Joe Rogan Experience #1573 - Matthew Yglesias

Narrator 0:02 (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Um, since we don't, we don't have, we don't record an intro for Spotify anymore, so-

Matthew Yglesias 0:18 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:19 ... tell me who you are and what you do.

Matthew Yglesias 0:21 I'm Matthew Yglesias. I'm the host of The, The Weeds podcast, the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm also the author of The Slow Boring Newsletter, and a book, One Billion Americans.

Joe Rogan 0:31 And that's what I wanna talk to you about. Pull the sucker up so it's, like, one fist away from your face.

Matthew Yglesias 0:35 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:35 There you go. Perfect.

Matthew Yglesias 0:36 All right, I'm closer.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Um, One Billion Americans.

Matthew Yglesias 0:38 It's a lot.

Joe Rogan 0:39 So explain, if you could, um, give us the CliffsNotes of what the concept of One Billion Americans is.

Matthew Yglesias 0:46 Okay. So the concept is that there should be a billion Americans. Um, I like to keep it simple. No, so, so here's the idea, right? So, uh, we got China. It's growing out there. There's a lot of concern, you know, internationally about America's role in the world. We've also got a lot of polarization in our politics, a lot of sort of gridlock, deadlock, um, kind of stagnation and, and infighting. And I, I'm a politics guy. I live in DC, cover Congress. I wanted to write a book that kind of elevates beyond that, thinks about America's role in the world and says the way we are gonna meet this challenge of rising international competition is the way we became such a great power historically, and that's by growing our population with more openness to immigrants, doing more to support parents and young families, and then everything that comes downstream from that, you know, where are people gonna live, how are we gonna get around, how are we gonna solve those problems.

Joe Rogan 1:40 Um, how much pushback have you gotten from this idea? 'Cause it seems like a lot of people think that overpopulation is a giant problem, and then when you say, "We should triple plus the amount of people in the United States if we want to compete with the rest of the world," I would imagine a lot of people are like, "What are you smoking, Matthew Yglesias?"

Matthew Yglesias 1:59 No, the, I mean, the book's really good, so everyone-

Joe Rogan 2:01 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 2:01 ... who reads it is just like, "Oh, you convinced me." And there's-

Joe Rogan 2:04 At least you're humble.

Matthew Yglesias 2:04 ... there's, there's no pushback at all. Um, no, uh, yes. Uh, there is concern about overpopulation. That's something that... You know, so there's people from the right. They don't like immigrants. They don't like immigration. Uh, they-

Joe Rogan 2:16 Why is that?

Matthew Yglesias 2:16 ... they see it through that lens.

Joe Rogan 2:17 Let's, let's start with that.

Matthew Yglesias 2:18 Well-

Joe Rogan 2:18 Because this is a country-

Matthew Yglesias 2:19 ... tell me.

Joe Rogan 2:20 ... of immigrants. It's a, it's a very strange thing to have a country that is entirely comprised of people who came from somewhere else other than Native Americans. Right? Entirely comprised. And yet, there's a giant population that doesn't like immigrants.

Matthew Yglesias 2:37 Yeah, I mean, look. Some of it's a question of taste. You know, people like different places. People like different kinds of things. I think the best parts of America are places that have a lot of people from different places. To me-

Joe Rogan 2:48 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 2:48 ... you know, whether that's, that's Austin, where we are, New York, where I'm from, it's like, it's cool. Like, that's America at its best. Some people don't like it. Uh, there's also the legality question though, right? Starting in the 1980s and 1990s, we built up a substantial group of people who were living here illegally. Uh, I'm for, you know, a-

Joe Rogan 3:07 It started in the '80s? Is that when it really started?

Matthew Yglesias 3:09 Yeah, I mean, that's when it really took off, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:11 Was it because the regulations were made, made more stringent?

Matthew Yglesias 3:14 Well, so what happened was in 1996, uh, they, they changed the law. They s- IRIRA is the acronym for it. And they made it a lot harder for people who had come here without papers to, quote unquote, "get legal." So even if you put roots down, even if you were married to an American citizen, there was no way to obtain legal status. They also made it harder to cross the border. So what used to be people would come over, they'd pick vegetables in California for a season, and then they'd just go back, right? They'd go back to Mexico, take their money with them, get a nice house. They made it harder to cross the border so people would stay. And people who stayed had no way to get a legal status here. So unauthorized population, it built up, it built up, it built up. There's a movement on one side to say, "Well, we should create a path to citizenship for those people." Most of them, they're living here peacefully. They're working hard. They're not doing anything. That, that's where I stand. But there's people who say, "Look, you know, they broke the rules. We, we've got to be harsh." So we've been arguing about that unauthorized immigration so viciously. And I think we've lost sight of the fact that, you know, we can just create legal pathways for people to come. You know, some people will say, "Well, my, my grandparents, my parents," whoever, "they, they came the right way. They, they didn't wanna be illegal."

Joe Rogan 4:25 Yeah, but it was easy then.

Matthew Yglesias 4:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 4:27 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 4:27 And it, and it's, uh, totally true. So my great-grandparents, they came to this country at a time when there was no restriction on people-

Joe Rogan 4:33 Yeah, my grandparents as well. They just came over from Italy, and it was-

Matthew Yglesias 4:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:36 ... not that hard.

Matthew Yglesias 4:37 So good for them, right?

Joe Rogan 4:38 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 4:38 And so, like, yes, like, we should have a legal process for people to come. We can have rules, you know, try to make sure you're... Like say, y- you should be working age, right? You should come here, get a job, pay taxes. You can't just, like, come across and collect Social Security.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah, but-

Matthew Yglesias 4:52 Fair enough. But-

Joe Rogan 4:53 ... obviously you're okay with children coming across as well.

Matthew Yglesias 4:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:56 Or part- like, whether they're adopted once they get here, or whether they come here with their parents, or, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 5:02 I mean, we should make it possible, right? You, you-

Joe Rogan 5:04 Yes, we should make it possible. That's a good, a great way of putting it.

Matthew Yglesias 5:06 And that's how you cannot have people breaking the rules.

Joe Rogan 5:10 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 5:10 That's, to me. But, you know, a lot of people on the right don't see it that way. Now, on the left, there's some folks, you know, people who are concerned about the environment.

Joe Rogan 5:17 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 5:18 I mean, I'm, I'm concerned too. I don't, I don't wanna breathe polluted air. I don't want, like, cities underwater. Uh, but there's a strain of sort of eco-apocalyptic thinking-

Joe Rogan 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 5:27 ... you know, where people say, "Oh," like, "we can't handle it." Like, "Only degrowth is gonna-"

Joe Rogan 5:32 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 5:32 ... "is gonna save us." And I, I just don't think that's right. You know, I am bullish on technology, right? We've got more and more clean energy sources. We've got better and better electric cars. There's more stuff we can do with electrification. We, we need to take those steps, but we can have a prosperous, sustainable society that has plenty of people in it, that has high living standards, uh, things like that. So w- we don't need to worry about that. A lot of Americans also just overestimate how many people are here. So a billion sounds like a lot. It's, it's about triple our current population.But that would give us the population density of France. It would give us about half the density of Germany, uh, way less than half the density of the United Kingdom. And you know, if you've ever been to the UK, it's like, it's a nice country.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 6:21 They got London, big city.

Joe Rogan 6:23 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 6:23 They got countryside, they got rolling hills, they got sheep. You go up to Scotland and like, there's fucking nobody there. Um, so like, we could have all kinds of places with a billion Americans: countryside, suburbs, cities, all kinds of stuff.

Joe Rogan 6:37 What's the benefit of having all those people though?

Matthew Yglesias 6:40 Uh, so two benefits, right? So one, I think internationally, you know, the United States has been like the number one country for 100 years, give or take, right? Uh, we're the, the, the biggest dog out there, you know, no... everybody knows better than to mess with us. And we're losing that status, you know? We're losing that status economically to China. They're doing more stuff like, you know, telling NBA coaches like what they can tweet, what they can't tweet. They're censoring Hollywood movies because they've got the number one market out there. You can get into scarier stuff eventually, you know, South China Sea, naval battles. I'm not like a war guy, but y- you don't want that. I think, I think we wanna stay number one and growth has been important to that historically, right? Like, why is the United States a big deal country and Canada is like, you know, like our cute little brother? And it's because a lot of people live here. You know, Canada's nice, but there's no people, no real strength there. Second, I think it'll make us a more prosperous country. Uh, what we do as modern day Americans is we do stuff for each other, right? Whether that's we make show, we write books, uh, we, we teach in schools, we run restaurants. We're doing services to each other and you get more prosperity when you have more people and more ability to sort of have those interactions.

Joe Rogan 7:57 When you're talking about China and the NBA and Hollywood movies, a lot of people think of those things, those... the interactions that Hollywood has, that... and the NBA has with China as being insidious.

Matthew Yglesias 8:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:10 They don't, they don't think it's a good thing at all that China has that kind of an influence and they also think it's embarrassing. Like, a lot of people think that it's embarrassing for the NBA to... when the negative tweets, uh, when they're in support of Hong Kong and then, uh, all of a sudden there was some pushback and the NBA was removed from viewership-

Matthew Yglesias 8:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:30 ... in China, and there was, uh, a lot of sponsorships being pulled and it became a giant issue. And then all of a sudden you saw the NBA kind of backtrack and kind of kowtow and a lot of people found that to be pretty disgusting. We don't want the United States to ever be a country that's doing that to China, right? If China has a bunch of, I don't know what they're really into over there, ping pong players?

Matthew Yglesias 8:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:51 Like, what's their, what's their primary sport?

Matthew Yglesias 8:53 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 8:54 They have a lot of basketball players over there.

Matthew Yglesias 8:54 Basketball. They like basketball.

Joe Rogan 8:56 So imagine if Chinese basketball becomes super popular in the United States and then, uh, the Chinese basketball players in the United States start talking shit about how Apple uses slave labor.

Matthew Yglesias 9:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:06 And, uh, we go, "Hey, hey watch your fucking mouth, bro. We won't, we won't pay for your Chinese basketball anymore." And then all of a sudden China backs off. Like, we would think of that as being pretty gross by the United States of ignoring some human rights violations or, or trying to whitewash them and trying to economically attack another country. So like, the saying that it's a positive that China has all these people and using as an example the fact they strong-arm Hollywood and they strong-arm the NBA, a lot of people think that's moving in the wrong direction, me included. Like, I don't want that.

Matthew Yglesias 9:43 Well, no, I, I don't think it's positive. I'm saying-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 9:45 ... we need to be in a position to level the playing field.

Joe Rogan 9:48 But is that-

Narrator 9:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:48 ... leveling the playing field or will we just... Look, we're... Corporations have a, a giant problem with infinite growth, right?

Matthew Yglesias 9:55 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:56 This is a thing that seems completely totally preposterous, but it's the norm and the standard in the business world. You, you want your growth to increase every year no matter what and God knows where that goes.

Matthew Yglesias 10:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:09 I'm not a mathematician or an economist, but if you f- you f- extrapolate and keep going with that, it leads to preposterous outcomes, right?

Matthew Yglesias 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:17 That's what people would be worried about tenfold if there's a billion people here. They'd be like, "Oh my God, it would be even more ruthless and more cutthroat and, and more like, maybe more competitive with the rest of the world?" But in what way?

