Joe Rogan Experience #1593 - Dr. Carl Hart

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) It's got, like, a lot of freedom. Like, their, their, their ethos here, the way they look at things. Like, they're not interested in the government telling them what to do. Like-

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart0:23

      I gotta tell you, you know, I'm standing, I was standing downtown and, um, I never saw homelessness here. I, I, I saw people, like, working a lot of jobs. But now, it, uh, I mean, what I, what I saw when I was downtown, it's like I hadn't seen homelessness li- like this in Texas ever.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      No, it's a new thing.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart0:41

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      It's the, the, the government here changed the laws in terms of, like, allowing people to camp out. And so they camp out under underpasses and all that kinda shit. Have you been to LA recently?

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart0:51

      Um, not recently, no.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      L- LA's insane.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart0:54

      Yeah, but LA's always been that way-

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       It's insane. Never like this, though.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart0:57

       No.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Never like this.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart0:57

       But I've never seen a, I've never seen Texas like this, 'cause-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Oh, yeah.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart1:01

       ... Texas has always seemed like they had jobs and people were working, but I, I've never seen this before.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       Well, the COVID lockdowns affected everywhere, and I think it affected here less than it affected LA. But I think the real thing is, you know, I mean, it's, it's mental health, right? That's the real reason that-

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart1:20

       Yeah. That's it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       ... most of those folks are out there.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart1:21

       That's it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       They really need care.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart1:22

       That's it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       And then, you know, you've got a lot of drug addicts and you've got a lot of mental he- which brings up your book.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart1:29

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       Drug Use for Grown-Ups.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart1:31

       Drug Use for Grown-Ups, man.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       First of all, it's great to see you again.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart1:34

       You too.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       It's been a while. How long has it been?

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart1:36

       T- uh, about five, six years, man.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Geez.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, I don't know.…

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart15:00

      out here, we all have the potential to be assholes. And then if you think that what you're doing is holding up the liberty that we- we promise in this country, that you are being a real patriot, and you really believe that and you've been manipulated to do that by these leaders, they should pay the price. And that's the thing that's really ... I'm- I'm really disturbed by, is like, yeah, we'll ... We- we- we should get Trump, yep, absolutely. But we should go after those other people as well.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      Well, I don't know. What- what did Ted Cruz do that-

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart15:30

      Oh, with the, uh, election, um, well-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:32

      Oh, we're you saying that the election fraud?

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart15:35

      Election fraud, when he knew the- he knew what time it was. Those guys, um, they know they were being dishonest.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:43

      Well, I think it's a political ploy, right? There's a-

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart15:45

      I-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:45

      Politicians take stances based on where they think their constituents lean. And, you know, "Stop the Steal" and all that was trending on all these social media sites.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart15:55

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       And I feel like for a p- a prominent politician, that's a- a manipulative person that looks-

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart16:01

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       ... at these things and goes-

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart16:02

       Yep.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:03

       ... "That's an angle that I can use."

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart16:04

       Yeah. You're absolutely right, Joe. Uh, you're- that's exactly what politicians do. And we should expect more of them. And until we do, they're gonna continue to do that bullshit when they know that it's bullshit. And so you're right. That's what politicians do.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:19

       So do you think he ... So what did he ... What do you think they were trying to do? Do you think just posturing to try to get those people on their side for the future?

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart16:27

       That's right. I think that Ted Cruz and those folks were setting themselves up for a future presidential run or what have you-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart16:35

       ... and hoping that they get Trump, the king maker, to endorse them, even though Trump called his wife ugly. I would have beat Trump's ass.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       (laughs)

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart16:44

       I mean, I'm telling you. I mean, it's like, what kind of man allows that to happen?

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       He called him Lyin' Ted.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart16:48

       Yeah, I mean-

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Yeah.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart16:49

       ... but what kind of man allows another guy to call his wife ugly and not do anything?

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       Didn't he also infer that he was a serial killer or something? That his dad-

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart16:56

       His dad-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Zodiac Killer or something. Zodiac Killer, that's right, yeah.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart16:59

       Yeah, his dad helped kill Kennedy or something he said.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   High school. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      attic. They were selling it and doing it and they would just, like... I'm not joking, man. They had an attic apartment. They'd hide in the attic, and I saw him, like, wither away, stopped eating, shrunk. He was just an addict. He was just constantly doing coke. And they were all weird. They were all, like, ner-

   2. CHDr. Carl Hart30:13

      High school.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      ... nervous and sketchy.

   4. CHDr. Carl Hart30:14

      This is high school?

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Yeah. I was in high school.

   6. CHDr. Carl Hart30:16

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:16

      He was a year or two, maybe two years older than me.

   8. CHDr. Carl Hart30:19

      Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:19

      So I believe this was, I was probably 17, he was 19 at the time.

   10. CHDr. Carl Hart30:23

       Okay.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       And he was just off his rocker on coke, and I remember thinking like, "Whatever that drug is, fuck that."

