Joe Rogan Experience #1609 - Elon Musk

1. 0:00 – 1:46

   Starship gets “more pointy”: design jokes vs real engineering

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Was it like So it was like No. That's the, uh, Sacha Baron Cohen movie?

   2. EMElon Musk0:18

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      I never saw that one.

   4. EMElon Musk0:19

      Well, there's a scene where he's, uh (laughs) , they, they, they show him the new missile they've developed and, uh, but it has kind of a round, round head. And he says, uh, "You need to make it more pointy," (laughs) to- to- to his engineers. And, uh, actually that's what I also said, I said the same thing. Um, you know, "Star ship, we need to make it more pointy."

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:43

      Did you say that?

   6. EMElon Musk0:44

      Mm-hmm. And we made it more-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:44

      Because of the movie?

   8. EMElon Musk0:45

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:46

      Really?

   10. EMElon Musk0:46

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Hold on. (laughs)

   12. EMElon Musk0:48

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Hold on. It's going, I just have the main camera on you. Okay.

   14. EMElon Musk0:52

       Okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       (laughs) that's, you literally told them to make the star ship more pointy because of the movie The Dictator?

   16. EMElon Musk0:59

       Yep.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       (laughs)

   18. EMElon Musk1:01

       Um, they, and they know it too. It's not like they-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       (laughs)

   20. EMElon Musk1:03

       It's not like they haven't, they're unaware of it. (laughs) And I thought it would be funny if we made the rocket more pointy, so we did.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       Did it have any effect on the aerodynamics?

   22. EMElon Musk1:10

       No.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Nothing?

   24. EMElon Musk1:12

       No, we can make it way blunter and it'd be fine.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       But was, is it better to be pointier? Like if, if it wasn't for the movie-

   26. EMElon Musk1:17

       It's arguably slightly worse. But like- (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       (laughs)

   28. EMElon Musk1:22

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:22

       But more fun for you.

   30. EMElon Musk1:23

       Yeah, it looks cooler.
2. 1:46 – 4:17

   When Starship will carry people & why explosions are expected in testing

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:46

      How long do you think it's going to be before you have, like, regular flights with that, where you can take off and land and, like an airplane, where it will be very consistent?

   2. EMElon Musk1:56

      With our extra-pointy rocket?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:57

      Yeah, with your extra-pointy rocket.

   4. EMElon Musk2:03

      Do you mean Earth-to-Earth transport?

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      Eh, mm...

   6. EMElon Musk2:06

      Or, or Earth-

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:07

      Just any kind of-

   8. EMElon Musk2:08

      ... or, or Moon to Earth, anywhere. Yes, people.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:09

      Yeah, people. Anytime where you could just do it with people-

   10. EMElon Musk2:11

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       ... and have them, have it land all the time.

   12. EMElon Musk2:16

       Um, I think it will probably two years away.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Two years away?

   14. EMElon Musk2:18

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       That's, that's, that's really nice. Two years is pretty cool.

   16. EMElon Musk2:23

       Two years for people. We'll, we'll, we'll have a lot of flights between now and then.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       That's crazy. That's-

   18. EMElon Musk2:27

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       ... 2023 is not that far away. That'll be there before you know it.

   20. EMElon Musk2:31

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:31

       Wow.

   22. EMElon Musk2:32

       2023, time flies.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       How many times have you had explosions with those things?

   24. EMElon Musk2:36

       (laughs) When you're on a rocket. Um, I don't know, like, uh, quite a few, six maybe?

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       (laughs)

   26. EMElon Musk2:43

       Five or six.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       What are those like? What is it like when you watch it explode? When it's supposed to land and it just... poh!

   28. EMElon Musk2:51

       You know, w- this, this is a test program.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       Right.

   30. EMElon Musk2:54

       We're ac- we expect it to, to explode.
3. 4:17 – 5:40

   What makes Starship unprecedented: size, thrust, and the goal of Mars

   1. EMElon Musk4:17

      We're, we're getting to orbit this year. Our goal is to get to orbit this year.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. EMElon Musk4:20

      So, and, and I'm not sure if people totally understand, like, star ship is the, the largest flying object ever made. Uh, this thing will be about o- over 5,000 tons, uh, weight on lift off.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:34

      What?

   5. EMElon Musk4:34

      It's going to go straight up five, 5,000 tons.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      Wow.

