Joe Rogan Experience #1630 - Dan Crenshaw

1. 0:00 – 1:45

   Spaceship studio jokes and the “Elon is an alien” bit

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

   2. DCDan Crenshaw0:15

      I have a theory on this place.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      This place, Austin? Go ahead. T-

   4. DCDan Crenshaw0:18

      No, your studio.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Oh, what's the theory? Tell me the theory.

   6. DCDan Crenshaw0:22

      Well, it looks like a spaceship.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Yes. So here's my theory.

   8. DCDan Crenshaw0:26

      Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      'Cause you had this grand master plan to get Elon Musk to admit that he's an alien.

   10. DCDan Crenshaw0:31

       He's definitely an alien. But that's not correct. This was already... This already existed. This was, uh, this-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Oh, really? You bought it as is?

   12. DCDan Crenshaw0:37

       Yeah. Well, (coughs) it's a long story and I can't get into too m- many details, but this was a conference room and so we converted this c- the conference r- conference room was already circular. We converted it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       But you put this weird alien stuff on it.

   14. DCDan Crenshaw0:51

       Yeah, this stuff we put on. These are just, uh, sound deadening panels.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       So that wasn't an attempt to get Elon to admit that he's an alien.

   16. DCDan Crenshaw0:57

       No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Because... Okay, so here's how I thought you were doing this.

   18. DCDan Crenshaw1:00

       Okay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       You've conditioned him over time, right? You, you, you bring him into the studio, you're drinking with him, you got him really high. Let's say-

   20. DCDan Crenshaw1:07

       I didn't get him really high. He barely got... I don't even think he inhaled.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Oh.

   22. DCDan Crenshaw1:11

       Did he inhale?

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Wow. All right. Well, the rest of America thinks differently.

   24. DCDan Crenshaw1:14

       He took a little puff. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       (laughs)

   26. DCDan Crenshaw1:15

       He's just naturally high.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Well- Pot probably doesn't work on aliens.

   28. DCDan Crenshaw1:18

       But you get him, you get him comfortable, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Right.

   30. DCDan Crenshaw1:21

       And then you put him in a situation that looks like his home base-
2. 1:45 – 8:43

   Simulation theory debate: inevitability, tech acceleration, and “indistinguishable reality”

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:45

      He believes in the simulation theory.

   2. DCDan Crenshaw1:48

      Really?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:48

      Yeah. See, see, see-

   4. DCDan Crenshaw1:49

      I don't believe in the simulation theory.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:50

      Well-

   6. DCDan Crenshaw1:51

      It doesn't explain anything because who's, who's running them? If they're running us, who's running them? It doesn't, it doesn't explain existence.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:57

      You don't understand the simulation theory.

   8. DCDan Crenshaw1:58

      Maybe not.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      That's... It's not that someone's run... It's a, it, it becomes the universe itself. The i- the idea is that-

   10. DCDan Crenshaw2:05

       But somebody created it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:06

       Yes. But-

   12. DCDan Crenshaw2:07

       But who created them?

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Okay, us. Listen, if we are... If we exist, right?

   14. DCDan Crenshaw2:11

       Okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       We, we do exist. We agree to that?

   16. DCDan Crenshaw2:13

       Yes.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Right. And we agree that we have fantastic technology that's indistinguishable from magic if you brought it to three, 400 years ago, right?

   18. DCDan Crenshaw2:21

       Okay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       What we experience now is nothing in comparison, especially as, you know, the laws of technology and they expand at an exponential rate. If you look at what we can do now and look at what we're gonna be capable of 100 years from now or 1,000 years from now, it's gonna be impossible to distinguish between reality and simulated reality. They will, they will develop an alternative virtual reality that's impossible to distinguish from. So the question is, how do you know if that hasn't already taken place?

   20. DCDan Crenshaw2:54

       Th-

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:54

       And maybe that's how the universe works. Maybe the idea of things being concrete and physical that you can touch and things that you can weigh-

   22. DCDan Crenshaw3:02

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:02

       ... is just the experience that we've currently been accustomed to. Maybe that's not the whole way the universe works.

   24. DCDan Crenshaw3:09

       Yeah, I had this conversation with Scott Adams. He was on my podcast and I was kinda... I had to think about it later and, um, it still, it still fails to explain existence for me. Because i- if we're the ones who created it, then still somebody like us in a future state still created us or created the reality that we're in.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       Yes.

