Joe Rogan Experience #1572 - Moxie Marlinspike

Moxie Marlinspike 0:02 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

Moxie Marlinspike 0:14 Uh, so like, we're gonna just sit here and talk for a long time, huh?

Joe Rogan 0:18 Yeah. We're started right now. We're started.

Moxie Marlinspike 0:20 Th- It has begun.

Joe Rogan 0:21 Yes (laughs) .

Moxie Marlinspike 0:23 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 0:23 W- What was your question, though?

Moxie Marlinspike 0:25 I was gonna ask, you know, like, what if something comes up, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 0:28 Like what?

Moxie Marlinspike 0:28 ... like, uh, you know, you need to, like, pee or something.

Joe Rogan 0:30 Oh, you can totally do that. Yeah. We'll just pause-

Moxie Marlinspike 0:32 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:32 ... and just run out and pee. That happens. D- Don't sweat it.

Moxie Marlinspike 0:35 All right, all right.

Joe Rogan 0:35 I want you to be comfortable.

Moxie Marlinspike 0:37 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Have you ever done a podcast before?

Moxie Marlinspike 0:38 First time.

Joe Rogan 0:39 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 0:39 First time.

Joe Rogan 0:40 Um, so tell me how, where Signal came from. What, what was the impetus? What was, how did it get started?

Moxie Marlinspike 0:48 It's a long story.

Joe Rogan 0:49 It's okay, we got time. We got plenty of time.

Moxie Marlinspike 0:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got time.

Joe Rogan 0:52 (laughs) .

Moxie Marlinspike 0:53 Uh, okay, well, you know, I think ultimately what we're trying to do with Signal is, um, stop mass surveillance, to bring some normality to the internet, and to, uh, explore a different way of developing technology that might ultimately serve all of us better.

Joe Rogan 1:09 We should tell people, maybes people just tuning in, Signal is an app that is, uh... Explain how it works and what, what it does. I use it. It's a, it's a messaging app, go ahead.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:20 It's a messaging app, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21 But-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:21 Fundamentally, it's just a messaging app, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23 Yes. Explain-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:24 From long, lofty aspirations to-

Joe Rogan 1:25 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:27 Uh, yeah. It's a messaging app, um, but it's, um, somewhat different from the, the way the rest of technology works because, um, it, uh, is encrypted. So, um, you know, uh, if... Typically, you know, if you want to send somebody a message, uh, I think most people's expectation is that when they write a message and they, you know, press send, that the people who can see that message are the person who wrote the message and the intended recipient. But, that's not actually the case. Uh, there's, you know, tons of people who are in between, who are monitoring these things, who are collecting data information. And Signal's different because, uh, we've designed it so that we don't have access to, uh, that information.

Joe Rogan 2:08 So, when you send an SMS, that is the least secure of all messages. So, if you have an Android phone and you use a standard messaging app, and you send a message to one of your friends, that is the least of all when, when it comes, when it comes to security, right?

Moxie Marlinspike 2:26 That's, uh, yeah, it's a low bar. That's, uh...

Joe Rogan 2:28 That's the low bar.

Moxie Marlinspike 2:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:29 And then iPhone, what is this, Signal?

Moxie Marlinspike 2:32 This is their site.

Joe Rogan 2:32 Oh, there you go.

Moxie Marlinspike 2:33 This is showing it.

Joe Rogan 2:33 Yeah. So, iPhones use iMessage, which is slightly more secure, but it gets uploaded to the cloud and it's a part of their iCloud service, so it goes to some servers and then goes to the other person. It's encrypted along the way, but it's still, it can be intercepted.

Moxie Marlinspike 2:55 Yeah, I mean, okay, so there's, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:56 Like Jeff Bezos, the situation.

Moxie Marlinspike 2:59 Uh, yeah, like Jeff Bezos situation, exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:01 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 3:01 There's a, like... Fundamentally, there's two ways to think about, uh, security. One is, uh, like computer security, uh, this idea that we'll somehow make computers secure. We'll put information on the computers and then we'll prevent other people from accessing those computers. And that is like a losing strategy that people have been losing for 30 years, you know. Uh, you, information ends up on a computer somewhere and it ends up compromised in the end. The other way to think about security is information security, where you secure the information itself, that you don't have to worry about the security of the computers. You could have some computers in the cloud somewhere, information's flowing through them, and people can compromise, compromise those things and it doesn't really matter because the information itself is encrypted. Um, and so, you know, things like SMS, um, you know, the iMessage cloud backups, um, uh, most other messengers, Facebook Messenger, all that stuff, you know, um, they're relying on this computer security model. Um, and that, uh, ends up disappointing people in the end.

Joe Rogan 3:55 Mm. And so, you, why did you guys create it? Like, what, what was unsatisfactory about the other options that were available?

Moxie Marlinspike 4:04 Well, because the way the internet works today is like insane. Uh, you know, that, uh, you know, fundamentally I feel like, um, private communication is important because I think that change happens in private. Um, everything that is fundamentally decent today, uh, started out as something that was a socially unacceptable idea at the time. Uh, you look at things like, you know, obvious things, the abolition of slavery, legalization of marijuana, legalization of same-sex marriage. Uh, even, you know, constructing the Decla- Declaration of Independence. Those are all things that required a space for people to process ideas outside the context of everyday life. And, um, those spaces don't exist on the internet today. And I think it's kind of crazy the way the internet works today. You know, that like if you imagined, um, you know, every moment that you were talking to somebody in real life, there was somebody there just with a clipboard, a stranger-

Joe Rogan 5:03 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 5:03 ... taking notes about what you said, that would change the character of your conversations. Uh, and I think that in some ways, like, we're living through a shortage of brave or bold or courageous ideas, in part because people don't have the space to process what's happening in their lives outside of the context of everyday interactions, you know?

Joe Rogan 5:26 That's a really good way to put it, because you gotta give people a chance to think things through. But if you do that publicly, they're not going to. They're going to sort of like, like basically what you see on Twitter.

Moxie Marlinspike 5:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:40 You know? If you stray from what is considered to be the acceptable norm or the current ideology or whatev- whatever you're supposed to, whatever opinions you're supposed to have on a certain subject, you get attacked, ruthlessly so. So, you see a lot of self-censorship and you also see a lot of virtue signaling, where people sort of pretend that they espouse a certain series of ideas because that'll get them some, you know, some social cred.

Moxie Marlinspike 6:09 Yeah, uh, exactly. I think that communication in those environments is performative, you know? You're either performing for an angry mob, you're performing for advertisers, you're performing for, you know, the governments that are watching.

Joe Rogan 6:22 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 6:23 Um, and I think also the ideas that make it through are kind of tainted as a result, you know? That like, uh, did you watch any of the, um, like the online hearing stuff that was happening over COVID? Uh, you know, where like, uh, city councils and stuff were having their hearings online?

Joe Rogan 6:40 No, I did not.

Moxie Marlinspike 6:41 Uh, it was kind of interesting to me because it's like, um, you know, they can't meet in person so they're doing it online. And, uh, that means that the public comment period was also online, you know? And so it used to be that like, you know, if you go to a city council meeting, uh, they have a period of public comment where, you know, people could just stand up and say what they think.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 6:57 You know? And like ordinarily it's like, "Oh, you gotta go to city hall, you gotta like wait in line, you gotta sit there," you know? But then when it's on Zoom, it's just sort of like anyone can just show up at-

Joe Rogan 7:05 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 7:05 ... on the Zoom thing. You know, they just dial in and then they're just like, "Here's what I think," you know? And, uh, you know, it was kind of interesting because particularly, uh, when a lot of the police brutality stuff was happening in Los Angeles, I was, I was watching those city council hearings. And, you know, people were just like, you know, you know, they were just calling, you know, it'd be like, "Fuck you. I yield the rest of my time, fuck you." You know?

Joe Rogan 7:27 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 7:27 Like it was just like, uh, really brutal and, uh, not undeservedly so. And, uh, you know, what was interesting to me was just watching the, the politicians basically, you know, uh, who just had to sit there and just, they were just like-

Joe Rogan 7:41 Take it.

Moxie Marlinspike 7:42 You know? (laughs) And then it was just like, you know, you get three minutes and then there's someone else who gets-

Joe Rogan 7:45 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 7:45 You know, and they're just like, "Okay, and now we'll hear from," you know, like sometimes. And, you know, watching that you sort of realize that it's like, um, to be a politician you have to just sort of fundamentally not really care what people think of you, you know? Uh, you have to fundamentally, uh, just be comfortable sitting, you know, and having people yell at you, you know, for three minute, in three minute increments for an hour or whatever, you know? And so it seems like what we've sort of done is like bred these people who are willing to do that, you know? And in some ways that's like a useful characteristic but in other ways that's the characteristic of a psychopath, you know? Who-

Joe Rogan 8:21 Yes.

Moxie Marlinspike 8:22 And-

Joe Rogan 8:22 Yes.

Moxie Marlinspike 8:23 And I think, you know, what we're seeing is that that also extends outside of those environments. That like, to do anything ambitious today requires that you just are comfortable with that kind of, um, feedback.

Joe Rogan 8:37 Like Trump's tweets.

Moxie Marlinspike 8:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:39 If you watch, you know, if you look at Twitter and look at any of Trump's tweets, when he tweets, watch what people say. (laughs) It's ruthless. They go crazy, they go so hard at him. So I'm assuming he doesn't read them. I'm assuming he just, or maybe he does and just doesn't say anything, but he n-

Moxie Marlinspike 8:56 I-

Joe Rogan 8:56 He doesn't go back and forth with people at least.

Moxie Marlinspike 8:59 No, but, and I'm, I, I think, you know, Trump is perfectly capable of just not caring. You know, there's like-

Joe Rogan 9:04 Yes.

Moxie Marlinspike 9:04 People like, you know, grazing his just like, "Yeah, whatever, what, you know, I'm the best." They don't, you know.

Joe Rogan 9:07 Yeah. (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 9:07 And like that's, um, you know, that's politics but I think, you know, the danger is when that, uh, you know, to do anything ambitious, you know, outside of politics or whatever, you know, requires that you're capable of just not caring, you know-

Joe Rogan 9:21 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 9:22 ... what people think or whatever, uh, because everything is happening in public.