Matthew Yglesias 10:30 Well, so here, let- let's talk about the China thing.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Okay.

Matthew Yglesias 10:32 Right? So the NBA is under China's thumb.

Joe Rogan 10:36 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 10:36 Because they need access to that market.

Joe Rogan 10:38 Do they though?

Matthew Yglesias 10:39 Hollywood-

Joe Rogan 10:39 Do they though?

Matthew Yglesias 10:40 Well, they think they do, right?

Joe Rogan 10:41 Aren't they rich as fuck?

Matthew Yglesias 10:42 (laughs) So we could say, right, maybe we need to have a rule that says like, well, you know, you, you can't let the Chinese censor your shit, right?

Joe Rogan 10:49 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 10:50 But the s- the relative size of the markets is going to matter, right? So we're, we're on Spotify here, right? So that's a Swedish, Swedish company I think.

Joe Rogan 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 11:00 Um, so you know they-

Joe Rogan 11:01 They make great meatballs I hear.

Matthew Yglesias 11:02 Absolutely. It's a lovely country, right?

Joe Rogan 11:04 (laughs) A small country.

Matthew Yglesias 11:04 But so, so Sweden's a little country, right?

Joe Rogan 11:06 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 11:07 All their companies, you know, you're talking Volvo, Scania-

Joe Rogan 11:10 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 11:11 ... Spotify, they're dependent on a global marketplace. They need access.

Joe Rogan 11:14 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 11:15 If China is the biggest market in the world, ultimately they're gonna find themselves playing by China's rules. If America stays the biggest market in the world, then we can play by our rules. And not that we should use the, the way China does, right? We shouldn't say like, "No, nobody can say bad stuff about America." America, we've got a great tradition of free speech here, uh, despite some tensions. Uh, it's a world difference (laughs) from China and we carry so many other countries, smaller countries from Europe, Canada, Australia, on our backs in that regard as creating a sort of cornerstone of openness as a leading market in the world. That's how it's been for so long that people don't even think about it. But if we go into a world where China's the number one economy, where that's the number one market, where that's what every company cares most about, China's rules, then we're gonna be in trouble. We're gonna be in trouble here, the Swedes are gonna be in trouble, and I don't think that's a world we should look forward to.

Joe Rogan 12:12 Why do you think that increasing the population threefold is the way or th- by...... three times. Is that the only way that we can be competitive in the world? Is that the only way? Or what go- w- when you came to that conclusion, by ramping it up to a billion people, like, what, what led you to that? And did you know you were being provo- provocative? Was that part of what you were doing? Like, "This is gonna fucking piss people off a little bit."

Matthew Yglesias 12:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:37 "Hey."

Matthew Yglesias 12:37 I, I like to provoke. I think, I think you may be familiar with the- that as a, as an approach. Um-

Joe Rogan 12:43 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 12:43 Yeah, I mean, look-

Joe Rogan 12:44 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 12:44 ... I, I wanted to grab people's attention, you know? I didn't want to be boring. I don't like being boring.

Joe Rogan 12:48 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 12:49 Um, it's a nice round number, obviously.

Joe Rogan 12:51 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 12:51 Also, science delivered it. Uh, it was, when I-

Joe Rogan 12:54 Science delivered it? What science?

Matthew Yglesias 12:55 When I realized that a billion is triple ... It's also, it, it sets, if, if the US population were to grow as fast as Canada's is growing for the next 80 years, then we hit a billion at the end of the century. That's the official math.

Joe Rogan 13:11 That's really-

Matthew Yglesias 13:12 Yeah. The reality is-

Joe Rogan 13:13 Canada's growing that quickly?

Matthew Yglesias 13:14 They're fast.

Joe Rogan 13:15 Wow.

Matthew Yglesias 13:16 There's a lot of people coming in.

Joe Rogan 13:17 So they're really nice. How do we do that? How-

Matthew Yglesias 13:18 Be s- be so polite?

Joe Rogan 13:19 How to be as nice as them?

Matthew Yglesias 13:20 Yeah, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 13:21 Isn't that ... Is that a goal we should work towards?

Matthew Yglesias 13:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:23 Seriously. Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 13:23 Being as nice as Canadians? Yeah, I don't know. So, you know, I'm from, um, I'm from New York. We're a little brusque there. Uh-

Joe Rogan 13:30 But you're nice.

Matthew Yglesias 13:31 Uh, kind of.

Joe Rogan 13:32 You seem like a nice guy so far.

Matthew Yglesias 13:33 Well, 'cause we're here in the South now.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Oh, so you've tightened, tightened it up?

Matthew Yglesias 13:36 So we gotta be nice. Uh, we gotta, we gotta ask-

Joe Rogan 13:39 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 13:39 We gotta ask Southerners how to be more polite like Canadians.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Well, one of the things that I think, and one of the things that I've said about, uh, Austin in particular is that I love the fact that there's friendly people, and I think one of the reasons why they're friendly is there's not that many of 'em.

Matthew Yglesias 13:54 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:55 They value people more. I think people get devalued when you get high population densities. I'm not saying that it has to be like Los Angeles in order to reach three billion, or a billion people in this country, rather.

Matthew Yglesias 14:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:07 I don't think it does, right? It's not like you're trying to turn the whole country into Los Angeles.

Matthew Yglesias 14:10 No.

Joe Rogan 14:10 But there's a problem with Los Angeles, and I think one of the problems with Los Angeles is there's an insane amount of people jammed into one area.

Matthew Yglesias 14:18 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:18 And when you're on the highway, like if you drive and you have to go to Orange County and you're on the 405-

Matthew Yglesias 14:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:23 ... you just want Godzilla to come out of the ocean and just start eating cars. You're like, "This is fucking ridiculous."

Matthew Yglesias 14:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:29 There's so many people. And it never ends. It's like every time you wanna go ... If you wanna go to Orange County, so if you wanna go to ... You wanna go to Disneyland or something like that-

Matthew Yglesias 14:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:36 ... and take your family, you gotta leave hours earlier. Hours earlier than you think you need to. You wanna be there by 5:00 PM? Oh, Christ. You gotta leave at like 2:00. You gotta leave maybe at 1:30 if you wanna be safe, leave at 1:30. And you'll be stuck in fucking insane traffic and never-ending road construction, and it never ends. And a lot of people get ... They get real testy when there's that many people. And this has been recreated in rat population density studies. I'm sure you've probably gotten into some of this when you started looking at populations-

Matthew Yglesias 15:04 Well, the rats don't really drive though.

Joe Rogan 15:06 They don't. But they- it does, when, when they have these rat population density studies, it does mimic what happens in big cities in terms of violence, in terms of mental illness. Like, when you have a certain amount of rats in a large containment ... You, you know about all this, right?

Matthew Yglesias 15:20 Yeah, I, I got it, rats, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:22 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 15:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:23 But if you ever-

Matthew Yglesias 15:24 I have, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:25 R- read or r- read, read it rather?

Matthew Yglesias 15:27 I have.

Joe Rogan 15:28 Any of the stuff? Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 15:28 So, okay, so let, let, let's, let's distinguish a couple things, right?

Joe Rogan 15:31 Okay.

Matthew Yglesias 15:31 So, I'm not so sure about the friendliness, right? 'Cause you get into like ... I don't wanna cast aspersions but you ever been to, like, New Hampshire?

Joe Rogan 15:39 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 15:39 Like small towns up there? People there, they're, they're kinda assholes.

Joe Rogan 15:42 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 15:42 Yeah. "We kinda keep to ourselves up here."

Joe Rogan 15:44 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 15:45 Yeah, so pe- people are friendly here but, you know, there's, there's some small town weirdos, uh, up in New England.

Joe Rogan 15:50 I have a theory about that as well.

Matthew Yglesias 15:51 Um, Los Angeles, now the traffic, right on. You know, I'm ... Every time I go to Southern California I think, "Oh man, this weather's nice. People here must be happy all the time." And then I try to meet up with somebody and I get on the road- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:05 Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 16:06 ... it's a fucking nightmare.

Joe Rogan 16:06 It's a fucking nightmare.

Matthew Yglesias 16:07 Um, so, you know, that's gonna make people mad. Now the rats, right? So, what they're studying there, I think, is crowding.

Joe Rogan 16:14 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 16:15 You know?

Joe Rogan 16:15 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 16:15 Which is not exactly the same as density. Because we, you know, like, we build buildings, right?

Joe Rogan 16:22 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 16:22 So, people in New York have small houses by American standards, but big houses by European standards or Japanese standards, right? We're still taking up space 'cause we're, we're sort of building structures. Uh, so I think we have to look at what we're doing with our housing laws, with our land use laws. Uh, one of the reasons Texas has been such a center of growth, so many people are coming here, is that the Texas legal framework actually lets you come here, right? You wanna throw up some houses in the Austin area, Houston, Dallas? You can do it. So you can get affordable space, and more and more people are coming in. And it's a, it's an asset for the state, right?

Joe Rogan 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 17:03 Like, people like you all, all kinds of folks come in here. Uh, the governor brags about it all the time. I think Hewlett-Packard is, uh, coming to Houston or something. And it's really good. It's a big, it's a big kind of success story. And in California, they got terrible, terrible problem where a lot of people wanna go there, 'cause it's nice, California's nice, right? But they can't find a place to live. They can't get space and they can't sort out their transportation infrastructure. Los Angeles poured all this money into building out the LA metro but then they didn't align their zoning, you know? So those people don't live near the stations.

Joe Rogan 17:38 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 17:38 So nobody rides the thing.

Joe Rogan 17:40 Well, it's also there's a culture of dr- driving your own vehicle that's been firmly established in Los Angeles.

Matthew Yglesias 17:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:46 And it's very difficult for, to get people to deviate from their habits.

Matthew Yglesias 17:48 Yeah. But also you can't ... I mean, you can't take a train if it doesn't go where you're going.

Joe Rogan 17:52 Right, for sure.

Matthew Yglesias 17:52 If you don't live by it, right?

Joe Rogan 17:53 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 17:53 So, you know, my cousin, she was living, she, she was taking the metro to work for a while. And, you know, good for her but it was like very unusual out there. Says like, yeah-

Joe Rogan 18:00 I'm from ... I live in DC now. A lot of people ride the metro there, right? And, you know, it's people from all over, people used to cars. But when you have a well-designed system where people live near the stations, where the jobs are near, where they come together, you know, people do it. It's convenient, you can, you know, read a book, uh- Right.

Matthew Yglesias 18:15 ... something like that. Well, w- we don't, we don't want to encourage people to read on their commute so you stick, stick to the podcast. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:20 Well, listen, if you can ... But whatever you want, I mean, you, you can make a great argument for it being far more relaxing, all you have to do is sit down, you don't have to think about traffic.

Matthew Yglesias 18:29 Right, you zone out.

Joe Rogan 18:30 You just, you zone out and you can read a book like you said, you can read the paper, and want to kill yourself you could, um ... (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 18:35 Watch on your phone, you know, whatever it is you gotta stay ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:37 (laughs) Yeah, there's plenty of things you can do and it, it can be rela- ... I have friends that, uh, live in Westchester and they, uh, they, they take public transportation-

Matthew Yglesias 18:44 Take the metro north down, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:45 Yeah. And-... it's great. I've d- I used to do it when I lived in New Rochelle. Did it all the time. Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 18:50 New Rochelle?

