The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #1670 - David Sinclair
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,004 words- 0:00 – 5:03
Lex Fridman shoutout, dating culture, and the rise of “emoji language”
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- DSDavid Sinclair
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Hey, Joe.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Hello, David.
- JRJoe Rogan
Always good to see you, my friend. How are you?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, likewise. Feeling great.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, I enjoyed you on the Lex Fridman podcast. I learned some things.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Me too.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDavid Sinclair
I learned that I like the guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's the best.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Isn't he? Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a- such an unusual human being, a brilliant guy who's, uh, incredibly humble. He's, uh, both a martial artist-
- DSDavid Sinclair
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and a- an AI scientist. You know, he's- I love that guy. He's so- he's so special.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. A philosopher, a poet, intellect-
- JRJoe Rogan
Everything.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's, like, so- he's so real. Like, and he does- he- he pushes himself in these very unusual ways, and I think a lot of the reason why he does it to examine his own mind and to examine his own potential. Like, he does it as a scientist, but also as a brute. He's a weird combination of the two things 'cause, you know, he's a bl- like, a legitimate black belt in jujitsu. He's really good.
- DSDavid Sinclair
No way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
I didn't know that about him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God, you didn't know?
- DSDavid Sinclair
He doesn't look like he could hurt a fly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Lex will fuck you up.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh, God.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, Lex is, like, a legit black belt in jujitsu.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Very good.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Now I'm amazed. But-
- 5:03 – 7:39
Internet slang decoding (dead skulls, “cap/no cap”) and language evolving in real time
- DSDavid Sinclair
... this super change. And the kids adapt, but a lot of people our age, we're roughly the same age, are- are just trying to play catch up. You know, what- what's the latest emoji? In fact, laughing is a skull. Did you know that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Laughing? Yeah, dead.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. So you knew this.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDavid Sinclair
But th- I didn't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDavid Sinclair
My kids thought I was- I was an old guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's- you know where that comes from? That's black culture.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, yeah, uh, yeah, when- that's- that's something adopted. Mo- correct me if I'm wrong. It's like black Twitter, right?
- NANarrator
Uh, yeah, yeah, sure. I guess. I was gonna ask you if you guys know what a hat means.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- NANarrator
If you see the hat, 'cause it's- it's like it's two levels deep.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's a hat?
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- NANarrator
So a hat would mean cap.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cap.
- NANarrator
Or no cap.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- NANarrator
Do you know what that means? It means you're li-
- JRJoe Rogan
What, cap on someone?
- NANarrator
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Shoot them?
- NANarrator
It means you're lying.
- JRJoe Rogan
A what?
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- NANarrator
If someone says, like- if they make a statement and they say "That's no cap" or whatever, that means, like, "I'm not lying" or they're- they'll call out you're lying.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why cap?
- NANarrator
'Cause ca-
- 7:39 – 12:33
Modern stressors, technology treadmill, and why humans are becoming physically weaker
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, and for your study, for the study of human life extension and anti-aging, when you look at the stresses that are completely ... they're very novel to the human experience, like the stresses of social media, the stresses of cell phone use, the stresses of blue light, like staring at screens at night, like all that stuff. Like how much of an effect do you think that's having on people, and have we even quantified that yet?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Uh, we are quantifying it, and it's having a real negative effect. Mental health issues is, is going to be the medical problem of the 21st century. No question. There are companies that are doing these, uh, remote video chats with a psychologist or psychiatrist. They are booming. These are the next billion-dollar companies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you wanna, anyone wanna make money look into that. But we are living in a stressful world, and we, part of it's because we don't have much else to worry about. We've gotten rid of all the major worries.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wolves.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, we don't have to, we're not on the savanna anymore. We're not gonna get picked off by a, a cheetah. Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... a lion probably. But we built this world. We, you know, six million years ago, the first hominid ape-like thing was up in the tree walking around actually upright, which is interesting, right? Wasn't swinging from the branches. That picked up a stick, that animal picked up a stick, and that was, put us on this treadmill where we are today. Innovation after innovation, tool after tool after tool, but in response, our bodies have deteriorated. We only build our bodies as much as we need to. So if we've got tools and we can throw rocks, we don't need a lot of muscles, and in fact our head just expanded so we could build better tools faster and faster. And you know, the culmination of that is an iPhone, but where are we gonna be in another 100,000 years? It's really scary because this treadmill, we cannot get off it. There's no going back. There's no stationary, because we've got problems that we've already created from our own technology that we have to solve with better technology.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So that, we're a species that once we picked up that stick, we're on this path, and those things that got us here, there are actually four traits that I th- can think of that got us here, that make us different from all other animals. Those are our, not just our, what got us here, they're our biggest threat. And, but we also have to use them to get us out of this problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what are those?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well, let's see. So the first one is tool making. Okay, no big deal. We've got hands that have evolved to throw rocks, shoes, um, our feet actually are built for shoes. I- imagine that. They're all these genes that we've-
- JRJoe Rogan
Our feet are built for shoes?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, yeah. Our feet actually are, we've had shoes for so many years that we've got feet that fit shoes. It's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you ever seen what it looks like when those guys in the Amazon walk around with no feet and they develop these hand-like feet?
