Joe Rogan Experience #1565 - Gary Laderman

1. 0:00 – 1:29

   Gary Laderman’s work: religion, death, drugs, and sexuality

   1. GLGary Laderman0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Gary.

   3. GLGary Laderman0:12

      Hey. How you doing?

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's up, man? Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.

   5. GLGary Laderman0:15

      I'm happy to be here.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Why don't you tell everybody what you do?

   7. GLGary Laderman0:19

      Well, um, for work? (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      (laughs)

   9. GLGary Laderman0:22

      Yeah. I, um, I teach at Emory University so I'm a professor. I've been, I've been there for about 25 years and I, um, I also write. I write some, some books and, um, teach a variety of classes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       But you study, like, um, what I've s- read of your study is, uh, some of, of it is on death and some of it is on drugs.

   11. GLGary Laderman0:46

       That is correct.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Those are two very heavy subjects.

   13. GLGary Laderman0:49

       Th- maybe the heaviest. Uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah. (laughs)

   15. GLGary Laderman0:52

       Well, the other course I teach is religion and sexuality.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Yeah.

   17. GLGary Laderman0:54

       So I mean, that, that can be a heavy-

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       That's another really heavy one.

   19. GLGary Laderman0:57

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       You look like a guy who would study both death and drugs, so it fits.

   21. GLGary Laderman1:02

       Well, this is the pandemic hair.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       (laughs)

   23. GLGary Laderman1:06

       I mean, really, I'm usually-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       But it, but you-

   25. GLGary Laderman1:07

       ... I'm much, I'm much more, uh, you know ... Well, I'm not really. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Have you, have you thought of doing this? Just doing the full buzz?

   27. GLGary Laderman1:13

       Uh, one of my students told me I should do-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Yeah.

   29. GLGary Laderman1:15

       ... before I came in here.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       I'm telling you, man, once you, once you do it, it's so freeing not having to go to a barber shop or a hairdresser.
2. 1:29 – 2:42

   Why drugs belong in religious studies (from caffeine to psychedelics)

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:29

      ... that you study. Um, how did you get involved in ... What, w- when, when you talk about drugs, like, you, uh, y- you studied all sorts of psychedelic drugs but also common drugs like, like caffeine, like we were talking about before. I was telling you before that I make some ridiculous French press coffee with far too much coffee in it and it, it's become a bit of a problem lately. (laughs)

   2. GLGary Laderman1:50

      Well, uh, but it's probably keeping you healthy and keeping you going-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      I don't- I don't know if it is.

   4. GLGary Laderman1:55

      ... and, uh, well-

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:55

      I don't know. At the end of the day I'm really tired and-

   6. GLGary Laderman1:58

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      ... I'm not usually really tired and I think it's because I've been on speed all day.

   8. GLGary Laderman2:01

      Mm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:02

      (laughs)

   10. GLGary Laderman2:03

       (laughs) It could tire you out, uh, that's for sure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:05

       Yeah.

   12. GLGary Laderman2:05

       Um, but yeah, I mean, my interest in, in, in studying the connection between religion and drugs, I'm in a department of religion at Emory, um, uh, really spans the spectrum so I'm interested, yeah, for sure, in psychedelics but also, as you're saying, in the more, um, ordinary, uh, psychoactive drugs that bring order to our lives and, um, you know, allow us to tap into our true identity, um, maintain, um, some semblance of stability in our lives. You know, things that, y- religion often can do.

3. 2:42 – 4:08

   Psychedelics, early Christianity theories, and historical ritual use

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:42

      It's, uh, the subject of religion and drugs is, uh, it's really fascinating to me but it's something that I never even really considered until, you know, 10, 15 years ago. And, um, I, uh, was introduced to Jack Herer and he was, uh ... Do you know who he is?

   2. GLGary Laderman2:58

      Yep.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      The cannabis advocate?

   4. GLGary Laderman2:59

      Yep.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:59

      Recently deceased. Not, not so recently anymore.

