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Joe Rogan Experience #1545 - W. Keith Campbell

Social psychologist W. Keith Campbell is a recognized expert on narcissism and its influence on society at large. His latest book, The New Science of Narcissism, explores the origins of this character trait, why its presence has grown to almost epidemic proportions, and how all of us are at least a little narcissistic.

W. Keith CampbellguestJoe RoganhostGuestguest
Oct 6, 20202h 45mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:46

    Testing, false positives, and when traits become “disorders”

    1. WC

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Keith.

    3. WC

      Hello, Joe.

    4. JR

      What's happening, man? Thanks for coming.

    5. WC

      Oh, thanks for having me. This is great. Great to be in the new studio.

    6. JR

      It's polarizing. Some like it, some do not. It, uh, it has a weird effect on people.

    7. WC

      When-

    8. JR

      I didn't th- I never thought it was gonna be a big deal. L- I just thought people would go, "Oh, this place looks weird," and that would be the end of it.

    9. WC

      Well, it's kind of a interdimensional hyper tube. What, do you... The Red Pill?

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. WC

      What's the name?

    12. JR

      Um, some people call it the Red Pill. I don't know. It's just the, the, the studio for now.

    13. WC

      It's cool.

    14. JR

      Thank you.

    15. WC

      It feels good to be here. Feels-

    16. JR

      Thanks, man.

    17. WC

      ... good. Nice studio.

    18. JR

      Feels good to have you here.

    19. WC

      Thank you.

    20. JR

      We tested you out.

    21. WC

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      What were you saying about testing? That it's not g-... Unless you- you're sick, it's not good to test often?

    23. WC

      Y- yeah. Well, and no. I mean, as a psychologist, you know, when you're doing psychological testing-

    24. JR

      Right.

    25. WC

      ... if I wanted to see if somebody has a mental disorder, I just don't go screen a bunch of people. I wait for somebody to show up in a hospital that's got troubles.

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. WC

      Because if I go gi- give the screen to a bunch of people, I'm gonna find a bunch of people who test as mentally ill but aren't. They're not doing anything wrong. Um, they just have some symptoms, but they might not have all the trouble that brings them to a hospital.

    28. JR

      Or maybe they do, but they just never m- make their way to a hospital?

    29. WC

      Well, or they're, it's, it's working out for them. So, p- part of the...

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  2. 1:46 – 6:54

    Success vs impairment: Trump, personality debates, and what “doing well” means

    1. JR

      ... you could argue that the President of the United States has some psychological disorders. But clearly, he, it isn't, hasn't impaired him from being successful unless you check his taxes.

    2. WC

      (laughs) This is the, this is a debate I've had, uh, or discussion I've had a lot. And the question is, so is somebody like Donald Trump, um, if somebody says he has a disorder and you say, "Well, is billionaire President of the United States who doesn't pay a lot of taxes, guy sounds like he's kinda killing it to me."

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. WC

      How is that a disorder? You know, he's... And somebody else says, "Well, imagine how good he'd be if he was, didn't have any disorders and was totally sane. Imagine if he was doing that but had Pence's personality. He'd really be killing it."

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. WC

      And somebody says, "But Pence doesn't do it 'cause he's not wired that way. You gotta have Trump's personality to do that kinda craziness." So, it's, it's a debate.

    7. JR

      Well, not only that, I don't even know what personality Pence has.

    8. WC

      (laughs) That's the point. I mean, he has-

    9. JR

      I have no idea what's in there.

    10. WC

      He comes across as somebody with a, a very balanced personality. Not very extroverted, but probably very conscientious. You know-

    11. JR

      Mm.

    12. WC

      ... very probably moral and upright so he come across as somebody with rectitude, you know?

    13. JR

      Mm.

    14. WC

      So, in, in personality terms, we might say he's somebody who's conscientious and probably agreeable, but not really extroverted. Calm.