- DSDavid Sinclair
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, they don't have-
- NANarrator
They can pick up stuff?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no, you have to see this, because what happens is when they walk around barefoot in the dirt for so long, their toes develop the ability to grip. So they're gripping the ground. So their toes, instead of being like a person who wears shoes all the time where their toes are all connected, they splay out like hands. That's very strange.
- DSDavid Sinclair
That makes sense. I want, I want that. I wanna put it on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, my friend Steve Rinella was in, uh, Guyana and he was, uh, hanging out with his tribe and they li- they live in the forest and, like look at their feet.
- DSDavid Sinclair
That's incredible. Co- ... Maybe that's the way we should be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's the way I think people lived when they lived in the jungle forever. This is the Huaora- how do you say that? Huarani? Mm-mm. Um, this is the Ecuadorian rainforest, these people. This, um, when you look at their feet, mm-mm, I think it's soft ground and they're walking around in dirt all the time, and they, their feet splay out and they develop the ability to like push off of things with their feet. So it's, it's the exact opposite of the way human beings develop bunions where they smoosh their feet into, like, these shoes that don't really fit human feet, and then they get these weird bunions where their toes are pointed towards the other toes. This is the opposite. They spread out like fingers.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. Well, we can trace the genetics of this. We, we've become a very weak species. If you get into a, a fight with a, with, you know, let's say a chimp-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's say a house cat.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Even that will still bite you off your dog or eat your face off.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it'll fuck you up.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
We're at their mercy. But even the strongest human cannot beat your average chimp or any chimp, for that matter.
- 12:33 – 14:56
Actionable longevity basics: exercise intensity + meal skipping (fasting)
- JRJoe Rogan
And what are the steps that... Well, there's one thing that people can do, and exercise is a good one, right? Because of the fact that we live these sedentary lifestyles and most of the time people are sitting down, and there's a lot of time spent staring at screens. Uh, how important do you think it is to get out and do something, and what kind of an effect does that have? Like, what kind of quantifiable effect does that have on life extension?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh, it's very clear. There, there are two things you can do, uh, that are well-known to extend your lifespan. And when I say extend lifespan, I don't mean be older for longer. I mean, be healthier in your 80s and 90s. Like my dad, who's turning 82, who's got the, the physique and mental, uh, aptitude of a probably a 30-year-old. He's stronger than me. So, you want that. Okay, so what do you have to do? Well, you have to start early. You can't just start when you're 80. Although it helps, but it's not the best. So, you wanna just get out of the chair. Uh, people say walk, but I think it's better to lose your breath, become hypoxic, you know, hypoxia chambers or hyperbaric chambers. These stress the body a little bit. So, run for 10 minutes a few times a week. That's what I do. Um, and you don't have to run for hours. It's just 10 minutes is enough. Go biking. So, it, it's a fact that people who regularly ride bikes, and I think it, it was something like up to 80 miles, uh, a week, they would have a 40% less chance of having a heart attack than someone who didn't do that. So, it's a massive change, not just a little thing at the margins. Massive changes. The other thing is, which I do, uh, is to skip meals. So, it's not that hard. I, I now feel weird if I eat a, a meal for breakfast or lunch, and I try not to snack too. This, this idea of nutritionists, three meals a day plus snacks, never be hungry, is killing us. It really is. And we know that if you do these things to animals in controlled settings, they live longer, a lot longer, 20, sometimes 30% because they're healthier for longer. They don't get cancer and heart disease and, uh, dementia. So, I don't know why we don't all do that. I just think we just like to sit around and eat.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's why it's, it's good. It feels good to just-
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... eat chips, have-
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, but don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
... M&Ms.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... do what just feels good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, y- is there, like... So, when you talk about, um, how eating one meal a day can extend your life, is it because when you're eating all the time, you're taxing your digestive system, which taxes your resources, or is there some sort of a, a mechanism that leads to decay of the human body from overconsumption? Like, what is it?
