EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,139 words- 0:00 – 2:53
Watches + ramen Instagram and the “Pogue” spacewatch story
- JRJosh Rogin
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)
- JRJosh Rogin
We could talk watches.
- JRJoe Rogan
We could talk anything.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know I have a, a, a, a Instagram influencer watch account.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you really?
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, it's got like 22,000 followers.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's it called?
- JRJosh Rogin
It's called Watch the Ramen. It's where I combine my love of watches and my love of Japanese ramen into one Instagram account.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
It's never been done before. Okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
That's an interesting combination. That's so-
- JRJosh Rogin
And what I do is I take pictures of my watches and I review the watches and the ramen together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
And I pair them, I mean, to some extent it's kind of a talking to-
- JRJoe Rogan
There you are.
- JRJosh Rogin
Boom.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at that. Oh, that's hilarious. You get the fucking watch and the spoon.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's a Pogue. That's the, that's the Seiko version of your Moonwatch.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a beautiful watch.
- JRJosh Rogin
... the story is, I don't know if you're ... Are you running ... Are you taping this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
This is good shit. Okay, the story is that Admiral Pogue, on his moon mission, was supposed to take the first chronograph into space and the Omega people had a branding agreement with NASA, so they gave him an Omega Moonwatch. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
And then he didn't like it. He wa- he trusted his old, uh, Seiko. That's what he trusted. So he took this watch in his pocket, which was his, and this is not the same exact watch obviously, it's a, a re- a, a version of, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Recreation.
- JRJosh Rogin
... recreation of it. And, uh, he took off his Omega once he got in, into space, and he put on his p- his Seiko chrono- uh, chronograph, and which was then forever called a Pogue. So this was actually the first chronograph worn in space. Not the Omega one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- 2:53 – 5:06
Living in Japan: food obsession, etiquette, and why the culture feels ‘future’
- JRJosh Rogin
No one's ever combined reviewing ramen restaurants and reviewing watches together and then pairing them appropriately in s- most cases. No, the real reason is because, you know, I, as a, a lonely reporter for 17 years traveling back and forth to Japan and Asia, I just got super into the food scene, especially in Tokyo. I used to live in Tokyo, I worked for the Japanese newspaper there, I used to teach English there for-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you really?
- JRJosh Rogin
... a couple of years. In Shin Yokohama, Japan. I was 23, fresh out of college, just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
... living my best life, in like an apartment the size of this table. It had like one burner, and then ... But I, I loved it and then I s- a- as I got older, I started getting into watches, and then my Instagram was like all watches and ramen and my wife was like, "Nobody wants to see that."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
She's like, "Can you just stop put it- posting that?" I'm like, "Oh, I'll just make it its own thing," and then people started to like it and in the ramen community people started to learn about watches, and in the watch community people started to learn about ramen and communities were brought together.
- JRJoe Rogan
Way to go, dude.
- JRJosh Rogin
People seem to like it. Now we're gonna get a ton more followers.
- JRJoe Rogan
D- yeah, for sure. David Lee Roth moved to Japan for a bit. Like while he was... I get- I think-
- JRJosh Rogin
Have you been there?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, I have.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's amazing, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I've only been there once for the UFC but I really enjoyed it. I was there for a couple of days. I didn't get to see much-
- JRJosh Rogin
I miss it.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but we, we went to some great sushi restaurants and got a, got a chance to ... And the fight fans there are really-
- JRJosh Rogin
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's really interesting 'cause they're super, super polite.
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And they're, they're really quiet and then when something happens, like they applaud. Like a guard pass or something that's like real technical, they, they all applaud. They get very excited about it.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, uh, I once went to, uh, Slipknot festival, Knot Fest Tokyo, 'cause my brother-in-law is the drummer for Slipknot, Jay Weinberg. And so he, he, w- I'd never been to a Slipknot concert before so we just went. And 25,000 Japanese fans, Slipknot fans, in rows, standing politely, perfect rows.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
And then the song come on, they'd be like, you know, doing this. And then the s- the s- the song would come off and they'd sit, politely wait for the next song. It was hilarious.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. It's a, it's a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Different culture.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really different, like alien.