   26. DCDan Crenshaw3:29

       And I get that there's this kind of circular reasoning associated with it, but it still fails to explain some basic truths.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:35

       But it doesn't. It doesn't because here's the pro- the thing. Like, you have single celled organisms, they, they turn into multi-celled organisms as they evolve and then eventually you get something that's sentient and also can alter its environment. That's human beings. That thing starts creating these virtual worlds and these virtual worlds are run by artificial intelligence-

   28. DCDan Crenshaw3:55

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:55

       ... that becomes sentient as well. So that artificial intelligence continues to create newer and better virtual worlds and then it's a self-sustaining system. And this self-sustaining system becomes a new version of reality. If you think about the, the-

   30. DCDan Crenshaw4:12

       Yeah.
3. 8:43 – 11:18

   Cosmology and probability: black holes, multiverses, and Bostrom’s argument

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:43

      Like if, if it fully forms out, like look, what if someone in a lab, what if some scientist figured out a way to literally create another universe?

   2. DCDan Crenshaw8:52

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:52

      Like there's a, there's a theory about black holes. You know, uh, anything about super massive black holes?

   4. DCDan Crenshaw8:57

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:58

      Inside of every galaxy is a super massive black hole, in the center of every galaxy, that's one half of 1% of the mass of the entire galaxy. The bigger the galaxy, the bigger the black hole.

   6. DCDan Crenshaw9:08

      Okay.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:09

      There's a theory that I don't totally understand, but I'm gonna repeat it like as if I do-

   8. DCDan Crenshaw9:14

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:14

      ... that inside that galaxy, if you go through that black hole, there is another universe inside, another-

   10. DCDan Crenshaw9:20

       Okay.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       ... universe filled with hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with black holes in the center of them. You go through each one of those black holes, there's a new universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies. So the universe being infinite, it's, it's, it's too big for dumb people like you and I, not, I should say I and you. I'll just call me dumb first.

   12. DCDan Crenshaw9:40

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:40

       But th- that's the only time it's more polite to call yourself dumb.

   14. DCDan Crenshaw9:42

       I minored in physics, Joe, so I know what I'm talking about.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:45

       Did you?

   16. DCDan Crenshaw9:45

       I took five classes.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       Okay. Well, I talked to a lot of smart people-

   18. DCDan Crenshaw9:48

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:48

       ... and I remembered some of the shit they said.

   20. DCDan Crenshaw9:49

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:49

       Like, I don't know what I'm talking about.

   22. DCDan Crenshaw9:51

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:51

       Not gonna, I could pull it off. But the idea is that there is an infinite number of universes-

   24. DCDan Crenshaw9:57

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:57

       ... and an infinite number of planets, an infinite number of possibilities in terms of intelligent life forms creating things. And was it Nick Bostrom? Was that the guy who was on? He tried to explain it to me. He was, he was saying that through probability theory, it is more probable that we are in a simulation than not.

   26. DCDan Crenshaw10:16

       Hmm. That's, that's a stretch.

   27. GFGuest’s friend/companion10:19

       Uh, the, the, the, just this weekend I saw Neil deGrasse Tyson posted a video on his Insta. I'm trying to pull it up right now. It might have been on Twitter.

   28. DCDan Crenshaw10:25

       I thought you'd be more entertained by my theory about you-

   29. GFGuest’s friend/companion10:27

       Where he was-

   30. DCDan Crenshaw10:27

       ... trying to trick Elon into con- again (laughs) admitting he was an alien.
4. 11:18 – 15:06

   Physics detour: quantum mechanics, entanglement, encryption—and “psychic” misuse

   1. DCDan Crenshaw11:18

      I mean, that's the entire point of a theoretical physicist. They got too good at math, they got bored, they got bored proving theorems over and over again.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:24

      Well, he's an astrophysicist.

   3. DCDan Crenshaw11:26

      Yeah, well, which, which require-

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:28

      I think that's-

   5. DCDan Crenshaw11:28

      ... which requires some theoretical physics in it as well. I mean, it's fascinating stuff, it's beyond my scope-

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:33

      Right.

   7. DCDan Crenshaw11:33

      ... to say the least. So the, the, the most advanced physics class I ever took was quantum mechanics. And it just becomes math, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:39

      Yeah.

   9. DCDan Crenshaw11:39

      And, and I was not an engineering major, I was an international relations major doing a minor in physics, which is an odd thing to do. All right? I, but I liked it. I, I, 'cause I love science, I love math, I was good at it, so I wanted to keep pushing that side of my brain, 'cause you're working two different muscles in your brain-

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       Right.

