EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,052 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- GSGad Saad
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music)
- GSGad Saad
Hello.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's up, man? How are you?
- GSGad Saad
Hey.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you. The Gadfather.
- GSGad Saad
You too. How you doing, man?
- JRJoe Rogan
I- I miss you, man. It's been a long time. I wish we could do it in studio, but I don't think you're allowed to travel from Canada right now, right?
- GSGad Saad
I'm not, but I'm so worried about your COVID results that just like my hero, Joe Biden, told me, I need to wear a mask. What do you think of that of marketing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, I like it. The Parasitic Mind Mask. Excellent.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you- do- are you selling those?
- GSGad Saad
Uh, I- we- we will be eventually, but my publisher's still working out all the final details, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Beautiful. Beautiful.
- GSGad Saad
I wanna know, how are you doing with the COVID? How is, uh, the truth seeker, Jamie, doing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Young Jamie's all good to go. He was only really sick for a day 'cause he's young and virile and he takes his vitamin D and zinc and vitamin C and all that stuff. He caught it, we don't know where he caught it. He believes he might've caught it at a bar or a- on a patio. But, uh, really was only sick for a day, but, you know, we had to do the right thing. And so, we were locked out. He was locked out for 10 days and he had four positive COVID results in a row. Now, five. Did you get one today? Six? Negative. They were negative results. Oh, excuse me. (laughs) Pa- I mean, positive in a good way. They're positive for us. Yes. Correct.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Negative- negative in terms of him having the disease, but positive in a good way. So, he's- he's good.
- GSGad Saad
And you've always been negative?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I've always been negative.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, good. All right. Well, good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Fortunately. Yeah, but, uh, we're good to go now. So, no issues. No one else has gotten it. It's amazing that Jamie is the first person in studio that actually tested positive. We've tested everyone. Today was my 48th test. I've been tested 48 different times. Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
Is that the invasive one where they really go up and tickle your brain or it is a less fancy one? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't- they don't have to do that anymore.
- GSGad Saad
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, they- they found it just- I mean, it doesn't feel good, but they just- they don't go all the way up. They go kinda mid-way and they just do it for 10 seconds in each nostril, and then they stick it in the machine and you get a result in 15 minutes.
- GSGad Saad
How, uh- how- how much has this whole thing affected your life? I mean, other than having to do things remotely and so on.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's affected everyone's life, right? Um-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... doing things remotely. We've- we have actually shockingly done not that many remotely. A lot of the people we brought in and just tested everybody. It's just so much better. I mean, you know, when we're face-to-face, I mean, you and I have been friends for a long time now. How many years have we been doing these things together?
- 15:00 – 30:00
Exactly. And I, I,…
- JRJoe Rogan
- GSGad Saad
Exactly. And I, I, I think I might have mentioned this story before to you on this show, but it's, it's worth repeating. Uh, it's actually a story that I discuss in the book. It relates to you. So, uh, you know, when I went to Stanford Business School several years ago, uh, to give a talk, uh, you know, as, as you, as you might imagine, it's a very, you know, uh, highfalutin, elitist environment. The, the host who took me out that evening, uh, prior to my talk, the night before my talk, uh, said, "Oh, you know, I hear you're going on Joe Rogan." I said, "Yeah, yeah, you know, we're friends, you know, love to go on Joe. It's such a great forum to spread ideas." And he was very haughty, right? He goes, "Well, you know, at Stanford, we don't support, uh, you know, doing research so that you can appear on Joe Rogan." And I said, "Well, what do you mean? You d- you don't think it's a good idea to appear on a platform that allows you to spread your ideas to 10 million people instead of writing a paper that will be read by you, your mom, two reviewers and an editor?" Uh, well, I guess he didn't like that response, but the reality is that that's the kind of elitism that you see in academia, where, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm happy to see that a growing number of academics are coming on a platform like yours, because it is insane to not take advantage of such platforms. Look, I am in the currency of creating knowledge and then spreading knowledge. Well, I could appear on Joe Rogan's podcast for five minutes and have greater impact than if I published 10 papers in the most elite scientific journals. So, so yes, I embrace those forums, because pragmatically, it's a wonderful way to have fantastic conversations, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
It, it is, and it's beautiful that brave academics are being rewarded. The people that are willing to go on my podcast and other podcasts, you know, that, you know, might get looked down upon by these s- scholars, you know, uh, th- they, they, they get rewarded by enormous audiences. And also-
- GSGad Saad
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... curious people that, you know, maybe have full-time jobs, uh, maybe didn't go to college, but are curious folks that want to explore these ideas and explore them being described by a person such as yourself, who has deeply studied them.
