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Joe Rogan Experience #1545 - W. Keith Campbell

Social psychologist W. Keith Campbell is a recognized expert on narcissism and its influence on society at large. His latest book, The New Science of Narcissism, explores the origins of this character trait, why its presence has grown to almost epidemic proportions, and how all of us are at least a little narcissistic.

W. Keith CampbellguestJoe RoganhostGuestguest
Oct 6, 20202h 45mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:42

    Studio banter, then a testing analogy: why screening can create false positives

    1. WC

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Keith.

    3. WC

      Hello, Joe.

    4. JR

      What's happening, man? Thanks for coming.

    5. WC

      Oh, thanks for having me. This is great. Great to be in the new studio.

    6. JR

      It's polarizing. Some like it, some do not. It, uh, it has a weird effect on people.

    7. WC

      When-

    8. JR

      I didn't th- I never thought it was gonna be a big deal. L- I just thought people would go, "Oh, this place looks weird," and that would be the end of it.

    9. WC

      Well, it's kind of a interdimensional hyper tube. What, do you... The Red Pill?

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. WC

      What's the name?

    12. JR

      Um, some people call it the Red Pill. I don't know. It's just the, the, the studio for now.

    13. WC

      It's cool.

    14. JR

      Thank you.

    15. WC

      It feels good to be here. Feels-

    16. JR

      Thanks, man.

    17. WC

      ... good. Nice studio.

    18. JR

      Feels good to have you here.

    19. WC

      Thank you.

    20. JR

      We tested you out.

    21. WC

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      What were you saying about testing? That it's not g-... Unless you- you're sick, it's not good to test often?

    23. WC

      Y- yeah. Well, and no. I mean, as a psychologist, you know, when you're doing psychological testing-

    24. JR

      Right.

    25. WC

      ... if I wanted to see if somebody has a mental disorder, I just don't go screen a bunch of people. I wait for somebody to show up in a hospital that's got troubles.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. WC

      Because if I go gi- give the screen to a bunch of people, I'm gonna find a bunch of people who test as mentally ill but aren't. They're not doing anything wrong. Um, they just have some symptoms, but they might not have all the trouble that brings them to a hospital.

    28. JR

      Or maybe they do, but they just never m- make their way to a hospital?

    29. WC

      Well, or they're, it's, it's working out for them. So, p- part of the...

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  2. 1:42 – 5:13

    When is it a disorder? Success, impairment, and the Trump thought experiment

    1. JR

      Mm. But w- how do, how does one define whether or not it's impairing? You're like-

    2. WC

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      ... you could argue that the President of the United States has some psychological disorders. But clearly, he, it isn't, hasn't impaired him from being successful unless you check his taxes.

    4. WC

      (laughs) This is the, this is a debate I've had, uh, or discussion I've had a lot. And the question is, so is somebody like Donald Trump, um, if somebody says he has a disorder and you say, "Well, is billionaire President of the United States who doesn't pay a lot of taxes, guy sounds like he's kinda killing it to me."

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. WC

      How is that a disorder? You know, he's... And somebody else says, "Well, imagine how good he'd be if he was, didn't have any disorders and was totally sane. Imagine if he was doing that but had Pence's personality. He'd really be killing it."

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. WC

      And somebody says, "But Pence doesn't do it 'cause he's not wired that way. You gotta have Trump's personality to do that kinda craziness." So, it's, it's a debate.

    9. JR

      Well, not only that, I don't even know what personality Pence has.

    10. WC

      (laughs) That's the point. I mean, he has-

    11. JR

      I have no idea what's in there.

    12. WC

      He comes across as somebody with a, a very balanced personality. Not very extroverted, but probably very conscientious. You know-

    13. JR

      Mm.

    14. WC

      ... very probably moral and upright so he come across as somebody with rectitude, you know?

    15. JR

      Mm.

    16. WC

      So, in, in personality terms, we might say he's somebody who's conscientious and probably agreeable, but not really extroverted. Calm.

    17. JR

      Is there debate on whether someone should be treated or even someone do, should be discussed as someone who has mental health issues or personality issues even, if they're doing well? 'Cause like the, the way you're describing it, you're saying like, well, someone's successful. They're doing well. Why bother-

    18. WC

      Right.

    19. JR

      ... looking at these things?

    20. WC

      To be treated, you need to have clinically significant impairment to get the diagnosis. So, if there's no impairment, it's really not, you're not supposed to treat somebody. At that point, you're just coaching them. You know?

