Joe Rogan Experience #1640 - Josh Rogin

Josh Rogin 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Joe Rogan 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

Josh Rogin 0:15 We could talk watches.

Joe Rogan 0:16 We could talk anything.

Josh Rogin 0:17 You know I have a, a, a, a Instagram influencer watch account.

Joe Rogan 0:20 Do you really?

Josh Rogin 0:21 Yeah, it's got like 22,000 followers.

Joe Rogan 0:22 What's it called?

Josh Rogin 0:23 It's called Watch the Ramen. It's where I combine my love of watches and my love of Japanese ramen into one Instagram account.

Joe Rogan 0:29 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 0:29 It's never been done before. Okay?

Joe Rogan 0:31 That's an interesting combination. That's so-

Josh Rogin 0:32 And what I do is I take pictures of my watches and I review the watches and the ramen together.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Oh.

Josh Rogin 0:38 And I pair them, I mean, to some extent it's kind of a talking to-

Joe Rogan 0:40 There you are.

Josh Rogin 0:41 Boom.

Joe Rogan 0:42 Look at that. Oh, that's hilarious. You get the fucking watch and the spoon.

Josh Rogin 0:45 It's a Pogue. That's the, that's the Seiko version of your Moonwatch.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Oh, wow.

Josh Rogin 0:49 So-

Joe Rogan 0:49 That's a beautiful watch.

Josh Rogin 0:50 ... the story is, I don't know if you're ... Are you running ... Are you taping this?

Joe Rogan 0:53 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 0:53 This is good shit. Okay, the story is that Admiral Pogue, on his moon mission, was supposed to take the first chronograph into space and the Omega people had a branding agreement with NASA, so they gave him an Omega Moonwatch. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06 Oh.

Josh Rogin 1:06 And then he didn't like it. He wa- he trusted his old, uh, Seiko. That's what he trusted. So he took this watch in his pocket, which was his, and this is not the same exact watch obviously, it's a, a re- a, a version of, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:18 Recreation.

Josh Rogin 1:19 ... recreation of it. And, uh, he took off his Omega once he got in, into space, and he put on his p- his Seiko chrono- uh, chronograph, and which was then forever called a Pogue. So this was actually the first chronograph worn in space. Not the Omega one.

Joe Rogan 1:32 Ah.

Josh Rogin 1:32 Despite what you may have heard. That was fake news.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Fake news.

Josh Rogin 1:35 And now that's considered a, a Pogue.

Joe Rogan 1:37 So was that a quartz watch? Is that-

Josh Rogin 1:39 Oh, no, that's an automatic watch. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:40 It's an automatic, but tha- I thought that was the problem with the watch in space, was that with no gravity, that the moving of the gears wouldn't be the same.

Josh Rogin 1:48 Admi- Admiral Pogue would dare to disagree with you-

Joe Rogan 1:51 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 1:51 ... 'cause he just did it, and that was like 1973.

Joe Rogan 1:53 Maybe he didn't give a fuck about the time, he just loved that watch.

Josh Rogin 1:56 No, no, he needed it to time the ... The whole point was that he needed it to time the bursts-

Joe Rogan 1:59 Right.

Josh Rogin 1:59 ... so that he wouldn't incinerate himself in the atmosphere.

Joe Rogan 2:02 Oh.

Josh Rogin 2:02 And he didn't trust the Omega. He knew how to use his watch.

Joe Rogan 2:05 Oh, I see.

Josh Rogin 2:06 So he was like, "I'll, I'll take this watch for the pictures, but then I'm gonna get my old trusty Seiko out of my pocket because I can't die on this mission right now."

Joe Rogan 2:12 Oh, wow.

Josh Rogin 2:13 "And I trust my Seiko." And that's obviously not as, uh, prestigious of a watch, but now it's like amongst watch freaks and geeks considered to be like one of the ones you wanna collect.

Joe Rogan 2:20 That's so weird because a watch expert was explaining to me the reason why the Moonwatch from, um, from Omega is a windup is because you can't rely on gravity because the automatic movements, you know, there's these little things and they swing back and forth depending upon like your watch-

Josh Rogin 2:36 I don't know. I don't know if that guy was full of shit or-

Joe Rogan 2:37 ... if it's all the movement of your hand. I don't know.

Josh Rogin 2:38 Or, or, but, um, like the, the Pogue, Admiral Pogue is ... The watch is called the Pogue for a reason.

Joe Rogan 2:43 Right, right, right. Makes sense.

Josh Rogin 2:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:44 Makes sense. So y- that's a weird combination though.

Josh Rogin 2:47 Well-

Joe Rogan 2:47 Ramen and ... Why didn't you just have two separate accounts?

Josh Rogin 2:50 Well, 'cause that, A, that's been done before. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:53 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 2:53 No one's ever combined reviewing ramen restaurants and reviewing watches together and then pairing them appropriately in s- most cases. No, the real reason is because, you know, I, as a, a lonely reporter for 17 years traveling back and forth to Japan and Asia, I just got super into the food scene, especially in Tokyo. I used to live in Tokyo, I worked for the Japanese newspaper there, I used to teach English there for-

Joe Rogan 3:13 Did you really?

Josh Rogin 3:13 ... a couple of years. In Shin Yokohama, Japan. I was 23, fresh out of college, just-

Joe Rogan 3:17 Oh, wow.

Josh Rogin 3:17 ... living my best life, in like an apartment the size of this table. It had like one burner, and then ... But I, I loved it and then I s- a- as I got older, I started getting into watches, and then my Instagram was like all watches and ramen and my wife was like, "Nobody wants to see that."

Joe Rogan 3:33 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 3:33 She's like, "Can you just stop put it- posting that?" I'm like, "Oh, I'll just make it its own thing," and then people started to like it and in the ramen community people started to learn about watches, and in the watch community people started to learn about ramen and communities were brought together.

Joe Rogan 3:46 Way to go, dude.

Josh Rogin 3:46 People seem to like it. Now we're gonna get a ton more followers.

Joe Rogan 3:49 D- yeah, for sure. David Lee Roth moved to Japan for a bit. Like while he was... I get- I think-

Josh Rogin 3:53 Have you been there?

Joe Rogan 3:54 Yes, I have.

Josh Rogin 3:55 It's amazing, right?

Joe Rogan 3:56 Yeah, I've only been there once for the UFC but I really enjoyed it. I was there for a couple of days. I didn't get to see much-

Josh Rogin 4:00 I miss it.

Joe Rogan 4:00 ... but we, we went to some great sushi restaurants and got a, got a chance to ... And the fight fans there are really-

Josh Rogin 4:07 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:07 It's really interesting 'cause they're super, super polite.

Josh Rogin 4:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:10 And they're, they're really quiet and then when something happens, like they applaud. Like a guard pass or something that's like real technical, they, they all applaud. They get very excited about it.

Josh Rogin 4:20 Yeah, uh, I once went to, uh, Slipknot festival, Knot Fest Tokyo, 'cause my brother-in-law is the drummer for Slipknot, Jay Weinberg. And so he, he, w- I'd never been to a Slipknot concert before so we just went. And 25,000 Japanese fans, Slipknot fans, in rows, standing politely, perfect rows.

Joe Rogan 4:37 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 4:37 And then the song come on, they'd be like, you know, doing this. And then the s- the s- the song would come off and they'd sit, politely wait for the next song. It was hilarious.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Wow.

Josh Rogin 4:44 Yeah. It's a, it's a-

Joe Rogan 4:45 Different culture.

Josh Rogin 4:47 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:48 Really different, like alien.

Josh Rogin 4:49 Well, that's ... Well, I wouldn't use that word, but you know.

Joe Rogan 4:51 I don't mean in a bad way, I mean in like it's so different from what we are here in America with the obnoxious people-

Josh Rogin 4:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:58 ... and, you know-

Josh Rogin 4:59 I mean, to, to be honest I didn't-

Joe Rogan 4:59 ... the way people are on the street in particular. They're so polite and everyone's so ... It's, it's very orderly-

Josh Rogin 5:05 That's one way to look at it. That's one way to look at it.

Joe Rogan 5:06 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 5:06 I mean, you know, I wasn't planning to analyze the Japanese psyche right now, but let me take a shot at it. Um, you know, there's two things that I think really struck me about Japan. One is that, you know, we have like a 200-year history. They've got a 5,000-year history, okay?

Joe Rogan 5:20 Mm. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 5:21 So for them, for them, our history is like a, a, a snap, right? So they have things that they are doing, that they have brought from their ancient times, that they totally forgot why. Okay? They have no idea why they're doing all these things. Like the tea ceremony takes four hours, and the sumo rules are as such, and the food is cooked this way. And the tradition itself is a beautiful thing but it's long detached from any sort of rationality.

Joe Rogan 5:43 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 5:43 Judaism is like this, right?

Joe Rogan 5:45 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 5:45 You know, like why don't you eat this or that? I don't know, but that's what, how we always been doing it. And the other thing is that, you know, they, it, because it's so an island, it's, it's like an island in many more ma- ways than one and in a sense they've been able to develop with less influence. Not zero influence, but less influence from the outside world.

Joe Rogan 6:00 Right.

Josh Rogin 6:00 So they've developed in a way that's unique to them that has li- little to do with what we were doing in 5,000 years ago. And th- what that taught them is that they h- need to rely on each other on this.... uh, you know, island, which is basically 90% mountains. They don't really grow anything. There really, uh, like little rice patches that are like this big and, you know, there's no oil. So they had to come together as a community. And it's a very Confucian kind of thing, where you focus on, you know, the consensus and that, uh, shows itself in their politics and in their society. And basically, when you have a comp- a country that operates th- by consensus, that can have very good (laughs) , bad outcomes, like World War II when the, you know, like, "Oh, the consensus is we gotta attack everybody." Or it can have very good outcomes, like, "Oh, the consensus is we all better wear masks and nobody should get corona." So, you know, it could go either way. But it's just they- they see each other as- as a community and as a family, and they act as such. And that's- there's- There is a Confucius element to that, but there's also sort of like a- a community element to that, that- that, again, I like for the most part, but also can get in the way sometimes if you just want to buck the system or do something interesting.

Joe Rogan 7:03 Yeah, they also have an ancient system of discipline and respect-

Josh Rogin 7:07 Sure.

Joe Rogan 7:07 ... that, you know, comes from, you know, feudal Japan and also just martial arts in general. Like they're known for being the birthplace of many styles of martial arts, and also where many styles of martial arts that maybe came from China were refined and changed in- in- in Japan.

Josh Rogin 7:24 Yeah. Well, you know more about that than me. But like, I- You know, I do remember going to a Pride show (laughs) in- in like 2002. Do you remember Pride?

Joe Rogan 7:30 Sure, yeah.