- GSGad Saad
Joe, do you know how many... And I, I know you know this already. I don't, I don't have to tell you how incredible your platform is. I could be walking on a beach in Bahamas, and that, that, that literally happened, by the way, where a local Bahamian will come up to me and say, "Oh my God, aren't you, didn't you appear on Joe Rogan?" So I mean, and I don't say this to, to talk about fame, but to, to demonstrate the kind of platform you've created, where I could be in a bathroom in some little town and someone's going to recognize me because I appeared on the show. And I say this not because of the recognition factor or the fame, but again, if I am in the business of discussing ideas, I should use every possible tool, whether it be your podcast, or if I create my own podcast. Any way that I can spread ideas, I'm gonna jump on it. I think a lot of academics don't do it because of an ego defensive reason, which is, they know that they may not be able to pull it off appearing on Joe Rogan, and therefore, they denigrate those who can, right? Because they've mastered one form of communication, which is, you know, the, the rigid academic paper. That, they can do well, and that's great. I mean, we, we are professors. We should be publishing academic papers. But why not try to-... tip your toes on, uh, you know, so that the public can get excited about your ideas, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I've, I've had a lot of academics on the show, and I, uh, I applaud them. I'm, I'm happy that they're willing to do that. But I, I do understand that the environment of academia, it, i- it's kind of a thought bubble, right? Like, they're all-
- GSGad Saad
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they're all echoing sort of the same ideas and reinforcing those ideas within each other. And, you know, but, in their defense, this is how it's been forever. I mean, social media and, and, i- i- uh, alternative media, like podcasts and YouTube, we're talking a decade or two. I mean, it's not that much time. I mean, this podcast is 11 years old. That's nothing.
- GSGad Saad
But doesn't it suck that academ- ... I mean, I always analogize academics to Navy SEALs, right? When we choose Navy SEALs, we're picking people who, hopefully, have athleticism, have great courage, bravery. So, shouldn't we be picking similar traits in our intellectuals? But we're not, right? So, we don't create intellectual SEALs who are willing to go in uncharted intellectual territo- uh, territories. Rather, we create, you know, tepid, uh, ch- sheepish academics who stay in their lanes, who never rock the boat. And as you and I know, the world is shaped by people who are unorthodox, right? Whether it be Sigmund Freud telling us about the unconscious mind, or Charles Darwin developing his theory of selec- you know, natural selection, or Galileo, or Socrates, the world is shaped by those who weren't fe- fence-sitters, right? You became who you are with your podcast because you decided to step out of the bubble and create something that no one else had created before, a three-hour intimate conversation with incredible guests. So, I always tell people, "Yes, you could play it safe, but no one will remember you. If you take risks, the great rewards will befall you."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, honestly, the risks, they're not that great. That's what's crazy. Like, the, the, especially this podcast, rewarding me, it's hilarious, 'cause I never, uh, uh, intended to do this in the first place.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
This is all just an accident. I started this podcast smoking pot and talking to my friends on a laptop, and it became, like, slowly but surely, a place where I could get guests and then explore things that I'm interested in. And, uh, I don't even remember how you and I first got in contact with each other. I know we have, in common, your nephew-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Ariel Helwani, who is a, uh, an MMA journalist for ESPN. And I've known Ariel for years. But, uh, other than that, how did we even get in contact with each other?
- GSGad Saad
I, I think it was through Twitter. Maybe I was communicating with Ariel or vice versa. We got onto a thread together, and that's how we first connected, and you said, "Hey, come on my show," and so on. And of course, I was very excited to come. That's, I think, how it started. It was through some, you know, connection through Ariel. I don't remember the details. But look where we are now, man. What do we have? 21, 25 hours of content between the two of us?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And when was the last time you were on? How long ago was it- has it been?
- GSGad Saad
I think it was December 2018, so almost two years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the, the podcast is probably five times, six times bigger now.
- GSGad Saad
Are you kidding me?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- GSGad Saad
A- c- ... Are y- are you able to share any metrics just so that you can make me super envious?
- JRJoe Rogan
Hundreds of millions of downloads a month.
