Joe Rogan Experience #1653 - Andy Norman

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. ANAndy Norman0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Hello, Andy.

   5. ANAndy Norman0:16

      Hey, Joe.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Nice to meet you, man. Thank you very much for coming here, and thank you for bringing me a signed copy of your book, Mental Immunity: Infectious Ideas, Mind Parasites, and the Search for a Better Way to Think. Boy, could we all use this.

   7. ANAndy Norman0:28

      (laughs) Thank you.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      Forwarded by the great and powerful Steven Pinker.

   9. ANAndy Norman0:31

      Yeah. I was a lucky guy to get that.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       That's very nice. That is very nice. Um, boy, but we could all use that, right? This-

   11. ANAndy Norman0:38

       Totally.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       It feels like the last year has been incredibly taxing.

   13. ANAndy Norman0:43

       Sounds like you get the be- basic premise. Mind parasites are spreading over the internet like crazy-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:48

       Yeah.

   15. ANAndy Norman0:48

       ... and we need protection against them. We need resistance.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       What, what do you, how do you define mind parasites? Like, we were actually talking before the podcast started, and, um, we were talking about a few things, and I was like, "We gotta stop. We gotta stop talking, 'cause I don't wanna waste any of this."

   17. ANAndy Norman1:01

       (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       But one of 'em we were talking about was UFOs, and now, uh, until recently, over the last few years, I would have put that in the mind parasite category.

   19. ANAndy Norman1:09

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       I would have said most of that's nonsense.

   21. ANAndy Norman1:11

       But new information has changed your, your view on it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       Yeah. Yeah, it has. Uh, there was a big 60 Minutes piece last night that aired and, uh, talking to Christopher Mellon, who used to work for the Defense Department, talking to Commander David Fravor, who is the guy who piloted that jet that I was telling you about that encountered that craft off of the coast of San Diego in 2004. There's been-

   23. ANAndy Norman1:31

       Yep.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       ... quite a few of these pretty spectacular videos that have come out that were released by the, uh ... Well, I don't know. Some of them were leaked and then confirmed by the Pentagon, and-

   25. ANAndy Norman1:41

       Well, that's the kinda evidence that should change your attitude from-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Right.

   27. ANAndy Norman1:45

       ... skeptical to, you know, hey, maybe there's something here, right? I, I mean, I think, um ... I mean, you've already indicated that you get the basic premise-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:54

       Yeah.

   29. ANAndy Norman1:54

       ... one of the basic premises of the book, right? Falsehoods are mind parasites.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       Mm.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      brought this up, 'cause he sent me a website-

   2. ANAndy Norman15:02

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:02

      ... of this guy who he goes to that's an astrologer.

   4. ANAndy Norman15:04

      Astrologer, okay.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      And it was the dumbest fucking website.

   6. ANAndy Norman15:07

      Oh, that is sad.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      And in the website it was actually talking about how this guy, like, had some other career and it didn't work out well for him, and then he found astrology and realized this is his calling, and...

   8. ANAndy Norman15:16

      Uh, uh, m- you might try this on your friend.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      I'm not trying shit.

   10. ANAndy Norman15:21

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:21

       But go ahead.

   12. ANAndy Norman15:22

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       (laughs)

   14. ANAndy Norman15:23

       So there was a time in the history of the West when astrology made a certain amount of sense. So, so back when, uh, philosophers and theologians thought the Earth was at the center of the center-

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       Mm.

   16. ANAndy Norman15:34

       ... uh, center of the u- of the universe, and that all of the stars and the planets r- revolved around it, the stars were thought and the planets were thought to live in crystalline spheres that rubbed against one another. So the idea that the position of the stars could, through the rubbing of j- adjacent spheres, work its way down and affect things here on Earth kind of made a certain amount of sense 'cause there was a causal story-

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ANAndy Norman15:59

       ... like the position of the stars and fa- the fates down here on Earth. But then, of course, Copernicus came along, turned the solar system inside out. We learned that space is not full of crystalline spheres, but empty space. And then, and ever since astrology has just been silly.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       Would you mind pulling this just a little bit closer to your face like I'm, got there?

   20. ANAndy Norman16:20

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       Yeah, you're very soft-spoken.

   22. ANAndy Norman16:21

       Sorry.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       So', no, no. Don't apologize, please.

