Joe Rogan Experience #1561 - Kermit Pattison

1. 0:02 – 5:11

   How a book on human locomotion became the Ardi discovery saga

   1. KPKermit Pattison0:02

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Welcome. Thanks for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. I'm very, very fascinated by this subject.

   3. KPKermit Pattison0:18

      Well, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      So this is a, this is a long journey for you t- to have r- written this book and be i- to be involved in this project. Can you talk us through how you got involved in this?

   5. KPKermit Pattison0:31

      Sure. Uh, it was, um, completely unintentional. Uh, I had started off working on a different book on, um, the evolution of human locomotion. And, uh, I mean, just as an aside, s- humans are weird primates in a lot of ways. But one way we're weird is just we ... We're slow, we're weak, but we have this ability to walk and run long distances, which is kind of unique. So I thought, okay ... Uh, I mean, I'm not ... Certainly a lot of other people have n- noted that before, but as far as I was concerned, no one had really written the deep history of that. So I was gonna go sort of investigate the, the anthropology of where this weird human capacity came from. And, uh, you know, so I thought that the early human history, like Ardi would be this, you know, a little sliver of background before I got to the interesting stuff. Uh, but anyway, I started reading the Ardi papers, and they kind of undercut a lot of the things that I had ... the research community had taken for granted, or at least challenged them, let's say. And, um, so anyway, started talking to the people on the Ardi team, and, and then, uh, thinking, "Oh, this ... Tell me about how you found this thing. Oh, that sounds pretty interesting." And then, um ... So I thought, "Okay, well maybe Ardi, it'll ... Maybe they'll, they'll ... It'll be a page. It's more than this little line." Then, you know, little, learned a little more. "Ah, it's five pages. No, no, actually this is a whole chapter. No, this is three chapters. Oh, this, this is..." And then at some point after this agonizing time of reappraisal, I said, "You know what? This is much better than the actual story I was working on." Uh, I mean, this is a discovery that has, has been announced to the world, but it hasn't really been described in detail. And it's interesting at a whole, uh, number of different levels. I mean, there's the anatomy. It's just the exploring the natural history of the human body, literally from head to toe, because the skeleton was so remarkably complete. They had a skull, they had hands, um, they had feet. And the hands and feet were almost complete, which is, is, is unheard of. I mean, uh, you're lucky to find any skeleton at this age, and to get something that's that complete is really unusual. And so are there are other parts of the skeleton too. But, um, so it sort of became a way to sort of tickle this interest I had in like the, the natural history of the human body and human biology. Um, so that's the science of it. And then the sh- s- discovery story, the sheer adventure story was just astounding to me when I started talking to the field crew in particular, and hearing about how they ... Uh, you know, all the challenges in the field. And I go, "Oh my God." I mean, this is like collision of cultures in the Ethiopian desert. You know, the indigenous Afar people and the highland Ethiopians, and then the foreigner, you know, the Americans, the Japanese, you know, coming in and all, you know, meeting. And th- and the initial meetings were not friendly. You know what I mean? You got guys coming out, Afar guys coming out with guns and saying, you know, "Get the hell out of here." And, uh, so that part is fascinating, and then the drama of discovery, and there's bullets flying overhead, and there's this excitement of finding one little piece and another little piece. I mean, anyway, to make a long story short, um, I kind of stumbled on this, and every time I turned over a rock, there was something interesting. Um, and then it got, you know, more interesting once this whole saga kind of moved into the lab, because, uh, you know, th- there's this old cliche in, in, in the science and that is, it's not so much what you find, it's what you find out. So in other words, when you find a skeleton or something like that, the, the, the truths that it contains, the scientific revelations aren't immediately evident, you know? You look at the skeletons like, "Oh, that's ..." You know, this, that, that ... I mean, these people spend years studying this thing, measuring, you know, thinking about it. So, there was also this other detective story that sort of followed the field. There's a lab detective story that sort of followed the field detective story, um, that went along with it. And then, and of course, when this thing finally was revealed to the world, there was this, again, another clash. You know, this time a clash in the world of science, in academia about, um, people taking issue with the interpretation or denying its importance or trying to ... (laughs) tr- trying to bury the skeleton again, if you will, (laughs) you know, with inattention, uh, and, and, and denial. So, anyway, long story short, it just, uh ... You know, I didn't set out to do this, but it just sort of dawned on me that this was like a huge scientific saga that was still mostly untold.

2. 5:11 – 7:31

   What Ardi is—and why it rewrote expectations about early hominins

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:11

      We should fill people in on exactly what we're talking about. So we're talking about a skeleton that was discovered that is 1.2 million years older than Lucy? Is that correct?

   2. KPKermit Pattison5:20

      Yeah. Her skeleton is ... Yeah, it's 4.4 million years old. And-

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      The oldest known human relative.

   4. KPKermit Pattison5:27

      Uh, well, it's the oldest known skeleton. The, and actually this is an-

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      Okay.

   6. KPKermit Pattison5:31

      ... important distinction I, I should make. So, like I said before, skeletons are rare. Um, this is the oldest skeleton. There are, uh, two, three other members of the human family that are, uh, older, but the thing is, they're much more fragmentary. They're not anywhere near as complete. Like, there's one, another one from Ethiopia found by the same team that found the skeleton we're talking about. Um, that's, you know, some, some teeth, you know, a, like a toe bone, a few other broken elements of the skeleton. There's another thing-... uh, noth- another species called Orrorin are from Kenya, which is about six million years old. Again, you know, much more fragmentary some teeth. Uh, I think they got a couple, um, thigh bones, partial thigh bones, and then there's a, a skull from Chad called Sahelanthropus that's about, uh, six million, maybe seven years old depending on whose dating you believe. Uh, and that's, that's a very nice skull, but it's a head without body. So- Right. Um, so, so anyway, so there are, uh, people sometimes get confused by this. So Ardi is, is indeed the oldest skeleton. It's by far more complete than this other stuff, uh, but, uh, there are some, you know, fragmentary things that are older. And they're, they all become part of this story too. And what is the, what is the scientific controversy? Do you think it's, uh, i- i- i- is it based on real skepticism or i- i- is ego involved in this? (laughs) Like, wha- you're laughing, so. Ego? It's science. What are you talking about? It's, it's unfortunate, man. You're a theist. You don't ... No, no, no. These are, these are scientists. They're ... No, no. Yeah, yeah. There was, there's- There's a lot of egos involved in science unfortunately, right? Yeah. There's, there's a lot of egos, there's a lot of disbelief, uh, because the, the, the skeleton was so surprising in a lot of ways, and so contrary to the predictions that many people in science had made, that there was a kind of like a (explosion sound) you know, a head explode for a lot of people. Right.

