Joe Rogan Experience #1588 - Lawrence Wright

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. LWLawrence Wright0:02

      (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Well, uh, first of all, a pleasure. I- I've enjoyed your work-

   3. LWLawrence Wright0:17

      Thank you so much.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      ... tremendously. I, I'm a gigantic fear, uh, fan of, uh, Going Clear in particular.

   5. LWLawrence Wright0:22

      Oh, really? I see.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Yeah, I read the book and-

   7. LWLawrence Wright0:23

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      ... watched the, the HBO documentary on it.

   9. LWLawrence Wright0:26

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Uh, o-one of the most bonkers things in our culture today.

   11. LWLawrence Wright0:30

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       I mean, amazing that it's, that Scientology is, like, still a th- I mean, I, I passed by the Church of Scientology here just the other day. I was like-

   13. LWLawrence Wright0:38

       Oh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       ... "Huh, still works." (laughs)

   15. LWLawrence Wright0:40

       Yeah. (laughs) They, they've just moved it. I ... When the documentary came out, um, some woman had just gone to see it at the movie theater in the, in the, uh, t- it was on The Drag, you know, on Guadalupe across from, um, the university, and she drove her car through the plate glass windows of the Scientology building and she didn't stop there. She drove around the lobby a little bit knocking over bookshelves and stuff, so-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       (laughs)

   17. LWLawrence Wright1:06

       ... (laughs) she's ... I had to issue a statement deploring violence in any form.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Was she a, a victim of it? Or ...

   19. LWLawrence Wright1:13

       No. She had just seen the documentary and she was really worked up.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Wow.

   21. LWLawrence Wright1:17

       So ...

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       That's a hype t- She might have some other issues.

   23. LWLawrence Wright1:19

       Yeah, she might. (laughs) Yeah. Definitely. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       (laughs) Maybe Scientology could've helped her, Iro- ... ironically.

   25. LWLawrence Wright1:23

       Yeah, could've been. There might've been a course for that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Well, this ... It's a weird thing when you see so many people that are so successful that are Scientologists. At least, you used to see that. I had a neighbor who was one of the nicest guys and he was a great guy, he was, uh ... in my old neighborhood, and he was a Scientologist-

   27. LWLawrence Wright1:39

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       ... and I found out in the most bizarre way because, uh, there was a, a piece of land that was for sale and he was talking about this piece of land, about possibly purchasing it, but, uh, he was gonna have to put it off because he needed $50,000 because his wife was going clear.

   29. LWLawrence Wright1:57

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       And it was like, like a scene in a movie where the record skips. Rrrr.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) Wow. …

   1. LWLawrence Wright15:00

      Old Order. Uh, they don't have, uh, uh, they don't have, uh, eaves on their buildings. You know, no, uh, they don't use electrical power at all. And, you know, they're very rigid about that. No pictures on the ce- walls and so on. Uh, whereas if you go up the grade, when you finally graduate out of the Amish, you get into the Mennonite community. Then they'll start driving cars, you know? But, uh, the most progressive Amish would use tractors only for tractor power. They wouldn't use them in the fields, but they'd use them to help load the hay in the barn. So, but if you're, if you're a yellow buggy and your daughter marries a white buggy, you'll never speak to her again and you're living in the same community.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:47

      (laughs) Wow.

   3. LWLawrence Wright15:48

      And that's not any different from Scientology.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. LWLawrence Wright15:51

      But it i- The reason they do that is to enforce the boundaries of their community. And I think another, another significant part of this is that we look at Scientology and, you know, Mormonism and s- and you might laugh at their, you know, the, the theological construct that their religion is built upon. I think the crazier it sounds, then, uh, you, you, you have to crawl over this huge wall of doubt and misgivings to accept that Xenu, this ruler of, you know, 75 million years ago, you know, sent a bunch of Thetans to Earth in, you know, what looked like DC8s and dropped them into volcanoes where they were exploded by a hydrogen bomb, and their spirits were caught by a net, and then they were set in front of a 3D movie theater, and...