- GSGad Saad
That is insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's insane. The weird thing is that when we went over to Spotify, it actually got bigger. Like, the, the numbers on YouTube and iTunes didn't shrink. They just, we just picked up new listeners. It's b- very bizarre. I, I expected that the numbers would drop on iTunes because we have this new platform. But since we're on both platforms now, what happened is we just gained new people on Spotify that really, maybe, were Spotify loyalists that, you know, just, uh, had always been accustomed to it, and they said, "Let me check it out." And then the numbers on Spotify just keep growing and growing. So, it's, uh, it's real weird.
- GSGad Saad
H- h- how d- how do you ... I mean, when you wake up in the morning, can you, can you believe that you've become this cultural icon that sort of moderates all these unbelievable conversations with all sorts of incredible people? I mean, isn't it incredible?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, it's incredible in that it's not credible. (laughs) It doesn't make any sense.
- GSGad Saad
You're being modest.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I-
- GSGad Saad
He's being modest.
- 30:00 – 45:00
That's so bizarre. The,…
- GSGad Saad
porn that is directed at heterosexual males. So, typically, you might think that, because men are interested in sleeping with, you know, many women, that pornography is gonna have one man sleeping with multiple women in a particular scene, right? And that's called polygyny, one man, many women. Whereas, actually this study has been done, s- scientific study, it turns out that there's a lot more what's called polyandrous depictions in porn. Polyandry is one woman with multiple men. So, why is it that porn directed to heterosexual men has a lot more-... scenes with one woman having sex with multiple men, and there, it turns out that the explanation comes from something called, uh, sperm competition hypothesis. The idea being that, uh, men, and actually males in many species, get a rise, literally, in seeing other men having sex. So for example, when you are trying to get a stud, let's say a horse or a dog, to mate with a female, you often will make him watch another male having sex, and that will get the rise out of him. And so, there are some really interesting, uh, scientific ways by which you could study a product like pornography, which of course, is one of the most, you know, m- the products that we spend the most money on.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so bizarre. The, the, so the sperm hypothesis theory, there was a b- wasn't there... Was it a book or a paper on sperm wars that was later discredited?
- GSGad Saad
Yes. Yeah, so that's actually, I tried to get that guy on my show. His name is Robin Baker. It's, you're exactly right, it's a book that came out in the '90s called Sperm Wars. And, uh, at the time, he had retired, and so he replied to me very graciously and said, "Look, I'd love to come on your show, but you know, I'm out of the whole thing, so thanks but no thanks." Now, so let me just mention what his theory was, and then what people have said since. So he argued in his book, and, uh, in several studies that he had published, that when men ejaculate, they actually have three types of sperm within their ejaculate. There is the traditional sperm that you could think of, sort of the fertilizer, right? The traditionally, you know, the head with the tail that's looking for the egg to, to fertilize. But then he argued that there are also blockers. So these are kind of malformed spermatozoa that actually don't look for the, for an egg, but rather place themselves at the entrance of the reproductive tract of a woman so that it could stop any incoming new sperm from other men. And then there are killer sperms that don't look for the egg to fertilize but look for other men's sperm to kill. Now, if that theory is correct, and, and you're exactly right that there's been contentious points about whether it is as accurate as he said or not, uh, and I think the jury is still a bit out. If the theory is correct, this basically argues that women, evolutionarily speaking, would have been extraordinarily promiscuous because sperm within a woman's tract is only viable for about 72 hours. So that if men have evolved the chemical weaponry to block other men's sperm and kill other men's sperm, that means that evolutionarily speaking, women would have been very likely to have mated with at least two guys within a 72-year, 72-hour period. Now when I mention this theory in front of a crowd, the feminists will come up to me and say, "Uh, thank you Dr. Saad, what a great, you know, lecture," because that theory supports the idea that women could be just as salacious in their sexuality as men, and that supports the feminist argument. If I propose an, an equally, if not even more sound evolutionary theory, that doesn't support the feminist narrative, "Boo, Dr. Saad, you're a Nazi, boo, boo."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
So it shows you... So, right? So it shows you what happens when you use ideology to judge the veracity of a theory. If it accords with my narrative, you're a great scientist. If it doesn't accord, you're a Nazi.
- JRJoe Rogan
And anyone that knows your past as you've described your past and your history on my podcast, the idea of calling you a Nazi becomes incredibly offensive and ridiculous.