3. 7:31 – 11:02

   Anatomy bombshells: upright walking, opposable toe, and non-chimp-like proportions

   1. KPKermit Pattison7:31

      So we should, we should- So why- ... break down those particular things that are different than what was expected. Yeah. Right? First of all, it walked upright. Yeah. So it, it, it walked upright. So it, it's primitive. I mean, if, if you saw- Yeah. ... you know, if, if we could go back in a time machine and look at it, you know, this, this thing, our, uh, the species name is Ardipithicus Ramidus. That's kind of a mouthful, but Ardi is the, the individual skeleton that they found, is, that's ... You know, the individual, like, like you're Joe, you're the individual and your species is homo sapiens, that's how you think about this. Ardipithicus Ramidus, species; Ardi, the individual skeleton. So, um, uh, so the interesting revelations with it is, it has upright posture, so it's standing upright, but it's still got the opposable toe. So this is a creature that was in the trees, um, you know, clearly climbing, but i- it also up- you know, appears to be upright, uh, walking with this opposable toe. So it has seem- it ... You know, everyone knows that sometime deep in the human past, there was some kind of arboreal ancestor, you know, some kind of ape. But, you know, the question has always been, well, what, what kind of ape? Does it look like a modern ape or does it look like, you know, something we've never seen before? And, um, uh, so the surprising thing about Ardi is, it's actually quite different than the living apes. Um, so y- yeah, so it's got this opposable toe, walks upright. Um- Are there, are there proportions, uh, y- chimps have shorter legs than they have arms. Are th- Yeah. Is Ardi's proportions similar to that? Uh, no. Ardi, I mean, it's certainly more ape-like than, than, than, than any of us. (laughs) Uh, but it's, uh ... There's a couple interesting things about its, its proportions. So all the other living apes have longer arms than they do legs. You know, they spent a lot of time climbing. That's, you know, that's, you know, you have long arms, long ... And they have, you know, the different proportions, but they all have that in common. They got longer forelimbs than hind limbs. Ardi was a big surprise, th- because it actually had longer legs than forelimbs. I mean, you know, it, it definitely has bigger hands, has longer arms than we do, but, uh, y- y- you know, that was a surprise, at least was to me and I think to so- at least some of the researchers. Um, and, you know, I was talking before about these kind of, um, surprises that appear after the fact. Well, that, that was one, because the bones are broken. You know, these guys on this research team, it's called the, the Middle Awash Research Project. Um, they spent a lot of time, you know, reconstructing this and then estimating, you know, how ... What are the lengths of the pieces that are not there, and then, you know, run all kinds of regressions and lot of calculations and stuff. But, uh, so that (laughs) revelation was sort of a, a delayed, you know, delayed bombshell, if you will, that it actually had, uh, these limb proportions of ... That were more like a biped. Mm. And so, uh, ours, our legs are longer. Chimps have longer arms. So is this like, does it have almost equal length arms and legs? Like ... Uh, I- Jamie actually just put a photo of it up here and I, and I'm getting a chance to take a look at it. Oh, it's fascinating. Uh- So it has long legs, almost like a person. Right. But longer arms than we do. Yeah. Yeah. Longer arms than we do for, for sure. I, I think, uh, I, I don't remember the exact number, but I, I think the calculation they did was that legs are, um, uh ... Oh, I think, I think the arms

4. 11:02 – 15:17

   The knuckle-walking debate: what Ardi implies about the last common ancestor

   1. KPKermit Pattison11:02

      ... Yeah, I wanna say it's like nine- 90-something percent. So it, it's pretty close to one to one, um, of, uh, length. But indeed, the, the arms are, uh, a bit shorter. So the surprising part was that it didn't walk at all on its knuckles? (laughs) D- being it th- that it was that old. Uh, yeah. So, so the ... Okay. So humans are ... We come from the African apes. That's pretty clear from genetics. That's been clear for a long time. Um, there are two main groups of African apes. There's, uh, gorillas and there's chimps. Now within those ... And, and chimps also includes this other species you might have heard of called bonobos, and uh, within those there's like debate about, you know, should we divide them into sub- subspecies and stuff, but you know, I, we ... Don't worry about that for now. Right. But anyway, what they all have in common is they knuckle walk. So they got these long fingers, and when they walk, you know, I mean, they, you know, do this. I mean, if you look at a video sometime, you'll see it. And, um, you know, because our two closest cousins both do that-... you know, there was a perfectly plausible theory that, um, human ancestors did it well, so we e- evolved from a knuckle walking ancestor. I mean, there was even a cover story in Nature that- that- that ti- the- the headline was al- almost that, you know, humans evolved from a knuckle walking ancestor. Uh, so, um, yeah, so that was- that was the theory, and then so here with Ardi we have a creature that's, you know, it's- it's- it's not the (laughs) last common ancestor with the African apes, but it's- it's- it's certainly getting closer. It's getting a big step closer and, uh, the people, you know, the anatomists who specialize in these things say that there's like no hint of knuckle walking. Not- th- not only was it not knuckle walking, uh, to get around, but also it has no vestige of a knuckle walking ancestry. So in other words, there's no like residual anatomy that would suggest that-

   2. JRJoe Rogan13:03

      That it ever knuckle walked.

   3. KPKermit Pattison13:05

      ... you know, its ancestors knuckle walked. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      So it was bipedal from the very early days?

   5. KPKermit Pattison13:11

      At very, very early days of the species-

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      Of its evolut- yeah, of the species' evolution.

   7. KPKermit Pattison13:16

      Well, it- it's- it's- it's bi-

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:19

      Bipedal theory.

   9. KPKermit Pattison13:19

      All you're always- what you find, you know, at that- at that- at that 4 p- you know, 4.4 million year old window.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:25

       Right.