    15. JR

      Is there debate on whether someone should be treated or even someone do, should be discussed as someone who has mental health issues or personality issues even, if they're doing well? 'Cause like the, the way you're describing it, you're saying like, well, someone's successful. They're doing well. Why bother-

    16. WC

      Right.

    17. JR

      ... looking at these things?

    18. WC

      To be treated, you need to have clinically significant impairment to get the diagnosis. So, if there's no impairment, it's really not, you're not supposed to treat somebody. At that point, you're just coaching them. You know?

    19. JR

      But what if someone is like super successful but they're like, "You know what? I've been talked to lately and, uh, people sat me down and said, 'Hey, man. You're a, you're a narcissist.'"

    20. WC

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      "There's something wrong with you.'"

    22. WC

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      And then they come to see you and the- and you start talking to them and say, "Well, you have all this good stuff going for you."

    24. WC

      Right.

    25. JR

      You would still treat them, right?

    26. WC

      Yeah. So, i- if... (sighs) So, if somebody comes in, though, w- this person's coming in is probably somebody who's very successful in a lot of things and has problems probably in their relationships, like, they're, you know, "My, my marriage is screwed up. My kids hate me. I, I..."

    27. JR

      Let's say the President 'cause-

    28. WC

      Right, yeah. Right.

    29. JR

      ... what if he listens to this podcast? And he's like, "You know-"

    30. WC

      Wait, wait, wait, wait.

  3. 6:54 – 8:29

    Evolutionary roots: why narcissism persists (status, mating, and unstable environments)

    1. JR

      W- Is there any evolutionary benefit to narcissism? Like, where does that come from? 'Cause does, does it exist in the animal kingdom?

    2. WC

      Yes, um, so if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, which some people have, narcissism seems to be really good for short-term mating success.

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. WC

      Like if I go to a bar in downtown Austin and I give narcissism questionnaires to all the dudes there, the higher scorers are gonna get the most numbers over time.

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. WC

      That's usually what happens, so narcissism's usually good for short-term mating and it's good for status-seeking, power-seeking. So it's probably beneficial in those contexts and it's, uh, and this is where it gets a little weird because in stable environments, like in research in hunter-gatherer societies, in stable environments if somebody's, you know, cheating on other people's wives or stealing stuff or steals extra food, people don't like that. They'll just kill them. I mean, they'll just go have a hunting accident. If you're in, if you're kind of the dick in the, in the, uh, hunter-gatherer society, they'll take you out and you'll, just won't come back-

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. WC

      ... 'cause they just don't want you.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. WC

      But, um, so narcissism gets, uh, gets weeded out in those places, but when things get unstable and things are un- you know, uncertain, people who are narcissistic can get a lot of resources and do really well, so sometimes they do well which keeps it around. And obviously in big societies you can become powerful enough to hire henchmen and hire a PR agent and you can kinda build your own status and, and do a lot more than you can in a hunter-gatherer group where everyone knows you.

  4. 8:29 – 11:38

    Defining narcissism: grandiose vs vulnerable vs Narcissistic Personality Disorder

    1. JR

      What is narcissism when you define it? Like what is the, what is your definition of narcissism?

    2. WC

      So it gets a little more complicated. When we're talking like this, I'm talking about grandiose narcissism and that's, uh, a basic trait.

    3. JR

      There's more than one kind of narcissism, right?

    4. WC

      Yes. Yeah, it's... I'll step back. So when we talk about narcissism, um, in the, in the psychological literature, we're talking about three different things that are related. The first of these is narcissistic personality and this is, uh, a trait and meaning that people go from a high level to a low level. It's not a clinical disorder. And in this trait when it's grandiose, we say grandiose narcissism, it's this combination of sense of entitlement and a sense of superiority but also you get extroversion and drive and ambition, call it agentic extroversion. So somebody who is driven and extroverted but also a little bit self-centered and, and antagonistic and entitled. So that combination of traits, um, kind of a prima donna or, you know, overconfident or cocky or whatever you want to call it, that's what we talk about is, is grandiose narcissism. And that's just a, like I said, normal trait. Um, there's another form of narcissism which we don't talk about as much in the normal world but that's vulnerable narcissism and these are the folks that are, kinda think they're really important, think they should be getting a lot of attention, think they're the smartest people in the room but no one really looks at them, no one pays attention to them.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. WC

      So they get insecure, they get depressed, their self-esteem drops. They think, you know, "Why aren't I getting the attention I deserve? I'm kind of a legend."

