Joe Rogan Experience #1665 - Carole Hooven

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. CHCarole Hooven0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) Hello.

   4. CHCarole Hooven0:15

      Hi, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Welcome. Thanks for doing this.

   6. CHCarole Hooven0:17

      Thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Appreciate it.

   8. CHCarole Hooven0:17

      Thank you so much for having me.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      My pleasure. I'm excited to talk about this. What, what made you want to write about testosterone? What was the motivation behind this?

   10. CHCarole Hooven0:25

       So, I'll give you the short story f- first-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       Okay.

   12. CHCarole Hooven0:28

       ... and then, uh, later, I can give you the longer story.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       You can give me the longer story.

   14. CHCarole Hooven0:31

       The longer story involves chimpanzees.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Oh.

   16. CHCarole Hooven0:33

       So that's kind of fun.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       One, one of my favorite subjects.

   18. CHCarole Hooven0:35

       Um, but the short story is (sighs) that t- I teach at Harvard about hormones. I teach a course, m- um, behavioral ... Well, it's on behavioral endocrinology. It's called Hormones and Behavior. And I've taught that, uh, for a long time now. And I got, I got my PhD at Harvard, studying testosterone and behavior, studying sex differences and the way we think and process information. And I love ... I've just love the topic. I love how much understanding testosterone helps me understand the world, understand men. I'm not a man. I don't really understand men, uh, or how they work. But understanding this hormone really has helped me a lot. And then, in teaching about endocrinology, and specifically testosterone, I get so much feedback from students about how it changes their lives, changes how they understand themselves personally, how they understand their relationships, how they understand the world. And it's empowering for them, and it's been empowering for me. And (sighs) so, I've just always had this natural, intellectual enthusiasm for this topic, a- and, um, but I'd say, in the last five years, I felt like the science was coming under attack. And there's been kind of (sighs) a program to dismantle the science of testosterone and how it shapes behavior, particularly the evolutionary basis of behavior, um, has kind of come under attack, the idea that there, that sex differences are grounded in biology, and I know that testosterone is a really important part of that. And, uh, there's a movement to kind of discredit that science or downplay the importance of biology, and specifically testosterone, in our lives, and especially in sex differences. And I'm fascinated by sex differences, and I'm fascinated by how evolution shapes sex differences across different species and how it works. And, uh ... So that's ultimately why I wrote the book, 'cause I kinda wanna get all the science out there and kinda push back against what I see as an attack on really good science. There's nothing wrong with understanding who we are from a biological point of view. Uh, and I think we should all be open to that and learn as much as we can about who we are and how we work.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:53

       Yeah. I, I agree with you, and I ... but I also think it's fascinating, when I watch (clears throat) the attack on the science of biology, the science of how ... If you w- like, I, I think that if we were an objective observer, like something other than human, and we're watching human beings, we would be really interested in the, the sex differences between the male and the females, and what's ... Why are there th- th- there's, like, this real clear pattern of behavior on both sides. Obviously, there's a spectrum in that pattern, but d- depending upon the levels of hormones and the genetic variance, there's a lot of, like, consistency. And what is causing this, and what is ... You know, what is it about male behavior that leads to this and female behavior that livs- leads to that? But then, you get into this weird thing where ideology has somehow or another overtaken science with a lot of human beings today. So they're willing to abandon science if it's inconvenient for their ideology. And it's very strange, 'cause you see really intelligent people doing this.

   20. CHCarole Hooven3:59

       Yes. Yes.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       Which is where it's really spooky, because they're scared of being chastised and attacked on Twitter. They're scared of being canceled. So they're scared of going against the mainstream, which is ideologically based instead of scientifically based.

   22. CHCarole Hooven4:14

       (clicks tongue) That's right. And (sighs) I think the fear is that the science is getting in the way of the ideology. So we ... I agree with most of the goals of the people who are ideologically motivated. We wanna reduce human suffering. We want to, um, have ... make sure that we have, uh, equal human rights for people who have all kinds of differences. And so I agree with all that. But I don't think that, if science tells us that some of these differences are grounded in biology, that means that, A, these traits that may be, uh, like extreme male aggression. That doesn't mean that that's immutable. I mean, we have tons of evidence that it's not immutable. Humans have control over their behavior. It depends heavily on the culture. So, denying the importance of, say, testosterone in male aggression isn't gonna change the way that sort of differences in our natures or the impetus for males to feel, um, more than females, that they, uh, want to be physically aggressive or to respond aggressively in certain situations. Um, and I like that you said that there's ... you implied that there's lots of overlap in behavior between males and females and the degree to which that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       For sure.

