EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,139 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- JRJosh Rogin
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)
- JRJosh Rogin
We could talk watches.
- JRJoe Rogan
We could talk anything.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know I have a, a, a, a Instagram influencer watch account.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you really?
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, it's got like 22,000 followers.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's it called?
- JRJosh Rogin
It's called Watch the Ramen. It's where I combine my love of watches and my love of Japanese ramen into one Instagram account.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
It's never been done before. Okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's an interesting combination. That's so-
- JRJosh Rogin
And what I do is I take pictures of my watches and I review the watches and the ramen together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
And I pair them, I mean, to some extent it's kind of a talking to-
- JRJoe Rogan
There you are.
- JRJosh Rogin
Boom.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at that. Oh, that's hilarious. You get the fucking watch and the spoon.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's a Pogue. That's the, that's the Seiko version of your Moonwatch.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a beautiful watch.
- JRJosh Rogin
... the story is, I don't know if you're ... Are you running ... Are you taping this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
This is good shit. Okay, the story is that Admiral Pogue, on his moon mission, was supposed to take the first chronograph into space and the Omega people had a branding agreement with NASA, so they gave him an Omega Moonwatch. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
And then he didn't like it. He wa- he trusted his old, uh, Seiko. That's what he trusted. So he took this watch in his pocket, which was his, and this is not the same exact watch obviously, it's a, a re- a, a version of, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Recreation.
- JRJosh Rogin
... recreation of it. And, uh, he took off his Omega once he got in, into space, and he put on his p- his Seiko chrono- uh, chronograph, and which was then forever called a Pogue. So this was actually the first chronograph worn in space. Not the Omega one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Th- what a weird…
- JRJosh Rogin
like young journalists these days get thrown onto the heap, right? There's no training. Like, maybe you went to, like, if you went to journalism school, that's a great leg up. I didn't do that, you know what I mean? So usually, you have to be, like, the most aggressive or the most clever and some... Where you join a team. And if you join a team, you get the welfare of that political team that can promote you through your career. But I didn't have any of that. But I had something that these people didn't have, which was I was trained by these top, top, top Japanese journalists who taught me the things that they never teach, which are, like, how to source, how to dig. You know, how to pore through documents, how to use data, how to understand budgets, how to understand how these agencies work on the inside. And that takes years and years and years to learn. That's the, the work of covering the government that, you know, a lot of people still do, but not as much as they used to. And I used those skills to break stories. So, I became a scoop master and I started breaking stories and the more I broke stories, the more, better jobs I got. I went to Federal Computer Week Magazine, Congressional Quarterly, Foreign Policy Magazine, w- that covered the State Department. Then I covered, uh, oh yeah, Daily Beast, then Bloomberg View and now The Washington Post, and I also have a side gig at CNN. I'm a, a part-time contributor there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Th- what a weird way to launch your career. That's pretty-
- JRJosh Rogin
I fell ass-backwards into journalism, so...
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
My quest to eat more ramen. That's, that's the sad truth of the matter.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when did you get out of Japan? Like, how long were you there for?
- JRJosh Rogin
I was there for a year. I worked for the Japanese n- newspaper in DC, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay. So, you worked for 'em through America?
- JRJosh Rogin
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
I worked in their Washington bureau.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- JRJosh Rogin
Like, they've got a bunch of Japanese journalists who don't speak English and they need some American kids to, like, run around and interview people to help, you know... We were like a team. I was more of a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you consider learning the language in terms of, like, how to write and read?
- JRJosh Rogin
I tried. I just, I wa- I'm not a good student. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
As my transcripts will bear out, all right? I was, like, I, I think I was, like, eight when I was like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I don't want any, I don't want someone at the front of the room telling me what's what." You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
I just wanna... I wanna figure it out for myself. And, you know, so that led to, like, a few bad life choices in terms of, like, studying for exams when I was actually probably at the Improv, you know, not sober. And then, you know, basically, my... your option's limited. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
Um, no, but I mean, listen, again. You know, I think if I was meant to become a US-Japan scholar, I, I probably... That would've been one thing. I think things happen for a reason. And you know, that's life, man. You know, h- would you have predicted 20 years ago that you'd be sitting here right now? Like, you never have thought of that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
You just, you ju- you just, you, you try to take the opportunities where you can, you try to be authentic, and when those two things interact, you take a step, and sometimes that step leads you to a good place, sometimes it doesn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, no, for sure. I, I don't plan anything. I just-
- JRJosh Rogin
Right? I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
... keep goin'.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
That's, that's like... It's not a, it's... This is not advice. This is not a good way (laughs) to go through life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
he's like, "Hey, can I, can I do some time?" I'm like, "Fu- fucking of course. Come on, man. Get in there." And so he goes up and, uh, we were ... It was only like at the end of the night, you know. It was probably like, uh, 100 people in the room or so. And I'm telling you, man, it made me think like, "God, why isn't this guy more famous?"
