Joe Rogan Experience #1576 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:02 – 0:54

   Reconnecting after a decade & why “Trafficked” hits different

   1. NANarrator0:02

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Good to see you again.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller0:16

      Thanks.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      When did, uh, we do the podcast before? What year was it?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller0:18

      I think it was 10 years ago. 10 or 11-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Wow.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller0:20

      ... years ago.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      That's crazy. You were one of the first guests that I remember going, "We gotta s- I gotta talk to that lady." I go, "We gotta find them." Because th- the- the piece, the OxyContin Express that you did, I'm like, "That was a mind-blower." That was when I first found out about what was going on in the pill mills down in Florida. I was like, "That is fucking insane." And, um, that was, like, in the beginning of the podcast, the early days.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller0:47

      It was, yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller0:48

       You reached out to me on Twitter, and I was super excited.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Is that what it was? (laughs)

   13. MZMariana van Zeller0:50

       Yeah. It's like, "Do you wanna come on the show?" I was like, "Fuck yeah." (laughs)

2. 0:54 – 4:58

   What “Trafficked” covers: black markets everywhere, not just “faraway lands”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:54

      Yeah. Well, um, I love your new show. First of all, tell people what it is, what it's called, and how they can-

   2. MZMariana van Zeller0:59

      For sure. It's, it's called Trafficked. It's on Wednesdays, 9:00 PM on National Geographic. And, uh, in every episode, we go on a journey, a wild journey into black markets around the world.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:08

      You do real boots-on-the-ground investigative journalism. You are a fucking gangster woman.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller1:16

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:16

      The shit that you did in Peru and in Colombia, I was watching that episode on cocaine, I, my hands were sweating watching-

   6. MZMariana van Zeller1:24

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      ... you do this. It's like you were, you went to the places where they're growing it, to the places where they make it.

   8. MZMariana van Zeller1:32

      That's right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:33

      Whew.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller1:34

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       That- that was, you marched with the people that carry it through the route when they're carrying it in their backpacks.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller1:41

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:41

       I was like, "Oh my god." Like, "You're risking your life," like, l- genuinely risking your life.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller1:46

       I don't like to see it that way. You know, no story is worth, uh, a life. So I hate, I ha- you know, we, we mini- minimize the risk. But, you know, there's, these are important stories to tell. These black markets are happening all around us. They are super widespread. I think we have this idea that they're happening in sort of faraway lands and deep and secret locations, but they're not. And they have a real impact on our lives. Um, so there is a reason why we do the kind of reporting. And you're right, you know, boots on the grounds, uh, old-school journalism, I think, is more important now than ever. And we are seeing less of it nowadays, um-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       It's so hard to do. I mean-

   16. MZMariana van Zeller2:22

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       ... to find someone willing to do what you did for that cocaine episode. I watched it last night. I was, I was s- sweating. I was, like, nervous. I was riveted. It's a, it- it's such a, it's such a dangerous, but yet it's so much more illuminating than any other kind of journalism. You could say, "Oh, this is happening in Colombia. Oh, this is happening in Peru." And I'll just sit at home going, "Oh, I guess that's happening in Colombia."

   18. MZMariana van Zeller2:50

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       But to see you, who I know-

   20. MZMariana van Zeller2:52

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       ... there, going there, and to see all the stuff that you had to go through to meet with these people and to gain their trust.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller3:00

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       Huh.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller3:01