   7. EMElon Musk4:37

      Um, this is much heavier than any aircraft by far. There's no, no, no aircraft even comes close to this, uh, weight. Um, and it's going straight up. We- aircraft can't go straight up. So it's like the, it, it's got more than twice, it will have more than twice the thrust of a Saturn V.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:52

      Really?

   9. EMElon Musk4:53

      Yeah, yeah. It's like a big rocket.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       Why does it need that much thrust?

   11. EMElon Musk4:57

       Well, we're trying-

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       'Cause you want to go to Mars? Or is this like-

   13. EMElon Musk5:01

       We're just, we're, we're trying to, uh, make life multi-planetary. You know, uh, extend life beyond Earth. And in order to do that, you have to have high tonnage to Mars. And that means you need a big rocket and you got to fly a lot.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:15

       So the reason why it has twice the thrust of the Saturn V is to plan for these interstellar trips?

   15. EMElon Musk5:22

       Uh, interplanetary.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:22

       Or the interplanetary trips.

   17. EMElon Musk5:24

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       So when you, when you're doing this and you're y- you're, you're developing these systems thinking about regular trips to other planets. But you're, you're not, you're not just trying to get into orbit right now, you're trying to get into orbit with something that eventually could scale up.

4. 5:40 – 9:02

   The ‘holy grail’: fully and rapidly reusable rockets like airplanes

   1. EMElon Musk5:40

      Yeah, we know how to get to orbit. We've done that a lot. So the, the really hard thing is we need to have a fully and rapidly reusable rocket where the, where all elements of the rocket are reused and they're reused quickly, like an aircraft. Um, and this has never been done. This is the holy grail of rocketry, is, is to, uh, have a fully, uh, reusable rocket. Then you need to go one step further, it needs to be fully and rapidly reusable.... you know, it's like-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:08

      Like a plane?

   3. EMElon Musk6:09

      Yeah, yeah. Like, plane lands, you, uh, you know, refuel it and take off again.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:14

      How do you have time? This, I, I, I never understand you in regards to the, the way you run multiple businesses simultaneously. I would think that something like this would require so much concentration, would require-

   5. EMElon Musk6:27

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:28

      ... I mean, you're, this, with, the, I would think this would be your whole being, trying to figure out how to work this.

   7. EMElon Musk6:34

      Um, yeah, well, I do work a lot.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:36

      (laughs) I mean-

   9. EMElon Musk6:37

      Um-

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:38

       ... but it's crazy. It's-

   11. EMElon Musk6:40

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       ... it's-

   13. EMElon Musk6:40

       And apologies for being ... for the reason I was late, as I was literally coming from, from, uh, you know, some critical meetings, just doing ... Normally, I'd be meeting until, uh, uh, working till like, uh, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       Every night?

   15. EMElon Musk6:53

       Not ... I mean, Saturday and Sunday, usually not, but sometimes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       How much do you sleep?

   17. EMElon Musk6:59

       About six hours.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:00

       Oh, that's pretty good.

   19. EMElon Musk7:02

       Yeah, so not that crazy.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       For you, that's ... I mean, for someone who does as much as you, that's actually ... that's impressive that you can squeeze that in.

   21. EMElon Musk7:10

       Yeah. I try... I've tried sleeping less, but then total, uh, productivity decreases.

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:16

       Yeah. So you feel like six is the number where it's the-

   23. EMElon Musk7:18

       Yeah, six. Six, uh, six. Four to six is I can ... That, um ... I, I don't find myself need- wanting more sleep than six.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       So when ... Like, with the Saturn V and the space shuttles and all, all these other rockets, you, they would, they would have these parts that would ... They would get the ship up into space, but they would descend down to Earth and crash into the ocean-

   25. EMElon Musk7:44

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:44

       ... and they would never use them again.

   27. EMElon Musk7:45

       That's right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:46

       How do you avoid that? Like, what is the difference between the way this, these things are structured? Like, y- ... Uh, the, the whole thing goes together, and then it lands together? (laughs)

   29. EMElon Musk7:56

       (laughs) Um, well, we're on the wrong planet for a single stage to orbit.

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:59

       Right.
5. 9:02 – 11:25

   Heat-shield tile engineering: expansion gaps, cracking, and plasma intrusion

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:02

      Now, the, the space shuttle, they had tiles, right? That was the, the way they avoided the, the heat. They had these heat shield-

   2. EMElon Musk9:10

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:10

      ... tiles. What, what do you use with the SpaceX rockets?

