Joe Rogan Experience #1624 - Mark Sisson

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. MSMark Sisson0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) All right, here we go. (instrumental music plays) Time flies, Mark.

   3. MSMark Sisson0:16

      It sure does, man.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      How's it been five years?

   5. MSMark Sisson0:18

      A little over five years, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      That's ridiculous.

   7. MSMark Sisson0:20

      I know. But-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      I feel like I saw you, like, eight months ago.

   9. MSMark Sisson0:22

      I know, and the world has changed.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       Yeah, a little bit.

   11. MSMark Sisson0:24

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Little bit.

   13. MSMark Sisson0:25

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       And you're in Florida now. We were talking about this.

   15. MSMark Sisson0:28

       Yep.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       I wanted to save it for the camera, 'cause you were gonna tell me how great you like Miami.

   17. MSMark Sisson0:32

       Well, um, you know, I, I grew up in Maine. And, uh, when I w- was in New England, Miami was sort of the place where, you know, only old people went, and it had all of the clichés behind it and I never really thought much about living there. And then when I lived in Malibu, I'm like, "Okay, this is, this is the cat's ass. This is the best place ever, Malibu." Well, um, much like yourself, Joe, I got a little bit disillusioned with California over the years, and, um, thought that I would, uh, try a different location, particularly one that didn't have any, uh, personal taxes. Uh, and, you know, we had gone to Miami Beach, uh, for a week every year for vacation, so we felt like we knew it. And then (laughs) we wound up, um, saying, "You know what? Let's try it for a year and see if we like it and we'll move out of California, and if w- it doesn't work, we'll move back." And I'm telling you, man, a year in, I'm like, "This is like summer camp and a spa and a playground every single day." I mean, the, uh, look, the water's 20 degrees warmer on any given day. The sand is nicer. The women are a little bit, you know, m- dressed a little bit more provocatively. Uh, I've got a great gym. Uh, I, I do stand-up paddling. Um, I've got an eFoil, an electric foil that I use, uh, a fat bike. Uh, I found a-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       What's a, what's a fat bike?

   19. MSMark Sisson1:48

       A fat bike is a, is those, uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       Fat tires?

   21. MSMark Sisson1:51

       ... met- like, fat tire bike, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:52

       Oh.

   23. MSMark Sisson1:52

       We should, we should probably, given the current turn- tenor, we shouldn't probably call it a fat bike anymore.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:56

       Yeah, let's call it a fat bike.

   25. MSMark Sisson1:57

       It's more of, like, a, a pneumatically challenged bike. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       It's a male. It's okay. You can call it a fat bike-

   27. MSMark Sisson2:01

       That's right. (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:02

       ... 'cause it's a male. No one cares.

   29. MSMark Sisson2:02

       Exactly. Um, and so I ride in the, in the sand with some friends, and I, I ride with my wife. My wife has an electric one, so she can keep up with me. But I mean, it's, it's amazing. It's li- just like, like, every day, I feel like, you know, I'm a kid on vacation.

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:16

       Wow. That's a good endorsement.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      Yeah.

   2. MSMark Sisson15:01

      Um, it just makes no sense. I think this is the, the single biggest mismanaged event in human history. And-

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      Wow.

   4. MSMark Sisson15:08

      Yeah. Name another. Name one that was more mismanaged than this.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      Well, I think there's also part of the problem is that people have a really hard time adjusting once they make an initial, uh, observation or, or, or an initial plan of attack. And the initial plan of attack was that COVID was gonna s- be something that killed a massive amount of people, far more.

   6. MSMark Sisson15:27

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      We thought it was gonna kill like 10% of the people, and it was gonna be a bloodbath, it was gonna be, uh, uh, uh similar to the Spanish flu. We were terrified, a year ago.

   8. MSMark Sisson15:36

      Yep.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      And once a lot of people got it and then once really healthy people got it, and that's once, once we realized that, how many asymptomatic ... I remember in the beginning, someone was telling me, "Well, they're asymptomatic initially, but they're gonna get symptoms." No.