       I would say also, I would add to that, that, uh, you know, we did Mexico with fentanyl. We did guns here in the US going to Mexico. We did tigers in Asia and all these, uh, different scams in Jamaica and Israel. And I think a big important reason or goal for us with this show, uh, and for me in particular because it's the way that I approach my job and my career as a journalist, is to not only be there to inform of what's happening, like you were saying, but also I think it's important for people to connect to people in these faraway lands that, at first glance, we have nothing in common, right? These are the bad guys operating in far distant lands or maybe sometimes around us, but they're considered the bad people, uh, the people that we have nothing in common with. But if you actually sit down with them and listen to their stories, and this is the big shocker of this show, and I think it rubs people the w- wrong way sometimes when you admit or, or when somebody tells you that, uh, "Look, actually there is not a lot that, m- differentiates you from the guy smuggling cocaine out of the Peru, the Rain Valley in Peru. Uh, you both have the same, are motivated by the same goals, which is, you know, happiness, uh, an opportunity in life, a chance for, you know, to reach your dreams." Um, and unless you actually look at it this way and start realizing that that is more often than not the case, of course there's a lot of bad people there doing it for greed and solely greed. That also happens, and I spent a lot of time with those people as well. But unless you start understanding sort of the root causes of what leads people into these lives, you're never going to be able to address black markets.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       Well, you really did a fantastic job of getting close to these people and talking to them. Like, you know, they were talking about their family. They were talking about their children. Um, the one guy who was the chemist who wants to get out because he wants to go to school and like-

   26. MZMariana van Zeller4:54

       Oh, god, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:54

       ... "This is my last year."

   28. MZMariana van Zeller4:56

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:56

       And it's, it's, uh, it's horrible.

3. 4:58 – 7:01

   Humanizing the cocaine supply chain in Peru: farmers, teens, and the ‘mochileros’

   1. MZMariana van Zeller4:58

      Yeah, that story alone, we spent the night with these mochileros, these backpackers, teenagers who carry the loads of cocaine on their back out of the valley, and spending time with them and, uh, you know, really dangerous work. They tell us stories about how they hike for days on end out of the Amazon, uh, the Rain Valley, um, to a place where then it's sent out into, outside of the country to Europe and to the United States. And you spend time with these guys and you listen to them and, and, and it's incredibly dangerous work too. They've seen their best friends being killed in front of them. And I asked them, "So, why would you ever wanna do something like this?" You know? Q- and he's like, "Look, very simple. I grew up in a very poor family. I always wanted to go to college. I knew that the only job opportunities, the whole economy is essentially sustained by the growing of coca leaves, production of cocaine, and smuggling of cocaine. So, the only job opportunity here I had was this." And I asked him, "Well, why do you wanna go to college so badly?" Perhaps a stupid question, but, uh, he said, you know, "Because I wanna be a dentist." And I said, "Why a dentist?" "'Cause I want to m- make, make people smile."

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:00

      Wow.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller6:01

      And this just is like, these are the moments that I think will really stay with me.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:05

      Yeah. And it, and it was so genuine, like the, the experience was so raw, like all of it, from showing the families growing the coca leaves-

   5. MZMariana van Zeller6:14

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:14

      ... and I learned something from it. I always assumed that it was the organized crime cartels that were growing the coca leaves.... but no, it's these families, these very-

   7. MZMariana van Zeller6:25

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      ... poor families-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller6:26

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:26

       ... that are growing these coca leaves and drying them out by the road-

   11. MZMariana van Zeller6:31

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       ... where everyone can see.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller6:32

       Yep.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       So you have children playing. You have these very poor people that are growing this, this crop. And the vast majority of it is sold to the cartels, and they, they're not selling it for a lot of money either.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller6:48

       No, not at all. It's never the people at the bottom that are making money. It's always the people at the top.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:53

       But it's crazy that these are the people that are growing it.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller6:55

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:55

       Like ...

   19. MZMariana van Zeller6:56

       And this whole valley has been growing coca for thousands of years. It's what they do.

4. 7:01 – 10:35

   Coca leaf vs. cocaine: culture, legality, and why Mariana avoids drugs

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:01

      And it's also crazy that the thing itself, the coca leaf, like, there's actually been people that have made a really good argument that not only should that stuff be legal, but it's probably good for you.

   2. MZMariana van Zeller7:13

      Yeah, the coca leaf a lot if ... A- alone, if it is not, uh, made into cocaine, it's, uh, if you ... They chew it, you know. You go to the Andes and all around, they actually chew the coca leaf. I had an opportunity to do that. There was a moment where one of the ... I mean, you do it, it helps you with al- high altitude sickness, and it helps you gain more an- energy. And, uh, when we were filming with a group, they actually (laughs) wanted me to try some. I had tried some before, but I did it as, as well then. And, uh, and it tastes, it's actually ... It doesn't taste ... It's sa- it kind of tastes like a leaf, quite frankly. (laughs) Uh, but you do feel a little bit more energy. And there's nothing, there's nothing illegal about that, by the way. That's completely something that's been done, they've been ... It's been the tradition in this area for, you know, thousands of years.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:55

      Mm. And when you did it, like, what ... It gave you energy? Like, what did it feel like?