- GSGad Saad
I, I, I... Isn't it fantastic?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
And, and I mean, it's happened many, many times, but m- but most famously was the time when, and I, and I know you've become very good friends with, uh, Jordan Peterson. Uh, Jordan and I had been invited in 2017 to speak at Ryerson University, which is a university in Toronto, and the, the title of the, the talk was, uh, The Stifling of Free Speech on University Campuses, and guess what happened to that speech?
- JRJoe Rogan
What-
- GSGad Saad
It got canceled.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you're a Nazi?
- GSGad Saad
No, no, no. Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
... so they canceled it because, you know, we're these controversial guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- GSGad Saad
And then the people who, who are the agitators who canceled us put out Facebook flyers where they said, you know, "Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are not welcome in Toronto."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
And so when I wrote and said, "Well, but I'm Lebanese Jew," that didn't alter, I was still a Neo-Nazi. And so it shows you what happens when people are completely parasitized by political tribalism. It's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not just a Lebanese Jew, a Lebanese Jew who feared for his life and fled Lebanon-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because you're a Jew.
- GSGad Saad
Isn't that amazing?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's disgusting. It's just such-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a stupid way to discredit someone's ideas instead of, uh, instead of having conversation. This is one of the w- the weirdest things about our, our current climate is that instead of engaging with people on these ideas and discussing them, they look to discredit, and they look to discredit with these disingenuous l- labels. And I-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very unfortunate, and it's, it's an anti-intellectual approach.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, it's a- it's, it's unbelievable because you know why? Because it's a... So there is something in psychology called a fast and frugal heuristic. So right, so m- most of us when we're making a decision don't necessarily sit and weigh the, all the pros and cons of, you know, a multi-attribute choice that we're making. Rather, we wanna use some simplifying decision rule to arrive at a choice. Well, to label s- your debate opponent one of these names in a sense is a ugly manifestation of a fast and frugal heuristic, right? 'Cause it takes very little cognitive effort for me to deploy it, right? I don't have to really engage the merits of your point. "You're a Nazi, shut up, we're done." Uh, and as you said, I mean, it is the height of anti-intellectualism, and by the way, it's not just...... uh, you know, the typical social media blue-haired person who does it, even academics engage in this form of anti-intellectualism. And that's what upsets me the most, that they should know better and yet they succumb to the same kind of facet- fascist strategies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's a spectrum of intellectuals as well, right? And some of 'em are, uh, simple-minded in, in many ways. I mean, although they're intelligent and although they're well-read and they're scholars, they, they still, they... I hate to use the word, but they're lazy. They, they, they-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
as an artist. I think he's a brilliant musician, but I also think that because of his ... Well, I mean, it's he's been diagnosed as being bipolar. I mean, whatever you wanna say. Uh, whatever mental issues th- he's had, I think they contribute in some ways to his art, 'cause he's so prolific. His mind is going in a million different directions all at once. And someone who is like that, but very different of course, is Elon Musk.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
His mind is going in a million different directions all at the same time as well, and his, his ability to focus on so many different subjects simultaneously is stunning. Kanye's the same way, but in a different realm. Right? His focus is on design and on rap, and on now, uh, religion. I mean, he's become very religious.
- GSGad Saad
Right. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and even politics. But he's very misunderstood. Kanye's a very misunderstood person, and I, I think that he doesn't do himself any service by calling himself a genius, and, and, uh, all the-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But all the ... That-
- GSGad Saad
All the Trump stuff. S- similar to Trump, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He's kind of ... You know, he p- he pats himself on the back and pumps himself up, and talks about his accomplishments and his financial success, and all those different ... And it ... For whatever reason, those put some people off. They don't put me off, but they d- they do put some people off. But I understand why he does it. I, I u- understand that he's, he's kind of looking to affirm that he's on the right path. Like, he ... Like, these are markers of success that he could point to. Like, you can say he's an idiot. You could say all these different things. But, hey, look at all he's accomplished. Look at what he's done. And if you listen to his music, I mean, he's brilliant. There's no-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... doubt about it. He's brilliant, he's insanely prolific, and his stuff is great. He has never put out a bad album. They're all great.
- GSGad Saad
And he's married to an Armenian w- woman.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
As is your good friend Gad Saad, so that's a commonality that we both share.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there you go. I'm a big fan of Armenians, in general.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I really am.