   11. KPKermit Pattison13:25

       And that, you know, what comes before that is- is-

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       Speculation.

   13. KPKermit Pattison13:29

       ... you know. It, yeah, I mean it's, you know, these are the people that do this, you know, it's- it's intelligent speculation obviously.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:35

       Right.

   15. KPKermit Pattison13:35

       But you don't know what you haven't found. And so, um, uh, you know, now the- the, I mean there's a debate about just how long ago the last common ancestor of- of humans and chimps lived. Um, it's probably at least, you know, anywhere from 1.5 million years before Ardi to, you know, some estimates put it even further back than that. So, yeah. The- the- the- there's another school of thought that's kind of emerged that says, "Well, it still could be a knuckle walking ancestor, you know, that gave rise to humans and Ardi, but it just, all the stuff had disappeared by the time you got to- to Ardi." Anyway-

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:16

       Hm.

   17. KPKermit Pattison14:16

       ... that's- that's kind of a counter argument that we can get more into that later. I don't wanna get too esoteric on you, but, uh ...

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:21

       But it seems so fascinating that it has these really long arms, uh, but that there's no evidence whatsoever of not only knuckle walking in that species, but knuckle walking as an ancestry.

   19. KPKermit Pattison14:34

       Yeah. And that- that blew the mind of a lot of people, and- and there's- there's a school of thought, uh, of- of critic out there sort of, um ... Okay, so this thing was announced in 2009, it, you know, surprised a lot of people.

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:47

       When was it discovered? When was it discovered?

   21. KPKermit Pattison14:49

       Uh, okay. Uh, it was discovered, th- the skeleton itself was discovered in 1994.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:53

       And how did they discover it?

   23. KPKermit Pattison14:55

       And, uh ... Uh, well, I- i- I could, w- um, short answer or- or long or long ... (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:01

       Long, long. Stretch it out. I like it. I wanna hear the whole thing.

   25. KPKermit Pattison15:04

       All right. Well, I'll- I'll take you back to the- to- to the beginning of how like the whole detective story was- was framed.

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:09

       Okay. Sure.

   27. KPKermit Pattison15:10

       And then if- if- if you want me to speed up, just- just find me-

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:13

       No, no, no, no. This show's all about just letting-

   29. KPKermit Pattison15:15

       Watch for the stick. Watch for the stick.

   30. JRJoe Rogan15:16

       ... your s- I want you to have air.

5. 15:17 – 19:14

   Setting the stage in Ethiopia: Lucy’s legacy, politics, and why fossils are found where they’re found

   1. KPKermit Pattison15:17

      Okay. So, um, this group, uh- uh- uh- went to Ethiopia, um, in, they started doing this work in, uh, fir- first one, um, uh, an expedition to Ethiopia 1981. Um, they-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:35

      Specifically for this purpose of looking for ancient man?

   3. KPKermit Pattison15:38

      Yeah, they- they, I mean, they were looking for fossils, and- and they were actually, I mean, they found this fossil, but they found a lot of other stuff too, you know, and like all up and down the timeline of human la- evolution. So some- some stuff that's like recent and like, um, you know, uh, i- in the order of hundreds of thousands of years ago to stuff that's like six, you know, getting near e- you know, i- i- six million years ago, these fragments I was talking about earlier. So, they had- their research agenda is just broad, it's just like what can we find about human evolution? But anyway, one of the bur- big burning research questions at the time was what came before Lucy? Now you've probably heard about Lucy. Lucy was discovered in Ethiopia in 1974. Um, uh, it was discovered by, uh, a guy named Don Johanson, an American guy, with his assistant, uh, a guy named Tom Gray. Um, they find this thing, it turns out to be a skeleton, it's 3.2 million years old. Um, it's probably s- I think probably the be- it's fair to say it's the best known human ancestor. I mean, people who know nothing else about human origins will at least recognize the name Lucy. Uh, and there's a lot of reasons for that. Uh, you know, in terms of how it's publicized and- and et cetera, et cetera. But, um, same-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:51

      Wasn't, I'm sorry to bother you for a s- pause for a second.

   5. KPKermit Pattison16:53

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:53

      Wasn't Lucy also controversial?

   7. KPKermit Pattison16:57

      Yeah. It- it- it- it's- it's (laughs) any discovery in this field is controversial. (laughs) .

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:02

      Yeah.

   9. KPKermit Pattison17:02

      So these are, uh, these are, yeah, these are- are people all, you know, having the great, um, uh, the- the- the- the identity politics, the paleo-identity politics of humanity.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       Hm.

   11. KPKermit Pattison17:13

       So there is no- there is no easy consensus in- in this field. Um, so anyway, so Lucy is discovered, she's 3.2 million years old. I mean, this- this is a huge revelation at the time because she was, um, uh, y- you know, like- like Ardi, a skeleton, um, and, uh, you know, it took, you know, the- the old- I think the oldest skeleton at that point was a Neanderthal which was less than a million years old, so this was like a big, big deal when they find something this old. So anyway, the- the, you know, that thing is studied, um, there's popular books written about it, et cetera, et cetera, uh, from like the 1970s into the early '80s. That's the time when Lucy was sort of being intensely studied and revealed to the world. Okay. So, um, meanwhile Ethiopia is, uh, going into this period of turmoil. So this- this one, one of the big elements in this story is the difficulty of doing this kind of work in a place like Ethiopia. So right around the time that Lucy was discovered, uh-The ancient monarchy of Ethiopia, headed by the last emperor, Haile Selassie, fell. It's like a 2,000-year-old monarchy. You know, it, like, traces its roots to biblical times, you know, and, uh, you know, claims to be the descendants of King Solomon and Queen Sheba, you know. I mean, it's an ancient, ancient monarchy, but it hadn't really modernized and then it was toppled by, you know, student activists, the military, this whole kind of coalition that wanted to modernize Ethiopia. Well, what happens is a- the power is seized by, um, the military. Becomes a Marxist dictatorship. Ethiopia, this longtime ally of the Americans in the Cold War shifts to the Soviet bloc, and now it's like a frontier of the Cold War. Suddenly, like, you know, the Americans, the Europeans who were kind of welcomed as foreign researchers before are now viewed with hostility. People are thinking, you know, "Are you a CIA agent?" You know.

