Joe Rogan Experience #1609 - Elon Musk

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Was it like So it was like No. That's the, uh, Sacha Baron Cohen movie?

Elon Musk 0:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:19 I never saw that one.

Elon Musk 0:19 Well, there's a scene where he's, uh (laughs) , they, they, they show him the new missile they've developed and, uh, but it has kind of a round, round head. And he says, uh, "You need to make it more pointy," (laughs) to- to- to his engineers. And, uh, actually that's what I also said, I said the same thing. Um, you know, "Star ship, we need to make it more pointy."

Joe Rogan 0:43 Did you say that?

Elon Musk 0:44 Mm-hmm. And we made it more-

Joe Rogan 0:44 Because of the movie?

Elon Musk 0:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:46 Really?

Elon Musk 0:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Hold on. (laughs)

Elon Musk 0:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:48 Hold on. It's going, I just have the main camera on you. Okay.

Elon Musk 0:52 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:52 (laughs) that's, you literally told them to make the star ship more pointy because of the movie The Dictator?

Elon Musk 0:59 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:01 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:01 Um, they, and they know it too. It's not like they-

Joe Rogan 1:03 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:03 It's not like they haven't, they're unaware of it. (laughs) And I thought it would be funny if we made the rocket more pointy, so we did.

Joe Rogan 1:09 Did it have any effect on the aerodynamics?

Elon Musk 1:10 No.

Joe Rogan 1:11 Nothing?

Elon Musk 1:12 No, we can make it way blunter and it'd be fine.

Joe Rogan 1:14 But was, is it better to be pointier? Like if, if it wasn't for the movie-

Elon Musk 1:17 It's arguably slightly worse. But like- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:21 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22 But more fun for you.

Elon Musk 1:23 Yeah, it looks cooler.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Uh, well, okay. It does look cool.

Elon Musk 1:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:27 (laughs) It's just... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:29 How long do you think it will be before... Are you good, Jamie?

Elon Musk 1:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:33 I just, I just had this head cut off at the top. What's that? Hang on.

Elon Musk 1:35 Um, is my, my head's maybe in the... Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:37 There you go. You good? Yeah. Sorry. H- how long have you-

Elon Musk 1:39 My head is sticking out at the... Is that where it's...

Joe Rogan 1:42 It's right on the edge of the top. It's all good.

Elon Musk 1:43 Oh, is that how it's supposed to be? Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:44 You're good.

Elon Musk 1:45 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:46 How long do you think it's going to be before you have, like, regular flights with that, where you can take off and land and, like an airplane, where it will be very consistent?

Elon Musk 1:56 With our extra-pointy rocket?

Joe Rogan 1:57 Yeah, with your extra-pointy rocket.

Elon Musk 2:03 Do you mean Earth-to-Earth transport?

Joe Rogan 2:05 Eh, mm...

Elon Musk 2:06 Or, or Earth-

Joe Rogan 2:07 Just any kind of-

Elon Musk 2:08 ... or, or Moon to Earth, anywhere. Yes, people.

Joe Rogan 2:09 Yeah, people. Anytime where you could just do it with people-

Elon Musk 2:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:11 ... and have them, have it land all the time.

Elon Musk 2:16 Um, I think it will probably two years away.

Joe Rogan 2:18 Two years away?

Elon Musk 2:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19 That's, that's, that's really nice. Two years is pretty cool.

Elon Musk 2:23 Two years for people. We'll, we'll, we'll have a lot of flights between now and then.

Joe Rogan 2:27 That's crazy. That's-

Elon Musk 2:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:28 ... 2023 is not that far away. That'll be there before you know it.

Elon Musk 2:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Wow.

Elon Musk 2:32 2023, time flies.

Joe Rogan 2:34 How many times have you had explosions with those things?

Elon Musk 2:36 (laughs) When you're on a rocket. Um, I don't know, like, uh, quite a few, six maybe?

Joe Rogan 2:43 (laughs)

Elon Musk 2:43 Five or six.

Joe Rogan 2:43 What are those like? What is it like when you watch it explode? When it's supposed to land and it just... poh!

Elon Musk 2:51 You know, w- this, this is a test program.

Joe Rogan 2:54 Right.

Elon Musk 2:54 We're ac- we expect it to, to explode.

Joe Rogan 2:56 Of course.

Elon Musk 2:57 So, um, it, it's weird if it doesn't explode, frankly.

Joe Rogan 3:00 Really?

Elon Musk 3:00 Uh, yeah. Um, 'cause we're, you know, we're trying to develop advanced rockets, uh, at a high s- at a high speed. And, uh, if you want to get payload to orbit, uh, you, you have to run things close to the edge. And, um, the whole rocket is evolving, the engines, the structure, avionics, the software, the ground systems are all evolving simultaneously. So, and, and the whole production system, which is actually harder than the rocket design by far. So the-

Joe Rogan 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 3:25 ... the rock- the, the rocket, and engine, and avionics production system is... and, and the, and the launch system, uh, is 1000% harder than the initial design, like at least.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Really?

Elon Musk 3:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:38 So when-

Elon Musk 3:39 Same with car, cars, it's like 10,000%. Uh, it's easy to do a car prototype, it's hard to do production.

Joe Rogan 3:44 Mm. So when you're looking, and you're scaling towards the future and you're looking at mistakes or, uh, corrections, improvements and all of these different things, that's how you come up with this figure of approximately two years?

Elon Musk 4:00 If current trends continue, uh, if, if we acceli- uh, you know, if you, if you plot the points on the curve of progress, then, then we should be doing regular, uh, orbital flights, uh, with a high probability of, uh, safe landing in two years.

Joe Rogan 4:16 So what-

Elon Musk 4:17 We're, we're getting to orbit this year. Our goal is to get to orbit this year.

Joe Rogan 4:19 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 4:20 So, and, and I'm not sure if people totally understand, like, star ship is the, the largest flying object ever made. Uh, this thing will be about o- over 5,000 tons, uh, weight on lift off.

Joe Rogan 4:34 What?

Elon Musk 4:34 It's going to go straight up five, 5,000 tons.

Joe Rogan 4:37 Wow.

Elon Musk 4:37 Um, this is much heavier than any aircraft by far. There's no, no, no aircraft even comes close to this, uh, weight. Um, and it's going straight up. We- aircraft can't go straight up. So it's like the, it, it's got more than twice, it will have more than twice the thrust of a Saturn V.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Really?

Elon Musk 4:53 Yeah, yeah. It's like a big rocket.

Joe Rogan 4:55 Why does it need that much thrust?

Elon Musk 4:57 Well, we're trying-

Joe Rogan 4:58 'Cause you want to go to Mars? Or is this like-

Elon Musk 5:01 We're just, we're, we're trying to, uh, make life multi-planetary. You know, uh, extend life beyond Earth. And in order to do that, you have to have high tonnage to Mars. And that means you need a big rocket and you got to fly a lot.

Joe Rogan 5:15 So the reason why it has twice the thrust of the Saturn V is to plan for these interstellar trips?

Elon Musk 5:22 Uh, interplanetary.

Joe Rogan 5:22 Or the interplanetary trips.

Elon Musk 5:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:24 So when you, when you're doing this and you're y- you're, you're developing these systems thinking about regular trips to other planets. But you're, you're not, you're not just trying to get into orbit right now, you're trying to get into orbit with something that eventually could scale up.

Elon Musk 5:40 Yeah, we know how to get to orbit. We've done that a lot. So the, the really hard thing is we need to have a fully and rapidly reusable rocket where the, where all elements of the rocket are reused and they're reused quickly, like an aircraft. Um, and this has never been done. This is the holy grail of rocketry, is, is to, uh, have a fully, uh, reusable rocket. Then you need to go one step further, it needs to be fully and rapidly reusable.... you know, it's like-

Joe Rogan 6:08 Like a plane?

Elon Musk 6:09 Yeah, yeah. Like, plane lands, you, uh, you know, refuel it and take off again.

Joe Rogan 6:14 How do you have time? This, I, I, I never understand you in regards to the, the way you run multiple businesses simultaneously. I would think that something like this would require so much concentration, would require-

Elon Musk 6:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:28 ... I mean, you're, this, with, the, I would think this would be your whole being, trying to figure out how to work this.

Elon Musk 6:34 Um, yeah, well, I do work a lot.

Joe Rogan 6:36 (laughs) I mean-

Elon Musk 6:37 Um-

Joe Rogan 6:38 ... but it's crazy. It's-

Elon Musk 6:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:40 ... it's-

Elon Musk 6:40 And apologies for being ... for the reason I was late, as I was literally coming from, from, uh, you know, some critical meetings, just doing ... Normally, I'd be meeting until, uh, uh, working till like, uh, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

Joe Rogan 6:52 Every night?

Elon Musk 6:53 Not ... I mean, Saturday and Sunday, usually not, but sometimes.

Joe Rogan 6:58 How much do you sleep?

Elon Musk 6:59 About six hours.

Joe Rogan 7:00 Oh, that's pretty good.

Elon Musk 7:02 Yeah, so not that crazy.

Joe Rogan 7:03 For you, that's ... I mean, for someone who does as much as you, that's actually ... that's impressive that you can squeeze that in.

Elon Musk 7:10 Yeah. I try... I've tried sleeping less, but then total, uh, productivity decreases.

Joe Rogan 7:16 Yeah. So you feel like six is the number where it's the-

Elon Musk 7:18 Yeah, six. Six, uh, six. Four to six is I can ... That, um ... I, I don't find myself need- wanting more sleep than six.

Joe Rogan 7:26 So when ... Like, with the Saturn V and the space shuttles and all, all these other rockets, you, they would, they would have these parts that would ... They would get the ship up into space, but they would descend down to Earth and crash into the ocean-

Elon Musk 7:44 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:44 ... and they would never use them again.

Elon Musk 7:45 That's right.

Joe Rogan 7:46 How do you avoid that? Like, what is the difference between the way this, these things are structured? Like, y- ... Uh, the, the whole thing goes together, and then it lands together? (laughs)

Elon Musk 7:56 (laughs) Um, well, we're on the wrong planet for a single stage to orbit.

Joe Rogan 7:59 Right.

Elon Musk 8:00 Um, I think one thing to appreciate is, like, space, getting to space is easy, getting to orbit is hard. So you only need maybe 1 or 2% of the energy to get to space, to where the atmosphere is thin, compared to what you need to get to orbit. And if you get to orbit, now you've got to burn off all that energy, and you're coming in like a meteor, so you need a powerful heat shield. So it's, like, super difficult to get to orbit, at all, um, and then if you get to orbit at all, then making those, the stages reusable means they got to come back intact. Uh, and then the, the upper stage is especially difficult because it's got so much energy. All the energy put into it, you have to take out. Um, so it's, uh ... You know, you're literally coming in like a flaming meteor, uh, and, and most things would just melt and vapor- ... melt or vaporize. So, um, like, if you, as a human, tried to come in from orbit, you'd just be, phew, pink mist.

Joe Rogan 8:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Elon Musk 9:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:00 That's a funny way to put it.

Elon Musk 9:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:02 Now, the, the space shuttle, they had tiles, right? That was the, the way they avoided the, the heat. They had these heat shield-

Elon Musk 9:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:10 ... tiles. What, what do you use with the SpaceX rockets?

Elon Musk 9:14 Yeah, we're ... Uh, have a more advanced version of the shuttle tile, but you got to use, uh, some kind of, uh, ceramic essentially. Uh, it's, uh, you know, usually some form of, uh, silicon oxide, aluminum oxide, uh, some carbon perhaps thrown in there. Um-

Joe Rogan 9:31 And is it, like, a one piece, or is it in tiles the way that-

Elon Musk 9:35 It's in tiles, yeah. We have f- ... Uh, hexagonal tiles. So you can see the ... With these, uh, starship, we've actually increased the size of the heat shield. So, uh, it's, it's tough, uh, because the, uh, the tiles are, um, uh, uh, the- they're, they're kind of like ... Uh, I don't ... There's not quite the right analogy, but kind of like dinner plates. Like, they're, they're brittle and they're, uh, they're, they, their, their coefficient of thermal expansion is different from, from metal, so metal will expand and contract differently from the tiles. Um, and the tiles also get super hot, while metal, it can be super cold, uh, 'cause it got cryogenic, uh, fluid behind it. So you got this differential expansion and contraction, um, which makes the gaps in the tiles expand and contract. But if the gaps get too big, then you get, uh, kind of the hot gas, sort of the plasma gets in down, down, we get plasma in the crack, and it's not ... That was bad. And then you're gonna melt the metal behind it. So ... But if they're too close, then they bang together and they crack. So got to get it just right, where they're, uh, that the gap's just right, and then they can, um ... The way that they're attached to the body, they can move around a little bit. Um-

Joe Rogan 10:48 So there has to be some sort of room to move. It can't be one large piece of ceramic that you fit over the front.