- GSGad Saad
Is it, is it ... Why, why is that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, yeah, I ... Well, there's been a lot of great fighters that were Armenian. Um-
- GSGad Saad
Old, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
One of ... Greatest kickboxer of all time, one of the greatest kickboxers of all time is Georgio Petrosyan, who is an Armenian who lives in Italy, who's a ... I'm a giant fan of his. And, you know, there's just been many, many fighters in the UFC that have been Armenian, and I just ... I'm a fan of, uh ... They, they embrace masculinity.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, e- in ... Even though it's, uh, the term toxic masculinity is so, uh, bandied about today, in Armenian culture, masculinity is, uh, is praised. And, uh, they're just, they're just openly masculine. You know? I l- I like it.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I like 'em.
- GSGad Saad
Y- ... You know, I receive many, many ... I don't ... You know, uh, maybe hundreds of emails from women who will sort of lament the fact that they no longer can meet a man who exhibits that kind of masculinity, right? Because what's happened now, as o- obviously you know, is men are so confused, right? Am I supposed to pursue a woman, or will I be accused of, uh, approach rape?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- GSGad Saad
If I give her a compliment, will that be considered compliment rape, right? Because all these words are now asserved, right? If you just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that ... Compliment rape is a real word?
- GSGad Saad
No, no, no. I just made that up.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
to, to make that distinction. It's very subjective. You were allowed to say, "Well, this is, this is negative. This is d- negative towards our election. This is, uh, this is promoting, uh, something that's gonna damage the Democratic Party, so we're just going to ban the Twitter account for violating terms of services." It's, it's never been clear as to what... It's still banned. That Twitter account is still banned, and they just do this based on their own personal political beliefs. It's not-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... uh, it's not about truth. It's not about, uh, the freedom of expression. Like, this i- you should be free to express the idea that the two-party system has major flaws, and one of the flaws is human beings' natural inclination towards tribalism. We're very aware of that, and if you find support within your tribe and you have, uh, steadfastedly, steadfastedly adhered to these, uh, these, these ideals that the left has or the right has, you'll be rewarded. Like, "You're a part of us. Yay. Good job, Gad," or, "Good job, Joe." Like, "You, uh, you have adopted our conglomeration of opinions, and you have stuck to them." And w- they're so predictable on both sides, right? On the left, you're supposed to be pro-choice. On the right, you're supposed to be pro-Second Amendment, and they, th- you know, we, we have a, of, a series of these different things that you have to adhere to if you're on either side of that line. And people take comfort in knowing that there's other people on their tribe that also think that way, and they, they find some, uh, some commonality in that, and they, they find this, uh, this camaraderie in their, uh, th- knowledge that this person that they're talking to has also agreed to stay within the lo- these lines.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, indeed. Look, I, I ... Quick story that recently happened to me regarding all these social media platforms. I posted on, on all my social media platform, including on LinkedIn, a post where I basically said, "Hey, you know, uh, Joe Biden might have been a parasitic nothing for the past 47 years, but just wait next year when in the 48th year he's really gonna, you know, solve diabetes and cure cancer." It was a satirical thing where I was kind of arguing that, you know, he hasn't done much throughout his public life. Uh, LinkedIn removed it because it violated their community standards of harassment and bullying.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- GSGad Saad
Well, who was I harassing and bullying, right? I mean, I was harassing and bullying a public figure who's running to become the President of the United States, but that was bullying to him. That's the world we live in. So I think guys like ... I don't know if you know these guys, and you might wanna consider if, if they're willing to come on your show to have them on, guys like Senator Josh Hawley, Senator Tom Cotton, and Ted Cruz have been trying to, you know, reform, uh, the, the legal, uh, you know, taking these social media from being, uh, you know, uh, un- y- so that they don't get the protection anymore. Their, their actual publishers, right? Uh, so that they don't get the protection of, "Hey, you can't sue us if we do stuff." Uh, so that they don't get the protection of, "Hey, you can't sue us if we do stuff." Uh, but of course most other Republicans and Democrats never wanna go after the social media platforms because the ability of all of these top players to fund the politicians, whether they are on the right or left side of the aisle, is so great that most people turn a blind eye. But I really can't see this being something that can be tenable in the future, because just like Brett Weinstein was kicked out, look, uh, the New York Post's account was removed, right? Isn't it shut down because they were running the Joe Biden story?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it was locked out, and Jack Dorsey has since stated that they have amended their policy, and if the New York Post wants to post again, they can, and then they can post the exact same story. What they have to do, however, is they have to go back to their original post, remove it. That will reinstate them, and then they can repost the exact same story, and then they'll have no issues with that whatsoever. And he said that in a conversation that he had with Ted Cruz. It's very confusing. I think that might just have to do with the way their social media platform is structured. Jack Dorsey, though, uh, I can speak from knowing him on a personal level, I, I ... He is a man that believes in free speech.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think that inside the company, he's fighting a battle. But he is personally a, a person that believes that Twitter should be open, and that it should be, it should be an open platform and he believes in free speech. I don't think that idea is ... I don't think it's embraced by the vast majority of the people that make decisions over at Twitter.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think that his idea is probably un- unpopular, but he agrees with the sentiment, the original sentiment of the internet, these, this, the, the ability to distribute information b- for all people. He thinks that all these people that have been deplatformed should have a place, and that the internet should be treated like a utility, and that it should be available to everyone. He believes that. I know he does. But I think-
