EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,052 words- 0:02 – 4:07
Remote catch-up: COVID testing, studio precautions, and life disruptions
- GSGad Saad
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music)
- GSGad Saad
Hello.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's up, man? How are you?
- GSGad Saad
Hey.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you. The Gadfather.
- GSGad Saad
You too. How you doing, man?
- JRJoe Rogan
I- I miss you, man. It's been a long time. I wish we could do it in studio, but I don't think you're allowed to travel from Canada right now, right?
- GSGad Saad
I'm not, but I'm so worried about your COVID results that just like my hero, Joe Biden, told me, I need to wear a mask. What do you think of that of marketing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, I like it. The Parasitic Mind Mask. Excellent.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you- do- are you selling those?
- GSGad Saad
Uh, I- we- we will be eventually, but my publisher's still working out all the final details, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Beautiful. Beautiful.
- GSGad Saad
I wanna know, how are you doing with the COVID? How is, uh, the truth seeker, Jamie, doing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Young Jamie's all good to go. He was only really sick for a day 'cause he's young and virile and he takes his vitamin D and zinc and vitamin C and all that stuff. He caught it, we don't know where he caught it. He believes he might've caught it at a bar or a- on a patio. But, uh, really was only sick for a day, but, you know, we had to do the right thing. And so, we were locked out. He was locked out for 10 days and he had four positive COVID results in a row. Now, five. Did you get one today? Six? Negative. They were negative results. Oh, excuse me. (laughs) Pa- I mean, positive in a good way. They're positive for us. Yes. Correct.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Negative- negative in terms of him having the disease, but positive in a good way. So, he's- he's good.
- GSGad Saad
And you've always been negative?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I've always been negative.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, good. All right. Well, good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Fortunately. Yeah, but, uh, we're good to go now. So, no issues. No one else has gotten it. It's amazing that Jamie is the first person in studio that actually tested positive. We've tested everyone. Today was my 48th test. I've been tested 48 different times. Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
Is that the invasive one where they really go up and tickle your brain or it is a less fancy one? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't- they don't have to do that anymore.
- GSGad Saad
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, they- they found it just- I mean, it doesn't feel good, but they just- they don't go all the way up. They go kinda mid-way and they just do it for 10 seconds in each nostril, and then they stick it in the machine and you get a result in 15 minutes.
- GSGad Saad
How, uh- how- how much has this whole thing affected your life? I mean, other than having to do things remotely and so on.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's affected everyone's life, right? Um-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... doing things remotely. We've- we have actually shockingly done not that many remotely. A lot of the people we brought in and just tested everybody. It's just so much better. I mean, you know, when we're face-to-face, I mean, you and I have been friends for a long time now. How many years have we been doing these things together?
- 4:07 – 10:56
Lockdowns, economics, and the politics of public health rules
- JRJoe Rogan
These are minor concerns, I believe, in comparison to the people whose businesses are shut down and the people who've lost family members and, you know, have- have struggled personally health wise with the- the disease. Uh, the- the number of people that are losing their businesses is just insane. I mean, this is unprecedented. It's- there's nothing like it. And one of the reasons why we left California is 'cause of their Draconian measures that they're using-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to shut things down. You know, the- the initial conversation, they were gonna shut it down until they flattened out the curve and the hospitals, uh, were at capa- you know, were able to accept people and they weren't overburdened. Well, they're not overburdened now.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they still have everything shut down. It doesn't make any sense. And they're saying now th- after the election, after the election is what they keep saying. So, they're not even h- trying to hide that it's political. And, you know, Jamie and I and the rest of the crew, we were all pretty sick of it, and it just- our freedoms are being im- impinged upon. It just didn't- it didn't, infringed upon rather, it didn't seem like the- what we signed up for. You know, we never signed up for an autocrat. We never signed up for the government to be able to tell us that we can't work. And this is insane. This has never happened before. And it, you know, it makes all the wacky, tinfoil hat conspiracy theories actually seem to make more sense than they've ever made before, which is even more terrifying.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because people have already been QAnoned out the ass online. Everyone's so crazy already online, and this is all- gives them more- it adds more fuel to the fire that this is real. And it seems to be in a lot of ways, I mean, that they are- they're doing this for political purposes, which is terrifying.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah, you know, I analogize it to, you know, if you wanna raise children well, you need to have, you know, consistent parenting so that the child knows what he or she needs to do to get the strokes and what he or she needs to do if they're going to get punished. When you have a haphazard...... parental style. It's a form of mind fuck, if I might say, for the child, because they don't know when to expect your love or your scorn.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- GSGad Saad
And in a sense, I view the current COVID regulations akin to a inconsistent parent, right? I don't know if tomorrow I'm allowed to invite people over for a small barbecue at my house or not. It all seems very sort of flying by the seat of your pants, and I think that's what stresses me the most, that I can't really have any sense of regularity or any predictability in my life. I think that's the really tough part.
- JRJoe Rogan
What are the regulations in Montreal, in terms of what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do, and are they as draconian a- an- a- as they are here in the United States? Well, particularly in California? And, and-
- GSGad Saad
I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
... Texas-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Texas, they give you a lot more freedom. It's really nice.
- GSGad Saad
So, right now, we're on our second month of pretty complete lockdown. Not lockdown in the sense that you can't go out on the street, but you can't go to re- The restaurants are closed. You can only take out. The cafes are closed. The gyms are closed. So you could certainly walk around the city freely, but most of the things that you and I might do if we're gonna leave our house, we can't do. I can't go to the gym. I can't go to a cafe. I can't go to a restaurant. So in that sense, it's quite tough. So I end up spending, you know, most of my time either at home, or I go for long walks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is this a national thing or is it a regional thing?
