Joe Rogan Experience #1565 - Gary Laderman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. GLGary Laderman0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Gary.

   3. GLGary Laderman0:12

      Hey. How you doing?

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's up, man? Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.

   5. GLGary Laderman0:15

      I'm happy to be here.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Why don't you tell everybody what you do?

   7. GLGary Laderman0:19

      Well, um, for work? (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      (laughs)

   9. GLGary Laderman0:22

      Yeah. I, um, I teach at Emory University so I'm a professor. I've been, I've been there for about 25 years and I, um, I also write. I write some, some books and, um, teach a variety of classes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       But you study, like, um, what I've s- read of your study is, uh, some of, of it is on death and some of it is on drugs.

   11. GLGary Laderman0:46

       That is correct.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Those are two very heavy subjects.

   13. GLGary Laderman0:49

       Th- maybe the heaviest. Uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah. (laughs)

   15. GLGary Laderman0:52

       Well, the other course I teach is religion and sexuality.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Yeah.

   17. GLGary Laderman0:54

       So I mean, that, that can be a heavy-

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       That's another really heavy one.

   19. GLGary Laderman0:57

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       You look like a guy who would study both death and drugs, so it fits.

   21. GLGary Laderman1:02

       Well, this is the pandemic hair.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       (laughs)

   23. GLGary Laderman1:06

       I mean, really, I'm usually-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       But it, but you-

   25. GLGary Laderman1:07

       ... I'm much, I'm much more, uh, you know ... Well, I'm not really. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Have you, have you thought of doing this? Just doing the full buzz?

   27. GLGary Laderman1:13

       Uh, one of my students told me I should do-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Yeah.

   29. GLGary Laderman1:15

       ... before I came in here.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       I'm telling you, man, once you, once you do it, it's so freeing not having to go to a barber shop or a hairdresser.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. GLGary Laderman15:00

      quicker route.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Yeah.

   3. GLGary Laderman15:01

      Um, but, uh, again, there are, like with the, the monk or people who meditate, you know, all kinds of important, well, set and setting, um, thinking about, you know, what is the context in which this is taking place? And, and that's critical.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      Do you ever get pushback about the, uh, the connection between psychedelics and religion? Has anybody ever, like, challenged you on this or debated you on it?

   5. GLGary Laderman15:29

      Oh, I mean, uh, I teach.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:31

      Right.

   7. GLGary Laderman15:31

      I mean, my students don't... (laughs) Sometimes they challenge, but, uh, no, I mean, I, I, not directly and I don't really give a shit, you know. I mean, I'm at that stage of my career I'm, I'm, I'm convinced about the, again, the sort of great research possibilities and thinking across the board, uh, on... About the connection between drugs and religion.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      Now, when you're, you're teaching these classes, uh, and... Are... I'm, I'm assuming that for a lot of these kids this is the first time you're exposing them to these ideas.

   9. GLGary Laderman16:06

      Absolutely. Because, yeah, they... Many of them don't know what the study of religion is.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Right.

   11. GLGary Laderman16:12

       And, well, we have a pretty nice, uh, diverse mix of, of students in terms of their background, but most don't have a religion course other than something they've done in... If they were in Catholic school or if they studied, you know, the Bible in some form, but no, they've never seen anything like me. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       (laughs) It's funny because that's... I mean, that's a heavy responsibility, I would imagine too, because you're introducing to these kids this, these ideas that, uh, have a, a really... The, the potential for a very profound impact on the rest of their life.

   13. GLGary Laderman16:47

       Yeah. And that's, um, been something I've worried about my entire career, you know. I, uh, actually care quite a bit about, um, how these ideas are transmitted and received. Um, and, um, as we said, a lot of them are quite, um, um, sensitive, the topics that I'm trying to teach, but, um, it's an essential part, uh, I think of, of, of being a young adult and, and learning how to not just think for yourself, but to sort of re-imagine the world and, um, try to understand some of the forces that are at work, um, in, in, in your life and what's going to be coming in, in terms of your future career. And I try to make religion relevant, you know, in, in those terms. But I also, as I like to say to them, you know, I mean, my... I, I wouldn't say this before I had tenure.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       (laughs)

   15. GLGary Laderman17:45

       But, you know, my, my goal, I tell them this straight out, is to confuse the hell out of them. You know, what they think is religion is not...... the only game in town. And so, um, I'm, I'm very upfront about this sort of being an intellectual exercise, you know. You know, why are students taking my death and dying class? Well, I don't wanna know.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       Hmm.