   4. EMElon Musk9:14

      Yeah, we're ... Uh, have a more advanced version of the shuttle tile, but you got to use, uh, some kind of, uh, ceramic essentially. Uh, it's, uh, you know, usually some form of, uh, silicon oxide, aluminum oxide, uh, some carbon perhaps thrown in there. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:31

      And is it, like, a one piece, or is it in tiles the way that-

   6. EMElon Musk9:35

      It's in tiles, yeah. We have f- ... Uh, hexagonal tiles. So you can see the ... With these, uh, starship, we've actually increased the size of the heat shield. So, uh, it's, it's tough, uh, because the, uh, the tiles are, um, uh, uh, the- they're, they're kind of like ... Uh, I don't ... There's not quite the right analogy, but kind of like dinner plates. Like, they're, they're brittle and they're, uh, they're, they, their, their coefficient of thermal expansion is different from, from metal, so metal will expand and contract differently from the tiles. Um, and the tiles also get super hot, while metal, it can be super cold, uh, 'cause it got cryogenic, uh, fluid behind it. So you got this differential expansion and contraction, um, which makes the gaps in the tiles expand and contract. But if the gaps get too big, then you get, uh, kind of the hot gas, sort of the plasma gets in down, down, we get plasma in the crack, and it's not ... That was bad. And then you're gonna melt the metal behind it. So ... But if they're too close, then they bang together and they crack. So got to get it just right, where they're, uh, that the gap's just right, and then they can, um ... The way that they're attached to the body, they can move around a little bit. Um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:48

      So there has to be some sort of room to move. It can't be one large piece of ceramic that you fit over the front.

   8. EMElon Musk10:56

      Yeah, it's y- you, it's ... You can't really make a, such a giant piece of ceramic, uh, 'cause you gotta, you gotta k- ... Uh, well, I guess you'd have, like, a super gigantic oven. Um, but, but you, you really need, uh, you need expansion joints, uh, expansion contraction joints. So it'd be very, uh, quite difficult to do a single piece tile. Um, the thing about, like, tiles for your, for a roof or something like that, you know-

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:21

      Mm-hmm.

   10. EMElon Musk11:21

       ... like, why don't we just make one tile for a roof? It's like, uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:24

       Right.

   12. EMElon Musk11:24

       ... that's not gonna work.

6. 11:25 – 15:25

   Booster landings, why Falcon 9 can’t reuse the upper stage, and the value of scale

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:25

      Now, these things have multiple stages. How many stages, uh, in these, the rocket boosters? When, when things are taking off, how many-

   2. EMElon Musk11:35

      A starship-

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:35

      How many-

   4. EMElon Musk11:35

      ... has two stages.

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:36

      So-

   6. EMElon Musk11:36

      So it's, uh, uh, uh, that's, that's the, the minimum number that you could do on a pl- on a planet like Earth. The gravity and ... Earth, earth's gravity is quite strong, um, and the, we have a thick atmosphere and strong gravity. So, uh, whereas, like, if you took off from Mars, uh, it would be ... It's, it's, like, relatively easy. Um, Mars is around, just under 40% of Earth's gravity. Uh, the moon is about a sixth. And, uh, take, getting to lunar orbit from the surface of the moon is easy. Um, like the-... uh, when, during Apollo, the Lunar Lander, uh, just the top half of the lunar na-, Lunar Lander was able to take off and get to lunar orbit. But to get to earth orbit, you need the giant rocket.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:22

      Mm-hmm.

   8. EMElon Musk12:22

      'Cause it's very non-linear. So-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:24

      So what happens to the first... when, when you take off and it separates into stages, how does the, the first stage get reused?

   10. EMElon Musk12:33

       Well, have you seen how the Falcon 9 stages work, where they come back and land?

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:38

       No.

   12. EMElon Musk12:38

       You haven't seen that?

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:39

       No.

   14. EMElon Musk12:40

       Wow.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:41

       (laughs)

   16. EMElon Musk12:43

       Um, yeah, I mean-

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:44

       Jamie's gonna pull it up. So does it come down with parachutes? Does it... like, how does it, uh, how does it land?

   18. EMElon Musk12:53

       No, it, it lands, uh, propulsively with the thrusters-

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:56

       So that-

   20. EMElon Musk12:56

       ... with the, with the engines.

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:57

       Really?

   22. EMElon Musk12:57

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:59

       So it's g-

   24. EMElon Musk13:00

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:00

       It's designed to take off... Here it is.