- GSGad Saad
I think it varies across each, um, uh, province, because of all of the provinces for, you know, for much of the COVID crisis, Quebec and Montreal, in particular, were some of the hotspots. As a matter of fact, where I live was one of the hotspots within the hotspots of Montreal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- GSGad Saad
And so we were quite, quite concerned. And so we've tried to limit, to the best of our abilities, you know, going out, but you know, especially in Montreal, where, as you know, you lived in Boston, uh, winter is coming. So it was easy to kind of go through COVID when it's April, you know, May and June and July. It's going to be a lot more challenging to do the lockdown when it's, you know, minus 20, and I haven't been outside for three weeks.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, what they tried to do in LA is really bizarre. They, they tried to tell people, "You can't have people over for, like, a party. You can't have families over for your house." And they were actually asking people to turn their neighbors in.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is just-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They were offering rewards for people turning their neighbors in. You know, uh, in the beginning, it made sense, 'cause we were worried that two million people were gonna die, and this was a, a disease that was gonna ravage the entire country. But then, when you look at the survival rate, it doesn't pan out. If we knew coming into... If COVID... We had all the information that we have now at the beginning, if we had all that information now, and they proposed the same lockdown, I think people would've resisted. They would've been furious.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
The problem is, they initially agreed to it thinking that it was gonna be way worse than it was, and then, when it turned out to not be nearly as deadly as we feared, there was no adjustments made.
- GSGad Saad
I, I, I hear you. And you know, I've had a few, uh, you know, virologists on my show, and I think you have as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
And several of them have told me that they- e- early in the lockdown, that they thought that there wasn't a very good cost-benefit analysis in terms of the repercussions of such a lockdown, that many of the costs of the lockdown were not being taken into account within the modeling. And I think their position has turned out to be true, right? Very few people talk about the missed cancer screenings and the heart disease and the anxiety and the depression and the spousal abuse and the child abuse. And so I don't know when that auto-corrective mechanism's going to work, but I, I suspect that people are not gonna tolerate this for much longer, I think.
- 10:56 – 12:05
From cities to “idea pathogens”: why urban culture skews progressive
- GSGad Saad
I hear you. Is- By the way, is, is, is California the most Democratic state at the various levels of any state? Is that- Would that be true to say?
- JRJoe Rogan
I wonder. Um, New York's pretty Democratic as well. It's the coastal cities. You, you know, it's something- It's interesting, 'cause I- Maybe I could ask you this.
- GSGad Saad
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you think, uh, cities become so liberal? Because it seems like there's no real conservative cities.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cities, cities almost always go blue.
- GSGad Saad
Uh, I suspect it's because that's where sort of the intelligentsia end up going, and as, as you know, most of the folks with- that are within the intelligentsia are typically exactly the people that I discuss in The Parasitic Mind, the people who are parasitized by all these idea pathogens. Uh, and so I suspect that, you know, if you are an up-and-coming person who lives in Binghamton, New York, no disrespect to New York, uh, to Binghamton, and then you wanna make it, you, you move to, to New York, and then you get, uh, some degree in a liberal arts college, you get parasitized by these idiotic ideas. And then slowly, all of these urban areas become ultra-progressive. I, I, I can't think what would be another explanation.
- 12:05 – 14:22
Gad’s mindset: optimism, resilience, and the “intellectual honey badger”
- JRJoe Rogan
There's so few...... intellectuals and, uh, academics that have avoided this. How-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... have you managed to be so steadfast?
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause you have-
- GSGad Saad
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
... avoided this from the beginning, and I know you've been criticized, but you come out of it smiling always.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Your attitude is very admirable. It always has been-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because-
- GSGad Saad
You're very kind.
- JRJoe Rogan
You, but you're always smiling through all the nuttiness. Y- you seem to have a great disposition about this.
- GSGad Saad
You know, I'm, I'm, well, it's a, it's a lovely question, thank you. Uh, I think I'm endowed with a happy disposition, so that when I wake up in the morning, notwithstanding all of the possible challenges I might face in a day, I'm like a kid in a candy store. I wake up and I'm excited, "Oh my God, I'm gonna speak to Joe Rogan today." I'm happy. If I weren't speaking to Joe Rogan, I would be working on the next paper or the ne- so, eh, eh, dispositionally, I'm someone who's happy, which I think protects me against the lunacy, because even though, of course I get stressed, of course I get beaten down. My, my innate disposition is to be smiling, and so in a sense, I'm lucky enough to have got, to have won the genetic lottery of being someone who views the world through an optimistic lens. And I think that's what allows me to, to fight the fights that I do, because otherwise, I think I would have beaten down long time ago. I mean, the only way that, as you know, you could survive in the cesspool of academia, uh, saying the things that I say, is first of all to be, as you said, happy and optimistic, but also to be ... So I talk about, in chapter eight of the book, I talk about, you know, activating your inner honey badger.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
The honey badger is an incredibly ferocious animal, as you know, Joe, so he could withstand the approach of eight adult lions. The honey badger is the size of, you know, a small dog. How, how could it be that lions are intimidated by the honey badger? Well, because he's ferocious. And so, while I may have a happy disposition, as you know, if you've seen me in some of my battles in social media, I'm also an intellectual honey badger. If you come after me, you better come correct, 'cause I'm gonna come after you, I'm gonna come after your ancestors, I'm gonna come after your dead ancestors.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
And so I think, you know, the tenacity, coupled with the optimistic outlook, is kind of the, the right cocktail of traits to have to be able to fight the lunacy.
