Joe Rogan Experience #1678 - Michael Pollan

Narrator 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Michael Pollan 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

Michael Pollan 0:14 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Mr. Pollan.

Michael Pollan 0:15 Yeah, hey.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Good to see you, man.

Michael Pollan 0:16 Good to be here, good to be back.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Good to see you again. And, uh, good to see you in the... You done with the headphones, huh?

Michael Pollan 0:22 I'm done with the headphones, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:23 (laughs) In and out instantaneously. Um, your new book, This is Your Mind on Plants.

Michael Pollan 0:28 Yeah, right here. (book thumps)

Joe Rogan 0:29 Yeah. I like it. Um, since you've been on, I, I have to say that out of all of the people that have discussed psychedelics, I think you've been one of the most important ones because you were a r- respected, esteemed journalist. You're like a r- a real writer already. And for you to int- introduce the world of psychedelics to people that maybe would've been skeptical of someone's intentions. Like, there's a lot of folks that, like, you read something about drugs, and even if it's from someone that has credentials, you sort of assume that they're trying to justify some-

Michael Pollan 1:08 Yeah, they have an agenda starting-

Joe Rogan 1:10 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:10 ... when they're starting out. I think you're right. I think that made a huge difference. I was coming at that world from outside. I'd had very little experience with psychedelics, virtually none as a kid. Um, I'd heard about this research. I was curious, I was skeptical, and so I went on this journey that brought me into this community. And, um, and I think that allowed people to follow me, to come with me. I think people would r- much rather go on a journey with you than have you lecture at them.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Oh, for sure.

Michael Pollan 1:40 And-

Joe Rogan 1:40 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:40 ... so I alwa- in all my journalism, that's what I try to do. I, I, I start out as unknowing or ignorant as the reader-

Joe Rogan 1:47 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:48 ... and, uh, and then gradually work my way into the world of whether it's food and agriculture or psychedelics. And, um, uh, so in all my books, I kinda start out like an idiot. And (laughs) gradually-

Joe Rogan 2:00 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 2:01 ... move toward, toward a state of knowledge or more knowledge.

Joe Rogan 2:04 I think that's incredibly relatable to people, because it, it just, it, it lets people know what you're learning, how you're learning it-

Michael Pollan 2:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:12 ... and why you're learning it, and what-

Michael Pollan 2:13 And how you come to your conclusions.

Joe Rogan 2:14 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 2:14 That it's the result of having these experiences or talking to these people. And they see the, they see the, the, all the armature of journalists, and they see how it works, um, 'cause you're letting them, you know, you're being very transparent about the process. Um, and also, y- you know, I think that, you know, there are lots of... Uh, most of the stuff that'd been written about psychedelics and most of the stuff I was reading was written from, like, inside the world, already convinced that these were great things that were gonna change human consciousness. And that's a turn off to people, especially if you have this resistance, which many, many people do. There's so much cultural baggage around psychedelics left over from the '60s. You know, people-

Joe Rogan 2:55 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 2:55 ... you know, the risks, the, um, how it, how disruptive it was to society, and, and people still hold these ideas in their head. People-

Joe Rogan 3:02 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 3:02 ... will say, "Well, don't people, like, jump off of buildings?"

Joe Rogan 3:04 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 3:05 "I mean, I hear th- ... Or doesn't it scramble your chromosomes?" Um, these are, these are urban legends by and large, although there were some people who jumped off of buildings. But, um, uh, the chromosome thing was not true, the staring at the sun 'til you go blind was not true. Um, but it's amazing the power of these memes and it just lingering in our culture.

Joe Rogan 3:25 Well, there's a great fear of losing your mind. I mean, y- you know about the guy from Pink Floyd-

Michael Pollan 3:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:30 ... and people hear about, you know, some guy in the neighborhood that did too much acid.

Michael Pollan 3:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:33 The thing is, they are real. Like, there are really-

Michael Pollan 3:36 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 ... people that have lost-

Michael Pollan 3:36 There are casualties.

Joe Rogan 3:37 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 3:37 And I think we have to acknowledge that. And I think unless we're really frank about the risks, we risk another backlash, 'cause bad shit will happen.

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yes.

Michael Pollan 3:46 Some, you know, if you're trialing, you know, a couple thousand people for depression, which they're doing, these clinical trials to see if psilocybin can help with depression, some of those people are gonna commit suicide. That's what depressed people do.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 3:58 And, you know, especially if you get them off their SSRIs, you know, that r- increases the risk. But that narrative, when someone in a clinical trial for depression w- with psychedelics gets out there, it'll plug into this old narrative about people jumping-

Joe Rogan 4:14 Right.

Michael Pollan 4:14 ... off of buildings. Whereas people routinely commit suicide on SSRIs and it doesn't make the news.

Joe Rogan 4:19 Right.

Michael Pollan 4:20 So there are these... It, it's when a story plugs into an existing narrative in the culture that it, that it really takes off. It has this, you know, incredible power. And that could happen. Um, so I, I think we should be... I think the way you inoculate the culture is talking about risk, and, and say that there were casualties. There are people who, you know, did, you know, I don't wanna say fry their brains, 'cause that's, it's, it's pretty imprecise, (laughs) but people had some psychotic breaks-

Joe Rogan 4:46 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 4:47 ... on psychedelics. Would they have had them anyway? There's reason to believe they would. It's not like schizophrenia rates went up during the '60s. Um-

Joe Rogan 4:55 Do you think it triggers schizophrenia, though?

Michael Pollan 4:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:57 Yeah, I thin-

Michael Pollan 4:57 I think that's probably what happens. Any kind of, uh, kind of traumatic experience can do it. Um, divorce, a parent can do it. You know, if you're at that age and you have that vulnerability, going to graduate school for a certain number of people does it.

Joe Rogan 5:11 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 5:12 Um, you know, extreme stress. And it, and it can be an extreme experience. Um, so there is a good reason that people, even second-degree relatives who have, uh, schizophrenia, you can't participate in any of these trials. They're screening people. And also for manic depression, they're, they're screening you out, and there are good reasons for that.

Joe Rogan 5:31 Yeah. There, um, there's this discussion about cannabis, um, that's been going on for a while now of, like, what happens to people when they, particularly when they eat edibles. Um, like, i- is, is it something that triggers schizophrenia? And I think the n- the numbers, as you're saying, they really do mirror the numbers that just happen in a general population. Like, it's one out of 100.

Michael Pollan 5:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:55 And one out of 100 people seem to have a significant problem.

Michael Pollan 5:59 Yeah, I, I mean, people, a c- certain number of people are, are at risk. They're bound to get schizophrenia a- at those windows. I think it's in, you know, right around 20 and right around 30, uh, years old seems to be the window. And-

Joe Rogan 6:12 Really?

Michael Pollan 6:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:13 Like, there's a very specific window right now?

Michael Pollan 6:14 Oh, yeah. No. It, it happens at a, a very specific time. And-

Joe Rogan 6:17 They think it's, like, transitionary periods in your life w- with additional stress, like, you have a breaking point or something?

Michael Pollan 6:23 Uh, it isn't really clear. It, it may be a developmental issue. Um, you know, boys or men are still developing into their 20s, right? Their brain development-

Joe Rogan 6:31 I think into their 50s.

Michael Pollan 6:32 (laughs) Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:33 That's what I'm thinking.

Michael Pollan 6:33 That's true too.

Joe Rogan 6:34 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 6:34 (laughs) But, um, uh, but there's certain brain structures that are not-... you know, finished, um, at that age. Honestly, I don't know. I'm, I'm out of my depth here.

Joe Rogan 6:43 Yeah. Um, what was the motivation to write this new book?

Michael Pollan 6:47 So (sighs) the motivation for this book grew out of a longstanding interest in our relationship to plants. I've been obsessed with plants since I was like an eight-year-old gardener. And, um, and I've written a lot about, uh, how we use plants and how plants use us, and that relationship has been of keen interest. And I looked at food. Uh, eating plants is obviously one of the big things we do with them and a big part of our relationship. Um, and, uh, and then when I started working on psychedelics, I was really struck by the fact that, um, one of the things humans have used plants for forever is to change consciousness. And that seemed like a very curious phenomenon. Um, but ev- there is... Every culture on Earth, with one notable exception, has some plant or fungus that they use regularly, and often ceremonially, to change consciousness. The exception are the Inuit, the Eskimos, and it's only because there's no-

Joe Rogan 7:41 Nothing's grow plants.

Michael Pollan 7:42 Nothing good grows where they live.

Joe Rogan 7:43 That's interesting. Do they change their consciousness at all? Do they use breathing exercises or-

Michael Pollan 7:47 They may well. I don't know, um, 'cause there are many ways to change your consciousness. You're right, breathing can do it. Uh, fasting can do it. Ex- ex- extreme exertion can do it. Um, so there are other tools for doing it, but most humans have used plants. Uh, you know, and of course, there's alcohol too, which changes consciousness. It's, it's... Alcohol is not produced by plants. It's actually produced by a fungus. But, um, so I was... I, I've always wanted to explore this issue of, why do we do this? What good is it to change consciousness? 'Cause you would think from an evolutionary point of view, it might be a bad idea. You know, when you change consciousness, you're more likely to have accidents. You're more vulnerable to predators, um, and, you know, so you would think that if it, that it would be kinda edited out by natural selection, but it hasn't been.

Joe Rogan 8:38 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 8:38 If drug-taking were really bad, the drug-takers would be gone from evolution, and they're not.

Joe Rogan 8:43 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 8:43 And so I started thinking, "Well, what are they good for? How do we use drugs? Why are they part of our lives?" And we're at this very interesting moment where the drug war is starting to end. I, I think we can see the end of the drug war. Um, the voters have spoken and they've essentially sued for peace. You know, we've had all these, um, ballot initiatives. What happened in Oregon last fall was amazing.

Joe Rogan 9:04 I think something just happened in California.

Michael Pollan 9:06 Yes, the California State Senate voted to legalize psychedelics, inc- and also MDMA.

Joe Rogan 9:13 Legalize or decriminalize?

Michael Pollan 9:14 You know, they, they sell it as decriminalize, but if you read the bill, it's legalize.

Joe Rogan 9:19 So, what is the specifics?

Michael Pollan 9:21 Well, the specifics are that those, the substance in the bill, which are LSD, MDMA, psilocybin, ibogaine, which is troubling given the specific risks associated with ibogaine, which we can talk about. Um, uh-

Joe Rogan 9:34 Kinda makes a trip to me.

Michael Pollan 9:35 ... DMT. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:35 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 9:36 DMT's in there. I don't know if 5-MeO-DMT is in there. I don't think it is. Uh, mescaline-producing cacti, um, uh, and basically, um, personal use, growing, and social sharing-

Joe Rogan 9:51 Huh.

Michael Pollan 9:51 ... is legal. N- no commercialization. Um, although that's, that gets a little weird because if a guide, let's say an underground guide, charges you $1,500 for her services and just gives you the psilocybin, is that commercialization or not?

Joe Rogan 10:09 Right. Is that... Is it legal to be a guide? Like that seems commercializa-

Michael Pollan 10:13 Well-

Joe Rogan 10:14 Even if someone brings their own.

Michael Pollan 10:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Right? I mean, you're sort of profiting off-

Michael Pollan 10:18 That's vague.

Joe Rogan 10:19 ... of the use.

Michael Pollan 10:19 It's, I... Frankly, some aspects of this bill do not strike me as being completely well thought out. I mean, including ibogaine where you really should have a health examination before you use it.

Joe Rogan 10:30 Why? Why is that?