   6. GLGary Laderman3:02

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:02

      Um, great guy, but wrote, was writing a book about the connection between, um, m- uh, psychedelics, particularly psilocybin and, um, and religion and Christianity. And he had this amazing collection of artwork that connected, um, like ancient Christian artwork with, uh, a lot of these dancing naked fig- figures that look like they were in ecstasy shrouded by this translucent mushroom.

   8. GLGary Laderman3:30

      Hm. Yeah. Though, there, that's not uncommon.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      Yeah.

   10. GLGary Laderman3:33

       There are a lot of theories out there that connect, um, uh, early Christianity especially to different kinds of, um, h- you know, hallucinogenics, psycho- psychedelic drugs of some form, um, but I think the, the connections are much more widespread. Um, uh, people have been using psychoactive substances for religious ritual, for religious experience, for forms of transcendence and, and journey, um, in all kinds of different cultural settings and, and through history.

4. 4:08 – 7:07

   LSD experiences, ‘spiritual but not religious,’ and the rise of the ‘nones’

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:08

      What got you into the subject?

   2. GLGary Laderman4:12

      Well, um, uh, I've been interested in, (laughs) you know, in, in the topic of drugs for, for a while, um, but I think what really, m- you know, led me to see this would be quite a, um, a fruitful topic to pursue in terms of research was, uh, I wrote a short little, um, essay on LSD and religion. Talked about my own experience as a young man, uh, tripping and, um, talking about the ways in which when I had that experience in the, um, late '70s, uh, and people more and more were, you know, uh, enjoying psychedelics coming out of the decade of the '60s. Um, I started to, to see that they would often use words like spiritual or mystical to describe their experiences and to talk about how their religious views are, are being reoriented. Um, and I saw that in my own experience and, and wrote about that as a way to talk about what is probably the most significant shift in religion in America, and that's the rise of the nons, those who don't affiliate with any religion, um, and who many who claim to be spiritual but not religious. And I, and I wanna tie that back to, um, people's experiences with psychedelics.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:41

      There's a lot of people that are in the nons that, uh, d- don't have any experience with psychedelic. They just ... Psychedelics. They just seem to want-... to have, like, a, uh, a deeper meaning to life, you know? And they'll, they'll say, "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual."

   4. GLGary Laderman5:58

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:58

      And a lot of people get really annoyed when people talk like that. (laughs)

   6. GLGary Laderman6:01

      Yeah. Well, it can be annoying. Um, and, um, also, uh, you know, I think as you say, it's very much becoming quite common-

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:11

      Yeah.

   8. GLGary Laderman6:11

      ... for people to identify in that way. And that's also about a very strong kind of negative, um, uh, understanding of traditional religion, institutional religion, and so on.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:22

      Yeah. I, I feel like for a lot of these people that don't have, uh, psychedelic experiences that, uh, are spiritual, that sort of dismiss religion, I, I, I, I, I, uh, I never wanna tell people to do psychedelics, but I feel like if they did it, they would relax a little with this idea that they really have an understanding of what happens when you die. I think they would really let that go. Most people would.

   10. GLGary Laderman6:51

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:51

       You'd go, "Well, I didn't know this was real." And this is around- and this has been around for thousands of years, psychedelics. And then you, you have these experiences that are so profound.

   12. GLGary Laderman7:00

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:01

       And you're like, "Okay, maybe I'm just full of shit and I've been posing-

   14. GLGary Laderman7:05

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       ... this whole time."

   16. GLGary Laderman7:06

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:06

       Yeah.

5. 7:07 – 11:41

   Therapy research, legalization momentum, and redefining the word ‘drugs’

   1. GLGary Laderman7:07

      Right. Well, I think, again, that's, um... it's not just, uh, you who, who have these views. What we're seeing is a lot of medical research around psychedelics also were pointing to the same thing: a decrease in fear of death.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GLGary Laderman7:22

      Um, people's, um, sense of compassion and love, you know, really can blossom. Uh, people's lives are, are transformed in a lot of these more, uh, controlled medical studies with, you know, with pe- people who are taking, um, psilocybin or MDMA.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:40

      Yeah.