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      (laughs)

   7. LWLawrence Wright16:49

      It takes a lot to swallow that, right? But if you do, if you, uh, at least if you say you do, you go over the wall and you go join a community that's very supportive. And, you know, you have to say, if somebody, "Do you really believe that shit?" "Oh, yes, we believe this." You're reinforcing-

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:10

      Yeah.

   9. LWLawrence Wright17:10

      ... your affiliation with the community. And I think people have a hunger, especially in our time, you know, for strong communities.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, we also like questions to be answered even if those answers don't make sense 'cause it removes this, this b- bizarre, th- like, there's a, there's an existential angst to just being alive, just being on a planet that's hurling through the universe. Above us is stars and space, and there's so many questions-

   11. LWLawrence Wright17:46

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:47

       ... and we have a finite lifespan. There's, if you really...... start thinking about it, you can kinda freak out.

   13. LWLawrence Wright17:53

       Sure.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:53

       And if it's really open-ended, if you really don't know what life is, if we really were single-celled organisms that became multi-celled organisms, and we used to be a shrew, and the shrew evolved and eventually became a human being, and we don't even know exactly how all these steps happened, and here we are today. And you don't know w- where it's going, and i- is humanity even gonna make it? And you're not gonna make it, no matter what humanity, you ... I- if humanity dies off, you have a finite lifespan. If you're lucky, you live to be 100. And all those questions are so confusing and scary. And if someone comes along and says, "We have all the answers. Put your mind at ease. We have Xenu."

   15. LWLawrence Wright18:32

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:33

       "And Xenu has created you, and you got dropped off in a volcano, and you're here today. And all you have to do is follow these steps, and you will be free of all the confusion, and all the emotional stress, and the chaos this is life, that this life has. You don't need psychiatric medication."

   17. LWLawrence Wright18:50

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:50

       "You don't need anything. You need us."

   19. LWLawrence Wright18:53

       And also, they offer the prospect of eternal life.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:56

       Yeah.

   21. LWLawrence Wright18:57

       You know? 'Cause, you know, the idea is that, you know, you are not Joe Rogan, you are a Thetan.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. LWLawrence Wright19:05

       And you are an eternal being, and you incarnate in different bodies, you know, repeatedly. And so you, you ... They will help you discover your past lives, and they'll also help you, you know, ad- save civilization. So you have a noble purpose and you have the assurance that if you die, you'll keep going, and that's good news. So if, you know ... There's a, there's a reluctance to part with the, the good news that a lot of religions have to offer, that ...

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:37

       I had this conversation recently with a friend. We were talking about living forever. And they were like, "I wouldn't wanna live forever." I was like, "Well, do you wanna die now?" And they're like, "No."

   25. LWLawrence Wright19:46

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       And I said, "Well, do you enjoy life?" "Yes." "Well, I enjoy life. I'm having a great time. Why would you want it to end?" Like, if, if you found out that life right now, like, Lawrence Wright, Jamie Vernon, and I sitting here having a conversation, that this is, this is life, and this just keeps going, it keeps going forever. You meet new people, you go to dinner, you go to see a concert one day when the COVID's up, but it just keeps going. Would you be okay with that? Or do you need an end?

   27. LWLawrence Wright20:13

       Well, actually, Joe, I started a group called the Im- Immortality Working Group, and, um ... 'Cause I'm, I'm, I'm on the side of living as long as possible. Now, I don't wanna be decrepit.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:25

       Yeah.

   29. LWLawrence Wright20:25

       You know? There, there are, you know, there are things about the possibilities of the end that are pretty awful, and I don't wanna endure them.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:35

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   (laughs) …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      'cause I, I didn't know what Judaism was. I he- I was like, "Wait a minute, there's another religion?"

   2. LWLawrence Wright30:05

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      I remember being, like, six years old when this was going on. And the other thing was going to Catholic school.

   4. LWLawrence Wright30:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      D- I did one year in Catholic school and that, that cured me more than anything.

   6. LWLawrence Wright30:14

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:14

      I was like, "There is no fucking way these ladies are talking to God."

   8. LWLawrence Wright30:16

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Like, there's no ... If there's a God out there, there's no way he wants these crazy bitches running the show. Like, this is mad. These are angry, crazy people. They're, they're, they're sadists.