   4. MZMariana van Zeller8:00

      It's not like a bump of cocaine.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:02

      Have you done a bump of cocaine?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller8:02

      I actually have not. You know, it's so funny-

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      No?

   8. MZMariana van Zeller8:04

      ... beca- I spent my entire life reporting on drugs and dr- the drug trade, and I am s- and I'm, you know, people, you know, like, who do crazy shit for a living, (laughs) uh, and yet I am terrified of drugs. I think partly because I've seen how they are done, um.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:18

      Well, after the OxyContin Express and seeing how many people's lives were destroyed by a legal drug, uh, I could, I could imagine why you'd want to avoid the ones that are illegal. I've never done coke either. That's what I'm asking.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller8:30

       Oh, you haven't?

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:31

       No, never. No.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller8:32

       Oh, I think we're some of the only two people. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:34

       I took tea once, mate de coca tea.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller8:37

       Uh-huh. Yes.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:38

       Have you ever had that?

   16. MZMariana van Zeller8:38

       Made with coca leaves, yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       Yeah, and I couldn't shut the fuck up.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller8:41

       Really? (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       Which is a problem already. (laughs)

   20. MZMariana van Zeller8:42

       That's a problem with me too.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:44

       (laughs)

   22. MZMariana van Zeller8:44

       That's exactly my problem, is that I am high energy all the time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:47

       Yeah.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller8:48

       If I were to do cocaine, then I don't think anyone could take me.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       Exactly. (laughs)

   26. MZMariana van Zeller8:51

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:52

       Exactly. I, I ... My friend Jimmy in high school when we were, uh, when we were-

   28. MZMariana van Zeller8:56

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       ... young, uh, one of his buddies was, uh, was selling coke. And, uh, and he go ... He just looked at me and he goes, "You should never do this stuff."

   30. MZMariana van Zeller9:03

       (laughs)
5. 10:35 – 11:50

   Portugal’s decriminalization & the case against the “war on drugs” model

   1. MZMariana van Zeller10:35

      (laughs) No. You know it's one of the only countries in the world-

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:37

      Yeah.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller10:37

      ... that was the first one to decriminalize drugs.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:39

      With spectacular results.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller10:40

      Spectacular results.

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:41

      Yeah, that's, it's really, uh, that was one of the things that I wanted to bring up with you, uh, 'cause it's so, it's such a complicated issue, uh, drugs. And it's so sad to see from y- your program to see these poor farmers to these kids who are the chemists who are putting it together and then carrying it out-

   7. MZMariana van Zeller11:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:02

      ... on the backpack. And one of the chemists was actually one of the guys who was actually carrying it on his back too-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller11:06

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:06

       ... which is even crazier.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller11:07

       Yeah. And he jumped into the car the first night that we got access to this illicit lab, where we'd been trying for so long to get this access. And suddenly we're driving in the middle of the night to go up to this area where we're supposed to meet him. And, uh, suddenly the, the g- guy driving our car, this, our guide basically stops the car, the door opens, this guy jumps in, and they're speaking in Spanish. And I interrupt and I say, "What's, what's happening? Who are you?" (laughs) You know, our car has all our gear and my team. And he's like, "Oh, sorry, sorry. Hi, I'm the chemist." (laughs) I say, "What?" "I'm the one who's going to take you down to the, to my cocaine lab."

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       Is the guy who's driving, is his name Ceviche?

   13. MZMariana van Zeller11:43

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:43

       That's his real name?

   15. MZMariana van Zeller11:44

       Ceviche. Yeah, that is his-

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:44

       Isn't that weird?