   24. ANAndy Norman16:23

       All right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       I think astrology's interesting. I should clarify. It's interesting in that there are these constellations and it's interesting is that people have been studying these and they're, been looking at Orion and, you know, what, Cancer and all these different-

   26. ANAndy Norman16:36

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:36

       ... you know, looking at all these different things and these images that they see in the sky and that they've been... You know, people look for patterns. They've always looked for patterns in things.

   28. ANAndy Norman16:44

       And we know this about our brains-

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       Yeah.

   30. ANAndy Norman16:46

       ... is that they're pattern recognition engines that generate many m- false positives.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah.In my past of,…

   1. ANAndy Norman30:00

      your beliefs as long as they're, you know, working for you, but always check to make sure that they're not serving you poorly. Because when they do, may be time to say sayonara.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:10

      Yeah.In my past of, uh, the more embarrassing moments was when I've become personally invested in ideas and will argue with them, argue for them with emotion and, and use tactics and talk over people, shout people down, like that kind of stuff. It's one of the more em- embarrassing things, when I think about my own belief system when I was younger, as, in particular, that, that I would just, I would want to win, right?

   3. ANAndy Norman30:35

      Oh, can I, can I build on that?

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:36

      Yeah.

   5. ANAndy Norman30:37

      'Cause, 'cause that's beautiful. Um, wha- i- this is one of the things I conclude, concluded from having studied the mind's immune system. Um, when you start using reasons as weapons, you're actually subverting your mind's immune system. So, uh, when culture wars break out, people start grabbing onto reasons and using them to club people on the other side.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:03

      Hmm.

   7. ANAndy Norman31:03

      Or, or, or they use them as shields to try to protect them from the attacks on the other side. But it turns out that you be- it, it becomes ... You lose the ability to be fair-minded when you start treating reasons that way, and the alternative is to always check that you're using reasons to guide people's attention to genuinely relevant considerations, to honestly relevant considerations. If you're doing that, your mi- your mind's immune system is functioning properly. But if you're just e- wielding reasons as weapons to win, you're fucking with yourself as well as with the other guy.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:39

      Wielding reasons as weapons to win. That's beautiful. I like that.

   9. ANAndy Norman31:42

      D- don't do it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:43

       Yeah.

   11. ANAndy Norman31:44

       You want, you wanna, you wanna heal your mind's immune system? Pay attention to whether you're using reasons that way.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:50

       Yeah.

   13. ANAndy Norman31:51

       And, and, and if you find you are, cut it out.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:53

       Yeah, and I really think that it does ... You, you have to recognize it as an actual strength to be able to abandon your ideas.

   15. ANAndy Norman31:59

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       It's a strength. It's not a weakness. It's not weak that you were incorrect.

   17. ANAndy Norman32:04

       Beautiful.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:04

       They're just ideas.

   19. ANAndy Norman32:06

       And, and, uh, one of the key ideas in my book is just that, uh, if, when we're willing to yield to better reasons, tha- that's the mark of wisdom.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:16

       Hmm.

   21. ANAndy Norman32:17

       Always be ready to yield to better reasons. So, so you might have a bunch of reasons why you believe some things, and maybe the reasons on the other side are, are, aren't enough to dislodge them. Pay attention to them anyway, because they m- eventually might accumulate to the point that would tip the scales, and if you're not ready and open to that happening, uh, you're gonna remain stuck where you are and unable to grow.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:39

       I think there's also a problem with some of these ideas, and especially when you take into account confirmation bias, that a lot of conspiracies are not binary. It's not like there, there's no conspiracies.

   23. ANAndy Norman32:52

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       This is part of the problem. Like Enron.

   25. ANAndy Norman32:54

       Correct.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       Classic example. A legitimate, real conspiracy-

   27. ANAndy Norman32:59

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:59

       ... that was facilitated by multiple individuals for extreme amounts of profit and was a real thing.

   29. ANAndy Norman33:07

       Pe- people do conspire.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       Yeah, they do.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. ANAndy Norman45:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      Yeah.

   3. ANAndy Norman45:00

      ... the claim and make sure that you can wi- that the claim can withstand ... Or the belief, or the idea, or the claim, make sure it can withstand questioning.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:09

      Mm.

   5. ANAndy Norman45:09

      And good questioning.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      Good questioning. Scrutiny.

   7. ANAndy Norman45:12

      Scrutiny, right. So-

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      Yeah.

