Joe Rogan Experience #1653 - Andy Norman

1. 0:00 – 3:14

   Mind parasites and why bad ideas spread like infections

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. ANAndy Norman0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Hello, Andy.

   5. ANAndy Norman0:16

      Hey, Joe.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Nice to meet you, man. Thank you very much for coming here, and thank you for bringing me a signed copy of your book, Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think. Boy, could we all use this.

   7. ANAndy Norman0:28

      (laughs) Thank you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      Forwarded by the great and powerful Steven Pinker.

   9. ANAndy Norman0:31

      Yeah. I was a lucky guy to get that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       That's very nice. That is very nice. Um, boy, but we could all use that, right? This-

   11. ANAndy Norman0:38

       Totally.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       It feels like the last year has been incredibly taxing.

   13. ANAndy Norman0:43

       Sounds like you get the be- basic premise. Mind parasites are spreading over the internet like crazy-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah.

   15. ANAndy Norman0:48

       ... and we need protection against them. We need resistance.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       What, what do you, how do you define mind parasites? Like, we were actually talking before the podcast started, and, um, we were talking about a few things, and I was like, "We gotta stop. We gotta stop talking, 'cause I don't wanna waste any of this."

   17. ANAndy Norman1:01

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       But one of 'em we were talking about was UFOs, and now, uh, until recently, over the last few years, I would have put that in the mind parasite category.

   19. ANAndy Norman1:09

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       I would have said most of that's nonsense.

   21. ANAndy Norman1:11

       But new information has changed your, your view on it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       Yeah. Yeah, it has. Uh, there was a big 60 Minutes piece last night that aired and, uh, talking to Christopher Mellon, who used to work for the Defense Department, talking to Commander David Fravor, who is the guy who piloted that jet that I was telling you about that encountered that craft off of the coast of San Diego in 2004. There's been-

   23. ANAndy Norman1:31

       Yep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       ... quite a few of these pretty spectacular videos that have come out that were released by the, uh ... Well, I don't know. Some of them were leaked and then confirmed by the Pentagon, and-

   25. ANAndy Norman1:41

       Well, that's the kinda evidence that should change your attitude from-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Right.

   27. ANAndy Norman1:45

       ... skeptical to, you know, hey, maybe there's something here, right? I, I mean, I think, um ... I mean, you've already indicated that you get the basic premise-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       Yeah.

   29. ANAndy Norman1:54

       ... one of the basic premises of the book, right? Falsehoods are mind parasites.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       Mm.
2. 3:14 – 6:05

   Nocebos, expectation effects, and the mind’s power over the body

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:14

      Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And isn't that kinda what voodoo is?

   2. ANAndy Norman3:19

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      Like, what voodoo is, you tell a person that they're cursed. You, you hex them, and then they believe it, and it changes the way they think, and they're terrified, and-

   4. ANAndy Norman3:29

      Oh, kinda like a negative placebo.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Yes, or a nocebo. That's what that is.

   6. ANAndy Norman3:33

      A nocebo. Yeah, actually, I think that's the-

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:35

      That is the term.

   8. ANAndy Norman3:36

      ... official term for it, right?

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:37

      Yeah, which is, nocebo is very real.

   10. ANAndy Norman3:40

       It's, and powerful, too, right? If-

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       There was a guy that, uh, got administered ... He was a part of a test, uh, for SSRIs, and, um, he, uh, went to the hospital and said he mistakenly take, took the whole bottle of, uh, these, uh, pills, and he, uh, he dropped the pill bottle on the floor. His heart was racing. Blood pressure's through the roof. They're like, "Oh my God, this guy's dying." He was pale.

   12. ANAndy Norman4:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:02

       And, um, they checked the bottle of pills, found the physician on the bottle, contacted the physician, and he told them he was a part of this study.

   14. ANAndy Norman4:10

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       The physician came down to the hospital, informed him that he was actually in the placebo group. Within five minutes, his heart rate came down to normal, his blood pressure came down to normal-

   16. ANAndy Norman4:21

       Wow.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:21

       ... and he relaxed, and he was subsequently released from the hospital. He thought he was dying.

   18. ANAndy Norman4:26

       That's the power of the mind over the body.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:27

       It's crazy.

