Joe Rogan Experience #1678 - Michael Pollan

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. MPMichael Pollan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   4. MPMichael Pollan0:14

      All right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Mr. Pollan.

   6. MPMichael Pollan0:15

      Yeah, hey.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you, man.

   8. MPMichael Pollan0:16

      Good to be here, good to be back.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Good to see you again. And, uh, good to see you in the... You done with the headphones, huh?

   10. MPMichael Pollan0:22

       I'm done with the headphones, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       (laughs) In and out instantaneously. Um, your new book, This is Your Mind on Plants.

   12. MPMichael Pollan0:28

       Yeah, right here. (book thumps)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Yeah. I like it. Um, since you've been on, I, I have to say that out of all of the people that have discussed psychedelics, I think you've been one of the most important ones because you were a r- respected, esteemed journalist. You're like a r- a real writer already. And for you to int- introduce the world of psychedelics to people that maybe would've been skeptical of someone's intentions. Like, there's a lot of folks that, like, you read something about drugs, and even if it's from someone that has credentials, you sort of assume that they're trying to justify some-

   14. MPMichael Pollan1:08

       Yeah, they have an agenda starting-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Yeah.

   16. MPMichael Pollan1:10

       ... when they're starting out. I think you're right. I think that made a huge difference. I was coming at that world from outside. I'd had very little experience with psychedelics, virtually none as a kid. Um, I'd heard about this research. I was curious, I was skeptical, and so I went on this journey that brought me into this community. And, um, and I think that allowed people to follow me, to come with me. I think people would r- much rather go on a journey with you than have you lecture at them.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Oh, for sure.

   18. MPMichael Pollan1:40

       And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:40

       Yeah.

   20. MPMichael Pollan1:40

       ... so I alwa- in all my journalism, that's what I try to do. I, I, I start out as unknowing or ignorant as the reader-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MPMichael Pollan1:48

       ... and, uh, and then gradually work my way into the world of whether it's food and agriculture or psychedelics. And, um, uh, so in all my books, I kinda start out like an idiot. And (laughs) gradually-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       (laughs)

   24. MPMichael Pollan2:01

       ... move toward, toward a state of knowledge or more knowledge.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       I think that's incredibly relatable to people, because it, it just, it, it lets people know what you're learning, how you're learning it-

   26. MPMichael Pollan2:12

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       ... and why you're learning it, and what-

   28. MPMichael Pollan2:13

       And how you come to your conclusions.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:14

       Yeah.

   30. MPMichael Pollan2:14

       That it's the result of having these experiences or talking to these people. And they see the, they see the, the, all the armature of journalists, and they see how it works, um, 'cause you're letting them, you know, you're being very transparent about the process. Um, and also, y- you know, I think that, you know, there are lots of... Uh, most of the stuff that'd been written about psychedelics and most of the stuff I was reading was written from, like, inside the world, already convinced that these were great things that were gonna change human consciousness. And that's a turn off to people, especially if you have this resistance, which many, many people do. There's so much cultural baggage around psychedelics left over from the '60s. You know, people-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Hmm. …

   1. MPMichael Pollan15:00

      this. And so far, the gover- the governor's been very cooperative. Whether the FDA will put up with it, you know, it's kind of usurping their power to regulate drugs.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      Hmm.

   3. MPMichael Pollan15:09

      There's a whole lots of complications, but it's gonna be really interesting to watch. But it's, it's, it's the beginning of this process of figuring out a culture around drugs, rather than just say no. And, and I think that's gonna be the cultural work that we're gonna be doing over the next couple decades, is figuring out a safe way, a productive way to use these substances instead of simply banning them.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      Yeah, I think that's what's really important is people do have to understand the risks involved in all these different things, and it's not simple. It's not clean. And we have to understand dosages, we have to understand w- the, the set and setting, what's the right way to use 'em, when not to use 'em. Certain people will be vulnerable.

   5. MPMichael Pollan15:50

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      Especially people that are psychologically vulnerable. They, they shouldn't be, uh, experimenting with these things. And if it, we... Because of all of the years of suppression, unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on-

   7. MPMichael Pollan16:03

      Exactly.

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:03

      ... in terms of a roadmap.