Josh Rogin 7:31 It was crazy, man. I mean, I know-

Joe Rogan 7:33 Some people, Pride, it was a- the competitor to the UFC in the early 2000s.

Josh Rogin 7:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:38 And they had enormous events, like-

Josh Rogin 7:39 Huge events, like 80,000 people.

Joe Rogan 7:41 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Saitama Super Arena.

Josh Rogin 7:43 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 7:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 7:44 And what I n- That was th- the first time that I really saw up close all these different styles being posed against each other.

Joe Rogan 7:49 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 7:49 You know, and you saw like, oh, who could really fight (laughs) , you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 7:52 Yeah. No, they did it in a very unique way in Japan. They really did. And, you know, uh, it was the envy of the martial arts world because the fact that they did have... And it's- What's strange is that like it went away.

Josh Rogin 8:03 It did.

Joe Rogan 8:03 That's what's really weird. Yeah, man. I mean, they had the biggest martial arts scene in terms of like the ability to have 90,000 people in a super arena. That wasn't a- th- at the time, America was not like that. As a matter of fact, it wasn't even that popular in America at the same time. It wasn't really popular in America until 2005 when The Ultimate Fighter was on television, on Spike TV, and the finals between Stephen Bonner and, uh, Forrest Griffin became this huge event because it was just like this wild fight that was just perfect timing, and the worlds collided in this perfect way, and then it became this- this emerging sport. But in Japan, it was already huge.

Josh Rogin 8:42 Yeah. I always th- think of Japan as going like five years into the future. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 8:47 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Josh Rogin 8:47 It's like- it's like the near future, you know, and- and it's funny-

Joe Rogan 8:49 But an orderly version of the future. Like not-

Josh Rogin 8:52 Yeah. Uh, it's a- it's a wonderful country. The people are, uh, you know, they can seem cold, but they're not. They're very warm. They're just very, you know, uh, uh, particular about the way that they interact. And they-

Joe Rogan 9:01 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 9:02 ... appreciate if you go to their country that you learn some of these things, which I tried to do, endeavored to do in my two years of living there. I don't think I really got to the bottom of it. I know that when my parents showed up, they did not follow any of the practices. They were not... You know, like my dad's like eating on the train. I'm like, "Dad, you can't do that." He's like, "Why? I don't care. I'm gonna- I got a bag of chips. I'm gonna eat 'em," you know? Stuff like that, like you-

Joe Rogan 9:19 Right.

Josh Rogin 9:20 So it takes a while to learn. But if you do the work and you learn the language, and again, I'm like what they call functionally illiterate. Like I can speak and understand Japanese, but I can't read or write anything, right?

Joe Rogan 9:28 Well, that's cool though that you can speak it.

Josh Rogin 9:30 Just to get around, to communicate with people.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 9:32 So it- they- they super appreciate that. And Japan is actually a very diverse place in- in- in a sense, in that if you go west to Kyoto and then you keep going to Kyushu or you go north to, uh, Sapporo, you will find crazy, you know, nuances and differences in the culture and the food and the people there, uh, that will blow your mind. And, you know, I- I, you know, I've been... Uh, I started my career working for the Japanese newspaper, the Asahi Shimbun, in their DC office.

Joe Rogan 9:56 Wow, that's how you started, as a journalist.

Josh Rogin 9:58 I am- I'm a failed Japan scholar.

Joe Rogan 10:00 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 10:01 Um, that's tr- Like, you're a failed kickboxer. I'm not failed, but, you know, I mean, like that- You didn't-

Joe Rogan 10:05 No, for sure.

Josh Rogin 10:05 ... set out to be like a- a- a-

Joe Rogan 10:07 Yeah, I would- I would go with that.

Josh Rogin 10:08 Yeah, so, you know, I wanted to work in US-Japan relations and eat ramen and travel back and forth and, you know, work at a think tank or something like that. And nobody wanted to hire me (laughs) for that because, you know, Japan is like one of those countries that's like basically okay. Like if you study a problem country, like Russia or Iran, something like that, there's industry for that. There's money for that.

Joe Rogan 10:25 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 10:25 You know, somebody wants to know about that. But, you know, the Japan scholarship community is very small and, uh, it's very hard to break into. And I- I'm not like one for schooling, you know what I mean? Like I- I, like I- I graduated GW in four and a half years flat and like that was it. Like I- there was no graduate school coming.

Joe Rogan 10:42 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 10:42 Like it just wasn't gonna happen. I spent my time at GW working at the DC Improv, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:47 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 10:47 And which is a whole 'nother story that, you know, on here. But th-

Joe Rogan 10:49 Well, we'll get to that.

Josh Rogin 10:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 10:50 We can- we can certainly get to that.

Josh Rogin 10:51 But anyway, so I- I- I found this country that I loved and I wanted to spend time studying it. But, uh, so the job that I found was working at the Japanese newspaper, it's called the Asahi Shimbun. It's like their New York Times. And, uh, big bureau, lots of journalists. And if you're the Japanese journalist at the Washington Bureau of the biggest newspaper, you're the shit. You're- you're the cream of the crop, right? And so there I am, you know, 24 years old. I didn't know anything, but I spoke Japanese so they hired me. And, uh, they're like, "Go to the Pentagon." And I said, "Why?" They said, "You're the Pentagon reporter."

Joe Rogan 11:20 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 11:20 I said, "What- what are you talking about?" They're like... Yeah, this is a true story. They said, "Go to the Pentagon." Donald Rumsfeld was the briefer, 2004.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Wow.

Josh Rogin 11:27 And they said, uh, "Go early, sit in the front row. If he calls on you, ask him anything about Japan. It doesn't matter what he says, that's gonna be news for us." So I said, "Okay." So I got there super early and I had a notebook. It was a little bit smaller than this one, and I sat in the front row (laughs) and, you know, the thing's about to start. And Rumsfeld, like for people who don't remember, like there used to be these things called briefings, you know what I mean? Where like officials would like talk to us and tell us things, sorry, about what's going on in the government, you know? They don't really do that anymore. Like the briefings now are all crap. They're all bullshit. But most of them anyway. But back then, Rumsfeld didn't care. He would tell you anything you wanted to know. He wanted you to know it. He wanted to spar with you. He loved it. You know, he lived for that kind of stuff. And so I sat (laughs) in the front row and, uh, Martha Raddatz from ABC, she's coming out of the bullpen, you know, two minutes before the thing starts and she looks at me and she says, "You're in my chair." And I said to her, "Uh..."... I don't see any names on the chairs. And she looks up to the wrangler and he says, "Yeah, uh, this isn't high school. We don't have assigned seats here. This is the Pentagon." And she's gotta go sit in the back, okay? So, she's already pissed at me.

Joe Rogan 12:30 Why did she think that she could just take your chair?

Josh Rogin 12:32 Traditionally, I should have, out of respect, given the very famous senior r- producers the seats that they sit in.

Joe Rogan 12:38 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 12:39 It's just the rule. It's just like a custom, but I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 12:40 But the way... but saying it to you that way?

Josh Rogin 12:43 She was-

Joe Rogan 12:43 "You're in my chair."

Josh Rogin 12:44 Yeah. E- e- e- thing th- I love Martha Radd. She's a very nice person and she's a great journalist. But suffice to say, at that moment, I was just like, "No. I'm not, I'm not moving," okay?

Joe Rogan 12:52 Uh...

Josh Rogin 12:53 And so, Rums-

Joe Rogan 12:53 What did she say to you?

Josh Rogin 12:55 Sh- she's like, she's, "Okay, I guess I'll go sit in the back," and then the thing starts. And Rumsfeld's doing his performance. Iraq this, insurgency that, where's Osama bin Laden, is the insurgency stronger or weaker than it was yesterday? And he's, like, just, he's just like the master of this stuff. Not that... I'm not endorsing his policies, I'm just saying-

Joe Rogan 13:12 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 13:12 ... he is the best. So, he calls on me randomly and I ask him something about Japan, and his face lights up. And he talks about the US-Japan relationship for 35 minutes.

Joe Rogan 13:20 Oh.

Josh Rogin 13:20 He drained the entire press conference. Until the bell rang, all we were talking about was, like, Okinawa basing, or whatever, you know? And th- and, uh, all the other reporters, now they were super pissed.

Joe Rogan 13:30 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 13:30 'Cause I had wasted their chance to ask 20 more times, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "We don't know." "Where is Osama bin Laden?" "We still don't know." "Where is Osama bin L-..." "We still don't know." You know? And I went back to my bosses with a notebook full of Donald Rumsfeld talking about Japan. And it was a front page article in seven million Japanese newspapers that I couldn't read.

Joe Rogan 13:48 Wow.

Josh Rogin 13:48 And, uh, I hav- to this idea, to this day I don't know what the article said, but I, you know, I got the quotes.

Joe Rogan 13:54 Big score.

Josh Rogin 13:55 And-

Joe Rogan 13:55 For you.

Josh Rogin 13:55 ... I go, "What do I do now?" They're like, "Do it again tomorrow." So, for three years, I was Rumsfeld's foil in that room and I didn't know if the fix was in until one time I didn't ask anything and he stopped me in the hallway and I didn't even think he knew my name and he said, "Josh, what, are you tired today? I coulda used you in there."

Joe Rogan 14:11 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 14:12 And I was-

Joe Rogan 14:12 So, he was looking to just take away from all the Iraq-

Josh Rogin 14:15 With a big f- with a big shit-eating grin on his face.

Joe Rogan 14:16 Oh, wow.

Josh Rogin 14:17 And that's when I knew the fix was in, right?

Joe Rogan 14:19 Ah.

Josh Rogin 14:19 And I was like, "Okay."

Joe Rogan 14:20 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 14:20 So, me and Donald Rumsfeld were making news in Japanese for three years. And my bosses think that I'm just, like, the best thing since sliced bread.

Joe Rogan 14:28 That's hilarious.

Josh Rogin 14:29 It ended in a two-week trip to Guantanamo Bay that is a, a, a, a mindfuck story I, I can't even get into right at this moment. But if you wanna come back to it, I'll, I- I'll do it.

