Joe Rogan Experience #1665 - Carole Hooven

1. 0:00 – 2:53

   Why write a book about testosterone—and why the science feels “under attack”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. CHCarole Hooven0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) Hello.

   4. CHCarole Hooven0:15

      Hi, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Welcome. Thanks for doing this.

   6. CHCarole Hooven0:17

      Thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Appreciate it.

   8. CHCarole Hooven0:17

      Thank you so much for having me.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      My pleasure. I'm excited to talk about this. What, what made you want to write about testosterone? What was the motivation behind this?

   10. CHCarole Hooven0:25

       So, I'll give you the short story f- first-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Okay.

   12. CHCarole Hooven0:28

       ... and then, uh, later, I can give you the longer story.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       You can give me the longer story.

   14. CHCarole Hooven0:31

       The longer story involves chimpanzees.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Oh.

   16. CHCarole Hooven0:33

       So that's kind of fun.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       One, one of my favorite subjects.

   18. CHCarole Hooven0:35

       Um, but the short story is (sighs) that t- I teach at Harvard about hormones. I teach a course, m- um, behavioral ... Well, it's on behavioral endocrinology. It's called Hormones and Behavior. And I've taught that, uh, for a long time now. And I got, I got my PhD at Harvard, studying testosterone and behavior, studying sex differences and the way we think and process information. And I love ... I've just love the topic. I love how much understanding testosterone helps me understand the world, understand men. I'm not a man. I don't really understand men, uh, or how they work. But understanding this hormone really has helped me a lot. And then, in teaching about endocrinology, and specifically testosterone, I get so much feedback from students about how it changes their lives, changes how they understand themselves personally, how they understand their relationships, how they understand the world. And it's empowering for them, and it's been empowering for me. And (sighs) so, I've just always had this natural, intellectual enthusiasm for this topic, a- and, um, but I'd say, in the last five years, I felt like the science was coming under attack. And there's been kind of (sighs) a program to dismantle the science of testosterone and how it shapes behavior, particularly the evolutionary basis of behavior, um, has kind of come under attack, the idea that there, that sex differences are grounded in biology, and I know that testosterone is a really important part of that. And, uh, there's a movement to kind of discredit that science or downplay the importance of biology, and specifically testosterone, in our lives, and especially in sex differences. And I'm fascinated by sex differences, and I'm fascinated by how evolution shapes sex differences across different species and how it works. And, uh ... So that's ultimately why I wrote the book, 'cause I kinda wanna get all the science out there and kinda push back against what I see as an attack on really good science. There's nothing wrong with understanding who we are from a biological point of view. Uh, and I think we should all be open to that and learn as much as we can about who we are and how we work.

2. 2:53 – 7:38

   Sex differences as averages: overlap, culture, and what testosterone is “for”

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:53

      Yeah. I, I agree with you, and I ... but I also think it's fascinating, when I watch (clears throat) the attack on the science of biology, the science of how ... If you w- like, I, I think that if we were an objective observer, like something other than human, and we're watching human beings, we would be really interested in the, the sex differences between the male and the females, and what's ... Why are there th- th- there's, like, this real clear pattern of behavior on both sides. Obviously, there's a spectrum in that pattern, but d- depending upon the levels of hormones and the genetic variance, there's a lot of, like, consistency. And what is causing this, and what is ... You know, what is it about male behavior that leads to this and female behavior that livs- leads to that? But then, you get into this weird thing where ideology has somehow or another overtaken science with a lot of human beings today. So they're willing to abandon science if it's inconvenient for their ideology. And it's very strange, 'cause you see really intelligent people doing this.

   2. CHCarole Hooven3:59

      Yes. Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:59

      Which is where it's really spooky, because they're scared of being chastised and attacked on Twitter. They're scared of being canceled. So they're scared of going against the mainstream, which is ideologically based instead of scientifically based.

   4. CHCarole Hooven4:14

      (clicks tongue) That's right. And (sighs) I think the fear is that the science is getting in the way of the ideology. So we ... I agree with most of the goals of the people who are ideologically motivated. We wanna reduce human suffering. We want to, um, have ... make sure that we have, uh, equal human rights for people who have all kinds of differences. And so I agree with all that. But I don't think that, if science tells us that some of these differences are grounded in biology, that means that, A, these traits that may be, uh, like extreme male aggression. That doesn't mean that that's immutable. I mean, we have tons of evidence that it's not immutable. Humans have control over their behavior. It depends heavily on the culture. So, denying the importance of, say, testosterone in male aggression isn't gonna change the way that sort of differences in our natures or the impetus for males to feel, um, more than females, that they, uh, want to be physically aggressive or to respond aggressively in certain situations. Um, and I like that you said that there's ... you implied that there's lots of overlap in behavior between males and females and the degree to which that-

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:33

      For sure.

   6. CHCarole Hooven5:33

      ... is grounded in biology. So the point isn't - and I just wanna make it really clear - at the beginning, it's not that females are like this and males are like that in human- in humans or in other species. And especially, you know, culture plays such a huge role in how we develop and how we express ourselves. But even apart from culture, there are differences on average. So there are some females who are highly physically aggressive, and there are many males who are really emotional and sensitive and totally peaceful. Can I say what ... that you just said? You tear up sometimes?

