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Joe Rogan Experience #1572 - Moxie Marlinspike

Computer security researcher Moxie Marlinspike is the creator of the encrypted messenger service Signal, and co-founder of the Signal Foundation: a nonprofit dedicated to global freedom of speech through the development of open-source privacy technology.

Moxie MarlinspikeguestJoe RoganhostGuest 2guest
Jun 27, 20243h 2mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:27

    Signal’s origin: a messaging app built to resist mass surveillance

    1. MM

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

    3. MM

      Uh, so like, we're gonna just sit here and talk for a long time, huh?

    4. JR

      Yeah. We're started right now. We're started.

    5. MM

      Th- It has begun.

    6. JR

      Yes (laughs) .

    7. MM

      (laughs) .

    8. JR

      W- What was your question, though?

    9. MM

      I was gonna ask, you know, like, what if something comes up, you know, like-

    10. JR

      Like what?

    11. MM

      ... like, uh, you know, you need to, like, pee or something.

    12. JR

      Oh, you can totally do that. Yeah. We'll just pause-

    13. MM

      Okay.

    14. JR

      ... and just run out and pee. That happens. D- Don't sweat it.

    15. MM

      All right, all right.

    16. JR

      I want you to be comfortable.

    17. MM

      All right.

    18. JR

      Have you ever done a podcast before?

    19. MM

      First time.

    20. JR

      Really?

    21. MM

      First time.

    22. JR

      Um, so tell me how, where Signal came from. What, what was the impetus? What was, how did it get started?

    23. MM

      It's a long story.

    24. JR

      It's okay, we got time. We got plenty of time.

    25. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got time.

    26. JR

      (laughs) .

    27. MM

      Uh, okay, well, you know, I think ultimately what we're trying to do with Signal is, um, stop mass surveillance, to bring some normality to the internet, and to, uh, explore a different way of developing technology that might ultimately serve all of us better.

    28. JR

      We should tell people, maybes people just tuning in, Signal is an app that is, uh... Explain how it works and what, what it does. I use it. It's a, it's a messaging app, go ahead.

    29. MM

      It's a messaging app, yeah. Yeah.

    30. JR

      But-

  2. 1:27 – 4:04

    Encryption explained: securing information vs securing computers

    1. MM

      Uh, yeah. It's a messaging app, um, but it's, um, somewhat different from the, the way the rest of technology works because, um, it, uh, is encrypted. So, um, you know, uh, if... Typically, you know, if you want to send somebody a message, uh, I think most people's expectation is that when they write a message and they, you know, press send, that the people who can see that message are the person who wrote the message and the intended recipient. But, that's not actually the case. Uh, there's, you know, tons of people who are in between, who are monitoring these things, who are collecting data information. And Signal's different because, uh, we've designed it so that we don't have access to, uh, that information.

    2. JR

      So, when you send an SMS, that is the least secure of all messages. So, if you have an Android phone and you use a standard messaging app, and you send a message to one of your friends, that is the least of all when, when it comes, when it comes to security, right?

    3. MM

      That's, uh, yeah, it's a low bar. That's, uh...

    4. JR

      That's the low bar.

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      And then iPhone, what is this, Signal?

    7. MM

      This is their site.

    8. JR

      Oh, there you go.

    9. MM

      This is showing it.

    10. JR

      Yeah. So, iPhones use iMessage, which is slightly more secure, but it gets uploaded to the cloud and it's a part of their iCloud service, so it goes to some servers and then goes to the other person. It's encrypted along the way, but it's still, it can be intercepted.

    11. MM

      Yeah, I mean, okay, so there's, uh-

    12. JR

      Like Jeff Bezos, the situation.

    13. MM

      Uh, yeah, like Jeff Bezos situation, exactly.

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. MM

      There's a, like... Fundamentally, there's two ways to think about, uh, security. One is, uh, like computer security, uh, this idea that we'll somehow make computers secure. We'll put information on the computers and then we'll prevent other people from accessing those computers. And that is like a losing strategy that people have been losing for 30 years, you know. Uh, you, information ends up on a computer somewhere and it ends up compromised in the end. The other way to think about security is information security, where you secure the information itself, that you don't have to worry about the security of the computers. You could have some computers in the cloud somewhere, information's flowing through them, and people can compromise, compromise those things and it doesn't really matter because the information itself is encrypted. Um, and so, you know, things like SMS, um, you know, the iMessage cloud backups, um, uh, most other messengers, Facebook Messenger, all that stuff, you know, um, they're relying on this computer security model. Um, and that, uh, ends up disappointing people in the end.

    16. JR

      Mm. And so, you, why did you guys create it? Like, what, what was unsatisfactory about the other options that were available?

  3. 4:04 – 6:23

    Why privacy enables courage: performative public speech, self-censorship, and mobs

    1. MM

      Well, because the way the internet works today is like insane. Uh, you know, that, uh, you know, fundamentally I feel like, um, private communication is important because I think that change happens in private. Um, everything that is fundamentally decent today, uh, started out as something that was a socially unacceptable idea at the time. Uh, you look at things like, you know, obvious things, the abolition of slavery, legalization of marijuana, legalization of same-sex marriage. Uh, even, you know, constructing the Decla- Declaration of Independence. Those are all things that required a space for people to process ideas outside the context of everyday life. And, um, those spaces don't exist on the internet today. And I think it's kind of crazy the way the internet works today. You know, that like if you imagined, um, you know, every moment that you were talking to somebody in real life, there was somebody there just with a clipboard, a stranger-

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      ... taking notes about what you said, that would change the character of your conversations. Uh, and I think that in some ways, like, we're living through a shortage of brave or bold or courageous ideas, in part because people don't have the space to process what's happening in their lives outside of the context of everyday interactions, you know?

    4. JR

      That's a really good way to put it, because you gotta give people a chance to think things through. But if you do that publicly, they're not going to. They're going to sort of like, like basically what you see on Twitter.

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      You know? If you stray from what is considered to be the acceptable norm or the current ideology or whatev- whatever you're supposed to, whatever opinions you're supposed to have on a certain subject, you get attacked, ruthlessly so. So, you see a lot of self-censorship and you also see a lot of virtue signaling, where people sort of pretend that they espouse a certain series of ideas because that'll get them some, you know, some social cred.

    7. MM

      Yeah, uh, exactly. I think that communication in those environments is performative, you know? You're either performing for an angry mob, you're performing for advertisers, you're performing for, you know, the governments that are watching.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

  4. 6:23 – 10:25

    Public comment on Zoom and the psychology of public abuse (and politics)

    1. MM

      Um, and I think also the ideas that make it through are kind of tainted as a result, you know? That like, uh, did you watch any of the, um, like the online hearing stuff that was happening over COVID? Uh, you know, where like, uh, city councils and stuff were having their hearings online?

    2. JR

      No, I did not.

    3. MM

      Uh, it was kind of interesting to me because it's like, um, you know, they can't meet in person so they're doing it online. And, uh, that means that the public comment period was also online, you know? And so it used to be that like, you know, if you go to a city council meeting, uh, they have a period of public comment where, you know, people could just stand up and say what they think.

    4. JR

      Hmm.

    5. MM

      You know? And like ordinarily it's like, "Oh, you gotta go to city hall, you gotta like wait in line, you gotta sit there," you know? But then when it's on Zoom, it's just sort of like anyone can just show up at-

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. MM

      ... on the Zoom thing. You know, they just dial in and then they're just like, "Here's what I think," you know? And, uh, you know, it was kind of interesting because particularly, uh, when a lot of the police brutality stuff was happening in Los Angeles, I was, I was watching those city council hearings. And, you know, people were just like, you know, you know, they were just calling, you know, it'd be like, "Fuck you. I yield the rest of my time, fuck you." You know?

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. MM

      Like it was just like, uh, really brutal and, uh, not undeservedly so. And, uh, you know, what was interesting to me was just watching the, the politicians basically, you know, uh, who just had to sit there and just, they were just like-

    10. JR

      Take it.

    11. MM

      You know? (laughs) And then it was just like, you know, you get three minutes and then there's someone else who gets-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      You know, and they're just like, "Okay, and now we'll hear from," you know, like sometimes. And, you know, watching that you sort of realize that it's like, um, to be a politician you have to just sort of fundamentally not really care what people think of you, you know? Uh, you have to fundamentally, uh, just be comfortable sitting, you know, and having people yell at you, you know, for three minute, in three minute increments for an hour or whatever, you know? And so it seems like what we've sort of done is like bred these people who are willing to do that, you know? And in some ways that's like a useful characteristic but in other ways that's the characteristic of a psychopath, you know? Who-

    14. JR

      Yes.

    15. MM

      And-

    16. JR

      Yes.

    17. MM

      And I think, you know, what we're seeing is that that also extends outside of those environments. That like, to do anything ambitious today requires that you just are comfortable with that kind of, um, feedback.

    18. JR

      Like Trump's tweets.

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      If you watch, you know, if you look at Twitter and look at any of Trump's tweets, when he tweets, watch what people say. (laughs) It's ruthless. They go crazy, they go so hard at him. So I'm assuming he doesn't read them. I'm assuming he just, or maybe he does and just doesn't say anything, but he n-

    21. MM

      I-

    22. JR

      He doesn't go back and forth with people at least.

    23. MM

      No, but, and I'm, I, I think, you know, Trump is perfectly capable of just not caring. You know, there's like-

    24. JR

      Yes.

    25. MM

      People like, you know, grazing his just like, "Yeah, whatever, what, you know, I'm the best." They don't, you know.

    26. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    27. MM

      And like that's, um, you know, that's politics but I think, you know, the danger is when that, uh, you know, to do anything ambitious, you know, outside of politics or whatever, you know, requires that you're capable of just not caring, you know-

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. MM

      ... what people think or whatever, uh, because everything is happening in public.

    30. JR

      I think you made a really good point in that change comes from people discussing things privately because you have to, it's a, you have to be able to take a chance. You have to be daring. And, and you have to be able to confide in people and you have to be able to say, "Hey, um, this is not right and we're gonna do something about it." If you do that publicly, the powers that be that do not want change in any way, shape, or form, they'll, they'll come down on you. And this is essentially what Edward Snowden was warning everyone about when he decided to go public with all this NSA information. He was saying, "Look, we, this is not what we signed up for." You, like someone's constantly monitoring your emails, constantly listening to phone calls. Like this is not, this mass surveillance thing, it's very bad for just the culture of free expression, just our ability to have ideas and to be able to share them back and forth and vet them out. It's very bad.

  5. 10:25 – 14:18

    From Total Information Awareness to Snowden: surveillance becomes ‘natural’ infrastructure

    1. MM

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think when you look at the, the history of that kind of surveillance there are a few interesting inflection points, you know? Like at the beginning of, um, you know, the internet as we know it in like the early to mid '90s, um, there were these like DOD efforts to do mass surveillance, you know? Um, and, um, they were sort of open about what they were doing. Uh, uh, and you know, one of them was this program called Total Information Awareness. Uh, and, uh, it was, they were trying to start this office I think called the Total Awareness Office or something within the DOD. And the idea was like they're just gonna like collect information, uh, on all Americans and everyone's communication and just stockpile it into these, uh, databases and then they would use that to, you know, mine those things for information. Uh, it was sort of like, you know, their, their, uh, effort to get in on this at the beginning of the information age. Uh, and you know, it was ridiculous. You know, it's like they called it Total Information Awareness. They had a logo that was like, um, you know, the, the pyramid with the eye on top of it. Oh yeah, this is, this is their logo.

    2. JR

      Oh God.

    3. MM

      (laughs)

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. MM

      It's like the pyramid with the eye like casting a beam on Earth. That bit of Latin there means knowledge is power.

    6. JR

      Oh, wow.

    7. MM

      And interesting this, this program was actually started by, uh, John Poindexter of all people, who was involved in the Iran-Contra stuff I think.

    8. JR

      Really?

    9. MM

      Yeah, yeah. And he, he like went to jail for a sec and then was pardoned or something, but.

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. MM

      Uh, so anyway, you know, they're, they're like-

    12. JR

      It's just so fucked up these people are in charge of anything.

    13. MM

      I know but what's also I guess kind of comical is that like they were like, "This is what we're gonna do." You know?

    14. JR

      Look how crazy this is.

    15. MM

      Like this, this is our plan, you know? And people were like, "Uh, I don't think so." Re- you know, like wait just a second.

    16. JR

      What year was this?

    17. MM

      I, this was like early mid '90s.

    18. JR

      Look at this authentication biometric data, face, fingerprints, gait, iris. Your gait?So they're going to identify people based on the way they walk?

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      I guess your gait is that specific?

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      Um, then automated virtual data repositories, privacy and security. This is fascinating, because if you-

    23. MM

      Well-

    24. JR

      ... look at, I mean, obviously no one thought of cellphones back then.

    25. MM

      Exactly, right. This is, so this is like kind of amateurish, right?

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. MM

      So it's like, they were like, "This is what we're going to do," you know? And people were like, "Uh, I don't think so." You know, even, like, Congress was like, "Uh, guys, I don't think we can, like, approve this," you know? Like, "You need a better logo," you know?

    28. JR

      (laughs) Yeah, for sure.

    29. MM

      Yeah.

    30. JR

      But it's just this whole flowchart. Is that what this would be? What do you call something like this?

  6. 14:18 – 17:29

    Cambridge Analytica and the ‘private PRISM’: data used to predict and influence behavior

    1. MM

      you know, governments are just going to those places and getting the information. Uh, and then I think, you know, the next inflection point was really, uh, Cambridge Analytica. Um, you know, that was a moment where I think people were like...

    2. JR

      Explain that to people, please?

    3. MM

      Uh, Cambridge Analytica was, um, a, uh, a firm that was doing, um, like big data, um, using big data in order to, um, forecast and manipulate, um, people's opinions. Uh, and in particular, they, uh, were involved in the 2016 election. Uh, and it was sort of, you know, so it's like, you know, what Snowden revealed was PRISM, which was, um, the, the cooperation between the government and these places where data was naturally accumulating, like Facebook, Google, et cetera, you know, and the phone company. And, uh, Cambridge Analytica I think was the moment that people were like, "Oh, there's, like, also sort of like a private version of PRISM," you know? That's, like, not just governments, but, like, the data is out there, and other people who are motivated are using that against us, you know? Um, and I, so I think, you know, in the beginning, it was sort of like, "Oh, this could be scary." And then it was like, um, "Oh, but, you know, we're just using these services." And then people were like, "Oh, wait, the government is, you know, using the data that we're, uh, you know, sending to these services." And then people were like, "Oh, wait, like, anybody can use the data against us." And then we were like, "Oh, shit." You know, it's like, I think things went from like, um, "Ah, I don't really have anything to hide," to like, "Wait a second. These people can predict and influence how I'm going to vote based on what kind of jeans I buy?" You know. Uh, and, you know, and then, you know, sort of where we are today, where it's like, I think people are also beginning to realize that the companies themselves that are doing this kind of data collection are, are also not necessarily acting in our best interests.

    4. JR

      Yeah, for sure. There, there's just two... There's, there's also this weird thing that's happening with these companies that are gathering the data, whether it's Facebook or Google or... I don't think they ever set out to be what they are. They started out, like Facebook, for example, we were talking about it before. It was really just sort of like a social networking thing, and this was in the early days. It was a business. I don't think anybody ever thought it was going to be something that influences world elections in a staggering way. Like, especially in other parts of the world, you know, where Facebook becomes the sort of de facto messaging app on your phone when you get it.

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      I mean, it has had massive impact on, on politics, on shaping culture, on, on, I mean, even genocide has been connected to Facebook in, in certain, certain countries. You know, it's, it's weird that this thing that is in, I don't know how many different language Facebook ex- how many different languages does Facebook, uh, operate under?

    7. MM

      All of them. Whatever they-

    8. JR

      All of them?

    9. MM

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. JR

      I mean, th- this was just a s- a social app. It was from Harvard, right? They were just connecting students together? Wasn't that initially what the, the first iteration of it was?

  7. 17:29 – 29:36

    Profit incentives and supply-chain harm: ‘bad business models produce bad technology’

    1. MM

      Yeah. Oh, okay, I mean, I think you can say, like, no one anticipated that these things would be this significant, um, but I also think that there's... You know, I think ultimately, like, what we end up seeing again and again is that, like, bad business models produce bad technology, you know? That, like, the point, you know, what we were talking about before, like, the point, you know... Mark Zuckerberg did not create Facebook because of his deep love of, like, social interactions. Like, he did not have some, like, deep sense of, like, wanting to connect people and connect the world. That's not his passion, you know? Uh, Jeff Bezos did not start Amazon because of his deep love of books. Uh, you know, uh, these companies are oriented around, um, profit, you know? They're, they're trying to make money, and, and they, uh, you know, they're, they're subject to external demands as a result. They have to, like, grow infinitely, you know? Um, which is insane, but that's the expectation. And, you know, so what we end up seeing is that, uh, the technology is not necessarily, uh, in our best interest, because that's not what it was designed for to begin with.

    2. JR

      That is insane that companies are expected to grow infinitely.

    3. G2

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      I mean, they're literally exp- what, what is your expectation? To take over everything, to have all the money-

    5. G2

      And then-

    6. JR

      ... one day.

    7. G2

      ... and then more, you know.

    8. JR

      If, yeah, if we extrapolate, we, we anticipate we will have all the money. There will be no other money.

    9. G2

      (laughs) Yeah.

    10. JR

      I mean, if you keep going, that's what has to happen. How can you just grow infinitely? That's bizarre.

    11. G2

      Yeah, and that's why, I mean, you know, the, I think, you know, the Silicon Valley obsession with China is-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. G2

      ... uh, you know, a big part of it, where people, they're just like, "Well, that's a lot of people there."

    14. JR

      Yes.

    15. G2

      You know? That's, that's another-

    16. JR

      That's, that's a lot of people there.

    17. G2

      ... thing people could just keep growing.

    18. JR

      Yeah, there was a, a fantastic, uh, um, thing that I was reading this morning. God, I wish I could remember what the source of it was. But it was, uh, they were, they were essentially talking about how strange it is that there are so many people that are so anti-human trafficking, they're so pro-human rights, they're so anti-slavery, they're so... All the, the, the powerful values that we ascribe, uh, that we, that we, we think of when we think of Western civilization, we, we think of all these beautiful values, but that almost all of them rely on some form of slavery to get their electronics.

    19. G2

      Oh, yeah.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. G2

      And it was just-

    22. JR

      You have the, uh, eight grams of cobalt in your pocket over there-

    23. G2

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... that are mined by actual child slaves, like, you know.

    25. G2

      Someone had to stick a s- like, literally, they're, they're getting it out of the ground.

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. G2

      Digging into the dirt to get it out of the ground. We were talking about it on the podcast the other day. We were like, "Is there a way that this could, that w- is there a future that you could foresee where you could buy a phone that is guilt free?" Like, if I buy a pair of shoes, like I bought a pair of boots from my friend, uh, Jocko's company. He's got a, a company called Origin. They make handmade boots. And like, it's made in a factory in Maine, you can see a tour of the factory, these guys are stitching these things together and it's a real quality boot. And I'm like, "I like that I could buy this. I know where it came from. I know that, I could, I could see a video of the guys making it." Like, this is a thing that I can feel like I am giving them money, they're giving me a, a, a product. Like, there's a, there's a nice exchange. It feels good. I don't feel like that with a phone. With a phone, I have this like bizarre disconnect. I try to pretend that I'm not buying something that's made in a factory where there's a fucking net around it because so many people jumped to their deaths, that instead of trying to make things better and say, "We just, we're gonna put nets up." (laughs)

    28. JR

      "Catch these fuckers and put them back to work."

    29. G2

      Yeah.

    30. JR

      Is there, is it possible we could one- that we would all get together and say, "Hey, enough of this shit. Will you make us a goddamn phone that doesn't make me feel like I'm supporting slavery?"