   10. LWLawrence Wright30:26

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       You know, torture little kids and scream at you and tell you you're gonna sit on a nail in the closet and you're gonna stay here, you're never going home and, like, whoo. And, uh, that ... I ... And my parents got divorced when I was very y- they split up when I was about five years old, so that made me very religious 'cause I felt like I needed something to, like ... some stability and that stability when I was a small child was God.

   12. LWLawrence Wright30:47

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       You know? And so it was the Catholic Church, it was Catholicism s- ... And then going to Catholic school, I was actually excited about it. But then when my uncle was converting, I remember thinking, "Well, what do they believe? Well, he ... Is he gonna go to heaven? Like, is he-

   14. LWLawrence Wright31:00

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       ... still in? Is he still a part of the team? Like, what happens now? Like, this is bizarre."

   16. LWLawrence Wright31:05

       He just opted out.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Yeah. Well, uh, he went to their ... Well, th- do they have ... Their version of the afterlife is very different than ours.

   18. LWLawrence Wright31:13

       It's just not pronounced, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       Mm-hmm.

   20. LWLawrence Wright31:15

       And when, um ... I was very pious in my teenage years, so I've, I've ... I was a little late blooming, uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       What started that for you?

   22. LWLawrence Wright31:26

       Uh, I think there was an organization in, uh, it's still around called Young Life and, uh, it's sort of a, you know, uh, for ... It, it's, it's recui- it's a Protestant, mainly, uh, organization that recruits, you know, teenagers in high school. And for me it was a f- way of finding social acceptance, you know. I was not much of an athlete, uh, I was not popular and, uh ... But, you know, you could get into this organization and the way you advance in a religious organization is through piety. And (clears throat) I think that's what's really dangerous about religion. It's one thing to, you know, associate in the community and, uh, and f- enjoy the fellowship of other people that, you know, are searchers or, you know, you know, part of that environment. But if you wanna get ahead, uh, you believe it more strongly than the next person, and that allows you to advance up the ranks. And when that happens, when those pious people get control, then th- the rules start to harden. And, you know, that's what, you know, I think, uh, Scientology is a great example of that. But there's so many religions that are (laughs) exactly the same way and they start enforcing, you know ... They become doctrinaire. And a doctrinaire, being doctrinaire is their power, that's where they get their, you know ... People are afraid of them, they're afraid to contradict them because, you know, they have the Bible on their hand or they have the word of the Lord, you know, or, you know, it could be, you know, that you could talk in tongues or something like that.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       Mm-hmm.

   24. LWLawrence Wright33:09

       Well, you must be really spiritual, you're deeply into it. Uh, you know, whatever religion there is, there's always a route to power, and I think that's, uh, where they all f- often go off the tracks.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       Yeah. The, the, the levels, right? Like, showing someone that you're more pious and that you're ... you can, you can a- almost compete to get to the top, like, there's a, there's a ladder to climb.

   26. LWLawrence Wright33:35

       Yeah. And, you know, and Scientology had the brilliant idea of ritualizing that and monetizing it.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       Mm.

   28. LWLawrence Wright33:43

       So, you know, each of these steps that you take to the ... on the bridge to total freedom, as they call it, uh, you ... and you pay very dearly for it, but they're all a notch in your belt and, you know, the higher you go, the more you're valued.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:57

       That's so str- it's so strange that it doesn't occur to them that it was created by a science fiction author who wrote terrible books.

   30. LWLawrence Wright34:05

       Yeah, (laughs) they are. I mean, he, he has the ... It may not be true still, but he had the Guinness Book of World Records for the number of titles published, more than 1,000.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   McDojo Life. I- I'm…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      ... What is it? McDojo Life, I think.

   2. LWLawrence Wright45:02

      McDojo Life. I- I'm sorry. I keep forgetting the name. I have too many n- names of s-

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      McDojo Life.

