Joe Rogan Experience #1615 - Hamilton Morris

1. 0:00 – 2:08

   Catching up in the new Texas studio: the ‘red tube’ setup

   1. HMHamilton Morris0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (energetic music) Hello, Hamilton.

   4. HMHamilton Morris0:16

      Hey, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Good to see you, man. What's happening?

   6. HMHamilton Morris0:18

      Good to see you. None of this.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      This is, uh, our third podcast, but not really. I only count two of them, because of the first one we were literally so stoned we couldn't communicate.

   8. HMHamilton Morris0:28

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      Remember that one?

   10. HMHamilton Morris0:29

       I remember it well.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       (laughs)

   12. HMHamilton Morris0:31

       I like it. I feel like I'm getting the tour. First it was your home, then the LA location, and now this new intermediate red tube.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Yeah, the red tube. Some folks call it the red pill, but that also has a lot of negative connotations.

   14. HMHamilton Morris0:44

       So the red tube, then?

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Yeah. The- the whatever it is. This is, uh, this is podcast studio number one, two, three, four, five? It's number five?

   16. HMHamilton Morris0:59

       It's the third one I've been.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       I think it's number five. It might be number six. One... Yeah. Well, number seven or number six, whichever is right next door and it's gonna be... (smacks lips)

   18. HMHamilton Morris1:11

       Okay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       It's gonna be... All I've learned from constructing podcast studios, this one was very haphazardly constructed last minute, because we made the decision to get the fuck out of LA and we had five weeks. And, uh, my friend Matt Alvarez put this place together in five weeks. Set it all up and then five weeks later we were broadcasting from Texas.

   20. HMHamilton Morris1:33

       It looks good.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       It's not bad. It's okay. It's odd.

   22. HMHamilton Morris1:37

       What is the optimal arrangement going to be?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:40

       The optimal arrangement is probably less weird on the eyes. Like the thing about this is like you're looking around and you're like, "Why are there back lights behind those sound panels? Why is everything red and black?"

   24. HMHamilton Morris1:51

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       Why is it- why is it like- like tube shaped? And it's just- it's an odd room, man. It's odd. But I like- I like it. I just don't- I just think we could do better. We can make it weird. Plus, I'm bored. Get bored easy. Been here for six months. Wanna mix it up.

   26. HMHamilton Morris2:07

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Mix it up.

   28. HMHamilton Morris2:08

       Yeah.

2. 2:08 – 4:04

   Brooklyn in winter COVID: garbage, closures, and the mental toll

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      How's Brooklyn?

   2. HMHamilton Morris2:10

      It's grim.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Is it?

   4. HMHamilton Morris2:11

      It's grim right now.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:12

      Yeah?

   6. HMHamilton Morris2:12

      It's- I've lived in New York for the majority of my life. I love New York City and this is by far the grimmest I have ever seen it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:22

      Really?

   8. HMHamilton Morris2:22

      I mean, this winter, because it's everything that the entire country is facing, but it's the worst for COVID. It's also extremely cold. Um, a lot of city services seem to have been impaired in one way or another. The streets are covered in garbage and ice and dog shit, and-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:42

      Ooh.

   10. HMHamilton Morris2:42

       ... you can't... Pretty much the only thing that I can do to maintain my sanity is run, but everything, including the outdoor running track, is covered in ice and shit.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       Ooh.

   12. HMHamilton Morris2:51

       And so it's just this dystopian, frozen, pandemic landscape where every, um, local business that I loved is closing down. It's a dark time.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       Yeah. Um, I hear that about Los Angeles. I saw a lot of it, but I got out early. I saw the writing on the wall and I was looking to move in May. I just... Once- once the lockdown got extended, once they were like, "We're just gonna lock down for two weeks to flatten the curve," I was like, "That makes sense." And then here we are in April, all the way through April. Here we are in May, and then I'm like, "Oh, they're never gonna let us out of this." And so- and then the crime started happening and the- you know, it started- it started getting dark and I was like, "Oh, we gotta get the fuck out of here." Homeless- the homeless thing was like flowers blooming out of rocks, like out of cracks in the concrete. It's like more tents, tents, tents, tents, tents, tents. Like Los Angeles is filled with tents. Like you can't believe it. Like when I tell people about it and then they go there, they're like, "I thought you were exaggerating." Like no, I was understating. Like Los Angeles is overwhelmed with tents. It's fucking crazy. Like you can't believe that on La Brea they just allow people to set up tents everywhere. It's nuts.

3. 4:04 – 6:25

   Homelessness, economic divides, and the Amazon package-theft ecosystem

   1. HMHamilton Morris4:04

      Well, yeah. What are people going to do?

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      That's the question.

   3. HMHamilton Morris4:07

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:07

      What are people gonna do? Yeah. Where- where are you gonna put them? Do you have hospitals available for them? And a lot of those- the problem is a lot of those shelters, they won't let them do drugs.

   5. HMHamilton Morris4:17

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:17

      And then there's a lot of these people like, "I would rather- rather be in a fucking tent outside by the beach than be under your thumb." Because Los Angeles doesn't get cold, you know? I mean, a cold day is 50°F, you know? What's the big deal?