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      Um, you know, it's a legend in their own minds.

    9. JR

      Hmm.

    10. WC

      You know, so you're talking about these, like, basement narcissists-

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. WC

      ... you know, living in their bom- mom's basement thinking how great they are and fantasizing about it, and those more vulnerable folks you don't see at the bars as much 'cause they're in the basement but you see them clinically because they're depressed and they go see a clinician and say, "Help me out. I'm anxious." So those are the two normal forms of narcissism that are traits, and then there's this clinical form or psychiatric form called narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. And that personality form of nar- personality disorder form of narcissism is an extreme form of narcissism. You have a high level of it, you know, like Trump or, you know, a lot of celebrities or, you know, academics, um, but you also, to make it a clinical disorder, you have to have that impairment we're talking about, so it has to be clinically significant impairment and that's usually the narcissism is so bad your, your marriage, your relationships are falling apart. Your work life could be falling apart, so sometimes you find narcissistic, uh, really successful people in, in offices who are narcissists but they, they kinda destroy the office culture.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. WC

      They're, they're just bad workers, um, and so you can destroy that. You can make really poor decisions because your ego is so big you just, you know, overinvest in something and, and it just doesn't work out for you so you start dysregulating your, your financial decisions, so you can make kind of those kind of mistakes. The big ones are usually interpersonal, but when you have that kind of impairment it can be a disorder and then you get treated for it.

  5. 11:38 – 13:18

    Social media, shadow-banning stories, and the “audience of a billion” problem

    1. JR

      The vulnerable personality disorder is fascinating.

    2. WC

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      That's a fascinating one 'cause l- you, you see a lot of them on social media in particular, right? You see people that b- feel like they should be getting more attention than they are and don't understand why and, and feel upset by that or shortchanged.

    4. WC

      S- social media is such a strange beast because, um, it, it, it gives everybody the chance to have a camera and have the audience of a billion people, so I could go on there and get a, you know, billion audience, but I have to earn that (laughs) and so you have lots of people that go, "Look, I can have a billion people in my audience, but I don't have those people. Why aren't they there? Who's screwing me over and not giving my... Where are my followers?"

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. WC

      You know, "Why don't I get followers?"

    7. JR

      I saw a guy the other day talking about being shadow-banned and he had a thousand friends.

    8. WC

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      And I'm like, "Are you sure?"

    10. WC

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      "Are you sure you're shadow-banned? Are you sure people are just not interested in what you're saying?" What kind of-

    12. WC

      Yeah. Maybe you're just not that interesting.

    13. JR

      But that's the weirdest thing to ever say, like, I'm being shadow-banned.

    14. WC

      (laughs) Yeah, 'cause like-

    15. JR

      Like, do you have evidence of this? Like, what is, what is happening here?

    16. WC

      Well, you're kind of a outlaw, outlaw.

    17. JR

      Th- this is not saying that shadow-banning's not real but, like, people are using that as an excuse for why they're not getting the d- the attention that they deserve.

    18. WC

      Right. I would be the next Joe Rogan if it weren't for those dastardly shadow-banners taking me down.

    19. JR

      Yeah, holding you back.

    20. WC

      Holding me back.

    21. JR

      They know that they can't silence me.

    22. WC

      They can't, yeah. They, that if I got out there, I would change the world, but these guys are holding me back.

    23. JR

      Yeah. They-

    24. WC

      And you can see how that turns into, like, a delusional system-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WC

      ... if you get, you know, with schizo- more schizophrenia where there's a whole world of people out there trying to hold me down.