Joe Rogan 14:37 Okay. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 14:38 But anyway, eventually I, I had to get a job in, like, the American media, 'cause if you're, like, the White guy at the Japanese newspaper, there's no upward mobility for you. So again, I tried to get a bunch of Japan jobs. Consulting jobs, think tank jobs, didn't get any. But I got a job working for a trade publication writing about the Pentagon, 'cause I knew how to cover the Pentagon. And then I, you know... Those Japanese journalists who I had worked with, 'cause, you know, people don't understand, it's like young journalists these days get thrown onto the heap, right? There's no training. Like, maybe you went to, like, if you went to journalism school, that's a great leg up. I didn't do that, you know what I mean? So usually, you have to be, like, the most aggressive or the most clever and some... Where you join a team. And if you join a team, you get the welfare of that political team that can promote you through your career. But I didn't have any of that. But I had something that these people didn't have, which was I was trained by these top, top, top Japanese journalists who taught me the things that they never teach, which are, like, how to source, how to dig. You know, how to pore through documents, how to use data, how to understand budgets, how to understand how these agencies work on the inside. And that takes years and years and years to learn. That's the, the work of covering the government that, you know, a lot of people still do, but not as much as they used to. And I used those skills to break stories. So, I became a scoop master and I started breaking stories and the more I broke stories, the more, better jobs I got. I went to Federal Computer Week Magazine, Congressional Quarterly, Foreign Policy Magazine, w- that covered the State Department. Then I covered, uh, oh yeah, Daily Beast, then Bloomberg View and now The Washington Post, and I also have a side gig at CNN. I'm a, a part-time contributor there.

Joe Rogan 16:10 Th- what a weird way to launch your career. That's pretty-

Josh Rogin 16:12 I fell ass-backwards into journalism, so...

Joe Rogan 16:15 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 16:15 My quest to eat more ramen. That's, that's the sad truth of the matter.

Joe Rogan 16:18 And when did you get out of Japan? Like, how long were you there for?

Josh Rogin 16:20 I was there for a year. I worked for the Japanese n- newspaper in DC, so.

Joe Rogan 16:23 Oh, okay. So, you worked for 'em through America?

Josh Rogin 16:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 16:27 I worked in their Washington bureau.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Ah.

Josh Rogin 16:29 Like, they've got a bunch of Japanese journalists who don't speak English and they need some American kids to, like, run around and interview people to help, you know... We were like a team. I was more of a-

Joe Rogan 16:37 Did you consider learning the language in terms of, like, how to write and read?

Josh Rogin 16:41 I tried. I just, I wa- I'm not a good student. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:45 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 16:45 As my transcripts will bear out, all right? I was, like, I, I think I was, like, eight when I was like, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I don't want any, I don't want someone at the front of the room telling me what's what." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 16:54 Right.

Josh Rogin 16:54 I just wanna... I wanna figure it out for myself. And, you know, so that led to, like, a few bad life choices in terms of, like, studying for exams when I was actually probably at the Improv, you know, not sober. And then, you know, basically, my... your option's limited. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:10 Right.

Josh Rogin 17:10 Um, no, but I mean, listen, again. You know, I think if I was meant to become a US-Japan scholar, I, I probably... That would've been one thing. I think things happen for a reason. And you know, that's life, man. You know, h- would you have predicted 20 years ago that you'd be sitting here right now? Like, you never have thought of that.

Joe Rogan 17:26 Right.

Josh Rogin 17:26 You just, you ju- you just, you, you try to take the opportunities where you can, you try to be authentic, and when those two things interact, you take a step, and sometimes that step leads you to a good place, sometimes it doesn't.

Joe Rogan 17:36 Yeah, no, for sure. I, I don't plan anything. I just-

Josh Rogin 17:39 Right? I mean-

Joe Rogan 17:40 ... keep goin'.

Josh Rogin 17:40 You know?

Joe Rogan 17:41 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 17:41 That's, that's like... It's not a, it's... This is not advice. This is not a good way (laughs) to go through life.

Joe Rogan 17:45 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 17:45 But it just happened to work out.

Joe Rogan 17:46 It kinda is. You're wrong. I mean, you're right. It's not advice, but it is advice. Like, it's not advice in the traditional sense.

Josh Rogin 17:53 It's not for everybody.

Joe Rogan 17:53 Yeah. No, it's not for everybody. But it is advice in the sense that, like, if someone, like, identifies with you, like, "That guy's kinda like me," like, it will, it will work, 'cause-

Josh Rogin 18:01 No, don't do what I did (laughs) . Study, get good grades.

Joe Rogan 18:04 Don't do what I did-

Josh Rogin 18:05 Go to grad school.

Joe Rogan 18:06 ... specifically.

Josh Rogin 18:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:07 But do what you did in terms of, like, you know, this is what you were interested in and you had passion-

Josh Rogin 18:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:12 ... and drive, and-

Josh Rogin 18:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:13 ... it does apply to everything.

Josh Rogin 18:15 Uh, yeah. I think if you can find the thing that you love to do-

Joe Rogan 18:18 Yes.

Josh Rogin 18:18 ... and you can find someone to pay you for it, then do that.You know what I mean? And that's, that was quite lucky, 'cause again, I had never thought of being a journalist until I was one. Uh, my wife, on the other hand, who's a fabulous journalist for PBS News Hour, Ali Rogin, uh, she started interning in, in journalism. She worked on it in college. She worked at NBC, she worked at ABC. This is what she wanted to do. And, you know, in the end, I think in part for that reason also, 'cause, you know, she looks better on TV than me, she's gonna end up being a lot more successful than I am. But I'm not... Um, I'm cool with that. I love that, actually. And what I... You know, I just wanna sort of work in this business, have a career and ha- make a living, and at the point where doing what I love and, you know, and, uh, and, and getting people to pay me for it doesn't work out, I'll do something else. Like, I'm not a, you know, a... It's not a, it's not a, an end for me. It's just a means. It's a, it's a gig.

Joe Rogan 19:07 It's a thing that you enjoy doing.

Josh Rogin 19:08 It's a thing that I've gotten, I think, kinda good at over 17 years of doing it, and I don't have any other skills, so I'm kind of stuck in a way.

Joe Rogan 19:16 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 19:16 But if I get canceled after, if I say like, "Fucabeam" TV instead of Huckabee or something like that, then-

Joe Rogan 19:21 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 19:21 ... I'll go get a real estate license or whatever. Like, I, I don't, you know, I don't, it-

Joe Rogan 19:24 Right.

Josh Rogin 19:25 It's like, it's not gonna, it's not gonna crush my soul if I don't... But on the other hand, I would like to continue my career in journalism, at least for the... You know, not get canceled and-

Joe Rogan 19:33 How caffeinated are you right now?

Josh Rogin 19:35 You- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:36 On what, on a one to 10? I mean, it seems like- (laughs)

Josh Rogin 19:37 This is actually just, actually how I am all the time. My wife will attest to that. But yes, there's been a couple cups of coffee.

Joe Rogan 19:45 Yeah, that Black Rifle's strong. It's good stuff. Um. Black Rifle coffee.

Josh Rogin 19:48 No, this has been- Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:50 It's fun to have you here, man. I f- I became aware of you because, uh, you got in a squabble with a comedian where someone punched you.

Josh Rogin 19:56 Dan Ninan.

Joe Rogan 19:57 Yeah, it was, uh... I, I forget what happened. I, I forget how I found out about it. Maybe 'cause we share a similar last name.

Josh Rogin 20:04 Is that, is that when someone was like, "Hey, do you know this guy who got punched by Dan Ninan?"

Joe Rogan 20:07 I think so. I forget what it was.

Josh Rogin 20:08 Do you know the true story of that incident has never been told?

Joe Rogan 20:11 The true story?

Josh Rogin 20:11 The true story. I've been waiting 10 years to tell this story.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Feel free.

Josh Rogin 20:16 Okay. Now-

Joe Rogan 20:18 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 20:19 Here's the thing.

Joe Rogan 20:20 Okay.

Josh Rogin 20:21 Again, we're not... You know. So I worked in the, at DC Improv-

Joe Rogan 20:25 Right.

Josh Rogin 20:26 ... in 1999 as a GW's junior, right? It was great. I was just like-

Joe Rogan 20:30 What's a GW junior?

Josh Rogin 20:31 George Washington University.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Oh.

Josh Rogin 20:33 It's like two blocks from the Improv, all right?

Joe Rogan 20:35 Oh, okay.

Josh Rogin 20:35 I needed beer money, they needed waiters. Simple as that. I'll never forget. I walked in, there was a guy named Jo- Did you ever play at DC Improv?

Joe Rogan 20:42 Yes.

Josh Rogin 20:43 Do you remember a guy named John X?

Joe Rogan 20:44 I don't... I only played it once.

Josh Rogin 20:46 Okay.

Joe Rogan 20:46 And it was quite a while ago.

Josh Rogin 20:48 Anyway, there's this manager named... Allison Jaffe, who's the owner now, was the host then, and, uh, Mike Birbiglia was a host. I worked with him.

Joe Rogan 20:53 Mike Birbiglia, the-

Josh Rogin 20:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:55 ... the comic?

Josh Rogin 20:55 Yeah, yeah. He was, he was at Georgetown when I was at GW. We're about the same age.

Joe Rogan 20:58 Oh, he was the host of the show?

Josh Rogin 20:59 No, no, he was literally the host that takes you to your seat and tells you, gives you your napkin.

Joe Rogan 21:03 That's what I was thinking you said.

Josh Rogin 21:04 That's what he was.

Joe Rogan 21:04 Oh, wow. That's crazy.

Josh Rogin 21:05 I was a waiter and he was the guy who takes your ticket and shows you to your seat, 'cause he was trying to break into the business.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Oh.

Josh Rogin 21:11 And he wa- uh, he always had notebooks. He was always writing, like he was very smart guy, as you know.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 21:15 Very, like, cerebral comic. And, uh, but we were friendly, you know, and, and, you know, uh, um, you know, I didn't care. I wasn't trying to break into standup comedy. I just wanted, you know, weed money and, and so I was like trying to work there, but I got to hang out with all my stars, all my favorite stars. So it was like, you know, all the, the, the Living Color guys, David Alan Grier would always come through, Keenan Ivory Wayans. Uh, um, a lot of the, like, uh, Dave Attell was a big one. Dave Chappelle-

Joe Rogan 21:42 Mm.

Josh Rogin 21:42 ... lived in DC at the time. Well, he didn't live in DC at the time, but his mom lived there and that was like his hometown, so he would do these like endless four hour sets where he would try out all this new shit and we would just sit there, no... Full house, no one would ever leave. You never saw anybody, you know, perform like that, you know? And, uh, so it was just a great job. I eventually got fired. That's a separate story.

Joe Rogan 22:01 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 22:02 Neither here nor there. It's w- water under the bridge. But anyway, I stayed in touch with them and Allison, who was the host, she became the owner and, uh, you know, and so I kept in touch with her. And I would go to... Every year they had this thing called the Celebrity DC Comedy Contest. It was like a charity event, which actually, like, turned out to be corrupt in the end, because-

Joe Rogan 22:20 Really?

Josh Rogin 22:21 Yeah, the guy who was running it was like, "I'm the charity." (laughs) The charity's never got any money. That's a, that-

Joe Rogan 22:25 Oh, no.