   7. HMHamilton Morris4:31

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:31

      Just a sleeping bag, you're outside. It's nice.

   9. HMHamilton Morris4:34

      Yeah. It's really emphasized a lot of these economic divides, you know, because everyone in New York just orders everything on Amazon.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Yeah.

   11. HMHamilton Morris4:42

       So every apartment building in every nice part of New York receives a daily shipment of every tenant's stuff from Amazon.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:49

       Mm.

   13. HMHamilton Morris4:50

       And then there's like a secondary economy of people just going into all of the buildings and stealing all of the packages.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       (laughs) Yeah, I've seen a lot of that. Yeah. I've seen a lot of Ring videos, the doorbell camera videos of people stealing shit.

   15. HMHamilton Morris5:03

       Oh yeah. It's almost comical. I mean, I had one where I was loading my car with bags at 2:00 in the morning on a Tuesday and in the lobby of my building for maybe 15 minutes somebody just- as soon as I walk around the corner, someone goes and scoops everything up. Yeah, it's- it's a- it's a wild time. And I hope we're coming out of it. I mean, right when I came to Austin, this is the first time I've, you know, been on an airplane since the beginning of the pandemic. You're the first person I've spoken to without a mask and-

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:35

       No! Really?

   17. HMHamilton Morris5:36

       ... you're not the first face I've seen in months.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       Did you feel weird coming in here?

   19. HMHamilton Morris5:38

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:39

       But you- you knew everyone was tested and everyone's clear?

   21. HMHamilton Morris5:41

       No. No. Yeah. No, I felt fine.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       You did?

   23. HMHamilton Morris5:43

       I've felt- I've just been very careful and because it's all so cold in New York, it just promotes this prison cell-like lifestyle where I'm just sitting in my apartment reading and doing push-ups all day.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       Oh, God.

   25. HMHamilton Morris5:54

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       Ugh.

   27. HMHamilton Morris5:55

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       The dog shit thing is like, uh, so people just don't clean up anymore? They just gave up?

   29. HMHamilton Morris6:01

       You know how it is, it's, it's, there's this kind of tumbling character where things just start to accumulate, and then no one shovels the streets, and then it gets easier. It probably is harder to pick it up because there's just, like, mounting layers of garbage everywhere-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       Oh, God.
4. 6:25 – 8:46

   Lockdowns, restaurant collapse, and the moral argument over staying open

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:25

      The problem that I don't think the people that shut everything down for a fucking year ever take into consideration is that people don't have the resources to bounce back. Things don't bounce back on their own, right? Peop- if, if you wanna start a business, it takes money. Like, it takes quite a bit of money to get a lease, to put, to stock the shelves, to hire employees. And when you've been out of business for a year, you don't have any money. So, you've probably used up all savings, if you had any savings. Try getting a loan when you don't have anything. There's, there's really n- there's no real logical path forward for a lot of these businesses. In Los Angeles, 75% of the restaurants are gone.

   2. HMHamilton Morris7:06

      Oh, yeah. I'm so worried about the restaurants in New York. Yeah, it's terrible. It doesn't seem like it's even talked about sufficiently-

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:12

      No.

   4. HMHamilton Morris7:12

      ... because in New York in the wintertime, I mean, they're really trying. They're doing things that I would've never ... Like, truly extraordinary things, like making these little heated space gazebos-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:23

      Little tent things, yeah.

   6. HMHamilton Morris7:24

      ... that are covered in Mylar on the inside.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:26

      Yeah.

   8. HMHamilton Morris7:26

      And they're ... And, you know, ultimately, most people don't even really want to do that, so then there's this weird conflict of, is it moral to support these businesses because you want them to stay in business, or are you feeding into a system where people are subjecting themselves to unsafe working conditions, and is it actually immoral to go to restaurants? And of course, people endlessly argue about that. Um ...

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:49

      Well, per- personal choices are not immoral, right? So, if the people decide that they're willing to work there and they're masked up and they feel safe working there, isn't that better than not having a choice to work there?

   10. HMHamilton Morris8:02

       I guess the idea is that it ... Instead of people going on unemployment, they are, feel pressured to-

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:10

       Put themselves at risk.

   12. HMHamilton Morris8:12

       ... put themselves at risk-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:12

       Right.

   14. HMHamilton Morris8:12

       ... when they really should be, uh, at home, not potentially spreading coronavirus, and ideally, receiving some sort of government assistance.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:22

       Well, it's al- it's also like, when does the government assistance run out? 'Cause it has run out for a lot of people. There is no more unemployment for a lot of folks. And then on top of that, the way everything's been mismanaged is so terrible in so many ways. Like, why is it okay to be at Target on top of people? Why is it okay to be at Walgreens on top of people, but it's not okay to have these mom and pop stores open, or retail stores?