   5. GLGary Laderman7:40

      But, but the main focus of all that, of course, is, is, is the therapeutic benefits. But, you know, as we're saying, it's, it's al- it's all about spirituality, and, and those therapeutic benefits can't be separated out from a kind of spiritual sense of, of that experience.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:58

      It gives me a little bit of hope that in this time of, of great strife and struggle, and especially, uh, in terms of the way, uh, human beings are, are dealing with each other, you know, that this is, this is a time where people are also rediscovering psychedelics in record numbers. And they're, they're looking for some sort of a way to make sense of this life because, uh, y- you know, we're obviously in some strange transitional moment in history where, uh, our confidence in systems and government and, and even education and cert- certainly news and media is eroding at an unprecedented rate. But it's also, at the same time, all drugs are now legal in Oregon.

   7. GLGary Laderman8:44

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:44

      You know, like, these things are happening where people go, "You know what? Come on." Colorado's like, "Mushrooms. Go ahead, do mushrooms."

   9. GLGary Laderman8:49

      Right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:50

       And, uh, you know, God bless Texas. They fucking need all that shit right here.

   11. GLGary Laderman8:54

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:54

       And... (laughs)

   13. GLGary Laderman8:55

       Georgia too.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:55

       Yeah. I mean, all these places. Ev- the whole world needs it.

   15. GLGary Laderman8:58

       Well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:59

       They need the option.

   17. GLGary Laderman9:00

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       You know, 'cause y- the i- the idea that human beings are somehow or another preventing other human beings from having non-lethal experiences that have proven to be incredibly transcendent-

   19. GLGary Laderman9:13

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:13

       ... and change people's lives for the better just en masse. Like, if you t- see the John Hopkins study-

   21. GLGary Laderman9:19

       Sure.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       ... the, the people that one psilocybin experience, they, they, they mo- the majority of them listed it as the most profound experience of their life.

   23. GLGary Laderman9:27

       Right, right. And non-addictive.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:29

       Yes.

   25. GLGary Laderman9:30

       I mean, what, you know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan9:30

       And non-lethal. I mean, an LD50 is-

   27. GLGary Laderman9:32

       And non-lethal.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:32

       ... like, what? You have to eat like two pounds of it or something crazy.

   29. GLGary Laderman9:35

       Right. Right. And, and we know that the stories of addiction and a lot of the dangers are so overblown.

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:41

       Yeah.
6. 11:41 – 15:18

   Non-drug altered states: breathing, yoga, near-death experiences, and set/setting

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:41

      Have you ever experimented with, uh, holotropic breathing or any of the non-psychedelic methods of achieving these certain states of consciousness?

   2. GLGary Laderman11:52

      N- no.No, I mean, no, but, um, I think they're important as well as-

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:56

      Yeah.

   4. GLGary Laderman11:57

      ... people achieving a mystical state through non-psychedelic means. So this is another, uh, avenue, um, in thinking about the importance of those mystical states, um, and, and how people get there. Um, but also I would say, as you said, it's what are the results? What kind of transformations are, are made in people's lives? And I think what we're seeing is whether it's a psychedelic-induced experience or, or non-psychodelic, it's... There are lots of similarities.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:29

      Yeah, I mean a lot of people get i- get there through near-death experience.

   6. GLGary Laderman12:33

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:33

      There's a lot of people... Well, this is another thing where the mind is capable of producing psychedelic compounds and in near-death experiences, although it's very difficult to measure, right?

   8. GLGary Laderman12:47

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:47

      Because you would actually have to open up someone's brain while they're in the middle of a near-death experience, which is probably not the healthiest thing for someone who almost died.

   10. GLGary Laderman12:54

       Yeah. No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:54

       But that's... As far as we know, that's the best way to measure it now, but these people who experience, uh, these, uh, near-death moments have these incredible profound visions and many people think that what's happening is some sort of endogenous dump of psychedelic chemicals. We know the brain is capable of making the most potent one psychedelics, uh, in terms of like, you know, what happens and how they do it, it's still a bit of a mystery they're trying to solve but...

   12. GLGary Laderman13:23

       Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that connection's fascinating.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:26

       Yeah.

   14. GLGary Laderman13:26

       And, and, um, as I mentioned or, um, you may know, I teach a death and dying course as well.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       Yes.