    21. JR

      But what if someone is like super successful but they're like, "You know what? I've been talked to lately and, uh, people sat me down and said, 'Hey, man. You're a, you're a narcissist.'"

    22. WC

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      "There's something wrong with you.'"

    24. WC

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      And then they come to see you and the- and you start talking to them and say, "Well, you have all this good stuff going for you."

    26. WC

      Right.

    27. JR

      You would still treat them, right?

    28. WC

      Yeah. So, i- if... (sighs) So, if somebody comes in, though, w- this person's coming in is probably somebody who's very successful in a lot of things and has problems probably in their relationships, like, they're, you know, "My, my marriage is screwed up. My kids hate me. I, I..."

    29. JR

      Let's say the President 'cause-

    30. WC

      Right, yeah. Right.

  3. 5:13 – 6:54

    Is narcissism useful? Competition, rule-breaking, and tradeoffs in ‘success’ metrics

    1. JR

      The, it's an interesting descriptor, like the best person you can be or the best person in the world. L- if you did that, maybe you wouldn't be successful. Like, that's part of the issue too, right? Like-

    2. WC

      W- that's the challenge is that when you look at people... L- let's say you look at, at income.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. WC

      If you, men who are kinda jerks make more money. People who are less agreeable make more money. They're more antagonistic. They're a little more competitive. They're willing to break the rules a little bit. So, there's this balance in life, whereas if you're too nice of a person, you don't, you're not able to break enough things to get ahead. But if you're going around breaking things, you become a tyrant-

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. WC

      ... and no one likes you and everyone wants to take you down.

    7. JR

      Well, there, there's also like, what, by what metric are we measuring success? Are we measuring success only in financial success or are we measuring success in like happiness with your friends and your family and, you know, like, a balanced life with your loved ones?

    8. WC

      Yeah, meaning. And so when we talk about-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. WC

      ... that, where you're gonna see... If somebody like, you know, Trump or somebody very narcissistic who's very achievement, uh, status-focused, they're gonna succeed at those metrics. Status being number one. Wealth is a pretty good proxy for status, so wealth and status. Where you typically fall apart...... is in those interpersonal realms.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. WC

      You just don't have the compassion, you don't have the caring, you don't give time for people.

    13. JR

      Empathy.

    14. WC

      You don't have a lot of empathy, and so those, those relationships are usually what suffer. And so with people who are really status-focused, the, the thing that costs is their relationships, 'cause they're, they're pursuing fame or status or whatever. And that's fine, you know? W- Everybody makes those choices. The problem is if you're doing it all the time and you're manipulating people and using people, it, it can be more of a problem.

  4. 6:54 – 8:29

    Evolutionary roots of narcissism: short-term mating, status, and why big societies enable it

    1. JR

      W- Is there any evolutionary benefit to narcissism? Like, where does that come from? 'Cause does, does it exist in the animal kingdom?

    2. WC

      Yes, um, so if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, which some people have, narcissism seems to be really good for short-term mating success.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. WC

      Like if I go to a bar in downtown Austin and I give narcissism questionnaires to all the dudes there, the higher scorers are gonna get the most numbers over time.

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. WC

      That's usually what happens, so narcissism's usually good for short-term mating and it's good for status-seeking, power-seeking. So it's probably beneficial in those contexts and it's, uh, and this is where it gets a little weird because in stable environments, like in research in hunter-gatherer societies, in stable environments if somebody's, you know, cheating on other people's wives or stealing stuff or steals extra food, people don't like that. They'll just kill them. I mean, they'll just go have a hunting accident. If you're in, if you're kind of the dick in the, in the, uh, hunter-gatherer society, they'll take you out and you'll, just won't come back-

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. WC

      ... 'cause they just don't want you.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. WC

      But, um, so narcissism gets, uh, gets weeded out in those places, but when things get unstable and things are un- you know, uncertain, people who are narcissistic can get a lot of resources and do really well, so sometimes they do well which keeps it around. And obviously in big societies you can become powerful enough to hire henchmen and hire a PR agent and you can kinda build your own status and, and do a lot more than you can in a hunter-gatherer group where everyone knows you.

  5. 8:29 – 11:38

    Defining narcissism: grandiose vs vulnerable traits, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

    1. JR

      What is narcissism when you define it? Like what is the, what is your definition of narcissism?

    2. WC

      So it gets a little more complicated. When we're talking like this, I'm talking about grandiose narcissism and that's, uh, a basic trait.

    3. JR

      There's more than one kind of narcissism, right?