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:05

      I cry all the time.

   8. CHCarole Hooven6:06

      Okay. So you're-

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:06

      I cry mostly for happy things.

   10. CHCarole Hooven6:08

       Okay. So yeah, no, and I, I just cry when I'm moved or passionate. I cry a lot, and I actually talk about that in the book because there's a relationship with testosterone there that we can talk about later, which is really interesting. But the point is that, you know, my book ...... T is not about, uh, not trying to explain why m- males are one way and females are another way. But why we're different on average, why we have somewhat different natures.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CHCarole Hooven6:34

       And testosterone is, to me, the most powerful way to understand those differences in our natures, you know, from an evolutionary point of view and looking at how we as animals, as mammals, um, try to maximize our reproductive success, right? And that's, so that's what testosterone does, is it helps males maximize basically the number of offspring they have through increasing mating opportunities.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       Mm.

   14. CHCarole Hooven6:59

       It doesn't mean that males are only interested in having tons of sex and tons of sex partners. But they're definitely more interested in that than females in humans and in many other species where increasing the number of mates, you know, yields reproductive benefits for males but not females. And that's what sex hormones do. Estrogen, you know, and progesterone do similar things in women. But it doesn't motivate us to fight aggressively for mates.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       Right. Clearly, if we were looking at this again as an objective observer, we would see all this. There would be, without ... There wouldn't be any debate. It'd be like, "This is fascinating. Well, this is why. They've only been around for a couple hundred thousand years, and for a long time they were eaten by jaguars."

3. 7:38 – 10:00

   Transgender hormone transitions as a window into testosterone’s effects

   1. CHCarole Hooven7:38

      Right.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:38

      "And so they had to make as many babies as possible in order to ensure survival of the species. All this makes sense." You know? There's, uh, wh- did you talk to any people that has, have switched genders? Like-

   3. CHCarole Hooven7:49

      Yes.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:50

      What was that like? Like-

   5. CHCarole Hooven7:51

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:51

      ... one of the things that I found fascinating was listening to Chaz Bono-

   7. CHCarole Hooven7:55

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:55

      ... talk about, uh, his transition.

   9. CHCarole Hooven7:57

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       And, um, how, you know, he just, like, kinda got it-

   11. CHCarole Hooven8:03

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:03

       ... once he started taking testosterone. Like-

   13. CHCarole Hooven8:05

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       ... "Oh, this is what the fuck's been going on with the world."

   15. CHCarole Hooven8:08

       Yes. Yes. So, I try to understand how testosterone works in humans by first thinking about it from an evolutionary point of view. What is the purpose, uh, of sex differences and sex hormones? Why do male animals have high testosterone and females have high, say, estrogen? And, and what do those do to our bodies and to our psychology to help us maximize our reproductive success? Meaning have ultimately sort of as many ... get our genes into the next generation, um, as efficiently as possible. So, one way is to, to look from an evolutionary point of view. Another way is to look at, uh, different kinds of experi- experiments in non-human animals. And then another thing we can do is look at what happens in humans who change their hormone levels. And this is absolutely fascinating and ... because we have some examples of that, you know, happening right now. So I talked to people for the book and I used their words because they're the ones who are living through these experiences and I wanted them to tell what it was like. So I interviewed, um, a male to female transgender person, a female to male transgender person, a non-binary person who was taking puberty blockers, and then somebody who is female who transitioned to male and then transitioned back to female. So I got-

   16. JRJoe Rogan9:30

       Mm.

   17. CHCarole Hooven9:30

       ... this really wide range of experiences, and I thought that what they had to say was incredibly powerful. And I can describe some of what they said, which helped me to understand myself better, helped me to understand my husband better, and really just had a big impact on me personally. I felt, I found this evidence really, really sort of moving and powerful. But one thing I wanna say before we talk about that is that one of the biggest, um, influences on human and non-human sex differences

4. 10:00 – 14:24

   Prenatal and early-life testosterone: organizing the brain, rough-and-tumble play, and practice for competition