   10. MSMark Sisson15:50

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       My fucking real estate lady, she's 46 years old. She- she's fit, she works out. She didn't even know she had it. She was go- she was scheduled to go to a ... for a vacation in, um, the Bahamas or something like that, and she had to take a test. She took the test, turns out positive. She couldn't believe it. Took it again, turns out positive. Couldn't believe it. Took it again-

   12. MSMark Sisson16:08

       Mm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       ... turns out positive. "Okay, I've got COVID." So she sits home and watches movies for 10 days, never feels the goddamn thing. Like, this idea that your, your immune system is incapable of pre- preventing a, a serious infection, incapable of protecting you, that once you're exposed, it's like a demon and it's gonna take you over, this is how everybody was treating it a year ago.

   14. MSMark Sisson16:27

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       A year later, now we know that that's not the case, but there's still ridiculous people out there that are, they're, they're in- excited by being afraid. Like, I don't know if you saw that clip with Ted Cruz yesterday. Ted Cruz was, uh, addressing a bunch of reporters, and one of the reporters asked him to put his mask on-

   16. MSMark Sisson16:47

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       ... outside. Whether ... J-

   18. MSMark Sisson16:49

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       He's like, "No, I'm not gonna put my m-" I think it was outside. Might have been ... I don't know. Either way. He's been immunized, by the way. He's been, he's been vaccinated. So he's like, "I'm not gonna do that while I'm talking on the camera." And the guy goes, "Well, it'll make me feel better." He goes, "Well, you feel- feel free to step away."

   20. MSMark Sisson17:05

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       You know? Like, I don't know what to tell you, but there's a thing where people, first of all, like telling people to put a mask on. There's a lot of really fucking annoying people that look for an opportunity to tell people what to do, and this is one of those things. Tell people to be scared, tell people to get vaccinated, tell people to put a mask on. There's a bunch of like, really annoying people that enjoy telling people what to do, and that's what you saw with that Ted Cruz thing.

   22. MSMark Sisson17:28

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Did you see it?

   24. MSMark Sisson17:29

       I didn't see that, but I've seen-

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       It's adorable.

   26. MSMark Sisson17:31

       I've seen ... Yeah. I've seen a, a number of ... I've been involved in a number of incidents like that. Like, I, I don't wear a mask when I'm outside, um, primarily now because I had COVID. I can't get it. I can't give it. So I feel like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       Well, not only that. The data shows-

   28. MSMark Sisson17:46

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       ... that it dies in contact with UV light.

   30. MSMark Sisson17:49

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Totally. And I wonder…

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      mindset is never the mindset of trimming down and cutting away and, "Oh, this is what the problem is." The, the, the mindset is just in regulation, and that's the California mindset.

   2. MSMark Sisson30:09

      Totally. And I wonder what it is a... Because it seems to, you know, cross all from local, local government to, you know, state government to even federal government, you run for office...... uh, I guess p- presumably on a platform of you're going to do something, you're going to accomplish something-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:25

      Yeah.

   4. MSMark Sisson30:25

      ... you're going to enact legislation. And, you know, what if, for a couple of years people got elected and all they were asked to do was pare back legislation and, and look at all the stuff that they ... that the previous administrations wrote that didn't work and unwind it? Wouldn't that be something?

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:40

      I wonder if that'll happen now?

   6. MSMark Sisson30:41

      No, it's not gonna happen.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:41

      I wonder... But I wonder if in some places people recognized the, the errors of our ways over the last year? Because it's one thing that, uh, has been exposed over the last year, more than anything in my lifetime, is how important it is to have a mayor that's not a moron, how important it is to have a governor that's not a moron. And, and a governor that understands that like you, you have to give people freedom. They have to maintain their freedom. You cannot decide that someone's business is not essential because it's not essential for you. It's essential for them. It's the only way they feed themselves. It's fucking essential.

