Joe Rogan Experience #1569 - John Mackey

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan Podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night! (drumbeats) All day! (rock music plays) Hello, Jon.

   3. JMJohn Mackey0:13

      Hey, Joe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Nice to meet ya.

   5. JMJohn Mackey0:15

      Likewise.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Um, thank you for welcoming me to Austin. And thanks for the food. No one's ever brought me food here.

   7. JMJohn Mackey0:20

      I'm a grocer, that's what I do.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      (laughs)

   9. JMJohn Mackey0:23

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       I know, but y- you brought me, uh, actual frozen meat. So, thank you very much.

   11. JMJohn Mackey0:27

       Frozen meat, some vegan cheese, um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Yeah, that will go to friends.

   13. JMJohn Mackey0:32

       I- It's really good.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       I'm-

   15. JMJohn Mackey0:33

       It's really good. It's got-

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Does it taste good or is it good for you?

   17. JMJohn Mackey0:36

       It... Both. It's just made strictly out of almonds, that's all that's there in the culture.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Oh, really?

   19. JMJohn Mackey0:40

       Yeah, taste it. It's a cream cheese with (clears throat) chives in it. It's delicious.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       I really just like almonds. Can I just have almonds?

   21. JMJohn Mackey0:46

       You can-

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       (laughs)

   23. JMJohn Mackey0:46

       ... but, but, you'll like the cheese.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Okay.

   25. JMJohn Mackey0:49

       Give it a try. I know you're an open-minded man.

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah, I am.

   27. JMJohn Mackey0:52

       So yeah, give it a try.

   28. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       I'll try, I'll try your vegan cheese.

   29. JMJohn Mackey0:54

       Okay.

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       But you, you're sending me mixed signals. Fr- You gave me frozen elk meat and vegan cheese.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   But you have a…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      But, you know, you have an act, and your act is...

   2. JMJohn Mackey15:03

      But you have a lot of different things y- a lot of things you could do.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of things you talk about.

   4. JMJohn Mackey15:08

      I mean, is it... Do you, like, say, "I don't think this joke's gonna land" with this particular audience?

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      No. No, sometimes I'll force-feed them. (laughs)

   6. JMJohn Mackey15:12

      You just... You go through... You go through... "They, they need to hear this."

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      (laughs)

   8. JMJohn Mackey15:17

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      It's... Y- you know, it's... It gives you an opportunity to try to figure out a better way to word it, or a better way to justify your position, or a better... or a softer way to land it.

   10. JMJohn Mackey15:29

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       You know? It's like there's al- Like, there's a lot of different weird things that are going on when you're doing comedy. Comedy is kind of like mass hypnosis. That's what it's like, in a way.

   12. JMJohn Mackey15:38

       You know, I do a lot of public speaking, so, uh, I have learned that there's... You know, you have to sync up with the audience. And I can, I can just tell whether this is gonna land well with this particular group-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       Hmm.

   14. JMJohn Mackey15:51

       ... or whether it's not, and I d- I sort of adj- adjust on the fly. I still have a speech I'm gonna give, but I do alter it as I go along. I shorten some stuff, lengthen other stuff, and I substitute if I think that's gonna bomb out, so...

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Well, I think public speaking, like what you're doing when you're standing up and, and talking about a very particular subject, is almost more open-ended, because you really never know what kinda crowd you're gonna get, whether they're gonna be in a good mood or a bad mood, whether they're bored or hot or cold. When you go to see comedy, generally people go there because they want to have fun.

   16. JMJohn Mackey16:24

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       So they have a good perspective when they get there. They're like, "I've come here to have fun and laugh. I hope these comedians are funny." Like, you go there with, like, a little bit of a smile on your face when you sit down. Like, "Here we go. It's gonna be fun."

   18. JMJohn Mackey16:35

       Yeah. And so they have a predisposition to wanna laugh anyway.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Yes, yes.

   20. JMJohn Mackey16:39

       They're not going there to judge you, they're going there to laugh and-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:42

       Some people are, but those people are, you know, they're trouble.

   22. JMJohn Mackey16:44

       That... They, they already didn't like you before they (laughs) went there.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       Yeah. Or that, you know, there's some people that, that think they're gonna, "Oh, well, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna heckle. I'm gonna show 'em what's up."

