Joe Rogan Experience #1576 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:02

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Good to see you again.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller0:16

      Thanks.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      When did, uh, we do the podcast before? What year was it?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller0:18

      I think it was 10 years ago. 10 or 11-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Wow.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller0:20

      ... years ago.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      That's crazy. You were one of the first guests that I remember going, "We gotta s- I gotta talk to that lady." I go, "We gotta find them." Because th- the- the piece, the OxyContin Express that you did, I'm like, "That was a mind-blower." That was when I first found out about what was going on in the pill mills down in Florida. I was like, "That is fucking insane." And, um, that was, like, in the beginning of the podcast, the early days.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller0:47

      It was, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller0:48

       You reached out to me on Twitter, and I was super excited.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Is that what it was? (laughs)

   13. MZMariana van Zeller0:50

       Yeah. It's like, "Do you wanna come on the show?" I was like, "Fuck yeah." (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Yeah. Well, um, I love your new show. First of all, tell people what it is, what it's called, and how they can-

   15. MZMariana van Zeller0:59

       For sure. It's, it's called Trafficked. It's on Wednesdays, 9:00 PM on National Geographic. And, uh, in every episode, we go on a journey, a wild journey into black markets around the world.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       You do real boots-on-the-ground investigative journalism. You are a fucking gangster woman.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller1:16

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       The shit that you did in Peru and in Colombia, I was watching that episode on cocaine, I, my hands were sweating watching-

   19. MZMariana van Zeller1:24

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       ... you do this. It's like you were, you went to the places where they're growing it, to the places where they make it.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller1:32

       That's right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Whew.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller1:34

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       That- that was, you marched with the people that carry it through the route when they're carrying it in their backpacks.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller1:41

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:41

       I was like, "Oh my god." Like, "You're risking your life," like, l- genuinely risking your life.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller1:46

       I don't like to see it that way. You know, no story is worth, uh, a life. So I hate, I ha- you know, we, we mini- minimize the risk. But, you know, there's, these are important stories to tell. These black markets are happening all around us. They are super widespread. I think we have this idea that they're happening in sort of faraway lands and deep and secret locations, but they're not. And they have a real impact on our lives. Um, so there is a reason why we do the kind of reporting. And you're right, you know, boots on the grounds, uh, old-school journalism, I think, is more important now than ever. And we are seeing less of it nowadays, um-

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       It's so hard to do. I mean-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller2:22

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       ... to find someone willing to do what you did for that cocaine episode. I watched it last night. I was, I was s- sweating. I was, like, nervous. I was riveted. It's a, it- it's such a, it's such a dangerous, but yet it's so much more illuminating than any other kind of journalism. You could say, "Oh, this is happening in Colombia. Oh, this is happening in Peru." And I'll just sit at home going, "Oh, I guess that's happening in Colombia."
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well- …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller15:00

      I don't think we realize that.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      Well-

   3. MZMariana van Zeller15:02

      We're not grateful enough for that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      I think it needs to be shown in a, like, the w- what you showed in that cocaine episode. You see these people, you see these children playing on that car and, you know, and hanging out by these coca leaves that are being dried out, and you realize like, oh, this is- this is not what I thought it was. This isn't, you know, some movie where you got these bad guys that are, you know, guarding the farm with machine guns. Like th-

   5. MZMariana van Zeller15:27

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:27

      ... this is not it.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller15:28

      No.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      Like, you- you just have poor farmers.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller15:30

      Yeah, I mean, that exists too. (laughs) You know, we filmed a lot of-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       Yeah, I'm sure.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller15:33

       ... armed guards, uh, protecting their money and their operations as- as well. Um, but I would say that in the vast majority of cases, it really is the lack of opportunities. I really don't believe that anyone is born one day and decides, "Hey, you know, what I want to do is, uh, I want to become a sicario for the Sinaloa cartel and be killed when I'm 25 years old. Uh, I want to kill people and then, um, be killed when I'm 25," which happens.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       The poverty was... It was obvious even in the people that were protecting their crops and everything. Like, they have poor- they have shitty old guns with, like, iron sights on them.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller16:10