   26. EMElon Musk13:03

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       Oh, wow. So that is the bottom of the rocket that launches it straight up and then afterwards it comes down and lands like that.

   28. EMElon Musk13:19

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       That's amazing. And then the top piece can then land separately.

   30. EMElon Musk13:28

       Yes. Or well, in the case of Falcon 9, the upper stage burns up on re-entry. Um, Falcon 9 has, uh, there's the, the fairing, the top, the, where the satellites are contained in the top, and that, the fairing halves, uh, w- once it gets to space where the atmosphere is thin, it's still a long way from orbit, uh, but it's in space, so you no longer need the, the satellite doesn't need to, to be protected by the nose cone, the fairing. And so that, it's, it sort of splits in two and, and falls away. Um, and then, so with Falcon 9, we recover the, the fairing halves and r- recover the booster, but we lose the upper stage.
7. 15:25 – 18:15

   Rocket propulsion limits: Newton’s laws, methane/oxygen, and making fuel on Mars

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      Do you think there'll ever be a time where there's an alternative source of propulsion outside of just, of, of a, a burning fuel? Like is it possible that, that someone would develop a nuclear propulsion or, or some other method other than just burning large amounts of gasoline or rocket fuel?

   2. EMElon Musk15:45

      Uh, there's no way around Newton's third law, really. Um, so you, you basically have to expel mass. Uh, y- y- y- th- like when you get... th- there's a... you know, for a car that you could push against the ground, for an app, for an aircraft, you can react against the air, um, for a boat, you, you can react against water. In vacuum, there is nothing. So you, you, the only way to move is to react against yourself, to essentially shoot out gas at very high velocity, uh, so, and, and, and to transfer momentum, momen- momentum from, you know, to, to, to that gas that is going th- that way very rapidly. Um, so you want to accelerate a small amount of mass very fast in order to have you, the large amount of mass, accelerate slowly, because f- momentum is conserved (laughs) . So, yeah, um...

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:47

      So we're stuck with gas?

   4. EMElon Musk16:49

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:50

      Until some insane breakthrough dealing with gravity or something.

   6. EMElon Musk16:54

      S- s- yeah. And I mean, it's not gonna happen.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:55

      Not, not in our lifetime?

   8. EMElon Musk16:56

      Not in our lifetime (laughs) . No. Um, yeah. So, so you could... so ironically, uh, everything will go electric except for rockets.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:09

      Mm-hmm.

   10. EMElon Musk17:10

       Uh, it's just... now, you can make rockets indirectly electric by using electricity to create the fuel. Um, so you can take, uh, CO2 and H2O, uh, and create methane and oxygen from that. So CH- methane is CH4 and, and oxygen is O2. So, um, and for example, on, on Mars, which is a primarily CO2 atmosphere and there's a lot of water ice, is you can mine the ice, take the ice, um, and the CO2 from the atmosphere, um, simplifying this a lot, but run it over a catalyst and, uh, give it a lot of energy and, uh, you can get, uh, CH4 and O2 and you can, you can gracefully get your propellant on Mars. The, the rocket, by the way, is mostly oxygen. So for Starship, we're almost 80% oxygen. Um, it's only just over 20% fuel.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:13

       Really?

   12. EMElon Musk18:13

       Yeah.

8. 18:15 – 22:59

   Mars travel mechanics: transfer windows, 6 months vs 3 months, and missing Mars

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:15

      So is this as efficient as you anticipate it being, you know, any time in our lifetime? Like is there, is there, the trip to M- to Mars is like what six months? Is that what the idea is?

   2. EMElon Musk18:26

      Yeah, it's about six months.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:27

      Is, do you ever anticipate it being quicker than that? Is there, it-

   4. EMElon Musk18:30

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:30

      ... possible to make these things faster? Would you have to have solar sails? Like would you-

   6. EMElon Musk18:37

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:38

      ... want, would you-

   8. EMElon Musk18:38

      Solar sail would be very slow.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:39

      Would it be?

   10. EMElon Musk18:39

       Um, yeah, the, I mean, I'm trying to think of like the way to think about gravity here. And there's a lot of analogies. Um, but you know, uh, like you can think like space itself is, is curved, like it's like a funnel. Like if, if there's something that, uh, has, uh, a lot of mass, it's, it's creating like a funnel. And, um, so in the same way, like, like if you have a coin funnel and you let the, the, the coins, the coin thinks it's going in a straight line, uh, pr- pretty much. Um, you know, uh, the physicists out there might quibble with my analogies. But anyway, I'm trying to convey what gravity is like, uh, like a funnel. And so if you, if you want to get out of that gravity well, you actually need to go very fast parallel to the earth's surface. And the faster you go parallel to the earth's surface, the further out you spin. So, or you can think of like a marble in a funnel.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:37

       Mm-hmm.