- JRJosh Rogin
Well, that's ... Well, I wouldn't use that word, but you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't mean in a bad way, I mean in like it's so different from what we are here in America with the obnoxious people-
- 5:06 – 9:32
Japan’s deep history, consensus culture, and how it shapes society and politics
- JRJosh Rogin
I mean, you know, I wasn't planning to analyze the Japanese psyche right now, but let me take a shot at it. Um, you know, there's two things that I think really struck me about Japan. One is that, you know, we have like a 200-year history. They've got a 5,000-year history, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
So for them, for them, our history is like a, a, a snap, right? So they have things that they are doing, that they have brought from their ancient times, that they totally forgot why. Okay? They have no idea why they're doing all these things. Like the tea ceremony takes four hours, and the sumo rules are as such, and the food is cooked this way. And the tradition itself is a beautiful thing but it's long detached from any sort of rationality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JRJosh Rogin
Judaism is like this, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know, like why don't you eat this or that? I don't know, but that's what, how we always been doing it. And the other thing is that, you know, they, it, because it's so an island, it's, it's like an island in many more ma- ways than one and in a sense they've been able to develop with less influence. Not zero influence, but less influence from the outside world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
So they've developed in a way that's unique to them that has li- little to do with what we were doing in 5,000 years ago. And th- what that taught them is that they h- need to rely on each other on this.... uh, you know, island, which is basically 90% mountains. They don't really grow anything. There really, uh, like little rice patches that are like this big and, you know, there's no oil. So they had to come together as a community. And it's a very Confucian kind of thing, where you focus on, you know, the consensus and that, uh, shows itself in their politics and in their society. And basically, when you have a comp- a country that operates th- by consensus, that can have very good (laughs) , bad outcomes, like World War II when the, you know, like, "Oh, the consensus is we gotta attack everybody." Or it can have very good outcomes, like, "Oh, the consensus is we all better wear masks and nobody should get corona." So, you know, it could go either way. But it's just they- they see each other as- as a community and as a family, and they act as such. And that's- there's- There is a Confucius element to that, but there's also sort of like a- a community element to that, that- that, again, I like for the most part, but also can get in the way sometimes if you just want to buck the system or do something interesting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, they also have an ancient system of discipline and respect-
- JRJosh Rogin
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that, you know, comes from, you know, feudal Japan and also just martial arts in general. Like they're known for being the birthplace of many styles of martial arts, and also where many styles of martial arts that maybe came from China were refined and changed in- in- in Japan.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. Well, you know more about that than me. But like, I- You know, I do remember going to a Pride show (laughs) in- in like 2002. Do you remember Pride?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure, yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
It was crazy, man. I mean, I know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Some people, Pride, it was a- the competitor to the UFC in the early 2000s.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they had enormous events, like-
- JRJosh Rogin
Huge events, like 80,000 people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Saitama Super Arena.
- JRJosh Rogin
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
And what I n- That was th- the first time that I really saw up close all these different styles being posed against each other.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know, and you saw like, oh, who could really fight (laughs) , you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. No, they did it in a very unique way in Japan. They really did. And, you know, uh, it was the envy of the martial arts world because the fact that they did have... And it's- What's strange is that like it went away.
- JRJosh Rogin
It did.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what's really weird. Yeah, man. I mean, they had the biggest martial arts scene in terms of like the ability to have 90,000 people in a super arena. That wasn't a- th- at the time, America was not like that. As a matter of fact, it wasn't even that popular in America at the same time. It wasn't really popular in America until 2005 when The Ultimate Fighter was on television, on Spike TV, and the finals between Stephen Bonner and, uh, Forrest Griffin became this huge event because it was just like this wild fight that was just perfect timing, and the worlds collided in this perfect way, and then it became this- this emerging sport. But in Japan, it was already huge.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. I always th- think of Japan as going like five years into the future. You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm, yeah.
- 9:32 – 10:51
From Japan focus to accidental journalist: Asahi Shimbun and learning real reporting craft
- JRJosh Rogin
So it- they- they super appreciate that. And Japan is actually a very diverse place in- in- in a sense, in that if you go west to Kyoto and then you keep going to Kyushu or you go north to, uh, Sapporo, you will find crazy, you know, nuances and differences in the culture and the food and the people there, uh, that will blow your mind. And, you know, I- I, you know, I've been... Uh, I started my career working for the Japanese newspaper, the Asahi Shimbun, in their DC office.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, that's how you started, as a journalist.
- JRJosh Rogin
I am- I'm a failed Japan scholar.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
Um, that's tr- Like, you're a failed kickboxer. I'm not failed, but, you know, I mean, like that- You didn't-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, for sure.
- JRJosh Rogin
... set out to be like a- a- a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I would- I would go with that.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, so, you know, I wanted to work in US-Japan relations and eat ramen and travel back and forth and, you know, work at a think tank or something like that. And nobody wanted to hire me (laughs) for that because, you know, Japan is like one of those countries that's like basically okay. Like if you study a problem country, like Russia or Iran, something like that, there's industry for that. There's money for that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
You know, somebody wants to know about that. But, you know, the Japan scholarship community is very small and, uh, it's very hard to break into. And I- I'm not like one for schooling, you know what I mean? Like I- I, like I- I graduated GW in four and a half years flat and like that was it. Like I- there was no graduate school coming.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
Like it just wasn't gonna happen. I spent my time at GW working at the DC Improv, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
And which is a whole 'nother story that, you know, on here. But th-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we'll get to that.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
We can- we can certainly get to that.
- 10:51 – 19:50
Pentagon briefings chaos: the Donald Rumsfeld front-row saga
- JRJosh Rogin
But anyway, so I- I- I found this country that I loved and I wanted to spend time studying it. But, uh, so the job that I found was working at the Japanese newspaper, it's called the Asahi Shimbun. It's like their New York Times. And, uh, big bureau, lots of journalists. And if you're the Japanese journalist at the Washington Bureau of the biggest newspaper, you're the shit. You're- you're the cream of the crop, right? And so there I am, you know, 24 years old. I didn't know anything, but I spoke Japanese so they hired me. And, uh, they're like, "Go to the Pentagon." And I said, "Why?" They said, "You're the Pentagon reporter."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
I said, "What- what are you talking about?" They're like... Yeah, this is a true story. They said, "Go to the Pentagon." Donald Rumsfeld was the briefer, 2004.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
And they said, uh, "Go early, sit in the front row. If he calls on you, ask him anything about Japan. It doesn't matter what he says, that's gonna be news for us." So I said, "Okay." So I got there super early and I had a notebook. It was a little bit smaller than this one, and I sat in the front row (laughs) and, you know, the thing's about to start. And Rumsfeld, like for people who don't remember, like there used to be these things called briefings, you know what I mean? Where like officials would like talk to us and tell us things, sorry, about what's going on in the government, you know? They don't really do that anymore. Like the briefings now are all crap. They're all bullshit. But most of them anyway. But back then, Rumsfeld didn't care. He would tell you anything you wanted to know. He wanted you to know it. He wanted to spar with you. He loved it. You know, he lived for that kind of stuff. And so I sat (laughs) in the front row and, uh, Martha Raddatz from ABC, she's coming out of the bullpen, you know, two minutes before the thing starts and she looks at me and she says, "You're in my chair." And I said to her, "Uh..."... I don't see any names on the chairs. And she looks up to the wrangler and he says, "Yeah, uh, this isn't high school. We don't have assigned seats here. This is the Pentagon." And she's gotta go sit in the back, okay? So, she's already pissed at me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why did she think that she could just take your chair?
- JRJosh Rogin
Traditionally, I should have, out of respect, given the very famous senior r- producers the seats that they sit in.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
It's just the rule. It's just like a custom, but I didn't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the way... but saying it to you that way?
- JRJosh Rogin
She was-
- JRJoe Rogan
"You're in my chair."
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah. E- e- e- thing th- I love Martha Radd. She's a very nice person and she's a great journalist. But suffice to say, at that moment, I was just like, "No. I'm not, I'm not moving," okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh...
- JRJosh Rogin
And so, Rums-
- JRJoe Rogan
What did she say to you?
- JRJosh Rogin
Sh- she's like, she's, "Okay, I guess I'll go sit in the back," and then the thing starts. And Rumsfeld's doing his performance. Iraq this, insurgency that, where's Osama bin Laden, is the insurgency stronger or weaker than it was yesterday? And he's, like, just, he's just like the master of this stuff. Not that... I'm not endorsing his policies, I'm just saying-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
... he is the best. So, he calls on me randomly and I ask him something about Japan, and his face lights up. And he talks about the US-Japan relationship for 35 minutes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
He drained the entire press conference. Until the bell rang, all we were talking about was, like, Okinawa basing, or whatever, you know? And th- and, uh, all the other reporters, now they were super pissed.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
'Cause I had wasted their chance to ask 20 more times, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "We don't know." "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "We still don't know." "Where is Osama bin L-..." "We still don't know." You know? And I went back to my bosses with a notebook full of Donald Rumsfeld talking about Japan. And it was a front page article in seven million Japanese newspapers that I couldn't read.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JRJosh Rogin
And, uh, I hav- to this idea, to this day I don't know what the article said, but I, you know, I got the quotes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Big score.
- JRJosh Rogin
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
For you.
- JRJosh Rogin
... I go, "What do I do now?" They're like, "Do it again tomorrow." So, for three years, I was Rumsfeld's foil in that room and I didn't know if the fix was in until one time I didn't ask anything and he stopped me in the hallway and I didn't even think he knew my name and he said, "Josh, what, are you tired today? I coulda used you in there."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 19:50 – 28:57
DC Improv roots and the Dan Ninan incident: live-tweeting an assault
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fun to have you here, man. I f- I became aware of you because, uh, you got in a squabble with a comedian where someone punched you.
- JRJosh Rogin
Dan Ninan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it was, uh... I, I forget what happened. I, I forget how I found out about it. Maybe 'cause we share a similar last name.
- JRJosh Rogin
Is that, is that when someone was like, "Hey, do you know this guy who got punched by Dan Ninan?"
- JRJoe Rogan
I think so. I forget what it was.
- JRJosh Rogin
Do you know the true story of that incident has never been told?
- JRJoe Rogan
The true story?
- JRJosh Rogin
The true story. I've been waiting 10 years to tell this story.
- JRJoe Rogan
Feel free.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay. Now-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
Here's the thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JRJosh Rogin
Again, we're not... You know. So I worked in the, at DC Improv-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
... in 1999 as a GW's junior, right? It was great. I was just like-
- JRJoe Rogan
What's a GW junior?
- JRJosh Rogin
George Washington University.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's like two blocks from the Improv, all right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- JRJosh Rogin
I needed beer money, they needed waiters. Simple as that. I'll never forget. I walked in, there was a guy named Jo- Did you ever play at DC Improv?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JRJosh Rogin
Do you remember a guy named John X?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't... I only played it once.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it was quite a while ago.
- JRJosh Rogin
Anyway, there's this manager named... Allison Jaffe, who's the owner now, was the host then, and, uh, Mike Birbiglia was a host. I worked with him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mike Birbiglia, the-
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- 28:57 – 34:24
Comics, club lore, and a detour into cash culture
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, um, that's, that sounds like a great education though for a young guy to be working at a place like DC Improv because it's, you know, you got a chance to see so many great comics come through there. It's probably-
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a really fun-
- JRJosh Rogin
Louis Black came on.
- JRJoe Rogan
... wild place to be.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, no, it was just like, you know, and then we would go out drinking afterwards, you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's awesome.
- JRJosh Rogin
And like, uh, you know, there's this place called the Big Hunt in DC.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JRJosh Rogin
So I rec- And, uh, you know, like have you ever seen the show Insomniac?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JRJosh Rogin
That's his life. That's exactly ... Like, I, I used to drink with Dave Atell at the Big Hunt. That was exactly what it ... He's not-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- JRJosh Rogin
There's no-
- JRJoe Rogan
Listen, I know Dave very well. I've hung out with him.
- JRJosh Rogin
He's one of my favorite, he's one of my favorite comedians.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's one of the greatest of all time.
- JRJosh Rogin
I agree with that.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he doesn't get nearly enough credit because he has zero intent to publicize himself or to get more famous.
- JRJosh Rogin
He doesn't want to play the game, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's not just that. He's not interested in being famous.
- JRJosh Rogin
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
He doesn't care. All he cares about is telling more better jokes.
- JRJosh Rogin
Uh, he's one of my favorites by far.
- JRJoe Rogan
Dude, last time I saw him, it's been a while, but I mean, o- other than the last time we did the podcast, I saw him at the Improv. He showed up, I was doing a show at the LA Improv and, uh, he's like, "Hey, can I, can I do some time?" I'm like, "Fu- fucking of course. Come on, man. Get in there." And so he goes up and, uh, we were ... It was only like at the end of the night, you know. It was probably like, uh, 100 people in the room or so. And I'm telling you, man, it made me think like, "God, why isn't this guy more famous?"
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like he was ... It was a late show because we had a 10 o'clock set or 10 o'clock start and I thought ... You know, it was probably like 12:30, so it was at the end of the show and he's, he's up there-And just so ... He's just so good, man.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's so tight and funny and loose and polished-
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- 34:24 – 38:50
Pivot to ‘Chaos Under Heaven’: why COVID origins became politically radioactive
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, Chaos Under Heaven.
- JRJosh Rogin
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, there's a lot we could talk about. We could talk about Jamal Khashoggi for sure. But we're ... Um, I want to talk about this. So we were talking earlier-
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... about the ... There, there was a, there was a real problem with the lab leak hypothesis.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
In that Trump was so l- ... He was so adamant in calling it the China virus, the Chinese virus, th- that there was a lot of people that wanted to resist the idea that it was possible that this thing had come out of this level four lab that just happened to be coincidentally in Wuhan. Now it's being ... Now that he's out of office, it's being entertained. And not just entertained, it was on the cover of Newsweek.
- JRJosh Rogin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot of like top level scientists are really examining and they're, you know, supporting this hypothesis.
- JRJosh Rogin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That it's more likely than unlikely.
- JRJosh Rogin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, uh, we were saying-
- JRJosh Rogin
Is there a question? Sorry.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I was gonna say we were talking earlier that there's very few people, um, that were in support of this. And that you, you-
- JRJosh Rogin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you found it to be crazy.
- JRJosh Rogin
Right, right, right, right, right. Okay. So standard disclaimer, uh, we don't know how the coronavirus-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
... outbreak started.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JRJosh Rogin
You don't know, I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
No one knows.
- JRJosh Rogin
He doesn't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Literally no one knows.
- JRJosh Rogin
No. Well, I don't know that nobody knows. I just know nobody that I know knows. There might be somebody who knows who hasn't told us.
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe in Wuhan.
- JRJosh Rogin
Exactly. Or maybe in Beijing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe.
- JRJosh Rogin
But we'll get to that. But what-
- 38:50 – 47:09
Diplomatic cables and gain-of-function: the Wuhan lab safety warnings
- JRJosh Rogin
the coronavirus origin was very, considered very impolite. And now add to that the fact that the Chinese government called, and this is in the book, called the State Department and told them, "If you talk about the origin publicly," 'cause some of it had begun to be discussed, "you won't get your masks. You want your masks? You want your PPE? You, you, you like, you remember those plane loads that are coming from your factory?" It's like the American factory in China, but like in the crisis it wasn't an American factory at all 'cause they just nationalized that shit. And they, they're like, "If you don't want your masks, then, uh, go ahead. Talk about the coronavirus origin." Wow. And I, I, and I talked to a very, very senior, you know, Trump administration official who was just like, "Yeah, we have to shut up about it." You know? But we're, but it informed their thinking in the sense they were like, "Oh, okay. Well, we have to make changes in our government and our society so that the next time this happens, we don't have all the masks in China." You know what I mean? Right. "So that's a separate issue. We'll deal with that later. Right now we need the masks." Right? So I heard about this, uh, (laughs) so, so there were some people inside the government who were like, "Wait a second. You're telling me the outbreak happened next to the, these two, two labs." There's a bunch of labs, but like these two major labs. The Wuhan Institute of Virology and the Wuhan Center for Disease Control. Like we have a CDC, they have a CDC. Theirs is in Wuhan. "You're telling me that this outbreak happened next to these labs and what are the labs doing? Oh, they're making bat coronaviruses more virulent through what's known as gain-of-function research and they're doing that, they're, they have the most bat coronaviruses in the world and their, the research that they were doing was to make them more infectious towards human lungs through something called the ACE2, uh, uh, receptor and the S protein is the, the technical term. And then we have a virus outbreak in Wuhan that's a bat coronavirus where the ACE2 receptor, the, it's the exact same thing. It's not the exact same virus, but it's, it's pretty close. Shouldn't we check out that lab?" You know? And this was, became chatter inside the US government. Like again, bubbling up inside the system and I'm catching this chatter. I'm like, "Oh, I should probably check that out 'cause I have some sources on China." This and that. I was already writing the book, by the way. And so, (laughs) so then I found out there were these cables where these US diplomats had gone to this very lab, the Wuhan Institute for Virology two years before and wrote back these cables warning first of all that there were a lot of safety problems at the lab. That they didn't know how to operate their lab, they were begging for more help. The cables were meant to get them more help. They, the help never was, was given. And, but moreover, they warned about this specific research and the guys who were writing these diplomatic cables wrote that, "Hey." 