    27. JR

      Yeah. I wanna get to that too.

    28. WC

      (laughs)

  6. 13:18 – 16:35

    Grandiosity across conditions: narcissism vs schizophrenia vs mania

    1. JR

      I wanted to ask you if schizophrenia... We might as well get to it right now.

    2. WC

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      Is there a connection between schizophrenia and narcissism? Because many people who are schizophrenic have these grandiose ideas-

    4. WC

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... of who they are or the, who they should be, or where they, they fit in that are these r- ridiculously distorted perceptions of reality.

    6. WC

      Yeah. I, uh, it's a... So grandiosity you can see with narcissism, you know, with the, you know, "I have this fantasy about how great I am," this illusion, but it's usually within the scope of reality. So if I'm talking to somebody narcissistic, they're like, "I'm a 10. I'm pretty awesome." You're like, "Not really, man. You're just not."

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. WC

      "You're okay but, like, maybe go back to the gym, you know?" But it's usually not, it's not a, it's not crazy.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. WC

      Um, I was working in a, in a hospital with a woman who, who was a, a patient who said that she worked... She was the tooth fairy and she worked for Reagan as the tooth fairy. I thought, "Well, that's a grandiose delusion." You know, uh, Reagan wasn't president, but he was still helping her behind the scenes. That's a grandiose delusion, but you wouldn't call that narcissistic because she wasn't really... her personality wasn't, wasn't really narcissistic, she was more schizophrenic in her presentation, kind of flat affect, um, a little bit strange, odd or unusual, um, uh, anhedonia, sort of lack of feeling and stuff, but those weird delusions. So you can have those grandiose delusions, but it's not quite the same as narcissism. It seems to be working a little differently. And the other place you see them is mania with, like, bipolar disorder. People get really manic and they get these manic phases and they're like, "I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna build this. I'm gonna take over this. My record's gonna be the best." And, um, and that mania can look like narcissism too, and those are probably more closely linked.

    11. JR

      Hmm. Um, w- the, the psychological disorders that we're aware of, the ones like narcissism, the ones like schizophrenia, like, do we know what's happening in the mind that causes a distortion of reality? Is it, is it, is it ego protecting you from the truth? Is it, uh, a chemical imbalance? Is it a series of things that all coincide? Like, when you, when you have someone who's both a narcissist and-

    12. WC

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      ... possibly schizophrenic.

    14. WC

      With narcissism, it's very hard to detect anything that's sort of clearly biological, like a, a... And, and this is true for all personality really. It's, we... People have been looking at this last five years pretty hard for sort of biomarkers or neural structures. Uh, you don't really see them very clearly. You do with schizophrenia. There's some. Um-

    15. JR

      What is it with schizophrenia?

    16. WC

      And I'm sayi- I was gonna say it's not my area and I don't want-

    17. JR

      Okay.

    18. WC

      I, it's... I say... Jamie, if I say anything wrong, just check me and call me out-

    19. JR

      All right.

    20. WC

      ... because I don't wanna screw up anything.

    21. JR

      He's the best one-handed Googler on earth.

    22. WC

      Yeah, please do that. (laughs)

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. WC

      You know, because there's that, you know, there's the old stuff about, you know, bl- um, kind of plaque in the brain and things-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. WC

      ... like with Alzheimer's you see some missing, uh, neural structure, but that's just out of my area.

    27. JR

      I understand.

    28. WC

      Um, but with personality, you generally don't see it in there. You just can't find it so far. Um, and when you look at genetics, you, you know what's in the genes, but there's no single genes. It's like a-

    29. JR

      Hmm.

    30. WC

      ... swarms of genes that we don't really understand.

  7. 16:35 – 30:20

    Nature, nurture, and parenting limits: heritability, environment, and the CPR mnemonic

    1. JR

      So it isn't that... So if your father is a narcissist, are you more or less likely to be a narcissist?

    2. WC

      More.

