Joe Rogan Experience #1674 - Clay Newcomb

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   Meeting Clay Newcomb & why “Bear Grease” is more than a funny name

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. CNClay Newcomb0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) What's happening, brother? How are you?

   4. CNClay Newcomb0:15

      I'm doing very well.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      I, uh ... It's always interesting to meet someone in person when you've heard them on a podcast. I've heard you, uh, I don't know-

   6. CNClay Newcomb0:22

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      ... a hundred times on the Meat Eater podcast.

   8. CNClay Newcomb0:24

      Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      So to, to see you in person, and then to, uh, start listening to your podcast, which is, uh, Bear Grease, which is a hilarious name for a podcast. And if people don't know, um, bear grease, rendered bear fat, is actually a, a very valuable thing.

2. 0:42 – 1:50

   Blueberry bears, edible bears, and the flavor of bear fat

   1. CNClay Newcomb0:42

      Yeah.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:42

      And it's great to cook with, and it's, uh ... Like I, I, I'll, I'll never forget when I found out about bear hunting, about bears being good to eat, was actually from Steve Rinella.

   3. CNClay Newcomb0:53

      Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:53

      When he was explaining to me about blueberry bears.

   5. CNClay Newcomb0:56

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:57

      And then I watched that video that he put out of him hunting this bear in Alaska that had been eating nothing but blueberries.

   7. CNClay Newcomb1:04

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:04

      And so when he's, uh, breaking down the bear and taking the fat off, the fat is actually purple-

   9. CNClay Newcomb1:10

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       ... because this bear's been eating so many blueberries that it's in its flesh.

   11. CNClay Newcomb1:14

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       And he said it is the most delicious meat you'll ever eat.

   13. CNClay Newcomb1:18

       Yeah. Well, I mean, bear grease, bear fat is essentially whatever that bear's been eating, you know? And it's flavored, whether it be by acorns or berries or whatever, so.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       Or fish.

   15. CNClay Newcomb1:31

       I have ... I've got some bear grease for you, Joe.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Oh, exciting.

   17. CNClay Newcomb1:34

       I, I have ... I come bearing many gifts if you would like-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:37

       I would love it.

   19. CNClay Newcomb1:37

       If you would like to see what I've got here.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:38

       Tell me what you got there.

   21. CNClay Newcomb1:39

       Uh, uh, and you know, talking about bear grease and trying to connect it to a podcast, I mean, at some point, I'll have to explain the metaphor of bear grease.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       Let's explain it now.

3. 1:50 – 3:32

   Bear grease as frontier currency: cooking, preservation, and shelf life

   1. CNClay Newcomb1:50

      Well, so bear grease at one time was this highly valued commodity, I mean used as a, a unit of currency on the American frontier. And, and, and bear, bear grease, bear oil would be the rendered fat of a bear that would ... turned into liquid, like this right here.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      This is, this is-

   3. CNClay Newcomb2:09

      So this is for you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:10

      Thank you.

   5. CNClay Newcomb2:10

      Have you ever, have you ever had ... I mean, I know you've bear hunted, but have you had-

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:13

      Yes.

   7. CNClay Newcomb2:13

      ... bear grease before?

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:14

      No, I've only ... I've eaten bear. I've never rendered bear fat or cooked anything in bear fat.

   9. CNClay Newcomb2:19

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       I've only just taken the meat and, and cooked it.

   11. CNClay Newcomb2:22

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       Usually slow cooking it or-

   13. CNClay Newcomb2:23

       So, so what you would do with that is you would cook with it. You would fry with it. You could make pastries with it. You can use it to condition leather. You can use it to condition-

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:31

       It's supposed to be amazing for pastries, right? For like-

   15. CNClay Newcomb2:33

       It is.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       ... pie crust?

   17. CNClay Newcomb2:35

       Yep, yep. And so there was a time when bear grease, bear lard was super valuable on the frontier bef- before refrigeration because bear fat stayed ... didn't go rancid as quickly as pork lard. So like on a-

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       Hm.

   19. CNClay Newcomb2:49

       You would have ... Pork and bear would be essentially the places where you would get it. This lasted longer. That'll lo- last on the shelf at your house unrefrigerated for over a year. Uh-

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:01

       Why does it, why does it last so much longer?

   21. CNClay Newcomb3:02

       Just, just whatever the constituency of bear lard is, it just stays good for that long. So going back to this metaphor, the name of Bear Grease, in our podcast, we're, we're exploring things. And even in the, in the, in the, in the, you know, the, the tagline of the podcast, we say that we're exploring thing ... or things that are forgotten but relevant, and we're searching for insight in unlikely places. And so like this bear, bear grease,

4. 3:32 – 7:16

   Soap, beard oil, and salve: modern uses + folklore about healing properties

   1. CNClay Newcomb3:32

      I brought you some stuff that you can do with bear grease. This is, uh, this is some bear fat lye soap.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:38

      Mm.