- 14:22 – 24:57
Why long-form podcasts threaten academic elitism (and how they scale influence)
- JRJoe Rogan
You're also a person who embraced early on alternative media, in terms of y- the, your ability to spread your word, YouTube, podcasts, all these different things. You, you recognize that there is a real benefit in s- particularly long-form conversations, where you're able to express yourself, uh, unchecked, uncensored, and really get your full idea out there, so people can understand, like, you're not some bizarre reactionary who's not making any sense. You're, you're a man who, uh, uh, has studied this your whole life, and you've thought through this very deeply and written about it, you know-
- GSGad Saad
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... ve- very accurately.
- GSGad Saad
Exactly. And I, I, I think I might have mentioned this story before to you on this show, but it's, it's worth repeating. Uh, it's actually a story that I discuss in the book. It relates to you. So, uh, you know, when I went to Stanford Business School several years ago, uh, to give a talk, uh, you know, as, as you, as you might imagine, it's a very, you know, uh, highfalutin, elitist environment. The, the host who took me out that evening, uh, prior to my talk, the night before my talk, uh, said, "Oh, you know, I hear you're going on Joe Rogan." I said, "Yeah, yeah, you know, we're friends, you know, love to go on Joe. It's such a great forum to spread ideas." And he was very haughty, right? He goes, "Well, you know, at Stanford, we don't support, uh, you know, doing research so that you can appear on Joe Rogan." And I said, "Well, what do you mean? You d- you don't think it's a good idea to appear on a platform that allows you to spread your ideas to 10 million people instead of writing a paper that will be read by you, your mom, two reviewers and an editor?" Uh, well, I guess he didn't like that response, but the reality is that that's the kind of elitism that you see in academia, where, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm happy to see that a growing number of academics are coming on a platform like yours, because it is insane to not take advantage of such platforms. Look, I am in the currency of creating knowledge and then spreading knowledge. Well, I could appear on Joe Rogan's podcast for five minutes and have greater impact than if I published 10 papers in the most elite scientific journals. So, so yes, I embrace those forums, because pragmatically, it's a wonderful way to have fantastic conversations, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
It, it is, and it's beautiful that brave academics are being rewarded. The people that are willing to go on my podcast and other podcasts, you know, that, you know, might get looked down upon by these s- scholars, you know, uh, th- they, they, they get rewarded by enormous audiences. And also-
- GSGad Saad
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... curious people that, you know, maybe have full-time jobs, uh, maybe didn't go to college, but are curious folks that want to explore these ideas and explore them being described by a person such as yourself, who has deeply studied them.
- GSGad Saad
Joe, do you know how many... And I, I know you know this already. I don't, I don't have to tell you how incredible your platform is. I could be walking on a beach in Bahamas, and that, that, that literally happened, by the way, where a local Bahamian will come up to me and say, "Oh my God, aren't you, didn't you appear on Joe Rogan?" So I mean, and I don't say this to, to talk about fame, but to, to demonstrate the kind of platform you've created, where I could be in a bathroom in some little town and someone's going to recognize me because I appeared on the show. And I say this not because of the recognition factor or the fame, but again, if I am in the business of discussing ideas, I should use every possible tool, whether it be your podcast, or if I create my own podcast. Any way that I can spread ideas, I'm gonna jump on it. I think a lot of academics don't do it because of an ego defensive reason, which is, they know that they may not be able to pull it off appearing on Joe Rogan, and therefore, they denigrate those who can, right? Because they've mastered one form of communication, which is, you know, the, the rigid academic paper. That, they can do well, and that's great. I mean, we, we are professors. We should be publishing academic papers. But why not try to-... tip your toes on, uh, you know, so that the public can get excited about your ideas, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I've, I've had a lot of academics on the show, and I, uh, I applaud them. I'm, I'm happy that they're willing to do that. But I, I do understand that the environment of academia, it, i- it's kind of a thought bubble, right? Like, they're all-
- GSGad Saad
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they're all echoing sort of the same ideas and reinforcing those ideas within each other. And, you know, but, in their defense, this is how it's been forever. I mean, social media and, and, i- i- uh, alternative media, like podcasts and YouTube, we're talking a decade or two. I mean, it's not that much time. I mean, this podcast is 11 years old. That's nothing.
- GSGad Saad
But doesn't it suck that academ- ... I mean, I always analogize academics to Navy SEALs, right? When we choose Navy SEALs, we're picking people who, hopefully, have athleticism, have great courage, bravery. So, shouldn't we be picking similar traits in our intellectuals? But we're not, right? So, we don't create intellectual SEALs who are willing to go in uncharted intellectual territo- uh, territories. Rather, we create, you know, tepid, uh, ch- sheepish academics who stay in their lanes, who never rock the boat. And as you and I know, the world is shaped by people who are unorthodox, right? Whether it be Sigmund Freud telling us about the unconscious mind, or Charles Darwin developing his theory of selec- you know, natural selection, or Galileo, or Socrates, the world is shaped by those who weren't fe- fence-sitters, right? You became who you are with your podcast because you decided to step out of the bubble and create something that no one else had created before, a three-hour intimate conversation with incredible guests. So, I always tell people, "Yes, you could play it safe, but no one will remember you. If you take risks, the great rewards will befall you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, honestly, the risks, they're not that great. That's what's crazy. Like, the, the, especially this podcast, rewarding me, it's hilarious, 'cause I never, uh, uh, intended to do this in the first place.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
This is all just an accident. I started this podcast smoking pot and talking to my friends on a laptop, and it became, like, slowly but surely, a place where I could get guests and then explore things that I'm interested in. And, uh, I don't even remember how you and I first got in contact with each other. I know we have, in common, your nephew-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Ariel Helwani, who is a, uh, an MMA journalist for ESPN. And I've known Ariel for years. But, uh, other than that, how did we even get in contact with each other?