- 14:56 – 15:37
Longevity genes, biological age testing, and reversing aging as a measurable target
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. So, overconsumption, or just consumption in general, makes your body complacent. And we know this in great detail at the molecular level. There are genes that respond to how much you're eating and what you're eating and whether you're exercising, and these are called longevity genes. And they give our body resilience and fight aging and slow down what we can now measure, the biological clock. So, I can take your blood, or actually now we've developed a very cheap test, just a swab, to be able to tell you very accurately how old you are, not based on how many times the earth goes around the sun. That's ridiculous. Age is just a number. You can actually take a swab, I can tell you how, how old you are really, but then using real science, tell you how to slow that down. And this is really cool, just in the last few years, we figured out you can reverse human aging as well.
- 15:37 – 21:20
Hyperbaric oxygen therapy: the Israeli study, telomeres, and epigenetic clocks
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, um, you and I have talked about this before, but I'm doing hyperbaric treatments. I've done 40 of them, 40 90-minute treatments over the past few months.
- DSDavid Sinclair
How's it feeling?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know. I feel pretty good.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Good.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I always feel good.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what's confusing, because I've been doing so much shit for so long.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. So, how do you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, I've never stopped.
- DSDavid Sinclair
You don't know it's working.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DSDavid Sinclair
That's the problem. So, this test that I'm developing, uh, which will come out later, uh, probably this year, is how do you know what you're doing is working? This is a big problem for everybody. And you don't stay motivated if you don't see it. We, we have dashboards on our cars. We know how fast we're going. We know if the engine needs work. With our bodies, we don't know that.
- JRJoe Rogan
We just guess.
- DSDavid Sinclair
And if you go to the doctor once a year, they don't know much either, to be honest. I mean, some of my best friends are doctors, real doctors. But what you need is one number at the top to rule them all, so you can measure things, you can wear rings, you can wear these wrist, uh, watches. I do a lot of that. I, I put these things on my chest. But it's really complicated. It's expensive. It's confusing. What you want is one number, and that's your biological age, which the test that I'm developing, and I want to democratize that, because right now the people who are doing all of this stuff are the really rich people. Uh, and most people either don't know or can't afford it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the hyperbaric treatments, the reason why I'm doing it-
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is because of that study out of Israel. You wanna tell people about that?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Uh, yeah. So, this is a, a study out of Israel. It's, um, a group that has, uh, a chamber built by Germans, which is ironic over in Israel, and they... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. So, I went in this chamber, actually. I visited them, uh, before COVID, some of my good friends over there. And what they do is they put you, you prob- I don't know if yours is the same, but this is a really big room and you can fit about 20 people in there. And they give you oxygen, so extra oxygen, and then they raise the pressure up and then they drop it and raise it. Is that what you've been doing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. And so what happens, I think, to the body is the body's going, "Oh, shit. I've got too much oxygen." So, it responds. And then the decreased oxygen makes you feel hypoxic, like running. So, this is a way of getting, in my view, exercise without having to exercise, and then you turn on these longevity genes. And I would bet, though I haven't proven it yet, though I am working on it, is that some of these genes that we've discovered, the sirtuins was discovered to be involved in aging, we didn't discover them, uh, are activated by this hyperbaric chamber. And what they showed in this paper that got probably you excited as well as everyone else is, they looked at the ends of chromosomes which shorten over time, the telomeres, and actually got longer after this, uh, therapy. And that is a sign of reversing aging. It's not as good as the clock that I'm developing, but it is a good sign.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they decided after examining these people from 90 min- or 90 days doing 60 sessions, that it gave you the equivalent of 20 years decrease in biological age because of the m- the length of the telomeres, which is super controversial, right?