   16. GLGary Laderman13:32

       And so near-death experiences are, are, are pretty much an important part of that class. And, uh, the kinds of, of research and findings that are, are beginning to appear in terms of looking at those connections are fascinating, um, and tie into this question of, of what is our relationship to death? How do we understand, you know, the reality of death in our lives? And, and, you know, what, you know, what are our thoughts about the afterlife? Or if there is one. Um, that gets tied into a lot, you know, how people respond to this research, you know, how they, um, are engaged with it and how they're compelled by it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:11

       And there's a lot of folks that apparently can reach like some pretty intense, um, states of consciousness through yoga, uh, through different styles of yoga and different styles of breathing. Um, but there's, there's a really funny quote by Terence McKenna where, uh, the Buddha met this monk who, uh, who said, "I've practiced the city of levitation for the last 20 years and, uh, I've achieved the ability to walk on water." And, uh, the Buddha says, "Yeah, but the fairy's only a nickel."

   18. GLGary Laderman14:44

       Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       (laughs)

   20. GLGary Laderman14:46

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:47

       It's like-

   22. GLGary Laderman14:47

       So what do you-

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:48

       ... you can, you can really meditate alone in darkness forever or you can just take mushrooms. You, you get there in an hour.

   24. GLGary Laderman14:56

       (laughs) Right. Well...

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:56

       Yeah.

   26. GLGary Laderman14:57

       I, I think for many of us, we take the, the, the quicker route.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:01

       Yeah.

   28. GLGary Laderman15:01

       Um, but, uh, again, there are, like with the, the monk or people who meditate, you know, all kinds of important, well, set and setting, um, thinking about, you know, what is the context in which this is taking place? And, and that's critical.

7. 15:18 – 21:53

   Teaching controversial topics: challenging students and the role of interpretation

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      Do you ever get pushback about the, uh, the connection between psychedelics and religion? Has anybody ever, like, challenged you on this or debated you on it?

   2. GLGary Laderman15:29

      Oh, I mean, uh, I teach.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:31

      Right.

   4. GLGary Laderman15:31

      I mean, my students don't... (laughs) Sometimes they challenge, but, uh, no, I mean, I, I, not directly and I don't really give a shit, you know. I mean, I'm at that stage of my career I'm, I'm, I'm convinced about the, again, the sort of great research possibilities and thinking across the board, uh, on... About the connection between drugs and religion.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:55

      Now, when you're, you're teaching these classes, uh, and... Are... I'm, I'm assuming that for a lot of these kids this is the first time you're exposing them to these ideas.

   6. GLGary Laderman16:06

      Absolutely. Because, yeah, they... Many of them don't know what the study of religion is.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      Right.

   8. GLGary Laderman16:12

      And, well, we have a pretty nice, uh, diverse mix of, of students in terms of their background, but most don't have a religion course other than something they've done in... If they were in Catholic school or if they studied, you know, the Bible in some form, but no, they've never seen anything like me. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:30

      (laughs) It's funny because that's... I mean, that's a heavy responsibility, I would imagine too, because you're introducing to these kids this, these ideas that, uh, have a, a really... The, the potential for a very profound impact on the rest of their life.

   10. GLGary Laderman16:47

       Yeah. And that's, um, been something I've worried about my entire career, you know. I, uh, actually care quite a bit about, um, how these ideas are transmitted and received. Um, and, um, as we said, a lot of them are quite, um, um, sensitive, the topics that I'm trying to teach, but, um, it's an essential part, uh, I think of, of, of being a young adult and, and learning how to not just think for yourself, but to sort of re-imagine the world and, um, try to understand some of the forces that are at work, um, in, in, in your life and what's going to be coming in, in terms of your future career. And I try to make religion relevant, you know, in, in those terms. But I also, as I like to say to them, you know, I mean, my... I, I wouldn't say this before I had tenure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       (laughs)

   12. GLGary Laderman17:45

       But, you know, my, my goal, I tell them this straight out, is to confuse the hell out of them. You know, what they think is religion is not...... the only game in town. And so, um, I'm, I'm very upfront about this sort of being an intellectual exercise, you know. You know, why are students taking my death and dying class? Well, I don't wanna know.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       Hmm.