- GSGad Saad
S-
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's d- very difficult when you're a CEO of something that is a publicly traded company and an enormous company that's arguably one of the three or four biggest platforms for disseminating information on the planet Earth, and was never intended d- to be that. They didn't see it coming. I mean, I'm obviously sounding like a Twitter apologist but, I really like Jack Dorsey as a person and I, I think he's, he's a very honest and he, he's a very interesting human being.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think he gets unfairly maligned but, uh, in my conversations with him, I v- I think he really does believe ... He's actually promo- proposed that there be two Twitters. A Twitter that is, um, that there is some moderation, and a Twitter that's the wild west.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
I actually ... Uh, I've had him on my show also, and, uh, just like you I mean I got the feeling that he's a real genuine, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- GSGad Saad
... g- genuine person. He really cares about the world. But I think you're exactly right that there are so many different constituencies that are pulling him in different directions, that even though, you know, he may be fully supportive of the freedom of speech that you and I would, would be, would be behind, he's kind of beholden to certain different camps. And so I agree with you. Do, do you think that there'll be eventually a regulatory mechanism that kind of sets all of these social platforms, uh, straight? Or do you think forever more we're going to be beholden to their BS?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's the only way out of this.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... someone has to step in and they have to impose First Amendment ... some protections on free speech on the internet. Right now the internet, these social media platforms are, they're thought of as private companies. They can make their own decision. You know, like maybe if you had, uh, you know, a, a party over at your house, and someone came over your house and they started saying a bunch of, uh, really, uh, offensive things, you could kick them out of your house. But that's your own house.
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a private house. But when your house is the world, and you, you get to decide what's offensive and what's not, and other people disagree, the problem is but you're, you're, you're stifling free speech, and you're stifling the ability for people to make up their own mind as to what is and what isn't offensive, what's correct and what's incorrect. And you know, it's been said a million times, I've said it a million times, but the answer to bad speech is not censorship. It's better speech. It's more accurate spe- it's like you have to win the battle of ideas. And much like a lot of these, uh, intellectuals that you were talking about that wanna silence-... uh, alternative perspectives on campus. You see the same thing on social media. People that have these ideological perspectives where they've, they've steadfast adhered to this left-wing agenda, they don't want to engage with anyone that has a disparaging opinion, or a d- a differing opinion. They don't want to. They just want to kick those people off, de-platform them, de-platform them. And they yell it out because it's been effective with people in the past. They've gotten rid of people like Milo. They've gotten rid of Gavin McInnes and Alex Jones, and a lot of these people that they've, they've canceled their voice. But, but I think by doing so, they've done themselves a disservice, whether they recognize it or not. They've done discourse a disser- a d- a disservice. They've done free speech a disservice. And they've created this tyranny of information, where they've decided that they're the ones who get to decide what gets disseminated and what doesn't. Uh, it's very dangerous.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah, you know, 10 years ago, I think it was in 2010, uh, so I started ... I, I have a column on Psychology Today where I publish these, you know, short psychology articles on all sorts of interesting topics. I haven't been writing for them as often these days. But when I started in 2008, I was a very heavy contributor. And at the time, probably the most popular blogger at Psychology Today was a, uh, evolutionary psychologist by the name of Satoshi Kanazawa, who is a, a professor at the London School of Economics in, in England. And he was a very sort of bombastic guy, very politically irreverent, used language that was perhaps at times, you know, un- unadvisable. And he had published an article where he was talking about research, not his research, he was describing someone else's research, where they had done a study looking at, uh, differences in how, you know, women across different races were perceived in terms of their beauty. And, uh, the results had not come out in a way that was politically correct, if you follow what I mean. Now, the way that he had handled that particular topic seemed maybe a bit, uh, bombastic, maybe it wasn't the right words. But right away, there was a huge call to get rid of him from s- uh, Psychology Today, which happened. But they also wanted to get him fired from his tenured position. And I had written an article, and I think I was the only one who had written a public article where ... You could still go find it on my column. Where I said, you know, purging a blogger sets a, a dangerous precedent. If Satoshi Kanazawa's words are wrong, what better punishment is there than to keep his words up there, because the light of, of the sun will forever more condemn him, right? What's the point of getting rid of him? But, of course, people didn't listen to my warnings, and now it's become common ground to get rid of anybody with whom we disagree.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I, I go back to ... Have you ever seen the, um, the, the documentary where, um, uh ... What is his name? The con- William F. Buckley?