Joe Rogan 9:25 I think you made a really good point in that change comes from people discussing things privately because you have to, it's a, you have to be able to take a chance. You have to be daring. And, and you have to be able to confide in people and you have to be able to say, "Hey, um, this is not right and we're gonna do something about it." If you do that publicly, the powers that be that do not want change in any way, shape, or form, they'll, they'll come down on you. And this is essentially what Edward Snowden was warning everyone about when he decided to go public with all this NSA information. He was saying, "Look, we, this is not what we signed up for." You, like someone's constantly monitoring your emails, constantly listening to phone calls. Like this is not, this mass surveillance thing, it's very bad for just the culture of free expression, just our ability to have ideas and to be able to share them back and forth and vet them out. It's very bad.

Moxie Marlinspike 10:25 Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think when you look at the, the history of that kind of surveillance there are a few interesting inflection points, you know? Like at the beginning of, um, you know, the internet as we know it in like the early to mid '90s, um, there were these like DOD efforts to do mass surveillance, you know? Um, and, um, they were sort of open about what they were doing. Uh, uh, and you know, one of them was this program called Total Information Awareness. Uh, and, uh, it was, they were trying to start this office I think called the Total Awareness Office or something within the DOD. And the idea was like they're just gonna like collect information, uh, on all Americans and everyone's communication and just stockpile it into these, uh, databases and then they would use that to, you know, mine those things for information. Uh, it was sort of like, you know, their, their, uh, effort to get in on this at the beginning of the information age. Uh, and you know, it was ridiculous. You know, it's like they called it Total Information Awareness. They had a logo that was like, um, you know, the, the pyramid with the eye on top of it. Oh yeah, this is, this is their logo.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Oh God.

Moxie Marlinspike 11:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:27 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 11:27 It's like the pyramid with the eye like casting a beam on Earth. That bit of Latin there means knowledge is power.

Joe Rogan 11:34 Oh, wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 11:36 And interesting this, this program was actually started by, uh, John Poindexter of all people, who was involved in the Iran-Contra stuff I think.

Joe Rogan 11:43 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 11:44 Yeah, yeah. And he, he like went to jail for a sec and then was pardoned or something, but.

Joe Rogan 11:47 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 11:48 Uh, so anyway, you know, they're, they're like-

Joe Rogan 11:51 It's just so fucked up these people are in charge of anything.

Moxie Marlinspike 11:54 I know but what's also I guess kind of comical is that like they were like, "This is what we're gonna do." You know?

Joe Rogan 11:58 Look how crazy this is.

Moxie Marlinspike 12:00 Like this, this is our plan, you know? And people were like, "Uh, I don't think so." Re- you know, like wait just a second.

Joe Rogan 12:05 What year was this?

Moxie Marlinspike 12:06 I, this was like early mid '90s.

Joe Rogan 12:08 Look at this authentication biometric data, face, fingerprints, gait, iris. Your gait?So they're going to identify people based on the way they walk?

Moxie Marlinspike 12:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:20 I guess your gait is that specific?

Moxie Marlinspike 12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:23 Um, then automated virtual data repositories, privacy and security. This is fascinating, because if you-

Moxie Marlinspike 12:30 Well-

Joe Rogan 12:30 ... look at, I mean, obviously no one thought of cellphones back then.

Moxie Marlinspike 12:33 Exactly, right. This is, so this is like kind of amateurish, right?

Joe Rogan 12:36 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 12:36 So it's like, they were like, "This is what we're going to do," you know? And people were like, "Uh, I don't think so." You know, even, like, Congress was like, "Uh, guys, I don't think we can, like, approve this," you know? Like, "You need a better logo," you know?

Joe Rogan 12:45 (laughs) Yeah, for sure.

Moxie Marlinspike 12:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:47 But it's just this whole flowchart. Is that what this would be? What do you call something like this?

Moxie Marlinspike 12:54 Uh...

Joe Rogan 12:54 What are these called? Uh, uh, works, I guess. Flowchart? Yeah. I guess, sort of?

Moxie Marlinspike 12:57 Designed to dazzle you-

Joe Rogan 12:59 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 12:59 ... into approving their funding.

Joe Rogan 13:00 It's, like, baffling to figure out what it is. Like, first of all, what are all those little color tubes? (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 13:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:05 Those little ones, those little cylinders?

Moxie Marlinspike 13:08 Oh, those are, those are data silos.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Oh.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:09 Data silos. That's the universal-

Joe Rogan 13:10 They're all different colors.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:11 There's purple ones.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:12 What's in the purple data?

Moxie Marlinspike 13:13 Well, Gate maybe.

Joe Rogan 13:14 That's Prince.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:14 That's where Gate lives, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:16 That's all Prince's information.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:18 But so, okay, so that, you know, this stuff all sort of got shut down, right?

Joe Rogan 13:21 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:22 They were like, they were like, "Okay, we can't do this," you know? Uh, and then instead, what ended up happening was, like, data naturally accumulated in different places. You know, that, um, you know, like back then, if you had been, you know, what they were trying to do is be like, "Our proposal is that everyone carry a government-mandated tracking device at all times. Like, what do you guys think? You know, it'll make us safer," you know? And people were like, "No, I don't think so," you know? But instead, everyone ended up just carrying cellphones at all times.

Joe Rogan 13:47 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 13:48 Which are tracking your location and reporting them into centralized repositories that government has access to, you know? And so, uh, you know, this, this sort of, like, oblique surveillance infrastructure ended up emerging. And that was what, you know, people sort of knew about, but, you know, or didn't really know. And that's what Snowden, um, revealed, was like, you know, instead... We don't have this. Instead, it's like all of that, all of those things are happening naturally, you know? You're, you know, gate detection, fingerprint, you know, like all this stuff's happening naturally, it's ending up in these, uh, places, and then,

Moxie Marlinspike 14:19 you know, governments are just going to those places and getting the information. Uh, and then I think, you know, the next inflection point was really, uh, Cambridge Analytica. Um, you know, that was a moment where I think people were like...

Joe Rogan 14:32 Explain that to people, please?

Moxie Marlinspike 14:34 Uh, Cambridge Analytica was, um, a, uh, a firm that was doing, um, like big data, um, using big data in order to, um, forecast and manipulate, um, people's opinions. Uh, and in particular, they, uh, were involved in the 2016 election. Uh, and it was sort of, you know, so it's like, you know, what Snowden revealed was PRISM, which was, um, the, the cooperation between the government and these places where data was naturally accumulating, like Facebook, Google, et cetera, you know, and the phone company. And, uh, Cambridge Analytica I think was the moment that people were like, "Oh, there's, like, also sort of like a private version of PRISM," you know? That's, like, not just governments, but, like, the data is out there, and other people who are motivated are using that against us, you know? Um, and I, so I think, you know, in the beginning, it was sort of like, "Oh, this could be scary." And then it was like, um, "Oh, but, you know, we're just using these services." And then people were like, "Oh, wait, the government is, you know, using the data that we're, uh, you know, sending to these services." And then people were like, "Oh, wait, like, anybody can use the data against us." And then we were like, "Oh, shit." You know, it's like, I think things went from like, um, "Ah, I don't really have anything to hide," to like, "Wait a second. These people can predict and influence how I'm going to vote based on what kind of jeans I buy?" You know. Uh, and, you know, and then, you know, sort of where we are today, where it's like, I think people are also beginning to realize that the companies themselves that are doing this kind of data collection are, are also not necessarily acting in our best interests.

Joe Rogan 16:08 Yeah, for sure. There, there's just two... There's, there's also this weird thing that's happening with these companies that are gathering the data, whether it's Facebook or Google or... I don't think they ever set out to be what they are. They started out, like Facebook, for example, we were talking about it before. It was really just sort of like a social networking thing, and this was in the early days. It was a business. I don't think anybody ever thought it was going to be something that influences world elections in a staggering way. Like, especially in other parts of the world, you know, where Facebook becomes the sort of de facto messaging app on your phone when you get it.

Moxie Marlinspike 16:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:53 I mean, it has had massive impact on, on politics, on shaping culture, on, on, I mean, even genocide has been connected to Facebook in, in certain, certain countries. You know, it's, it's weird that this thing that is in, I don't know how many different language Facebook ex- how many different languages does Facebook, uh, operate under?

Moxie Marlinspike 17:16 All of them. Whatever they-

Joe Rogan 17:17 All of them?

Moxie Marlinspike 17:17 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:17 I mean, th- this was just a s- a social app. It was from Harvard, right? They were just connecting students together? Wasn't that initially what the, the first iteration of it was?

Moxie Marlinspike 17:29 Yeah. Oh, okay, I mean, I think you can say, like, no one anticipated that these things would be this significant, um, but I also think that there's... You know, I think ultimately, like, what we end up seeing again and again is that, like, bad business models produce bad technology, you know? That, like, the point, you know, what we were talking about before, like, the point, you know... Mark Zuckerberg did not create Facebook because of his deep love of, like, social interactions. Like, he did not have some, like, deep sense of, like, wanting to connect people and connect the world. That's not his passion, you know? Uh, Jeff Bezos did not start Amazon because of his deep love of books. Uh, you know, uh, these companies are oriented around, um, profit, you know? They're, they're trying to make money, and, and they, uh, you know, they're, they're subject to external demands as a result. They have to, like, grow infinitely, you know? Um, which is insane, but that's the expectation. And, you know, so what we end up seeing is that, uh, the technology is not necessarily, uh, in our best interest, because that's not what it was designed for to begin with.

Joe Rogan 18:31 That is insane that companies are expected to grow infinitely.

Guest 2 18:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:37 I mean, they're literally exp- what, what is your expectation? To take over everything, to have all the money-

Guest 2 18:42 And then-

Joe Rogan 18:42 ... one day.

Guest 2 18:43 ... and then more, you know.

Joe Rogan 18:44 If, yeah, if we extrapolate, we, we anticipate we will have all the money. There will be no other money.

Guest 2 18:48 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:51 I mean, if you keep going, that's what has to happen. How can you just grow infinitely? That's bizarre.

