Joe Rogan Experience #1670 - David Sinclair

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. DSDavid Sinclair0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Hey, Joe.

   4. DSDavid Sinclair0:16

      Hello, David.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Always good to see you, my friend. How are you?

   6. DSDavid Sinclair0:18

      Yeah, likewise. Feeling great.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Uh, I enjoyed you on the Lex Fridman podcast. I learned some things.

   8. DSDavid Sinclair0:24

      Me too.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      (laughs)

   10. DSDavid Sinclair0:26

       I learned that I like the guy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       He's the best.

   12. DSDavid Sinclair0:28

       Isn't he? Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       He's a- such an unusual human being, a brilliant guy who's, uh, incredibly humble. He's, uh, both a martial artist-

   14. DSDavid Sinclair0:38

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       ... and a- an AI scientist. You know, he's- I love that guy. He's so- he's so special.

   16. DSDavid Sinclair0:43

       Yeah. A philosopher, a poet, intellect-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Everything.

   18. DSDavid Sinclair0:45

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       And he's, like, so- he's so real. Like, and he does- he- he pushes himself in these very unusual ways, and I think a lot of the reason why he does it to examine his own mind and to examine his own potential. Like, he does it as a scientist, but also as a brute. He's a weird combination of the two things 'cause, you know, he's a bl- like, a legitimate black belt in jujitsu. He's really good.

   20. DSDavid Sinclair1:11

       No way.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Yeah.

   22. DSDavid Sinclair1:12

       I didn't know that about him.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       Oh my God, you didn't know?

   24. DSDavid Sinclair1:13

       He doesn't look like he could hurt a fly.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Oh, Lex will fuck you up.

   26. DSDavid Sinclair1:16

       Oh, God.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Like, Lex is, like, a legit black belt in jujitsu.

   28. DSDavid Sinclair1:20

       Okay.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       Yeah. Very good.

   30. DSDavid Sinclair1:21

       Now I'm amazed. But-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, um, you and…

   1. DSDavid Sinclair15:00

      we know this in great detail at the molecular level. There are genes that respond to how much you're eating and what you're eating and whether you're exercising, and these are called longevity genes. And they give our body resilience and fight aging and slow down what we can now measure, the biological clock. So, I can take your blood, or actually now we've developed a very cheap test, just a swab, to be able to tell you very accurately how old you are, not based on how many times the earth goes around the sun. That's ridiculous. Age is just a number. You can actually take a swab, I can tell you how, how old you are really, but then using real science, tell you how to slow that down. And this is really cool, just in the last few years, we figured out you can reverse human aging as well.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      Well, um, you and I have talked about this before, but I'm doing hyperbaric treatments. I've done 40 of them, 40 90-minute treatments over the past few months.

   3. DSDavid Sinclair15:48

      How's it feeling?

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:49

      I don't know. I feel pretty good.

   5. DSDavid Sinclair15:52

      Good.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:52

      But I always feel good.

   7. DSDavid Sinclair15:53

      Well- (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      That's what's confusing, because I've been doing so much shit for so long.

   9. DSDavid Sinclair15:57

      Yeah. So, how do you-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       Like, I've never stopped.

   11. DSDavid Sinclair15:59

       You don't know it's working.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Right.

   13. DSDavid Sinclair15:59

       That's the problem. So, this test that I'm developing, uh, which will come out later, uh, probably this year, is how do you know what you're doing is working? This is a big problem for everybody. And you don't stay motivated if you don't see it. We, we have dashboards on our cars. We know how fast we're going. We know if the engine needs work. With our bodies, we don't know that.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:16

       We just guess.

   15. DSDavid Sinclair16:16

       And if you go to the doctor once a year, they don't know much either, to be honest. I mean, some of my best friends are doctors, real doctors. But what you need is one number at the top to rule them all, so you can measure things, you can wear rings, you can wear these wrist, uh, watches. I do a lot of that. I, I put these things on my chest. But it's really complicated. It's expensive. It's confusing. What you want is one number, and that's your biological age, which the test that I'm developing, and I want to democratize that, because right now the people who are doing all of this stuff are the really rich people. Uh, and most people either don't know or can't afford it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       And the hyperbaric treatments, the reason why I'm doing it-

   17. DSDavid Sinclair16:51

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       ... is because of that study out of Israel. You wanna tell people about that?

   19. DSDavid Sinclair16:55

       Uh, yeah. So, this is a, a study out of Israel. It's, um, a group that has, uh, a chamber built by Germans, which is ironic over in Israel, and they... (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       Yeah.

   21. DSDavid Sinclair17:04

       Yeah. So, I went in this chamber, actually. I visited them, uh, before COVID, some of my good friends over there. And what they do is they put you, you prob- I don't know if yours is the same, but this is a really big room and you can fit about 20 people in there. And they give you oxygen, so extra oxygen, and then they raise the pressure up and then they drop it and raise it. Is that what you've been doing?