   9. MPMichael Pollan16:05

      Exactly. And that's why it's gonna be hard work. And, and that's one of the reasons in the, uh, third section of this book on mescaline, I, I spent a lot of time looking at the Native American church, because I think indigenous use of psychedelics has a lot to teach us. Um, I don't think we can just borrow it, their methods, lock, stock, and barrel, but there's certain principles that are really interesting and helpful. Um, one is, you seldom do it alone. Um, you always do it with intention, purpose. There is usually an elder involved to guide you. Um, and it's always surrounded by ritual, and I think that's really significant. Um, and people who use drugs in a ritual way seldom get into trouble.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Hmm.

   11. MPMichael Pollan16:50

       Even alcohol. I mean, t- alcohol's, right, it does m- more damage than any of these drugs we're talking about. Um, and, uh, uh ... So people who use alcohol in a ritual way, which is to say, you know, think of the social rituals we have. You don't e- you don't drink 'til the evening, right? You don't start off in the morning drinking. You-

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       Or toast to a wedding or something like that.

   13. MPMichael Pollan17:12

       Right, yeah. That, that's a ritual that we, uh, and, and then also that we, we have, uh, alcohol with food very often. Um, we t- we don't drive after we drink. Um, you know, it's a social thing. Uh, people who drink that way are not the ones who get in serious trouble with it, um, if they can stick to those rituals and rules. And that's true across the board. So, I spent a lot of time interviewing Native Americans about the peyote ceremony and how they use it. And, you know, we think of psychedelics as incredibly disruptive to society, and in some ways it was in the '60s, right? I mean, you know, it, it fed the anti-war movement, um, it led to the generation gap and, and lots of, you know, tensions came out of it. A lot of productive things came out of it too, um, but we think of it as very disruptive. Um, but in the Native American community, you have this model of drug use that's incredibly conservative and moral. Um, it's this very rigid ceremony. Everybody sits around the fire, stares at the fire. There, there are rules about which way the basket of peyote passes around the room. There are songs you sing in certain ways. There's drumming. Um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       Did you do it?

   15. MPMichael Pollan18:21

       No, I didn't, and I'll tell you why in a second. And the, um, uh, the focus is on healing somebody, um, and somebody who's got trauma, someone who's d- who has alcoholism, spousal abuse, um, or a big rite of passage, someone's going off to the army or whatever it is. Um, and everyone's attention is focused on that person. And, um, and Native Americans say it is incredibly therapeutic and, and it has been vital to the survival of Indian culture, which as you know, you know, uh, we tried to stamp out. We, meaning white Americans, tried to crush, um, in the 19th century. And that's when peyoteism arose is when Indian culture was on the verge of complete collapse. It was a really dark moment. They were forcing Indians onto reservations in Oklahoma. They were taking boys, uh, young boys, cutting their hair, and sending 'em off to boarding school with the e- explicit goal of, this was what the superintendent of one of these schools said, "To kill the Indian and save the man."... and peyotism arose at this moment as a way to hold onto culture and heal trauma, and it worked.

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Yeah, I don't think there's a p- particularly long history of peyotism.

   17. MPMichael Pollan19:35

       It's not ancient. Uh, well, in a, with North American-

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       Right.

   19. MPMichael Pollan19:38

       ... Indians, peyotism really begins in the 1880s, which is when-

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       Really?

   21. MPMichael Pollan19:43

       ... this ... Yeah. And the church is not actually established till 1918, but it's in the 1880s. However, there were Indians in Texas, and many more in Mexico, that had been using peyote continually for thousands of years.

   22. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       Do you know what specific tribes?

   23. MPMichael Pollan20:02

       Uh, the Huichol in, in Mexico. I don't know which the, uh, Texas tribes were. Um, but-

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       And they were using it in the same ritual fashion?

   25. MPMichael Pollan20:10

       We don't know exactly what the ritual was, but they were using it. So the oldest archeological evidence is from Texas. It's, uh, on the Rio Grande. There's something called the Shumla Caves, which is an archeological dig that was discovered a few decades ago. And they found there peyote effigies, little dolls made out of peyote, um, and evidence that they were being used ceremonially. So it's the oldest psychedelic. So even though that chain was broken with some North American tribes ... 'Cause it only grows, by the way, in Texas. There's a very small band of, uh, near Laredo where the peyote gardens are.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:44

       Mm.