    4. WC

      Yes. Yeah, it's... I'll step back. So when we talk about narcissism, um, in the, in the psychological literature, we're talking about three different things that are related. The first of these is narcissistic personality and this is, uh, a trait and meaning that people go from a high level to a low level. It's not a clinical disorder. And in this trait when it's grandiose, we say grandiose narcissism, it's this combination of sense of entitlement and a sense of superiority but also you get extroversion and drive and ambition, call it agentic extroversion. So somebody who is driven and extroverted but also a little bit self-centered and, and antagonistic and entitled. So that combination of traits, um, kind of a prima donna or, you know, overconfident or cocky or whatever you want to call it, that's what we talk about is, is grandiose narcissism. And that's just a, like I said, normal trait. Um, there's another form of narcissism which we don't talk about as much in the normal world but that's vulnerable narcissism and these are the folks that are, kinda think they're really important, think they should be getting a lot of attention, think they're the smartest people in the room but no one really looks at them, no one pays attention to them.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. WC

      So they get insecure, they get depressed, their self-esteem drops. They think, you know, "Why aren't I getting the attention I deserve? I'm kind of a legend."

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      Um, you know, it's a legend in their own minds.

    9. JR

      Hmm.

    10. WC

      You know, so you're talking about these, like, basement narcissists-

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. WC

      ... you know, living in their bom- mom's basement thinking how great they are and fantasizing about it, and those more vulnerable folks you don't see at the bars as much 'cause they're in the basement but you see them clinically because they're depressed and they go see a clinician and say, "Help me out. I'm anxious." So those are the two normal forms of narcissism that are traits, and then there's this clinical form or psychiatric form called narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. And that personality form of nar- personality disorder form of narcissism is an extreme form of narcissism. You have a high level of it, you know, like Trump or, you know, a lot of celebrities or, you know, academics, um, but you also, to make it a clinical disorder, you have to have that impairment we're talking about, so it has to be clinically significant impairment and that's usually the narcissism is so bad your, your marriage, your relationships are falling apart. Your work life could be falling apart, so sometimes you find narcissistic, uh, really successful people in, in offices who are narcissists but they, they kinda destroy the office culture.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. WC

      They're, they're just bad workers, um, and so you can destroy that. You can make really poor decisions because your ego is so big you just, you know, overinvest in something and, and it just doesn't work out for you so you start dysregulating your, your financial decisions, so you can make kind of those kind of mistakes. The big ones are usually interpersonal, but when you have that kind of impairment it can be a disorder and then you get treated for it.

  6. 11:38 – 13:18

    Social media as a narcissism amplifier: followers, shadow-banning stories, and online delusion spirals

    1. JR

      The vulnerable personality disorder is fascinating.

    2. WC

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      That's a fascinating one 'cause l- you, you see a lot of them on social media in particular, right? You see people that b- feel like they should be getting more attention than they are and don't understand why and, and feel upset by that or shortchanged.

    4. WC

      S- social media is such a strange beast because, um, it, it, it gives everybody the chance to have a camera and have the audience of a billion people, so I could go on there and get a, you know, billion audience, but I have to earn that (laughs) and so you have lots of people that go, "Look, I can have a billion people in my audience, but I don't have those people. Why aren't they there? Who's screwing me over and not giving my... Where are my followers?"

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. WC

      You know, "Why don't I get followers?"

    7. JR

      I saw a guy the other day talking about being shadow-banned and he had a thousand friends.

    8. WC

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      And I'm like, "Are you sure?"

    10. WC

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      "Are you sure you're shadow-banned? Are you sure people are just not interested in what you're saying?" What kind of-

    12. WC

      Yeah. Maybe you're just not that interesting.

    13. JR

      But that's the weirdest thing to ever say, like, I'm being shadow-banned.

    14. WC

      (laughs) Yeah, 'cause like-

    15. JR

      Like, do you have evidence of this? Like, what is, what is happening here?

    16. WC

      Well, you're kind of a outlaw, outlaw.

    17. JR

      Th- this is not saying that shadow-banning's not real but, like, people are using that as an excuse for why they're not getting the d- the attention that they deserve.

    18. WC

      Right. I would be the next Joe Rogan if it weren't for those dastardly shadow-banners taking me down.

    19. JR

      Yeah, holding you back.

    20. WC

      Holding me back.

    21. JR

      They know that they can't silence me.

    22. WC

      They can't, yeah. They, that if I got out there, I would change the world, but these guys are holding me back.

