Joe Rogan Experience #1593 - Dr. Carl Hart

1. 0:00 – 2:16

   Austin homelessness and mental health as the real crisis

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) It's got, like, a lot of freedom. Like, their, their, their ethos here, the way they look at things. Like, they're not interested in the government telling them what to do. Like-

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart0:23

      I gotta tell you, you know, I'm standing, I was standing downtown and, um, I never saw homelessness here. I, I, I saw people, like, working a lot of jobs. But now, it, uh, I mean, what I, what I saw when I was downtown, it's like I hadn't seen homelessness li- like this in Texas ever.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      No, it's a new thing.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart0:41

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      It's the, the, the government here changed the laws in terms of, like, allowing people to camp out. And so they camp out under underpasses and all that kinda shit. Have you been to LA recently?

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart0:51

      Um, not recently, no.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      L- LA's insane.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart0:54

      Yeah, but LA's always been that way-

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       It's insane. Never like this, though.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart0:57

       No.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Never like this.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart0:57

       But I've never seen a, I've never seen Texas like this, 'cause-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Oh, yeah.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart1:01

       ... Texas has always seemed like they had jobs and people were working, but I, I've never seen this before.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       Well, the COVID lockdowns affected everywhere, and I think it affected here less than it affected LA. But I think the real thing is, you know, I mean, it's, it's mental health, right? That's the real reason that-

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart1:20

       Yeah. That's it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       ... most of those folks are out there.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart1:21

       That's it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       They really need care.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart1:22

       That's it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       And then, you know, you've got a lot of drug addicts and you've got a lot of mental he- which brings up your book.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart1:29

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       Drug Use for Grown-Ups.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart1:31

       Drug Use for Grown-Ups, man.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       First of all, it's great to see you again.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart1:34

       You too.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       It's been a while. How long has it been?

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart1:36

       T- uh, about five, six years, man.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Geez.
2. 2:16 – 4:58

   Comedians as truth-tellers: cancel culture, Louis C.K., and fear-driven narratives

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart2:16

      You know what's remarkable for me is that, um, you're a comedian, right? That's what you, you were. Uh, and the comedians have been our sort of saviors. You know, of all people in our society, that's who we look to, the comedians, because they can tell the truth. Like, so it's, it's so nice to see, uh, Louis C.K. coming back, you know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:39

      Yeah.

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart2:39

      And these people coming back. Um, Bill Burr, I just love the shit that he's doing. I mean, you know, uh, were it not for the comedians, we'd really be fucked up.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:49

      (laughs)

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart2:50

      No, thank you. Look, I, I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:51

      There's a lot of scared people out there and I think the comedians aren't as scared.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart2:55

      There's a few that are scared.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:56

      I, I think a lot of them are scared.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart2:58

      The terrible ones.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       I mean, when it, when that stuff happened to Louis C.K., they, they all kind of went quiet.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart3:02

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       And that was really stupid, you know?

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart3:05

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:05

       I mean, um, and I was expecting more of them to stand up and they didn't. So...

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart3:12

       Well, there was a bunch of different narratives, right? And if Louie wasn't talking, you know, all Louie did was, like, release a statement. But if, if you weren't talking to him, you didn't get his version of it. Once I talked to him personally and got his version, I'm like, well, this is a very different version than what you're hearing from, from the public and from the, the people that are making the worst, uh, judgments on it. Like, what, what it was mostly was he's kind of a pervert and he asked if he could jerk off in front of them and he had already been flirting with these girls and he knew them and they'd... This wasn't...

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       Yeah.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart3:44

       They had made it seem like he was a monster.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Yeah.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart3:46

       Like, he was, like, cornering people and jerking off in front of them.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       (laughs)

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart3:49

       I mean, but even that's hard to, like, like, cancel somebody. It's like you can just walk the fuck away.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       (laughs)

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart3:55

       I, I don't understand this.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       Yeah. Well, it was a man in power. And, uh, this was post Matt Lauer and post Harvey Weinstein.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart4:03

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:03

       And, you know, there was all this...