   20. ANAndy Norman4:28

       Right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:28

       That's the voodoo.

   22. ANAndy Norman4:29

       Yeah. Um, ha- have you had Rutger Bregman on the show?

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:31

       No, I have not.

   24. ANAndy Norman4:33

       Um, new book out called, uh, Humankind, and he basically argues that, that, uh, nocebos, um, harness or basically trigger the power of negative expectation, negative expectations.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:44

       I'm gonna write this down now. Um, what is his book called?

   26. ANAndy Norman4:47

       Uh, Humankind: A-

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:48

       Humankind?

   28. ANAndy Norman4:49

       Uh-huh. A Hopeful History.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:51

       Humankind: A Hopeful History. And his name is Rutger ...

   30. ANAndy Norman4:54

       Bregman. He's a Dutch journalist who's written a couple bestsellers now. It's a great book.
3. 6:05 – 10:21

   Mental immunity: what it is and how it works (bonfire thought experiment)

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:05

      Mental immune system, so abusing mental immune systems. I guess we should start off with, um, what made you write this book? What was the motivation for doing this?

   2. ANAndy Norman6:14

      Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a philosopher by training, um, and philosophers have always been kinda really eager to, to invest, to test ideas and try to weed out, weed out the bad ones. That's, that's kinda what we philosophers do, and a lot of times, that doesn't make us particularly popular. Um, but I argue in the book that the philosophical method of beli- belief testing called, say, the Socratic method, right, famous process pioneered by a Greek philosopher thousands of years ago. Basically, if you test ideas with questions and then toss out the ones that don't withstand scrutiny, that's a way to strengthen your mind's resistance to bad ideas. Um, so, so here's the, here's the, kind of the skinny on this, and I think that the people who get this concept are going to be the thought leaders of the next few decades. Um, we know our bodies have immune systems, and their job is to hunt down parasites and pathogens and eliminate them, and some of those antibodies actually consume pathogens in our body. Now, the new information, which is just now coming together w- in sol- in philosophy and in the sciences, is that our minds have immune systems just like our bodies do, only a mental immune system's job is to hunt down and remove mind parasites, or bad ideas. Never seen you speechless before.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:51

      No, I'm not speechless. I, I just didn't know if you were done with your sentence.

   4. ANAndy Norman7:54

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      I understand that the, the mind parasites can ruin your mind and that these, uh, that the concept of mental immunity, of some, some sort of mental immune system, but, like, what, what kind of mental immune system are you talking about? Are you talking about meditation? Are you talking about, uh, a specific way of addressing issues and problems, and how do you factor in things like emotions?

   6. ANAndy Norman8:17

      Yeah. So let, let me start simple with a little thought experiment. Maybe you can-

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:21

      Okay.

   8. ANAndy Norman8:21

      ... play along with me here, so th- it's kind of a story. So imagine we are, uh, sitting around a bonfire, tossing back a few beers.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:30

      Okay.

   10. ANAndy Norman8:31

       And I say, "Hey, Joe, reach into the fire there. Grab me one of those hot coals and hand it to me."

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:35

       (laughs)

   12. ANAndy Norman8:36

       What do you say?

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:38

       I say, "I'm not really interested in doing that, Andy."

   14. ANAndy Norman8:40

       (laughs) Okay, good.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:41

       (laughs)

   16. ANAndy Norman8:41

       And, and what g- what, what go- what went on in your head that made you say that?

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:46

       Uh, it seems like I'd get injured doing that.

   18. ANAndy Norman8:48

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:49

       Yeah.

   20. ANAndy Norman8:49

       So, so you ran a little simulation in your mind, and you concluded that that would be harmful.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:55

       Yes.

   22. ANAndy Norman8:55

       Right. That was your mind's immune system at work, that simulation run. So basically, I was serving up an idea-

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       Mm-hmm.

   24. ANAndy Norman9:01

       ... a suggestion. "Hey, Joe, do this for me." You ran a little simulation in your mind. You identified that idea as a bad one. You sp- your mind's immune system was strong enough and well-functioning enough to spot this bad idea, and you came out, "Fuck you, Andy. Reach into the fire and get- get your-"

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:18

       No, I didn't come-

   26. ANAndy Norman9:19

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:19

       ... kill that hard, Andy.