   1. CHCarole Hooven10:00

      is differences in the womb and what happens to us when we're inside our moms as fetuses developing. So, uh, males, uh, have testes that produce male levels of testosterone in utero, and that testosterone, that, uh, that's called a, a, um, perinatal effect or an organizational effect. So that's early on in life. We start out right from the get-go with these very different levels of testosterone, and that shapes the brain and body. So it helps to develop the genitalia, internal and external genitalia. So it, um, changes male genitalia to say form the penis and internal structures. But at the same time, it shapes the brain. So the cool thing about sex hormones, which are steroids, is that they can just get right into the brain and alter, uh, neural development. And that's what happens early on is we have these big differences that shape childhood behavior. So, everybody pretty much can accept that little boys behave differently on average, again, from little girls. Boys are definitely, all over the world, much more interested in rough and tumble play. Um, so, you know, I'm somebody who used to love to climb trees. I played baseball. I was pretty aggressive, I would say, um, which is a little bit more on the masculine side, so I'm just illustrating that. You know, again, this is kind of a, this is a spectrum, but we have these differences where boys, including my son who does not like baseball (laughs) and is not as kind of, um, probably boyish in some ways as I was, but he tackles his friends. Like, one of his favorite things to do is to, like, roll around on the floor and try to pin each other down. Boys do this a lot, and girls typically don't. They do other stuff on average. That seems to be, uh, consistent with what we see in non-human animals and a result of early exposure to testosterone. Because the levels ... so in boys, levels are high at certain periods in utero and then go up again, uh, for a short period of time after birth. That seems to have these effects on the brain that shape that rough and tumble play. And it's not an accident that there have, that boys have higher sort of aggressive physical play because that's what in a different environment, in our sort of ancestral environment, tho- they're practicing those skills that they would have needed for physical male-male status competition. So in our modern environment, males have different ways of competing that don't necessarily require physical competition, but it requires other kinds of behaviors that testosterone also seems to promote.Um, I think I'm... Uh, this is a long-winded answer to your question-

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:42

      No, no, no. It's great.

   3. CHCarole Hooven12:43

      ... which I no longer remember.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:43

      Don't worry about that.

   5. CHCarole Hooven12:44

      Um, so... Oh, you a- okay, so about the trans thing. So, the reason I'm going into what happens prenatally is because the evidence that we get about testosterone from looking at transgender people is really interesting. However, if you are a, uh, female-to-male transgender person, and what happens when you... if you decide to alter your hormones... Uh, not all transgender people will want to alter their hormones. Some people just, um, will ch- um, will- will change sex socially. They'll change their pronouns. They might adopt the clothes, uh, say, or behaviors of the opposite sex. Um, but some people will... many people will want to alter their hormones to be consistent with those of the opposite sex. So, if you're, um, male-to-female, that would mean, um, blocking testosterone and increasing estrogen. And if you're going the other way, female-to-male, it'd mean blocking estrogen and jacking up your testosterone. So, we can look at that evidence. But we have to remember that once people transition, say, if a male, um, transitions to female, that person, so we'll call that a natal male, um, had high testosterone in utero. So, even though, as an adult, they might not have testosterone, and we can look at what their behavior looks like as an adult when they block testosterone and start living, um, as a woman, they still ha- ha- there's something different about their brain. So that their brain has been masculinized in utero. And female brains, we- you can say, have been feminized or not masculinized. Female brains are not exposed-

5. 14:24 – 18:07

   How do we know brains differ? Evidence limits, animal models, and assumptions

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:24

      Can I stop you for a second?

   2. CHCarole Hooven14:25

      ... to hormones. Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:26

      When you say, "Their brains have changed," or, "Their brains have developed this way," what are we basing this on? Is this fMRI? Like, what i- what- what- what method are we using-

   4. CHCarole Hooven14:35

      (sighs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:36

      ... to examine-

   6. CHCarole Hooven14:36

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan14:36

      ... the way the brains are different?

   8. CHCarole Hooven14:38

      Yeah. So, that's a really good question. So, most of the evidence that we have is from non-human animals that we have clear differences in- in the brain that, um ... One, uh, area of the brain is called the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area of the hypothalamus. And the hypothalamus is, um, an area that basically controls the action of the pituitary, which is kind of the master gland for controlling all of our many, many, uh, hormones in our body. And the sexually dimorphic nucleus... So, sexually dimorphic means basically different sizes or shapes in each sex. So, testosterone increases the size of this. We know that it increases the size of this part of the, um, hypothalamus, and then that predicts male sexual behavior, mounting behavior, say, in rats. So, we know that sex differences in testosterone in many non-human animals do change, uh, do help to explain differences in the size of different areas of the brain. But there are also really small differences in just parts of the brain, um, and how neurons, say, branch or make connections. So, they tend not to be, in humans, as far as we know, big, obvious differences like the, um, SDNPOA. But there are some, uh, suspected differences in human brains, um, that are due to testosterone differences, but we don't have that kind of evidence. I guess, I'm not an expert on the brain, um, differences. But it's, uh, subtle differences in, say, branching or neuronal connections or the birth and death of neurons in utero. So, differences in testosterone can, um, cause differences in the, um, population of neurons or the number of cell bodies in different areas or the way that they make connections.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:34

      But the question is like, as they transition. So, if someone transitions-

   10. CHCarole Hooven16:37

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:37

       ... from male to female, d- what are we m- how are we measuring the fact that their brains have differences than people that were genetically-

   12. CHCarole Hooven16:46

       Oh, right. Yeah, we don't. We don't.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       We don't.

   14. CHCarole Hooven16:48

       It's an assumption-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Oh.

   16. CHCarole Hooven16:50

       ... that, um, because they were exposed to... So, a- a male is ex-... Because he has testes, he's exposed to male levels-

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CHCarole Hooven16:58

       ... of testosterone in utero, so the assumption is that their brain has been masculinized. But it's a good question because there's a lot of controversy around brain differences-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       Yeah.