   11. DCDan Crenshaw11:54

       ... when you're doing liberal arts on one side and science on the other. So I loved doing it, but when you get to trying to, um, (sighs) explain to somebody why you don't know where a particle is at any given moment, it's only you know the probability of it, this becomes confusing and the math behind it is even more confusing. And I was, you know, I'm glad I didn't advance much further than that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:17

       Yeah, when you get into particles and superpositions, you're like, w- wait, what the fuck are you talking about? It's both moving and not moving, it's here and not here-

   13. DCDan Crenshaw12:26

       We don't-

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       ... it's in two places simultaneously. And if you view it, if you're observing it, it changes the way the particle behaves, like-

   15. DCDan Crenshaw12:33

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       ... what?

   17. DCDan Crenshaw12:34

       And we're not sure how. It, nobody really understands it, that's why it's, it's fascinating.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:38

       And I've also heard people-

   19. DCDan Crenshaw12:39

       It's spooky.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:39

       Yeah, I've also heard explained that the reason why it changes is 'cause there's a method that you're using, you're interacting with it when you're observing it, and that's what's changing it. It's not that it's actually-

   21. DCDan Crenshaw12:49

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:49

       ... changing because you're, you're observing it, it's because you're interacting with it while you're observing it. So I'm like, well, okay.

   23. DCDan Crenshaw12:55

       It implies that there's some-

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:56

       ... magic.

   25. DCDan Crenshaw12:57

       ... unseen connection between us and the object, and between objects themselves. I mean, quantum entanglement is when you can entangle these two particles and they will copy each other, even from lengthy distances.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:08

       Yes.

   27. DCDan Crenshaw13:08

       This, this, this is how you do quantum computing, or, or quantum, um, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Not, uh... Well, uh, well, part of computing, but basically, um, security with quantum computers. Uh, thi- this is sort of that theory being applied to that.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       Yeah. It's-

   29. DCDan Crenshaw13:28

       Meaning, meaning, like, it's like a peer-to-peer encrypt- encryption, quantum encryption.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       It allows-
5. 15:06 – 16:38

   Meaning, VR futures, and the trade-offs of virtual life

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      No, maybe. Look, look, I'm not married to the, the th- the simulation theory. In, in fact, um, I think it's more likely, and this is gonna get real strange. I think it's more, more likely that it's, it's an inevitable possibility rather than it's, it's a reality. I think it's an inevitable possibility. I think if we don't blow ourselves up, there's gonna come a point in time where... Did you ever see, uh, Ready Player One?

   2. DCDan Crenshaw15:28

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:28

      Great movie, right?

   4. DCDan Crenshaw15:29

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was pretty good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:30

      Fun, fun movie. I think that's gonna happen. I don't think that's far away.

   6. DCDan Crenshaw15:33

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      That's probably 50 years in the future where you, you're gonna be able to put on a haptic feedback suit and some sort of-

   8. DCDan Crenshaw15:39

      Sure.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:39

      ... VR goggles.

   10. DCDan Crenshaw15:39

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:39

       And you're gonna enter into some incredibly advanced artificial reality, virtual reality that's amazing.

   12. DCDan Crenshaw15:47

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:47

       That's more interesting than-

   14. DCDan Crenshaw15:49

       Th- that seems likely.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:50

       Yeah.

   16. DCDan Crenshaw15:50

       That seems likely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:51

       Yeah.

   18. DCDan Crenshaw15:52

       And, and then it's gonna be a new, a new trick of, well, how do we prevent people from... I don't know if we can prevent people. Or h- how do we deal with this, with this obvious problem where the rate, the virtual reality becomes the preferred lifestyle, which is, it already is for a lot of people-

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Right.

   20. DCDan Crenshaw16:06

       ... playing the, um, playing video games or-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Call of Duty.

   22. DCDan Crenshaw16:08

       ... on social media-

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       Yeah.

   24. DCDan Crenshaw16:09

       ... or whatever it is. And, um, you know, is, is this, is this a good thing? (laughs) It does- it doesn't seem to me that it, that it is.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       My, my position is that it's a thing.

   26. DCDan Crenshaw16:20

       It's a thing.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. I don't th- I don't know if anything is a g- I don't know if agriculture's a good thing.

