EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,121 words- 0:00 – 1:03
Austin welcome, Whole Foods goodies, and vegan cheese vs elk meat
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night! (drumbeats) All day! (rock music plays) Hello, Jon.
- JMJohn Mackey
Hey, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nice to meet ya.
- JMJohn Mackey
Likewise.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, thank you for welcoming me to Austin. And thanks for the food. No one's ever brought me food here.
- JMJohn Mackey
I'm a grocer, that's what I do.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I know, but y- you brought me, uh, actual frozen meat. So, thank you very much.
- JMJohn Mackey
Frozen meat, some vegan cheese, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that will go to friends.
- JMJohn Mackey
I- It's really good.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm-
- JMJohn Mackey
It's really good. It's got-
- JRJoe Rogan
Does it taste good or is it good for you?
- JMJohn Mackey
It... Both. It's just made strictly out of almonds, that's all that's there in the culture.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really?
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah, taste it. It's a cream cheese with (clears throat) chives in it. It's delicious.
- JRJoe Rogan
I really just like almonds. Can I just have almonds?
- JMJohn Mackey
You can-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJohn Mackey
... but, but, you'll like the cheese.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JMJohn Mackey
Give it a try. I know you're an open-minded man.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I am.
- JMJohn Mackey
So yeah, give it a try.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'll try, I'll try your vegan cheese.
- JMJohn Mackey
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you, you're sending me mixed signals. Fr- You gave me frozen elk meat and vegan cheese.
- 1:03 – 3:27
Conscious Leadership & “Conscious Capitalism”: rebranding capitalism as innovation
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, w- what I wanna talk to you about... Well, first of all, you have a book out. The book is, uh, Conscious Capitalism.
- JMJohn Mackey
No. That book that's out is Conscious Leadership-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JMJohn Mackey
... which is a sequel to... You already have that book.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But I have this one right here.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah, 'cause I brought that today.
- JRJoe Rogan
And Conscious Leadership, a sequel to Conscious Capitalism.
- JMJohn Mackey
Right. (clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, that... For a lot of people those are, that's an oxymoron. That's jumbo shrimp or military intelligence, right? Conscious Capitalism. Today, in this, in this day and age, this very strange time, there's a large seg- I shouldn't say a large segment, but it's a very squeaky wheel. There's a segment of our culture that thinks that capitalism is evil.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. I'm not in that, I'm not in that classification. In fact, I think the opposite. I think capitalism's the greatest thing humanity's ever done. It's been capital- If you go back just 200 years ago when capitalism was really getting going, 94% of the people alive on the planet Earth lived on less than $2 a day. And that's adjusted for inflation. 94%. Today it's under 10%. If you go back 200 years ago, the average lifespan was 30, now it's 72.6. We're heading... And in advanced countries, it's about 80. Illiteracy rates 200 years ago were 88% of the world couldn't read, now it's down to 12%.
- JRJoe Rogan
But can you attribute that solely to capitalism? Or c- Wouldn't you attribute that to innovation and technology and-
- JMJohn Mackey
That's the right name for capitalism. It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- JMJohn Mackey
Karl Marx called it capitalism. What it really is, a better name, which we talked about in Conscious Leadership, is innovationism. Continuous innovation is how humanity prog- progresses. But it's, it's business that takes the innovations of science and puts them into forms that create value for other people. So, it's, it's, it's, it's been capitalism or innovationism that's lifted humanity out of the dirt, that's transforming our world. Even as we speak, it's amazing just what's happened in the last... In my lifetime, it's astounding, all the progress that humanity's made. And we're going through a tough year right now, so it doesn't work in a perfect linear line, but the trend lines are clear. The, the book I always try to get everybody to read is Steven Pinker's book, Enlightenment Now. You ever taken a look at that book?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I haven't. But I'm a big fan of lot of his work.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. That book just documents... It's just unbelievable how he documents progress since the enlightenment. It's incredible.
- 3:27 – 6:40
Socialism’s appeal, Scandinavian comparisons, and why incentives matter
- JRJoe Rogan
The (clears throat) , the problem that a lot of people have with capitalism is they, they attribute capitalism to, to greed. They c- they attribute greed and the problems of the world, environmental destruction and i- ignoring climate change, and... They attribute that to capitalism. And they think that the way out of this is socialism, some type of socialism. But in my opinion, the people that are saying that, they, I don't think they, I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with contributing and contributing to a better community in terms of, uh, making healthcare more affordable or free, making education more affordable or free. But you gotta... Human beings need incentives in order to perform. And that's, that's just human nature, whether we like it or not. If you want a system that allows for a continual progress of in- innovation, like constant innovation, you gotta give people incentives to do that. They have to incent- The, just the human animal strives to achieve-
- JMJohn Mackey
Totally.
- JRJoe Rogan
... for whatever reason.
- JMJohn Mackey
Totally agree. I mean, it's not like socialism hasn't been tried.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
In the last 100 years, 42 countries have tried socialism, and there have been 42 failures.
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't it amazing that it's still popular? (laughs)
- JMJohn Mackey
Because people just believe... Well, because a new generation doesn't know their history.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
(clears throat) And they just believe it hasn't been done right yet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJohn Mackey
It'll... This time, give me the power, and I'll make sure it gets done right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
But it can't be done right. It's intrinsically flawed. And they fall back on the Scandinavian argument, uh, what about Sweden and Denmark and Norway? But those, those... If you look at the economic freedom index, those are some of the most capitalistic countries in the world. They're... And, and the economic freedom index, for example, Denmark's listed one place below the United States, it's like number 12. Sweden's like number 20. United States is like number 13 or 14. So Iceland is even fr- is the freest of those Scandinavian countries. So Sweden's held up as a, as an example, but what people don't realize is the corporate income taxes in Sweden are only 21%, they have no inheritance taxes at all, they have universal vouchers for s- education, so c- free competition in education, not a monopoly. Uh, they do... They are probably in a lot of ways more capitalistic than Americans are.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what is it that they use, they, they point to when they talk, point to these Scandinavian countries? What are they using as an example of them being a shining light of socialism?
- JMJohn Mackey
In some sense, they're still stuck in the '60s when Sweden did an experiment with socialism before it moved away from it. They're still living in the '60s, and yet S- they tried it (clears throat) and their economy tanked, and they-
- JRJoe Rogan
What did they try? How'd they try it?
- JMJohn Mackey
They, they...... they socialized industry. They, they, uh, they, they had government, uh, own the means of productions in most of these, uh, large corporations. And they had very high, uh, business taxes. And they ... A lot of people like Bjorn Borg is a good example. He was driven out of Sweden. Or, or Ingmar Bergman d- driven out for unbelievably high taxes, so ... Hey, just like you've been driven out of California. (laughs)
- 6:40 – 10:39
COVID governance, California vs Texas, and the cost of shutdowns
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I wasn't driven out of it because of that. If California was still open the way Texas is, I would have stayed. I saw the writing on the wall with, uh, m- many things. One of them was that they were closing restaurants and bars and comedy clubs, and they weren't closing them in other states. And I, I didn't, I didn't think that they were recognizing that there's, there's an impact health-wise, but there, there's also a health impact if you destroy the economy. And that, that impact ... Like you're not ... People that get COVID, most people survive.
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
When your economy tanks and 40-plus percent of your businesses are gone, I don't think economically you're gonna bounce back nearly as well. I think, I think it's a very dangerous place to be. Like Los Angeles right now, if you're a, a business owner, it's a dangerous place to be. Because all of a sudden governors are acting like autocrats and they're, they're ... I mean, the, the ... There was a recent ruling, right, where he lost in court because they ... he's passing legislation on his own. He's making mandates on his own that the rest of the state doesn't agree with and they're not going through the normal process.
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they've stopped him from doing that now. But look, they, they still just put ... They imposed a curfew in Los Angeles C- of 10:00 PM just to ... Just random curfew. Like what is ... H- how is that stopping? All you're doing is limiting people. You're, you're limiting f- you're not ... There's no emphasis whatsoever on strengthening people's immune system-
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... or on health, and all this emphasis on tanking the, the economy.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
All this emphasis on closing businesses down. And I just saw the writing on the wall.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I'm like, "This place is fucking doomed."
- JMJohn Mackey
I think you're, I think you're telling the truth there, Joe. I agree.
- JRJoe Rogan
I just can't believe that ... See, b- before, it didn't matter that much who your governor was or who your mayor was. When everything was going well people didn't think about it that much, you know. You would be like, "Oh, you know, the mayor, whatever the fuck his name is, he's kinda goofy. Who cares? Let's go to work." And you would just do-
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... your normal thing, go, "This is America. How bad can they fuck this up?" And then you realize in time of crisis when they assume these powers that they never had before, and then you realize how insanely hypocritical they are. Well, f- thankfully, our governor, the Governor of California, not my governor anymore, I got a Texas license now.
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Give me some knuckles.
- JMJohn Mackey
Congratulations.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you. Um, but when ... They caught him at that restaurant, The French Laundry-
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you know, eating with no mask on inside, no social distancing, all the things that he tells everybody to do. Tells everybody to put a mask on in between your bites of food, and then he's not doing it himself. You're like-
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Okay." This is, this is exactly like his aunt, Nancy Pelosi, when she got busted going to a beauty parlor with no mask on while they were all closed down. They ... It's rules for you, but not rules for them.
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's, it's disgusting.
- JMJohn Mackey
Right. I mean, is it really about the COVID or is it about the rules? I mean, that's really the question.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, w- human beings love telling people what to do.
- JMJohn Mackey
They do.
- JRJoe Rogan
They really do. And if they have a reason where they can justify that, that it seems feasible-
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah.
- 10:39 – 12:03
Sweden as a COVID case study: recommendations vs coercion
- JMJohn Mackey
Well, we actually have some good examples out there, um, and even though it t- it gets a lot of criticism, the way Sweden handled it is probably again more aligned with how America might have handled it in previous decades.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that comparable though?
- JMJohn Mackey
(clears throat)
- JRJoe Rogan
Because Sweden is so small in comparison. I mean, you have Stockholm, you have, you have some cities, but you have all these, like, small villages and people are generally healthier there too.
- JMJohn Mackey
I think it's comparable in the sense that, in general, people are the best judges for what's best for themselves. I mean, government can give advice. They made recommendations to people in Sweden, they just didn't coerce them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
They just didn't force them to have a curfew here or ... Their, their kids went to school and, and, um ... People ... In general, people can make good decisions for themselves and their families. They're the ones that should be making the decisions, not the government.
- JRJoe Rogan
100%. I couldn't agree more. And that is the difference between the way Texas approached this and the way California did. That's what drove me out of California. Yeah, the high taxes are stupid, but I liked living there. It was-
- JMJohn Mackey
Because-
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot of my friends were there.
- JMJohn Mackey
'Cause there's ... Where is it more beautiful in the whole world than California? It's an amazing climate. It's, it's, it's just very, very ... Incredibly beautiful place. I love, I lo-
- JRJoe Rogan
I got tired of running from fires too well.
- JMJohn Mackey
I ... Well, that's true.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
I love to, I love to visit California but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
... I wouldn't want to live there.
- 12:03 – 20:18
Comedy as a craft: bombing, audience synchronization, and “woke” crowds
- JRJoe Rogan
The, um, the comedy community there is pretty awesome.... it's, uh, The Comedy Store and the Improv. I mean, it's just two of the best clubs in the world, and they're right in this one city. And the, the community of comedians is just fantastic. And the fact that they closed all that down-
- JMJohn Mackey
W- was LA th- was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
Was it the Silicon Valley, so to speak, of com- of comedy?
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe better, yeah. Because Silicon Valley is... I mean, there's other parts of the world that have technology hubs, right? There's not really another comedy hub other than New York.
- JMJohn Mackey
Chicago?
- JRJoe Rogan
Not really, no.
- JMJohn Mackey
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Chicago has Second City, which is a-
- JMJohn Mackey
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... improv hub. It's different. You know, there's a, a great history of sketch comedy outta there, of course. You know, Second City is where, you know, Belushi came from, and a lot of great sketch comedians came from. But as far as standup-
- JMJohn Mackey
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's really LA and New York. It used to be Boston had a big part of it, and Boston still has a small community. Austin has... Right here, Austin, Texas has a, a small community that's always been very good, like Kenaston and, uh, Hicks. Uh, Hicks actually came outta here.
- JMJohn Mackey
Have you done standup in Austin here-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah, I have.
- JMJohn Mackey
... since you've been...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (clears throat) Yeah, I did, um, Stubb's Bar-B-Q at Chappelle last week.
- JMJohn Mackey
Oh, there you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then I did Vulcan Gas Company the week before. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm getting rolling again. Ultimately, I'm gonna open up a club here.
- JMJohn Mackey
So you still love doing standup?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the most fun. It's the most fun, John.
- JMJohn Mackey
I know I'm not interviewing you, but when you were like a kid-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJohn Mackey
... were you like... Were you the class clown?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JMJohn Mackey
That came later?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
You were a good boy?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, m- No, I wasn't a good boy at all.
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs)
- 20:18 – 28:08
Why socialism resurges: academia, status resentment, and “business as greed”
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) I'll tell you. I'll tell you when I'm in town next. Um, the- the- the- back to the subject of, uh, (clears throat) capitalism. Capitalism and Marxism and socialism. This, uh... Right now, we're in a wave of this, right?
- JMJohn Mackey
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's become more popular now, uh, I- I would say over the last... Particularly during the Trump administrations.
- JMJohn Mackey
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The- the concept of socialism, at least, has become more- more publicly discussed than at- any time that I can remember in my life.
- JMJohn Mackey
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you think that is?
- JMJohn Mackey
I think it's because the generation that's coming up is... I mean, you have to understand the academic community is- is... I always say the intellectuals have always been the enemy of business. Uh, enemy of... Certainly the ene- ene- enemy of capitalism. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
But why is that?
- JMJohn Mackey
I think because in a- in a market society, uh, (clears throat) which has been rare in history, we haven't mostly had market societies, but they're not very important in a market society. Uh, th-
- JRJoe Rogan
The intellectuals aren't very important?
- JMJohn Mackey
Generally not as important, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
But aren't they the ones that inspire the minds of the people that create and- and maybe innovate in the industry?
- JMJohn Mackey
They don't have the same social status that the entrepreneurs have.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JMJohn Mackey
An Elon Musk or s- or a Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos. These guys-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, you think it's an ego issue? The social status issue?
- JMJohn Mackey
Th- think about it this way. If you- you're- you're going to school, okay? And the people that end up teaching in the universities were always the smartest kids in the school, generally. And they- and they did well in school. I mean, smart in terms of doing well in school. And they go on to college and then they- they- they go and get a PhD and then they- they... That's all they've known, is school. That's- that's been their universe, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJohn Mackey
And they excelled at it. And they were smarter than the other kids in school. And now these other kids, they- they go to college and they get a degree in business and they're in a fraternity and- and they g- make a lot of friends and relationships and they g- and they make more money than the intellectuals do. And that seems like that's completely unfair. It's an unjust world that this... Less smart people are making more money than the smart people do, and they have more status in the society. And I think- I think that's under- under- underlying it is a resentment or an envy of a society that doesn't judge them to be as important as they judge themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
That- that's interesting, but I think it's a very flawed perspective. It... And first of all, the- the term smart is a weird term, right?
- JMJohn Mackey
I said smart in terms of school.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJohn Mackey
I didn't say in terms of street smarts-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
... or ability to do things, to connect with people. Uh, there's emotional intelligence. I'm merely saying they're good at taking tests, writing papers, uh, abstracting thoughts, essentially. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, but this is what I'm saying. That... Just the term smart, it's almost like... The problem is it's like a blanket term, right? It's like drugs. You know, it g- applies to a bunch of different things that don't necessarily seem to be related. But the people that are interested in that pursue that. The fact that they can't understand that there's an intel- like... Elon Musk is a great example. If you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent, you're either d- d- not- you're in-
- JMJohn Mackey
You're not very intelligent yourself-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
... if you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent.
- 28:08 – 39:38
Win-Win-Win capitalism vs externalities: environment, regulation, and lobbying
- JMJohn Mackey
All right. So here's a big idea we talk about in Conscious Leadership. We have a chapter called Find Win-Win-Win Solutions. The metaphors that we use to think about society tend to be very binary. Good versus evil. Um, light versus darkness. Win versus lose. And so, they tend to think of business as a win-lose game. Somebody wins and somebody else is losing. But the beauty of capitalism is, it's a win-win-win game. It's an infinite game. It's a game because the customers are winning or they wouldn't trade. The employees are winning. How are the customers winning? They're getting products and services at a, at a... And, and, and there's competition to make those services and products better. Uh, the employees are winning because they have jobs and opportunities, uh, to grow, benefits are paid. And they do that voluntarily. They're not forced to work for any particular company. They do it because they think it's in their best interest. Win for the employees. The suppliers who are trading with the business, they're winning as well or they wouldn't make the exchanges. Investors are winning or they wouldn't make the investments. And the larger society is winning because business is the engine that creates all the money that goes into non-profits and governments. Without business, there is no government and there is no (laughs) , and there is no, uh, non-profit sector because those are ultimately supplied through what business creates. So business is a win-win-win game. All of these stakeholders are winning, and that's why capitalism lifts society up. Socialism is an attempt to reverse that back to a win-lose game, and that's why it always fails. And that's why capitalism always wins.
- JRJoe Rogan
How is it an attempt to b- bring it back to a win-lose game? In what way?
- JMJohn Mackey
It, it... The, the ones that are winning, so to speak, the business people are clamped down, so they're not allowed to win. It's like, "We're gonna take your success and we're gonna redistribute it." So that... 'Cause again, you said earlier on, "Incentives matter, but we're, we're gonna take away the incentives for business to really flourish and succeed." But they should do it from altruistic reasons. And we may do some things for altruistic reasons, but you cannot build a society around it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do... When you're talking about win-win-win, this is a very... In many ways, it's... I, I see what you're saying, but...... there are l- things that are negative that are associated with profit and innovation, and particularly expanding industry, right? For particularly, uh, environmental impacts. Like, when you talk... When you say win, win, win, like, there's n- there's very f- rarely, when you're... Especially when you're dealing with creating and designing and building things, you've got a negative impact in some way, environmentally.
- JMJohn Mackey
T- two points. Um, first of all, historically, socialism has been far worse, worse polluter than, than capitalist countries.
- JRJoe Rogan
How so?
- JMJohn Mackey
Well, if you just look at the environmental destruction that the Soviet Union left behind, it, it was a complete disaster.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But that's... This, this is socialism done wrong, John. We're gonna do it right here.
- JMJohn Mackey
Who has done it right, Joe?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) No one.
- JMJohn Mackey
No one's done it right.
- JRJoe Rogan
No one.
- JMJohn Mackey
And h-
- JRJoe Rogan
But the Soviet Union's a bad example.
- JMJohn Mackey
No, all-
- JRJoe Rogan
Because Stalin was...
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. But all of Eastern Europe were... There, there's no incentive to protect the common good in socialism, and they don't. When the government has a monopoly of all decision and power-making, they don't tend to look out for the environment. That's one of the myths.
- JRJoe Rogan
You also take away agency from people, and you, you take away their desire to improve and do better. And without incentive, people just don't perform the same way.
- JMJohn Mackey
But the beautiful thing about business... Let's concede a partial truth to what you said, that there will be unintended negative consequences, as you say, environmentally. Well, that's why you have to regulate business to a certain extent. That's why you have to make people responsible for their environmental pollutants. And b- because bu- business innovates and has an incentive to innovate, um, business can innovate and create solutions to those environmental problems.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Let me stop you there for a second. When you say, "Make people responsible for their environmental pollutants," then we're, we're gonna have to deal with another aspect of capitalism. And that's the, the effect that special interest groups and lobbyists have on politicians, because they create laws that shield these big businesses from consequences from these negative actions. So by saying that they have to clean up their problem, the only way that's ever going to happen is if they're not protected, if they don't use that influence and money...
- JMJohn Mackey
Totally agree.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this is where I think a lot of people have a, a valid argument against capitalism.
- JMJohn Mackey
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, capitalism has kind of fucked over our, our, our, our system of government in a way, because money has gotten so deeply involved with super PACs and lobbyists. And there's so much money involved that it changes the way we, we govern things.
- JMJohn Mackey
Is that a flaw of capitalism, or is that a flaw of government?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's a flaw of government, but that government has been influenced by capitalism, by capitalism's desire for universal growth, for constant growth.
- JMJohn Mackey
The... The sad truth is that humanity is not perfectible. We can never create the perfect system. And the attempt to create the perfect system... The perfect just doesn't mean any good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJohn Mackey
Capitalism is not perfect. It does not... Because human choices and what people want varies. People t- Uh, capitalism will sell cigarettes to people because that's what people want. It gives them pleasure, but it's bad for their health, but they're, they're giving people what they want. It's, it's the same thing in, in any type of externality. That's not, that's not deliberately done to harm the society. It's sort of a by-product.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. But this is why win, win, win doesn't really work.