   12. CHDr. Carl Hart30:29

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       Because it seemed like the people that, that did it, they got hooked so easy. It was so... They loved it so much, and it was hard to get, and then, you know, girls would do things to get it from guys, and it was just-

   14. CHDr. Carl Hart30:44

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:44

       ... there was a lot involved.

   16. CHDr. Carl Hart30:46

       Okay.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       That seemed, uh... I was afraid of drugs when I was young because I had, uh, I, I was very insecure, and I had this burning desire to be successful.

   18. CHDr. Carl Hart30:58

       Yeah, right on.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       And I felt like drugs were for losers and people that wanted to escape reality.And so, I-

   20. CHDr. Carl Hart31:05

       You and I, we share this belief, by the way.

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Yeah.

   22. CHDr. Carl Hart31:07

       This view. I mean, and that... So, I agree. That's what I did.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:10

       When... What changed you?

   24. CHDr. Carl Hart31:12

       Um, what changed me was years of evidence of watching people, giving drugs to people in a lab and watching them get high, and seeing predominantly positive effects. Now, this is now, um, well into my 30s, 40s and now 54. But over that long period of time, that's where I changed. Though I'm not like somebody who came to this from high school, always liked drugs and thought of dr-... I was an athlete. I thought I was going to play professional basketball. So I'm like you. I was just like you. Like, "Nah, I don't want to be like those cats."

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Yeah.

   26. CHDr. Carl Hart31:49

       You know what I'm saying? And, uh, but then me actually giving drugs to people and studying their responses, and then really checking out the history of why drugs are banned, and just seeing how we were... I was misled and manipulated and lied to. And now that I use all these drugs and think how, uh, I'm a better person for it, and my life has been enhanced because of it, uh, my connection to my loved ones are a lot better. Um, but again, I'm a responsible grownup, right? I'm 54 years old and I know what I'm doing. Um, so when we think about something like cocaine... Cocaine, not the bullshit that people sell on the street that's been stepped on. So, like, when you go to places like Colombia and you go to the source and you get really good cocaine... Like Colombia cocaine is about $7 a gram, whereas in New York is... Could be anywhere from 60 to $100 a gram. Um, uh, and not as good as the product in Colombia. So, you go to the source countries and you get good stuff. Um, it could be a really good evening with you and your significant other, you know, and, um, um, uh, all of these sort of stories of people being paranoid about the cops with cocaine, there are reasons to be paranoid if you're doing something wrong. There, there... So, I get that. I mean, so, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       You're also worried about being arrested.

   28. CHDr. Carl Hart33:21

       That's what I'm talking about.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       Yeah. Yeah.

   30. CHDr. Carl Hart33:22

       That's what... Exactly what I'm-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Really? …

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart45:00

      too. That's the main, that's one of the main things that's going on.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:04

      Really?

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart45:05

      Antihistamines, they're, they're, particularly the older ones, they, they knock you out. They're, um, uh, so you know the antipsychotic medications?

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart45:14

      Things like Thorazine or Halada- I don't know if you heard of those. But antihistamines were, uh, the antipsychotic medications were made originally from like, uh, modified anti- antihistamine structures.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:27

      Really?

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart45:28

      Yeah, so antihistamines are no, they're no joke.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:31

      See, I always thought of antihistamines as something that just stops you from like sneezing and makes your nose stop running.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart45:36

      That's... Yeah, so too will, um, uh, antipsychotic medication.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:39

       (laughs)

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart45:39

       And, and it'll stop you from vomiting as well. That, it does that too.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       Wow.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart45:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:44

       See, the term antipsychotic is immediately you tri- oh my god, you're, you're taking antipsychotic medication, you must be psychotic.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart45:52

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Like, there's a problem, right? It like-

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart45:53

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       ... there's an association problem.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart45:55

       Yeah, no, we, it's kind of a misnomer to call these things antipsychotics, antidepressants, because they're not really that sort of thing. That's just what the pharmaceutical companies have-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:07

       Labeled them.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart46:08

       ... yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:08

       Yeah.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart46:08

       And, and that has allowed them to really get over.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       Hmm, yeah. Um, (sighs) Portland is in the middle of a, an interesting experi- experiment, right? Like, Portland has essentially decriminalized everything.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart46:22

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       They've basically, they've decided to treat people like grownups-

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart46:25

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       ... and say, "We're not gonna arrest you for anything."

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart46:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:27

       And I'm very curious to see where that goes, because we know what happened in Portugal.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   What do you think…

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart1:00:00

      and in other cases, we don't know why people are dying. Like, for example, two, three weeks ago, I get an email from another woman who lost her son. Um, and what they told her was that the son died from an opioid cocaine related death. She sent me the toxicology. I looked at the levels of the opioid in his system. The level ... This particular guy had fentanyl in his system and he had cocaine in his system. Fentanyl is an opioid which is far more potent than heroin and we worry about that when people take fentanyl and thinking that it's heroin because they may take too much and die. Um, and cocaine was in his system. But both of these drugs, the levels that were in his system, for example, the cocaine was five time lower than the cocaine levels that we typically see in a lab when we're giving the drug and people are having a good time. And the fentanyl level in his system was also really low. So this poor guy probably didn't die as a result of fentanyl or cocaine-... um, but that's what the cause of death is, uh, um, uh, listed as on his death certificate.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

      What do you think he died from?