Elon Musk 10:56 Yeah, it's y- you, it's ... You can't really make a, such a giant piece of ceramic, uh, 'cause you gotta, you gotta k- ... Uh, well, I guess you'd have, like, a super gigantic oven. Um, but, but you, you really need, uh, you need expansion joints, uh, expansion contraction joints. So it'd be very, uh, quite difficult to do a single piece tile. Um, the thing about, like, tiles for your, for a roof or something like that, you know-

Joe Rogan 11:21 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 11:21 ... like, why don't we just make one tile for a roof? It's like, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:24 Right.

Elon Musk 11:24 ... that's not gonna work.

Joe Rogan 11:25 Now, these things have multiple stages. How many stages, uh, in these, the rocket boosters? When, when things are taking off, how many-

Elon Musk 11:35 A starship-

Joe Rogan 11:35 How many-

Elon Musk 11:35 ... has two stages.

Joe Rogan 11:36 So-

Elon Musk 11:36 So it's, uh, uh, uh, that's, that's the, the minimum number that you could do on a pl- on a planet like Earth. The gravity and ... Earth, earth's gravity is quite strong, um, and the, we have a thick atmosphere and strong gravity. So, uh, whereas, like, if you took off from Mars, uh, it would be ... It's, it's, like, relatively easy. Um, Mars is around, just under 40% of Earth's gravity. Uh, the moon is about a sixth. And, uh, take, getting to lunar orbit from the surface of the moon is easy. Um, like the-... uh, when, during Apollo, the Lunar Lander, uh, just the top half of the lunar na-, Lunar Lander was able to take off and get to lunar orbit. But to get to earth orbit, you need the giant rocket.

Joe Rogan 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 12:22 'Cause it's very non-linear. So-

Joe Rogan 12:24 So what happens to the first... when, when you take off and it separates into stages, how does the, the first stage get reused?

Elon Musk 12:33 Well, have you seen how the Falcon 9 stages work, where they come back and land?

Joe Rogan 12:38 No.

Elon Musk 12:38 You haven't seen that?

Joe Rogan 12:39 No.

Elon Musk 12:40 Wow.

Joe Rogan 12:41 (laughs)

Elon Musk 12:43 Um, yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 12:44 Jamie's gonna pull it up. So does it come down with parachutes? Does it... like, how does it, uh, how does it land?

Elon Musk 12:53 No, it, it lands, uh, propulsively with the thrusters-

Joe Rogan 12:56 So that-

Elon Musk 12:56 ... with the, with the engines.

Joe Rogan 12:57 Really?

Elon Musk 12:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:59 So it's g-

Elon Musk 13:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:00 It's designed to take off... Here it is.

Elon Musk 13:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:06 Oh, wow. So that is the bottom of the rocket that launches it straight up and then afterwards it comes down and lands like that.

Elon Musk 13:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:19 That's amazing. And then the top piece can then land separately.

Elon Musk 13:28 Yes. Or well, in the case of Falcon 9, the upper stage burns up on re-entry. Um, Falcon 9 has, uh, there's the, the fairing, the top, the, where the satellites are contained in the top, and that, the fairing halves, uh, w- once it gets to space where the atmosphere is thin, it's still a long way from orbit, uh, but it's in space, so you no longer need the, the satellite doesn't need to, to be protected by the nose cone, the fairing. And so that, it's, it sort of splits in two and, and falls away. Um, and then, so with Falcon 9, we recover the, the fairing halves and r- recover the booster, but we lose the upper stage.

Joe Rogan 14:08 On purpose?

Elon Musk 14:09 Uh, well...

Joe Rogan 14:09 Did you design it that way?

Elon Musk 14:12 Uh, yes, but it, it's not really possible to, if... With Falcon 9 (sighs) we, the, the architecture doesn't... like (sighs) if, if we made the upper stage reusable, our payload to orbit would be dramatically less. Um, so in order to have meaningful payload to orbit, scale is important. Like you need to make things big. There are some... there, there is value to scale. Um, you know, for the family... so, you know, w- uh, like for a truck, you wouldn't want like everything delivered by a small pickup truck, you want semi-trailers.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 14:51 You know, um, you don't see, um, you, you don't see ships in the ocean, cargo ships, you know, coming along with one sea van on a, with an outboard motor, you know?

Joe Rogan 15:03 Right.

Elon Musk 15:03 It's like a giant ship, you know? So scale has value in and of itself. Um, like the same, the same computer that controls the big rocket controls the tiny rocket. So, you know, even just in terms of like the computer, the computer and, and like the electronics weight becomes vanishingly small in a big rocket, but it is significant in a small rocket.

Joe Rogan 15:25 Do you think there'll ever be a time where there's an alternative source of propulsion outside of just, of, of a, a burning fuel? Like is it possible that, that someone would develop a nuclear propulsion or, or some other method other than just burning large amounts of gasoline or rocket fuel?

Elon Musk 15:45 Uh, there's no way around Newton's third law, really. Um, so you, you basically have to expel mass. Uh, y- y- y- th- like when you get... th- there's a... you know, for a car that you could push against the ground, for an app, for an aircraft, you can react against the air, um, for a boat, you, you can react against water. In vacuum, there is nothing. So you, you, the only way to move is to react against yourself, to essentially shoot out gas at very high velocity, uh, so, and, and, and to transfer momentum, momen- momentum from, you know, to, to, to that gas that is going th- that way very rapidly. Um, so you want to accelerate a small amount of mass very fast in order to have you, the large amount of mass, accelerate slowly, because f- momentum is conserved (laughs) . So, yeah, um...

Joe Rogan 16:47 So we're stuck with gas?

Elon Musk 16:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Until some insane breakthrough dealing with gravity or something.

Elon Musk 16:54 S- s- yeah. And I mean, it's not gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 16:55 Not, not in our lifetime?

Elon Musk 16:56 Not in our lifetime (laughs) . No. Um, yeah. So, so you could... so ironically, uh, everything will go electric except for rockets.

Joe Rogan 17:09 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 17:10 Uh, it's just... now, you can make rockets indirectly electric by using electricity to create the fuel. Um, so you can take, uh, CO2 and H2O, uh, and create methane and oxygen from that. So CH- methane is CH4 and, and oxygen is O2. So, um, and for example, on, on Mars, which is a primarily CO2 atmosphere and there's a lot of water ice, is you can mine the ice, take the ice, um, and the CO2 from the atmosphere, um, simplifying this a lot, but run it over a catalyst and, uh, give it a lot of energy and, uh, you can get, uh, CH4 and O2 and you can, you can gracefully get your propellant on Mars. The, the rocket, by the way, is mostly oxygen. So for Starship, we're almost 80% oxygen. Um, it's only just over 20% fuel.

Joe Rogan 18:13 Really?

Elon Musk 18:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:15 So is this as efficient as you anticipate it being, you know, any time in our lifetime? Like is there, is there, the trip to M- to Mars is like what six months? Is that what the idea is?

Elon Musk 18:26 Yeah, it's about six months.

Joe Rogan 18:27 Is, do you ever anticipate it being quicker than that? Is there, it-

Elon Musk 18:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:30 ... possible to make these things faster? Would you have to have solar sails? Like would you-

Elon Musk 18:37 No.

Joe Rogan 18:38 ... want, would you-

Elon Musk 18:38 Solar sail would be very slow.

Joe Rogan 18:39 Would it be?

Elon Musk 18:39 Um, yeah, the, I mean, I'm trying to think of like the way to think about gravity here. And there's a lot of analogies. Um, but you know, uh, like you can think like space itself is, is curved, like it's like a funnel. Like if, if there's something that, uh, has, uh, a lot of mass, it's, it's creating like a funnel. And, um, so in the same way, like, like if you have a coin funnel and you let the, the, the coins, the coin thinks it's going in a straight line, uh, pr- pretty much. Um, you know, uh, the physicists out there might quibble with my analogies. But anyway, I'm trying to convey what gravity is like, uh, like a funnel. And so if you, if you want to get out of that gravity well, you actually need to go very fast parallel to the earth's surface. And the faster you go parallel to the earth's surface, the further out you spin. So, or you can think of like a marble in a funnel.

Joe Rogan 19:37 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 19:37 Like if you want that, get that marble to go far out, you just spin it sideways and, and it'll, it'll spiral out. And conversely, if you, uh, just due to the friction of, of, of the air friction and the rolling friction, it will slow down a little bit if you don't give it any, um, any push and will slowly spiral in. And then as it gets closer, it spins faster and faster 'cause this is how gravity basically works. Um, so, um, w- all the things in the solar system are spinning around this gigantic funnel in space time called the Sun. And we're like these tiny little dust motes, uh, going around the Sun. Um, and the further out you are away from the Sun, the s- the slower you move around in, in terms of degrees per second. So like the orbit of Mars, which is further away from the Sun is about two years. And Earth's one year, um, 'cause Mars is about 50% further away from the Earth than the, uh, from, from the Sun than the Earth is. So it's like Mars, we're, Earth is at one astronomical unit, Mars is like one and a half-ish, um, astr- uh, astronomical unit. So we're about eight light minutes away from the Sun, Mars is about 12. And, um, yeah, so when, when you want to go to Mars, you basically accelerate in the, along the same path of, of Earth going around the s- the Sun. And you time it such that as you w- you, you, that your acceleration gives you an elliptical orbit around the Sun where the tip of the ellipse, uh, intersects with Mars. So Mars is going around, you go tw- and you just time it to coincide with the tip of your ellipse being Mars. And that, that turns out to be about a six-month journey. Um, now you can speed that up and I think, uh, I mean, I could, could sort of see a way to get, make it happen in, say, three months, um, where the intersection with Mars would not be at the tip of the ellipse, but on the edge of the ellipse. Now that would mean the tip of the ellipse is out near Jupiter. So if you miss Mars, you're gonna end up at Jupiter, uh, Jupiter's orbit. So-

Joe Rogan 21:51 That's not good.

Elon Musk 21:52 Yeah. And you're gonna be coming in hot.

Joe Rogan 21:55 Yeah.

Elon Musk 21:56 So but, eh, that probably can get down to three months without that big of a problem. Getting it down to a month is hard. Um ... And then Earth and Mars are only in the same, uh, s- sort of, there's only about a six-month period every two years when, uh, Earth and Mars are aligned such that you can do the transfer. You know, you can totally imagine that if Mars is on the other side of the Sun, you can't get there because it's gotta go through the Sun. That's not gonna work.

Joe Rogan 22:28 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 22:29 So you got to time it, this is like about a quarter of every Mars year is when you can do the transfer. So one, six months every two years. Um, so if, if we are able to build or if humanity is able to build a city on Mars, um, people will probably remember, you know, which planetary conjunction they came on, you know?

Joe Rogan 22:54 Mm.

Elon Musk 22:55 'Cause e- 'cause it's, you know, it's not like you just go all the time. You can only go every two years.

Joe Rogan 22:59 When do you anticipate, like how, how much time before there's regular travel back and forth to Mars roughly? Like a real civilization on Mars.

Elon Musk 23:18 Well, I think it's gonna take a while to build a real civilization. (sighs) The I- the real, the real, (sighs) the threshold that really matters is if we're getting past the great filter, uh, is (sighs) do we have enough resources on Mars such that if the ear- if the spaceships from Earth stop coming for-

Joe Rogan 23:42 You could survive.

Elon Musk 23:42 Yeah. So y- now it could only be just missing one little thing. It'd be like you're on a long sea voyage and the only thing you're missing is vitamin C. Uh, eh, still not g- uh ... It's only a matter of time, you know?

Joe Rogan 23:56 Yeah.

Elon Musk 23:56 And then it's gonna be curtains. So you got to have, uh, all the things necessary to sustain civilization on Mars. Um, and the reason that the ships from Earth stop coming could be World War III or it could be due to a slow decline of civilization. So civilization here on Earth could end with a bang or a whimper.... um-

Joe Rogan 24:19 Or natural disasters.

Elon Musk 24:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:20 Asteroid impacts-

Elon Musk 24:21 Yeah, that would be-

Joe Rogan 24:22 ... super volcano.

Elon Musk 24:22 ... up, in the bang category. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:23 Yeah. (laughs)

Elon Musk 24:24 But it could, it could also be, like, a whole series of things. Like, so like, what killed the dinosaurs?

Joe Rogan 24:28 Right.

Elon Musk 24:28 Well, it wasn't just one thing, you know?

Joe Rogan 24:29 Right.

Elon Musk 24:30 It was, like, a whole bunch of things happened in a row and, and, uh, you know, um, while they-

Joe Rogan 24:38 D-

Elon Musk 24:38 ... they could have taken any one of those things, they had, like, three things happen and no dinosaurs.

Joe Rogan 24:43 Which is kind of amazing that crocodiles are still here.

Elon Musk 24:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:47 Those fuckers.

Elon Musk 24:48 Well, cro- cro-

Joe Rogan 24:48 They're resilient.

Elon Musk 24:49 Crocodiles, they, um, they'll, they'll l- live on decayed meat. They'll, they love rotten meat. And so, in a, any kind of disastrous sit- situation, there's a lot, a lot of dead creatures and the cr- crocodiles love it. So, um, that's why they're around. Crocodiles and bugs and mushrooms. Um-

Joe Rogan 25:11 And, and shrews.

Elon Musk 25:13 Shrews, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Which is why we're here. (laughs)

Elon Musk 25:15 (laughs) Yeah, exactly. Our great, great, great, great, great, great grand-

Joe Rogan 25:18 (laughs)

Elon Musk 25:18 ... grandparents were shrews.

Joe Rogan 25:19 What a strange thing-

Elon Musk 25:21 So like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:21 ... to come from.

Elon Musk 25:22 (laughs) So-

Joe Rogan 25:23 So there's hope.

Elon Musk 25:23 ... there's hope for all you rodents out there. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:26 (laughs) One day-

Elon Musk 25:26 Uh-

Joe Rogan 25:26 ... you can go to Mars. Just keep doing your homework.

Elon Musk 25:29 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 25:30 So, so there'll be ... there, the g- you say the great filter. What did you mean by that?

Elon Musk 25:37 Um, well, so there's something called, like, the Fermi paradox of, like-

Joe Rogan 25:43 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 25:43 ... where are the aliens?

Joe Rogan 25:44 Yeah.

Elon Musk 25:45 So, you know, where are the aliens? Um, and, um, I think it was Carl Sagan that said, like, uh, if ... if ... there either are a lot of aliens or none. And the ... either ... they're equally terrifying.

Joe Rogan 26:04 Mm.

Elon Musk 26:05 Um, if there are a lot of aliens, well, I mean, the invasion ship s- slash, uh, uh, you know, bug infestation just, you know, like ... (laughs) with the, like-

Joe Rogan 26:19 Starship Troopers style?

Elon Musk 26:21 Y- well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:21 (laughs)

Elon Musk 26:21 I mean, it's like, it's, an alien civilization might just view us as, like, a bug infestation.

Joe Rogan 26:26 Right.

Elon Musk 26:26 You know? It's like, "Hey, we liked that planet. It was fine. Now, it's got a bunch of bugs. Just go fumigate it." You know? Um, like we fumigate a house. Um, (laughs) that, that's certainly possible. And then, uh, but if there are no aliens, well, could it be that all civilizations are just destroyed before they become interpl- inter-, uh, stellar? You know?

Joe Rogan 26:44 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 26:44 So, uh ... And, and I, I wanna be clear, like, (laughs) to the best of my knowledge, I, there is no evidence for alien life on Earth. That alien li- ... there's no ev- ev- there's no evidence for alien life. There's no direct evidence for alien life. No ... You know, and if somebody says, "Oh, what about this alien fo- uh, you know, uh, sighting or whatever?" I'm like, "Listen, it's gotta be at least as good as a 7-Eleven or ATM cam, okay?" (laughs) It's like, if somebody's got a, at least, like, an iPhone 1 level camera.

Joe Rogan 27:18 Yeah.

Elon Musk 27:19 Like something, you know?

Joe Rogan 27:20 The problem with that is it's just too easy to fake things today too.

Elon Musk 27:24 Yeah, sure. Uh, like, uh, they should at least try hard in their, in faking it.

Joe Rogan 27:27 Are you familiar with, uh, Commander David Fravor's a- account of, uh, the Tic Tac UFO that he encountered off of the, uh, coast of San Diego? Lex, you know Lex, Lex Fridman?

Elon Musk 27:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Lex Fridman interviewed him on a, his podcast and I interviewed him as well. And if you ever get a chance to listen to Lex's, uh, conversation with him, it's really excellent. But this guy is a naval fighter pilot and he talked about this thing that they tracked on radar that went from more than 60,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second. Shaped like a Tic Tac, no visible sign of propulsion, uh, blocked radar, uh, uh, actively jammed their tracking systems, and then went to their predetermined point that they were supposed to, uh, that the, uh, the fighter jet was supposed to scramble to. Went to it, uh, 30 miles away in, you know, a couple seconds. Like, they have no idea how it did it. They, they don't know what it is.

Elon Musk 28:23 Okay.

Joe Rogan 28:23 And these guys that were, uh, work- working for the Navy off the coast said they had encountered them several times. They didn't know what they were. They didn't know what to do. And they just did nothing.

Elon Musk 28:33 Well, don't they have a photo or something? I mean-

Joe Rogan 28:34 They do. They have video of it.

Elon Musk 28:36 Uh, okay.

Joe Rogan 28:37 Yeah. They have video of it. They have, um ... There's ... You, do you, do you ever see the New York Times article that came out in 2017 about this stuff?

Elon Musk 28:45 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 28:46 Yeah. There was a New York Times article in 2017 that was detailing this and there's a couple other, there's, uh, a couple other different sightings that were very similar.

Elon Musk 28:54 Sure.

Joe Rogan 28:54 They were trying to figure out what these things were and why. And it was also in the COVID relief package that they, that the CIA was supposed to release. Yeah.

Elon Musk 29:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:03 Like these politicians are trying to figure out what all this shit is.

Elon Musk 29:07 Listen-

Joe Rogan 29:07 And so they try to get them to release all the information they have within 180 days.

Elon Musk 29:11 Honestly, I think I would know if there were aliens. Uh-

Joe Rogan 29:14 I would hope so.

Elon Musk 29:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:15 That's why I'm asking you.

Elon Musk 29:16 No. I, I, I, I'd, I'd be jumping on that, like, like ...

Joe Rogan 29:20 You should watch that conversation with Lex.

Elon Musk 29:23 Sure.

Joe Rogan 29:23 It's r- ... Like, here's the thing. Do you think that they would want us to know or do you think they would just be observing and making sure we don't blow ourselves up? Would, would-

Elon Musk 29:33 I don't know, man. They're real-

Joe Rogan 29:34 If you were an alien civilization-

Elon Musk 29:35 Th- they sure are subtle.

Joe Rogan 29:37 (laughs)

Elon Musk 29:38 (laughs) Well, I mean, if they-

Joe Rogan 29:39 Yeah.

Elon Musk 29:39 ... wanted us to know, obviously, they could, they could just-

Joe Rogan 29:41 For sure.

Elon Musk 29:41 ... you know, show up and-

Joe Rogan 29:42 Yeah.

Elon Musk 29:42 ... walk down Main Street, you know?

Joe Rogan 29:44 Right.

Elon Musk 29:44 Like, "Hey, I'm an alien. Check me out." You know?

Joe Rogan 29:46 Right.

Elon Musk 29:46 Uh, "Here's my spaceship." And I just land in the middle of Times Square. And they're like-

Joe Rogan 29:48 Right.

Elon Musk 29:49 "Okay."

Joe Rogan 29:50 Or hover over Downtown LA.

Elon Musk 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:52 Yeah.

Elon Musk 29:52 We'll be like, "Okay. We believe you."

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yeah.

Elon Musk 29:54 Um, so whatever they're ... (laughs) they are very subtle, very subtle, these aliens. Uh-

Joe Rogan 30:01 How often do you think about it?

Elon Musk 30:03 None. Zero. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:04 Zero? Even though you're thinking about interplanetary travel-

Elon Musk 30:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:07 ... you don't really think about aliens?

Elon Musk 30:09 No. I mean, if they show up, I'm like, "Great. Okay. Now, this is new information." But we've-

Joe Rogan 30:14 (laughs)

Elon Musk 30:15 (laughs) Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:19 What an interesting-

Elon Musk 30:19 I'm like-

Joe Rogan 30:19 ... way of putting it. This is new information.

Elon Musk 30:21 This is new information. Like-

Joe Rogan 30:22 Yeah.

Elon Musk 30:22 ... where were you guys-

Joe Rogan 30:22 Yeah.

Elon Musk 30:23 ... up till now?

Joe Rogan 30:23 Yeah.

Elon Musk 30:24 Um, so-... anyway, uh, listen, I'm, if, if, if I see some (laughs) evidence for aliens, I'll, I'll be like, I'll be the first to be like, "Ah, aliens," you know?

Joe Rogan 30:35 Right.

Elon Musk 30:36 Um-

Joe Rogan 30:36 Then you'll investigate. But until then, you think it's kind of a waste of time?

Elon Musk 30:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:39 Yeah. It definitely seems like a waste of time if nothing's happened so far. You think about all the people that have been researching aliens for their whole life and they have-

Elon Musk 30:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:48 ... very little to show for it.

Elon Musk 30:51 Well, you, you know, there's-

Joe Rogan 30:53 Other than cool stories.

Elon Musk 30:54 Yeah. Um, I mean, we have archeologists, uh, going all over the world looking at things, you know? Where there's this, uh, people... Like, if, if we were to find something like, let's say, like a cube of titanium, just like a one-inch cube of titanium, let's say, in the middle of the pyramid, I'd be like, "Aliens, for sure." There's no way they could've made, uh, titanium back then.

Joe Rogan 31:14 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 31:14 Nope, there's no way. They, uh, that's hard. That's all. One look, don't even need a computer. Like, if computer, it would be like, "Hey, wow, computers, they didn't have computers back then, so must be aliens." But y- but even just, like, some advanced metallurgy, anything, like, I mean, say, anything like that.

Joe Rogan 31:32 Right.

Elon Musk 31:32 So-

Joe Rogan 31:32 N- nothing like that, uh, that we could point to that we can't do.

Elon Musk 31:38 Everything that we found archeologically is consistent with the time, uh, the technology they had at that time.

Joe Rogan 31:45 Archeologically?

Elon Musk 31:46 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Yeah.

Elon Musk 31:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:47 So you're j- just talking about old stuff now?

Elon Musk 31:49 Yeah, just throughout history, it's not like-

Joe Rogan 31:51 Yeah.

Elon Musk 31:51 ... like, uh, like if aliens visited, there would, there'd be something buried somewhere, you think. Um, we haven't seen anything, so. Anyway, I mean, maybe there are aliens, but they're very subtle. If there are, they're just very, uh, they're being pretty shy. Um...

Joe Rogan 32:07 (laughs)

Elon Musk 32:07 So, um, far as we can tell, there's none. So, nor are we seeing signals from any other s- solar sh- system or anything like that. So, um, now, and the thing is that, um, on a galactic timescale, even with sub-light travel, you could absolutely colonize the whole galaxy, even some of the neighboring galaxies. Um, so if you gave, if you said, a million years with c- with, with, and say, w- there's n- there's no new physics, could you colonize the galaxy in a million years? Absolutely, the entire galaxy.

Joe Rogan 32:42 So you would start with Mars, build bases on Mars-

Elon Musk 32:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:45 ... then use Mars to jump off to all these other planets, set up places there-

Elon Musk 32:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:49 ... and over thousands of years easily.

Elon Musk 32:51 Yeah, just, just, just-

Joe Rogan 32:51 Yeah.

Elon Musk 32:51 ... kind of like, you know-

Joe Rogan 32:53 So that's-

Elon Musk 32:53 ... hop from one solar system to the next, and yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:56 That, it seems like that's imperative, like that has to happen if the human civilization is gonna survive.

Elon Musk 33:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:04 Because our planet is just, we're too subject to natural disasters and our own folly, and if the species is gonna survive-

Elon Musk 33:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:11 ... we kind of have to escape.

Elon Musk 33:13 It's mostly about the species. I mean, uh, there have been some real doozies of like, uh, you know, massive meteors and super volcanoes and the, the continents moved all over the place and Earth's been a snowball and super hot. It, the... If, if you read, like, the geological history of Earth, it's, like, very long and complicated. Um, so, and then there have been so many extinction events, not like just a few. Um-

Joe Rogan 33:40 Yeah.

Elon Musk 33:41 I mean, the, the Permian extinction event, that was a real rough one, where it's like well over 90% of all species, uh, died out. Um, and that doesn't tell the whole story because a, a huge chunk of the remaining species were fungi and, um, you know, like sponges and stuff like that, you know? Uh, but like if, if, are you, are you a sponge? (laughs) Okay, you're probably doing okay.

Joe Rogan 34:06 (laughs)

Elon Musk 34:07 They're still around. (laughs) Are you a mushroom? (laughs) Do you like being in the dark and feasting on dead, dead mat- dead, dead plant and animal matter? Okay. But if you're, like, a human, you're screwed.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Yeah.

Elon Musk 34:19 So.

Joe Rogan 34:19 Well, didn't... People got down to there was just a few thousand of us at one point in time because of a super volcano, I think Indonesia, and I think it was only, like, 60, 70,000 years ago.

Elon Musk 34:31 Yeah. There, there've been a, a number of sort of revolutionary-

Joe Rogan 34:35 Real close.

Elon Musk 34:35 ... choke points.

Joe Rogan 34:36 Yeah.

Elon Musk 34:36 Um, and, uh, the, the last Ice Age must have been pretty rough, too. You know, a lot of species got wiped out then.

Joe Rogan 34:43 Is that part of what motivates you? Or what, what motivates you to want to, uh, to do this and to put people on Mars and to start traveling, get people traveling through the galaxy?

Elon Musk 34:57 Yeah. So, uh, philosophically, I'm, I'm in the, the Douglas Adams sort, sort of school of thought, uh, which is that the universe is the answer, and we need to figure out, like, what questions to ask to better understand the answer that is the universe. Um, so we wanna exp- ex- expand the scope and scale of consciousness, increase our understanding of, of the universe. We'd like to understand why are we here, where did we come from, where are we going, what's, what, what's this all about. Um, and in order to, in order to, I don't know, just understand the meaning of life, we, we have to extend, uh, expand the scope and scale of, of life and, and the consciousness, which may be digital or bio- digital and biological in the future. Um, and, um, and get, and get past at least one of the great filters, which is to become a multi-planet species. Uh, you know, any... A, a species that does not become multi-planetary is simply waiting around until there is some extinction event-

Joe Rogan 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 36:05 ... either, uh, self-inflicted or external.

Joe Rogan 36:09 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 36:09 So, so we gotta, we, we gotta, you know, be a multi-planet species. Also, that's, like, way more exciting. That's like, do you want a future where we're out there among the stars exploring the universe or do you want a future where we're stuck on Earth forever? I think we want the super exciting future where we're out there exploring the, the galaxy. That's, that sounds great to me. Um, and, you know, I think it's worth 1% of our resources, something like that.... you know, maybe more, but at least 1%.

Joe Rogan 36:39 Well, it's al- it's in all the most exciting sci-fi movies.

Elon Musk 36:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:43 So.

Elon Musk 36:43 Yeah, if you saw a sci-fi movie and they didn't have spaceships, you'd be like, "What's gone on there?"

Joe Rogan 36:48 (laughs)

Elon Musk 36:49 You know? Must've, something terrible must've happened.

Joe Rogan 36:51 Well, we always assumed, when we were kids, that we would be traveling to the moon and-

Elon Musk 36:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:57 ... back and traveling all over space by now. You know? Space 1999 was a show when I was a kid that was, uh, interplanetary travel. Remember they had spaceships out there-

Elon Musk 37:05 Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:05 ... and motherships? And they thought 1999, by then, for sure-

Elon Musk 37:10 For sure.

Joe Rogan 37:10 ... it would happen.

Elon Musk 37:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:11 The problem is, we need more Elon Musks. There's not a lot of people that really dedicate all their time and energy to do something like this. It, it, it really does... It's a really fascinating thing about the species. It takes a few unique individuals that are motivated to do something like this and have the resources and the intelligence and the... You can figure out how to organize people to, to get something like this done. Not a lot of you.

Elon Musk 37:40 Well, it takes... There's, there's a lot of, sort, smart, talented people at SpaceX and at Tesla. Um, and that, that's how we get things done. Um. But, yeah, I mean, part of the reason why SpaceX is still privately, uh, uh, privately held. Um, although we have a lot of investors and, and everyone at the company is given stock, uh, is that the time for, time horizon for SpaceX is, is long. Um, you know, it's, it's like, you know, what's the market for, uh, transporting things to Mars? Well, uh, no, no market. There's no one there.

Joe Rogan 38:16 Right.

Elon Musk 38:16 Um, so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:17 (laughs)

Elon Musk 38:18 They were like, "That sounds pretty risky." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:21 (laughs)

Elon Musk 38:22 And, and a pub- public company, you know, the feedback loop tends to be, you know, maybe a year to four years or even quarterly. And it's like, uh, well (laughs) , this is like 10 years, 20 years out.

Joe Rogan 38:32 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 38:33 And I, and I probably didn't answer your question earlier which is like, when are we... When do I think we can go to Mars? I mean, I think possibly as soon as five years from now. Um...

Joe Rogan 38:42 Really?

Elon Musk 38:43 Yeah. Uh, but then, but then to have a... You, f- then you gotta build out the base.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 38:47 And then you gotta build out the, the, the city. Um, so the first thing you gotta build is like, okay, you gotta do, um, generate energy. You know, so you got like giant solar panel farm, you know. And then you've gotta p- have propellant production, so you gotta make the fuel and oxygen, and you gotta, you know, grow food, grow plant, you know, plants, and like all the things necessary for life support. Um-

Joe Rogan 39:12 So does everything have to be done in a greenhouse? Is it some sort of a dome?

Elon Musk 39:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:16 The, so there's... Is there a long-term possibility of terraforming?

Elon Musk 39:20 Yes. Long-term we can make w- uh, we can wa- If you just warm Mars up, there's a lot of, of, of frozen CO2 and frozen water that would liquefy, that the CO2 would densify the atmosphere, the liquid water would form oceans and lakes. Um, so, so basically a lot of frozen water and frozen CO2 on Mars.

Joe Rogan 39:45 And how would you warm it up?

Elon Musk 39:48 Well, there's a few ways to tackle that problem. Um, that'll obviously be up to the Martians, but I don't know, you, you could have giant solar reflectors. You could, um, create like miniature suns over the poles or something like that.

Joe Rogan 40:03 What? (laughs)

Elon Musk 40:05 Well, it can't be gravitationally contained, but you could just have a f- just have d- you know, have it just do giant thermonuclear explosions every few seconds. Um. That's what... The sun is a giant-

Joe Rogan 40:18 Right.

Elon Musk 40:18 ... thermonuclear reactor in the sky. If you want to know what like, "Hey what is it like to be exposed to thermonuclear radiation?" Just go stand outside in the middle of the day.

Joe Rogan 40:25 My 10 year old said, "If space has no air, and fire needs air, how does the sun stay burning?"

Elon Musk 40:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:34 She loves to do that. She looks at you like she's super smart. "Hmm."

Elon Musk 40:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:40 That's a good question, little one.

Elon Musk 40:43 Yeah, there's a lot of interesting things about the sun. Um, the s- the sun is converting, I think, uh, four or five million tons of mass to energy every second. So, you know, E equals MC squared. So that's, uh...

Joe Rogan 40:58 It's a lot.

Elon Musk 40:58 It's a lot.

Joe Rogan 40:59 Yeah.

Elon Musk 41:00 Um...

Joe Rogan 41:00 And it's not even a big sun.

Elon Musk 41:01 It's not even a big sun. So, you know, four, five megatons per second, every second, every day, for billions of years. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:10 So what kind of engineering would be involved in creating a mini sun that you hover above the poles?

Elon Musk 41:16 So, I mean, the sun is g- the, it's a gravitationally contained, uh, reaction. So, uh, you need a lot of mass.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 41:25 So if you don't have a lot of mass, you can just ha- h- that's why you'd have like explosions, just like little, little pulsing things, like a pulsing sun. Um, and, uh, yeah some people have like said, "Well, if you added up all the, the nuclear weapons on Earth, that's, uh, that's, that wouldn't even be that, that much." I'm like, "Yeah, because they're small." We could make way bigger nuclear weap- nuclear bombs than the current ones. It's like what's the point? So well, if you want to make an artificial sun, you would then, you'd just use a lot more hydrogen-

Joe Rogan 41:50 That would be something-

Elon Musk 41:51 ... or tritium or deuterium.

Joe Rogan 41:52 ... they would have to construct on Mars?

Elon Musk 41:54 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:55 And then figure out a way to launch it?

Elon Musk 41:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Jesus.

Elon Musk 42:00 Yeah, honestly, not that hard.

Joe Rogan 42:02 (laughs)

Elon Musk 42:02 Um. I mean they could do this without rarely had, even having computers, uh, so, so back in the day, so.

Joe Rogan 42:12 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 42:13 Um, but you could also do it with like just the sol- solar reflectors. Um, I don't know, somehow if you wanna make it look like Earth, you gotta warm it up.

Joe Rogan 42:20 Right.

Elon Musk 42:21 You know? Um, so...

Joe Rogan 42:24 So in hundreds of years from now or whatever it would take, people would eventually, you know, figure some way out?

Elon Musk 42:31 Yeah, you could terraform Mars and make it be like Earth. Um, and we could bring... We could take life from Earth and breathe life into Mars. Um, there is nothing living on the surface of Mars.... yeah, nothing. It's cold.

Joe Rogan 42:46 Yeah.

Elon Musk 42:47 And there's a lot of ultraviolet. It, it, y- ... The, the combination of being cold and, um, having a lot of ultraviolet radiation, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the killer combo. Um, just being cold, uh, then bacteria could survive or just UV, uh, but warm, bacteria can repair themselves. But if they're frozen and they get blasted with the UV, the- they can't repair themselves because they're, they're frozen.

Joe Rogan 43:16 And isn't the speculation that at one point in time, Mars did have an atmosphere? Mars was different than it is now?

Elon Musk 43:22 Yeah. It, it, uh, it had, uh, it once had a den- uh, quite a dense atmosphere, and it would have, it seems most likely to have had oceans and lakes. Um, now they're frozen and covered in dust. And the, um ... That orange color you see is iron oxide, so there's, there's quite a lot of iron. It's just rust. You know, for a while-

Joe Rogan 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 43:45 ... there they thought, "Well, maybe Mars was like some ancient civilization," you know? Um ...

Joe Rogan 43:50 Do you remember the face on Mars that they ...

Elon Musk 43:52 (laughs) Sure.

Joe Rogan 43:53 Yeah.

Elon Musk 43:53 Um ...

Joe Rogan 43:55 There's a guy that was completely conv- ... He was fascinating. Um, Richard Hoagland, is that his name? See if that's the guy's name, but he's, with all due respect, out of his fucking mind.