   17. MZMariana van Zeller11:45

       I mean, that's his nickname, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:46

       Oh, like Taco.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller11:47

       Yeah, Taco. Yes. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       Yeah. I have a friend Dan who's named, his nickname's Taco.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller11:50

       Yeah.

6. 11:50 – 34:36

   Access journalism ethics: why sources talk, and why “humanizing” gets backlash

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:50

      Um, so when you first started to, uh, put this show together-

   2. MZMariana van Zeller11:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:56

      ... how did you make these connections? Like, how do you ...How do you do that-

   4. MZMariana van Zeller12:01

      Yeah. It's-

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:01

      ... without revealing sources?

   6. MZMariana van Zeller12:03

      Yeah, for sure. It's been d- I've been doing it for over 15 years, right? So I've been working in the underworld and black markets almost my whole career as a journalist. So I have connections, um, uh, in a lot of places. But mostly, we really rely a lot on local journalists. They're really sort of the unsung heroes of, uh, our- our industry. Um, they usually don't get the credit. Um, and they're usually the ones that have the most, uh, to lose if something goes wrong. So we take- we protect our- the people that talk to us, our sources. We take that very seriously. We disguise their faces. We make sure they're okay with what they look like. We change their voices. We don't reveal locations. I mean, it's a lot of work put into making absolutely sure that no one, you know, that law enforcement is going- isn't going to find them. And that's because that's what you do as a journalist. You are there to witness, and to report and inform. Um...

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:52

      What is their motivation to help you?

   8. MZMariana van Zeller12:54

      I think it's three reasons. Uh, one is ego. Um, these are some of the best, uh, the best at what they do, you know, the best... We filmed with one of the best, uh, guys at finishing fake US dollars in Peru. He was, by hand, ha- you know, note by note, uh, finishing, uh, each single one of them to make it look and smell and feel and taste like a real, uh, dollar. Um, and he's the best at what he does, and nobody knows what he does. His family doesn't know. And so th- we give them opportunity to disguise their identity and to sort of boast and talk about what they're passionate about. Um, you know, the same with the chemists. The same with the Sinaloa chemist that we filmed making fentanyl in front of us. Um, so I think partly it's that. Then it's impunity. In a lot of these parts of the world, uh, where we filmed, there's complete impunity. Um, so they don't see really a downside to talking to an international recognized name like N- NatGeo. And there's trust there as well. And then lastly, and I think more surprising for me, but I think it's the biggest amount, the biggest reason we were given constantly, is this idea that they know they're considered the bad people. Um, they know they're-

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:02

      Mm.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller14:02

       ... sort of, you know, the most shunned people in our society, and we're giving them an opportunity to tell their story, um, and how... You know, people really want others to know, to- to know why they fall into a life of crime or why they become outlaws. Um, and that, you know, it's a- was a really big goal for me in this documentary, was to even, again, the people that are more- that we think have nothing in common with us actually do. Um, and no matter how far you travel into the fringes of our society, that you can still find people that are redeemable and relatable.

   11. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       We're just lucky if we live here. We're just lucky. You're just lucky that you were born in, you know, if you live in Austin, you're lucky you were born here. If you live in LA or San Francisco, you're lucky. If you're born in Chicago, you're lucky.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller14:52

       Absolutely.

   13. JRJoe Rogan14:53

       It's just-

   14. MZMariana van Zeller14:53

       I see that all the time.

   15. JRJoe Rogan14:54

       Yeah.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller14:54

       We won the lottery ticket, and I don't think-

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:55

       Yeah.

   18. MZMariana van Zeller14:56

       ... most people, if you don't travel and you don't experience this, uh, like I've been privileged to, I don't think we realize that.