6. 19:14 – 22:18

   The Middle Awash ‘gold mine’: geology as a layered timeline for human evolution

   1. KPKermit Pattison19:14

      Research kind of s- shuts down for a number of years because it just becomes too dangerous. Meanwhile there's like this tribal warfare happening in the desert where they're doing this stuff. So it's, it's real- Um, but finally in 1981, things have calmed down enough that, uh, this research team is able to go back. And, uh, they go back, and they have acquired a new project area. It's big; it's like the size of Rhode Island, you know. And in, in that project area there's all kinds of, um, uh ... Like the layer cake of time, you know? It, it, I mean, so, um, anthropology depends on geology, okay? So there's like this layer cake of time, you know, where you have, you know, things that are, you know, one million, two million years old. I'm maybe giving a really simple model here.

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:02

      Right.

   3. KPKermit Pattison20:02

      And this project area's really valuable because it's a sprawling area, but they have all these different time periods exposed. So in other words there's rocks from, you know, a million years old. There's rocks that are more than, you know, as old as six million and all up and down the timeline of human evolution. So these guys go there and they see this place and they say, "Holy crap. This place is like ... It, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's a gold mine. It's a gold mine like spread out all over all this place." I mean, you, and we can s- we can learn so much about human evolution if we just spend all these years studying it, you know. So then, unfortunately, they sp- spend one season here just doing kind of reconnaissance to see what's there. Then Ethiopia shuts down again. Uh, the government says basically, uh, puts a halt to research, um, says, you know, "We're, we're ... " (laughs) They want to rewrite their antiquities laws so they can better control these foreigners who are coming to look at this stuff, and they say, "Okay, well, hopefully we'll let you back next year." Anyway, it takes, it takes nine years before they can resume research. So, um, finally this team goes back in 1990 and they're starting to, you know, go find things and learn more about this area, you know, uh, that they have in their project area. Um, and finally in 1992, um, they find a first tooth of what becomes the species of Ardipithecus. Uh, at that point- at that point they're not, they're not expecting to find a skeleton because that's just like, that's like hoping you're gonna win the lottery tomorrow, right? You buy your ticket and it's like, "Yeah, right, yeah, I'm gonna win the lottery." Yeah, sure you are. Um, so, uh, they find a tooth and then they, you know, start finding these pieces, um, and, you know, walking kilometers after kilometers, you know, day after day, and then find, you know, a few more elements. And anyway, over, over a couple of years they collect enough to realize that this is a, a new species. Uh, this is something different. But at this point it's just like few teeth, you know, a few bone fragments and stuff. But anyway, then in 1994, um, they find a skeleton and that's kind of an interesting piece, too, because it's kind of against all odds, and I can tell you how that happened if you're interested.

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:16

      Sure. Yeah, I'd love to hear it.

7. 22:18 – 22:32

   Finding Ardi (1994): crawling the desert, tiny clues, and tracking fossils uphill to the source

   1. KPKermit Pattison22:18

      Yeah. So anyway, they're, they're, they're walking along, um, and, uh, uh, I should introduce some of the, the characters here. So, um, they-

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:27

      The characters sound like a movie, by the way.

   3. KPKermit Pattison22:29

      (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:29

      Really, the way everybody lays out.

8. 22:32 – 28:11

   Characters behind the discovery: Tim White’s intensity and Ethiopia’s rising scientific leadership

   1. KPKermit Pattison22:32

      Yeah. We have- we haven't talked about the, the, the personality of it all. I'll mention, uh, some of them. Okay, so, um, one of the guys who starts in 1981 is a young rep- uh, paleoanthropologist. His name is Tim White. He is, uh, a anthropologist from the University of California Berkeley. He's a guy from the American West. He's very hard-charging, uh, har- um, strong-willed guy. I mean, profane, um, encyclopedic knowledge, and everyone who works with him will tell you that he is probably the most intense fossil hunter who they've ever, ever met. That's, that's Tim.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:11

      He would be the star of our movie.

   3. KPKermit Pattison23:14

      Well, he, he doesn't-

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:14

      He'd be the Harrison Ford character.

   5. KPKermit Pattison23:16

      Yeah. Yeah, but he would, he would, he would, he would, he would tell you that like it's ridiculous to compare him to Harrison Ford 'cause that's complete bullshit.

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:24

      (laughs)