Joe Rogan 18:50 Yeah, I used to live in New Rochelle.

Matthew Yglesias 18:51 Oh, there you go.

Joe Rogan 18:52 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 18:52 Nice place. So, you know, so I, I think that there's ways to create those kind of like, you know, low-key virtues-

Joe Rogan 18:58 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 18:58 ... people having nice-sized houses, people having nice commutes, while also having growth, right-

Joe Rogan 19:03 But-

Matthew Yglesias 19:03 ... and having some sustainability. But, uh, uh, the other thing is that, like, we as a country need to get along with each other-

Joe Rogan 19:13 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 19:14 ... more than we have been doing lately.

Joe Rogan 19:16 For sure.

Matthew Yglesias 19:16 And I do think that focusing on what brings us together, versus some of the other governments out there, and on the possibilities of growth, like actually helps do that. Like, I'm a, I'm a liberal person, a left of center person. Um-

Joe Rogan 19:33 Me as well.

Matthew Yglesias 19:33 But I get pushback from people, you know, quote, unquote, "on my side," just about the idea of patriotism in the book, the idea of national greatness, the idea that America should want to be number one.

Joe Rogan 19:46 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 19:47 But I think that's something that's important to a lot of people, moderate people, conservative people.

Joe Rogan 19:52 I don't think it's a bad thing.

Matthew Yglesias 19:53 It's not a bad thing.

Joe Rogan 19:54 And I don't, and I don't think it has to be xenophobic either.

Matthew Yglesias 19:56 Well, and I think it's part of inclusiveness, right? Like, what holds this country together, people with different religions, people of different ethnic backgrounds, people with different ideas, is loyalty to, you know, certain concepts, right?

Joe Rogan 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 20:12 Like high-level political concepts. And it's not bad to be a little corny and, you know, wave the flag a little bit, if that's how, like, we can all be Americans together.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 20:23 And to me, that's, that's important, you know? And I was surprised, doing some of the virtual touring on this, at how much, uh, conservative people were like, "Wow, I can't believe you wrote this book." And how much some people on the left were just skeptical of, not like the specific ideas, but of the general concept of like, wanting America to be awesome.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Of n- a positive feeling about nationalism.

Matthew Yglesias 20:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:52 Yeah, nationalism, when you say even the word t- Something's happened over the last decade, where you say the word nationalism, and somehow it gets e- like, it gets equated, at least peripherally or in the neighborhood of white nationalism.

Matthew Yglesias 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:07 It's like, it's one of those weird words. You know, like, if you say, uh, you know, "I'm a Texas chauvinist."

Matthew Yglesias 21:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:16 Like, "What do you mean?"

Matthew Yglesias 21:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:17 "Do you hate women?" Like, "No, no, no, no, I just think Texas is the best."

Matthew Yglesias 21:20 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 21:21 Like, people get mad at you because it's too close to male chauvinist. Like, male chauvinist-

Matthew Yglesias 21:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:24 ... is a common phrase. If you say you're a patriot, people go, "Oh, great, you're stockpiling food and guns."

Matthew Yglesias 21:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:31 "And you're ready to take over, and you only like white people." Right? Like that's-

Matthew Yglesias 21:34 No, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:35 ... is a weird thing.

Matthew Yglesias 21:35 ... and it should be the opposite, right?

Joe Rogan 21:36 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 21:37 That if you think about, you know, the history of w- white nationalism in America, right, it's an anti-American-

Joe Rogan 21:45 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 21:45 ... movement.

Joe Rogan 21:46 100%.

Matthew Yglesias 21:46 This is a, the, the, Abraham Lincoln is an American-

Joe Rogan 21:50 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 21:50 ... nationalist, right? And, you know, and civil rights of Martin Luther King is appealing to the values of the Declaration of Independence.

Joe Rogan 21:56 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 21:56 This is a country, E pluribus unum, o- obviously, obviously America, like, bad things have happened, we have not lived up to those ideals, but those are the ideals of America.

Joe Rogan 22:08 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 22:08 What it is to be an American nationalist is to believe in that kind of human equality-

Joe Rogan 22:14 And not abandon it.

Matthew Yglesias 22:15 ... and universal rights.

Joe Rogan 22:16 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 22:17 And it's antithetical to the sort of racist and exclusionary visions that people have. But it's important to hold to that, right? To that notion of an inclusive nation that has a national identity, I think rather than sort of surrender the idea to the most right-wing people.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yeah, I think the idea of America should be like the greatest house party ever.

Matthew Yglesias 22:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:42 Like, everybody can come over. That's, that's what it should be. It should-

Matthew Yglesias 22:45 Yeah!

Joe Rogan 22:46 White nationalism is just fucking stupid. I mean, you're just fools. Like, the idea that only melanin, that's what counts, and only European heritage, that's what counts. Everything else, like, it's nonsense. It's just, it's one of the dumbest ideas ever. And then, i- it's also, it's a f- it's a scared person's version of America.

Matthew Yglesias 23:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:07 And the problem with the concept of nationalism being equated to white nationalism, like, you, you're giving that word up-

Matthew Yglesias 23:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:16 ... for c- to cowards. Like, be- white nationalists, they're, they're, you're a coward. You're afraid of, what are you afraid of? You afraid of brown people, Black people, yellow people? You only like white people. "I only like people who look similar to me." That's one of the dumbest ideas of all time. And the fact that that idea is still, it's so prevalent that you have to argue against it, that it's, it's one of those things, like, you know it's really ... Until Charlottesville happened-

Matthew Yglesias 23:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:41 ... when you see those guys walking with their tiki torches going, "They will not replace us," like, I was like, "That's never gonna happen again." If you, if, if that hadn't happened, I would have said there's n- no way, after the civil rights movement, after all we've been through, particularly today with the internet and the way people can exchange ideas, there is no fucking chance you're gonna have a bunch of assholes that only think that America is supposed to be about white people, and they're walking down the street with Home Depot torches.

Matthew Yglesias 24:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:06 It's like one of the dumbest things I've ever seen in my life.

Matthew Yglesias 24:08 Well, and you know, the whole-

Joe Rogan 24:09 So-

Matthew Yglesias 24:09 ... the whole replace us thing, right?

Joe Rogan 24:11 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 24:11 Like, it's so insecure.

Joe Rogan 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 24:13 You know, 'cause you go to like, you go to France, right?

Joe Rogan 24:16 Exactly.

Matthew Yglesias 24:16 And they're paranoid that our, like, McDonald's and our fucking movies are gonna take over-

Joe Rogan 24:23 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 24:23 ... and like replace their culture. But like, nobody is replacing us.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 24:27 Like it's, our, American culture is awesome.

Joe Rogan 24:31 And it is, but it's also-

Matthew Yglesias 24:31 And like, it dominates everywhere. But they-

Joe Rogan 24:34 But, "They will not replace us." Uh, it's, well, they will if you suck.

Matthew Yglesias 24:40 (laughs) Yeah, well, but-

Joe Rogan 24:40 Like are you saying you should be allowed to suck and be white?

Matthew Yglesias 24:42 We're gonna, we're gonna replace those guys. Uh-

Joe Rogan 24:44 Yeah, like-

Matthew Yglesias 24:45 But you know, but it's like, nobody-

Joe Rogan 24:46 ... that's really the irony, right?

Matthew Yglesias 24:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:48 Like if you think like that, bitch, you're gonna get replaced.

Matthew Yglesias 24:51 But, you know, but, uh, people who come here, right? Uh, people come from Latin America, people come from Africa, historically, people come from Europe. Now more and more people come from Asia. They don't replace anybody-

Joe Rogan 25:02 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 25:03 ... when they come in, right?

Joe Rogan 25:04 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 25:04 It's an additive thing.

Joe Rogan 25:06 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 25:06 You know, there's like cool stuff. I went, um, to ... In, in the suburbs of DC there's a lot of Vietnamese people, a lot of Vietnamese restaurants out there. The last time I went out to get a banh mi place, there was a, um, a Cajun, uh, Viet-Cajun crawfish broil thing, which comes from Houston. Because Vietnamese people came there, Louisiana people came to Houston.

Joe Rogan 25:30 Oh.

Matthew Yglesias 25:30 They got this fusion cuisine. Now they exported it to other Vietnamese enclaves around America.

Joe Rogan 25:35 God dammit-

Matthew Yglesias 25:36 And someday-

Joe Rogan 25:36 ... Matthew, you made me hungry. That sounds fucking great.

Matthew Yglesias 25:38 Someday someone's gonna open one of those places-

Joe Rogan 25:40 Hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 25:41 ... in Ho Chi Minh City. You know?

Joe Rogan 25:43 Right, right.

Matthew Yglesias 25:43 Like, it's gonna, it's gonna come back out. Like-

Joe Rogan 25:45 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 25:45 ... there's, uh, I mean, uh, they, I, I went to, uh, Shanghai and I met somebody there whose idea was they were starting a business that had fortune cookies. Uh, 'cause that's, that shit's American.

Joe Rogan 25:55 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 25:55 You know? But it's cool.

Joe Rogan 25:57 So fortune cookies came from America? They added it to American Chinese food?

Matthew Yglesias 26:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:01 No kidding. Well, that makes sense.

Matthew Yglesias 26:03 It's, uh, uh, a friend of mine, Jenny Eight Lees, she wrote a book, uh, called Fortune Cookie Chronicles.

Joe Rogan 26:07 You wanna talk about a-

Matthew Yglesias 26:08 It's about, it's about Chinese food. It's really the only ... I wish I could write a book about Chinese food. Uh, but it's a fascinating subject. Fortune cookies, 100% American.

Joe Rogan 26:17 It seems like an American thing. But you wanna talk about an industry that clearly has had no growth. The fortune cookie industry is stagnated.

Matthew Yglesias 26:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:26 The English is so bad, still. The fortunes aren't even fortunes. Like my fucking 10-year-old read a fortune cookie the other day. She goes, "How is this a fortune?"

Matthew Yglesias 26:34 Well, if you made the English good, people would realize it's not Chinese.

Joe Rogan 26:38 Hmm. Oh.

Matthew Yglesias 26:39 You gotta-

Joe Rogan 26:39 So it's on purpose?

Matthew Yglesias 26:40 You gotta fake it. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 26:42 Maybe you're right.

Matthew Yglesias 26:43 I'm just bullshitting.

Joe Rogan 26:43 You might ... No.

Matthew Yglesias 26:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:45 I think I agree with you. You might have a point. That might really be why they made it bad.

Matthew Yglesias 26:49 I think it's why. I mean, you could hire somebody to write a fortune in English. That's not hard.

Joe Rogan 26:55 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 26:55 I'll do it.

Joe Rogan 26:56 But it's also, they're not fucking fortunes, man.

Matthew Yglesias 26:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:59 And like a lot of times they're like, you know, "A stitch in time saves nine." What the fuck? Like, "I got robbed."

Matthew Yglesias 27:05 But they got lottery numbers though.

Joe Rogan 27:06 Oh, they do, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 27:06 You, you play those lotto numbers and you get rich. That's my-

Joe Rogan 27:09 (sighs)

Matthew Yglesias 27:09 ... that's my tip to you out there. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:11 God, it's so dumb. And it's, uh, it's also not a delicious cookie.

Matthew Yglesias 27:15 Yes.

Joe Rogan 27:15 I'm gonna say it.