Michael Pollan 10:31 Well, ibogaine has shown some... This is a African shrub that is a psychedelic used in Africa for a long time. Um-

Joe Rogan 10:38 Which is apparently phenomenal for people with-

Michael Pollan 10:40 Opiate, yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:41 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 10:41 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:41 Addictions.

Michael Pollan 10:41 So, 'cause in addition to giving you the psychedelic experience, it removes the craving for opium. So it's been... There's a lot of clinics in Mexico who are using it. However-

Joe Rogan 10:50 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 10:51 ... the, the, the, the medical advice is you should be on a heart monitor the whole time you're using it because it can lead to various, um, cardiovascular events. And, um, so it's, it's not, it's not as benign as some other psychedelics in terms of the physiology. Um, anyway, this still has to get through the assembly. Um, it's amazing it got passed. Uh, this just happened June 1st. Um, and then we had... You know, we also had a, a whole bunch of decriminalization, uh, uh, initiatives. Washington DC voted to decriminalize plant medicines and, and entheogens. Um, so we're getting to this new place where the public has had it with the drug war. Neither party really wants to fight it anymore. Even the Republicans are backing off on drug war. It's not part of the culture wars now, which is fascinating. We, we are recognizing how much damage was done, um, you know, how many people's lives were ruined, how many people have, you know, we've incarcerated around the drug war, and it hasn't worked. We, you know, we have more overdoses now than we had, uh, before the opiate crisis. Um, you know, the biggest health problem related to the drug war has been, uh... I'm sorry. The biggest problem since we started this drug war, public health problem, has been the opiate crisis. 800,000 people have overdosed. Most of them started on legal opiates. Purdue Pharma, you know, did a lot more damage than any illicit drug, um, you know, economy.

Joe Rogan 12:16 Uh, doesn't Johnson & Johnson just decide-

Michael Pollan 12:17 Johnson & Johnson, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:18 ... to get out of the opiate game?

Michael Pollan 12:19 Yeah, and they settled with the government and said they're gonna stop selling them.

Joe Rogan 12:22 For a pittance.

Michael Pollan 12:22 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 12:22 A pi- t- it sounds like, you know, $230 million or whatever it was.

Michael Pollan 12:26 I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 12:26 That's nothing for that.

Michael Pollan 12:27 Yeah. So, so we're at this new moment where we have to figure out, okay, if we're not gonna just make them illegal, what are we gonna do with them? How do we fold them into our culture?

Joe Rogan 12:38 Right.

Michael Pollan 12:38 And one of the things I wanted to do in this book was start this conversation, this kinda more grownup conversation about how we use drugs in our lives, how we've used them in the past, uh, remind people that most of us do have a relationship with a plant drug. Caffeine being, you know, which I'm-

Joe Rogan 12:54 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 12:54 ... enjoying right here. Um-

Joe Rogan 12:56 Tea, uh, just a small amount of caffeine.

Michael Pollan 12:58 Yeah, relatively small.

Joe Rogan 12:59 This is, uh, Black Rifle Coffee-

Michael Pollan 13:01 Now, that's some serious stuff. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:01 ... Espresso. That is 300 milligrams.

Michael Pollan 13:04 You didn't offer me any of that.

Joe Rogan 13:05 You want one?

Michael Pollan 13:07 ... no, I think it'd be a bad idea, but thank you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:10 Oh, I wouldn't have known.

Michael Pollan 13:11 300 milligrams, that's-

Joe Rogan 13:12 I saw you at Tea-

Michael Pollan 13:12 ... that's a serious-

Joe Rogan 13:13 I think you're a teetotaler.

Michael Pollan 13:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:16 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 13:16 I'm a lightweight on caffeine, but.

Joe Rogan 13:18 Are you?

Michael Pollan 13:18 But I am dependent, as I learned in the course of the book. So, I wanted to learn, I wanted to talk a little bit about our relationship to drugs, what's a healthy relationship? I mean, drug abuse is real.

Joe Rogan 13:28 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 13:28 Uh, drug abuse is a bad relationship to a drug.

Joe Rogan 13:31 Right.

Michael Pollan 13:31 It's not about breaking the law, it's a bad relationship to a drug.

Joe Rogan 13:33 What do you think are the motivations for keeping these drugs illegal? I mean, clearly there's gotta be some influence by the pharmaceutical companies, there has to be. Because there are alternative treatments-

Michael Pollan 13:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:45 ... to a lot of different things, and if they looked at their bottom line, and if they were being shrewd, like, very cold, calculated money assassins-

Michael Pollan 13:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:55 ... they would probably say, "You know, it's not a good idea for us for all these drugs to be legal."

Michael Pollan 13:59 Yeah, but they don't have a leg to stand on after starting the opioid crisis.

Joe Rogan 14:02 They, but it doesn't matter if they have a leg to stand on-

Michael Pollan 14:04 No, they'll, they'll-

Joe Rogan 14:04 ... if there's no m- if there's no moral-

Michael Pollan 14:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:06 ... correct, you know, w- argument for their stance. They're still doing it to make money.

Michael Pollan 14:11 Yeah, and they may be out lobbying to keep these laws, but it's interesting, it's the citizens who are overturning them.

Joe Rogan 14:16 Yes.

Michael Pollan 14:16 Y- a lot of these are ballot initiatives-

Joe Rogan 14:17 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 14:18 ... that you can't, uh, lobby. And, uh, and what happened in Oregon, I mean, there were two things there. One was decriminalizing, uh, personal use of all drugs, even hard drugs, and directing people who are busted into, um, you know-

Joe Rogan 14:30 Their-

Michael Pollan 14:30 ... treatment.

Joe Rogan 14:31 ... treatments.

Michael Pollan 14:31 Har- harm reduction approach. And then, even more interesting was this, uh, Proposition 109, which legalizes psilocybin therapy specifically, but does it in a very thoughtful way. Um, they're, th- the proposition basically obligates the state health department to set up an institution that will regulate guides, train, regulate, and certify guides and regulate the growing of psilocybin. It's kind of an amazing idea that the state will do this. And so far, the gover- the governor's been very cooperative. Whether the FDA will put up with it, you know, it's kind of usurping their power to regulate drugs.

Joe Rogan 15:09 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 15:09 There's a whole lots of complications, but it's gonna be really interesting to watch. But it's, it's, it's the beginning of this process of figuring out a culture around drugs, rather than just say no. And, and I think that's gonna be the cultural work that we're gonna be doing over the next couple decades, is figuring out a safe way, a productive way to use these substances instead of simply banning them.

Joe Rogan 15:33 Yeah, I think that's what's really important is people do have to understand the risks involved in all these different things, and it's not simple. It's not clean. And we have to understand dosages, we have to understand w- the, the set and setting, what's the right way to use 'em, when not to use 'em. Certain people will be vulnerable.

Michael Pollan 15:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:50 Especially people that are psychologically vulnerable. They, they shouldn't be, uh, experimenting with these things. And if it, we... Because of all of the years of suppression, unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on-

Michael Pollan 16:03 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 16:03 ... in terms of a roadmap.

Michael Pollan 16:05 Exactly. And that's why it's gonna be hard work. And, and that's one of the reasons in the, uh, third section of this book on mescaline, I, I spent a lot of time looking at the Native American church, because I think indigenous use of psychedelics has a lot to teach us. Um, I don't think we can just borrow it, their methods, lock, stock, and barrel, but there's certain principles that are really interesting and helpful. Um, one is, you seldom do it alone. Um, you always do it with intention, purpose. There is usually an elder involved to guide you. Um, and it's always surrounded by ritual, and I think that's really significant. Um, and people who use drugs in a ritual way seldom get into trouble.

Joe Rogan 16:49 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 16:50 Even alcohol. I mean, t- alcohol's, right, it does m- more damage than any of these drugs we're talking about. Um, and, uh, uh ... So people who use alcohol in a ritual way, which is to say, you know, think of the social rituals we have. You don't e- you don't drink 'til the evening, right? You don't start off in the morning drinking. You-

Joe Rogan 17:10 Or toast to a wedding or something like that.

Michael Pollan 17:12 Right, yeah. That, that's a ritual that we, uh, and, and then also that we, we have, uh, alcohol with food very often. Um, we t- we don't drive after we drink. Um, you know, it's a social thing. Uh, people who drink that way are not the ones who get in serious trouble with it, um, if they can stick to those rituals and rules. And that's true across the board. So, I spent a lot of time interviewing Native Americans about the peyote ceremony and how they use it. And, you know, we think of psychedelics as incredibly disruptive to society, and in some ways it was in the '60s, right? I mean, you know, it, it fed the anti-war movement, um, it led to the generation gap and, and lots of, you know, tensions came out of it. A lot of productive things came out of it too, um, but we think of it as very disruptive. Um, but in the Native American community, you have this model of drug use that's incredibly conservative and moral. Um, it's this very rigid ceremony. Everybody sits around the fire, stares at the fire. There, there are rules about which way the basket of peyote passes around the room. There are songs you sing in certain ways. There's drumming. Um-

Joe Rogan 18:20 Did you do it?

Michael Pollan 18:21 No, I didn't, and I'll tell you why in a second. And the, um, uh, the focus is on healing somebody, um, and somebody who's got trauma, someone who's d- who has alcoholism, spousal abuse, um, or a big rite of passage, someone's going off to the army or whatever it is. Um, and everyone's attention is focused on that person. And, um, and Native Americans say it is incredibly therapeutic and, and it has been vital to the survival of Indian culture, which as you know, you know, uh, we tried to stamp out. We, meaning white Americans, tried to crush, um, in the 19th century. And that's when peyoteism arose is when Indian culture was on the verge of complete collapse. It was a really dark moment. They were forcing Indians onto reservations in Oklahoma. They were taking boys, uh, young boys, cutting their hair, and sending 'em off to boarding school with the e- explicit goal of, this was what the superintendent of one of these schools said, "To kill the Indian and save the man."... and peyotism arose at this moment as a way to hold onto culture and heal trauma, and it worked.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Yeah, I don't think there's a p- particularly long history of peyotism.

Michael Pollan 19:35 It's not ancient. Uh, well, in a, with North American-

Joe Rogan 19:38 Right.

Michael Pollan 19:38 ... Indians, peyotism really begins in the 1880s, which is when-

Joe Rogan 19:43 Really?

Michael Pollan 19:43 ... this ... Yeah. And the church is not actually established till 1918, but it's in the 1880s. However, there were Indians in Texas, and many more in Mexico, that had been using peyote continually for thousands of years.

Joe Rogan 20:00 Do you know what specific tribes?

Michael Pollan 20:02 Uh, the Huichol in, in Mexico. I don't know which the, uh, Texas tribes were. Um, but-

Joe Rogan 20:08 And they were using it in the same ritual fashion?

Michael Pollan 20:10 We don't know exactly what the ritual was, but they were using it. So the oldest archeological evidence is from Texas. It's, uh, on the Rio Grande. There's something called the Shumla Caves, which is an archeological dig that was discovered a few decades ago. And they found there peyote effigies, little dolls made out of peyote, um, and evidence that they were being used ceremonially. So it's the oldest psychedelic. So even though that chain was broken with some North American tribes ... 'Cause it only grows, by the way, in Texas. There's a very small band of, uh, near Laredo where the peyote gardens are.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Mm.

Michael Pollan 20:45 And, um, so it, uh, it was kind of rediscovered and moved up to Oklahoma, and then it spread around the country from there.

Joe Rogan 20:54 When you say it's the oldest psychedelic, do you mean-

Michael Pollan 20:56 That we know of, that we have evidence it was being used, um, 6,000 years ago.

