Joe Rogan Experience #1678 - Michael Pollan

1. 0:00 – 3:25

   Why Pollan’s outsider journalism helped legitimize psychedelics

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. MPMichael Pollan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   4. MPMichael Pollan0:14

      All right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Mr. Pollan.

   6. MPMichael Pollan0:15

      Yeah, hey.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Good to see you, man.

   8. MPMichael Pollan0:16

      Good to be here, good to be back.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Good to see you again. And, uh, good to see you in the... You done with the headphones, huh?

   10. MPMichael Pollan0:22

       I'm done with the headphones, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       (laughs) In and out instantaneously. Um, your new book, This is Your Mind on Plants.

   12. MPMichael Pollan0:28

       Yeah, right here. (book thumps)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       Yeah. I like it. Um, since you've been on, I, I have to say that out of all of the people that have discussed psychedelics, I think you've been one of the most important ones because you were a r- respected, esteemed journalist. You're like a r- a real writer already. And for you to int- introduce the world of psychedelics to people that maybe would've been skeptical of someone's intentions. Like, there's a lot of folks that, like, you read something about drugs, and even if it's from someone that has credentials, you sort of assume that they're trying to justify some-

   14. MPMichael Pollan1:08

       Yeah, they have an agenda starting-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:10

       Yeah.

   16. MPMichael Pollan1:10

       ... when they're starting out. I think you're right. I think that made a huge difference. I was coming at that world from outside. I'd had very little experience with psychedelics, virtually none as a kid. Um, I'd heard about this research. I was curious, I was skeptical, and so I went on this journey that brought me into this community. And, um, and I think that allowed people to follow me, to come with me. I think people would r- much rather go on a journey with you than have you lecture at them.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       Oh, for sure.

   18. MPMichael Pollan1:40

       And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:40

       Yeah.

   20. MPMichael Pollan1:40

       ... so I alwa- in all my journalism, that's what I try to do. I, I, I start out as unknowing or ignorant as the reader-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MPMichael Pollan1:48

       ... and, uh, and then gradually work my way into the world of whether it's food and agriculture or psychedelics. And, um, uh, so in all my books, I kinda start out like an idiot. And (laughs) gradually-

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:00

       (laughs)

   24. MPMichael Pollan2:01

       ... move toward, toward a state of knowledge or more knowledge.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       I think that's incredibly relatable to people, because it, it just, it, it lets people know what you're learning, how you're learning it-

   26. MPMichael Pollan2:12

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       ... and why you're learning it, and what-

   28. MPMichael Pollan2:13

       And how you come to your conclusions.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:14

       Yeah.

   30. MPMichael Pollan2:14

       That it's the result of having these experiences or talking to these people. And they see the, they see the, the, all the armature of journalists, and they see how it works, um, 'cause you're letting them, you know, you're being very transparent about the process. Um, and also, y- you know, I think that, you know, there are lots of... Uh, most of the stuff that'd been written about psychedelics and most of the stuff I was reading was written from, like, inside the world, already convinced that these were great things that were gonna change human consciousness. And that's a turn off to people, especially if you have this resistance, which many, many people do. There's so much cultural baggage around psychedelics left over from the '60s. You know, people-
2. 3:25 – 6:43

   Risks, backlash dynamics, and screening for psychosis vulnerability

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:25

      Well, there's a great fear of losing your mind. I mean, y- you know about the guy from Pink Floyd-

   2. MPMichael Pollan3:30

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      ... and people hear about, you know, some guy in the neighborhood that did too much acid.

   4. MPMichael Pollan3:33

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:33

      The thing is, they are real. Like, there are really-

   6. MPMichael Pollan3:36

      Oh, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:36

      ... people that have lost-

   8. MPMichael Pollan3:36

      There are casualties.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:37

      Yeah.

   10. MPMichael Pollan3:37

       And I think we have to acknowledge that. And I think unless we're really frank about the risks, we risk another backlash, 'cause bad shit will happen.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       Yes.