Matthew Yglesias 27:16 Okay.

Joe Rogan 27:16 If fortune cookies were for sale and they didn't have a fortune inside of them, they would never survive.

Matthew Yglesias 27:21 (sighs) Yes.

Joe Rogan 27:21 Right?

Matthew Yglesias 27:22 That's true.

Joe Rogan 27:22 It's like Chick-fil-A's everywhere.

Matthew Yglesias 27:24 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:24 You know what you don't see? Turkey filet.

Matthew Yglesias 27:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:27 Turkey can't survive without Thanksgiving. If it wasn't for Thanksgiving, the turkey industry would be fucked. They rely on one day a year.

Matthew Yglesias 27:35 Well, but also sandwiches. People get, like, a turkey sandwich at the deli.

Joe Rogan 27:38 Boring people.

Matthew Yglesias 27:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Boring people that are afraid-

Matthew Yglesias 27:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:42 ... of l- like salami.

Matthew Yglesias 27:43 You ever been ... So I went ... Years ago I went to, uh, I was in southern Mexico, in Oaxaca, and I went to a restaurant there, and there was just turkey on the menu.

Joe Rogan 27:51 Just turkey?

Matthew Yglesias 27:51 And it ... Well, no, no, I mean it's not only turkey.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Oh.

Matthew Yglesias 27:54 But, but there was turkey dish on the menu, right? And it threw me for fucking loop because who eats turkey?

Joe Rogan 27:59 Right. Outside-

Matthew Yglesias 28:00 Outside of Thanksgiving.

Joe Rogan 28:01 ... of Thanksgiving.

Matthew Yglesias 28:01 Right? But apparently in Mexico and Central America, it's like a thing.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 28:05 That's where turkeys are from. Uh, so turkey with, uh, mole poblano and, uh-

Joe Rogan 28:10 Oh, okay.

Matthew Yglesias 28:10 It's pretty good. But-

Joe Rogan 28:11 Oh, that does sound good.

Matthew Yglesias 28:12 But it goes to show, it's a kind of flavorless meat.

Joe Rogan 28:15 Right. But they use-

Matthew Yglesias 28:16 You get, you get that-

Joe Rogan 28:16 ... the strong Mexican spices.

Matthew Yglesias 28:17 Yeah, you get, you get that big sauce on it.

Joe Rogan 28:20 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 28:20 And that's what makes it work. So sometime next year maybe I'll get my, get my mole Thanksgiving going.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Well, what I do is with leftovers, I take leftover Thanksgiving turkey and I'll just take a plate and dunk some habanero sauce all over the plate-

Matthew Yglesias 28:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:33 ... and then dip the pieces of turkey in that habanero sauce and woo!

Matthew Yglesias 28:36 There you go.

Joe Rogan 28:37 Now you gotta, now you got a party.

Matthew Yglesias 28:38 It's all happening.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 28:39 Um-

Joe Rogan 28:39 But that ... With mole sauce, that sounds outstand- that sounds good. Now I'm, now I'm, I'm seeing the flavors come together.

Matthew Yglesias 28:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:46 I made a turkey this year and I brined it for the first time.

Matthew Yglesias 28:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:49 I've never brined a turkey.

Matthew Yglesias 28:50 That's what the experts say.

Joe Rogan 28:51 Oh, it was sensational.

Matthew Yglesias 28:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:53 It was so good. Turkey's a thing though that's really best served right after you get it out of the oven. Like it's really best served, uh, like, while it's still really hot. You know, but while it was hot, it was so juicy. It was the juiciest turkey I've ... I, I cooked it on a Traeger Grill, which is like a pellet grill.

Matthew Yglesias 29:09 (laughs) I was gonna say, I was gonna say, my friend's got a smoker. It makes-

Joe Rogan 29:12 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 29:12 ... it makes smoked turkeys.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 29:14 Those are good.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Oh.

Matthew Yglesias 29:14 They're juicy, they're fucking great.

Joe Rogan 29:16 It was so good.

Matthew Yglesias 29:17 And then you get some turkey out of your oven-

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yeah, it's kinda dry.

Matthew Yglesias 29:20 ... and it sucks.

Joe Rogan 29:20 It's a different kind of heat. And it's also, it's like there's something about cooking with that indirect heat from the smoke.

Matthew Yglesias 29:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:26 Like, it's not like a, like cooking over a regular grill, you know, because the, the smoke is really doing all the cooking for you. It's almost like a, it ... And they're, they s- they're, they seal so good that it's like you're not losing moisture and you've got this amazing retention of heat and like so the temperature stays at a good ... But having the, the turkey brined first, man that made such a big difference. It was so juicy and deli- ... It made me think, like, okay, so hey assholes, if you just do this with all turkeys, then people would be ordering turkey all over the place.

Matthew Yglesias 29:57 Just brine it.

Joe Rogan 29:57 And they would say how great this turkey is.

Matthew Yglesias 29:59 Just brine it.

Joe Rogan 29:59 But if you, if you're a restaurant and you have turkey on the menu and you have turkey right next to like a, a T-bone steak, people are gonna be like, "Mm."

Matthew Yglesias 30:05 Just give me a steak every time.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Yeah, I'm not going with the turkey. Get the fuck out of here.

Matthew Yglesias 30:07 I agree. I'm not, I'm not a turkey guy.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah, it's-

Matthew Yglesias 30:10 I don't know how we got on this.

Joe Rogan 30:11 But chicken is delicious. Chicken is like su- ... Chicken ... Here's a weird thing about chicken. It used to be expensive. Like there was one of the, uh, I think it was ... Which president that was running for office and one of his promises was a chicken in every pot?

Matthew Yglesias 30:25 That was Hoover, right? Was-

Joe Rogan 30:26 I think it was.

Matthew Yglesias 30:26 ... he gave us a chicken in every pot.

Joe Rogan 30:27 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 30:27 And then, and then we got the Depression.

Joe Rogan 30:29 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 30:30 Uh, but yeah, chicken was high end. Now I ... So unfortunately my, uh, my knowledgeable friends say that the chickens are in horrifically cruel conditions.

Joe Rogan 30:40 Many are.

Matthew Yglesias 30:41 And that's how they got so cheap. So-

Joe Rogan 30:42 That's true.

Matthew Yglesias 30:43 ... I don't know.

Joe Rogan 30:43 But you can buy free range chickens.

Matthew Yglesias 30:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:45 You just have to make sure that you're ethical in your pursuit of, you know, where, where your chickens are grown. And-

Matthew Yglesias 30:52 Find the good ones.

Joe Rogan 30:52 Yeah, it's ... But even then.

Matthew Yglesias 30:54 Be a backyard chicken person.

Joe Rogan 30:55 Being a backyard chicken person-

Matthew Yglesias 30:57 Like the, like the weirdos in Portland.

Joe Rogan 30:58 Yeah, I was a backyard chicken person.

Matthew Yglesias 30:59 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:00 But it be- turned into a coyote apocalypse.

Matthew Yglesias 31:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:02 Those motherfuckers, they killed all my chickens slowly. It took, it took a long time, but they eventually got them all. We, we also went through a fire, and the fire actually burned down our chicken coops, but the chickens got out. While the fire was burning their chicken coop, it created a hole, and they got out and they were wandering around the yard. And so, we saved them from that and then put them into a smaller chicken coop. But, uh, the area that we lived in, there was so much fire that I think the amount of animals was greatly reduced. And, um, the coyotes, they got very clever and they literally pulled the chicken wire off of the chicken coop and created a small hole big enough for them to get inside, and then it was a slaughter fest.

Matthew Yglesias 31:44 Which is why I stay in big cities.

Joe Rogan 31:45 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 31:45 I'm afraid of the coyotes.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Well, that's the problem is coyotes are everywhere now.

Matthew Yglesias 31:49 Shit.

Joe Rogan 31:50 They're in every city in the country.

Matthew Yglesias 31:51 Wait, really?

Joe Rogan 31:52 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 31:52 Man.

Joe Rogan 31:52 Coyotes are a fascinating animal. If you want to really get into what happens when, uh, animals get pressured and-

Matthew Yglesias 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:58 ... like different methods of adaptation, there's a great book by Dan Flores called Coyote America. And, uh, it's all about the coyote and, and how the reason why they s- one of the reasons why they spread across the country, they were persecuted first by wolves.

Matthew Yglesias 32:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:15 Like, when wolves have encountered coyotes, they would kill the coyotes.

Matthew Yglesias 32:17 Wolves were bullying them?

Joe Rogan 32:18 They killed them 'cause they were competing for food.

Matthew Yglesias 32:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:20 So the coyotes learned how to spread their range, and they also developed this method of, of roll call. Like, wolves do it as well. They howl and they, they find out where everybody is. When coyotes do it, when the female coyotes recognize that coyotes are missing, all of a sudden her egg production ramps up and she gives birth to more pups. So, when more coyotes are missing, they don't just, they don't just come into estrus, they actually produce more puppies. And so, then they expand their range. So, they were originally persecuted in the West. That's where they really existed.

Matthew Yglesias 32:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:57 In the Southwest and the West. Now, they're in New York City.

Matthew Yglesias 33:00 Shit.

Joe Rogan 33:01 They're everywhere. Coyotes are in-

Matthew Yglesias 33:02 So, that's gotta be the super-

Joe Rogan 33:02 ... Chicago.

Matthew Yglesias 33:03 ... one billionth coyotes.

Joe Rogan 33:04 Dude, there's a fat one living on my block. He is fucking-

Matthew Yglesias 33:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:08 ... fat. My friend showed me a picture of it. I was like, "Oh, my God. Look at the size of this coyote." He was like a well-fed dog.

Matthew Yglesias 33:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:14 'Cause there's so many deer out here-

Matthew Yglesias 33:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... I guess they're just eating fawns and, you know, and whatever else they could find 'cause there's a lot of wildlife in Texas.

Matthew Yglesias 33:20 Sure.

Joe Rogan 33:21 But, yeah, coyotes are, uh, they're, they're literally in every city, every... San Francisco has coyotes, everywhere.

Matthew Yglesias 33:29 Now I'm scared.

Joe Rogan 33:29 Houston, coyotes.

Matthew Yglesias 33:30 Now I'm scared.

Joe Rogan 33:31 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 33:31 Scared to leave the house.

Joe Rogan 33:32 Don't be scared.

Matthew Yglesias 33:32 Scared of anything.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Don't be scared.

Matthew Yglesias 33:34 Scared to come on here, I think.

Joe Rogan 33:35 Will you?

Matthew Yglesias 33:36 I'm gonna get canceled.

Joe Rogan 33:37 Y- you think so?

Matthew Yglesias 33:38 Yeah, again.

Joe Rogan 33:39 Hmm. Are you really worried about that?

Matthew Yglesias 33:41 Well, people, people are mad about you.

Joe Rogan 33:42 Hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 33:43 Me too. I don't know. I'm just saying this.

Joe Rogan 33:44 People are mad. (sighs) Yeah, people are mad. They're mad about everything. They're b- they're not necessarily mad about actual content, they're mad about perceptions. They're mad about what they want you to be versus what you actually are sometimes.

Matthew Yglesias 33:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:56 You know? And then, they're also... You're dealing with, it's not a large number of people that are mad. It's a, a small number of very aggressive people that want to affect the way you do things.

