Joe Rogan Experience #1655 - Sebastian Junger

1. 0:00 – 2:38

   Sebastian Junger’s sudden pancreatic aneurysm and near-death spiral

   1. SJSebastian Junger0:00

      (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. SJSebastian Junger0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you, man. How are you?

   5. SJSebastian Junger0:16

      Uh, really good. Very good to see you too.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Yeah, I see you're, uh, very prepared. Look at all these, uh-

   7. SJSebastian Junger0:21

      Yeah, look at all those notes on those notecards. Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Yeah. Serious stuff.

   9. SJSebastian Junger0:25

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       We were talking before. This, there's so much to, to talk about, but we were talking before and you were saying that, uh, over the last year you almost died because you had some crazy internal an-, uh, you had an aneurysm in your pancreas. Is that what you said it was?

   11. SJSebastian Junger0:40

       Yeah. I had an undiagnosed asymptomatic aneurysm, which is a sort of ballooning in the blood vessel, uh, in the artery, in my pancreatic artery. And out of the blue, it was a congenital thing. Like, I'd apparently developed during my whole life. It, um, it was just from a structural problem. And, uh, in one afternoon, one beautiful June afternoon last year, it burst. And, um, you know, I just felt this pain shoot through my stomach. I was like, "Damn, what is that?" And within a few minutes, I couldn't stand up and within about 10 minutes, I was starting to go blind. And my wife called the, the ambulance and, um, those guys got there and, and, um, you know, I was tanking really fast and the hospital was an hour away. And, uh, by a miracle, I don't even think the doctors understand it, but by a miracle I was still alive when I got to the hospital. I, I lost 90% of my blood into my abdomen. Um, and, um, I didn't know I was dying, but I was dying, and I was right in that sort of twilight zone. And, um, the, uh, a, a black pit opened up underneath me and I felt myself starting to get pulled down into it and I, I didn't wanna go. Like, it was cold and dark and black and bottomless, and I just knew, like, "Do not go down there." And I was getting pulled down into it. And right at that moment, my, my father who passed away in 2012, um, my father sort of appeared next to me and started trying to communicate, trying to communicate with me and comforting me. And, um, I, um, I sort of waved him away and the last thing I remember saying to the doctor, I was sort of losing consciousness, and the last thing I said to the doctor was, "You're losing me right now. You gotta hurry." He was trying to put a... He'd cut my neck open. He was trying to put a line into my neck to... You know, they pumped 10, 10 units of blood into me and that's what brought me back. It was really close. (exhales)

2. 2:38 – 3:19

   The “black pit,” a visitation from his father, and how close he came to dying

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:38

      Wow. Um, when you say you, you felt y- you were sinking into a pit? Like, did, were you seeing this? Were you visualizing it?

   2. SJSebastian Junger2:45

      I, I, yeah. I mean, you know, your perceptions are very weird 'cause I had, you know, very little oxygen in the brain. I'd, I had a hemoglobin count of 1.2. If you're a doctor, you know what that is. It's almost unheard of. And so I just felt this pit underneath me and it was pulling me into it and I didn't wanna go.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:00

      And you can see a pit? Like, you, you sort of-

   4. SJSebastian Junger3:01

      Yeah, I mean, again, see/feel. Your perceptions are very weird when-

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:05

      Right.

   6. SJSebastian Junger3:05

      ... you're like that. And then my father also was sort of floating above me. He was a presence. Um, I don't know if seeing him is quite the word. I, it's another perception.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      Wow.

   8. SJSebastian Junger3:18

      Yeah.

3. 3:19 – 9:10

   Reframing the trauma: from fear to “sacred,” and gratitude through blood donation

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      So coming out of that, once you regained your health, you must have had an incredible newfound appreciation for all the people in your life and just everything.

   2. SJSebastian Junger3:29

      It was a long path. You know, I, I mean, I'm a really healthy guy. Later the doctor said, "You know, it was your..." You know, I was a marathon runner when I was young and, um, I don't drink. I'm, uh, I'm athletic and I use my body pretty vigorously. And he said, "That saved your life. Like, you didn't have a heart attack. Like, you, you, you owe your life to that." And-

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      Oh. Wow.