   12. MPMichael Pollan3:46

       Some, you know, if you're trialing, you know, a couple thousand people for depression, which they're doing, these clinical trials to see if psilocybin can help with depression, some of those people are gonna commit suicide. That's what depressed people do.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MPMichael Pollan3:58

       And, you know, especially if you get them off their SSRIs, you know, that r- increases the risk. But that narrative, when someone in a clinical trial for depression w- with psychedelics gets out there, it'll plug into this old narrative about people jumping-

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:14

       Right.

   16. MPMichael Pollan4:14

       ... off of buildings. Whereas people routinely commit suicide on SSRIs and it doesn't make the news.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:19

       Right.

   18. MPMichael Pollan4:20

       So there are these... It, it's when a story plugs into an existing narrative in the culture that it, that it really takes off. It has this, you know, incredible power. And that could happen. Um, so I, I think we should be... I think the way you inoculate the culture is talking about risk, and, and say that there were casualties. There are people who, you know, did, you know, I don't wanna say fry their brains, 'cause that's, it's, it's pretty imprecise, (laughs) but people had some psychotic breaks-

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:46

       Yeah.

   20. MPMichael Pollan4:47

       ... on psychedelics. Would they have had them anyway? There's reason to believe they would. It's not like schizophrenia rates went up during the '60s. Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:55

       Do you think it triggers schizophrenia, though?

   22. MPMichael Pollan4:57

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       Yeah, I thin-

   24. MPMichael Pollan4:57

       I think that's probably what happens. Any kind of, uh, kind of traumatic experience can do it. Um, divorce, a parent can do it. You know, if you're at that age and you have that vulnerability, going to graduate school for a certain number of people does it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MPMichael Pollan5:12

       Um, you know, extreme stress. And it, and it can be an extreme experience. Um, so there is a good reason that people, even second-degree relatives who have, uh, schizophrenia, you can't participate in any of these trials. They're screening people. And also for manic depression, they're, they're screening you out, and there are good reasons for that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       Yeah. There, um, there's this discussion about cannabis, um, that's been going on for a while now of, like, what happens to people when they, particularly when they eat edibles. Um, like, i- is, is it something that triggers schizophrenia? And I think the n- the numbers, as you're saying, they really do mirror the numbers that just happen in a general population. Like, it's one out of 100.

   28. MPMichael Pollan5:55

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       And one out of 100 people seem to have a significant problem.

   30. MPMichael Pollan5:59

       Yeah, I, I mean, people, a c- certain number of people are, are at risk. They're bound to get schizophrenia a- at those windows. I think it's in, you know, right around 20 and right around 30, uh, years old seems to be the window. And-
3. 6:43 – 8:43

   ‘This Is Your Mind on Plants’: why humans use plants to alter consciousness

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:43

      Yeah. Um, what was the motivation to write this new book?

   2. MPMichael Pollan6:47

      So (sighs) the motivation for this book grew out of a longstanding interest in our relationship to plants. I've been obsessed with plants since I was like an eight-year-old gardener. And, um, and I've written a lot about, uh, how we use plants and how plants use us, and that relationship has been of keen interest. And I looked at food. Uh, eating plants is obviously one of the big things we do with them and a big part of our relationship. Um, and, uh, and then when I started working on psychedelics, I was really struck by the fact that, um, one of the things humans have used plants for forever is to change consciousness. And that seemed like a very curious phenomenon. Um, but ev- there is... Every culture on Earth, with one notable exception, has some plant or fungus that they use regularly, and often ceremonially, to change consciousness. The exception are the Inuit, the Eskimos, and it's only because there's no-

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:41

      Nothing's grow plants.