Elon Musk 44:07 Sure.

Joe Rogan 44:07 And he was making all these incredible, uh, incredibly bizarre connections, like measurements from this rock to that rock-

Elon Musk 44:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:15 ... and using all this mathematics to prove that this was, that this symmis- symmetry was impossible in nature.

Elon Musk 44:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:20 This was all created by-

Elon Musk 44:21 Sure.

Joe Rogan 44:22 ... civilization, that this face was like some sort of a, you know, uh, ancient, uh, shrine to whatever being lived there before. There it is, Monuments to Mars, Richard Hoagland. That's the guy's name. I used to listen to him on Art Bell. (laughs) It's crazy. It was just ... I, I mean, I don't know if he's schizophrenic. Ma- maybe he's, maybe he's just smarter than all of us, but, uh ... Jamie's shaking his head. (laughs)

Elon Musk 44:48 I think aspirationally, uh, you wanna believe things proportionate to the evidence, not inversely proportionate to the evidence.

Joe Rogan 44:53 Well, he was definitely inversely proportionate-

Elon Musk 44:55 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:55 ... to the evidence. It was very strange.

Elon Musk 44:57 (laughs) A little.

Joe Rogan 44:58 It was one of those ones where I had to stop listening 'cause I, I felt like I was going crazy too.

Elon Musk 45:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:03 He, he was, uh, so invested in this idea. Again, maybe he's right. Hmm? I don't think so.

Elon Musk 45:11 No.

Joe Rogan 45:11 Right?

Elon Musk 45:11 I, uh, uh, I doubt it.

Joe Rogan 45:12 Well, then they-

Elon Musk 45:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:14 ... they had subsequent voyages where they made high-resolution scans of the exact same area and it looked very different without the same shadows. It just looked like-

Elon Musk 45:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:23 ... rocks.

Elon Musk 45:25 Yeah. Mars kind of looks like, uh, I don't know, like some Arizona desert or something like that.

Joe Rogan 45:30 What do they think happened? They think it was hit, like an asteroid hit?

Elon Musk 45:33 Well, everything got hit with a lot of asteroids over time.

Joe Rogan 45:35 They think-

Elon Musk 45:36 Um ...

Joe Rogan 45:36 ... that that's what killed the environment there, the, uh, the atmosphere?

Elon Musk 45:39 Um, well, the atmosphere ... So Mars has, uh, ha- lower gravity than Earth and it does not have a strong magnetic field. So, uh, over time, it was over billions of years, the atmosphere will be gradually eroded by the, by the, um ... You know, by the s- by, by the solar wind, um, and, um, and, and la- having less gravity.

Joe Rogan 46:06 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 46:06 So, um, you know, the smaller you are, the, the less, generally the less atmosphere you're gonna have. Um, so ... Yeah. So generating the atmosphere on Mars, it would eventually erode, but we're talking about hundreds of millions of years to, you know, billions of years type of thing, plenty of time to figure things out.

Joe Rogan 46:26 For us, you mean.

Elon Musk 46:27 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Yeah. So, but do you think that Mars is, their atmosphere eroded quicker because it's just smaller? Just, uh ...

Elon Musk 46:34 That's a factor.

Joe Rogan 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 46:36 Yeah. I mean, like, like if you look at, say, uh, asteroids or, you know, they, they don't really have ... Like, Ceres is a pretty big asteroid that doesn't really have an atmosphere. The moon doesn't really have an atmosphere. So, that ... It doesn't have an atmosphere. Technically there are ti- ... There's a tiny amount of rarefied gas, but it's ver- really not a real atmosphere.

Joe Rogan 46:57 Did you pay attention at all to, uh, the, the guy who was the chair of the Harvard Astronomy Department, Avi Loeb, who, uh, was recently ... There was a bunch of stories in the news because he, he believes that an object that came through our, uh, solar system in 2017-

Elon Musk 47:12 Could have been.

Joe Rogan 47:13 ... was possibly extraterrestrial in origin.

Elon Musk 47:15 Yeah. The, uh, whatever, umami burger? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:19 Yeah, they don't ...

Elon Musk 47:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:20 He thinks that there's a 90 ... Apparently, there's a 91% possibility-

Elon Musk 47:24 The, uh-

Joe Rogan 47:25 ... it was shaped like a-

Elon Musk 47:25 Umami asteroid? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:28 (laughs) Yeah, Oo- umamau?

Elon Musk 47:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:30 It was a Hawaiian name.

Elon Musk 47:32 Okay.

Joe Rogan 47:32 Yeah, it was a Hawaiian name because-

Elon Musk 47:34 (laughs) Sounds like your mama.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Yes. It was like your mama, yeah.

Elon Musk 47:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:38 Umamau or something like that.

Elon Musk 47:40 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it was, uh, discovered in Hawaii.

Elon Musk 47:43 Sure.

Joe Rogan 47:43 So they gave it a Hawaiian name.

Elon Musk 47:45 Yeah. Um ... Well, anyway, so I think a, a fundamental test of human civilization is are we going to become a multi-planet, uh, civilization, um, before something cataclysmic happens? Now, to be clear, I'm pretty optimistic about the future, so I'm not thinking like th- s- we're, you know, our civilization is about to end anytime soon. But it ... There's a chance that it will.

Joe Rogan 48:11 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 48:12 Like Stephen Hawking before he died was like, he's like, he, he thought it was like around 1% a century, something like that, I believe. So, you know, it's not ... It's, it's not like, you know, 1% chance over 100 years. It's like ni- or 99% chance of making it. It's, you know ... So, I think he's probably about right.

Joe Rogan 48:32 So 1% chance per century, so as the centuries go on, there's less of a chance?

Elon Musk 48:37 No, it's-

Joe Rogan 48:38 More of a chance? So because we become more intelligent, more resources, and possibly the ability to escape Earth ...

Elon Musk 48:45 Yeah. I mean, it's like, I don't know, Russian roulette with, uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 48:50 Asteroids.

Elon Musk 48:51 ... 99 barrels are empty.

Joe Rogan 48:52 Yeah.

Elon Musk 48:52 Click, click, click.

Joe Rogan 48:54 Mm.

Elon Musk 48:54 Eventually.

Joe Rogan 48:56 It's gonna get us.

Elon Musk 48:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:57 You, you said something that I thought, I thought was really interesting, the meaning of life. D- do you think there is a meaning to life?

Elon Musk 49:09 Well, I think arguably the meaning of life is to understand the nature of the universe. (laughs) And f- and figure out what the meaning of life is. So, uh, like I said, I, I think we don't quite know the right questions to ask. And, and if we ... but if we learn more about the universe, if we expand the scope and scale of consciousness, then we are better able to ask the questions about the answer that is the universe.

Joe Rogan 49:36 But when you keep going with that, like, where does it go?

Elon Musk 49:39 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 49:39 Yeah.

Elon Musk 49:39 That's why (laughs) if I knew-

Joe Rogan 49:41 Yeah.

Elon Musk 49:41 ... we're like, "Okay. Case closed. We, we can die now." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:45 The, the problem I always have with that is that do I want there to be a meaning to this? Because it, it gives sense of purpose to finite life forms.

Elon Musk 49:55 Well, I think that's still ... There's a lot to understand about the, the universe that we don't yet understand.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Maybe it's a good time to have a, have a beverage.

Elon Musk 50:01 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 50:02 While we're talking about that.

Elon Musk 50:02 So let's see. Alcohol is hour one. What's, uh, hour two?

Joe Rogan 50:05 Hour two?

Elon Musk 50:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:06 Well, uh, I don't think marijuana's legal in Texas.

Elon Musk 50:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:09 And the last time ...

Elon Musk 50:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:11 I don't have to remind you.

Elon Musk 50:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:12 There was, there was problems involved.

Elon Musk 50:14 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:17 (laughs) Ultimately not, though. Right?

Elon Musk 50:19 Well-

Joe Rogan 50:20 I mean, it was like temporary.

Elon Musk 50:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:22 Every ... All that soothed over, right? Didn't it? CBD's legal here. CBD's legal here.

Elon Musk 50:26 (laughs) CBD.

Joe Rogan 50:27 Okay.

Elon Musk 50:27 CBD doesn't do anything. Does it?

Joe Rogan 50:29 No.

Elon Musk 50:30 I think that's fake.

Joe Rogan 50:31 Well, it ... No. Uh, no. It does-

Elon Musk 50:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:32 Uh, definitely does something for inflammation.

Elon Musk 50:34 It does?

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Elon Musk 50:36 Well, how much CBD do you have to have (laughs) before you notice it?

Joe Rogan 50:39 Well, cyc- well, physically or ...

Elon Musk 50:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:42 Yeah. Physically, you don't have to have a lot. Physically, CBD works great for people with arthritis and people with, uh, like, sore muscles and things like that. Cheers. (glasses clinking)

Elon Musk 50:53 Cheers. (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 50:53 Yeah. No. CBD definitely works for that, but as, as far as like psychoactive effects, not much. It relieves anxiety for people.

Elon Musk 51:00 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:02 Um, it helps people sleep, especially when it's, uh, combined with things like melatonin and, you know, things along those lines. But it doesn't get you high.

Elon Musk 51:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:13 No.

Elon Musk 51:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:14 (laughs)

Elon Musk 51:14 I see. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:17 But people that do mix CBD with THC for muscle creams, though, and that doesn't get you high either, but it m- it increases the effectiveness.

Elon Musk 51:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:24 Yeah. There's some, some creams that are really good that people like that have, uh-

Elon Musk 51:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:28 ... THC and CBD in it.

Elon Musk 51:31 All right. So, so you, like, have, like, sunscreen or something, and then ... I mean, why not? Just throw it in there, you know?

Joe Rogan 51:37 (laughs) Why not? Yeah.

Elon Musk 51:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:39 Well, it's just-

Elon Musk 51:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:40 It's great for soreness.

Elon Musk 51:42 You, you just smell like weed all day.

Joe Rogan 51:43 Yeah. It doesn't smell like weed, though.

Elon Musk 51:45 It doesn't?

Joe Rogan 51:45 No.

Elon Musk 51:46 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:46 No. Some of it does, though.

Elon Musk 51:47 (laughs) Some of it.

Joe Rogan 51:48 Yeah. So, but that's the thing about anything that's unregulated, right? Like, hippies are making it.

Elon Musk 51:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:52 That's always the problem with-

Elon Musk 51:53 You have quality control.

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yeah. No quality control. That's the problem with edibles, you know, they're made by a bunch of crazy people.

Elon Musk 51:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:59 Cooking them up in some, you know, Chula Vista apartment somewhere.

Elon Musk 52:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:03 You really don't know what's in there. So-

Elon Musk 52:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Well ...

Elon Musk 52:08 Anyway, so we gotta make life multi-planetary before it's too late.

Joe Rogan 52:11 Yeah.

Elon Musk 52:11 Um-

Joe Rogan 52:12 I think that makes sense.

Elon Musk 52:13 Yeah. I mean, why not? It's also has to be fun and exciting. And even if you don't go, you can just watch it on TV.

Joe Rogan 52:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Elon Musk 52:19 So it-

Joe Rogan 52:20 Yeah. Even if you don't go.

Elon Musk 52:20 It's still cool. I mean, like, yeah. I mean, you know, it's not like, you know, attendance is mandatory here. Um, you know, and, uh, it'll be dangerous and people might die.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Well, for sure they're gonna die, right?

Elon Musk 52:31 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:32 Yeah.

Elon Musk 52:32 Like some- You'd be surprised. Some people think that, uh, the idea is like, oh, Mars is gonna be an escape hatch, some luxury resort for rich people. I'm like, "No. It's, like, high probability of death relative to Earth. Uh, it's long journey. Food's probably not great. Uh, a lot of hard work."

Joe Rogan 52:50 No sunlight.

Elon Musk 52:51 Yeah. It's, I mean, it's like, it sounds like, you know, Shackleton's out for the Antarctic-

Joe Rogan 52:56 Right.

Elon Musk 52:56 ... where it's like, it's like it's dangerous, it's a long journey, the food's bad, you know, might not make it back. But if you do, it'll be glorious.