  8. 29:36 – 37:29

    Tech leaders as agents of momentum, not masterminds—plus Rogan’s AI ‘caterpillar’ thesis

    1. MM

      So, you know, that it's like... I think there is a tendency for people to look at what's happening, particularly with technology today, and think that it's the fault of the people, um, you know, like the- the leaders of these companies, you know? And, you know, I, like, um, I think it goes both ways, you know? Uh, Slavoj Zizek, um, always talks about, um, when you look at the old political speeches, um, you know, if you look at the fascist leaders, um, you know, they would give a speech and when there was a- a moment of applause, um, they would just sort of stand there and accept the applause, because in their ideology, uh, they were responsible for the thing that people were applauding, you know? And if you watch the old communist leaders, you know, like when Stalin would give a speech, um, and he would say something and there would be a moment of applause, he would also applaud. Uh, because in their ideology of historical materialism, they were just agents of history. They were just the tools of the inevitable. Uh, it wasn't them, you know, they had just sort of been chosen as the agents of this thing that was an inevitable process, and so they were applauding history, you know? And sometimes when I see, like, the CEOs of tech companies give speeches, uh, and people applaud, I kind of feel like they should also be applauding.

    2. JR

      Hmm.

    3. MM

      You know, that it's not...... them, you know, that-

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. MM

      ... uh, technology has its own agency, its own force that they're the tools of, in a way.

    6. JR

      That's a very interesting way of looking at it. The, uh, yeah, they are the tools of it and at this point, if we look at where we are in 2020, t- in this- it seems inevitable. It seems like there's just this unstoppable amount of momentum behind innovation and behind the, just the process of creating newer, better technology and constantly putting it out, and then dealing with the demand for that newer, better technology, and then competing with all the other people that are also putting out newer, better technology. And this- and then (claps) -

    7. MM

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah. Hey.

    8. JR

      Look what we're doing.

    9. MM

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      We're- we are helping the demise of human beings-

    11. MM

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      ... because I feel, and I've- I've said this multiple times and I'm gonna say it again, I think that we are the electronic caterpillar that will give way to the butterfly. We are- we don't know what we're doing. We are putting together something that's going to take over. We are putting together some ultimate being, some symbiotic connection between humans and- and technology, or literally an artificial version of life. Not even artificial, a version of life constructed with silicone and- and wires and- and things that we're making. We're- we're- if we keep going the way we're going, we're gonna come up with a technology that is gonna be ex machina. It's gonna- it's gonna pass the Turing test and it's going to literally be something that's better than what we are, a better version of a human being.

    13. MM

      I think we're a ways away. Uh-

    14. JR

      Yeah, we're a ways away, but what- how many ways? 50 years?

    15. MM

      Uh, the moment that I can put my hand under the, like, automatic sink thing-

    16. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MM

      ... and have the soap come out without, like-

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. MM

      ... waving arou- you know, like, then I'll be worried, you know? But like, you know-

    20. JR

      Oh, that's simplistic, sir.

    21. MM

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      How dare you. Well, here's a good example. The- you know the Turing test, is- the Turing test is, uh, if, uh, someone sat down with, like, an ex machina. Remember that- that- the je-

    23. MM

      Sure.

    24. JR

      It's one of my all-time favorite movies, where the coder is brought in to talk to the-

    25. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      ... the woman. He f- falls in love with the robot lady and h- she passes the Turing test 'cause he's- he's in love with her. I mean, he really- he really can't differentiate. In his mind, that is a woman, that's not a robot. Who- was it Alan Turing? What was the- the gentleman's name?

    27. MM

      Alan Turing.

    28. JR

      Alan Turing, that came up with the Turing test. You know, he- he was a gay man in England in the 1950s when it was illegal to be gay, and they-

    29. MM

      Killed himself.

    30. JR

      ... chemically castrated him-

  9. 37:29 – 39:42

    Why Signal is nonprofit: alternative incentives, small team, and software never being ‘done’

    1. MM

      learning things together, you know? Um, and so part of what we're trying to do different with Signal is, it's a nonprofit, uh, so, uh, because we wanna be for something other than profit. Um, and so we're trying to like explore a different way of like groups of people, you know, doing something mildly ambitious.

    2. JR

      Has anyone come along and go, "I know it's a nonprofit, but would you like to sell?"

    3. MM

      (laughs) Uh, y- uh, well, you can't do that. It's like encoded-

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. MM

      ... in the, the, the structure. There's nothing to sell. There's no equity.