Guest 2 18:56 Yeah, and that's why, I mean, you know, the, I think, you know, the Silicon Valley obsession with China is-

Joe Rogan 19:00 Yeah.

Guest 2 19:01 ... uh, you know, a big part of it, where people, they're just like, "Well, that's a lot of people there."

Joe Rogan 19:03 Yes.

Guest 2 19:04 You know? That's, that's another-

Joe Rogan 19:04 That's, that's a lot of people there.

Guest 2 19:05 ... thing people could just keep growing.

Joe Rogan 19:06 Yeah, there was a, a fantastic, uh, um, thing that I was reading this morning. God, I wish I could remember what the source of it was. But it was, uh, they were, they were essentially talking about how strange it is that there are so many people that are so anti-human trafficking, they're so pro-human rights, they're so anti-slavery, they're so... All the, the, the powerful values that we ascribe, uh, that we, that we, we think of when we think of Western civilization, we, we think of all these beautiful values, but that almost all of them rely on some form of slavery to get their electronics.

Guest 2 19:51 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:52 Yeah.

Guest 2 19:52 And it was just-

Joe Rogan 19:52 You have the, uh, eight grams of cobalt in your pocket over there-

Guest 2 19:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:56 ... that are mined by actual child slaves, like, you know.

Guest 2 19:59 Someone had to stick a s- like, literally, they're, they're getting it out of the ground.

Joe Rogan 20:03 Yeah.

Guest 2 20:03 Digging into the dirt to get it out of the ground. We were talking about it on the podcast the other day. We were like, "Is there a way that this could, that w- is there a future that you could foresee where you could buy a phone that is guilt free?" Like, if I buy a pair of shoes, like I bought a pair of boots from my friend, uh, Jocko's company. He's got a, a company called Origin. They make handmade boots. And like, it's made in a factory in Maine, you can see a tour of the factory, these guys are stitching these things together and it's a real quality boot. And I'm like, "I like that I could buy this. I know where it came from. I know that, I could, I could see a video of the guys making it." Like, this is a thing that I can feel like I am giving them money, they're giving me a, a, a product. Like, there's a, there's a nice exchange. It feels good. I don't feel like that with a phone. With a phone, I have this like bizarre disconnect. I try to pretend that I'm not buying something that's made in a factory where there's a fucking net around it because so many people jumped to their deaths, that instead of trying to make things better and say, "We just, we're gonna put nets up." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:05 "Catch these fuckers and put them back to work."

Guest 2 21:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:09 Is there, is it possible we could one- that we would all get together and say, "Hey, enough of this shit. Will you make us a goddamn phone that doesn't make me feel like I'm supporting slavery?"

Guest 2 21:23 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you're asking may- you know, I think-

Joe Rogan 21:26 Too much?

Guest 2 21:27 (laughs) I think you're asking... I think that's the same as asking like, will civilization ever decide that it wants to, that we collectively want to have like a su- sane and sustainable way of living?

Joe Rogan 21:40 Yeah.

Guest 2 21:40 Um-

Joe Rogan 21:41 Sane and sustainable?

Guest 2 21:42 And I hope the answer is yes.

Joe Rogan 21:44 I think a lot of us do, or you do, right?

Guest 2 21:48 I do. Uh-

Joe Rogan 21:48 You don't wanna buy a slave phone, right?

Guest 2 21:52 Yeah, I mean, I th- but okay, so, uh, you know, I feel like it's difficult to have this conversation-

Joe Rogan 21:57 Yeah.

Guest 2 21:57 ... without having a conversation about capitalism, right? Because like ultimately, you know, what we're talking about is like externalities that the prices of things don't incorporate their true cost, uh, you know, that like, you know, we're destroying the planet for plastic trinkets and reality television. Uh, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 22:12 We can have-

Guest 2 22:13 ... will that-

Joe Rogan 22:13 We can have a full conversation if you'd like.

Guest 2 22:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:15 W- w- let's, let's start with phones though. Let's start with, because it, it, when most people know the actual, the, the, the, the, the, from the origin of the materials, like how they're coming, uh, how they're getting out of the ground, how they're getting into your phone, how they're getting constructed, how they're getting manufactured, and, and, and assembled by these poor people. When most people hear about it, they, they, they don't like it, it makes them very uncomfortable, but they just sort of go, "La, la, la," they just plug their ears and keep going and buy the latest iPhone 12 'cause it's g- it's cool, it's new.

Guest 2 22:53 What would they do instead?

Joe Rogan 22:54 Well, if there was an option. So like, if you have a, a car that you know is being made by slaves or a car that's being made in Detroit by union workers, wouldn't you choose the car, as long as they are both of equal quality, I think a lot of people would feel good about their choice if they could buy something that, well, no, these people are, they're given a very good wage, they have health insurance and they're taken care of, they have a pension plan. There's all these good things that we would like to, to have ourselves th- these workers get. So, you should probably buy that car. Why isn't there an option like that for a phone? We looked at this thing called a Fairphone.

Guest 2 23:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:35 We're going over it. Can't even fucking buy it in America. Like, no, America has no options for fair. (laughs)

Guest 2 23:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:41 Like (laughs) they only, they only have them in like Holland and a couple other European countries.

Guest 2 23:46 Yeah. I mean, I, I think, uh, yeah, maybe it's good to, you know, start with the question of phones. I, I, I think if you really examined like most of the things in your everyday life, um, there is an apocalyptic aspect to them.

Joe Rogan 23:59 Yes.

Guest 2 24:00 I mean, even, you know, even agriculture, you know? It's just like-

Joe Rogan 24:03 Yes.

Guest 2 24:03 ... you know, the sugar you put in your co- you know, it's like I've been to the sugar beet harvest, you know, it's apocalyptic, you know? It's like, uh, you know, so I, I think there's just like an aspect of civilization that we don't usually see or think about, uh, day-to-day.

Joe Rogan 24:18 And it's a nonconscious, I mean, non, not nonconscious, but I mean conscious capitalism would be the idea that you are willing, you want to make a profit but you only want to make a profit if everything works. Like, the idea of me buying my shoes from Origin, like knowing, okay, these are the guys that make it, this is how they make it, I got, this is a good, this feel, makes me feel good, I like this. If there was that with everything-Like, if you, if you buy a home from a, a, a guy who you know built the home, like, this is the man, this is the con- this is the- the- the chief construction guy. This- these are the carpenters. This is the architect. Oh, okay, I get it. This all makes sense.

Moxie Marlinspike 25:02 Yeah, I mean, and that, I think that's the image that a lot of, uh, companies try to project.

Joe Rogan 25:06 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 25:06 You know what I mean? Uh, like, you know, even Apple will say, you know, it's like, "Designed by Apple in California." Right?

Joe Rogan 25:13 Sure.

Moxie Marlinspike 25:13 Uh, and-

Joe Rogan 25:13 Designed. (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 25:15 (laughs) And I think that's the same as, like, the architect and the builders that you know, you know, but those materials are coming from somewhere. Uh-

Joe Rogan 25:22 That's true. The wood is-

Moxie Marlinspike 25:23 That- that

Narrator 25:23 (overlapping dialogue)

Joe Rogan 25:23 ... coming from somewhere. Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 25:25 And, uh, you know, it's not just wood. There's, like, petrochemicals, like-

Joe Rogan 25:28 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 25:30 ... you know, that's... That- that whole supply chain is, uh, apocalyptic. And you're never gonna meet all of those people. Um, and so I, you know, I think, sure, they're... I think it's, you know, it's difficult to be in that market. Like, if you, if you wanna be in- in the market of conscious capitalism or whatever, because it's a market for lemons. Um, that it's... 'Cause it's so easy to just put a green logo on whatever it is that you're creating, uh, and no one will ever see the- the back of the supply chain.

Joe Rogan 25:56 That's a sad statement. What about humans?

Moxie Marlinspike 26:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:02 You know, that we're... That this is how... I mean, this is how we always do things if you- if you let us, if you leave us alone, if you... If there's a way, you know, I mean, privacy is so important when it comes to communication with individuals, and this is why I created Signal. But when you can sort of hide all the various elements that are involved in all these different process, all these different things that we buy and use and then, you know, as you said, they're apo- apocalyptic, which is a great way of describing it. If you're... I mean, if you're at the ground watching these kids pull coltan out of the ground in Africa, I mean, you'd probably feel really sick about your cellphone.

Moxie Marlinspike 26:46 Yeah. And, um, yeah, but I- I don't think... I think it's a little more complicated than to say that just, like, humans, um, are terrible or whatever.

Joe Rogan 26:57 No, I don't think humans are terrible. I think humans are great. But I think if you put humans together and you give them this diffusion of responsibility that comes from a corporation and then you give them a mandate, you have to make as much money as possible every single year, and then you have shareholders and you have all- all- all these different factors that will allow them to say, "Well, I just work for the company."

Moxie Marlinspike 27:19 Sure.

Joe Rogan 27:19 You know, "I'm not- I'm not... It's not my call, you know, I'm, I, I just..." You know, and you got the guy carving up a steak saying, "Listen, I'm so sorry that if- we have to use slaves, but look, Apple's worth $5 trillion. We've done a great job for our shareholders."

Moxie Marlinspike 27:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:32 At the end of the line-

Moxie Marlinspike 27:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:34 ... follow all the way down to the beginning and you literally have slaves.

Moxie Marlinspike 27:37 Yeah, I- I fundamentally agree and I think that that's, um, you know, that's... A- anytime you end up in a situation where, um, like, most people do not have the agency they would need in order to direct their life that they- the way that they would want, you know, direct their lives so that we're living in a sane and sustainable way, um, that I, yeah, I think is a problem. Uh, and I think that's the situation we're in now, you know? And honestly, I feel like, you know, the stuff that we were talking about before of, you know, people, um, you know, sort of being mean online, um, is a reflection of that. You know, that, um, that's the power that pe- that's the only power-

Joe Rogan 28:23 Yes.