'Cause some of the research was published, right? They didn't publish everything they did, but a lot of it was published. Like and a lot of it was done with American researchers. And these (laughs) cable writers, these diplomats were like, "Hey, we got a problem here. This lab is under-resourced and understaffed and they're doing risky research on bat coronaviruses that could infect humans." That was two years prior, okay? And now that we're in the middle of a pandemic where a bat coronavirus is infecting humans, a lot of people inside the government were sorta like, "Oh, remember those cables from two years ago that nobody gave a shit about? Like dust them off. Let's see those." You know what I mean? And I heard about them and I'm like, "I gotta get these cables." (laughs) I'm like, "This is a big story. I gotta get these cables. I gotta figure it out." So I went to all my sources like, "We can't give them to you." Eventually I found a source who gave me the cables and I published the cables. And that, in a sense, was the beginning, well part, one big reason why the lab accident theory started to take root in the public space. Because now... By the way, the State Department, people think that the State Department leaked them. That's not true. The, the Pompeo was super pissed at me personally 'cause I, I met with him later. He was very, very pissed. He yelled at me. He was not a happy man because again, they didn't wanna piss off the Chinese 'cause they wanted our masks. So I had thrown a wrench into that by floating this. Now the, again, the cables don't tell you what happened in the pandemic 'cause they were written two years before. But suffice to say they predicted the pandemic if the lab acc- or at least predicted that this could be something that could happen from these labs. And (laughs) but then Pompeo turned on down and he's like, "Yeah, we probably think it was the labs." (laughs) And the truth- Wow. And then they asked Trump the next day. They're like, "Do you think it was the labs?" He's like, "Well, I can't really get into it, but yeah, it was probably the labs." Okay? Now Pompeo and Trump-... to their discredit, were going beyond the evidence. In other words, they were politicizing the issue from the jump, okay? And that immediately went beyond what we knew at that time. And Tom Cotton did the same thing, right? He said things that if you look back, looked pretty reasonable in April 2021, but in, when he said them in February, "Oh, well, they're doing military research at the lab," and you know, he was sparking something that he couldn't control. So, he got tarred as a conspiracy theorist. Pompeo and Trump got tarred as assholes. In fairness, you know ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs) You know? Like, they were, they were, they were, they weren't doing the right thing either, but, but here I was in the middle and I'm just like, "Can't we just figure this out? Can't we just figure this out?" So then, here comes the scientists, okay? And this is the craziest part of this is that, you know, these scientists who are the best friends of the lab, and I'll name a couple of them. There's this, basically they're doing this gain-of-function research which is, again, to take r-... They collect all the viruses in the wild and then they bring them to this lab, or a bunch of labs, different labs, and they play around with them to see what's what. And the idea is to predict and preempt the pandemic, right? And this is a $200 million program funded by US taxpayers, okay? For 15 years. You got the American scientists, the European scientists and the Chinese scientists going to every cave in Yunnan and this and that, finding all the most dangerous viruses, bringing them back to the lab, and then playing around with them. This was research that was actually banned by the Obama administration in the US. That's why they were doing it all in China, by the way, because the Ob- Obama administration had put a moratorium on it. And some of it w-... Because it was risky 'cause there were accidents 'cause lab accidents happen all the time. And so they moved some of it over to (laughs) to China and they kept some of it, they grandfathered some of it i- over in the US and this program, I mean, first of all, it didn't predict the pandemic, did it? Right? Because the pandemic happened, so they didn't predict it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
So that's, that's one thing. But the, the no- the, the, the theory is that in doing all these, uh, um, um, uh, experiments to make these viruses more virulent, more dangerous, they created a super virus, not manufactured, not engineered. It's wha- a natural evolution. What they do is they run it from the, the, the, the virus into bat, into mice that have human lung characteristics and they do it a few thousand times and they see which ones get the most dangerous and then they're like, "Oh, let's look at these," you know? So the theory (laughs) is that that lab accident, uh, you know, uh, pushed this virus onto the world, a thousand miles from where the bats are, by the way, and that's how we got into this mess. But the problem was once that theory was floated, the scientists who were involved in that research got on TV and they said, "How dare you look at the lab? It could not possibly be the lab. You're a racist and a conspiracy theorist if you dare to mention the lab and if you utter it, you shall be shunned," right? Shunned, Amish style, shunned. And that, that happened, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- JRJosh Rogin