- GSGad Saad
Oh, yes.
- 1:15:00 – 1:18:14
Trump was all in.…
- GSGad Saad
idea." What- whatever happened with that? Did, did either of their camps, uh, reach out to you or did you connect with them? What, what happened with that whole story?
- JRJoe Rogan
Trump was all in. He was all in.
- GSGad Saad
Oh, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
He, he wanted to do it. Yeah. He tweeted it. I mean, he, he wanted to do it. He contacted people that contacted me to do it. But I never reached out to the Biden people. I, I felt like if they wanted to do it, they would reach out to me. And, uh, if they did, I would've done it. Um, but I just don't think that's a good forum for him. I mean, as, as we've seen, the debates themselves, specifically the last debate, was not good for him. But what, what I would have done is, like, when he was saying that I've never said I was gonna ban fracking, Jamie would have just pulled up video of him saying-
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... "I'm gonna ban fracking." And that would have been horrible for him. It would have been much better, um, in terms of getting some clarity on what he's actually said and what he's actually done. And, you know, and then the other things about saying that his son never received any money from Russia, and that that's, that's a f- that's a lie, it's been disproven. It hasn't been disproven. He knows it hasn't been disproven, but he knows that he can say that on the air and no one's gonna call him on it. I would have stopped-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the moderation. I would have stopped the thing, right?
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I go, "Sir, we're gonna pull up these articles, and I want you to tell me what about these articles is infactual." Like, "What is, what's a lie?" And-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "Are you sure that's a ... Would you be willing to say this in court? Would y- would, would you be willing to risk perjury? Would you say this in front of a judge?" Like, if you ... 'Cause you could be in real trouble if you did that. But you could just lie in a debate and the moderators don't check you, no one says anything about it, no on Googles it. Why can't they just pull up a story? Pull up a video?
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
There's ... I mean, the, the fracking thing-
- GSGad Saad
There should be a Jamie everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
... was particularly egregious. Yeah. Well, there's only one Jamie.
- GSGad Saad
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He's right here. We're not giving him up. But someone could have done that. And, and-
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it, it would have been much better for the American public to just stop everybody in their tracks. And also, like, why do they have two minutes to answer? That, that's so antiquated. This is so ridiculous.
- GSGad Saad
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The idea that you're talking about something that literally can affect the free world, the decision of who gets control of the United States of America, who, what party is in control, and that you're gonna put some arbitrary two-minute time limit on these discussions is crazy. It's, it's so ridiculous. And also, the format is, uh, confined by these time blocks that they have, this 90-minute time block. You d- you shouldn't have a 90-minute time block. You should start it at, like, agreed-upon times, 60 minute, or, uh, 6:00 PM or whatever, whatever you wanna do, and then work it out. Like, Abraham Lincoln and some of the speeches that he gave when he was running for president, they were th- hours and hours long, and he was talking without a microphone, in, you know, like, a town square, and, uh, discussing these ideas that he had. And they would last forever. And that's how you find out what a person thinks and believes. You have to ... And, but now, with the tools that we have available, the fact that they don't use those tools during a presidential debate... Fact-check Trump. When he lies about something, pull it up. Show, show that he's not-
- GSGad Saad
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... telling the truth. Show what he actually said. Show what he actually did as opposed to what he said he was doing. Call him out on it. Call Biden out on it. Let's get to the bottom of this. But, you know, even though those tools are available, mainstream media would have to give away control. They would give away control-
Episode duration: 3:01:56
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 4ugp6FBq6E0
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome