The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #1596 - Avi Loeb
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,004 words- 0:02 – 0:59
Meeting Avi Loeb: no social media, avoiding the noise
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- ALAvi Loeb
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) Hello, Avi.
- ALAvi Loeb
Thanks for having me.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Uh, I, um, I'm very good friends with your friend, Lex Fridman.
- ALAvi Loeb
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, he highly recommends you as well.
- ALAvi Loeb
Oh, thank you. You know, he asked me about social media and I told him I have no footprint on social media. He said, "Why?" And I said, "I promised my wife when I married her not to have any account." And he said I should get married.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ALAvi Loeb
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, he reads accounts.
- ALAvi Loeb
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
He read... And he, he says he doesn't, but then he does. He reads, like comments and stuff, and then he gets mad at things people say. It's kinda funny.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah. You see, I save the time. I don't even read what other people say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good for you.
- ALAvi Loeb
And I don't care how many likes I have. That's the other thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's wonderful. That's a freedom.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a underrated freedom.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- 0:59 – 1:37
What is ’Oumuamua and why it immediately stood out
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, you came on my radar when, uh, you were discussing, uh, a, a mu, a Oumuamua. Is that how you say it?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes, that's the right thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
A Oumuamua, which is an object that we detected in space, that you believe could possibly have been extraterrestrial in origin, meaning from some sort of a civilization.
- ALAvi Loeb
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Why did you... d- why... Te- please explain to people what a Oumuamua is, why it's so extraordinary, and why you think it's possible that it came from some other intelligent civilization.
- ALAvi Loeb
Right. So, I'm a scientist and, uh, I basically follow the evidence, just like Sherlock Holmes-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 1:37 – 6:10
The anomalies: no tail, extra acceleration, and extreme brightness variation
- ALAvi Loeb
... trying to find solutions. It's a detective story. You have some anomalies, some things that don't quite match what you expected, and you're trying to find an explanation. And, uh, the thing about Oumuamua is that it was discovered on, uh, October 19th, 2017, um, a little more than three years ago. And, um, it was the very first object that visited our vicinity in the solar system from outside the solar system. It moved too fast to be bound to the sun. Very first object that we have found coming to us from interstellar space, from other places. And, uh, at first astronomers said, "Oh, yeah, it's probably just like the objects we had in our solar system, all the rocks that we have seen before." Uh, we have seen comets and asteroids. So a, a, a comet is a rock that is covered with ice, water ice. So when it gets close to the sun, the surface gets warmed up and the ice turns into vapor, um, gas. And you see this beautiful cometary tail, uh, behind it. That's what a comet is. An asteroid is just rock without much ice on it. Actually, the first person to explain, uh, what comets are, uh, was at Harvard, the university that I, uh, am affiliated with. And the, the story goes that... I mean, it was Fred Whipple that he went to Harvard Square and saw all the slush, uh, during the winter day, you know, and came up with the idea that it's just icy rock or icy, icy rocks or, you know, rocky ice. Uh, and, um, that's what a comet is. And, um, the comets come to us from the periphery of the solar system. And, you know, astronomers said, "Okay, other stars may have them as well." And, you know, since, since they're loosely bound if they are in the periphery, they can be easily ripped apart from their host star, and some of them will fly in our direction, we will see them. So they said Oumuamua is probably a comet. The only problem is there wasn't any cometary tail. So you look for a duck, but it doesn't look like a duck, you know? So then the question is, what is it? And so people said, "Okay, it's just a rock without any ice on it." Then the problem was that it exhibited an extra push away from the sun. And usually you get it from the rocket effect that when, when you make the cometary tail, uh, it pushes the object in the opposite direction, just like a jet plane. A jet plane works by throwing gas out, and that's pushing you forward. So a comet has an extra push when it evaporates. Uh, but there was no cometary tail, so why did it show an extra push? That was the key question in my mind, at which point I started thinking maybe it's not a comet and not an asteroid, something else, you know? And the other strange thing about it, it, it changes its, uh, brightness by a factor of 10 or more, and the brightness of the object, the light that we see is simply reflected sunlight. So just think about it, uh, think about a piece of paper, razor thin piece of paper tumbling in the wind and changing the area that we can see, uh, the projected area of that piece of paper by a factor of 10 as we look at it. That's exactly what we inferred from this object spinning around every eight hours, but changing its brightness by a factor of 10, meaning that the area projected on the sky that we see that reflects sunlight changed by a factor of 10. So that means it has an extreme geometry, most likely flat if you try to interpret the light that it reflected, uh, over... as it was tumbling around. And so a flat object about the size of a football field that has an extra push, if it were a comet, it needed to lose about a tenth of its, uh, weight. So a lot of evaporation. You can't just say, "Oh, it's a little bit of evaporation and, uh, therefore that's why we don't see it." It should have lost a tenth of its weight, you know? If we go on a diet and lose a tenth of our weight, that's, that's a big chunk of, of, of mass, right? So this object didn't lose that because we didn't see it. And the Spitzer Space Telescope looked very deeply behind it to see if there are any traces of dust or, or gas. Didn't see anything.
- 6:10 – 8:16
Light-sail hypothesis and the “artificial” possibility
- ALAvi Loeb
So then...... you know, just like Sherlock Holmes, I was trying to think, together with, um, a- a post-doc of mine, uh, Shmuel Bialy, what could explain it. And the only thing that came to mind is reflecting sunlight. So, um, the object itself is being pushed by the sunlight reflecting off its surface. And, you know, um, that would agree with everything we know about the object, but in order for it to work, the object needs to be very thin, like a sail. You know, the sail on a boat?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, so a sail is pushed by a wind, uh, but you can also push an object, a thin object, by r- light, and that is called the light sail. And we're actually using this technology now, developing it for space exploration. The big advantage is you don't need to carry the fuel with the spacecraft. You just reflect light off it and it's being pushed. Now, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
There was a science fiction movie they did something like that. I think it was called Sunlight.
- ALAvi Loeb
Quite possibly.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was about that.
- ALAvi Loeb
I shou- I should mention an anecdote that in September, just a few months ago, in September 2020, there was another object that showed an extra push, no cometary tail, and then astronomers... So astronomers gave it a name, 2020 SO, okay, September 2020. And then they, uh, w- extrapolated back in time and found that it came from Earth actually, and then they looked at the history books and show- and- and saw that there indeed there was a rocket booster from a lunar lander that was kicked into space, and this is the object.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- ALAvi Loeb
Now, why did it, uh, show this push? Because it's a hollow... it's a very thin structure. So here is an example where we can tell it's artificial, and we know that we made it. But Oumuamua could not have been made by us, because it was passing near us just for a few months, very quickly, faster than any rocket that we can launch. That's why we couldn't really chase it when it was receding away from us. And it came from outside the solar system. So, you know, I just do one plus one equal two.
- 8:16 – 15:33
Backlash, taboo, and historical parallels (Galileo, Bruno)
- ALAvi Loeb
I say, "Okay, it looks very peculiar. Maybe it belongs to another civilization." I just put it in a scientific paper. I didn't think... you know, we didn't have any press release. Then it went viral. Th- the public got extremely interested. And the thing that really surprised me is that my colleagues were pushing back. They were very upset that this possibility was even mentioned. You know, we had a- a- a seminar, a lecture about this object at Harvard, and a f-... a colleague of mine, after the lecture, said, "This object is really weird. I wish it never existed."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ALAvi Loeb
Now to me, you know, that... I was really appalled by this. How can you say something like that? You should, you should be happy about whatever nature gives you. You know, you learn something new. If- if something doesn't look right, it actually teaches us. Our... it's a learning experience. We learn that we have to revise the way we think about reality, you know. That's a good thing. That's not a bad. You shou- you shouldn't always be in your comfort zone and think that the future will be the same as the past. So, I actually see it as a blessing, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I can't imagine why anybody would be upset that it exists. Like, "I wish it didn't exist." That's kind of hilarious.
- ALAvi Loeb
Because it takes you away from your comfort zone, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
I know but it's... if you're studying the heavens, you're studying the cosmos, wha- wha- what is the ultimate thing that you could find, another civilization or a piece of something-
- ALAvi Loeb
Well, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
... from another civilization?
- ALAvi Loeb
... that's exactly my point. But if you go back in time... Let- let me give you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ALAvi Loeb
... two examples. Uh, Galileo Galilei said, "I think the earth moves around the sun." But at the time, philosophers knew for sure that the sun moves around the earth. You see it moving in the sky. It was consistent with their religious beliefs, everything. So they said, "We don't want to look through your telescope to change our view. We will put you in house arrest."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ALAvi Loeb
Now, what did they achieve by that? And by the way, I'm in house arrest, but it's because of the pandemic, not because... So what did they achieve by that? They maintained their ignorance and the earth continued to move around the sun. You know, reality is the one thing that never goes away, irrespective whether you ignore it. You can ignore it. Now, there is another example. There is a student, a student at Harvard that, as a result of my book on this subject that is about to come out in- in a week or so, she- she was inspired to do her PhD by... you know, on the theme of my book. So she invited me to a thesis exam just a couple of months ago, and one of the examiners, a professor, asked her, "Do you know why Giordano Bruno, an Italian guy, was burnt at the stake?" And she said, "Well, he was an obnoxious guy. He irritated a lot of people." Which is true, you know, he was an obno... But the professor corrected her and said, "No. It was because he said that other stars are just like the sun, you know, there are stars like the sun, and they have planets like the earth around them, and there may be life on those planets." And that was offensive to the church because if there is life there and it had sinned, you know, (laughs) then Christ should have visited those planets to save them, to save the life- lifeforms. And, you know, you need multi- copies of Christ to- to visit those planets, and that was unacceptable, so they burned the guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Burned him alive.
- ALAvi Loeb
So- so you see that, you know, throughout history, people are not really open-minded about the sky, the heavens, as you said.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they're not open-minded when it comes to saying something that could make you an outcast or that could align you with an outcast or open you to ridicule. Peo- people don't like being ridiculed, and I- I would imagine that's one of the things you've experienced.
- ALAvi Loeb
I don't care.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, wonderful for you.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, I go... Look, uh, what I care about is, you know, I- I operate by the same theme that basketball coaches...... tell their team. Uh, they're, they're team players. They say, "Keep your eyes on the ball, not on the audience."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- ALAvi Loeb
I really don't care what other people think, I just follow the evidence. Now, it may well be that I'm wrong, that this is really an unusual object that is of natural origin. And by the way, some of the mainstream astronomers tried to explain it, but they always came up with an explanation that is the first object of its type that we have ever seen. So, all I'm saying is, if it's, if it's nothing that we have seen before, why not contemplate also the possibility that it's artificially made? You know, why is that so offensive to, to people? And besides, you know, science is about evidence, so let's look for other objects and not always assume that we know the, the answer in advance. You know, if, if you took a caveman and showed the caveman a cellphone, a modern cellphone, the caveman would think that it's a rock, just a shiny rock. And, um, I can understand the response of my colleagues, but on the other hand, I would expect them to be more open-minded. That that's the whole purpose of science is to... it's a learning experience. We should be humble. We should be modest. We shouldn't assume that we always know the answer in advance, and we shouldn't worry about our image. It's not about us. It's about finding what the heavens are, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, the pushback that you've received, is there pushback on your interpretation of the evidence? Is, is there pushback on the evidence itself? Like, what is the pushback? Is it just the possibility that it's extraterrestrial in origin?
- ALAvi Loeb
Just the possibility bothers people, and they say, you know, we shouldn't even discuss it. There is a taboo on it. Now, some of these people that are very vocal about it, you know, some of them I think of as just, like, this congressman that for many years was making anti-gay statements, and then, uh, in March 2020, he confessed that he's gay.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ALAvi Loeb
You know? So, I believe that some of them, deep inside, are really intrigued by this possibility-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
... and they speak out in a way that is against it, but, uh, would... you know, they will jump ship as soon as the evidence becomes undisputable. To me, it's just a possibility that we should entertain because it affects the way we behave in the future, you know? We... if we search for other objects of the same, we might find even more conclusive evidence. If we don't, uh, look for unexpected things, we will never discover them, you know, if we put blinders on our eyes. So, all I'm saying is, it's a reasonable possibility for this, a reasonable interpretation for the evidence we have for this object, which is unusual, very... because all the natural interpretations also assume something that we have never seen before. So, I say, okay, so let's consider the possibility of a, uh, a message in a bottle. You know, when you walk on the beach and you see most of the time seashells or rocks that were naturally produced, every now and then, you encounter a plastic bottle that was artificially made.
- 15:33 – 23:53
Are humans interesting to advanced civilizations? Optimism vs cynicism
- ALAvi Loeb
And perhaps Oumuamua was the first plastic bottle, you know, that carries some message for us, and that would change our perception about our place in the universe, you know, we are not alone. Also, I don't think that we are the smartest kid on the block, if you ask me. Uh, I think that we are probably quite typical because half of the stars like the sun have a planet the size of the Earth, uh, roughly at the same distance that could have liquid water on the surface and the chemistry of life as we know it. Now, you open a recipe book for cakes, you can see that you can make very different cakes out of the same ingredients, you know, depending on how you mix them. You can take flour, sugar, I mean, so you get very different outcomes. What's the chance that if you took the soup of chemicals that existed on Earth and put them together in some random fashion to get the life as we know it, that you got the best cake possible? What's the... the chance is minuscule. I think we are sort of typical, like ants, uh, on a sidewalk, you know? We are not really special. That's why nobody is interested in us. You know, it's very arrogant to say, "We are unique. We are special. Uh, the aliens are coming to haunt us." They don't care about us. We are just like ants on a sidewalk, you know? And at the same time, we might learn from them, you know? So if we a- a- approach this from a modest perspective, that we are not really the sharpest cookie in the jar, then by looking at the sky, we may learn something about more advanced technologies that we can bring here, for example. You know, suppose we see a technology that we didn't even dream about, it would be a better investment of our time to learn about it than to go to Wall Street or to Silicon Valley. Instead of us developing it over hundreds of years, you know, suddenly you see something that, you know, we can use here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, let me push back on a couple of these things.
- ALAvi Loeb
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
First of all, I, I don't think... if people do believe that there are... that there is alien life, I don't think they necessarily think that we are the best of, of life in the cosmos. I think most people agree there's room for improvement when it comes-
- ALAvi Loeb
Oh, definitely.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to the human race.
- ALAvi Loeb
If, if-
- JRJoe Rogan
But we are clearly the most advanced animal that we're aware of-
- ALAvi Loeb
Here, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that we're aware of that we can prove currently. Right.
- ALAvi Loeb
But we are not smart. Look at the newspaper.
- JRJoe Rogan
But we're v- but we're not perfect, but we're far more... I w- I don't... ev- the word intelligent is a rough word, right? It's, uh, we're definitely more intelligent than a lot of other animals that we can observe, but what we can do that is interesting is we can radically change and manipulate our environment.
- ALAvi Loeb
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think it's preposterous to think that that wouldn't be interesting to another species. Now, if you're thinking of something that's infinitely more advanced than us, millions and millions of years more advanced than us, it probably won't be impressed with us, but we have, uh, uh, we take-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
... biologists go to the jungle to study bugs. I mean, we have people that spend a, a large portion of their life looking for strange little mammals-
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, but-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
... that live in the, in the forest.
- ALAvi Loeb
But think about it. Our technology is evolving on a three-year time scale.
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
So, you know, we ... It's a century old, the technologies we have. So, think what it would be 100 years from now, 1,000 years from now-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
... a million years from now, a billion years. I believe that an advanced technological civilization probably builds a cocoon around itself, is not really interested in establishing contact with lesser civilizations like ours-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
But why wouldn't it be?
- ALAvi Loeb
Because we are, you know, not, uh ... First of all, the only thing that can happen as the result of interaction with us is that they will downgrade their lifestyle, you know, uh, their quality of life. So, the only way for us to learn about them is from the trash they throw out. You know, just like, uh, uh, investigative journalists looking through the, the trash of celebrities in Hollywood, you know? The ... To find out what, what are they doing, and, uh, but, um, I don't think they will care much about us.
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
I do. Let me offer you up another possibility. What if they have recognized that all life, regardless of the ingredients in the cake and how they're put together, that all life seeks innovation and seeks to advance, and that this is a constant throughout the universe, that things go from single-celled organisms, to multi-celled organisms, to interstellar travelers, and that they continue along this path as long as they don't fall into a few possible scenarios that could lead to ultimate destruction-
- ALAvi Loeb
Exactly, but-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
... like nuclear war, like climate change, like all the things that we're involved in right now.
- ALAvi Loeb
But, but that's, that's the point. I think advanced civilizations are probably short-l- uh, I mean, like ours, are short-lived because of stupidity. Now, look, for example, uh, the concept of racism. You know, that's not new. Uh, you know, there was the, uh, the Nazi regime, uh, okay, in the second World War, and racism is still around us. What is it based on? That somehow the color of the skin of a person, you know, makes a difference as to who the-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
Well, it's essentially tribalism, right? Because it's, uh, if it's not the color of the skin, then it's the origin of the religion, then it's the-
- ALAvi Loeb
But it, it's stupidity. It's not-
- 23:53 – 31:50
How to search scientifically: technosignatures, pollution, and funding priorities
- ALAvi Loeb
Now, my problem is, why couldn't science, given that, uh, you know, there are billions of earth-sun systems within just the Milky Way galaxy-
- GSGuest (unidentified third speaker, likely calling in or added segment)
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
... and then a trillion galaxies like the Milky Way in the observable volume of the universe, you know? Why can't the mainstream of astronomy simply say, conservatively, you know, just assuming the most conservative, not speculative assumption, conservatively, we are at the middle of the road, you know, kind of life, uh, it's very likely that we're not unique and special.... and let's just look for evidence, you know, search for it. Why should that, there be a taboo on discussing this subject? That makes no sense. For example, astronomers are now thinking, contemplating new telescopes of the future that will cost billions of dollars to taxpayers, okay, that would search for oxygen in the atmospheres of other planets around other stars because oxygen could be indicative of life, microbial life. I say it will never be conclusive, such a search, even if it costs billions of dollars, because the Earth, for two billion years, the first two billion years of the Earth's history, didn't have much oxygen in its, in its atmosphere. There were microbes, but the oxygen level was quite low, and then it suddenly rose after two billion years, half of its life. So not finding oxygen doesn't mean there is no life. And then if you find oxygen, it can be produced by many natural processes, like breaking water molecules or other things. So it will never be conclusive. How can you make a conclusive statement if you find industrial pollution in the same atmosphere? You just search for CFCs. These are the molecules produced by refrigerating systems, by industries. If you find evidence for that, there is no way that nature can make these m- very complex molecules naturally. So I say to the mainstream of astronomy, use the same instruments and motivate them-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
... by this question of, can we detect industrial pollution? And I wrote a paper about it, and the thing is, the public is extremely interested in this question, and the public funds science. So how can the scientific community shy away from a question that it can address with existing technology, you know? When the public is very interested in that, how can there be a taboo on this question? That's the thing that really puzzles me. Now, you know, I wasn't working in this area until the last five years or so. I was working in studying black holes, studying the universe, and I came across, uh, a number of ideas that led me in- in- into this, uh, rabbit hole, into this, uh, subject. Now I'm about to publish this book at a popular level, but also a textbook six months later, that describes all the signs that we have related to the search for life outside Earth, far from Earth. And I'm just amazed that, um, it's not part of the mainstream, you know? It's really surprising to me, and I think it's inappropriate because you look at physics, theoretical physic, there are lots of speculative ideas in it. Like, people talk about extra dimensions, the multiverse, you know, supersymmetry, superstring theory. All of these have no evidence to their credit, you know? There is no experimental test, not even thought about, you know, like in the next decade, the next two decades. But these ideas are part of the mainstream. So you see physicists giving each other awards and doing intellectual gymnastics, you know, just demonstrating that they're smart, and to me, that's an unhealthy situation in physics. You know, you can do it in mathematics where it's completely detached from, uh, any application to reality. But in physics we are supposed to describe reality, and yet you have this intellect. So it's as if the physics community, some parts of it, decided that the most important task is to demonstrate that you're smart.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
And that is really strange to me because, you know, we're supposed to understand nature, not show that we are smart. You know, Einstein made three mi- three big mistakes at the end of his career in the 1930s. He argued that black holes don't exist, gravitational waves don't exist, and quantum mechanics doesn't have spooky action at a distance. You know, he argued all these three things at the end of his career when he was the most experienced, you know, and he was wrong. We have experimental data that shows that he was wrong on all three. And what is the lesson from that? Even the smartest person, you know, that was last century in physics can be wrong if he works on the frontier because you never know exactly wh- where the truth lies, okay? You have to take risks, and if people want to just demonstrate that they are smart, it's better not to take risks. And how do you not take risks? If you work on ideas that will never be tested against data, against evidence. So if you work on superstring theory or on extra dimensions or on the multiverse, you can do intellectual gymnastics and impress your colleagues that you're smart and you will get jobs, you will get recognition, you will get awards. If that's your goal, that's a completely legitimate framework, but I see it as a violation of our commitment as physicists to understand nature. You know, it's not really about us. Physics is a dialogue with nature. You listen to nature, you see what the experiments are telling you, and you learn, and perhaps you were wrong. You take risks. It's not about your image. It's not getting more likes on Twitter. So that's why I don't really care what my colleagues say. If this object looked unusual, I just talk about it the way I would talk about any other anomaly, and people were asking, you know, "Why isn't he backing down?" Well, I will back down as soon as there is evidence, you know, if I saw a photograph showing that it's a rock-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
... or if I saw some other objects like it that we definitely have clear evidence that they are naturally produced, then I will give up on it. Like, and I'm not afraid of being wrong, you know, that's- that's part of any work on the frontiers.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is my thoughts on the- the quantum physics aspect of this. I think there's not enough people that understand what they're doing to criticize them so there's no social pressure. The difference between that and the concept of exploring extraterrestrial life is extraterrestrial life is inexorably connected to nonsense. It's inexorably-
- ALAvi Loeb
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... collected... It's connected to crazy people-
- ALAvi Loeb
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that think that they're talking to aliens-
- ALAvi Loeb
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and that they're channeling people from another planet-
- ALAvi Loeb
But, but I have to answer, I have an answer to that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ALAvi Loeb
Suppose...... there was a whole literature on COVID-19 that is completely fictitious. You know, like, people were saying crazy things about COVID-19 that make no sense whatsoever, and that was a, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, you can find them.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those people out there.
- ALAvi Loeb
Suppose there were, there were books about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ALAvi Loeb
There were films about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
Now, would that mean that scientists, reputable scientists should not work on a vaccine for COVID-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, no, no.
- ALAvi Loeb
No. So, who cares if there are people that say nonsense?
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's, this is why that doesn't apply.
- 31:50 – 44:16
Academic incentives: ego, tenure, and ‘be more like kids’
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I, I, I think it's a, I think it's a side effect of our social interactions. And I think a lot of professors, a lot of people in academia, they come from, you know, maybe a so- more socially awkward environment. They come from, uh, uh, a lot of people that get into teaching, a lot of people that get into being professors, they weren't like the class king, they weren't like the most popular person. And social interactions with them, uh, you know, maybe they were bullied. Maybe they, like, uh, Dr. Carl Hart, who's a, an academic who was on a couple days ago, was actually talking about this very subject.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that a lot of academics, they, uh, they s- they try to undermine other people's work. And they, they do so in kind of a bullying fashion.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, because it's all about the ego. You see?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
I was asked by the Harvard Gazette, the Harvard University Gazette, which is the Pravda of Harvard.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ALAvi Loeb
You know, the, this official, uh ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
... newspaper of Harvard.
- JRJoe Rogan
I like how you put it.
- ALAvi Loeb
They asked me, uh, "What is the one thing you would like to change about the world?" You know, a very big question.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
So, I wrote an essay. I said, "I want my colleagues to behave more like kids."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
Because, as a kid, I remember that, you know, I was mostly curious about the world. I, I would not be afraid of making mistakes. I wasn't worried about my ego or my ... Something really strange, uh, happens to those kids that take risks and are not worried about themself so much. Uh, something bad happens to them when they become tenured professors in academia. Tenure is supposed to give you the freedom to explore, you know, directions that might, may turn out to be wrong.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
You know, that's what Einstein demonstrated at the end of his career. So, you would expect people to take advantage of that. But instead, once professors become tenured for life, meaning that there is no risk to their job, they are starting to pursue honors and awards.
- JRJoe Rogan
Status.
- ALAvi Loeb
Status, recognition.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
They are afraid of making mistakes. They build th- these echo chambers, where they have students and post-docs repeating their mantras so that their voice will sound louder.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
So that they will get even more recognition. Now, I say, this, you know, the scientific inquiry is not about us. It's about the dialogue with nature, trying to figure out what nature is. It's not about elevating our status, our image. You know, we will all die in several decades, so, you know, it's really not that. Now, uh, you know, actually, Lex Fridman was asking me, "Avi, you know so much. Uh, what do you think is the meaning of life?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Heaven.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, (laughs) and I told him, "Look, um, I don't, I think we just exist." You know, any meaning that we assign now, uh, will go away in a billion years, 'cause the sun will boil off the oceans on Earth, there will be no life on Earth, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
All of these things that we call meaning, they are really temporary in the big, big scheme. We should just enjoy the process, just like eating good food, you know. I will not mention another example. Uh, you know, doing these, like eating good food, you enjoy the process. So, learning about the world, figuring out what the world is, is very enjoyable. You know, I, I, if I realize something nobody else did, and understand something that nobody else did, it gives me pleasure. So, just the process of doing that, that gives me meaning, because I enjoy it. You know? So, you should live your life in a way that you enjoy it. If you like good food, that's good enough. You know, you can live your life just eating. You know, that's what animals do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah. Right? Uh, can have sex, you can do all kinds. But if you want a deeper sort of satisfaction, I think understanding the world is what humans are capable of doing. And, and that's really a deeper level of, of enjoying life, so to speak.
- 44:16 – 54:48
Returning to ’Oumuamua: speed, discovery timing, and comparison to Borisov
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, w- w- to go back to Oumuamua, um, the, you, you were saying that it's, it was moving at a speed that, uh, was inconsistent with something that's being thrown from the sun, and that it moved faster than any rocket that we can shoot out.
- ALAvi Loeb
True.
- JRJoe Rogan
How, how fast was it moving?
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, it wa- uh, I- it was moving at, uh, when it went close to us, uh, over 50 kilometers per second, which is, you know, think about it, well, of order 30 miles per second, second, not hour.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, so very fast. Now, um, by the time we spotted it, it was already moving away from us. So it's just like seeing a guest for dinner and then noticing that the guest is weird once it left through the front door into the dark street. So you can't ... By now, you know, as it, as it moved out, by now, it's extremely faint. It's a million times fainter than it was when it was close to us.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the normal speed of a comet?