   3. CNClay Newcomb3:39

      If you, if you've ever used animal tallow soap-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:42

      No.

   5. CNClay Newcomb3:42

      ... like just for, like bathing, washing your hands.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:44

      No, I never have.

   7. CNClay Newcomb3:44

      Man, that's incredible stuff.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:47

      Yeah?

   9. CNClay Newcomb3:47

      It really is, 100% all natural. I mean, it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a ancient process of using lye and animal tallow.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       What is lye exactly?

   11. CNClay Newcomb3:56

       Lye is, um ... Doggone, if you hadn't asked me. It's, it's ... I mean, it's a, it's a chemical. It's a caustic chemical that you can buy just about anywhere. But, uh ... Shoot. I mean, it's like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       How did they use to-

   13. CNClay Newcomb4:10

       It's like H2 something something. But they used to use ash.

   14. JRJoe Rogan4:14

       Oh.

   15. CNClay Newcomb4:15

       They used ... They, they, they got the lye from ash.

   16. JRJoe Rogan4:18

       There it is.

   17. CNClay Newcomb4:19

       And, uh, uh ...

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:22

       It's a metal hydroxide traditionally obtained by leaching wood ashes-

   19. CNClay Newcomb4:27

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan4:27

       ... or a strong alkali which is highly soluble in water producing caustic-

   21. CNClay Newcomb4:32

       NaOH.

   22. JRJoe Rogan4:32

       ... basic solutions. Hm.

   23. CNClay Newcomb4:33

       Sodium, sodium hydroxide. That's what it is.

   24. JRJoe Rogan4:35

       So they would get it from, like, burning wood?

   25. CNClay Newcomb4:38

       Yeah. So they, they're ... The real primitive method for making soap from, from animal tallow, and you could use ... you could make animal tallow soap out of-

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       Beef tallow.

   27. CNClay Newcomb4:48

       ... anything. But bear fat lye soap is, uh, is, is our specialty. Now, uh, but it, um, it's sup- it's supposed to be real good for your skin as well, you know, because it's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:58

       Do you sell this?

   29. CNClay Newcomb4:59

       No. No.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       I mean, you say our specialty. You never sell it, just give away?
5. 7:16 – 11:24

   “An elle of bear oil”: lost measurements, ‘a buck,’ and using more of a bear

   1. CNClay Newcomb7:16

      So it's been forgotten. And it, so there was a time when ... So there's an archaic unit of measure of a bear oil. They used to take the tanned neck hide of a deer, which would have been a part of the, the buckskin that wasn't usable, the neck hide, and they would have sewed it together and they would have used it to have stored bear oil, and they called it an elle. And I, uh ...

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      So they would make a container out of it, like a wine flask almost.

   3. CNClay Newcomb7:43

      Make a container. An elle of bear oil.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:46

      Huh.

   5. CNClay Newcomb7:46

      And it's just a wonder-

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      Spell it like eel, like a-

   7. CNClay Newcomb7:49

      Well, it, it, it, you know, it's been probably 10 years since I've actually seen it written. It's, I think it's E-L-L-E, like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:56

      Oh.

   9. CNClay Newcomb7:57

      Um, an elle of, of bear oil. Would have been a unit of measurement. So like you could have gone to the store and you're like, "Well, I got two elles of bear oil. You know, I'd like some flour. I'd like some whatever."

   10. JRJoe Rogan8:08

       Wow.

   11. CNClay Newcomb8:08

       And, uh, you know, it's just a, it's a wonder that we don't call the US dollar, you know, an elle. Do you see what I'm s-

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:13

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CNClay Newcomb8:13

       You know, 'cause the buck is essentially connected to the value of a white-tailed deer skin that was tanned out and ready for tanning, and that became equivalent to a buck.

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:25

       For $1?

   15. CNClay Newcomb8:26

       For $1.

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:27

       Wow.

   17. CNClay Newcomb8:27

       And so, so again, this idea that there's some pretty amazing stuff that's forgotten. And then as hunters, we're very interested in using as much as we can from these animals that we're taking. Very interested in that. And so a bear offers a whole nother market of commodity that really no other big game offers, in that, you know, of, of the big game that we hunt, like, like s- say an elk. I mean, like, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna keep the meat, obviously. That's the number one thing. You're gonna keep his horns. But very few people would even keep the hide of that animal, and certainly they're not rendering down elk tallow. White-tailed deer would have the same sequence of usable commodities. Man, a black bear, we have incredible meat. We ... I would, I would venture to say that 90%, maybe 80% of black bears that are killed in North America, their hides are tanned. They have usually, especially in the fall, will have an incredible amount of fat, which can be rendered down into all these incredible healthy, usable products. And, uh, and so I mean like we have, we u- My point is we use more off a b- of a bear than we do almost any other big game animal that we hunt. Um, I'm getting off track here though.