   7. KPKermit Pattison23:24

      And, you know, because he is a f- he, he is famously skeptical. He's a, he's a, a relentless killer of ideas, you know. I mean, he's got this encyclopedic knowledge and he's got, you know, hair trigger bullshit detector, and, uh, that's why a lot of people are afraid of him. Anyway, but he's also very, very exacting in the field, and, um, a- and, you know, so when they realize that they're in such a dense, uh, that they're starting to, you know, pick up fossils, you know, he, he organizes people to basically crawl, you know, hands and knees in these areas. He lays down like these lanes in the fossil-rich areas, either, you know, carve, you know, lines in the sand with his little walking stick, or he sometimes will put down ropes, you know. And it's like, you know, "Joe, your job is to walk shoulder to shoulder next to, you know, whoever, and all 10 of you are just gonna crawl..."... this space, hands and knees, and you're gonna pick up every damn thing that you see. Even if you think it's a rock, put it in the, put it in the can, because we're not gonna know for sure until we get back and look at it more closely, and, and, and, uh, and... Anyway, so, so he's one guy. Uh, he... You know, there was a t- team working underneath him. Um, another character in this whole thing is, uh, uh, one of Tim's former students, a guy named Berhane Asfaw, who is Ethiopian. And he, uh... I mean, there's an interesting backstory with, with Berhane. He had, you know, been a student in the time of the revolution and, like a lot of other students, he was swept up in the whole political reform movement. And like a lot of other students, he was, um, horrified to see what happened when the military dictatorship came in. He was arrested, he was put in jail, he was tortured. He was lucky to survive. He told me he went into prison on a chain gang with like seven other guys, and when he was released, two years... or, or excuse me, six months later, there's only two guys alive. Um, this is a story of that generation and, uh, and, and, you know, the suffering that Ethiopia went through at that time is, uh, is, is astounding. And most Americans would find it hard to believe. But anyway, he- he's, he's a member of this, this crew. Uh, there's an- a number of other Ethiopian guys. Um, so part of the mission of this team has been, you know, obviously to find fossils, but they sort of made it a dual mission to train Africans. Uh, we can talk more about that later, but, uh, you know, if you look at a lot of the old, you know, uh, documentaries about human origins, you see people. I mean, oftentimes they're like, l- a lot of European people, you know, Americans and, and, and, you know, the... Africa's the country of human origins, but historically, at least, and, uh, for a long time, Africans were not... Har- they were hardly represented in the ranks of the scientists. Um, but anyway, so this team had made it part of their mission to train Ethiopians, not only to be, you know, field crew, but PhD scientists, and Berhane is one of those people. And another guy, uh, who actually found the first piece of Ardi, his name is Yohannes Haile-Selassie. He came, he was trained by Berhane and Tim and... So anyway, one of these days, he's out there with this group of people and they're crawling across and he finds a little bit of bone, like, uh, little hand bone. Second, uh, I think it was a second metacarpal, it's a bone like right here in your hand, and it's broken. And they say, "Great, you know, we, we got a piece." And, uh, so... You know, and at first, you know, it, it... In this fossil it's damaged, everything's broken, you know, they're... Uh, you know, the isolated tooth here, the little bone fragment there, you know. No one's expecting that if you find a little piece like that there's necessarily gonna be anything else from that skeleton that you find, because the stuff is just scattered and, you know, came from God no- eroded out of God knows where. But anyway, a few days later they go back, they do the crawl again, they start finding more pieces and then more pieces. And then, um, you know, they're sieving, which is basically like, you know, taking dirt and, uh, shaking it through a screen and then, you know, seeing what's there, and then of course a lot of rocks and all kinds of crap. But they, they start finding some bones in there and then, you know, light bulb goes on. "Oh, there's multiple elements of a skeleton here. Or multiple elements of an individual. Okay." But, you know, still it's kind of optimistic to think there may be a skeleton. But anyway, then they're, they're finding piece after piece and then when you start finding multiple pieces, then a kind of suspicion grows that there may, you may be close to the original, uh, spot where the skeleton er- came out of the ground. So anyway, then... I mean, I'll, I'll, I'm probably talking too long here, so let me just-

   8. JRJoe Rogan28:09

      No, no, you're not.

   9. KPKermit Pattison28:09

      ... short on that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan28:10

       But can, can I stop you for a second? This is all-

   11. KPKermit Pattison28:11

       Yeah.

9. 28:11 – 38:31

   Why skeletons are rare: scavengers, burial conditions, erosion timing, and brittle fossils

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:11

      I'm assuming this is all fossilized, right?

   2. KPKermit Pattison28:14

      Yeah. So this is-

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:15

      The bone?

   4. KPKermit Pattison28:15

      This is, yeah, this is fossil material. So basically what, what a fossil is, for people that know, it's just basically a bone that has turned to stone. So when stuff, you know, sits in the ground for a long time, um, you know, minerals kinda come in and, and displace the original biological material. So yeah, you could have fossil, you know, all kinds of foss- fossil stuff. I mean, usually they're, they're bones. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:38

      How long... Here's a question. How long do bones exist as bones before they become fossilized?

   6. KPKermit Pattison28:45

      I actually don't know. That's a good question.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:47

      Hmm.

   8. KPKermit Pattison28:48

      Uh, and I, I... My guess is that it probably varies a lot on the, uh, condition. You know, like just the geological condition. Uh, and so I s- I, I, I don't know, but my guess would be that that answer varies a lot depending on the sort of, the, the, uh, depositional environment, like, you know, where... And so I can't give-

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:10

      And s-

   10. KPKermit Pattison29:10

       ... can't give you a good answer.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:10

       That's okay. Jamie will find it, I'm sure. But so another question is when... Is it always that bones become fossilized or is it very specific conditions? Like do bones, for the most part, just deteriorate and be e- eaten by, you know, parasites and the environment, bugs and whatnot?

   12. KPKermit Pattison29:31

       Yeah. Yeah. So i- it's, it's pretty rare-

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       Yeah.

   14. KPKermit Pattison29:35

       ... to be lucky enough to find something like this. And the... Okay. So in that part of Africa, there are a lot of predators, you know, there's hyena. I mean, now and then. (laughs) You know, because they s- they find like, you know... Along with these fossils and things like Ardi, they also find like, you know, ancient hyenas, ancient big cats, you know.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:51

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KPKermit Pattison29:51

       All these things that were like, you know, eating e- our, our ancestors there. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:57

       Right.

   18. KPKermit Pattison29:57

       You know, so, uh, and like a lot of these fossils, you know, have like tooth marks in them and, and stuff. So yeah. So say, say something dies, a carcass lands on the ground, you know, boom. And you know, it's probably consumed by, you know, some big cat or whatever. Or I mean, one of the really ravaging things are, uh, hyenas. You know, they come in in packs and they have these really powerful jaws and they can actually chew bones down to splinters, you know. And so-... uh, you know, now, you know, if something dies, I mean after a couple of days there could just be, like, splinters left. So it's not like they just kinda clean off the skeleton for you. So anyway, they, they come in and then there's all ... There's, like, this whole f- kind of, like, chain of, of other scavengers that move in. I mean, there's a lot of ancient pigs. And believe it or not, I mean, you may think of, like, nice little pig as being, you know, this cute barnyard animal, but actually pigs are, uh, surprisingly annihilative scavengers. I mean, you, you sometimes-

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:53

       Oh, they're ruthless. They're ruthless.

   20. KPKermit Pattison30:54

       Yeah. Th- they-

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       We have an answer for you. Um, fossilize, uh, preserve remains become fossils if they reach an age of about 10,000 years.

   22. KPKermit Pattison31:03

       Okay. Well, that, that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       So it's 10,000 years, which is not that long at all.

   24. KPKermit Pattison31:06

       It also ... It comes out, it comes off the internet so we know it's, we know it's true. Right, so-

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:09

       Well, what is the, uh, the source? Nationalgeographic.org I went to for that. So National Geographic-

   26. KPKermit Pattison31:14

       Okay.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       ... is a good source.

   28. KPKermit Pattison31:15

       Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's a long time. Um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:18

       Yeah, so back to wild pigs. Yeah, wild pigs.