   4. SJSebastian Junger3:48

      But the next morning, you know, I didn't know that I'd almost died. I had no idea. I have two little girls. I have a four-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old, and they're the most precious things to me. I, I mean, I can't even describe it, obviously. And the fact that they almost lost their dad was just devastating. When the ICU nurse came in and said, "How are you doing, Mr. Junger? You're one lucky guy. You almost died yesterday." I had no idea. And then she came back an hour later and, um, and, and she said, "How are you doing?" And I said, "You know, physically, I'm..." And I was throwing up blood. I was, I'm not f- (laughs) I was not doing very well physically, but I said I was. I said, "But, you know, I'm really struggling with what you told me and, um, it's really terrifying. I didn't know." And I mean, I said, "I almost died in my own driveway in front of my family and I didn't even know?" Like, and I said, "I keep thinking about it. I can't stop." And she said the wisest things, one of the wisest things I've ever heard. She said, um, she said, "Stop thinking of that moment as scary and start thinking of it as sacred." And she didn't elaborate. She didn't need to. In the next five days in the ICU, I thought about that word sacred and what the experience was now giving me access to. And, you know, not to sound sort of, like, trite, but, um, life is a frigging miracle. And, you know, I'm not religious. I, you know, whatever. I, I don't think any of us, few of us, I certainly didn't, quite understand, um, what a miracle it is that we're alive, that we exist, that we draw breath, that we can think about ourselves, that we're here for even one day is a freaking miracle. And you can forget that because your life gets busy and all of a sudden, I feel like life was sort of returned to me, meaning that I understood how sacred it is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SJSebastian Junger5:40

      And, um, again, I'm an atheist. I don't mean sacred in a religious sense. I mean, in the sense that it's, has a profound value and you mustn't, mustn't, mustn't forget.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:51

      It's so easy to lose sight of that when you're caught up in your bills or traffic or your bullshit and-

   8. SJSebastian Junger5:57

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:57

      There's so much, so much of life that is essential in, in, in order for you to just keep on existing in society, but not really important.

   10. SJSebastian Junger6:07

       ... yeah. And, you know, we're humans. We're... I mean, you know, we're wired to have, react to things. You know, someone pisses you off or you're- you're tired or whatever. It's not that we shouldn't have those reactions. Th- Those reactions also keep us alive.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:17

       Right.

   12. SJSebastian Junger6:17

       I mean, our emotional and physical reactions are- are adaptive and they protect us, right? But at the end of the day, you don't want them to run away with your experience of life. You wanna reclaim it and just go right... You know, all I have to do is go back to that moment of what happened in that driveway and that I was spared getting pulled into that pit. That didn't happen. And my daughters get to have a father. I get to experience whatever the rest of my life is, whatever it is. Who knows how long I'll live. But I get... I- I- I... That gift was returned to me. Um, and I don't even necess- I don't even know who to say thank you to. (laughs) Other than I've started giving blood. 10, 10 people, 10 people donated blood and saved my life, but I'll never know who they are. And that, um... You know, it makes you part of this sort of s- web of life, um, in a way that it's... You know, when I gave blood for the first time, you know, like after this happened, I gave blood and it made me feel so good.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:16

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SJSebastian Junger7:16

       Uh, and now I've- I can't wait to do it again. Like, you're, I'm part of something bigger and- and- and that's one of the most profound human joys, is to be part of something greater than yourself.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:25

       That is a beautiful thing and a beautiful way to think about it. And I think I'm... Find out if this is true. Maybe someone told me this. Is giving blood actually good for you? I think your body having the opportunity to replenish its blood supply actually stimulates some aspects of your system.

   16. SJSebastian Junger7:45

       Uh, yeah. I can... I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I can ima- I mean, I-

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:48

       You're not a doctor?

   18. SJSebastian Junger7:48

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       I don't know if this is even true though. I mean, um, it's one of those things where I'm like, it's in a dusty corner of my brain.

   20. SJSebastian Junger7:57

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       I'm like, "What is that?"