   28. ANAndy Norman9:21

       That's true.

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:21

       (laughs)

   30. ANAndy Norman9:22

       I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to speak your-
4. 10:21 – 14:18

   Conspiracy thinking as a mental autoimmune disorder

   1. ANAndy Norman10:21

      So let me tell you a second story. So-

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:23

      Okay.

   3. ANAndy Norman10:23

      ... our first example there was a, uh, of your mi- mental immune system functioning properly-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:29

      Right.

   5. ANAndy Norman10:29

      ... to spot a bad idea and say, "Nope, you're not welcome here." Right?

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:33

      Right.

   7. ANAndy Norman10:33

      Um, now let's take an example of a mental immune s- system misfiring.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:37

      Okay.

   9. ANAndy Norman10:38

      All right. So, um, this is a story about Fred the flat-Earther. So Fred dies. He goes to heaven. Saint Peter meets him at the pearly gates. He says, "Come on in, Fred. You're our lucky customer number 100. You get a chance to chat with God."

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:52

       Oh.

   11. ANAndy Norman10:53

       So Fred marches right in to God's inner sanctum and says, uh, "So God, I've been a conspiracy theorist my whole life, a flat-Earther my whole life. I gotta know, is the world s- flat or is it round?" God shakes his head, does a face palm, and says, "I'm sorry to say, Fred, but the world is very round." Fred's face registers shock and then recognition, and he said, "This conspiracy theory goes higher than I thought."

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       (laughs)

   13. ANAndy Norman11:21

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:25

       That's probably exactly what they would do too.

   15. ANAndy Norman11:27

       Well, and, and, and-

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       Especially flat-Earthers.

   17. ANAndy Norman11:29

       And t- well, and what does this joke tell us about the conspiracy mentality?

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:35

       Hmm.

   19. ANAndy Norman11:35

       Right? And you say that's exactly what it would do because I think you understand something about conspiracy thinking, which is that a conspiracy theory-infected mind becomes so good at generating antibodies to fight back against even good information-

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Hmm.

   21. ANAndy Norman11:53

       ... that it'll, that those antibodies will attack the good information. So here's God telling you the truth, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:57

       Right.

   23. ANAndy Norman11:58

       And your mind, and Fr- and Fred's an- mental antibodies just rush in and, and dismiss it as part of a-... even deeper conspiracy.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:06

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ANAndy Norman12:07

       That, that's... So, so questions, doubts, suspicions, those are the mind, the mind's antibodies, all right?

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:14

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ANAndy Norman12:15

       And they can go nuts. They can, they can be, go on hyperactive, um... In the same way that the body's immune system can go haywire and attack your, your body itself-

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Mm-hmm.

   29. ANAndy Norman12:26

       ... your mind's immune system can go haywire, and your questions and your doubts and your suspicions can attack your mind.

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       Mm. Um, I think one of the problems with, uh, conspiracy theories and people that believe, uh, foolish things is that they don't really seek the truth. They seek something that confirms what they want to be true.
5. 14:18 – 21:21

   Astrology, pattern-seeking brains, and wishful thinking that weakens immunity

   1. ANAndy Norman14:18

      Is that true?

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:18

      ... he believes astrology's real. (clears throat) Not just he believes astrology's real, but he believes that, like, he doesn't travel unless he, he checks the ... with his astrologist and he do- he cancels trips to the astro-

   3. ANAndy Norman14:29

      See...

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:29

      It's so sad.

   5. ANAndy Norman14:30

      That... It really is, right? I mean...

   6. JRJoe Rogan14:31

      So I was telling him, I'm like, "Come... Listen, man. This is nonsense." Like, what are you... The idea that there's a l- an alignment of the stars that can be accurately assessed and that'll determine whether or not this will be a successful trip or a dangerous trip is so fucking stupid.

   7. ANAndy Norman14:47

      Yeah, it is.

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:47

      And wouldn't you be way better off and much more successful if you knew this information and you were actually applying it to your life? Uh, d- aren't you disappointed in the results so far? Like...

   9. ANAndy Norman14:56

      And did, did that break through for him?