Moxie Marlinspike 28:23 ... power that people have. You know, it's like-

Joe Rogan 28:25 Right. Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 28:25 ... you know, like, you know, the only thing they... If the on- the only thing you can do is call someone a name, you're gonna call them a name, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:32 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 28:32 And I think that it's like, yeah, it's unfortunate, um, but I think it is also, um, unfortunate that most people have so little agency and control over the way that the world works that that's all they have to do.

Joe Rogan 28:49 And I guess you would say also that the people that do have power, that are running these corporations don't take into account what it would be like to be the person at the bottom of the line, to be the person that is... There's no, there's no discussion. There's no, like, board meetings. Like, "Hey, guys, what are we doing about slavery?"

Moxie Marlinspike 29:10 (laughs) Well, no, I don't-

Joe Rogan 29:11 "Like, hey, guys."

Moxie Marlinspike 29:11 ... I- I'm sure that, I'm sure that they do talk about that, uh, honestly. I think-

Joe Rogan 29:15 But they've done nothing.

Moxie Marlinspike 29:16 Uh, they've probably done something or they've probably done what they think is something, but I think it's, um... Even, you know, even the CEO of a company is someone who's just doing their job at the end of the day. You know, that they can't... They don't have ultimate control and agency over how it is that, uh, a company performs 'cause they are accountable to their shell- shareholders, they're accountable to the board.

Joe Rogan 29:35 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 29:36 So, you know, that it's like... I think there is a tendency for people to look at what's happening, particularly with technology today, and think that it's the fault of the people, um, you know, like the- the leaders of these companies, you know? And, you know, I, like, um, I think it goes both ways, you know? Uh, Slavoj Zizek, um, always talks about, um, when you look at the old political speeches, um, you know, if you look at the fascist leaders, um, you know, they would give a speech and when there was a- a moment of applause, um, they would just sort of stand there and accept the applause, because in their ideology, uh, they were responsible for the thing that people were applauding, you know? And if you watch the old communist leaders, you know, like when Stalin would give a speech, um, and he would say something and there would be a moment of applause, he would also applaud. Uh, because in their ideology of historical materialism, they were just agents of history. They were just the tools of the inevitable. Uh, it wasn't them, you know, they had just sort of been chosen as the agents of this thing that was an inevitable process, and so they were applauding history, you know? And sometimes when I see, like, the CEOs of tech companies give speeches, uh, and people applaud, I kind of feel like they should also be applauding.

Joe Rogan 30:46 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 30:46 You know, that it's not...... them, you know, that-

Joe Rogan 30:49 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 30:49 ... uh, technology has its own agency, its own force that they're the tools of, in a way.

Joe Rogan 30:58 That's a very interesting way of looking at it. The, uh, yeah, they are the tools of it and at this point, if we look at where we are in 2020, t- in this- it seems inevitable. It seems like there's just this unstoppable amount of momentum behind innovation and behind the, just the process of creating newer, better technology and constantly putting it out, and then dealing with the demand for that newer, better technology, and then competing with all the other people that are also putting out newer, better technology. And this- and then (claps) -

Moxie Marlinspike 31:33 (laughs) Yeah, yeah. Hey.

Joe Rogan 31:34 Look what we're doing.

Moxie Marlinspike 31:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:35 We're- we are helping the demise of human beings-

Moxie Marlinspike 31:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:39 ... because I feel, and I've- I've said this multiple times and I'm gonna say it again, I think that we are the electronic caterpillar that will give way to the butterfly. We are- we don't know what we're doing. We are putting together something that's going to take over. We are putting together some ultimate being, some symbiotic connection between humans and- and technology, or literally an artificial version of life. Not even artificial, a version of life constructed with silicone and- and wires and- and things that we're making. We're- we're- if we keep going the way we're going, we're gonna come up with a technology that is gonna be ex machina. It's gonna- it's gonna pass the Turing test and it's going to literally be something that's better than what we are, a better version of a human being.

Moxie Marlinspike 32:29 I think we're a ways away. Uh-

Joe Rogan 32:31 Yeah, we're a ways away, but what- how many ways? 50 years?

Moxie Marlinspike 32:35 Uh, the moment that I can put my hand under the, like, automatic sink thing-

Joe Rogan 32:40 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 32:40 ... and have the soap come out without, like-

Joe Rogan 32:42 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 32:42 ... waving arou- you know, like, then I'll be worried, you know? But like, you know-

Joe Rogan 32:45 Oh, that's simplistic, sir.

Moxie Marlinspike 32:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:47 How dare you. Well, here's a good example. The- you know the Turing test, is- the Turing test is, uh, if, uh, someone sat down with, like, an ex machina. Remember that- that- the je-

Moxie Marlinspike 32:57 Sure.

Joe Rogan 32:57 It's one of my all-time favorite movies, where the coder is brought in to talk to the-

Moxie Marlinspike 33:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:02 ... the woman. He f- falls in love with the robot lady and h- she passes the Turing test 'cause he's- he's in love with her. I mean, he really- he really can't differentiate. In his mind, that is a woman, that's not a robot. Who- was it Alan Turing? What was the- the gentleman's name?

Moxie Marlinspike 33:19 Alan Turing.

Joe Rogan 33:19 Alan Turing, that came up with the Turing test. You know, he- he was a gay man in England in the 1950s when it was illegal to be gay, and they-

Moxie Marlinspike 33:30 Killed himself.

Joe Rogan 33:30 ... chemically castrated him-

Moxie Marlinspike 33:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:32 ... because of that, and he wound up killing himself. That's only 70 years ago.

Moxie Marlinspike 33:38 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:39 Just fucking insane. I mean, just think that this- this man back then was thinking there is going to be a time where we will have some kind of an- a creation where we- we imitate life, the current life that we're aware of. Where we're gonna make a version of it that's going to be indis- indistinguishable from the versions that are biological. And that very guy, by whatever twisted ideas of what human beings should or shouldn't do, whatever expectations of culture at the time, is forced to be chemically castrated and winds up committing suicide just by the hand of humans. Fucking strange, man. Like, really strange.

Moxie Marlinspike 34:27 I mean, uh, worse than strange. I mean, that's-

Joe Rogan 34:31 Oh, yes.

Moxie Marlinspike 34:32 ... yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 34:32 Horrible.

Moxie Marlinspike 34:33 ... perfect, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:33 But I mean, but so bizarre that this is the guy that comes up with the test of- of like, how do we know when something is... Like, what- what- when it passes, when you have an artificial person that passes for a person, and then what kind of rights do we give this per- what is this? Like, what- what- what is it? Like, if it has emotions, what if it cries? Are you allowed to kick it? You know, like, what do you do? Like, that's, uh, but I made it, I turned it on. I could fucking torture it. But you can't, it's screaming. It's- it's in agony. Don't do that.

Moxie Marlinspike 35:07 Yeah. I mean, I- y- you know, I don't think about this stuff that often, but i- it is, you know, it's an- an empirical test, right? So it's like, um, it's a way to avoid having to define what consciousness is, right? Uh, which is kind of strange. We're conscious beings and we don't actually really even know what that means.

Joe Rogan 35:22 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 35:23 Uh, and so instead we have this empirical test where it's just sort of like, well, if you can't tell the difference, um, you know, without being able to see it, then uh, then we'll just call it that. Uh, you know.

Joe Rogan 35:33 I think that is really a lot closer than we think. I think that's- I think that's 50 years. I think that if everything goes well, I think I'm gonna be a 103-year-old man-

Moxie Marlinspike 35:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:45 ... on my dying bed being taken care of by robots. And I'm gonna feel real fucked up about that. I'm gonna be like, "Oh my God, I can't believe this."

Moxie Marlinspike 35:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:54 "I'm gonna leave and then all the people that I knew that are alive, they- they're the last of the people. This is it. The robots are gonna take over." And what's- they're not even gonna be robots. They gotta come up with some cool name for them.

Moxie Marlinspike 36:05 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of, um ... Most of what I see in like the artificial intelligence world right now is not really intelligence, you know? It's, uh, it's just matching, you know. It's like you show a model an image of 10 million cats, and then you can show it an image and it will be like, "I predict that this is a cat." And then you can show it an image of a truck and it'll be like, "I predict that this is not a cat."

Joe Rogan 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 36:28 Uh, and I don't ... I think there's one way of looking at it that's like, well, you just do that with enough things enough times and that's what intelligence is, um, but I kind of hope not. And I th- you know, the way that- the way that it's being a- approached right now I think is also, uh, dangerous in a lot of ways because what we're doing is just feeding information about the world into these models and that just encodes the existing biases and problems with the world into the things that we're creating, um, and...... you know, that I think has, uh, negative results. But, but I, yes, it's true, like this ecosystem is moving and, and it's advancing and whatever. And I think the thing that I think is unfortunate is that, like right now, that ecosystem, this sort of, um, like really capital-driven investment, uh, startup sort of ecosystem, has a monopoly on like groups of young people trying to do something ambitious together in the world. And, uh, in the same way that I think it's unfortunate that like grad school has a monopoly on groups of people

Moxie Marlinspike 37:29 learning things together, you know? Um, and so part of what we're trying to do different with Signal is, it's a nonprofit, uh, so, uh, because we wanna be for something other than profit. Um, and so we're trying to like explore a different way of like groups of people, you know, doing something mildly ambitious.

Joe Rogan 37:45 Has anyone come along and go, "I know it's a nonprofit, but would you like to sell?"

Moxie Marlinspike 37:48 (laughs) Uh, y- uh, well, you can't do that. It's like encoded-

Joe Rogan 37:52 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 37:52 ... in the, the, the structure. There's nothing to sell. There's no equity.

Joe Rogan 37:55 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 37:55 There's nothing.

Joe Rogan 37:55 It's kind of amazing though, that you guys have figured out a way to create, like basically a better version of iMessage that you could use on Android. Because one of the big complaints about Android is the lack of-

Moxie Marlinspike 38:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:08 ... any encrypted messaging services.

Moxie Marlinspike 38:10 Yeah. Or just good messaging services. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:11 And, and yeah, they've just recently come out with their own version of iMessage, but it kinda sucks. You can't do group chats. There's a, a lot of things you can't-

Moxie Marlinspike 38:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:20 ... do with it. And it, and it's, it's encrypted, but is, is the new me- and it, I don't think it's rolled out everywhere too, right? It's not everywhere.