   24. CHCarole Hooven5:33

       ... is grounded in biology. So the point isn't - and I just wanna make it really clear - at the beginning, it's not that females are like this and males are like that in human- in humans or in other species. And especially, you know, culture plays such a huge role in how we develop and how we express ourselves. But even apart from culture, there are differences on average. So there are some females who are highly physically aggressive, and there are many males who are really emotional and sensitive and totally peaceful. Can I say what ... that you just said? You tear up sometimes?

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:05

       I cry all the time.

   26. CHCarole Hooven6:06

       Okay. So you're-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:06

       I cry mostly for happy things.

   28. CHCarole Hooven6:08

       Okay. So yeah, no, and I, I just cry when I'm moved or passionate. I cry a lot, and I actually talk about that in the book because there's a relationship with testosterone there that we can talk about later, which is really interesting. But the point is that, you know, my book ...... T is not about, uh, not trying to explain why m- males are one way and females are another way. But why we're different on average, why we have somewhat different natures.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CHCarole Hooven6:34

       And testosterone is, to me, the most powerful way to understand those differences in our natures, you know, from an evolutionary point of view and looking at how we as animals, as mammals, um, try to maximize our reproductive success, right? And that's, so that's what testosterone does, is it helps males maximize basically the number of offspring they have through increasing mating opportunities.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   But the question is…

   1. CHCarole Hooven15:00

      um, an area that basically controls the action of the pituitary, which is kind of the master gland for controlling all of our many, many, uh, hormones in our body. And the sexually dimorphic nucleus... So, sexually dimorphic means basically different sizes or shapes in each sex. So, testosterone increases the size of this. We know that it increases the size of this part of the, um, hypothalamus, and then that predicts male sexual behavior, mounting behavior, say, in rats. So, we know that sex differences in testosterone in many non-human animals do change, uh, do help to explain differences in the size of different areas of the brain. But there are also really small differences in just parts of the brain, um, and how neurons, say, branch or make connections. So, they tend not to be, in humans, as far as we know, big, obvious differences like the, um, SDNPOA. But there are some, uh, suspected differences in human brains, um, that are due to testosterone differences, but we don't have that kind of evidence. I guess, I'm not an expert on the brain, um, differences. But it's, uh, subtle differences in, say, branching or neuronal connections or the birth and death of neurons in utero. So, differences in testosterone can, um, cause differences in the, um, population of neurons or the number of cell bodies in different areas or the way that they make connections.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:34

      But the question is like, as they transition. So, if someone transitions-

   3. CHCarole Hooven16:37

      Yes.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:37

      ... from male to female, d- what are we m- how are we measuring the fact that their brains have differences than people that were genetically-

   5. CHCarole Hooven16:46

      Oh, right. Yeah, we don't. We don't.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:48

      We don't.

   7. CHCarole Hooven16:48

      It's an assumption-

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      Oh.

   9. CHCarole Hooven16:50

      ... that, um, because they were exposed to... So, a- a male is ex-... Because he has testes, he's exposed to male levels-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:57

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CHCarole Hooven16:58

       ... of testosterone in utero, so the assumption is that their brain has been masculinized. But it's a good question because there's a lot of controversy around brain differences-

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       Yeah.

   13. CHCarole Hooven17:07

       ... and whether there really are any. But my understanding of that literature is that, um, brains can be sexed by experts in humans with 85% accuracy. But I don't think there is one really loud signal there that can be attributed to testosterone exposure in utero. But the point I was trying to make is just that there are probably differences in the brain, um, that were shaped during that organizational period, um, in transgender people, so that we shouldn't necessarily assume that if they change their hormones in adulthood, that they will be sort of just like the other sex psychologically, 'cause there may be other differences in their brain due to having high exposure to testosterone.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Okay. S-

   15. CHCarole Hooven17:58

       But I can tell you some of the differences that we then see-

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Sure.

   17. CHCarole Hooven18:00

       ... once they transition. Um, d- did you have a question, s-

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       No, no. Y- you c- go ahead.

   19. CHCarole Hooven18:07

       Okay. So, one of the biggest... What do you think the biggest, one of the biggest sex differences is in, uh, human behavior or human psychology? What would you...

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       (sighs) Um, I don't know. W- would it be aggression?

   21. CHCarole Hooven18:24

       There's aggression, yep. That's big.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:26

       W- you tell me-

   23. CHCarole Hooven18:27

       There's one other thing.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       Another thing?

   25. CHCarole Hooven18:28

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       What?

   27. CHCarole Hooven18:29

       Sex.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       Sex?