   27. MPMichael Pollan20:45

       And, um, so it, uh, it was kind of rediscovered and moved up to Oklahoma, and then it spread around the country from there.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       When you say it's the oldest psychedelic, do you mean-

   29. MPMichael Pollan20:56

       That we know of, that we have evidence it was being used, um, 6,000 years ago.

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:02

       Really?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. MPMichael Pollan30:00

      um, in that sounds got associated with ideas and meanings.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MPMichael Pollan30:05

      In the same way when you take a psychedelic, often you can see musical notes or taste them-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MPMichael Pollan30:09

      ... or whatever. And so this is what gave us language. Um, I still don't get... So the people who had this tool were more likely to reproduce? How does it g- how does it actually get into the genome?

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:22

      There's a bunch of things that he... I mean, obviously this is purely speculative, right? He's just trying to figure out and connect the dots. And Dennis does a better job, I think, of explaining it from a scientific perspective. But Terence's position was there was a bunch of things that were happening that coincided with climate change. So these, um, jungles, these, uh, tropical rainforests were receding into grasslands.

   7. MPMichael Pollan30:42

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:42

      As they were receding into grasslands, the primates were climbing out of trees and experimenting with new foods, food sources. One of the things that they've recognized is that primates in the presence of ungulates will flip over their manure and look for these cow patties and look for beetles and grubs 'cause they know that there's always something that's under... Bugs-

   9. MPMichael Pollan31:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       ... oftentime are under there, and of course mushrooms are growing on them.

   11. MPMichael Pollan31:06

       Growing on them.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       So they would experiment by trying these different things to see if they're edible. In consuming psilocybin, particularly in low doses, psilocybin positively affects, uh, visual acuity.

   13. MPMichael Pollan31:18

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:18

       So it makes you-

   15. MPMichael Pollan31:19

       So they were better hunters?

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Better hunters, um, more accurate in edge detection. So there's been studies where if you have two parallel lines, if the parallel line shifts slightly, the people who are on psilocybin are far more likely to be able to detect that than people that are on the natch.

   17. MPMichael Pollan31:37

       Ah, fascinating.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:38

       Yeah, so that's one. Um-

   19. MPMichael Pollan31:39

       There's some cultures that give psilocybin to their hunting dogs.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:42

       It makes sense.

   21. MPMichael Pollan31:43

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:44

       It makes sense. There's, there's a, a clarity involved in, in consumption of psilocybin where it sort of eliminates, uh, anxiety. It, it, it focuses you on tasks at hand, specifically in lower doses.

   23. MPMichael Pollan31:58

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:58

       Like, one of the things that people are doing that I... I have a lot of friends that are doing it right now, is microdosing.

   25. MPMichael Pollan32:03

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:03

       It's very, very popular, and their perspective is that there's something about microdosing that allows them to be more present, it allows them to feel better and b- be less anxious-

   27. MPMichael Pollan32:13

       Work better and feel more creative.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       ... work better.

   29. MPMichael Pollan32:15

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       The other thing about psilocybin is that it, um, enhances, uh, community. So, uh, the idea that all these primates were doing it together, they were more loving, more, and, and more, um-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Have you talked to…

   1. MPMichael Pollan45:00

      terrible. And they're, you know, they're rightly called deaths of despair. And, um-... whereas people in other environments can use opiates without a problem. Um, and we don't pay enough attention to that. Um, uh, that, you know, that there's, it's contextual whether people get addicted or not. Or it's a, it's a function of their history that they're, they're people, very, most addicts, uh, according to a lot of research, were tr- had trauma in their lives at some point, and they're dealing with that. Um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:26

      Have you talked to Dr. Carl Hart?

   3. MPMichael Pollan45:29

      Yes, I have. Well, I've exchanged email with him, and I just read his book. Um, yeah, Drug Use for Grown-Ups. It's a really interesting and courageous book.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:36

      He's a fascinating person.