   18. JRJoe Rogan9:53

       No, you're not. No, my friend John and J- uh, friends John and Jen, they run a, a bear hunting camp.

   19. CNClay Newcomb9:57

       Yeah. Yeah, in Alberta.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:58

       You know? Yeah.

   21. CNClay Newcomb9:59

       I know them.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       And they take the bear fat and they give it to the First Nation elders and they use it for some sort of medicinal properties. They have some way of, of utilizing it themselves.

   23. CNClay Newcomb10:10

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:11

       And they, they, they found that pretty fascinating. They, they personally use bear fat for cooking and things like that.

   25. CNClay Newcomb10:15

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:15

       And they, they cook a lot of bear and they're interested in a lot of bear recipes, but they say that they make trades with the elders.

   27. CNClay Newcomb10:22

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       And they, they deliver them bear fat. They're really into bear fat.

   29. CNClay Newcomb10:25

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:25

       But they don't kill bear themselves.
6. 11:24 – 25:55

   Indigenous bear traditions: Koyukon taboos and spiritual rules for hunting

   1. CNClay Newcomb11:24

      But, but historically, I mean, bears and, you know, First Nation people, especially in the South and everywhere in Alaska ... I was just doing a, reading a book on the Koyukon people up in, in Alaska, which is an indigenous tribe in, in Alaska. And I mean, they have an incredible amount of bear hunting history and bear hunting methods, and like they have what they call taboos. Uh, I've got a list on my phone of like 14 of their rules for bear hunting, which are like super interesting.

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:00

      Let me hear them.

   3. CNClay Newcomb12:01

      All like, uh, very-

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:04

      ... specific?

   5. CNClay Newcomb12:04

      Yeah. I- it might take me just a minute, Joe.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:07

      That's okay. We, we should probably tell people, 'cause it's, uh, it's... All this stuff sounds odd, because, uh, when you're talking about hunting in North America to most people that don't hunt, they think of deer hunting.

   7. CNClay Newcomb12:18

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:18

      That's- that's common.

   9. CNClay Newcomb12:19

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       But, uh, during the days where people were traveling across the country, uh, settling, and the, the pioneers, they mostly ate bear.

   11. CNClay Newcomb12:30

       They did.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:30

       And they were using deer for the skins, which is kinda crazy when you think about it today.

   13. CNClay Newcomb12:36

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       Like, that bear was like... D- Steve Rinella has that great, uh, animated thing, uh, have you ever seen it online?

   15. CNClay Newcomb12:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:43

       Where someone's animated this piece about-

   17. CNClay Newcomb12:44

       This, the story about Boone?

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:45

       Yeah, Daniel Boone-

   19. CNClay Newcomb12:46

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:46

       ... and all of his bear hunting and b- and canning bears, and-

   21. CNClay Newcomb12:50

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:50

       ... smoking bears, and that bear meat was highly prized.

   23. CNClay Newcomb12:55

       Yeah. Yeah, they, it was... I mean, and there's no reason why that really should've changed other than just kind of went out of popularity.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:04

       Fucking Disney.

   25. CNClay Newcomb13:05

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       Disney did it.

   27. CNClay Newcomb13:05

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       That's what happened.

   29. CNClay Newcomb13:07

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:07

       People started looking at animals in this really weird anthropomorphic way.
7. 25:55 – 35:07

   Bear senses, scent at 800 yards, and why bears are “superpowered”

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:55

      I watched that episode of Meat Eater where you and Renella were hunting bear. Were you in Montana?

   2. CNClay Newcomb26:00

      Montana.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:01

      And there was a bear that was how many hundreds of yards away?

   4. CNClay Newcomb26:05

      800.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:06

      800 yards away-

   6. CNClay Newcomb26:06

      800 yards.

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:06

      ... and he winded you?

   8. CNClay Newcomb26:08

      Yeah. Well, I mean, winded us like that, but-

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:10

      Yeah.

   10. CNClay Newcomb26:11

       ... it was-

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:11

       What, what, what I mean by winded, for people who don't know what we're talking about, the bear... The wind came from behind you and reached the bear. So, your scent reached the bear from eight football fields away, which is-

   12. CNClay Newcomb26:22

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:22

       ... fucking bananas.