   20. CHCarole Hooven17:07

       ... and whether there really are any. But my understanding of that literature is that, um, brains can be sexed by experts in humans with 85% accuracy. But I don't think there is one really loud signal there that can be attributed to testosterone exposure in utero. But the point I was trying to make is just that there are probably differences in the brain, um, that were shaped during that organizational period, um, in transgender people, so that we shouldn't necessarily assume that if they change their hormones in adulthood, that they will be sort of just like the other sex psychologically, 'cause there may be other differences in their brain due to having high exposure to testosterone.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Okay. S-

   22. CHCarole Hooven17:58

       But I can tell you some of the differences that we then see-

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Sure.

   24. CHCarole Hooven18:00

       ... once they transition. Um, d- did you have a question, s-

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       No, no. Y- you c- go ahead.

6. 18:07 – 28:45

   The biggest behavioral shift with testosterone: libido, desire, and sexual perception

   1. CHCarole Hooven18:07

      Okay. So, one of the biggest... What do you think the biggest, one of the biggest sex differences is in, uh, human behavior or human psychology? What would you...

   2. JRJoe Rogan18:20

      (sighs) Um, I don't know. W- would it be aggression?

   3. CHCarole Hooven18:24

      There's aggression, yep. That's big.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:26

      W- you tell me-

   5. CHCarole Hooven18:27

      There's one other thing.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:27

      Another thing?

   7. CHCarole Hooven18:28

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:29

      What?

   9. CHCarole Hooven18:29

      Sex.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       Sex?

   11. CHCarole Hooven18:30

       Sex.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:30

       The males want more sex?

   13. CHCarole Hooven18:31

       They do.

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       But what about females that want a lot of sex?

   15. CHCarole Hooven18:34

       Yeah, there are lots of females who want a lot of sex. But on average, everywhere, uh, males want more sex, and they want more sexual partners.

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:42

       I read something once, I don't know if you're aware of this, but a study out of, uh...... I think it was University of Rome-

   17. CHCarole Hooven18:49

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:49

       ... where they were, uh, examining, um, a link between promiscuous women and their offspring being male, uh, having a disproportionate amount of gay men in their offspring. And they were thinking that it was some sort of a variant in the X chromosome, that there was something about the X chromosome that was leading them to be, um, much more attracted to men than normal, and that this is what led these women to be promiscuous and it led their sons to be gay. Which sounds like madness, right?

   19. CHCarole Hooven19:24

       I did not hear that.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:25

       Let's see if I can find that.

   21. CHCarole Hooven19:26

       I would want to see-

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:27

       Yeah. I'm sure you would.

   23. CHCarole Hooven19:28

       ... replication.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:29

       You're, you work at Harvard. (laughs)

   25. CHCarole Hooven19:30

       That's interesting. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       When you're a moron like me and you read something like that, and you go, "Oh, okay."

   27. CHCarole Hooven19:34

       No, no. That, I mean, I haven't heard anything like that. When I see one study that has that kind of, sort of explosive-

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       You want it to be finding.

   29. CHCarole Hooven19:44

       ... finding, I wanna see more-

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:47

       More data.
7. 28:45 – 33:22

   Orgasm and embodiment: how hormonal state may change sexual experience

   1. CHCarole Hooven28:45

      Um, so there was that piece of it. That's a major piece. It does soften with time. So that's really just sort of the male puberty part of it, and that's an intensity that females, I think, don't get. Um, but then there's this orgasm thing, which I thought was really interesting. So the male orgasm apparently feels very different from the (laughs) female orgasm, and people who transitioned talked about how their experience of orgasm changed. Um, so do you wanna hear about that?

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:20

      Yes.

   3. CHCarole Hooven29:20

      Okay. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan29:20

      I do. I have just so many questions.

   5. CHCarole Hooven29:23

      So I can say, so I've had an orgasm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:28

      Whoa.

   7. CHCarole Hooven29:28

      So I can, I can ... I have.

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:29

      Crazy.

   9. CHCarole Hooven29:30

      And so for ... Men might not understand that for women, it is a full body experience that takes a while to build up. It plateaus, but it takes a while to kinda terminate. And sometimes after sex, men are like, "Oh, done, ba- ba- bah. You know, I'm falling asleep. I'm gonna go do this or do that." And women are, like, sort of luxuriating in the afterglow, right? And it can be ... feel insulting or hurtful for women when the guy is like, "I'm, I'm outta here, or I'm onto something else now." So it seems (laughs) that, that ex- ... so that full body feeling and the whole body being a, a sexual organ is a function of testosterone differences because when, um ... for trans men, the experience changes from the full body experience to a sharper, more intense, more acute, more time limited experience. So it's more intense at the peak, and, uh, but it seems-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       But yet they're still getting an orgasm in the same method that a woman would get an orgasm.

   11. CHCarole Hooven30:34

       What do you mean method?

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:35

       'Cause they still have the same equipment.