Joe Rogan 53:06 Yeah. It's interesting how much people adapt when they're faced with a real problem. Like, if we knew that we only had a certain amount of time left, like if we knew an asteroid was absolutely headed our way and it was gonna kill most of the people on this planet, you would see people scrambling for something like that.

Elon Musk 53:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:24 Like, look, uh, I moved to Texas just to get the fuck out of LA 'cause I felt like that was dying. I was like, "We gotta get outta here." And I never thought I was gonna move out of LA like that.

Elon Musk 53:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:35 It happened very quickly. But people adapt when they realize that this is ... you have to do something.

Elon Musk 53:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:42 If we had to do something, we had to go to Mars and had to set up shop there.

Elon Musk 53:47 Yeah. I think it's important for the future of humanity and consciousness. And like I said, we wanna get past the great filter. We- you know, it might turn out that when we're, when we go out there exploring the galaxy, we might find a whole bunch of dead one-planet civilizations.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Mm.

Elon Musk 54:02 You know, and they were just, they just never made it to the next planet, and-

Joe Rogan 54:05 Ghost towns.

Elon Musk 54:06 Yeah. Strange ghost towns of like ... You know, it's like if you ... You know, we're, like, we'll go through the archeological ruins of like, like, ancient Babylonians and Sumerians and like-

Joe Rogan 54:17 Ah.

Elon Musk 54:17 ... you know, and like trying to decode their writing, like what the hell is Linear B.

Joe Rogan 54:22 Yeah.

Elon Musk 54:22 And it ... And hieroglyphics, and ...

Joe Rogan 54:24 Isn't that a problem with us now that everything has become digital? Everything is stored on microchips and hard drives. And, and if something catastrophic happened-

Elon Musk 54:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:34 ... and you don't have the ability to access all that stuff, we're kind of starting from scratch.

Elon Musk 54:39 Yeah. Absolutely. Um, it's kind of problematic that things aren't chiseled in stone. You know, they used to be-

Joe Rogan 54:44 Yeah.

Elon Musk 54:44 ... chiseled in stone, and we're like, "Okay, now-"... you know, it's kind of a pain in the ass to destroy stone and stone lasts a long time.

Joe Rogan 54:50 Yeah.

Elon Musk 54:50 So we still have a lot of writing from the ancient Romans because they chiseled a lot (laughs) a lot-

Joe Rogan 54:54 Yeah.

Elon Musk 54:54 ... of stuff in stone.

Joe Rogan 54:56 Or the Egyptians.

Elon Musk 54:56 Or the Egyptians, yeah, exactly. Man, the, the Egyptians really went to town with hieroglyphics. Um-

Joe Rogan 55:01 Even the Sumerians, you know, the cuneiforms-

Elon Musk 55:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:04 ... carved into clay tablets.

Elon Musk 55:05 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Yeah.

Elon Musk 55:07 Um-

Joe Rogan 55:08 But us?

Elon Musk 55:08 I kind of wish they had said more. Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 55:10 Right.

Elon Musk 55:10 Like, us, and like, our stuff is, yeah, doesn't, it's not gonna last for a long time. I mean, there, I mean there's sort of aspects of us, of us, of our stuff that would last for a long time, but a lot of the interesting things are gonna be lost forever.

Joe Rogan 55:24 Yeah.

Elon Musk 55:25 Um, you know, for, when we did the Falcon Heavy test flight, um, that, uh, n- normally when, you know, aerospace companies do, uh, like a, a rocket test flight, they put something boring on, like a concrete block, uh, 'cause they don't wanna risk a, an expensive satellite. And so I was like, "Well, we gotta do something that's not very inspiring," you know, because a concrete block's one of the least inspir- inspiring things you could do. So I was talking to a friend of mine and he said, "Hey, uh, well what about putting a, a Tesla on that?" You know? I was like, "Hey, that sounds like a good idea. (hand slap) I'm gonna go in my garage and I'll put that one in there."

Joe Rogan 55:59 (laughs)

Elon Musk 55:59 So I put my car on the rocket and then we, we wanted to see how far the rocket could go, so I like just, you know, "Floor it. Let's go. Maximum delta v." So I thought it would probably blow up and I had this image of like, man, like, you know, this thing could go, could blow up on the pad and then there's like a tire bouncing down the road and then the Tesla logo just lands, bam, right in front of the camera.

Joe Rogan 56:22 (laughs)

Elon Musk 56:23 (laughs) You know? It's like, you know, one of the things if you're like, this is a movie, you know. Like, that's kind of one of the possible outcomes. And fortunately, it didn't blow up and now my car is, uh, orbiting Mars.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Wow.

Elon Musk 56:35 Yeah. So, now in that car ... So, so now hopefully if somebody in the f- alien civilizations in the future could find that, 'cause it'll be like around for like millions of years.

Joe Rogan 56:43 I've seen the images-

Elon Musk 56:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:45 ... of it with the, the-

Elon Musk 56:46 It looks fake.

Joe Rogan 56:47 It looks fake.

Elon Musk 56:47 That's how you know it's real.

Joe Rogan 56:48 Is that how you know it's real?

Elon Musk 56:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:50 But how do the images get to us?

Elon Musk 56:52 It's (laughs) it's, the images are too lame to be, to be, to be fake. Uh, or, or th- I mean, they look good, but you... For example, the, the dynamic range of the camera is not enough to pick up the stars and the, the vehicle, you know? 'Cause they're like-

Joe Rogan 57:07 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 57:08 Things are very bright in space. There's no, uh, like we don't quite realize it, but in the at- w- like, uh, uh, th- the, the atmosphere is making everything a little fuzzy.

Joe Rogan 57:17 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 57:18 And in space, things are super crisp and super refle- like, really reflective. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:22 There it is.

Elon Musk 57:23 Yeah, exactly. So-

Joe Rogan 57:24 So how is that getting to us?

Elon Musk 57:26 W- uh-

Joe Rogan 57:26 The image.

Elon Musk 57:27 Yeah, with a radio.

Joe Rogan 57:30 Wow.

Elon Musk 57:31 Yeah, so the rocket's got a ...

Joe Rogan 57:34 How many megapixels is that image?

Elon Musk 57:35 (laughs) Not that many, actually.

Joe Rogan 57:37 Really?

Elon Musk 57:37 No. I mean, it's probably a couple megapixels, something like that.

Joe Rogan 57:40 So like an old flip phone?

Elon Musk 57:42 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 57:44 And what's-

Elon Musk 57:44 It's mostly just, uh, driven by the, uh, what, what's the bandwidth of a video signal?

Joe Rogan 57:49 So what do you have, like-

Elon Musk 57:50 So th- these are frame grabs from the, from the video signal.

Joe Rogan 57:53 B- and where's the, where's the camera that's taking this photo?

Elon Musk 57:57 Oh, man. Our director of photography is awesome.

Joe Rogan 57:59 (laughs)

Elon Musk 58:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:01 But I mean, when this thing-

Elon Musk 58:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:02 ... gets sent to us, what is taking an image of this?

Elon Musk 58:05 (laughs) The, the, there's a camera on a stick.

Joe Rogan 58:07 Really?

Elon Musk 58:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:08 And it didn't break off?

Elon Musk 58:09 No.

Joe Rogan 58:10 (laughs)

Elon Musk 58:11 I mean, we thought it might, but ... But th- there's, there's a camera (laughs) and I, I mean, it's, it's kind of a, like a fairly wide angle and like, so the ca- the camera's actually not that far from the c- the car. Um-

Joe Rogan 58:23 Well, h- th- what is that one up there that shows the whole car? Is that fake?

Elon Musk 58:26 That's fake.

Joe Rogan 58:28 Is that real?

Elon Musk 58:28 That's real.

Joe Rogan 58:29 Wow. It says "Don't Panic" on the screen? (laughs)

Elon Musk 58:31 Yeah. Don't panic.

Joe Rogan 58:35 Speaking of the Roadster, when is that thing gonna be available?

Elon Musk 58:40 Uh, next generation Roadster? So we're, we're finishing the engineering of it this year and so hope- hopefully start shipping them next year.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Really?

Elon Musk 58:47 Yeah. Um, and that, that... We're gonna throw some rocket technology in that car, so...

Joe Rogan 58:51 Yeah, I've heard about that. What does that mean?

Elon Musk 58:53 Um, so at a minimum, it would be, um-

Joe Rogan 58:55 Would it hover?

Elon Musk 58:57 I want it to hover.

Joe Rogan 58:58 (laughs)

Elon Musk 58:59 And I'm trying to figure out how to make this thing hover without, you know, uh, killing people, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:04 Right.

Elon Musk 59:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Yeah.

Elon Musk 59:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Good call.

Elon Musk 59:06 Yeah, exactly. I thought like maybe we could make it hover, but like, uh, not too high.

Joe Rogan 59:11 Mm.

Elon Musk 59:11 You know? So like maybe-

Joe Rogan 59:12 Right.

Elon Musk 59:12 ... it can hover like a, a meter above the ground or something like that.

Joe Rogan 59:15 Mm.

Elon Musk 59:15 You know? Like, uh, if you plummet, uh, you blow out the suspension, but you're not gonna die.

Joe Rogan 59:21 Oh.

Elon Musk 59:22 So maybe you go six feet. I don't know. Six feet, probably fully okay. You're not gonna die either.

Joe Rogan 59:26 Probably not.

Elon Musk 59:27 Probably not. So if we just put a height limit on it, it'll probably, probably fine.

Joe Rogan 59:31 And would it be able to travel while it's hovering?

Elon Musk 59:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:35 So you'll be able to go six feet off the ground and go how fast?

Elon Musk 59:39 Well, uh, you'll go pretty fast, but the, the, you're gonna be time limited.

Joe Rogan 59:44 Right.

Elon Musk 59:45 So-

Joe Rogan 59:45 Like a jet. Like, like a jet fighter pilot.

Elon Musk 59:47 The... There's gonna be a super high pressure, like ultra-high pressure air bottle in the...

Joe Rogan 59:52 Oh.

Elon Musk 59:52 So, so the, the standard Roadster would have like two, two back seats, two like kid seats, you know, in the back.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 59:57 Like small seats like a back of a Porsche or something. Um, or if you get the, uh, I don't know, the Space X option package, uh, then y- in that place where the two rear seats are, would be is a, uh, a high pressure carbon overwrapped pressure vessel. So high, very, uh, you know, I don't know, 10,000 PSI or something like that. And, uh, and then a, and a bunch of thrusters. And so like at, at minimum, I'm confident we could do a thruster where the, the license plate flips down t- you know, James Bond style, and there's a rocket thruster behind it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:00:30 And that, and that gives you three tons of thrust. And-

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 Oh, for acceleration?

Elon Musk 1:00:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 So that would be on the ground?

Elon Musk 1:00:37 That would be on the ground and this thing would move like a bat out of hell.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Jesus Christ, but it already goes 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds, right?

Elon Musk 1:00:42 That's the sedan, or the four door.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 What?

Elon Musk 1:00:46 Yeah, model-

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Wait a minute. How fast is-

Elon Musk 1:00:47 The new, the new, the new Model S, Model S Plaid that we start shipping next month, or this month-

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:00:51 ... uh, is, uh, s-... we just tested it, uh, on, on the MotorTrend spec. Zero to 60 is 1.96 seconds.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 I have never driven my Tesla and go, (smacks lips) "Why isn't this thing a little fucking faster?"

Elon Musk 1:01:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 That mean the, the one I have, the Model S is, uh, 2.4, right?

Elon Musk 1:01:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 Which is preposterous. It's so cra- I take people in it, like I took Tim Dillon in.

Elon Musk 1:01:11 Yeah, they've never experienced anything like it.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 No. Ti-

Elon Musk 1:01:14 In their entire life.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 My friend Tim Dillon is like-

Elon Musk 1:01:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 ... "Uh, so what's the deal with these Teslas?" And I go, "You want, you wanna freak out? You wanna see something fucking crazy?" I, I picked him up at the Improv and we drove to The Comedy Store.

Elon Musk 1:01:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 And I, I took him up Laurel Canyon. Are you ready?