   28. DCDan Crenshaw16:26

       Everything's a trade-off.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Yeah. I mean, it seems like, you know, the people that wanna, like, go back to the hunter-gatherer days, like, "You know, we, we're better off, we're hunting and gathering. Oh yeah, without all that books and medicine and all that confusing shit." Like, what are you talking about?

   30. DCDan Crenshaw16:38

       Right.

6. 16:38 – 21:06

   COVID politics: partisan risk assessment and public-health messaging failures

   1. JRJoe Rogan16:38

      No, we're better off right now. Like, right now is the best time to be alive. Even though we just got through a fucking horrible year, that year exposed a lot of weird shit about our civilization.

   2. DCDan Crenshaw16:48

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan16:48

      It's, it, it exposed a lot of weird shit about a bunch of really freaked out people that are just paranoid and, and schizophrenic, and how many people that are just fragile. There's so many fragile people in our culture.

   4. DCDan Crenshaw17:03

      I was blown away by the politics of it. I'm a politician, so this is what I analyze. And I was blown away that the, the conversation about how to deal with the last year became, or, or it, it... The division, the division fell upon partisan lines, right? About whether to lock down or not to lock down, about whether people liked masks or, or didn't like masks. And at first, that seems really odd, and so I, I spent a lot of time analyzing this, 'cause it shouldn't be that way. It, it should, it, it should be mixed. You would-

   5. JRJoe Rogan17:34

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DCDan Crenshaw17:34

      You would think about...

   7. JRJoe Rogan17:35

      Yes.

   8. DCDan Crenshaw17:36

      Just 'cause it, what you're really talking about is somebody's risk assessment and, you know, how they perceive risk and how they wanna deal with that, and how they think everybody else should deal with that. And, um, it's strange. I think there's a lot of factors involved. I, I do think that there was some political opportunism. I think that if Trump says something, people reactively say the opposite.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:55

      That's a problem, right?

   10. DCDan Crenshaw17:56

       And then that's definitely part of it. However, um, after Trump lost the election, he, it, the, that didn't stop. That, that movement aga- you know, for pro-lockdown movement never stopped. So it didn't, it was not clear to me then that that was the only reason.

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       But it's, but it is. See, the problem is once people get committed to an ideology or committed to a narrative-

   12. DCDan Crenshaw18:15

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:15

       ... just because Trump lost and now Biden's in power, it's not like everybody just abandons this narrative and-

   14. DCDan Crenshaw18:21

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan18:21

       ... s- and creates a new reality based on objective truth.

   16. DCDan Crenshaw18:24

       But they'll never even do a, do a, an after-action report on it to the point to where it's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       What happened in June?

   18. DCDan Crenshaw18:29

       ... to where it's ridiculous.

   19. JRJoe Rogan18:30

       Oh, I thought you were showing us something.

   20. DCDan Crenshaw18:32

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       (laughs)

   22. DCDan Crenshaw18:32

       And, and so, so I, I, I put another, uh, I put another, a few factors in there. I, I think some of it is the fact that, uh, Democrats tend to congregate in urban areas, and it might be s- you know, the, the virus is more in your face in an urban area than in a rural area. That might be some explanation there.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:45

       For sure, right?

   24. DCDan Crenshaw18:46

       But it, but it really boils down to, and there's, there's studies on this, where our, our brains light up differently, uh, when assessing risk. Now, it doesn't mean that the behavioral outcomes of these studies are, change. Basically, they would, they would take liberals and conservatives and they would give them a betti- what, what amounts to a betting game and see how they react differently. Now, that, now, the actual behavioral outcomes, what they choose wasn't-... di- didn't change all that much. But when they're doing the MRI scans, they see that their brains light up differently. So, that's interesting. So, we clearly assess risk differently somehow. Uh, so I'd looked at data on, uh, the kind of jobs that we choose, and it turns out, and this is intuitive, you would guess this, that the vast majority of conservative ... Or vast majority of dangerous jobs are, are mostly populated by conservatives; lumberjacking, uh, hard labor, uh, military, law enforcement. So there's, there ... It's obvious that we're choosing to engage in risk differently, just overall-

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       Yeah.