   22. SJSebastian Junger7:58

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:59

       "Is that real-"

   24. SJSebastian Junger8:00

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       ... "or is that horse shit?" There's a lot of those things in my brain, by the way.

   26. SJSebastian Junger8:03

       Ooh.

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:03

       Here it goes. I guess this says- Benefits of donating blood, side effects, advantages and more. Side effects of donating blood donation, uh... Oh, it's by your, so... Okay. Uh, health benefits of donating blood, including good health and reduced risk of cancer, hemochromatosis. It helps in reducing the risk of damage to the liver and the pancreas. Donating bl- donating blood may help in improving cardiovascular health and reducing obesity. So yeah. Okay, good.

   28. SJSebastian Junger8:29

       Phew.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:29

       I'm always worried about my fucking memory, so there you go. I knew there was something there.

   30. SJSebastian Junger8:33

       Yeah, yeah.
4. 9:10 – 12:56

   Recovery, paranoia, and deciding to write ‘Pulse’ about dying and consciousness

   1. SJSebastian Junger9:10

      Well, you know, I had, I had a, you know, gallon of blood in my abdomen and- and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:14

      A gallon?

   3. SJSebastian Junger9:14

      Well, whatever the amount of blood in your body is.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:16

      How do they get it out?

   5. SJSebastian Junger9:17

      Something like that. They can't. You know, it's a hematoma and my body had to gradually reabsorb it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:21

      Whoa.

   7. SJSebastian Junger9:22

      Uh, so, you know, that takes months. And, uh, and now I'm left with this sort of psychological residue of the experience, which is I have this, um, uh, I, you know, renewed, reinvigorated appreciation for life. Um, but also the r- the truth about life is that none of us know for sure we're gonna be alive at sunset. You know? I mean, we all know you can get cancer or you can die in a car accident or whatever. But really, the truth is, the thing, uh, we're- we're alive because the tiniest membranes in your body are- are- are- are- are not rupturing. You know what I mean?

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:58

      Right.

   9. SJSebastian Junger9:58

      Like, the system that your body is, is like incredibly complex, and if something goes wrong, you can be dead in minutes. And you can be totally healthy and that can happen. And the fact that the universe can just randomly take you out for, um, no apparent reason, um, that's pretty startling news if you think about it. I didn't know it worked that way.

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:20

       (laughs)

   11. SJSebastian Junger10:20

       And it can make you kinda paranoid.

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       Did it make you paranoid?

   13. SJSebastian Junger10:23

       Oh, totally. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       Yeah?

   15. SJSebastian Junger10:24

       I mean, I just... Every day I was like... I mean, this is gradually going away, but I just, I realized like, you don't know. You just don't know that you're gonna be alive in- in an hour-

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:33

       Right.

   17. SJSebastian Junger10:34

       ... from now. And you're going running, you're s- you're reading a book to your daughter, you're, whatever, having dinner with some friends. And- and now I- I was like, an hour from now, I could be dead or the guy I'm talking to could be dead and none of us know and none of us can do anything about it. And that's just what life is. We're- we're- we're- we're living on a rock hurtling through the universe. I mean, we're- we're- we're part of the universe and we exist at its, um, at its mercy, really.

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:01

       Were you afterwards contemplating what that pit was and what it means, and what it means to slide into that and like... (smacks lips)

   19. SJSebastian Junger11:09

       You know, I- I started to do a little research into the- the death... I wanna write a book about this, and I think I'm gonna call it Pulse.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:16

       Ooh, I like that.

   21. SJSebastian Junger11:17

       Like, the thing that keeps us alive.

   22. JRJoe Rogan11:18

       That's a good name.

   23. SJSebastian Junger11:19

       And why we're alive and- and what happens when you die. And I've just started doing some research into this. And- and- the- the- the visitation by a- dead ancestors is very common-

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:30

       Oh.