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart4:04

       Yeah, no-

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Yeah.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart4:05

       ... the context. The context

   30. NANarrator4:06

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3. 4:58 – 7:17

   Leaving the U.S. atmosphere: Switzerland, civic decay, and political polarization

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart4:58

      Yeah, you know, that's one of the things that, like, really has forced me to seek, um, uh, residence in another country, because, uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:07

      So you're saying you're in Switzerland now, huh?

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart5:09

      Yeah, between Switzerland and, and New York, uh, I- it's just that we have to do a better job of treating people better. I mean, uh, or caring for people, a- people who are not our family. Uh, just other human beings. Even if you're not taking care of them, uh, you gotta at least care about people. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:28

      Yeah.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart5:28

      ... it's okay to not care about people. That's some fucked up shit. And that's coming from the highest levels of government. And it's just, it's like I don't like that ethos. And so I don't wanna be around it because I don't want it, I don't want it to, to, to infect or poison me.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:44

      Mm. Do, do you feel like it has affected or poisoned you?

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart5:47

      Of course it does. You know, it makes you, it makes me, you know, angry, um, uh, for, for people who, like, support Trump, for example. Um, they're all not racist, of course, in, in this sort of thing, but I don't understand how people can support a guy who's so mean-spirited and just, uh, um...... just attacks other people. I don't understand it. And so when, when my, my good friends, I have good friends who support Trump, uh, it's hard for me to talk to them, um, uh, because I don't want to be rude or angry with them. But I just don't understand how you support people who are just mean to other people. I don't understand that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:32

      Hmm.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart6:32

      I just don't get it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       I understand. Yeah, I think the people that support him, there's, there's, uh, people that I know that are military people (clears throat) that support him. And they-

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart6:40

       Now, I'm ex-military too.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Yeah.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart6:42

       Now, I was, I was a cop in the military. So I, I, I know the military as well.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:47

       Yeah. Their, their take on it is just that he released the, the shackles that the military had to go and take down ISIS. And he released some of the restrictions that the military had under the previous administration as far as engaging with terrorists. Like, they've shut down ISIS in, like, less than a year from Trump being in office. And when I talk to people that are active military, they said there was a night and day difference between the way the military was funded, the way, you know-

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart7:12

       Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know about that. I just don't know that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:15

       Hmm. Yeah.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart7:15

       I just... I don't know enough about that.

4. 7:17 – 10:19

   Trump, Biden, and why people follow leaders: manipulation vs. representation

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:17

      But I agree with you in terms of like one of the best things about someone like, uh, like... Well, see, we- it's- we have to see what happens with Biden because I can't imagine he's gonna last. We were talking about this.

   2. CHDr. Carl Hart7:30

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:30

      I just, I feel like, uh, this is a... I feel like it's, it's-

   4. CHDr. Carl Hart7:35

      Yeah. He's, he's-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:36

      ... sleight of hand. (laughs)

   6. CHDr. Carl Hart7:37

      He's the Walking Dead.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:39

      (laughs)

   8. CHDr. Carl Hart7:39

      Yeah. I mean, look, come on now.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:40

      Yeah.

   10. CHDr. Carl Hart7:41

       Joe's been dead for some time, but-

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:43

       Yeah.

   12. CHDr. Carl Hart7:44

       ... uh...

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       But when Obama was in office, Obama's a statesman, right? He's an eloquent speaker. You hear him talk and you're like, "Well, that guy's definitely smarter than me."

   14. CHDr. Carl Hart7:51

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       "That seems like a person that should be president."

   16. CHDr. Carl Hart7:53

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:54

       What Trump did-

   18. CHDr. Carl Hart7:55

       Even though you might disagree with some of his policies, but-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:59

       Yeah.

   20. CHDr. Carl Hart7:59

       Yeah, but he certainly is, seems smarter and-

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       Presidential.

   22. CHDr. Carl Hart8:02

       He's presidential and not attacking people.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       Yeah.

   24. CHDr. Carl Hart8:05

       Right, right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       I think that what Trump represented to a lot of people was like this deviation from the system that never supported them, that never served them. They felt like politicians were all full of shit. And finally, this guy's going to come in and, you know, even his ideas like clean up the swamp, like this motto, like that, "Oh yeah, that's what we need. That's what we need." So they got behind it. And then when they realized... Whenever there's an us versus them situation, people oftentimes aren't thinking clearly. They just pick a side.