   4. LWLawrence Wright45:08

      McDojo Life. And they document these people where, like, someone comes at them and they touch like this and the person, like, shakes and falls to the ground. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      So you have these students who are a part of this horse shit. They give into it and they ... I don't know if they believe it. I've never interviewed them. I don't know what's going on. But they will run at the person. The person will literally ... This, this master will put his hands up like this and they'll be paralyzed and they'll fall to the ground. And it's not one. There's thousands of them. They're all over the world.

   6. LWLawrence Wright45:37

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:37

      And you gotta wonder, like, what is happening? How is this so successful in so many different places? There's a thing that happens where someone becomes a part of one of these organizations and it gives them this sense of community and family and you have to give in to whatever the belief system is and the belief system is that this guy has a magic touch.

   8. LWLawrence Wright45:57

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:57

      And you go running at this guy and he ... (growls) And you, you almost, like, you, you don't want to buck the trend 'cause you, you want to keep coming back to this place that you call home so you give into it, you fall to the ground. But I've seen it all over the country. It's, it exists everywhere. I mean, it exists in the Asian communities, white communities, Black communities. It seems universal. It's, and it's very similar. The, the man has magic. He has a magic touch.

   10. LWLawrence Wright46:22

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:23

       And he knows some secret techniques. And it ... None of it makes ... Especially in martial arts traditionally, it's very hard to fake because you have to spar. So, when you're sparring, people try to test you so they find out how good you are. They're trying to figure out whether or not they can get through your defenses. But these people have figured out a way to brainwash someone in this, the weirdest culty way and by seeing that, and seeing how predominant it was and how it was so ... there were so many versions of it, it just makes sense that this would exist in Scientology or Moonies or, you know, fill in the blank. There's just ... There's a thing with human beings where we want to give in to the chief, we want to give into the, the, the main alpha, whatever-

   12. LWLawrence Wright47:09

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       ... for whatever reason. And you see it with, like, people politically as well. You see, like, people give into a political leader, whether it's Trump or whoever it is, like that person can do no wrong. That is their, that is their person and anything that says anything different is, is lies and disinformation.

   14. LWLawrence Wright47:27

       Well, what you said made me think of one of the hardest stories I ever did. (clears throat) I did a, an article for The New Yorker about the sons of Jim Jones.

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:38

       Oof.

   16. LWLawrence Wright47:39

       And, uh, not everybody died in Jonestown. Uh, he had three sons, two of 'em were adopted, and they were playing a basketball tournament in Georgetown, Giana- Guyana, and, um ... This, this story took place when I ... You remember the Branch Davidians?

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:58

       Yeah.

   18. LWLawrence Wright47:59

       Now that you're a Texan.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:00

       Yeah.

   20. LWLawrence Wright48:00

       You know, just up the road.

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:01

       Waco.

   22. LWLawrence Wright48:01

       (laughs) Yeah. Uh, my editor at The New Yorker at the time was Tina Brown and she, uh, she asked me to go, you know, write about the Branch Davidians.And I said, "Tina, there are more reporters than Branch Davidians up there right now." I couldn't... you know. But what... I was... had been watching the news coverage and just before... The place was called Rancho Apocalypse, which is-

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:25

       (laughs)

   24. LWLawrence Wright48:25

       ... turned out to be really appropriate. But they sent... Before the conflagration, they sent out, uh, a, a van with children, you know, who had grown up in this community. And these kids, you know, as they, they drove past the ATF and the FBI lines and then the media line, and you could see these children looking out the windows. They were leaving behind everybody they knew. They were leaving behind the only world they knew, and they were going into what? And I thought, "What happened to those kids? This must have happened... You know, what will happen to those, it must have happened to children elsewhere." And so I started doing some investigation and I found out that, you know, Jones had these three kids. Uh, three young boys. They were... Uh, well, they were young men. Um, and there was Jim Jr who was Black, uh, and then there was Steven and, uh, who was the natural son, and then there was Tim Jones. And, um, for whatever reason, they hadn't talked to anybody and they agreed to talk to me.

   25. JRJoe Rogan49:36

       Wow.

   26. LWLawrence Wright49:37

       Uh, and perhaps it had to do with, you know, the Branch Davidian thing that was going on at that same time.

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:44

       So this was in the early 90s?

