W. Keith Campbell 46:27 Yeah.

Guest 46:27 For sure, 100%.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Yeah, it's, it's, it's weird.

W. Keith Campbell 46:31 It's-

Joe Rogan 46:31 It's weird, and it can wreck havoc on your personal life because other people-

W. Keith Campbell 46:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:34 ... feel left out or maligned or not appreciated or-

W. Keith Campbell 46:37 Well, I know with Kobe, he got back with his family and was trying to-

Joe Rogan 46:42 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 46:42 ... you know, make that work, and was a pretty committed dad at, you know-

Joe Rogan 46:45 Yeah, he made a correction. He adjusted.

W. Keith Campbell 46:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:48 Yeah, which is also... When you achieve a failure in your personal life, you know, of an, a person who is so dedicated to success, the only way he got that good is when he encountered mistakes or failures, he corrected. So, obviously, he made that same adjustment in his personal life as well.

W. Keith Campbell 47:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:06 'Cause he must have felt, especially that, the, the, you know, public issues that he had-

W. Keith Campbell 47:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:11 ... they must have felt like they were tremendous failures, and then he had to make corrections.

W. Keith Campbell 47:16 So, what you said there is really interesting because that's the question. Does... So, do you look at that and go, "That's a public failure about my marriage."

Joe Rogan 47:24 Yeah, yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 47:25 And, and is the solution to that about me winning by having the winning marriage? Or do you say, "God, it's a public failure about my marriage. I need to be a, a more loving person and just get connected to my family more as an emotional person"?

Joe Rogan 47:39 Yeah, I think that answer is depend- I mean, how you answer that question, I should say, is really dependent upon what i- what's your priority.

W. Keith Campbell 47:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:49 Like, is your priority you, or is your priority you and the people you love? Like, can, can you work that into the equation?

W. Keith Campbell 47:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Or is it just, "Fucked her. I'll get a new wife, you know, who doesn't know me that good?" (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 48:02 Yeah. No, I, I mean, but that's... So it, that's-

Joe Rogan 48:04 Some people do that.

W. Keith Campbell 48:04 No, in narcissism, that's what I'm saying. Like, well, you just got a new wife-

Joe Rogan 48:08 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 48:08 ... how can someone do that? I'm like, "Well, they got a new car." It's the same thing. I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 48:12 A lot of famous celebrity-type people wind up doing that, the exact thing, right?

W. Keith Campbell 48:16 Uh, uh, I said my, my doctoral dissertate-, dissertation was on narcissism and romantic attraction-

Joe Rogan 48:22 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 48:22 ... and it was kind of inspired by Trump because he always had these beautiful-

Joe Rogan 48:25 Really?

W. Keith Campbell 48:25 Oh, yeah. It was great. He always had these beautiful wives, you know?

Joe Rogan 48:28 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 48:29 And, and, uh, I mean, that was back in the day, and he seems like he's settled down now. But, uh, I mean, that was just a thing people did, trophy, trophy spouse.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Well, it seems like to be that guy who has your name on the buildings and has your name on the jet, and you kinda have to have a super-hot wife.

W. Keith Campbell 48:46 Kinda goes, it's kinda part of the package, right?

Joe Rogan 48:48 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 48:48 It's part of the brand.

Joe Rogan 48:49 Seems like it has to be.

W. Keith Campbell 48:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 48:51 Sort of the brand thing, but-

Joe Rogan 48:52 Well, it's, it's also a narcissism thing because you want everyone to see all this great stuff that you have. So, they wanna everybody see this beautiful lady that's beside you and-

W. Keith Campbell 49:00 Totally.

Joe Rogan 49:01 ... see your name on the building. You know?

W. Keith Campbell 49:03 Yeah. And, and again, it kinda works, and why not do it? (laughs) But the problem is the, the other three wives before that one maybe aren't as happy about it and-

Joe Rogan 49:12 Yeah. Yeah, but they shouldn't... And this part is like, that's, that's what, what it is, that's who he is. That's what the game is.