   9. ANAndy Norman45:13

      So, this takes us back to a ... An ancient concept of reasonableness that predates Plato, one of my philosophical heroes. Socrates basically, um, questioned things, and if they didn't withstand questioning, if it didn't withstand scrutiny, he'd say, "That can't be right. Chuck it."

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:32

       Mm.

   11. ANAndy Norman45:33

       And he was right. Um, we need to bring back the Socratic picture of reasonable belief because it's one of the most powerful mind inoculants ever invented. We've forgotten how to use it in our time, but we can take this new science, cognitive immunology, we can enhance the Socratic method, and achieve levels of immunity against cognitive contagion that our species has never had.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       Isn't one of the impediments to cognitive immunity just ideology in and of itself? Like, as you were saying earlier, that your friends on the left would get upset at you saying that you tend to lean towards a conspiracy theory for the killing of JFK.

   13. ANAndy Norman46:15

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:15

       They're like, "Well, why? Why?" Like, why would it be the friends on the left, and why would you even consider the friends on the left? Well, because you and I are in a group. We're in a group-

   15. ANAndy Norman46:25

       Yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       ... called Liberals.

   17. ANAndy Norman46:27

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:27

       Yeah.

   19. ANAndy Norman46:28

       Yeah, so we know this about thinking, which is that we're h- We're a highly tribal-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Right.

   21. ANAndy Norman46:33

       ... ani- animal.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       Yeah.

   23. ANAndy Norman46:34

       And we, we will gravitate towards ideas that, uh, keep us in good standing with the people close to us. And we'll turn with hate and derision on ideas that threaten our little communities of support.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:49

       Yes.

   25. ANAndy Norman46:50

       Um, and this tends to fuck with our, with our thinking in all kinds of ways.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       Yeah.

   27. ANAndy Norman46:54

       And ... So you actually have to work to overcome tribalism to become a clear and fair-minded thinker.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:01

       Yes. It's very important. And what's interesting is like, even if you have like ... I belong to a group called Liberal because I ascribe to a series of beliefs that are in that group. Like-

   29. ANAndy Norman47:14

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:15

       ... you know, women's rights, gay rights, civil rights. Um, I believe in climate change, I believe in ... Uh, I bel- ... I have a lot of, like, things that, uh, th- They might not even be good ideas.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Right. …

   1. ANAndy Norman1:00:00

      to m- to mitigate the spread of falsehoods isn't always fast enough to prevent the harm.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:07

      Right.

   3. ANAndy Norman1:00:08

      Which makes the solution you and I both favor, let's talk it out, a good one, but not always the one that acts fast enough.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

      The problem is, though, the, uh, alternative is censorship, and censorship is power. To have that ab- that power, and then who is doing the censorship? Then you have-

   5. ANAndy Norman1:00:26

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

      ... the, another real problem 'cause you have, like, Twitter, you have their Trust and Safety Council, so you have a bunch of people, a lot of them fresh out of universities-

   7. ANAndy Norman1:00:34

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

      ... that really don't have a lot of life experience and maybe have some very rigid ideologies of their own. And they wanna enforce those, and they come up with reasons to censor people, reasons to delete posts, reasons to silence and suspend people temporarily for things that they deem to be inaccurate. In fact, a Harvard epidemiologist was recently suspended from Twitter because he said that...... these masks do not provide the kind of protection that people thought they did with COVID-19, and that so many people were getting too close and- and they were not socially distancing because they felt like these masks gave them more protection than they really did.

   9. ANAndy Norman1:01:18

      Interesting.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

       And that they were catching COVID-19 because of that. So, this man is not a mask denier. He's not a-

   11. ANAndy Norman1:01:24

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       ... he's not a- he's an epidemiologist, but-

   13. ANAndy Norman1:01:25

       Yeah, he knows his- he knows his shit.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       ... Twitter suspended him for saying this.

   15. ANAndy Norman1:01:29

       And that clearly seems wrong.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:31

       Exactly. It's- it is clearly wrong because we all know that there's a lot of these masks where you've got these gaps on the side.

   17. ANAndy Norman1:01:38

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       Now, if you- you're- you're breathing air, right? And COVID particles ... I think- I do absolutely believe that masks provide protection. How much protection, I don't think has been established.

   19. ANAndy Norman1:01:49

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       And the masks vary wildly.