   29. CHCarole Hooven18:30

       Sex.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:30

       The males want more sex?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   But yet they're still…

   1. CHCarole Hooven30:00

      So it seems (laughs) that, that ex- ... so that full body feeling and the whole body being a, a sexual organ is a function of testosterone differences because when, um ... for trans men, the experience changes from the full body experience to a sharper, more intense, more acute, more time limited experience. So it's more intense at the peak, and, uh, but it seems-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:29

      But yet they're still getting an orgasm in the same method that a woman would get an orgasm.

   3. CHCarole Hooven30:34

      What do you mean method?

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:35

      'Cause they still have the same equipment.

   5. CHCarole Hooven30:38

      No, no, no. Oh.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:39

      A trans m-

   7. CHCarole Hooven30:40

      Yes, yes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:40

      A trans man.

   9. CHCarole Hooven30:42

      Yes, yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       So you change ... They change the orgasm-

   11. CHCarole Hooven30:45

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       ... but you still have female equipment-

   13. CHCarole Hooven30:47

       Yes.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       ... essentially.

   15. CHCarole Hooven30:47

       Yes. So that-

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:50

       Interesting.

   17. CHCarole Hooven30:50

       But the experience changes, and the body ... So ... And if you go the opposite direction, you, you soften that intensity.

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:58

       Mm.

   19. CHCarole Hooven30:59

       And there's more of a the whole body is, is responsive-

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:04

       But this is-

   21. CHCarole Hooven31:04

       ... in a way.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       You're confusing the shit outta me.

   23. CHCarole Hooven31:06

       Okay, sorry, I'm probably con- confused.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:07

       So this is if you go the other way-

   25. CHCarole Hooven31:08

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:08

       ... you're talking about male to female.

   27. CHCarole Hooven31:10

       Yes.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:11

       And then male to female have orgasm, but are they keeping the equipment? See, this is where it get-

   29. CHCarole Hooven31:16

       You can keep ... So that, that is-

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       Yeah, but if you can't ... How are you getting an orgasm without that?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yes. Yes. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      uh, other cultures, like Islamic cultures-

   2. CHCarole Hooven45:01

      Yes. Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      ... where they cover the women up completely.

   4. CHCarole Hooven45:03

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      And they take a, a completely opposite approach.

   6. CHCarole Hooven45:05

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:06

      It's, uh, it's fascinating, right? If you look at the, the real, raw difference between male and female wardrobe, it's very, very different. I mean, that's, that might be one of the biggest differences amongst us, except for the fact that you guys carry the babies.

   8. CHCarole Hooven45:22

      Yeah, and you have, I mean, culturally, it's really interesting-

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:25

      Yeah.

   10. CHCarole Hooven45:25

       ... to look at different cultures and how they vary in terms of those sex differences. Um, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:34

       It's very weird, right?

   12. CHCarole Hooven45:36

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:38

       Now, when you set out to do this, what, obviously, you have a son, you're a woman, you're trying to understand these things. Like, did you approach this from a, a n- did you have a neutral position? Did you have a bias going in here? Did you, did you, uh, w- were your biases confirmed or were you surprised by anything?

   14. CHCarole Hooven45:58

       So I, uh, try to have a neutral position. My position is firmly, uh, pro-science and the truth, and I'm extremely passionate about, uh, I, I get, I tear up talking about this. It's so important to me. But I think that it's respectful, it res- it's the, you're respecting another person's intelligence and ability to handle the truth, um, is so much more respectful than giving them information that might make them feel good. Um, so, and I don't even remember what your question was now, uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       Whether or not you went in this with a neutral perspective or you-

   16. CHCarole Hooven46:40

       Yeah. Okay, so my perspective is that science is the way to get at the truth, and I'm a, I love teaching this class because I get a lot of students who are not scientists, think they don't like science, but they wanna know about themselves and their bodies and, and we ta- we don't just talk about sex and testosterone. We talk about hunger and diabetes and energy, um, and parenting and how hormones shape all these different kinds of behaviors. So then they love learning that, and it's not stuffy. It's fun and, and it's accessible, and they, through science, they're learning about who they are and how they work, and they find that tremendously satisfying. So I'm gonna tell a little story about science and what it meant to me in learning about testosterone, and that is, I describe this in my book. Um, and when I was a grad student, I, so I went to, I changed my career late in life, and, uh, so I was in, gosh, I guess I was in my early, very early 30s, and I got accepted to Harvard, and I felt like an imposter, like a lot of people do. "You know, I don't belong here."

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       What were you doing before that?