And these scientists, and I'm, I'm putting at the top of the list a guy named Peter Daszak who runs the EcoHealth Alliance, who I've talked about lots of times before, uh, to this day, tell us that we don't need to look at the lab, okay? And again, I'm not saying the lab did it, I'm just saying we should investigate all the theories. Let's investigate the natural spillover theory which is basically that, I can't make this up, that (laughs) a bat bit a pangolin that traveled a thousand miles and then that spilled over to humans 10 miles from the lab. That's the, that's the other theory. Again, we don't... It might be true. I don't know. You don't know. Or it could have been the lab with all the bat coronaviruses. Now, if you came into this, you know, conversation in April 2021 not knowing how Pompeo and these scientists had all corrupted the conversation, you would think we should probably take a look at that lab. But what happened was because these scientists were covering their own asses, they were, uh, telling people not to look at the lab and because most journalists and most, you know, Americans will look at Trump and Pompeo and then they look at a bunch of scientists, they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go with the scientists." You know what I mean? It's a natural thing. Like I get it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
I understand why the media ran with that narrative. I, I was there. You know what I mean? There was a lot of pressure to do that 'cause Trump's a liar and because he was using racist terms like, I won't repeat, but like, to y- for the virus and you know, that's bad and he, he, he weaponized the issue in a really cruel way and there was a rise in Asian American hate and those things did happen. Those are real and those are horrible things for our society and for those members of our community. At the same time, none of that has anything to do with the lab. But
- 47:09 – 50:12
WHO investigation conflicts, ‘popsicle theory,’ and China’s disinformation playbook
- JRJosh Rogin
because the issues got so conflated, now to be, to even mention the lab accident theory became something that could get you criticized as being a racist or conspiracy theorist or worse and that's what happened to d- to... Oh, and then they, WHO does the investigation. Who do you think they hired to do the investigation?
- JRJoe Rogan
Who?
- JRJosh Rogin
The scientists who were the best friends of the lab. Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance. He was on the-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JRJosh Rogin
... investigation team.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jamie Metzl had come on here and explained the whole situation-
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to us basically-
- JRJosh Rogin
She covered that.
- JRJoe Rogan
... exactly how you're describing it.
- JRJosh Rogin
Yeah, I know Jamie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
Jamie and I hung out once in Dharamsala, India with the Dalai Lama.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's a true story. But anyway, back to this.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
(laughs) Um, where was I? Oh, yeah. So they hired the gu- the best friends of the lab to investigate the lab.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's like hiring Robert Kardashian to investigate OJ.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JRJosh Rogin
You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right.
- JRJosh Rogin
It's like... And, and, and when they interview these guys on TV, they always say the same thing. "Don't you want the best friends of the lab to interview the lab? Isn't that... We know the most about it. We're doing the research." It would be like Robert Kardashian being like, "I know OJ really well, you know? Let me do the investigation. I'll figure out the truth. I'll get to the bottom of this."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JRJosh Rogin
So anyway, so they go to the lab for three hours, talk to their best friends, look him straight in the eye, "Did you do it?" "No, we didn't do it." "Okay, case closed." And then they concluded in their WHO report that the lab theory is very unlikely and we don't need to look into the lab, case closed, and everybody was like, "Oh, that doesn't make any sense. We can't have that. These guys have a conflict of interest. Their careers are tied to this lab." If the lab were found to be guilty, again, we don't know. I don't know, you don't know, Peter Daszak doesn't kn-... Well, maybe he knows, but I don't think he knows.... you know, their legacy, this entire project of $200 billion... $200 million, rather, to dig up viruses all over the world would be kaput. It would have to necessarily be stopped, this whole industry. Okay, now here's the part where I'm gonna get a little controversial. Are you ready?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JRJosh Rogin
Is it okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay. So, if I've gotten you that far, again, just to say that I don't blame anyone out there for having this notion that, like, this lab accident theory is kind of a kooky thing that, like, was cooked up by Mike Pompeo or something like that. I get why you think that. But now Trump's not... He's not here anymore, right? We don't have to argue about Trump anymore, hopefully, ever again. Right? And we can just look at the piles of circumstantial evidence, and there's, uh, plenty of circumstantial evidence that it could have come... There's some circumstantial evidence that it could have come from nature. I feel that the lab theory has more compelling circumstantial evidence because, again, they were doing that kind of research. They also... There was a huge cover-up and the virus database went mysteriously offline somehow in December 2019.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's also the evolution of the virus itself, right? That it-
- 50:12 – 1:32:04
Fauci, research incentives, and why dissent gets punished in science and media
- JRJosh Rogin
All right? Now, here's the controversial part. The- the godfather of that industry, the head of the- the... of the pyramid is a guy you may have heard of called Anthony Fauci.