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:02

       Well-

   20. MZMariana van Zeller15:02

       We're not grateful enough for that.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:04

       I think it needs to be shown in a, like, the w- what you showed in that cocaine episode. You see these people, you see these children playing on that car and, you know, and hanging out by these coca leaves that are being dried out, and you realize like, oh, this is- this is not what I thought it was. This isn't, you know, some movie where you got these bad guys that are, you know, guarding the farm with machine guns. Like th-

   22. MZMariana van Zeller15:27

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       ... this is not it.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller15:28

       No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       Like, you- you just have poor farmers.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller15:30

       Yeah, I mean, that exists too. (laughs) You know, we filmed a lot of-

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       Yeah, I'm sure.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller15:33

       ... armed guards, uh, protecting their money and their operations as- as well. Um, but I would say that in the vast majority of cases, it really is the lack of opportunities. I really don't believe that anyone is born one day and decides, "Hey, you know, what I want to do is, uh, I want to become a sicario for the Sinaloa cartel and be killed when I'm 25 years old. Uh, I want to kill people and then, um, be killed when I'm 25," which happens.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       The poverty was... It was obvious even in the people that were protecting their crops and everything. Like, they have poor- they have shitty old guns with, like, iron sights on them.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller16:10

       Mm-hmm.
7. 34:36 – 39:04

   Legal weed, illegal weed: California’s regulations and cartel grow ops

   1. MZMariana van Zeller34:36

      Yeah. You know, I spent a lot of time with law enforcement and, uh, you hear their stories and, you know, they're really out there on the front lines trying to make a difference, most of them. And y-... again and again you hear just how frustrating their job is because they know, uh, you know, that they're really not making a dent. Um, but I think it's also hard to admit in many ways because this is their lives and their livelihoods, um, that... a- if you talk to law enforcement. Even now, I actually just did a story for season two about weed, black market weed in, in California, and, uh, and even now, you know, they will tell you that that's... they think that, uh, it shouldn't have been legalized, um, because, uh, they have a point. Black market weed has only exploded since legalization, but I don't think that not making it legal is... it's really about the regulations that are in place in California.

   2. JRJoe Rogan35:26

      Sounds like they're thinking like cops.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller35:27

      Yeah. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan35:28

      The, the, the real problem is, um, uh, my friend, John Norris, who's been on the podcast before, he is a game warden.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller35:34

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan35:35

      And he was, uh, h-... he got a job as a game warden because he loves the outdoors-

   7. MZMariana van Zeller35:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan35:39

      And he thought he was just gonna, like, check people's fishing licenses-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller35:42

      Mm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan35:42

       And things along those lines.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller35:43

       Oh, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan35:44

       And along the way, he started finding these d- grow ops on public land, and so his department became a tactical drug enforcement department to fight cartels who are illegally growing marijuana. And so they have, like, trained Belgian Malinois who a- attack these cartel, uh, they get shot at. He's lost members of his team. Like, they're like a tactical group now.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller36:10

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan36:10

       And he wrote a dr-... was it Hidden, Hidden War? Was that what the, uh... the book?We have it at the old studio.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller36:16

       We spent the summer actually filming that-

   16. JRJoe Rogan36:18

       It's... Yes.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller36:18

       ... those operations.

   18. JRJoe Rogan36:18

       Can you go more? Um-

   19. MZMariana van Zeller36:20

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan36:20

       ... it's crazy.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller36:21

       Yeah. It's crazy.

   22. JRJoe Rogan36:21

       And his take is that what happened was when they made marijuana legal-

   23. MZMariana van Zeller36:27

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan36:28

       ... what they did was they made growing it illegally a misdemeanor. So, in most of the country, marijuana is still illegal, in most states, right? So, if you have 50 states, how many states, like 19 or something where it's legal? How many states is it legal? Uh, like 80%. 80% of all of the marijuana supplied to the states where it's illegal is grown in California, and it's grown on public land, and it's grown by the cartels. So, they move these guys in and, and they're incredibly industrious. I mean, you want to talk about hardworking dudes. These guys walk in like 10, 15 miles into public land with all the equipment on their back.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller37:07

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan37:07

       Like, their camp, they, they have, like, the hoses and, and they take the water, they create their own dams and take the water from these creeks, and they run it into their grow ops. That's how they found it. They thought that, like, a farmer was, uh, uh, was channeling the river or a creek away from, uh, the, these, uh, steelhead and salmon fisheries. And it turned out it was, like, the cartel.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller37:31

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan37:31

       And like, so they followed the c-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller37:32

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       ... the dry creek up into this, like-
8. 39:04 – 42:48

   Inside synthetic drug markets: meth in Austin and fentanyl ‘Walter White’ chemists

   1. MZMariana van Zeller39:04

      Yeah, it's so i- so another ep- episode that we filmed recently was here in Austin. It was actually meth, uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan39:09

      Meth is in Austin?