- GSGad Saad
I, I think it was through Twitter. Maybe I was communicating with Ariel or vice versa. We got onto a thread together, and that's how we first connected, and you said, "Hey, come on my show," and so on. And of course, I was very excited to come. That's, I think, how it started. It was through some, you know, connection through Ariel. I don't remember the details. But look where we are now, man. What do we have? 21, 25 hours of content between the two of us?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And when was the last time you were on? How long ago was it- has it been?
- GSGad Saad
I think it was December 2018, so almost two years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the, the podcast is probably five times, six times bigger now.
- GSGad Saad
Are you kidding me?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- GSGad Saad
A- c- ... Are y- are you able to share any metrics just so that you can make me super envious?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hundreds of millions of downloads a month.
- GSGad Saad
That is insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's insane. The weird thing is that when we went over to Spotify, it actually got bigger. Like, the, the numbers on YouTube and iTunes didn't shrink. They just, we just picked up new listeners. It's b- very bizarre. I, I expected that the numbers would drop on iTunes because we have this new platform. But since we're on both platforms now, what happened is we just gained new people on Spotify that really, maybe, were Spotify loyalists that, you know, just, uh, had always been accustomed to it, and they said, "Let me check it out." And then the numbers on Spotify just keep growing and growing. So, it's, uh, it's real weird.
- GSGad Saad
H- h- how d- how do you ... I mean, when you wake up in the morning, can you, can you believe that you've become this cultural icon that sort of moderates all these unbelievable conversations with all sorts of incredible people? I mean, isn't it incredible?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, it's incredible in that it's not credible. (laughs) It doesn't make any sense.
- GSGad Saad
You're being modest.
- 24:57 – 34:23
Taboos, masturbation talk, and evolutionary explanations of pornography
- JRJoe Rogan
The, the porn star thing is very interesting, because people avoid even the topic of porn. But yet, clearly, a lot of people are watching it.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And a good example, and I don't mean to throw this guy under the bus, is the, uh, the journalist from The New Yorker, who, uh, unfortunately was on a Zoom call recently, and thought he had muted his video and did not.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And, while he's, while he was at work, on the Zoom call, decided to start masturbating.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And didn't know that people-
- GSGad Saad
Jeffrey Toobin, Jeffrey Toobin.
- JRJoe Rogan
I wasn't gonna say his name. I just wanna say-
- GSGad Saad
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that you said his name and not me. I-
- GSGad Saad
Okay, sorry.
- JRJoe Rogan
I feel terrible for the man, because, uh, first of all, because I masturbate. I know that's gonna sound crazy, but I do, and I know, uh, there are many men who masturbate.
- GSGad Saad
Well, you're, you're married, so of course you masturbate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I, even before I was married, I masturbated. I'm gonna be honest with you. Um, I am a lifelong masturbator. I think I discovered it, uh, in my teenage years, and I've been a, uh, an avid pursuer of it ever since. I think it, it's a clarity device. Uh, but it's also, I mean, in terms of, like, when you get horny, you get very confused. Like, uh, m- men who are horny have one thing on their mind, and it's, uh, it's a good tool to eliminate that one thing from your mind. And you could... Look, uh, you don't wanna be fixated by something. If you're hungry, you should eat. You know? You don't wanna be-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... just, like, starving all day. Just eat. If you-
- GSGad Saad
D- d... I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.
- JRJoe Rogan
No. Uh, uh, but, but my point is, w- we all sort of wanna pretend that we're not doing that.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very stra-... Like, intellectually, we all know that we do it. We, everyone knows we do it. Everyone does it. Pretty much everyone does it. But when you discuss it, people are like, "Ugh." They roll their eyes. They pull their head... It's outta shame. It's a very-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... strange thing. There's, we have biological needs. And if you don't attend to these biological needs, you, I believe that you can have very confusing motives. And people that are excessively horny, they, they're distracted. Uh, it's not healthy.
- GSGad Saad
So, two, two Seinfeld references that speak exactly to that point. You ready?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
Uh, so, the, the first one is actually one that I discussed in my first book, my 2007 book, The Evolutionary Basis of Consumption, where I was talking about how you can analyze cultural products, including, you know, sitcom themes, via an evolutionary lens. And so, I take the example of the classic episode from Seinfeld, uh, Master of My Domain, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
Where... Remember that show?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, yes.
- GSGad Saad
So, the master of my domain, of course, is a euphemism for, uh, who could, uh, withstand their masturbatory urges the longest. And then I say, "Well, let's analyze that plot line of that particular show from an evolutionary perspective." And so, the first thing you might remember is that there, you know, there are three male characters and one female one. They all recognize that she has to put in more money into the, into the pot, the, the-
- 34:23 – 48:22
Labeling, cancellation, and academic cowardice: the mechanics of discrediting
- GSGad Saad
And, and I mean, it's happened many, many times, but m- but most famously was the time when, and I, and I know you've become very good friends with, uh, Jordan Peterson. Uh, Jordan and I had been invited in 2017 to speak at Ryerson University, which is a university in Toronto, and the, the title of the, the talk was, uh, The Stifling of Free Speech on University Campuses, and guess what happened to that speech?
- JRJoe Rogan
What-
- GSGad Saad
It got canceled.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you're a Nazi?