   17. GLGary Laderman18:08

       I want it just to be purely academic, for them to, uh, encounter, uh, different understandings of de- death, different death rituals, different cultures, and, um, and, uh, shake 'em up, but not necessarily, you know, kind of turn them away from what they've been taught.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:26

       Hmm.

   19. GLGary Laderman18:26

       Um, the end result may kinda reinforce their own sort of cultural background and outlook. Um, but, but I, I'm, I'm, I'm, for myself, I'm very gratified in, in the work that I do, if you could call it work.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Hmm.

   21. GLGary Laderman18:42

       Um, and, you know, I get a great response from students. And, and I'm just, you know, uh, really pleased that I'm able to be a part of that educational process, because not to go on, but yeah, I mean, 'cause my classes are often not like their other classes, which are-

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       I'm sure.

   23. GLGary Laderman19:00

       ... you know, (laughs) political science or economics, um, or biology. And, and, m- you know, I just want 'em to be able to reflect and, and think about some of these deep things that sooner or later, you know, are gonna bite 'em in the butt.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:15

       Yeah, I, I like how you describe it too, that it's not the only game in town. The, the way I try to describe it to people is like, I'm not, I'm not a religious person, but I'm not opposed to it. And I probably was when I was younger, but I think I was just arrogant. And I think that the best way to look at religion is, it's not the whole thing, you shou- but you shouldn't throw it out. I think it's a piece.

   25. GLGary Laderman19:35

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       I think it's a piece of something that's a, a giant puzzle. And the idea of throwing it out, I, I don't think that's the way to do it. I think, I think those people, and the problem obviously is dur- uh, translations. Translation's a, a giant issue when you're taking something from ancient Hebrew and you're translating it to Latin, and to Greek and Aramaic, and all these different languages. It's like, uh, a lot is probably lost in terms of the way they express... Like, have you ever read, uh, Russian to English?

   27. GLGary Laderman20:07

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       There's a lot of-

   29. GLGary Laderman20:08

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       ... like Russian, uh, people that I follow on Twitter, and I get a huge kick out... or excuse me, on, uh, Instagram, and I get a huge kick out of pressing the translate button.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. GLGary Laderman30:00

      My sense is there's a big underground, and I know there's one here in Austin.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GLGary Laderman30:05

      'Cause I did some research here, but, um, around-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:07

      Oh, you did research? Air quotes?

   5. GLGary Laderman30:08

      I did my research, yeah. I made... Before the pandemic, I was able to get out and do some research around and talk to people who are-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:14

      Yeah.

   7. GLGary Laderman30:14

      ... who are, you know, running these kinds of-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:16

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GLGary Laderman30:17

      ... um, you know, um, psychedelic religious communities or, you know, sacred plants-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       Yeah.

   11. GLGary Laderman30:22

       ... uh, different communities that are cropping up. Washington DC, right? They just also, um-... decriminalize-

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       Yes.

   13. GLGary Laderman30:29

       ... psilocybin.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:30

       Yeah.

   15. GLGary Laderman30:31

       And there, too, I, is a thriving underground. So, uh, these are all, I think we're gonna see that underground, these subcultures really begin to surface. And, you know-

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:41

       I think so, too.

   17. GLGary Laderman30:41

       ... and, and with the war on drugs now basically almost over, um, how are we gonna think about drugs?

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       Isn't that funny?

   19. GLGary Laderman30:49

       How are we gonna respond to them?

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       The war on drugs is almost over. What a crazy war, and drugs won.

   21. GLGary Laderman30:55

       Well, well, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:57

       (laughs)

   23. GLGary Laderman30:57

       I, I mean, I've been saying this a lot lately, but like, my whole life has been lived under the war on drugs.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:01

       Yeah.

   25. GLGary Laderman31:01

       You know what I mean?

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       Yeah.

   27. GLGary Laderman31:02

       Born in the '60s.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       How old are you?

   29. GLGary Laderman31:04

       58, you know? So-

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       Yeah, I'm 53.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. GLGary Laderman45:00

      part of the, the context of all of this.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Yeah.

   3. GLGary Laderman45:03

      Where a lot of these battles are going on and people don't know where to turn or, you know, wondering, "Where am I represented in all this?" And it's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      Yeah.

   5. GLGary Laderman45:10

      ... not coming from religion or the Church and-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:12

      Right.

   7. GLGary Laderman45:12

      ... political leaders, Republicans or Democrats, so it all becomes self-focused, you know? We're all just about self-promotion and sort of-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:22

      Yeah.