Joe Rogan 21:02 Really?

Michael Pollan 21:02 Yeah. There may be older ones, but I, I haven't seen the record of that.

Joe Rogan 21:05 What is the evidence? The-

Michael Pollan 21:06 It's the North-

Joe Rogan 21:07 It's just-

Michael Pollan 21:07 It's this-

Joe Rogan 21:07 ... the Native American?

Michael Pollan 21:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Oh, so that's 6,000 years old?

Michael Pollan 21:10 6,000 years ago.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Wow.

Michael Pollan 21:11 I mean, I don't know who, you know, which group it was. Um, but they were, there was evidence that there were these religious objects that they created, and they actually made them out of peyote, and they tested it, and it was peyote.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Wow.

Michael Pollan 21:24 Um, so, uh, it's been around, uh, even if it hasn't been in continuous use among American Indians. But, um, they're ... You know, I- I just think that's such an interesting model, uh, for how to think about it. And you know, we have to come up with our own cultural container. It's ... We're not gonna just take the Indian container. It doesn't feel right to us, and it would be cultural appropriation. (laughs) But, um, but that's what we have to figure out, you know. What are the proper rituals in which to use psychedelics?

Joe Rogan 21:51 D- do you ... Are you aware of, um, the book The Immortality Key?

Michael Pollan 21:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:55 Brian Muraresku's book?

Michael Pollan 21:57 Yeah. Fascinating.

Joe Rogan 21:57 Fascinating.

Michael Pollan 21:58 And he's found ... You know, he's writing about evidence of very early use in the Old World of psychedelic compounds. Uh, ergot-

Joe Rogan 22:06 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:06 ... which is the fungus from which LSD is derived, was found in some communion cups, right?

Joe Rogan 22:12 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:12 In Spain.

Joe Rogan 22:13 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:14 That's kinda wild.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Wild.

Michael Pollan 22:15 And, and the idea that the Eucharist, uh, may have involved a psychedelic. There was also cannabis found in some Jewish sites-

Joe Rogan 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 22:24 ... uh, from that period. And I've always wondered about wine in Greece, you know, that they would talk about these wild Dionysian revels. And th- and they drank wine out of glasses like this big.

Joe Rogan 22:34 Right.

Michael Pollan 22:35 There had to be something else.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Oh, for sure. And also, did you know wine back then had a very low alcohol content?

Michael Pollan 22:40 I didn't know that.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:41 All the more reason-

Joe Rogan 22:42 So did beer.

Michael Pollan 22:42 ... to suspect-

Joe Rogan 22:43 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:43 ... that, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:44 They were spiking it.

Michael Pollan 22:45 They were spiking it with something.

Joe Rogan 22:46 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 22:46 We don't know what. I mean, and we don't know how d- how you would use ergot, because ergot can also give you gangrene. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:53 Really?

Michael Pollan 22:53 Oh, yeah. Ergot-

Joe Rogan 22:55 Or, or ... When you take it orally, it would give you gangrenous?

Michael Pollan 22:56 I don't know. Uh, well, I don't know how else you'd take it. But people w- ... So, ergotism was this disease people got when they ate ... You know, in a wet year, the rye crop would get all this ergot on it, but people were desperate. They would still make bread from it, and it would make people, uh, kinda crazy.

Joe Rogan 23:13 Well, they think that that is the Salem witch trials.

Michael Pollan 23:15 Right. That's one theory.

Joe Rogan 23:17 It came from that, yeah.

Michael Pollan 23:17 And that you have these outbreaks of what was called witchcraft, which was just people having visions and-

Joe Rogan 23:23 Tripping.

Michael Pollan 23:23 ... tripping, basically.

Joe Rogan 23:25 Accidentally. Yeah.

Michael Pollan 23:25 Yeah. And so ... And there are episodes all through European history of these outbreaks. Saint Vitus de Anshe was another term that was used for this. And, um-

Joe Rogan 23:33 And those outbreaks coincide with core samples that show, like, particularly, um, late frosts-

Michael Pollan 23:37 Yeah, and, and especially wet years, where, when you've got lots of-

Joe Rogan 23:40 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 23:40 ... fungus. And, um ... But the other effect you can get from eating this stuff is, is, uh, gangrene. So, if it was consumed as a drug, it was processed in some way to make it safe.

Joe Rogan 23:51 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 23:52 And the Eleusinian Mysteries that Brian talks about in that book, too, which was this rite in Greece that went on for thousands of years, and every great Greek writer, politician participated in this, there was a potion that they would t- take called the kykeon. Everyone was sworn to secrecy, so no one talked about this. But they would take this potion and go-

Joe Rogan 24:15 Kykeon, right?

Michael Pollan 24:16 Kykeon or kee-kee-on. I don't, I don't know. My Greek is shitty.

Joe Rogan 24:19 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 24:19 Um, K-Y-K-E-O-N. And they would, um, uh, go to the under- underworld and visit with their ancestors and have these visions.

Joe Rogan 24:28 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 24:29 And it kinda makes sense when you think of, like, Plato's idea that there's an unseen realm right next to this one-

Joe Rogan 24:34 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 24:34 ... uh, where the real table is, you know.

Joe Rogan 24:37 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 24:37 And this is just the secondary table. Um, so, but how do we prove these things, you know? Um, um, the, the work ... These archeologists are doing interesting work. Uh, and there's gonna be a new institute at Harvard working on some of these questions as well.

Joe Rogan 24:51 Yeah, and it is all sparked by Brian's work.

Michael Pollan 24:53 I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 24:54 And Brian's appearance on this podcast, in fact-

Michael Pollan 24:56 Oh, really? Led to that?

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... initiated these discussions, because they've realized ... Like, when, when you hear him talk about it and you understand the amount of research this guy has done for over a decade-

Michael Pollan 25:06 Ah, it's been a ...

Joe Rogan 25:06 ... pursuing this. And it's a really r- It was a big risk, b- because until they found the samples that indicated there was ergot inside these vessels, they really didn't know if this was speculative, is this all horse shit. You know, they didn't know. And now they do know, and it's, it's-

Michael Pollan 25:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:22 It all makes sense, right? If for anybody who's ever done-

Michael Pollan 25:24 It makes a lot of sense.

Joe Rogan 25:25 ... a psychedelic drug-

Michael Pollan 25:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:25 ... it makes sense.

Michael Pollan 25:27 I ... You know, look, I think psychedelics have had a very profound effect on cultural evolution in many, many ways. Um, the, the encounter of these molecules with a certain mind produces a-... memes, new ideas, metaphors, theories, and visions that sometimes, not always, um, ends up changing everything. Um, you know, 99% of the things people, insights people have on psychedelics are probably not that valuable, you know? Th- I mean, they may be personally useful, you know, love is everything, whatever it is. But every now and then, in a certain mind, uh, there is an idea. And it might be a vision of an afterworld, it might be the idea of an unseen otherworld, a beyond, um, and then that person tells that story. And suddenly, this enters culture. "Yeah, somebody had a vision. They went up on a mountain and they saw God." It's a very plausible explanation for how religion might get started.

Joe Rogan 26:24 It completely makes sense to me. And in fact, d- wasn't there... There's been some work at the, w- one of the universities in Israel where they were s- they're s- trying to connect the, uh, acacia tree with, uh, the burning bush that Moses saw.

Michael Pollan 26:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:39 'Cause the acacia tree apparently is rich in DMT and they're trying to s- th- their, their connection they're making is the burning bush, being God, was-

Michael Pollan 26:48 Was.

Joe Rogan 26:49 ... consuming smoked DMT.

Michael Pollan 26:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:52 And that they were having this vision-

Michael Pollan 26:54 Wow.

Joe Rogan 26:54 ... that Moses was has- I mean, it makes sense if you're, if you're translating things from Ancient Hebrew-

Michael Pollan 26:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:58 ... to Latin, to Greek, to whatever the fuck they're doing, you're gonna lose a lot of whatever they're trying to say, and especially when you're talking about-

Michael Pollan 27:04 And you're gonna w- not know what's a metaphor and what's literal.

Joe Rogan 27:07 Exactly. Exactly.

Michael Pollan 27:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:08 And that's what they think, too. Yeah.

Michael Pollan 27:09 That's fascinating. I haven't heard about that. I have to follow up on that. So I'm very interested in the role that psychedelics have played. And it's true in science too, right? I mean, we just took a PCR test, I think, uh, you know, COVID test, and who invented PCR? A scientist named Kary Mullis, who got the idea, um, on an LSD trip in Northern California.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 27:29 And he's wr- and he's talked about it, and he said, "LSD allowed me to sit on the molecule and watch and see what was going on." And so that encounter of that molecule with that mind gave us this amazing tool that all of genetics depends on.

Joe Rogan 27:43 Yeah. Well, d- we took a rapid antigen test, by the way.

Michael Pollan 27:46 Oh, okay. All right.

Joe Rogan 27:46 We didn't take a PCR test.

Michael Pollan 27:47 All right.

Joe Rogan 27:48 But yeah, he's, uh-

Michael Pollan 27:48 Thanks for the fact check.

Joe Rogan 27:49 He's spoken out about that, and he just, uh, said s- "It's not what it's for. It shouldn't be used in that regard."

Michael Pollan 27:54 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 27:55 Yeah. He, uh-

Michael Pollan 27:56 But anyway, it's been-

Joe Rogan 27:56 But, uh, but he found it again.

Michael Pollan 27:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Figured it out.

Michael Pollan 27:59 And there's, you know, there's, there are many stories through history. I mean, I think, you know, the human imagination has a natural history, right? It has to. Everything has a natural history. So what is that natural history? Well, I think drugs of all kinds played a very important role at certain key moments in, uh, in the evolution of that, that thing we call the imagination.

Joe Rogan 28:19 Well, I think the last time you were here, we talked about Terence McKenna's stoned ape theory-

Michael Pollan 28:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:23 ... which is the most fascinating.

Michael Pollan 28:24 I know. And, and the one I have the most trouble getting my head around, um-

Joe Rogan 28:30 Have you talked to Dennis about it? Dennis McKenna?

Michael Pollan 28:31 Yeah. Oh, yeah, we've talked about it. We're doing an event together actually, uh-

Joe Rogan 28:34 Oh, great.

Michael Pollan 28:34 ... in a couple weeks, and I'm sure it'll come up.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Dennis is the most convincing-

Michael Pollan 28:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:38 ... when he discusses it, because first of-

Michael Pollan 28:39 I haven't heard his whole rap on it, but I need to.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Um, I'll send you a video of him saying it from this podcast, 'cause he's-

Michael Pollan 28:45 Great.

Joe Rogan 28:45 Dennis is brilliant, and he also is-

Michael Pollan 28:48 I, I totally agree.

Joe Rogan 28:49 He's well-versed in the world of psychedelics. And so when he-

Michael Pollan 28:53 Yeah, and in the world of his brother. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:54 Yes, yes, in, in good and bad, right? And, you know, his brother was just such a, an important figure in the psychedelic world of just spreading the gospel 'cause he was so-

Michael Pollan 29:04 I so regret I w- I hadn't, I got into it too late-

Joe Rogan 29:07 Me too.

Michael Pollan 29:08 ... to, to meet him.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Yeah, me, me too.

Michael Pollan 29:09 Um, and I mean, to have him on this podcast would've been amazing.

Joe Rogan 29:11 Oh my God. Don't...

Michael Pollan 29:13 Yeah, lost opportunity.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Yeah. That would be the guy, yeah. If it w- and people always say, like, "Who, like, living or dead? Who's the person you wish you could've gotten on?"