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:10

       And sh- and shitty rifles. Yeah.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller16:12

       Shitty old guns, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Yeah, you could see. Like, this is not some, like, super sophisticated operation of... It's a- it's taking advantage of people that... Or h- or is it even, it's just like this is the ecosystem, right? And the ecosystem, this is what I was gonna get at before, only exists because drugs are illegal. And if the ecosystem was different, if drugs were legal-

   17. MZMariana van Zeller16:38

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       ... and then all- I mean, how long would it take? How many decades would it have to take before a large pharmaceutical company or some alcohol company or a tobacco company said, "Fuck it, let's grow coke."

   19. MZMariana van Zeller16:50

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       And then just started selling it legally?

   21. MZMariana van Zeller16:54

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:54

       Like, 100% pure cocaine, the price would probably drop.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller16:58

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       It would be much more accessible. Would people do it more, is the question?

   25. MZMariana van Zeller17:04

       You know, that's what we're seeing with the marijuana business in California right now.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       Yeah.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller17:08

       Uh, where it was legalized, and what's happening is that the people that have been operating these, at the time, illegal shops for weed and operations for weed are now being kicked out of the business. And there's all these bigger companies coming in and taking, uh, you know, taking away the business for them- from them. Um...

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       Well, there's a little bit of that. Um, but there's still a lot of people that are just growing it now. And they're- i- it's not just big businesses. It's a lot- I know a lot of people that grow pot.

   29. MZMariana van Zeller17:34

       For sure.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:34

       It's a lot of small businesses too.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Neither do I, yeah.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      you know, speakeasies were still open. They just... uh, you know, you had a special knock on the door and you had to know somebody, but they were still drinking. People like to drink. I, I don't do coke and you don't do coke, so you and I, we could look at this, I, I think, as objectively as possible. I think it should be legal. I don't want my children to do it. I don't want my friends to get addicted to it.

   2. MZMariana van Zeller30:20

      Neither do I, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:21

      But I also think maybe the only way we're gonna really resolve it is if you have treatment centers and rehabilitations that are funded by the profit off of legalized cocaine and, and heroin and all these other drugs. If we had... look, if, if heroin was legal tomorrow, I'm not gonna fucking do heroin. Like, I don't wanna do heroin. But it is legal and OxyContin, I mean, you can-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller30:44

      Exactly.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:44

      That's still basically the same thing, right?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller30:46

      Right, exactly. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:48

      W-... th- there should be... if you wanna make sense of this, there should be some sort of a percentage of the profits that has to go to rehabilitation centers. And then there's another one, Ibogaine. Ibogaine has been proven to be the very best method for many people for kicking addictions.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller31:07

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:08

      And not just addictions of, of chemicals, but addictions of, like, endogenous chemicals-

   10. MZMariana van Zeller31:12

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       Like gambling.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller31:14

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       Like people that are gambling addicts have found great relief with Ibogaine. People that are addicted to alcohol, people that are addicted to a lot of different controlled substances have found amazing relief through Ibogaine. And Ibogaine is not something you get addicted to. It is a, a ruthlessly introspective drug and you have to go to Mexico to do it. There's Ibogaine clinics.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller31:33

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       My friend, Ed Clay, he started a clinic down in Mexico because he got hooked on pills 'cause he got hurt and he wanted to figure out how to get off of them, found out about Ibogaine, did it. It was so mind-blowing-

   16. MZMariana van Zeller31:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:45

       ... he decided to open up a clinic.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller31:47

       Wow. I, I knew it was for... I didn't know... I thought it was just for opiates. I had no idea that it cured or it helped cure so many of the other addictions.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       A lot of personality disorders.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller31:54

       Wow.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:54

       Yeah, a lot of people... there's a lot of weird addictions that people have that are in m- in many ways connected to trauma. You know, Gabor Maté thinks that, like, almost all addiction is connected to childhood trauma-

   22. MZMariana van Zeller32:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       And he makes a very compelling argument about it, and, uh, it's interesting to hear him discuss it because everyone that I know that's an addict has had a fucked up childhood, you know?