5. 8:46 – 11:39

   Mask rules and ‘security theater’: contradictions on flights and retail

   1. HMHamilton Morris8:46

      Oh, yeah. Or, you know, like I said, I haven't been on an airplane until I came to see you. But I, of course, I see all these stories in the news that are like, "This guy went on an airplane and he took off his mask and they had to do an emergency landing, and they kicked him off the plane and everyone cheered." And if you haven't been on a plane, you just kind of read that and you think, "Oh, yeah. Wow, that guy sounds like quite an asshole. Good that they kicked him off the plane." But then on the plane, I, then it, I hadn't even considered this, like, what, what is done with snacks? What are the snack provisions? Are there no more peanuts? Is there no water? And if it is served, then everyone has to take off their masks. So, this is all just sort of, like, security theater, because they still serve food and everyone unmasks simultaneously to eat, so there's a period of at least 15 minutes where everyone on the plane is unmasked by the doing of the actual airline.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:38

      Yeah. It's nonsense. It's full nonsense across the board.

   3. HMHamilton Morris9:42

      Well, I think people just don't know what to do. It's, it's, you know, they're aware that all these things are contradictory, everyone is trying to do their best.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:50

      Yeah.

   5. HMHamilton Morris9:50

      They're confused. They don't understand it, even to this day. Um ...

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:54

      People are trying not to be an asshole. You know, when you wear a mask, what you're, what you're basically saying is, "I'm not an asshole." You know? "I'm, I'm gonna go around and I want you to feel like I care, and I want, you know, I want you to feel all right, so I'm gonna wear a mask." But it's not ... I mean, maybe it's protecting s- somewhat. It's not, certainly not 100% safe. You know, like, it's protecting you against droplets if someone sneezes, but you're breathing.

   7. HMHamilton Morris10:20

      Oh, yeah. The masking is definitely good. I think that's pretty well established. But, um, I guess what I don't understand is the hypocrisy. Like, if we have established that masking is good, then we also have to not have snacks on the-

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:33

      Yeah.

   9. HMHamilton Morris10:34

      ... flight. But-

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       Or water.

   11. HMHamilton Morris10:35

       Or water.

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:36

       Yeah.

   13. HMHamilton Morris10:36

       But, yeah. So then, what do you do?

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       You're on top of each other, sitting three people next to each other. I mean, it's like the l- literally the opposite of social distancing.

   15. HMHamilton Morris10:42

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:42

       It's incredibly intimate. You don't even know these people and you're touching elbows with them.

   17. HMHamilton Morris10:46

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:46

       It's crazy.

   19. HMHamilton Morris10:47

       Yeah. I mean, and this was why when it started, I was one of these people that, you know, I was thinking, "Well, I, you know, I work in media. I know the way the media blows everything out of proportion. I remember swine flu. I know that they sell newspapers by making everyone terrified. This can't possibly be as bad as people think it is." And I was sort of in COVID denial. And I was also in the middle of filming the third season of my TV show, so I was just sort of seduced by the momentum of production and didn't want it to end. And, uh, and people were saying, you know, "I don't think we can film anymore. I think we have to stop." And I thought, "What? Is the world going to shut down?"

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:26

       Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

   21. HMHamilton Morris11:26

       Is, is the w- Like, this is unprecedented.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:29

       Yeah.

   23. HMHamilton Morris11:29

       The, the world isn't going to shut down. We're not going to be kept in our apartments. It's just not conceivable that such a thing could happen.

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:38

       Cut to-

   25. HMHamilton Morris11:39

       (laughs)

6. 11:39 – 18:37

   Immune health vs pharma fixes—and how COVID treatments got politicized

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:39

      ... one year later. But it's not everywhere, and that's what's interesting. And here's the, the big thing. There's been no emphasis whatsoever on steps that you should take to make yourself healthier-There's been no discussion of reducing obesity, you gotta lose weight, you've gotta take vitamins. There, you've gotta do something to make sure that your immune system is strong. Like, "Here are the steps that you can take. Here's what we know about vitamin D." There's multiple studies that show that people in the ICU for COVID, 84% of 'em have, uh, insufficient levels of vitamin D, and there's a significant correlation between low levels of vitamin D and weakened immune system. They found only 4% of people in the ICU with COVID have, uh, sufficient levels of vitamin D. That's just one thing. They know about zinc and ionophores like quercetin, that quercetin, uh, allows zinc to get in the cell much more readily. It- it's, it's m- much, uh, more bioavailable and it protects you against viruses. They know that vitamin C is also excellent for your immune system. They know that water is excellent for your immune system. There's peer-reviewed studies on this stuff.

   2. HMHamilton Morris12:49

      Yeah. No, I know. I know. But it's, it's really hard to make those claims because even if they do confer some kind of therapeutic benefit, it doesn't seemingly prevent coronavirus infection. And I think there has been some emphasis on obesity as a contributing factor to-

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      It's a, one of the biggest-

   4. HMHamilton Morris13:06

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:06

      ... comorbidity factors.

   6. HMHamilton Morris13:07

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      Yeah. It's huge.

   8. HMHamilton Morris13:08

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:09

      The thing about it is though, it does protect you somewhat from viruses. It does pr- keep your immune system strong.

   10. HMHamilton Morris13:17

       Y-

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:17

       I'll send you some studies.

   12. HMHamilton Morris13:18

       Okay. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:18

       I'll send you, there's some interesting stuff on, on, uh, zinc and quercetin that my doctor, Dr. Gordon, who is a specialist on this stuff, has sent me, and, you know, recognizing there's, there's significant steps that you can take with, with nutrients-

   14. HMHamilton Morris13:34

       Yeah. I think-

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:34

       ... to, to boost your immune system.