   4. MPMichael Pollan7:42

      Nothing good grows where they live.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:43

      That's interesting. Do they change their consciousness at all? Do they use breathing exercises or-

   6. MPMichael Pollan7:47

      They may well. I don't know, um, 'cause there are many ways to change your consciousness. You're right, breathing can do it. Uh, fasting can do it. Ex- ex- extreme exertion can do it. Um, so there are other tools for doing it, but most humans have used plants. Uh, you know, and of course, there's alcohol too, which changes consciousness. It's, it's... Alcohol is not produced by plants. It's actually produced by a fungus. But, um, so I was... I, I've always wanted to explore this issue of, why do we do this? What good is it to change consciousness? 'Cause you would think from an evolutionary point of view, it might be a bad idea. You know, when you change consciousness, you're more likely to have accidents. You're more vulnerable to predators, um, and, you know, so you would think that if it, that it would be kinda edited out by natural selection, but it hasn't been.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:38

      Yeah.

   8. MPMichael Pollan8:38

      If drug-taking were really bad, the drug-takers would be gone from evolution, and they're not.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:43

      Hmm.

4. 8:43 – 15:33

   Drug war unraveling: decriminalization, legalization, and policy tradeoffs

   1. MPMichael Pollan8:43

      And so I started thinking, "Well, what are they good for? How do we use drugs? Why are they part of our lives?" And we're at this very interesting moment where the drug war is starting to end. I, I think we can see the end of the drug war. Um, the voters have spoken and they've essentially sued for peace. You know, we've had all these, um, ballot initiatives. What happened in Oregon last fall was amazing.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:04

      I think something just happened in California.

   3. MPMichael Pollan9:06

      Yes, the California State Senate voted to legalize psychedelics, inc- and also MDMA.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:13

      Legalize or decriminalize?

   5. MPMichael Pollan9:14

      You know, they, they sell it as decriminalize, but if you read the bill, it's legalize.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:19

      So, what is the specifics?

   7. MPMichael Pollan9:21

      Well, the specifics are that those, the substance in the bill, which are LSD, MDMA, psilocybin, ibogaine, which is troubling given the specific risks associated with ibogaine, which we can talk about. Um, uh-

   8. JRJoe Rogan9:34

      Kinda makes a trip to me.

   9. MPMichael Pollan9:35

      ... DMT. Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan9:35

       Yeah.

   11. MPMichael Pollan9:36

       DMT's in there. I don't know if 5-MeO-DMT is in there. I don't think it is. Uh, mescaline-producing cacti, um, uh, and basically, um, personal use, growing, and social sharing-

   12. JRJoe Rogan9:51

       Huh.

   13. MPMichael Pollan9:51

       ... is legal. N- no commercialization. Um, although that's, that gets a little weird because if a guide, let's say an underground guide, charges you $1,500 for her services and just gives you the psilocybin, is that commercialization or not?

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:09

       Right. Is that... Is it legal to be a guide? Like that seems commercializa-

   15. MPMichael Pollan10:13

       Well-

   16. JRJoe Rogan10:14

       Even if someone brings their own.

   17. MPMichael Pollan10:16

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan10:16

       Right? I mean, you're sort of profiting off-

   19. MPMichael Pollan10:18

       That's vague.

   20. JRJoe Rogan10:19

       ... of the use.

   21. MPMichael Pollan10:19

       It's, I... Frankly, some aspects of this bill do not strike me as being completely well thought out. I mean, including ibogaine where you really should have a health examination before you use it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan10:30

       Why? Why is that?

   23. MPMichael Pollan10:31

       Well, ibogaine has shown some... This is a African shrub that is a psychedelic used in Africa for a long time. Um-

   24. JRJoe Rogan10:38

       Which is apparently phenomenal for people with-

   25. MPMichael Pollan10:40

       Opiate, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan10:41

       Yeah.

   27. MPMichael Pollan10:41

       Yeah. Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan10:41

       Addictions.

   29. MPMichael Pollan10:41

       So, 'cause in addition to giving you the psychedelic experience, it removes the craving for opium. So it's been... There's a lot of clinics in Mexico who are using it. However-

   30. JRJoe Rogan10:50

       (laughs)
5. 15:33 – 21:51

   Building safer “containers”: indigenous models, ritual, and cultural appropriation limits

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:33

      Yeah, I think that's what's really important is people do have to understand the risks involved in all these different things, and it's not simple. It's not clean. And we have to understand dosages, we have to understand w- the, the set and setting, what's the right way to use 'em, when not to use 'em. Certain people will be vulnerable.

