Joe Rogan Experience #1569 - John Mackey

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night! (drumbeats) All day! (rock music plays) Hello, Jon.

John Mackey 0:13 Hey, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Nice to meet ya.

John Mackey 0:15 Likewise.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Um, thank you for welcoming me to Austin. And thanks for the food. No one's ever brought me food here.

John Mackey 0:20 I'm a grocer, that's what I do.

Joe Rogan 0:23 (laughs)

John Mackey 0:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:23 I know, but y- you brought me, uh, actual frozen meat. So, thank you very much.

John Mackey 0:27 Frozen meat, some vegan cheese, um-

Joe Rogan 0:30 Yeah, that will go to friends.

John Mackey 0:32 I- It's really good.

Joe Rogan 0:33 I'm-

John Mackey 0:33 It's really good. It's got-

Joe Rogan 0:34 Does it taste good or is it good for you?

John Mackey 0:36 It... Both. It's just made strictly out of almonds, that's all that's there in the culture.

Joe Rogan 0:40 Oh, really?

John Mackey 0:40 Yeah, taste it. It's a cream cheese with (clears throat) chives in it. It's delicious.

Joe Rogan 0:44 I really just like almonds. Can I just have almonds?

John Mackey 0:46 You can-

Joe Rogan 0:46 (laughs)

John Mackey 0:46 ... but, but, you'll like the cheese.

Joe Rogan 0:49 Okay.

John Mackey 0:49 Give it a try. I know you're an open-minded man.

Joe Rogan 0:51 Yeah, I am.

John Mackey 0:52 So yeah, give it a try.

Joe Rogan 0:52 I'll try, I'll try your vegan cheese.

John Mackey 0:54 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:54 But you, you're sending me mixed signals. Fr- You gave me frozen elk meat and vegan cheese.

John Mackey 1:00 I'm, you know, covering all bases.

Joe Rogan 1:02 (laughs)

John Mackey 1:02 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:03 Um, w- what I wanna talk to you about... Well, first of all, you have a book out. The book is, uh, Conscious Capitalism.

John Mackey 1:08 No. That book that's out is Conscious Leadership-

Joe Rogan 1:11 Oh.

John Mackey 1:11 ... which is a sequel to... You already have that book.

Joe Rogan 1:14 Right. But I have this one right here.

John Mackey 1:15 Yeah, 'cause I brought that today.

Joe Rogan 1:16 And Conscious Leadership, a sequel to Conscious Capitalism.

John Mackey 1:19 Right. (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:20 Um, that... For a lot of people those are, that's an oxymoron. That's jumbo shrimp or military intelligence, right? Conscious Capitalism. Today, in this, in this day and age, this very strange time, there's a large seg- I shouldn't say a large segment, but it's a very squeaky wheel. There's a segment of our culture that thinks that capitalism is evil.

John Mackey 1:40 Yeah. I'm not in that, I'm not in that classification. In fact, I think the opposite. I think capitalism's the greatest thing humanity's ever done. It's been capital- If you go back just 200 years ago when capitalism was really getting going, 94% of the people alive on the planet Earth lived on less than $2 a day. And that's adjusted for inflation. 94%. Today it's under 10%. If you go back 200 years ago, the average lifespan was 30, now it's 72.6. We're heading... And in advanced countries, it's about 80. Illiteracy rates 200 years ago were 88% of the world couldn't read, now it's down to 12%.

Joe Rogan 2:19 But can you attribute that solely to capitalism? Or c- Wouldn't you attribute that to innovation and technology and-

John Mackey 2:25 That's the right name for capitalism. It's-

Joe Rogan 2:27 Ah.

John Mackey 2:27 Karl Marx called it capitalism. What it really is, a better name, which we talked about in Conscious Leadership, is innovationism. Continuous innovation is how humanity prog- progresses. But it's, it's business that takes the innovations of science and puts them into forms that create value for other people. So, it's, it's, it's, it's been capitalism or innovationism that's lifted humanity out of the dirt, that's transforming our world. Even as we speak, it's amazing just what's happened in the last... In my lifetime, it's astounding, all the progress that humanity's made. And we're going through a tough year right now, so it doesn't work in a perfect linear line, but the trend lines are clear. The, the book I always try to get everybody to read is Steven Pinker's book, Enlightenment Now. You ever taken a look at that book?

Joe Rogan 3:15 No, I haven't. But I'm a big fan of lot of his work.

John Mackey 3:18 Yeah. That book just documents... It's just unbelievable how he documents progress since the enlightenment. It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 3:27 The (clears throat) , the problem that a lot of people have with capitalism is they, they attribute capitalism to, to greed. They c- they attribute greed and the problems of the world, environmental destruction and i- ignoring climate change, and... They attribute that to capitalism. And they think that the way out of this is socialism, some type of socialism. But in my opinion, the people that are saying that, they, I don't think they, I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with contributing and contributing to a better community in terms of, uh, making healthcare more affordable or free, making education more affordable or free. But you gotta... Human beings need incentives in order to perform. And that's, that's just human nature, whether we like it or not. If you want a system that allows for a continual progress of in- innovation, like constant innovation, you gotta give people incentives to do that. They have to incent- The, just the human animal strives to achieve-

John Mackey 4:30 Totally.

Joe Rogan 4:30 ... for whatever reason.

John Mackey 4:31 Totally agree. I mean, it's not like socialism hasn't been tried.

Joe Rogan 4:35 Yeah.

John Mackey 4:36 In the last 100 years, 42 countries have tried socialism, and there have been 42 failures.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Isn't it amazing that it's still popular? (laughs)

John Mackey 4:43 Because people just believe... Well, because a new generation doesn't know their history.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Yeah.

John Mackey 4:47 (clears throat) And they just believe it hasn't been done right yet.

Joe Rogan 4:50 Yes.

John Mackey 4:51 It'll... This time, give me the power, and I'll make sure it gets done right.

Joe Rogan 4:55 Yeah.

John Mackey 4:55 But it can't be done right. It's intrinsically flawed. And they fall back on the Scandinavian argument, uh, what about Sweden and Denmark and Norway? But those, those... If you look at the economic freedom index, those are some of the most capitalistic countries in the world. They're... And, and the economic freedom index, for example, Denmark's listed one place below the United States, it's like number 12. Sweden's like number 20. United States is like number 13 or 14. So Iceland is even fr- is the freest of those Scandinavian countries. So Sweden's held up as a, as an example, but what people don't realize is the corporate income taxes in Sweden are only 21%, they have no inheritance taxes at all, they have universal vouchers for s- education, so c- free competition in education, not a monopoly. Uh, they do... They are probably in a lot of ways more capitalistic than Americans are.

Joe Rogan 5:50 So what is it that they use, they, they point to when they talk, point to these Scandinavian countries? What are they using as an example of them being a shining light of socialism?

John Mackey 5:58 In some sense, they're still stuck in the '60s when Sweden did an experiment with socialism before it moved away from it. They're still living in the '60s, and yet S- they tried it (clears throat) and their economy tanked, and they-

Joe Rogan 6:11 What did they try? How'd they try it?

John Mackey 6:12 They, they...... they socialized industry. They, they, uh, they, they had government, uh, own the means of productions in most of these, uh, large corporations. And they had very high, uh, business taxes. And they ... A lot of people like Bjorn Borg is a good example. He was driven out of Sweden. Or, or Ingmar Bergman d- driven out for unbelievably high taxes, so ... Hey, just like you've been driven out of California. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:40 Yeah. I wasn't driven out of it because of that. If California was still open the way Texas is, I would have stayed. I saw the writing on the wall with, uh, m- many things. One of them was that they were closing restaurants and bars and comedy clubs, and they weren't closing them in other states. And I, I didn't, I didn't think that they were recognizing that there's, there's an impact health-wise, but there, there's also a health impact if you destroy the economy. And that, that impact ... Like you're not ... People that get COVID, most people survive.

John Mackey 7:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:14 When your economy tanks and 40-plus percent of your businesses are gone, I don't think economically you're gonna bounce back nearly as well. I think, I think it's a very dangerous place to be. Like Los Angeles right now, if you're a, a business owner, it's a dangerous place to be. Because all of a sudden governors are acting like autocrats and they're, they're ... I mean, the, the ... There was a recent ruling, right, where he lost in court because they ... he's passing legislation on his own. He's making mandates on his own that the rest of the state doesn't agree with and they're not going through the normal process.

John Mackey 7:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:54 And they've stopped him from doing that now. But look, they, they still just put ... They imposed a curfew in Los Angeles C- of 10:00 PM just to ... Just random curfew. Like what is ... H- how is that stopping? All you're doing is limiting people. You're, you're limiting f- you're not ... There's no emphasis whatsoever on strengthening people's immune system-

John Mackey 8:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:14 ... or on health, and all this emphasis on tanking the, the economy.

John Mackey 8:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:19 All this emphasis on closing businesses down. And I just saw the writing on the wall.

John Mackey 8:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:23 And I'm like, "This place is fucking doomed."

John Mackey 8:27 I think you're, I think you're telling the truth there, Joe. I agree.

Joe Rogan 8:30 I just can't believe that ... See, b- before, it didn't matter that much who your governor was or who your mayor was. When everything was going well people didn't think about it that much, you know. You would be like, "Oh, you know, the mayor, whatever the fuck his name is, he's kinda goofy. Who cares? Let's go to work." And you would just do-

John Mackey 8:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:50 ... your normal thing, go, "This is America. How bad can they fuck this up?" And then you realize in time of crisis when they assume these powers that they never had before, and then you realize how insanely hypocritical they are. Well, f- thankfully, our governor, the Governor of California, not my governor anymore, I got a Texas license now.

John Mackey 9:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:07 Give me some knuckles.

John Mackey 9:08 Congratulations.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Thank you. Um, but when ... They caught him at that restaurant, The French Laundry-

John Mackey 9:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:14 ... you know, eating with no mask on inside, no social distancing, all the things that he tells everybody to do. Tells everybody to put a mask on in between your bites of food, and then he's not doing it himself. You're like-

John Mackey 9:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:25 "Okay." This is, this is exactly like his aunt, Nancy Pelosi, when she got busted going to a beauty parlor with no mask on while they were all closed down. They ... It's rules for you, but not rules for them.

John Mackey 9:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:38 And it's, it's disgusting.

John Mackey 9:40 Right. I mean, is it really about the COVID or is it about the rules? I mean, that's really the question.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Well, w- human beings love telling people what to do.

John Mackey 9:48 They do.

Joe Rogan 9:49 They really do. And if they have a reason where they can justify that, that it seems feasible-

John Mackey 9:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:54 ... like COVID, then they just start imposing those rules.

John Mackey 9:57 And if people are frightened-

Joe Rogan 9:59 Yeah.

John Mackey 9:59 ... they're more likely to go along with those rules too.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Imagine if instead of doing what they did, imagine if they spent a lot of time telling people how to strengthen their immune system, imagine if they distributed free vitamins, imagine if they put money into keeping these hospitals well-staffed, hired more people, and maybe even possibly tried to talk about opening up alternative hospitals if there was some overflow, but allowed people to go to work, told people, "Look, wear your mask, social distance, take care of your health, take your vi- do all these things, but we can't fucking tank the economy for nine months-

John Mackey 10:37 Well-

Joe Rogan 10:37 ... and not expect disaster."

John Mackey 10:39 Well, we actually have some good examples out there, um, and even though it t- it gets a lot of criticism, the way Sweden handled it is probably again more aligned with how America might have handled it in previous decades.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Is that comparable though?

John Mackey 10:53 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 10:53 Because Sweden is so small in comparison. I mean, you have Stockholm, you have, you have some cities, but you have all these, like, small villages and people are generally healthier there too.

John Mackey 11:06 I think it's comparable in the sense that, in general, people are the best judges for what's best for themselves. I mean, government can give advice. They made recommendations to people in Sweden, they just didn't coerce them.

Joe Rogan 11:18 Yeah.

John Mackey 11:18 They just didn't force them to have a curfew here or ... Their, their kids went to school and, and, um ... People ... In general, people can make good decisions for themselves and their families. They're the ones that should be making the decisions, not the government.

Joe Rogan 11:32 100%. I couldn't agree more. And that is the difference between the way Texas approached this and the way California did. That's what drove me out of California. Yeah, the high taxes are stupid, but I liked living there. It was-

John Mackey 11:45 Because-

Joe Rogan 11:46 A lot of my friends were there.

John Mackey 11:46 'Cause there's ... Where is it more beautiful in the whole world than California? It's an amazing climate. It's, it's, it's just very, very ... Incredibly beautiful place. I love, I lo-

Joe Rogan 11:57 I got tired of running from fires too well.

John Mackey 11:58 I ... Well, that's true.

Joe Rogan 11:59 Yeah.

John Mackey 11:59 I love to, I love to visit California but-

Joe Rogan 12:01 Yeah.

John Mackey 12:01 ... I wouldn't want to live there.

Joe Rogan 12:03 The, um, the comedy community there is pretty awesome.... it's, uh, The Comedy Store and the Improv. I mean, it's just two of the best clubs in the world, and they're right in this one city. And the, the community of comedians is just fantastic. And the fact that they closed all that down-

John Mackey 12:16 W- was LA th- was-

Joe Rogan 12:16 Yeah.

John Mackey 12:16 Was it the Silicon Valley, so to speak, of com- of comedy?

Joe Rogan 12:19 Maybe better, yeah. Because Silicon Valley is... I mean, there's other parts of the world that have technology hubs, right? There's not really another comedy hub other than New York.

John Mackey 12:30 Chicago?

Joe Rogan 12:31 Not really, no.

John Mackey 12:32 No.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Chicago has Second City, which is a-

John Mackey 12:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:34 ... improv hub. It's different. You know, there's a, a great history of sketch comedy outta there, of course. You know, Second City is where, you know, Belushi came from, and a lot of great sketch comedians came from. But as far as standup-

John Mackey 12:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:47 ... it's really LA and New York. It used to be Boston had a big part of it, and Boston still has a small community. Austin has... Right here, Austin, Texas has a, a small community that's always been very good, like Kenaston and, uh, Hicks. Uh, Hicks actually came outta here.

John Mackey 13:01 Have you done standup in Austin here-

Joe Rogan 13:03 Yeah, yeah, I have.

John Mackey 13:04 ... since you've been...

Joe Rogan 13:05 Yeah. (clears throat) Yeah, I did, um, Stubb's Bar-B-Q at Chappelle last week.

John Mackey 13:08 Oh, there you go.

Joe Rogan 13:09 And then I did Vulcan Gas Company the week before. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm getting rolling again. Ultimately, I'm gonna open up a club here.

John Mackey 13:15 So you still love doing standup?

Joe Rogan 13:17 It's the most fun. It's the most fun, John.

John Mackey 13:20 I know I'm not interviewing you, but when you were like a kid-

Joe Rogan 13:23 (laughs)

John Mackey 13:23 ... were you like... Were you the class clown?

Joe Rogan 13:25 No.

John Mackey 13:26 That came later?

Joe Rogan 13:27 Yeah, yeah.

John Mackey 13:28 You were a good boy?

Joe Rogan 13:29 No, m- No, I wasn't a good boy at all.

John Mackey 13:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:31 Most of my f- friends thought I was crazy. They didn't... They'd never thought I was gonna be a comedian. Like, we... If you talked to the people that I went to high school with...

John Mackey 13:38 Now, you told me earlier that, that comedians as a, as a general rule are kinda screwed up.

Joe Rogan 13:43 Oh, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. As a general r- rule, to want to do that, to want to humiliate yourself, get on stage. And the failure, the, the bombing is some of the most intense emotional pain a person can ever subject themselves to or be subjected to.

John Mackey 14:00 Is it... Is it worse than, like, getting rejected by a girl that you're in love with?

Joe Rogan 14:04 It's like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother. That's how I usually describe it.

John Mackey 14:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:09 But he- It's different and worse because some guys would probably like doing that.

John Mackey 14:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:13 There's, there's some people that'll be like, "Watch, Mom. This is who I am." And then-

John Mackey 14:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:18 ... they would, they would enjoy it.

John Mackey 14:19 "Get over it, Mom."

Joe Rogan 14:19 Yeah. "Get over it, Mom."

John Mackey 14:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:21 No one likes bombing. Somebody might like sucking a thousand dicks in front of their mom. No one likes bombing. It's just a- an awful feeling, because you're demanding attention, and you don't deserve it. And the audience is like, "You don't deserve this atten-" And you know you don't deserve it, so you have this, like, deep self-hate. But you have to get through that to get good at it. It's an inevitable part of the whole process of doing standup.

John Mackey 14:45 Do you kinda sync up with the audience? Can you kinda tell what's gonna land that night? Do you change your, your show, so to speak, as you pick up the feeling in the audience?

Joe Rogan 14:54 Uh, you move ar- around a little, depending upon how you feel and how they feel. But, you know, you have an act, and your act is...

John Mackey 15:03 But you have a lot of different things y- a lot of things you could do.

Joe Rogan 15:06 Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of things you talk about.

John Mackey 15:08 I mean, is it... Do you, like, say, "I don't think this joke's gonna land" with this particular audience?

Joe Rogan 15:12 No. No, sometimes I'll force-feed them. (laughs)

John Mackey 15:12 You just... You go through... You go through... "They, they need to hear this."

Joe Rogan 15:17 (laughs)

John Mackey 15:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:17 It's... Y- you know, it's... It gives you an opportunity to try to figure out a better way to word it, or a better way to justify your position, or a better... or a softer way to land it.

John Mackey 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:29 You know? It's like there's al- Like, there's a lot of different weird things that are going on when you're doing comedy. Comedy is kind of like mass hypnosis. That's what it's like, in a way.

John Mackey 15:38 You know, I do a lot of public speaking, so, uh, I have learned that there's... You know, you have to sync up with the audience. And I can, I can just tell whether this is gonna land well with this particular group-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Hmm.

John Mackey 15:51 ... or whether it's not, and I d- I sort of adj- adjust on the fly. I still have a speech I'm gonna give, but I do alter it as I go along. I shorten some stuff, lengthen other stuff, and I substitute if I think that's gonna bomb out, so...

Joe Rogan 16:04 Well, I think public speaking, like what you're doing when you're standing up and, and talking about a very particular subject, is almost more open-ended, because you really never know what kinda crowd you're gonna get, whether they're gonna be in a good mood or a bad mood, whether they're bored or hot or cold. When you go to see comedy, generally people go there because they want to have fun.

John Mackey 16:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:24 So they have a good perspective when they get there. They're like, "I've come here to have fun and laugh. I hope these comedians are funny." Like, you go there with, like, a little bit of a smile on your face when you sit down. Like, "Here we go. It's gonna be fun."

John Mackey 16:35 Yeah. And so they have a predisposition to wanna laugh anyway.

Joe Rogan 16:38 Yes, yes.

John Mackey 16:39 They're not going there to judge you, they're going there to laugh and-

Joe Rogan 16:42 Some people are, but those people are, you know, they're trouble.

John Mackey 16:44 That... They, they already didn't like you before they (laughs) went there.

Joe Rogan 16:47 Yeah. Or that, you know, there's some people that, that think they're gonna, "Oh, well, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna heckle. I'm gonna show 'em what's up."

John Mackey 16:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:52 There's these, these kind of people. But g- and generally, clubs kick those people out. Really, uh, most people that come to comedy clubs, they go because it's fun. Look, I still love comedy as a, uh, a p- As an audience member. I enjoy it as a customer. It's fun.

John Mackey 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:06 I love watching great comedians. It's, it's... It feels good to laugh. I love, I love their creativity.

John Mackey 17:12 Do you learn a lot from other comedians?

Joe Rogan 17:14 Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. You learn what makes you laugh. You know, like, sometimes I'll, I'll see someone performing, and it'll give... It'll inspire me. I'm like, "Wow, that guy really put a lot into that," or, or, "Wow, her writing is so cr- is so clever." And it'll make you... It, it'll fire up your neurons. It'll get you excited.

John Mackey 17:30 Do you do your... All your own writing?

Joe Rogan 17:32 Yes. Yeah, I do all my own writing.

John Mackey 17:33 Is that common or unusual, or?

Joe Rogan 17:35 It's most... Most comedians do that, yeah. There's only a few comics that... Like, occasionally someone will give you, like, a tagline.

John Mackey 17:40 Am I giving you any material right now, Joe?

Joe Rogan 17:42 No, not yet. Not yet.

John Mackey 17:43 Okay, good.

Joe Rogan 17:43 Maybe it'll happen. (laughs) Occasionally, comedians will write taglines for each other. Like Michelle Wolf gave me a great tagline. After we did a show together the other night, she gave me a, a r- really nice tagline. I was like, "Oh," right e- right when she said it.

John Mackey 17:57 What was it?

Joe Rogan 17:57 I was like, "That's nice."

John Mackey 17:58 Is it a secret?

Joe Rogan 17:58 Can't tell you. I'll tell you later.

John Mackey 17:59 I have to, I have to pay to go to the club that-

Joe Rogan 18:00 No, I'll tell you.

John Mackey 18:01 Okay.

Joe Rogan 18:01 I just don't wanna say it online.

John Mackey 18:02 All off-

Joe Rogan 18:03 Um...

John Mackey 18:03 I didn't know you censored yourself when you were doing the show.

Joe Rogan 18:05 I'm not censoring myself, John. Why are you making me f- uncomfortable-

John Mackey 18:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:08 ... and making me sensitive?

John Mackey 18:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:11 Um, it's, uh, it's... Austin's a particularly good place to do comedy, 'cause there's a great history of standup comedy in Texas. Like, uh, Kinison, who's arguably one of the greatest of all time, you know, this is where he cut his teeth. This is where it all went together for him. So, Austin... Like, when I first started doing standup, I was selling out in Houston before I was selling out anywhere. 'Cause, uh, th- for whatever reason, they had this longing for that kind of raw comedy that you really... it's hard to get in a lot of places that are maybe a little bit too politically correct.

John Mackey 18:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:43 Like, there's certain places where they're- they're so woke they're almost like they wanna laugh, but they wanna call you out on your comedy almost as much as they wanna laugh.

John Mackey 18:52 And they don't wanna get criticized for laughing on something that's- they shouldn't laugh at.

Joe Rogan 18:57 Yeah.

John Mackey 18:57 Right?

Joe Rogan 18:58 We were- we were talking about this before the show, that- that I think-

John Mackey 19:00 They should go in disguise.

Joe Rogan 19:01 Yeah, right, like a Groucho Marx nose?

John Mackey 19:03 Exactly, exactly.

Joe Rogan 19:04 (laughs)

John Mackey 19:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:05 Glasses and mustache.

John Mackey 19:06 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 19:07 Well, you can get some great disguises today, you know? Like, with the- the prosthetics and all the stuff that they can do today. Yeah, if you wanna go to a comedy show and just laugh at the most horrible shit.

John Mackey 19:16 Maybe some of them are doing that. It's- it's-

Joe Rogan 19:18 I don't think they are, John.

John Mackey 19:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:20 I don't think people think that far in advance. Maybe, like, a very, very small percentage of the population.

John Mackey 19:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:27 Have you been to a lot of standup comedy?

John Mackey 19:29 I haven't.

Joe Rogan 19:29 No?

John Mackey 19:30 I confess. Just been working my ass off for-

Joe Rogan 19:32 I think it would be interesting for you-

John Mackey 19:34 ... a long time.

Joe Rogan 19:34 ... just from the perspective of the fact that you do a lot of these public speaking gigs. You know? Like, I think you would... I think whenever you get the chance to see someone else perform in a different way, like... I like going to see musicians.

John Mackey 19:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:45 Because I have zero talent. I have no musical talent at all. So when I go to see a musician, I can just enjoy it solely as an audience member. I don't have to remove myself from the- like- like, as a fellow comic, I'll judge someone's delivery or timing. Even though I'm trying to just enjoy it, you're- there's always gonna be a part of you that's like, "Oh, this is kind of clunky." Like, "Uh, why is he setting it up like this?" But when you go to see music, I can just enjoy someone performing.

John Mackey 20:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:13 I think I'd get something out of that.

John Mackey 20:16 I'm gonna give it another try.

Joe Rogan 20:18 (laughs) I'll tell you. I'll tell you when I'm in town next. Um, the- the- the- back to the subject of, uh, (clears throat) capitalism. Capitalism and Marxism and socialism. This, uh... Right now, we're in a wave of this, right?

John Mackey 20:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:33 It's become more popular now, uh, I- I would say over the last... Particularly during the Trump administrations.

John Mackey 20:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:39 The- the concept of socialism, at least, has become more- more publicly discussed than at- any time that I can remember in my life.

John Mackey 20:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:46 Why do you think that is?

John Mackey 20:50 I think it's because the generation that's coming up is... I mean, you have to understand the academic community is- is... I always say the intellectuals have always been the enemy of business. Uh, enemy of... Certainly the ene- ene- enemy of capitalism. And-

Joe Rogan 21:06 But why is that?

John Mackey 21:07 I think because in a- in a market society, uh, (clears throat) which has been rare in history, we haven't mostly had market societies, but they're not very important in a market society. Uh, th-

Joe Rogan 21:19 The intellectuals aren't very important?

John Mackey 21:21 Generally not as important, no.

Joe Rogan 21:22 But aren't they the ones that inspire the minds of the people that create and- and maybe innovate in the industry?

John Mackey 21:28 They don't have the same social status that the entrepreneurs have.

Joe Rogan 21:33 Oh.

John Mackey 21:33 An Elon Musk or s- or a Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos. These guys-

Joe Rogan 21:37 So, you think it's an ego issue? The social status issue?

John Mackey 21:41 Th- think about it this way. If you- you're- you're going to school, okay? And the people that end up teaching in the universities were always the smartest kids in the school, generally. And they- and they did well in school. I mean, smart in terms of doing well in school. And they go on to college and then they- they- they go and get a PhD and then they- they... That's all they've known, is school. That's- that's been their universe, right?

Joe Rogan 22:00 Right.

John Mackey 22:01 And they excelled at it. And they were smarter than the other kids in school. And now these other kids, they- they go to college and they get a degree in business and they're in a fraternity and- and they g- make a lot of friends and relationships and they g- and they make more money than the intellectuals do. And that seems like that's completely unfair. It's an unjust world that this... Less smart people are making more money than the smart people do, and they have more status in the society. And I think- I think that's under- under- underlying it is a resentment or an envy of a society that doesn't judge them to be as important as they judge themselves.

Joe Rogan 22:39 That- that's interesting, but I think it's a very flawed perspective. It... And first of all, the- the term smart is a weird term, right?

John Mackey 22:46 I said smart in terms of school.

Joe Rogan 22:47 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 22:47 I didn't say in terms of street smarts-

Joe Rogan 22:49 Yeah.

John Mackey 22:49 ... or ability to do things, to connect with people. Uh, there's emotional intelligence. I'm merely saying they're good at taking tests, writing papers, uh, abstracting thoughts, essentially. Uh-

Joe Rogan 23:01 Yeah, but this is what I'm saying. That... Just the term smart, it's almost like... The problem is it's like a blanket term, right? It's like drugs. You know, it g- applies to a bunch of different things that don't necessarily seem to be related. But the people that are interested in that pursue that. The fact that they can't understand that there's an intel- like... Elon Musk is a great example. If you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent, you're either d- d- not- you're in-

John Mackey 23:30 You're not very intelligent yourself-

Joe Rogan 23:31 Yeah.

John Mackey 23:31 ... if you don't think Elon Musk is intelligent.

Joe Rogan 23:32 You're delusional-

John Mackey 23:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:33 ... or you're a liar or you're in denial.

John Mackey 23:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:36 It's- it's one of those things. "Is something wrong with the way you think?" He's clearly intelligent, but there's people that call him a fool and that... Like, the guy's running, like, four different businesses simultaneously. They're all successful. And he's innovating, uh, with- when it comes to space travel in a way that you would assume that someone would have to dedicate most of their life just singularly to that task to be able to figure out, past NASA, how to shoot a rocket up into space and have it land-

John Mackey 24:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:03 ... and then reuse it. No one's been able to do that besides him, or up until he did it. And I- I think-... uh, Jeff Bezos' company is doing the same thing-

John Mackey 24:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:11 ... too now.

John Mackey 24:11 Mm-hmm. Blue Origin.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Yeah.

John Mackey 24:13 They're, they're obviously two of the great entrepreneurs of-

Joe Rogan 24:15 Yeah.

John Mackey 24:16 ... this particular era.

Joe Rogan 24:17 But I don't think Jeff Bezos is actually engineering these things.

John Mackey 24:20 But if you think about it, the, the intellectuals have always disliked business. They've always discriminated against the merchant classes, the Jews in the West, Chinese in the East. There's really been no historical period where intellectuals praised business. Maybe a little bit around the time of Adam Smith, up until probably Ricardo and Malthus wrote in the early-19th century. The, there... Is, is for the most part, business people have been seen, they're disruptive, they change things, they upset the status quo, they're, they in- they innovate. Well, a lot of people don't like innovations. It's threatening, it changes, uh, it changes social status, it changes wealth, relationships. Uh, the... It's almost like, uh, capitalism is like a genie that got out of the bottle and they're trying very hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle as much as they can. And I think if you think about it that way, you'll understand we're never gonna win the intellectuals over. I mean, I speak in universities all the time and the students... I'm an entrepreneur, I self-identify that way. Students love when I talk about conscious capitalism because I say, "You can do good and you can do well. There's no contradiction here. You're not... You're the good guys here. You're not the bad guys."

Joe Rogan 25:28 Do you debate people about this, or have you-

John Mackey 25:29 I do. I de- I've debated a number of socialists.

Joe Rogan 25:32 And what are, what are, what is their primary argument?

John Mackey 25:35 Their primary argument is, is that business is greedy and selfish, and it's about motivations. That, that they, that business people have the wrong motivations. In a lot of ways, conscious capitalism is an answer to that. It's a complete answer to that because in the book, and in Conscious Leadership as well, we're basically arguing that business isn't primarily about maximizing profits. Business is primarily about creating value for other people, and through creating value for other people, you do make a profit. But it's the value creation that comes first. The profits come second in exchange, right? And it's almost if you are creating value, then you are profitable. And then, you can reinvest those profits and you, and you have this upwards spiral. Um, so that's, that... Business has this potential for a higher purpose, it's not primarily about greed. Greed is found in human nature, Joe. It's not just found in business people. There are plenty of greedy governmental officials, plenty of greedy politicians, greedy lawyers. Greed is endemic to the human nature of business people, either have no more or no less than it. It's just part of who we are.

Joe Rogan 26:41 Has anyone ever laid it out in a way that's very compelling? Like, when you have these debates with socialists and someone l- has anyone ever laid it out in a way where they have a point where you see their point?

John Mackey 26:53 You always... The best way to do a debate is completely understand the other side's position.

Joe Rogan 26:58 Yeah.

John Mackey 26:58 U-understand it as good or better than they understand it. And so, I've read widely in socialistic literature. I think I do understand it. It's, it's, it's a type of utopianism. It's a, it's an attempt to change human nature. If we would all be... If we would all love each other and if we'd all share equally, uh, then the world would be a better place.

Joe Rogan 27:20 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 27:20 And hey, guess what? It probably would be if, if we were naturally that way, but we're not naturally that way. We, we look first generally for ourselves and our own families and then our, and our growing circle of relationships that we develop. We want... We don't... It's not natural to... It's natural to want your own children to have advantages. That's, that's just human nature to want your children to flourish because you, you raised them, you love them. And somehow or another, to say that's unfair is cutting against human nature. People are always gonna look for, for advantages or privileges, so to speak, for their children.

Joe Rogan 27:53 Yeah, people don't like when people have advantages and have, and, and have victories, because then someone has to lose. And when someone loses, they equate that someone losing with a bad feeling, with th- that person being victimized. Like, there's some-

John Mackey 28:08 All right. So here's a big idea we talk about in Conscious Leadership. We have a chapter called Find Win-Win-Win Solutions. The metaphors that we use to think about society tend to be very binary. Good versus evil. Um, light versus darkness. Win versus lose. And so, they tend to think of business as a win-lose game. Somebody wins and somebody else is losing. But the beauty of capitalism is, it's a win-win-win game. It's an infinite game. It's a game because the customers are winning or they wouldn't trade. The employees are winning. How are the customers winning? They're getting products and services at a, at a... And, and, and there's competition to make those services and products better. Uh, the employees are winning because they have jobs and opportunities, uh, to grow, benefits are paid. And they do that voluntarily. They're not forced to work for any particular company. They do it because they think it's in their best interest. Win for the employees. The suppliers who are trading with the business, they're winning as well or they wouldn't make the exchanges. Investors are winning or they wouldn't make the investments. And the larger society is winning because business is the engine that creates all the money that goes into non-profits and governments. Without business, there is no government and there is no (laughs) , and there is no, uh, non-profit sector because those are ultimately supplied through what business creates. So business is a win-win-win game. All of these stakeholders are winning, and that's why capitalism lifts society up. Socialism is an attempt to reverse that back to a win-lose game, and that's why it always fails. And that's why capitalism always wins.

Joe Rogan 29:45 How is it an attempt to b- bring it back to a win-lose game? In what way?

John Mackey 29:49 It, it... The, the ones that are winning, so to speak, the business people are clamped down, so they're not allowed to win. It's like, "We're gonna take your success and we're gonna redistribute it." So that... 'Cause again, you said earlier on, "Incentives matter, but we're, we're gonna take away the incentives for business to really flourish and succeed." But they should do it from altruistic reasons. And we may do some things for altruistic reasons, but you cannot build a society around it.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Do... When you're talking about win-win-win, this is a very... In many ways, it's... I, I see what you're saying, but...... there are l- things that are negative that are associated with profit and innovation, and particularly expanding industry, right? For particularly, uh, environmental impacts. Like, when you talk... When you say win, win, win, like, there's n- there's very f- rarely, when you're... Especially when you're dealing with creating and designing and building things, you've got a negative impact in some way, environmentally.

John Mackey 30:50 T- two points. Um, first of all, historically, socialism has been far worse, worse polluter than, than capitalist countries.

Joe Rogan 30:58 How so?

John Mackey 30:58 Well, if you just look at the environmental destruction that the Soviet Union left behind, it, it was a complete disaster.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Right. But that's... This, this is socialism done wrong, John. We're gonna do it right here.

John Mackey 31:08 Who has done it right, Joe?

Joe Rogan 31:09 (laughs) No one.

John Mackey 31:09 No one's done it right.

Joe Rogan 31:11 No one.

John Mackey 31:11 And h-

Joe Rogan 31:11 But the Soviet Union's a bad example.

John Mackey 31:12 No, all-

Joe Rogan 31:13 Because Stalin was...

John Mackey 31:13 Yeah. But all of Eastern Europe were... There, there's no incentive to protect the common good in socialism, and they don't. When the government has a monopoly of all decision and power-making, they don't tend to look out for the environment. That's one of the myths.

Joe Rogan 31:28 You also take away agency from people, and you, you take away their desire to improve and do better. And without incentive, people just don't perform the same way.

John Mackey 31:38 But the beautiful thing about business... Let's concede a partial truth to what you said, that there will be unintended negative consequences, as you say, environmentally. Well, that's why you have to regulate business to a certain extent. That's why you have to make people responsible for their environmental pollutants. And b- because bu- business innovates and has an incentive to innovate, um, business can innovate and create solutions to those environmental problems.

Joe Rogan 32:07 Okay. Let me stop you there for a second. When you say, "Make people responsible for their environmental pollutants," then we're, we're gonna have to deal with another aspect of capitalism. And that's the, the effect that special interest groups and lobbyists have on politicians, because they create laws that shield these big businesses from consequences from these negative actions. So by saying that they have to clean up their problem, the only way that's ever going to happen is if they're not protected, if they don't use that influence and money...

John Mackey 32:37 Totally agree.

Joe Rogan 32:38 So this is where I think a lot of people have a, a valid argument against capitalism.

John Mackey 32:45 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 32:45 Like, capitalism has kind of fucked over our, our, our, our system of government in a way, because money has gotten so deeply involved with super PACs and lobbyists. And there's so much money involved that it changes the way we, we govern things.

John Mackey 33:02 Is that a flaw of capitalism, or is that a flaw of government?

Joe Rogan 33:05 I think it's a flaw of government, but that government has been influenced by capitalism, by capitalism's desire for universal growth, for constant growth.

John Mackey 33:15 The... The sad truth is that humanity is not perfectible. We can never create the perfect system. And the attempt to create the perfect system... The perfect just doesn't mean any good.

Joe Rogan 33:27 Right.

John Mackey 33:27 Capitalism is not perfect. It does not... Because human choices and what people want varies. People t- Uh, capitalism will sell cigarettes to people because that's what people want. It gives them pleasure, but it's bad for their health, but they're, they're giving people what they want. It's, it's the same thing in, in any type of externality. That's not, that's not deliberately done to harm the society. It's sort of a by-product.

Joe Rogan 33:54 Right. But this is why win, win, win doesn't really work.

John Mackey 33:57 It's-

Joe Rogan 33:57 It's not really win, win, win. It's win most of the time, but with some negative consequences that are better than the alternative, right?

John Mackey 34:04 But what you strive for is to, is to take those externalities or those negative consequences and try to, through good government, to, to minimize them or lessen them. I'll give you an example. So you used to live in LA. Well, when I went to LA back in the early '80s, it was like going to New Delhi today. I couldn't see. My lungs hurt less than 24 hours.

Joe Rogan 34:27 Right.

John Mackey 34:28 But through good regulations, the air in LA is a fraction as polluted as it was 40 years ago. We have been able to clean it up. That is an example of how you can take the worst impacts of industrialization and, and ameliorate them or lessen them.

Joe Rogan 34:42 What do you think about the government of LA's decision, or the governor, governor of California, rather's decision to eliminate all sales of combustion engine cars after 2035?

John Mackey 34:56 It's easy to... Uh, my first thought is, is that a lot of times people make these proclamations in the future that they'll never be around to see the ultimate that actually realized, meaning that it'll be somebody else's problem then. So it's... A politician will make promises and claims for the future that they won't themselves ever deliver on.

Joe Rogan 35:18 Yeah.

John Mackey 35:19 So I, I think that's well-intentioned in terms of lessening environmental, um, externalities from the internal combustion engine or from, um, carbon production. However, is it realistic? Is it possible? I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 35:36 Well, there's also people that argue that's it's not even well-intentioned. If you look at the actual impact of dragging minerals out of the ground to make these batteries, that the production of electric cars, it's, it's not a zero impact on the environment at all. It's like there's profound impacts.

John Mackey 35:57 There, there is...... there's no escape. You know, humanity, ever since humanity's been around, Joe, it's had a negative impact on the environment.

Joe Rogan 36:03 Right.

John Mackey 36:04 If, if ... The hunters and gatherers wiped out most of the large animal species that they could that were wild. Uh, they did it everywhere they went. They did it in Europe, they did it in North America, they did it in Australia. Uh, agriculture is when you take under, a lot of land under cultivation, you're gonna, you're gonna mow down, uh, the jungles. And if you're gonna graze cattle, that's gonna have a negative impact on the environment. There's no escaping human- humanity's impact on the environment. It's always gonna be there, because guess what? We're part of the environment. Um, the question is, how do we ... It, you can create the win-win-win. You just can't create perfection. We're alwa- we solve some problems, and then when new problems come up, every generation has to begin to solve the problems of the p- the problems that the parents couldn't solve.

Joe Rogan 36:50 I agree with you that capitalism is a better alternative. And I agree because of all the things that we talked about, that it gives more incentive, that the, that having innovation and having these incentives creates better alternatives for people in terms of, like, how to live their life. It gives them, um, in, in terms of medicine and in terms of, uh, what, what's going on in the medical industry, saving far more lives, fixing far more people that have been injured. And I, I agree with all those things. I just think that sometimes we tend to l- we wanna put things in these very simplistic packages, like win, win, win. And I don't necessarily think that's a, a ...

John Mackey 37:28 Win, win, win is, it's an ethical framework that you can use to think about situations.

Joe Rogan 37:33 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 37:33 Like you and I have met today, so we can create win-wins between each other, you know, reciprocity. I, you, in fact, we're probably doing that right now. I have a new book that I love people to read.

Joe Rogan 37:48 And you gave me some vegan cheese.

John Mackey 37:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:51 (laughs)

John Mackey 37:51 And you, you're not paying me anything to come on your show, and I usually get a lot of money during I, when I speak, so it's a win-win. We're both gaining, or we wouldn't be doing this exchange.

Joe Rogan 37:58 Who pays you to, to speak? Like, what, generally, um, is it, uh, these, uh, business conferences where people wanna learn about ...

John Mackey 38:04 Mostly, mostly business conferences.

Joe Rogan 38:05 So people wanna learn how you did it-

John Mackey 38:07 Trade sh- trade shows, trade shows. Mostly ... Um, one guy told me one time, he said, um, he was really honest, he said ... This was a few years ago, and he said, and he ... There were, like, three pretty well-known business speakers, including myself, and, uh, and I said, "How did you get all three of us?" And he said, "Your, all three were a lot cheaper than Hillary." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:30 (laughs)

John Mackey 38:32 And the point is-

Joe Rogan 38:33 And cleaner.

John Mackey 38:34 And he told me, he said, "Look, it's simple. We have a trade show. They're mostly gonna be on the floor. This is the one time I can get everybody in around the industry, because they'll come in to hear you speak or to hear the other speakers. So we're paying you to put pe- to put butts in the seats so we can hold our trade show together."

Joe Rogan 38:51 Hmm.

John Mackey 38:52 So it, it, that's a win-win. It's good for me. They're paying me money. It's good for them. We're getting butts in the seats to listen to their, to their trade show spiel. Um ...

Joe Rogan 39:01 And also, you want to give people this frame-

John Mackey 39:04 I, I wanna get my message out there.

Joe Rogan 39:06 Yeah.

John Mackey 39:06 I wanna get my message out there about conscious capitalism.

Joe Rogan 39:08 This message, is this something that you have sort of developed over the years of arguing with people about it?

John Mackey 39:14 No, it's mostly from, uh, what we did at Whole Foods, 'cause I had no background in business, right? I'm, I'm, I'm an entrepreneur. I didn't, I-

Joe Rogan 39:22 You guys started here, right?

John Mackey 39:24 In Austin, that's right. My first store here 40, over 42 years ago now.

Joe Rogan 39:27 Jesus, you look great.

John Mackey 39:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:29 How old are you?

John Mackey 39:30 67.

Joe Rogan 39:31 You look very good.

John Mackey 39:32 Well, thank you.

Joe Rogan 39:33 I can tell you right now.

John Mackey 39:33 See, look, win, win, win.

Joe Rogan 39:34 You're holding up well.

John Mackey 39:34 We're a win-win relationship here.

Joe Rogan 39:35 You're eating all that Whole Foods foods.

John Mackey 39:37 I'm eating all that healthy Whole Foods.

Joe Rogan 39:38 That is one thing that you guys did do that's very interesting, right? You created a market where ... Like, if you tell people, "I go to Whole Foods," y- you know, so people are like, "Oh, well, you care about your health." Like, you're, it's synonymous with healthy foods, even in the name.

John Mackey 39:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:55 Whole Foods.

John Mackey 39:56 That was our brand when we were up-and-comer, and then when we got really rich ... America loves the up-and-comer.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 40:04 But then once you have become really successful and you're making a lot of money, they start to turn on you.

Joe Rogan 40:08 Oh, no.

John Mackey 40:09 Well, we became Whole Paycheck.

Joe Rogan 40:11 Who wrote, who said that?

John Mackey 40:12 I don't know, but whoever did, I wish they-

Joe Rogan 40:14 I never saw it.

John Mackey 40:15 You know?

Joe Rogan 40:15 I never saw that until right now. You just shit on yourself-

John Mackey 40:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:18 ... in a way that I never e- all I heard was Whole Foods. I never heard Whole Paycheck.

John Mackey 40:22 (laughs) Uh, then you, you, your team didn't do good research. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:24 Ah, I have no team. So does this when you sold to Amazon?

John Mackey 40:28 No, no, the Whole Paycheck thing has been around for a long time. Uh-

Joe Rogan 40:31 Oh, 'cause Whole Paycheck meaning 'cause it's so expensive.

John Mackey 40:33 Yes, because initially, when we were up-and-comer, you, if you shopped at Whole Foods, you were showing everybody you were sort of, you were with it.

Joe Rogan 40:40 Environmentally conscious and-

John Mackey 40:41 Yes, and you were hip and cool.

Joe Rogan 40:42 Right.

John Mackey 40:42 And then the narrative went sour because it's like, um, it's you're a fool for shopping there, because you can get the same food cheaper elsewhere. So you're going to Whole Paycheck.

Joe Rogan 40:51 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 40:52 So the narrative turned, uh, negative, so to speak.

Joe Rogan 40:55 Hmm.

John Mackey 40:56 I still see that pretty much all the time. Although, since our merger with Amazon, we've cut our prices many, many times.

Joe Rogan 41:02 How'd you do that?

John Mackey 41:03 Amazon allowed Whole Foods to think long term again. We needed to cut our prices, but when you're a public company, if you're selling something for a dollar and you say, "You know what? We need to sell this for 90 cents," and you start selling it for 90 cents, in the short run, you just cut your sales 10% 'cause you're just not selling any more of it. Over the long term, people will realize, "Man, I can get a good deal for 90 cents. I used to pay a buck for it." And they start to shop with you more, and, and your s- your sales will go up.

Joe Rogan 41:29 Hmm.

John Mackey 41:29 But when you're a public company and the market's very short term oriented, you pay a heavy price in the short term for reducing your prices. And Amazon is willing to think long term and let Whole Foods do that.

Joe Rogan 41:40 'Cause Jeff Bezos got that long money, son.

John Mackey 41:42 He has a long money because he's had-

Joe Rogan 41:45 (laughs)

John Mackey 41:45 ... he's had a lot of brilliant ideas and put together a pretty g- pretty good team.

Joe Rogan 41:49 Yeah, uh, what keeps that guy working? When you, when you have 150 in the bank, 150 billion, what keeps you going?

John Mackey 41:56 Well, most of it, he has it in, doesn't have it in the bank. He's got it in stock.

Joe Rogan 41:59 Probably got a few in the bank.

John Mackey 42:00 He's got a few in the bank, probably.

Joe Rogan 42:02 I feel like he could probably relax.

John Mackey 42:03 I mean, I think, I, I think the same thing that keeps me going at age 67. I mean-... uh, building something's great fun. Uh, building Whole Foods, I don't, I mean, I've got plenty of money, Joe. I don't need to work. I just like it. It's fun.

Joe Rogan 42:16 Do you still run Whole Foods? Like, what's your relationship there?

John Mackey 42:19 Still CEO.

Joe Rogan 42:19 Still CEO?

John Mackey 42:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:21 So, you still work long hours?

John Mackey 42:23 I don't work as long today as I did when I was in my 20s and 30s. There's no question about it, 'cause I was putting a lot of 80-hour weeks in-

Joe Rogan 42:30 Geez.

John Mackey 42:30 ... year, after year, after year, after year. No, you're building some- You know, it wasn't work, it was play.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Yeah.

John Mackey 42:36 I was having a blast. It was fun.

Joe Rogan 42:38 Elon Musk has famously said that if you're in a tech startup and you're not working 120-hour weeks, you won't succeed.

John Mackey 42:45 Yeah. I've never been in his tech startup, so I can't speak for that. The grocery business wasn't quite that hard, but we did put a lot of 80-hour weeks in.

Joe Rogan 42:51 That seems like not a lot of time to sleep. (laughs)

John Mackey 42:54 And I'm a great believer in sleep. Sleep is how you-

Joe Rogan 42:56 How do ... Y- Like, how many hours are left? How many hours are in a week?

John Mackey 43:00 Well, let's see. There's 24 hours ... Uh, w- 168 hours a week.

Joe Rogan 43:05 168 hours a week?

John Mackey 43:05 So, he's only got 48 hours to sleep.

Joe Rogan 43:07 That is ridiculous, Elon. How dare you?

John Mackey 43:09 So that's, uh ... Well, I, I don't know. If you, all you did was ... That's 48 hours divided by 7. That's almost 7 hours a night. If all you did was work and sleep. I don't know when he eats. Maybe you have to eat when you're working.

Joe Rogan 43:19 You definitely have to eat. I would re-

John Mackey 43:21 When you're working.

Joe Rogan 43:21 ... I would recommend eating.

John Mackey 43:22 And you, you gotta go to the bathroom sometime.

Joe Rogan 43:24 Yeah.

John Mackey 43:24 You gotta scratch that out.

Joe Rogan 43:25 So, you sleep seven hours a night and just stay at work?

John Mackey 43:30 Yeah. I, I don't actually think ... I, I ... You have to put a lot of energy in to build anything.

Joe Rogan 43:34 Yes.

John Mackey 43:34 But, um, if you're doing it right ... We talk a lot about conscious capitalism is about higher purpose. If you have a purpose that's animating you, it doesn't feel like work, it feels like play, it also attracts people to you that share that same purpose.

Joe Rogan 43:47 This is something that I find very frustrating in people, that don't recognize that it is incredibly difficult to build a successful business when they just wanna tax the shit out of people and take all that money. Like, do you think it's easy to make something like Whole Foods? Do you think it's easy to make a company like Tesla? Do you think it's e- ? It's not easy. It's an insanely difficult task. That's why most people don't do it.

John Mackey 44:09 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 44:09 But when someone does do it, and they have become successful, then other people start looking at it and go, "Well, they have all this money. They should contribute more," or, "They should do this," or ... You know, you're talking about, uh, p- some people have, uh, suggested some extraordinary tax rates in order to get us out of this current recession. And, uh, uh, then, I talk to businesspeople and they say, "That is the exact wrong approach, because that's actually gonna stifle business, and business is the only thing that's gonna bring us out of this." If you incentivize businesses to take risks and to be open and to make more profits, then more people are gonna get jobs, then the economy bounces back. But if you give them a gigantic tax burden, they're gonna be less likely to take chances, they're not going to be able to survive, th- and, and people on the outside who've never built a business like Whole Foods, they don't seem to see that.

John Mackey 45:05 They don't see it. Um, the reality is, is that people like an Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, um, they are, they're good capital allocators, so to speak. They are not gonna waste that money. That money's gonna be reinvested to create new and more dynamic businesses that will help ... Uh, the innovations will help our society move forward. When you just redistribute that money, it, there's no more additional innovation. It's just, it's just, it's being consumed. This whole idea that it's consumption that drives the economy is fundamentally, uh, a myth. It's mostly creativity and innovation that drives the economy. So, we need to keep that money in the hands of our most creative people, which are entrepreneurs, uh, creative businesspeople. And, uh, for some reason, I probably, I think because of envy, it seems so unfair. Again, we own a win-lose model. If Jeff Bezos has $150 billion, then that's unfair. In some sort of cosmic way, that's unfair. And they believe that somehow or another, others have less. So, there's like, this fixed pie, and Jeff took a big piece of it-

Joe Rogan 46:15 Hmm.

John Mackey 46:15 ... or, or, or, or Elon Musk has taken a big piece of it. But it's not a fixed pie. That's the wrong metaphor. Innovationism is continually growing the pie. And in fact, humanity is demonstrably better off because of the capitalists, because of the innovationists.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Let me play devil's advocate, 'cause this is the way they look at it. They would say, "Well, when you get to that sort of a position, like a Jeff Bezos, where you have $150 billion, you can exert your influence on people in a way that's detrimental to society. You've achieved too high of a position. You have too much power, and you will probably lose- use that power to loosen regulations, to, uh, bribe politicians or influence politicians and to get laws passed that are better for your business and stifle competition."

John Mackey 47:02 I think that's a powerful argument. And if and when it happens, you have to push back against, you have to resist it. I think most businesspeople are not doing that. I think ... I don't see that Jeff's trying to pass or, you know, I, or I don't see mo- y- I don't see Jeff trying to pass laws that-

Joe Rogan 47:18 No, I don't think he is either.

John Mackey 47:19 ... favor Amazon. I think-

Joe Rogan 47:19 I'm not saying he is.

John Mackey 47:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:20 If he was, boy, would they come after him.

John Mackey 47:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:21 'Cause he's balling so hard.

John Mackey 47:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:23 They'd be like, "That motherfucker who has, doesn't have enough?"

John Mackey 47:26 But I know that before, when Whole Foods was ... We were a public company for 25 years and, uh, we, we had the government go after us a few times. Uh-

Joe Rogan 47:34 For?

John Mackey 47:35 Well, they tried to stop our ... We tried to make an acquisition of a, of a company called Wild Oats back in 2007. We actually made the acquisition, but the FTC tried to stop it. We ended up going into court with them and we actually won in court. And very interesting, the FTC has their own court. And they s- after we won in the federal courts, they said, "Well, now we wanna take you into the, our court, the administrative court."

Joe Rogan 47:56 Oh. Terrific. They have their own court?

John Mackey 47:57 They ha- they had their own court.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Don't you wish you had your own court? I-

John Mackey 47:59 Take you to Whole Foods court, motherfucker. (laughs) I'll take the FTC to the Whole Foods court.

Joe Rogan 48:04 Dumb. Dumb. Right?

John Mackey 48:04 But, you know-

Joe Rogan 48:05 Like, the People's Court.

John Mackey 48:06 ... y- uh, you don't win in the FTC court. You don't win in that court. So-

Joe Rogan 48:08 Well, how many people have won in that court?

John Mackey 48:11 I think when I looked at it-

Joe Rogan 48:13 Zero?

John Mackey 48:13 ... at that time, this was back in 2007, I think 46 of the 48 previous cases, this is from memory so I could be wrong, had lost.

Joe Rogan 48:20 They should go to court.

John Mackey 48:21 So-

Joe Rogan 48:21 Someone should take them to court.

John Mackey 48:22 But here's the thing. I asked our attorney, he said, "Okay, we're gonna lose in this court," in their court. Then what happens? He says, "Well, then you appeal that back to the federal courts." And, and then after that, if they want to, they would go to the Supreme Court if they'll take it. I said, "How much is it gonna cost me to just fight them in their own courts?" They said, "It's gonna cost you $30 million-" (explosion sound) "... in legal fees." Not to mention a lot of executive time. It's like-

Joe Rogan 48:42 Oh.

John Mackey 48:42 ... man, $30 million and we know we're gonna lose, and then we're gonna have to spend another $30 million to go to the appeals and beyond that. The lawyers love it, by the way. They-

Joe Rogan 48:50 Of course.

John Mackey 48:51 They want you to do it.

Joe Rogan 48:52 Like divorce lawyers.

John Mackey 48:53 Yes, exactly. They-

Joe Rogan 48:54 They love it.

John Mackey 48:54 ... let's have people fight because they're-

Joe Rogan 48:55 You guys should not talk.

John Mackey 48:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:58 Don't talk this out.

John Mackey 48:59 Don't try to work this out 'cause he's gonna try to-

Joe Rogan 49:00 No, no, no. You don't want mediation.

John Mackey 49:01 He's gonna try to steal your money. He's gonna-

Joe Rogan 49:02 Yeah.

John Mackey 49:02 ... try to steal that money from you.

Joe Rogan 49:03 He's a piece of shit. Look at him. Look at him! Um-

John Mackey 49:06 So again-

Joe Rogan 49:07 So what did you do? You wound up settling?

John Mackey 49:09 We ended up ... Yes, we ended up, they let the merger go through, and we agreed to sell off a bunch of stores.

Joe Rogan 49:14 Ugh.

John Mackey 49:14 And that was, that was the best we could do.

Joe Rogan 49:17 How many stores did you have to sell off?

John Mackey 49:19 Uh, we, we put up about 30 for sale. And, and we-

Joe Rogan 49:25 I think that-

John Mackey 49:25 ... and we, we only about, about, I don't know, I think five or six, we sold about five or six.

Joe Rogan 49:30 When someone is involved in that kind of a fucked up scenario where you bring them to FTC court where no one wins, if you do win, like ultimately in Supreme Court, they, they should take it out of the salary of the people that forced you into doing that. It should be worth it for you to go to war.

John Mackey 49:49 Those rich guys should make the government do that with all their power.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Yeah.

John Mackey 49:53 You know, if the rich guys are so powerful-

Joe Rogan 49:55 (laughs)

John Mackey 49:55 ... how come we have such high tax rates?

Joe Rogan 49:57 Uh, 'cause you make a lot of money. But don't you shield it? Didn't Donald Trump pay like 700 bucks in taxes?

John Mackey 50:03 Uh, I don't know what he paid in taxes 'cause we never actually saw his ... We just heard what The-

Joe Rogan 50:08 Right.

John Mackey 50:08 ... New York Times said he paid, but we don't really know for sure 'cause we never really saw the taxes released.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Well, The New York Times would never lie.

John Mackey 50:13 But-

Joe Rogan 50:13 (laughs)

John Mackey 50:15 (laughs) Of course not.

Joe Rogan 50:16 Isn't that funny that that's a funny thing to say now? Boy, that used to be ... Like if you said that in 1980, people would agree with you.

John Mackey 50:23 Depends on who you say it to today.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Well, there's a lot of dummies that think The New York Times would never lie today, but they've been caught lying, unfortunately.

John Mackey 50:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:31 There's a problem with journalism in particular today. And it's that it's not just journalism now, it's business that is sort of in a very fucked up place, where sensationalism is very important to the business model.

John Mackey 50:46 Yeah, the click, the clickthroughs, the clickbaits.

Joe Rogan 50:49 Very important.

John Mackey 50:49 It's very important.

Joe Rogan 50:50 Nobody's buying physical copies anymore, so they can't just rely on subscriptions.

John Mackey 50:55 Yeah. Did you, did you see that recent documentary, The Social Dilemma?

Joe Rogan 50:58 Yes, I did.

John Mackey 50:59 That was kinda creepy.

Joe Rogan 51:00 I had Tristan Harris on the podcast a couple weeks ago.

John Mackey 51:03 Yeah, really?

Joe Rogan 51:03 Yeah.

John Mackey 51:04 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 51:05 Yeah, it's, uh, very disturbing.

John Mackey 51:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:07 Because you see how this all plays out. And you're, you know, you're seeing it right now online with, uh, the election results.

John Mackey 51:13 We are.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Yeah, you're-

John Mackey 51:15 Civil war. It looks like we're heading towards civil war.

Joe Rogan 51:16 Yeah. And the ... And then you have, like, the real wacky sections of both ... You know, you have the QAnons on one side and the Antifas on the other side. And, like, ugh, it's so nuts. Like ...

John Mackey 51:31 It is crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy.

Joe Rogan 51:34 That Sidney Powell lady, she seems unhinged.

John Mackey 51:37 Uh, we'll see what she ... Can deliver the goods or not.

Joe Rogan 51:40 I'm very curious to see how this all plans out, or pans out rather. But, uh, it just ... You know, it just seems like the most divided I can ever remember this country being.

John Mackey 51:53 Definitely in my lifetime, the most divided.

Joe Rogan 51:55 Which is exactly what they were talking about in The Social Dilemma. And they're, they were literally saying that what's happening with these algorithms, what's happening with these echo chambers that people are involved with in social media, what's happening with the way it- ... The way it influences the mind to gravitate towards these things that upset people and to rile people up and get people more and more interested in these particular polarizing subjects, that loo- ... We're headed towards almost like a civil war.

John Mackey 52:25 Yeah. You know, of course, I do th- ... While I think The Social Dilemma is a good movie and a lot to learn from it, I do think it, um, it overstates it. In our, in our book Conscious Leadership, we talk about cultural intelligence in the book, particularly the very last part of the appendix, and we talk about how there, there are three major types of worldviews that exist in the United States that are, that are clashing with each other. The first one is more of a traditional worldview, uh, of, uh, heritage values that, that, um, might be traditional Christianity or traditional Judaism, combined with, um, uh, uh, belief in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, uh, sort of very traditional values. And y- ... And, uh, and then you have the modernist worldview, which is science, rationality, uh, capitalism, success, uh, getting ahead. Um, and that's the second. And now we have a progressive worldview that hasn't been around that long, but it's, it's a third major worldview. And I think statistically we think about 30% of the population is in, uh, the, uh, traditional worldview, about 50% is in the modernist worldview, and about, uh, 20% is in the progressive worldview. And these, all these worldviews are struggling with each other to dominate, to have their values-

Joe Rogan 53:50 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 53:50 ... become the law of the land. And everybody must conform with their values because their values are correct. So that, that's ... That ... We think that's the essence of this cultural struggle going on. And we, we need ... And we argue in the book that there's a fourth, uh, we call t-... post-progressivism, which basically recognizes all the values have good things about them and they have some bad things about them, right? So they have dignities and disasters. And if we're gonna, if we're gonna get through it, we need conscious leaders who will be able to, uh, take the, the, the best things about each one of these worldviews and integrate them together so that we can give each of the worldviews enough to feel like this is a society worth belonging to. If we try to cram one set of values down everybody else's throats and force that into law, we're gonna have a civil war, 'cause America's not gonna stand for it.

Joe Rogan 54:37 Yeah, I like that perspective, that there are good things and bad things about these sides. And that's one of the, the things we were talking about, like, that we're so polarized today.

John Mackey 54:47 And something you were talking about with capitalism, because you were saying, "Hey, John, it's not perfect."

Joe Rogan 54:51 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 54:51 The... And capitalism is a modernistic, uh, uh, sort of part of the modernistic worldview, and it's not perfect. There are pr- problems and challenges with it. But the dignities of it are tremendous, and they... We can't throw out the baby with the bathwater just because it's not perfect, because there is no perfect solution to any of these problems. We're gonna muddle our way through like we always do.

Joe Rogan 55:14 Is... Now, when you look at the positive aspects of all these different schools of thought, and you look at, uh, progressivism, which is the one that is probably the most on the rise, uh, today-

John Mackey 55:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:27 ... why is it the most on the rise? Like, what do you think? When you say you look at both sides of things.

John Mackey 55:32 You might, you might say that, uh, y- you can see each of these worldviews, um, uh, comes out of the previous worldview. So if you go back 200 years ago, 250 years ago, the modernist worldview was just being born. The, the founding fathers of our country were early modernists, people like Franklin and Jefferson and Madison and Hamilton. These were early modernists. But almost everybody else was a traditionalist. And, uh, but we created the foundation to create, really, the world's first modern society, which was the United States. Now, progressivism, in a way, is a reaction to the disasters of modernism. Like, modernism does have envi- negative environmental impacts. And so part of it is that we have to solve those problems. And so progressivism is partly as- uh, solving that problem. Uh, things like racism and, um, uh, sexism and homophobia or whatever, these are also aspects that progressivism is reacting to, to say that this is not fair, this is not just. So the, the really beautiful thing about progressivism is that it's striving to give dignity to all these different sort of, um, marginalized people that were always, you know... Used to get beat up when they were young, so to speak-

Joe Rogan 56:50 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 56:50 ... in a, in a, in a more modernistic, uh, traditional society. The problem is, is that when you begin to force your values on everybody else, then, then we begin to get a lot of blowback on that. And that's true for progressivism as well. It needs to harmonize with traditionalism and modernism and not treat those as the enemies that must be conquered.

Joe Rogan 57:12 The things that progressivism... What... The things that resonate with a lot of people is the uplifting of the impoverished.

John Mackey 57:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:21 The, the education in poor communities, where the traditionally the education has been substandard. All, all these different things that I think, for whatever reason, our government or our society has... We've erred. There's a problem in not, not, uh, not dealing with those, those issues.

John Mackey 57:43 Uh, so I would, I would take a little different interpretation. Actually, modernism is dealing with it. Modernism has been lifting humanity up, as I argued earlier in this talk.

Joe Rogan 57:51 Okay, but it's not, it's not-

John Mackey 57:53 But it's not perfect.

Joe Rogan 57:53 ... done a great job of it.

John Mackey 57:54 It's, it's actually done a very good job, but it hasn't, it hasn't finished the job. So progressivism is correct to recognize that there are some people being left out.

Joe Rogan 58:03 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 58:03 That the, the rising tide has not lifted all the boats. What about those that are being left behind? What about them? They're absolutely right. We need to take care of them. We need to find solutions to their problems. But it's not by throwing modernism out.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Right.

John Mackey 58:16 It's not... It's by taking modernism and then, and then adding on a greater sensitivity for those who are downtrodden, who are, who are... Who have bad educational systems.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Well, this is where you can take some of the good aspects-

John Mackey 58:28 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:29 ... of progressive thinking.

John Mackey 58:29 Exactly, exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:30 And these are the g- uh, aspects that I identify with.

John Mackey 58:33 As do I.

Joe Rogan 58:33 Yeah, so the ideas of progressivism when it comes to dealing with impoverished communities, dealing with cr- crime-ridden communities, and coming up with strategies to help the people that are stuck in those spots.

John Mackey 58:47 Right. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:49 Yeah, that... You... If you take away that, o- once, once that gets... Starts getting implemented on a wide scale, then a lot of the arguments against capitalism will start to fade.

John Mackey 59:00 Hence, conscious capitalism. That's-

Joe Rogan 59:02 Is that in your book right here?

John Mackey 59:03 Yes, exactly.

Joe Rogan 59:04 Conscious Capitalism.

John Mackey 59:04 That's exactly what it's about, yes.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Right here, by John Mackey.

John Mackey 59:07 And Roger Soja.

Joe Rogan 59:08 Available, available on Amazon.

John Mackey 59:09 And at Whole Foods.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Oh, you can get it at a Whole Foods?

John Mackey 59:12 Probably Barnes & Noble too.

Joe Rogan 59:12 I'm sure. Um, dealing with this debate and dealing with this, uh, argument, has anyone or have... Just having these conversations over long periods of time, like I know you have, has this shaped your perspective in any way, like having to formulate these very clear arguments?

John Mackey 59:34 Of course.

Joe Rogan 59:35 Yeah.

John Mackey 59:35 I mean, um, you can't really think clearly... At least I think dialectically, Joe. I need pushback.

Joe Rogan 59:43 Mm-hmm.

John Mackey 59:43 I need a devil's advocate, because-

Joe Rogan 59:46 I'm always around, bro.

John Mackey 59:47 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:48 (laughs)

John Mackey 59:48 Well, you're... Uh, apparently you're not always around. You travel a lot. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:51 (laughs) I haven't been traveling that much, but-

John Mackey 59:53 Um-... but-

Joe Rogan 59:54 But you need a real devil's advocate-

John Mackey 59:55 Y- well-

Joe Rogan 59:56 ... not a, not a knucklehead like me.

John Mackey 59:56 ... you need... your, your ideas need to stand the test of, of being-

Joe Rogan 59:59 Yes.

John Mackey 59:59 ... struggled with.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Right. That's a real problem with people that don't want to hear the other perspective.

John Mackey 1:00:05 We're stuck in... That's your social dilemma issue.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Yes.

John Mackey 1:00:07 When we get stuck in an echo chamber, if we only... if you're, if you're a traditionalist and you only watch Fox News, for example, then you're not gonna get a wider perspective. But if you're a progressive and you only read the New York Times and watch CNN and MSNBC, you may not be getting a, a wider perspective either. We need to expose ourselves to the wider context of information that's out there.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 That is a philosophy that I think should be taught in school that is as important as mathematics and history. There's a, there's a thing about challenging ideas and looking at your own ideas in a wa- in an objective way. I d- I think one of the things that I've worked very hard at doing is not being married to any of the ideas that I have in my head, and that I don't... They are not mine, they are an idea. And even though I have espoused these ideas, even though I've defended these ideas, if something comes along that shows me that this idea is flawed or inaccurate, I have made a very posi- a very conscious, positive effort to abandon those ideas-

John Mackey 1:01:12 So do I.

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 ... or reexamine them.

John Mackey 1:01:13 I've got a metaphor for it that you, you... I'm happy to loan it to you-

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 Okay.

John Mackey 1:01:16 ... You can have it too. It's like ideas are like, um, I've got clothes on here today, but they're not who I am. I'm just wearing them today.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 Right.

John Mackey 1:01:25 And, and I'll put these aside and I'll wear different clothes tomorrow. They're... the clothes are not me, and the ideas and beliefs I have are not me either.

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 Right.

John Mackey 1:01:33 When, when they don't fit any longer, I set them aside-

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Mm.

John Mackey 1:01:37 ... and I get new clothes that fit better. The... and, and it's a... that's a, that's a very liberating way to think about your beliefs and your ideas, because otherwise, if you identify yourself with what you believe, that means if somebody criticizes one of your beliefs, y- many people take it as a personal attack, that somehow they're, they're saying I don't have worth because they disagree with my views. No, they're just saying they don't like the clothes that you're wearing-

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Yeah.

John Mackey 1:01:59 ... but that's not who you are. So, I'm not my beliefs. They are just what I'm wearing for right now.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I think there is a real problem with people looking at people's ideas and judging them and their value as a human being based on those ideas. But we do it because most people are married to their, to their ideas, and we're taught to defend our ideas to the death, that these ideas are core to who you are as a person, that they're core to how you identify, how you think of yourself.

John Mackey 1:02:29 It's like the Matrix, you gotta free your mind.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Yeah.

John Mackey 1:02:32 Free your mind.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Well, this... it's very freeing in, in being able to recognize you're wrong and say you're wrong. It's very, it's very freeing.

John Mackey 1:02:41 It is.

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 And we resist it. But when you resist it and you know you're wrong, you feel like a loser. Like inside your head, you know you're full of shit.

John Mackey 1:02:49 You know, I don't, I don't experience it that way. So one of the things I try to do as CEO of Whole Foods Market is I always try to admit my mistakes in a very public way, because I feel like that helps everybody else admit their own mistakes.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Yeah.

John Mackey 1:03:02 And I'll just say, "You know, I was wrong about that. I made a mistake. I'm sorry about that." It... and... 'cause then if you admit you made a mistake, you can learn from it. You don't have to make the same mistake again.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 Mm.

John Mackey 1:03:12 And it also gives everybody permission if... "Hey, if John is gonna admit his mistakes, then I can admit my mistakes too." And you have a much more open dialogue with people. Nobody's seen as infallible, as all-knowing, as never right... always right, never wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 Yeah, that's a great philosophy. It's very important. I mean, nobody wants a, a dictator that they have to walk on eggshells around and, you know, they have to pretend that this person is only making good decisions when you think that... I mean, that's the argument against Donald Trump, right? I mean, never says he's wrong, never admits he's wrong, doesn't show any empathy.

John Mackey 1:03:44 I'm not gonna defend Trump.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 How dare you?

John Mackey 1:03:46 I will merely say that which presidents in our lifetime ever admit they made any mistakes? I just... that's just not something I see politicians do very often.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Well, Governor Newsom made a mistake when he went to that restaurant and he admitted it when he got busted.

John Mackey 1:04:00 Well, the only-

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 But no...

John Mackey 1:04:01 ... when he got busted and he couldn't, he couldn't deny your own... now who you gonna believe? What he s- what I say or your own eyes? So-

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Well, then he lied though.

John Mackey 1:04:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 He said he was outside.

John Mackey 1:04:10 Right. He... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 (laughs) He didn't an- anticipate photos coming out after he gave that apology speech.

John Mackey 1:04:14 And he didn't know how many people were gonna be there.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 Yeah.

John Mackey 1:04:17 And he says, "I should have just turned around right then and there." So, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Like, but you knew who was gonna be there.

John Mackey 1:04:21 Yeah. But I... Who knows?

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Come on.

John Mackey 1:04:23 Who knows?

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 It's his buddy.

John Mackey 1:04:24 I guess when you're caught red-handed, it's hard to continue to, to-

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Well, look, I'm not the governor, but if someone says, "We're having a party-"

John Mackey 1:04:30 Joe Rogan for governor, I think that's a great idea.

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 No, no. I like our governor. I like Governor Abbott. He's a good man.

John Mackey 1:04:35 I, I like, I like Governor Abbott too.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 When you, uh, go to a party, if someone says, "We're gonna have a party over at my house," during times of COVID, I'd be like, "How many people are gonna be there?" That'd be like one of the first questions I ask.

John Mackey 1:04:47 No.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Like I don't, I don't wanna go to a party where there's 500 people and I don't know anybody-

John Mackey 1:04:51 No, of course not.

Joe Rogan 1:04:51 ... breathing everybody's funky air. I would ask that and I'm not even the governor. I'm not even telling people you have to close their businesses and I would ask that. Forget about looking hypocritical, just for my own health.

John Mackey 1:05:03 You know, the, the Newsom example though is a, is kind of a personal example. You know, we always are quick to point out hypocrisy in people.

Joe Rogan 1:05:09 Sure.

John Mackey 1:05:10 But I'm saying that very seldom do you ever see a, a, a, a politician or a president or a senator or governor admit they made a policy mistake.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Right.

John Mackey 1:05:20 So you don't see Governor Cuomo in New York saying that, "Gosh, I should never have sent those people to the nursing homes."

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 No.

John Mackey 1:05:25 "I really made a mistake on that."

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 Good point.

John Mackey 1:05:27 Uh, we don't see the obvious mistakes ever admitted.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Don't you think that in that situation there would be a legal problem? Because if he did admit that that's a mistake publicly, they would probably sue the shit out of him. You're talking about-

John Mackey 1:05:41 They could still sh- sue him whether he admitted it or not-

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 Yes.

John Mackey 1:05:44 ... because-

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 But they would have the evidence. They would have his own s- his own testimony publicly that he made a mistake. You would not be able to argue against that. Look, clear-

John Mackey 1:05:53 Good point.

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 I think we both agree-

John Mackey 1:05:54 Good point.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Clearly he made a mistake. That's a giant mistake and it's responsible for thousands of deaths.

John Mackey 1:06:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 I mean, zo- it's gonna har- it's hard to argue that. You take people that are COVID positive, you send them to a nursing home where folks are older and their immune systems are compromised, and a lot of them die. I mean, I don't know what number died, but I know that there have been reports in places where there have been COVID deaths, where an enormous percentage of them were in nur- nursing homes.

John Mackey 1:06:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 Like more than 20%.

John Mackey 1:06:23 Oh, no, no, Joe. I think it's over 50% in the United States-

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Ugh.

John Mackey 1:06:26 ... or close to it. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 God.

John Mackey 1:06:28 ... and I, I, I mean, 95% have comorbidities, right? So...

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 Can, c- can you imagine being in that situation where you're an older person and you're just, like, trying to ride out your last days-

John Mackey 1:06:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 ... and the governor sends sick people back to the nursing home? And you realize that Mary down the hall is coughing up a fucking storm now?

John Mackey 1:06:47 Yeah. I mean, I, uh, we're way out of where I'm kind of a little bit out of my comfort zone. So I kinda-

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 That's what I like to do to people.

John Mackey 1:06:53 I know. But-

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 (laughs)

John Mackey 1:06:54 ... we don't know what... really what, what the governor might have been thinking. I, I, I believe his intentions were probably good. He was very worried they were gonna be o- they were gonna have too many cases, they weren't gonna have enough hospital beds for it.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 Yeah. No, I'm sure.

John Mackey 1:07:04 It, it, it's probably a mistake, but it was, it was, uh, it was made with good intentions. And, uh, I don't think it was made with bad intentions to hurt people.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 I don't think so either. I don't think he did it to try to kill old people.

John Mackey 1:07:15 Exa- exactly. That's my point.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 I think he just made an error.

John Mackey 1:07:17 He was actually trying to save lives, he just-

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Yeah.

John Mackey 1:07:19 ... made a mistake. And-

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Well, it's also-

John Mackey 1:07:20 ... every... and people make mistakes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 When you're in a situation like that where there's not much you can do, when you are stuck... You know, um, I was talking to a nurse and she was explaining to me... She's a nurse in a COVID ward. And she was explaining to me the decisions that they have to make. She's like, "During, like, the peak, when, when it was, you know, the... all the beds were full," she's like, "we really... we're in situations where we're like, we have to send this person home-"

John Mackey 1:07:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 "... and they're going to die. And there's no room for, for new people to come in, so we literally have to send... we have to l- m- uh, take people that are terminal."

John Mackey 1:07:56 Triage.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 Yeah. "There's not much you could do." And I go, "Well, what do... how do you protect their family from getting it?" She's like, "You can't." I'm like, "Oh my God. So you're, you're sending people who are dying of COVID home and they were likely going to infect their family?" "Yeah, yeah. You tell their family, 'Take all the precautions they can.'"

John Mackey 1:08:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 "But if you have to do it, you have to do it." That's... when you're in a situation where there's no good answers.

John Mackey 1:08:20 That's not a win-win. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 Right. Yeah, this... that's not a win-win win either. (laughs)

John Mackey 1:08:25 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Yeah. It's, it's hugely unfortunate, but it's also unprecedented, right? Like when Mario Cuomo became governor... or Andrew Cuomo, rather, became governor, he didn't think that this was something that he was gonna have to encounter. He probably had strategies in play for economic growth, for, you know, d- dealing with law enforcement. All these different problems that a governor would face. Taxes. All these different things. And he probably never thought, "Well, there might be a thing that kills all these old people if I send them back to nursing homes."

John Mackey 1:08:54 I'm sure there was not a plan for it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 No. But that's one thing about this pandemic.

John Mackey 1:08:59 It's why I never wanna be governor, Joe.

Joe Rogan 1:09:01 Please don't. Everybody would hate ya. I think they hate you when you, uh, became successful with Whole Paycheck.

John Mackey 1:09:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 It's way, way too... you know?

John Mackey 1:09:09 Wait till I'm governor?

Joe Rogan 1:09:10 Yeah. Oh my God. Well, and then if you become president-

John Mackey 1:09:12 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 ... it's even worse. Then no... literally half the country hates you.

John Mackey 1:09:15 Well, look how many people are trying to kill you.

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 (sighs) Yeah. I don't know.

John Mackey 1:09:18 I don't... as far as I know, I don't have anybody trying to kill me-

Joe Rogan 1:09:20 Congratulations.

John Mackey 1:09:21 ... at this time.

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 There's probably like one butcher that's thinking, "This motherfucker."

John Mackey 1:09:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 No, I'm just kidding. Your, um, your, your time doing this, your time spent, uh, like, as a, a leader, as a, you know... do, do you understand better the, the pitfalls of these leaders because of the fact that-

John Mackey 1:09:40 Yeah, sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 ... you've, you've been a leader of a corporation for so long?

John Mackey 1:09:42 Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you just have a lot of responsibility. And if you're a leader, you're also being paid to make good decisions. And if you make good decisions, a lot of people benefit. And if you make bad decisions, a lot of people might suffer. So, you gotta have a high batting average here, Joe. You can't... y- you're gonna make a few mistakes, but you, you make those mistakes hopefully at a smaller level, not at the biggest level. And, uh, I 是 made plenty of mistakes at Whole Foods. And one of the reasons I've been successful is I've just learned from a lot of my mistakes. As I say, I have a lot of scars, and, uh, but they've made me better too.

Joe Rogan 1:10:21 Now, when you do have these very strong ethics and morals that you operate your company by, but you're also... you're, you're incentivized by profit, um, do you make a conscious effort to explain or to espouse these ideas to the people that are working for you and working with you?

John Mackey 1:10:40 Ab- absolutely. We do. I mean, uh, our quality standards, our core values, our higher purpose, these are all... we actually have a program in Whole Foods now called Cultural Champions, where people go through a program and get certified to be a cultural champion. And, and it's very important because we... I mean, we have 100,000 people working for Whole Foods, and every year we're hiring 10 to 20,000 new people.

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 Woo.

John Mackey 1:11:02 Exactly. And so they're not gonna know the purpose. They're not gonna know the core values. They're not gonna know, uh, what the company is about, or even they're not gonna know the history. You have to help... you have to continually educate and teach people who you are and what you stand for. Or otherwise it's gonna disappear.

Joe Rogan 1:11:19 One thing you guys have done, and I don't know how you did it, a lot of people there are friendly. Like how have you done that? Like in Boulder I found people to be friendly. I found people to be friendly in Park City, Utah. I found people to be friendly in, uh, uh, Los Angeles, in the valley, in the city. Like you've got a lot of friendly employees. Like is this something that's been like a core tenet of, of the business?

John Mackey 1:11:42 It is. It's, it's one of our core values. We call it, uh, team member growth and happiness. We actually want our people working for us to be happy. And I'll tell you what I've learned. There's two things that people want at work above all else. I mean, they want to earn a paycheck too. But besides... if you take... if you get the money right, there's two things that people want wha- which will make them long term committed to your organization. The first one is everybody wants to have a sense of purpose. They want to feel like their work...... is actually contributing. It's, you know, they're not just making widgets. They're doing something that's actually creating value for other people. Purpose matters. And secondly, they wanna feel like somebody gives a shit about them. That, that they're cared for, that, that, that... And if you do those two things, if you give people purpose and love, then you're giving them probably the two things they most desire in life, is purpose and love. And we try to do that at Whole Foods. And to the degree people are friendly, it's partly because they're experiencing both of those, or at least one of them.

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 What's great about that to me is that because your business has been so successful and it's such a popular spot for people, and people are very aware that it's like that, my hope is that this is gonna be contagious, and that other businesses are gonna go, "You know, we're gonna follow the Whole Foods model and we are going to create an environment where it's family, uh, people are loved, they're cared for. And then, the people that come there, we want them to be appreciated. We want everybody who works for us to be happy that they have a job here, feel like they belong, feel like they're doing something good."

John Mackey 1:13:19 I absolutely agree. The second chapter of our book, Conscious Leadership, is Lead With Love. Love is something that we don't think about in our corporations. And we have these sort of hyper-competitive models, uh, mental models about the way w- the world works. They're war metaphors, kill or be killed.

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 Ooh.

John Mackey 1:13:37 Uh, we're gonna, uh, let's go to the war room, let's, let's create our campaign, let's go motivate the troops. Uh, we're using war metaphors or we're using, um, Darwinian mo- metaphors. This is survival of the fittest. It's a jungle out there. Only the paranoid survive. Or they are sports metaphors where we're winners, losers, and winning isn't, uh, uh, everything, it's the only thing. We've, we've got this idea of hyper-competition. And when you're at war, there really isn't any place for love. I mean, love, check it at the door, 'cause we got a war to fight. We'll, after that. So do that in your, in your personal life. And, and we're... And love, though, the love, I don't mean romantic love, I don't mean sexual love. I mean the love that you feel towards the people you're working with, the people that you're serving, your customers. That can't, that, that's part of the most important part of being a human being. We