W. Keith Campbell 49:19 Yeah, kinda signed up for it.

Joe Rogan 49:19 And that's the game with many of these, like, high-profile businessmen. The game is, you know, get a hot wife, buy a jet, maybe an island, you know, keep moving. Always show everybody that you have the nicest things. Step out of the Bugatti, you know, you know, all that stuff. It's-

W. Keith Campbell 49:34 Yeah. But that's kinda the classic grandiose narcissism-

Joe Rogan 49:38 Yes.

W. Keith Campbell 49:38 ... pattern. And, and the reason, and that, that life strategy is a successful strategy for a lot of people. I mean, you get status and fame and some money. I mean, you lose a lot of money in those alimony payments. It's not a, (laughs) you know, it's not a great-

Joe Rogan 49:51 It's not clean.

W. Keith Campbell 49:51 It's not clean, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 49:53 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 49:53 But, you know, it works for a lot of people, but it's a, it's a very demanding lifestyle.

Joe Rogan 49:57 But it's also what we talked about earlier. Like, what is success? Like, there's many people that live in a log cabin-

W. Keith Campbell 50:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:04 ... and that have a real simple life, but they're real happy. And then there's people that have, you know, a penthouse in Manhattan-

W. Keith Campbell 50:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:11 ... and they take a helicopter at the airport to fly their private jet to Paris, and they're fucking miserable, and they're on antidepressants, and they're taking pills, and they, you know-

W. Keith Campbell 50:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:21 They're constantly in stress.

W. Keith Campbell 50:22 Yeah, y- y-, if you try to get the... So, the problem with trying to get status, I mean, trying to be happy because you're s-, cooler than other people, like, you have higher social status, it's impossible to win-

Joe Rogan 50:33 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 50:33 ... because there's always somebody better than you.

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yep.

W. Keith Campbell 50:36 And if there isn't now, there will be in five years. Or in five years, no one's gonna give a rat's ass-

Joe Rogan 50:40 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 50:40 ... what you did in the first place 'cause they think, they're like, "Football is for losers."

Joe Rogan 50:44 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 50:44 We got rid of football. Only idiots played football.

Joe Rogan 50:47 Yeah. Well, I wonder, like, when a guy like Jeff Bezos gets to $200 billion.

W. Keith Campbell 50:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:53 It's like-... does he just enjoy working? Maybe he does, maybe he's- enjoys the game of working.

W. Keith Campbell 51:00 E- at that point, it's not for money 'cause you- you-

Joe Rogan 51:02 I don't know, I don't know.

W. Keith Campbell 51:03 ... couldn't spend it.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 51:04 I mean, it would be money as a counter maybe.

Joe Rogan 51:06 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 51:06 As like, a marker. But it wouldn't be like, "Oh, I can go buy another Bugatti." I mean, you could buy them all.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 51:11 You could go buy the Bugatti company-

Joe Rogan 51:13 Yeah, you can buy the Bugatti company and not even notice it.

W. Keith Campbell 51:16 ... and name it Bezos. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:16 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 51:16 Yeah, you wouldn't even notice it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:17 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 51:17 It would just be eaten up in the next stock bump.

Joe Rogan 51:20 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 51:21 I- it'd be curious to talk to. But then he went and got the new wife.

Joe Rogan 51:25 He's got a girlfriend.

W. Keith Campbell 51:26 He's got the girlfriend.

Joe Rogan 51:26 Didn't- didn't marry her.

W. Keith Campbell 51:27 Didn't marry her.

Joe Rogan 51:27 But she's done that kind of hopping around thing.

W. Keith Campbell 51:30 I- she- I don't- I have-

Joe Rogan 51:31 Yeah, she's-

W. Keith Campbell 51:31 ... not kept up with the-

Joe Rogan 51:32 ... been with a bunch of, uh, high-profile fellas.

W. Keith Campbell 51:35 Good. Good.

Joe Rogan 51:35 Yeah. So she's got her own little thing going on.

W. Keith Campbell 51:37 So everyone's happy-

Joe Rogan 51:38 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 51:38 ... and, uh, and, uh, you know.