   13. CHCarole Hooven30:38

       No, no, no. Oh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:39

       A trans m-

   15. CHCarole Hooven30:40

       Yes, yes.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:40

       A trans man.

   17. CHCarole Hooven30:42

       Yes, yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       So you change ... They change the orgasm-

   19. CHCarole Hooven30:45

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       ... but you still have female equipment-

   21. CHCarole Hooven30:47

       Yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       ... essentially.

   23. CHCarole Hooven30:47

       Yes. So that-

   24. JRJoe Rogan30:50

       Interesting.

   25. CHCarole Hooven30:50

       But the experience changes, and the body ... So ... And if you go the opposite direction, you, you soften that intensity.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       Mm.

   27. CHCarole Hooven30:59

       And there's more of a the whole body is, is responsive-

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       But this is-

   29. CHCarole Hooven31:04

       ... in a way.

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       You're confusing the shit outta me.
8. 33:22 – 36:07

   Aggression, anger, and emotional expression: what changes and what doesn’t

   1. JRJoe Rogan33:22

      Right.

   2. CHCarole Hooven33:22

      ... what the urgency is like. And I still ... You know, as a woman, I don't really understand. Obviously, I don't understand what it's like to be a man or have high testosterone or what it's like to be a man sexually in the world. And that's part of why I'm interested in the hormone. Um, and aggression, interestingly, does not seem to ... There's not good evidence that men, that trans men, uh, become much more aggressive or that trans women become much less aggressive. There are some anecdotal, um, changes in anger and emotions. So, the emotional piece seems to be that, uh ... So I, I talked a lot ... I asked questions about emotional expression, partly 'cause I cry. I, I was telling you earlier, I tear up a lot when I am moved, and I seem to be moved all the time and I can't control it. I cry when I'm teaching, which is really embarrassing. But I teach about what I think are really important issues.

   3. JRJoe Rogan34:22

      Yeah, you're a human. You care.

   4. CHCarole Hooven34:24

      I care a lot, but I c- I care so much that I c- just cannot control my reactions.

   5. JRJoe Rogan34:31

      I think that's great.

   6. CHCarole Hooven34:32

      I- i- i-

   7. JRJoe Rogan34:32

      I think people are scared of that for some strange reason that thinks-

   8. CHCarole Hooven34:35

      Yeah. No, I-

   9. JRJoe Rogan34:35

      ... they're supposed to be stoic all the time or-

   10. CHCarole Hooven34:37

       It's masculine.

   11. JRJoe Rogan34:38

       Yeah.

   12. CHCarole Hooven34:38

       So being stoic is masculine, and having a lot of emotions and expressing them is more feminine. Of course, again, this is a spectrum and there's lots of overlap, but that also seems to be a function of testosterone. So the people I interviewed described taking testosterone and then feeling that their emotions were blunted. They couldn't access their emotions. They stopped crying, and that anger was the only accessible intense emotion.

   13. JRJoe Rogan35:05

       Oh, that seems silly.

   14. CHCarole Hooven35:05

       And it, that's just-

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:07

       That's ... As a person who's male, that's silly.

   16. CHCarole Hooven35:08

       Yes. So, that was one person I talked to. That is not a universal experience. And there aren't big sex differences in anger in the first place. There are h- large sex differences in physical aggression. Like, really fucking somebody up is more of a, you know, much higher rates of that in men. Killing people, you know, that's basically-

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:28

       Oh, yeah.

   18. CHCarole Hooven35:28

       ... all men. Like, serious physical violence where you put yourself at risk, there's a large sex difference there. But when you sort of move to the middle and you're talking about anger and you're talking about throwing stuff and pushing and hitting, there's not a huge, um, sex difference there in term, at, at least in terms of, um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:46

       Lashing out with anger.

   20. CHCarole Hooven35:46

       ... interpersonal, um, romantic relationships too.

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:50

       Okay.

   22. CHCarole Hooven35:50

       But that's a- another area. But so the things that change in transgender people, uh, the biggest thing is sex and sexuality and sex drive. And then there's some evidence, a little bit of evidence about aggression, but that doesn't seem to be very pronounced.

9. 36:07 – 45:38

   Gender presentation and stereotypes: why norms constrain men more than women

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:07

      What's always interesting to me, that there's a lot of people that they sort of dismiss traditional, uh, gender stereotypes in terms of makeup and clothing and, and then ... And some of these people are actually not just dismissive of these stereotypes, but, um, they, they, they seem to think there's something wrong with them. They, they, they're insulting of these things. They think that these things are in somehow or another holding back women or holding back men. And what's odd to me is that it's celebrated in transgender people. So whenever a trans woman is, like, wearing a ton of makeup and short skirts and a lot of, like, nail polish and big hoop earrings, everybody's like, "You go, girl."

   2. CHCarole Hooven36:59

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:59

      No one is ever looking at that trans woman, saying like, "You are accepting these harmful gender stereotypes and embracing them." Right?