   24. MZMariana van Zeller32:14

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:14

       It kinda makes sense.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller32:15

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       There's, there's something there that was off and wrong or there's abuse or there's-

   28. MZMariana van Zeller32:20

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       ... something. And a lot of soldiers.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller32:24

       Wow, so many.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

   2. MZMariana van Zeller45:00

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      I don't know because I'm not a, I have not done the Adderall.

   4. NANarrator45:02

      A lot different.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller45:03

      Is it?

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      A lot different. Yeah, Jamie's done that.

   7. NANarrator45:05

      I'm looking it up. Like, Adderall s- has, uh, amphetamine in it.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller45:08

      Oh, right.

   9. NANarrator45:08

      This is not.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:09

       Yeah.

   11. NANarrator45:09

       It says, it says a wakefulness promoting agent, but I don't know what that means.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller45:11

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:12

       Yeah, see, uh, but see if the origin of... Provigil was the first one. And I b- believe Nuvigil-

   14. MZMariana van Zeller45:18

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:18

       ... they did, they, they changed it and altered it slightly to get around a patent or something. I forget what the exact reason was. But, um, these are not, they're not speed. But I think they are addictive. At least addictive in the fact that it has an effect, an impact. Like, I was very careful not to take it too often.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller45:39

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:39

       Like, sometimes I'd take it before a podcast, and I'd be like, "Hmm."

   18. MZMariana van Zeller45:42

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:44

       (laughs)

   20. MZMariana van Zeller45:44

       Wait, even more energy than right now? (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:46

       Yes. Well, I'm, I came here right from the gym, so I'm pretty, pretty amped up.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller45:50

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:51

       Um, but, uh, is that-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller45:52

       Wait, how, how do you stand on steroids, by the way? What's your... 'Cause one of our episodes was about steroids.

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       I think that steroids are many, there's, there's a lot of different things that are legal now.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller46:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       In terms of like, you can get testosterone replacement therapy, hormone replacement therapy, and they basically give you the vial, right?

   28. MZMariana van Zeller46:12

       But only if you have low levels of those, of testosterone, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       Mm...

   30. MZMariana van Zeller46:17

       Or can you just-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:08:58

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      you know, uh, immunity.

   2. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:01

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:02

      If you got rid of all the people that tested positive when... They took away Lance Armstrong's jerseys or whatever-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      You get a jersey from winning, you know, a- all his victories. I mean, he has them on the wall in his house.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

      You took away all those-... well, who wins then? Who wins those years? Well, you have to go back to 18th place to find someone who didn't test positive.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:25

      (laughs) Wow.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

      Do you know that?

   10. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:26

       No, I had no idea.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

       18th place.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

       And that guy probably just had a really good chemist and he probably was full of shit too, or maybe-

   14. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:32

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       ... he like cycled off right before the race. It's a dirty sport.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:36

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       Bill Burr has a great bit about it.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:38

       Bill Burr the comedian has a hilarious bit about, uh, like, our psycho is better than your psycho. And it's like, it's f- you're, you're dealing with a dirty sport.

   20. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:45

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

       It's a, uh, an entirely dirty sport. They've been blood doping and they've been doing EPO and testosterone and all these different things. And then there's a real argument that it's actually healthier to do that-

   22. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:58

       Huh.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

       ... with drugs than it is to not do with drugs. Because without the drugs, your body has such a difficult time recovering from the massive amount of work you have to do when you're doing something at the Tour de France, 'cause you're racing-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:10

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       ... every day for a long time.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:12

       Yes. It's super, super human.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

       Yeah.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:14

       You know another sport that I had no idea where apparently, um, it's used heavily is in tennis. Did you know that?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:20

       Really?

   30. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:20

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:08:19