   30. KPKermit Pattison31:21

       Yeah. Yeah, one-
10. 38:31 – 51:19

    Excavation protocols and documentation: dental tools, no duplication, and crucial video archives

    1. JRJoe Rogan38:31

       Was there skepticism that it was all from the same individual?

    2. KPKermit Pattison38:35

       Uh, yeah. Well, that's, that is, of course, unclear when you're starting to dig, you know. Um, but, uh, you know, I think over the days and weeks as they were, you know, slowly pulling pieces out of this, uh, excavation site, um, which is a very slow process. I mean, they're, they're, I mean, literally working with, like, um, dental tools, you know?

    3. JRJoe Rogan39:01

       Mm-hmm.

    4. KPKermit Pattison39:01

       I mean, there's a lot of pictures of Tim there, and, you know, chipping away at this, and his students, you know, they're, they are using, um, like, brushes, you know, to brush, because you don't want to go in there with a trowel because-

    5. JRJoe Rogan39:11

       Right.

    6. KPKermit Pattison39:11

       ... you're gonna, you know, destroy something. So over the days and weeks, they discover there's no duplication of parts, which is a strong indication that it might be, excuse me, one individual.

    7. JRJoe Rogan39:23

       Now can I stop you again? Uh, are, are there-

    8. KPKermit Pattison39:25

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan39:25

       ... filming all this so that they can ... Like so that if there are skeptics, 'cause with anthropologists-

    10. KPKermit Pattison39:31

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan39:31

        ... and paleontologists, there are a lot of skeptics, right? So are they preparing for this and filming every step of the way?

    12. KPKermit Pattison39:38

        Uh, not every step of the way, but, uh, Tim White is a relentless record keeper. Uh, and he has this voluminous photo archive, uh, for one. He's also a r- uh, a, a relentless record keeper. And he al- you know, when the excavation started, he, they act- yeah, as you said, they did set up a video camera on a tripod and train it on the excavation area and just let it roll. And th- this is bef- you know, back in the days of, uh-

    13. JRJoe Rogan40:08

        VHS?

    14. KPKermit Pattison40:08

        ... you know, they actually had tick tape. Yeah. It was-

    15. JRJoe Rogan40:10

        Yeah.

    16. KPKermit Pattison40:10

        I don't know if it was VHS or, like, micro something. But anyway, so they're-

    17. JRJoe Rogan40:12

        Mm-hmm.

    18. KPKermit Pattison40:12

        They're filming all this stuff. So by the time I come along, you know, many, almost 20 years later, uh, Tim lets me see all this stuff. And to me-

    19. JRJoe Rogan40:22

        Mm-hmm.

    20. KPKermit Pattison40:22

        ... this was like an absolute goldmine, because I, you know, this thing that I would normally have to reconstruct, you know, after the fact, which, you know, I wouldn't be able to see the conversations, if people told me what they said, I'd, I'd have to greet that with some skepticism because how reliable is this person's memory after 20 years? I mean, I, I couldn't really be there in any way. But now they had this video tape. I'm watching while these guys are digging up these little pieces and I'm watching while Tim is, you know, exposing this smile of this ancient, you know, this ancient member of the, of the human family.

    21. JRJoe Rogan41:02

        Wow.

    22. KPKermit Pattison41:03

        And, uh, there's hours and hours of this stuff. So I can actually hear, you know, the excitement and then all the other kinda cross talk, the jokes, you know, the fact that they're playing the Grateful Dead in the background, or Bob Mar-

    23. JRJoe Rogan41:14

        (laughs)

    24. KPKermit Pattison41:14

        ... you know, or listening to the BBC, you know, all, all this stuff, you know. And so, uh, to me, you know, as, as, as a reporter, uh, that was ... That was like the equivalent of them finding the skeleton. For me, having this trove of records was, uh, uh, just, just such an astounding jackpot for me.

    25. JRJoe Rogan41:37

        Yeah. It's-

    26. KPKermit Pattison41:38

        Because it let me be there.

    27. JRJoe Rogan41:40

        Yeah, that's amazing. So how many teeth were intact? Did it have a full smile?

    28. KPKermit Pattison41:45

        Uh, the teeth, well, they, well, they were, they were in the jawbone. I, I don't remember off ... I, I shouldn't give you a number 'cause I don't, I don't remember, but they pretty much got most of the teeth of this creature. I don't know, maybe not on this one individual, but there are ... While this operation went on for years, and over the years they collected a lot of fragments from other individuals, so I'm sure they, they have pretty much all the teeth or pretty close to all the teeth. I mean, the, the number of teeth they have is, um, uh, it's, I'm, it's in the book somewhere and I, I don't remember the number, but it's, it's well over 100.

    29. JRJoe Rogan42:20

        So with Artie and the skeleton, there ... Is this, is this the only example of this particular member of this, this, the, the, you know, this evolut- this period in evolution? Or are there other-... of the similar timeframe that they found-

    30. KPKermit Pattison42:38

        Uh, other, uh, individuals?
11. 51:19 – 1:02:09

    Reconstructing Ardi in the lab: what’s missing, what took a decade, and what teeth reveal

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:19

       So they, they've got this complete skeleton. There's, there's nothing missing from Ardi?

    2. KPKermit Pattison51:25

       Oh, well, there are some things missing. Yeah. So-

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:26

       A couple small pieces.

    4. KPKermit Pattison51:27

       I mean, it's, it's, it's relatively com- I mean, by the standards of paleoanthropology it's, it's remarkably complete. And actually, the hands and the feet, which usually you don't get... Um, like Tim, Tim White, the paleoanthropologist, he calls them, you know, carnivore hors d'oeuvres, because you know, you're lying, your carcass is there.

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:42

       Oh. (laughs)

    6. KPKermit Pattison51:42

       And like, you know, the pack of hyenas comes in and like-

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:45

       Right.

    8. KPKermit Pattison51:45

       ... you know, "Here's a handout for, you know, the, the carnivore." They chew off your feet and whatever. So, uh, so it's, it's remarkably complete. But there are some pieces missing, and there are some pieces that are just present, but really damaged. Like most of the spine is not there, and it sure would be nice to have the spine because you can tell a lot about, uh, the kind of the, the design of the creature, the organization of the creature if you know how its spinal segments are, are divided. Uh, you know, the pelvis they have a lot of, but it's pretty distorted by geology. So a- anyway, there's a, there's a... And some of the limb bones, uh, are fragmentary. So, um, for example, they don't have a, a knee joint, which would... sure would be nice to have.