   26. DCDan Crenshaw19:42

       ... in the aggregate. And so, I think that gets at why we think differently about this. I think we're truly wired differently and, uh, a- add on top of that, the, the natural disposition of a liberal to believe in some sort of collective action, whereas the natural disposition of a conservative is to believe that government can only do so much. Right? There, there's life out there and it's, sometimes it's dangerous, and it's up to you as an individual to generally assess that. And that's also the most efficient way to do things, in order to get the best outcomes in the aggregate. So these are two dispositions that are always present and they, and they manifest in policy outcomes all the time. And in this case, it's pretty obvious how they manifested into the, into the way we dealt with coronavirus. Um, and, and I think that kind of explains it 'cause, you know ... And, and think about it this way too, the ... When a, when a more left-leaning public health official talks about it, they always give you the worst case scenario, "Well, it's possible that if you're 15, you could die." Well, yeah, it's possible, but it's also far more unlikely than even if you got the flu. They don't ... They say they leave out that part. They leave out the context. They leave out the probabilities. This is why I've been so frustrated with our public health officials.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       Yeah.

   28. DCDan Crenshaw20:48

       Give us the whole truth.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:49

       Right.

   30. DCDan Crenshaw20:50

       Don't just give us the most dangerous truth. Don't, don't tell us the tail end of the probability, uh, scale. Like, that's, that's not useful information to us. Very ... It's been very frustrating to watch how we've dealt with this over the last year, around the world, not just in America. Frankly, we've had it better than a lot of countries.

7. 21:06 – 25:04

   Gang mentality, social media bullying, and why discourse collapses

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:06

      I, I think people tend to try to find a group that they can attach themselves to, and Chris Rock has a great bit about this. Chri- ... You know what? You can find ... Uh, Mick Maynard, who is, uh, one of the, uh, matchmakers for the UFC, posted this on his Instagram. Um, go to, um, Mick ... You got it? Yeah. Okay. So, Mick Maynard posted this from the great and powerful Chris Rock, and this is, uh ... We can watch this 'cause it's on his Instagram and if ... Chris will holler at me if it's, it's an issue, but I fucking love Chris Rock and this is one of the, the best points. It might not be one of his best bits, but it's one of his best points ever 'cause he's so ... It's so accurate because he's talking about-

   2. NANarrator21:50

      ... mentality, man. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are fucking idiots and Democrats are fucking idiots and conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots. And any- anyone that makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a fucking fool, okay?

   3. NANarrator22:08

      (cheers)

   4. NANarrator22:13

      Everybody ... Now, now, hold on. Everybody's so busy wantin' to be down with a gang. "I'm a conservative," "I'm a liberal," "I'm a conservative." It's bullshit! Be a fucking person! Listen! Let it swirl around your head, then form your opinion. No normal, decent person is one thing, okay? I got some shit I'm conservative about, I got some shit I'm liberal about. Crime? I'm conservative. Prostitution? I'm liberal.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:44

      (laughs)

   6. NANarrator22:45

      (cheers)

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:45

      A- and it goes on, but that's where the clip ends.

   8. DCDan Crenshaw22:48

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:48

      But that's so accurate, is that wha- what a lot of people are afraid of is being alone. They're afraid of being attacked. And one of the things about today's culture, particularly with, uh, social media, is that it's an attack culture, it's a bully culture. And a lot of these people that are doing the attacking and they're doing the bullying, they've been bullied in the real world, so they want payback, so they're trying to bully people online.

   10. DCDan Crenshaw23:10

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:10

       And that's what you see. There's a lot of, like, low-status males, a lot of, like, really weak people who have n- never really overcome physical adversity or they're not successful, but they found a way online to gather up a group of people that resonate with some of their opinions and they can attack people. And they do it all day long. You know? There's, there's a-

   12. DCDan Crenshaw23:33

       I, I find that to be the most (laughs) -

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:34

       It's fascinating.

   14. DCDan Crenshaw23:35

       ... the most probable ... If, if somebody's, uh, saying something ex- extremely crude and awful to me online, it's, it's probably a, a younger man-

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:44

       It doesn't have-

   16. DCDan Crenshaw23:44

       ... uh, who's unhappy.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:44

       ... necessarily.

   18. DCDan Crenshaw23:45

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:45

       Sometimes it's older men who have failed their life and they've just-

   20. DCDan Crenshaw23:49

       Same. Same, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:49

       ... they've decided that this is their stand, this is their line in the sand they're gonna draw.