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:57

       It did not. He actually s- this is one of... why I brought this up, 'cause he sent me a website-

   11. ANAndy Norman15:02

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:02

       ... of this guy who he goes to that's an astrologer.

   13. ANAndy Norman15:04

       Astrologer, okay.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:05

       And it was the dumbest fucking website.

   15. ANAndy Norman15:07

       Oh, that is sad.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:08

       And in the website it was actually talking about how this guy, like, had some other career and it didn't work out well for him, and then he found astrology and realized this is his calling, and...

   17. ANAndy Norman15:16

       Uh, uh, m- you might try this on your friend.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:19

       I'm not trying shit.

   19. ANAndy Norman15:21

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:21

       But go ahead.

   21. ANAndy Norman15:22

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       (laughs)

   23. ANAndy Norman15:23

       So there was a time in the history of the West when astrology made a certain amount of sense. So, so back when, uh, philosophers and theologians thought the Earth was at the center of the center-

   24. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Mm.

   25. ANAndy Norman15:34

       ... uh, center of the u- of the universe, and that all of the stars and the planets r- revolved around it, the stars were thought and the planets were thought to live in crystalline spheres that rubbed against one another. So the idea that the position of the stars could, through the rubbing of j- adjacent spheres, work its way down and affect things here on Earth kind of made a certain amount of sense 'cause there was a causal story-

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ANAndy Norman15:59

       ... like the position of the stars and fa- the fates down here on Earth. But then, of course, Copernicus came along, turned the solar system inside out. We learned that space is not full of crystalline spheres, but empty space. And then, and ever since astrology has just been silly.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       Would you mind pulling this just a little bit closer to your face like I'm, got there?

   29. ANAndy Norman16:20

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       Yeah, you're very soft-spoken.
6. 21:21 – 32:39

   Practical tools: humility, fair-mindedness, and not weaponizing reasons

   1. ANAndy Norman21:21

      Well, I try, I try not to think that I have all the answers and that I've, uh, you know, got it all figured out. Um, look at humility, we know this, humility is really important-

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:30

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ANAndy Norman21:30

      ... for, for a well-functioning mental immune system.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:32

      For everything, right?

   5. ANAndy Norman21:33

      Well, yeah, yeah, sure. Let's go, let's go with that. My, my, m- my research in- specializes in, you know, trying to understand how the mind, it develops resistance to bad ideas. Um, and once you think you have all the answers, you stop learning and your thinking starts to go haywire.

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:51

      Mm.

   7. ANAndy Norman21:51

      So you gotta maintain that humility or, you know, you're just, you, you, you're compromising your own mind.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:00

      Humility, specifically.

   9. ANAndy Norman22:02

      Humility is important, fair-mindedness. Like, so, so if, so a lot of people do this, they, they, um, they ridicule or deride other people's ideas-

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:11

       Mm.

   11. ANAndy Norman22:12

       ... for failing to meet basic standards, but then they don't apply the s- those same standards to their own views.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:16

       Right. Like, do you have an example of this?

   13. ANAndy Norman22:18

       Um, sure. Um, well, well, I think a whole lot of political, uh, rhetoric has this character, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:31

       Mm.

   15. ANAndy Norman22:32

       Slam the other side, um, ridicule it as, as a sloppy thinking or as ideologically driven, but never examine to see whether your own views.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       That's a perfect example of it, right? And politics is probably the very best example of how people do this. They get super tribal. They only look at-

   17. ANAndy Norman22:52

       Exactly.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:52

       ... the, the other side as being bad and their side, they find justifications for every questionable behavior, every weird scandal, every, you know, everything that doesn't fit the narrative.

   19. ANAndy Norman23:03

       Yeah. And, and I'd say that politics is probably the best example, but religion and ethics, um, and sometimes-

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:09

       Mm.

   21. ANAndy Norman23:09

       ... economics or others. So wherever values come into play, people get very attached to their ideas because we all want to think that our- that we're, we're right and true and virtuous, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:20

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ANAndy Norman23:21

       So whatever ideas w- we've already internalized as beliefs, they have to be the virtuous beliefs. And any new incoming information that challenges them from the other side of the political aisle or from another religion or from those damn atheists over there, that's the enemy. And then your mind's immune system attacks that information and you never become, and you never gain the fair mindedness needed to learn.