   8. MSMark Sisson31:14

      100%.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:14

      You know? And there's a lot of essential businesses that, that got labeled non-essential, which is, by the way, terrible for peoples' self-esteem, mental health. It's awful across the board. And then the economy suffers a gigantic hit because these businesses go under. C- California has famously lost 75% of its restaurants in, in, in Los Angeles, at least.

   10. MSMark Sisson31:34

       Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't see how there isn't yet another shoe to drop on the economic, uh, forecasting, because I think a lot of the businesses that were going to fail haven't yet really completed the (laughs) failure cycle.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:46

       Right.

   12. MSMark Sisson31:46

       Because I know a lot of ... Like you do, I know a lot of people who went outta business or just struggled. And the worst p- to me, the first lockdown, and you struggle through it and you get into April or May and it looks like there's light at the end of the tunnel and, uh, and you borrowed $300,000 to keep your restaurant open, and then all of a sudden there's another lockdown, and now it's even more egregious. Now you can't even ...

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       Yeah.

   14. MSMark Sisson32:07

       Uh, uh, I, I mean, I, I feel so horrible for those people. It's cr-

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:11

       It's horrendous.

   16. MSMark Sisson32:12

       Now, but to your, to your point about the governors, so now some of the governors are r- are becoming really, really popular for their stances.

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       Like your guy.

   18. MSMark Sisson32:18

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:18

       Yeah.

   20. MSMark Sisson32:19

       Yeah, yeah. He ... That DeSantis guy. He ... Yeah. He's ... No. He's ... And he got-

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:21

       He's a young fella too.

   22. MSMark Sisson32:22

       He got vilified, you know, early on, and he just held his ground.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Yeah. Well, 'cause everybody wanted to ... They wanted to consume that fear porn-

   24. MSMark Sisson32:32

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       ... and they didn't like the fact ... And they were like, "You're gonna kill everyone." And ... But I love how he did it when he went on st- he, he did a press conference with charts and he said, "We are gonna protect our, our most vulnerable and this is how we're gonna do it. And, you know ... But we think very strongly that children should be able to go back to school. It's ... It poses little to no risk for children, especially in comparison to the flu, which actually kills kids."

   26. MSMark Sisson32:54

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       Um, "And then as you get older and older," and he had like sort of a breakdown of when it becomes an issue.

   28. MSMark Sisson33:00

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       But then he gets into your age category, it turns out it wasn't an issue for you, but it's because of the way you live your life. And this is what drives me crazy, like people want to pretend like your immune system is ineffective against this virus. Well, your immune system ... If, if that was the case, everyone who caught the virus would be dead-

   30. MSMark Sisson33:20

       Bingo.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That's why you carry…

   1. MSMark Sisson45:00

      a while, it starts to go to, uh, a plan B, which is to build the metabolic machinery to start to extract energy from stored fat cells, to burn that fat, c- to combust that fat in the muscle cells. Uh, it takes some of the fat, sends it to the liver, uh, to convert into ketones because the brain works really well on ketones. In fact, the brain works better on ketones than it does on glucose for most people. So the body has this built-in plan, this diagram, this genetic program that you're born with to be metabolically flexible and to be able to extract energy from fat, and from ketones, and from glucose. Um, and, and it would normally go that route, but we, we never give it the reason to. Now, how, how is that, um, plan, how has it evolved? Well, for most of human history, we ate and we didn't eat. It wasn't like, (laughs) you know, breakfast was the most important meal of the day, or make sure you keep, you know, uh, little Tupperware things of, uh, a little bit of protein and some carbohydrate to eat every two or three hours, or else your muscles will go into cannibal mode. No. Humans are wired to overeat, and because food was so scarce, when we did come across food, we tend to, to eat more. And certainly sweet foods like fruits was even, uh, m- more palatable. So we probably tended to eat more of that. But, but so we're wired to overeat and we have this amazing, uh, design that allows us to take excess energy and convert it into fuel that we carry around with us all the time, conveniently located above the center of gravity. So it's on the hips, on the butt, on the thighs, on the belly. So, so we tend to carry this excess body fat as a survival mechanism from a million years ago. Uh-

   2. JRJoe Rogan46:50

      That's why you carry it here?