   2. MPMichael Pollan15:50

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:50

      Especially people that are psychologically vulnerable. They, they shouldn't be, uh, experimenting with these things. And if it, we... Because of all of the years of suppression, unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on-

   4. MPMichael Pollan16:03

      Exactly.

   5. JRJoe Rogan16:03

      ... in terms of a roadmap.

   6. MPMichael Pollan16:05

      Exactly. And that's why it's gonna be hard work. And, and that's one of the reasons in the, uh, third section of this book on mescaline, I, I spent a lot of time looking at the Native American church, because I think indigenous use of psychedelics has a lot to teach us. Um, I don't think we can just borrow it, their methods, lock, stock, and barrel, but there's certain principles that are really interesting and helpful. Um, one is, you seldom do it alone. Um, you always do it with intention, purpose. There is usually an elder involved to guide you. Um, and it's always surrounded by ritual, and I think that's really significant. Um, and people who use drugs in a ritual way seldom get into trouble.

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:49

      Hmm.

   8. MPMichael Pollan16:50

      Even alcohol. I mean, t- alcohol's, right, it does m- more damage than any of these drugs we're talking about. Um, and, uh, uh ... So people who use alcohol in a ritual way, which is to say, you know, think of the social rituals we have. You don't e- you don't drink 'til the evening, right? You don't start off in the morning drinking. You-

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:10

      Or toast to a wedding or something like that.

   10. MPMichael Pollan17:12

       Right, yeah. That, that's a ritual that we, uh, and, and then also that we, we have, uh, alcohol with food very often. Um, we t- we don't drive after we drink. Um, you know, it's a social thing. Uh, people who drink that way are not the ones who get in serious trouble with it, um, if they can stick to those rituals and rules. And that's true across the board. So, I spent a lot of time interviewing Native Americans about the peyote ceremony and how they use it. And, you know, we think of psychedelics as incredibly disruptive to society, and in some ways it was in the '60s, right? I mean, you know, it, it fed the anti-war movement, um, it led to the generation gap and, and lots of, you know, tensions came out of it. A lot of productive things came out of it too, um, but we think of it as very disruptive. Um, but in the Native American community, you have this model of drug use that's incredibly conservative and moral. Um, it's this very rigid ceremony. Everybody sits around the fire, stares at the fire. There, there are rules about which way the basket of peyote passes around the room. There are songs you sing in certain ways. There's drumming. Um-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       Did you do it?

   12. MPMichael Pollan18:21

       No, I didn't, and I'll tell you why in a second. And the, um, uh, the focus is on healing somebody, um, and somebody who's got trauma, someone who's d- who has alcoholism, spousal abuse, um, or a big rite of passage, someone's going off to the army or whatever it is. Um, and everyone's attention is focused on that person. And, um, and Native Americans say it is incredibly therapeutic and, and it has been vital to the survival of Indian culture, which as you know, you know, uh, we tried to stamp out. We, meaning white Americans, tried to crush, um, in the 19th century. And that's when peyoteism arose is when Indian culture was on the verge of complete collapse. It was a really dark moment. They were forcing Indians onto reservations in Oklahoma. They were taking boys, uh, young boys, cutting their hair, and sending 'em off to boarding school with the e- explicit goal of, this was what the superintendent of one of these schools said, "To kill the Indian and save the man."... and peyotism arose at this moment as a way to hold onto culture and heal trauma, and it worked.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:32

       Yeah, I don't think there's a p- particularly long history of peyotism.

   14. MPMichael Pollan19:35

       It's not ancient. Uh, well, in a, with North American-

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       Right.

   16. MPMichael Pollan19:38

       ... Indians, peyotism really begins in the 1880s, which is when-

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       Really?

   18. MPMichael Pollan19:43

       ... this ... Yeah. And the church is not actually established till 1918, but it's in the 1880s. However, there were Indians in Texas, and many more in Mexico, that had been using peyote continually for thousands of years.

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:00

       Do you know what specific tribes?