Josh Rogin 22:25 Now he's probably gonna sue me, but the point is that-

Joe Rogan 22:27 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 22:27 ... it's true anyway. So anyways, they, they would have, they would have a, like Joe Lieberman would get up and do like six minutes of blue standup. They were just pretty funny, you know? Grover Norquist was always doing, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:37 That was back when he was blue. Is he red now?

Josh Rogin 22:40 Ah, I see, I see what you did there. I see what you did there.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Got it.

Josh Rogin 22:43 I see what you did there.

Joe Rogan 22:43 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 22:43 It was, uh, uh, very funny.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Blue meaning dirty.

Josh Rogin 22:47 Yeah, like, like sad comedy.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Right, not like... Oh, blue.

Josh Rogin 22:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:50 Oh, sad.

Josh Rogin 22:51 Like he was working blue, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:52 But you, you-

Josh Rogin 22:53 Is that not a, that not a standup term? Did I use that already?

Joe Rogan 22:55 Blue is dirty.

Josh Rogin 22:56 Oh, yeah, blue, that too.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Yeah, but that's what blue stands for. Like, do you work blue? It's a weird-

Josh Rogin 23:01 Ah, I see.

Joe Rogan 23:01 It's very obscure. You never hear it anymore.

Josh Rogin 23:02 Oh.

Joe Rogan 23:02 But that's what it used to be back in, like, the '90s, I guess.

Josh Rogin 23:05 Oh.

Joe Rogan 23:05 Like, he works blue. Like, you say-

Josh Rogin 23:07 Okay, so I massacred that. I massacred that.

Joe Rogan 23:09 No, but you just, you did it in a sense of like he would say depressing shit.

Josh Rogin 23:12 He was, it was like dark.

Joe Rogan 23:13 Dark.

Josh Rogin 23:14 It was dark.

Joe Rogan 23:14 Oh, okay.

Josh Rogin 23:14 He did a lot of black com... Maybe it's black comedy? Is that right?

Joe Rogan 23:17 Yeah. No, but black comedy's-

Josh Rogin 23:17 Anyway, we're getting off the subject.

Joe Rogan 23:18 ... a very different thing.

Josh Rogin 23:19 Can we get back on track with this story?

Joe Rogan 23:20 Yes, we certainly can.

Josh Rogin 23:21 We only got three hours. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:23 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 23:23 We're wasting time.

Joe Rogan 23:25 Let's get back on track.

Josh Rogin 23:26 So anyway, Dan Ninan is the, is the ringer. They paid him to be the ringer. You know, the one paid guy who gets pa- Everyone else is doing it for charities, okay?

Joe Rogan 23:34 Okay.

Josh Rogin 23:34 And if you don't know who Dan Ninan is out there, he, he was first made famous b- because he, he's like the Silicon Valley tech guy who decided to toss it all and become a standup comedian 'cause that was his true calling. And he would do all these corporate gigs and, you know, for these Silicon, Silicon Valley companies. He made a bunch of money, performed for Obama, he got a little buzz. He bought 400,000 followers on Twitter. That was like one thing. And anyway, he was supposed to be this clean comic. He's like a... "I'm the clean comic that you can invite to your corporate event," right? It's not, he's not like, uh, playing over like, you know, trying to do comedy over like stripper music like you were packing with... You know what I mean? Like, like he, he's a corporated corporate guy.

Joe Rogan 24:11 So he wasn't doing road gigs. He was doing-

Josh Rogin 24:13 He, he was doing some of that.

Joe Rogan 24:14 ... just these sort of-

Josh Rogin 24:15 But mostly the, mostly the, the corporate-

Joe Rogan 24:17 Corporate gigs.

Josh Rogin 24:18 ... conference stuff.

Joe Rogan 24:19 Yeah, right.

Josh Rogin 24:19 Which is fine. That's all well and good. Anyway-... his, his act was just, like, it was, it was crap, right? It was just, like, not funny. And I was tweeting about it from my seat on the high tops in the back.

Joe Rogan 24:29 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 24:29 And I was, to be fair, I was tweeting sarcastic stuff about all the comics, but the other ones are like journalists and politicians, they don't care. And because I worked there and because I was, like, using the club's, uh, Twitter feed, uh, someone showed it to him-

Joe Rogan 24:41 Oh, you were doing it through the DC Improv's-

Josh Rogin 24:43 I just tagged them. No.

Joe Rogan 24:44 Oh.

Josh Rogin 24:44 I just tagged them. So the staff saw it. They're like, they showed it to him in the green room. And he comes to the back of the room, he says, "Are you Josh Rogan?" I said, "Yes." He punches me in the face. And I was like, "Have you ever been sucker pu-" I mean, you've been sucker punched. It's, you, you're kind of shocked. You're like, "Did that just happen?"

Joe Rogan 24:59 Right.

Josh Rogin 24:59 And there's like ... By the way, there's like seven journalists who are there covering the thing. We're not covering the thing, we're just going for the free drinks.

Joe Rogan 25:05 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 25:05 And, uh, and they're all like, "Did that just happen?" So I start tweeting, "Dan Nina just punched me in the face."

Joe Rogan 25:11 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 25:11 And then (laughs) he starts like ... You know, his jokes were terrible, like, "Election, erection," you know, like e- e- ... like kinda like weirdly vaguely problematic jokes for an Indian guy to make, right? And then, uh, he (laughs) , he, he sees me tweeting about him and he comes back and he swings at me again. He's like flailing.

Joe Rogan 25:28 Again?

Josh Rogin 25:29 Again. He hit me twice.

Joe Rogan 25:30 He comes back again?

Josh Rogin 25:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:31 So he doesn't think, "I'm gonna get arrested, I just punched a guy. Let me get the fuck outta here."

Josh Rogin 25:35 No.

Joe Rogan 25:35 And he sticks around?

Josh Rogin 25:35 He wants to stop me from tweeting about it.

Joe Rogan 25:37 (gasps)

Josh Rogin 25:37 Yeah. Mashable said I was the first person to ever live tweet my own assault.

Joe Rogan 25:41 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 25:41 True story. So anyway, so then Alison, the owner, she calls the cops, they arrest him, um, and, you know, uh, it was a, it became a big story because of the seven journalists who were there to cover it. They didn't wanna cover Joe Lieberman's black co- you know, whatever. This was a much better story. So they, immediately there were seven art- ... Before he posted bail, there were seven articles about it. And then that became viral and that became a big thing. And the Taiwanese media made like an animation of my assault, like an animation depiction of it.

Joe Rogan 26:09 Is that available online still? (laughs)

Josh Rogin 26:10 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You can pull that up right now.

Joe Rogan 26:12 Jamie.

Josh Rogin 26:12 It's, it's hilarious. It's like, it's not that long. They did a pretty good job with it. Uh, anyway, so then I was like, "You know what? Okay, fine, it happened. It's like a little viral moment, you know, no big deal." I wasn't hurt or anything. And then this, I wanna use my words carefully-

Joe Rogan 26:27 Motherfucker?

Josh Rogin 26:27 This sociopathic violent hack starts lying on TV and radio, "I never punched him, I never did this. He made it all up. What is this going on?" And I'm a, at the ... I'm a columnist now, so I can tell you what I really ... I'm like a, I can say these. Like, at that time, I didn't want to get into a public thing. Like I was ... I'm not allowed to do that. And he, he just ... By the way, he pled guilty and did probation, whatever. I didn't even care. Then through an intermediary, he called me and tried to bribe me to, to pull the charges, like give me a bunch of money.

Joe Rogan 27:01 How much?

Josh Rogin 27:02 Uh, I think the number that I was quoted was 10 grand.

Joe Rogan 27:04 That's not enough.

Josh Rogin 27:06 It's not that. I'm, I'm, I'm not taking any bri- Like, I'm a journalist-

Joe Rogan 27:09 What if it was like-

Josh Rogin 27:09 ... I can't take any bribe.

Joe Rogan 27:09 ... 500 grand to stop talking about it?

Josh Rogin 27:11 I don't like where this conversation is going (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 27:13 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 27:13 Because every man has his price.

Joe Rogan 27:15 But that's a good amount of money. I mean, everybody already knows about it.

Josh Rogin 27:18 Uh, he just wanted to avoid the charge-

Joe Rogan 27:19 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 27:19 ... because I wrote on the chart, you know?

Joe Rogan 27:21 I understand.

Josh Rogin 27:21 So anyway, this guy is like f- for years and years and years telling lies about me in public.

Joe Rogan 27:28 Uh.

Josh Rogin 27:29 And then he, like, just the story changes every time. He's like OJ, like he, in his mind, he doesn't believe he did it.

Joe Rogan 27:34 Of course.

Josh Rogin 27:34 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 27:34 And he changes the story a lot.

Josh Rogin 27:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 27:36 Right, of course.

Josh Rogin 27:36 But, but like, that's why I say there must be ... Like, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a-

Joe Rogan 27:40 There's an issue.

Josh Rogin 27:41 There's an issue.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Some sort of pathology.

Josh Rogin 27:42 And then I started meeting other comedians like Hasan Minhaj who was like, "Oh, yeah. This guy's crazy. He gets into all these crazy email ..." He's like a, he's like do- ... He's very aggressive, he's harassing," and this and that. They're like, "You better steer clear of him." Uh, and then, uh, you know, actually the problem solved itself because, uh, this article came out in 2017 about how he was totally lying about his age the whole time. He was like the millennial comic, but he was like 55.

Joe Rogan 28:04 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 28:05 Did you know this?

Joe Rogan 28:07 No. (laughs)

Josh Rogin 28:07 He was, he was quoted, you know-

Joe Rogan 28:08 I didn't know, I-

Josh Rogin 28:08 ... like, he would, he would get all these-

Joe Rogan 28:09 I didn't know who he was till today.

Josh Rogin 28:10 He was giving ... This is a real example. He was giving, uh, sex tips in Cosmopolitan as a 31-year-old, you know, quoted on the record, but he was like 55 at the time.

Joe Rogan 28:18 (mouth fart)

Josh Rogin 28:20 So he's a fraudster, a fraudster. Okay?

Joe Rogan 28:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 28:23 A classic fraudster.

Joe Rogan 28:24 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 28:24 In the classic sense. And, uh, n- now, now I don't think he's worked since, so we might be, you know, piling onto him, uh, cruelly. So in that sense, I would like to say that ...

Joe Rogan 28:33 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 28:34 I'm sorry, Dan Nina, for ... But you forced me.

Joe Rogan 28:37 Sometimes you have to take into consideration cancel culture.

Josh Rogin 28:39 No. I mean, he's already been can- ... He was canceled before, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 28:41 Yes, but you have to take into consideration he coming after you-

Josh Rogin 28:43 I'm not trying to pile-

Joe Rogan 28:44 ... if you're piling on.

Josh Rogin 28:45 I don't, I don't want to be un- unduly punitive against Dan Nina.