   9. GLGary Laderman45:22

      ... self... You know, identity becomes the, the main, you know, uh, force in our lives, I think, for too many people.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:30

       Yeah, and hence the celebrity and then the chasing celebrity.

   11. GLGary Laderman45:33

       Yeah. Well-

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:33

       Right? This becomes the ultimate p- uh, uh, you know, level of, uh, this, this stupid game we're all playing.

   13. GLGary Laderman45:40

       Right. Well, again, for me, I... As, uh, th- someone who studies this, I try not to be judgemental, but I see, again, it's a, it's a religious system. There's a religious culture at work.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:49

       Yeah.

   15. GLGary Laderman45:49

       And it's... You know, it's, uh, um, just as, uh, uh, interesting and legitimate in my mind as Christianity.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       I don't e- Uh, I, I, I wish there was a structure that was in place that, um, mimicked the positive aspects of Church, that didn't, um, contain the dogmatic religious ideas that a lot of people find problematic. You know, like, I think there's something great about the whole, uh, community aspect of Church. You know, my friends that do go to church... Uh, I have a lot of friends that are Christian that are really good people. They're really good people, like admirable people, and I think one of the things, um, that's very admirable about their pursuit of Christianity is this community, uh, reinforcing aspect of it.

   17. GLGary Laderman46:46

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       You know, they get there together with the members of the community. Everybody's real friendly. They know that they're gonna sit there and they're gonna submit to this experience, and they're gonna, you know, read the passages, and they're gonna hear the sermon, and they're gonna... They're all gonna be together. They're gonna dress nice, they're gonna behave well-

   19. GLGary Laderman47:05

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:06

       ... and they're gonna feel good about the people that they live near and they're surrounded by, and I think we're missing that. There's so many people that I'm friends with that live in cities that don't know the person who lives in the apartment next door to them.

   21. GLGary Laderman47:17

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:17

       They've been there for 10 years, and they, they, they don't know anybody in their building. I have a buddy of mine who was telling me he lives in a building with a thousand people. He doesn't know any of them.

   23. GLGary Laderman47:24

       Yep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:24

       That's crazy.

   25. GLGary Laderman47:25

       Well-

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:26

       (laughs)

   27. GLGary Laderman47:26

       ... that's the modern world.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:26

       That's such a weird way for humans-

   29. GLGary Laderman47:28

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:28

       It's a weird way for humans to live, and I think people feel particularly lost when they don't have a real sense of community. And I can say, as a standup comedian, one of the things that we all have in common, um, particularly folks that were working out of The Comedy Store, was that there was a family aspect to it. There was a real community there. And we were very supportive of each other and embracing, physically embracing. Like, people see people that are... They, they go, "Hey, what's up?" Everybody hugs. And so for a lot of these comics who are single, who live alone, maybe don't know their neighbors, like, that was the place where they could go to that was Church.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Or anything. …

   1. GLGary Laderman1:00:00

      you know-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Or anything.

   3. GLGary Laderman1:00:00

      Or anything at all.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:01

      Yeah.

   5. GLGary Laderman1:00:02

      But, but, um, but how, you know, we think about gambling and, and how that connects to sort of larger social issues and psychological, kind of mental issues, um, is important, you know, to make sure you're not just, uh, kind of compartmentalizing the behavior-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

      Yeah.

   7. GLGary Laderman1:00:20

      ... as part of a l- you know, as part of a larger context and pattern that, that's, that are worth studying, worth looking at.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

      How much b- th- how much of a benefit is there in explaining to people the way we fall into these patterns as much as there is i- i- exploring the patterns themselves? Like, we, we have these weird d- sort of, um, vulnerabilities that are built into our system because we're-... there's benefits to getting obsessed with certain things, because those certain things can lead you to success as a hunter-gatherer-

   9. GLGary Laderman1:01:00

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       ... as a fisherman. And some- it's gonna help feed your family if your, your brain can completely lock on to in this, like, r- tenacious way of succeeding at something.

   11. GLGary Laderman1:01:10

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       If you're a hunter-gatherer and, you know, your feet hurt and you're like, "Well, I give up. (slaps leg) I can't do this."

   13. GLGary Laderman1:01:15

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:15

       "Obviously, hunting's not for me," you're gonna starve to death. Your, your children are gonna cry.

   15. GLGary Laderman1:01:19

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       It's gonna be horrible.

   17. GLGary Laderman1:01:20

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       So, there's this built-in thing, but that could be hijacked by roulette.