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:44

       Have you ever had a sit down in a, like a long form discussion with someone who does believe some wacky stuff?

   25. ANAndy Norman23:51

       So I actually facilitate difficult conversations with people across the political spectrum, across the religious spectrum every week, um, at my university. So that, that's my day job. Um...

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:03

       And you facilitate this how? So you invite them in?

   27. ANAndy Norman24:06

       ... uh, well, there's a core group of students at Carnegie Mellon, where I, where I've worked for many years, uh, that meets regularly to discuss issues that we just pick as, um, they might have to do with contemporary political phenomena, might have to do with, uh, uh, religion or culture wars, or, um, you know, controversial economic theories. And we just... We invite people in from the local church. Uh, we invite people in from the Christian Fellowship, and we dialogue. We, we actually practice the art of having, uh, fair, open-minded dialogue to... in, in an attempt to learn from one another. So, so we, uh, we don't always hit the sweet spot, but we, but we try. And we think that practicing the art of difficult conversation and testing ideas in a mutually respectful way is the key to overcoming this... these divisions that are-

   28. JRJoe Rogan25:03

       It's helped me tremendously to talk to people that have different ideas than I do. Over the years, I've, I've been doing this podcast.

   29. ANAndy Norman25:09

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:09

       Uh, I think early on, I was w- way more argumentative. I just wasn't very good at it.
7. 32:39 – 53:22

   Real conspiracies vs conspiracy theories: JFK, QAnon, and the seduction of rabbit holes

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:39

      I think there's also a problem with some of these ideas, and especially when you take into account confirmation bias, that a lot of conspiracies are not binary. It's not like there, there's no conspiracies.

   2. ANAndy Norman32:52

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:52

      This is part of the problem. Like Enron.

   4. ANAndy Norman32:54

      Correct.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:54

      Classic example. A legitimate, real conspiracy-

   6. ANAndy Norman32:59

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:59

      ... that was facilitated by multiple individuals for extreme amounts of profit and was a real thing.

   8. ANAndy Norman33:07

      Pe- people do conspire.

   9. JRJoe Rogan33:08

      Yeah, they do.

   10. ANAndy Norman33:09

       It, it happens.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       It's a real act. It's not like it's impossible.

   12. ANAndy Norman33:12

       It, it ... Right, exactly.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:13

       Yeah.

   14. ANAndy Norman33:13

       And, and it's ... And the, the term conspiracy theory is almost tr- poorly chosen in a way.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:17

       When was that developed? There's the, uh, there's-

   16. ANAndy Norman33:20

       Conspiracy theory?

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       ... there's a history to the term conspiracy theory that started getting developed to dismiss ... I forget what the ... There was a story that was in the news that they were trying ... J- Jamie, I'm sure, will pull it up. But it became a narrative.

   18. ANAndy Norman33:35

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:35

       It became, oh, they're a conspiracy theorist.

   20. ANAndy Norman33:37

       Just like the JFK assassination-

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:39

       Might have been that.

   22. ANAndy Norman33:40

       ... or something like that?

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       Might have been that. I think you're correct.

   24. ANAndy Norman33:42

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:43

       But then, that's one that like, woof. You go down the rabbit hole on the JFK assassination?

   26. ANAndy Norman33:47

       I- I- I don't, you know-

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:47

       You ever done that?

   28. ANAndy Norman33:48

       ... I have been down the-

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:49

       Yeah?

   30. ANAndy Norman33:49

       ... that rabbit hole.
8. 53:22 – 1:04:02

   Cognitive accountability vs censorship: free speech, platform power, and overreach

   1. ANAndy Norman53:22

      Hey, can I, can I bring you back to this accountability thing?

   2. JRJoe Rogan53:25

      Yes, yes, yes, please.

   3. ANAndy Norman53:25

      So, um, uh, I'm a liberal who also ch- values accountability.

   4. JRJoe Rogan53:30

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ANAndy Norman53:31

      Um, and the- most of the liberals I know also care a lot about accountability. Turns out there's an idea at loose in our culture that undermines cognitive accountability, and it's this idea that almost all of us have been brought up with, which is everyone is entitled to their opinion.