    3. JR

      More. But what have you learned from your father? You're like, "My God, my father's ruined his life." Like, many alcoholics-

    4. WC

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... have children that won't touch liquor, and I've, I've known quite a few of them.

    6. WC

      Yeah. Yeah. So in the, in the, in the clinical literature, they talk about that as, as sort of that identify- you, you sort of identify with them or you do the opposite of the father.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. WC

      So if you have the alcoholic father, like you said, and you, you become a teetotaler, or your father's a narcissist and you become really nice.

    9. JR

      You know-

    10. WC

      We don't really see that. What you tend to see... I mean, not saying it doesn't happen 'cause I know it happens, but what you tend to see in the literature with these big family studies is that traits like narcissism and all personality and really all mental disorders, they, they tend to follow family lines, so they're heritable. Um, but it's not really clear how that happens.

    11. JR

      So whether it's nurture or nature.

    12. WC

      Right. I mean, it's, it's in there, but we don't know exactly what the genes are. And when they start to look at the nurture question with a lot of personality, what you find is about... A- and there's... When they break these down into heredity care- coefficients, they don't mean exactly what they sound, but generally you find it's about 50%, 60% heritable, you're born with it, probably genetic, and maybe 10% is parenting, and maybe the other, you know, 30%, 40% is something in the environment that's just not really clear what it is.

    13. JR

      The environment? Really?

    14. WC

      Yeah, just random environment. So that's why, you know, you have kids and you have, you, you have two... I have two daughters. They're very different people. Part of that's genetics, obviously. They're very different and all, but it's also their environment. I might have been a similar parent to both of them, but they're, they have different friends, they grew up in a little different time, a little different-

    15. JR

      Hmm.

    16. WC

      ... culture, and all those forces affect you in ways you don't really understand.

    17. JR

      Hmm.

    18. WC

      So a lot of what happens to us is this non-shared environment we just can't really explain. Parenting is pretty small.

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. WC

      Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Um, what we say about parenting is that it, it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it matters.So-

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. WC

      ... (laughs) so I have, I mean, I have two daughters and, and the idea that I could change them into the, one into the other through my parenting skills, you know, I could take my one daughter who loves to dance and I could turn her into the one that loves, you know, math, and I could take the math one and turn her into a... Nah, I couldn't do that in a million years.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. WC

      They're just different people.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. WC

      No way. So I can't really shape my kids' personality very well. I mean, parents just can't really do that. But you matter a lot, you know, you put food on the table. You, you pr- you know, a safe environment, you're not threatening the kids, you're not... You know, there's a lot you do as a parent that matters, but you, you can't really fine-tune your kids' personalities very well. I mean, I don't even try. It just, it-

    27. JR

      But what, what can you do if you think one of your children has narcissistic personality disorder or is, you know, in e- s- there's a spectrum of narcissism, right?

    28. WC

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    29. JR

      Somewhere in there, you're like, "There's something here I have to-"

    30. WC

      Yeah.

  8. 30:20 – 36:11

    Failure as ego medicine: competition, natural consequences, ocean awe, and jiu-jitsu

    1. WC

      ... punched in the face, but, but if you, but what's weird about life is you can build a life where you get a lot of positive feedback and you're not getting the negative feedback. You can build that life for yourself. It's just a very small life.

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. WC

      Because you have to put these walls around you so no one can get in there and say-

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. WC

      ... "You're an idiot." And you, you s-

    6. JR

      It's the promise that, like, m- hard moments are the ones you grow from. Like, uh, difficult moments to accept, like losses.

    7. WC

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      Like big losses.

    9. WC

      Oh, yeah.

    10. JR

      Those are where you grow the most because when, when you do fail or you do make mistakes, it forces you to really take an accurate account of w- who you are and what happened and why you had this colossal failure, and that's how you grow.

    11. WC

      Yes.But it's hard for people to... I mean, you know, lots of people fail and don't make the connection with themselves.

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. WC

      They- (laughs) They make-

    14. JR

      They blame other people.

    15. WC

      They blame everyone else.