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:29

       Mm-hmm.

    10. KPKermit Pattison52:29

        Because you could, uh... That, that, that's like an interesting bit of data to, to figure out just how, how this creature was a biped, um. So anyway, so there are, there are certainly pieces missing, and I'm sure that, you know, science would... loved, love to have them (laughs) if they ever-

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:47

        Wait, but is Ardi on display? Is, is there... Or at least online? Is there a, a place to v- to view it?

    12. KPKermit Pattison52:54

        Uh, no. Well, the- there are some, uh, photographs of it, uh, that, you know, u- that have been published and you can see it. Uh, they're all-

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:03

        So do they lay it out on a table in the form that they think that it came in?

    14. KPKermit Pattison53:07

        Yeah. I mean, and, and the form, it, that's, uh, the, the... To reconstruct these, the skele- skeletal elements is, um, uh, is, is not terribly hard for these guys to do. I think in one case there might have been a question about one of the hand bones. You know, like, there was like a, a, a, a, a phalanx of one of the fingers and there was a question, did it go in this finger or, or another finger.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:29

        Mm-hmm.

    16. KPKermit Pattison53:30

        But, but for the most part, the... It's easy for these experts to know where an element goes in, in the skeleton. So, um, there's pictures of, of the skeleton, you know, laid out, you know, not long after discovery. Not, not in the field, but in, in the lab. Uh, there's some other parts took a long time, like the skull. I mean, that took more than 10 years to put that-

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:54

        Wow.

    18. KPKermit Pattison53:54

        ... together. Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:55

        So the, the skull came in several fragments, obviously.

    20. KPKermit Pattison53:59

        Y- e- uh, yeah. So it looks... You could, you could... Some of the pictures were published of it, but like, uh, when it came out of the ground, I think it had been like kind of like pounded down, you know, just by the f-

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:10

        Sure.

    22. KPKermit Pattison54:10

        ... force of geology. So it was, you know, like, like if you took a pile driver and just went whap, you know, and (laughs) you know, pounded the thing down. And so, um, you know, that was quite fragmentary, and so, uh, they had to reconstruct it. It was reconstructed by a, a, uh, a scientist from, um, Japan named Gen Suwa.

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:30

        Jamie put an image of it, uh, up on the screen right now. We're taking a look at it right now. It's fascinating.So it shows, like, uh, basically, like, half of it was intact or, uh, somewhere in the neighborhood of, uh-

    24. KPKermit Pattison54:41

        Right.

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:41

        ... 40% of it up, up at the top of the left side of the head.

    26. KPKermit Pattison54:45

        Yeah. And I mean-

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:45

        That's, that's amazing.

    28. KPKermit Pattison54:47

        Yeah. I mean, it's really cool what you can do. So this, this guy who reconstructed that, his name is Gen Suwa. He's from the University of Tokyo Museum and he's, he's, um, you know, very, uh, exacting scientist. I, I haven't met him personally, but I, I've met a lot of people who work with him and they s- ... Uh, he's a very unassuming guy, but he, he kinda leaves all of his colleagues in awe because of his, his acumen. Um, anyway, he, he reconstructed that with his team, uh, from-

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:12

        This is incredible.

    30. KPKermit Pattison55:13

        ... crack-
12. 1:02:09 – 1:14:59

    Why stand upright? Diet clues, tools timeline, and Lovejoy’s controversial monogamy/provisioning hypothesis

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       Now, w- we're looking at Ardi, we're talking about an animal that predates weapons, correct?

    2. KPKermit Pattison1:02:15

       Yeah, as far as we know. So the first stone tools do not appear, uh, until, well, certainly by around two and a half, 2.6 million years ago, there's stone tools. There's some things that have been found in Kenya that are older, um, that are like 3.2 or 3.3, um, that, that one is a little controversial, so we'll see how that all-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:38

       Mm-hmm.

    4. KPKermit Pattison1:02:38

       ... shakes out. But, uh, but anyway, but it, it, in either case, it's s- at least the stone tools are way after Ardi, way after Lucy. Have a-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:02:47

       So it's possible they used weapons, sticks and things along, along those lines.

    6. KPKermit Pattison1:02:52

       Yeah. So that's, that's the part-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       But, but no evidence.

    8. KPKermit Pattison1:02:55

       ... we may never know.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:02:56

       Right.

    10. KPKermit Pattison1:02:56

        Because if they're s- something like a stick that biodegrades-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

        Right.

    12. KPKermit Pattison1:02:59

        ... then who knows? Or, or throwing a rock.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:02

        Right.

    14. KPKermit Pattison1:03:03

        You know? You could, you could, uh, you, you could, um ... You know, h- how, how do we know? We won't catch him.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:03:09

        But the idea would be that they're not hunting with weapons, most likely.

    16. KPKermit Pattison1:03:15

        No. And actually, surprisingly, weapons are, arrive pretty late in human origins. Uh, I, I, I, I ... The figures in the book, and I don't want to say it now because I don't remember what it is offhand, but the early tools are things like, you know, choppers and then hand axes. But those are tools for processing food, you know? They're not ... I mean, the weapons come late. It's kind of interesting that, you know, this, the things that are identifiable weapons are-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:03:45

        Like spears and atlatls and stuff like that.

    18. KPKermit Pattison1:03:48

        Yeah. Or, or like, or, you know, particularly like lithic things, you know, that leave a, um, excuse me, li- leave a, uh, you know, that are, that are stone, that are preserved. Those, those, those come pretty late. It's an interesting question about just why weapons were developed and why, uh, why we started, uh, using them.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:06

        So do we know ... Do we have speculation as to what Ardi's diet was? Like was Ardi a herbivore?