- GSGad Saad
No, no, no. Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
... so they canceled it because, you know, we're these controversial guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- GSGad Saad
And then the people who, who are the agitators who canceled us put out Facebook flyers where they said, you know, "Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are not welcome in Toronto."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
And so when I wrote and said, "Well, but I'm Lebanese Jew," that didn't alter, I was still a Neo-Nazi. And so it shows you what happens when people are completely parasitized by political tribalism. It's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not just a Lebanese Jew, a Lebanese Jew who feared for his life and fled Lebanon-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because you're a Jew.
- GSGad Saad
Isn't that amazing?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's disgusting. It's just such-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a stupid way to discredit someone's ideas instead of, uh, instead of having conversation. This is one of the w- the weirdest things about our, our current climate is that instead of engaging with people on these ideas and discussing them, they look to discredit, and they look to discredit with these disingenuous l- labels. And I-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very unfortunate, and it's, it's an anti-intellectual approach.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, it's a- it's, it's unbelievable because you know why? Because it's a... So there is something in psychology called a fast and frugal heuristic. So right, so m- most of us when we're making a decision don't necessarily sit and weigh the, all the pros and cons of, you know, a multi-attribute choice that we're making. Rather, we wanna use some simplifying decision rule to arrive at a choice. Well, to label s- your debate opponent one of these names in a sense is a ugly manifestation of a fast and frugal heuristic, right? 'Cause it takes very little cognitive effort for me to deploy it, right? I don't have to really engage the merits of your point. "You're a Nazi, shut up, we're done." Uh, and as you said, I mean, it is the height of anti-intellectualism, and by the way, it's not just...... uh, you know, the typical social media blue-haired person who does it, even academics engage in this form of anti-intellectualism. And that's what upsets me the most, that they should know better and yet they succumb to the same kind of facet- fascist strategies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's a spectrum of intellectuals as well, right? And some of 'em are, uh, simple-minded in, in many ways. I mean, although they're intelligent and although they're well-read and they're scholars, they, they still, they... I hate to use the word, but they're lazy. They, they, they-
- GSGad Saad
They are lazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
... don't wanna engage in this intellectual gladiatorial combat about their ideas. And that's what it is.
- GSGad Saad
And that's e-... So, uh, certainly that, and I would also say that academia has regrettably created, uh, if you like, the reward mechanisms for hyper-specialization, right? So when, when you're thinking about becoming a, an academic, a scientist, you, you really can sort of follow one of two strategies. You can become a unbelievable expert in a very, very narrow area, because that creates economies of scale, right? I don't have to continuously go back and check the literature because I really know everything there is to know about this very, very small area of expertise. Or, you could be a polymath. You could be a, a broad thinker. And regrettably, much of academia promotes the former rather than the latter. Now if you look at my own scientific career, uh, I haven't done the things that I should be doing according to the rules of the academic game, because if I were trying to maximize, you know, according to the rules, I should only be publishing in journals that are within my er- narrow area of expertise, evolutionary psychology, consumer psychology, psychology of decision-making. But if you go and look at my CV, I've published in medicine, in economics, in psy- in psychiatric issues, in, in consumer behavior, in evolutionary theory, in bibliometrics. I don't care where I publish. If you have a problem that I think I could contribute to, sign me up. And s- that kinda speaks to what we talked about earlier when we were talking about willingness to speak to all sorts of people. It's an openness of spirit, of mind. I'm willing to go to any intellectual landscape as long as it triggers my interest. I don't play by the rules. I like to be free.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's, it's part of being a curious human being, isn't it? And this-
- GSGad Saad
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, shouldn't that be encouraged? I mean, it seems like when a person i- is as intelligent as yourself chooses to take your, your, your mind and apply it to other different disciplines and different ideas, that should be rewarded.
- GSGad Saad
I've been told the exact opposite. I've been told by colleagues that they were looking at hiring me at some other university, but then when they looked at my CV and saw that I had published in all these different areas, that it looked like I wasn't focused, I was scattered. I didn't div-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 48:22 – 58:49
Victimhood incentives and “concept creep”: redefining harm to control language
- GSGad Saad
No, no, no. No, no, no. But, uh ... But, but by the way, uh, I ... You know, I had to do a, um ... One of those mandatory sex education, uh, tests at the start of last year, uh, at university. A- all professors, all students, everybody has to take it. And one of the questions, I don't remember the exact words, was, you know, "If you see a guy, you know, catcalling a woman on campus, uh, is that a form of sexual violence?" Uh, or something to that effect. And, you know, I knew what was the, the answer going to be, so I, I ... And I answered, "No," and then it kinda prompts you, and it's like, "No, it is a form of sexual violence." And then they kind of explain it to me as if I were a three-year-old child who hasn't yet mastered the dynamics of being social amongst human beings.And so, so while I might have been satirical about the compliment rape, we have gotten to the stage now where it is mandatory for university participants, whether they be faculty members or staff or students, to take these mandatory sexual, uh, you know, uh, training manuals. It's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
I kind of understand why they want people to think differently about harassment. I get that. I mean, I would hate to be ... Look, I've been hit on by gay men and, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's odd, it's complimentary.
- GSGad Saad
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
But when they get it ... But I've been hit on, uh, only a couple times in my life, but a few times where it was aggressive. And I was like, what's different is, first of all, the man who was doing, one particular guy who was doing it, that was the most aggressive that I can remember, was not physically dangerous to me. Like, I could've killed him if I wanted to.
- GSGad Saad
Right. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So, I was like, "Listen, man, stop." But it wasn't, it wasn't, I wasn't, it wa- the w- the roles weren't reversed. But like, if it was Mike Tyson who was doing that to me, I would feel terrified because if he wanted to beat me up and, and have his way with me, there's not a lot I could do. You know?
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Just, I would, I would kinda be br- and, and-
- GSGad Saad
It, it's also called prison.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs) So, I don't have the understanding that a woman would have. When a woman is being approached by a man, there's a very real concern that she could be raped.
- GSGad Saad
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's, I don't have that same concern unless someone's drugged me or done something. If the man is weaker physically than me, I don't have that concern. But I try to look at it from a woman's perspective and I get how catcalling, if you're a woman, uh, particularly if there's a large group of men and they say things to you, that's terrifying. It could be terrifying. I could understand, but it's not violence.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
The problem with the word violence is, you start using that word with other th- like silence is violence. No it's not. Violence is violence.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Silence, silence is not violence. You can't bastardize these words. You can't distort the meaning of these words because as soon as you do, you're, you're, you're forcing people to comply with, uh, uh, you're, you're, you're resetting language. You're changing definitions.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't do that. You can say it's very disrespectful, it's rude and it's intimidating to catcall a woman. I would agree to that.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I would say it's, I've never done it. I'm not a type of person who, if a girl walks by I'm like, "Hey baby." That's not, I'm, you know. I've, I, I've not, I've never been raised that way. I, I've never, I, I don't, I don't do it. I've never done it. I don't appreciate it. But it's not violence. It's just gross. It's, it's, it's intimidating. It's harassment and if I was a woman I would fucking hate it. But, uh, you c- we need clear definitions. We need, I mean-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... words are noises that we make that convey intent. When you say that it's sexual violence to catcall, you're fucking with language and you're, you're fucking with it in order to reinf- 'cause everyone knows violence is bad. Right? Every k- everyone knows violence is evil. Everyone knows violence should not be to- tolerated in a polite society. So when you, uh, uh, in, you attach an extreme definition, an extreme word, uh, that doesn't apply, but you force it into a situation, well you're, you're fucking with the, the, our definition of the way people behave and think. And you're doing it to sort of force compliance into your ideology and what you, what you feel the way people should, should act and behave.
- GSGad Saad
And so I've, I've got a psychological mechanism that I explain in The Parasitic Mind, uh, about how you redefine realities so that you can get the victimology narrative that you want.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- GSGad Saad
And I call it the homeostasis of victimology. And so let me explain what homeostasis is. So if you think about your, uh, thermostat in your room, uh, it is a homeostatic machine because what it basically says is, "Okay, I'm gonna set the temperature at 70 and it's gonna sample the air. If it's too hot it will release the air conditioning. If it's too, uh, warm," yeah, vice versa, right? So, uh, our bodies are made of many homeostate- static systems, right? If I'm hungry and my blood sugar goes below a set point, I have approach behavior to food, right? So many of our physiological systems are homeostatic. Many of our psychological systems are homeostatic. And so I argue that this ever- never ending redefinition of words and, and context to make it seem as though they are rape or violence or misogyny is what I call the homeostasis of victimology, which is what basically? There is a set point that we need so that we can always argue that our society is evil and s- sexist and, and, and racist and so on. If the reality is that you can't identify that sexism and racism, you simply redefine words, redefine concepts, so that you could get your set point. You follow what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- GSGad Saad
So, and, and there's a similar concept that's called concept creep, uh, from an Australian psychologist that argues along the same lines, right? Uh, and it's exactly the reason, by the way, why someone like Jussie Smollett will engage in, you know, full victimology because he is basically saying, "Look, I, I need to reach a set level of victimology so I can have the right currency to ascend the apex of victimology. And if, if I don't have that narrative, then I will manufacture it." And hence, the homeostasis of victimology.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well in his case it's extreme, right, because he literally-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's fraudulent. I mean, he literally created a fake attack. And, but this is, you know, we, we know that ... And I, I hate the narrative like no one would ever fake an attack or no one would ever lie about being harassed or attacked or even raped. Of course they would. People lie about everything. Like the, the idea that human beings would never lie about something, you, that is such a gross generalization. There's-... there's a reason why there's a word called lie. There's a reason why-
- 58:49 – 1:14:38
Platform power: social media censorship, deplatforming, and utility-like regulation
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, in the United States, at least. I'm not really that familiar with your political system in Canada, but in the United States, it's reinforced because we really only have two parties. And so much so that, uh, Bret Weinstein created this thing, Unity 2020, where he was trying to bring together conservatives and, and liberals together and, and find some common ground. And he was promoting this as an alternative to the two-party system, and they were banned from Twitter, banned-
- GSGad Saad
I know. By the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
... from Tw- Twitter. Ban- they banned his personal Facebook page and then tried to say that it was an error. But it was not. It was a conscious decision. What, you know, there are people that work for these social media companies, uh, that have since left and now talk about it openly that they did have the freedom to edit things. They did have the freedom to delete things. They did have... And that they sort of took pleasure in doing so, and that you were sort of given this leeway if you felt like something was ideologically opposed to the terms and services of, of whatever, uh, social media organization you're working for, you were allowed to, to make that distinction. It's very subjective. You were allowed to say, "Well, this is, this is negative. This is d- negative towards our election. This is, uh, this is promoting, uh, something that's gonna damage the Democratic Party, so we're just going to ban the Twitter account for violating terms of services." It's, it's never been clear as to what... It's still banned. That Twitter account is still banned, and they just do this based on their own personal political beliefs. It's not-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... uh, it's not about truth. It's not about, uh, the freedom of expression. Like, this i- you should be free to express the idea that the two-party system has major flaws, and one of the flaws is human beings' natural inclination towards tribalism. We're very aware of that, and if you find support within your tribe and you have, uh, steadfastedly, steadfastedly adhered to these, uh, these, these ideals that the left has or the right has, you'll be rewarded. Like, "You're a part of us. Yay. Good job, Gad," or, "Good job, Joe." Like, "You, uh, you have adopted our conglomeration of opinions, and you have stuck to them." And w- they're so predictable on both sides, right? On the left, you're supposed to be pro-choice. On the right, you're supposed to be pro-Second Amendment, and they, th- you know, we, we have a, of, a series of these different things that you have to adhere to if you're on either side of that line. And people take comfort in knowing that there's other people on their tribe that also think that way, and they, they find some, uh, some commonality in that, and they, they find this, uh, this camaraderie in their, uh, th- knowledge that this person that they're talking to has also agreed to stay within the lo- these lines.