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       Mm-hmm.

   23. DSDavid Sinclair17:22

       Yeah. And so what happens, I think, to the body is the body's going, "Oh, shit. I've got too much oxygen." So, it responds. And then the decreased oxygen makes you feel hypoxic, like running. So, this is a way of getting, in my view, exercise without having to exercise, and then you turn on these longevity genes. And I would bet, though I haven't proven it yet, though I am working on it, is that some of these genes that we've discovered, the sirtuins was discovered to be involved in aging, we didn't discover them, uh, are activated by this hyperbaric chamber. And what they showed in this paper that got probably you excited as well as everyone else is, they looked at the ends of chromosomes which shorten over time, the telomeres, and actually got longer after this, uh, therapy. And that is a sign of reversing aging. It's not as good as the clock that I'm developing, but it is a good sign.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       And they decided after examining these people from 90 min- or 90 days doing 60 sessions, that it gave you the equivalent of 20 years decrease in biological age because of the m- the length of the telomeres, which is super controversial, right?

   25. DSDavid Sinclair18:24

       It's certainly controversial. Everything's controversial in science till it's been repeated and you, it takes 10 years for people to believe it.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:28

       But it's also controversial the, uh, the concept of telomere length-

   27. DSDavid Sinclair18:32

       (sighs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:32

       ... being equal to biological age.

   29. DSDavid Sinclair18:35

       Well, y- yeah, it's one aspect. I would say that it's not that controversial, but it's, it's certainly not the only determinant of age. What I think, uh, and as I wrote about in, in my book, is that this biological clock, which is literally chemical changes to your DNA over time, is the real number. Telomeres are out there. They're like the, the wristwatch for, for health. They don't, that doesn't tell you your real age. It's an indicator.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:59

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Oh, wow. …

   1. DSDavid Sinclair30:00

      spins around and makes a chemical called ATP, which the body needs to, to survive. That's where we get all our energy. If we don't have ATP or this little spinny thing, we're dead in less than 30 seconds. You take cyanide, that's what it does, it blocks that process.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Oh, wow.

   3. DSDavid Sinclair30:14

      So it's needed for life and it seems the more you have of that, the better.... now, one thing that one of my, uh, companies that I'm helping, uh, and I've invested in to be honest, uh, to be transparent, is developing is a way to punch holes in that membrane so that the hydroelectric dam is less efficient. So, we've got a leak in the dam, and so not all the energy is going through. So, what we, we see happen in animal studies is that they can eat more food and not gain weight. It's a perfect weight loss pill.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:44

      Wow.

   5. DSDavid Sinclair30:45

      So I wanna help cure obesity as well.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:47

      That sounds very Dr. Oz-like, though.

   7. DSDavid Sinclair30:49

      Why?

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:49

      It's a, it's a perfect weight lo- it's a miracle, it's a miracle pill.

   9. DSDavid Sinclair30:53

      Well, it seems like a miracle.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       Kind of sounds like.

   11. DSDavid Sinclair30:54

       I don't believe in miracles, but I believe in good science. And in the 1920s, uh, mostly women who were, uh, at, in these factories, actually it was earlier, f- World War I, they were making bombs. And there was a chemical called DNP, dinitrophenol, which has this property to break h- through this hydroelectric dam wall. Um, and w- those women were really skinny, and people didn't understand it, and they found out that if you eat this molecule, DNP, you shed weight. And this started to be sold, uh, in hospitals...

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:22

       How were they eating the molecule?

   13. DSDavid Sinclair31:23

       Well, they were breathing it in, and that was sufficient.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:25

       Really?

   15. DSDavid Sinclair31:25

       Yeah. So then it became sold, and it became one of the best-selling drugs in, I think it was 1928, something like that. Um, and it, people thought that, that this was the end of obesity, and, uh, you know, people were partying in the streets basically. But the problem is when you bust holes through that membrane, it generates, as a byproduct, heat. And people took too much, because they wanted to get thin really quickly, and they overheated and some of them died. And that led to-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       Whoa.

   17. DSDavid Sinclair31:53

       ... the FDA, the FDA Act, and this is why we have drug regulation.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:57

       That's why?

   19. DSDavid Sinclair31:58

       One of the main reasons, yeah. They shut that down 'cause it was killing people.

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       How many people died?

   21. DSDavid Sinclair32:03

       Oh, not that many. Uh, but still, one is too many.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:05

       But it's an overdose issue?

   23. DSDavid Sinclair32:07

       Right. And you can still get it on the black market.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:09

       Hmm.

   25. DSDavid Sinclair32:09

       They used to give it to Russians, apparently, in World War II, to stay warm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:13

       Wow!