   26. CHDr. Carl Hart8:31

       I'm with you, Joe. I feel you. But when we think about, uh, Trump, um, and the, and the system, um, not for them.

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:40

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CHDr. Carl Hart8:40

       Let's just think about like fucking Black America. When has the system been for Black America? You know, so it's like, it's always been that way in terms of Black America, and that's fine. And you just work and, and you work and you work and you try and make the system work for you. But you don't say that we're going to take our country down and burn this bitch down. I mean, you don't do that or you don't hate, you can't go hate other people because of that. And so, like, when people say that the system is now not working for them, I, I get it. I feel the same way. And we should work together to see if we can make this thing work for us. You don't isolate yourself and then isolate other people or attack other people because what happens, like I know those jobs went away in Middle America, those factory jobs. I know that in the automobile industry, in the paper mills, all those, they went away. And people, uh, they're suffering. I get it. But the reason for their sufferings, uh, they are misattributing them. And, and people like Trump exploits that sort of thing and, uh, manipulates these people and uses these people to do their bidding because Trump doesn't give a fuck about those people as you know. He don't give a fuck about them. He despises those people. It's like I care more about those people than he does. And that's the shit that just blows my mind.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:05

       Yeah, it's manipulative. It's, uh... But that's what he had to do to get into office.

   30. CHDr. Carl Hart10:10

       I know, and he did it well.
5. 10:19 – 18:06

   Capitol riot accountability and the incentives for political lying

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart10:19

      I mean, this recent thing where, uh, those folks went to the Capitol when they were standing up on his behalf, and then he throws them under the bus.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      Yeah, he threw them all under the bus after it was over. Yeah, it's crazy.

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart10:32

      And I said-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:32

      Because I watched a video of it. I had not seen much video of it.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart10:35

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:36

      I'd only seen like a couple of videos on Instagram. I was like, "What the fuck?" I didn't want to get depressed and watch it.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart10:41

      Yeah, me too.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:41

      But today I said, "Let's get depressed," and I watched a bunch of it. I, I had no idea how bad it was-

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart10:46

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:46

       ... in terms of like the, the sheer number of people, like storming the gates and screaming and these small handful of cops that were supposed-

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart10:53

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:53

       ... to protect it.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart10:54

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:54

       And that one cop that got beaten.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart10:56

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:56

       There's like a video of them hitting the cop with flags and shit.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart10:59

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:59

       It's like, "What the fuck?" Like what? How did that happen? How did it deteriorate to that?

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart11:05

       I know, man. It's, um, it's really sad to me that, that, that kind of thing happened. And then you have these fucking cowards, Rudy Giuliani, uh, Ted Cruz, uh, Josh Hawley. All these cowards, they are allowed to stand on their pulpit and, and, and say these things like they're tough. But they're nowhere around to support these folks in the first place. And they're sending them into the battle, and now they will, um, uh, completely comfortably join the ranks of their members of Congress, while these other people are going to go to jail and have these, these charges, uh, uh, which they should have, of course. But, um, uh, these leaders who manipulated them, there's, there's no consequences to them. I mean, I think that's the real crime.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:55

       Yeah. Well, we'll see if there's consequences because I, I have a feeling there will be for Trump. I think this is going to be the end. I really do, because I think there's, uh, there's very little chance that he's going to run in 2024 after this because a lot of people were hoping for that. A lot of his supporters were hoping for that. But after this, I don't, I don't even think-

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart12:13

       Yeah, I think the useful idiot is done.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       Yeah.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart12:15

       I mean, I think like the people like Mitch McConnell and those people, they don't have no more use for him, so he's done.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:20

       Yeah.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart12:21

       I mean, he's already ... He's done enough for them. They're, they're happy with what he's done. He's delivered with the Supreme Court and so forth. His time is over.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:28

       It's interesting to see, you know, we've always known that there's a certain faction in this country that's fairly simple. Like, n- not that sophisticated, not very smart, and they like thinking in, like, a real narrow box. And this guy came along and was their guy, you know? And then we realize, like, oh, like the assholes of this country were unrepresented and now all of a sudden they got represented. Like, there was a lot of people. Like, a lot of those folks that stormed the Capitol, that stormed Capitol Hill, like if you see, like when they get arrested and you find out who they are, like guy living with his mom, believing QAnon conspiracies, thinks the FBI is sending out pedophile codes, that kind of shit. Like, those guys didn't have a king before.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart13:09