   14. CNClay Newcomb26:23

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:23

       That's so far.

   16. CNClay Newcomb26:24

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:24

       And that bear started running?

   18. CNClay Newcomb26:26

       Yeah. A-

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:27

       And that's the only thing that you could attribute to his behavior?

   20. CNClay Newcomb26:30

       Oh, there... There was no question that the bear smelled us. I mean, that, that's not, in my mind or Steve's mind, really debatable. But there is more to the story that would help make sense, Joe.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:41

       Okay.

   22. CNClay Newcomb26:41

       Because we were basically at the foot, foot of a mountain, and to our right was basically a very steep, straight-up mountain. So, we're sitting here. The wind is hitting us directly in the back of the neck and it's basically creating a wind channel that directed our scent right to that bear. Where if it had been open country, I feel like by the time our scent got there, it would have dissipated.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:09

       Dissipated.

   24. CNClay Newcomb27:09

       So, it was... And there were six of us.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:11

       Mm-hmm, right.

   26. CNClay Newcomb27:11

       You, you s- you just see me and Steve on the screen, but behind us was-

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:15

       Cameramen and all that jazz.

   28. CNClay Newcomb27:17

       ... four, at least four other people. There may have been seven of us.

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       A lot of smelly motherfuckers.

   30. CNClay Newcomb27:20

       It's true.
8. 35:07 – 38:30

   Predation impact: bear studies, calf kills, and famous Yellowstone grizzlies

   1. CNClay Newcomb35:07

      Yeah. We just published an article that, um, recounted a... The study was probably done 10 years ago in Alaska and this was a brown bear study, and they, they ra- they've, they collared 17 brown bears in Alaska and they had a video. It was a video collar that took five-second videos every... no, 15-second videos every 10 minutes and the batteries on those at the time, the technology, they would last for like 60 days and then the collar would release and they would go gather the collar up. They, they were able to... They were... They put them on 17 bears. Seven bears lost the collar, so they had data from 10 bears. And... Ah, I wanna say it was seven bears. Th- this is gonna sound bizarre 'cause even as I read it, like, I wanted to just be like, "Man, this is crazy." But, I mean, this came from the biologist in Alaska. They killed... Those seven bears killed over 200 moose and caribou calves in a time of 45 days. I mean, they were just stomping around with the intent to kill moose and caribou calves. And it was a, it was a groundbreaking study because as far as I know, it was the first time that it was video evidence. So, I mean, they're, they're watching these bears on video.

   2. JRJoe Rogan36:32

      Hmm.

   3. CNClay Newcomb36:33

      It was also really cool because they, they, they-... laid out in percentages of time, of what that bear did, like, you know, like 80% of the time he was asleep, 6% of the time he just stood there. He would stand up and just stand there. Like, uh, I wanna say only 6% of his day, he actually fed. But in 45 days, less than 10 bears killed over 200 moose and caribou calves.

   4. JRJoe Rogan36:57

      Have you seen the photographs, uh, from Yellowstone of the recent... Uh, there's a wildlife photographer that captured a famous grizzly bear. I wanna say, it had a number, like 399 or something like that. And, uh, this- they caught this bear in the act of killing, uh, an elk calf and feeding it to the cubs.

   5. CNClay Newcomb37:18

      I don't think I've seen it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan37:18

      It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild, 'cause you see... The elk calf still has spots, it's real young.

   7. CNClay Newcomb37:23

      Mm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan37:23

      And, uh, the bear catches up to it and it's, like, a big dust-up and the, uh, even the- the cubs are duking it out over who gets to eat. It's pretty wild.

   9. CNClay Newcomb37:32

      Wow.

   10. JRJoe Rogan37:33

       It's pretty wild because they, you know, they caught it with a- a really good wildlife photographer. There's a whole series of photos. See if you, uh, can find it. It's- it's very recent. That's a lot though.

   11. CNClay Newcomb37:44

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan37:44

       And that- that- the impact on the species. And- but it's also for the health of the species, you need a certain amount of them. As you were saying, it's a great indicator species, right?

   13. CNClay Newcomb37:53

       Yeah. Yeah, and if, you know, if- if a bear needs-

   14. JRJoe Rogan37:57

       There it is.

   15. CNClay Newcomb37:58

       Oh, wow. Look at that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan37:59

       What number bear is that? There's a- the bear has a number. Yeah, it's 399. Famous grizzly, 399, kills elk calf on camera. But it's wild, man. Look at that seven-foot sow, and look at her chasing down that poor little guy.

   17. CNClay Newcomb38:12

       Man.