   20. MPMichael Pollan20:02

       Uh, the Huichol in, in Mexico. I don't know which the, uh, Texas tribes were. Um, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       And they were using it in the same ritual fashion?

   22. MPMichael Pollan20:10

       We don't know exactly what the ritual was, but they were using it. So the oldest archeological evidence is from Texas. It's, uh, on the Rio Grande. There's something called the Shumla Caves, which is an archeological dig that was discovered a few decades ago. And they found there peyote effigies, little dolls made out of peyote, um, and evidence that they were being used ceremonially. So it's the oldest psychedelic. So even though that chain was broken with some North American tribes ... 'Cause it only grows, by the way, in Texas. There's a very small band of, uh, near Laredo where the peyote gardens are.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:44

       Mm.

   24. MPMichael Pollan20:45

       And, um, so it, uh, it was kind of rediscovered and moved up to Oklahoma, and then it spread around the country from there.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       When you say it's the oldest psychedelic, do you mean-

   26. MPMichael Pollan20:56

       That we know of, that we have evidence it was being used, um, 6,000 years ago.

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:02

       Really?

   28. MPMichael Pollan21:02

       Yeah. There may be older ones, but I, I haven't seen the record of that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:05

       What is the evidence? The-

   30. MPMichael Pollan21:06

       It's the North-
6. 21:51 – 25:27

   Ancient psychedelics and the roots of religion: Eleusis, ergot, and ‘Immortality Key’

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:51

      D- do you ... Are you aware of, um, the book The Immortality Key?

   2. MPMichael Pollan21:55

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:55

      Brian Muraresku's book?

   4. MPMichael Pollan21:57

      Yeah. Fascinating.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:57

      Fascinating.

   6. MPMichael Pollan21:58

      And he's found ... You know, he's writing about evidence of very early use in the Old World of psychedelic compounds. Uh, ergot-

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:06

      Yeah.

   8. MPMichael Pollan22:06

      ... which is the fungus from which LSD is derived, was found in some communion cups, right?

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:12

      Yeah.

   10. MPMichael Pollan22:12

       In Spain.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:13

       Yeah.

   12. MPMichael Pollan22:14

       That's kinda wild.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:15

       Wild.

   14. MPMichael Pollan22:15

       And, and the idea that the Eucharist, uh, may have involved a psychedelic. There was also cannabis found in some Jewish sites-

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MPMichael Pollan22:24

       ... uh, from that period. And I've always wondered about wine in Greece, you know, that they would talk about these wild Dionysian revels. And th- and they drank wine out of glasses like this big.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:34

       Right.

   18. MPMichael Pollan22:35

       There had to be something else.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:36

       Oh, for sure. And also, did you know wine back then had a very low alcohol content?

   20. MPMichael Pollan22:40

       I didn't know that.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:41

       Yeah.

   22. MPMichael Pollan22:41

       All the more reason-

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:42

       So did beer.

   24. MPMichael Pollan22:42

       ... to suspect-

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:43

       Yeah.

   26. MPMichael Pollan22:43

       ... that, uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:44

       They were spiking it.

   28. MPMichael Pollan22:45

       They were spiking it with something.

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:46

       Yeah.

   30. MPMichael Pollan22:46

       We don't know what. I mean, and we don't know how d- how you would use ergot, because ergot can also give you gangrene. (laughs)
7. 25:27 – 28:19

   Psychedelics in cultural and scientific innovation: memes, religion, PCR, imagination

   1. MPMichael Pollan25:27

      I ... You know, look, I think psychedelics have had a very profound effect on cultural evolution in many, many ways. Um, the, the encounter of these molecules with a certain mind produces a-... memes, new ideas, metaphors, theories, and visions that sometimes, not always, um, ends up changing everything. Um, you know, 99% of the things people, insights people have on psychedelics are probably not that valuable, you know? Th- I mean, they may be personally useful, you know, love is everything, whatever it is. But every now and then, in a certain mind, uh, there is an idea. And it might be a vision of an afterworld, it might be the idea of an unseen otherworld, a beyond, um, and then that person tells that story. And suddenly, this enters culture. "Yeah, somebody had a vision. They went up on a mountain and they saw God." It's a very plausible explanation for how religion might get started.