       What about-

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       You realize how many of them there are.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart13:11

       But what about the guy who was, I don't know, a laternic- a l- a retired laternic- lieutenant colonel from the, uh, army or the air force? I mean, so there are people there who also had education and they were plugged into society, right? There were a number of those people too, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       I'm sure there was a few, yeah.
6. 18:06 – 20:25

   Can drugs make society kinder? Psychedelics, ego dissolution, and ‘drug classification’ confusion

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:06

      I think there's a- a- a style of behavior that lends itself to success, like business success and financial success, and it's like a speed style, like people that are into amphetamines and people that are into, like, getting ahead and pushing and- and I think that there's a- a style of behavior that lends itself to be compassionate, thinking more about community, and I think that is more like a marijuana style or a mushroom style.

   2. CHDr. Carl Hart18:35

      You think so?

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:36

      And I think ... Yeah, I do.

   4. CHDr. Carl Hart18:37

      What?

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:37

      Try some of that. See-

   6. CHDr. Carl Hart18:38

      I will.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:38

      CBD pineapple jalapeno drink.

   8. CHDr. Carl Hart18:42

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:42

      No, I think, I think a lot of these people that are ... I mean, I-... look, I'm a big proponent of psychedelics use, and a lot of times people think that that's, uh, frivolous. That's a silly thing, it's an escape thing. I don't really think it is. I think it, it seems silly and frivolous for people that have never engaged in it. But I think that one of the things that could be the savior of this civilization, I really believe this, is the legalization of psychedelic drugs. Because I think if we had more people taking psychedelic drugs responsibly, and especially under the direction of real professionals, if we allowed there to be real professionals, we would allow people to have these experiences that dissolve their ego and give them this feeling of community and compassion that I think a lot of those people that stormed Capitol Hill, a lot of people like Ted Cruz, a lot of people that run for government and manipulate people, they have no experience in these things. They don't, they don't know what that is. They don't know what those feelings are, they don't, they, they've never had that kind of experience.

   10. CHDr. Carl Hart19:50

       Yeah, um, so, uh, when you say psychedelics, what drugs are you classifying? Because you know the classification can be, um, misleading, and-

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CHDr. Carl Hart20:01

       ... also not consistent. So what, what drugs are you thinking of?

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:04

       I think mushrooms are a big one.

   14. CHDr. Carl Hart20:06

       So psilocybin?

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       Psilocybin.

   16. CHDr. Carl Hart20:07

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:07

       Even psilocybin, just microdosing-

   18. CHDr. Carl Hart20:09

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:09

       ... I think could save a lot of people's-

   20. CHDr. Carl Hart20:11

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:11

       ... future, and just alter the course of the way they behave.

   22. CHDr. Carl Hart20:15

       Well, I, check it out, I agree with you about, um, drugs being, um, useful and helpful to, for people to be certainly empathetic-

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:25

       Yeah.

7. 20:25 – 29:24

   MDMA is (chemically) methamphetamine: hypocrisy, PCP vs. ketamine, and media myths

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart20:25

      ... and understand other people's plight. Um, but I wouldn't limit it to what we call psychedelics, you know, like, we think about something like MDMA.

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart20:34

      It's an amphetamine. Um ...

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:36

      Oh, it's true, right.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart20:37

      Yeah, and we think about something like heroin.

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:39

      How is that an amphetamine though? What is it, how does MDMA work?

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart20:43

      Uh, see this chemical structure here?

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:45

      Yeah.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart20:46

      This is methamphetamine, uh ...

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       Is it really?

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart20:48

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       (laughs)

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart20:48

       And, and so if you wanna make, uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan20:50

       Very few people like yourself are walking around with meth shirts on.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart20:53

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       (laughs) I would say that one of the things about meth is there's no meth advocates.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart20:57

       (laughs) Well, uh, I guess I am. Uh, and, and, and so what ... If you wanna make MDMA, all you do is put a l- another ring, a methylenedioxy ring-

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:07

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart21:07

       ... and then that's MDMA.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:08

       Really?