Moxie Marlinspike 38:27 I don't think it's rolled out at all, actually.

Joe Rogan 38:29 Oh.

Moxie Marlinspike 38:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:29 You could get a beta, is that what it is?

Moxie Marlinspike 38:31 Yeah. I don't, I don't know what the... You're right. So it's like, um, the, you know, Android, so Google for Android makes an app called Messages, which is just the standard SMS texting app. And they put that on the phones that they make, like the Pixel and stuff like that, you know? And then there's the rest of the ecosystem, you know, there's like, you know, Samsung devices, Huawei devices, you know, all this stuff. Um, and it sort of, it depends, you know, what's, what's on those things. And so they've been trying to move from this very old standard called SMS that you mentioned before, to this newer thing called RCS, um, which actually, I don't know what that stands for. I think in my mind I always think of it as standing for too little too late. Uh, but they're trying (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 39:13 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 39:13 ... they're trying to move to that. Uh, and, uh, so they're doing that on the, the device, the part of the ecosystem that they control, which is the, the, the devices that, um, they make and sell. And they're trying to get other people on board as well. And they, originally RCS didn't have any facility for end-to-end encryption, and, uh, they're actually using our stuff, the Signal protocol, uh, in the, uh, the new version of RCS that they're shipping. So I, I think they've announced that, but I don't know if it's, if it's on or not.

Joe Rogan 39:42 I have two bones to pick with you guys.

Moxie Marlinspike 39:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:44 Two things that I don't necessarily like.

Moxie Marlinspike 39:46 Bring it on. All right.

Joe Rogan 39:47 One, when, uh, I downloaded Signal and I joined, basically everyone that I'm friends with who was also on Signal got a message that I'm on Signal.

Moxie Marlinspike 39:57 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 39:57 So you ratted me out. You ratted me out to all these people that are in my contact list.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:02 Why do you want it to be difficult for people to communicate with you privately?

Joe Rogan 40:05 Well, me personally, because there's a lot of people that have my phone number that I wish didn't have my phone number.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:11 And now all of a sudden they got a message from me that I'm on Signal.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:13 And then they send me a message, "Hey, I'd like this from you. I want you to do that for me."

Moxie Marlinspike 40:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:18 "How about call me about this? I got a project..." (babbles)

Moxie Marlinspike 40:21 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 40:22 So I just wish you didn't like rat me out. I wish there was like a way that you could say, "Do you want everyone to know that you just joined Signal? Yes or no?"

Moxie Marlinspike 40:30 Yep.

Joe Rogan 40:30 I'd say, "No." Another one, those little dot, dot, dots, the ellipsis.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:35 Yeah. Can you shut that off? 'Cause I don't want anybody to know that I'm responding to a text.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:39 Yeah, you can turn it off.

Joe Rogan 40:39 Can you turn that off? Oh, okay.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:41 So it's in the settings?

Moxie Marlinspike 40:42 Yeah. Privacy settings.

Joe Rogan 40:43 Okay.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:43 You can turn off typing indicators, you can turn it off. Read receipts-

Joe Rogan 40:45 Okay.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:45 ... you can turn off. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 That's a big problem with iMessage. People get mad at you. Like if you see-

Moxie Marlinspike 40:49 Oh, yeah. They saw it today, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:50 They see the dot, dot, dots, and then there's no message.

Moxie Marlinspike 40:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Like, "Hey, you were gonna respond and then you didn't."

Moxie Marlinspike 40:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:55 Like, why don't you just relax? Just go about your life-

Moxie Marlinspike 40:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:58 ... and pretend that I didn't text you back yet. 'Cause I will, but it's not like the dot, dot, dots, like people are, "Oh, it's coming. Here comes the message." And then there's no message again. (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 41:10 Yeah. You can turn that off. You can also turn off read receipts so people don't, don't even know if you've read their messages.

Joe Rogan 41:14 Yes. That's good too.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:15 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:15 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:16 ... the-

Joe Rogan 41:16 My friend, Saagar, has it set up so that if you, uh, he texts you, you have 30 minutes, bitch. And then they all disappear, all the messages disappear. He's got the-

Moxie Marlinspike 41:24 Oh, oh, the disappearance.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:25 That's a, that's kind of a sweet move.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:27 I like that.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:28 Yeah. Um, with the, um, like the discovery question of like, can ... You don't want people to know that you're on Signal. Um, it's kind of ... So we're working on it, but it's, it's a more difficult problem than you might imagine, because, um, you want some people to know that you're on Signal, you know, it's like you want some people-

Joe Rogan 41:45 So text them.

Moxie Marlinspike 41:46 (laughs) So you want nobody to know, ever?

Joe Rogan 41:48 Well, me personally, I, I have a unique set of problems that comes with, uh, anything that I do, like with messaging and stuff. It's like th- I just, there's too m- I know too many people. I have changed my number once a year.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:01 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:01 It's just, I have, and I have multiple phone numbers.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:04 I got a lot of problems.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:06 But this is, this is a unique problem with me, that it's like all of a sudden I'm getting like, "How the fuck does he know?" And then I had to ask someone, they go, "Oh no, when you sign up, it sends everybody on your contact list that's on Signal a message that says you're on Signal." I'm like, "Oh."

Moxie Marlinspike 42:22 Yeah. Well, we don't send that actually. Uh, just as a ... I know you don't care, but the, we don't actually know who your contacts are, you know, so it's like-

Joe Rogan 42:28 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:28 ... we, we don't know-

Joe Rogan 42:28 Signal does though, the app does.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:31 The, the app on your phone does. And it, and it doesn't even send a message to those people. It's just that those people know-

Joe Rogan 42:36 That you're on Signal.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:37 They, those people know your phone number and the, that app now knows that that phone number is on Signal and so they-

Joe Rogan 42:42 Did you do that just to get more people to use Signal? Was it an idea of, the, the reason why, like why when you sign up for Signal does it send all the other people on your contact list on Signal a message?

Moxie Marlinspike 42:54 ... uh, a lot of people like it. So, a lot of people like, like knowing who th- they can communicate with.

Joe Rogan 42:58 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 42:59 Uh, and so, uh, we're trying to make it so... And the other thing is, like, we try to square the actual technology with the way that it appears to work to people, right?

Joe Rogan 43:07 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 43:07 So, like, right now, with most technology, it seems like, you know, you send a message and the person who can see it is the person you received... you sent the message to, you know?

Joe Rogan 43:13 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 43:13 The intended recipient, you know? And that's not how it actually works. Um, and so, like, a lot of what we're trying to do is actually just square the way the technology actually works with what it is that people perceive.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Mm-hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 43:23 Uh, and so, like, fundamentally right now, you know, Signal is based on phone numbers. If you register with your phone number, like, some people are going to know that they can contact you on Signal. There's, th- it's very difficult to make it so that they can't, you know? That, like, uh, if we, if we didn't do that, you know, they could hit the compose button and see just that they could send you a message. You know, they would just see you in the list of contacts that they can send messages to, you know? And then if we, like, didn't display that, like, they could just try and send you a message and see whether, like, a message goes through or not. You know, like-

Joe Rogan 43:55 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 43:55 ... it's always possible to, like, detect whether it is that you're on Signal, the way that things are currently designed.

Joe Rogan 44:00 It's interesting also how it works so much differently with Android than it does with iMessage. Like, with Android, it'll also send an SS- an SMS. I noticed that, uh, I can use Signal as my main messaging app-

Moxie Marlinspike 44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 ... on Android, and it'll send SMS or it'll send a Signal message.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:16 It doesn't do that with, uh, i- with iPhones.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:19 Yeah. Apple doesn't let you.

Joe Rogan 44:21 Yeah. I found that pretty interesting 'cause I tried to send people messages. I thought it would just send it as an SMS and it didn't.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:27 Yeah. We would if we could, but Apple-

Joe Rogan 44:28 Just sent it to the ether.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:30 ... doesn't, doesn't allow it.

Joe Rogan 44:32 (imitates explosion) It doesn't allow it? Interesting 'cause Apple's scared of you.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:36 Um-

Joe Rogan 44:36 Say it. Say it. They're fucking scared.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:38 (laughs) No, I mean, I, they-

Joe Rogan 44:39 They should be.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:40 A- Apple is-

Joe Rogan 44:41 It's a better version of what they've got. How about that?

Moxie Marlinspike 44:44 Uh, I agree. But, uh, yeah. I mean, they, they have a much more complicated answer, but maybe you could distill it down to that.

Joe Rogan 44:50 You guys need to just develop your own version of AirDrop and then no one will need Apple ever again.

Moxie Marlinspike 44:55 Yeah. We'll implement it.

Joe Rogan 44:56 That's what's holding people back. Like, a universal AirDrop?

Moxie Marlinspike 44:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:59 AirDrop keeps a lot of fucking people on Apple.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:02 You think? All right.

Joe Rogan 45:02 Oh, it's the best. You can make a video, like a long video, like a couple minutes long, and you can just AirDrop it to me. Whereas if you text it to me, especially if I have an Android phone-

Moxie Marlinspike 45:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:13 ... ugh, it becomes this disgusting version.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:15 Yeah, it'll down-sample it and it's-

Joe Rogan 45:16 Ugh.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:16 It looks terrible.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:17 Yeah. No, that's true. That's true.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Yeah. Photographs are not too bad. I think that it, it does a down-sample of photographs as well?

Moxie Marlinspike 45:25 Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:25 But not too bad.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:27 It's like, you could look at it. It looks like a good photograph.

Moxie Marlinspike 45:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:30 But video's just god-awful. Y- It's embarrassing when someone sends you a video and you have it on an Android phone and you're like, "What the fuck did you just send me?"

Moxie Marlinspike 45:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:37 "This is terrible." (laughs) Like, "What did you take this with? A flip phone from the '90s?"

Moxie Marlinspike 45:43 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:43 "It's so bad."

Moxie Marlinspike 45:44 But, I mean, a lot of that is, like, uh... I, I think the reason that, that... the, the reason why it is that way is, is kind of interesting to me, which is, you know, it's like these are, um, protocol. You know, it's like when you're just using a normal SMS message on Android, you know? Uh, that was, like, this agreement that phone carriers made with each other in, like, you know, whenever-

Joe Rogan 46:09 2002?