   22. DCDan Crenshaw23:53

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:53

       Whether now they're gonna be anti-racist or they're gonna be, you know, uh, anti-homophobic or anti-transphobic, or whatever it is, and they're gonna attack all these people-

   24. DCDan Crenshaw24:02

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan24:02

       ... whether, or, or anti- ... You know, there's so many different ideological pathways that you could choose, that you could get a group of people that agree with you and then you fight against anyone that opposes these ideas, and you do it in a really, uh, aggressive and nasty way, which is something that we should push back against, period. Like, uh, ideas should be something that you should be able to discuss and, and debate and analyze. You should be able to sit down and go, "Why do you believe in the simulation theory?" You know? And, and w- we shouldn't be like, "Well, you're a fucking idiot, Joe Rogan, that's why you agree."

   26. DCDan Crenshaw24:38

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan24:38

       It should be like, "B- b- b- b- b- yeah, I'm a fucking idiot. Yeah."

   28. DCDan Crenshaw24:41

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:41

       "But that's not why I agree with this."

   30. DCDan Crenshaw24:43

       (laughs)
8. 25:04 – 29:39

   Right-wing paranoia, “RINOs,” and redefining political ‘fighting’ as persuasion

   1. DCDan Crenshaw25:04

      So, yeah, unless your gang or team... I, I always say that you're either wearing a blue jersey or a red jersey, and then you act accordingly.

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:09

      Yeah.

   3. DCDan Crenshaw25:10

      And you repeat these sort of mantras that you think you're supposed to repeat in order to, to gain favor within that group, make them, make sure they know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DCDan Crenshaw25:17

      ... you're part of the loyalists there.

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:19

      Yep.

   7. DCDan Crenshaw25:19

      And if, and if you don't say the things, then, then, then that group gets distrustful of you. We have... But this is a problem we have on the right, right? So I think the left is power hungry, I think the right is paranoid, and we tend to look for, for betrayers in our, in our midst, right? We look for the-

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:31

      Wait a minute, who's paranoid and who's power hungry? Which one?

   9. DCDan Crenshaw25:33

      The right, the right is more paranoid.

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:35

       Can you switch it back and forth, though? Left is paranoid sometimes, too.

   11. DCDan Crenshaw25:38

       Sure, sure. Look, look, everybody's on a spectrum, right? Uh, uh, so, so... And I, and I should say that in the beginning, right? I'm talking... I'm analyzing in the aggregate, the coronavirus, wh- why, why, why people fell on partisan lines on that. But I mean, look, I recognize that not all liberals are risk-averse to this extraordinary degree. I recognize that. We're all on a spectrum, um, and from, from the left to the right. But, but in the, in the aggregate, this is sort of what we see. And then in politics, as you're talking about, we, we put on these jerseys. And so I'm just talking in generalities, okay?

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:07

       Right, okay.

   13. DCDan Crenshaw26:07

       Of course, the left can be ultra paranoid. Um, and of course, the right in, in, in its extreme form can, can, can exhibit more power-hungry tendencies. But it, but it tends not to be. And if we, and if we look at the policies actually being implemented, that, that tends not to be the case. But what I see on my side, because I'm always dealing with my side, we, we tend to be looking... In- instead of, instead of thinking how to persu- this is the problem I have and I'm trying to change, the... Not that I have, I mean, that I think we have. I... We talk about fighting all the time, and I say, "Look, we have to define fighting as persuasion." Persuasion is, is the name of the game in politics. Look, I can, I can go charge a hill as a SEAL, and that's fighting, right? I mean, and it looks cool, but I'm gonna die. Okay? But what, what I really should do is communicate, uh, maneuver, and, and kill the enemy that, enemy that way. In politics, the, the fight must be persuasion. And it, and it... Too often, we, we get more concerned with, you know, saying the things, saying the slogans, saying the things that make us feel good, that make us... That, that, that, that help us recognize one another as part of the same team, wearing the same jersey. I think that's what he's getting at it. If somebody veers from that, well, they're a traitor, uh, they're not one of you, and then they're automatically wrong. And he's... And in- instead of saying, "Ah, I knew you were gonna say that, let me, let me tell you why it's wrong, let me explain it to you, let's have a debate about it," we get really mad, and we go online, and we call names because we haven't actually done the background work to at least understand why we think what we think. And when you understand why you think what you think, that's how you can persuade people. That's, that's the name of the game. And the reason I say we're paranoid is because... and, and, and I always... you know, we're always looking for RINOs on our side, right? Republicans In Name Only. I've never used that word against anybody. Even, even if I think that it was-

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:56

       Wait, w- w- e- explain that. What does that mean?

   15. DCDan Crenshaw27:59

       It's a, it's a commonly used term in conservative politics.