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart21:09

       So MDMA is called methylenedioxy methamphetamine. That's what it's called. That's the d- that's the name, and, um, certainly people know about MDMA's reputation in terms of increasing empathy-

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:23

       Yeah.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart21:24

       ... and understanding and all those things. So that, but it's not a psychedelic, it's an amphetamine.

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       In the classic sense.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart21:29

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:29

       Yeah.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart21:30

       It's a, and it's a, it's a, same can happen with methamphetamine.

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:32

       Right.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart21:33

       The same can happen with heroin. Depends on dose and all those sorts of things.

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:37

       Yeah.
8. 29:24 – 33:45

   Cocaine: Rogan’s avoidance story vs. Hart’s ‘responsible adult’ case

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart29:24

      Right? So when we think about, uh, drugs, let's just think about cocaine. That's, uh, you and I, we always have good co- cocaine conversations. Uh, we should probably do some cocaine and have a conversation. That's, uh, some good cocaine, of course, not anything that's like, uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:38

      I've never done cocaine.

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart29:39

      Are you serious?

   4. JRJoe Rogan29:40

      Yeah, never done it.

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart29:42

      Wait now, I thought you got your start at the Comedy Store?

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:45

      I did.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart29:46

      I thought that was cocaine central.

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:47

      It was a lot of cocaine at the Comedy Store. I avoided it. When I was in high school, my, uh, good friend had a cousin who was selling coke, and him and his girlfriend, all they did was do coke and hide. They were, they were in this fucking attic. They were selling it and doing it and they would just, like... I'm not joking, man. They had an attic apartment. They'd hide in the attic, and I saw him, like, wither away, stopped eating, shrunk. He was just an addict. He was just constantly doing coke. And they were all weird. They were all, like, ner-

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart30:13

      High school.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:13

       ... nervous and sketchy.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart30:14

       This is high school?

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:15

       Yeah. I was in high school.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart30:16

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:16

       He was a year or two, maybe two years older than me.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart30:19

       Okay.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:19

       So I believe this was, I was probably 17, he was 19 at the time.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart30:23

       Okay.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:23

       And he was just off his rocker on coke, and I remember thinking like, "Whatever that drug is, fuck that."

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart30:29

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       Because it seemed like the people that, that did it, they got hooked so easy. It was so... They loved it so much, and it was hard to get, and then, you know, girls would do things to get it from guys, and it was just-

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart30:44

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:44

       ... there was a lot involved.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart30:46

       Okay.

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       That seemed, uh... I was afraid of drugs when I was young because I had, uh, I, I was very insecure, and I had this burning desire to be successful.

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart30:58

       Yeah, right on.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       And I felt like drugs were for losers and people that wanted to escape reality.And so, I-

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart31:05

       You and I, we share this belief, by the way.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       Yeah.

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart31:07

       This view. I mean, and that... So, I agree. That's what I did.

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:10

       When... What changed you?
9. 33:45 – 46:12

   Why drugs are illegal: Coca-Cola’s cocaine history and racialized prohibition

   1. CHDr. Carl Hart33:45

      So, but when we think about cocaine and why it's illegal-

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:48

      Yeah.

   3. CHDr. Carl Hart33:48

      ... um, uh, cocaine came to the United States, uh, in the pop-... For the popular masses in the late 1800s. And Coca-Cola, this guy John Pendleton, I think his name was, he put it in Coca-Cola... Well, this product, uh, coca wine, uh, and he was out of Atlanta. And, uh, he put it in coca wine in 1894. The next year, Atlanta banned alcohol. So, before prohibition, alcohol was banned in Atlanta. Por- uh, prohibition did-

   4. JRJoe Rogan34:23

      Just Atlanta?

   5. CHDr. Carl Hart34:24

      Just Atlanta. I mean, cities.

   6. JRJoe Rogan34:26

      Interesting.

   7. CHDr. Carl Hart34:27

      Various cities banned this. Um, prohibition happened in 1920, uh, nationwide. Um, so since they banned, um, alcohol in Atlanta, he had to come up with a new formulation and he add-... And so what he did was took the alcohol out, added carbonated water and sugar, then you have Coca-Cola. What... That's... This is how Coca-Cola-

   8. JRJoe Rogan34:50

      Wow.