Michael Pollan 29:20 Is that on, he's on the list?

Joe Rogan 29:21 I would've said Ter- Terence, yeah. Bill Hicks and Terence McKenna, those would be my two guys.

Michael Pollan 29:23 So, you know, the issue with that is that how... I understand how the impact of psychedelics finds its way into cultural evolution pretty easily.

Joe Rogan 29:33 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 29:34 But he's, he's saying it's part of genetic evolution, and that it actually changed the genome, um, as I understand it. And that people s- uh, and, and accounts for the growth of the size of the human brain. And, um, a- and, you know, the idea that people were exposed to psychedelics on the, on the Savannah, which they probably were in the form of mushrooms, and that it was a form of synesthesia, um, in that sounds got associated with ideas and meanings.

Joe Rogan 30:05 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 30:05 In the same way when you take a psychedelic, often you can see musical notes or taste them-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 30:09 ... or whatever. And so this is what gave us language. Um, I still don't get... So the people who had this tool were more likely to reproduce? How does it g- how does it actually get into the genome?

Joe Rogan 30:22 There's a bunch of things that he... I mean, obviously this is purely speculative, right? He's just trying to figure out and connect the dots. And Dennis does a better job, I think, of explaining it from a scientific perspective. But Terence's position was there was a bunch of things that were happening that coincided with climate change. So these, um, jungles, these, uh, tropical rainforests were receding into grasslands.

Michael Pollan 30:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:42 As they were receding into grasslands, the primates were climbing out of trees and experimenting with new foods, food sources. One of the things that they've recognized is that primates in the presence of ungulates will flip over their manure and look for these cow patties and look for beetles and grubs 'cause they know that there's always something that's under... Bugs-

Michael Pollan 31:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:03 ... oftentime are under there, and of course mushrooms are growing on them.

Michael Pollan 31:06 Growing on them.

Joe Rogan 31:06 So they would experiment by trying these different things to see if they're edible. In consuming psilocybin, particularly in low doses, psilocybin positively affects, uh, visual acuity.

Michael Pollan 31:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:18 So it makes you-

Michael Pollan 31:19 So they were better hunters?

Joe Rogan 31:20 Better hunters, um, more accurate in edge detection. So there's been studies where if you have two parallel lines, if the parallel line shifts slightly, the people who are on psilocybin are far more likely to be able to detect that than people that are on the natch.

Michael Pollan 31:37 Ah, fascinating.

Joe Rogan 31:38 Yeah, so that's one. Um-

Michael Pollan 31:39 There's some cultures that give psilocybin to their hunting dogs.

Joe Rogan 31:42 It makes sense.

Michael Pollan 31:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:44 It makes sense. There's, there's a, a clarity involved in, in consumption of psilocybin where it sort of eliminates, uh, anxiety. It, it, it focuses you on tasks at hand, specifically in lower doses.

Michael Pollan 31:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:58 Like, one of the things that people are doing that I... I have a lot of friends that are doing it right now, is microdosing.

Michael Pollan 32:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:03 It's very, very popular, and their perspective is that there's something about microdosing that allows them to be more present, it allows them to feel better and b- be less anxious-

Michael Pollan 32:13 Work better and feel more creative.

Joe Rogan 32:15 ... work better.

Michael Pollan 32:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:15 The other thing about psilocybin is that it, um, enhances, uh, community. So, uh, the idea that all these primates were doing it together, they were more loving, more, and, and more, um-

Michael Pollan 32:27 Connected?

Joe Rogan 32:28 ... more connected, more loyal to each other, and this might've enforced tribal behavior. So that might've been a protective, uh, issue. So they were better hunters, more tribal, and it, uh, it makes them horny.

Michael Pollan 32:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:39 So they're more likely to have sex, more likely to breed, and then with the creativity involved, the idea was the creativity might've also enhanced their hunting, might've also enhanced toolmaking, and then of course the, the language-

Michael Pollan 32:52 All kinds of innovation.

Joe Rogan 32:53 ... aspect of it, the connection of sounds to objects.

Michael Pollan 32:55 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:56 That it might've, uh, initiated that.

Michael Pollan 32:58 That is a very good restatement.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Thank you.

Michael Pollan 33:00 Excellent. That's the, better than the version in, uh, Terence's book. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:03 Well, it's over the course of two million years-

Michael Pollan 33:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:05 ... that the human brain size doubled, which is crazy. I mean, that is a, a really-

Michael Pollan 33:09 But there are other explanations.

Joe Rogan 33:10 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 33:11 I, I dealt with one of the-

Joe Rogan 33:11 I don't think there's only one.

Michael Pollan 33:12 No, and it may have been several things happening at the same time.

Joe Rogan 33:15 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 33:15 Have you heard about the cooking hypothesis?

Joe Rogan 33:16 Yes, I have. Yeah.

Michael Pollan 33:17 Yeah. So Richard Wrangham, uh, a Harvard primatologist, and his, his argument is that is when we learned to cook, which essentially, uh, meant we had to spend less metabolic capital digesting food, chewing especially.

Joe Rogan 33:32 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 33:32 You know, chimps spend like six hours a day chewing, um, because they're eating all this uncooked plant material.

Joe Rogan 33:39 Mm.

Michael Pollan 33:39 And when we moved to cooked meat in particular, but cooked food of all kinds, uh, we didn't need as big a gut, and we could afford to run a bigger brain.

Joe Rogan 33:48 Mm.

Michael Pollan 33:48 And, uh, and I find that theory... And, and there's some evidence for that. I mean, like if you feed snakes, you know, some uncooked food, some un- uncooked food, they grow much faster on the cooked food.

Joe Rogan 33:58 Mm.

Michael Pollan 33:59 Um, one of the reasons our dogs are so fat these days is we're giving them cooked food when they're not evolved for it, um, because most of the stuff in cans has been cooked. Um, so anyway, it's, you know, there's a lot of speculation in this whole area, but it's fascinating.

Joe Rogan 34:14 It is fascinating. And w- there is a long history of human use of psychedelics.

Michael Pollan 34:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:19 And it kinda makes sense that if you probably keep going, you're gonna deal with ancient man-

Michael Pollan 34:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:25 ... using it somewhere along the lines as well.

Michael Pollan 34:26 Yeah, there's no historical record, but-

Joe Rogan 34:27 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 34:28 ... there's no reason to think people just figured it out 6,000 years ago. People ate everything.

Joe Rogan 34:31 Right.

Michael Pollan 34:31 They had to.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Except things that are connected to psychedelics, and this is where it gets really weird, when you get cultures that are really, uh, they don't have a lot of food, but yet they worship cows.

Michael Pollan 34:41 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:42 You know, and why did they, why would they worship cows? Well, the speculation is that cows-

Michael Pollan 34:46 Is the cow patties.

Joe Rogan 34:47 ... the manure... Yeah, and then psilocybin grows in the manure.

Michael Pollan 34:49 Yeah, there's several cultures where cows are divine.

Joe Rogan 34:51 My friend, Duncan, he grew up in Asheville, North Carolina, and, uh, they used to put some kind of, uh, something in the feed of cows to try to get cows to stop producing psychedelic mushrooms, 'cause there were so many psychedelic mushrooms-

Michael Pollan 35:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:04 ... and these college kids were running out onto the fields just picking them and tripping balls all the time.

Michael Pollan 35:09 Did it work?

Joe Rogan 35:10 I don't know if it worked, but it's a terrible tragedy, even the fact that-

Michael Pollan 35:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:12 ... they did it. Like, what are you doing? Like, y- yeah, it just... Some antifungal or something, I don't know what they're doing, but it, uh, you know, he said that they would all go out to the fields and find cow shit, and it was apparently just insanely common.

Michael Pollan 35:27 Yeah. It is in the Pacific Northwest. I have a, a, a brother-in-law who grew up in Vancouver and he said, yeah, they were out there all the time finding them. And, um, uh, but I've, you know, I spent a lot of time hiking in Northern California, and I go through a lot of cattle land. I've never found one.

Joe Rogan 35:43 Really?

Michael Pollan 35:43 I- It may have to be moist, very moist conditions.

Joe Rogan 35:45 Hm. Yeah, well-

Michael Pollan 35:46 Our cow patties get kinda desiccated.

Joe Rogan 35:48 Mushrooms are interesting, right? They have like different kinda specific conditions that they w- Like, uh, morel mushrooms are-

Michael Pollan 35:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:54 ... really, really delicious, and apparently, they favor places where it's been burned.

Michael Pollan 35:58 Burned, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:59 Oh.

Michael Pollan 35:59 I went hunting for them-

Joe Rogan 36:00 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 36:00 ... a couple years ago for my last book, and, um, after fires, big forest fires, um, y- you can reliably go out there in the spring just as the snow is melting. They pop up in huge quantities. I c- We, we found... You know, we were like, "10, 20, 30 pounds of morels," and you know you don't-

Joe Rogan 36:19 Wow.

Michael Pollan 36:19 ... that's a lot of morels.

Joe Rogan 36:20 That's crazy.

Michael Pollan 36:21 It was always on fire lands. And the reason, the theory is that, you know, these fungi, first of all, most of them, you know, live underground, right? I mean, the, the, the part we see is just the fruiting body. It's like the apple on the tree. Everything else is underground. That they're happily doing their thing, and then suddenly there's a crisis and they've lost their hosts. Their hosts are dead. So they have to get out of the forest. So they put up these fruiting bodies and hope that their spores will move them to a place that hasn't burned.

Joe Rogan 36:49 Oh, that's what it is.

Michael Pollan 36:50 So they're... Yeah, it's their escape strategy.

Joe Rogan 36:53 Wow.

Michael Pollan 36:53 And we're helping them by picking it and moving them around.

Joe Rogan 36:56 Oh, wow. That's fascinating. Did you dehydrate them and save them?

Michael Pollan 36:59 Yeah, we dried as ma- Um, we ate a lot of them. Um-

Joe Rogan 37:02 They're so good.

Michael Pollan 37:02 ... I was hunting with a guy who hunts for restaurants in Northern California, so he sold most of them and I took a couple pounds home. Um, but I didn't, I didn't dehydrate. I've done that with porcini when I found too many porcini, um, but I, I didn't do it with morels. I just ate them really quickly.

Joe Rogan 37:16 The only way I've ever gotten them is buy them from, uh, distributors online that sell them dried out.

Michael Pollan 37:21 Dried, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:21 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 37:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:22 They're so good though.

Michael Pollan 37:22 They're fantastic, but fresh is... They're amazing. And I haven't had too many occasions, so... But, you know, we had a lot of fires last year in California, so there'll be a lot of morels.

Joe Rogan 37:32 Mm.

Michael Pollan 37:33 That's the one good thing you can say. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:35 Yeah. D- Is there like... Is there a place where the Amanita muscaria reliably grows where it is... Does, does have a psychedelic property to it? Because that's one of those really debatable-

Michael Pollan 37:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:51 ... psyl- Well, uh, d- really debatable mushrooms, really debatable fungi, because it's... Some people don't put any faith in the idea that it was involved in Christianity or in-

Michael Pollan 38:03 Yeah, or Santa Claus.

Joe Rogan 38:04 Or any of that stuff.

Michael Pollan 38:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:05 And some people put all their money on that.

Michael Pollan 38:08 I know. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:08 Th- They put it all on red.

Michael Pollan 38:09 And there's... You know, there is a way to process it. Even drying it apparently gets rid of the toxins. But there's a specific way that they think it was processed that made it a usable hallucinogen. Paul Stamets knows a lot more about this than I do.