Joe Rogan 28:49 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 28:50 But the bottom line is the true story has never been told until this moment, Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Well, I'm glad you told the true story.

Josh Rogin 28:53 Okay? And now I, I had to get that off my chest. Now let's talk about something real.

Joe Rogan 28:57 Yeah. Well, um, that's, that sounds like a great education though for a young guy to be working at a place like DC Improv because it's, you know, you got a chance to see so many great comics come through there. It's probably-

Josh Rogin 29:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:08 ... a really fun-

Josh Rogin 29:09 Louis Black came on.

Joe Rogan 29:09 ... wild place to be.

Josh Rogin 29:11 Yeah, no, it was just like, you know, and then we would go out drinking afterwards, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 29:15 Oh, that's awesome.

Josh Rogin 29:15 And like, uh, you know, there's this place called the Big Hunt in DC.

Joe Rogan 29:19 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 29:19 So I rec- And, uh, you know, like have you ever seen the show Insomniac?

Joe Rogan 29:22 Yes.

Josh Rogin 29:23 That's his life. That's exactly ... Like, I, I used to drink with Dave Atell at the Big Hunt. That was exactly what it ... He's not-

Joe Rogan 29:28 Oh.

Josh Rogin 29:29 There's no-

Joe Rogan 29:29 Listen, I know Dave very well. I've hung out with him.

Josh Rogin 29:31 He's one of my favorite, he's one of my favorite comedians.

Joe Rogan 29:32 He's one of the greatest of all time.

Josh Rogin 29:33 I agree with that.

Joe Rogan 29:33 And he doesn't get nearly enough credit because he has zero intent to publicize himself or to get more famous.

Josh Rogin 29:40 He doesn't want to play the game, but-

Joe Rogan 29:41 Well, it's not just that. He's not interested in being famous.

Josh Rogin 29:44 Oh.

Joe Rogan 29:44 He doesn't care. All he cares about is telling more better jokes.

Josh Rogin 29:49 Uh, he's one of my favorites by far.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Dude, last time I saw him, it's been a while, but I mean, o- other than the last time we did the podcast, I saw him at the Improv. He showed up, I was doing a show at the LA Improv and, uh, he's like, "Hey, can I, can I do some time?" I'm like, "Fu- fucking of course. Come on, man. Get in there." And so he goes up and, uh, we were ... It was only like at the end of the night, you know. It was probably like, uh, 100 people in the room or so. And I'm telling you, man, it made me think like, "God, why isn't this guy more famous?"

Josh Rogin 30:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:19 Like he was ... It was a late show because we had a 10 o'clock set or 10 o'clock start and I thought ... You know, it was probably like 12:30, so it was at the end of the show and he's, he's up there-And just so ... He's just so good, man.

Josh Rogin 30:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:34 He's so tight and funny and loose and polished-

Josh Rogin 30:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:37 ... and, and trying out new shit. And when it doesn't go ... It ... When the new shit doesn't go well, it's even funnier-

Josh Rogin 30:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:43 ... 'cause then he'll shit on himself and his jokes.

Josh Rogin 30:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:46 God, he's good.

Josh Rogin 30:47 Yeah. We used to listen to his tapes all the time.

Joe Rogan 30:49 So good. But I remember just sitting there thinking like, "This is a shame that more people don't know how good this guy is." He should be selling out arenas all over the world. Like he really is that good.

Josh Rogin 30:58 Yeah. That's, uh ... Everyone now should go download his album.

Joe Rogan 31:01 Yeah. W- wears the same fucking clothes every day.

Josh Rogin 31:03 Yeah. But there's a lot of guy-

Joe Rogan 31:04 Black cap, black shirt.

Josh Rogin 31:04 There's a lot of guys like that in the, in the ... in their- in your bu- in the standup business. There's a lot of guys like that.

Joe Rogan 31:08 Yeah. He-

Josh Rogin 31:08 Like Brian Regan, okay?

Joe Rogan 31:09 But Brian Regan is very huge.

Josh Rogin 31:11 I love Brian Regan.

Joe Rogan 31:11 He's huge.

Josh Rogin 31:11 Is he bigger than Dave Chappelle?

Joe Rogan 31:12 Yeah, he's huge.

Josh Rogin 31:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 31:13 Brian Regan does ... Like he stills does Red Rocks.

Josh Rogin 31:15 How about Dennis Regan?

Joe Rogan 31:16 Uh, Den-

Josh Rogin 31:16 Bryan's brother.

Joe Rogan 31:17 I don't know if Dennis is doing comedy anymore. But Dennis was a great comic.

Josh Rogin 31:20 He used to come through.

Joe Rogan 31:21 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 31:21 And I used to hang out with him. He always started with-

Joe Rogan 31:22 I think Dennis stopped doing comedy.

Josh Rogin 31:23 Well, that's a, that's a darn shame 'cause he was really funny.

Joe Rogan 31:25 Yeah, he was very good. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 31:26 Uh, he always started with the same joke. He would always ... Every set, same joke. He'd be like, "You know they say making the first million is the hardest? I'm finding that to be the case." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:37 (laughs) Well, he was always deadpan and his brother-

Josh Rogin 31:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:40 ... was like way more-

Josh Rogin 31:41 Goofy.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 31:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:43 Brian is like really like fun and silly.

Josh Rogin 31:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:45 And Dennis-

Josh Rogin 31:46 Jay Mohr was always great. Uh, Dave Chappelle was always great. Lewis Black was always great. Uh, uh, Kathy Madigan.

Joe Rogan 31:53 Oh, sure. Yeah.

Josh Rogin 31:53 Yeah, she, she was there a lot. Uh, Flip Orly did the hypnosis stuff all the time.

Joe Rogan 31:57 Oh. Isn't that wild?

Josh Rogin 31:58 It works. It's ... I, I became a bel- ... I never thought it worked but I saw it. I saw it work.

Joe Rogan 32:01 I, I ... There was a guy, um-

Josh Rogin 32:03 Making these like-

Joe Rogan 32:03 Frank Santos in, in Boston that used to do it.

Josh Rogin 32:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:05 We used ... Comics would go and watch and, "This is crazy." But it is real.

Josh Rogin 32:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:10 It really can ... There's a certain percentage of the population they can get up there-

Josh Rogin 32:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:13 ... and they can talk them into all kinds of crazy things.

Josh Rogin 32:15 David Alan Grier, super nice guy.

Joe Rogan 32:16 Real good guy.

Josh Rogin 32:17 Tommy Davidson, hmm, pretty nice. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:22 (laughs) He's nice to me.

Josh Rogin 32:22 Okay. Can I tell you ... I'll tell you one crazy story.

Joe Rogan 32:24 So is he nice to me.

Josh Rogin 32:24 And then we gotta talk about China or something like that.

Joe Rogan 32:26 Okay. Okay. Sure, sure, sure.

Josh Rogin 32:26 But I'll tell you this one crazy story. Ugh, I should probably shouldn't tell this but who cares?

Joe Rogan 32:30 Then don't tell it.

Josh Rogin 32:31 Okay.

Joe Rogan 32:31 Was it about Tommy?

Josh Rogin 32:32 No.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Okay.

Josh Rogin 32:33 So Keenan Ivory Wayans demanded like $25 grand or he wouldn't go on. They had to pay him out, like the entire thing. And he was like, "I need it all in cash right now or you're having no show." They had to like scramble and go get like $25,000 in cash out of some vault somewhere. They didn't even know what to do. Like these were the, the types of things that went on.

Joe Rogan 32:51 That's a crazy thing. Why did he need that money right away?

Josh Rogin 32:53 He wanted to be paid upfront in cash. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 32:56 Cash is a weird thing to want.

Josh Rogin 32:58 I want it.

Joe Rogan 32:59 Bags of it?

Josh Rogin 33:00 Yes. Thank you. Do you have any?

Joe Rogan 33:02 No, but uh, I went to a place once-

Josh Rogin 33:05 Yes, please.

Joe Rogan 33:05 ... that sells cars and, um, Offset, he's the ... That's the dude who's married to Cardi B, right?

Josh Rogin 33:11 Was.

Joe Rogan 33:12 Was. He was there with a dude and the dude had like this, uh, designer bag-

Josh Rogin 33:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:17 ... filled with cash.

Josh Rogin 33:19 Nice.

Joe Rogan 33:19 And they were looking at like Lamborghinis and shit.

Josh Rogin 33:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:21 I was like, "Damn, this is the rap world."

Josh Rogin 33:23 Yeah, yeah. IRS will come get you though.

Joe Rogan 33:26 Well, I don't think it ... It wasn't, it wasn't that he wasn't paying taxes. It's that ... No, the s- the place that sells the cars is very legit, like you have to pay taxes.

Josh Rogin 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:33 They're not fucking around.

Josh Rogin 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:34 Uh, shout out to Fusion Motorsports.

Josh Rogin 33:35 Is it about where he got the cash? Is that the, the-

Joe Rogan 33:38 No. He got it from rap gigs.

Josh Rogin 33:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:40 I mean, it just ... They give it to him. They, they just love-

Josh Rogin 33:43 All right.

Joe Rogan 33:43 ... paying for things in cash.

Josh Rogin 33:44 Good for them. Hey. I-

Joe Rogan 33:46 Yeah. I think it's just a fun thing to do.

Josh Rogin 33:48 I imagine so.

Joe Rogan 33:49 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 33:50 Let, let me know if you want-

Joe Rogan 33:51 Just stacks of hundreds.

Josh Rogin 33:51 If you wanna try it sometime.

Joe Rogan 33:52 Shh.

Josh Rogin 33:52 Call me up.

Joe Rogan 33:53 But he was looking at Lamborghinis and he was looking at muscle cars. He was looking at a bunch of different shit.

Josh Rogin 33:57 Good for him, man.

Joe Rogan 33:57 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 33:58 No shame in that game.

Joe Rogan 33:59 No. There's uh, it's, it's fun to watch though. A guy walk in with a duffle bag filled with cash. Like wow.

Josh Rogin 34:06 Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's the improv- ... That's the Dan Ainon story. Sorry, Dan Ainon.

Joe Rogan 34:11 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 34:11 Not sorry. Prick. Sorry.

Joe Rogan 34:14 That's how I found out about you though.

Josh Rogin 34:15 I didn't mean that. I take that back. I take that back.

Joe Rogan 34:17 That's how I found out about you. So when, uh-

Josh Rogin 34:19 Okay.

Joe Rogan 34:19 ... your name came across again about this book.

Josh Rogin 34:20 Well, thank you, Dan Ainon. You got me booked on The Joe Rogan Show.

Joe Rogan 34:22 Yeah. You, you made me popular.

Josh Rogin 34:23 It has nothing to do with the fact that my name is Rogan.

Joe Rogan 34:24 Uh, Chaos Under Heaven.