   27. DSDavid Sinclair32:14

       Yeah. Uh, but if you're wondering, "David, why are you making a drug that's gonna kill people?" Well, actually, the, the chemists are working and have made molecules that are sensitive to this acidity, and if it gets too low, it'll turn itself off.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:26

       Why don't you just let people figure out the right dosage? Let 'em get warm.

   29. DSDavid Sinclair32:30

       Come on, d- there, there are always stupid people who are-

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:33

       There are, and you need to let them.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   That's very exciting. Now,…

   1. DSDavid Sinclair45:00

      so I ... If you take my skin, or in the study that they took people's skin, when you're 50 you've got half the levels of this NAD that you did, than you did when you were 20. Which is scary 'cause this is, this molecule's required for life. Without it, we're dead in 30 seconds. So what we're doing with our clinical trials is giving a precursor, uh, uh, a smaller version of this that the body will turn into NAD and bring those levels back up from where they are when you're old to where you are when you're young. And we s- we see at least in animals and hopefully in people that it revs up m- their metabolism and makes them fight aging and disease like we do when we're young. I mean, there, there's a reason we don't get a lot of heart disease when we're young, or Alzheimer's, because our bodies fight against disease. As we get older, and especially if we sit around or smoke and don't exercise, our bodies just give up.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:46

      That's very exciting. Now, I, I used to do injectable NAD. I used to do, uh, IVs when I was living in California. I haven't done it out here. What is the difference between this NMN, uh, supplementation versus IV drip, and what's superior?

   3. DSDavid Sinclair46:03

      Well, so there's just a deliv- delivery route. Um, my assumption is that they work in the same way. Um, same effects. But nobody's put them head-to-head. Um, I'm yet to see a clinical trial that shows that literally, uh, an- any of them actually work the way they're advertised. But the theory is that you'll, you'll have the same effect. Um, I don't know if NAD IV is better. I mean, it's certainly more direct than eating it. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:30

      Yeah.

   5. DSDavid Sinclair46:30

      ... your gut's not eating it. I, I have an anecdote to tell you.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:34

      Please.

   7. DSDavid Sinclair46:34

      And to my Harvard colleagues, it's just an anecdote. This isn't a clinical trial. So I w- I wrote my book, took a couple of years. I sat down for most of the, most of that time. And my, uh, piriformis muscle, which is one of the main ones in your- holds your hip up, cramped up. And for probably 12 months, I had a permanent cramp in my ass. That was really painful. I could barely walk, made me really grumpy, and I couldn't get rid of it. Exercise, building muscle, physiotherapy, wouldn't go away. And this happens fairly frequently to people who don't stand up. So I now have a standing desk. That's another good tip. But, uh, I went out to California, um, and met with, um, some of the, um, power broker, uh, people in Hollywood, who, you know, shall re- remain nameless, but there's plenty of people you and I know out there who are doing this. They recommended this one person, um, who's well-known and very kind. She said, "Go to see my doctor. Get an NAD shot." And I thought, "Come on. NAD shot? Who believes that science?" Uh, so I went anyway. Uh, honestly out of courtesy. I thought it might work, but I'm always up for something. And sh- doctor injected it into my ass, and uh, I felt a tingle as was supposed to happen, and I walked away thinking, "Yeah, that was fun. Been there, done that." And I flew home that night and I was at the airport, LA airport, and I found that something was different. I was kind of skipping in my walk, and I thought, "It's gone. After a year, this damn thing is gone." Now Gabby Reece, um, the, the, uh, volleyball player who I was at, at her place jumping up in the pool the other day, uh, that's hypoxia. I almost drowned again. But anyway, Gabby says it's probably just the needle. And she might be right. This is not a clinical trial, but it's certainly interesting.

   8. JRJoe Rogan48:13

      Well, dry needling does do something to muscles. If you have a muscle ... Like, have you ever been dry needled before?

   9. DSDavid Sinclair48:19

      No. Are you offering?

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:20

       Uh, that sounded strange.

   11. DSDavid Sinclair48:22

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:22

       I, uh, I've done it before. It's really interesting. Yeah, they, they basically stake- take acupuncture needles and they stick 'em in stiff muscles and a lot of times they do it, uh, with in conjunction with, uh, electrical muscular, uh, stimulation. So they'll put these little clamps onto the acupuncture needles and it just goes, d- d- d- gives you this weird pulsating thing in your muscles. But it's really beneficial for re- loose- releasing and relaxing like really tight and tense muscles. You know, I've ha- I have an imbalance in my back because of, uh, power kicking on my right side. My left side is what stabilizes it. So the left side of my back ...... is thicker than the right side of my back.

   13. DSDavid Sinclair49:07

       Hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan49:07

       Because if you think about it, if you're standing here like this and you're doing this all the time, you're, like ... You're leaning into the left side and throwing a kick with the right leg. And then also, when I draw a bow back, right, I always draw it with my right side. And so my right shoulder is stronger than my left shoulder.