    20. KPKermit Pattison1:04:13

        Uh, y- yeah. So they can, they can make some, uh, determinations based on a, a couple lines of evidence. Um, one is the microscop- microscopic striations in the teeth. Because when you eat something, you know, your, whatever you eat leaves kind of like a, um, scratches on, on the surface of the dental material, so they can make some inferences there. Another one is, um, using ... This gets kind of complicated, but y- y- it, it can make some inferences about what kind of plant foods they ate based on ... There's, there's, there's two kinds of plants, like c- C3 or C4, and this refers to, like, two different forms of photosynthesis. Uh, C4 plants tend to be more like open, sunny sort of things. C3 plants tend to be, you know, more shady things. I mean, this is not an absolute difference, but it's, it's an important one. But anyway, so they can make some inferences there that Ardi's diet was mostly like C3 things, which tends to be things that are in more kind of wooded areas, you know, not the open, you know, food of the grasslands and that sort of thing. I mean, it did, it did have some C4 in its diet, but it's mostly C3.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:30

        But in the-

    22. KPKermit Pattison1:05:31

        Uh-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:31

        So mostly vegetables? Is this what's believed? Or do ... Is it inferred that it's omnivorous?

    24. KPKermit Pattison1:05:37

        Uh, yeah, they think it's probably omnivorous. Uh, I've heard some speculation that maybe if they are maybe eating some-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:43

        Bugs and-

    26. KPKermit Pattison1:05:43

        You know, yeah. Stuff like that.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:45

        Mm-hmm.

    28. KPKermit Pattison1:05:46

        I mean, th- the interesting thing is, like, you can, you, you can get the C3 or C4 signature from eating the plant foods directly, but you can also get it if you eat another animal that's been eating one of those two things. So this kind of moves up through the, the food chain. Um-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:59

        Is there speculation as to like what natural selection benefit there would be for it to stand up? Like for it to be upright?

    30. KPKermit Pattison1:06:07

        Y- yeah. So this actually gets back to that monogamy theory I was telling you about, which is, is ... You know, admittedly quite controversial. But so what Owen Lovejoy theorizes, and this was presented when, with the, the serie- the announcement, the series of papers when Ardi was finally revealed to the world in 2009, um, Owen's theory is that it's, uh, monogamy is a mating strategy and, um, and that basically-Uh, so wait, let's go back to your question. So you're interested in like what ... W- they're specling- speculating or, or answering the question why, why is this creature erect?
13. 1:14:59 – 1:23:06

    What the controversy really is: lineage placement, the chimp-model challenge, and the politics of presentation

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:14:59

       Was that one of the reasons why it was treated with so much s- skepticism?

    2. KPKermit Pattison1:15:05

       Uh, because, uh, well, well, I, I mean, no one doubts the existence of the skeleton, uh, at least, you know, no, no one who should take seriously-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:13

       What do they doubt?

    4. KPKermit Pattison1:15:15

       Well, they doubt-

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:16

       Since it was so-

    6. KPKermit Pattison1:15:16

       Well, there's a couple-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:17

       There's so many-

    8. KPKermit Pattison1:15:18

       Go ahead.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:18

       ... things that are so specific, like the, the carbon dating of the, the l- upper and lower layers. The fact that you have so many bones. The fact that they're not repeating. The fact that it's, uh, clearly some sort of a primate and that you've put all this stuff together and reconstructed the skull and, I mean, what is the controversy?

    10. KPKermit Pattison1:15:38

        Uh, the controversy, uh, well there's a, there's a couple of things. I mean, you could talk for a long time about this. But, uh, I guess one point of controversy is, is it indeed a member of the human family? And, uh, you know, as I said before, you get further back in time and the things that tell you it's a member of the human family become more subtle, like these canine teeth, for example. Uh, uh, the bipedality is- is another one. But, you know, there's, you know, a great deal of skepticism in the field about, you know, there- there's people who, who, uh, I talk to who will tell you, who- who doubt that any of these sp- early sp- species that have been identified as hominins or early members of the human family, they- they doubt that any of them really are, or- or it's just unknowable. So, there's kind of like this, this, um, I don't know, almost in some people, this, this, uh, uh, almost like nihilistic view that you can really ever know. That- that's-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:40

        Hm.

    12. KPKermit Pattison1:16:40

        ... that's one. Uh, um, but I, but I, but I do think that is change- the- the- the, uh, validation of Ardi as a member of the human family, the human lineage is, um, I- I think there is a growing number of people who, uh, who are accepting it. Uh, and there's some people with a lot of out- outside people who have basically endorsed what the research team has, you know, had said. You know, whether it's a direct ancestor or like, you know, one of your extinct aunt, uncle (laughs) you know, whether, maybe it's not your grandfather, but maybe it's like your aunt, uncle, you know, that's, we- we may never know that. But, um, uh, so that, anyway, that's one point of controversy. Is it, is it in our, the- the human lineage? Uh, another one is, um, the arguments that the discovery team has made about what it reveals about the last common ancestor of humans and apes. And, uh, you know, like, for example, we were talking before about, about this model of a chimp-like common ancestor of humans and, and, uh, African apes. And, uh, you know, the- the Ardi team, who spent 15 years studying this thing before they announced it to the world, they, uh, believe and strenuously argued that the skeleton shows you that the common ancestor of humans and the African apes was in fact not like a chimp, not, nowhere near as chimp-like as everyone thought, because there's no vestige of knuckle walking. I mean, there's the whole bunch of- of things that gets into sort of like a, some anatomical, very es- esoteric anatomical stuff. So if you, if you read the book, if you're, if- if interested, 'cause it gets into, to- to- to all that. But, uh, uh, so anyway, so that's- that's part of the controversy. Uh, so, um, so there- there- there is a sort of subset of the critics who have come to accept Ardi as indeed-... a member of the human family. So they say, yeah, they're, they're right, they placed it correctly in the h- in the human family tree, but they are not yet convinced that it, it, it, that it, it, it falsifies this idea of a chimp-like ancestor. You know, their argument would be, "Well, sure in the ways that ar- Ardi may have still descended from this chimp-like ancestor, but, you know, it, uh, uh, evolved these new adaptations that sort of erased those from its anatomy." So that, that's one element of, of controversy. Uh, I mean, there's, there's, uh... You know, the great thing about this skeleton, actually, because it, because it is so complete and because it, um, was released with this huge package of this wh- a whole series of paper about, you know, the hand, the foot, you know, the, the, the pelvis, and the skull, there was, um, (sighs) a lot of fodder there for debate and disagreement, and that's what's been happening for the last 10 years.

Episode duration: 2:05:58