   3. MZMariana van Zeller39:10

      Yes, and we were-

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:11

      Austin's got a meth problem.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller39:12

      ... we dr- on my way driving here to the show, w- I passed by the place where I had filmed just three weeks ago actually, this, uh, this guy in his hotel room, a dealer, a meth dealer, but he was washing... One of the things he did before he started getting clients, and the clients are not the people that you think are meth users at all, by the way. We filmed, we interviewed a lawyer, we interviewed a mom with kids at home, it was, uh, uh, an entrepreneur, not at all the people that you think are meth users. And this guy, uh, before he started, he's washing the meth, um, and that's because he says he prides himself on selling good quality meth, but he had purchased it from (laughs) Mexico and he wasn't sure about the quality, so he washes it. I can't remember what it is, the product that he puts in, but it's to see all the other stuff that comes out. And, uh, and him, you know, you can s- and then you can see just sort of all this other chemicals that are put in there and you sort of realize, and when I was filming in the, the cocaine lab, the same thing, and the fentanyl lab too. The amount of shit that goes into these drugs, if that alone is not (laughs) gonna dissuade you from, from doing them is... Yeah. It's chemicals, it's gasoline, it's... yeah, lime.

   6. JRJoe Rogan40:19

      (gasps)

   7. MZMariana van Zeller40:19

      Lime is something that goes-

   8. JRJoe Rogan40:20

      Lime.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller40:20

      ... into a lot of these.

   10. JRJoe Rogan40:21

       Oh!

   11. MZMariana van Zeller40:21

       You know? Yeah. It's-

   12. JRJoe Rogan40:22

       They use lime to get rid of bodies.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller40:25

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan40:25

       Ugh.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller40:26

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan40:27

       The, this, um, meth guy, um, was he a big Breaking Bad fan? Was he a big Bryan Cranston fan? Wanted to-

   17. MZMariana van Zeller40:34

       He was-

   18. JRJoe Rogan40:34

       Wanna be the guy?

   19. MZMariana van Zeller40:35

       ... he was actually, uh, much younger. I don't, mm, sure. You know one guy that we filmed for the fentanyl episode? It was a, a cartel chemist, so this, this guy was a bioengineer, um, and incredibly smart and knowledgeable, and we met him in this abandoned location where he's basically making fentanyl and pressing it into the M30 pills, which are fake. Um, it goes round back to the beginning of the opiate crisis 'cause they make them to look like OxyContin, like the 30 milligram pills that Purdue Pharma and OxyContin have.

   20. JRJoe Rogan41:06

       Ah!

   21. MZMariana van Zeller41:06

       And so, but it's pure fentanyl essentially, and uh, and they're becoming really popular on the streets of America and part of, you know, really deadly stuff. And so we saw him making it, and you never know with these guys. Like I spent time in some of these illicit labs where you kind of get a sense that shit could go wrong very fast because they have no idea what they're dealing with, and these are very potent chemicals. But in this case, you know, it's not easy to make. I mean, it, it is 'cause it's cheap and once you know how to do it, you know how to do it, but it's, you know, I can't show up and try to make that b- the thing, the whole thing could explode just because the chemicals are so potent. And yet, here he was and I, we were wearing our hazmat suits and our masks and everything, and I started talking to him and he was, I mean, I suddenly thought I was talking to (laughs) Walter White from Breaking Bad.

   22. JRJoe Rogan41:51

       Oh!

   23. MZMariana van Zeller41:51

       He was exactly that, like a, a geek when it came to chemistry and had always loved chemistry and, you know, had worked in chemistry for a while and then was approached by the Sinaloa cartel and they needed a guy who knew how to do it- how to make this stuff.

   24. JRJoe Rogan42:04

       Wow.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller42:05

       And, and he's decided, "Why not? I can make a lot more money making this," and now he's like one of the biggest chemists for the Sinaloa cartel.