   4. CHCarole Hooven37:09

      Yeah. I-

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:10

      But it's part of what ... You know what I'm saying? Like-

   6. CHCarole Hooven37:12

      Yeah, I do, and I think that's so complicated because if you have gender dysphoria, if you're com- if you're really uncomfortable with your body and how it's sexed and you desperately, you know, you really ...... go into puberty and you're horrified at how your body is changing because it doesn't represent how you feel, then I can understand how you want to adopt maybe an ex- more extreme version of what you perceive the opposite sex to be like. So I get it, and I have sympathy for people who are suffering in that way. But it do- you're right that there is a sort of-

   7. JRJoe Rogan37:49

      Double standard.

   8. CHCarole Hooven37:50

      ... stereotyping-

   9. JRJoe Rogan37:51

      Yeah.

   10. CHCarole Hooven37:51

       ... of the gender role. Um, and that's, uh, it's just super complicated.

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:01

       It is super complicated.

   12. CHCarole Hooven38:02

       Um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:02

       And I, I also, I, uh, I understand it and I, I sympathize with them and I, I support them. Go do that.

   14. CHCarole Hooven38:11

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:11

       Wear all the makeup, wear all the fake eyelashes, go crazy. But why do you give a shit when women do it? When biological women do it?

   16. CHCarole Hooven38:18

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:18

       Like, why does anybody care? Like, that's what they like. Like, there's clearly something different.

   18. CHCarole Hooven38:23

       Right. Right. Right. I see what you're saying.

   19. JRJoe Rogan38:23

       Like, look at you.

   20. CHCarole Hooven38:24

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan38:24

       Okay, you're very conservatively dressed, but why do I see your whole arms? Like, what's that about? But imagine-

   22. CHCarole Hooven38:30

       'Cause I'm psyched 'cause I work out. I'm like, "What can I get some on?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan38:31

       'Cause you got the guns. But if I was dressed like you, it'd be odd, right? If you were wearing a dress.

   24. CHCarole Hooven38:36

       Oh, I sup- Well, men wear tank tops and show off, but-

   25. JRJoe Rogan38:38

       Very rarely. Not for formal things like this-

   26. CHCarole Hooven38:41

       Oh. Right. Right. Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       ... or a podcast or-

   28. CHCarole Hooven38:43

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:43

       It would be odd if someone just showed up here with a wife beater on, it would be odd.

   30. CHCarole Hooven38:46

       So I wish that weren't odd. I, in the book, that is something that I write about at the end, what I want for my son. Here's where I start getting emotional. It's really important to me that he feel free to express himself in whatever way he wants, and I wish... This is what I get upset about when I teach, that there are these restrictive norms and people who feel different feel they just have to break out of that norm instead of feeling comfortable just being who they are with their bodies. And, um, you know, I wish, like, that he could wear whatever clothes he wants and-
10. 45:38 – 1:02:17

    Truth vs comfort in academia: ‘two sexes,’ gametes, and social-media enforcement

    1. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Now, when you set out to do this, what, obviously, you have a son, you're a woman, you're trying to understand these things. Like, did you approach this from a, a n- did you have a neutral position? Did you have a bias going in here? Did you, did you, uh, w- were your biases confirmed or were you surprised by anything?

    2. CHCarole Hooven45:58

       So I, uh, try to have a neutral position. My position is firmly, uh, pro-science and the truth, and I'm extremely passionate about, uh, I, I get, I tear up talking about this. It's so important to me. But I think that it's respectful, it res- it's the, you're respecting another person's intelligence and ability to handle the truth, um, is so much more respectful than giving them information that might make them feel good. Um, so, and I don't even remember what your question was now, uh-

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Whether or not you went in this with a neutral perspective or you-

    4. CHCarole Hooven46:40

       Yeah. Okay, so my perspective is that science is the way to get at the truth, and I'm a, I love teaching this class because I get a lot of students who are not scientists, think they don't like science, but they wanna know about themselves and their bodies and, and we ta- we don't just talk about sex and testosterone. We talk about hunger and diabetes and energy, um, and parenting and how hormones shape all these different kinds of behaviors. So then they love learning that, and it's not stuffy. It's fun and, and it's accessible, and they, through science, they're learning about who they are and how they work, and they find that tremendously satisfying. So I'm gonna tell a little story about science and what it meant to me in learning about testosterone, and that is, I describe this in my book. Um, and when I was a grad student, I, so I went to, I changed my career late in life, and, uh, so I was in, gosh, I guess I was in my early, very early 30s, and I got accepted to Harvard, and I felt like an imposter, like a lot of people do. "You know, I don't belong here."

    5. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       What were you doing before that?

    6. CHCarole Hooven47:53

       "They made a mistake." So I'll just back up and say that I was not a stellar high school student. This is hard to admit to such a big, um, audience because I teach at Harvard, but it's also a lesson, um, like, I was at the bottom of my class in high school. I was somebody, I grew up in Weston, um, and, um-

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       Weston, Massachusetts?

    8. CHCarole Hooven48:15

       Weston, sorry, Mass, yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:17

       (laughs) You did the s-

    10. CHCarole Hooven48:17

        Um, sorry, I'm just, Weston 'cause I know that you lived-

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:20

        Newton.