   16. HMHamilton Morris13:36

       Yeah. I mean, the pace of medicine is just too slow usually to immediately address things like this in a really meaningful way.

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       Well, also medicine is divorced from nutrients. The thing is, the thing about medicine is people are looking for a pharmaceutical cure. They're looking for, you know, things that we know are gonna work. Whatever the medication is, whether it's a treatment or whether it's, uh, a vaccine, or whatever it is, we're looking for some sort of a medicine. But there's a lot of things that you can do to strengthen your immune system with nutrients and with exercise and with healthy diet, and it's just not emphasized enough. It- it's not discussed enough.

   18. HMHamilton Morris14:15

       Yeah, because I think, you know, you need really strong evidence.

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:18

       Mm-hmm.

   20. HMHamilton Morris14:18

       And I- I've gone through all these different cycles. Like I went first through the denial cycle where I was like, "It can't possibly be this bad. It's gotta be a hype thing." Then I went through the, uh, "Okay, well, maybe there's some antiviral agent that's in circulation right now," because everyone knew that there was no way that a vaccine would be developed immediately, that it would take a year, which it did. And so the only hope at that time was a small molecule antiviral therapy of one kind or another. So everyone who knew anything about medicinal chemistry or pharmacology was hoping that we'd find something, and that's why there was so much interest in chloroquine. Um, you know, it, it became like everything today, totally politicized. But-

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:00

       That's the problem, right?

   22. HMHamilton Morris15:01

       ... it, it is. I think it's a huge problem-

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       Yeah.

   24. HMHamilton Morris15:03

       ... because, you know, like a molecule shouldn't be politicized.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       Yeah.

   26. HMHamilton Morris15:08

       It should have efficacy or not, but it shouldn't be a Republican molecule or a Democrat molecule.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:13

       Like anything attached to Trump becomes poison.

   28. HMHamilton Morris15:16

       Well, if he-

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:16

       Even if that's like the... If you were an evil person and you wanted the world to be fucked, what you would do is get Trump to re- promote everything good for you (laughs) .

   30. HMHamilton Morris15:25

       Yeah. And I can, I can provide maybe a little bit of insight into that because I saw... So when, when all this was happening, um, the, there were, you know, a few antiviral therapies that people were talking about like remdesivir and favipiravir.
7. 18:37 – 21:25

   Leaving New York and leaving TV: Hamilton’s shift toward full-time chemistry

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:37

      Have you considered moving somewhere other than Brooklyn?

   2. HMHamilton Morris18:41

      Um, well, I was still making my show in Brooklyn, so I couldn't move. And now it s- seems to be, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. It seems like it's on its way out, so ... And I, and I like Brooklyn.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:55

      Hmm. Yeah.

   4. HMHamilton Morris18:56

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:56

      I know you do.

   6. HMHamilton Morris18:56

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:57

      Did you read, uh, James Altucher's piece about New York is, uh, gone, it's never coming back? Did you-

   8. HMHamilton Morris19:03

      I-

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:03

      ... read that?

   10. HMHamilton Morris19:03

       No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:04

       It was a very controversial piece. J- Altucher is a, I think he's a stockbroker, but he's also one of the owners of The Stand, which is a famous comedy club in New York. And, uh, is that what he owns?

   12. NANarrator19:16

       I think so.

   13. HMHamilton Morris19:16

       Yeah, I think that's it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:17

       (clears throat) And, uh, he wrote this piece about New York in this very detailed step-by-step, uh, analysis of all the things that are wrong that you just can't resolve, that are not gonna r- be resolved very quickly, including the crime, including the, the number of people that are moving out, including the, uh, th- the number of businesses that have failed, including, you know, just, uh, across the board. It's more dystopian.

   15. HMHamilton Morris19:44

       Oh, yeah. And I actually, I am probably moving out of New York as well.

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:47

       (laughs)

   17. HMHamilton Morris19:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:48

       Where you going?

   19. HMHamilton Morris19:49

       I think I'm gonna move to Philadelphia.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:50

       Philadelphia's nice.

   21. HMHamilton Morris19:51

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:51

       I love Philly.

   23. HMHamilton Morris19:52

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:53

       Why Philly? Why'd you choose that?

   25. HMHamilton Morris19:54

       Uh, the, a lab that I work at is in Philadelphia, and I think I'm gonna start doing chemistry full time.

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:59

       Really?

   27. HMHamilton Morris19:59

       Yes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       You're gonna stop doing your show?

   29. HMHamilton Morris20:01

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:02

       Why?
8. 21:25 – 32:17

   Psychedelic research funding, neurogenesis claims, and microdosing skepticism

   1. HMHamilton Morris21:25

      Uh, well, this is a really extraordinary time right now. Um, and for the last decade or so, when I've done this chemistry work with this brilliant chemist named Jason Walick, there's been no funding whatsoever for this work. The university pays for a little bit of it. Uh, Tim Ferriss once was really nice and gave me a few thousand dollars to synthesize a, a radioactive psychedelic for an experiment. But there was no funding. And-

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:50

      Radioactive psychedelic?