   26. JRJoe Rogan42:12

       (sighs)

   27. MZMariana van Zeller42:12

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan42:13

       So, when you talk to the people that did the meth-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller42:17

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan42:17

       ... do they have a reason...... the, the people that, that actually consume it. When you said you talked to-
9. 42:48 – 45:52

   Cognitive enhancers & modern stimulants: Provigil/Nuvigil vs. Adderall

   1. JRJoe Rogan42:48

      Um, have you done Adderall?

   2. MZMariana van Zeller42:51

      I have not.

   3. JRJoe Rogan42:52

      Good for you.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller42:53

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan42:53

      You and I together. Give me some knuckles, woman.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller42:55

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan42:55

      All right. (laughs)

   8. MZMariana van Zeller42:56

      You haven't either?

   9. JRJoe Rogan42:57

      Uh, no, but that's a tempting one. People keep telling me how amazing it is for, like, just cleaning your house.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller43:01

       Is it really?

   11. JRJoe Rogan43:02

       Yeah.

   12. MZMariana van Zeller43:02

       That you just get, like, on a-

   13. JRJoe Rogan43:03

       Oh, my God. Yeah. Jamie, you've, you've, uh, perhaps participated in some, uh-

   14. NANarrator43:06

       I've take- taken it twice, but I've done Provigil now twice.

   15. JRJoe Rogan43:09

       Mm.

   16. NANarrator43:10

       Not the same in any way, shape, or form.

   17. JRJoe Rogan43:12

       No, Provigil is a, I have done Provigil.

   18. NANarrator43:14

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan43:14

       And I've done Nuvigil too. Nuvigil's another-

   20. MZMariana van Zeller43:17

       What's that?

   21. JRJoe Rogan43:17

       It's, it's a, a drug that... Now, this is, I might be wrong about this, so we might have to Google this. I believe it was created as a performance-enhancing drug.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller43:27

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan43:27

       But then they said, "Well, you can't just sell it as a performance-enhancing drug." As a cognitive enhancer, and I do believe it has some cognitive boosting, like proven cognitive boosting functions. But I think they decided to sell it as a, a narcolepsy drug a- as a, when they found out that it keeps people awake. Um, it's amazing for road trips.

   24. MZMariana van Zeller43:45

       Mm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan43:46

       This is what I love it for. Like, if I'm dri- like, if I used to drive to San Diego to do a gig, and, uh, the gig would be over at like midnight. I'm like, "Fuck it, I wanna be home." And then I would drive two hours. Like, around an hour in, you start getting-

   26. MZMariana van Zeller43:56

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan43:56

       ... that road sleepiness.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller43:58

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan43:58

       With Provigil, I'm listening to books on tape. I'm fucking howling at the moon. Like, I'm wide awake, but I'm not s- on speed.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller44:06

       Mm-hmm.
10. 45:52 – 1:06:26

    Steroids underground: bodybuilding culture, ‘Tony Huge,’ and elite-sport hypocrisy

    1. MZMariana van Zeller45:52

       Wait, how, how do you stand on steroids, by the way? What's your... 'Cause one of our episodes was about steroids.

    2. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       I think that steroids are many, there's, there's a lot of different things that are legal now.

    3. MZMariana van Zeller46:05

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       In terms of like, you can get testosterone replacement therapy, hormone replacement therapy, and they basically give you the vial, right?

    5. MZMariana van Zeller46:12

       But only if you have low levels of those, of testosterone, right?

    6. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       Mm...

    7. MZMariana van Zeller46:17

       Or can you just-

    8. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       You can just kinda get it. And you can get low levels-

    9. MZMariana van Zeller46:20

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JRJoe Rogan46:21

        ... pretty easy.

    11. MZMariana van Zeller46:21

        Mm.

    12. JRJoe Rogan46:21

        All you have to do, like, if you want low levels, folks out there, this is not my advice.

    13. MZMariana van Zeller46:25

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan46:25

        But I'm just telling you a fact. All you have to do is eat a massive meal and then get your blood taken.

    15. MZMariana van Zeller46:30

        Huh.