    16. JR

      Yeah. Very dangerous.

    17. WC

      So it's, it's sometimes is harder to do that than it sounds. And the other thing is, we don't set up the world where people fail all the time.

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. WC

      Like, you go to school, you just don't fail all the time anymore.

    20. JR

      Well, that's the danger in not failing, right?

    21. WC

      I, I think so.

    22. JR

      Like, with kids, when kids get participation trophies for, you know, "We're not gonna keep score." I remember my daughter had a soccer game when she was three and they were like, "We're not gonna keep score." I'm like, "Why wouldn't you keep score?" 'Cause, well, when the other kids score, then these kids feel bad.

    23. WC

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      But y- y- it's good that, first of all, they learn you're gonna be okay if someone scores on you. And you get past that feeling bad. You go, "You know what? I like it when I kick that ball into the net. How do I get better at kicking that ball into the net?"

    25. WC

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      Because if it doesn't matter, then y- you never develop this ability to do difficult things and get better at them.

    27. WC

      Right. And competition is fun 'cause it matters.

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. WC

      You know? If it doesn't matter, it's no fun. It matters, it's fun.

    30. JR

      Yeah. If someone kicks that ball past you and it goes in the net-

  9. 36:11 – 52:35

    Elite performance and ego: Tyson, Jordan, Kobe, and the ‘useful illness’ idea

    1. WC

      So I was gonna ask you that. So how... Is ego... Does it get wiped out in the martial arts over time?

    2. JR

      It doesn't totally get-

    3. WC

      Doesn't always, right?

    4. JR

      ... wiped out, especially with dominators, especially with people that are, like, conquerors who wind up winning championships and stuff like that. A lot of them have very, very, very strong egos, sometimes overwhelmingly so. And some of those guys, what's really interesting is when they lose, especially if they lose badly, boy, they, it changes their whole life. Like, they never become the same again. Some men are-

    5. WC

      Can't come back from it.

    6. JR

      Yeah, because, like, physically, maybe they're, they're the same, but psychologically, they're so damaged from having that ego death that they really never recover from it 'cause a lot of their reason for success is they felt like they're the man. "I am the fucking man." And when someone comes along and says, "No, I'm the man," you're like, "Oh, shit-"

    7. WC

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      "... he's the man." And then you're intimidated and then you, you don't realize, like, okay, this is like mathematics. This is, this is, these are co- equations. There's all sorts of things going on. You fell short in a number of areas. We must look at it like you're looking at a problem.

    9. WC

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      You have to look at it like you're looking at some sort of a mathematical equation. What went wrong? Well, I was lacking conditioning. I was lacking the understanding of these certain positions where I got caught in traps. I didn't know the defense. I need to add all those things to my repertoire. And then I also have to work on my psychology.

    11. WC

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      I have to work on my mind because when I did get into a situation where I was vulnerable, I started to panic and then it diminished my ability to, uh, think well-

    13. WC

      Interesting.

    14. JR

      ... under stress 'cause being able to think well under stress-

    15. WC

      Right.

    16. JR

      ... is also a huge factor. But instead of thinking of it in terms of, like, you're a person, he's a person, that person beat you, like, think of it in terms of, like, math. Like, think of all these different factors that are at play and where were you lacking and what was wrong with your approach. And then you... And then it gives you this... Terrible f- loss gives you a terrible feeling, but it's also a terrible, uh, it's a terrible feeling, but it's an amazing opportunity to grow. And all my...... biggest growth moments in my life have come from colossal failures.

    17. WC

      So what changes somebody in a fight from looking at it from an ego to, "I'm gonna break this down. It's really not me and you. We're not competitors. It's just these numbers moving around and I gotta figure out what, where my weaknesses are." And you know, like Bruce Lee, like, "I have my kick and this." And break down my... I mean, does c- can some people do that? Can everyone do that? Do you need a coach that-

    18. JR

      Some people are special, you know?