    23. JR

      Yeah. They-

    24. WC

      And you can see how that turns into, like, a delusional system-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WC

      ... if you get, you know, with schizo- more schizophrenia where there's a whole world of people out there trying to hold me down.

    27. JR

      Yeah. I wanna get to that too.

    28. WC

      (laughs)

  7. 13:18 – 16:35

    Grandiosity across conditions: narcissism vs schizophrenia vs mania, and the limits of biomarkers

    1. JR

      I wanted to ask you if schizophrenia... We might as well get to it right now.

    2. WC

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      Is there a connection between schizophrenia and narcissism? Because many people who are schizophrenic have these grandiose ideas-

    4. WC

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... of who they are or the, who they should be, or where they, they fit in that are these r- ridiculously distorted perceptions of reality.

    6. WC

      Yeah. I, uh, it's a... So grandiosity you can see with narcissism, you know, with the, you know, "I have this fantasy about how great I am," this illusion, but it's usually within the scope of reality. So if I'm talking to somebody narcissistic, they're like, "I'm a 10. I'm pretty awesome." You're like, "Not really, man. You're just not."

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      "You're okay but, like, maybe go back to the gym, you know?" But it's usually not, it's not a, it's not crazy.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. WC

      Um, I was working in a, in a hospital with a woman who, who was a, a patient who said that she worked... She was the tooth fairy and she worked for Reagan as the tooth fairy. I thought, "Well, that's a grandiose delusion." You know, uh, Reagan wasn't president, but he was still helping her behind the scenes. That's a grandiose delusion, but you wouldn't call that narcissistic because she wasn't really... her personality wasn't, wasn't really narcissistic, she was more schizophrenic in her presentation, kind of flat affect, um, a little bit strange, odd or unusual, um, uh, anhedonia, sort of lack of feeling and stuff, but those weird delusions. So you can have those grandiose delusions, but it's not quite the same as narcissism. It seems to be working a little differently. And the other place you see them is mania with, like, bipolar disorder. People get really manic and they get these manic phases and they're like, "I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna build this. I'm gonna take over this. My record's gonna be the best." And, um, and that mania can look like narcissism too, and those are probably more closely linked.

    11. JR

      Hmm. Um, w- the, the psychological disorders that we're aware of, the ones like narcissism, the ones like schizophrenia, like, do we know what's happening in the mind that causes a distortion of reality? Is it, is it, is it ego protecting you from the truth? Is it, uh, a chemical imbalance? Is it a series of things that all coincide? Like, when you, when you have someone who's both a narcissist and-

    12. WC

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      ... possibly schizophrenic.

    14. WC

      With narcissism, it's very hard to detect anything that's sort of clearly biological, like a, a... And, and this is true for all personality really. It's, we... People have been looking at this last five years pretty hard for sort of biomarkers or neural structures. Uh, you don't really see them very clearly. You do with schizophrenia. There's some. Um-

    15. JR

      What is it with schizophrenia?

    16. WC

      And I'm sayi- I was gonna say it's not my area and I don't want-

    17. JR

      Okay.

    18. WC

      I, it's... I say... Jamie, if I say anything wrong, just check me and call me out-

    19. JR

      All right.

    20. WC

      ... because I don't wanna screw up anything.

    21. JR

      He's the best one-handed Googler on earth.

    22. WC

      Yeah, please do that. (laughs)

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. WC

      You know, because there's that, you know, there's the old stuff about, you know, bl- um, kind of plaque in the brain and things-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WC

      ... like with Alzheimer's you see some missing, uh, neural structure, but that's just out of my area.

    27. JR

      I understand.

    28. WC

      Um, but with personality, you generally don't see it in there. You just can't find it so far. Um, and when you look at genetics, you, you know what's in the genes, but there's no single genes. It's like a-

    29. JR

      Hmm.

    30. WC

      ... swarms of genes that we don't really understand.

  8. 16:35 – 22:19

    Nature, nurture, and parenting: heritability, ‘non-shared environment,’ and the CPR framework

    1. JR

      So it isn't that... So if your father is a narcissist, are you more or less likely to be a narcissist?

    2. WC

      More.

    3. JR

      More. But what have you learned from your father? You're like, "My God, my father's ruined his life." Like, many alcoholics-

    4. WC

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... have children that won't touch liquor, and I've, I've known quite a few of them.