Joe Rogan 38:25 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 38:26 Um, and he's had an experience with it that he said he would never repeat. Um, that was-

Joe Rogan 38:30 He would never repeat it?

Michael Pollan 38:31 Yeah. It was such a bad experience. Um-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Oh. Uh, not repeat like verbally.

Michael Pollan 38:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:36 But do it again.

Michael Pollan 38:36 No, no, no, no, no. It's not a secret. Well, I don't think it's a secret.

Joe Rogan 38:38 So he had a bad experience with it-

Michael Pollan 38:39 Yeah, he did.

Joe Rogan 38:40 ... the toxic...

Michael Pollan 38:41 Um, that it was very toxic, and he had a really excruciating day. It was-

Joe Rogan 38:45 Hm.

Michael Pollan 38:45 It was psychedelic, but had a lot of other, uh, gastrointestinal... I'm not sure-

Joe Rogan 38:50 Hm.

Michael Pollan 38:50 ... exactly what it was. I remember when I was interviewing him for the last book, he, he talked about it, uh, 'cause I've always been curious about it. This is, this is, you know, the, the, the mushroom of the old world in particular that is associated with lots of shamanic rituals and the imagery-... you know, from, you know, Lewis Carroll to the Santa Claus idea. It just keeps showing up-

Joe Rogan 39:10 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 39:11 ... that you would think it had some use or, or, or religious, you know, value. Um, but, eh, I, I don't ... Maybe, maybe the, the method of ... Maybe like ergot, the method of processing has just been lost to history.

Joe Rogan 39:26 Yeah. Meckent believed that it was different, that it varied genetically, and it also varied seasonably.

Michael Pollan 39:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:33 And that it po- possibly varied dependent upon the environment or just-

Michael Pollan 39:37 Or the substrate, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:38 ... you know.

Michael Pollan 39:38 Well, that, that's possible. I mean, mushrooms produce different metabolites depending on what they're growing on to some extent. Um-

Joe Rogan 39:45 The, the other thing that, um, I wanted to say was like, i- in some cultures, in the absence of psychedelics, they would do something called ordeal poisoning.

Michael Pollan 39:54 What is that? I don't know what that is. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:55 You know, you know what that is? It's like you would almost go through a near death experience that you could get out of, like it was reliable-

Michael Pollan 40:03 Through suffocation or ...

Joe Rogan 40:04 No. Through this poison, through some sort of plant toxin or some ... See if you can google "or- ordeal poisoning." Trial by ordeal, they call it.

Michael Pollan 40:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:12 So what they would do is in the absence of psychedelics, they'd put themselves through this ritual, uh, meaning that on the other end of it there would be some kind of life-changing revelation just sort of like-

Michael Pollan 40:23 A near death experience.

Joe Rogan 40:24 ... just like a real n- near death experience.

Michael Pollan 40:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:26 But that this was re- reliably repeatable because this poison didn't kill you, but it fucked you up so bad you thought you were gonna die. And in the middle of these sweats and these ... Like, like Stamets was talking about with, uh, Amanita muscaria. (coughs) Some cultures such as the ... Oh boy, you wanna try that one?

Michael Pollan 40:43 E- E- Efik Ub-

Joe Rogan 40:45 Efik Ub-

Michael Pollan 40:45 ... Urutu (laughs) people of present-day Nigeria.

Joe Rogan 40:47 Uh, present-day Nigeria would administer poisonous Calabar bean, uh, known, uh, as asari in Efik which contains physostigmine.

Michael Pollan 41:00 Stigmine.

Joe Rogan 41:00 Physostigmine? Uh, in an attempt to detect guilt.

Michael Pollan 41:04 Oh.

Joe Rogan 41:04 A defendant who vomited up the bean was innocent. A defendant who became ill or died was considered guilty. Residents of Mad- Madagascar could ac- ... Well, I don't think this is the same.

Michael Pollan 41:14 This isn't it exactly.

Joe Rogan 41:14 This is it. Did you google "ordeal poisoning"?

Michael Pollan 41:16 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 41:17 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 41:17 Huh.

Joe Rogan 41:18 Ordeal poisoning rituals.

Michael Pollan 41:21 Uh, really modern-day?

Joe Rogan 41:21 Th- these are all ... This seems to be-

Michael Pollan 41:23 Really modern-day? This is a, this is a whole Wikipedia on trial by ordeal and this is the part about poisoning. So this is a different kind of trial. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:28 Um ... I think it's a criminal trial by ordeal.

Michael Pollan 41:31 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:32 Um, d- ... Or- ordeal poisoning f- uh, as, uh ... I don't know. W- how would you google that? As a psychedelic ritual?

Michael Pollan 41:41 Well-

Joe Rogan 41:41 But it wouldn't be psychedelic.

Michael Pollan 41:43 There is-

Joe Rogan 41:43 Poison-induced near death experience.

Michael Pollan 41:45 ... there's ... Google image search brings up a lot of stuff. I just sort of found-

Joe Rogan 41:47 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 41:47 ... out on this 'cause it looked like it was official Wikipedia, but-

Joe Rogan 41:50 I think they used to do things like that to try to figure out whether or not someone was hiding things, like whether or not they had, uh, kno- knowledge of a crime or whether they were guilty. But I think they also did it as rites of passage, you know, for certain cultures that didn't have access to psychedelics-

Michael Pollan 42:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:08 ... but they recognized that there, it was important to have some sort of a moment-

Michael Pollan 42:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:13 ... some sort of a def-

Michael Pollan 42:14 A liminal experience, right?

Joe Rogan 42:15 Yeah, a definable moment where you got-

Michael Pollan 42:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:17 ... through it and you go, "Congratulations, Michael. You're, you know-"

Michael Pollan 42:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:20 "... you passed through the gate."

Michael Pollan 42:20 Well, the, you know ... Look, I mean for a lot of people that is, uh, the psychedelic experience becomes a, a sort of rehearsal for death, right?

Joe Rogan 42:28 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 42:28 I mean, they, they feel like they're dying or they're s- ... You know, I had an experience and my ego completely detonating and it was gone. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a death you come back from.

Joe Rogan 42:39 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 42:39 And there's something that t- ... Uh, something. It teaches you a lot of things and, um ... So it's interesting, you know, people have put their bodies in these extreme places w- whether it's with chemicals, fasting too, you know, the people who go ... Or, or isolation, right? People who go out on vision quests, right? And they go five days without food.

Joe Rogan 43:01 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 43:01 They enter an altered state of consciousness and that-

Joe Rogan 43:04 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 43:04 ... and that becomes part of the rite, um-

Joe Rogan 43:06 Even just staying awake.

Michael Pollan 43:08 Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's part of human nature and I think it's a really interesting part of human nature th- the desire for these transcendent experiences that we don't talk about enough or acknowledge and, or teach our children about. I mean, that they're gonna have these desires and, um, uh, and that there's safe ways to obtain them and unsafe ways to obtain them. And, um, uh ... But I really do think that, you know, the kind of cultural container you build around them is, is, is the best assurance of, of safety.

Joe Rogan 43:37 It's one of the problems that we have in this culture is that we've suppressed this information for so long and lied-

Michael Pollan 43:42 Because of the drug war.

Joe Rogan 43:43 Yeah, and lied about the effects of it while we were supporting drugs that did irreparable harm.

Michael Pollan 43:48 That caused so much damage. Yeah. I, I agree. I think that's there's so much misinformation that came out of the drug war. Um, it's still coming out of the drug war. I mean, th- on the nature of addiction, for example, that it's all about chemicals. Um, it's not all about chemicals. There are many people who can use an addictive drug without getting addicted. When, um, you know, when we were in Vietnam, 20% of the soldiers had a heroin addiction, uh, in country while they were there.

Joe Rogan 44:14 20%?

Michael Pollan 44:15 20%, okay? They were all using heroin, or a lot of them were, and then 20% were addicted. When they got home, 95% just stopped using. No treatment, um, just stopped, um, 'cause the environment had changed. They didn't need it. They weren't, they didn't need to medicate themselves anymore. The withdrawal from opiate addiction is not as it's depicted in the drug war. It's, it's a bad flu. Um, it's ... Actually withdrawal from alcohol is a lot worse. Withdrawal from alcohol can kill you.

Joe Rogan 44:43 And benzos, right?

Michael Pollan 44:44 Yeah. Oh yeah, that's a really dangerous one too. Um, but addiction is, is, you know, is ... I mean look at the, look at the geography of the opiate adic- uh, opioid crisis, right? I mean, these are places where the opportunities have dried up, you know, there are no jobs, people's prospects are, are terrible. And they're, you know, they're rightly called deaths of despair. And, um-... whereas people in other environments can use opiates without a problem. Um, and we don't pay enough attention to that. Um, uh, that, you know, that there's, it's contextual whether people get addicted or not. Or it's a, it's a function of their history that they're, they're people, very, most addicts, uh, according to a lot of research, were tr- had trauma in their lives at some point, and they're dealing with that. Um-

Joe Rogan 45:26 Have you talked to Dr. Carl Hart?

Michael Pollan 45:29 Yes, I have. Well, I've exchanged email with him, and I just read his book. Um, yeah, Drug Use for Grown-Ups. It's a really interesting and courageous book.

Joe Rogan 45:36 He's a fascinating person.

Michael Pollan 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:38 And brilliant. And because of his brilliance and because of the fact that he's a professor at Columbia, but yet has the courage to talk about regular use of drugs-

Michael Pollan 45:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:49 ... and that-

Michael Pollan 45:49 Hard drugs, so called.

Joe Rogan 45:51 He loves heroin.

Michael Pollan 45:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:53 He sniffs heroin. He said it makes him closer to his wife. It makes him a kinder person.

Michael Pollan 45:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:58 And it's so easy to dismiss coming from someone, you know, who maybe is not an academic and someone who's not, uh, j- just so articulate. And when it comes from a guy like him, you gotta go, "W- wait."

Michael Pollan 46:10 Yeah. I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 46:11 "You do fucking heroin?" Like-

Michael Pollan 46:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:13 ... heroin's bad for you.

Michael Pollan 46:13 Well, I mean, we've learned that-

Joe Rogan 46:14 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 46:15 ... heroin is just the most evil chemical going.

Joe Rogan 46:17 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 46:17 And-

Joe Rogan 46:17 He loves coke. He-

Michael Pollan 46:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:18 He loves cocaine, like real, pure cocaine.

Michael Pollan 46:19 Yeah. He's had nice things to say about meth. He said it's very similar to MDMA.

Joe Rogan 46:23 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 46:24 I know. It's a pretty wild book to read. Um-

Joe Rogan 46:26 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 46:26 ... and, uh, it, it-

Joe Rogan 46:28 You should talk to him 'cause he's a-

Michael Pollan 46:29 I should.

Joe Rogan 46:30 ... fascinating guy just talking.

Michael Pollan 46:31 Yeah, I should interview him.

Joe Rogan 46:31 'Cause he's so open.

Michael Pollan 46:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:33 He's so open with it all and, and, and a genuinely good person.

Michael Pollan 46:38 And he's trying to open this same conversation, right?

Joe Rogan 46:41 Yes. Yes.

Michael Pollan 46:41 Um, like how... These substances are gonna become decriminalized. How do we fold them into our culture? What are our models?

Joe Rogan 46:48 Yes.