    19. WC

      Do you get a coach that comes in and kind of-

    20. JR

      Coaches help.

    21. WC

      ... works, looks at tapes with you or something?

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. WC

      Or...

    24. JR

      Sure, yeah, a lot of guys do that. A lot of guys look at tapes by themselves. A lot of guys look at tapes with coaches. You know, Mike Tyson famously, uh, had a, uh... One of his managers was a historian of boxing. So Mike Tyson would watch old films of, like, the great Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

    25. WC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      And, like, Harry Greb and all these old school boxers. And he'd look at their-

    27. WC

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      ... movements and he would adopt some of their, their, their attacks and defense. And, you know, there's, there's definitely benefit to watching yourself and seeing where you screw up. And... But there's also a benefit to having a mental coach. Mike Tyson also had, um, Cus D'Amato, who was his longtime boxing coach who had adopted him when he was 13, was also a hypnotist. And worked with him on the mental aspect of his game. And would literally say to him, "You do not exist. Only the task exists. The task of breaking this man down." And this was imparted in him when he was a small boy, he was for- 13 years old. And also wha- what was imparted was that when he did do this thing, he experienced love and appreciation and adulation at a level that he never had in his life. So his life, he was at this great deficit-

    29. WC

      (laughs)

    30. JR

      ... of love. He didn't have-

  10. 52:35 – 1:18:03

    Instagram culture, influencers, and the authenticity paradox (why podcasts resonate)

    1. JR

      It's... And then social media, this is, uh, we kind of touched on it briefly, but it seems to me that if there's anything in this world that feeds narcissism, it would be Instagram.

    2. WC

      It is, it... I mean, so social media, I- I... So- (laughs) so when I first heard about Facebook, it's probably been 10, 15 y- 12 years, whenever it came out, and I went to one of my student, Laura, and I was like, "This is crazy, we gotta study this. Study narcissism at Facebook, this is crazy."

    3. JR

      So 12 years ago, you thought this?

    4. WC

      Yeah, I mean, at first, you know, I'm like, "This is bigger than Woodstock."

    5. JR

      So this was 2007, 2008?

    6. WC

      2000... I think the paper is like, 2007 or '8, yeah.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. WC

      Um, and- and so we looked at narcissists and we were like, "Wow, God, the people who are narcissistic have more friends on Facebook, they- they spend more time on their picture, they got more glamour shots." You know, you-

    9. JR

      Mm.

    10. WC

      ... kind of see these- that- that- you know, you- it- that people are using social media to kind of put out an image of themselves and get followers. And people have been looking at it since. And with narcissism, you see people who are narcissistic are just more dialed in to social media, they have more followers, more friends, more connections, um, send more selfies. They- the- the kind of thing is just dialed in for narcissism.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. WC

      And narcissism is the energy- it's one of the energies, one of the big energies that keeps those systems working.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. WC

      And Instagram (laughs) , people haven't really done a lot of comparison social media work, like, is narcissism higher on Instagram than Twitter versus TikTok? It- you know, because these things keep to be- they change culturally and we don't have that much money to do research. Um, but when I look at them, Instagram seems like the one that's kind of dialed in for narcissists in particular, 'cause it's photographic, it's-

    15. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    16. WC

      ... you know, it's very good for status seeking.

    17. JR

      It's also- it's- it's the easiest to lie because you have filters.

    18. WC

      Oh, yeah.

    19. JR

      Yeah, and then people pose in front of cars that maybe they rented or not- aren't theirs or...

    20. WC

      I find the whole thing hilarious.

    21. JR

      It's weird.

    22. WC

      Yeah, you get a hype house.

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. WC

      I mean, this- I guess that's more-

    25. JR

      Hype house, as they call it?

    26. WC

      ... Tik... That's that- in, uh, YouTube.

    27. JR

      (laughs)

    28. WC

      That's what they call it, my students who study YouTube. They get a hype house down in Malibu, you know, you rent-

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. WC

      ... a house on the beach-

Episode duration: 2:45:55

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