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart1:01:21

      Some substance that they didn't test for, maybe, or something else. I don't know. But I don't-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

      Is it possible that it was just an extreme reaction to the fentanyl and cocaine?

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart1:01:32

      This particular kid, um, I'm calling the kid, him a kid but he's uh, 30-something years old, um, had a history abusing these drugs, um, so he would have definitely had tolerance to both opioids and cocaine. Um, so I don't think it was some strange reaction because, uh, that, these were his drugs of choice. Um, but my point is, is that people who are doing death investigations, medical examiners and coroners are allowed to get away with saying that someone died from an opioid-related death simply because the drug is in the system. But when you start to really look at these levels, it's like, this wouldn't have killed the- the person.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart1:02:22

      And then they don't have to do their job anymore. So I, and, and I asked her about an autopsy, and she said they didn't do one.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:30

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart1:02:30

      And, um, so that really worries me now. Um, uh, I understand that people can get in trouble, uh, with tainted drugs like heroin tainted with fentanyl and that's a tr- that's a concern, we, we have to deal with that. But I'm also concerned that, um, we have bought into this story about the opioid crisis and we are letting people off the hook, uh, in terms of informing the public about what's really going on.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:03:05

       Now, when you say that you think it's nonsense, like the opioid crisis is nonsense, I mean, there's a lot of people out there that are addicted to opioids. Do you deny that?

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:15

       N- uh, no, I don't deny that, um-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:03:17

       A lot of people that seek refuge in pills, right? They just, they're trying to avoid-

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:21

       So let's, let's just make sure we have our language t-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:03:24

       Okay.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:24

       So when we, when we say addicted, we're talking about they meet criteria for this sort of substance use disorder that we've defined in medicine, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

       Yes. Yeah.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:33

       Okay. So the vast majority of people who use these drugs are not addicted.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:03:38

       Okay. But a lot of people who use these drugs are addicted.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:42

       Some.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:42

       Some.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:42

       A small percentage are addicted. This is true.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:46

       Do you think that it's, uh, a side effect of life problems? Like they're avoiding their life and some sort of seeking, trying to seek pleasure in these things?

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart1:03:58

       Sure.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:58

       And so they're blaming the opioids-

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart1:04:01

       Sure.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

       ... on, on this sort of behavior pattern?

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart1:04:03

       That's e- exactly. So let's think about the towns where we see these, that's being ravaged by the opioid crisis.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:04:11

       Right.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart1:04:11

       West Virginia.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:11

       Yeah.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:20:35

   So you, would you…

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart1:15:00

      bothering me. You know? And-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:01

      So you, would you do it spec- like say if you had some very important conversation on television or something like that, would you do heroin the day before purposely?

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart1:15:09

      Oh, I have done it, and I do, you know, when I, um, I did like a TED Talk, I do these kind of things.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:17

      Yeah.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart1:15:17

      I mark them by, like, what, a drug. Like my TED Talk was on methamphetamine. Uh, and then, you know, or some interview, uh, the day before I did heroin or something. Uh, just so I know in my head, and it just goes against all of these sort of stereotypes.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:34

      Yeah.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart1:15:35

      It just, uh... And it's what I do, uh, to feel better and to be a better person.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

      Mm. That's an interesting thing that people w- would never believe, right? That you do heroin and these drugs to be a better person. That flies in the face of conventional thinking.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart1:15:53

      I mean, what you... As a comedian, I think about getting on that stage and then you have to have... Your job is to make people laugh and it's a hard thing. All of us, we try to be funny in our life and we're not funny, right? And in our hands, it's not funny. Um, I think about all the pressure that, like, the top comedians have and when they get on that stage. And then you're expected to do it again and again in this internet er- age too with new material.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:24

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:25

       Um, how do you do that? Um, uh, I'm thinking about, like, John, John, John Mulaney.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:34

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:34

       Uh, recent-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:35

       Yeah.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:35

       ... recently, his recent troubles.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:37

       Yeah.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:38

       Guy hosted Saturday Night Live twice in the past year.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:42

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:42

       I mean, that's a big fucking honor. Um, and he w- had a d- show, all of these, all this pressure. Um, you, uh, so, you need something-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:54

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart1:16:54

       ... in order to do these kind of things. And also, to feel, uh, better and be upbeat and be excited to see these audiences when you are exhausted from putting this together.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:10

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart1:17:10

       I mean, you are just exhausted. It's a hard thing. And we don't have this conversation in society. What we do, what, the conversation we can have in our society is, "Oh, yeah, that comic, he was out of control and drugs did that to him."

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:24

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart1:17:24

       That's the only conversation we're allowed to have.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:26

       Like John Mulaney.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart1:17:27

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:28

       Yeah.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart1:17:28

       It's the only thing we, we're allowed to do is have that conversation.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:31

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:08:11