   25. SJSebastian Junger11:30

       ... for people. Um, and often, um... I mean, there's all kinds of reasons that you might hallucinate when your brain's low on oxygen. But I, you know, I didn't hallucinate anyone in my family. I didn't halluci- I hallucinated my dead father, right? And that's very, very common. And I didn't know I was dying. So it's not like I conjured him up because I knew I was headed somewhere. Uh, I was very confused and there he was, trying to comfort me. And that's a really common experience, so I looked into it. And so they have, they have all these, you know, release of ketamine and all, uh, like... They have all these DMT, I mean, they have all these sort of neurochemical explanations for the subjective experience of dying for the person. And we only know this because people come back, like I do, and report what they saw, and it's usually pretty weird. But it's pretty weird in predictable ways. Like, a lot of people see the dead. It's as if they show up to help. And I wanna repeat, I'm an atheist. I'm not religious. I don't believe in anything. My dad was a physicist.... so I wanna sort of explain what happens in ways that he would, um, respect scientifically. And so, one of the things they said is that you can take, uh, low oxygen, ketamine, all these things that physically could happen in their brain. You can, you can subject a, a, a n- a healthy person to those things and they don't have the same kinds of hallucinations. Those hallucinations are particular only to the dying, and I wanna know, I wanna try to figure out what is going on in that weird twilight space.

5. 12:56 – 16:40

   DMT, pineal gland lore, and humility about the unknown after death

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:56

      Mm. You should, um, you should see if someone will do a therapeutic DMT trip with you.

   2. SJSebastian Junger13:06

      I've heard about that.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      Yeah.

   4. SJSebastian Junger13:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:08

      They'll do it, um... There, you know, it's... S- s- they, they were doing it out of, uh, University of New Mexico. Uh, Rick Strassman was, um, doing it, and he, he d- he had full federal approval for these studies. And there was a book called, uh, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, that he wrote about the-

   6. SJSebastian Junger13:27

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:27

      ... the experience of taking these people and doing an IV drip dimethyltryptamine, but they all had these insanely profound experiences-

   8. SJSebastian Junger13:34

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:34

      ... that stayed with them for, you know, tr- uh, depending on the person, but for long periods of time afterwards and profoundly changed their lives.

   10. SJSebastian Junger13:43

       Well, an endogenous form of DMT is released in the brain of dying people.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:47

       Yeah.

   12. SJSebastian Junger13:48

       And may- maybe he wrote about that, but...

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:49

       But he, they speculated on it. See, so what the problem was-

   14. SJSebastian Junger13:52

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:52

       ... for the longest time is, uh, the pineal gland. And the pineal gland is, uh, what th- you know, ancients used to call the seat of the soul, and it's this small gland that they think... In, in reptiles, it actually has a retina and a cornea, and I think even a lens. It, it literally is a third eye.

   16. SJSebastian Junger14:16

       Whoa.

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:16

       Yeah. Google that. I think the pineal gland in reptiles has, uh, it, it definitely has a, a retina, I believe, and I think it has a lens. But it's a thir- uh, like, the third eye, the concept of the third eye, it actually is an eye in some strange way, and it also... Just recently, they confirmed... Here it goes, the pineal complex of reptiles is a morphol- morphologically and functionally connected set of organs. It originates in an ev- evangination. Evangination? Evagination? Hmm. Of the roof of the... Oh, boy, all these words.

   18. SJSebastian Junger14:52

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:53

       It's formed by two structures, the pineal organ and the, uh, parietal eye. Parietal? Parietal? Parietal eye?

   20. SJSebastian Junger15:01

       Parietal. Parietal, I think.

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:02

       Parietal?

   22. SJSebastian Junger15:02

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       Uh, both the pineal gland and the parietal eye are photosensitive.

   24. SJSebastian Junger15:07

       Photosensitive, wow.

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:07

       Yeah. It r- it ac-... Go there, which reptile has a third eye. Click that. Um, so there r- there literally are re- well, anyway, point is, this has always been thought of as the third eye. If you look at, you know, Eastern mysticism and whenever, uh, people are, are enlightened, they're depicted-

   26. SJSebastian Junger15:26

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:26

       ... they're depicted with that third eye.