   14. GLGary Laderman18:08

       I want it just to be purely academic, for them to, uh, encounter, uh, different understandings of de- death, different death rituals, different cultures, and, um, and, uh, shake 'em up, but not necessarily, you know, kind of turn them away from what they've been taught.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:26

       Hmm.

   16. GLGary Laderman18:26

       Um, the end result may kinda reinforce their own sort of cultural background and outlook. Um, but, but I, I'm, I'm, I'm, for myself, I'm very gratified in, in the work that I do, if you could call it work.

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       Hmm.

   18. GLGary Laderman18:42

       Um, and, you know, I get a great response from students. And, and I'm just, you know, uh, really pleased that I'm able to be a part of that educational process, because not to go on, but yeah, I mean, 'cause my classes are often not like their other classes, which are-

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       I'm sure.

   20. GLGary Laderman19:00

       ... you know, (laughs) political science or economics, um, or biology. And, and, m- you know, I just want 'em to be able to reflect and, and think about some of these deep things that sooner or later, you know, are gonna bite 'em in the butt.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:15

       Yeah, I, I like how you describe it too, that it's not the only game in town. The, the way I try to describe it to people is like, I'm not, I'm not a religious person, but I'm not opposed to it. And I probably was when I was younger, but I think I was just arrogant. And I think that the best way to look at religion is, it's not the whole thing, you shou- but you shouldn't throw it out. I think it's a piece.

   22. GLGary Laderman19:35

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:36

       I think it's a piece of something that's a, a giant puzzle. And the idea of throwing it out, I, I don't think that's the way to do it. I think, I think those people, and the problem obviously is dur- uh, translations. Translation's a, a giant issue when you're taking something from ancient Hebrew and you're translating it to Latin, and to Greek and Aramaic, and all these different languages. It's like, uh, a lot is probably lost in terms of the way they express... Like, have you ever read, uh, Russian to English?

   24. GLGary Laderman20:07

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       There's a lot of-

   26. GLGary Laderman20:08

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       ... like Russian, uh, people that I follow on Twitter, and I get a huge kick out... or excuse me, on, uh, Instagram, and I get a huge kick out of pressing the translate button.

   28. GLGary Laderman20:16

       Oh, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:17

       'Cause like, like to try to break down-

   30. GLGary Laderman20:19

       Right.
8. 21:53 – 28:23

   Religion beyond churches: celebrity worship, capitalism, and social-media signaling

   1. GLGary Laderman21:53

      ... as societies change over time. So, um, you know, the act of interpretation is very much obviously a part of, of the study of religion and, and looking at how religions change and transform. Um, for me, I'll just, I'll say I'm, I'm so not interested in Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or Islam, you know, the conventional containers of what we think are the world's religions are, you know, very, um, problematic to say the least. But my, my interested- my interest is more in the sort of intersections of religion and culture, where people might not recognize their being religious, even though I would try to make the argument that they are, so-

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:38

      Like how so?

   3. GLGary Laderman22:39

      Well, I mean, uh, I've, I've written a book called Sacred Matters that looks at these different, um, kind of arenas, uh, where, where religious life, um, can be found in, in cultural forms of activity. So, um, like celebrity worship I would call a religious culture that has systems of meaning, different kinds of rituals, um, possibilities for, um, discovering your true self, a whole kind of value system that can be tied up in some sort of-

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:12

      That's interesting, celebrity worship as a form of religion. I've always thought of it as just hijacking the human reward system, because, uh-

   5. GLGary Laderman23:21

      Well, it does-

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:21

      ... if we lived in a tribe of people, a small tribe, and there was one, uh, great leader, you know, the battle-scarred leader who's seen it all and can give us the information, and he was the one talking, we would listen. That, that would be a, a, a, a person of great importance, and we'd all gather around and listen. But when you see Brad Pitt in a movie screen and his face is 30 feet high and there's music playing when he talks and a team of writers have carefully constructed all of his words in this perfect sentence, and you know, it's just like, it's so moving and inspiring, and then we see him in real life, "Oh my God, it's really you." But meanwhile he hasn't really done anything other than pretend-

   7. GLGary Laderman24:00

      (laughs) Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:00

      ... you know what I mean? He's been a preten-

   9. GLGary Laderman24:01

      Well-

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:01

       ... I mean, a great entertainer, but-

   11. GLGary Laderman24:02

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:03

       ... he's g- uh, given us some wonderful distractions, but-... it's not that he's led us through battle.