   18. JRJoe Rogan38:12

       No chance.

   19. CNClay Newcomb38:13

       What an incredible beast, man.

   20. JRJoe Rogan38:15

       Yeah. And then the- the babies were behind her and, uh, they were like, "What's going on, mom? What's happening?"

   21. CNClay Newcomb38:21

       Hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan38:23

       And they got the whole deal of it, chasing it down-

   23. CNClay Newcomb38:26

       Wow.

   24. JRJoe Rogan38:26

       ... and then eventually getting it, and then the... Pretty wild, man.

9. 38:30 – 49:25

   Bear defense: spray vs pistol, charge simulations, and caliber tradeoffs

   1. CNClay Newcomb38:30

      Yeah, it is. We just did a video on bear defense-

   2. JRJoe Rogan38:39

      Hmm.

   3. CNClay Newcomb38:39

      ... with, uh, through MeatEater we put out a video on bear defense of whether you should use a pistol or bear spray.

   4. JRJoe Rogan38:46

      What was the conclusion?

   5. CNClay Newcomb38:47

      Both. I mean, just to cut to the chase.

   6. JRJoe Rogan38:49

      Yeah.

   7. CNClay Newcomb38:50

      We interviewed a guy named Todd Orr. Have you heard of Todd Orr?

   8. JRJoe Rogan38:53

      He's that guy that got his head cut open in Montana?

   9. CNClay Newcomb38:55

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan38:55

       Yeah.

   11. CNClay Newcomb38:56

       Yeah. He had the viral video of him-

   12. JRJoe Rogan38:57

       Yeah.

   13. CNClay Newcomb38:57

       ... like, walking out.

   14. JRJoe Rogan38:58

       Wild.

   15. CNClay Newcomb38:58

       So- so we- I interviewed Todd, and then I went and was trained by- by pistol- a professional pistol shooter that, you know, talked to me about the sequence of drawing a pistol and shooting.

   16. JRJoe Rogan39:10

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CNClay Newcomb39:10

       And, uh, and then we went to the Montana Fish and Wildlife, and I did a bear simulation, bear charge simula- simulation with a, uh- with a remote control bear that will only go 23 miles per hour.

   18. JRJoe Rogan39:23

       Is there a video of that?

   19. CNClay Newcomb39:24

       Oh, it's on MeatEater YouTube.

   20. JRJoe Rogan39:26

       Okay. Go- I need to see that remote control bear.

   21. CNClay Newcomb39:28

       Oh, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan39:29

       (laughs)

   23. CNClay Newcomb39:29

       Well, Joe, what was wild about it was... I mean, to be responsible in grizz country, and to- to be clear about- with people, like, black bears- I'm not gonna say black bears are not dangerous, because black bears do kill people and do attack people. It is much less likely that a black bear is going to attack you as a brown or grizzly bear. Which, in the United States, brown- grizzly bears are only pretty much in one general area, which would be in northern Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, and they're filtering out into Colorado and parts of Washington. And, uh, that's where grizzly bears are, the greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. And those bears are very dangerous. I mean, very dangerous. I think there's already been a couple people killed this summer up there. So, the- the- the wild part- so you need to be responsible, and to be responsible means you need to have options and you need to be trained in those options. Bear spray is highly effective, but there are times when you don't want to shoot a bear with bear spray. You- there are times when it is life-threatening and a bear is trying to kill you and you need to take lethal action upon that bear. And so best case scenario-

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:47

       There it is. Oh my God.

   25. CNClay Newcomb40:48

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:49

       It's crazy how fast it comes on you.

   27. CNClay Newcomb40:51

       Well, okay.

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:52

       And that's slow.

   29. CNClay Newcomb40:53

       I- I sprayed the bear, but what happened to Todd Orr was he sprayed that bear right in the face, but that bear was running 35 miles an hour when it was eight feet away from him, and he hit it and the bear still hit him-

   30. JRJoe Rogan41:11

       Right.
10. 49:25 – 57:11

    Bear Grease storytelling: ‘Death of a Bear Hunter’ and why stories change us

    1. JRJoe Rogan49:25

       Well, it's always interesting when you see people that have lived with animals for generation after generation after generation, so they're passing down, like, either legends or traditions that are hundreds if not thousands of years old, and you get a, a sense of how important these animals were to these people. Like, uh, one of th- one of the ve- stories I really enjoyed on your podcast was the story from the 1800s about the two German bear hunters.

    2. CNClay Newcomb49:55

       Oh, yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:56

       Yeah, that's a great one, and it's... I really love how your podcast is produced too. It's a- whoever's editing it and putting music in it-

    4. CNClay Newcomb50:03

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan50:03

       ... they're doing a great job because it's- it takes you to a different place with the music and the way everything is- th- the sound is edited into it.