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. MM

      There's nothing.

    8. JR

      It's kind of amazing though, that you guys have figured out a way to create, like basically a better version of iMessage that you could use on Android. Because one of the big complaints about Android is the lack of-

    9. MM

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      ... any encrypted messaging services.

    11. MM

      Yeah. Or just good messaging services. Yeah.

    12. JR

      And, and yeah, they've just recently come out with their own version of iMessage, but it kinda sucks. You can't do group chats. There's a, a lot of things you can't-

    13. MM

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      ... do with it. And it, and it's, it's encrypted, but is, is the new me- and it, I don't think it's rolled out everywhere too, right? It's not everywhere.

    15. MM

      I don't think it's rolled out at all, actually.

    16. JR

      Oh.

    17. MM

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      You could get a beta, is that what it is?

    19. MM

      Yeah. I don't, I don't know what the... You're right. So it's like, um, the, you know, Android, so Google for Android makes an app called Messages, which is just the standard SMS texting app. And they put that on the phones that they make, like the Pixel and stuff like that, you know? And then there's the rest of the ecosystem, you know, there's like, you know, Samsung devices, Huawei devices, you know, all this stuff. Um, and it sort of, it depends, you know, what's, what's on those things. And so they've been trying to move from this very old standard called SMS that you mentioned before, to this newer thing called RCS, um, which actually, I don't know what that stands for. I think in my mind I always think of it as standing for too little too late. Uh, but they're trying (laughs) -

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. MM

      ... they're trying to move to that. Uh, and, uh, so they're doing that on the, the device, the part of the ecosystem that they control, which is the, the, the devices that, um, they make and sell. And they're trying to get other people on board as well. And they, originally RCS didn't have any facility for end-to-end encryption, and, uh, they're actually using our stuff, the Signal protocol, uh, in the, uh, the new version of RCS that they're shipping. So I, I think they've announced that, but I don't know if it's, if it's on or not.

  10. 39:42 – 44:50

    Product friction & privacy knobs: contact discovery, typing indicators, disappearing messages, Apple limits

    1. JR

      I have two bones to pick with you guys.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      Two things that I don't necessarily like.

    4. MM

      Bring it on. All right.

    5. JR

      One, when, uh, I downloaded Signal and I joined, basically everyone that I'm friends with who was also on Signal got a message that I'm on Signal.

    6. MM

      Uh-huh.

    7. JR

      So you ratted me out. You ratted me out to all these people that are in my contact list.

    8. MM

      Why do you want it to be difficult for people to communicate with you privately?

    9. JR

      Well, me personally, because there's a lot of people that have my phone number that I wish didn't have my phone number.

    10. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      And now all of a sudden they got a message from me that I'm on Signal.

    12. MM

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      And then they send me a message, "Hey, I'd like this from you. I want you to do that for me."

    14. MM

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      "How about call me about this? I got a project..." (babbles)

    16. MM

      Uh-huh.

    17. JR

      So I just wish you didn't like rat me out. I wish there was like a way that you could say, "Do you want everyone to know that you just joined Signal? Yes or no?"

    18. MM

      Yep.

    19. JR

      I'd say, "No." Another one, those little dot, dot, dots, the ellipsis.

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Yeah. Can you shut that off? 'Cause I don't want anybody to know that I'm responding to a text.

    22. MM

      Yeah, you can turn it off.

    23. JR

      Can you turn that off? Oh, okay.

    24. MM

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      So it's in the settings?

    26. MM

      Yeah. Privacy settings.

    27. JR

      Okay.

    28. MM

      You can turn off typing indicators, you can turn it off. Read receipts-

    29. JR

      Okay.

    30. MM

      ... you can turn off. Yeah.

  11. 44:50 – 1:05:21

    Platform lock-in: AirDrop, SMS/RCS standards, and Apple’s incentives (plus using Signal protocol)

    1. JR

      You guys need to just develop your own version of AirDrop and then no one will need Apple ever again.

    2. MM

      Yeah. We'll implement it.

    3. JR

      That's what's holding people back. Like, a universal AirDrop?