Joe Rogan 51:41 I don't know, hope he's happy.

W. Keith Campbell 51:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:42 But it's- it's curious, it's like, I- I mean, it's one thing if it's, uh, someone who's like, maybe a writer and they... Like, um, uh, J.K. Rawlings-

W. Keith Campbell 51:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:50 ... who's worth like, a billion dollars, right? Or more. And she's obviously still writing, she loves writing.

W. Keith Campbell 51:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:57 It's not like she made that money just doing business, doing things she doesn't enjoy doing.

W. Keith Campbell 52:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:02 She made that money as a consequence of her art. It makes sense to me that she keeps writing. But I wonder, I've always wondered with guys like that that are businessmen, do you enjoy the business aspect of it? Do you enjoy... Th- is there something about showing up at- showing up at the office and banging out 12 hours a day that's exciting to you?

W. Keith Campbell 52:20 People I know who do it kind of like it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:22 Yeah. It seems like-

W. Keith Campbell 52:22 People I know in business, they kind of- they think it's cool, they go in there-

Joe Rogan 52:25 It's a game.

W. Keith Campbell 52:26 ... it's a game, they got an office-

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 52:27 ... they got a team, they're crushing it.

Joe Rogan 52:29 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 52:29 I mean, it sounds like fun.

Joe Rogan 52:30 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 52:31 I'm crushing it! (laughs) You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:33 Yeah. It's a game.

W. Keith Campbell 52:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:35 It's... And then social media, this is, uh, we kind of touched on it briefly, but it seems to me that if there's anything in this world that feeds narcissism, it would be Instagram.

W. Keith Campbell 52:46 It is, it... I mean, so social media, I- I... So- (laughs) so when I first heard about Facebook, it's probably been 10, 15 y- 12 years, whenever it came out, and I went to one of my student, Laura, and I was like, "This is crazy, we gotta study this. Study narcissism at Facebook, this is crazy."

Joe Rogan 53:02 So 12 years ago, you thought this?

W. Keith Campbell 53:04 Yeah, I mean, at first, you know, I'm like, "This is bigger than Woodstock."

Joe Rogan 53:07 So this was 2007, 2008?

W. Keith Campbell 53:07 2000... I think the paper is like, 2007 or '8, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:10 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 53:10 Um, and- and so we looked at narcissists and we were like, "Wow, God, the people who are narcissistic have more friends on Facebook, they- they spend more time on their picture, they got more glamour shots." You know, you-

Joe Rogan 53:21 Mm.

W. Keith Campbell 53:21 ... kind of see these- that- that- you know, you- it- that people are using social media to kind of put out an image of themselves and get followers. And people have been looking at it since. And with narcissism, you see people who are narcissistic are just more dialed in to social media, they have more followers, more friends, more connections, um, send more selfies. They- the- the kind of thing is just dialed in for narcissism.

Joe Rogan 53:43 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 53:44 And narcissism is the energy- it's one of the energies, one of the big energies that keeps those systems working.

Joe Rogan 53:50 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 53:50 And Instagram (laughs) , people haven't really done a lot of comparison social media work, like, is narcissism higher on Instagram than Twitter versus TikTok? It- you know, because these things keep to be- they change culturally and we don't have that much money to do research. Um, but when I look at them, Instagram seems like the one that's kind of dialed in for narcissists in particular, 'cause it's photographic, it's-

Joe Rogan 54:13 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 54:13 ... you know, it's very good for status seeking.

Joe Rogan 54:15 It's also- it's- it's the easiest to lie because you have filters.

W. Keith Campbell 54:20 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Yeah, and then people pose in front of cars that maybe they rented or not- aren't theirs or...

W. Keith Campbell 54:26 I find the whole thing hilarious.

Joe Rogan 54:27 It's weird.

W. Keith Campbell 54:28 Yeah, you get a hype house.

Joe Rogan 54:29 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 54:29 I mean, this- I guess that's more-

Joe Rogan 54:30 Hype house, as they call it?