   15. DSDavid Sinclair49:26

       Uh-huh.

   16. JRJoe Rogan49:26

       But my left shoulder is stronger pushing 'cause the left shoulder pushes, and the right shoulder pulls. I would always ... Fucking weird imbalances in my body.

   17. DSDavid Sinclair49:34

       You probably do something else with one hand too that doesn't help.

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:36

       Hey, easy.

   19. DSDavid Sinclair49:38

       I didn't say anything.

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:38

       And, uh, so this, uh, nice lady, Jennifer, uh, over at Exos started sticking these needles in there and ... Dirt, dirt, dirt. And, uh, she's a wizard, it worked. It was amazing. It's like I could feel it after it was over. It's like, "Oh," it released all this tension. So that might have had something to do with it. But, I mean, it's not like they're sticking NAD in your butt just 'cause they think, like, maybe it'll work. Like, she's probably got some responses from other people in the past, right? I mean, there's gotta be some science-

   21. DSDavid Sinclair50:06

       Right. Uh, uh, th- th- there's a lot of anecdotal stuff. And, and this doctor I have huge respect for. Um, so that, that was another reason, and it may work.

   22. JRJoe Rogan50:12

       So no one has measured the benefits of NAD IV versus pills?

   23. DSDavid Sinclair50:19

       Nope. Nope.

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:19

       I gotta tell you one ... The NAD drip is rough.

   25. DSDavid Sinclair50:23

       Really?

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:23

       It's rough. Yeah. Like, uh, that's why people do it very slowly. They do it over l... Have you done it?

   27. DSDavid Sinclair50:29

       No.

   28. JRJoe Rogan50:30

       It's-

   29. DSDavid Sinclair50:30

       I, I was offered it at a hotel that I was at.

   30. JRJoe Rogan50:32

       It's the strangest feeling. It's like you're ... Your body, like, your, your stomach cramps up. You're like, "Whoa." Um, it's hard to, like, open it up.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:58

   Well, do you, do…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      I'm relaxing, sit down outside, listen to the birds chirp for a little bit. Then's a good time, 'cause then you're starting... You, you're actually in motion, so you could actually get some stuff done that maybe's bothering you. Maybe you can work on some of those things. At nighttime, you're not working on shit. You're just gonna ruin your sleep.

   2. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:18

      Well, do you, do you have any tricks?

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      Drinks?

   4. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:20

      Tricks.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

      Tricks? Um, it, my tricks are just mental exercises. Like, I feel myself starting to think about maybe, like, a bit that I'm working on that I need to correct or, you know, "This is, uh, this is not w- the right way to do it. You need to re..." I, I gotta go, "Hey, hey, hey. Stop and just think about your breathing." So my m- my number one trick is just concentrating on in and out, and in and out. And it's not even. Along the way, I will go right back into the things that are bothering me and write down, "Oh, I screwed up this," or, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that." And in and out, and in, and get myself right back on track, and eventually I fall asleep.

   6. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:02

      Great. Yeah, breathing is, is really important.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

      Yeah.

   8. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:04

      Um, even during the day, when you're starting to freak out or just get too busy. Just 10 breaths will bring your heart rate down.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

      Have you ever read James Nestor's book, Breath?

   10. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:13

       Oh, I want to. It's-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

       It's very good.

   12. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:14

       I've been told, every day for years.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

       Very, very good. And he's a really interesting guest too. I really enjoyed talking to him. But his book is fantastic, and it's very, very beneficial. And I use those, many of those breathing exercises that are outlined in the book, I use in the sauna. It's, like, uh, one of the ways that I get through the sauna. And if I do it correctly, I can get, I can get through, like, a sauna session and I barely know how rough it is.... if I do, if I really get into it and I, I like force myself to f- fully concentrate, by the time I look down, I'm like, "Oh my God, it's already 25 minutes. I'm good."

   14. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:48

       Hang on, how hot are you making your sauna?

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:50

       It gets close to 200 degrees.

   16. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:53

       Wow.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

       Yeah. Like last night was, I'll tell you 'cause I took a photo of the, the thing. It was 190... Let me see.

   18. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:04

       So you can fry an egg in there?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       Yeah. That's it right there.

   20. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:08

       I believe you now.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

       Yeah. It's close to 200.

   22. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:11

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       That looks like 198-

   24. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:12

       It is.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       ... 199.

   26. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:13

       Yeah. I di- I did that, um, at Gabby Reece's place recently too.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

       Oh yeah, that's where I learned it from.

   28. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:17

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:20

       Lea- learned from Laird. That's savage. That's savage. He gets on an Airdyne bike with oven mitts in the sauna and works out.

   30. DSDavid Sinclair1:02:26

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:49:05