    6. CNClay Newcomb50:14

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan50:14

       It's really clever.

    8. CNClay Newcomb50:15

       Thank you.

    9. JRJoe Rogan50:15

       And it's, and it's something I would tell people, like, if you're gonna start off with one, start off with that one. It's a good one, because it's representative of- it gives you an understanding of what this is all about without hav- you having to have an interest in hunting.

    10. CNClay Newcomb50:29

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan50:29

        Like, that, uh, that transcends.

    12. CNClay Newcomb50:31

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan50:31

        Like, you don't have to be a bear hunter or any kind of hunter in that regard.

    14. CNClay Newcomb50:34

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JRJoe Rogan50:35

        L- listen to that podcast. It's really interesting.

    16. CNClay Newcomb50:37

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan50:38

        It- it transports you to think about what it was like for those people that relied on these animals for their food and how-

    18. CNClay Newcomb50:45

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan50:45

        ... incredibly risky it was.

    20. CNClay Newcomb50:47

        Yeah. I- so that episode was called Death of a Bear Hunter.

    21. JRJoe Rogan50:51

        Yeah.

    22. CNClay Newcomb50:51

        I think it's episode four. And, uh, we learned a lot on that episode. A lot of this is just kind of been an experiment to see how these stories come together, and it's been an incredible journey for me. I mean, like, I've had the time of my life making these podcasts, and, uh, when I first- You know, I read a section of this book that was published in 1854 written by Frederick Gerstaecker. Some pe- uh, the, the Germans would- s- will say that I'm pronouncing it wrong, and I'm sure I am.

    23. JRJoe Rogan51:23

        (laughs)

    24. CNClay Newcomb51:23

        Gerstaecker is what they say. And I read, like, a 10-minute section out of the book, and I remember when I first told, uh, the guy who was working with me on it, he was like- he was kind of like, "Okay." Like, uh, you know, "You sure this is going to keep people's attention?" And, and I was like, "Man, I think it's gonna be really good." And, uh, man, when I listened to it... You know, I, I, I record all this stuff and, and do all the interviews, but, um, you know, the guys- Phil Taylor at MeatEater is the one that puts it together. Like, I, I do basically, you know, 99% of the content editing. So, you know, I'm picking out what's in there, but Phil turns it into what you heard.

    25. JRJoe Rogan52:05

        Mmm.

    26. CNClay Newcomb52:06

        And man, when I- tha- that episode was the first one where we stitched together, like, a pretty robust story because it was, it was, it was, uh, centered around this guy getting killed by a bear out in the Ozark Mountains, you know, 20 miles from where I live, but it- the story involved my family. The story involved an old man named Ory Provence that I met that helped, uh, us locate potentially where the grave was. The story involved, uh, uh, a quest into human nature of why do stories impact us. And the beauty of that particular podcast, too, and really what I'm trying to do with Bear Grease is answer some real essential, genuine questions inside of me 'cause I remember where I was standing when I read that story in about 2008. I'm just reading this book. Somebody had told me about the book. A college professor had said, "Hey, there's some old bear hunting- Arkansas bear hunting stories in this book. You ought to read it." And I was like, "Uh, okay." Bought the book. Five years later, I start reading the book. I'm going through the pages and, and, uh, this- the book is called Wild Sports in the Far West, just to get that out there. The first one-third of the book, he's just traveling through the United States, which is fascinating, but because I'm- because the center of my world is Arkansas, I was waiting-

    27. JRJoe Rogan53:26

        And this takes place in 1840? Is that what it was?

    28. CNClay Newcomb53:28

        He arrived in the United States in 1837 and left in 1843, Frederick Gerstaecker did. And so, the first third of the book, he's traveling through the eastern United States and goes up into Canada, and finally, he gets to Arkansas, and I started reading this story, and I read the story of Erskine's death. And I mean, I was, I was offended that no one had ever told me the story before. It was like something incredible happening in your backyard, which I want to hear about your black panther. Um, but-

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:01

        I don't think it was a black panther.

    30. CNClay Newcomb54:02

        I got to see that. I got to see it. Well, the-
11. 57:11 – 1:10:11

    Bowie knives, hounds, and frontier bear hunting—plus modern PR problems

    1. CNClay Newcomb57:11

       You know, that was very common during that time. And I'm not taking anything away from this particular instance, but just for reference. And it- it makes perfect sense why it was common, because the way to hunt a bear was with a pack of hounds, and they were carrying one-shot muskets. They- they didn't have repeating rifles. So, what would happen is the- the- the dogs would bay the bear and some percentage of time inside of bear hunting with hounds, the- the bear does not run up a tree. Most of the time it runs up a tree and you're able to take the bear out of a tree. Some percentage of time, the bear stays on the ground.