   16. JRJoe Rogan28:03

       Really?

   17. DCDan Crenshaw28:03

       The RINOs. Oh yeah, Mitt Romney's a RINO, Susan Collins is a RINO, like basically every-

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:07

       Wait a minute, Mitt Romney's a RINO? He's not conservative?

   19. DCDan Crenshaw28:10

       He's not conservative because, because he turned on Trump. Okay? So...

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:13

       Oh, that's hilarious.

   21. DCDan Crenshaw28:14

       And so, so I, I, I don't...

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:16

       (laughs)

   23. DCDan Crenshaw28:16

       And, and you... and I can disagree with him for doing that, but, you know, I, I... but the name-calling frustrates me because it's, it's, it's a way to s- it's a way to bypass debate. Name-calling is always a way to bypass debate.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:28

       Right, of course.

   25. DCDan Crenshaw28:29

       That's always the use of it. It's, it's never... it never has good intentions behind it. And so whether you're calling somebody a RINO or an establishment or a sellout, this is not useful, this is not useful. Even if you think it's true, then, then explain why it's true on that particular issue. And what tends to happen, and this happens certainly on both sides, is, is that sort of Puritan thinking drives out that more moderate member of the party-

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:53

       Got one of those.

   27. DCDan Crenshaw28:54

       Okay. Yeah. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan28:55

       Cheers.

   29. DCDan Crenshaw28:55

       Cheers. My wife has-

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:57

       Salud.
9. 29:39 – 56:04

   Healthcare: shared goals, Medicare-for-All trade-offs, and Crenshaw’s alternative model

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:39

      Well, uh, let's go to healthcare.

   2. DCDan Crenshaw29:41

      Okay.

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:42

      Like, wouldn't it be nice if everybody had healthcare?

   4. DCDan Crenshaw29:45

      Yes. The left is right about that.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:46

      Right.

   6. DCDan Crenshaw29:47

      Th- th- th- this... So... And this gets to another point I think you were kind of making earlier, which is there's good ideas on both sides.

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:53

      Yeah.

   8. DCDan Crenshaw29:53

      I do think we have to listen to what the left wants sometimes, not all the time, it depends. But on healthcare, are they wrong to say everybody should have access to good healthcare? Is that a wrong statement to make?

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:03

      No.

   10. DCDan Crenshaw30:03

       No, of course not.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:04

       I mean, I think, I think of us as a community, I think of the United States as a community, and I think if there's someone in the community that is, uh, that's hurting co- because of bad circumstance or bad fortune-

   12. DCDan Crenshaw30:16

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:16

       ... we should be able to take care of them.

   14. DCDan Crenshaw30:18

       But the same-

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:19

       The same way we're able to keep the power grid up, the same way we're able to fix the bridges, we should be able to provide healthcare to the-

   16. DCDan Crenshaw30:25

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       ... members of our community.

   18. DCDan Crenshaw30:27

       So the question is, how do we get there?

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:28

       But here's where I get, here's where I get conservative. I think we should also make people personally responsible for their own health.

   20. DCDan Crenshaw30:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       I think you should step up and say, "Hey, y- I, I want you to have healthcare based on your current circumstances, but I also want you to do the work to get your health better." And that's where I think we need to make a division.

   22. DCDan Crenshaw30:46

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       And I'm n- I'm, I'm as left as I am right, because I'm s- I'm left on so many things, but I'm right on so many things, too. Like Chris Rock said, "I'm, I'm pretty fucking conservative on crime."You know, I get- I get angry-

   24. DCDan Crenshaw30:59

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       ... when- when I- I- I see lax crime or- or- or lax, uh, law enforcement. When I- when I see, like, people not supporting law enforcement or not understanding the nature of crime or not understanding what happens when criminals realize that there is no law enforcement.

   26. DCDan Crenshaw31:16

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       Like, Jesus Christ, like-

   28. DCDan Crenshaw31:17

       Incentives matter.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:18

       It matters a lot.

   30. DCDan Crenshaw31:19

       And- and I think that's the, what you're getting at, and-
10. 56:04 – 1:04:13

    Fortitude and resilience: ‘do hard things,’ suffering, and the dangers of victimhood/populism

    1. DCDan Crenshaw56:04

       It's like, um... I mean, you should do things that are hard. They, they help you build capacity. And, and, and ever-

    2. JRJoe Rogan56:10

       You should do things that are hard. Yes.