    12. CHCarole Hooven48:20

        ... in Newton or something.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:21

        Yeah.

    14. CHCarole Hooven48:21

        And, um, I skipped classes and just had, like, very little parental oversight, and, um, was kind of a party animal, but kinda destructive. Like, I, I really, f- and so I ended up failing gym and English, which is ironic because I just wrote a book and I'm extremely athletic, but, um-

    15. JRJoe Rogan48:43

        (laughs)

    16. CHCarole Hooven48:43

        So I failed gym and English. I just didn't go. I just blew it off, and I didn't know, which is a lesson because I have students at Harvard who are just f- totally freaked out about getting a B+. And I just feel like, I always tell them, I'm like, "Look, l- you don't know where I came from and yet, what you can change, and, you know, and plus, you, uh, a B+ is, is great, and you're gonna be where you're supposed to be. Just, like, work hard and be disciplined, et cetera." Um, so that was my high school experience. So, um, and then I went to this great college, Antioch College, but then I didn't know what I wanted to be, but it was, um, I graduated from college in 1988, and I was, like, really excited about computers, (laughs) which is so funny because they, like, um, computers were sort of fairly, fairly new, and I wanted a job where I could work with computers. Um, so I just got this job in financial software, and, and that's, there was, like, 10 years of just doing this financial software stuff, but I was just doing that...... so I could get my life together. I had a l- I really had a lot of growing up to do. I just wanted to live on my own and be responsible and have a job and save money. But I traveled a lot and I read a lot, and then I figured out that I wanted to understand human behavior. So I quit my job and I applied to grad school. So that's kind of the long story about how I got there. But again, I just forgot what you-

    17. JRJoe Rogan50:02

        So w- I asked you if you came into with, uh, oh-

    18. CHCarole Hooven50:05

        Oh. (laughs) Right. But I think you asked something about the background, but, um, so... Oh, so when you want to know, I was gonna tell my story of what happened, my, why I felt like an imposter, is partly because I didn't have the same background that my Harvard students have. They were all, like, had their shit together from the get-go. And they were, you know, had these habits, they were, uh, that enabled them to be successful. They were getting As in high school, and president of this, and captain of that, and they're really mature, amazing students. And that just wasn't me. It took me a long time to kind of get to a place where I felt like I belonged, and, um, I'm probably still not there. But, so I was in this seminar, this grad student seminar. I think it was my first year at Harvard, and it was the evolution of human sexuality. And, um, we were, I, we were reading a paper on the evolution of rape. And there was this explanation about rape in the scorpion fly and this implication that, um, humans rape, men rape because they, it's an adaptation, uh, if they don't have the resources to acquire a mate, they'll just use rape. And I had to comment on the paper. It was my turn to talk. And I was getting really emotional, and I felt, I was pissed off and I just was like, "Why isn't anyone else outraged here?" You know? And so, I remember just my eyes were watery and I was kind of angry and I said, "This guy's an asshole."

    19. JRJoe Rogan51:38

        (laughs)

    20. CHCarole Hooven51:38

        Like, the guy who wrote the paper. And, um, that wasn't, you know, an appropriate scientific response. That was an emotional response. And I will just say, if you jump forward, that kind of response now is kind of, is, seems to be in many places okay, that you're supposed to have an emotional response. And if you do, then maybe we shouldn't have assigned that paper. But I have an experience with rape, and so it was upsetting to me. And, um, I didn't want rape to be a natural part of human behavior. I wanted it to be something pathological. And, um, so I was having a hard time analyzing the data, but the professor kept saying, "Look at the data, look at the data, look at the data." And this, to me, was one of the most formative experiences, because it helped me realize how important the truth is and that I can use science as a tool to get to the truth and understand myself and understand my life and understand even men or things that have been troublesome to me, even if it is painful. And that pain is okay, and I grew from that pain. And I learned that I can use science to understand. And ultimately, it made me feel better and more empowered and more in control. So my bias is like so firmly with the science and how important it is, and how I was respected as a young scientist and given the truth and sort of really encouraged to, to look at the data and analyze the science instead of like give in to my emotions and believe what I wanted to believe. I don't want to give anyone else like a line of bullshit about anything, bec- like that the sexes are on a spectrum, you know, that there's five sexes, because maybe that makes people feel good about being different. You can feel good about being different even with the truth that there are two sexes. That's okay, you know? We can talk about that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:36

        But why do you think there's-

    22. CHCarole Hooven53:36

        It's just confusing to be fed lies about science just because it makes people feel better.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:43

        But what is this shift? Where do you think this shift happened in academia where it became-

    24. CHCarole Hooven53:48

        (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:49

        A b- does it drive you crazy?

    26. CHCarole Hooven53:51

        Uh, it's so sad and discouraging to me. I mean, no, it makes me want to leave. Like, it, it's really... It's sad, like socially it's sad, because I can't talk about what I wanna talk about. I showed you some of the things my students said.

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:08

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CHCarole Hooven54:09

        They want the truth, but they're afraid to speak up. Sorry, I don't, it's, I didn't-

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:13

        No, okay. It's okay.