    2. JRJoe Rogan57:45

       The larger bears tend to stay on the ground?

    3. CNClay Newcomb57:47

       Yeah, usually.

    4. JRJoe Rogan57:48

       'Cause they have a harder time climbing trees, too?

    5. CNClay Newcomb57:50

       I mean, a- a really big bear is harder to make climb, but you might have a young bear that won't climb either. So, the correlation is, yeah, bigger bears typically won't climb, but sometimes younger bears are bad about it too. But... So, you run up on this scene of bears, you know, dogs baying a bear. You shoot one time. (imitates gunshot) It... The bear's now been shot but still might have life in him, and so the- the- the situation escalates dramatically. You don't have time to reload. So what you do, you pull your Bowie knife, which is standard issue for a bear hunter during that time period, and you go in and you finish him.

    6. JRJoe Rogan58:30

       How big is the blade on a Bowie knife?

    7. CNClay Newcomb58:32

       Hmm.

    8. JRJoe Rogan58:33

       12 inches?

    9. CNClay Newcomb58:34

       At least 12 inches.

    10. JRJoe Rogan58:35

        (exhales)

    11. CNClay Newcomb58:36

        Yeah. Standard issue, man. Like, every- every bear hunter would have had one.

    12. JRJoe Rogan58:41

        Jesus.

    13. CNClay Newcomb58:42

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan58:43

        It's just a wild way to go at it.

    15. CNClay Newcomb58:45

        Yeah. There's a lot of American art that revolves around that idea. We have a painting in our home, believe it's William Fitzpatrick, it's called The Life of a Hunter. Uh, could you look that up for us? Life of a Hunter? And there are multiple iterations of incredible art from the 1800s of men on the ground with Bowie knives taking bears.

    16. JRJoe Rogan59:13

        Why was the bear thought of as... Oh, there's the image. Oh, Jesus.

    17. CNClay Newcomb59:16

        Okay, there's one of them. Now, that's not the one I have on my wall. I don't like that one as much.

    18. JRJoe Rogan59:20

        All right.

    19. CNClay Newcomb59:20

        Go... Keep looking. Uh...

    20. JRJoe Rogan59:23

        (laughs) Apologize?

    21. CNClay Newcomb59:24

        That is... That one. Uh, go left. This- this image right here. That actual image, the real original painting is- is in Bentonville, Arkansas at the Walton's Crystal Bridges Museum, the original of that. And, um, they don't... There's no dogs in this painting, but, you know, this scene is just so common during that time.

    22. JRJoe Rogan59:49

        Aunt Emma's. Oh, shit.

    23. CNClay Newcomb59:51

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan59:52

        This one?

    25. CNClay Newcomb59:53

        Now that... Okay, that's an illustration that was in the book.

    26. JRJoe Rogan59:57

        Yeah.

    27. CNClay Newcomb59:57

        Wild Sports in the Far West. So this was just an illustration. Man, I- I did an illustration, I like to draw, and I've got a pencil drawing that hangs in my office framed of- of the scene that I drew years ago.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

        Of that scene from-

    29. CNClay Newcomb1:00:12

        Yeah, yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:00:13

        Is... Do you have it online?
12. 1:10:11 – 1:26:15

    Trophy hunting, market hunting, and the conservation model that rebuilt wildlife

    1. CNClay Newcomb1:10:11

       Yeah, yeah. Have you ever heard the, um ... Ha- has anybody ever walked you through, like, the philosophy of the term trophy hunting and how it kinda came into-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:10:23

       No, no.

    3. CNClay Newcomb1:10:24

       So here's the short version, Joe, is that I'll start out with a controversial statement and I'll qualify it.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:31

       Okay.

    5. CNClay Newcomb1:10:32

       Trophy hunting is what saved North American wildlife. Trophy hunting. Imagine a market hunting culture where there was no ethic of ... Like, it was wi- literally the Wild West.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:46

       Let's explain that to people, how that all took place too, because most people don't understand-

    7. CNClay Newcomb1:10:50

       So market hunting, like b- e- essentially, when Europeans arrived here, they arrived into a, a, a, a wildlife bonanza like the Earth has not seen since of all the big game animals that we have now, and, and they began to hunt these animals for market, for profit. Okay? So, you know, the, the, the hides of animals were valued. The meat of animals were valued. A bear ... Bear fat was a commodity that could be traded as money. And so there was much incentive. Like, D- Daniel Boone and a lot of these guys, I mean, they made a good living as market hunters. And when I say good living, I mean they weren't getting rich, but fur traders could get rich. Um, and so market hunting was a career. "I'm a market hunter." That happened from ... In 150 years, essentially from 1750 to the turn of the century, 1900, basically was the, one of the greatest scale demolitions of wildlife that Planet Earth has ever seen. And-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:11:58

       And how long this go on for? How many years?