   24. JMJohn Mackey16:52

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:52

       There's these, these kind of people. But g- and generally, clubs kick those people out. Really, uh, most people that come to comedy clubs, they go because it's fun. Look, I still love comedy as a, uh, a p- As an audience member. I enjoy it as a customer. It's fun.

   26. JMJohn Mackey17:06

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       I love watching great comedians. It's, it's... It feels good to laugh. I love, I love their creativity.

   28. JMJohn Mackey17:12

       Do you learn a lot from other comedians?

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. You learn what makes you laugh. You know, like, sometimes I'll, I'll see someone performing, and it'll give... It'll inspire me. I'm like, "Wow, that guy really put a lot into that," or, or, "Wow, her writing is so cr- is so clever." And it'll make you... It, it'll fire up your neurons. It'll get you excited.

   30. JMJohn Mackey17:30

       Do you do your... All your own writing?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Do... When you're talking…

   1. JMJohn Mackey30:00

      'Cause again, you said earlier on, "Incentives matter, but we're, we're gonna take away the incentives for business to really flourish and succeed." But they should do it from altruistic reasons. And we may do some things for altruistic reasons, but you cannot build a society around it.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Do... When you're talking about win-win-win, this is a very... In many ways, it's... I, I see what you're saying, but...... there are l- things that are negative that are associated with profit and innovation, and particularly expanding industry, right? For particularly, uh, environmental impacts. Like, when you talk... When you say win, win, win, like, there's n- there's very f- rarely, when you're... Especially when you're dealing with creating and designing and building things, you've got a negative impact in some way, environmentally.

   3. JMJohn Mackey30:50

      T- two points. Um, first of all, historically, socialism has been far worse, worse polluter than, than capitalist countries.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:58

      How so?

   5. JMJohn Mackey30:58

      Well, if you just look at the environmental destruction that the Soviet Union left behind, it, it was a complete disaster.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:03

      Right. But that's... This, this is socialism done wrong, John. We're gonna do it right here.

   7. JMJohn Mackey31:08

      Who has done it right, Joe?

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:09

      (laughs) No one.

   9. JMJohn Mackey31:09

      No one's done it right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       No one.

   11. JMJohn Mackey31:11

       And h-

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       But the Soviet Union's a bad example.

   13. JMJohn Mackey31:12

       No, all-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:13

       Because Stalin was...

   15. JMJohn Mackey31:13

       Yeah. But all of Eastern Europe were... There, there's no incentive to protect the common good in socialism, and they don't. When the government has a monopoly of all decision and power-making, they don't tend to look out for the environment. That's one of the myths.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       You also take away agency from people, and you, you take away their desire to improve and do better. And without incentive, people just don't perform the same way.

   17. JMJohn Mackey31:38

       But the beautiful thing about business... Let's concede a partial truth to what you said, that there will be unintended negative consequences, as you say, environmentally. Well, that's why you have to regulate business to a certain extent. That's why you have to make people responsible for their environmental pollutants. And b- because bu- business innovates and has an incentive to innovate, um, business can innovate and create solutions to those environmental problems.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       Okay. Let me stop you there for a second. When you say, "Make people responsible for their environmental pollutants," then we're, we're gonna have to deal with another aspect of capitalism. And that's the, the effect that special interest groups and lobbyists have on politicians, because they create laws that shield these big businesses from consequences from these negative actions. So by saying that they have to clean up their problem, the only way that's ever going to happen is if they're not protected, if they don't use that influence and money...

   19. JMJohn Mackey32:37

       Totally agree.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       So this is where I think a lot of people have a, a valid argument against capitalism.

   21. JMJohn Mackey32:45

       Exactly.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:45

       Like, capitalism has kind of fucked over our, our, our, our system of government in a way, because money has gotten so deeply involved with super PACs and lobbyists. And there's so much money involved that it changes the way we, we govern things.

   23. JMJohn Mackey33:02

       Is that a flaw of capitalism, or is that a flaw of government?

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       I think it's a flaw of government, but that government has been influenced by capitalism, by capitalism's desire for universal growth, for constant growth.

   25. JMJohn Mackey33:15

       The... The sad truth is that humanity is not perfectible. We can never create the perfect system. And the attempt to create the perfect system... The perfect just doesn't mean any good.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Right.