   3. HMHamilton Morris21:51

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:52

      What are you doing, man?

   5. HMHamilton Morris21:53

      (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:54

      Are you (laughs) got some Spider-Man shit going on?

   7. HMHamilton Morris21:56

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:57

      What's happening?

   9. HMHamilton Morris21:57

      It's a, it's an old technique called autoradiography, where you can chart the migration of a molecule and its distribution in tissue by looking at the distribution of the radioactivity. But, um, but there was no funding for it. And the idea of ever getting money to research psychedelics, it would always have to be sort of distorted into research on schizophrenia, or you couldn't just say, "I'm studying psychedelics," and-

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:23

       What if you go to Oregon?

   11. HMHamilton Morris22:25

       Well, that, that, that might have some legal advantages, but this is just a funding thing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:30

       Right.

   13. HMHamilton Morris22:30

       And, and I wasn't ... It just didn't seem like it was th- ... I wasn't in it for that reason anyway.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       Right.

   15. HMHamilton Morris22:37

       And, you know, it didn't cost all that money, uh, all that much money to begin with. And so, I would pay for little bits of things, and you can stretch a few thousand dollars a long way in a chemistry lab. But now things are changing, and there's a lot of support for research on psychedelics.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:52

       You know, there's actually a psychedelic program with the UFC.

   17. HMHamilton Morris22:56

       I did not know that.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:56

       Yeah. John Hopkins, uh, is, uh, doing, uh, studies with former fighters and current fighters on CTE. Um, one of the things about psilocybin that we know is that psilocybin actually helps regrow neurons. You know, it's one of the few things that really helps fighters with brain damage. And so they're, they're conducting some studies right now.

   19. HMHamilton Morris23:17

       That's amazing.

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:18

       And they're ... Yeah, it's really amazing. And they're doing some therapies, and I hope to get these guys on soon and talk to them about what they've done and what they're doing. But, you know, lion's mane is good for m- for, for the brain, and there's, uh, several other different mushrooms. But psychedelics in general, particularly psilocybin. What do, what do you know about psilocybin and the growth of, uh, neurons in, in people with brain damage? Do you know anything?

   21. HMHamilton Morris23:40

       Yeah, I mean, this is a hot area of research.

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:42

       Mm-hmm.

   23. HMHamilton Morris23:42

       There is someone named David Olson who's been publishing a lot of papers recently on psychedelic-induced neurogenesis, although most of his papers are oriented toward, um, neurogenesis-inducing psychedelic derivatives that aren't actually psychedelic.

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:57

       Hmm.

   25. HMHamilton Morris23:57

       Um, but yeah, this is-

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:59

       Which is a great way to start it off, right? So then people are not experiencing psychoactive effects, doesn't change their state of consciousness. They're sober.

   27. HMHamilton Morris24:06

       Arguably it is, yeah. I, I do wonder, because, you know, uh-There have been a number of compounds, one notable one called NSI-189, that are very potent neurogenesis-inducing agents that, um, do not have a impressive therapeutic effect that failed in clinical trials, so it's not as simple as just neurogenesis equals good.

   28. JRJoe Rogan24:29

       Mm-hmm.

   29. HMHamilton Morris24:30

       You know? There, there needs to be something else, it seems, and the literature is contradictory. I think all these things are in their infancy, and we're just now starting to realize even a, a, a small fraction of their potential, and I think that, um, there's an idea, a widely believed idea that the reason that there's no medical scientific research on psychedelics, or at least there wasn't for a very long time, is because the government shut it all down. Right? The government said, "These are evil drugs. No scientist is allowed to use them." And that was part of it, but that wasn't the whole picture. And what was ... You know, there was a, a group in Maryland, um, called the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, and they were the last group doing psychedelic research up until 1977, and then there was a big gap until Rick Strassman started his DMT studies in the late '80s, early '90s. So, at the time that they were doing that psychedelic research that ended in 1977, they were just running out of funding. There wasn't a lot of interest in what they were doing.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:34

       Mm-hmm.
9. 32:17 – 41:44

   Forgotten drug history: ibogaine microdosing, Monaz, and black-market ecology

   1. HMHamilton Morris32:17

      ... change of one kind or another. I mean, this has even been approved medicinally in the past, both with when ibogaine was a pharmaceutical product under the name Lambarene in France. It was-

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:28

      Really?

   3. HMHamilton Morris32:28

      Yeah, and it was essentially pharmaceutical ibogaine microdosing. That was-

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:32

      No shit.

   5. HMHamilton Morris32:33

      It wasn't psychedelic ibogaine that they were prescribing.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:35

      When were they doing this?

   7. HMHamilton Morris32:36

      This was in the '50s, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:38

      Wow. When did they stop?

   9. HMHamilton Morris32:41

      I think they stopped it in the-

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:43

       '51. (laughs)

   11. HMHamilton Morris32:43

       (laughs) No, no, you can find... There's like French adventure novels that are, that are like, "As I ascended the volcano, I took two Lambarene to give myself the strength to reach the summit." You know?

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:55

       Wow.