    6. WC

      Yeah. Yeah. So in the, in the, in the clinical literature, they talk about that as, as sort of that identify- you, you sort of identify with them or you do the opposite of the father.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. WC

      So if you have the alcoholic father, like you said, and you, you become a teetotaler, or your father's a narcissist and you become really nice.

    9. JR

      You know-

    10. WC

      We don't really see that. What you tend to see... I mean, not saying it doesn't happen 'cause I know it happens, but what you tend to see in the literature with these big family studies is that traits like narcissism and all personality and really all mental disorders, they, they tend to follow family lines, so they're heritable. Um, but it's not really clear how that happens.

    11. JR

      So whether it's nurture or nature.

    12. WC

      Right. I mean, it's, it's in there, but we don't know exactly what the genes are. And when they start to look at the nurture question with a lot of personality, what you find is about... A- and there's... When they break these down into heredity care- coefficients, they don't mean exactly what they sound, but generally you find it's about 50%, 60% heritable, you're born with it, probably genetic, and maybe 10% is parenting, and maybe the other, you know, 30%, 40% is something in the environment that's just not really clear what it is.

    13. JR

      The environment? Really?

    14. WC

      Yeah, just random environment. So that's why, you know, you have kids and you have, you, you have two... I have two daughters. They're very different people. Part of that's genetics, obviously. They're very different and all, but it's also their environment. I might have been a similar parent to both of them, but they're, they have different friends, they grew up in a little different time, a little different-

    15. JR

      Hmm.

    16. WC

      ... culture, and all those forces affect you in ways you don't really understand.

    17. JR

      Hmm.

    18. WC

      So a lot of what happens to us is this non-shared environment we just can't really explain. Parenting is pretty small.

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. WC

      Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Um, what we say about parenting is that it, it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it matters.So-

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. WC

      ... (laughs) so I have, I mean, I have two daughters and, and the idea that I could change them into the, one into the other through my parenting skills, you know, I could take my one daughter who loves to dance and I could turn her into the one that loves, you know, math, and I could take the math one and turn her into a... Nah, I couldn't do that in a million years.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. WC

      They're just different people.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. WC

      No way. So I can't really shape my kids' personality very well. I mean, parents just can't really do that. But you matter a lot, you know, you put food on the table. You, you pr- you know, a safe environment, you're not threatening the kids, you're not... You know, there's a lot you do as a parent that matters, but you, you can't really fine-tune your kids' personalities very well. I mean, I don't even try. It just, it-

    27. JR

      But what, what can you do if you think one of your children has narcissistic personality disorder or is, you know, in e- s- there's a spectrum of narcissism, right?

    28. WC

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    29. JR

      Somewhere in there, you're like, "There's something here I have to-"

    30. WC

      Yeah.

  9. 22:19 – 36:11

    Failure as ego medicine: competition, participation trophies, natural consequences, and jiu-jitsu

    1. JR

      Well, we were actually talking about, uh, admitting failure before the podcast and I think it's a giant part of, uh, getting people to, to, to, to listen to you. If you, if you don't admit failure, they're gonna go, "Oh, this guy's, he's, he pretends he's never wrong." Or, "This guy pretends he never fucks up." I'm not, and then, and then y- they're looking at you and they're like, "Well, this person, I'm not now not going to take what they say very seriously because I know they're looking at life through a distorted lens."

    2. WC

      Right.

    3. JR

      Because their lens is not accurate, it's not objective, they're not considering all the different things that other people see in them.

    4. WC

      Yes, because their lens is colored by their own ego.

    5. JR

      Yes.

    6. WC

      And they can't see past their own ego, so they're just-

    7. JR

      And e- ego and narcissism-

    8. WC

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      ... are inexorably connected.

    10. WC

      Yes.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. WC

      So it's like you got, yeah, you got the ego glasses on whenever you get to a certain area, it's this kind of blind spot and then, uh, I l- when, you know, the world's insane, right? And we're all trying to figure out what's real and I just listen to people and when I hear people that screw up and they say they're sorry or they make mistakes, like I can trust that p- person.

    13. JR

      Right.

    14. WC

      When people never make mistakes, I get nervous.

    15. JR

      Yeah, you should. (laughs)

    16. WC

      (laughs) Because I, I mean, I go, I go into class and I'm like, "I'm gonna be right 80% of the time in here. You guys google everything I say."

    17. JR

      Yes.

    18. WC

      Because I, I mean, it's hard to be, you can't be, it's, you can't be interesting and right 100% of the time. It's just not possible.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. WC

      You know?

    21. JR

      Especially if you're thinking out loud, right?