W. Keith Campbell 54:31 ... Tik... That's that- in, uh, YouTube.

Joe Rogan 54:32 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 54:32 That's what they call it, my students who study YouTube. They get a hype house down in Malibu, you know, you rent-

Joe Rogan 54:36 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 54:36 ... a house on the beach-

Joe Rogan 54:37 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 54:37 ... with 10 people and live the dream, take a bunch of photos.

Joe Rogan 54:41 Well, there's money in it, that's what's crazy.

W. Keith Campbell 54:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:43 It's like, if we're going by the metric that we used earlier to define su- success-

W. Keith Campbell 54:48 Success.

Joe Rogan 54:48 ... like, what is success? Is it financial success? Because we were- I was reading an article, uh, today, we were actually talking about this last night with Tim when we went to dinner and, uh, we were talking about BOA, which is this big steakhouse in Hollywood that's filled with TikTok stars now. That's- believe it or not-

W. Keith Campbell 55:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:06 ... this is one of the biggest steakhouses in Hollywood and it's like, a known place where TikTok stars-

W. Keith Campbell 55:13 Talk.

Joe Rogan 55:13 ... go and they- they- people take pictures of them and they... But these TikTok stars, here we go with this stupid... Well, is it? 'Cause they're making millions of dollars.

W. Keith Campbell 55:21 Gary did at BOA, I'm not.

Joe Rogan 55:22 So if-

W. Keith Campbell 55:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:24 ... but if they were making million- if you are not making millions of dollars and you're like, "Look, I'm an accountant, I'm a serious person and I make $300,000 a year." And well, "You're doing very well." But this TikTok star made $300,000 a month.

W. Keith Campbell 55:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:37 And no one understands why or how or-

W. Keith Campbell 55:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:40 ... but they're doing it. Are they d- is that dumb? And it- it- as part of what they're doing is hype houses and- and, you know, showing pretty watches and showing-

W. Keith Campbell 55:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:50 ... gold earrings and diamonds and nice cars and all that shit. Like, it seems like- it's like a financial strategy that's very beneficial but it's also based on bullshit and ego. What is this? TikTok and Instagram influencers-

W. Keith Campbell 56:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:03 ... exposed for renting fake private jet set. Oh, there's a set?

W. Keith Campbell 56:07 Oh, that's cool. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:08 Oh my God. A set.

W. Keith Campbell 56:11 See, I don't even-

Joe Rogan 56:11 There's a set.

W. Keith Campbell 56:13 That's nice.

Joe Rogan 56:14 Oh, that is hilarious. Oh my God, that is hilarious.

W. Keith Campbell 56:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:19 They have a fake private jet set. Wow. How weird. Wow. Hold on-

W. Keith Campbell 56:26 But-

Joe Rogan 56:26 ... let me see that- that post. What does it say? It says, uh, "Nah, I just found out LA girl is using studio sets along with her private jets for her Instagram pics. It's crazy that anything you're looking at could be fake, the setting, the clones, the body. I don't know, it just sort of shakes my reality a bit, LOL."

W. Keith Campbell 56:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:43 Well, I'm not shocked.

W. Keith Campbell 56:44 I-

Joe Rogan 56:45 But I am. I am, I am-

W. Keith Campbell 56:47 I am too. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:47 ... and I'm not. (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 56:51 I, I-

Joe Rogan 56:51 It's weird. But that thing of balling, balling out of control, you know? Like showing everybody.

W. Keith Campbell 56:56 I- I- the first time I- I-... figured, I'm... First time this stuff clicked was I was teaching a class, like a seminar and the students, you know, they're never paying attention. They were looking at their phones. I'm, "What are you watching during class?" And they're, they're watching, uh, Khloe, uh, Kardashian over there, Jenner, the Kylie Jenner-

Joe Rogan 57:13 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 57:13 ... like driving her, uh, uh, a Ferrari in LA, like over a curb. I'm like, "Oh." It just hurt to watch 'cause I'm like, "Why is this beautiful car just..."