Moxie Marlinspike 46:09 No, before that. Way before.

Joe Rogan 46:10 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 46:10 You know?

Joe Rogan 46:11 '96?

Moxie Marlinspike 46:11 Yeah, yeah. Exactly, you know? And then have, they've been unable to change the way that it works since then because, um, you have to get everyone to agree.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Right. And is Apple holding back some sort of a universal standard? Because if they did have a universal standard, then everyone would have this option to use. You could use a Samsung phone or a Google phone. You could use anything and everybody would be able to message you clearly without a problem. Like, one of the things that holds people back is if you switch from an iPhone to an Android phone-

Moxie Marlinspike 46:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:40 ... you lose all those iMessages.

Moxie Marlinspike 46:41 All those iMessages. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:43 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 46:43 Yeah, th- uh, yeah, they're probably doing that intentionally 'cause they-

Joe Rogan 46:46 Fucking weasels.

Moxie Marlinspike 46:47 They want (laughs) they want people to continue to use iPhone.

Joe Rogan 46:49 (laughs) Don't they have enough money? Like, Jesus Christ.

Moxie Marlinspike 46:51 There's never enough, Jo- never enough.

Joe Rogan 46:52 That's the problem. That is the problem, right?

Moxie Marlinspike 46:54 Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's like, I think the thing that everyone's worried about right now with Apple is, like, uh, you know, Apple, um, you know, when I said before of, like, bad business models produce bad technology. Um, you know, thus far, Apple's business model is, uh, much better than, you know, Google or Facebook or Amazon, or, you know. Like, their, their business is predicated on selling phones, selling hardware, you know? And, um, that means that they, um, can think a little bit more thoughtfully about the way that their software works than other people. And I think (sighs) what people are concerned about is that the, that that business model is going to change. You know, that they, they've, they're, you know, approaching an asymptote of how many ph- phones that they can sell. And so now they're looking at, like, software, you know? They're like, "What if we had our own search engine? What if we had-"

Joe Rogan 47:44 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 47:44 "... you know, our own thing?"

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 47:45 "What if we had..." You know, you know? And the moment that that starts to happen, then they're sort of, you know, moving in the direction of the rest of big tech. Uh, which, you know, who, who knows how they do it? But th- th- that's what I think people are concerned about.

Joe Rogan 47:58 They've done a better job at protecting your privacy though, in terms of, like, particularly, like, G- Apple Maps. Like, their map app is far superior in terms of sharing your information than, say, like, the Google Maps. But the argument you could make is that Google Maps is a superior product because they share that information. Like, Google Maps is also Waze now, right? Like-

Moxie Marlinspike 48:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:23 ... they bought Waze, which is fantastic. It lets you know where the cops are, you know, there's an accident up ahead, all kinds of shit, right? But Apple Maps was not that good. It's, I use it because I like the ethic behind it. I like their idea-

Moxie Marlinspike 48:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:39 ... behind it. They, they delete all the information after you make... You know, if you go to a destination, it's not saving it and sending it to a server and making sure it knows, like, you know, uh, what was there and what wasn't there and how well you, you traveled and sharing information. They, they're not doing that. They're not sharing your information, right?

Moxie Marlinspike 49:00 Um, I'm ... We don't know. (laughs) You know? It's like, I'm sure that they have a policy. Uh, I haven't read the policy and-

Joe Rogan 49:06 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 49:06 ... maybe the policy says that. Um, but-

Joe Rogan 49:10 Supposedly.

Moxie Marlinspike 49:11 So, you-

Joe Rogan 49:11 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 49:11 You know? I ... But, and you're also sort of ... You're still in the, in the world of, like, um, trying to make computers secure, right? You know, it's like, there's probably data. The data's probably accumulating somewhere and maybe people can compromise those places, you know? Um, we don't know. But I ... And, and I ... For sure, the, the intent behind the software that they have constructed, I think has been much better than a lot of the other players in big tech. I think the concern is just that as that software becomes a larger part of their bottom line, that that might change.

Joe Rogan 49:44 I wonder if they could figure out a way to have an "I don't give a fuck" phone or "I care" phone. Like, you wanna have an "I don't give a fuck" phone? This phone is like, "Who knows who's makin' it? But look, it's really good. It's got a f- hundred megapixel camera and all this jazz, and a 5,000 milliamp battery." And then you've got an "I care" phone. An "I care" phone is like, like an iPhone X.

Moxie Marlinspike 50:11 It w- uh ... But what is ... What's the ... What's different about the "I care" phone?

Joe Rogan 50:13 The "I care" phone, you get like a, a clear line of distinction. You get, you get a, a real clear path. This is where we got our materials.

Moxie Marlinspike 50:23 Oh, I see.

Joe Rogan 50:24 These are the people that are making it.

Moxie Marlinspike 50:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:25 This is how much they're getting paid. They're at ... Everyone is unionized. They're all getting healthcare. This is ... They'll have 401K plans.

Moxie Marlinspike 50:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:34 This is ... Yeah. It costs a little bit more-

Moxie Marlinspike 50:36 I think that-

Joe Rogan 50:37 ... and it's not as good.

Moxie Marlinspike 50:37 If you, if you truly encapsated all of the social costs with producing that phone, I think it would cost more than a little bit more. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:44 How much more do you think it would cost?

Moxie Marlinspike 50:45 Uh, I think some astronomical number, you know? That it's like, the re- ... You know, it's like, it's not like ... I'm sure Apple would prefer not to have child slaves mining cobalt for the batteries that are in their phone. Uh-

Joe Rogan 50:56 Is that a thing you can say when a company's worth as much as most countries? Like, they have so much cash.

Moxie Marlinspike 51:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Can you really say that they, they would rather not use slaves?

Moxie Marlinspike 51:08 No, I'm sure.

Joe Rogan 51:08 Can you imagine?

Moxie Marlinspike 51:08 I'm sure that at the board meeting they're just like-

Joe Rogan 51:10 Like, "I don't wanna go broke. I have, only have 14 trillion."

Moxie Marlinspike 51:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:13 "What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? I need slaves. I need someone to dig the, the, the coltan-

Moxie Marlinspike 51:19 Well, okay. Well, also, what would you do if you were them?

Joe Rogan 51:21 "... outta the Congo." What would I do if I was them?

Moxie Marlinspike 51:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:23 Well, first of all, I could never be them. It would never work. Uh, but if I was, I would say, "Hey, um, why don't we open up a factory in America? And why don't we-

Moxie Marlinspike 51:33 But you gotta mine the cob- There's ... The cobalt is in America.

Joe Rogan 51:35 Why don't ... Right. Why don't we get all of our cobalt from recycled phones? Is that possible? 'Cause that ... If it was-

Moxie Marlinspike 51:42 Who the hell's gonna recycle them?

Joe Rogan 51:44 That's a good question. I would think that's what the Fairphone's trying to do, right? Isn't it? Aren't they using all recycled materials?

Moxie Marlinspike 51:50 Yeah, I, I mean, I don't ... Any image I've seen of electronic recycling is equally apocalyptic, you know? There's just piles of shit, like, in some ... Next to a lake in China where people are-

Joe Rogan 52:01 You're bumming me out, man.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:02 Uh-

Joe Rogan 52:02 How about we turn ... (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 52:04 But I think, I think if you were the CEO of Apple and you were like, "This is a priority. We're gonna spend, you know, however many trillions of dollars it takes to do this," um-

Joe Rogan 52:11 Your shareholders go, "Hey, fuck face."

Moxie Marlinspike 52:13 "You're fired." (claps) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:14 "Out."

Moxie Marlinspike 52:15 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 52:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:17 You would have to be the Grand Poobah of Apple. You'd have to be the ultimate ruler.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:22 But it's not ... Like, um, even then, if you were just like, you know, "I'm willing to take the hit. You know, uh, I'm gonna do ... No one can oust me," or whatever. "I'm the Grand- the Grand Poobah," you know?

Joe Rogan 52:33 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:34 Then it's like, your share price plummets, which means that, um, your employee retention plummets because those people are also working for the equity and-

Joe Rogan 52:41 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:42 ... you know? So it's like-

Joe Rogan 52:42 Stock options.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:42 ... now they're working less and so then they get poached away by these other companies.

Joe Rogan 52:45 Mm.

Moxie Marlinspike 52:45 You know, and it's like, it's-

Joe Rogan 52:46 Mm, dirty companies come and steal your clean employees.

Guest 3 52:49 This is what Apple's website says now. It says they're committed to one day sourcing 100%.

Joe Rogan 52:54 Look at this, "Completely recycled, every bit as advanced."

Guest 3 52:59 One day.

Joe Rogan 52:59 "They're committed to one day sourcing, one day. We're planning on the year 30,000."

Guest 3 53:06 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 53:06 I mean, I ... You know, it's like, I don't ... They, they're not-

Joe Rogan 53:09 100%.

Moxie Marlinspike 53:09 They're not, like, sitting around twirling their mustaches, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 53:12 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 53:12 It's just like everyone-

Joe Rogan 53:13 I mean, maybe they are.

Moxie Marlinspike 53:13 ... likes good things and not bad things.

Joe Rogan 53:15 Maybe they are. Let me read that again, Jamie? It says, um, uh, "100% recyclable and renewable materials across all of our products and packaging, because making doesn't have to mean taking from the planet." Oh, come on, you guys. It's like Nike. It's the same thing, too, right? They're all committed to Black Lives Matter and all these social justice causes and they're using slave labor, too. You know? Aren't they? In China, they're, they're using slave labor to make Nikes.

Moxie Marlinspike 53:40 Probably.

Joe Rogan 53:41 So go back to that, um, that thing.

Guest 3 53:43 Uh.

Joe Rogan 53:44 What are they trying to do?

Guest 3 53:45 What's ... I ... They have, like, this ro- ... I remember seeing a robot they have that can d- like, whatever, take the-

Joe Rogan 53:50 Lighter on the planet, right out of the box.

Guest 3 53:52 ... takes the pieces out of it at a very fast rate than, like, probably human hands can.