- DSDavid Sinclair
It's certainly controversial. Everything's controversial in science till it's been repeated and you, it takes 10 years for people to believe it.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's also controversial the, uh, the concept of telomere length-
- DSDavid Sinclair
(sighs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... being equal to biological age.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well, y- yeah, it's one aspect. I would say that it's not that controversial, but it's, it's certainly not the only determinant of age. What I think, uh, and as I wrote about in, in my book, is that this biological clock, which is literally chemical changes to your DNA over time, is the real number. Telomeres are out there. They're like the, the wristwatch for, for health. They don't, that doesn't tell you your real age. It's an indicator.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DSDavid Sinclair
And the reason that it's not believed by a lot of people, and I'm kinda skeptical to some extent, is that telomeres get shorter when cells divide, and not all cells divide. Your brain doesn't divide, right? Not typically. Um, and also, though telomeres can vary quite dramatically if you measure them one week after another or one month after another. They're jumping around. The test isn't very accurate. Whereas the one, what I, what's called the epigenetic age test, or a Horvath clock, named after my good friend Steve Horvath, that's much more accurate. That doesn't jump around unless you actually do something to either slow down or reverse aging. So I would say that you wanna do this test. We should do a mouth swab, get you our test, and you know, you can decide if you wanna release that number, but I bet you're younger than you are and we could tell everybody.
- 21:20 – 26:14
The ‘reversal’ study cocktail: metformin, growth hormone, DHEA—and metformin performance myths
- DSDavid Sinclair
that if you do certain things like hyperbaric oxygen chamber or there's some things you can inject into yourself, in one study, you can reverse human aging. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
What's the things you can inject into yourself?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh, boy. All right, I'm not endorsing doing this, but there is a study that came out looking at this clock that we'll measure for people, for not a lot of money. And, and so this group, they put, uh, a few things into the body of patients and it was for a few weeks, and they measured the clock and they measured the thymus, which shrinks as you get older. So I know you wanna know what they are. All right. Let's list them. Metformin.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Metformin.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Growth hormone, and uh, uh, a precursor to hormones called DHEA-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... which goes down as you get older. And that rejuvenated the thymus of these people. It was very clear. And the clock went back by years.
- JRJoe Rogan
The metformin thing is controversial, right? 'Cause that is, uh, a drug for... What is it for? Diabetes?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. High blood sugar. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
High blood sugar.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what, what's controversial is that decreases physical performance in athletics.
- DSDavid Sinclair
All right. Well, so I'm-
- JRJoe Rogan
Am I right about that?
- DSDavid Sinclair
No. No one's right about that-
- JRJoe Rogan
No?
- DSDavid Sinclair
... that I know of.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So I've, I've read the papers. I don't know how many people actually read the papers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Uh, so here, here's what the papers say. First of all, the difference is tiny. You have to squint to see it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DSDavid Sinclair
And they also change the axes so that it's not zero at the bottom. So that's, that's cheating to begin with. Second of all, the muscles of those-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you explain that? Explain what you just glossed over real quick.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. Science speak, I apologize.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's okay.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Okay. So if a, if a graph looks like that, right? I'm, so I'm, I'm showing-
- JRJoe Rogan
So for people that are just listening.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... my hand as it exists, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like a hockey puck.