Matthew Yglesias 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:08 And wanna change the way you talk and change who you talk to and change what you do.

Matthew Yglesias 34:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:14 Yeah. It's annoying.

Matthew Yglesias 34:15 Well, that's the thing, you know, I was, uh... So, I've been promoting a book for a while.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 34:18 Doing different shows, going on different things. Mostly, you know, liberal people read me, I guess. Uh, then I went on, uh, went on Ben Shapiro's show and-

Joe Rogan 34:26 Do you get canceled for that?

Matthew Yglesias 34:28 Well, I'm, you know, it's just like a lot of people yelling at me. They're like, "Why'd you go on that guy's show?" I said, "Well, it's a big show."

Joe Rogan 34:33 Yeah. And you wanna-

Matthew Yglesias 34:34 A lot of people listen to it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:35 You wanna have a debate with this guy-

Matthew Yglesias 34:37 I mean-

Joe Rogan 34:37 ... about some of these ideas.

Matthew Yglesias 34:38 You wanna be... I just like, you wanna introduce yourself-

Joe Rogan 34:41 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 34:41 ... to as many people as you can. Like, you don't get to be... Like, I, I wanna sell books.

Joe Rogan 34:47 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 34:47 I want people to listen to my podcast.

Joe Rogan 34:48 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 34:48 I want people to read my website. You know, I wanna, I wanna talk to different people, I wanna reach different audiences. And that just seems to me 10 years ago, everybody would think that was obvious.

Joe Rogan 34:59 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 34:59 Right? Not that, like, everyone agrees with everybody, but then, of course-

Joe Rogan 35:03 But Matthew-

Matthew Yglesias 35:03 ... you wanna go on the biggest shows you can get a book done.

Joe Rogan 35:05 ... most people today still think that's obvious.

Matthew Yglesias 35:07 Right, yes.

Joe Rogan 35:08 It's just a small percentage of people that have got into this idea of platforming and-

Matthew Yglesias 35:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:12 ... deplatforming and going on someone's platform-

Matthew Yglesias 35:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:16 ... and, you know, and amplifying someone's broadcast.

Matthew Yglesias 35:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:20 Like, there's all these, these terms that people are using now that is really just, it's separatism-

Matthew Yglesias 35:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:25 ... in a weird way. It's ideological separatism. And what we're doing is we're taking these echo chambers and putting walls up around them.

Matthew Yglesias 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:32 And, you know, enforcing it by yelling at people and being angry at people for having... Like my friend, Tim Dillon, uh, had a podcast recently with Candace Owens and, uh, he's like, "Holy shit, dude. The, the blowback was, like, stunning." So many people were angry with him talking to her. And maybe some of it was angry that he didn't push back on some of the things that she said that they, they believe are untrue or, or, or biased or distorted or, you know, what have you. But I think conversations with people that have fundamentally different values are important for us. It's interesting to watch how a person's thought process e-expands. Like, what, how do you think about things? Why do you think about this?

Matthew Yglesias 36:13 Well, and there's a fantasy that you can sort of make disagreement go away-

Joe Rogan 36:20 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 36:20 ... if you, you know, try to shut down-

Joe Rogan 36:24 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 36:24 ... certain cultural avenues. I mean, I think you saw that a lot in the election that just happened and, and you continue to see it in politics, that it's frustrating to people that they can't just win everything-

Joe Rogan 36:37 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 36:37 ... and have all their ideas go through.

Joe Rogan 36:38 And shut you up.

Matthew Yglesias 36:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:40 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 36:40 Um, but, you know, in the electoral r- arena as well as every place else, but it's just true that, like, this is a big country. There's a lot of people in it. People have some different ideas, some different values.

Joe Rogan 36:52 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 36:52 You don't need to agree with them. And of course, in a, in an election, like, it's vote. You try to win, right? You try to get more votes than the other guy. But-Conservatives aren't gonna go away. Progressive people aren't gonna go away. We're gonna continue to exist as an ethnically diverse society. We're gonna continue to exist as a society with some very traditionalistically-minded people. And we have to find stuff that we can make headway on. And the only way to have that kind of headway is to be communicating, because you don't actually know what exactly you agree or disagree about until you kind of have the, the dialogue, right? If you go hunting around to say, "Okay. This thing that this person said is so outrageous that I gotta just write them off."

Joe Rogan 37:40 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 37:41 Well, okay, you write them off, but they're still just right over there.

Joe Rogan 37:44 Right. Well, they're not, though-

Matthew Yglesias 37:46 Like, nothing...

Joe Rogan 37:46 ... in some cases.

Matthew Yglesias 37:47 And you, you can, you can blind yourself to-

Joe Rogan 37:49 No, no, no. Not so what I mean. I mean, one of the reasons-

Matthew Yglesias 37:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:52 ... why people have this perception that, uh, it's a good idea to not go on someone's platform and not talk to people... (dog barks) Whoa. Good, good save.

Matthew Yglesias 37:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:59 Good reflexes, buddy. Um, is because, uh, some people have been deplatformed, people like Milo Yiannopoulos-

Matthew Yglesias 38:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:05 ... and Gavin McInnes and Alex Jones. And there's people that have been removed from these, uh, significant portals, whether it's YouTube or Twitter.

Matthew Yglesias 38:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:13 And so people, they understand that that's effective-

Matthew Yglesias 38:16 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:17 ... and now they wanna expand that.

Matthew Yglesias 38:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:18 And once they, they learn how to do that, then they want to do it to other... I, I've seen people argue for people being deplatformed for just having dumb ideas.

Matthew Yglesias 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:25 Like, "You should deplatform him." I've, I've literally seen that in podcasts, and it's so frustrating. It's like, God, that's not how to handle things. Like, the, we, we're supposed to have debates. Supposed to have discussions. And I think because we've accepted this idea of censorship and deplatforming-

Matthew Yglesias 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:39 ... as a, a viable alternative to listening to things that upset you, "Just get rid of them. Shut them off."

Matthew Yglesias 38:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:46 And well, that's, that's this, th- and also, that reinforces the echo chamber. It's people with a very limited understanding of history in terms of, like, what happens when you do that to people.

Matthew Yglesias 38:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:57 And also a very limited understanding of just general human nature. The best way to get people to listen to your point of view is to express it eloquently and accurately and in, in a way that resonates. You say something to the people that are listening that they might be on one side or another. I mean, there's a lot of people that are kinda left and kinda right. And something can come along, they go, "Well..." And they like doing this. They like going, "Well, fuck this. I'm Trump now," or "Fuck this. Biden's my man now. Now Trump's gotta go." And it's, it could be one thing. There's a lot of people that don't have nuanced perspectives.

Matthew Yglesias 39:31 But that-

Joe Rogan 39:31 They don't have a, uh, an educated, long-term idea of what people are and, and how to communicate. And I watched a podcast, not a podcast, uh, a debate yesterday with William F. Buckley and Noam Chomsky.

Matthew Yglesias 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:46 And it's from 1970 or something. I don't know when it's from.

Matthew Yglesias 39:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:49 And it's an amazing conversation. It's amazing, 'cause you have two completely opposing viewpoints. You have William F. Buckley who's this kind of pompous right-wing guy, and you have Noam Chomsky, who was young and vital Noam Chomsky.

Matthew Yglesias 40:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:03 And it was amazing watching Noam Chomsky shut down William F. Buckley's ideas and have him, like, have them, him challenge the points where Buckley was wrong on. And it's a great fucking conversation. And there's a lot of people today that would not want that conversation, 'cause Noam Chomsky would be Ben Shapiro or whoever.

Matthew Yglesias 40:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:23 You know, and you'd be like, "Oh my God, why is Noam Chomsky," or, or, excuse me, William F. Buckley would be Ben Shapiro-

Matthew Yglesias 40:27 Sure, yeah. Why are you going on?

Joe Rogan 40:28 ... and Noam Chomsky would be on that show. People would go, "Why are you doing that? You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't give them a platform. You shouldn't go on their platform." But goddamn it, that's how people learn that your perspective is better or your perspective resonates more or your perspective makes more sense.

Matthew Yglesias 40:42 Well, and what I think really ideological people don't understand is that most people... Like, the, the technical term political scientists call it is, is they're, they're cross-pressured, right? So, like, you have some ideas that fit one way, some ideas that fit another way. You have some identities that go one way, some that go another way.

Joe Rogan 41:00 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 41:00 Right? And so people change over time, right? And you have voters who voted for Barack Obama, right? And then they vote for Donald Trump-

Joe Rogan 41:09 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 41:09 ... four, eight years later. And then people who are, who are really ideological, they say, like, "Well, Trump, like, he said all these outrageous racist things. So all these people who vote for them, they must be racist too." And you're like, "Well, okay, but like, they voted for the Black guy four years ago. Like, how racist could they be?" They're like, "No, no, no. It's racist. Racist." And then four years later, well, Trump's actually gained some Latino support, right?

Joe Rogan 41:34 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 41:34 "So, okay, so they're white supremacists too?" But like, no, right? And probably they don't agree with what Trump said about Mexican immigrants, right?

Joe Rogan 41:44 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 41:44 I find it very unlikely that Mexican American Trump supporters agree that Mexico is sending murderers and rapists across the country. But there's a lot of issues in politics. Maybe they agree with Trump about guns. Maybe they agree with Trump about abortion. Maybe they agree with Trump about, I don't know what.

Joe Rogan 41:59 Deregulation, business, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 42:00 There's just, like, a lot of shit happening, right?

Joe Rogan 42:02 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 42:03 And so if you can convince people to care about what you're aligned with them on, you know, you win, right? And if you can come across as the, the kind of friendly coalition that's like, "Hey, you agree with some of our stuff? Get on the bandwagon," right?

Joe Rogan 42:17 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 42:17 That's good. You win like that. And you're not gonna get anywhere by telling everyone about how much you don't want them-

Joe Rogan 42:26 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 42:27 ... right? Participating.

Joe Rogan 42:28 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 42:28 Being like, "Wow, you know, if you're, if you're not with me on everything-"

Joe Rogan 42:31 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 42:32 "... like, you're dead to me." That's not... Like, that's not how politics works.

Joe Rogan 42:36 No.

Matthew Yglesias 42:36 It's not how persuasion works.

Joe Rogan 42:37 No.

Matthew Yglesias 42:38 And it's not how interesting media works. You don't, you don't learn anything from shows like that-... books like that, things like that.

Joe Rogan 42:46 No, and-

Matthew Yglesias 42:46 And it's frustrating to me.

Joe Rogan 42:47 It's also, there's a tendency to embrace this polarization and to almost, like, solidify it. Like, even AOC, after the election, wanted everybody to put together a list of people that were supporting Trump and that voted for Trump and donated to Trump. I'm like, "Jesus Christ, are you really asking people to make lists? You know where this goes?"

Matthew Yglesias 43:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:05 Like, how is this possible that a congressman-

Matthew Yglesias 43:07 I don't know, I don't know what kind of list she wanted. Um-

Joe Rogan 43:09 She wanted a list of sycophants.

Matthew Yglesias 43:10 I don't remember, but um-

Joe Rogan 43:11 That was what she said, she wanted a list of sycophants.

Matthew Yglesias 43:13 Oh, of like Trump-

Joe Rogan 43:15 Trump sycophants.