   28. SJSebastian Junger15:28

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       And this organ, the Cottonwood Research Foundation was the first group that, uh, they actually discovered that, uh, for sure, the pineal gland does produce DMT in living rats. Because before, they knew that it was produced by the liver and the lungs, and there was a lot of anecdotal evidence that pointed to the pineal gland-

   30. SJSebastian Junger15:49

       Right.
6. 16:40 – 22:12

   Ignored warning signs, a prophetic dream, and the driveway chainsaw ‘coincidence’

   1. SJSebastian Junger16:40

      And w- uh, I mean, we might not even be able to ca- be capable of understanding it with the brains that we have, you know? So maybe that's why we keep bumping into the unknowable because it's just unknowable to us. At any rate, let me tell you that two nights before I almost died, I, um... You know, I'd had a pain in my abdomen for a year that I ignored, and, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:02

      How bad was the pain?

   3. SJSebastian Junger17:03

      Um, you know, it was... I could tolerate it, which to me meant, "Okay, well, if you can bear it, then it's not gonna kill you." You know what I mean?

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:10

      It's the problems with being a tough guy. (laughs)

   5. SJSebastian Junger17:12

      (laughs) And the other, the corollary to that is if you can't bear it, you should learn to bear it-

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:15

      Yeah.

   7. SJSebastian Junger17:15

      Because, you know what I mean? Like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:17

      Yeah.

   9. SJSebastian Junger17:17

      It, so toughness will kill you.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       Yeah.

   11. SJSebastian Junger17:19

       If it doesn't save you, it will kill you. And, um, so it just sort of came and went right in the area where the bleed happened, and, uh, but I ignored it and ignored it, and then, uh, it kind of stopped happening for a month or so. And I had a dream right around dawn. And my family and I, we all sleep in the same, in the same bed. It's not even a bed, it's a, you know, like pad on the floor, and, and, uh, so I woke up. I was woken up around 6:00 AM by this dream, and the dream was that I died, and I died unnecessarily. I died, I made a mistake. I just screwed up, and I'd crossed over, and now I'm dead, and I'm looking back at my family and they're grieving, and they're my family that I love more than anything. More than I could imagine loving something, I love them, you know? And I can't go back because I've crossed over, and I'm, I'm just thinking, "You stupid asshole, you, you screwed up, and now you're dead, and there's nothing you can do about it." And I woke up with a start. I thought, "Oh, thank God, I'm not dead. I'm alive, and here's my daugh-..." My daughter was right next to me. I put my arm around her, I was like, "Oh, thank God." About 36 hours later, I was dying.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       Wow.

   13. SJSebastian Junger18:29

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       Do you think that that was your body trying to tell you-

   15. SJSebastian Junger18:31

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       ... "Hey, man, this shit's about to blow"?

   17. SJSebastian Junger18:33

       Listen, I mean-... for a year, my body tried to tell me with pain that something was wrong and I ignored it. And then 36 hours left to go, it sent me a dream. And on the morning of the, um, on the morning of the day that it happened, you know, uh, uh, I, uh, we live in a, uh ... I live partly in, we live partly in New York City and partly in a, a really remote area at the end of a long dead-end dirt road in the woods, and it gets overgrown, right? And the fire department said, "Listen, you gotta clear that 'cause we can't get trucks in there. You're gonna have to clear that dirt road." You know, it's a small town. Everyone knows each other. It's like, "Listen, clear that stuff." And that morning, you know, I'd been meaning to do this for two years, right? I was an arborist for a long time. I know... I've used chainsaws my whole life, like, I do all that work myself. And I, I'd been meaning to do it for two years and, and that morning, I was like, "I gotta clear that damn driveway." And I took my chainsaw, and I took a few hours, and I cleared the whole length. There's a long dirt driveway through the woods. I cleared the whole thing so emergency vehicles could get in, and a few hours, like, like three hours later, I was dying.

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       (imitates explosion)

   19. SJSebastian Junger19:40

       So-

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:40

       Imagine if you didn't do that.