- 26:14 – 43:14
Deep dive: mitochondria, ATP production, hormesis—and the risky history of ‘weight loss pills’
- DSDavid Sinclair
Anything that'll make you, um, feel good. I didn't tell people why metformin works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I was just gonna ask. Thank you.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. That's all right. I'm, I can run your show for you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Please do.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So metformin inhibits your mitochondria, uh, which are the power packs. Uh, it binds to this protein that makes chemical energy. And when you do that, the body responds by making more mitochondria. Remember, a little bit of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DSDavid Sinclair
That's exactly what's going on here. We call this hormesis. And, uh, so by inhibiting it, your body builds more, so when the drug goes away, you've now got more energy. And that also helps the body take up blood sugar, uh, become more what's called insulin sensitive. And that's why it works for type 2 diabetics. But by accident, this drug has been shown in tens of thousands of veterans and m- mainly, but tens of thousands of people, to also delay other diseases of aging, heart disease, cancer, uh, frailty, Alzheimer's. It's, it's amazing. Uh, when you look at now its, its association, so for the aficionados, we don't know for sure if it does that. But this is the closest thing we have right now to a drug that slows down aging.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what is going on with metformin? What's the mechanism?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah, it's, uh, well, part of it's the boosting of the mitochondria number and ra- raising the energy. But it's got other benefits. It's anti-inflammatory as well. And to be honest, as I should be as a scientist, we don't know. There's other stuff it does, but we just know that people who take it ... A diabetic who, right, is sick and often overweight, who takes metformin, on average, lives longer than someone who doesn't have type 2 diabetes and doesn't take the drug.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DSDavid Sinclair
That is an amazing statistic.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's insane.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it literally not just mitigates the effect of diabetes, but it enhances your lifespan past the point of a person who doesn't have diabetes.
- DSDavid Sinclair
On average.
- JRJoe Rogan
On average.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I like how you just hedged your bets there. So what's going on with metformin? What is it doing to the body and how is it doing it?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well, it's gonna in- inhibit the energy production and the body will start to make more. So you'll have more energy, you'll have, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It inhibits the en- energy production. How so?
- DSDavid Sinclair
How so? Okay, how deep do you wanna go?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, all deep.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Let's go deep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's go.
- DSDavid Sinclair
All right, so the mitochondria-
- JRJoe Rogan
Put my school goggles on.
- DSDavid Sinclair
All right. And stop me if I get boring.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're not boring.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So in the cell, right? So let's zoom down into a cell.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- 43:14 – 55:32
NMN/NAD boosters, IV NAD anecdotes, and circadian/jet lag implications
- DSDavid Sinclair
Uh, yeah, so you're, you're doing the right things, uh, certainly better than most people. Uh, but what I'm trying to build, make, are molecules that mimic fasting as well. So if you cannot fast, like I do, then you can just take a pill. And what we've shown in, in mice at least, is that if you give them this molecule that I'm taking, NMN, nicotinamide mononucleotide, which as I mentioned, um, speeds up metabolism, does all that stuff, those mice could run 50% further. These old mice, we gave it to them for three weeks, put them back on a treadmill, and those that had the NMN in their water ran 50% further. They had better blood flow, better oxygenation, better energy. And that is literally exercise in a pill.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's crazy.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So we're, we're in late stage human clinical trials now.
- JRJoe Rogan
When do you think this is gonna be released to the public?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well, it depends on what the FDA does and if it works, if it works.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those motherfuckers.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh, don't get me in trouble.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDavid Sinclair
I love the FDA. Um, but it's fair, fair enough.
- JRJoe Rogan
I do too.