   9. CHDr. Carl Hart34:50

      This is how Coca-Cola was made. And he put it in these soda fountains, so he sold it at pharmacies, at the soda fountains, and they were all for whites only. So, cocaine was use-... Was typically available only to white people at that time. But then in, uh, I guess maybe 1899, early 1900s, Coca-Cola began bottling the product. Now it's available to Black people. And now you start to get these... The connection between violence and cocaine use among Black people, and this sort of narrative grew and grew, um, to the point where we banned cocaine effectively in 1914, largely because of its association with Black people using the drug. A similar thing happened with opium and the Chinese. That's the real reason that those drugs are banned, not because of pharmacology, you know what I'm saying?

   10. JRJoe Rogan35:54

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   11. CHDr. Carl Hart35:54

       Now, that's not to say that people can't get in trouble with these drugs, so people do, you know, like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan35:59

       Just like they can get in trouble with alcohol.

   13. CHDr. Carl Hart36:00

       That's right. That's right. But the only stories that we tell about cocaine, uh, uh, is the one where people get in trouble.

   14. JRJoe Rogan36:10

       Yes.

   15. CHDr. Carl Hart36:10

       But I got to tell you, uh, recently I watched, um, uh, Pete Davidson's movie. What was that? The s-... The King of Staten Island-

   16. JRJoe Rogan36:18

       Yes.

   17. CHDr. Carl Hart36:18

       ... I think it is. It was the first time in a popular movie where, um, the... A hero, uh, used cocaine and he was still a hero. So, you might remember the scene where Steve Buscemi and, uh, I think Bill Burr, they was talking about-

   18. JRJoe Rogan36:37

       I didn't see the movie.

   19. CHDr. Carl Hart36:38

       Oh, it was a great scene.

   20. JRJoe Rogan36:40

       Heard it was great.

   21. CHDr. Carl Hart36:41

       A great scene where they were talking about, um, Pete's dad. And Pete's dad, um, had used cocaine previously, and, um, Pete didn't know this. And... But it was just a matter of fact. The guy used cocaine. He liked his cocaine, but he was still the good guy. He was a fireman. He was a hero. He was all of these things, and they didn't besmirch him for using cocaine. It's one of the few times that you see in popular culture that somebody uses something like cocaine and they're not...... besmirch. They don't have, they don't go down this path of becoming an addict and losing all of their possessions because of the drug.

   22. JRJoe Rogan37:21

       Yeah.

   23. CHDr. Carl Hart37:22

       And so I thought, like, they're, they're doing something here that's different and then that was really ... That was a great scene.

   24. JRJoe Rogan37:29

       Yeah. Most of the stereotypes about cocaine in Hollywood are, you know, people using people, seedy people, people that have no compassion for each other, ruthlessly ambitious people (sniffs) doing coke and just all full of themselves and high on themselves. "And, ra, I'm gonna take over this fucking town." (sniffs) "Ah!"

   25. CHDr. Carl Hart37:48

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan37:48

       That's what you, you hear and see.

   27. CHDr. Carl Hart37:50

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan37:50

       You know?

   29. CHDr. Carl Hart37:51

       Yeah, um, yeah, I hope that changes, man.

   30. JRJoe Rogan37:54

       I know. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, I, I would try it with you.
10. 46:12 – 51:29

    Decriminalization vs. regulation: Portugal, Spain, drug testing, and contamination

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       Hmm, yeah. Um, (sighs) Portland is in the middle of a, an interesting experi- experiment, right? Like, Portland has essentially decriminalized everything.

    2. CHDr. Carl Hart46:22

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       They've basically, they've decided to treat people like grownups-

    4. CHDr. Carl Hart46:25

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       ... and say, "We're not gonna arrest you for anything."

    6. CHDr. Carl Hart46:27

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:27

       And I'm very curious to see where that goes, because we know what happened in Portugal.

    8. CHDr. Carl Hart46:31

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       Portugal did that and they had a drastic decrease in crimes, drastic decrease in addictions, and it would, really opened up a lot of people's eyes.

    10. CHDr. Carl Hart46:38

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:39

        They were like, "Oh, Jesus Christ. Like, maybe we're doing this the wrong way."