   28. LWLawrence Wright49:46

       Yeah, it was 15 years after Jonestown. It was, uh, actually almost exactly 15 years. And, uh, there's a cemetery in Oakland where many of, most of the 900 bodies were buried. And there's... They took a earth mover and, and took a hill down, you know, half of a hill, and then they stacked all the caskets up and covered it again. But it still has this distortion and you can see, you know, what remained of the, the, the Jonestown followers. But it was interesting to me that the people who joined the Jones cult were all good people. They were all... You know, it was started in Indianapolis and then it moved to the Bay Area. And they were largely a, uh, you know, largely Black. Uh, Jones was, uh, very, very progressive, you know, on race, uh, and, uh... But, you know, a lot of, uh, good-hearted people involved in it. And he was a, a big figure in San Francisco at the time, politically. You know, his, his support was sought after. You know, he was admired as a, a community leader. But he was totally crazy and paranoid and suddenly decided he had to remove the entire group. And you can't tell your family, you know, can't tell anybody. You were... You're gonna... Just as... You know." S- He sent his sons down to Guyana to clear the jungle so they could make this village and, um... And then overnight, they move, you know, nearly 1,000 people to South America and leaving behind all their friends, their jobs, and stuff like that. One day, you know, they've, they've been, you know (laughs) , uh, removed. They've been, uh, raptured, you know, off to South America. And so I was interested, you know, that, you know, in learning more about it, but, uh, these, these c- you know, young men were totally haunted. But you would, you would certainly relate to Tim Jones. He was physically one of the, uh... You know, very powerful. You know, he, he curled, you know, 100 pounds with either hand, you know. He... But he couldn't, he couldn't get on an elevator. Uh, the last time he tried to do an airplane flight, I mean, this has been years ago, I don't know if it's changed for him now, but he was... He made the airplane turn around and drop him off at the gate-

   29. JRJoe Rogan52:28

       (laughs)

   30. LWLawrence Wright52:28

       ... uh, which is hard to do. But when you're, you know, as physically overpowering as Tim was, you know, he's, uh, he's kind of a formidable figure. And, um-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Yeah. It's, um... What…

   1. LWLawrence Wright1:00:00

      the Middle East is covered with such places.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

      Yeah. It's, um... What do you... I mean, what is it about people where this pops up? Like, what, what, what things have to be in place where someone can create some sort of an environment like that?... where they can decide that, that they, you know, they're the main ruler, that they're gonna create this in, this bizarre environment, set up these rules, and have all these people follow along with them.

   3. LWLawrence Wright1:00:34

      You know, I suppose that there are a lot of people that want to be that person and aren't. You know, they're probably all around us.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

      Yes.

   5. LWLawrence Wright1:00:43

      Uh, and, uh, you know, they just, uh, they just don't have the, the magic charisma to attract the followers. Uh, I think, you know, a lot of people that go into, you know, the ministry or, uh, into politics or something like that probably have a great deal of that gene. And if, uh, if they had the opportunity, they would maybe exercise it, you know, to a, a greater degree. But, you know, you have to have the consent of the followers.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

      Yeah.

   7. LWLawrence Wright1:01:13

      And if you don't get that kind of buy-in, then, uh, then you're not gonna have much of a cult.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

      But that's the w-

   9. LWLawrence Wright1:01:18

      Like, like your friends, the Jesus and Mary.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       (laughs)

   11. LWLawrence Wright1:01:21

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       Well, I think they've got a group.

   13. LWLawrence Wright1:01:22

       Do they really?

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:23

       Yeah, I think there's, there's a group-

   15. LWLawrence Wright1:01:24

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       ... that followed them. Yeah.

   17. LWLawrence Wright1:01:25

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       I mean, I don't know if they're still active, but it's, i- i- it's just a strange ... It's like a, you know, there's these, the, there's these natural patterns that you could find in nature, predator and prey and-

   19. LWLawrence Wright1:01:40

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

       ... and food sources and water and ... Or, there's th- those, these things that just reoccur over and over again, uh, despite the terrain, despite the, the geography, the part of the world. There's like, you can kind of, like, see the patterns. But that's one of the weirdest patterns with human beings, is the, the obviously fraudulent leader who makes up a bunch of crazy shit and pretends that he has some secret wisdom and that, you know, the gods or a god are on his side and gets all these people to follow them. And even in the Jonestown case, gets them to commit murder and suicide.