Joe Rogan 57:23 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 57:24 And I'm like, but they're just watching here and I'm like, "Oh my God, this woman is a genius. She figured this out." Like she was directly beaming TV right to my students.

Joe Rogan 57:34 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 57:34 And she disintermediated the studios and the writers and the scripts and she's like, "I'm just driving my freaking car."

Joe Rogan 57:40 Well, it's amazing-

W. Keith Campbell 57:41 It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 57:42 ... what catches people's eyes and what makes something viral. Like Jamie and I were looking at this video yesterday, this dude who is on a skateboard drinking cranberry juice singing along to Fleetwood Mac.

W. Keith Campbell 57:53 I saw that video.

Joe Rogan 57:55 Yes. Yes.

W. Keith Campbell 57:55 Oh my God, I love that guy. (clapping)

Joe Rogan 57:57 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 57:57 I was like, I was like... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:58 There's something about him.

W. Keith Campbell 58:00 (laughs) I don't know who that-

Joe Rogan 58:00 He's singing along and it, uh, you know, it's just, it's compelling. For whatever reason, it's compelling.

W. Keith Campbell 58:07 I... Maybe when the world is this bad, just a guy just living his best life on a skateboard-

Joe Rogan 58:12 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 58:12 ... is just what, is the hero we need.

Joe Rogan 58:14 Maybe because, like, it's all so, th- the way he's doing it, like, he... there's no showing off there. He's just got cranberry juice, drinking right out of the bottle, rolling around on a skateboard. He's not wearing anything fancy.

W. Keith Campbell 58:27 Just kind of stoked.

Joe Rogan 58:28 Yeah, there he is.

W. Keith Campbell 58:29 Yeah. He's living the dream. He looks... Maybe, maybe he's-

Joe Rogan 58:35 Me-

W. Keith Campbell 58:35 ... sleeping.

Joe Rogan 58:35 Nathan Apodica, the man behind that Fleetwood Mac skateboarding TikTok video. Wow. (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 58:43 I love it.

Joe Rogan 58:45 Uh.

W. Keith Campbell 58:45 Yeah, he's-

Joe Rogan 58:45 So his, uh...

W. Keith Campbell 58:46 ... has dog face 208.

Joe Rogan 58:46 He's got a Twitter too. Yeah, that's him. See, like, when you watch this guy rolling, like look, he's just wearing a sweatshirt. There's nothing crazy about it.

W. Keith Campbell 58:55 So going back to my-

Joe Rogan 58:56 Drinking cranberry juice. (laughs) He's a father from Wyoming just having a good time.

W. Keith Campbell 59:02 Uh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:05 That's, it's really fun.

W. Keith Campbell 59:07 'Cause he's stoked.

Joe Rogan 59:08 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 59:08 And he's passionate.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 59:09 And you're like, "This guy's awesome."

Joe Rogan 59:11 Well, he's, he's really having fun.

W. Keith Campbell 59:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:13 When p- b- when someone's being genuine, when someone's-

W. Keith Campbell 59:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:16 ... really having fun, for whatever reason, that resonates with us.

W. Keith Campbell 59:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 59:19 It doesn't have to be some chick on a fake jet set pretending-

W. Keith Campbell 59:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:24 ... "Here I am with my pouty lips."

W. Keith Campbell 59:26 Often.

Joe Rogan 59:26 No, it's, it's a, just a regular dude. He's a regular dude on a skateboard.

W. Keith Campbell 59:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:31 With a head, he's got a head tattoo. He's got, like, leaves tattoos on the side of his head.

W. Keith Campbell 59:35 (laughs) Oh, yeah. Guys with peach feathers on the back. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:36 Yeah or something. But he's, he's having fun. He's, like, clearly having a good time. Like, that's... We, we recognize authenticity, right?

W. Keith Campbell 59:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:44 We see it in that guy that it's a real smile.

W. Keith Campbell 59:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:47 He really is singing along to those songs.

W. Keith Campbell 59:49 Yeah. But, but authenticity, uh, well, it's an interesting thing (laughs) because how do you find it? 'Cause it's a bit like lightning in a bottle-

Joe Rogan 59:56 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 59:56 ... finding that and then if you brought him into set and said, "Do your thing." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:00 "Be authentic."