   18. CHCarole Hooven47:53

       "They made a mistake." So I'll just back up and say that I was not a stellar high school student. This is hard to admit to such a big, um, audience because I teach at Harvard, but it's also a lesson, um, like, I was at the bottom of my class in high school. I was somebody, I grew up in Weston, um, and, um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       Weston, Massachusetts?

   20. CHCarole Hooven48:15

       Weston, sorry, Mass, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:17

       (laughs) You did the s-

   22. CHCarole Hooven48:17

       Um, sorry, I'm just, Weston 'cause I know that you lived-

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:20

       Newton.

   24. CHCarole Hooven48:20

       ... in Newton or something.

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:21

       Yeah.

   26. CHCarole Hooven48:21

       And, um, I skipped classes and just had, like, very little parental oversight, and, um, was kind of a party animal, but kinda destructive. Like, I, I really, f- and so I ended up failing gym and English, which is ironic because I just wrote a book and I'm extremely athletic, but, um-

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:43

       (laughs)

   28. CHCarole Hooven48:43

       So I failed gym and English. I just didn't go. I just blew it off, and I didn't know, which is a lesson because I have students at Harvard who are just f- totally freaked out about getting a B+. And I just feel like, I always tell them, I'm like, "Look, l- you don't know where I came from and yet, what you can change, and, you know, and plus, you, uh, a B+ is, is great, and you're gonna be where you're supposed to be. Just, like, work hard and be disciplined, et cetera." Um, so that was my high school experience. So, um, and then I went to this great college, Antioch College, but then I didn't know what I wanted to be, but it was, um, I graduated from college in 1988, and I was, like, really excited about computers, (laughs) which is so funny because they, like, um, computers were sort of fairly, fairly new, and I wanted a job where I could work with computers. Um, so I just got this job in financial software, and, and that's, there was, like, 10 years of just doing this financial software stuff, but I was just doing that...... so I could get my life together. I had a l- I really had a lot of growing up to do. I just wanted to live on my own and be responsible and have a job and save money. But I traveled a lot and I read a lot, and then I figured out that I wanted to understand human behavior. So I quit my job and I applied to grad school. So that's kind of the long story about how I got there. But again, I just forgot what you-

   29. JRJoe Rogan50:02

       So w- I asked you if you came into with, uh, oh-

   30. CHCarole Hooven50:05

       Oh. (laughs) Right. But I think you asked something about the background, but, um, so... Oh, so when you want to know, I was gonna tell my story of what happened, my, why I felt like an imposter, is partly because I didn't have the same background that my Harvard students have. They were all, like, had their shit together from the get-go. And they were, you know, had these habits, they were, uh, that enabled them to be successful. They were getting As in high school, and president of this, and captain of that, and they're really mature, amazing students. And that just wasn't me. It took me a long time to kind of get to a place where I felt like I belonged, and, um, I'm probably still not there. But, so I was in this seminar, this grad student seminar. I think it was my first year at Harvard, and it was the evolution of human sexuality. And, um, we were, I, we were reading a paper on the evolution of rape. And there was this explanation about rape in the scorpion fly and this implication that, um, humans rape, men rape because they, it's an adaptation, uh, if they don't have the resources to acquire a mate, they'll just use rape. And I had to comment on the paper. It was my turn to talk. And I was getting really emotional, and I felt, I was pissed off and I just was like, "Why isn't anyone else outraged here?" You know? And so, I remember just my eyes were watery and I was kind of angry and I said, "This guy's an asshole."
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Well, they also get…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      the current ideology, which is to-

   2. CHCarole Hooven1:00:01

      Well, they also get a lot of approval, a lot of social approval.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      That's what I'm saying.

   4. CHCarole Hooven1:00:05

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      You get a lot of social approval and, more importantly, you avoid the criticism. You- you avoid the harsh hate.

   6. CHCarole Hooven1:00:12

      I don't know. I don't know. I think when you get that much social approval from other smart people, you feel like this is the right thing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Right. But if you step out of that, then you get hated on.

   8. CHCarole Hooven1:00:22

      Yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

      And that's worse. The social approval's great and s- for sure people do that. They virtual signal left and right online.

   10. CHCarole Hooven1:00:29

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:29

       It's like one of the main activities on Twitter.

   12. CHCarole Hooven1:00:32

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       But the one thing that they d- happen to do while doing that is avoid the hate that you get from stepping on that third rail of, you know, you- you, when you step out of line and start saying things that maybe you actually believe but aren't a part of the orthodoxy.

   14. CHCarole Hooven1:00:48

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       Then you get hated on.

   16. CHCarole Hooven1:00:50

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       And piled on.

   18. CHCarole Hooven1:00:51

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

       And that's terrifying for people.