Joe Rogan 53:56 Oh, okay.

Guest 3 53:56 So that's what I was trying to dig through here but I found that.

Joe Rogan 53:58 Well, that would be good.

Guest 3 53:59 I think that's the robot.

Joe Rogan 54:01 That's the re- the piece-taking robot?

Guest 3 54:03 Daisy, it's Daisy.

Joe Rogan 54:03 This is Daisy. Don't name her. You name her, you got a problem.

Guest 3 54:08 There you go, 2030.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Right? (laughs)

Guest 3 54:10 There you go. Entirely clean energy, which isn't quite as ... It's ... You know.

Joe Rogan 54:14 "2030 means transitioning hundreds of our manufacturing suppliers to 100% renewable sources of electricity." Well, that's interesting. If they can actually do that, 100% resource or, uh, using all the ... If they can figure out a way to do that and to have, uh, recyclable materials and have all renewable electricity, whether it's wind or solar, if they can really figure out how to do that, I think that would be pretty amazing. But who's gonna put it together? Are they gonna still use slaves to put it together? I mean, I, uh ... I guess the people-

Moxie Marlinspike 54:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:54 ... that are working at Foxconn are technically slaves, but would you want your child to work there, you know?

Moxie Marlinspike 55:00 Yeah, I mean, I think you can say that about a lot of the aspects of our economy, though, you know? Would ... Who would willingly go into a coal mine?

Joe Rogan 55:07 Yes. Right. Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 55:09 ... you know, that there's, there's some element of coercion to a lot of what keeps the world spinning.

Joe Rogan 55:14 Right. And that's the, when you get into these insidious arguments about, uh, or conversations about conspiracies, like conspiracies to keep people impoverished, they're like, "Well, why would you want to keep people impoverished?" Well, who, who's gonna work in the coal mines? You're not gonna get wealthy, highly educated people to work in the coal mines. You need someone to work in the coal mines, so what do you do? Well, what you do is you don't, you don't help anybody get out of these situations, so you'll always have the ability to draw from these impoverished communities, those poor people that live in Appalachia or where- wherever their coal miners are coming from. Like, there's not a whole lot of ways out. Like, I have a friend who came from Kentucky, and he's like, the way he described it to me, he goes, "Man, you've never seen poverty like that." Like, people don't wanna concentrate on those people because it's not as glamorous as some other forms of poverty. He goes, "But those communities are so poor." Like-

Moxie Marlinspike 56:12 Yeah. Fort- 40 million Americans, right?

Joe Rogan 56:14 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 56:14 40 million Americans are living in poverty.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know if that conspiracy's accurate, but that's the one that people always wanna draw from, right? They always wanna...

Moxie Marlinspike 56:24 I mean, I don't think you need a conspiracy. You know, you just, you have-

Joe Rogan 56:27 You have poor people.

Moxie Marlinspike 56:28 ... structural forces, you know-

Joe Rogan 56:29 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 56:29 ... that, like, are-

Joe Rogan 56:29 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 56:30 ... doing what they need. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:31 Yeah, um, that's, that's why it's rare that a company comes along and has a business plan like Signal where they're like, "We're gonna be non-profit. We're gonna create something that we think is of extreme value to human beings, uh, just to, to civilization in general, the ability to communicate anonymously or, or at least privately." But this is, uh, it's a very rare thing that you guys have done, that we decided to do this and to do it in a non-profit way. Like, what, what was the decision that led up to that? And then was there any... How- how many people were involved?

Moxie Marlinspike 57:11 Uh, now, um, yeah. Okay, well, now there's, uh, you know, 20-something people. Uh, which, do you think that's a lot or a little?

Joe Rogan 57:23 Um, I think that's a little.

Moxie Marlinspike 57:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 57:27 Yeah, I think, you know, it's always interesting talking to people. Like, a lot of the times I'll, um, I'll meet somebody and they're like, "Oh, yeah, you're the person who did, like, Signal or something." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." They're like, "Okay, cool. What are you doing now?" You know. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm still working on Signal." You know, and they're like, "Oh, wh- what? Is there, like, another Signal-

Joe Rogan 57:43 "What did you do?"

Moxie Marlinspike 57:44 ... that you're gonna do? You're gonna do, like, Signal 2 or something?" You know.

Joe Rogan 57:46 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 57:46 Like, I think it's hard for people to understand that there's, that software's never finished, you know.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 57:50 That there's this, um... Which is something that I really envy about, like, the kind of creative work that someone like you does. You know, that, like, I envy artists, musicians, writers, poets, painters, um, you know, people who can create something and it be done. You know, that, like, you can record an album today and 20 years later you can listen to that album and-

Joe Rogan 58:11 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 58:11 ... it'll be just as good, you know. It's like, software is never finished. And if you stop, it'll just (laughs) like, float away like dandelion seeds.

Joe Rogan 58:20 What happens if you stop?

Moxie Marlinspike 58:22 Because software's not, um... It's very hard to explain this. It's not, um, it doesn't exist in isolation. It's a part of the ecosystem of, of like all software. And that ecosystem is moving and it's moving really fast, you know. There's a lot of money behind it, a lot of energy in, in it. And if you aren't moving with it, it will just, you know, stop working. Uh, and also it's like, you know, uh, a project like this is not just the software that ru- runs on your phone but the service of like, you know, moving the messages around on the internet, and that requires a little bit of care and attention. And if you're not doing that, then it will dissipate.

Joe Rogan 58:56 And if you're doing something non-profit the way you're doing it, how do you pay everybody? Like, how does it work?

Moxie Marlinspike 59:02 Yeah. Well, okay, so, you know, the history of this was, um... I think before the internet really took over our lives in the way that it has, there were the kind of, um, social spaces for people to experiment with different ideas outside of the context of their everyday lives. You know, like, um, art projects, um, uh, punk rendezvous, um, experimental, uh, gatherings, um, uh, the embers of art movements. You know, that these spaces existed and were things that I found myself in and a part of, and they were, like, important to me in my life.

Joe Rogan 59:41 You look like a dude who'd go to Burning Man.

Moxie Marlinspike 59:44 Uh, actua- I, I am not a dude that goes to Burning Man. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:48 (laughs) Maybe you're missing it.

Moxie Marlinspike 59:49 Maybe I am. I have, I have been once. I went in-

Joe Rogan 59:51 Yeah?

Moxie Marlinspike 59:52 ... 2000, I think. Yeah. Uh, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 59:55 Early adopter.

Moxie Marlinspike 59:56 I can, well, at, it's funny 'cause at the time that I went, people were like, "Oh, man. It's not like it used to be."

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Missed it. (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 1:00:01 What do you think? It's like... And now people are like, "Have you been?" I was like, "I went once in 2000." They're like, "Wow, wow, that's when it was like the real deal." You know, like, eh, I don't think so. Uh, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, there's like day one and then on day two they're like, "Ah, it's now like day one."

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:00:13 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Of course, of course.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:00:15 Like, and it just gets worse and worse. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. Those things, those spaces were important to me and, like, an important part of my life. And as more of our life started to be taken over by technology, um, you know, me and my friends felt like those spaces were missing online, you know. And so we wanted to demonstrate that it was possible to create spaces like that. And, um, there had been a history of people thinking about, um, cryptography in particular and, uh, (laughs) and which is kind of funny in hindsight, right? Uh, so in the, like, '80s... So the history of cryptography is actually not long, like, uh, at least in, outside of the military, you know. Uh, and, you know, it really in- starts in the '70s, um, and, uh, there were some really important things that happened then. And in the '80s there was this person who was just sort of this lone maniac who was, like, writing a bunch of papers about cryptography during a time when it wasn't, wasn't actually that relevant because there was no internet, the-... you know, the, the, the applications for these things were harder to imagine. Um, and then in the late '80s, there was, um, this, uh, guy who wrote a... who was a, a retired engineer who discovered the papers that this maniac, David Chaum, had been writing and was really fascinated-

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Was he doing this in isolation or was he a part of a project or anything?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:01:40 No, I think David Chaum was, um... I think he's an academic. I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually... I'm embarrassed that I don't know. But, uh, he, um, he did a lot of the, the notable work, um, on, uh, using the, the primitives that had, had already been developed. And, um, he had a lot of interesting ideas and there's this guy, uh, who was a retired engineer, his name was Tim May, uh, who was, uh, kind of a weird character, and he found these paper, papers by David Chaum, was really enchanted by, um, what they could represent for a future. And he wanted to write, like, a sci-fi novel about... that was sort of predicated on a world where cryptography existed and there was a, a future where the internet was developed. And so he wrote some notes about this novel, uh, and he, he titled the notes The Cryptoanarchy Manifesto. And, uh, he published the notes online and people got really into the notes. Um, and then, uh, he started a mailing list in the early '90s called The Cypherpunks Mailing List and all these people started, you know, joined the mailing list and they started communicating about, you know, what the future was gonna be like and how, you know, they needed to develop tr- cryptography to live their, you know, cryptoanarchy future. Uh, and, um, at the time, uh... it's strange to think about now, but cryptography was, uh, somewhat illegal. It was, it was regulated as a munition.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:02:57 Yeah. So if you wrote a b- a little bit of crypto code and you sent it to your friend in Canada, that was the same as, like, shipping Stinger missiles across the border to Canada.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:03:07 So yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 So did, did people actually go to jail for cryptography?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:03:10 Uh, there were, like, uh, some high profile legal cases. Um, nobody... I don't know of, uh, any situations where people were, like, tracked down as, like, munitions dealers or whatever, but it really, um, hampered what people were capable of doing. Uh, so people got really creative. There's some people who wrote some crypto, uh, software called Pretty Good Privacy, PGP, and they, uh, they printed it in a book, like a MIT press book, in a machine readable font. Uh, and then they're like, "This is speech." You know, "This is a book." You know, it's like, "I have my First Amendment right to, like, print this book and to distribute it." And then they, like, shipped the books to, like, Canada and other countries and stuff, and then people in those places scanned it back in, uh, to computers and they were able to make the case that they were, uh, legally allowed to do this because of, you know, their First Amendment rights. Uh, and-

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:03 ... um, people, uh, other people moved to Anguilla and started, like, writing code in Anguilla and, like, shipping it around the world. Uh, there were a lot of people who were fervently interested-

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Why Anguilla?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:13 Uh, 'cause it's close to the United States and, uh, there were no laws there about producing-

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Hmm.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:18 ... cryptography, so, uh, I think... I don't know, it's something people (inaudible)

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 They have, like, three cases of COVID there, ever.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:26 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 Yeah. It's a really interesting place.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:28 Yeah. I, I used to work down there. It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:30 Really? Uni- Okay. International Traffic and Arms Regulation. "It's a United States regulatory regime to restrict and control the export of defense and military-related technologies to safeguard US national security and further US foreign policy objectives."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:46 ITAR.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Yeah, they were closed. Anguilla was closed till, like, uh, November. They wouldn't let anybody in.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:04:53 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 And, uh, yeah, if you wanna go there, they have, like... I was reading they had all these crazy restrictions. You have to get COVID tested and you have to apply and, and, and then when you get there, they test you when you get there.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:04 Yeah. Hmm, keeping it real.