    4. MM

      Hmm.

    5. JR

      AirDrop keeps a lot of fucking people on Apple.

    6. MM

      You think? All right.

    7. JR

      Oh, it's the best. You can make a video, like a long video, like a couple minutes long, and you can just AirDrop it to me. Whereas if you text it to me, especially if I have an Android phone-

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      ... ugh, it becomes this disgusting version.

    10. MM

      Yeah, it'll down-sample it and it's-

    11. JR

      Ugh.

    12. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. JR

      It looks terrible.

    14. MM

      Yeah. No, that's true. That's true.

    15. JR

      Yeah. Photographs are not too bad. I think that it, it does a down-sample of photographs as well?

    16. MM

      Sure. Yeah, yeah.

    17. JR

      But not too bad.

    18. MM

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      It's like, you could look at it. It looks like a good photograph.

    20. MM

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. JR

      But video's just god-awful. Y- It's embarrassing when someone sends you a video and you have it on an Android phone and you're like, "What the fuck did you just send me?"

    22. MM

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      "This is terrible." (laughs) Like, "What did you take this with? A flip phone from the '90s?"

    24. MM

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    25. JR

      "It's so bad."

    26. MM

      But, I mean, a lot of that is, like, uh... I, I think the reason that, that... the, the reason why it is that way is, is kind of interesting to me, which is, you know, it's like these are, um, protocol. You know, it's like when you're just using a normal SMS message on Android, you know? Uh, that was, like, this agreement that phone carriers made with each other in, like, you know, whenever-

    27. JR

      2002?

    28. MM

      No, before that. Way before.

    29. JR

      Really?

    30. MM

      You know?

  12. 1:05:21 – 1:19:12

    Moxie’s sailing life: boats, sextants, and the ‘begin by starting’ philosophy

    1. MM

      Yeah. It is beautiful. I used to work on boats down there.

    2. JR

      Yeah?

    3. MM

      Yeah. Uh-

    4. JR

      What'd you do on boats?

    5. MM

      Uh, I was, like, really, um... I don't know. I, I, for a while, was, like, really into sailing and, uh, I had a commercial license. I was moving boats around and stuff, but-

    6. JR

      My parents lived in a sailboat for a while.

    7. MM

      Oh, really?

    8. JR

      Yeah. Yeah, they just-

    9. MM

      For real?

    10. JR

      ... decided to just check out and, and, uh, this was, like... I wanna say, like, early 2000s, somewhere around then.

    11. MM

      Ah, nice.

    12. JR

      They just... lived on a sailboat for a few years till my mom got tired of it, just-

    13. MM

      Did they go around the world or...

    14. JR

      Uh, they went... They were in the Bahamas.

    15. MM

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      They were, uh... they were all around, like, that part of the world and they, they were in California for a little while, on their boat. You know, they just... they just decided, like, "Uh, let's just live on a boat for a while."

    17. MM

      Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I, I, I discovered sailing by accident where I was, like, um, working on a project with a friend in the early 2000s and we were looking on Craigslist for something unrelated and we saw a boat that was for sale for $4,000. And I thought a boat was, like, a million dollars or something.

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. MM

      I was just like, "What? You could... The sailboats are four thous- ... And this is just some listing, there's probably even cheaper boats," you know. Uh, and so we got really into it and we discovered that you can go to any Amer- uh, any, uh, marina in North America and get a boat for free. You know that, like, every marina has a lien sale dock on it where people have stopped paying their slip fees and the boats are just derelict and abandoned and they've, you know, put it on these docks and they rent 'em.

    20. JR

      Really?

    21. MM

      Yeah. They'll have an auction.

    22. JR

      You can get a boat for free?

    23. MM

      Yeah. They have an auction. Uh, there's usually, like, a, a minimum bid of, you know-

    24. JR

      50 bucks?

    25. MM

      ... 50 bucks or whatever, you know. And m- most times, it doesn't get bid on and they chop the boat up and, uh, throw it away.

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. MM

      And if you show up-

    28. JR

      So a functional boat?

    29. MM

      Well, functional is- (laughs)

    30. JR

      Oh, that's the problem, right?

Episode duration: 3:02:24

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