   20. CHCarole Hooven1:00:52

       Yeah. And that's why I wrote the book, because it's not just social media. It is, I have air quotes here, it is the "science" that is coming out now is m- uh, there, about testosterone, um, there are books coming out and there are even studies coming out that are completely designed to show that testosterone, uh...... differences are less than we thought, you know, that there aren't really large sex differences in testosterone, that there's an overlap in testosterone that's just not that powerful and important, which means we can celebrate everybody as really being, um, sexless, you know, that there's no such thing as male and female. Testosterone really doesn't do that much, or, or females have much higher testosterone than we thought and that, that just to blur the biological differences so that people... I guess the agenda is so that fe- people feel more com- more comfortable expressing themselves and their gender as they see fit, which I just think you should do anyway. Let's promote that.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       You should do that. But the thing is, it's not true.

   22. CHCarole Hooven1:01:57

       Let's just do that.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       That's the problem with it. I, I remember watching this YouTube video where this woman was talking about the, the differences between males and females were all cultural, and there's no difference-

   24. CHCarole Hooven1:02:07

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

       ... between males and females, even with strength and athletics. And I was like-

   26. CHCarole Hooven1:02:11

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       ... "This is one of the dumbest conversations I've ever heard anybody speak out loud."

   28. CHCarole Hooven1:02:16

       But that-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

       It's just so stupid.

   30. CHCarole Hooven1:02:17

       ... is... So, the athletics is a huge issue right now because there's... I wrote about this in the book also because there's questions about whether trans women should be able to participate on women's sports teams. So, the big issue is, well, does testosterone really confer an athletic advantage? And I write about these examples where people are arguing that it doesn't. It is insane. Of course it does. And it's not just common sense. There is tons and tons of evidence.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:21:01

   Yes. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:00

      comes to sanctioned events like powerlifting, there's a, there's a giant issue right now with the Olympics.

   2. CHCarole Hooven1:15:05

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:15:06

      Where they're allowing a transgender male-

   4. CHCarole Hooven1:15:08

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:15:08

      ... who's breaking all kinds of world records compete in a-

   6. CHCarole Hooven1:15:12

      Or trans female.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:13

      Trans... I'm sorry.

   8. CHCarole Hooven1:15:14

      Trans woman.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:14

      You're right. You're right.

   10. CHCarole Hooven1:15:15

       Trans woman.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:16

       Trans woman.

   12. CHCarole Hooven1:15:16

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:16

       Uh, transgender male to female. Sorry. Who's competing against females and breaking... Well, this is also part of the problem, right? We don't see the opposite.

   14. CHCarole Hooven1:15:24

       No (laughs) .

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:24

       There's not a lot of trans males that are kicking ass.

   16. CHCarole Hooven1:15:26

       No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:26

       It's kind of crazy. Crazy.

   18. CHCarole Hooven1:15:27

       So, so what do you think should happen?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:15:30

       Trans people should compete against trans people. If there's so many of them that we have to change all these rules, why not have a transgender league? Why not have a transgender division? We have two divisions, right? There's a reason why we have two divisions. Why? For fairness.

   20. CHCarole Hooven1:15:44

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:15:44

       Men and women don't compete against each oth- each other for what Amy Alkon highlighted.

   22. CHCarole Hooven1:15:49

       This issue is not gonna go away.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:15:50

       This doesn't... It's not gonna go away, but it just doesn't mean people aren't compassionate. There's a reason why males don't compete against females. And this is part of the thing that I had with this guy, with, you know, this TV show host, where I was telling him, "Okay, do you think that males should compete against females?" And he's like, "No." I go, "Well, what are you, what are we doing then?"

   24. CHCarole Hooven1:16:07

       But the way people are trying-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:08

       Because he's transgender.

   26. CHCarole Hooven1:16:09

       The way people are trying... So my feeling here is that the way to decide these issues is not wha- is not to pretend that males don't... that natal males do not have any kind of advantage or to, to suppress discussion of that or to suppress knowledge about testosterone. So I feel... So I, I feel like I know what the literature says, and there is an advantage. Natal males will have an advantage. But to me, that doesn't decide the issue. I think there is a really, you know, there is a case to be made that if you are legally female, you should be able to compete as a female. There's an ethical case there, but-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16:50

       Legally female meaning what?

   28. CHCarole Hooven1:16:51

       Well, if you have had your, uh, sex changed on your birth certificate say-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:16:55

       Right, but if there's physical advantages-

   30. CHCarole Hooven1:16:57

       ... and you're Canadian... No, no. So all I'm saying, yeah, and I agree, there's physical advantages-

Episode duration: 3:01:29