    9. CNClay Newcomb1:11:59

       Well, you know, I mean, Boone was born in 1734 and he died in 1820, and, and that was kinda the ... So, so let's just say from the late 1700s till the late 1800s, so roughly 150 years.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:12:14

        And during that time, the- there was also no refrigeration, so if you did shoot an animal, it was really only good for a certain amount of time.

    11. CNClay Newcomb1:12:22

        That's right.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:12:23

        And they had to sell it quickly.

    13. CNClay Newcomb1:12:24

        Yeah. But it, but it was common, like, if you ate bear meat ... or if you ate meat in a tow- in St. Louis, Missouri in, you know, 1820, you were probably eating some kind of wild game, you know. That was marketed and, and so, that was the mentality is if it's brown, it's down. Kill anything. There was no ethic involved in it in terms of conservation. That wasn't on people's minds. Like, it wasn't invented yet. And in the late 1800s, Teddy Roosevelt and a group of guys that would later form the Boone and Crockett Club, they foresaw the end of North American big game.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:13:01

        Hmm.

    15. CNClay Newcomb1:13:02

        They, they, they said, "We are going to... The big game of North America will be extinct in the next, you know, decade." Like, gone forever. Such that they went out to collect specimens to put in a museum in New York so that future Americans would know what a buffalo looked like because it was gonna be gone, so th- Americans would know what a mule deer looked like. And so they... Basically these great thinkers, of which Teddy Roosevelt and a bunch of them, th- there were other, many other men but Roosevelt was the big one, they were like, "We gotta change things or this thing's gonna die." And they created the B- the Boon and Crockett Club, which essentially gave credit, gave cultural value through a numerical number, the score of an animal, like... And, and, and so for people that don't hunt, today you might hear a hunter say, "Man, I killed 150-inch buck," and that means nothing to you, that's just a number. But to us, that means a lot because, oh wow, a 150-inch buck. Like we know the way that they're measured and we know that, man, that's a big buck.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:14:08

        And you're measuring the antlers.

    17. CNClay Newcomb1:14:09

        Measuring the antlers of a bear, you measure a skull. Um-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:14:13

        Or the length of the body.

    19. CNClay Newcomb1:14:15

        Well, f- for Boon and Crockett it's just the skull-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:14:17

        Oh, okay.

    21. CNClay Newcomb1:14:17

        ... just for, for, for measurement. The Boon and Crockett guys essentially came up with an ingenious plan that we are gonna give cultural value to older age males so that people will be incentivized to take older age males and let the juveniles and females go. And basically over the course of about 50 years, they changed the entire hunting culture of North America.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:14:44

        Wow.

    23. CNClay Newcomb1:14:44

        They, they, they, they, they picked us up from a market hunting, it's brown, it's down. There was no val- not much value put on big animals. Like, y- you can go back to some of the, the, uh, the, the Native American cultures and see that they put some value on big horns, but very little. And, and I'm not an expert on that. But essentially, this idea that we're now obsessed with big antlers comes from the idea that we want to save North American wildlife. And in a conservation perspective, the best animal to take out of a herd is an older mature male because he has contributed to the gene pool and it is a, it is not a loss to remove him. And so basically, they had this incredible idea that worked. And so that's what hurts me a little bit. Like, when you say trophy hunting, I'm like, "No." I mean, uh, I'm against... I mean, what you're, you are describing, I am against. The semantics of it though.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:15:41

        Right.

    25. CNClay Newcomb1:15:41

        Actually if you deep dive, and that's where you cannot understand these things if you just gloss over the surface, and that's the problem with so many parts of our world, is people look at a clip off YouTube and go, "Okay, I understand the whole thing." Man, you don't. E-

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:15:56

        That's a part of Louis Theroux's documentary as well, which explains that these animals, a lot of these animals in Africa were on the verge of extinction, and now they're in abundance, but they live in these high-fence hunting ranches.

    27. CNClay Newcomb1:16:08

        Right.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:16:08

        And it's, it's, it's a sort of a weird bittersweet victory because their, the numbers are huge.

    29. CNClay Newcomb1:16:15

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:16:15

        They're, they're higher than they've ever been before because there's value associated with them-

Episode duration: 2:37:13