   13. HMHamilton Morris32:55

       It was just, it was just a stimulant that people took. There was no discussion whatsoever of ibogaine as a psychedelic.

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       Have you microdosed ibogaine?

   15. HMHamilton Morris33:04

       I have, yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       What did it do for you?

   17. HMHamilton Morris33:05

       Um, I think that it is... At 20 milligrams, 20 to 25 milligrams, it exerts no psychedelic effect whatsoever and feels almost like a, a mild stimulant and maybe, uh, almost like a mild antidepressant. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       And the... It's called Lambarene? That's what they called it?

   19. HMHamilton Morris33:24

       Lambarene was the French-

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:25

       Lambarene?

   21. HMHamilton Morris33:25

       ... brand name for ibogaine.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       What, what would two Lambarenes be in, in terms of milligrams?

   23. HMHamilton Morris33:30

       Uh, I think they were seven milligram tablets, so-

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:33

       So around the same range.

   25. HMHamilton Morris33:34

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       14-ish.

   27. HMHamilton Morris33:35

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:36

       Yeah. Interesting. That's, uh, that's... It's weird that they stopped. I wonder why they stopped.

   29. HMHamilton Morris33:42

       And another one is, there used to be an MDMA type compound called alpha-ethyltryptamine, now a Schedule I controlled substance in the United States, that was approved in the United States as an antidepressant under the brand name Monaz, and it was a, basically like a microdose of MDMA. This was done pharmaceutically in our country, but it's totally forgotten about.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:01

       When was that?
10. 41:44 – 56:49

    Drug stigma, Carl Hart, and the ‘music as medicine’ analogy for freedom

    1. JRJoe Rogan41:44

       (laughs) Just have you been paying attention to all the controversy about his new book?

    2. HMHamilton Morris41:48

       Of course. Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan41:48

       Really interesting.

    4. HMHamilton Morris41:49

       It is really interesting. I mean, I read it cover to cover. It's great. I-

    5. JRJoe Rogan41:51

       I love that guy.

    6. HMHamilton Morris41:52

       Me too.

    7. JRJoe Rogan41:53

       He's so brave. Like the way he talks about things to... For the guy to be a professor at Columbia and to just be openly stating, "I enjoy heroin and it makes me feel good. It makes me compassionate." You know, and, and he, he uses pure heroin. He likes to sniff it.

    8. HMHamilton Morris42:09

       It's tremendously brave. And-I, you know, I was working on my show for such a long time and you're doing it in isolation, and then it comes out and you're wondering what people think of it. So, I was name searching myself and saw some Reddit thread of all these people kind of insulting Carl Hart. And I just felt like, I think the average person doesn't get it. I don't think they understand exactly how brave Carl Hart is.

    9. JRJoe Rogan42:31

       Yeah.

    10. HMHamilton Morris42:31

        Because I have traveled around the world, I've interviewed countless academics, I've been in academic circles throughout my life. Drug use of the sort that he describes is extremely common. It's extremely common. But being honest about it is incredibly rare and is commendable. And, and if more people were like him, I think a lot of these stigmas would be reduced. And I've even heard people say, "Well, how dare he reduce the stigmas associated with these things? That's cruel."

    11. JRJoe Rogan43:01

        Hmm.

    12. HMHamilton Morris43:01

        "If you reduce the stigmas, you're hurting people. They should be stigmatized." No, they should not be stigmatized. Maybe they shouldn't be encouraged, but if you find yourself in that sort of situation, you shouldn't be ashamed. You should see it as, if anything, a medical problem or a social problem, not something that you need to be hated for.

    13. JRJoe Rogan43:20

        Right. 'Cause we're not, we don't hate people for being alcoholics. Right? We praise them for their sobriety. Like when they get their 90-day chip or whatever they get. You know, people say, they don't, they look at you like, you know, you're, you're some sort of a fool because you couldn't handle alcohol. They go, "Oh, he was an alcoholic, but he sobered himself up. Good for him."

    14. HMHamilton Morris43:40

        Oh, yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan43:41

        Yeah. You know, heroin use is just so stigmatized and I'm not a heroin user, I haven't used heroin, but I did have a morphine drip once when I had a, a surgery. It was awesome. Oh, my God, I kept hammering that thing. You press a button to give you a morphine drip. I had knee surgery and, uh, I was in the hospital and I was on this perpetual motion machine. You ever seen one of those?

    16. HMHamilton Morris44:02

        (laughs) I haven't.

    17. JRJoe Rogan44:02

        'Cause I had an ACL reconstruction, arterial cruciate ligament. It's a big injury. They take a piece of your patella tendon, a piece of your shin bone, and a piece of your knee, and they open you up and screw 'em and drill 'em in place. Pretty fucking painful. And so while you're lying in bed, my knee is on this thing and it's going, like, bending and straightening my knee over and over and over again. And I'm lying in there and they give you a drip. And anytime you want, just press that button and you get a little drip of morphine. And I'm going bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And it's just, ah, I felt so good. I felt so good. I was like, "Oh, now I get it." Now I know why people like this shit. And morphine's basically heroin, right? Pretty close.