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:24

      It completely makes sense to me. And in fact, d- wasn't there... There's been some work at the, w- one of the universities in Israel where they were s- they're s- trying to connect the, uh, acacia tree with, uh, the burning bush that Moses saw.

   3. MPMichael Pollan26:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:39

      'Cause the acacia tree apparently is rich in DMT and they're trying to s- th- their, their connection they're making is the burning bush, being God, was-

   5. MPMichael Pollan26:48

      Was.

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:49

      ... consuming smoked DMT.

   7. MPMichael Pollan26:52

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:52

      And that they were having this vision-

   9. MPMichael Pollan26:54

      Wow.

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:54

       ... that Moses was has- I mean, it makes sense if you're, if you're translating things from Ancient Hebrew-

   11. MPMichael Pollan26:58

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       ... to Latin, to Greek, to whatever the fuck they're doing, you're gonna lose a lot of whatever they're trying to say, and especially when you're talking about-

   13. MPMichael Pollan27:04

       And you're gonna w- not know what's a metaphor and what's literal.

   14. JRJoe Rogan27:07

       Exactly. Exactly.

   15. MPMichael Pollan27:08

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan27:08

       And that's what they think, too. Yeah.

   17. MPMichael Pollan27:09

       That's fascinating. I haven't heard about that. I have to follow up on that. So I'm very interested in the role that psychedelics have played. And it's true in science too, right? I mean, we just took a PCR test, I think, uh, you know, COVID test, and who invented PCR? A scientist named Kary Mullis, who got the idea, um, on an LSD trip in Northern California.

   18. JRJoe Rogan27:29

       Yeah.

   19. MPMichael Pollan27:29

       And he's wr- and he's talked about it, and he said, "LSD allowed me to sit on the molecule and watch and see what was going on." And so that encounter of that molecule with that mind gave us this amazing tool that all of genetics depends on.

   20. JRJoe Rogan27:43

       Yeah. Well, d- we took a rapid antigen test, by the way.

   21. MPMichael Pollan27:46

       Oh, okay. All right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan27:46

       We didn't take a PCR test.

   23. MPMichael Pollan27:47

       All right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:48

       But yeah, he's, uh-

   25. MPMichael Pollan27:48

       Thanks for the fact check.

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:49

       He's spoken out about that, and he just, uh, said s- "It's not what it's for. It shouldn't be used in that regard."

   27. MPMichael Pollan27:54

       Interesting.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:55

       Yeah. He, uh-

   29. MPMichael Pollan27:56

       But anyway, it's been-

   30. JRJoe Rogan27:56

       But, uh, but he found it again.
8. 28:19 – 35:48

   Stoned Ape vs. cooking hypothesis: competing stories of human evolution

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:19

      Well, I think the last time you were here, we talked about Terence McKenna's stoned ape theory-

   2. MPMichael Pollan28:23

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:23

      ... which is the most fascinating.

   4. MPMichael Pollan28:24

      I know. And, and the one I have the most trouble getting my head around, um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:30

      Have you talked to Dennis about it? Dennis McKenna?

   6. MPMichael Pollan28:31

      Yeah. Oh, yeah, we've talked about it. We're doing an event together actually, uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:34

      Oh, great.

   8. MPMichael Pollan28:34

      ... in a couple weeks, and I'm sure it'll come up.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:36

      Dennis is the most convincing-

   10. MPMichael Pollan28:38

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:38

       ... when he discusses it, because first of-

   12. MPMichael Pollan28:39

       I haven't heard his whole rap on it, but I need to.

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:41

       Um, I'll send you a video of him saying it from this podcast, 'cause he's-

   14. MPMichael Pollan28:45

       Great.