Matthew Yglesias 43:15 So we could-

Joe Rogan 43:16 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 43:16 So we can-

Joe Rogan 43:18 Y- yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 43:18 ... kick them out or something.

Joe Rogan 43:19 Fucking make sure they don't work, that's what a lot of it is. Make sure those people are polarized.

Matthew Yglesias 43:23 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:23 Like, this is, these are the people that aren't on our side. These are the people that we have to shit on. And if you support them, you support all these negative things.

Matthew Yglesias 43:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:32 You support homophobia, racism, xenophobia, go down the list. And then, "I don't wanna support that." So you get bullied into a perspective.

Matthew Yglesias 43:40 You know, I got mixed feelings 'cause I, I cover politics.

Joe Rogan 43:43 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 43:43 So it's good for me when people get more geared up about national politics, right? Like-

Joe Rogan 43:48 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 43:48 ... the more people care, like, that's, that's, that's gravy for me. But I do think it's, like, not healthy, right? I mean, I want to go back to a time when people felt that the political arena was, like, for boring nerds.

Joe Rogan 44:04 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 44:05 And, you know, so, and you could talk about-

Joe Rogan 44:08 So you wanna go back when, so it's like when you're into a band, and then the band becomes big.

Matthew Yglesias 44:11 Hipsters, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 You're like, "Oh, they fucking sold out."

Matthew Yglesias 44:12 No, but no, but not, but not like that. Not, not that I wanna be like a, like a Congress hipster. No, it's that like, um, the more people care about politi- I mean, it's good to be engaged. It's good that people vote, it's good that people-

Joe Rogan 44:24 I think what you're saying is you want-

Matthew Yglesias 44:25 ... turn out.

Joe Rogan 44:25 ... people to actually understand what they're arguing about. And the people that are gonna actually understand what politics are all about are gonna be really into it.

Matthew Yglesias 44:33 But also to have limits, right? To just be able to say, all right, now I'm talking about my favorite band. Now I'm talking about my favorite basketball team. And I'm, like, not bringing politics-

Joe Rogan 44:46 Hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 44:46 ... into all of it.

Joe Rogan 44:47 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 44:48 Right? That it's like, it's, it's not, again, I, I say, it's like, it's good for me for people to turn politics into an all-consuming hobby.

Joe Rogan 44:56 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 44:56 But I don't think it's healthy for them or for, like, society.

Joe Rogan 45:00 Anybody else, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 45:01 It's one of the greatest things, it's one of the last bastions we have is that, you know, everybody in a given city usually roots for the football team. You know, Black, white, Latino, young, old, religious, secular. So you know it's Democrats and Republicans who are in there, they're all rooting for the team. It's fine to me that, you know, athletes, you become famous, you wanna use your platform, you wanna do good. I mean, that's great. But it's good to see people care passionately about hating the Dallas Cowboys rather than an ideological disagreement.

Joe Rogan 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 45:38 You know, I mean, I'm from DC so you know, our-

Joe Rogan 45:40 I know what you're saying.

Matthew Yglesias 45:40 ... our team, our team rivals with, with, with the, uh, with the Cowboys. It's cool to see those kinda cross-cutting things exist in a society. But we have, like, fewer of them, right? It seems like if you, you know, like, you buy a car, and that's gonna be a political statement based on what c- And I know, so it's like, I, I drive a Prius, right? So people see me coming, and it's like they know who I'm voting for-

Joe Rogan 46:01 Ugh.

Matthew Yglesias 46:01 ... based on that, right? And it's not, it's not wrong, but I don't think it's good, you know? Like, it would be better to be just more random.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Yeah. No, I see what you're saying. Yeah, well, the more ways that we can separate people, the, you know, the, the more separating we're gonna have. It's like, it is true that if you look at a Prius, I mean, I want, I would like to see, like, a breakdown, like a pie chart.

Matthew Yglesias 46:27 Right. How many, how many Prius owners voted for Trump?

Joe Rogan 46:29 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 46:29 It's like, it can't be a lot, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:31 Right, it's like what, I wonder what the number is. It's probably, like, less, it's probably single digits.

Matthew Yglesias 46:37 I mean, it can't be a lot. It would just, I would be sh- If somebody rolled up in a Prius and got out and had a MAGA hat on, like, my mind would be fucking blown, right?

Joe Rogan 46:46 That sounds like something that a provocative comedian would do.

Matthew Yglesias 46:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:49 If someone was just trying-

Matthew Yglesias 46:50 But it's weird, right?

Joe Rogan 46:51 ... to be silly.

Matthew Yglesias 46:51 Like, is that, is that healthy for society that we feel like we can infer so much about somebody for some totally... It's like I, I just, like, I wanted a reliable car.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Is it an act to

Narrator 47:01 them? Right.

Matthew Yglesias 47:01 They got good gas mileage.

Joe Rogan 47:03 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 47:03 And they'd fit in my, I've got this tiny-ass garage, so, like, most cars won't even fit in there, but, but my Prius does. So, you know, that's good, good for me.

Joe Rogan 47:11 Listen, my friend Greg has a Prius. I shit on him all the time for it, but it's a good car.

Matthew Yglesias 47:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:15 Bill Burr, my buddy Bill Burr had a Prius forever. It's not, they're not the worst cars in the world. They're super reliable. They just look like shit.

Matthew Yglesias 47:22 It's boring, it's boring. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:23 They're just, it's, it's, but it's transportation.

Matthew Yglesias 47:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:25 Look, if I was, you know, looking for something to take me to and from the city, and I, I had to park in small spots, and it's ideal.

Matthew Yglesias 47:34 See, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 47:34 It's better than a smart car. Those things are ridiculous. Like, that's too small, right?

Matthew Yglesias 47:38 Smart car effect.

Joe Rogan 47:38 That's too small. See, even Priuses shit on smart cars.

Matthew Yglesias 47:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:42 Right? The how, what, that's the real question. How many smart car owners voted for Trump? Fucking zero.

Matthew Yglesias 47:47 I don't know. Nobody in America owns those, do they?

Joe Rogan 47:48 Fucking zero. They do. I've seen those. I've seen them, smart cars.

Matthew Yglesias 47:51 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 47:51 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 47:51 I was in, uh, I was in Germany one time. I was in this, like, little van with some American journalists, German guy driving. And the alley's blocked 'cause there's just, like, a smart car and it's not parked correctly.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 48:03 So it's, it's up in our way. And, and the German guy's like, "Well, we're gonna have to wait." And the Americans are like, "We don't have to wait." He's like, "No, no, no, you gotta wait." And this lady, you know, she was like our leader. She was like, "No, the young guys, you guys get out of the van, pick the smart car up, and just move it to the side." And the German guy's like, "No, it's not possible. It's not possible." She's like, "Matt, go." And so we go up. You know, it's this tiny fucking car. So we just pick it up, move it a few feet over, or like a meter I guess they would say over there. And whoo, go right by. And the-

Joe Rogan 48:33 They were like, "This is astounding."

Matthew Yglesias 48:35 (laughs) He's like, "It's not possible."

Joe Rogan 48:36 "What have you done?"

Matthew Yglesias 48:36 And then she says to him, she's like, "You know, this is why you guys lost the war."

Joe Rogan 48:40 Oh, shit.

Matthew Yglesias 48:43 (laughs) It was-

Joe Rogan 48:43 Oh, shit.

Matthew Yglesias 48:43 ... it was real ugly American stuff.

Joe Rogan 48:45 That's so rude.

Matthew Yglesias 48:47 It was. But-

Joe Rogan 48:48 She was trying to be funny, obviously.

Matthew Yglesias 48:50 But-

Joe Rogan 48:50 Did he laugh?

Matthew Yglesias 48:51 ... we moved the car. He did not. Germans are not...... um-

Joe Rogan 48:54 They're a bit stoic.

Matthew Yglesias 48:55 Yeah, well also a particular... Look, they're sensitive on that subject.

Joe Rogan 48:59 I wanna watch them watch.

Matthew Yglesias 48:59 And I guess rightly so. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:01 They've outlawed Scientology over there.

Matthew Yglesias 49:03 Have they?

Joe Rogan 49:03 No? Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 49:04 I don't know anything about Scientology.

Joe Rogan 49:05 Really?

Matthew Yglesias 49:06 I mean, it's the w- there's thetans. That's what I know.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 49:09 And Tom Cruise.

Joe Rogan 49:10 Well, they're, they're not into cults, you know?

Matthew Yglesias 49:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:13 So if anything is demonstrably a cult, like if they can look at something and go, "Oh, I see where you're going here."

Matthew Yglesias 49:19 Yeah, that's out.

Joe Rogan 49:21 Yeah. They... Pretty sure that's true. Google that. Germany has outlawed Scientology. Um, yeah, I found a Scientology channel the other day. I didn't know it existed. Flipping through the channels, or maybe I knew and I forgot. Um, fucking DirecTV has a Scientology channel.

Matthew Yglesias 49:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:39 I saw this very unhealthy looking lady talking about, like, like what is possible because of being a Scientologist. I'm like, "What? This is li- Who is she talking to?" And like, "Why is no one disagreeing with her?" I'm like, "What is this?" And then I look at the channel, it's like, Scientology channel.

Matthew Yglesias 49:54 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:55 So it's all Scientology programming.

Matthew Yglesias 49:57 I used to walk past a Scientology church every day on my commute.

Joe Rogan 50:01 Did they try to grab you and put you in?

Matthew Yglesias 50:02 And... No, but they, um-

Joe Rogan 50:04 Hands reach out? Ugh.

Matthew Yglesias 50:05 There's a lot of, uh, illegal parking that they're doing there.

Joe Rogan 50:08 (gasps)

Matthew Yglesias 50:08 They're just pulled up on the sidewalk and, you know, and I wonder how they get away with it. And it's... I wanna-

Joe Rogan 50:13 Gotta bribe somebody.

Matthew Yglesias 50:14 I wanna spin up all kinds of, uh...

Joe Rogan 50:16 Oh, remains legal.

Matthew Yglesias 50:17 Uh-oh.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Okay. There's been calls to ban. Oh, it's banned in Russia.

Matthew Yglesias 50:20 We got-

Joe Rogan 50:20 Okay, I'm gonna f- fuck-

Matthew Yglesias 50:20 We got fake news.

Joe Rogan 50:21 Yeah, that's me.

Matthew Yglesias 50:22 We've gotta, we've gotta un-platform you.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Well, I always check my fake news.

Matthew Yglesias 50:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:26 Court in Russia has banned Moscow's Church of Scientology saying it does not comply with the federal laws on freedom of religion. According to Russia's TASS news agency, the country's Justice Ministry brought the case against the church, which is heard in Moscow city. So, so Scientology... It says, "Why is Scientology banned in Germany?" The German government does not recognize Scientology as a religion. Rather, it views it as an abusive business masquerading as a religion and believes that it pursues political goals that conflict with the values enshrined in German constitution. This stance has been criticized by the US government." So it does, but it says, "Why is Scien- Scientology banned in Germany?"

Matthew Yglesias 51:03 Yeah.

Narrator 51:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:03 So it is not banned in Germany or it is?

Narrator 51:06 I don't think it's from the same sign- uh, Wikipedia article that says-

Joe Rogan 51:08 Hmm.

Narrator 51:09 ... it's legal and allowed to operate.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Okay, so-

Matthew Yglesias 51:11 You just... But it's, but it's not a religion.