    22. WC

      Right.

    23. JR

      And y- when, uh, the idea that ego and narcissism are connected, y- there, uh, I think there's a benefit to ego in that you value yourself and you value your own success and that will force you to work hard and that will equal, you know, some success in whatever you're trying to achieve, but is there a value in narcissism? Or is it possible to be ambitious and achieve things, but do so in a compassionate and objective way where you're not distorting your own view of yourself, you're not distort- you're not, you're not alienating other people with some, uh, asinine perspective of who you are?

    24. WC

      I- it's a, it's a very challenging question and I think about this one a lot and I'm gonna give you my short answer and then my longer answer because it's more complicated. The, the short answer is this line I heard from Bob Dylan, but it was attributed to Liam Clancy from the Clancy Brothers, which is, "No fear, no meanness, no envy." I hope I got that right.

    25. JR

      Hm.

    26. WC

      "No fear, no envy, no meanness." Um-... but it's, it's the, and this is about how to live a creative life. And it's, the idea was, you need to be fearless. You need to be bold to change things. That piece of narcissism, which we sometimes call fearless dominance or boldness, this, this sort of extroversion and drive, that will get you into trouble sometimes because you're taking risks. Um, but generally, you have to take those risks to be a, to get successful. You have to take risks. So that boldness seems to be something that's pretty useful for things. Where you get in trouble is the meanness, is being mean to people, that antagonism. Like, I'm gonna start a podcast and I'm gonna, first thing I'm gonna do is take out the competition.

    27. JR

      Hmm.

    28. WC

      You know, like a lion. You know, like lions-

    29. JR

      Yeah.

    30. WC

      ... in the, in the, in the, in the savanna. They are in, in whatever forest, they'll wipe out every predator out there. They'll see a, uh, they'll see a g- a hunting dog, they'll just kill them 'cause they're like predators. So that meanness, that piece of narcissism will get you into trouble all the time and it ruins your relationships. Um, and the third piece is insecurity. And sometimes with narcissism that manifests, might manifest as envy. "Oh my God, look how successful that-"

  10. 36:11 – 48:16

    Elite winners and the ‘productive pathology’: Tyson, Jordan, Kobe, and ego’s upside/downside

    1. WC

      So I was gonna ask you that. So how... Is ego... Does it get wiped out in the martial arts over time?

    2. JR

      It doesn't totally get-

    3. WC

      Doesn't always, right?

    4. JR

      ... wiped out, especially with dominators, especially with people that are, like, conquerors who wind up winning championships and stuff like that. A lot of them have very, very, very strong egos, sometimes overwhelmingly so. And some of those guys, what's really interesting is when they lose, especially if they lose badly, boy, they, it changes their whole life. Like, they never become the same again. Some men are-

    5. WC

      Can't come back from it.

    6. JR

      Yeah, because, like, physically, maybe they're, they're the same, but psychologically, they're so damaged from having that ego death that they really never recover from it 'cause a lot of their reason for success is they felt like they're the man. "I am the fucking man." And when someone comes along and says, "No, I'm the man," you're like, "Oh, shit-"

    7. WC

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      "... he's the man." And then you're intimidated and then you, you don't realize, like, okay, this is like mathematics. This is, this is, these are co- equations. There's all sorts of things going on. You fell short in a number of areas. We must look at it like you're looking at a problem.

    9. WC

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      You have to look at it like you're looking at some sort of a mathematical equation. What went wrong? Well, I was lacking conditioning. I was lacking the understanding of these certain positions where I got caught in traps. I didn't know the defense. I need to add all those things to my repertoire. And then I also have to work on my psychology.

    11. WC

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      I have to work on my mind because when I did get into a situation where I was vulnerable, I started to panic and then it diminished my ability to, uh, think well-

    13. WC

      Interesting.

    14. JR

      ... under stress 'cause being able to think well under stress-

    15. WC

      Right.

    16. JR

      ... is also a huge factor. But instead of thinking of it in terms of, like, you're a person, he's a person, that person beat you, like, think of it in terms of, like, math. Like, think of all these different factors that are at play and where were you lacking and what was wrong with your approach. And then you... And then it gives you this... Terrible f- loss gives you a terrible feeling, but it's also a terrible, uh, it's a terrible feeling, but it's an amazing opportunity to grow. And all my...... biggest growth moments in my life have come from colossal failures.