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, it's, um, uh, uh, at least twice as slower. So all the comets and asteroids we have seen before are bound to the sun.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
And so they come from the outer part of the solar system, they are sinking on, uh, uh, an orbit that almost goes towards the sun, but not quite, and so they pass near us, some of them. Most of them are moving far away from us, so we don't see any cometary tail. And, uh, they basic- ... Because they are bound to the sun, they are not moving as fast as an object that came from outside that is falling, you know, the ... And we could tell that it is an interstellar object. That was the first thing noticed. We didn't expect it because I wrote a paper about, uh, 12 years earlier saying that this telescope in Hawaii that discovered Oumuamua, and that's why it has this name by the way, because it's, it means a scout in the Hawaiian language, a messenger from far away.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
Oumuamua. Uh, it was discovered by a telescope called Pan-STARRS on Mount Haleakala in Maui, in Hawaii. We actually visited that observatory in July 2017 with my family. We were on vacation in Maui.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
But back then, they didn't spot Oumuamua when it was approaching us at that time. They spotted it only when, in October that year, when it was receding away. If we would have known about it when it was approaching us, you know, we could have, in principle, sent a CubeSat, a satellite, with, um, a camera that would meet it, uh, halfway and take a photograph.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
A closer ... Uh, not only that we didn't spot it approaching us, but we also didn't suspect that it's something special. Now, there was a second object that came later, uh, called Borisov. It's called after, um, a Russian amateur astronomer, Gennady Borisov, uh, that discovered it by chance, and it looked just like a comet. A typical comet with a cometary tail, also came from interstellar space. Just what we expected. So then people came to me and said, "Okay, you see, this one is a comet. It's interstellar as well. Doesn't it convince you that Oumuamua was also natural in origin?" And I said, "You know, when, when I h- went to the first date with my wife, I thought that she's special and unique. The fact that I met a lot of women since then didn't change that opinion. I still think that she's special." So the fact that we saw Borisov like a typical, regular, usual comet after we saw Oumuamua that didn't look like a comet doesn't change my opinion about Oumuamua.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you think they were just hastily looking to dismiss your ob- observations? Without really ...
- ALAvi Loeb
Well, it was not my observa-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Any observations. Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
But they were trying to make the case that it's also natural.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
So, you know, the community as a whole, there was a group of astronomer that came together and said, "It is natural. It is unusual, but it's probably natural." They just said that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
And it reminded me of a story about the, in 19- at the, in the early 1930s, there was a group, like, of 30 physicists that decided to write a book showing that Einstein's theory of relativity is wrong. So when Einstein was asked about it, he said, um, "You know, why do you need 30 physicists to write such a book? You know, one of them would be enough. You know, if he makes a good argument, that would show that my theory is wrong." So a kid can make a good argument and show that something is wrong. You don't need a group. The only reason you need a group of people is, if- i- if the, if there is sort of a herd, you know, just like in Africa. If you have a group of lions coming together, then they feel much more strong, you know? And, and so th- so it's just an, a sign of authority. They want to establish authority. My point about Oumuamua is, you don't need a group of, you know, of astronomers to come together and say that it's natural. I just want them to look at the evidence and explain it.
- JRJoe Rogan
I, I, I appreciate that. Now, the, the speed in which it was traveling, you, you said that it's, uh, twice as fast, at least, as, as the-
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... average comet? Have there been other things that have been observed that are as fast as it?
- ALAvi Loeb
No, this was the first-... object that we saw coming from outside the solar system. So it was the fastest at the place where we saw it. The fastest ever. Because all the other objects were bound to the sun.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
And by the way, there is this, uh, principle that, uh, is called the Copernican principle that says, "We are never at the privileged time or space." You know, Copernicus was arguing that we are not at the center of the universe. We're not at the center of the world. And you can generalize it and say also that we are never at a special time, okay? So if we saw this object over a period of a few years that the survey of Pan-STARRS was going on, in the region that, of the Earth's orbit around the sun, that means that there are many more out there. You know, you can't, you can't just be lucky that over a few years you see the only object that passes in our vicinity over billions of years. E- e- e- you know, that makes no sense. So there will be many more that we will find in the future if we just look. And in three years, there would be another telescope, much more sensitive than Pan-STARRS, called the Vera Rubin Observatory that could see one such object every month, you know? The only thing that, uh, complicates the picture is that Elon Musk wants to launch all these Space X, um, all these communication satellites, and uh, you know, they would ... They reflect sunlight, so when they go in the dark sky they, they appear, uh, on the telescope images. So we have to know where they are and subtract them off, but that's all.
- 54:48 – 1:03:49
Natural explanations offered by critics (dust bunny, hydrogen iceberg)
- JRJoe Rogan
Now everything you've said is very rational and makes perfect sense. What are the arguments against this? Like when your colleagues disagree with you.
- ALAvi Loeb
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
What fuel do they possibly have?
- ALAvi Loeb
Ex- for example, they say it's never aliens. It's never aliens.
- JRJoe Rogan
Never, never, until the aliens come. I mean, what, what do they think-
- ALAvi Loeb
Well, like what is-
- JRJoe Rogan
... about things like Commander David Fravor's interpretations of the experience that he had, uh, off of the coast of San Diego where something moved from 60,000 plus feet above sea level to one in a second?