    16. JRJoe Rogan46:30

        Because if you wanna take your blood, um, like, the idea is they take your blood when you're fasting.

    17. MZMariana van Zeller46:35

        Hm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan46:35

        Right? So you're supposed to fast. I, I think it's 10 hours before your blood work. The reason for that is then your hormone levels will, you know, they'll, they'll level out. They'll be normal. If you cra- like that feeling that you get when you take, have a massive meal-

    19. MZMariana van Zeller46:50

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    20. JRJoe Rogan46:50

        ... especially like high carbohydrate, high sugar. Like, if you eat like three Big Macs and fries and a, and a, a large Coke, you'll be like grr, boom.

    21. MZMariana van Zeller47:00

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan47:01

        That feeling, get your blood done right then. You will show very low hormone levels. You'll show low growth hormone. You'll show low testosterone.

    23. MZMariana van Zeller47:09

        Huh.

    24. JRJoe Rogan47:09

        You'll show low everything.

    25. MZMariana van Zeller47:10

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan47:10

        Yeah. Another thing is when people have done steroids. See, I know about this initially because of the UFC. And the UFC had a, uh, there was a testost- a TUE, testosterone use exemption. And that testosterone use exemption allowed people to replace their hormones if they showed low levels of hormones. So, testosterone replacement therapy-

    27. MZMariana van Zeller47:32

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan47:32

        ... was for people that had some sort of a condition that would, uh, allow the doctor to prescribe testosterone for them.

    29. MZMariana van Zeller47:39

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan47:39

        The problem with that is a lot of the people that had low testosterone had low testosterone because they were taking steroids.
11. 1:06:26 – 1:10:32

    The future of performance enhancement: CRISPR, myostatin mutations, and designer athletes

    1. MZMariana van Zeller1:06:26

       (laughs)

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:06:26

       Uh, it's, I'm torn. Here's, here's my, my real feeling-... um, that this is... We're trying to stick our finger in a well-

    3. MZMariana van Zeller1:06:34

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:06:34

       ... or in a, a dam rather, that has a, a bunch of holes and the holes are gonna increase. There's gonna be more and more holes, and then you're gonna have genetic engineering.

    5. MZMariana van Zeller1:06:41

       Mm-hmm. Hmm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:06:42

       And I think we are maybe one, two generat- generations away from CRISPR kids-

    7. MZMariana van Zeller1:06:47

       Okay.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:06:47

       ... fighting in MMA. Uh, uh, kids with perfect genes.

    9. MZMariana van Zeller1:06:50

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:06:50

        Kids that when... Uh, like, say if they engineer, uh, myostatin inhibitors into children. You know what myostatin inhibitors are? Myostatin inhibitors are... Uh, uh, it's... It, it happens accidentally with animals sometimes, sometimes with cows, but commonly with whippets for some strange reason.

    11. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:07

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:07:07

        When they breed whippets, sometimes they have this weird, uh, error in their genes-

    13. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:13

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:07:13

        ... and they develop, uh, they have myostatin inhibitors in, in their genes. And their, their bo-... Myostatin inhibitors, apparently what it does is it stops your body's, like, regulation of how much muscle you can grow.

    15. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:26

        Oh, wow.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:07:27

        So you have whippets that don't even look like real animals.

    17. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:30

        Mm-hmm. All right.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

        If you see them, you'll think they're photoshopped. You see them digi-... That's a whippet.

    19. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:34

        Oh, my God.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:07:34

        That's a myostatin inhibitor whippet. Now, a normal whippet is the one on the right.

    21. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:37

        Whoa.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:07:38

        Yeah. So, they grow massive-

    23. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:41

        (gasps) .

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:07:41

        ... massive muscles.

    25. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:43

        Oh, wow.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:07:43

        And they literally look like, like, like a Hulk dog.

    27. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:47

        Mm. Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:07:47

        Like someone gave a dog some kind of crazy drug.

    29. MZMariana van Zeller1:07:49

        Oh, my God. And then there's the cow over there too.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:07:51

        Yeah. That's a, that's a cow that also has, uh, myostatin inhibitors.

Episode duration: 2:08:19