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like he was ... It was a late show because we had a 10 o'clock set or 10 o'clock start and I thought ... You know, it was probably like 12:30, so it was at the end of the show and he's, he's up there-And just so ... He's just so good, man.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's so tight and funny and loose and polished-
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, and trying out new shit. And when it doesn't go ... It ... When the new shit doesn't go well, it's even funnier-
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause then he'll shit on himself and his jokes.
- JRJosh Rogin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
God, he's good.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. We used to listen to his tapes all the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
So good. But I remember just sitting there thinking like, "This is a shame that more people don't know how good this guy is." He should be selling out arenas all over the world. Like he really is that good.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. That's, uh ... Everyone now should go download his album.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. W- wears the same fucking clothes every day.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. But there's a lot of guy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Black cap, black shirt.
- JRJosh Rogin
There's a lot of guys like that in the, in the ... in their- in your bu- in the standup business. There's a lot of guys like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He-
- JRJosh Rogin
Like Brian Regan, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
But Brian Regan is very huge.
- JRJosh Rogin
I love Brian Regan.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's huge.
- JRJosh Rogin
Is he bigger than Dave Chappelle?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, he's huge.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Brian Regan does ... Like he stills does Red Rocks.
- JRJosh Rogin
How about Dennis Regan?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Den-
- JRJosh Rogin
Bryan's brother.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(sighs) …
- JRJosh Rogin
times and they see which ones get the most dangerous and then they're like, "Oh, let's look at these," you know? So the theory (laughs) is that that lab accident, uh, you know, uh, pushed this virus onto the world, a thousand miles from where the bats are, by the way, and that's how we got into this mess. But the problem was once that theory was floated, the scientists who were involved in that research got on TV and they said, "How dare you look at the lab? It could not possibly be the lab. You're a racist and a conspiracy theorist if you dare to mention the lab and if you utter it, you shall be shunned," right? Shunned, Amish style, shunned. And that, that happened, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- JRJosh Rogin
And these scientists, and I'm, I'm putting at the top of the list a guy named Peter Daszak who runs the EcoHealth Alliance, who I've talked about lots of times before, uh, to this day, tell us that we don't need to look at the lab, okay? And again, I'm not saying the lab did it, I'm just saying we should investigate all the theories. Let's investigate the natural spillover theory which is basically that, I can't make this up, that (laughs) a bat bit a pangolin that traveled a thousand miles and then that spilled over to humans 10 miles from the lab. That's the, that's the other theory. Again, we don't... It might be true. I don't know. You don't know. Or it could have been the lab with all the bat coronaviruses. Now, if you came into this, you know, conversation in April 2021 not knowing how Pompeo and these scientists had all corrupted the conversation, you would think we should probably take a look at that lab. But what happened was because these scientists were covering their own asses, they were, uh, telling people not to look at the lab and because most journalists and most, you know, Americans will look at Trump and Pompeo and then they look at a bunch of scientists, they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go with the scientists." You know what I mean? It's a natural thing. Like I get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
I understand why the media ran with that narrative. I, I was there. You know what I mean? There was a lot of pressure to do that 'cause Trump's a liar and because he was using racist terms like, I won't repeat, but like, to y- for the virus and you know, that's bad and he, he, he weaponized the issue in a really cruel way and there was a rise in Asian American hate and those things did happen. Those are real and those are horrible things for our society and for those members of our community. At the same time, none of that has anything to do with the lab. But because the issues got so conflated, now to be, to even mention the lab accident theory became something that could get you criticized as being a racist or conspiracy theorist or worse and that's what happened to d- to... Oh, and then they, WHO does the investigation. Who do you think they hired to do the investigation?
- JRJoe Rogan
Who?
- JRJosh Rogin
The scientists who were the best friends of the lab. Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance. He was on the-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JRJosh Rogin
... investigation team.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie Metzl had come on here and explained the whole situation-
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to us basically-
- JRJosh Rogin
She covered that.