    17. WC

      So what changes somebody in a fight from looking at it from an ego to, "I'm gonna break this down. It's really not me and you. We're not competitors. It's just these numbers moving around and I gotta figure out what, where my weaknesses are." And you know, like Bruce Lee, like, "I have my kick and this." And break down my... I mean, does c- can some people do that? Can everyone do that? Do you need a coach that-

    18. JR

      Some people are special, you know?

    19. WC

      Do you get a coach that comes in and kind of-

    20. JR

      Coaches help.

    21. WC

      ... works, looks at tapes with you or something?

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. WC

      Or...

    24. JR

      Sure, yeah, a lot of guys do that. A lot of guys look at tapes by themselves. A lot of guys look at tapes with coaches. You know, Mike Tyson famously, uh, had a, uh... One of his managers was a historian of boxing. So Mike Tyson would watch old films of, like, the great Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

    25. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      And, like, Harry Greb and all these old school boxers. And he'd look at their-

    27. WC

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      ... movements and he would adopt some of their, their, their attacks and defense. And, you know, there's, there's definitely benefit to watching yourself and seeing where you screw up. And... But there's also a benefit to having a mental coach. Mike Tyson also had, um, Cus D'Amato, who was his longtime boxing coach who had adopted him when he was 13, was also a hypnotist. And worked with him on the mental aspect of his game. And would literally say to him, "You do not exist. Only the task exists. The task of breaking this man down." And this was imparted in him when he was a small boy, he was for- 13 years old. And also wha- what was imparted was that when he did do this thing, he experienced love and appreciation and adulation at a level that he never had in his life. So his life, he was at this great deficit-

    29. WC

      (laughs)

    30. JR

      ... of love. He didn't have-

  11. 48:16 – 57:24

    Status branding and modern influence: trophy spouses, Bezos questions, and Instagram/TikTok fakery

    1. WC

      Uh, uh, I said my, my doctoral dissertate-, dissertation was on narcissism and romantic attraction-

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. WC

      ... and it was kind of inspired by Trump because he always had these beautiful-

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. WC

      Oh, yeah. It was great. He always had these beautiful wives, you know?

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. WC

      And, and, uh, I mean, that was back in the day, and he seems like he's settled down now. But, uh, I mean, that was just a thing people did, trophy, trophy spouse.

    8. JR

      Well, it seems like to be that guy who has your name on the buildings and has your name on the jet, and you kinda have to have a super-hot wife.

    9. WC

      Kinda goes, it's kinda part of the package, right?

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. WC

      It's part of the brand.

    12. JR

      Seems like it has to be.

    13. WC

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. WC

      Sort of the brand thing, but-

    16. JR

      Well, it's, it's also a narcissism thing because you want everyone to see all this great stuff that you have. So, they wanna everybody see this beautiful lady that's beside you and-

    17. WC

      Totally.

    18. JR

      ... see your name on the building. You know?

    19. WC

      Yeah. And, and again, it kinda works, and why not do it? (laughs) But the problem is the, the other three wives before that one maybe aren't as happy about it and-

    20. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, but they shouldn't... And this part is like, that's, that's what, what it is, that's who he is. That's what the game is.

    21. WC

      Yeah, kinda signed up for it.

    22. JR

      And that's the game with many of these, like, high-profile businessmen. The game is, you know, get a hot wife, buy a jet, maybe an island, you know, keep moving. Always show everybody that you have the nicest things. Step out of the Bugatti, you know, you know, all that stuff. It's-

    23. WC

      Yeah. But that's kinda the classic grandiose narcissism-

    24. JR

      Yes.

    25. WC

      ... pattern. And, and the reason, and that, that life strategy is a successful strategy for a lot of people. I mean, you get status and fame and some money. I mean, you lose a lot of money in those alimony payments. It's not a, (laughs) you know, it's not a great-

    26. JR

      It's not clean.

    27. WC

      It's not clean, but, uh-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. WC

      But, you know, it works for a lot of people, but it's a, it's a very demanding lifestyle.

    30. JR

      But it's also what we talked about earlier. Like, what is success? Like, there's many people that live in a log cabin-

  12. 57:24 – 1:06:36

    Authenticity vs production: why podcasts resonate, plus VR/PTSD realism and narrative ‘noise’

    1. WC

      And I'm like, but they're just watching here and I'm like, "Oh my God, this woman is a genius. She figured this out." Like she was directly beaming TV right to my students.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. WC

      And she disintermediated the studios and the writers and the scripts and she's like, "I'm just driving my freaking car."

    4. JR

      Well, it's amazing-

    5. WC

      It's incredible.