    30. CHCarole Hooven54:15

        Um, it's just, it, science really changed my life. It is what helped me go from somebody who was confused and had no direction and lacked confidence, you know, to, to like finding something that works for me, finding something that's so powerful to explain the world. And, um, and I love helping other people do the same thing and have a l- you know, imbue in them a love for science and how powerful it is. And I just feel like it's getting shat on, um, because I don't, I don't have a great explanation. I think social media has a lot to do with it, but, um...
11. 1:02:17 – 1:28:00

    Trans women in sports: testosterone, puberty advantages, and fairness vs inclusion

    1. CHCarole Hooven1:02:17

       ... is... So, the athletics is a huge issue right now because there's... I wrote about this in the book also because there's questions about whether trans women should be able to participate on women's sports teams. So, the big issue is, well, does testosterone really confer an athletic advantage? And I write about these examples where people are arguing that it doesn't. It is insane. Of course it does. And it's not just common sense. There is tons and tons of evidence.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:02:44

       Find that quote... There was that tweet by Amy Alkon who, uh, tweeted, uh... I sent it to you before, about the differences in sprinting speeds. And she was talking about a woman's world record, I believe in a 400 meter.

    3. CHCarole Hooven1:02:58

       That's 10%, right.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:02:59

       And that 300 high school kids that are boys every year break that.

    5. CHCarole Hooven1:03:05

       Yes.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:03:06

       They break the-

    7. CHCarole Hooven1:03:07

       Yeah. Oh, yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:03:07

       ... the women's world record for sprinting.

    9. CHCarole Hooven1:03:09

       Yeah. No, it's... And it's testosterone. I mean, it's very-

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:03:12

        There it is.

    11. CHCarole Hooven1:03:12

        ... clear that that's what it is.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:03:13

        The fastest female sprinter in the world is American runner Allyson Felix, a woman with more gold medals than Usain Bolt. Her lifetime best for the 400-meter run is 49.26 seconds. Based on 2018 data, nearly 300 high school boys in the US alone could beat it. That's fucking bananas.

    13. CHCarole Hooven1:03:32

        Okay. But people are saying, um, that... Some people are saying that that advantage is cultural.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

        Yeah.

    15. CHCarole Hooven1:03:40

        And, um, it's not, and I outline in the book pretty clearly what going through male puberty and having high testosterone in puberty, how that changes... I mean, you know, you're jacked and part of it's 'cause you take testosterone. And so you can speak from personal experience about the change in your athletic capacity and muscle volume. It's all super clear. There's no doubt that you, you have increased hemoglobin, you have increased muscle math, you have a l- muscle mass, you have a larger body size, you have increased bone strength, all directly a result of high testosterone. And they don't... It doesn't-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:04:14

        Right. But this is-

    17. CHCarole Hooven1:04:14

        It doesn't go away when you reduce testosterone.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:15

        But in their defense, it doesn't all go away when you reduce testosterone, but some of it does go away.

    19. CHCarole Hooven1:04:20

        Oh, certainly.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:04:20

        Yeah.

    21. CHCarole Hooven1:04:20

        So, the hemoglobin plummets. I mean, it depends... If you, if you go... If you're, um, male to female, hemoglobin plummets. And hemoglobin is important because it carries oxygen and it has to do with lung capacity and, um, aerobic capacity and power. And so that's an important, uh, decline. But muscle mass does not... I mean, it's totally variable, but typically, it does not go down to, uh, typical female levels. There's definitely an advantage that's retained.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:04:49

        There's also an advantage-

    23. CHCarole Hooven1:04:49

        I mean, bone strength and height-

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:04:50

        Yeah.

    25. CHCarole Hooven1:04:50

        ... and grip and all that stuff is re- is retained.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:54

        And just the, the shape of the bones, it's very different. It's, uh, it's a strange time when it comes to the, the reality of the differences between genders. It's a, a str- very strange time because it doesn't, it doesn't... Like, we've... No one's ever said, like, men are better than women or women are better than men. We're just different things. And transgender people are different as well. It's all... We're all just different. We should be accepting of each other and loving of each other and give each other equal rights and laws and, and respect. But when it comes to athletics, there's a reason why men don't compete against women. And I had this bizarre conversation with this guy once who, uh, has this TV show where he kind of debunks things, but when I got him alone to talk about these things, like, without a team of writers, when you, you leave someone to just their opinions, and he had these sort of very progressive talking points that he would kind of blurt out. But then when I started challenging him on these and-

    27. CHCarole Hooven1:05:49

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:05:49

        ... going deep, you realize, like, he didn't really think about this. He just wanted to appear that he was progressive, which I am. I am a progressive person. I know I look like a meathead, but I'm very progressive.

    29. CHCarole Hooven1:06:00

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:01

        I, I just look at reality though. I grew up with martial arts and with fighting, and I know there's a fucking radical difference between males and females. It's radical. It's not, it's not small. It's not subtle. It's radical. When you-

Episode duration: 3:01:29