Michael Pollan 46:48 And, you know, a lot of people think cannabis is the model, and I really don't think that's true. Um, uh, you know that... And a lot of people in the cannabis business who say psilocybin is the next cannabis and they, they imagine it being, you know, sold next to the THC gummy bears, you know, in these dispensaries. And I, I just think psychedelics are a much more consequential, serious experience that has to be handled with more care and needs... Every drug... I mean, one of the problems with the drug war is it put all illicit drugs in the same basket, right? And they're not. They're so different. Psychedelics are different than, than the opiates, and the opiates are different than cannabis. And we have to... We would never lump anything else together the way we've lumped these drugs. And so we're gonna have to look at each of them on their own terms. And, um, a- and that process, you know, is... I think it's beginning. And I think Carl's book is part of that.

Joe Rogan 47:41 I think culturally we're gonna deal with an issue if we combine psilocybin and cannabis the, the way... 'Cause cannabis can be used so easily and lightly and recreationally. You could smoke a joint and go see a movie with your friends and laugh and giggle.

Michael Pollan 47:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:55 Um, mushrooms can be used that way if you microdose.

Michael Pollan 47:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:59 Microdosing is-

Michael Pollan 48:00 And I don't... Microdosing, you know, I, I wouldn't have an issue with. Um-

Joe Rogan 48:03 But tripping balls, like full on-

Michael Pollan 48:05 Macro dosing.

Joe Rogan 48:05 ... eat a bag.

Michael Pollan 48:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:08 Go to another dimension. That is, that's a life-changing experience. And I just, I, I, I... When I go to a pot store in LA and I, you know, see the Purple Haze right next to the-

Michael Pollan 48:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:20 ... AK-47 or Alaskan Thunderfuck, I'm like, I just... It seems weird to have mushrooms right there too.

Michael Pollan 48:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:27 It's like, do you know what you're selling these people?

Michael Pollan 48:28 Yeah. I know.

Joe Rogan 48:29 You're literally selling the gateway to God.

Michael Pollan 48:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:31 Like, we should be a little more careful with this, or at least treat it with respect.

Michael Pollan 48:34 Yeah, and, and approach it with a little more reverence.

Joe Rogan 48:35 Yes, yes. That's what I would like.

Michael Pollan 48:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:37 What I would like is... And the problem with this is of course the cult of personality. I would love like psychedelic centers, if there was some place where people could go to have these experiences. But what I worry is that the person who is giving out these psychedelics and the person who is, uh, you know, maybe setting the set and setting for the pe- becomes a guru or becomes, it becomes cult-like.

Michael Pollan 49:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:02 Because there's a potential there, especially for the, the uninitiated who's meeting the initiated.

Michael Pollan 49:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:07 And they all have, you know, this kind of way of talking that seems a little contrived and they're wearing wooden beads.

Michael Pollan 49:13 And they have the answer and they know the key to the universe.

Joe Rogan 49:16 Fuck, man. That's a problem.

Michael Pollan 49:16 There's a weird experience, there's a weird phenomenon with psychedelics. You know, we talk a lot about ego dissolution on psychedelics, but there's also ego inflation.

Joe Rogan 49:24 Yes.

Michael Pollan 49:24 And that happens. And, um, you know, we've seen that in the culture and that people who are so, uh, you know, have had a revelation about psychedelics and they wanna share it with the world and they become gurus and, um, and that's a, that's a phenomenon to watch out for. I, I agree. I think someday we will move to... I'm very interested in this process of how psychedelics move into the society. And, and I see three paths basically. There's the medical path, which is, you know, we're pretty far down that path. The FDA will probably, um, approve MDMA within, what, what does Rick Doblin say? Two years or something like that?

Joe Rogan 49:59 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 49:59 Yeah. Maybe three for psilocybin or four. So it's not far away at all.

Joe Rogan 50:04 And ketamine is currently in use pretty widely right now for therapy.

Michael Pollan 50:07 And that is, for many people, that is suggesting a model. So there's, you know, Field Trip Health, you know, this company that's building ketamine clinics all around the country, very lavish spa-like places where you can get a ketamine experience, um, uh, you know, with a nurse or a doctor present. Uh, they're very expensive. Um, and they're doing this basically to work out the kinks so that they can move to psilocybin and MDMA when it's ready. So that'll be one kind of elite way that people will have the experience 'cause it'll cost thousands of dollars. Um, and then there'll be the medical model. Um, and it'll, that'll probably be more clinic based. Um, nobody's figured out exactly, but, um... And then there'll be the religious model, and I think that's a really interesting one to watch. In the same way the Native American Church and two ayahuasca churches have the constitutional right to use a psychedelic as their sacrament, there are a lot of other new churches forming now. Um, and given the Supreme Court and its expansive, um-... you know, interpretations of religious liberty. Um, basically they're cutting huge amounts of slack that, uh, e- for reasons of religious conscience, you can be exempted from all sorts of federal regulations and laws. I mean, Hobby Lobby and the decision just the other day, um, that when the, some of these psychedelic churches find their way up to the Supreme Court, this Supreme Court's gonna have a hard time saying no. Um-

Joe Rogan 51:40 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 51:41 ... and there are, uh, there is a group of psychedelic lawyers who are looking for the right cases to bring through the system. And-

Joe Rogan 51:49 Boy, does that sound like an oxymoron.

Michael Pollan 51:50 (laughs) Yeah, psychedelic lawyers. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:54 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 51:54 It really is. They call themselves that. I'm not calling them that.

Joe Rogan 51:55 That's great. I love it.

Michael Pollan 51:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:57 I'm glad they're out there, but I'm just-

Michael Pollan 51:58 They're, they're based in Boulder, as you would guess.

Joe Rogan 52:00 I mean, it's the ultimate jumbo shrimp.

Michael Pollan 52:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:02 You know? Of course, they're based in Boulder. (laughs)

Michael Pollan 52:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:06 I fucking love Boulder.

Michael Pollan 52:07 It's too good. It's too good.

Joe Rogan 52:09 Oh, that's amazing.

Michael Pollan 52:09 But it's gonna be like an exploding cigar for, you know, Justice Alito when one of these cases come up-

Joe Rogan 52:14 Hmm, yeah.

Michael Pollan 52:14 ... 'cause they're gonna have trouble saying no-

Joe Rogan 52:16 Right.

Michael Pollan 52:16 ... 'cause the precedents are be- are being established. So I think we'll have this religious path, we'll have this retreat center path, and we'll have this medical path. And the most accessible may be the medical path since it'll get... presumably, if it really works, get covered by insurance.

Joe Rogan 52:31 Yeah, especially for people that have PTSD or-

Michael Pollan 52:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:34 ... soldiers, police officers, things along those lines. P-

Michael Pollan 52:36 Women who've been abused.

Joe Rogan 52:37 People who've been abused.

Michael Pollan 52:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:38 Yes. Um, are you aware what Alex Grey is doing?

Michael Pollan 52:41 Not right now, no.

Joe Rogan 52:42 Do you know who Alex Grey is?

Michael Pollan 52:42 Yeah, sure. The, the artist.

Joe Rogan 52:43 The artist?

Michael Pollan 52:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:44 He has formed a church. He has religious tax-exempt status, and he's building this insane spectacular chapel in Upstate New York. He bought a bunch of land, and, uh, he was in some sort of a dispute with the town, but I think they've settled that-

Michael Pollan 53:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:02 ... because he's not paying any taxes 'cause he's a church.

Michael Pollan 53:04 He's a church. (laughs) I'm sure they're pleased about that.

Joe Rogan 53:05 Uh, but I mean, if anybo- if anybody can do that, it's Alex Grey.

Michael Pollan 53:08 Yeah, he'll get the iconography down and-

Joe Rogan 53:10 Oh my God.

Michael Pollan 53:11 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:11 You gotta see what the place looks like.

Michael Pollan 53:12 Have you been there?

Joe Rogan 53:13 No, I have not-

Michael Pollan 53:14 I gotta check it out.

Joe Rogan 53:14 ... but I must. I must go. It's-

Michael Pollan 53:16 Well, I spend part of the year in that part of the world, so-

Joe Rogan 53:18 Oh.

Michael Pollan 53:18 ... I will check it out.

Joe Rogan 53:19 I've had Alex on a couple of times, and he's a, a genuine gem of a human being, and just a-

Michael Pollan 53:24 I've never met him. I've never met him.

Joe Rogan 53:25 Oh, he's, he's the real deal, man.

Michael Pollan 53:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:27 He's, like, when you're around him, like, he... first of all, he's so kind. And as an artist, he's phenomenal. He's so brilliant as an artist, but he l- that's him. He's walking the walk. I mean, he's just so present.

Michael Pollan 53:41 So, i- and so is LSD a sacrament in this, in this church?

Joe Rogan 53:44 You'd have to ask him.

Michael Pollan 53:45 Okay.

Joe Rogan 53:45 I wouldn't wanna speak, but-

Michael Pollan 53:46 We don't wanna get him in trouble.

Joe Rogan 53:47 ... I think he's a big fan of the tryptamines in particular-

Michael Pollan 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:49 ... but LSD as well.

Michael Pollan 53:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:51 But the, the artwork is... so the iconography, the, the imagery that he portrays is the best, uh, the best interpretation of, uh, tryptamine experiences that I've ever seen.

Michael Pollan 54:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:02 Because he's, he's figured out how to express the visions as a c- like a... in, in normal consciousness, like, you try to repeat what you saw-

Michael Pollan 54:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:13 ... and you try to express it with words. Words are the most crude and clumsy tools to express psychedelics, but there's something about, like... pull up some of... like the one where, um, there's this weird gold and... I think it's gold and blue one that I swear I saw something entirely similar to that when, uh, I was, uh, under an experience and was like-

Michael Pollan 54:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:37 ... "Oh, he went..." I'm, I wonder if there's, like, little rooms you go into or, or, or little places you go into based on d-

Michael Pollan 54:44 Is this one of them?

Joe Rogan 54:47 Um, none of those, but all of those are great.

Michael Pollan 54:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:50 They're all great. There's a Albert Hofmann one there.

Michael Pollan 54:53 He's got a great one- version of the Stone Age there at the end.

Joe Rogan 54:55 That one in the upper left-hand corner is super similar to some stuff I've seen before. Super similar. Like, as they expand and move, and those things are all constantly moving-

Michael Pollan 55:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:06 ... and shifting. That's what it looks like. He just... so his place is called, uh... I think the place in New York City was called the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, and I think he's... I think that's what he's calling... it's, it's call- calling it Cosm, right? Is that... what is, uh, the place in Upsta- show, um, my co-

Michael Pollan 55:22 Are there pictures of the, uh-

Joe Rogan 55:22 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 55:23 ... of the building?

Joe Rogan 55:24 It's crazy, 'cause it's basically his art 3D-printed as the out- of- outside of the building.

Michael Pollan 55:31 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 55:31 So like, if you would go to, like, an ancient Egyptian temple-

Michael Pollan 55:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:34 ... their temple would be covered in all this incredible artwork or sculpture. He's s- doing a similar thing, but with his vision interpreted into 3D sculpture. So it's wild-

Michael Pollan 55:46 Is he paying for this himself?

Joe Rogan 55:47 ... wild shit. I don't know how he's doing it. I mean, I think people are donating. I think there's a lot going on, you know? I think, uh, he's... but-

Michael Pollan 55:55 I have to make a field trip.

Joe Rogan 55:56 He's so, just so genuine.

Michael Pollan 55:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:58 I mean, outta all the people, like, if everybody who is, uh, a proponent of psychedelics was that guy... like this is... okay, this is the, the image of what it's going to look like.

Michael Pollan 56:06 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 56:06 So see, it looks on the outside very similar to his artwork.

Michael Pollan 56:11 Yeah, it does.