   6. JRJoe Rogan53:49

      Hmm.

   7. ANAndy Norman53:50

      So I actually call this idea a mental immune disruptor, and here's why. So imagine growing up ... So what happens when a kid grows up in a, uh, entitled? Becomes spoiled, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan54:02

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ANAndy Norman54:03

      So e- entitled kids start to just assume they're entitled to everything, right? You grow up in a culture that says you're entitled to whatever, to think whatever you damn please. You become, uh, kind of ... You develop an enti- uh, an attitude of entitlement towards belief. And then when somebody comes along and says, "Yeah, but that's really not a responsible way to think about things. Check out all this evidence." They go, "I'm entitled to my belief. Go away."

   10. JRJoe Rogan54:28

       Hmm.

   11. ANAndy Norman54:29

       Right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan54:30

       Yeah.

   13. ANAndy Norman54:30

       This idea has wide currency in our culture and it shut- and it serves to shut down thinking.And it's one of the things that has weakened our mental immune systems because, yes, our cognitive rights matter, um, and no, the b- and government shouldn't be telling us what we're entitled to, to believe. I, I, uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan54:49

       Right.

   15. ANAndy Norman54:51

       ... t- t- t- um, to the extent that we're entitled to our opinion is a claim about our political rights, fine. But when we misinterpret it as a claim about what we're morally entitled to believe and think and say, then you've crossed a line because I'm not morally entitled to misogynistic delusions and white conspiracist fantasies, and, and neither are you.

   16. JRJoe Rogan55:15

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ANAndy Norman55:16

       Does that make sense?

   18. JRJoe Rogan55:16

       Yes, it does.

   19. ANAndy Norman55:18

       So, we need to get rid of this idea that we're all entitled to believe whatever we damn please.

   20. JRJoe Rogan55:22

       Right.

   21. ANAndy Norman55:22

       We have rights in the way of thinking, but we also have responsibilities, and we gotta bring them back into balance because-

   22. JRJoe Rogan55:28

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ANAndy Norman55:28

       ... right now, we live in a culture that tells us we can all indulge in crazy-ass thinking if we want, and, and we're not being called back towards our cognitive responsibility.

   24. JRJoe Rogan55:37

       I think you're making some very good points.

   25. ANAndy Norman55:39

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan55:40

       But the problem is, uh, those points, there's a justification for denying people the opportunity to express bad ideas, and that's where things get slippery.

   27. ANAndy Norman55:52

       With the c- thought police. You don't wanna-

   28. JRJoe Rogan55:53

       Yes.

   29. ANAndy Norman55:54

       ... invite, invite thought police into it. But-

   30. JRJoe Rogan55:55

       Because even though you're pr- you're right about a lot of these things, particularly, like, white supremacy and a lot of these other, uh, uh, like, QAnon-type things-
9. 1:04:02 – 1:13:23

   Weaponized social media: bots, anonymity, algorithms, and accountability

   1. ANAndy Norman1:04:02

      So- so, uh, I- I'm happy to accept that as an example of overreach, and I wonder if there isn't also underreach.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:10

      Okay.

   3. ANAndy Norman1:04:11

      So, if- so you're in charge of Facebook.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:13

      Okay.

   5. ANAndy Norman1:04:13

      And you've just learned that the Trump campaign has weaponized Facebook to hijack an election.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:20

      How'd they do that?

   7. ANAndy Norman1:04:21

      Well, through Cambridge Analytica and thousands of Russian, uh, Facebook sites that have been-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ANAndy Norman1:04:28

      ... spreading mis- spreading misinformation.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:04:30

       The Internet Research Agency in Russia, that kind of deal?

   11. ANAndy Norman1:04:32

       Y- yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:04:32

       Right.

   13. ANAndy Norman1:04:33

       But, uh, I- I know, you know, some of the news stories on this.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:04:36

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ANAndy Norman1:04:36

       Um, we're- you- we're coming down, down the ...

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:04:40

       Home stretch.

   17. ANAndy Norman1:04:40

       The home stretch towards the election, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:42

       Right.