   15. JRJoe Rogan28:45

       Dennis is brilliant, and he also is-

   16. MPMichael Pollan28:48

       I, I totally agree.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:49

       He's well-versed in the world of psychedelics. And so when he-

   18. MPMichael Pollan28:53

       Yeah, and in the world of his brother. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:54

       Yes, yes, in, in good and bad, right? And, you know, his brother was just such a, an important figure in the psychedelic world of just spreading the gospel 'cause he was so-

   20. MPMichael Pollan29:04

       I so regret I w- I hadn't, I got into it too late-

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:07

       Me too.

   22. MPMichael Pollan29:08

       ... to, to meet him.

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:08

       Yeah, me, me too.

   24. MPMichael Pollan29:09

       Um, and I mean, to have him on this podcast would've been amazing.

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:11

       Oh my God. Don't...

   26. MPMichael Pollan29:13

       Yeah, lost opportunity.

   27. JRJoe Rogan29:14

       Yeah. That would be the guy, yeah. If it w- and people always say, like, "Who, like, living or dead? Who's the person you wish you could've gotten on?"

   28. MPMichael Pollan29:20

       Is that on, he's on the list?

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:21

       I would've said Ter- Terence, yeah. Bill Hicks and Terence McKenna, those would be my two guys.

   30. MPMichael Pollan29:23

       So, you know, the issue with that is that how... I understand how the impact of psychedelics finds its way into cultural evolution pretty easily.
9. 35:48 – 48:37

   Mushroom ecology and contested entheogens: morels, Amanita, and ordeal rituals

   1. JRJoe Rogan35:48

      Mushrooms are interesting, right? They have like different kinda specific conditions that they w- Like, uh, morel mushrooms are-

   2. MPMichael Pollan35:54

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan35:54

      ... really, really delicious, and apparently, they favor places where it's been burned.

   4. MPMichael Pollan35:58

      Burned, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan35:59

      Oh.

   6. MPMichael Pollan35:59

      I went hunting for them-

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:00

      Yeah.

   8. MPMichael Pollan36:00

      ... a couple years ago for my last book, and, um, after fires, big forest fires, um, y- you can reliably go out there in the spring just as the snow is melting. They pop up in huge quantities. I c- We, we found... You know, we were like, "10, 20, 30 pounds of morels," and you know you don't-

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:19

      Wow.

   10. MPMichael Pollan36:19

       ... that's a lot of morels.

   11. JRJoe Rogan36:20

       That's crazy.

   12. MPMichael Pollan36:21

       It was always on fire lands. And the reason, the theory is that, you know, these fungi, first of all, most of them, you know, live underground, right? I mean, the, the, the part we see is just the fruiting body. It's like the apple on the tree. Everything else is underground. That they're happily doing their thing, and then suddenly there's a crisis and they've lost their hosts. Their hosts are dead. So they have to get out of the forest. So they put up these fruiting bodies and hope that their spores will move them to a place that hasn't burned.

   13. JRJoe Rogan36:49

       Oh, that's what it is.

   14. MPMichael Pollan36:50

       So they're... Yeah, it's their escape strategy.

   15. JRJoe Rogan36:53

       Wow.

   16. MPMichael Pollan36:53

       And we're helping them by picking it and moving them around.

   17. JRJoe Rogan36:56

       Oh, wow. That's fascinating. Did you dehydrate them and save them?

   18. MPMichael Pollan36:59

       Yeah, we dried as ma- Um, we ate a lot of them. Um-

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:02

       They're so good.

   20. MPMichael Pollan37:02

       ... I was hunting with a guy who hunts for restaurants in Northern California, so he sold most of them and I took a couple pounds home. Um, but I didn't, I didn't dehydrate. I've done that with porcini when I found too many porcini, um, but I, I didn't do it with morels. I just ate them really quickly.

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:16

       The only way I've ever gotten them is buy them from, uh, distributors online that sell them dried out.

   22. MPMichael Pollan37:21

       Dried, yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:21

       Yeah.

   24. MPMichael Pollan37:22

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:22

       They're so good though.

   26. MPMichael Pollan37:22

       They're fantastic, but fresh is... They're amazing. And I haven't had too many occasions, so... But, you know, we had a lot of fires last year in California, so there'll be a lot of morels.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       Mm.