   13. GLGary Laderman24:09

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:09

       It's not that he's, he's figured out how to find the food and the water. You know, this is not what it is, but in our, our hijacked human reward system, we treat him as though he is a great leader.

   15. GLGary Laderman24:21

       Yeah. Or, or even someone like Oprah, I mean, who's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan24:24

       Mm-hmm.

   17. GLGary Laderman24:24

       ... more clearly, you know, in that sort of, um, strange, uh, middle ground between-

   18. JRJoe Rogan24:29

       Yeah.

   19. GLGary Laderman24:29

       ... celebrity and spiritual, um, leader of some kind. So, you know, uh, obviously it's gonna vary depending on what celebrity you're talking about, but, you know, just in terms of projections, our imagination, where we invest, um, you know, our energies.

   20. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       Yeah.

   21. GLGary Laderman24:46

       So, you know, celebrity's big. But again, I'm- I like to talk about, uh, other things, uh, you know, as well, um-

   22. JRJoe Rogan24:52

       Mm-hmm.

   23. GLGary Laderman24:52

       ... that, uh, whether we're talking about politics or, um, consumer culture or things, um, around medicine, that there are religious qualities-

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:03

       Yes.

   25. GLGary Laderman25:03

       ... that don't have to do with the Bible or with Mohammed or something.

   26. JRJoe Rogan25:08

       Right. There's religious qualities in that, uh, there's these very rigid ideologies that are treated like religions that you have to follow, and there's also, um, signs that people will hold up that they're complying and they're along with this ideology. Um, one of them that I talk about a lot is people taking photos with masks on on Twitter for their, their profile picture.

   27. GLGary Laderman25:32

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:32

       Like, I know what you're doing.

   29. GLGary Laderman25:34

       Right. Right. Well-

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:35

       Like, y- we all know what we're doing.
9. 28:23 – 55:33

   Underground psychedelic communities, ‘war on drugs’ history, and CIA/LSD scandals

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:23

      You know, there are churches now that are incorporating psilocybin into their rituals. Um, I think one particular in Oregon.

   2. GLGary Laderman28:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:31

      See if you can find that. There's a church in Oregon that is doing, um... What am I, Oregon spokesperson today? (laughs)

   4. GLGary Laderman28:38

      Well, it's a big, uh, you know, that, that's big news and big changes for sure.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:42

      Yeah.

   6. GLGary Laderman28:42

      Uh, we're all gonna be watching that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:44

      Well, the idea is that that's what it used to be all about, you know? If you go back to... It's a very controversial book, but John Marco Allegro's The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross-

   8. GLGary Laderman28:53

      Sure.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:54

      ... is all about, uh, consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and that he believes that that was really what, uh, the Bible was about. It was about hiding these stories from the Romans when they were captured.

   10. GLGary Laderman29:07

       Yeah, lots of theories that-

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:09

       Yeah.

   12. GLGary Laderman29:09

       ... even with, um, Judaism too-

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:11

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GLGary Laderman29:11

       ... and Moses, you know? There's just all, there are all kinds of ways people have tried to, um, make the connection. Oh, yeah, there it is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:17

       Legally offering psilocybin mushroom therapy through ceremony.

   16. GLGary Laderman29:21

       Oh.

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:21

       Ahhh. (laughs)

   18. GLGary Laderman29:22

       Look, but look. There's man-

   19. JRJoe Rogan29:24

       Yeah.

   20. GLGary Laderman29:25

       That, that's, uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:25

       What is the name of this place?