Joe Rogan 51:13 So they don't recognize it as a religion, so they allow the people a certain amount of freedom of expression, but they-

Matthew Yglesias 51:17 You probably don't get the tax benefits, right?

Joe Rogan 51:19 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 51:19 It's good, it's good you-

Joe Rogan 51:20 Do they have the same deal?

Matthew Yglesias 51:21 Scientology is one of those things. You ever have something that you, um, you kind of, like, never wanted to look into-

Joe Rogan 51:26 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 51:26 ... because you're afraid it's gonna be bad?

Joe Rogan 51:28 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 51:28 So it's like I, I wanna just keep liking Tom Cruise's movies.

Joe Rogan 51:32 Oh, Tom Cruise is great.

Matthew Yglesias 51:33 So I don't really wanna know-

Joe Rogan 51:34 Yeah, but Tom Cruise-

Matthew Yglesias 51:34 ... what's up with Scientology. I always hear bad things. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:36 He's crazy as fuck. Like and all great actors are crazy as fuck.

Matthew Yglesias 51:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Like and that's just his crazy. His crazy is that he believes that if you see a car broke down the side of the road, you've gotta go over and help them because you're a Scientologist-

Matthew Yglesias 51:48 Oh.

Joe Rogan 51:48 ... and that's what you do. Like, he's fucking super intense and dialed in, and he wants to do sit-ups as soon as you're done talking with him. Like, that's that guy. Like, he's fucking-

Matthew Yglesias 51:56 He's gonna help me with my car trouble.

Joe Rogan 51:57 He's like... All my friends that have met him, I'm like, "Dude, the guy looks at you." He remembers your name. He's got like fucking laser beams-

Matthew Yglesias 52:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:03 ... shooting out of his eyeballs. Yeah. What does it say?

Narrator 52:06 I thought he was just part of the article. I didn't-

Matthew Yglesias 52:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:07 You were talking about him and he was in it.

Narrator 52:09 Sorry, sorry.

Matthew Yglesias 52:09 There you go.

Joe Rogan 52:09 I thought you were bringing him up for some important news.

Narrator 52:11 Sorry.

Matthew Yglesias 52:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:11 Um, yeah. He's, uh, he's crazy, but so is Daniel Day-Lewis, right?

Narrator 52:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 He's crazy in a different way.

Matthew Yglesias 52:18 I guess.

Joe Rogan 52:18 Like, they're all... Christian Bale, that guy's fucking crazy. You know, Russell Crowe, he, he throws cell phones at people that work behind the counter at a hotel if he doesn't like what they're saying. There are... A lot of crazy people are brilliant actors.

Matthew Yglesias 52:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:30 It's just like, he keeps his shit together with this weird thing.

Matthew Yglesias 52:34 Weird religion.

Joe Rogan 52:34 Weird religion. And have you ever read Going Clear?

Matthew Yglesias 52:37 No. No.

Joe Rogan 52:37 Loren Wright's book? Oh my God, it's amazing.

Matthew Yglesias 52:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:40 It's amazing. The HBO documentary, the series, I think it was more than one thing. Maybe it was... I don't remember. Um, but that's really good too, but the book is fantastic. Going Clear.

Matthew Yglesias 52:49 So do, do you have to be crazy like that to be successful in the, in the podcast game? To get to the Rogan level-

Joe Rogan 52:55 (sighs) No.

Matthew Yglesias 52:56 ... do I need to become crazier?

Joe Rogan 52:57 No. Well, I just, I just started early.

Matthew Yglesias 52:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:59 It's a dirty trick. It's a dirty trick. I'm an early adopter. I, I just made it through. You know, like, there's probably a lot of people that make better, uh, cotton swabs than Q-tips.

Matthew Yglesias 53:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:09 Right? But Q-tip has been the name forever, right?

Matthew Yglesias 53:13 Sure.

Joe Rogan 53:13 So I got in in '99, or 2009 rather, so that's a long-ass time ago. Eleven years of doing a podcast is a long fucking time.

Matthew Yglesias 53:20 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 53:21 So that's the key.

Matthew Yglesias 53:22 Ground floor, first movie.

Joe Rogan 53:23 Yeah, and, and also just doing a lot of interviews.

Matthew Yglesias 53:26 Sure.

Joe Rogan 53:26 Yeah. Just give people a lot of shit, shit to listen to.

Matthew Yglesias 53:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:30 I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the fuck-

Matthew Yglesias 53:31 Just kill them, kill them with quantity.

Joe Rogan 53:33 I don't even know- I don't know what has made this popular. I don't.

Matthew Yglesias 53:35 (laughs) You should find out someday.

Joe Rogan 53:38 I don't wanna know.

Matthew Yglesias 53:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:40 I'll probably change it then.

Matthew Yglesias 53:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:42 I'll probably... I mean, I think you, if you pay attention too much to criticism or praise, you're, you're gonna fall victim to it one way or another.

Matthew Yglesias 53:49 No, I mean, that's true. I mean, it's not, uh, healthy to worry too much about what other people think.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Too much. But you gotta worry a little. You should think a little, because you don't wanna piss people off, you don't wanna be annoying. And I think, uh, I'm both of those things sometimes. But it's also inevitable when you're just thinking out loud, right? Because that's what we're... You and I, like, you could attest to this. We had very little conversation before we got here.

Matthew Yglesias 54:12 Yeah, no, I did ask twice. I was like, "What are we gonna talk about?" And everyone assured me. They're like, "No, you just go in. You're just gonna talk." So...

Joe Rogan 54:18 It works.

Matthew Yglesias 54:19 It's real. It's true.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Yeah, it really does work though. Like, you... So that, that's what I wanna hear. I wanna hear a conversation between two people.

Matthew Yglesias 54:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:26 I think interviews are interesting. I think debates are interesting.

Matthew Yglesias 54:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:29 But what I, I genuinely like to do is have conversations with people.

Matthew Yglesias 54:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:33 I just like to talk to people. It's fun. S- it's interesting. I, I wanna know why you think the way you think.

Matthew Yglesias 54:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:38 And especially this subject, because I keep going on about how I think there's something about... You know, let's just go back to this rat population density thing.

Matthew Yglesias 54:47 Okay.

Joe Rogan 54:47 What they did was they took these rats-... they put them in a large container, a large, uh, area, and they only had a couple of rats. And the rats just behaved like rats.

Matthew Yglesias 54:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:56 And then as they ramped up, it mirrored essentially all of the problems that you see in big cities. They started getting more violence, they started getting mentally ill rats that would literally sit in a corner and rock themselves back and forth, things that just didn't exist-

Matthew Yglesias 55:10 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:10 ... when there's small amounts of rats in a containment area. I think people react to the people that are around them in, uh, in a very, uh, tangible way. And one of the things they used to demonstrate this is they've taken... There was a very good, uh, Radiolab podcast that talked about this, where they took, uh, cameras and they would put a camera on one end of the street and a camera on the other end of the street. And they would time people walking from one end to the other. So they would track their, their footsteps, and then through that, when they would, you know, have a certain amount of data, they could accurately determine how many people lived in the city.

Matthew Yglesias 55:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:48 Just by how quickly someone moved from point A to point B. And that, the-

Matthew Yglesias 55:52 So a big city is people walk faster?

Joe Rogan 55:54 Yes. They walk faster. Not only do they walk faster-

Matthew Yglesias 55:56 Oh, good for us.

Joe Rogan 55:56 ... they talk faster.

Matthew Yglesias 55:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:58 So if you listen to someone form se- if you listen to a certain amount of people form sentences, you can get a very accurate number, like really close, to what the population density or what the population of that area is.

Matthew Yglesias 56:09 That's interesting.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Which is really interesting. Yeah, so there's a reaction that we have to each other. Too many people makes people walk faster and talk faster, and some people love that. And my friends that live in New York City that love it, one of the things they say is the city's got so much energy.

Matthew Yglesias 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:24 So much energy. And I agree. You go there and you're like, "Wow, so much energy." But that's, you're reacting to other biological entities, right? It's like, there's weird things that happen with people when they're around other people. Like women, when they're around other women, get coinciding wes- menstrual cycles, right?

Matthew Yglesias 56:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:38 We don't really totally understand that.

Matthew Yglesias 56:40 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 56:40 We know it's like pheromones and they're reacting to each other. I think there's strange things that are happening when people around people. I think it's one of the reasons why podcasts in-person are far better than podcasts through Zoom. Like, it's great to be able to talk to people that otherwise I couldn't talk to through that-

Matthew Yglesias 56:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:57 ... but there's an impersonal, sort of disconnected, there's a, the, the, there's a magic that's missing.

Matthew Yglesias 57:03 Yeah, but so I'd like, I'm more on that point, right?

Joe Rogan 57:07 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 57:07 Like, there's great energy in-person.

Joe Rogan 57:11 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 57:11 I think that, you know, the move to doing everything remotely because of the pandemic, you know, I think has really hurt sort of, uh, like morale in a lot of institutions, harder for people to get along-

Joe Rogan 57:23 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 57:23 ... harder for people to relate to each other. I also think when you look at innovation, right? Like big, like, you know, inventions, new ideas, new developments, they tend to come out of urbanized areas, right? Where people are bouncing off each other, you know, maybe like drinks after work, maybe at a party somewhere. People who, you know, work broadly in the same field are just able to see each other-

Joe Rogan 57:49 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 57:49 ... and interact randomly, right? And that kind of energy generates a lot of, uh, you know, where our sort of growth comes from as a kind of a, a modern society. And there's nothing wrong with, um, you know, people living in small towns, people living in the countryside. There's a lot of great stuff out there. Obviously also we, uh, like we need food. Uh-

Joe Rogan 58:09 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 58:09 Without, without farmers, we'd be, we'd be kind of fucked as a, as a society. But there's a reason why you see a trend toward urbanization over thousands and thousands of years. You know, people trying to find more ways to have more interactions with each other, because I think we're not rats ultimately, right? Like you put those rats in the crowded thing and like they don't, they don't invent shit, you know? They're still, they're still rats. Uh-

Joe Rogan 58:35 Right, but you understand that the issue is-

Matthew Yglesias 58:37 No, no, I mean I see, I see what you mean.

Joe Rogan 58:38 ... the negative aspects of overpopulation-

Matthew Yglesias 58:40 They're, they're-

Joe Rogan 58:41 ... are represented in rat population density studies.

Matthew Yglesias 58:43 Right, I mean there are, there's definitely... I mean look, there's definitely more violence in big cities.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 58:48 Uh, you see that really clearly. On the other hand, you do see better health outcomes in the contemporary United States in metro areas than you do in rural ones. Uh, I don't know exactly why that is, but it's-

Joe Rogan 59:00 Better he- health outcomes-

Matthew Yglesias 59:00 ... but it tells us something.

Joe Rogan 59:01 ... in terms of response to hospitalization or better health outcomes in terms of like the overall quality of life and healthy-

Matthew Yglesias 59:10 I mean just like life expectancy, obesity-

Joe Rogan 59:13 Yeah?

Matthew Yglesias 59:13 ... that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 59:13 The, the life expectancy is higher, like really in, in New York City than Boulder, Colorado?

Matthew Yglesias 59:18 Uh-

Joe Rogan 59:19 Is that real?

Matthew Yglesias 59:19 No, Colorado is actually number one.