   21. LWLawrence Wright1:02:13

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

       Like, it's a, it's a strange pattern, whether it's the Heaven Gate guys who all kill themselves 'cause, you know, Hale-Bopp comet was coming and there's people behind it. There's ... Are they still around? What's it saying? It's their website. There's their website, Welcome to Divine Truth. Oh, boy.

   23. LWLawrence Wright1:02:28

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:28

       At what point in time is this lady going, "Help me here."

   25. LWLawrence Wright1:02:30

       I don't know if Mary's still hanging in. Mary 2, the q- the Queen Mary 2.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       That might be Mary 3.

   27. LWLawrence Wright1:02:34

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       (laughs) We don't even know. He might have found a new Mary. This one's the real, real Mary. Yeah. There's a lot, a lot. Is there a lot going on? Yeah. Do they have a lot of, uh, members? I wonder how many members they have. Divine Truth is hilarious to call it that. Do we think Jesus would be more creative? The real Jesus? Like, just Divine Truth, that's it? (laughs)

   29. LWLawrence Wright1:02:54

       Yeah. I thought we heard that one already.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:56

       You ever heard him talk? It's not very compelling. It's not, it's not that good.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:25:17

   Oh, Jesus Christ. …

   1. LWLawrence Wright1:15:00

      happened. And because there was confession, there was never really a trial. So they never had the cops who were investigating it, who were his colleagues, you know, uh, they, they didn't have to put together a coherent case. What did he confess to exactly? He confessed to raping his children. Jesus Christ. Well, Jesus Christ had something to do with it. (laughs) Uh, because they were all members of this, um, Four Square Gospel Church, you know, and, uh, very religious family. And, uh, the, the idea of Satan was very real to them. Um, and Erica, the oldest daughter, had made this outcry, and, um, so it, it, it started at a, at a, at a religious camp, and then it kind of spread. And then her sister made a similar outcry, and, you know, it got ... And then they started implicating their neighbors, and all this amazing story of, you know, the, the abuse that they had suffered and how many people had been killed. Pretty soon there were helicopters flying around the county looking for, you know, satanic fires, and, and digging up their property, and, uh, and they never found anything, you know? So, you know, I asked one of the cops, you know, "Well, did you find any bones?" "Yeah, we did. Uh, it was an elk bone." (laughs) "Well, that's not exactly ... You found an elk bone? That's the proof?" And so it turned out, uh, one of the cops had taken, uh, uh, these girls in for a physical inspe- inspection, and, um, there weren't any scars. In fact, they were virgins. So there was never any of the thing that they ... All the things they had described had never taken place, and yet Paul Ingram confessed to it because his preacher came in and told him that, you know, God would not allow anything other than real memories to come into his mind. And, uh, a psychologist came in and hypnotized him, and pretty soon he was be- eliciting these, these fantasies. Mm. And so Paul began to, uh, fantasize about what ... And at this point the, you know, the girls hadn't gotten so ripe in their storytelling. Uh, he began telling what, what he visualized, "I can see myself going into Erica's room," you know, and the preacher took that back to the church, and the gossip started, and it gets into the ears of the girls and they start making similar, but not exactly the same sort of statements about what happened. So these memories never coalesced. And anyway, Paul, I think he served 13 years in prison for s- for a crime that never actually occurred. And one day I happened to be in LA, and you remember, since you spent some time there, Aimee Semple McPherson? No. She was an evangelist, uh, a great character in American religious history. She had, uh, she had affairs with Charlie Chaplin and so on. Mm. And she was, you know, really a, a, a huge figure on, on the scale of Billy Graham or something like that, at the time in the '20s. And she started this congregation, and ...... I talked to the woman who was the camp counselor at that church. Um, and I said, "Well, how did, how did Erica make this confession?" She said, "Well, it was a dramatic moment. You know, I had been talking to the girls and I would say, you know, 'I know that one of you here has been abused.' And, you know, I, I can see you in the closet. I see you hiding and I c- you can hear the footsteps coming towards you.'" And some girl, "Oh, it was me, it was me!" You know, and so-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:19:22

      Oh, Jesus Christ.