   19. ANAndy Norman1:04:42

       And, uh, you- you're Mark Zuckerberg and you're realizing that somebody's weaponizing your platform to steal an election or win an election. Um, what do you do?

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

       Uh, well, I think that if you can find out that there are like, um ... Are you familiar with Renee DiResta's work?

   21. ANAndy Norman1:05:03

       Mm-mm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:04

       Renee DiResta, uh, she did an analysis, a deep dive on the Internet Research Agency and all the various fake sites that they have. Fake pages, fake Instagram, fake Facebook, and all the different ways that they've manipulated discourse in this country.

   23. ANAndy Norman1:05:20

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:20

       And it's really fascinating.

   25. ANAndy Norman1:05:21

       Mm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:05:21

       Um, they've created hundreds of thousands of memes.

   27. ANAndy Norman1:05:24

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

       She said some of them were very funny. And they also organized events, and they organized events right next to other events that they organized that had opposing viewpoints.

   29. ANAndy Norman1:05:36

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:05:36

       Like, they had, uh, some pro-Muslim event that was across the street from a Texas separatism event.
10. 1:13:23 – 1:29:25

    Demand-side “herd immunity”: building a culture of idea testing (religion, education, and upbringing)

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:13:23

       It does. It does, but I think for many people, they don't know how to start. Like, how... Like, maybe you're, maybe you're listening to this right now, and maybe you have had moments in your life where you've just been hijacked by stupid ideas, and you don't know, uh, exactly what to do. Like, I have a friend, I've talked about her before on the podcast, she used to be a Mormon-

    2. ANAndy Norman1:13:44

       Hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:13:44

       ... and, uh, all her life, and then one day, she snapped out of it, and they left the church, and the whole deal.

    4. ANAndy Norman1:13:50

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:13:50

       And she had a very interesting point. She said... she finds herself to be very susceptible to, like, bullshit-

    6. ANAndy Norman1:14:01

       Yes.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:14:01

       ... because she believed in things without questioning them her whole life-

    8. ANAndy Norman1:14:07

       Yes.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:14:07

       ... until she was, like, in her 40s. So, like, all a sudden, she finds herself now trying to navigate the waters of reality without a, like, a rock solid belief system-

    10. ANAndy Norman1:14:18

        Wow.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:14:18

        ... that she can fall back on.

    12. ANAndy Norman1:14:19

        Wow.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:14:20

        It was, yeah, it was a big wow because-

    14. ANAndy Norman1:14:21

        That's a poignant story.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:14:22

        ... because she's a very smart person, and she lived a kind of a dull-minded life-

    16. ANAndy Norman1:14:29

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:14:29

        ... when she was just believing whole... you know, p- p- part and parcel whatever the Mormon ideology was. Like, she was locked in.

    18. ANAndy Norman1:14:38

        Right.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:14:38

        That's what she... You know, she's definitely gonna get a planet when she dies and-

    20. ANAndy Norman1:14:41

        (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:14:41

        ... everything's gonna be awesome, and I'm... I'm gonna wear these magic underwear, and Jesus is looking out for me.

    22. ANAndy Norman1:14:46

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:14:46

        We're all good. I mean, that was her thought process, and now she's not like that at all. So, she had to, like, sort of recognize that she had some real flaws in-

    24. ANAndy Norman1:14:54

        Right.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:14:54

        ... the way she looks at reality itself-

    26. ANAndy Norman1:14:57

        Right.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:14:57

        ... because she's susceptible.

    28. ANAndy Norman1:14:59

        That story is so much like, uh, a story... So I, I once got a call as a philosophy professor, a woman called me, and she basically said, "I was brought up in a deeply fundamentalist Christian sect, and I was taught about hell, and I've lived my entire life just scared as shit that I'm gonna be sent to hell."

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:15:17

        Hmm.

    30. ANAndy Norman1:15:18

        "And then... But my college professors, they're actually encouraging me to think for myself, but whenever I actually start to think critically about God's existence, I'm seized by this kind of panic." And she said, "Even though I know hell is an illusion, I know that hell is just a... an idea that was created to, to control behavior of children," and he, she said, "Even though I've outgrown those ideas, I still can't stop the sense of panic."

Episode duration: 3:16:44