   21. SJSebastian Junger19:41

       Well, exactly, right? And so the thing is, like, the, the body, I think, can communicate with the unconscious mind. And then the unconscious mind tries to communicate with the conscious mind, but your conscious mind's a freaking idiot, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:55

       (laughs)

   23. SJSebastian Junger19:56

       And it doesn't take little hints. It doesn't take clues. Bomb it with pain, it ignores it. You know, bomb it with dreams. It's like, "Wow, that was weird." (laughs) You know?

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       Yeah.

   25. SJSebastian Junger20:05

       But at the end of the day, your body's trying to keep you alive, and it sent me out there with a chainsaw. And I don't, you know, I, I avoi- I'm actively avoidant of mystical explanations for things, but I honestly don't know how to explain any of this. And my, I'm gonna try to with my book, Pulse. Like, my whole life as a journalist, I've gone to front lines and wars in foreign countries and come back and reported what I saw there, right? And this is the ultimate front line. It's that twilight place between life and death. And I was privileged that I could go there and come back. I made it back, and I want to report what I saw.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:40

       Mm. Wow. I wanna read it. (laughs)

   27. SJSebastian Junger20:45

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:47

       It's, uh, it's the thing that we all wonder. What is this? Is this a, a pit stop, or is this the life? You know, is the life a never-ending infinite experience that goes on forever in many forms-

   29. SJSebastian Junger20:59

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:59

       ... or is it just this? Or is this a thing that you do over and over and over again until you get it right? I had that conversation with a friend of mine once, and they were really, really bummed out about it. And I said, "If this is life, if the life that, that we all live, like, right now, just you have to do this over and over again for infinity until you get it right," they're like, "Oh, fuck that. I don't wanna keep doing this." I'm like-
7. 22:12 – 32:31

   Comedy, genius, and humility: Robin Williams and leadership through example

   1. SJSebastian Junger22:12

      Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, I mean, for a lot of people, life is painful, and it may just be that they don't wanna go through that their whole life.

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:17

      Yeah, but my friend, he doesn't have a painful life.

   3. SJSebastian Junger22:19

      Yeah. Okay. Well, right. But-

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:21

      He's fine.

   5. SJSebastian Junger22:21

      Yeah?

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:21

      He's a comedian. He's fun. (laughs)

   7. SJSebastian Junger22:22

      He's a c- (laughs) I, I hear that comedians are the most, th- in the most pain and they, and they deal with it through comedy.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:29

      Don't believe that.

   9. SJSebastian Junger22:30

      No? Okay.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:31

       No. There's, uh, there's a lot of mental illness.

   11. SJSebastian Junger22:34

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:35

       Strong mental illness lines, you know? That's, like, probably the underlying... If there's, like, one primary factor-

   13. SJSebastian Junger22:42

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       ... mental illness is a big one. It's usually from traumatic childhood.

   15. SJSebastian Junger22:47

       Yeah. Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:48

       Yeah. But overall, you know, fairly resilient because of the fact they have to deal with adversity constantly. Most people don't deal with the kind of adversity-

   17. SJSebastian Junger22:58

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:58

       ... that you deal with when you're bombing or you go on stage and you're dealing-

   19. SJSebastian Junger23:01

       Right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan23:01

       ... with hecklers and stuff.

   21. SJSebastian Junger23:02

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan23:02

       You're dealing with... It's a different level-

   23. SJSebastian Junger23:04

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan23:04

       ... of ver- of adversity. There... That, the, and the old- the adage of, like, you know, the, the tears of a clown, like, the-

   25. SJSebastian Junger23:11

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:12

       ... these really, they're really depressed, and stage is the only place they get to be alive. Not really true either.

   27. SJSebastian Junger23:17

       Right.

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:17

       You get us together, when we're around our people-

   29. SJSebastian Junger23:19

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:20

       ... pretty fun.
8. 32:31 – 44:25

   Political leadership, moral courage, and the danger of tribal extremism

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:31

      Yeah, I, I do as well. And this way you're describing leadership, like, I think this is what everybody wishes we could recognize in our political leaders. Like, we wish there was a, a shining example, and I think if there was one in the past election, it was Tulsi Gabbard because you're talking about a woman-

   2. SJSebastian Junger32:49

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:49

      ... who had served overseas twice in, in-

   4. SJSebastian Junger32:52

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:52

      ... medical units-

   6. SJSebastian Junger32:53

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:54

      ... had literally worked with people who'd been shot and blown up-

   8. SJSebastian Junger32:57

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:58

      ... and had served as a congresswoman for six years, or I guess eight years at the end. So she really was an example of that, but other than that, you saw just a lot of more of the same, and it was really frustrating-

   10. SJSebastian Junger33:10

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:10

       ... for people be- so they had to pick a horse, and they had to pick a horse that they weren't exactly excited about.