   27. JMJohn Mackey33:27

       Capitalism is not perfect. It does not... Because human choices and what people want varies. People t- Uh, capitalism will sell cigarettes to people because that's what people want. It gives them pleasure, but it's bad for their health, but they're, they're giving people what they want. It's, it's the same thing in, in any type of externality. That's not, that's not deliberately done to harm the society. It's sort of a by-product.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:54

       Right. But this is why win, win, win doesn't really work.

   29. JMJohn Mackey33:57

       It's-

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:57

       It's not really win, win, win. It's win most of the time, but with some negative consequences that are better than the alternative, right?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   They don't see it.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      who've never built a business like Whole Foods, they don't seem to see that.

   2. JMJohn Mackey45:05

      They don't see it. Um, the reality is, is that people like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, um, they are, they're good capital allocators, so to speak. They are not gonna waste that money. That money's gonna be reinvested to create new and more dynamic businesses that will help ... Uh, the innovations will help our society move forward. When you just redistribute that money, it, there's no more additional innovation. It's just, it's just, it's being consumed. This whole idea that it's consumption that drives the economy is fundamentally, uh, a myth. It's mostly creativity and innovation that drives the economy. So, we need to keep that money in the hands of our most creative people, which are entrepreneurs, uh, creative businesspeople. And, uh, for some reason, I probably, I think because of envy, it seems so unfair. Again, we own a win-lose model. If Jeff Bezos has $150 billion, then that's unfair. In some sort of cosmic way, that's unfair. And they believe that somehow or another, others have less. So, there's like, this fixed pie, and Jeff took a big piece of it-

   3. JRJoe Rogan46:15

      Hmm.

   4. JMJohn Mackey46:15

      ... or, or, or, or Elon Musk has taken a big piece of it. But it's not a fixed pie. That's the wrong metaphor. Innovationism is continually growing the pie. And in fact, humanity is demonstrably better off because of the capitalists, because of the innovationists.

   5. JRJoe Rogan46:28

      Let me play devil's advocate, 'cause this is the way they look at it. They would say, "Well, when you get to that sort of a position, like a Jeff Bezos, where you have $150 billion, you can exert your influence on people in a way that's detrimental to society. You've achieved too high of a position. You have too much power, and you will probably lose- use that power to loosen regulations, to, uh, bribe politicians or influence politicians and to get laws passed that are better for your business and stifle competition."

   6. JMJohn Mackey47:02

      I think that's a powerful argument. And if and when it happens, you have to push back against, you have to resist it. I think most businesspeople are not doing that. I think ... I don't see that Jeff's trying to pass or, you know, I, or I don't see mo- y- I don't see Jeff trying to pass laws that-

   7. JRJoe Rogan47:18

      No, I don't think he is either.

   8. JMJohn Mackey47:19

      ... favor Amazon. I think-

   9. JRJoe Rogan47:19

      I'm not saying he is.

   10. JMJohn Mackey47:19

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       If he was, boy, would they come after him.

   12. JMJohn Mackey47:21

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:21

       'Cause he's balling so hard.

   14. JMJohn Mackey47:23

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:23

       They'd be like, "That motherfucker who has, doesn't have enough?"

   16. JMJohn Mackey47:26

       But I know that before, when Whole Foods was ... We were a public company for 25 years and, uh, we, we had the government go after us a few times. Uh-

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:34

       For?

   18. JMJohn Mackey47:35

       Well, they tried to stop our ... We tried to make an acquisition of a, of a company called Wild Oats back in 2007. We actually made the acquisition, but the FTC tried to stop it. We ended up going into court with them and we actually won in court. And very interesting, the FTC has their own court. And they s- after we won in the federal courts, they said, "Well, now we wanna take you into the, our court, the administrative court."

   19. JRJoe Rogan47:56

       Oh. Terrific. They have their own court?

   20. JMJohn Mackey47:57

       They ha- they had their own court.

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:58

       Don't you wish you had your own court? I-

   22. JMJohn Mackey47:59

       Take you to Whole Foods court, motherfucker. (laughs) I'll take the FTC to the Whole Foods court.

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       Dumb. Dumb. Right?