- DSDavid Sinclair
They protect us. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DSDavid Sinclair
But yeah, we're, we're going through the procedure that has been around since, as I mentioned, early 20th century. But it ... We've done hundreds of people now, um, certainly dozens over the last few years. And we know at least that this molecule is apparently safe and raises the levels of the molecule we wanna build up. The molecule's called NAD. Do you wanna me talk a little about NAD?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, please.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So NAD is what mit- those mitochondria little, uh, Mike and Ike little, uh, energy producing things, use to make energy. So you, you ne- there are two molecules in the body that are really great. You need both for life. Without them, as I said, you're dead. ATP is the energy, and NAD makes that. And as we get older, the levels of NAD go down, our body makes less, and actually also degrades it more. Yeah, so I ... If you take my skin, or in the study that they took people's skin, when you're 50 you've got half the levels of this NAD that you did, than you did when you were 20. Which is scary 'cause this is, this molecule's required for life. Without it, we're dead in 30 seconds. So what we're doing with our clinical trials is giving a precursor, uh, uh, a smaller version of this that the body will turn into NAD and bring those levels back up from where they are when you're old to where you are when you're young. And we s- we see at least in animals and hopefully in people that it revs up m- their metabolism and makes them fight aging and disease like we do when we're young. I mean, there, there's a reason we don't get a lot of heart disease when we're young, or Alzheimer's, because our bodies fight against disease. As we get older, and especially if we sit around or smoke and don't exercise, our bodies just give up.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's very exciting. Now, I, I used to do injectable NAD. I used to do, uh, IVs when I was living in California. I haven't done it out here. What is the difference between this NMN, uh, supplementation versus IV drip, and what's superior?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Well, so there's just a deliv- delivery route. Um, my assumption is that they work in the same way. Um, same effects. But nobody's put them head-to-head. Um, I'm yet to see a clinical trial that shows that literally, uh, an- any of them actually work the way they're advertised. But the theory is that you'll, you'll have the same effect. Um, I don't know if NAD IV is better. I mean, it's certainly more direct than eating it. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... your gut's not eating it. I, I have an anecdote to tell you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Please.
- DSDavid Sinclair
And to my Harvard colleagues, it's just an anecdote. This isn't a clinical trial. So I w- I wrote my book, took a couple of years. I sat down for most of the, most of that time. And my, uh, piriformis muscle, which is one of the main ones in your- holds your hip up, cramped up. And for probably 12 months, I had a permanent cramp in my ass. That was really painful. I could barely walk, made me really grumpy, and I couldn't get rid of it. Exercise, building muscle, physiotherapy, wouldn't go away. And this happens fairly frequently to people who don't stand up. So I now have a standing desk. That's another good tip. But, uh, I went out to California, um, and met with, um, some of the, um, power broker, uh, people in Hollywood, who, you know, shall re- remain nameless, but there's plenty of people you and I know out there who are doing this. They recommended this one person, um, who's well-known and very kind. She said, "Go to see my doctor. Get an NAD shot." And I thought, "Come on. NAD shot? Who believes that science?" Uh, so I went anyway. Uh, honestly out of courtesy. I thought it might work, but I'm always up for something. And sh- doctor injected it into my ass, and uh, I felt a tingle as was supposed to happen, and I walked away thinking, "Yeah, that was fun. Been there, done that." And I flew home that night and I was at the airport, LA airport, and I found that something was different. I was kind of skipping in my walk, and I thought, "It's gone. After a year, this damn thing is gone." Now Gabby Reece, um, the, the, uh, volleyball player who I was at, at her place jumping up in the pool the other day, uh, that's hypoxia. I almost drowned again. But anyway, Gabby says it's probably just the needle. And she might be right. This is not a clinical trial, but it's certainly interesting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, dry needling does do something to muscles. If you have a muscle ... Like, have you ever been dry needled before?
- DSDavid Sinclair
No. Are you offering?
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, that sounded strange.
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I, uh, I've done it before. It's really interesting. Yeah, they, they basically stake- take acupuncture needles and they stick 'em in stiff muscles and a lot of times they do it, uh, with in conjunction with, uh, electrical muscular, uh, stimulation. So they'll put these little clamps onto the acupuncture needles and it just goes, d- d- d- gives you this weird pulsating thing in your muscles. But it's really beneficial for re- loose- releasing and relaxing like really tight and tense muscles. You know, I've ha- I have an imbalance in my back because of, uh, power kicking on my right side. My left side is what stabilizes it. So the left side of my back ...... is thicker than the right side of my back.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because if you think about it, if you're standing here like this and you're doing this all the time, you're, like ... You're leaning into the left side and throwing a kick with the right leg. And then also, when I draw a bow back, right, I always draw it with my right side. And so my right shoulder is stronger than my left shoulder.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
But my left shoulder is stronger pushing 'cause the left shoulder pushes, and the right shoulder pulls. I would always ... Fucking weird imbalances in my body.