Elon Musk 1:01:26 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 And I, and I gone ... I never take it out of Ludicrous mode, by the way. I keep it in Ludicrous mode all the time.

Elon Musk 1:01:31 Yeah, yeah it's fun.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 I stomped on the ga- well, not the gas, the accelerator, and he started screaming.

Elon Musk 1:01:36 (laughs) He's like, "Ah!" Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 "What the fuck?"

Elon Musk 1:01:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 I go, "Yeah, it's what the fuck. This is crazy."

Elon Musk 1:01:41 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 It's crazy.

Elon Musk 1:01:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 So this is significantly faster than that.

Elon Musk 1:01:45 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Just for the Plaid.

Elon Musk 1:01:47 Yeah, so the, the, the new, the new Plaid, yeah it's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 It's a half second quicker to 60.

Elon Musk 1:01:51 Pretty close, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:01:52 Yeah, like, uh ... I mean, every millisecond really matters when you start getting that, that fast. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 I thought Plaid was gonna ship later in the year.

Elon Musk 1:02:00 Yeah, we've-

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Juiced it up?

Elon Musk 1:02:02 We managed to f- make it go faster.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 Oh, okay.

Elon Musk 1:02:05 That's right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Wow, both ways.

Elon Musk 1:02:07 We plaid Plaid to Plaid.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 And the Plaid has a wider wheelbase too, right?

Elon Musk 1:02:11 It does.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Yeah, and so it handles better? Is that the idea behind that?

Elon Musk 1:02:13 Yeah, it does have better handling. Um, like we're trying to get to, on the Nürburgring get to the like, the low seven-minute mark.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 Really?

Elon Musk 1:02:21 Yeah. Um, and then, you know, with further improvements, I think we could, we could bust seven minutes on the Nürburgring, which would be a, a pretty wicked outcome.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 And what is the record right now at the Nürburgring?

Elon Musk 1:02:32 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 Is it the Porsche 918? Like what has the record? Something crazy like that, right? Some ...

Elon Musk 1:02:37 There's no pro- no production car ... I think no production car has gotten under seven.

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 Ah, really?

Elon Musk 1:02:42 Um, as far as I know. And even the ones that are close r- that, that they say are production or ... They, they ch- they do a bunch of changes.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 Right, like change the tires.

Elon Musk 1:02:50 Um, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 Aerodynamics.

Elon Musk 1:02:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:02:53 But it's like y- I think there's potential to have a car that as delivered can beat seven seconds on, on Nürburgring.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Isn't it funny that there's this one track that's the gold standard for almost all vehicles? Like if you look at like-

Elon Musk 1:03:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:08 ... Road & Track or MotorTrend, do you wanna find out what, how badass this new sports car is, it's like, "What number does it do on the Nürburgring?"

Elon Musk 1:03:16 Well, yeah. Now Nürburgring, to be totally frank, is not representative of normal speed.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 No.

Elon Musk 1:03:22 It's not normal.

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:03:23 Um, it's, it's, it's the hardest one to ... You can't game it, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 Right.

Elon Musk 1:03:27 So, um, but I think for everyday driving, it's the acceleration that really matters. Like, it's like, you know, you're-

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:03:35 ... at a st- you know, the light goes green.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:03:37 Boom, who's across the intersection fastest? Um, the new, the new Plaid'll do, uh, you know, a sub nine second quarter mile and-

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:03:47 ... with a, with a extra track speed and a quarter mile of 155 miles an hour.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 And it's a sedan.

Elon Musk 1:03:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 It's a four-door. (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:03:54 It, it, it can hit 60 miles an hour before it's cleared the intersection.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 That's insane.

Elon Musk 1:03:58 Insane.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 That's insane.

Elon Musk 1:04:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Wow.

Elon Musk 1:04:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 What, what ... Now is that-

Elon Musk 1:04:02 It's uncomfortably fast. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Is that steering wheel legit?

Elon Musk 1:04:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Is it legal?

Elon Musk 1:04:06 Yeah, I mean Formula ... They, they, uh, they use a, uh, a yoke in Formula 1. They don't have a steering wheel.

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Right, but you're not on the highway, a Formula 1 car.

Elon Musk 1:04:15 Yeah, yeah, every-

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 Like I like driving like this, like resting my hand on the top of the wheel.

Elon Musk 1:04:20 Well, you th- I think autopilot's getting good enough that you won't need to drive most the time.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 I-

Elon Musk 1:04:25 Unless you really want to.

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 I, I like driving.

Elon Musk 1:04:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 Yeah. I use autopilot sometimes. I mean, but most the time I drive.

Elon Musk 1:04:34 I, I, I find it's like you can rest your hand on your knee-

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Mm-hmm.

Elon Musk 1:04:38 ... that kinda thing and, and, uh, it, it works great. Anyway, it looks awesome.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 It does look cool.

Elon Musk 1:04:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Yeah, it's very spaceship-y.

Elon Musk 1:04:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:04:46 It's great.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 And all the stuff is on the steering wheel now too, right? The blinkers and all that jazz. Even the horn is like a little button, right?

Elon Musk 1:04:55 Uh, yeah. I mean, the horn is o- uh, already kind of the center of the, the, the steering wheel anyway, but-

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 Is it still the center of the steering wheel as well?

Elon Musk 1:05:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 But isn't it a button? I thought, uh, on the yoke-

Elon Musk 1:05:06 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 ... there, there was a button for the horn.

Elon Musk 1:05:08 Yeah, uh, I-

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 Which you have to really ... I used to have a car that had a button for the horn. I think it was an Acura NSX.

Elon Musk 1:05:15 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 And it had, uh, instead of the center hub being the horn, there was a button and it-

Elon Musk 1:05:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 I never remembered it.

Elon Musk 1:05:24 Well, with the ... There, there are no yokes. Or is there ... No, sorry, there are no stalks. There's so what this-

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Right.

Elon Musk 1:05:30 There's a yo- there's a yoke, but there's no stalks. So the car, for example, will default to driving in the dr- like if you just get in, um, when you press the, the brake pedal and then press the accelerator, uh, it will figure out whether you wanna go backwards or forwards based on-

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 That's crazy. How is that possible?

Elon Musk 1:05:46 Well, it just, you know, it's just looks and sees is there an obstacle in front? Okay, probably don't wanna whack you so you probably wanna go backwards.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Right, but what if you wanna go backwards and there's nothing in front of you?

Elon Musk 1:05:58 I- yeah, what if it's ambiguous?

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 Right.

Elon Musk 1:06:00 Um, so it, it would, it would default to, um, the inverse of whatever you, you started. Um, and then you can just, you can just swipe on the screen and change direction.

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 But isn't it easier to just hit like that way to go reverse?

Elon Musk 1:06:13 Yeah, but you almost never-

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Lift up?

Elon Musk 1:06:14 You'll, you'll see. It's like you almost never-

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Do you do it?

Elon Musk 1:06:17 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 So you've been ... This is something you've driven-

Elon Musk 1:06:20 O- w-

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 ... and it's intuitive?

Elon Musk 1:06:22 Yeah, once you get rid of the stalk and have the car figure it out, it's annoying to have a stalk after that.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 Really?

Elon Musk 1:06:28 It's annoying, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 You're talking to a guy who likes manual gear boxes.

Elon Musk 1:06:32 Sure. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 I like, I like going (makes clicking noise) .

Elon Musk 1:06:35 Yeah, I mean, I like (makes whirring sound) drive on manual too.

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 It's fun.

Elon Musk 1:06:38 Yeah, it's cool.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 Yeah, there's different kinds of cool though. Like I, uh, the one, one of ... What I tell people about the Tesla, I go, "Listen, I love cars. I love all kinds of cars. But the Tesla makes other cars seem dumb." It does. It makes them seem dumb.

Elon Musk 1:06:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 It just, it's so fast. It's so quiet. Everything about it. The navigation screen, it's so big. Like why wouldn't it be big?

Elon Musk 1:07:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 It's better.It's better to be big.

Elon Musk 1:07:02 Yeah, it keeps getting, the software keeps getting upgraded.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 The navigation system, the ability to just press that button and say, "Navigate to," and then it goes on the internet and finds out what you're looking for-

Elon Musk 1:07:11 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:07:11 ... and it finds it, restaurants-

Elon Musk 1:07:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 ... whatever you're looking for. It's fucking amazing.

Elon Musk 1:07:14 Oh, there's a, like a little, uh, tip for the Tesla. If you just, uh, swipe down on the navigate button, it automatically figures out if you wanna go to home or work and navigates there. So if you're, if you're, uh, at, at home, and obviously you know how to get to work, but do you know the fastest way to get to work?

Joe Rogan 1:07:32 Hmm.

Elon Musk 1:07:32 Taking s-

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 So it uses like Waze type technology?

Elon Musk 1:07:34 Yeah. Take it, like what's the, on a traffic adjusted basis, what's the best way to go, to go to work?

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 But how does it adjust? Like what is it getting your data from?

Elon Musk 1:07:41 It's downloading traffic data from the internet.

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 Okay, so look, Waze uses traffic data from the internet plus user inter- input. So like, it takes an extra beat to get the traffic data from the internet. The idea of Waze is that you're getting it from users in real time.

Elon Musk 1:07:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 Like there's a car accident-

Elon Musk 1:07:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 ... people program it in, "Hey folks, there's a fucking car accident here." And then you get it right away, whereas on the internet, you're a couple beats behind.

Elon Musk 1:08:05 Yeah, I mean, we, we get the traffic data from Google.

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Okay.

Elon Musk 1:08:08 So-

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Oh, so it is for Waze 'cause Google owns Waze.

Elon Musk 1:08:09 Well, Waze and Google is slightly different, but they have s-

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 They're pretty close.

Elon Musk 1:08:12 ... similar datasets, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:08:14 Yeah. So basically like, like let's say there's an accident on the way to work or road closure or something like that, uh, it would be helpful to know that before you encountered it. So, um, if you just swipe down, it'll automatically navigate to work. Uh, and then also the, the, the autopilot will work basically seamlessly on the way to work. Like we have the, the beta out and beta's working pretty well. It's gonna get super good. Um, and it'll b- basically be able to drive you all the way to work, um, automatically. You don't even s- like you basically just get in and it'll assume you're going to work if it's Monday through Friday in the morning.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 Hmm.

Elon Musk 1:08:49 Um, or you could say program maybe go to school, drop the kids off at school, then go to work. It should just do this stuff automatically. You wanna take it the, the perspective of all input is error. If you have to do something, it's an error.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 Hmm.

Elon Musk 1:09:02 Make the error smaller.

Joe Rogan 1:09:05 Hmm.

Elon Musk 1:09:06 All i-

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Okay.

Elon Musk 1:09:06 All input, all input is error unless it's a game. Otherwise all input is error.

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 Y- Well, that's the other thing too, that has games. Like you can play chess.

Elon Musk 1:09:16 Yeah, you can play chess. We got, we got the backgammon with the s- with the aesthetic described, uh, in Lost. Uh, JJ Abrams asked for backgammon, so we put backgammon in with, with the Lost aesthetic. Uh, it's got, uh, the spr- a really fun game called Polytopia. Uh, that's, I would say that's my top recommendation for any game in the car is play Polytopia.

Joe Rogan 1:09:37 What is that?

Elon Musk 1:09:40 It's like, it's a real fun strategy game. Uh, that's, uh, you'll, you'll see like just, it's the top of the list.

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 This is not something you can play while you're driving.

Elon Musk 1:09:50 Well, I mean, you're not supposed to play it while you're driving, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:09:52 That would be illegal.

Joe Rogan 1:09:54 But will it work while you're on autopilot? So if you're on autopilot, can you also play chess?

Elon Musk 1:10:00 Well, you have to t- tap a button that says you're the passenger.

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 Oh.

Elon Musk 1:10:04 Kind of like Waze.

Joe Rogan 1:10:06 Okay. Kind of like Waze. Yeah, so it's open for interpretation. Hmm. So if you are, uh, some chess freak, you could literally play chess on your way to work.

Elon Musk 1:10:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 Wow.