- ALAvi Loeb
On that day I would say, on, on, on a UFO, unidentified flying objects, I think the scientific community should invest some effort at, you know, examining these reports.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
Basically, you can deploy a whole set of instruments-... in the ocean where the Nimitz, uh, uh, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
... carrier was, and search for objects similar to what was re- uh, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ALAvi Loeb
... to the reports, and then do a scientific study of this rather than dismissing it and moving on to work on extra dimensions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
You know, I... Given that the public is so curious about these issues, I just find it inappropriate not to listen to them. By the way, I don't think of science as an occupation of the elite. It's not something that is supposed to elevate you to a higher status. You know, when a plumber comes to my home to fix a problem with, uh, the toilet or with the, with the pipe, you know, I help the plumber and we figure out what the problem is based on all the clues that... So, this is my way of life. I, I think about a problem in the sink or in the toilet just like I think about a problem in physics, you know. Trying to apply common sense, look at all the evidence, the clues, and figure out what's going on. And I don't think... I think anyone, even without professional education, should be able to follow what the scientists are doing. But my frien- my colleagues argue, you know, we should be quiet as long as we are not sure about the interpretation. You know, once we decide that we have the right answer, we come out to the public and tell the public what it is. Because otherwise nobody would believe us that there is global warming, for example. My point is exactly the opposite. I say nobody would believe you if you don't show, expose the process by which you arrive at the conclusion. So most of science is not, uh, finalized. You know, most of the scientific process does not have enough evidence. We don't know exactly what's going on. So we're trying to collect clues, evidence. And that's part of the process. It's a learning experience. Sometimes we make mistakes. It's completely human to make mis-... You know, we should show the public that it's okay. The public will understa- that, you know, the public will understand that because, you know, it's part of our experience. And then when scientists have enough evidence to conclude something, the public will believe it now because they see how the process goes, that as you collect enough evidence, eventually it's clear. Instead of forcing scientists to be quiet until the last moment and then they look like teachers in a class coming out with a press announcement of some result and, you know, every now and then those press conferences end up being wrong.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the- their quarrel with you is that they think that your, your assumption that it's alien in nature is incorrect or hasty?
- ALAvi Loeb
No. What, what...
- JRJoe Rogan
What is their...
- ALAvi Loeb
We shouldn't discuss it because they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Shouldn't discuss it at all.
- ALAvi Loeb
We shouldn't discuss it because the alien interpretation could be contemplated, you know, in many other o- occasions. But I say, you know, this is not a, a typical situation. We have the first object from interstellar space. It looks strange. Go for it. You know, let, let's collect more evidence. Uh, the public is interested. So what's the problem? I don't see any problem with discussing this possibility, putting it on the table, and looking for more evidence. Why would there be a taboo on this subject?
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what is their interpretation of the evidence? What, what is th-... When they... When you lay out all the things that you said about the shape of this object, the speed of it, where it's coming from, all, all these variables-
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that are very unusual.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah. So they say each of them is indeed unusual, but probably there is a natural explanation. And then they say, "It's within my comfort zone to just ignore it. Let's forget about it. It's natural."
- JRJoe Rogan
The first-ever interstellar object moving twice as fast as any comet we've ever observed, with no tail, with a shiny reflective surface that has an extremely unusual shape, that's 10 times longer than it is wide, and they just wanna ignore it.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems silly.
- ALAvi Loeb
And it's flat, most likely flat-
- 1:03:49 – 1:08:56
How we actually observed it: point-source light and inference limits
- JRJoe Rogan
Now this object, the way it's detected, y- y- y- you, you can't see a clear image of it, correct?
- ALAvi Loeb
No, you can't, because it's too small. From the distance, uh, it had from Earth, you know, our telescopes are not big enough to resolve it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, how do we detect it? What are we detecting?
- ALAvi Loeb
We're, we detect the reflected light from it, the sunlight that, that bounces off its surface, we can see it. So, you know, it's a s- it's just reflecting some light and we see it as a point source. But if we were to di- discover it when it was approaching us, we could have sent a camera that would come close to it and take a photograph.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But there's no... So, there's no images of it that any of you can look at?
- ALAvi Loeb
No. No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Th- so when the, the machine, when the observatory is detecting it, they are detecting it as data?
- ALAvi Loeb
As a point source of light.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
A source of light that cannot be resolved, you know, like, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
There it is. That's what, that's what they were seeing?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes. So, the thing that is circled is Oumuamua and all these other dots that you see are trails of stars. Now, Oumuamua was moving in the sky very fast, but if we f- focus on it, then the stars are moving relative to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
And that's why you see from, you know, a sequence of snapshots, you see this, this trailing trails of stars, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, uh, is there anyone who agrees with you?
- ALAvi Loeb
Well, the people that I worked with.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah, that's what I mean. Uh, are there other astronomers that have stepped out with you and said, "I think he's got some really good points here."
- ALAvi Loeb
Not stepped out, but, um, you know, behind the scenes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ahh.
- ALAvi Loeb
One of the reasons I wrote it up is because, um, you know, uh, people that I respect told me that they think s- this is really unusual.
- JRJoe Rogan
The behind the scenes people?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't wanna step out in public?
- ALAvi Loeb
That's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't that un- unusual?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, but I don't have-
- JRJoe Rogan
Or not even unusual. It's just sad.
- ALAvi Loeb
It is sad. The entire situation is sad. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's not that sad because y- you're, you know, a lot of people are discussing it because the fact that you have the courage to talk about it openly.
- ALAvi Loeb
Right.
- 1:08:56 – 1:13:09
Next-generation surveys: Vera Rubin Observatory and satellite interference risks
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, this, uh, much more powerful observatory that you're saying comes online in three years.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Where is that gonna be located?
- ALAvi Loeb
In Chile.
- JRJoe Rogan
Chile?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that the VLT?
- ALAvi Loeb
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
That, that's-
- ALAvi Loeb
Well, there is a VLT there in Chile as well, but not far f-
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's already up?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, that's already up. Uh, this is called the Vera Rubin Observatory.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's even more potent than the VLT?