    18. HMHamilton Morris44:47

        Extremely close. Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan44:48

        Yeah.

    20. HMHamilton Morris44:49

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan44:49

        I get it.

    22. HMHamilton Morris44:50

        Diamorphine.

    23. JRJoe Rogan44:51

        I get it.

    24. HMHamilton Morris44:51

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan44:51

        It's probably awesome.

    26. HMHamilton Morris44:53

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan44:53

        But for him, you know, he's, he's talking about pure heroin, small amounts. He understands it. He's a chemist, you know what I mean? He, he really gets it, you know? He's a research scientist. You understand? You know, he was a complete straight-laced guy. Wasn't doing anything till he was in his 30s.

    28. HMHamilton Morris45:10

        Yeah, I know.

    29. JRJoe Rogan45:12

        Pretty crazy story.

    30. HMHamilton Morris45:13

        It is a crazy story. And what I really appreciate about what he does is I think there's a lot of perhaps justified insecurity in the world of drugs. So, people have been oppressed for such a long time that they need a justification of some kind. "I'm using psychedelics because it's religious. I'm using psychedelics because it's medical, it's a therapy. I'm using psychedelics because it's traditional, it's part of my religion. I'm using psychedelics for this reason or that reason." It's very rare that people will just stand up and say, "I'm using these things because that's my freedom."
11. 56:49 – 1:06:35

    Nicotine, cigars, vaping, and the deeper issue of dependence

    1. JRJoe Rogan56:49

       Yeah. Do you ever smoke cigars?

    2. HMHamilton Morris56:50

       I have, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan56:51

       Do you like those?

    4. HMHamilton Morris56:52

       Yeah, they're all right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan56:53

       They're all right?

    6. HMHamilton Morris56:53

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan56:54

       Not much? You're not into them?

    8. HMHamilton Morris56:55

       I mean, I, I, I'm very conflicted about nicotine because I really like it a lot, but-

    9. JRJoe Rogan56:59

       Want a cigar right now?

    10. HMHamilton Morris56:59

        (sighs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan57:00

        Got one right over there.

    12. HMHamilton Morris57:01

        I'm sort of tempted.

    13. JRJoe Rogan57:02

        Okay, let's have one.

    14. HMHamilton Morris57:03

        I mean ... Okay, all right, let's do it. (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan57:06

        (laughs) That's all they need to hear.

    16. HMHamilton Morris57:08

        (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan57:08

        I'm the devil.

    18. HMHamilton Morris57:11

        This is peer pressure.

    19. JRJoe Rogan57:13

        Oh, no, no. This is all good.

    20. HMHamilton Morris57:15

        No, no, it is good.

    21. JRJoe Rogan57:15

        Let's see if we got some good ones here. Here we go. Ah, there we go.

    22. HMHamilton Morris57:22

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan57:22

        Hamilton. Now I'm gonna enjoy some nicotine like Americans! We can do what we want, they can't stop us.

    24. HMHamilton Morris57:30

        (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:31

        Was it supposed to be bad for you? You're not scared, are you, Hamilton?

    26. HMHamilton Morris57:36

        No, I'm a, I'm a lover of tobacco. I think it's an amazing plant.

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:39

        Wanna smoke some, bro? Here you go. Here's a torch. There's a cigar-

    28. HMHamilton Morris57:45

        Wow.

    29. JRJoe Rogan57:45

        ... and here's a torch. Hit that bad boy. Do you know how to use that?

    30. HMHamilton Morris57:47

        Here we go.
12. 1:06:35 – 1:24:45

    Opioids beyond headlines: Narcan, withdrawal, tianeptine, and ‘opiophobia’

    1. HMHamilton Morris1:06:35

       Um, you know, for a lot of people, it might start with back pain or something like that, and you start taking the opioid and it helps, you become dependent, and then at the time that you have to stop, you haven't done anything to address the root cause of the back pain. So, if you stop, you have all the back pain that you started with, which it may even be worse than it started, and you've got to deal with...... opioid withdrawal, and it, it makes it very hard for people. So, I do have, you know, a lot of compassion for the people that get mixed up in that. That said, and I got into trouble for saying this last time I was on the podcast, I made a point that I felt the way that opioids were discussed, um, everyone acted like it was a big surprise that they were addictive. Like, "We, we found evidence that Purdue knew oxycodone is addictive and we, they knew this all along." And this is the thing that I find a little bit difficult to stomach. Um, people have known that opioids produce dependence of one kind or another for hundreds of years, if not thousands. The first medically reported cases of oxycodone addiction that I'm aware of are from 1914. In 1914, there was a medical term for oxycodone addiction called "euclidism" because the brand name for oxycodone at that time was Euclid. And this was something that has been known about for over a century. Now, I'm not suggesting that every medical doctor has read whatever obscure literature that I'm aware of. I know that they haven't, and that's fine. But what I find a little bit off-putting is how, how could I as a high school student in Massachusetts ha- have had an intuitive awareness that Percocet was a recreational drug, that Percocet was a drug that if you get a prescription for it, that's gonna be fun, that's gonna be an enjoyable one? And then somehow these people that studied medicine were so unaware, and almost all of the blame has been placed on the pharmaceutical companies who, make no mistake, behaved very badly. They did what pharmaceutical companies do, they tried to sell their product and they manipulated... I mean, they infiltrated medical education, they changed the very way that pain was conceptualized and went from saying that it was something that you had to deal with, to something that should be treated compassionately, and it caused a fundamental philosophical shift in the medical community. That's an impressive maneuver for them to have pulled off. But still, at what point are doctors responsible for not recognizing that their patients have become dependent? And at what point are people responsible for recognizing their own dependence? If we put all of the blame on pharmaceutical companies, it's ultimately a very disempowering position that won't protect us in the future, because there will always be somebody trying to sell us something that's bad for our health. And to some extent, for better or worse, it will always be our responsibility to protect ourselves.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:09:33