   5. MPMichael Pollan45:37

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:38

      And brilliant. And because of his brilliance and because of the fact that he's a professor at Columbia, but yet has the courage to talk about regular use of drugs-

   7. MPMichael Pollan45:49

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:49

      ... and that-

   9. MPMichael Pollan45:49

      Hard drugs, so called.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:51

       He loves heroin.

   11. MPMichael Pollan45:52

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:53

       He sniffs heroin. He said it makes him closer to his wife. It makes him a kinder person.

   13. MPMichael Pollan45:58

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:58

       And it's so easy to dismiss coming from someone, you know, who maybe is not an academic and someone who's not, uh, j- just so articulate. And when it comes from a guy like him, you gotta go, "W- wait."

   15. MPMichael Pollan46:10

       Yeah. I know, I know.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       "You do fucking heroin?" Like-

   17. MPMichael Pollan46:13

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:13

       ... heroin's bad for you.

   19. MPMichael Pollan46:13

       Well, I mean, we've learned that-

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:14

       Yeah.

   21. MPMichael Pollan46:15

       ... heroin is just the most evil chemical going.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       Yeah.

   23. MPMichael Pollan46:17

       And-

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:17

       He loves coke. He-

   25. MPMichael Pollan46:18

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:18

       He loves cocaine, like real, pure cocaine.

   27. MPMichael Pollan46:19

       Yeah. He's had nice things to say about meth. He said it's very similar to MDMA.

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:23

       (laughs)

   29. MPMichael Pollan46:24

       I know. It's a pretty wild book to read. Um-

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:26

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:14:29

   Hmm. …

   1. MPMichael Pollan1:00:00

      that with confidence yet. I think we actually have to do science about that to figure out. I mean, there's some preliminary research, for example, that was done at Imperial College in London that shows that people's nature connectedness goes up. Their scores of how connected you feel to the natural world, and tolerance for authoritarianism goes down, openness of personality goes up. So, these are preliminary, but if you think about who has participated in these studies, they tend to be inclined in that direction already.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

      Hmm.

   3. MPMichael Pollan1:00:29

      You really have to get like the Koch brothers or Trump-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

      (laughs)

   5. MPMichael Pollan1:00:33

      ... or somebody who's not inclined to like nature especially-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

      I'm glad you said that.

   7. MPMichael Pollan1:00:38

      ... and, and do it to them and see-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

      Yeah.

   9. MPMichael Pollan1:00:40

      ... if it changes their attitudes, 'cause I think we may be having people on the same side of the culture e- having reinforcing experiences. But I don't know, and it's something I would love to see research done on.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       That would be a great thing to do as a therapy for someone who has d-... Like maybe you, you've been a, a sexual harasser at work-

   11. MPMichael Pollan1:01:00

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       ... and they make you go to some place and have a psychedelic experience to realize the error of your ways.

   13. MPMichael Pollan1:01:07

       It'd be much gentler than the chemical castration they used to talk about. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

       Well, w- we don't have to go that far. But I mean, you know, just w- well i- i- maybe that's even a bad example. But so- maybe someone who's been accused of fraud or maybe-

   15. MPMichael Pollan1:01:19

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       ... someone who's embezzling money or maybe someone who's done something l- really unethical and you can pull-

   17. MPMichael Pollan1:01:24

       Or-

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       ... them aside and say, "Listen, this is-"

   19. MPMichael Pollan1:01:25

       Here's the choice.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       "... harming you."

   21. MPMichael Pollan1:01:27

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       "And you don't even realize it's harming you. You think you're getting away with these things, and, and having these psychedelic experiences maybe..." 'Cause that's one of the more confusing but illuminating things that you do learn from psychedelics is that things that you've done to other people have also harmed you-

   23. MPMichael Pollan1:01:46

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:47

       ... and, and you don't think about it until you're forced into reflection.

   25. MPMichael Pollan1:01:51

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

       And one of the things is ab- about psychedelics is the ruthlessly introspective nature of some of the journeys that you go on, where y- you really are forced to look at yourself and your actions and, and r- and come to, come to Jesus with it.

   27. MPMichael Pollan1:02:07

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:08

       You, you really have to 'cause th- there's n- they doesn't, they don't allow you any other... And people call it bad trips, you know, when you try to fight it, but-

   29. MPMichael Pollan1:02:14

       No, it's not the right term. Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:15

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:44:30