   12. EMElon Musk19:37

       Like if you want that, get that marble to go far out, you just spin it sideways and, and it'll, it'll spiral out. And conversely, if you, uh, just due to the friction of, of, of the air friction and the rolling friction, it will slow down a little bit if you don't give it any, um, any push and will slowly spiral in. And then as it gets closer, it spins faster and faster 'cause this is how gravity basically works. Um, so, um, w- all the things in the solar system are spinning around this gigantic funnel in space time called the Sun. And we're like these tiny little dust motes, uh, going around the Sun. Um, and the further out you are away from the Sun, the s- the slower you move around in, in terms of degrees per second. So like the orbit of Mars, which is further away from the Sun is about two years. And Earth's one year, um, 'cause Mars is about 50% further away from the Earth than the, uh, from, from the Sun than the Earth is. So it's like Mars, we're, Earth is at one astronomical unit, Mars is like one and a half-ish, um, astr- uh, astronomical unit. So we're about eight light minutes away from the Sun, Mars is about 12. And, um, yeah, so when, when you want to go to Mars, you basically accelerate in the, along the same path of, of Earth going around the s- the Sun. And you time it such that as you w- you, you, that your acceleration gives you an elliptical orbit around the Sun where the tip of the ellipse, uh, intersects with Mars. So Mars is going around, you go tw- and you just time it to coincide with the tip of your ellipse being Mars. And that, that turns out to be about a six-month journey. Um, now you can speed that up and I think, uh, I mean, I could, could sort of see a way to get, make it happen in, say, three months, um, where the intersection with Mars would not be at the tip of the ellipse, but on the edge of the ellipse. Now that would mean the tip of the ellipse is out near Jupiter. So if you miss Mars, you're gonna end up at Jupiter, uh, Jupiter's orbit. So-

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:51

       That's not good.

   14. EMElon Musk21:52

       Yeah. And you're gonna be coming in hot.

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:55

       Yeah.

   16. EMElon Musk21:56

       So but, eh, that probably can get down to three months without that big of a problem. Getting it down to a month is hard. Um ... And then Earth and Mars are only in the same, uh, s- sort of, there's only about a six-month period every two years when, uh, Earth and Mars are aligned such that you can do the transfer. You know, you can totally imagine that if Mars is on the other side of the Sun, you can't get there because it's gotta go through the Sun. That's not gonna work.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:28

       Mm-hmm.

   18. EMElon Musk22:29

       So you got to time it, this is like about a quarter of every Mars year is when you can do the transfer. So one, six months every two years. Um, so if, if we are able to build or if humanity is able to build a city on Mars, um, people will probably remember, you know, which planetary conjunction they came on, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:54

       Mm.

   20. EMElon Musk22:55

       'Cause e- 'cause it's, you know, it's not like you just go all the time. You can only go every two years.

9. 22:59 – 27:27

   Building a self-sustaining Mars city & the ‘great filter’ framing

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:59

      When do you anticipate, like how, how much time before there's regular travel back and forth to Mars roughly? Like a real civilization on Mars.

   2. EMElon Musk23:18

      Well, I think it's gonna take a while to build a real civilization. (sighs) The I- the real, the real, (sighs) the threshold that really matters is if we're getting past the great filter, uh, is (sighs) do we have enough resources on Mars such that if the ear- if the spaceships from Earth stop coming for-

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:42

      You could survive.

   4. EMElon Musk23:42

      Yeah. So y- now it could only be just missing one little thing. It'd be like you're on a long sea voyage and the only thing you're missing is vitamin C. Uh, eh, still not g- uh ... It's only a matter of time, you know?

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:56

      Yeah.

   6. EMElon Musk23:56

      And then it's gonna be curtains. So you got to have, uh, all the things necessary to sustain civilization on Mars. Um, and the reason that the ships from Earth stop coming could be World War III or it could be due to a slow decline of civilization. So civilization here on Earth could end with a bang or a whimper.... um-

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:19

      Or natural disasters.

   8. EMElon Musk24:20

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:20

      Asteroid impacts-

   10. EMElon Musk24:21

       Yeah, that would be-

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:22

       ... super volcano.