- JRJoe Rogan
I- I've heard of that guy.
- JRJosh Rogin
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
Do you want to hear more?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JRJosh Rogin
Okay. So, Anthony Fauci, the hero of the pandemic, is the most important person in the world of gain-of-function research there is. In other words, he is lo- and, uh, not just him. There's Francis Collins at the NIH and some other people. But basically, he- he is the one disbursing all of the grants for this. He is the one who pushed to turn it back on after Obama turned it back off. That's a whole nother crazy story. He turned it back on without really consulting the White House. That's breaking news. Never been reported. Just broke some news on your show right now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JRJosh Rogin
Yes. Uh, he consulted the Office of Science and Technology Policy, which is, like, a part of the White House, but he didn't... Uh, you know, the- the White House put a pause on it and then he, like, undid the pause. It... The details are a little sketchy. I'm not saying that he did anything necessarily wrong or illegal. I'm just saying that a lot of people that I know inside the Trump administration had no idea this had turned back... turned back on. He found a way to turn it back on in the mess of the Trump administration, 'cause the Trump administration was full of b- bunch of clowns, right? So, at- at the end, you could get stuff done if you just knew how to work the system. Fauci is the head of that system.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why... What was his incentive?
- JRJosh Rogin
That's his... That's everything... That's his whole career. That's... So he... What he would say and, uh, to be fair... Again, to be perfectly fair to him, he's trying to predict the next pandemic. He thinks this is the way that you predict the next pandemic, by digging up all these viruses. "We gotta dig up more and more viruses and play around with them 'cause we're gonna find how they evolve, then we're gonna come up with therapeutics and vaccines and all this stuff."
- JRJoe Rogan
But there were no therapeutics.
- JRJosh Rogin
Right, but we did have vaccines quicker than most because the... DARPA funded a, a program to make R- mRNA vaccines 10 years ago that actually worked. You know, that was a military-funded program, but we can get to that in a second.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that's not related to this.
- JRJosh Rogin
Right, so the... my... that's what... that's (laughs) that's a very fair observation. In other words, the- the $200 million program to predict and preempt a pandemic failed. It... To predict and- and preempt a pandemic. But it may have also sparked the pandemic.
- JRJoe Rogan
But... May have sparked the...
- JRJosh Rogin
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
But here's my- my- my question. When I read all about the research they were doing, I didn't see what they were doing to prevent it. I just saw they were... what they were doing was examining these viruses and trying to find out how they work and trying to see what happens when they get more virulent.
- JRJosh Rogin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But what I didn't see is that... the invention of therapeutics or the-
- JRJosh Rogin
I- I hear what you're saying. I'm- I'm- I'm willing to give these scientists the benefit of the doubt that their honest goal was to create... do good science to prevent and predict pandemics.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I am too. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm-
- JRJosh Rogin
I- I don't know if they produced therapeutics. Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
What I'm saying, what... did they have a lack of funding in that department? Was all the funding-
- JRJosh Rogin
I don't know. I- I, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
... allocated towards examining the viruses themselves and not towards developing some sort of, uh, a therapeutic?
- JRJosh Rogin
Uh, I- I don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't know. Okay.
- JRJosh Rogin
Uh, it's a good question. I don't know the answer to that question.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
Episode duration: 2:54:41
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Transcript of episode 6_TOnNrHmis