- 39:38 – 47:26
Whole Foods’ rise, “Whole Paycheck,” and how Amazon enabled price cuts
- JRJoe Rogan
That is one thing that you guys did do that's very interesting, right? You created a market where ... Like, if you tell people, "I go to Whole Foods," y- you know, so people are like, "Oh, well, you care about your health." Like, you're, it's synonymous with healthy foods, even in the name.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whole Foods.
- JMJohn Mackey
That was our brand when we were up-and-comer, and then when we got really rich ... America loves the up-and-comer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJohn Mackey
But then once you have become really successful and you're making a lot of money, they start to turn on you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- JMJohn Mackey
Well, we became Whole Paycheck.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who wrote, who said that?
- JMJohn Mackey
I don't know, but whoever did, I wish they-
- JRJoe Rogan
I never saw it.
- JMJohn Mackey
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I never saw that until right now. You just shit on yourself-
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... in a way that I never e- all I heard was Whole Foods. I never heard Whole Paycheck.
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs) Uh, then you, you, your team didn't do good research. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah, I have no team. So does this when you sold to Amazon?
- JMJohn Mackey
No, no, the Whole Paycheck thing has been around for a long time. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, 'cause Whole Paycheck meaning 'cause it's so expensive.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yes, because initially, when we were up-and-comer, you, if you shopped at Whole Foods, you were showing everybody you were sort of, you were with it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Environmentally conscious and-
- JMJohn Mackey
Yes, and you were hip and cool.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJohn Mackey
And then the narrative went sour because it's like, um, it's you're a fool for shopping there, because you can get the same food cheaper elsewhere. So you're going to Whole Paycheck.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJohn Mackey
So the narrative turned, uh, negative, so to speak.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JMJohn Mackey
I still see that pretty much all the time. Although, since our merger with Amazon, we've cut our prices many, many times.
- JRJoe Rogan
How'd you do that?
- JMJohn Mackey
Amazon allowed Whole Foods to think long term again. We needed to cut our prices, but when you're a public company, if you're selling something for a dollar and you say, "You know what? We need to sell this for 90 cents," and you start selling it for 90 cents, in the short run, you just cut your sales 10% 'cause you're just not selling any more of it. Over the long term, people will realize, "Man, I can get a good deal for 90 cents. I used to pay a buck for it." And they start to shop with you more, and, and your s- your sales will go up.
- 47:26 – 50:31
Antitrust pressure and the Wild Oats saga: the FTC’s power and costly process
- JMJohn Mackey
But I know that before, when Whole Foods was ... We were a public company for 25 years and, uh, we, we had the government go after us a few times. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
For?
- JMJohn Mackey
Well, they tried to stop our ... We tried to make an acquisition of a, of a company called Wild Oats back in 2007. We actually made the acquisition, but the FTC tried to stop it. We ended up going into court with them and we actually won in court. And very interesting, the FTC has their own court. And they s- after we won in the federal courts, they said, "Well, now we wanna take you into the, our court, the administrative court."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. Terrific. They have their own court?
- JMJohn Mackey
They ha- they had their own court.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't you wish you had your own court? I-
- JMJohn Mackey
Take you to Whole Foods court, motherfucker. (laughs) I'll take the FTC to the Whole Foods court.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dumb. Dumb. Right?
- JMJohn Mackey
But, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, the People's Court.
- JMJohn Mackey
... y- uh, you don't win in the FTC court. You don't win in that court. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, how many people have won in that court?
- JMJohn Mackey
I think when I looked at it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Zero?
- JMJohn Mackey
... at that time, this was back in 2007, I think 46 of the 48 previous cases, this is from memory so I could be wrong, had lost.
- JRJoe Rogan
They should go to court.
- JMJohn Mackey
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Someone should take them to court.
- JMJohn Mackey
But here's the thing. I asked our attorney, he said, "Okay, we're gonna lose in this court," in their court. Then what happens? He says, "Well, then you appeal that back to the federal courts." And, and then after that, if they want to, they would go to the Supreme Court if they'll take it. I said, "How much is it gonna cost me to just fight them in their own courts?" They said, "It's gonna cost you $30 million-" (explosion sound) "... in legal fees." Not to mention a lot of executive time. It's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JMJohn Mackey
... man, $30 million and we know we're gonna lose, and then we're gonna have to spend another $30 million to go to the appeals and beyond that. The lawyers love it, by the way. They-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course.