Joe Rogan 56:12 But it also has, like, these feelings of Egypt in it, and like, I don't know, I'm just-

Michael Pollan 56:17 It's very Egyptian.

Joe Rogan 56:18 Yeah, and like, this f- alien language he's got scrolled across it.

Michael Pollan 56:22 Oh, yeah. The interior.

Joe Rogan 56:22 It probably... that probably means something, too. I mean, I don't even know what it means. That's, um... that interior down there is not the interior, I don't think, of the actual place.

Narrator 56:32 I- I can't find pictures of it. I don't... they might still be making it.

Joe Rogan 56:35 Yeah.

Narrator 56:35 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 56:37 He's amazing, though, and what, what he does is... oh, there it is. It's called Entheon. That's what it is.

Michael Pollan 56:42 Entheon.

Joe Rogan 56:43 Right. Yeah, hit that video. Let's see what it-

Narrator 56:45 Let's do it from my computer.

Joe Rogan 56:45 ... what it looks like.

Narrator 56:46 Sorry, I don't... it's not built yet.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Y- okay, so, well, they're in the middle of building it, though. I do know that some work has been done, but they've b- he'd been-

Narrator 56:58 Gotta take the country there.

Michael Pollan 56:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:59 Last time he was on was how many years ago, Jamie? Three?

Narrator 57:01 Um, yeah sure. If they've done-

Joe Rogan 57:03 Somewhere around there?

Narrator 57:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:04 So, so, yeah, okay. So he is in the middle of this.

Michael Pollan 57:07 So they're building it.

Joe Rogan 57:08 Yeah. I mean, sh- this has got to be crazy expensive.

Michael Pollan 57:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:11 It's probably taking a long-ass time, but it's gonna be a lot of galleries, a lot of-

Michael Pollan 57:16 And think of the craftsmen you need-

Joe Rogan 57:17 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 57:17 ... to do what we saw on the exterior.

Joe Rogan 57:18 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and again, it's... most of it is being done, I think.

Michael Pollan 57:22 Secret writing.

Joe Rogan 57:22 Yeah.... the 3D printing, but-

Michael Pollan 57:25 Well.

Joe Rogan 57:25 ... I'm just glad he's out there.

Michael Pollan 57:26 Well, you know, this is kind of one of the benefits of psychedelics coming out of the closet after all these years, right?

Joe Rogan 57:32 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 57:32 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 57:32 I mean, that people can use them in their art. They can use them in their architecture. Have you ever heard of a house called Acido Dorado in Joshua Tree?

Joe Rogan 57:39 No.

Michael Pollan 57:39 There's an LSD-inspired house. You can rent it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:43 Really? Is it on Airbnb?

Michael Pollan 57:44 I, I stayed there. (laughs)

Narrator 57:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:46 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 57:46 I don't know if it's on Airbnb, but you can rent it. And, um, we were shooting, uh, for a documentary there. It is so trippy. It's, it's gold and mirrors. Every surface is mirrored, so you don't know what's up and down. It would actually be kind of a scary... Yeah, there it is. Thank you. Acido Dorado. Anyway, it's on the edge of the desert in Joshua Tree, and I, I actually can't recommend it as a place to stay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:11 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 58:11 It was too disorienting. Um...

Joe Rogan 58:13 Why was it disorienting? The mirrors?

Michael Pollan 58:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:16 The mirrors and everything?

Michael Pollan 58:16 'Cause you'd look down at the floor and you'd see a reflection of the dining room table f- in six dimensions and...

Joe Rogan 58:23 It sounds perfect.

Michael Pollan 58:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:25 I love all the cactus around it too. That's awesome.

Michael Pollan 58:27 Anyway, it's, it's pretty cool and the way it fits into the landscape.

Joe Rogan 58:31 Wow.

Michael Pollan 58:31 Yeah, that's a good job.

Joe Rogan 58:31 That place is so strange. Joshua Tree-

Michael Pollan 58:33 Joshua Tree is-

Joe Rogan 58:34 ... is so bizarre.

Michael Pollan 58:34 ... it's one of the tripier landscapes. And in fact, people go there to trip all the time.

Joe Rogan 58:38 Oh, yeah. All my friends do.

Michael Pollan 58:39 Yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 58:39 My friend, Ari-

Michael Pollan 58:40 ... the place, right?

Joe Rogan 58:40 My friend, Ari Shaffir, runs, uh, a festival-

Michael Pollan 58:43 Thank you, Jimmy.

Joe Rogan 58:44 ... every year. Like an, an informal festival called Shroom Fest. And, uh-

Michael Pollan 58:48 In Joshua Tree?

Joe Rogan 58:49 Well, he does it, they do it a lot of times out at Joshua Tree, but he encourages people to do it everywhere they are. You don't have to go to a place. But is that in August? Is that when Ari's, uh...

Narrator 58:57 I believe so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:58 What a terrible time (laughs) to go to Joshua Tree.

Narrator 59:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:00 It's awfully hot.

Narrator 59:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:01 I don't know if they're going to Joshua Tree. Ari's living in New York City now, so I don't think he's doing it out there. But a lot of the, uh, trips that they've done, they have done out there.

Michael Pollan 59:11 But I think-

Joe Rogan 59:12 Joshua Tree.

Michael Pollan 59:12 ... we're gonna see now, you know, an explosion of writing, of art, of... It's just like people are coming out of the closet.

Joe Rogan 59:18 Yes.

Michael Pollan 59:18 Talking about their experiences in a way that you just couldn't do a few years ago, or you-

Joe Rogan 59:23 Right.

Michael Pollan 59:23 ... or you did it at great risk to your reputation. And-

Joe Rogan 59:26 And it's gonna affect art. It's gonna affect culture.

Michael Pollan 59:29 It's gonna affect everything, um-

Joe Rogan 59:29 Yeah. And I think in a good way. I think one of the benefits of the clo- cross your fingers, of, uh, these psychedelics is the enhancement of the feeling of love and community.

Michael Pollan 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Which is what everybody needs right now.

Michael Pollan 59:42 Yeah. So, I think that's a really interesting theme. And my gut says yes, I mean, that, that the nature of the psychedelic experience could make people better people, make them feel more connected, more compassionate. But I don't think we can say that with confidence yet. I think we actually have to do science about that to figure out. I mean, there's some preliminary research, for example, that was done at Imperial College in London that shows that people's nature connectedness goes up. Their scores of how connected you feel to the natural world, and tolerance for authoritarianism goes down, openness of personality goes up. So, these are preliminary, but if you think about who has participated in these studies, they tend to be inclined in that direction already.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:00:29 You really have to get like the Koch brothers or Trump-

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 1:00:33 ... or somebody who's not inclined to like nature especially-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 I'm glad you said that.

Michael Pollan 1:00:38 ... and, and do it to them and see-

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:00:40 ... if it changes their attitudes, 'cause I think we may be having people on the same side of the culture e- having reinforcing experiences. But I don't know, and it's something I would love to see research done on.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 That would be a great thing to do as a therapy for someone who has d-... Like maybe you, you've been a, a sexual harasser at work-

Michael Pollan 1:01:00 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 ... and they make you go to some place and have a psychedelic experience to realize the error of your ways.

Michael Pollan 1:01:07 It'd be much gentler than the chemical castration they used to talk about. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Well, w- we don't have to go that far. But I mean, you know, just w- well i- i- maybe that's even a bad example. But so- maybe someone who's been accused of fraud or maybe-

Michael Pollan 1:01:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 ... someone who's embezzling money or maybe someone who's done something l- really unethical and you can pull-

Michael Pollan 1:01:24 Or-

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 ... them aside and say, "Listen, this is-"

Michael Pollan 1:01:25 Here's the choice.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 "... harming you."

Michael Pollan 1:01:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 "And you don't even realize it's harming you. You think you're getting away with these things, and, and having these psychedelic experiences maybe..." 'Cause that's one of the more confusing but illuminating things that you do learn from psychedelics is that things that you've done to other people have also harmed you-

Michael Pollan 1:01:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 ... and, and you don't think about it until you're forced into reflection.

Michael Pollan 1:01:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 And one of the things is ab- about psychedelics is the ruthlessly introspective nature of some of the journeys that you go on, where y- you really are forced to look at yourself and your actions and, and r- and come to, come to Jesus with it.

Michael Pollan 1:02:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 You, you really have to 'cause th- there's n- they doesn't, they don't allow you any other... And people call it bad trips, you know, when you try to fight it, but-

Michael Pollan 1:02:14 No, it's not the right term. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:02:15 So, i- that was a very interesting theme that came up with interviewing Native Americans. They, they would talk about psychedelics as if the peyote had a gaze and it saw right into them.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:02:26 And they also used the metaphor of a mirror, that in the same way... Uh, this one Native American had this beautiful image. He said, "In the same way, you know, you step up to the mirror to make sure you don't have spinach in your teeth or something like that and you check and make sure you're ready to go out into society, the peyote allows us to see ourselves and see what's wrong and correct it."

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:02:47 And I thought that was a very powerful idea, and, and that the idea that peyote had a gaze. And they teach their children this, that the peyote can see into you, um, and they're socialized in this belief. Um, and that it's, it's sort of like a super ego, right? It becomes a conscience. Um, and that's a, that's also a very powerful idea.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Just fascinating that it was so late in their history and at a very-

Michael Pollan 1:03:11 In the nick of time, really.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 ... incredibly desperate time for their culture, which is, you know, eradicated by these intruding Europeans. Um-

Michael Pollan 1:03:20 Which is why... And just one point on that too. I, I, I would hate if my discussion of peyote and Native Americans started a fad for using peyote.... there's just not enough peyote. And, uh-

Narrator 1:03:31 Really?

Michael Pollan 1:03:32 Yeah. No, there, it's in- it's in very short supply. The peyote lands, uh, you know, there's ranching on it. They're building windmills. There's, uh, poaching that's going on. And, um, and you asked me earlier whether I-

Narrator 1:03:45 Poaching of-

Michael Pollan 1:03:46 Of peyote.

Narrator 1:03:47 ... San Pedro cactus?

Michael Pollan 1:03:47 Of peyote of people going... Yeah. No, not San Pedro. Peyote, peyote cactus.

Narrator 1:03:50 What does it d- what does the San Pedro grow?

Michael Pollan 1:03:52 I'll talk about-

Narrator 1:03:53 Oh.

Michael Pollan 1:03:53 ... I'll talk about that in a second. It's a different cactus that's not endangered at all.

Narrator 1:03:56 Is that... Do you get mescaline from that?

Michael Pollan 1:03:58 Yes.

Narrator 1:03:58 Okay, so mescaline-

Michael Pollan 1:03:59 So there's another way, if you're interested. And w- and I'll talk about that, but-

Narrator 1:04:02 But mescaline and peyote are really similar, right?

Michael Pollan 1:04:05 So mescaline is the chemical produced both by peyote and San Pedro.

Narrator 1:04:10 Oh, okay.

Michael Pollan 1:04:10 Okay? So they're two very different cacti that happen to produce the same alkaloid, which is called mescaline. So there is a, a big effort underway in the Native American community to save peyote. It, it's a conservation movement. Um, it's something called the Indigenous Peyote Conservation Initiative, IPCI, and they really deserve our support. And they're trying to buy up these ranch lands so that the Native Americans can pilgrimage down there, pick their own peyote. There's a very safe way to cut it to, to harvest it where it will regenerate, and there's another way that's often used where it doesn't regenerate. And it takes 15 years from seed to button, usable button.

Narrator 1:04:48 Wow.