   22. JVJamie Vernon29:27

       I think it's Sacred... It says, well-

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:29

       Sacred Heart Medicine-

   24. GLGary Laderman29:30

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:30

       ... .us? Is that the name of the church?

   26. JVJamie Vernon29:33

       No, no.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:33

       No?

   28. JVJamie Vernon29:33

       I mean, it says Oregon...

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       Yeah.

   30. JVJamie Vernon29:36

       ... State Non-profit.
10. 55:33 – 1:05:08

    Addiction as a human pattern: gambling, social media, and psychedelics as ‘reset’

    1. JRJoe Rogan55:33

       They're getting back at us with the casinos.

    2. GLGary Laderman55:35

       Well, uh, that's-

    3. JRJoe Rogan55:36

       That's where they're going. (laughs)

    4. GLGary Laderman55:36

       ... I've h- I've heard that before, but uh-

    5. JRJoe Rogan55:38

       It's not us. I, I should say-

    6. GLGary Laderman55:39

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan55:39

       ... clearly. I'm, I'm a child of immigrants.

    8. GLGary Laderman55:41

       Well, well, I mean, you know, this is a, another development-

    9. JRJoe Rogan55:45

       We didn't do that. Yeah.

    10. GLGary Laderman55:45

        ... that, that's, you know, kind of ironic in some ways.

    11. JRJoe Rogan55:49

        Uh, no, it is. It is. It's, it's bizarre that they're getting wealthy off of, uh, this weird vice.

    12. GLGary Laderman55:54

        Oh, well, another addiction. (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan55:55

        Yeah, another addition.

    14. GLGary Laderman55:56

        It's, it's gambling, a drug, uh...

    15. JRJoe Rogan55:58

        Yeah. Is it? Do you think?

    16. GLGary Laderman55:59

        Well, you know, it's like, uh, I... We had a great class on addiction.

    17. JRJoe Rogan56:04

        Have you ever been around gambling addicts? Like, real gambling-

    18. GLGary Laderman56:07

        No. No. I mean-

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:07

        I've been around a bunch of them.

    20. GLGary Laderman56:08

        I'm s- well, I imagine.

    21. JRJoe Rogan56:09

        It's a drug. It's a drug.

    22. GLGary Laderman56:10

        That's what I'm wondering, you know?

    23. JRJoe Rogan56:11

        Oh my God. I'd say it was-

    24. GLGary Laderman56:13

        Something's going on in the brain too that's gonna be, you know, where you're gonna be seeing some, some kinds of activities that, you know, will lead people to continue on in the behavior.

    25. JRJoe Rogan56:22

        Yeah, it's, um, for sure a pattern that people fall into. Like, my grandmother was addicted to playing the numbers.

    26. GLGary Laderman56:29

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan56:29

        Um, I r- I remember she was always losing, and she was always, like, saying, "Oh, I was supposed to bet this one, and I bet that one." Like, that was the whole deal with my grandmother.

    28. GLGary Laderman56:37

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan56:37

        Italian grandmother in New Jersey, you know? And the numbers were obviously this mob-run, weird s- lottery thing-

    30. GLGary Laderman56:44

        Right.
11. 1:05:08 – 1:12:00

    Tenure, academic freedom, and pharmaceuticals as religious objects

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:05:08

       What, what are you teaching in your sexuality classes that's different than what, uh, uh, people would, uh, normally expect?

    2. GLGary Laderman1:05:18

       Uh, (laughs) hmm. Uh, well, um, uh, one thing I, I try to do is, um, be as, uh, um, uh, cross-cultural as I can be. So, we look at, um, sexuality in Hinduism, um, in terms of Chinese religions, in terms of, um, African religions. So I try to really, uh, for these students, um, e- expand their minds as much as possible to see the varieties of ways in which people understand their sexuality. Um, and, and, and so, no, that's, that's where I start the class.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:05:55

       How long you been teaching this for?

    4. GLGary Laderman1:05:57

       This class?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:05:58

       Yeah, in sexuality.

    6. GLGary Laderman1:05:59

       Um, oh, uh, this is another one that's, uh, post-tenure. Uh, but it's, um, probably been about seven or eight years, I'd say.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:06:05

       Do, w- how much... Th- this is a really important question.