   12. EMElon Musk24:22

       ... up, in the bang category. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan24:23

       Yeah. (laughs)

   14. EMElon Musk24:24

       But it could, it could also be, like, a whole series of things. Like, so like, what killed the dinosaurs?

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:28

       Right.

   16. EMElon Musk24:28

       Well, it wasn't just one thing, you know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan24:29

       Right.

   18. EMElon Musk24:30

       It was, like, a whole bunch of things happened in a row and, and, uh, you know, um, while they-

   19. JRJoe Rogan24:38

       D-

   20. EMElon Musk24:38

       ... they could have taken any one of those things, they had, like, three things happen and no dinosaurs.

   21. JRJoe Rogan24:43

       Which is kind of amazing that crocodiles are still here.

   22. EMElon Musk24:46

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan24:47

       Those fuckers.

   24. EMElon Musk24:48

       Well, cro- cro-

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:48

       They're resilient.

   26. EMElon Musk24:49

       Crocodiles, they, um, they'll, they'll l- live on decayed meat. They'll, they love rotten meat. And so, in a, any kind of disastrous sit- situation, there's a lot, a lot of dead creatures and the cr- crocodiles love it. So, um, that's why they're around. Crocodiles and bugs and mushrooms. Um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:11

       And, and shrews.

   28. EMElon Musk25:13

       Shrews, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:13

       Which is why we're here. (laughs)

   30. EMElon Musk25:15

       (laughs) Yeah, exactly. Our great, great, great, great, great, great grand-
10. 27:27 – 55:25

    UFOs, evidence standards, and why Musk doesn’t spend time on aliens

    1. JRJoe Rogan27:27

       Are you familiar with, uh, Commander David Fravor's a- account of, uh, the Tic Tac UFO that he encountered off of the, uh, coast of San Diego? Lex, you know Lex, Lex Fridman?

    2. EMElon Musk27:40

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       Lex Fridman interviewed him on a, his podcast and I interviewed him as well. And if you ever get a chance to listen to Lex's, uh, conversation with him, it's really excellent. But this guy is a naval fighter pilot and he talked about this thing that they tracked on radar that went from more than 60,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second. Shaped like a Tic Tac, no visible sign of propulsion, uh, blocked radar, uh, uh, actively jammed their tracking systems, and then went to their predetermined point that they were supposed to, uh, that the, uh, the fighter jet was supposed to scramble to. Went to it, uh, 30 miles away in, you know, a couple seconds. Like, they have no idea how it did it. They, they don't know what it is.

    4. EMElon Musk28:23

       Okay.

    5. JRJoe Rogan28:23

       And these guys that were, uh, work- working for the Navy off the coast said they had encountered them several times. They didn't know what they were. They didn't know what to do. And they just did nothing.

    6. EMElon Musk28:33

       Well, don't they have a photo or something? I mean-

    7. JRJoe Rogan28:34

       They do. They have video of it.

    8. EMElon Musk28:36

       Uh, okay.

    9. JRJoe Rogan28:37

       Yeah. They have video of it. They have, um ... There's ... You, do you, do you ever see the New York Times article that came out in 2017 about this stuff?

    10. EMElon Musk28:45

        I don't know.

    11. JRJoe Rogan28:46

        Yeah. There was a New York Times article in 2017 that was detailing this and there's a couple other, there's, uh, a couple other different sightings that were very similar.

    12. EMElon Musk28:54

        Sure.

    13. JRJoe Rogan28:54

        They were trying to figure out what these things were and why. And it was also in the COVID relief package that they, that the CIA was supposed to release. Yeah.

    14. EMElon Musk29:03

        (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan29:03

        Like these politicians are trying to figure out what all this shit is.

    16. EMElon Musk29:07

        Listen-

    17. JRJoe Rogan29:07

        And so they try to get them to release all the information they have within 180 days.

    18. EMElon Musk29:11

        Honestly, I think I would know if there were aliens. Uh-

    19. JRJoe Rogan29:14

        I would hope so.

    20. EMElon Musk29:15

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan29:15

        That's why I'm asking you.

    22. EMElon Musk29:16

        No. I, I, I, I'd, I'd be jumping on that, like, like ...

    23. JRJoe Rogan29:20

        You should watch that conversation with Lex.

    24. EMElon Musk29:23

        Sure.