Josh Rogin 34:26 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 34:26 Um, there's a lot we could talk about. We could talk about Jamal Khashoggi for sure. But we're ... Um, I want to talk about this. So we were talking earlier-

Josh Rogin 34:33 Okay.

Joe Rogan 34:33 ... about the ... There, there was a, there was a real problem with the lab leak hypothesis.

Josh Rogin 34:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:39 In that Trump was so l- ... He was so adamant in calling it the China virus, the Chinese virus, th- that there was a lot of people that wanted to resist the idea that it was possible that this thing had come out of this level four lab that just happened to be coincidentally in Wuhan. Now it's being ... Now that he's out of office, it's being entertained. And not just entertained, it was on the cover of Newsweek.

Josh Rogin 35:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:03 A lot of like top level scientists are really examining and they're, you know, supporting this hypothesis.

Josh Rogin 35:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:11 That it's more likely than unlikely.

Josh Rogin 35:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:14 But, uh, we were saying-

Josh Rogin 35:16 Is there a question? Sorry.

Joe Rogan 35:17 No, I was gonna say we were talking earlier that there's very few people, um, that were in support of this. And that you, you-

Josh Rogin 35:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:25 ... you found it to be crazy.

Josh Rogin 35:27 Right, right, right, right, right. Okay. So standard disclaimer, uh, we don't know how the coronavirus-

Joe Rogan 35:34 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 35:34 ... outbreak started.

Joe Rogan 35:35 Yes.

Josh Rogin 35:35 You don't know, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 35:37 No one knows.

Josh Rogin 35:37 He doesn't know.

Joe Rogan 35:38 Literally no one knows.

Josh Rogin 35:39 No. Well, I don't know that nobody knows. I just know nobody that I know knows. There might be somebody who knows who hasn't told us.

Joe Rogan 35:43 Maybe in Wuhan.

Josh Rogin 35:45 Exactly. Or maybe in Beijing.

Joe Rogan 35:46 Maybe.

Josh Rogin 35:47 But we'll get to that. But what-

Joe Rogan 35:48 Or maybe at the WHO.

Josh Rogin 35:49 So, so, so before anyone says that like we're trying to push the lab accident theory. No, no, no. We're not pushing the lab accident theory. Well, the argument that I make in the book, and I think I lay out a bunch of evidence to support this argument but you be the judge, is that we have to investigate the lab accident theory. In other words, not that we know it came from the lab, but that there's enough circumstantial evidence that we can't rule it out. And when ... I understand very intimately actually how this story got so fucked up. And it's ... And here we are in April, uh, 2021 and it's been a year, a year, and we have no information, uh, that is getting us closer to the virus. All the investigations have been crap, okay. Uh, there's a lack of curiosity both in governments around the world and international organizations and in the media.... and I'm not, you know, I'm not a media critic, but I'm just a guy who worked in the media for 17 years who, who, uh, is kinda shocked that nobody seems to care, frankly, about the origins. But the, it's, to talk about the origin story, we sort of have to first go back and understand how the story got so fucked up. It's really important. And I'm gonna do that as concisely as possible right now. Okay. You remember back in March, April 2020, it was a very crazy time in all of our lives, right? Things were disrupted, people were getting sick, we didn't get a lot of good information. Uh, we didn't know what was going on. People were losing their livelihoods, their businesses, their family members. And the all, this was the time when the coronavirus pandemic, as you remember, started to get very political. Like for the first couple few weeks it was like, "Hey, we got a problem here. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. We all gotta come together on this thing." Around March or April is where everybody started to get onto teams. "I'm on team mask. I'm on team hydroxychloroquine. I'm on team shooting bleach into my butt." Whatever the team is. (laughs) Right? I'm on team science. I'm on team- Yes. ... you know, Biden, uh, you know, Beijing Biden, Hunter Biden laptop. I'm on that team. And that's how Washington is, frankly. It's factional, right? Mm-hmm. Now, because of my odd story that I just laid out for you, I happen to not be in any of these factions. You know what I mean? I just never joined any of them. I, I deal with all of them and I, I move between them. So I'm watching all of this happen and I'm thinking, "Oh wait, this is really dangerous." 'Cause this story is not j- the coronavirus origin story is not just about blaming China. Because of course you could blame China for a number of things in the pandemic. For hiding the science, for hiding the scientists, for jailing the journalists, for not locking down. W- if you wanna, if you're just about blaming China, and I'm not, you have ample reasons to blame China. The origin story is about figuring out how this happened so that it doesn't happen again. You know? In any disaster in the world, if it's a plane crash or anything, the obvious thing to do is to figure out what happened. 'Cause otherwise how can you inform policy and politics to make sure that doesn't happen again? It seems pretty obvious. But at that time and space where we're all living in this dystopian crisis, that wasn't the most important thing. The most important thing is like, you know, where's grandma? Is everyone safe? What should I do? How do I get my job back? You know, stuff like that. Okay. So talking about

Josh Rogin 38:50 the coronavirus origin was very, considered very impolite. And now add to that the fact that the Chinese government called, and this is in the book, called the State Department and told them, "If you talk about the origin publicly," 'cause some of it had begun to be discussed, "you won't get your masks. You want your masks? You want your PPE? You, you, you like, you remember those plane loads that are coming from your factory?" It's like the American factory in China, but like in the crisis it wasn't an American factory at all 'cause they just nationalized that shit. And they, they're like, "If you don't want your masks, then, uh, go ahead. Talk about the coronavirus origin." Wow. And I, I, and I talked to a very, very senior, you know, Trump administration official who was just like, "Yeah, we have to shut up about it." You know? But we're, but it informed their thinking in the sense they were like, "Oh, okay. Well, we have to make changes in our government and our society so that the next time this happens, we don't have all the masks in China." You know what I mean? Right. "So that's a separate issue. We'll deal with that later. Right now we need the masks." Right? So I heard about this, uh, (laughs) so, so there were some people inside the government who were like, "Wait a second. You're telling me the outbreak happened next to the, these two, two labs." There's a bunch of labs, but like these two major labs. The Wuhan Institute of Virology and the Wuhan Center for Disease Control. Like we have a CDC, they have a CDC. Theirs is in Wuhan. "You're telling me that this outbreak happened next to these labs and what are the labs doing? Oh, they're making bat coronaviruses more virulent through what's known as gain-of-function research and they're doing that, they're, they have the most bat coronaviruses in the world and their, the research that they were doing was to make them more infectious towards human lungs through something called the ACE2, uh, uh, receptor and the S protein is the, the technical term. And then we have a virus outbreak in Wuhan that's a bat coronavirus where the ACE2 receptor, the, it's the exact same thing. It's not the exact same virus, but it's, it's pretty close. Shouldn't we check out that lab?" You know? And this was, became chatter inside the US government. Like again, bubbling up inside the system and I'm catching this chatter. I'm like, "Oh, I should probably check that out 'cause I have some sources on China." This and that. I was already writing the book, by the way. And so, (laughs) so then I found out there were these cables where these US diplomats had gone to this very lab, the Wuhan Institute for Virology two years before and wrote back these cables warning first of all that there were a lot of safety problems at the lab. That they didn't know how to operate their lab, they were begging for more help. The cables were meant to get them more help. They, the help never was, was given. And, but moreover, they warned about this specific research and the guys who were writing these diplomatic cables wrote that, "Hey." 'Cause some of the research was published, right? They didn't publish everything they did, but a lot of it was published. Like and a lot of it was done with American researchers. And these (laughs) cable writers, these diplomats were like, "Hey, we got a problem here. This lab is under-resourced and understaffed and they're doing risky research on bat coronaviruses that could infect humans." That was two years prior, okay? And now that we're in the middle of a pandemic where a bat coronavirus is infecting humans, a lot of people inside the government were sorta like, "Oh, remember those cables from two years ago that nobody gave a shit about? Like dust them off. Let's see those." You know what I mean? And I heard about them and I'm like, "I gotta get these cables." (laughs) I'm like, "This is a big story. I gotta get these cables. I gotta figure it out." So I went to all my sources like, "We can't give them to you." Eventually I found a source who gave me the cables and I published the cables. And that, in a sense, was the beginning, well part, one big reason why the lab accident theory started to take root in the public space. Because now... By the way, the State Department, people think that the State Department leaked them. That's not true. The, the Pompeo was super pissed at me personally 'cause I, I met with him later. He was very, very pissed. He yelled at me. He was not a happy man because again, they didn't wanna piss off the Chinese 'cause they wanted our masks. So I had thrown a wrench into that by floating this. Now the, again, the cables don't tell you what happened in the pandemic 'cause they were written two years before. But suffice to say they predicted the pandemic if the lab acc- or at least predicted that this could be something that could happen from these labs. And (laughs) but then Pompeo turned on down and he's like, "Yeah, we probably think it was the labs." (laughs) And the truth- Wow. And then they asked Trump the next day. They're like, "Do you think it was the labs?" He's like, "Well, I can't really get into it, but yeah, it was probably the labs." Okay? Now Pompeo and Trump-... to their discredit, were going beyond the evidence. In other words, they were politicizing the issue from the jump, okay? And that immediately went beyond what we knew at that time. And Tom Cotton did the same thing, right? He said things that if you look back, looked pretty reasonable in April 2021, but in, when he said them in February, "Oh, well, they're doing military research at the lab," and you know, he was sparking something that he couldn't control. So, he got tarred as a conspiracy theorist. Pompeo and Trump got tarred as assholes. In fairness, you know ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:19 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 43:19 (laughs) You know? Like, they were, they were, they were, they weren't doing the right thing either, but, but here I was in the middle and I'm just like, "Can't we just figure this out? Can't we just figure this out?" So then, here comes the scientists, okay? And this is the craziest part of this is that, you know, these scientists who are the best friends of the lab, and I'll name a couple of them. There's this, basically they're doing this gain-of-function research which is, again, to take r-... They collect all the viruses in the wild and then they bring them to this lab, or a bunch of labs, different labs, and they play around with them to see what's what. And the idea is to predict and preempt the pandemic, right? And this is a $200 million program funded by US taxpayers, okay? For 15 years. You got the American scientists, the European scientists and the Chinese scientists going to every cave in Yunnan and this and that, finding all the most dangerous viruses, bringing them back to the lab, and then playing around with them. This was research that was actually banned by the Obama administration in the US. That's why they were doing it all in China, by the way, because the Ob- Obama administration had put a moratorium on it. And some of it w-... Because it was risky 'cause there were accidents 'cause lab accidents happen all the time. And so they moved some of it over to (laughs) to China and they kept some of it, they grandfathered some of it i- over in the US and this program, I mean, first of all, it didn't predict the pandemic, did it? Right? Because the pandemic happened, so they didn't predict it.

Joe Rogan 44:34 Right.