   24. JMJohn Mackey48:04

       But, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:05

       Like, the People's Court.

   26. JMJohn Mackey48:06

       ... y- uh, you don't win in the FTC court. You don't win in that court. So-

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:08

       Well, how many people have won in that court?

   28. JMJohn Mackey48:11

       I think when I looked at it-

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:13

       Zero?

   30. JMJohn Mackey48:13

       ... at that time, this was back in 2007, I think 46 of the 48 previous cases, this is from memory so I could be wrong, had lost.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:14:48

   Right. That's a real…

   1. JMJohn Mackey1:00:00

      with.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Right. That's a real problem with people that don't want to hear the other perspective.

   3. JMJohn Mackey1:00:05

      We're stuck in... That's your social dilemma issue.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Yes.

   5. JMJohn Mackey1:00:07

      When we get stuck in an echo chamber, if we only... if you're, if you're a traditionalist and you only watch Fox News, for example, then you're not gonna get a wider perspective. But if you're a progressive and you only read the New York Times and watch CNN and MSNBC, you may not be getting a, a wider perspective either. We need to expose ourselves to the wider context of information that's out there.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

      That is a philosophy that I think should be taught in school that is as important as mathematics and history. There's a, there's a thing about challenging ideas and looking at your own ideas in a wa- in an objective way. I d- I think one of the things that I've worked very hard at doing is not being married to any of the ideas that I have in my head, and that I don't... They are not mine, they are an idea. And even though I have espoused these ideas, even though I've defended these ideas, if something comes along that shows me that this idea is flawed or inaccurate, I have made a very posi- a very conscious, positive effort to abandon those ideas-

   7. JMJohn Mackey1:01:12

      So do I.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

      ... or reexamine them.

   9. JMJohn Mackey1:01:13

      I've got a metaphor for it that you, you... I'm happy to loan it to you-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       Okay.

   11. JMJohn Mackey1:01:16

       ... You can have it too. It's like ideas are like, um, I've got clothes on here today, but they're not who I am. I'm just wearing them today.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:25

       Right.

   13. JMJohn Mackey1:01:25

       And, and I'll put these aside and I'll wear different clothes tomorrow. They're... the clothes are not me, and the ideas and beliefs I have are not me either.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:33

       Right.

   15. JMJohn Mackey1:01:33

       When, when they don't fit any longer, I set them aside-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

       Mm.

   17. JMJohn Mackey1:01:37

       ... and I get new clothes that fit better. The... and, and it's a... that's a, that's a very liberating way to think about your beliefs and your ideas, because otherwise, if you identify yourself with what you believe, that means if somebody criticizes one of your beliefs, y- many people take it as a personal attack, that somehow they're, they're saying I don't have worth because they disagree with my views. No, they're just saying they don't like the clothes that you're wearing-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:59

       Yeah.

   19. JMJohn Mackey1:01:59

       ... but that's not who you are. So, I'm not my beliefs. They are just what I'm wearing for right now.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I think there is a real problem with people looking at people's ideas and judging them and their value as a human being based on those ideas. But we do it because most people are married to their, to their ideas, and we're taught to defend our ideas to the death, that these ideas are core to who you are as a person, that they're core to how you identify, how you think of yourself.

   21. JMJohn Mackey1:02:29

       It's like the Matrix, you gotta free your mind.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       Yeah.

   23. JMJohn Mackey1:02:32

       Free your mind.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       Well, this... it's very freeing in, in being able to recognize you're wrong and say you're wrong. It's very, it's very freeing.

   25. JMJohn Mackey1:02:41

       It is.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:41

       And we resist it. But when you resist it and you know you're wrong, you feel like a loser. Like inside your head, you know you're full of shit.

   27. JMJohn Mackey1:02:49

       You know, I don't, I don't experience it that way. So one of the things I try to do as CEO of Whole Foods Market is I always try to admit my mistakes in a very public way, because I feel like that helps everybody else admit their own mistakes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:02

       Yeah.

   29. JMJohn Mackey1:03:02

       And I'll just say, "You know, I was wrong about that. I made a mistake. I'm sorry about that." It... and... 'cause then if you admit you made a mistake, you can learn from it. You don't have to make the same mistake again.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:12

       Mm.

Episode duration: 3:38:37