- ALAvi Loeb
Oh, it's a different instrument. It, it's a telescope that will survey the sky. The VLT is focusing on a smaller region of the sky. This is a survey telescope that would look-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
... through the sky. Now, the purpose of Pan-STARRS or this telescope, you know, was originally defined by Congress that said, uh, "Astronomers should find all the objects that are endangering life on Earth." You know, all the killer asteroids that could wipe us out.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
Because the dinosaurs were killed by a giant stone, you know, a rock.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
S- the size of a big city, like Manhattan, you know, uh, tens of kilometers in size. And it must have been an amazing sight to be a, a, you know, a dinosaur back then, 'cause you see this rock coming at you, and then boom, and you're gone. Uh, they didn't have astronomy, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ALAvi Loeb
The dinosaurs didn't have science, so they couldn't really forecast this risk coming at them. We have science, so we can, uh, at least alert ourself to that danger, and perhaps deflect, nudge those killer asteroids that are heading our way. And, you know, there are various ways to nudge them off. You can evaporate part of their surface, just give them a little kick so that they miss the Earth. But first, you need to find them. So that's why Pan-STARRS was funded, and i- it's one of the goals of, uh, the Vera Rubin Observatory to identify all these objects that are endangering. But in the process of doing that, you know, Oumuamua was discovered.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. Um, d- so when this new one goes, uh, online in Chile, will they be looking specifically for the same kinds of things that...
- ALAvi Loeb
No. So science, you, you know, you just survey the sky. You don't need to know what you are expecting to find, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's just a blanket view of the sky?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, it's just sur- uh, it's serving the sky.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then when they see an object that's moving...
- ALAvi Loeb
Fast, and then if you see that it looks weird, just like Oumuamua-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ALAvi Loeb
... you can follow up on it.
- 1:13:09 – 1:22:08
Big-picture implications: preserving life, future evolution, and alien biology
- ALAvi Loeb
That's why I think we should event- we will eventually have to leave Earth, because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Of junk?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah, because of all the, you know, we're self-inflicted wounds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
Uh, but the way I see it is also like, you know, the printing press of Gutenberg. Um, that, uh, once it was established, it produced many copies of the Bible.... and before that there were very few copies and each of them was extremely precious. But after the printing press by Gutenberg, there were many copies. So if one of them got damaged, you, you wouldn't worry too much. So I think that we should produce what we have here on earth. You know, currently all our eggs are in one basket on earth, but if we spread them in space, in other places, like going to Mars, going to the stars, then if something bad happens on earth, it wouldn't be, it won't be that bad. You know, it will be one copy out of many. And you might ask, "How can we do that? How can we avoid..." So you know, there is this story in the Bible, in the Old Testament about Noah. It's called Noah's Ark. He was worried about the great flood that will, that will come, and wanted to preserve, uh, animals. So he built an ark. And by the way, the dimensions of the ark are mentioned explicitly in the Bible, and they are very similar to the dimensions of Oumuamua, but by coincidence. Uh, anyway, so he put the animals on it and saved them. Now, what is the moral of this? How can we preserve life that we have on earth by sending out a spaceship? So you might think, "Oh, if we build a big enough spaceship, we can put whales, we can put elephants, we can put birds on it." That's not the smart thing, uh, thing to do. Uh, you can just take a small spacecraft, a CubeSat, put a very, uh, advanced computer system on it with artificial intelligence and a 3D printer, and you load to the computer system the DNA information of all the animals that you want to reproduce somewhere else. And then you produce them synthetically in other places using the raw materials that are on other planets. So you just send this spacecraft, I call it Noah's spaceship. You send it to those places and you produce what you want out of the raw materials.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wouldn't you think that if some civilization got that advanced, that they wouldn't be satisfied with the design that we currently experience? Like the design of the animals, the design of the people, wouldn't, wouldn't they want to make that better?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like make people that can breathe underwater?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Make people that don't get cancer?
- ALAvi Loeb
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- ALAvi Loeb
And I think, uh, maybe the ultimate, uh, you know, we are evolving.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
You know, we started just like animals and, uh, we are getting better, but eventually it may be silicone-based things-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
... that, that will, uh, be the future.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's a speculation that people have when they look at the archetypal alien, right? With the large head and no genitals.
- ALAvi Loeb
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That what that is, is some sort of, uh, an ad- advanced version of intelligent life. Like that life, as life becomes sort of, uh, immersed in the world of technology, it becomes, uh, they have these symbiotic relationships where the, their parts get replaced by artificial parts, which we see now-
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... with people. We see artificial limbs and artificial-
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you know?
- ALAvi Loeb
Yeah. And I think, you know, any form of life, even biological life that we find on another planet, we will be shocked when we see it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ALAvi Loeb
For example, the nearest star to us is called Proxima Centauri. Now it's not like the sun. It's much smaller, uh, 12% of the mass of the sun, and it's much fainter, but it has a planet close enough so that life can be on that planet. The planet has a permanent day side. It's facing the star because it's so close to, to the star, 20 times closer than the earth is from the sun. That planet, Prox- Proxima b, is facing the star with the same side. So there is a permanent day side-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like the moon.
- ALAvi Loeb
Yes, exactly like the moon, and a permanent night side. And the per- permanent day side is warmer than the permanent night side. That's what we think. Now, my daughters said that, you know, the real estate value would be highest in between the day side and the night side because you will have a permanent sunset strip there. And you know, if you want a home, that would be a perfect vacation place, you know, kind of.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
Episode duration: 2:26:59
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Transcript of episode EhU-yzauNWE