   3. LWLawrence Wright1:19:22

      ... she's eliciting these things. And so at the end of the camp, uh, Erica is on the stage and she's just weeping. And she's not saying anything and so one of the counselors called over, Paula was her name, uh, you know, "Come help us, uh, understand what's going on with this young woman." And, uh, she put her hand on Erica's head and she says, "She's been abused." And then she said, "And it's by her father and it's happened many times."

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:19:55

      Oh my God.

   5. LWLawrence Wright1:19:56

      So in the mind of this very religious young woman, the, the message came from God. You know, that sh- she-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:20:08

      (sighs)

   7. LWLawrence Wright1:20:08

      ... she had been abused. And so she made an outcry that it wasn't hers. It was, it was the camp counselor's really that started this whole folly. And what, (sighs) what happened after that, uh, during that period of time, it, these, these kinds of stories took root in, um, daytime talk shows, uh, you know, it was, you know, all over the place, spread to other countries really quickly. Thousands of families were ripped apart by these kinds of accusations. And people like my therapist, brilliant, adorable people, took it on as, you know, their mission was to rescue people like that. And what happened is it drove away people who really had been abused. Their abuse was so insignificant by comparison with these elaborate tales, uh, you know, being, having babies cut up on you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:21:04

      Oh, Jesus.

   9. LWLawrence Wright1:21:04

      And I finally decided that these were abortion fantasies. I think, you know, the whole abortion disc- you know, discussion, sup- put yourself in the mind of an 18-year-old virgin and, you know, drawn to sexual ideas and yet haunted by the prospect of, you know, abortion and all the stuff that goes into it. The, the fantasies that they elicited were very similar to abortions.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:21:35

       But what, what caused the father to think that he had done these things? Just because of the hypnotherapy?

   11. LWLawrence Wright1:21:42

       I, that was a big part of it, but he went, when he went into his first session, uh, he made two statements. "Well, I don't remember it, but my daughters wouldn't lie."

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:21:53

       Oh God.

   13. LWLawrence Wright1:21:54

       And that's what hung him.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:21:56

       Oh God. There's been a lot of, like, weird cases in the past of people putting memories, particularly in children. Remember there was a, a very famous case of, um, a, um, uh, childcare center.

   15. LWLawrence Wright1:22:11

       Oh, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:22:12

       Remember that?

   17. LWLawrence Wright1:22:13

       Well, there have been a bunch of them.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:22:14

       Yeah.

   19. LWLawrence Wright1:22:14

       And there was one here in Austin, Fran and Dan, uh, that was, uh, actually I, I attended one of the days of the trial. Uh, it was, there was a, a daycare center south of town. Um, Fran and Dan had operated it for years and, uh, people would go drop their kids off and, you know, pick them up after work. Um, and some, during this period of time when there was this heightened fear of sexual, childhood sexual abuse, uh, some of the parents began quizzing their children. And there were psychologists who would come around with a doll and, you know, it had anatomically correct, you know, and, you know, "Did anybody touch you," you know? You know, sort of-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:23:05

       Yeah.

   21. LWLawrence Wright1:23:05

       ... suggestive-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:23:06

       Right.

   23. LWLawrence Wright1:23:07

       ... and so they elicited some stories from these children. And the stories were, "Mommy dropped me off and we flew to Mexico."

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:23:17

       (laughs)

   25. LWLawrence Wright1:23:18

       "And, uh, we killed a giraffe and buried it." And, you know, childhood fantasies-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:23:24

       Right.

   27. LWLawrence Wright1:23:24

       ... you know, along that line.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:23:26

       Yeah.

   29. LWLawrence Wright1:23:26

       And, uh, the, uh, the police couldn't prosecute, uh, you know, the idea that somehow they had all flown on a private jet from a daycare center (laughs) in South Austin, uh-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:23:43

       And then killed a giraffe and had enough time to come back home.

Episode duration: 3:01:04