Josh Rogin 44:34 So that's, that's one thing. But the, the no- the, the, the theory is that in doing all these, uh, um, um, uh, experiments to make these viruses more virulent, more dangerous, they created a super virus, not manufactured, not engineered. It's wha- a natural evolution. What they do is they run it from the, the, the, the virus into bat, into mice that have human lung characteristics and they do it a few thousand times and they see which ones get the most dangerous and then they're like, "Oh, let's look at these," you know? So the theory (laughs) is that that lab accident, uh, you know, uh, pushed this virus onto the world, a thousand miles from where the bats are, by the way, and that's how we got into this mess. But the problem was once that theory was floated, the scientists who were involved in that research got on TV and they said, "How dare you look at the lab? It could not possibly be the lab. You're a racist and a conspiracy theorist if you dare to mention the lab and if you utter it, you shall be shunned," right? Shunned, Amish style, shunned. And that, that happened, okay?

Joe Rogan 45:35 (sighs)

Josh Rogin 45:35 And these scientists, and I'm, I'm putting at the top of the list a guy named Peter Daszak who runs the EcoHealth Alliance, who I've talked about lots of times before, uh, to this day, tell us that we don't need to look at the lab, okay? And again, I'm not saying the lab did it, I'm just saying we should investigate all the theories. Let's investigate the natural spillover theory which is basically that, I can't make this up, that (laughs) a bat bit a pangolin that traveled a thousand miles and then that spilled over to humans 10 miles from the lab. That's the, that's the other theory. Again, we don't... It might be true. I don't know. You don't know. Or it could have been the lab with all the bat coronaviruses. Now, if you came into this, you know, conversation in April 2021 not knowing how Pompeo and these scientists had all corrupted the conversation, you would think we should probably take a look at that lab. But what happened was because these scientists were covering their own asses, they were, uh, telling people not to look at the lab and because most journalists and most, you know, Americans will look at Trump and Pompeo and then they look at a bunch of scientists, they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go with the scientists." You know what I mean? It's a natural thing. Like I get it.

Joe Rogan 46:39 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 46:39 I understand why the media ran with that narrative. I, I was there. You know what I mean? There was a lot of pressure to do that 'cause Trump's a liar and because he was using racist terms like, I won't repeat, but like, to y- for the virus and you know, that's bad and he, he, he weaponized the issue in a really cruel way and there was a rise in Asian American hate and those things did happen. Those are real and those are horrible things for our society and for those members of our community. At the same time, none of that has anything to do with the lab. But

Josh Rogin 47:09 because the issues got so conflated, now to be, to even mention the lab accident theory became something that could get you criticized as being a racist or conspiracy theorist or worse and that's what happened to d- to... Oh, and then they, WHO does the investigation. Who do you think they hired to do the investigation?

Joe Rogan 47:25 Who?

Josh Rogin 47:28 The scientists who were the best friends of the lab. Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance. He was on the-

Joe Rogan 47:34 No.

Josh Rogin 47:34 ... investigation team.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Jamie Metzl had come on here and explained the whole situation-

Josh Rogin 47:38 Okay.

Joe Rogan 47:39 ... to us basically-

Josh Rogin 47:40 She covered that.

Joe Rogan 47:40 ... exactly how you're describing it.

Josh Rogin 47:42 Yeah, I know Jamie.

Joe Rogan 47:43 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 47:46 Jamie and I hung out once in Dharamsala, India with the Dalai Lama.

Joe Rogan 47:49 Whoa.

Josh Rogin 47:49 It's a true story. But anyway, back to this.

Joe Rogan 47:55 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 47:56 (laughs) Um, where was I? Oh, yeah. So they hired the gu- the best friends of the lab to investigate the lab.

Joe Rogan 48:02 Right.

Josh Rogin 48:02 It's like hiring Robert Kardashian to investigate OJ.

Joe Rogan 48:05 (laughs)

Josh Rogin 48:06 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 48:06 Right, right.

Josh Rogin 48:06 It's like... And, and, and when they interview these guys on TV, they always say the same thing. "Don't you want the best friends of the lab to interview the lab? Isn't that... We know the most about it. We're doing the research." It would be like Robert Kardashian being like, "I know OJ really well, you know? Let me do the investigation. I'll figure out the truth. I'll get to the bottom of this."

Joe Rogan 48:22 Right.

Josh Rogin 48:22 So anyway, so they go to the lab for three hours, talk to their best friends, look him straight in the eye, "Did you do it?" "No, we didn't do it." "Okay, case closed." And then they concluded in their WHO report that the lab theory is very unlikely and we don't need to look into the lab, case closed, and everybody was like, "Oh, that doesn't make any sense. We can't have that. These guys have a conflict of interest. Their careers are tied to this lab." If the lab were found to be guilty, again, we don't know. I don't know, you don't know, Peter Daszak doesn't kn-... Well, maybe he knows, but I don't think he knows.... you know, their legacy, this entire project of $200 billion... $200 million, rather, to dig up viruses all over the world would be kaput. It would have to necessarily be stopped, this whole industry. Okay, now here's the part where I'm gonna get a little controversial. Are you ready?

Joe Rogan 49:08 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 49:09 Is it okay?

Joe Rogan 49:10 Sure.

Josh Rogin 49:11 Okay. So, if I've gotten you that far, again, just to say that I don't blame anyone out there for having this notion that, like, this lab accident theory is kind of a kooky thing that, like, was cooked up by Mike Pompeo or something like that. I get why you think that. But now Trump's not... He's not here anymore, right? We don't have to argue about Trump anymore, hopefully, ever again. Right? And we can just look at the piles of circumstantial evidence, and there's, uh, plenty of circumstantial evidence that it could have come... There's some circumstantial evidence that it could have come from nature. I feel that the lab theory has more compelling circumstantial evidence because, again, they were doing that kind of research. They also... There was a huge cover-up and the virus database went mysteriously offline somehow in December 2019.

Joe Rogan 49:53 There's also the evolution of the virus itself, right? That it-

Josh Rogin 49:55 That's what Robert... So, Robert Redfield, who was the CDC director at the time, a trained virologist, he says, "I took a look at this virus and I concluded that it is so p- p- powerful that it- it must have been evolved in a lab setting." And he pointed to the gain-of-function research and they called him a racist and a conspiracy theorist and all the rest.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 50:12 All right? Now, here's the controversial part. The- the godfather of that industry, the head of the- the... of the pyramid is a guy you may have heard of called Anthony Fauci.

Joe Rogan 50:23 I- I've heard of that guy.

Josh Rogin 50:24 Right?

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 50:27 Do you want to hear more?

Joe Rogan 50:28 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 50:29 Okay. So, Anthony Fauci, the hero of the pandemic, is the most important person in the world of gain-of-function research there is. In other words, he is lo- and, uh, not just him. There's Francis Collins at the NIH and some other people. But basically, he- he is the one disbursing all of the grants for this. He is the one who pushed to turn it back on after Obama turned it back off. That's a whole nother crazy story. He turned it back on without really consulting the White House. That's breaking news. Never been reported. Just broke some news on your show right now.

Joe Rogan 51:01 Really?

Josh Rogin 51:01 Yes. Uh, he consulted the Office of Science and Technology Policy, which is, like, a part of the White House, but he didn't... Uh, you know, the- the White House put a pause on it and then he, like, undid the pause. It... The details are a little sketchy. I'm not saying that he did anything necessarily wrong or illegal. I'm just saying that a lot of people that I know inside the Trump administration had no idea this had turned back... turned back on. He found a way to turn it back on in the mess of the Trump administration, 'cause the Trump administration was full of b- bunch of clowns, right? So, at- at the end, you could get stuff done if you just knew how to work the system. Fauci is the head of that system.

Joe Rogan 51:33 Why... What was his incentive?

Josh Rogin 51:35 That's his... That's everything... That's his whole career. That's... So he... What he would say and, uh, to be fair... Again, to be perfectly fair to him, he's trying to predict the next pandemic. He thinks this is the way that you predict the next pandemic, by digging up all these viruses. "We gotta dig up more and more viruses and play around with them 'cause we're gonna find how they evolve, then we're gonna come up with therapeutics and vaccines and all this stuff."

Joe Rogan 51:54 But there were no therapeutics.

Josh Rogin 51:56 Right, but we did have vaccines quicker than most because the... DARPA funded a, a program to make R- mRNA vaccines 10 years ago that actually worked. You know, that was a military-funded program, but we can get to that in a second.

Joe Rogan 52:09 But that's not related to this.

Josh Rogin 52:12 Right, so the... my... that's what... that's (laughs) that's a very fair observation. In other words, the- the $200 million program to predict and preempt a pandemic failed. It... To predict and- and preempt a pandemic. But it may have also sparked the pandemic.

Joe Rogan 52:25 But... May have sparked the...

Josh Rogin 52:27 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 52:27 But here's my- my- my question. When I read all about the research they were doing, I didn't see what they were doing to prevent it. I just saw they were... what they were doing was examining these viruses and trying to find out how they work and trying to see what happens when they get more virulent.

Josh Rogin 52:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:43 But what I didn't see is that... the invention of therapeutics or the-

Josh Rogin 52:48 I- I hear what you're saying. I'm- I'm- I'm willing to give these scientists the benefit of the doubt that their honest goal was to create... do good science to prevent and predict pandemics.

Joe Rogan 52:57 Oh, I am too. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm-

Josh Rogin 52:59 I- I don't know if they produced therapeutics. Like-

Joe Rogan 53:01 What I'm saying, what... did they have a lack of funding in that department? Was all the funding-

Josh Rogin 53:05 I don't know. I- I, you know-

Joe Rogan 53:06 ... allocated towards examining the viruses themselves and not towards developing some sort of, uh, a therapeutic?

Josh Rogin 53:13 Uh, I- I don't-

Joe Rogan 53:14 You don't know. Okay.

Josh Rogin 53:14 Uh, it's a good question. I don't know the answer to that question.

Joe Rogan 53:16 Okay.

Josh Rogin 53:16 But what I do know is that the majority of their time was sp- spent digging up viruses in the wild and bringing them back to these labs.

Joe Rogan 53:22 But Fauci-

Josh Rogin 53:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:23 ... when he started it back up, did he start it back up with the intent to just uncover more information so we're b- be better informed?

Josh Rogin 53:32 His argument was, "This is vital research. The longer we pause it, the more danger that we're in. I'm trying to save the world, and so we gotta turn this stuff back on 'cause this is how we're gonna save the world from the next pandemic." Which I'm sure he believed. I'm sure a lot of these people believed.

Joe Rogan 53:45 Right.

Josh Rogin 53:45 But there is another school of thought out there, and the other school of thought is, "Hey, instead of taking $200 million to dig up viruses and make them more dangerous, why don't you put that money into monitoring and surveillance in the places where the bats are?" In other words, if you put resources where the outbreaks are likely to occur, then you can squelch them when they pop up because actually viruses change every day and pre- and trying to predict a pandemic is a fool's errand. That's another scientific school of thought. That's not the one that Fauci's in.