   12. SJSebastian Junger33:16

       Right, right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       A- and, and that's, that's what led us-

   14. SJSebastian Junger33:18

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:18

       ... to what we have in the White House currently. It's not... It's, like, this fake excitement about this-

   16. SJSebastian Junger33:25

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:25

       ... supposed leader that doesn't really exhibit any of these characteristics that we would be hoping to see-

   18. SJSebastian Junger33:32

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:32

       ... in someone who's running the show.

   20. SJSebastian Junger33:34

       Well, you know, I think the, the, the willingness to tell the truth as a political leader, uh, even if it puts you in disfavor with your own party, is a, um, a strong indicator of, of moral courage.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:45

       Hmm.

   22. SJSebastian Junger33:45

       And, you know, both parties, I think, have a deficit of that. Um...

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:50

       Yeah.

   24. SJSebastian Junger33:50

       And, um, I, you know, I, I mean, I'm a de- I'm a registered Democrat. I, you know, I've, whatever, not that it really matters, but just, just to be, like, in the open about it. But I think, you know, that li- you know, Liz Cheney, I mean, she's t- t- possibly destroyed her political future. I don't know, and I, I... who... I don't know what the truth about anything is, but the fact that she's willing to go against the sort of Republican orthodoxy, to me, means that she's putting what she believes to be the truth ahead of her own political, um, uh, future. I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:20

       I'm not totally aware of what's going on. Can you explain-

   26. SJSebastian Junger34:22

       Oh.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:22

       ... that to me?

   28. SJSebastian Junger34:23

       Oh, she... Oh, yeah. So she's been calling out, um, the, um, the January 6th uprising and calling out the sort of big lie, the, the election was stolen, right? And, you know, the entire P- Republican leadership has, has acknowledged that it was a free and fair election, and then there's been a lot of sort of hemming and hawing. And Liz Cheney's like, "Look, the democracy is more important than either political party. The country's more important than either political party, and we, um, the country will f- will, will, will collapse if we, if we keep feeding lies to it, and this is a really dangerous lie."

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:57

       Hmm.

   30. SJSebastian Junger34:58

       And so she's, she's... Like, I mean, I don't know where you are politically. It doesn't matter to me. It... N- none of this matters, really, other than to point out that she was saying something that she was gravely punished for, and she did it knowing she would be punished for it, and she did it anyway 'cause she really believed in something. And, you know, there's examples on the left as well of that. And that, to me, is like... That's leadership.
9. 44:25 – 1:04:40

   Trans athletes, fairness in sports, and why ideology collides with biology

   1. JRJoe Rogan44:25

      Well, one of the first things he did in office, though, was make it so that biological girls had to compete against trans girls in sports.

   2. SJSebastian Junger44:33

      Right. I, god, I was so horrified by that. I actually thought, that's, I mean, I'm an a- former athlete, right? And, and, and, um, I, I just, like, the, the, the role of, of, um, hormones. I mean, you know more about this than me. But the role of hormones in athletics, of testosterone, is so dominant. And, I mean, that's why at 59, I'm not the runner I was at 20.

   3. JRJoe Rogan44:53

      Yeah.

   4. SJSebastian Junger44:53

      I just have lower testosterone, right? And s- and what that could do to, to girls' sports, to me seems, like, really, really puzzling. Like, are you sure you wanna do that?

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      It's just ideologically driven.

   6. SJSebastian Junger45:05

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:05

      It's not driven by science.