   19. GLGary Laderman1:01:25

       Right. Well. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       Which is so weird.

   21. GLGary Laderman1:01:27

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       That thing of, "Come on, I gotta get this. I gotta win. I gotta go," that could be hijacked by games.

   23. GLGary Laderman1:01:34

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       It could be hijacked by, by many things that we find ourselves obsessed with.

   25. GLGary Laderman1:01:38

       Right. Hijacked or also, uh, motivated by, uh, other kinds of inner dynamics as well.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:45

       Mm-hmm.

   27. GLGary Laderman1:01:45

       I mean, whether you wanna talk about Freud or some other, um, primal instincts that are at work that, um-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:52

       Yeah.

   29. GLGary Laderman1:01:52

       ... depending on the individual and the particular social setting they're in, you know, and family background can, can lead to these, you know, all-or-nothing pursuits.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:03

       But psychedelics sort of illuminates that for you.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:21:19

   Whoa. …

   1. GLGary Laderman1:15:00

      um, and, um, you know, waking up in the middle, uh, of the night with all this commotion in our house. A small San Fernando Valley house. Three bedrooms and one bath. Um, and then looking down the hallway and seeing, you know, what seemed to be, like, 50 firemen, but there couldn't have been 50 firemen, so I'm sure there were only a few, who were rushing into our bathroom where my grandfather was. And when he was going into the bath, he had a heart attack and died. And I kind of witnessed that, and they took him out of the bathroom and that was that. But what really, um, the, the... What's really vivid, um, uh, as a memory associated with this, uh, was after the death, the family rabbi came to our house. And I just remember, uh, ve- very vividly being in the backyard with him and he asked me, "Do you know what the meaning of death is?"

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:16:01

      Whoa.

   3. GLGary Laderman1:16:01

      I was, like, again, eight or nine. Like, "Wha- what? I have no, uh, no idea." And, and, uh, you know, he must have said some things, but the thing that, that really stood out and is the title of the book is him saying, "Don't think about death. Just think about the living and trying to help your father cope with his grief." And, you know, uh, I mean, I... Uh, when people ask, you know, "When did you start? How, how did you get onto the topic of death?" Um, this early memory seems to stand out. And, and I, I utterly failed in the rabbi's advice, and I think at that point really started thinking a lot about death (laughs) .

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:16:39

      Well, I don't know if the rabbi's advice was so good.

   5. GLGary Laderman1:16:41

      Well-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:16:41

      I don't think anybody should ever tell you, "Don't think about anything."

   7. GLGary Laderman1:16:44

      Uh, y- absolutely. I mean-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:46

      Uh, "Don't think about blank."

   9. GLGary Laderman1:16:48

      It's the elephant in the room.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:50

       Yeah (laughs) .

   11. GLGary Laderman1:16:50

       Don't think about the elephant, you know. Uh-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:52

       But it's... I just don't think it's ever good advice.

   13. GLGary Laderman1:16:54

       Well, I've come around. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:56

       Yeah.

   15. GLGary Laderman1:16:56

       I mean, again, I, I, I, uh, I had a lovely rabbi (laughs) , you know, and a lovely, uh, experience in the temple, even though after my bar mitzvah I never looked back, you know (laughs) .

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:17:06

       How, uh, how old were you when your grandfather died?

   17. GLGary Laderman1:17:08

       I was about eight or so. Eight or nine.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:17:09

       Eight. Eight, yeah. Well, that's something you would say to an eight-year-old.

   19. GLGary Laderman1:17:12

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:17:12

       But again, it's just... It's not how people, um, h- how people's brains work.

   21. GLGary Laderman1:17:17

       Well, and it's not f- you know, being fair to the, to the reality we're, we're all going to have to face.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:24

       Right. For sure.

   23. GLGary Laderman1:17:25

       I mean, my death is just integrated and a part of life, and, uh, I think thinking about it and, um, trying to figure it out is, uh, is, is valuable.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:34

       I think, um, ultimately, uh, we've been given a bunch of crude tools to deal with an insanely complex issue.

   25. GLGary Laderman1:17:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:42

       This finite life form that we, uh, find ourselves inhabiting. Our consciousness is trapped in this finite thing and, uh, and we've been given these very crude tools-

   27. GLGary Laderman1:17:53

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:54

       ... for, uh, navigating.

   29. GLGary Laderman1:17:56

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:56

       And for coping and for just, uh, just the way we interact with each other about these, these very complex subjects we've get be- we get very simplistic, very, uh, just empty phrases.

Episode duration: 2:23:10