    25. JRJoe Rogan29:23

        It's r- ... Like, here's the thing. Do you think that they would want us to know or do you think they would just be observing and making sure we don't blow ourselves up? Would, would-

    26. EMElon Musk29:33

        I don't know, man. They're real-

    27. JRJoe Rogan29:34

        If you were an alien civilization-

    28. EMElon Musk29:35

        Th- they sure are subtle.

    29. JRJoe Rogan29:37

        (laughs)

    30. EMElon Musk29:38

        (laughs) Well, I mean, if they-
11. 55:25 – 58:35

    Falcon Heavy Roadster stunt: why it looked fake and how the images were captured

    1. EMElon Musk55:25

       Um, you know, for, when we did the Falcon Heavy test flight, um, that, uh, n- normally when, you know, aerospace companies do, uh, like a, a rocket test flight, they put something boring on, like a concrete block, uh, 'cause they don't wanna risk a, an expensive satellite. And so I was like, "Well, we gotta do something that's not very inspiring," you know, because a concrete block's one of the least inspir- inspiring things you could do. So I was talking to a friend of mine and he said, "Hey, uh, well what about putting a, a Tesla on that?" You know? I was like, "Hey, that sounds like a good idea. (hand slap) I'm gonna go in my garage and I'll put that one in there."

    2. JRJoe Rogan55:59

       (laughs)

    3. EMElon Musk55:59

       So I put my car on the rocket and then we, we wanted to see how far the rocket could go, so I like just, you know, "Floor it. Let's go. Maximum delta v." So I thought it would probably blow up and I had this image of like, man, like, you know, this thing could go, could blow up on the pad and then there's like a tire bouncing down the road and then the Tesla logo just lands, bam, right in front of the camera.

    4. JRJoe Rogan56:22

       (laughs)

    5. EMElon Musk56:23

       (laughs) You know? It's like, you know, one of the things if you're like, this is a movie, you know. Like, that's kind of one of the possible outcomes. And fortunately, it didn't blow up and now my car is, uh, orbiting Mars.

    6. JRJoe Rogan56:34

       Wow.

    7. EMElon Musk56:35

       Yeah. So, now in that car ... So, so now hopefully if somebody in the f- alien civilizations in the future could find that, 'cause it'll be like around for like millions of years.

    8. JRJoe Rogan56:43

       I've seen the images-

    9. EMElon Musk56:45

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan56:45

        ... of it with the, the-

    11. EMElon Musk56:46

        It looks fake.

    12. JRJoe Rogan56:47

        It looks fake.

    13. EMElon Musk56:47

        That's how you know it's real.

    14. JRJoe Rogan56:48

        Is that how you know it's real?

    15. EMElon Musk56:49

        (laughs) Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan56:50

        But how do the images get to us?

    17. EMElon Musk56:52

        It's (laughs) it's, the images are too lame to be, to be, to be fake. Uh, or, or th- I mean, they look good, but you... For example, the, the dynamic range of the camera is not enough to pick up the stars and the, the vehicle, you know? 'Cause they're like-

    18. JRJoe Rogan57:07

        Mm-hmm.

    19. EMElon Musk57:08

        Things are very bright in space. There's no, uh, like we don't quite realize it, but in the at- w- like, uh, uh, th- the, the atmosphere is making everything a little fuzzy.

    20. JRJoe Rogan57:17

        Mm-hmm.

    21. EMElon Musk57:18

        And in space, things are super crisp and super refle- like, really reflective. Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan57:22

        There it is.

    23. EMElon Musk57:23

        Yeah, exactly. So-

    24. JRJoe Rogan57:24

        So how is that getting to us?

    25. EMElon Musk57:26

        W- uh-

    26. JRJoe Rogan57:26

        The image.

    27. EMElon Musk57:27

        Yeah, with a radio.

    28. JRJoe Rogan57:30

        Wow.

    29. EMElon Musk57:31

        Yeah, so the rocket's got a ...

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:34

        How many megapixels is that image?
12. 58:35 – 1:11:57

    Tesla roadmap: Roadster, Plaid performance, yoke steering, and minimal-input autonomy

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:35

       Speaking of the Roadster, when is that thing gonna be available?

    2. EMElon Musk58:40

       Uh, next generation Roadster? So we're, we're finishing the engineering of it this year and so hope- hopefully start shipping them next year.

    3. JRJoe Rogan58:47

       Really?

    4. EMElon Musk58:47

       Yeah. Um, and that, that... We're gonna throw some rocket technology in that car, so...

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:51

       Yeah, I've heard about that. What does that mean?