   21. ANAndy Norman1:01:52

       Well-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:52

       Like some people just have bandanas on, which I think do very little. Some people have N95 masks that are very form-fitted to their faces.

   23. ANAndy Norman1:01:59

       Right. A lot.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:59

       I think those do much more. And clearly, if you look at the flu season this year, it's way less than ever before.

   25. ANAndy Norman1:02:07

       That's right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

       Colds, way less than ever before.

   27. ANAndy Norman1:02:08

       Which shows that masks do reduce transmission.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       Something's going on, whether it's that or the fact that people are staying away from each other a little bit more than they have in the past. But what this Harvard epidemiologist was saying was that he believes that they don't work enough to allow people to be around infected people.

   29. ANAndy Norman1:02:28

       Oh, okay.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:28

       And that this idea that you and I could talk really close to each other if one of us was infected 'cause we were both wearing masks, he's like, "That's not true."
6. 1:15:00 – 1:19:13

   Hmm. …

   1. ANAndy Norman1:15:00

      much like, uh, a story... So I, I once got a call as a philosophy professor, a woman called me, and she basically said, "I was brought up in a deeply fundamentalist Christian sect, and I was taught about hell, and I've lived my entire life just scared as shit that I'm gonna be sent to hell."

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:17

      Hmm.

   3. ANAndy Norman1:15:18

      "And then... But my college professors, they're actually encouraging me to think for myself, but whenever I actually start to think critically about God's existence, I'm seized by this kind of panic." And she said, "Even though I know hell is an illusion, I know that hell is just a... an idea that was created to, to control behavior of children," and he, she said, "Even though I've outgrown those ideas, I still can't stop the sense of panic."

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:47

      Hmm.

   5. ANAndy Norman1:15:48

      This poor woman, her mental immune system had, had been crippled by her upbringing.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:54

      Hmm.

   7. ANAndy Norman1:15:56

      Right? Something in the way she was brought up, her fundamentalist training, had actually made it so that she was seized by irrational fear, um, when she tried to think for herself.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:16:09

      That's wild. It's like, you can't stray from the path, or demons are waiting for you.

   9. ANAndy Norman1:16:15

      Exactly.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:16:16

       Yeah, and when you grow up with that thought, that that's what's on the other side, is just demons, and hell, and Satan, Satan's tempting you...

   11. ANAndy Norman1:16:25

       Y- Y- I mean, good luck becoming a... an independent thinker, right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:16:28

       Yeah.

   13. ANAndy Norman1:16:28

       With that kind... I mean, this makes you... it raises some really tough questions. You know, should, should everyone be allowed to raise their children into any religion they want, no matter how crazy? I mean, I mean, it's not a... it's not a crazy question to ask. I mean, it, it might sound like I'm, I'm, uh, itching to become a thought police here. I'm, I'm not.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:16:49

       The problem with what you're saying is-

   15. ANAndy Norman1:16:50

       Hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:16:51

       ... all of it's crazy.

   17. ANAndy Norman1:16:53

       All of what?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:16:54

       All of religion's crazy.

   19. ANAndy Norman1:16:56

       You won't get any argument from me?

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:16:58

       You will find crazy, if you look, and it's the same problem with censorship itself, because if you decide you're gonna censor the really fucking nutty ideas, then what about the kinda nutty ideas? What about, uh, oh, astrology's bullshit. Let's censor the astrology page. Oh, chiropractors. Do you know the history of chiropractors? Well, that's bullshit too.

   21. ANAndy Norman1:17:19

       Well-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:17:20

       And then you start going down the line. Oh, psychics. No one's fucking psychic, you fraud. And then next thing you know-

   23. ANAndy Norman1:17:26

       No, well-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:26

       ... you're censoring everything.

   25. ANAndy Norman1:17:27

       Well, fair enough, but, but remember, I'm not calling for censorship.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:17:30

       What are you doing?

   27. ANAndy Norman1:17:30

       I'm, uh, I'm calling for the r- for building a culture where idea testing is so normalized-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:17:39

       Hmm.

   29. ANAndy Norman1:17:40

       ... that we don't need to censor anyone to become... to, to have herd immunity to crazy cognitive... to, to mind virus.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:17:51

       The problem is, some people, religion is a fundamental principle that allows them to live their lives with, like, structure. They have, like, a... it's a scaffolding for their morals and their ethics-

Episode duration: 3:16:44