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, indeed. Look, I, I ... Quick story that recently happened to me regarding all these social media platforms. I posted on, on all my social media platform, including on LinkedIn, a post where I basically said, "Hey, you know, uh, Joe Biden might have been a parasitic nothing for the past 47 years, but just wait next year when in the 48th year he's really gonna, you know, solve diabetes and cure cancer." It was a satirical thing where I was kind of arguing that, you know, he hasn't done much throughout his public life. Uh, LinkedIn removed it because it violated their community standards of harassment and bullying.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
Well, who was I harassing and bullying, right? I mean, I was harassing and bullying a public figure who's running to become the President of the United States, but that was bullying to him. That's the world we live in. So I think guys like ... I don't know if you know these guys, and you might wanna consider if, if they're willing to come on your show to have them on, guys like Senator Josh Hawley, Senator Tom Cotton, and Ted Cruz have been trying to, you know, reform, uh, the, the legal, uh, you know, taking these social media from being, uh, you know, uh, un- y- so that they don't get the protection anymore. Their, their actual publishers, right? Uh, so that they don't get the protection of, "Hey, you can't sue us if we do stuff." Uh, so that they don't get the protection of, "Hey, you can't sue us if we do stuff." Uh, but of course most other Republicans and Democrats never wanna go after the social media platforms because the ability of all of these top players to fund the politicians, whether they are on the right or left side of the aisle, is so great that most people turn a blind eye. But I really can't see this being something that can be tenable in the future, because just like Brett Weinstein was kicked out, look, uh, the New York Post's account was removed, right? Isn't it shut down because they were running the Joe Biden story?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it was locked out, and Jack Dorsey has since stated that they have amended their policy, and if the New York Post wants to post again, they can, and then they can post the exact same story. What they have to do, however, is they have to go back to their original post, remove it. That will reinstate them, and then they can repost the exact same story, and then they'll have no issues with that whatsoever. And he said that in a conversation that he had with Ted Cruz. It's very confusing. I think that might just have to do with the way their social media platform is structured. Jack Dorsey, though, uh, I can speak from knowing him on a personal level, I, I ... He is a man that believes in free speech.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think that inside the company, he's fighting a battle. But he is personally a, a person that believes that Twitter should be open, and that it should be, it should be an open platform and he believes in free speech. I don't think that idea is ... I don't think it's embraced by the vast majority of the people that make decisions over at Twitter.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think that his idea is probably un- unpopular, but he agrees with the sentiment, the original sentiment of the internet, these, this, the, the ability to distribute information b- for all people. He thinks that all these people that have been deplatformed should have a place, and that the internet should be treated like a utility, and that it should be available to everyone. He believes that. I know he does. But I think-
- GSGad Saad
S-
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's d- very difficult when you're a CEO of something that is a publicly traded company and an enormous company that's arguably one of the three or four biggest platforms for disseminating information on the planet Earth, and was never intended d- to be that. They didn't see it coming. I mean, I'm obviously sounding like a Twitter apologist but, I really like Jack Dorsey as a person and I, I think he's, he's a very honest and he, he's a very interesting human being.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think he gets unfairly maligned but, uh, in my conversations with him, I v- I think he really does believe ... He's actually promo- proposed that there be two Twitters. A Twitter that is, um, that there is some moderation, and a Twitter that's the wild west.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
I actually ... Uh, I've had him on my show also, and, uh, just like you I mean I got the feeling that he's a real genuine, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
... g- genuine person. He really cares about the world. But I think you're exactly right that there are so many different constituencies that are pulling him in different directions, that even though, you know, he may be fully supportive of the freedom of speech that you and I would, would be, would be behind, he's kind of beholden to certain different camps. And so I agree with you. Do, do you think that there'll be eventually a regulatory mechanism that kind of sets all of these social platforms, uh, straight? Or do you think forever more we're going to be beholden to their BS?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's the only way out of this.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... someone has to step in and they have to impose First Amendment ... some protections on free speech on the internet. Right now the internet, these social media platforms are, they're thought of as private companies. They can make their own decision. You know, like maybe if you had, uh, you know, a, a party over at your house, and someone came over your house and they started saying a bunch of, uh, really, uh, offensive things, you could kick them out of your house. But that's your own house.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a private house. But when your house is the world, and you, you get to decide what's offensive and what's not, and other people disagree, the problem is but you're, you're, you're stifling free speech, and you're stifling the ability for people to make up their own mind as to what is and what isn't offensive, what's correct and what's incorrect. And you know, it's been said a million times, I've said it a million times, but the answer to bad speech is not censorship. It's better speech. It's more accurate spe- it's like you have to win the battle of ideas. And much like a lot of these, uh, intellectuals that you were talking about that wanna silence-... uh, alternative perspectives on campus. You see the same thing on social media. People that have these ideological perspectives where they've, they've steadfast adhered to this left-wing agenda, they don't want to engage with anyone that has a disparaging opinion, or a d- a differing opinion. They don't want to. They just want to kick those people off, de-platform them, de-platform them. And they yell it out because it's been effective with people in the past. They've gotten rid of people like Milo. They've gotten rid of Gavin McInnes and Alex Jones, and a lot of these people that they've, they've canceled their voice. But, but I think by doing so, they've done themselves a disservice, whether they recognize it or not. They've done discourse a disser- a d- a disservice. They've done free speech a disservice. And they've created this tyranny of information, where they've decided that they're the ones who get to decide what gets disseminated and what doesn't. Uh, it's very dangerous.