    12. CHDr. Carl Hart46:42

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:42

        And demonizing these substances, and also infantilizing people.

    14. CHDr. Carl Hart46:47

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:47

        That's, that's the, the big one, is, uh, another grown adult telling you-

    16. CHDr. Carl Hart46:52

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan46:52

        ... that you can't do something-

    18. CHDr. Carl Hart46:54

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan46:54

        ... that you can't handle it, you shouldn't be able to. But also making this distinction just with drugs, but not with other things that are legal, like bull riding or BMX riding-

    20. CHDr. Carl Hart47:04

        Right on.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:04

        ... or MMA fighting.

    22. CHDr. Carl Hart47:05

        Right on.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:06

        Or a lot of other dangerous things that people enjoy doing, including drinking.

    24. CHDr. Carl Hart47:09

        Right on.

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:09

        You know? And it's, it's-

    26. CHDr. Carl Hart47:10

        Wow.

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:11

        The problem is our perception. We have this ingrained perception of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And you will see people at a bar with a cigarette in one hand and a drink in the other say, "I don't do drugs."

    28. CHDr. Carl Hart47:23

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:23

        I mean, we have this really Looney Tunes version of what drugs are and what a person should and should not be doing with their life. And if you see someone who's out there, "Hey, I'm gonna go do coke. You wanna do coke?" Like (gasps) .

    30. CHDr. Carl Hart47:34

        Right on.
11. 51:29 – 1:34:50

    Opioids, heroin, and ‘the opioid crisis’: withdrawal, mixing risks, and safe supply

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:29

       Well, I know many people that have had problems with, uh, opiates, uh, particularly pills. Why is it that that seems to be so addictive? Why, why are these pills so addictive?

    2. CHDr. Carl Hart51:41

       Um, I ... That you gotta give me a little more than that, Joe, because I know far more people who haven't had problems with-

    3. JRJoe Rogan51:48

       Okay.

    4. CHDr. Carl Hart51:48

       ... these pills 'cause you, you know there are a lot like you, you had the pump, (laughs) that's beyond appeal, that's ev- you had the morphine, that's-

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:56

       They only gave me that for a day though. (laughs)

    6. CHDr. Carl Hart51:57

       Exactly. But, but the thing about it, you weren't going out there tricking to get into more of the pump, right?

    7. JRJoe Rogan52:02

       That's true.

    8. CHDr. Carl Hart52:03

       Right? I mean, 'cause you-

    9. JRJoe Rogan52:03

       I didn't have enough time to get addicted to it, but they did give me pills that I hated. Um, I do not remember what it was. I believe it was Vicodins or Percocets.

    10. CHDr. Carl Hart52:12

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan52:13

        I don't remember which one.

    12. CHDr. Carl Hart52:13

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan52:13

        But I remember taking it and f- whatever it was, for me, the reaction was I felt so stupid.

    14. CHDr. Carl Hart52:19

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan52:19

        It made me feel so dumb. My mind was so dull that I just got rid of 'em and I sold it to some dude who, uh-

    16. CHDr. Carl Hart52:26

        (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan52:26

        ... was at the pool hall, was it? He goes, "You got those? I'll buy those off you." And I, I gave 'em to him, like, "Take 'em. Get these fucking things away from me."

    18. CHDr. Carl Hart52:33

        (laughs) Yeah, but you know, uh, there are people who have problems with it. Let's just-

    19. JRJoe Rogan52:36

        Yes.

    20. CHDr. Carl Hart52:37

        ... uh, let's just take those people.

    21. JRJoe Rogan52:37

        Well, I have a good buddy of mine who got his nose broken.

    22. CHDr. Carl Hart52:39

        Yeah, that's the-

    23. JRJoe Rogan52:39

        Got his nose operated on-

    24. CHDr. Carl Hart52:40

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan52:40

        ... after his nose is broken, doctor gave him pills.

    26. CHDr. Carl Hart52:42

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan52:43

        Four months later he's still taking the pills and finally e- his friend-

    28. CHDr. Carl Hart52:45

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan52:45

        ... said, "Hey man, you gotta stop taking those fucking pills."

    30. CHDr. Carl Hart52:48

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:08:11