- 55:32 – 1:01:48
Sleep as an aging lever: routines, blue light, wearables, and ‘nibbling’ Ambien
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Makes sense. It all makes sense. Uh, getting better sleep is huge, right? That's a, a big part of, uh, your body's ability to recover and recuperate. Um, how many hours do you get a night?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Last night, I got three. But usually, I get about six to seven.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you feel like that's good enough?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what about people that say that you need eight or nine?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Everyone's different.
- JRJoe Rogan
You think that's, it's just a-
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. How much do you need?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't feel good without eight. I feel good at seven. I feel better at eight. Eight's like, it's quantifiable. It's like, I could see it, I could feel it. Six or five, I'm like, "Er." I can s- I f- I can function, but I have friends that are just like, five and they're good, you know, like Jocko. Jocko, five hours, and he's, you know-
- DSDavid Sinclair
He's lucky.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Real lucky. But, um, the, the danger is that if you don't get enough sleep, you do accelerate your aging clock. That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... clear. If you, uh, keep a rat from having sleep for two weeks, it gets diabetes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Two weeks?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. It's so fast.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's what we need to do to get rid of the rats.
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Just starve them. Give them diabetes. Um, when you're, uh, getting ready for sleep, do you have, uh, a routine? Do you take, uh, like, a, like, a, a relaxing tea? Do you take any f- do you... Are you... Tryptophan? Are you doing anything that makes you calm down and relax?
- DSDavid Sinclair
I do a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Melatonin?
- DSDavid Sinclair
I have a whole procedure. Yeah, and I'm, I'm an excited guy. Um, and the whole day for me is a thrill. So try- trying to calm down is hard. So it starts with turning off the, the blueness on my computer screen, my phone. I try not watch TV after 10 o'clock, try not to do emails after 10:30. That's the start. Then I have a special tea that has tryptophan, L-theanine, GABA, um, and that helps. Uh, I might have a sip of, a little bit of alcohol, just to calm my nerves. Not a lot. Literally, not, nothing like that. Uh, and then if that doesn't work, then I nibble on an Ambien, and that will finally get me to sleep.
- JRJoe Rogan
An Ambien? Really? You go hard.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Nibble.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nibble?
- DSDavid Sinclair
Nibble. It's barely much.
- JRJoe Rogan
What does that mean?
- DSDavid Sinclair
What does that mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Like a mouse?
- DSDavid Sinclair
As little as I can... Yeah, yeah. Right.
- 1:01:48 – 1:27:04
Hormesis culture: sauna extremes, cold exposure, and high-CO2 pool training
- DSDavid Sinclair
Hang on, how hot are you making your sauna?
- JRJoe Rogan
It gets close to 200 degrees.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Like last night was, I'll tell you 'cause I took a photo of the, the thing. It was 190... Let me see.
- DSDavid Sinclair
So you can fry an egg in there?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's it right there.
- DSDavid Sinclair
I believe you now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's close to 200.
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That looks like 198-
- DSDavid Sinclair
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 199.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah. I di- I did that, um, at Gabby Reece's place recently too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh yeah, that's where I learned it from.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Lea- learned from Laird. That's savage. That's savage. He gets on an Airdyne bike with oven mitts in the sauna and works out.
- DSDavid Sinclair
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, yo.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Right. Those two know hormesis. They, they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DSDavid Sinclair
... exponential it. But I was, I was almost throwing up. I had to leave-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DSDavid Sinclair
... and come back, get ho... had a cold shower and an ice bath.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) How hot did he make it?
- DSDavid Sinclair
About that hot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He goes harder than that. He sent me one, uh, a photo where it's like 225 degrees.
- DSDavid Sinclair
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's in there with fucking oven mitts on.
- DSDavid Sinclair
They're used to it. Uh, actually there was a ph- there was a photo that was posted online, uh, Gabby and I, and you know, she's, she's used to this. And I was, I was a beetroot. I looked like that girl from Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory.
- JRJoe Rogan
I saw that photo. (laughs)
Episode duration: 2:49:05
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