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 'Cause they've, uh... they've had no deaths.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:07 Keep it real. That's cool. Yeah, I like Anguilla. It's a, it's a interesting place.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Yeah, th- this is what I was reading. They're inviting companies to come move here. Like, "Come work here."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:15 Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:16 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 "Come, we'll test the shit outta you and you can't go anywhere."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 "But come here, it's beautiful."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:21 Yeah. It is beautiful. I used to work on boats down there.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 Yeah?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:25 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 What'd you do on boats?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:26 Uh, I was, like, really, um... I don't know. I, I, for a while, was, like, really into sailing and, uh, I had a commercial license. I was moving boats around and stuff, but-

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 My parents lived in a sailboat for a while.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:39 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Yeah. Yeah, they just-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:40 For real?

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 ... decided to just check out and, and, uh, this was, like... I wanna say, like, early 2000s, somewhere around then.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:49 Ah, nice.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 They just... lived on a sailboat for a few years till my mom got tired of it, just-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:52 Did they go around the world or...

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 Uh, they went... They were in the Bahamas.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:05:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 They were, uh... they were all around, like, that part of the world and they, they were in California for a little while, on their boat. You know, they just... they just decided, like, "Uh, let's just live on a boat for a while."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:09 Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I, I, I discovered sailing by accident where I was, like, um, working on a project with a friend in the early 2000s and we were looking on Craigslist for something unrelated and we saw a boat that was for sale for $4,000. And I thought a boat was, like, a million dollars or something.

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:25 I was just like, "What? You could... The sailboats are four thous- ... And this is just some listing, there's probably even cheaper boats," you know. Uh, and so we got really into it and we discovered that you can go to any Amer- uh, any, uh, marina in North America and get a boat for free. You know that, like, every marina has a lien sale dock on it where people have stopped paying their slip fees and the boats are just derelict and abandoned and they've, you know, put it on these docks and they rent 'em.

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:43 Yeah. They'll have an auction.

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 You can get a boat for free?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:45 Yeah. They have an auction. Uh, there's usually, like, a, a minimum bid of, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 50 bucks?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:50 ... 50 bucks or whatever, you know. And m- most times, it doesn't get bid on and they chop the boat up and, uh, throw it away.

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 Really?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:06:57 And if you show up-

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 So a functional boat?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:00 Well, functional is- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:02 Oh, that's the problem, right?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:03 You know, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 You gotta maintain the shit outta boats.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:05 Yeah. So, you know, if you put some work into it, though, you can get it going. And, uh, so we started doing that. We were like, you know, getting boats, fixing them up, sailing them as far as we could. And then, uh, eventually I got a commercial license and started sailing other people's boats, but-

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 Wow. All this on a whim of, how much does a boat cost?You can get a boat for four grand? Holy shit.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:25 Next thing you know, you're working on boats.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:28 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was ... It's a really, it's a whole world, you know? It's just like, you know, finding that link on Craigslist was like, you know, opening a door to another reality, right? Where it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:39 'Cause it's, it's pretty amazing, you know. Uh, you know, me and some friends used to sail around the Caribbean, and, um, you know, the, the feeling of like, you know, you pull up at anchor and then you sail like, you know, 500 miles-

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:53 ... to some other country or whatever, and you get there and you drop the anchor, and you're just like, "We ... " It was just the wind.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 Yeah.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:07:58 The wind that took, you know ... Like, there was no engine. There was no fuel. It was just the wind, you know? And you'd catch fish and you, you know, it's just like you're-

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 If you wanna go real old school, you gotta use one of them, what are those fucking sextants?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:09 Sextant, of course. That's what we did. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:09 Do you use one of those?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 No, you didn't.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Did you really?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:13 I was like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 I was like-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:13 ... into like, you know, no electronics. Like, it's just complicated, you know, they're expensive or whatever, so we had a taffrail log. You seen one of those things?

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 A what? No, what is that?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:21 It's like a little, uh, propeller on a string, uh, that you connect to a gauge, and as it turns, the gauge keeps track of how far you've traveled. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:08:31 What?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:32 Yeah, so it's like a, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 A propeller on a string?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:36 So, it's just a thing that turns a string at a constant rate-

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 Uh-huh.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:38 ... depending on how fast you're moving, so.

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Oh.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:40 Uh, so it can gauge how much distant- distance you've traveled.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 So, uh, are there, is the string marked?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:46 No, no, no, no. Uh, like it's just-

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 So-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:48 ... a constant length that's, it's always spinning and it's always turning the gauge, uh, so-

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 And then it reads a number, so it says-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:54 So, it's just like a dial-

Joe Rogan 1:08:55 ... how many miles?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:56 ... and a number of how many nautical miles you've traveled.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 Wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:58 And so then you're just like, "Okay."

Joe Rogan 1:08:59 Wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:08:59 " Well, we started here and then we headed, uh, you know, on this heading. And, you know, we did that and we traveled 10 miles, so we must be here." You know, and then, you know, once a day you can take a, a sight with your sextant, and then you can, you know, do some dead reckoning with a compass and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 Dude, you went old school.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:18 Yeah. I, I once had a job actually-

Joe Rogan 1:09:20 Who did you do this with?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:22 Just friends. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 Uh, you gotta have some fucking committed friends, 'cause like the friends had to be, you know, you gotta be all on the same page. 'Cause they could be like, "Hey, man, let's get a fucking GPS."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:32 "You guys are assholes."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 "I don't wanna die."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:35 Well, maybe, maybe-

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 "I'm not gonna get eaten by a shark. How much food do we have? People die out here, man."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:39 We-

Joe Rogan 1:09:39 "This is the ocean."

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:40 (laughs) We didn't really have any money, so it was like, you know, it wasn't like, uh, much of a decision. I mean, we, you know, it's like, just put things into perspective, like, you know, we took a trip to, uh, through the Caribbean once from Florida. The way that we got to Florida was like riding freight trains to the, you know, we like hopped trains to get there. You know, it's like this was like low, low budget-

Joe Rogan 1:09:57 Oh.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:09:57 ... uh, traveling, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 You guys were hobos.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:00 No, but, uh, we, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 That's a hobo move.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:02 Uh, it was low bagger for sure.

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:06 Uh, but like, yeah, I was at, I was also like, uh, just weirdly ideological about it, where like, um, I had a job once in the Caribbean that was like, um, I was almost like a camp counselor basically, where there was this camp that was like a sailing camp, but it was like 13 teenagers, mostly from North America, showed up in Saint Martin, and then got on a boat with me and, uh, th- another woman my age, and we were like the adults. And then it was just like, we sailed from Saint Martin to Trinidad over the course of six weeks with these like 13 kids on a 50-foot sailboat.

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 Who left their kids with you?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:38 That's what I wanna know, man. It was like ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 Was this you?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:41 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 What do you know?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:42 So, we made a, uh, me and my friends made a video called Hold Fast, uh, that was trying to demystify sailing, uh, to our-

Joe Rogan 1:10:49 Bro, you been rocking this wacky hair for a long time.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:51 Yeah, dude, I know. I need a haircut.

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:54 You know, pandemic, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 Wow.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:10:57 Uh (laughs) . Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 Whoa, you had tornadoes out there?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:02 Yeah, water storm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 And you caught fish?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 So, you lived off the fish that you caught basically?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:07 Yeah, fish, conch, seaweed.

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 Wow. Seaweed?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 And so when you prepare seaweed, what do you do? You boil it? You need to sharpen your fucking knife, son.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:16 I know, I did it.

Joe Rogan 1:11:17 That's ridiculous.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:18 I know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:18 What're you using, a pencil?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:19 This is, this is-

Joe Rogan 1:11:19 Trying to kill that poor fish?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:20 ... embarrassing. This is embarrassing.

Joe Rogan 1:11:22 (laughs)

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:22 This whole video's embarrassing, but, uh, so thank you for that joke.

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 'Cause you kinda didn't know what you were doing? And here's you with, uh, you're, what are you doing here? You're mapping out where you're at?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:32 This is dead reckoning, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:33 Dead reckoning.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:34 Yeah. That position was 50 miles off.

Joe Rogan 1:11:36 50 miles off?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:38 So, where you thought you were versus where you actually were-

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:41 ... was 50 miles difference?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 And you're going how many miles an hour?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:45 Very slow. If you're doing really well, you know, you're making five knots, five nautical miles an hour.

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 Five miles an hour?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:50 Jesus Christ. (laughs) So, you're walking. You're basically walking on the ocean.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:56 Yeah, yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:11:57 Not walking.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:58 ... it's slow going, but you never stop. That's the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:11:59 Right.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:11:59 You can sail all night, you can just keep going, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:01 You're, a light jog.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:12:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:03 You're jogging on the ocean. But you're sailing.

Moxie Marlinspike 1:12:04 Yeah, anyway, I was itiring with these kids, where like we had a, like a nice boat and I di- disabled all of the electronics, and I like disabled the electric, uh, anchor windlass, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 How long was this boat?

Moxie Marlinspike 1:12:13 I was like, had to pull this up by hand. It was-

Joe Rogan 1:12:14 How long was this boat?