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Then it wouldn't be authentic.

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:01 He's like, "It's not hard to do."

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 That's one of the brilliant things about social media is that there's no other people involved, so you get to chan- you get a chance to see these moments. Like, I was trying to explain this to a friend of mine who is a producer. He produces television shows and a bunch of different things and he was, we were talking about doing... He's, he's getting into the podcast world, but he's talked about doing podcasts and he's talked about why is it that podcasts, they, they have this resonance. There's something, they resonate with people in a way that, like, a talk show on television doesn't. And one of the things I was saying is, like, because there's too many people on these television shows.

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 There's too many people staring. There's too many unnatural aspects of it. Like, this is really natural, right?

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 You and me are just sitting at a desk. There's a lot of people watching and listening, but it just happens to be that way.

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:50 Yeah, I'm not thinking about that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 There's no, right, there's no one here.

W. Keith Campbell 1:00:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Here, it's just you and me sitting at a desk. If there was no one else paying any attention, there's no cameras, the only thing weird is the headphones.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 But, and honestly, this is the best way to have a conversation because y- I hear you the same level that I hear me, so it keeps me from talking over you and we're locked into each other, so we don't hear any extraneous noise. Obviously, this is a soundproof room.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 So we don't hear anything outside anyway, but th- that's why it works. The, the reason why it works is because it's just happening, right? There's no, "Cut. Uh-"

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 "Keith, I liked what you said there."

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:25 "Yeah, can we try that again?"

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 "But do you think, do you think you maybe are too happy that Donald Trump's doing well? I mean, in this day and age, I just, I'm a little uncomfortable." So let's try it again.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 But this time what I want you to do is just say, you know, just like a little disdain.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 We have a little disdain, right? We have a little... We're, we're, we're being good people here.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:42 Yeah, we can do that. Just a little sneer.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 And then, okay, try it again.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 And so just, that's how-

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:46 I've done that shoot so many times. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 I bet you have.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:48 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 Right? If you're doing a documentary in particular, right? Oh, yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:51 Or you're being questioned or interviewed about stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:53 Something you wanna use at a thing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Oh, yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:01:55 Those moments are hard, like authentic moments are hard to achieve, you know? And inauthentic moments, right, especially when you're doing it over a long period of time like a podcast, you're gonna have some hiccups and clunky mom-... But those hiccups reassure people that, "Oh, this is like, he's just a person. This is like, just like me and he is just thinking about this in real..." And, you know, and if you're in the middle of something, you go, "Well, ah. Now that, actually, maybe I'm, I might be wrong here." And then y- y- you see, people see you rethink things in real time. It makes sense. Y- you don't ever see that on one of those highly produced television shows. They would cut out the rethink thing. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 And they'd go, "Keith, let's try it again. Y- now that you've rethought it, let's just, can you r- just say it one more time?"

W. Keith Campbell 1:02:37 Make it all slick.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Yes. Yes. Yeah, make it all slick.

W. Keith Campbell 1:02:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 You know.

W. Keith Campbell 1:02:41 I, uh, so what that makes me think of is, uh, this is gonna sound way off topic, but I went to a, uh, a build, a business where they were building, um, building virtual reality systems for, to treat PTSD in troops.

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 Oh.

W. Keith Campbell 1:02:56 So you put on virtual reality glasses and you go back to, like, virtual Iraq or virtual Afghanistan and it's supposed to bring you back to those feelings. And I thought, "Well, I'll try them, see what it's like." Never been there, but the way they did it is they'd show you in a room with a bunch of guys throwing cigarettes around, playing cards, talking, but no drama, no narrative. It was just kind of random stuff.And they said the reason that worked, it seems so much more real than movies or television is that movies everything is, everything feeds into the narrative. So, there's no kind of extraneous stuff. It's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 Hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 1:03:29 ... all narrative-based. We watch a certain way, but when it doesn't, when there's things that don't fit in the narrative, that's just kind of random, people get more engaged in it and it seems more real. S- sort of like in Pulp Fiction where they have those random conversations about cheeseburgers. You know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 Right, right, right.