    8. GLGary Laderman1:06:08

       Uh-huh.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:06:08

       Like, as a professor, what is it like pre-tenure and post-tenure?

    10. GLGary Laderman1:06:13

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:06:13

        'Cause it seems to be a night and day difference in terms of freedom and-

    12. GLGary Laderman1:06:17

        Right. I, I overplay that a bit, but, um-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:06:19

        But everyone does. It's not you.

    14. GLGary Laderman1:06:21

        ... um, this, this isn't-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:06:21

        Everyone.

    16. GLGary Laderman1:06:22

        Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's a strange, uh, whole, um, uh, organization, you know, and, and logic, the higher education. I, I, I'm opposed to tenure. I think it's bullshit.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:06:33

        Yeah?

    18. GLGary Laderman1:06:34

        Um, absolutely.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:06:34

        But do you think it protects, uh, intellectual freedom-

    20. GLGary Laderman1:06:38

        No.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:06:38

        ... in any way?

    22. GLGary Laderman1:06:39

        Well, I mean-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:06:39

        No?

    24. GLGary Laderman1:06:39

        ... I m- I think there was a time in which we might make that argument, but, um, you know, uh, I don't know. Who else has tenure?

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:06:46

        Um...

    26. GLGary Laderman1:06:46

        What other, uh, professions?

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:06:49

        It's a good question.

    28. GLGary Laderman1:06:50

        It's just, it's insane.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:06:51

        Um, yeah.

    30. GLGary Laderman1:06:51

        You know? It's like not the real world, and um-
12. 1:12:00 – 1:49:22

    Origins of Laderman’s death studies: childhood trauma and ‘Don’t think about death’

    1. GLGary Laderman1:12:00

       I mean, again, I'm, I'm very fortunate, and e- especially being at Emory. Um, so it's a, it's a different kind of, um, professional life that I, again, it just, I've been really fortunate. And, uh, it wasn't planned. You know, I was a fuck up. And, uh, as I write about in this new book, you know, uh, Don't Think About Death, which is a memoir on mortality. Um, I was directionless and just fucking around at high school and getting high and taking all kinds of drugs.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:12:27

       How dare you?

    3. GLGary Laderman1:12:28

       Yeah, can you believe that?

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:12:29

       (laughs)

    5. GLGary Laderman1:12:30

       In the San Fernando Valley.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:12:31

       That's weird. You were doing that in the San Fernando Valley? No one does that there.

    7. GLGary Laderman1:12:35

       Is that, nobody. No. (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:12:37

       You must have been a rebel.

    9. GLGary Laderman1:12:38

       I was a, yeah, yeah, right. (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:12:39

        (laughs)

    11. GLGary Laderman1:12:39

        Talk about conformity, but oh my God. But-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:12:42

        What part of the Valley did you live in?

    13. GLGary Laderman1:12:44

        Van Nuys.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:12:44

        Oh, okay. Our, our old studio was in Woodland Hills.

    15. GLGary Laderman1:12:47

        Right.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:12:47

        Yeah.

    17. GLGary Laderman1:12:47

        And, and, and, and one of your guys grew up in the Valley.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:12:50

        Mm-hmm.

    19. GLGary Laderman1:12:51

        So I got to talk to him.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:12:51

        Sure, yeah.

    21. GLGary Laderman1:12:52

        And it was fun.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:12:52

        I used to work out in Van Nuys. That's where the Benny the Jets Jet Center was.

    23. GLGary Laderman1:12:56

        Oh, yeah, right, right.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:12:57

        You know where that was?

    25. GLGary Laderman1:12:58

        Funny, yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:12:58

        World-famous kickboxing gym.

    27. GLGary Laderman1:12:59

        Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:13:00

        One of the first places I came to when I came to California. Couldn't wait to go to the Jets' center.

    29. GLGary Laderman1:13:04

        'Cause you had heard about it.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:13:05

        Oh, my God, it was legendary. Benny Urquidez, like, a legendary kickboxer, uh, in the early days of kickboxing. And he came out of Los Angeles.

Episode duration: 2:23:10