       So, do you think the responsibility falls on the doctors? Do you think the r- responsibility falls to the patients? A combination of both?

    3. HMHamilton Morris1:09:38

       Combination of both. Um, and I...

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:09:42

       Mm-hmm.

    5. HMHamilton Morris1:09:42

       And it, and it falls on the pharmaceutical company as well, make no mistake. But here's the thing, there's no, there's nothing mysterious about oxycodone addiction. This should not have been a curveball for anyone. This is a simple derivative of morphine. You have morphine, you have heroin, you have oxycodone, hydrocodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, and so on. They're all in this chemical class called morphinans and they're all basically similar. I'm sure there's some ophiophile listening to me say this who's gonna do a spit take, but they're-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:10

       (laughs)

    7. HMHamilton Morris1:10:10

       ... they're pretty similar how-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:11

       Ophiophiles. (laughs)

    9. HMHamilton Morris1:10:14

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:10:15

        Is there a magazine, like audiophile? Ophiophile magazine?

    11. HMHamilton Morris1:10:18

        (laughs)

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:10:19

        Just a, a dude on a couch like this.

    13. HMHamilton Morris1:10:20

        Oh. Oh. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:10:23

        Right.

    15. HMHamilton Morris1:10:24

        But, but, um, they're very similar drugs that are very, very well characterized medically. This is not some newfangled thing that no one... This is not some, you know, RNA therapy that just was invented, uh, a year ago that no one had ever known about, that no one could have anticipated. These are simple derivatives of morphine that have been known about medically for thousands of years. And so the idea that no one could have predicted this is something that I find a little bit hard to stomach, and I think that it's a dangerous oversimplification of the phenomenon that will ultimately harm people.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:10:58

        Mm-hmm.

    17. HMHamilton Morris1:10:59

        Because if you don't take... If you don't... If you just point a finger at a bad guy and say it's, "Oh, it's the bad guy's fault," and then it's easier for you because you don't have to assume any personal responsibility, and you don't have to think that your physician was maybe complicit in something that was damaging to your mental and physical health, and so it was all Mortimer Sackler cackling and counting his blood money at Purdue Pharmaceuticals.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:20

        (laughs)

    19. HMHamilton Morris1:11:22

        But, you know, I don't, I don't buy that narrative as being as simple as it is.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:11:27

        Yeah, there, there is an infantilization of our society that we've gone, like, you know, they, "We didn't even know that cigarettes were bad for you." Well, pe- pe- people have known cigarettes are bad for you for a long time. "We didn't even know that this could..." Like, y- people don't take responsibility for what they put into their body, and they assume that these people that are taking it had no knowledge whatsoever. We don't put any onus on them to do any research or look... Especially today with the internet, you know, you can kind of research basically anything while you're waiting to go into the doctor's office, or while you're sitting in the doctor's office. "You know, Johnny, I'm gonna give you Vicodin." You're like, "Vicodin? Hold on a second, Doctor." And you could just Google that and go, "Hmm, seems like Vicodin could be an issue."

    21. HMHamilton Morris1:12:10

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:12:10

        Like, what about this constipation thing? What about the... I was watching this, uh, show the other day. One thing that does disturb me is, uh, commercials... That cigar might suck. I feel like I wanna give you another one. There's something about these.

    23. HMHamilton Morris1:12:25

        Another 10-minute cigar light.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:12:27

        They're not, uh, they're not...

    25. HMHamilton Morris1:12:28

        (laughs) Waiting.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:12:29

        For whatever reason, they're not staying lit.

    27. HMHamilton Morris1:12:31

        Intermission. (lighter clicks) Oh.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:12:34

        Mm.

    29. HMHamilton Morris1:12:34

        (slaps leg)

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:12:36

        Oh, this one's okay. I got it going now. Uh, I was watching a show the other day and there was this commercial for some migraine medicine, and then they do the thing where they play the music, you know, they got this kind of upbeat, cheery music, you know, that this might, you know, you take one of these a month and it's gonna keep you from getting migraines. And then it goes over the list of all the stuff that could happen to you if you take this stuff. It's the weirdest thing that they sort of kind of like glosso and then say it while the cheery music's going on. "You might die. You might get, uh, constipation to the point where you gotta go to the doctor." (laughs) You know, like, there's all these different things that they... And they say, "Ask your doctor about this stuff." Like, it seems really weird that they can advertise that. Like, you have a problem-

Episode duration: 2:47:43