    3. DCDan Crenshaw56:11

       It's like chapter eight of my book, Fortitude: American Resilience in the Era of Outrage. I'm not, like, plugging it or anything.

    4. JRJoe Rogan56:15

       You just did.

    5. DCDan Crenshaw56:15

       I'm just saying...

    6. JRJoe Rogan56:15

       It's okay.

    7. DCDan Crenshaw56:16

       Yeah. (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan56:17

       People plug things. It's okay.

    9. DCDan Crenshaw56:19

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan56:19

        But you're right. You should do things that are hard. That should be a quote. Should be a picture of your face and it says, "You should do things that are hard."

    11. DCDan Crenshaw56:25

        And, and you-

    12. JRJoe Rogan56:25

        It's true.

    13. DCDan Crenshaw56:26

        ... do it all the time.

    14. JRJoe Rogan56:26

        Yeah.

    15. DCDan Crenshaw56:27

        I mean, you, you, you know, you, you might choose... I mean, you probably do a lot of hard things. You're an extremely productive individual, which means, by definition, you're doing something that is challenging in order to reach the, kinda the next, the next horizon, if you will.

    16. JRJoe Rogan56:38

        That's all I do. I don't like to do things that are easy. I don't like things that are easy. I don't do a fucking single... Other than, like, love my family-

    17. DCDan Crenshaw56:46

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan56:46

        ... there's not a thing that I do that's easy.

    19. DCDan Crenshaw56:48

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan56:49

        Everything else I do is, is hard. And the only reason why the things that I do that are... which are easy, are easy, is 'cause I put in the work to make them easy.

    21. DCDan Crenshaw56:57

        Right. Right.

    22. JRJoe Rogan56:57

        Whether it's stand-up comedy or martial arts or anything-

    23. DCDan Crenshaw57:00

        That's a good way to put it.

    24. JRJoe Rogan57:01

        That's all it is. The reason why they're fairly easy... Like, if I roll with a white belt, it's fairly easy. Why is it fairly easy? Because I've been doing jujitsu for 30 fucking years.

    25. DCDan Crenshaw57:10

        Right, right.

    26. JRJoe Rogan57:10

        That's why it's easy.

    27. DCDan Crenshaw57:11

        Right.

    28. JRJoe Rogan57:11

        It's not... Not really 30 years, but 25 or whatever it is.

    29. DCDan Crenshaw57:14

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan57:14

        But it's that, that's, it's, it's-
11. 1:04:13 – 1:09:08

    Stimulus checks and incentives: direct cash payments vs targeted unemployment support

    1. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:13

       That's n- nobody would disagree with that. We, we need a safety net. We need to help people who have truly fallen on hard times, who've lost their jobs because of COVID. But does that also mean we need to provide a $1,400 check to somebody who never lost their job and whose biggest hardship has been Zoom meetings? Of course not. But over 100 million people were getting checks that never lost their jobs.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:31

       100 million?

    3. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:32

       Easily. It's, it's-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:33

       Through COVID? Did-

    5. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:33

       It's way more. It's way more than that. I, I'm, I'm cutting it off at 100 million so I don't get fact checked.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:37

       Hold on. Explain that to me.

    7. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:38

       W- when we, when we send out checks, the direct cash payments, I've always been against direct cash payments.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:43

       So, uh, these, the COVID stimulus checks?

    9. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:46

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:04:47

        So-

    11. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:47

        'Cause they go out to anybody who makes-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:04:49

        ... people got those checks that didn't lose their jobs?

    13. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:51

        Of course.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:04:52

        What?

    15. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:53

        Yeah, if you, the, the, the cutoff was like 75K a year, so that means-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:04:56

        Wait a minute, wait a minute.

    17. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:56

        That means every federal r- well, not everybody-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:58

        So people that didn't lose-

    19. DCDan Crenshaw1:04:58

        ... a lot of federal workers getting them too.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

        ... any money because of the pandemic still got checks?

    21. DCDan Crenshaw1:05:03

        Yeah, these were never, these were never based on your situation.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:08

        What?

    23. DCDan Crenshaw1:05:09

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:10

        Really?

    25. DCDan Crenshaw1:05:10

        It's ridiculous.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:11

        I didn't know that.

    27. DCDan Crenshaw1:05:12

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:12

        I thought you had to lose your job.

    29. DCDan Crenshaw1:05:14

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:05:14

        I thought there was a problem.

Episode duration: 2:54:21