   3. MSMark Sisson46:51

      Yeah. B- that's... Sure. That, uh, it, it... Think-

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:55

      Like a, like a fanny pack.

   5. MSMark Sisson46:56

      Yeah. It's exactly-

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:57

      (laughs)

   7. MSMark Sisson46:58

      ... what it is. It's exactly what it is. So, so but it, but again, if you look at evolution and how, and how things, you know, work, we're bipedals. We have to stand upright. So, you know, if we had, uh, fat accumulating on our upper back or whatever, we'd be, you know, tipping over. So it's conveniently located over the center of gravit- It's an elegant, (laughs) elegant design. The problem is, it was designed so that when you didn't eat food, you could take that same fuel, take it outta storage, combust it, and, and not be any the worse for wear, not think of anything other than, you know, "I'm still gonna hunt. I'm still gonna do all these things. I haven't eaten for five days. I'm not hu- hangry, I'm not pissed off at my mate. I'm just gonna keep going with a great attitude that I'm gonna find something to eat."

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:43

      Now, what is the standard amount of time? Is there a standard amount of time between... If a person eats a normal American diet and they just decide to fast, how long does it take before their body t- converts to burning fat?

   9. MSMark Sisson47:58

      If they're not going keto?

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       Right.

   11. MSMark Sisson47:59

       Yeah. Um, they're probably gonna burn... They're gonna probably use a little bit of muscle in the process because the body, if, if it isn't used to, to, uh, deriving most of its energy from fat because of a process that you've engaged in to, to use keto to, um, you know, to, to burn fat, um, it'll, it'll still seek glucose. And if you don't give it glucose and you haven't done this work, for the first couple of days, it's, it's, it's miserable. And so people talk about the low-carb flu or the, um, or, you know, if they go on a fasting thing at an ashram. You know, I saw, I saw Elvis, you know, two days ago and I-

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:35

       Elvis went to-

   13. MSMark Sisson48:36

       ... whatever, Jesus, I- Yeah, whatever.

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:38

       ... What?

   15. MSMark Sisson48:38

       I saw Elvis in my, in my dreams. You know-

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       Oh, you're saying 'cause you're going crazy.

   17. MSMark Sisson48:41

       'Cause you're going crazy.

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:42

       All right.

   19. MSMark Sisson48:42

       So your, you know, your, your, your brain is kind of frazzled because you haven't given it the opportunity to, to really thrive on ketones yet. Your, your body's making ketones, but you haven't... Again, you haven't built that metabolic machinery-

   20. JRJoe Rogan48:55

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MSMark Sisson48:55

       ... to use them efficiently and effectively. And so the brain's still looking for glucose, and as a result, what happens is the brain will send a signal to the adrenals to secrete cortisol. Cortisol then, you know, goes throughout the body and strips amino acids from muscle tissue to send them to the liver to become glucose, so you can feed the brain. So it's, it's counterproductive over time, and it's also, you know, one of the reasons why...... back in the old bodybuilding days, in the old, in the old training days in any gym, this, this mantra about, "Don't go more than three, three or four hours without eating or you'll cannibalize your muscle tissue." If you haven't become fat-adapted and keto-adapted, that does happen. You do cannibalize muscle tissue when you go long periods of time without eating.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:37

       Like say, uh, when I say Standard American diet, I don't mean junk food. But if you're a person who eats normal, eat a little bit of pasta, a little bit of bread, but you eat mostly healthy-

   23. MSMark Sisson49:45

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:46

       ... if you decide that you're going to fast, h- your m- body's gonna cannibalize some muscle.

   25. MSMark Sisson49:52

       Not so much.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:53

       Y- how much?

   27. MSMark Sisson49:54

       I, uh, few pounds-

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:56

       A few pounds?

   29. MSMark Sisson49:56

       E- e- not e- you know, few pounds, maybe.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:57

       Few pounds?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:10:15

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. MSMark Sisson1:00:00

      a couple years later, I'm like, "I think I've already hit that number with books and seminars and, and, and blog posts and stuff like that."