Joe Rogan 54:10 Right.

Josh Rogin 54:10 But- but the reason that there's no debate about this is because the NIH and NIAID structure is such that everyone gets funded by them. They're funding everybody. So, if you are in the field of virology, there's a 99.99% chance that you're getting money from Anthony Fauci in one way or another. Your grants, your careers, your chairmanships. So, there's no... there's no dissent allowed in that community. I learned a lot about the scientific community (laughs) and the virology community over the last few years.

Joe Rogan 54:34 No dissent allowed? So, no debate?

Josh Rogin 54:36 I talk... I talk to scientists all the time who say, "I... I think this gain-of-function research is really dangerous. I can't say anything. I'm gonna lose my grant."

Joe Rogan 54:42 Geez.

Josh Rogin 54:42 "I'm gonna lose my career." This happens to me all the time. And when Robert... Robert Redfield spoke up because he's a big macher and he's a head of the vi- he- head of the CDC. He said, "It... It's my opinion that it came from the lab."... because he can't declassify a bunch of classified information on CNN-

Joe Rogan 54:57 Right.

Josh Rogin 54:57 ... but he's talking about what he knows, right? It's obvious to everyone who's in the know that he's seen the intelligence and he's not just talking out of his ass. He's not some Joe Schmoe virologist. He was the head of the C- CDC. He's seen all of the secret, secret stuff, even the stuff I never get, got, got a whiff of. And he, and he went on TV and said, "Hey, uh, I think this probably came from the lab. We should probably look at the lab." And he was called a racist and a conspiracy theorist.

Joe Rogan 55:21 And, but, by foolish people.

Josh Rogin 55:21 But what he's saying-

Joe Rogan 55:22 But Faucis disagreed with him publicly.

Josh Rogin 55:24 Right. So that's the thing. So if you, if you just think about it, just for once, again, uh, I, I, I'm begging people out there, just like think again. Whatever you thought about that lab accident, it doesn't matter. Whatever you tweeted in 2020, March, it doesn't, nobody cares, right? And the same thing for the media.

Joe Rogan 55:38 Let it go, yeah.

Josh Rogin 55:39 Because it's all confirmation bias now. Like, "Oh, I, I, I tweeted this in March 2020 and I want it to hold up." Nobody cares what you tweeted in March 2020. Let's just have a, a rational-

Joe Rogan 55:49 Yeah, a moratorium.

Josh Rogin 55:50 ... conversation about what are the likely ways we got into this horrible crisis that we're in. And so for people in the know who are listening to Robert Redfield, it's clear that he's calling out Anthony Fauci. In other words, he's pointing to the gain-of-function research, which he knows because he's the head of the CDC, reports up to Fauci. He knows that, right?

Joe Rogan 56:07 Right.

Josh Rogin 56:07 But he's not saying that because e- even that's too hot for him to say. It's hot ... And, and the scientists are not gonna say that either. Now you have a lot of people sort of on the, on the right-wing media and the MAGA media who have been saying that for a long time, but they don't have any credibility with the mainstream media. And I'm, I'm just like in that weird space where like I wrote a book about, you know, US/China relationships, so I had all these, this good reporting and I'm not MAGA media because I criticize Trump in my columns all the time. So I am mainstream media, but I'm saying we should look at the lab and it messes with people's minds because they're like, "Oh, why, why is he doing this? Why is Josh pushing the lab?" I'm not pushing the lab accident.

Joe Rogan 56:39 That's the problem today with these rigid ideologies.

Josh Rogin 56:42 Exactly. Everyone's on teams.

Joe Rogan 56:43 Yes.

Josh Rogin 56:43 It's all factional.

Joe Rogan 56:44 Yes.

Josh Rogin 56:44 But I don't care. I don't even care if the lab accident theory is true. If the natural origin theory is true, then great. I will lead the ticker tape parade celebrating Peter Daszak and Anthony Fauci through, down, you know, Fifth Avenue. I'm, I'm happy to do that. All I'm saying is that we have to also look into this lab, these labs rather, and that we can't hire the best friends of the lab to look into the labs-

Joe Rogan 57:07 Right.

Josh Rogin 57:07 ... because they have a clear conflict of interest and they fucked it up already.

Joe Rogan 57:09 What is the argument-

Josh Rogin 57:11 Is that so crazy?

Joe Rogan 57:11 No.

Josh Rogin 57:11 Does that make me a crazy person?

Joe Rogan 57:12 No. No, son, I'm on your side. I, I don't think it's crazy at all.

Josh Rogin 57:15 I, I've converted your ... Well, Jamie converted you, but I'm confirming it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:20 (laughs) I-

Josh Rogin 57:20 That's all. We have to be able to talk about this.

Joe Rogan 57:22 Yes. Um, yes, we have to be able to talk about this, and that is part of the problem. But what is the compelling argument against the lab leak theory?

Josh Rogin 57:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Do they have one?

Josh Rogin 57:32 That's fair. Yeah, so there, so the, so there's two things. There's argument and there's evidence. So the c- the most compelling argument that I've heard for the natural spillover theory is that most of the pandemics or most of the outbreaks over time have been from natural spillovers, the vast majority of them.

Joe Rogan 57:44 Right.

Josh Rogin 57:45 That's a statistical argument. Now the, again, that doesn't speak to this pandemic because statistics are just statistics.

Joe Rogan 57:51 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 57:51 It doesn't tell you, it's not actual data, right? It's not actual facts. So that's one thing, like SARS spilled over naturally. Now I would say to that, SARS spilled over naturally where the bats are.

Joe Rogan 58:01 Right.

Josh Rogin 58:01 Not 1,000 miles where the labs are.

Joe Rogan 58:04 Where a pangolin walked over there.

Josh Rogin 58:04 Which should tell you something.

Joe Rogan 58:05 Yeah.

Josh Rogin 58:06 Right? Or a palm civet or a raccoon dog, whatever.

Joe Rogan 58:08 Right, right, right.

Josh Rogin 58:09 And then what Peter Daszak will say on TV, he says all the time, is that, "Oh, well, we know that the market," the Wuhan market, the seafood market. They call it a wet market. It's just a market. You know, you go to Asia, there's markets everywhere.

Joe Rogan 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Josh Rogin 58:20 "We know that the market had the animals that could have been the pass-through animals." In other words, they had pangolins in the market. Now, that, to me, that's not evidence either. That's just, again, a plausible theory. Now-

Joe Rogan 58:31 Right.

Josh Rogin 58:33 ... why is it that despite a year of searching every pangolin and palm civet and mink and raccoon dog from, you know, Kathmandu to Kabul, Peter Daszak and his friends have never found, they never found any pangolins linked to the outbreak, right? There's no-

Joe Rogan 58:47 Yeah, that's what I was gonna get at.

Josh Rogin 58:48 So this is another trope, and this is a trope that like we have an opportunity to actually fix right here in this moment, which is that, you know, and this is all, it drives me crazy when this is written into news stories because it's not true, which is that you'll see there's no evidence of the lab leak theory and there's lots of evidence of the natural spillover theory. That's what a lot of objective journalists will write into their news stories because they've been writing that for a year and they never thought about it really for more than two seconds or whatever. And the truth is that it, you know, I think there's much more evidence, circumstantial evidence to be sure of the lab leak theory. But either way, if you say there's no evidence, then you have to admit that there's no evidence of either theory. There's, in other words, we don't know shit, okay? There's no proof, in other words. There's no animal that links to the market. By the way, the Chinese CDC disavowed the market theory in May 2020. Nobody cared, nobody noticed. They, the Chinese CDC, they said it didn't come from the market. The market was an amplifying event, not an origin event. Some people went to the market, they found some people who had it bef- they never ... The first people that they found that had it and they never went to the market, they didn't know anything about the market. So, uh, again, and then you have ... I think there's, it's very plausible that this spilled over in nature. It's also very plausible that it spilled over into the lab, uh, that there were, that it was the result of gain-of-function research gone awry at the lab. And we have to investigate them both.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Right.

Josh Rogin 1:00:07 And that's, I think, I don't, I don't, I can't under ... I, again, I understand why that's a controversial thing to say, but it ought not to be.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Well, what is the argument when, when they talk about the natural spillover theory-

Josh Rogin 1:00:16 And then there's the popsicle theory. Did you hear about the popsicle theory?

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Excuse me? No, what's that?

Josh Rogin 1:00:20 Oh, this is the best one.

Joe Rogan 1:00:21 Oh.

Josh Rogin 1:00:22 (laughs) So, so after a year of like ... (laughs) You know, so the, we're, we're not talking about the elephant in the room, which is really the, the, the most important thing, which is the CCP, which is the Chinese government, which is lording over all of this, right? Because it's impossible to talk about this without talking about the fact that the Chinese government has had a year-long campaign to cover up the origin, to, to squelch the science, to jail and disappear anyone who said anything that wasn't the party line. And then to use the scientists who are the best friends of the lab to launder a bunch of really horrendous disinformation. Okay, and that's not to say that the scientists are assets. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that they have a overlapping interest. If you're a scientist, you don't want the lab thing to be true, and if you're the Chinese government, you don't want the lab thing to be true. You have an overlapping interest. It's not like ... They're not colluding, they're not working together.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Right.

Josh Rogin 1:01:08 They just happen to say the same exact thing.... okay?

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Right.

Josh Rogin 1:01:10 And i- and, and the kids of the WHO report, they actually did work directly together. And what they say (laughs) is that, "Okay. Well, if we can't find the palm civet, you know, that like made the thousand-mile walk from Yunnan to Wuhan without spilling over once til it got to the lab doorstep, maybe it came on, on a frozen food package from Norway." Like they, "Well, let's go check every frozen food package distributor point that, like, you know, that shipped anything, any box into Wuhan in the four months before the outbreak."

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 But hold on a second. Why frozen food?

Josh Rogin 1:01:40 It's the only... It, they came, the Chinese government came up with another explanation. If it wasn't the market and it wasn't the lab, well, maybe the virus was on the box of frozen food that came from Norway.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 Why Norway?

Josh Rogin 1:01:49 Uh, just so that it could come from anywhere. I- in other words. Or maybe it came from, you know, Japan or Thailand or anywhere.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Okay, so they don't, they don't have an origin. They just-

Josh Rogin 1:01:57 It's bullshit is what I'm trying to say.

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Oh, okay.

Josh Rogin 1:01:58 'Cause it's a crazy thing to say.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Right.

Josh Rogin 1:02:00 It doesn't pass the laugh test. All right? Forget about Occam's razor. I'm talking about the laugh test. When you hear something, can you think about that being