W. Keith Campbell 1:03:43 That's the best part of the movie. It has nothing to do with the plot. So, it's this kind of random stuff, but it brings people in because it makes it seem real.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 Yeah. It g- it gives you this feeling like you don't know what to expect because weird stuff is happening that you didn't expect.

W. Keith Campbell 1:03:56 Right, in the moment.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Right. Like when... If you watch one of those Law & Order shows or something like that, one of those real predictable television shows. No disrespect-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 ... to Law & Order, but s- there's some cookie-cutter shows where you kinda see it coming along t- and it's-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 ... in some ways for some people, it's satisfying-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 ... to see the bad guy get caught at the end, or maybe there's a little bit of a plot twist that you didn't see and that's a nice surprise. But for the most part, you kinda know what's happening.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 Pr-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:19 It's procedural.

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 But you see a movie like No Country for Old Men where the bad guy-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:23 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 ... gets away at the end and you're like, "What the fuck?" And you-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 ... walk out of there going, "Did I even like that?" Like, I did.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:29 Ask-

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 I loved it, but I was like disturbed.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:31 Who's that a-... That guy still freaks me out. That-

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 That guy is awesome.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:35 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 Who is this again, Jamie?

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:37 Such a great role.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 The guy with the terrible hair?

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:41 Yeah, he s-

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 That guy is fucking-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:42 That scared me. I don't get... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:44 He's, he's fucking fantastic.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:45 Yeah, I don't get haunted by a lot. That, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Oh.

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:47 ... that one movie where I'm like, "Uh, I don't wanna watch this one again."

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 I believe that actor could-

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 ... do that to people. (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 1:04:52 Yeah. (laughs) Like I don't think this is real. Like, you just st- stick with the cows. You just go away. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 Yeah, there's something about him, man. He's just... He's got that... There's people that have that thing, right? Where they can embody whatever it is, whether it's a psychopath or whether it's a, you know, a, you know... Javier Bardem. Bardem. Yeah. Javier. Javier Bardem. That guy-

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 Give me a picture of Javier so I can just take a look at him.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:16 Yeah, that-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 That motherfucker. That motherfucker scares me.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Give me that one right there. Yeah, right there where your cursor's at. Jesus Christ.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:25 But you don't want that guy in your kitchen.

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 He's scary.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:27 He's mad at you.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 Oh, he was just amazing.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:29 But he doesn't come across as just kind of all-out evil. He just seems-

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 No.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:33 ... much more like normal. Like not just normal evil.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Explosive.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:37 Explosive.

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 That's what he seems to me. Like, he's like anything can happen at any moment and you're, you're like nervous that he's gonna just kill you.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:44 Yeah, he's like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:45 "What would you like to eat?" And you're like, "I don't fucking..." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 (laughs)

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:48 You're like, "Fuck! Why did I say tuna fish?"

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Th- those are the scary people, the ones that can just go at any moment.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:54 That, that gave me the creeps, that movie. That's-

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 Great movie.

W. Keith Campbell 1:05:56 Yeah. No, that's a great movie.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 Yeah. And, but the difference is, right, like there's things happening in that film that like keep you on edge. You never get comfortable.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 You never feel like, "Oh, I understand what this movie is."

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:08 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 No. You never get comfortable.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:10 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 And that's the, that's the case with Pulp Fiction as well, and a lot of Tarantino's movies do that. He's very good at that, keeping you like guessing.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 Like, "Where the fuck is he going with this?"

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:20 And you can't really foreclose on, "Oh yeah, another movie, happy ending-"

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 Nope.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:23 "... boom, I'm gonna go get a taco."

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 No.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:25 You know, it's, it's...

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:26 You, you're still... I'm thinking, but still thinking about that guy.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 Yeah. Well, the way the mind works is so interesting. The way the mind interfaces with other people, the way it-

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 There's certain people that, for whatever reason, they just bring out the worst in some folks, right?