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MSMark Sisson1:00:07

      Um, "Let's make it 100." So I, you know, I boosted it up to 100. Um, one of the best things I did with the food company was I brought new people into understanding how the body works and how eating real food with healthy sauces and marinades and toppings and things that made that healthy food taste that much better. Um, again, I, I probably expanded the universe of people that now begin to really appreciate the effects of food on the body. Uh, but I still, I still have like a book a year in me, and I'm still doing books on, you know, on how we can achieve greatness. I don't, I don't often use that term. But how we can, you know, achieve this level of health and satisfaction and an enjoyment of life. I mean, the tagline of my company is Live Awesome. And, uh, as I said, I want everybody to... at the end of the day, all I want is you to be happy, you know? And if I can help you do that through, through my methods, and then the rest of what you do, whether it's financial or, or with your family, that's, that's up to you. But I can certainly assist on the, on the health side.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

      And when you started this book, w- was there anything surprising that you found while you were putting this book together?

   5. MSMark Sisson1:01:19

      No, this is really, um... (laughs) This is the synthesis of 30 years of doing this. And it's almost like, um, you know, this book was...... rewriting stuff that I'd already written, but in a way that's more user-friendly to the average person. So I've, I'm, I, it's, nothing in my f- framework has changed scientifically, but I'm always trying to figure out how can I say this in a way that'll appeal to the most people? So, um, I think everyone realizes they probably eat too much food, but how can I find a way to not only convince them to do it, but make it easier and make it, not just easier, but, but pleasurable in a way that, that enhances their, their lives.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

      People like those meal prep companies. It's one of the things that people like about them is that they give you a reasonable portion of food.

   7. MSMark Sisson1:02:13

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:02:13

      Especially if it's a good company, it'll, it'll be based on your body mass and what kind of activities you're involved in. Do you, uh, do you ever use one of those or do you recommend anything like that?

   9. MSMark Sisson1:02:22

      Well, no, because (laughs) now we produce, uh, meals, so-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:02:25

       Oh, you do?

   11. MSMark Sisson1:02:26

       Yeah, we, yeah, we have meals. You have-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       When did you guys start doing that?

   13. MSMark Sisson1:02:28

       Um, last year, pre- pre-COVID, and then COVID sort of shut down the distribution because it, they're frozen meals.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       Oh.

   15. MSMark Sisson1:02:34

       So they're f- they're frozen, but, you know, we have, uh, steak fajita. We have, uh, ch- you know, uh, uh, teriyaki chicken. Uh, we've got a, Asian, Asian dish. I mean, it's, uh, these are in, in bags and it's all, you know, free range and grass fed and, you know, organic. Um, but it got-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:02:52

       And do you microwave it? How do you heat it up?

   17. MSMark Sisson1:02:54

       You can microwave it, yeah. And some, the skillets you do in a, in a skillet pan. Um, so-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:03:00

       Which, how long did it take to figure out how to do that where it tastes good but still maintained all the nutrients? And it seems like that would be, that's a challenge in and of itself, right?

   19. MSMark Sisson1:03:08

       That's a huge challenge, yeah. And, and the challenge is making it to scale, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:03:11

       Right.

   21. MSMark Sisson1:03:11

       And, and doing it in large quantities.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:03:13

       How many people do you serve with these?

   23. MSMark Sisson1:03:15

       Uh, oh, just one. It's just that these are individual serving, uh, sizes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:20

       Right. I'm sorry. I meant how many people do you distribute these to?

   25. MSMark Sisson1:03:25

       Um, well, they're, they're available in stores throughout the country that carry us.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:03:29

       Oh.

   27. MSMark Sisson1:03:29

       Yeah, yeah. So, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:03:31

       So it's not like y- y- you're not, it's on like a website where somebody orders it?

   29. MSMark Sisson1:03:34

       No, no, no. You can't. It's because it's frozen, it's too, um, logistically complicated to do individual shipments.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:03:41

       Ah, I see.

Episode duration: 2:52:05