Elon Musk 1:10:21 I mean, in the future, a- a- as the car becomes more and more autonomous, uh, it's gonna be really about entertainment. Entertainment, productivity.

Joe Rogan 1:10:31 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:10:31 So it's just probably, yeah, entertainment first and foremost, and then pr- you know, productivity as well.

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 Do you have specific things that you do on your way? Do you listen to books on tape? Do you listen to music? Like...

Elon Musk 1:10:44 Yeah, I usually listen to music.

Joe Rogan 1:10:46 Oh, th- those fucking pirate songs you like.

Elon Musk 1:10:49 The sea shanties?

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 (laughs) I, I thought you were joking about that until you played them.

Elon Musk 1:10:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 Yeah. And then I got-

Elon Musk 1:10:57 Pretty catchy.

Joe Rogan 1:10:57 They're pretty catchy. That's what's crazy.

Elon Musk 1:10:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:59 I started researching sea shanties.

Elon Musk 1:11:01 So it gets stuck in your head.

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 I did not know that it was really a thing.

Elon Musk 1:11:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:11:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:11:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 Jamie, do you know? Do you know about the sea shanties?

Narrator 1:11:12 No, I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 Oh my God. Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:11:13 Well, a- and there's actually something really appealing about, uh, people singing in harmony.

Joe Rogan 1:11:18 Yeah, but it's-

Elon Musk 1:11:19 It's like, it's actually way better than you think.

Joe Rogan 1:11:20 It's also like, it's got like a weird renaissance fair type thing to it.

Elon Musk 1:11:23 (laughs) Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 Like you feel like you're, uh, you're all together in this old timey thing, you know?

Elon Musk 1:11:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:29 Pretending.

Elon Musk 1:11:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 Yeah. Very strange.

Elon Musk 1:11:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:32 Yeah. It's very odd. So, um-

Elon Musk 1:11:36 (laughs) I mean, it seems like one of the top reasons to be a pirate would be-

Joe Rogan 1:11:40 Sea shanties?

Elon Musk 1:11:40 We have sea shanties and we have tropical taverns and, um, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:11:45 Cool outfits I guess.

Elon Musk 1:11:46 Cool outfits. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 Yeah. Shar- scarves.

Elon Musk 1:11:49 You get to dress up.

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 Yeah. You get to dress weird.

Elon Musk 1:11:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:51 Yeah. If you lose your leg, they got pegs for you.

Elon Musk 1:11:53 Yeah. You get a parrot.

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 Yeah. A parrot. How'd that happen?

Elon Musk 1:11:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:57 Now what about, uh, the truck? When is that thing gonna happen?

Elon Musk 1:12:02 Uh, Cybertruck? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:03 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:12:03 So we're building a big factory here in Austin that's where we'll make the Cybertruck.

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 Yeah. Now did you decide to do this in Austin from the jump or did along the way you decide to move the cyber factory, the Cybertruck factory here?

Elon Musk 1:12:17 Yeah. Well, uh, frankly, I was just ... (laughs) Well, Austin is a bit like mini California. So I was like asking the team in California, "All right, where, where do you wanna... what's your top choice for, you know, uh, next big US factory location? Like where, where do you wanna spend time?" And, uh, the number one choice was Austin. Uh, and then I was like, "Okay. Okay. What's number two?" Uh, silence. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:45 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:12:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 So-

Elon Musk 1:12:49 It's mini California here in Austin.

Joe Rogan 1:12:50 It is a lot, right?

Elon Musk 1:12:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:52 Yeah. It's a, it's, I mean, I, I, I hesitate talking about it 'cause I've talked about it too much, but it's-

Elon Musk 1:12:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:58 ... it's very utopian.

Elon Musk 1:13:00 Yeah. Um-... yeah, we, uh, uh, uh, I think Austin's gonna be the biggest boomtown that America's seen in half a century.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 I think it's a great response to the fucked up government-

Elon Musk 1:13:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:11 ... in some of the other cities.

Elon Musk 1:13:13 (laughs) Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, you know, uh, yeah. Um, I think we, we do, we do need to make sure that Austin does not, uh, you know, people moving from California don't inadvertently recreate the issues that they moved-

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 Yes.

Elon Musk 1:13:28 ... that caused them to move in the first place.

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 Yes.

Elon Musk 1:13:30 Um, so-

Joe Rogan 1:13:31 The balance of Austin is a blue city in a red state and it's-

Elon Musk 1:13:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 ... almost like it kinda has to stay red. Not kinda has to, I think it does. You, you need the certain amount of freedoms, but then you need the philosophical, like there's a, there's a bend to Austin that's very progressive and open-minded and-

Elon Musk 1:13:48 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:13:48 ... artistic and the restaurants are amazing. The people are really cool. But it, it needs to be sort of embraced by guns and God. (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:13:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:59 And freedom.

Elon Musk 1:14:00 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:14:00 Like, that's part of the whole mixture that makes it work and that's, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of, there, there's a, there's a metaphor to life in there somewhere, you know?

Elon Musk 1:14:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 But it's protected by the rest of the philosophy of Texas, which is a wild, crazy place that has more tigers in pr- private collections than in all of the wild of the world.

Elon Musk 1:14:23 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 Yes. I had a bit about it in my-

Elon Musk 1:14:25 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:14:25 ... 2016 special. Texas-

Elon Musk 1:14:29 That's a lot of tigers, man.

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 ... has more tigers-

Elon Musk 1:14:31 Whoa.

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 ... in captivity than all of the wild of planet Earth.

Elon Musk 1:14:37 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:14:37 It's f- yeah.

Elon Musk 1:14:38 Well, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:14:38 These are people's yards.

Elon Musk 1:14:40 (laughs) They've got a tiger-

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 No bullshit.

Elon Musk 1:14:41 ... in their backyard.

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 You can, you could, in, in your place, wherever you live, you could get a fucking zebra, no pro- Like, I have a friend who lives out in Dripping Springs, he saw a zebra.

Elon Musk 1:14:51 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:14:51 A zebra got loose.

Elon Musk 1:14:53 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 There's elk out there.

Elon Musk 1:14:55 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:14:55 Wild elk, just roaming around. Somebody had an elk, it jumped the fence, now there's an elk out there.

Elon Musk 1:15:00 (laughs) This elk-

Joe Rogan 1:15:00 There's axis deer. In my neighborhood, I saw an axis deer.

Elon Musk 1:15:03 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:15:03 I didn't see it, my wife saw it. She described it to me. I know what it is. I said, "That's an a-" She's like, it was like, "It had white spots like a fawn, but it was really big." I'm like, "That's an axis deer." So there's axis-

Elon Musk 1:15:13 That's cool.

Joe Rogan 1:15:13 ... deer. Yeah. They're, they're from India.

Elon Musk 1:15:15 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 And tigers eat them.

Elon Musk 1:15:17 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:15:17 Coincidentally.

Elon Musk 1:15:18 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 But these animals are, they're wild here-

Elon Musk 1:15:21 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 ... because people bought them and they, they put them in their yard and then they jump the fence. This place is crazy, but that's why it works. The reason why it works is because people have so much freedom-

Elon Musk 1:15:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 ... and then you have the University of Texas. You have Austin, which has a long history of art and music, Stevie Ray Vaughan and 6th Street and so many great musicians-

Elon Musk 1:15:42 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:15:42 ... have come from here, that it's got both of these things together. It's got this wild freedom and they embrace both parts of it. You know, this is, that's the cool thing about this place.

Elon Musk 1:15:52 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:15:53 I've never felt more at home. I fucking love it here.

Elon Musk 1:15:56 It's a cool city. Um, like I said, it's gonna be the biggest boomtown in, that America's seen in 50 years at least.

Joe Rogan 1:16:03 Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:16:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 I think so.

Elon Musk 1:16:06 Mega boom.

Joe Rogan 1:16:07 Comedy clubs are moving here like crazy.

Elon Musk 1:16:09 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:09 They're moving here left and right. Cap City's reopening. The Creek and the Cave just announced they're gonna open here.

Elon Musk 1:16:14 That's cool.

Joe Rogan 1:16:14 I'm trying to open up a place here. There's other, other clubs who're trying to open up here. Comedians are moving in here by-

Elon Musk 1:16:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:19 ... the droves. It's a wild place.

Elon Musk 1:16:22 Yeah, well, I, you know, when I saw, uh, you and, and Dave, uh, Chappelle, that was, that was great.

Joe Rogan 1:16:28 That was fun.

Elon Musk 1:16:28 That's a great venue.

Joe Rogan 1:16:29 Yeah, we did that Monday and Tuesday too.

Elon Musk 1:16:31 That's cool.

Joe Rogan 1:16:32 It's, it's just, there's something special going on. It just feels fun. It feels fun to be a part of the escape from this wretched dreariness of, of, you know, the COVID pandemic.

Elon Musk 1:16:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:44 It was just like this horrible feeling of having no power and no autonomy and being controlled by the government.

Elon Musk 1:16:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:50 And being told what to do and it didn't seem logical and you're watching all these businesses fail and you're like, "There has got to be a better way." And they're like-

Elon Musk 1:16:57 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:16:57 ... "There is no better way. Wear an extra mask. Three masks."

Elon Musk 1:17:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:00 "Wear three masks and stay indoors," and holy shit.

Elon Musk 1:17:04 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:05 Yeah, it didn't make any sense.

Elon Musk 1:17:06 No. Um, you can't talk people out of a good panic. They sure love it.

Joe Rogan 1:17:12 (laughs) They love panic porn.

Elon Musk 1:17:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:15 Yeah. Fear porn is like the, that's people's favorite indulgence.

Elon Musk 1:17:18 Yeah. That's why I say, rule number one, just like Douglas Adams-

Joe Rogan 1:17:21 But-

Elon Musk 1:17:21 ... don't panic.

Joe Rogan 1:17:23 ... but there's always people that, that don't and those people, they get together and they, they, they take solace in the fact there's other people that also don't want to buy into this shit.

Elon Musk 1:17:32 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:17:33 You know?

Elon Musk 1:17:35 Yeah. Um, anyway, so Austin's, Austin's cool. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:17:38 So the Cybertruck.

Elon Musk 1:17:40 Yeah, so we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna build it, uh... Our, our factory's only like two miles away from the airport.

Joe Rogan 1:17:45 Oh.

Elon Musk 1:17:45 Um, it's w-

Joe Rogan 1:17:46 Probably shouldn't tell people that.

Elon Musk 1:17:47 No, I mean, you can literally drive-

Joe Rogan 1:17:48 (laughs)

Elon Musk 1:17:48 You can see it from the highway.

Joe Rogan 1:17:51 Do you, do you anticipate visitors?

Elon Musk 1:17:53 Sure. I mean, we'll-

Joe Rogan 1:17:55 Yeah.

Elon Musk 1:17:55 ... we'll, we'll offer tours and that kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 1:17:56 Will you offer, like, if someone wants to come and get their truck from the factory-

Elon Musk 1:18:00 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:18:00 ... and drive it off the floor?

Elon Musk 1:18:01 You bet.

Joe Rogan 1:18:01 Ooh, that's exciting.

Elon Musk 1:18:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 That's exciting.

Elon Musk 1:18:04 We got a lot of land.

Joe Rogan 1:18:06 Yeah. No, I know you-

Elon Musk 1:18:07 We're 2500 acres, uh, right next to the airport.

Joe Rogan 1:18:09 That's fucking cool.

Elon Musk 1:18:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:11 That's amazing.

Elon Musk 1:18:12 It's cool.

Joe Rogan 1:18:13 So when you are designing this Cybertruck, you know, you had your, your launch and you showed the shape of it. There was a lot, like, I sent you a picture. I remember I sent you a picture, I was like, "This is fucking cool." And you're like-

Elon Musk 1:18:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:24 ... "That's not real." And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, there's a lot of fake pictures before-

Elon Musk 1:18:30 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:18:30 ... the, the initial launch.

Elon Musk 1:18:31 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:32 You, you tricked a lot of people because people thought it was going to look much... Even though the, the picture that I sent you was pretty fucking cool-

Elon Musk 1:18:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:18:40 ... what you designed was... Is