- JMJohn Mackey
They want you to do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like divorce lawyers.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yes, exactly. They-
- JRJoe Rogan
They love it.
- JMJohn Mackey
... let's have people fight because they're-
- JRJoe Rogan
You guys should not talk.
- JMJohn Mackey
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't talk this out.
- 50:31 – 1:22:37
Media incentives, Social Dilemma, and competing American worldviews
- JRJoe Rogan
There's a problem with journalism in particular today. And it's that it's not just journalism now, it's business that is sort of in a very fucked up place, where sensationalism is very important to the business model.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah, the click, the clickthroughs, the clickbaits.
- JRJoe Rogan
Very important.
- JMJohn Mackey
It's very important.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nobody's buying physical copies anymore, so they can't just rely on subscriptions.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. Did you, did you see that recent documentary, The Social Dilemma?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, I did.
- JMJohn Mackey
That was kinda creepy.
- JRJoe Rogan
I had Tristan Harris on the podcast a couple weeks ago.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah, really?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's, uh, very disturbing.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you see how this all plays out. And you're, you know, you're seeing it right now online with, uh, the election results.
- JMJohn Mackey
We are.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you're-
- JMJohn Mackey
Civil war. It looks like we're heading towards civil war.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And the ... And then you have, like, the real wacky sections of both ... You know, you have the QAnons on one side and the Antifas on the other side. And, like, ugh, it's so nuts. Like ...
- JMJohn Mackey
It is crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
That Sidney Powell lady, she seems unhinged.
- JMJohn Mackey
Uh, we'll see what she ... Can deliver the goods or not.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm very curious to see how this all plans out, or pans out rather. But, uh, it just ... You know, it just seems like the most divided I can ever remember this country being.
- JMJohn Mackey
Definitely in my lifetime, the most divided.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is exactly what they were talking about in The Social Dilemma. And they're, they were literally saying that what's happening with these algorithms, what's happening with these echo chambers that people are involved with in social media, what's happening with the way it- ... The way it influences the mind to gravitate towards these things that upset people and to rile people up and get people more and more interested in these particular polarizing subjects, that loo- ... We're headed towards almost like a civil war.
- JMJohn Mackey
Yeah. You know, of course, I do th- ... While I think The Social Dilemma is a good movie and a lot to learn from it, I do think it, um, it overstates it. In our, in our book Conscious Leadership, we talk about cultural intelligence in the book, particularly the very last part of the appendix, and we talk about how there, there are three major types of worldviews that exist in the United States that are, that are clashing with each other. The first one is more of a traditional worldview, uh, of, uh, heritage values that, that, um, might be traditional Christianity or traditional Judaism, combined with, um, uh, uh, belief in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, uh, sort of very traditional values. And y- ... And, uh, and then you have the modernist worldview, which is science, rationality, uh, capitalism, success, uh, getting ahead. Um, and that's the second. And now we have a progressive worldview that hasn't been around that long, but it's, it's a third major worldview. And I think statistically we think about 30% of the population is in, uh, the, uh, traditional worldview, about 50% is in the modernist worldview, and about, uh, 20% is in the progressive worldview. And these, all these worldviews are struggling with each other to dominate, to have their values-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJohn Mackey
... become the law of the land. And everybody must conform with their values because their values are correct. So that, that's ... That ... We think that's the essence of this cultural struggle going on. And we, we need ... And we argue in the book that there's a fourth, uh, we call t-... post-progressivism, which basically recognizes all the values have good things about them and they have some bad things about them, right? So they have dignities and disasters. And if we're gonna, if we're gonna get through it, we need conscious leaders who will be able to, uh, take the, the, the best things about each one of these worldviews and integrate them together so that we can give each of the worldviews enough to feel like this is a society worth belonging to. If we try to cram one set of values down everybody else's throats and force that into law, we're gonna have a civil war, 'cause America's not gonna stand for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I like that perspective, that there are good things and bad things about these sides. And that's one of the, the things we were talking about, like, that we're so polarized today.
- JMJohn Mackey
And something you were talking about with capitalism, because you were saying, "Hey, John, it's not perfect."
Episode duration: 3:38:37
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