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:43 A- absolutely, but in different ways.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:45 You know, some people make people angry, some people just kind of, uh, destabilize things, some people cause drama.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:06:53 You know, people do different things.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 But people... Also, p- some people make you feel... Like some people legitimately can make you a better person. 'Cause when you're around them, you wanna do better, you wanna, you wanna be better, and you can-

W. Keith Campbell 1:07:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 ... you... My point was that y- the opposite is true too. Like, and this is where the nature versus nurture when it comes to narcissism or any other ego problems. I always wonder like if you're in a bad environment, like how much does that shape you as a human being? Like, how much does that change who you are if you're around the wrong kind-

W. Keith Campbell 1:07:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 ... of people? How much d-, how many people are out there that are constantly around bad people and they go, "You know what? That's how you get ahead in this world. You gotta be an asshole and so I'm gonna be an asshole too."

W. Keith Campbell 1:07:39 So, y- I think you're, you're totally right. I mean, the one idea... Sometimes there's this idea we talk about the Michelangelo phenomenon really that you kinda get in relationships with people that are really good for you and they car-

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:07:51 ... they bring out the best part of you.

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 1:07:53 You know? As somebody... You're like, they see you for the best part. They see, you know, they see Keith and they see the best part of Keith and they, and, and like they make me a better person.

Joe Rogan 1:08:01 And you want to be better. Right. Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:02 And I wanna be a better person. And they s- the person, the Keith they see is a lot better than the Keith I see and that makes me better. Other people don't do that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Right.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:12 They're kinda, they're bringing you down, they're giving you the wrong message, and you can either imitate them and fail or when you're trying to succeed, they just pull you down and say, "Do what I'm doing."

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 And sometimes it's little things. Like sometimes it's little people just like little str- little criticisms that people will do when you're talking to them that like keeps you from being comfortable.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:30 Yeah, just little jabs.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:31 Little jabs.

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 Not that big a deal. And they're like, "God, why are you so sensitive?" Like, "Oh, okay." Am I that sensitive? 'Cause y- you're just fucking annoying to be around and I gotta get away from you.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 And those little tiny things they... I remember I had a girlfriend once that was really negative, like really negative. She, everything was... Could just... Complained about everything. And then, uh, I moved to California and I met this girl who was really nice and I remember thinking the difference in the way I felt around her was like-

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:57 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 ... uh, now I'm having fun.

W. Keith Campbell 1:08:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:58 Like, oh, we could just have laughs together. Like, you, you could have... Like, you don't have to be around someone that's always wearing you down. But if you are, it changes who you are too because your reality-... like, is, is, is... You're interfacing with this negativity all the time and it can shape your personality. It can shape how you interface with the world.

W. Keith Campbell 1:09:19 Oh, completely. I mean, that's... I, I... That happens all the time. You get in this... I mean, uh, this is... goes back in the old self-research, like, how do you bo- raise your self-esteem? Well, get around people who like you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:29 Does that help somewhat?

W. Keith Campbell 1:09:30 Yeah, 'cause a lot of times-

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:09:31 ... your, your self-esteem is determined by the people around you and people that are anxious all the time bringing you down. 'Cause if you get success... Like you're saying, that you get successful, they look bad.

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 Yeah.

W. Keith Campbell 1:09:40 So they're always jabbing you, whether insecure or whatever, um... Yeah. That's bad. The other thing is trauma, just those... trauma in life screws people up. It just doesn't-

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 Mm-hmm.

W. Keith Campbell 1:09:53 ... seem to be very specific. So you get a lot of young trau- childhood traumas that can lead to narcissism. It can lead to other things as well. It doesn't seem to be specific, but it makes your personality a little more rigid and maybe, you know, maybe a little more fragile. Um, so it's not a good thing, but it's not really specific in what kind of bad thing it is.

Joe Rogan 1:10:14 Trauma also creates personality in some people. Like some people, trauma shapes their personality. Their recovery from trauma builds character. And some