Michael Pollan 1:04:49 So cultivating it is, uh, is a challenge. And, and Indians don't believe that cultivated peyote is the same or as good as wild-grown peyote. So, um, I finally decided after interviewing quite a few Native Americans that I shouldn't use it and that non-Natives should stay away from peyote, um, because we've taken so much, you know, from Native Americans. And this is a tool that's been really helpful to them in healing theirs- in their cultures, and there are other ways to get mescaline. Um, so, um, so I decided, you know, that would be, uh, that would be my s- tiny contribution is not using it.

Narrator 1:05:31 Is there an effort to reintroduce it in terms of, like, to plant it places and-

Michael Pollan 1:05:36 Part of this initiative is that they're starting peyote in nurseries and then planting it in the wild.

Narrator 1:05:42 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:05:43 And we'll see how that works. Um, it's a, it's a pokey... I grew it in my garden for a while. Um, it is the pokiest plant.

Narrator 1:05:50 Yeah?

Michael Pollan 1:05:50 It just doesn't do anything. It just sits there, and it's very slow-growing. It looks like a stone. It's very low to the ground. It's quite beautiful. Um-

Narrator 1:05:58 Can you pull up-

Michael Pollan 1:05:58 Yeah.

Narrator 1:05:58 I don't think I know what it looks like. I know what the San Pedro looks like.

Michael Pollan 1:06:00 And, and check out, uh, if there's flowering peyote too. It flowers beautifully. Um, but it's, um, it's just so precious. There's more on the Mexican side of the border, um, but even that is under threat from mining and all these tomato greenhouses that they're building. So they're just kind of, um... We need to take care of it.

Narrator 1:06:19 Well, it's crazy that it's so slow-growing.

Michael Pollan 1:06:21 I know. It's really crazy.

Narrator 1:06:22 15 years, I mean, that is-

Michael Pollan 1:06:23 Yeah.

Narrator 1:06:23 ... nuts.

Michael Pollan 1:06:24 I know. Well, it grows in a... Yeah, there's some with flowers.

Narrator 1:06:27 Oh, wow.

Michael Pollan 1:06:27 See? It looks like a stone.

Narrator 1:06:28 How trippy.

Michael Pollan 1:06:29 Or it looks like a pincushion.

Narrator 1:06:31 Wow.

Michael Pollan 1:06:33 Now, that's... Somebody's growing it.

Narrator 1:06:35 I'll find a bigger one if that's too small.

Michael Pollan 1:06:36 Yeah. There's, there's a big one with its babies. It's a... They spin off these little babies. And if you harvest it correctly, like you cut right underneath the button, there is a taproot.

Narrator 1:06:46 Oh.

Michael Pollan 1:06:46 Yeah, you see? The taproot's there. And if you, if you preserve the taproot, it'll regenerate. But a lot of poachers and, um, others just pull out the whole plant like a carrot.

Narrator 1:06:57 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:06:57 And then that destroys it.

Narrator 1:06:59 Wow.

Michael Pollan 1:07:00 But you see, it's... All the action's underground. In a way, it's like a mushroom, right?

Narrator 1:07:03 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:07:03 It's doing a lot of work underground and not much above ground. (laughs) And it has the... Instead of spines, it has this kind of furry, uh, flower or furry... I don't know what you call that thing. It's in place of spines.

Narrator 1:07:16 What a fascinating-looking creature.

Michael Pollan 1:07:18 Yeah. It, it almost looks like a sea creature.

Narrator 1:07:21 Yeah. Cactus alone, I mean, cacti are so wild.

Michael Pollan 1:07:26 Cactus are wild.

Narrator 1:07:26 So ex-

Michael Pollan 1:07:26 I've just started growing them.

Narrator 1:07:27 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:07:27 So I h- So I have a lot of San Pedro in my garden now, which is legal to grow. I should point out also peyote's illegal to grow.

Narrator 1:07:33 Illegal?

Michael Pollan 1:07:34 Illegal to grow.

Narrator 1:07:35 Really?

Michael Pollan 1:07:35 Um, yeah. So you're breaking the law. You're manufacturing a, a Schedule I substance.

Narrator 1:07:39 But San Pedro is legal.

Michael Pollan 1:07:41 Weirdly enough, San Pedro is illegal. It... I think it just-

Narrator 1:07:44 Is legal.

Michael Pollan 1:07:45 Is legal to grow.

Narrator 1:07:46 Yeah, yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:07:46 It had just escaped notice. Um-

Narrator 1:07:48 Oh.

Michael Pollan 1:07:48 ... they just never... Uh, part of it is that-

Narrator 1:07:51 Sort of like salvia?

Michael Pollan 1:07:52 Yeah, kind of like that. The taxonomy of San Pedro is a mess. There are three or four different species. They've all interbred. And they'd have to pin down the species to, to make it illegal. But I think it was just not on their radar when they were drawing up the, uh, the schedule. So it's grown as an ornamental. You can buy it in nurseries. You can buy it online. Uh, it grows very quickly compared to other cacti. Um, it's very pretty. Uh, it's much more vertical. It's a col- columnar ca- cactus. W- the point at which you break the law is when you start preparing the tea, um-

Narrator 1:08:28 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:08:28 ... which is a pretty simple process of, of, uh, essentially making... It's like a vegetable stock. You know, you remove all the thorns, uh, and slice it, and you get these beautiful stars 'cause it's a six-spine thing, and then you boil it for, like, three days.

Narrator 1:08:43 Three days?

Michael Pollan 1:08:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Narrator 1:08:46 Why do you have to boil it for so long?

Michael Pollan 1:08:47 I don't know. I think it may be, um... I, I can't believe you can't get all the peyote, uh, all the mescaline out of it in less than that, but I was told three days. That was the recipe.

Narrator 1:08:56 And what do they do once they boil it?

Michael Pollan 1:08:58 Uh, after you boil it, then you... It kind of turns to mush, so you have to filter it. Uh, and then you have this tea, and it's a, um, f- fairly mild psychedelic, I would say. Um, and peyote is too. They're not... There's n- So it's a very different phenomenology than other psychedelics. I mean, have you ever used mescaline?

Narrator 1:09:19 No, I haven't.

Michael Pollan 1:09:20 So I did. I used synthetic mescaline, and, uh, for the, for writing this book in the name of research, um, with, uh... And I also used San Pedro. Mescaline-... I got interested in mescaline in part because everybody I knew in the psychedelic community, I would ... When I was researching How to Change Your Mind, I'd say, "So what's your favorite psychedelic?" And I was so surprised to hear how many people said, "Mescaline," because it's not around. Nobody's doing research with it. It's like, "What happened to mescaline?" It's like the orphan psychedelic.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 1:09:51 So I wanted to figure out what that was all about. And there are a couple reasons. Um, a big problem with it is it takes about 14 hours. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 Oh, wow.

Michael Pollan 1:10:00 And you're done with mescaline before mescaline is done with you.

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 1:10:05 And so I just remember at the end of this very long day, I was like, "I just wanna have some dinner and go to bed," but, I ... it wasn't happening. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:10:12 Wow.

Michael Pollan 1:10:13 So it was, um ... For me, it was like 12 hours.

Joe Rogan 1:10:16 And what was the experience like? What did-

Michael Pollan 1:10:18 So it was a really interesting experience. There were not, uh, hallucinations. Um, and in the same way psy- some psychedelics take you out of yourself and out of this world to another world, this one immersed you more deeply in the world in front of you than you ever have been before, so that you get completely absorbed in material life. And you could spend an hour thinking about this cup or looking at a flower, or Huxley famously ... Aldous Huxley, you know, stared at the folds of his trousers for an hour-

Joe Rogan 1:10:52 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 1:10:52 ... and, like, had all these revelations. It's, it's about the here and now, this intense experience of the present moment that's like nothing I'd ever had, and it's almost overwhelming. There's this sense of the immensity of existence, and like, there's like, oh my god, stuff, existence. And, um ... But a lot of it is just very contemplative. You're very lucid. It's fairly gentle. I didn't have any gastrointestinal upset or anything. Um, I had periods at the peak where I felt a little out of control mentally. Uh, I remember trying to meditate to calm down, and whoever was meditating was someone else, and someone else was in my mind meditating.

Joe Rogan 1:11:35 (laughs)

Michael Pollan 1:11:35 I was like, "That's not working." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:36 (laughs) In what way?

Michael Pollan 1:11:39 I, I just closed my eyes, and I was this, like, South American woman, peasant woman meditating. It was like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:45 Wow.

Michael Pollan 1:11:45 ... "Where did she come from?" You know. It was the re- you know, I had been doing research on San Pedro, and it's a, it's a South American, um, cactus from Peru, and it was this Peruvian woman who just showed up. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 Do you think that was just, uh, like, y- you had this idea of who used it and that was imprinted in your memories? And-

Michael Pollan 1:12:03 I'm guessing. Yeah. I'm guessing that, um, I had an association of mescaline with the ... I, I had been interviewing people in Peru who used it ceremonially, and I had this image of this woman. And I work with this, uh, healer who works with, um, San Pedro, and she was kinda cut into that image too.

Joe Rogan 1:12:22 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:12:22 There's a little bit of her too. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 You know, McKenna had a really weird idea about psychedelic experiences, that, um, w- we wa- we always wanna think of each individual psychedelic experience we have as being our experience.

Michael Pollan 1:12:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 But he believed that there was a database connected to each entheogen. And so each one of these substances, you weren't just experiencing it. You were experiencing-

Michael Pollan 1:12:46 Plugging in.

Joe Rogan 1:12:46 ... the trips of millions-

Michael Pollan 1:12:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:48 ... of people over thousands of years.

Michael Pollan 1:12:50 It's like Carl Jung's idea of collective unconscious, right?

Joe Rogan 1:12:53 Mm-hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:12:53 That there's this imagery that is now hardwired in our bodies.

Joe Rogan 1:12:56 Yeah.

Michael Pollan 1:12:57 And that, and that's why cultures produce art that has all these kind of recurring motifs. Well, we know the DMT story, right? With, uh, the, you know, machine elves and the various ... You know?

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Hmm.

Michael Pollan 1:13:07 A lot of people have the same imagery on that drug.

Joe Rogan 1:13:10 Right.

Michael Pollan 1:13:10 Now, whether that, whether Terence McKenna started that, 'cause that was a meme he introduced to the culture, you'd have to find some innocent culture and see if they have the same experience, that had never heard about that idea.

Joe Rogan 1:13:21 I did not have machine elves in my conscience, but I did hear literally in l- uh, not, not even hearing it, like when you, you ... they would say things to you. But one of the things they said was, "Do not give in to astonishment."

Michael Pollan 1:13:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:37 Which was exactly what McKenna used to always say, "Do not give in to astonishment." And then the other thing was, "I love you." There would be-

Michael Pollan 1:13:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:13:46 But like a child. Like, "I love you 600 million 500,000 times."

Michael Pollan 1:13:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:51 They would say it in this crazy way, and then they would go, "Look at this," and, "Look at this." And every time they would go, "Look at this," they'd show you something more spectacular than you had seen before. Like, every time the visuals-

Michael Pollan 1:14:02 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 Like, you would think these visuals are impossible to pass.

Michael Pollan 1:14:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:05 And they would go, "Look at this."

Michael Pollan 1:14:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 And it would be even more insane.

Michael Pollan 1:14:08 Now, why not give in to astonishment? What's the idea behind that?

Joe Rogan 1:14:11 I think the idea is you could be so blown away by what's in front of you, and this is from McKenna's words. So again, I don't know how much of what I was experiencing was these things communicating with me, 'cause I never heard anybody say that they said, "Look at this," or,