- JRJoe Rogan
... exactly how you're describing it.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, I know Jamie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
Jamie and I hung out once in Dharamsala, India with the Dalai Lama.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's a true story. But anyway, back to this.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs) Um, where was I? Oh, yeah. So they hired the gu- the best friends of the lab to investigate the lab.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's like hiring Robert Kardashian to investigate OJ.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's like... And, and, and when they interview these guys on TV, they always say the same thing. "Don't you want the best friends of the lab to interview the lab? Isn't that... We know the most about it. We're doing the research." It would be like Robert Kardashian being like, "I know OJ really well, you know? Let me do the investigation. I'll figure out the truth. I'll get to the bottom of this."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
So anyway, so they go to the lab for three hours, talk to their best friends, look him straight in the eye, "Did you do it?" "No, we didn't do it." "Okay, case closed." And then they concluded in their WHO report that the lab theory is very unlikely and we don't need to look into the lab, case closed, and everybody was like, "Oh, that doesn't make any sense. We can't have that. These guys have a conflict of interest. Their careers are tied to this lab." If the lab were found to be guilty, again, we don't know. I don't know, you don't know, Peter Daszak doesn't kn-... Well, maybe he knows, but I don't think he knows.... you know, their legacy, this entire project of $200 billion... $200 million, rather, to dig up viruses all over the world would be kaput. It would have to necessarily be stopped, this whole industry. Okay, now here's the part where I'm gonna get a little controversial. Are you ready?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 1:00:00 – 1:02:27
Right. …
- JRJosh Rogin
the lab, uh, that there were, that it was the result of gain-of-function research gone awry at the lab. And we have to investigate them both.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
And that's, I think, I don't, I don't, I can't under ... I, again, I understand why that's a controversial thing to say, but it ought not to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what is the argument when, when they talk about the natural spillover theory-
- JRJosh Rogin
And then there's the popsicle theory. Did you hear about the popsicle theory?
- JRJoe Rogan
Excuse me? No, what's that?
- JRJosh Rogin
Oh, this is the best one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs) So, so after a year of like ... (laughs) You know, so the, we're, we're not talking about the elephant in the room, which is really the, the, the most important thing, which is the CCP, which is the Chinese government, which is lording over all of this, right? Because it's impossible to talk about this without talking about the fact that the Chinese government has had a year-long campaign to cover up the origin, to, to squelch the science, to jail and disappear anyone who said anything that wasn't the party line. And then to use the scientists who are the best friends of the lab to launder a bunch of really horrendous disinformation. Okay, and that's not to say that the scientists are assets. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that they have a overlapping interest. If you're a scientist, you don't want the lab thing to be true, and if you're the Chinese government, you don't want the lab thing to be true. You have an overlapping interest. It's not like ... They're not colluding, they're not working together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
They just happen to say the same exact thing.... okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
And i- and, and the kids of the WHO report, they actually did work directly together. And what they say (laughs) is that, "Okay. Well, if we can't find the palm civet, you know, that like made the thousand-mile walk from Yunnan to Wuhan without spilling over once til it got to the lab doorstep, maybe it came on, on a frozen food package from Norway." Like they, "Well, let's go check every frozen food package distributor point that, like, you know, that shipped anything, any box into Wuhan in the four months before the outbreak."
- JRJoe Rogan
But hold on a second. Why frozen food?
- JRJosh Rogin
It's the only... It, they came, the Chinese government came up with another explanation. If it wasn't the market and it wasn't the lab, well, maybe the virus was on the box of frozen food that came from Norway.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why Norway?
- JRJosh Rogin
Uh, just so that it could come from anywhere. I- in other words. Or maybe it came from, you know, Japan or Thailand or anywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so they don't, they don't have an origin. They just-
- JRJosh Rogin
It's bullshit is what I'm trying to say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- JRJosh Rogin
'Cause it's a crazy thing to say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
It doesn't pass the laugh test. All right? Forget about Occam's razor. I'm talking about the laugh test. When you hear something, can you think about that being true without cracking up in your mind? Okay. It doesn't pass because, you know, what that would lead you to is to searching every frozen food package that's ever been shipped into Wuhan which creates 100 years of busy work that leads you to no conclusion whatsoever. But the Chinese government loves this because for the CCP, uh, confusion is enough, right? They don't need to find the source.
Episode duration: 2:54:41
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Transcript of episode 6_TOnNrHmis
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