Joe Rogan 59:21 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 59:21 Uh, but in general, I mean New York-

Joe Rogan 59:23 But you know Boulder only has 100,000 people.

Matthew Yglesias 59:25 Yeah, but New York and California are some of the highest life expectancy states in the country. You know, the really low ones, West Virginia, uh, places like that.

Joe Rogan 59:34 But that's extreme poverty.

Matthew Yglesias 59:36 Well, they're poor, but that's-

Joe Rogan 59:37 Right, but there's-

Matthew Yglesias 59:37 ... part of the issue, right?

Joe Rogan 59:39 ... but a lot of rural-

Matthew Yglesias 59:39 Like wealth comes out of urb- now maybe that'll change, right? Maybe we're gonna have the technology that people can... And you know, we've gotta make some investments in broadband, other stuff like that. I mean maybe we can have much more prosperity in rural areas, and like that would be great.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 59:57 Uh, 'cause I mean A, it would just be good for people there. Also, you know, people like it. It, it'll be cool. I have some hope that all this Zoom and stuff will do that, but I also have some doubts. I mean I'm just not sure that you can fully replicate the sort of value of in-person interaction. Uh, and it's a, it's just a way that I do think we're, we're different from rats.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 The only way that's ever gonna come about is through virtual reality. Virtual reality if, if it gets to a point where you and I can put on goggles and be in a room together almost like this.

Matthew Yglesias 1:00:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 That's pretty close.

Matthew Yglesias 1:00:30 Well, I think it's... I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not quite technical enough to know what the problem is. But to me the issue with all kinds of Zoom things, right?

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 1:00:39 It's not the visual experience, it's the lags. You know, like the hardest thing for me as, as a professional talker about anything remote, you know, not just video, right? You do, um-

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Just latency?

Matthew Yglesias 1:00:53 Yeah, the latency. It's hard, it's hard to have a conversation when you're constantly worried about the timing...... and the interruptions-

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 When you talk, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:01:01 ... and how that back and forth works. It's very unnatural. And I don't know, like, if there's gonna be a VR solution for that. Like, I think that latency's a killer.

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 The latency is a killer, but the latency is not as bad if you have headphones on, if both of you have headphones on. The problem is o- oftentimes one person has speakers and the other person is using headphones, and when the one person is talking, the way Zoom works and Skype works, it's very difficult for you to hear the other person talking while you're talking. It sort of drowns everything out.

Matthew Yglesias 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 And it, it, it fucks up... I've had some brutal conversations with people-

Matthew Yglesias 1:01:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 ... where they literally don't even hear what I'm saying. Like, they're saying something wrong and I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are you sayi-" And they just keep going. I'm like, "Hold on. Hold on. Hold on! You can't... That's not real. Like, stop."

Matthew Yglesias 1:01:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 And they're like, "Oh, Jesus." And then you realize, like, okay, they, they could barely hear me while they were talking. I can't really talk. Whereas, like, if you're talking and I'm like, "What?" And then you hear it, it's like we're in the same room. We're also wearing headphones together, which is better than even being in the same room and not having headphones on-

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 ... because your voice in my ears, like, there's a couple times I've talked to you earlier where I realized it as I was doing it. I was like, "Oh." Like-

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 ... "I don't wanna do that." Like, it's just the thing of learning the rhythm of people communicating, but when, when the headphone's, your voice is as loud as my voice.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 And it's at the same... It's right there in the ears. So it locks you in.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:22 Well, and we're, uh, you're, you're Italian? Is that-

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 Mostly.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:25 And I'm, I'm Jewish mostly and, you know, New York, New Jersey and, you know, uh, it is a stereotype people are like, "Oh," but, like, we're always talking over each other at dinner-

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:34 ... you know, family and my-

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:35 ... my wife, she's a, she's a, a WASPy person, little more reserved and-

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:39 ... I think the first time she, she came home to see my family, she was like, "What's going on here?" Like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:43 ... "Everybody's just yelling constantly." Uh, but to me it's a very natural way to communicate.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Communicate, yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:49 Yeah, to have a little overlap.

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:02:50 Right? And part of being human is, like, understanding those cues and when you intersperse the technology, right, and the latency and the lags in there, it, it's a very different experience. And, like, professional interviewers figure out how to do it-

Joe Rogan 1:03:06 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:03:06 ... you know, 'cause they're pros, but it's not normal.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Yeah, you, you have to work with it and it's difficult, and oftentimes professional interviewers, they actually use that to talk over each other.

Matthew Yglesias 1:03:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Like, if you're watching CNN, if there's opposing viewpoints, oftentimes these fucking anchors just talk over people.

Matthew Yglesias 1:03:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 And they don't let the person get their point out, and they also know that they only have seven minutes and they're also working towards a sound bite. As much as they're having a conversation, they're probably more likely setting traps or anticipating outcomes and working towards some sort of gotcha moment.

Matthew Yglesias 1:03:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 And this is... It's not a conversation.

Matthew Yglesias 1:03:40 And they tell you if you get... You know, I've gotten, uh, media training, you know, to do, go on cable, right? And then what they tell you is before you go on cable, 'cause you're only gonna be on there for a couple minutes, you decide what you wanna say, right? You distill it to a few quick talking points and you just make sure to say that no matter what question you get asked.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Oh, God.

Matthew Yglesias 1:04:00 And that's, that's training. That's the advice they give to the pundits, the talking heads who go on, to the politicians who come on. You know, and, like, worst case you say, "Well, you know, Wolf, I think the real issue is..." And then boom, you just do your talking points. And that's terrible. Like, it's a terrible product.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:04:18 You know, like, you watch those shows and you are not learning anything.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 1:04:23 Because the people are sent on there programmed to do that. Like, that's what the pros tell you you should do as a guest. But why would you wanna watch that? Well, it's the only thing-

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 I mean, you wouldn't wanna watch it. I, I, I mean, I-

Matthew Yglesias 1:04:36 I might, I do, I'll watch some clips sometimes on YouTube, but I, I never watch it live on television unless I'm at a fucking airport or something-

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 (laughs)

Matthew Yglesias 1:04:42 ... and it's the only thing on. I think it's a nonsense way of communicating. I think it's a terrible way to express ideas, and it's one of the reasons why I don't do any of those shows. I won't do it. Like, I just, I don't, I don't wanna do any of those shows where you sit down at a panel and a bunch of people yell over each other. Like, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in being right. I just wanna talk. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Like, if, if people have... Like, if I go on a, if I go on one of those shows and I have, uh, a viewpoint or a perspective that's definitely different than the person who has a, a perspective, I wanna listen to that person.

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 I don't wanna just be right.

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 I might be right and I might think I'm right and I might be really looking forward to telling them that I think I'm right-

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 ... but I really wanna listen to them too.

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 I wanna know what the fuck they think-

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 ... and why they think what they think. And I, the only way to really have a good argument against it is to have a real clear understanding of what that person is saying, and I wanna look at it through their perspective. I want, like... There's a lot of times people have said, "Oh, you know, you take the side of your, uh, your guest a lot of times even if, you know, you've taken different sides before." I'm like, "That's not what I'm doing. It m- might seem like that's what I'm doing. What I'm really doing is I want them to fully express what they think." So I wanna find out why they think that way, so I wanna think the way they're thinking. So if they start saying something like, "Oh, yeah? So you, you feel like we should do it this way because-"

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:58 You're trying to draw it out.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:05:59 You're trying to explicate what's, what's going on.

Joe Rogan 1:06:00 I'm also trying to learn.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 I'm trying to get it. I'm trying to get it from their perspective. Like, sometimes, sometimes people will say things, and I had an idea of what I believed before I started talking to them and then they start talking and I go, "Oh. Ooh, that makes sense. I get it now." And maybe I did have a different opi- opinion a week ago, but I'm not married to my opinions.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 And when you're on those fucking cable shows, you have to be married to your opinions. You're just talking over each other. And it's so much, so many gotcha moments. It's just gross. If I ever have someone over my house and they talked to me like that, I'd be like, "Get the fuck out of here."

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:33 Well, what I hate about it-

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 "I don't wanna talk to you like that."

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:35 ... is they put you on like that, right? And so you're supposed to be repping your team.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:40 Right? And so if you do... If you actually are thoughtful, right? If you ever concede that the other perspective might have some merit-

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:48 ... or that you don't have all the answers-

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:51 ... then you're, you're taking the L for your team.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:55 And people are gonna be disappointed in you.

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:06:57 And I don't ever wanna be in that...... position, right? That's not interesting, as a-

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:01 ... as a thinker, as a writer, as a host, to just be out there as a cog in the machine-

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 I couldn't agree more.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:09 ... playing the role, it's, it's boring. I mean, the world is a complex place. I change my thinking about things a lot because, I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm stupid, but I, I like (laughs) to think it's because-

Joe Rogan 1:07:24 No, you're thinking.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:24 ... it's like stuff happens, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:26 And like you wanna live and participate in the world of ideas not as like, um, a combat sport.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Yes.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:34 You know? I mean, you argue with people. I, uh, you get passionate about things sometimes. But the idea is to learn, to persuade, to become smarter, to help your audience become smarter. And that's not about trying to beat the other guy into submission.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Right.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:52 But so much, I mean really on television, of media is constructed that way as this like spectacle.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 Yeah.

Matthew Yglesias 1:07:59 And I, I, I'm not above wa- uh, in other arenas, like it's amazing to just like watch two, two sports teams go at it and, and see who's gonna win, see who's gonna-

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 It's stupid.

Matthew Yglesias 1:08:09 ... gonna score the most points. But for, for like ideas, it's dumb.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Yeah, it's stupid to do that with conversations. And I, I do agree, it's fun to watch people do that with sports. It's g- it's exciting. But i- uh, sports are a different animal. It's a different thing. I think conversations are missing from media. We don't have conversations. The only way they have conversations is if it's an echo chamber and it's two people like Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo agreeing on something and they, they have something that they agree about and they talk. That's a conversation, sort of.

Matthew Yglesias 1:08:38 (laughs) Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 But even that's bullshit 'cause it's p- preplanned out and they've gone over what they're gonna say in advance.

Matthew Yglesias 1:08:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 You know? They're not just talking about things. And I also think that most ideas, uh, or like an idea that's controversial, like your idea of a billion Americans. Like this is an idea that I think should be expressed in a, a long form conversation 'cause it's the best way to y- y- look at all your perspectives-

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:04 ... and see why... And I think, you know, like right, right away, my perspective was I don't think that that's a good idea 'cause that's too many people. But I see what you're saying and I listen to what you're saying and I go, "Oh, okay, I could look at this the same way."

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:17 How many, how many people do you want?

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 I don't think there's a number.

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 I don't, I don't have a number. But I am pro-immigration. You know, I think-

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 ... listen, I, uh, I would be incredible- incredibly hypocritical if I was anti-immigration. I love a lot of immigrants. I know a lot of immigrants 'cause I know a lot of fighters 'cause a lot of, uh-

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:34 ... people from the UFC, a lot of them are immigrants.

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:36 Um, I'm grateful that they're here. I'm grateful that my grandparents had an opportunity to come here. I'm, um, I think this is an amazing place. Um, I am pro-America as an idea.

Matthew Yglesias 1:09:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 I think the idea of American, uh, American people, the idea of this melting pot, the idea of this place that is, in quotes, "the land of opportunity." This is what people think. When you say the land