    6. JR

      ... what catches people's eyes and what makes something viral. Like Jamie and I were looking at this video yesterday, this dude who is on a skateboard drinking cranberry juice singing along to Fleetwood Mac.

    7. WC

      I saw that video.

    8. JR

      Yes. Yes.

    9. WC

      Oh my God, I love that guy. (clapping)

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. WC

      I was like, I was like... (laughs)

    12. JR

      There's something about him.

    13. WC

      (laughs) I don't know who that-

    14. JR

      He's singing along and it, uh, you know, it's just, it's compelling. For whatever reason, it's compelling.

    15. WC

      I... Maybe when the world is this bad, just a guy just living his best life on a skateboard-

    16. JR

      Yeah.

    17. WC

      ... is just what, is the hero we need.

    18. JR

      Maybe because, like, it's all so, th- the way he's doing it, like, he... there's no showing off there. He's just got cranberry juice, drinking right out of the bottle, rolling around on a skateboard. He's not wearing anything fancy.

    19. WC

      Just kind of stoked.

    20. JR

      Yeah, there he is.

    21. WC

      Yeah. He's living the dream. He looks... Maybe, maybe he's-

    22. JR

      Me-

    23. WC

      ... sleeping.

    24. JR

      Nathan Apodica, the man behind that Fleetwood Mac skateboarding TikTok video. Wow. (laughs)

    25. WC

      I love it.

    26. JR

      Uh.

    27. WC

      Yeah, he's-

    28. JR

      So his, uh...

    29. WC

      ... has dog face 208.

    30. JR

      He's got a Twitter too. Yeah, that's him. See, like, when you watch this guy rolling, like look, he's just wearing a sweatshirt. There's nothing crazy about it.

  13. 1:06:36 – 1:11:28

    Relationships and environment: ‘Michelangelo phenomenon,’ negativity, trauma, and post-traumatic growth

    1. JR

      There's certain people that, for whatever reason, they just bring out the worst in some folks, right?

    2. WC

      A- absolutely, but in different ways.

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. WC

      You know, some people make people angry, some people just kind of, uh, destabilize things, some people cause drama.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. WC

      You know, people do different things.

    7. JR

      But people... Also, p- some people make you feel... Like some people legitimately can make you a better person. 'Cause when you're around them, you wanna do better, you wanna, you wanna be better, and you can-

    8. WC

      Yes.

    9. JR

      ... you... My point was that y- the opposite is true too. Like, and this is where the nature versus nurture when it comes to narcissism or any other ego problems. I always wonder like if you're in a bad environment, like how much does that shape you as a human being? Like, how much does that change who you are if you're around the wrong kind-

    10. WC

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... of people? How much d-, how many people are out there that are constantly around bad people and they go, "You know what? That's how you get ahead in this world. You gotta be an asshole and so I'm gonna be an asshole too."

    12. WC

      So, y- I think you're, you're totally right. I mean, the one idea... Sometimes there's this idea we talk about the Michelangelo phenomenon really that you kinda get in relationships with people that are really good for you and they car-

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. WC

      ... they bring out the best part of you.

    15. JR

      Right.

    16. WC

      You know? As somebody... You're like, they see you for the best part. They see, you know, they see Keith and they see the best part of Keith and they, and, and like they make me a better person.

    17. JR

      And you want to be better. Right. Yeah.

    18. WC

      And I wanna be a better person. And they s- the person, the Keith they see is a lot better than the Keith I see and that makes me better. Other people don't do that. (laughs)

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. WC

      They're kinda, they're bringing you down, they're giving you the wrong message, and you can either imitate them and fail or when you're trying to succeed, they just pull you down and say, "Do what I'm doing."

    21. JR

      And sometimes it's little things. Like sometimes it's little people just like little str- little criticisms that people will do when you're talking to them that like keeps you from being comfortable.

    22. WC

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      Yeah, just little jabs.

    24. WC

      Little jabs.

    25. JR

      Not that big a deal. And they're like, "God, why are you so sensitive?" Like, "Oh, okay." Am I that sensitive? 'Cause y- you're just fucking annoying to be around and I gotta get away from you.

    26. WC

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      And those little tiny things they... I remember I had a girlfriend once that was really negative, like really negative. She, everything was... Could just... Complained about everything. And then, uh, I moved to California and I met this girl who was really nice and I remember thinking the difference in the way I felt around her was like-

    28. WC

      Oh.

    29. JR

      ... uh, now I'm having fun.

    30. WC

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:45:55

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