    6. EMElon Musk58:53

       Um, so at a minimum, it would be, um-

    7. JRJoe Rogan58:55

       Would it hover?

    8. EMElon Musk58:57

       I want it to hover.

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:58

       (laughs)

    10. EMElon Musk58:59

        And I'm trying to figure out how to make this thing hover without, you know, uh, killing people, you know?

    11. JRJoe Rogan59:04

        Right.

    12. EMElon Musk59:05

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan59:05

        Yeah.

    14. EMElon Musk59:05

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan59:05

        Good call.

    16. EMElon Musk59:06

        Yeah, exactly. I thought like maybe we could make it hover, but like, uh, not too high.

    17. JRJoe Rogan59:11

        Mm.

    18. EMElon Musk59:11

        You know? So like maybe-

    19. JRJoe Rogan59:12

        Right.

    20. EMElon Musk59:12

        ... it can hover like a, a meter above the ground or something like that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan59:15

        Mm.

    22. EMElon Musk59:15

        You know? Like, uh, if you plummet, uh, you blow out the suspension, but you're not gonna die.

    23. JRJoe Rogan59:21

        Oh.

    24. EMElon Musk59:22

        So maybe you go six feet. I don't know. Six feet, probably fully okay. You're not gonna die either.

    25. JRJoe Rogan59:26

        Probably not.

    26. EMElon Musk59:27

        Probably not. So if we just put a height limit on it, it'll probably, probably fine.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:31

        And would it be able to travel while it's hovering?

    28. EMElon Musk59:34

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan59:35

        So you'll be able to go six feet off the ground and go how fast?

    30. EMElon Musk59:39

        Well, uh, you'll go pretty fast, but the, the, you're gonna be time limited.
13. 1:11:57 – 1:37:21

    Cybertruck & Texas: manufacturing in Austin, design choices, tires, glass, and solar limits

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:11:57

       Now what about, uh, the truck? When is that thing gonna happen?

    2. EMElon Musk1:12:02

       Uh, Cybertruck? Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:12:03

       Yeah.

    4. EMElon Musk1:12:03

       So we're building a big factory here in Austin that's where we'll make the Cybertruck.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:12:07

       Yeah. Now did you decide to do this in Austin from the jump or did along the way you decide to move the cyber factory, the Cybertruck factory here?

    6. EMElon Musk1:12:17

       Yeah. Well, uh, frankly, I was just ... (laughs) Well, Austin is a bit like mini California. So I was like asking the team in California, "All right, where, where do you wanna... what's your top choice for, you know, uh, next big US factory location? Like where, where do you wanna spend time?" And, uh, the number one choice was Austin. Uh, and then I was like, "Okay. Okay. What's number two?" Uh, silence. (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:45

       (laughs)

    8. EMElon Musk1:12:46

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:48

       So-

    10. EMElon Musk1:12:49

        It's mini California here in Austin.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:50

        It is a lot, right?

    12. EMElon Musk1:12:52

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:12:52

        Yeah. It's a, it's, I mean, I, I, I hesitate talking about it 'cause I've talked about it too much, but it's-

    14. EMElon Musk1:12:58

        (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:12:58

        ... it's very utopian.

    16. EMElon Musk1:13:00

        Yeah. Um-... yeah, we, uh, uh, uh, I think Austin's gonna be the biggest boomtown that America's seen in half a century.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:13:08

        I think it's a great response to the fucked up government-

    18. EMElon Musk1:13:11

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:11

        ... in some of the other cities.

    20. EMElon Musk1:13:13

        (laughs) Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, you know, uh, yeah. Um, I think we, we do, we do need to make sure that Austin does not, uh, you know, people moving from California don't inadvertently recreate the issues that they moved-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:28

        Yes.

    22. EMElon Musk1:13:28

        ... that caused them to move in the first place.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:29

        Yes.

    24. EMElon Musk1:13:30

        Um, so-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:13:31

        The balance of Austin is a blue city in a red state and it's-

    26. EMElon Musk1:13:35

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:13:35

        ... almost like it kinda has to stay red. Not kinda has to, I think it does. You, you need the certain amount of freedoms, but then you need the philosophical, like there's a, there's a bend to Austin that's very progressive and open-minded and-

    28. EMElon Musk1:13:48

        Sure.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:13:48

        ... artistic and the restaurants are amazing. The people are really cool. But it, it needs to be sort of embraced by guns and God. (laughs)

    30. EMElon Musk1:13:59

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 3:24:37