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah, you know, 10 years ago, I think it was in 2010, uh, so I started ... I, I have a column on Psychology Today where I publish these, you know, short psychology articles on all sorts of interesting topics. I haven't been writing for them as often these days. But when I started in 2008, I was a very heavy contributor. And at the time, probably the most popular blogger at Psychology Today was a, uh, evolutionary psychologist by the name of Satoshi Kanazawa, who is a, a professor at the London School of Economics in, in England. And he was a very sort of bombastic guy, very politically irreverent, used language that was perhaps at times, you know, un- unadvisable. And he had published an article where he was talking about research, not his research, he was describing someone else's research, where they had done a study looking at, uh, differences in how, you know, women across different races were perceived in terms of their beauty. And, uh, the results had not come out in a way that was politically correct, if you follow what I mean. Now, the way that he had handled that particular topic seemed maybe a bit, uh, bombastic, maybe it wasn't the right words. But right away, there was a huge call to get rid of him from s- uh, Psychology Today, which happened. But they also wanted to get him fired from his tenured position. And I had written an article, and I think I was the only one who had written a public article where ... You could still go find it on my column. Where I said, you know, purging a blogger sets a, a dangerous precedent. If Satoshi Kanazawa's words are wrong, what better punishment is there than to keep his words up there, because the light of, of the sun will forever more condemn him, right? What's the point of getting rid of him? But, of course, people didn't listen to my warnings, and now it's become common ground to get rid of anybody with whom we disagree.
- 1:14:38 – 1:40:32
Election discourse failures: debates, fact-checking, and why Rogan moderation scared campaigns
- GSGad Saad
I'm sorry. That's what happens, by the way, when there are presidential debates where the moderators are typically less than ideal in terms of their e- expressed bias. And that's why I was very excited, and I think I had even shared, uh, when, when, when the rumor was coming out that, you know, you'd be willing to, uh, moderate a debate between Biden and Trump. I thought, "Goddamn, that's a great idea." What- whatever happened with that? Did, did either of their camps, uh, reach out to you or did you connect with them? What, what happened with that whole story?
- JRJoe Rogan
Trump was all in. He was all in.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
He, he wanted to do it. Yeah. He tweeted it. I mean, he, he wanted to do it. He contacted people that contacted me to do it. But I never reached out to the Biden people. I, I felt like if they wanted to do it, they would reach out to me. And, uh, if they did, I would've done it. Um, but I just don't think that's a good forum for him. I mean, as, as we've seen, the debates themselves, specifically the last debate, was not good for him. But what, what I would have done is, like, when he was saying that I've never said I was gonna ban fracking, Jamie would have just pulled up video of him saying-
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... "I'm gonna ban fracking." And that would have been horrible for him. It would have been much better, um, in terms of getting some clarity on what he's actually said and what he's actually done. And, you know, and then the other things about saying that his son never received any money from Russia, and that that's, that's a f- that's a lie, it's been disproven. It hasn't been disproven. He knows it hasn't been disproven, but he knows that he can say that on the air and no one's gonna call him on it. I would have stopped-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the moderation. I would have stopped the thing, right?
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I go, "Sir, we're gonna pull up these articles, and I want you to tell me what about these articles is infactual." Like, "What is, what's a lie?" And-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Are you sure that's a ... Would you be willing to say this in court? Would y- would, would you be willing to risk perjury? Would you say this in front of a judge?" Like, if you ... 'Cause you could be in real trouble if you did that. But you could just lie in a debate and the moderators don't check you, no one says anything about it, no on Googles it. Why can't they just pull up a story? Pull up a video?
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
There's ... I mean, the, the fracking thing-
- GSGad Saad
There should be a Jamie everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
... was particularly egregious. Yeah. Well, there's only one Jamie.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He's right here. We're not giving him up. But someone could have done that. And, and-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it, it would have been much better for the American public to just stop everybody in their tracks. And also, like, why do they have two minutes to answer? That, that's so antiquated. This is so ridiculous.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The idea that you're talking about something that literally can affect the free world, the decision of who gets control of the United States of America, who, what party is in control, and that you're gonna put some arbitrary two-minute time limit on these discussions is crazy. It's, it's so ridiculous. And also, the format is, uh, confined by these time blocks that they have, this 90-minute time block. You d- you shouldn't have a 90-minute time block. You should start it at, like, agreed-upon times, 60 minute, or, uh, 6:00 PM or whatever, whatever you wanna do, and then work it out. Like, Abraham Lincoln and some of the speeches that he gave when he was running for president, they were th- hours and hours long, and he was talking without a microphone, in, you know, like, a town square, and, uh, discussing these ideas that he had. And they would last forever. And that's how you find out what a person thinks and believes. You have to ... And, but now, with the tools that we have available, the fact that they don't use those tools during a presidential debate... Fact-check Trump. When he lies about something, pull it up. Show, show that he's not-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... telling the truth. Show what he actually said. Show what he actually did as opposed to what he said he was doing. Call him out on it. Call Biden out on it. Let's get to the bottom of this. But, you know, even though those tools are available, mainstream media would have to give away control. They would give away control-
Episode duration: 3:01:56
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Transcript of episode 4ugp6FBq6E0