   8. SJSebastian Junger45:06

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:06

      It's not driven by logic. It's certainly not driven by compassion for biological-

   10. SJSebastian Junger45:10

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:10

       ... women. It's, it's driven by what you would call the, uh, uh, oppression spectrum.

   12. SJSebastian Junger45:17

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:17

       Right? Like, who's at the highest end-

   14. SJSebastian Junger45:20

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:20

       ... of the oppression spectrum?

   16. SJSebastian Junger45:21

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       Trans people.

   18. SJSebastian Junger45:22

       Right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       Maybe, uh, b- interracial trans people would, like, or maybe Black trans people would trump that.

   20. SJSebastian Junger45:28

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:28

       Like, what, what is the-

   22. SJSebastian Junger45:29

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:29

       ... the top m- perceived most oppressed? Everyone else has to sort of capitulate. Everyone else has to sort of, like, figure out a way to comply-

   24. SJSebastian Junger45:38

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       ... with whatever rules are gonna benefit them. Biological women are clearly not going to benefit from trans girls competing in girls' sports.

   26. SJSebastian Junger45:46

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:46

       They're just not.

   28. SJSebastian Junger45:47

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       It's not good for them. And if you think it is good for them, then I, I get how you would want it to be inclusive and you would want everyone to just feel-

   30. SJSebastian Junger45:58

       Right.
10. 1:04:40 – 1:13:12

    ‘Freedom’ as run–fight–think: mobility, combat, and strategy from MMA to empires

    1. SJSebastian Junger1:04:40

       You know, one thing that gets lost in all this, uh, is, um, just what an extraordinary creation the human being is-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:48

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SJSebastian Junger1:04:48

       ... as an athlete. I mean, I was sort of looking at athletic performance, particularly with running, 'cause I wa- you know, my book is divided into run, fight, and think. Right? The three ways you can defeat a, a, a greater power or at least have a chance of it, right? And if you can outr- if you can outrun 'em, outfight 'em, if you can't outfight 'em, you're gonna have to outthink them. And, um, that's what happens with social change within a society-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:05:09

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SJSebastian Junger1:05:09

       ... like the labor movement in this country 100 years ago. But, uh, so I was, you know, I was looking at our, our capacity to run, right? And I mean, I'm a former runner, right? I ran competitively in college. I didn't even realize how amazing we are. There was, uh, there's a ultramarathoner named Jim Walmsley who, uh, has won the Western States 100 a bunch of times. It's 100 miles over the Sierra Nevada, right? Huge elevation gain. His time is 14 hours and nine minutes, and he has beaten... And, and, and along the same course, they run a horse and rider, horse and rider teams, like basically the same course. He beat the horse and rider team in his year, and I th- and, and almost every other year for the previous 20 years. He's a human being on foot.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:05:56

       (laughs)

    7. SJSebastian Junger1:05:57

       Can you imagine?

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:05:58

       So crazy. (laughs)

    9. SJSebastian Junger1:05:59

       And the thous- the thousand mile world record is 10 days.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:06:03

        God.

    11. SJSebastian Junger1:06:03

        A guy ran a thousand miles in 10 days.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:06:06

        Do you, do you know what the Moab 240 is?

    13. SJSebastian Junger1:06:10

        No, but I can almost guess by the name. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:06:12

        Yeah. It's a, a run through-

    15. SJSebastian Junger1:06:14

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:06:14

        ... the Moab-

    17. SJSebastian Junger1:06:14

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:06:14

        ... Mountains and-

    19. SJSebastian Junger1:06:15

        Right.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:06:16

        ... there's a woman named Courtney Dauwalter.

    21. SJSebastian Junger1:06:17

        I, I interviewed her in my book.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:19

        Yeah.

    23. SJSebastian Junger1:06:19

        She's in my book.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:06:20

        She's a fucking monster. (laughs)

    25. SJSebastian Junger1:06:21

        She's, she's amazing.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:06:22

        She's amazing.

    27. SJSebastian Junger1:06:23

        Yeah. She's incredible.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:06:23

        She beat the second place man by 10 hours.

    29. SJSebastian Junger1:06:26

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:26

        10 fucking hours.

Episode duration: 2:54:43