   28. MPMichael Pollan37:33

       That's the one good thing you can say. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan37:35

       Yeah. D- Is there like... Is there a place where the Amanita muscaria reliably grows where it is... Does, does have a psychedelic property to it? Because that's one of those really debatable-

   30. MPMichael Pollan37:50

       Yeah.
10. 48:37 – 52:38

    How psychedelics enter society: medical clinics, retreat centers, and churches

    1. JRJoe Rogan48:37

       What I would like is... And the problem with this is of course the cult of personality. I would love like psychedelic centers, if there was some place where people could go to have these experiences. But what I worry is that the person who is giving out these psychedelics and the person who is, uh, you know, maybe setting the set and setting for the pe- becomes a guru or becomes, it becomes cult-like.

    2. MPMichael Pollan49:02

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan49:02

       Because there's a potential there, especially for the, the uninitiated who's meeting the initiated.

    4. MPMichael Pollan49:07

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan49:07

       And they all have, you know, this kind of way of talking that seems a little contrived and they're wearing wooden beads.

    6. MPMichael Pollan49:13

       And they have the answer and they know the key to the universe.

    7. JRJoe Rogan49:16

       Fuck, man. That's a problem.

    8. MPMichael Pollan49:16

       There's a weird experience, there's a weird phenomenon with psychedelics. You know, we talk a lot about ego dissolution on psychedelics, but there's also ego inflation.

    9. JRJoe Rogan49:24

       Yes.

    10. MPMichael Pollan49:24

        And that happens. And, um, you know, we've seen that in the culture and that people who are so, uh, you know, have had a revelation about psychedelics and they wanna share it with the world and they become gurus and, um, and that's a, that's a phenomenon to watch out for. I, I agree. I think someday we will move to... I'm very interested in this process of how psychedelics move into the society. And, and I see three paths basically. There's the medical path, which is, you know, we're pretty far down that path. The FDA will probably, um, approve MDMA within, what, what does Rick Doblin say? Two years or something like that?

    11. JRJoe Rogan49:59

        Yeah.

    12. MPMichael Pollan49:59

        Yeah. Maybe three for psilocybin or four. So it's not far away at all.

    13. JRJoe Rogan50:04

        And ketamine is currently in use pretty widely right now for therapy.

    14. MPMichael Pollan50:07

        And that is, for many people, that is suggesting a model. So there's, you know, Field Trip Health, you know, this company that's building ketamine clinics all around the country, very lavish spa-like places where you can get a ketamine experience, um, uh, you know, with a nurse or a doctor present. Uh, they're very expensive. Um, and they're doing this basically to work out the kinks so that they can move to psilocybin and MDMA when it's ready. So that'll be one kind of elite way that people will have the experience 'cause it'll cost thousands of dollars. Um, and then there'll be the medical model. Um, and it'll, that'll probably be more clinic based. Um, nobody's figured out exactly, but, um... And then there'll be the religious model, and I think that's a really interesting one to watch. In the same way the Native American Church and two ayahuasca churches have the constitutional right to use a psychedelic as their sacrament, there are a lot of other new churches forming now. Um, and given the Supreme Court and its expansive, um-... you know, interpretations of religious liberty. Um, basically they're cutting huge amounts of slack that, uh, e- for reasons of religious conscience, you can be exempted from all sorts of federal regulations and laws. I mean, Hobby Lobby and the decision just the other day, um, that when the, some of these psychedelic churches find their way up to the Supreme Court, this Supreme Court's gonna have a hard time saying no. Um-

    15. JRJoe Rogan51:40

        Hmm.

    16. MPMichael Pollan51:41

        ... and there are, uh, there is a group of psychedelic lawyers who are looking for the right cases to bring through the system. And-

    17. JRJoe Rogan51:49

        Boy, does that sound like an oxymoron.

    18. MPMichael Pollan51:50

        (laughs) Yeah, psychedelic lawyers. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan51:54

        (laughs)

    20. MPMichael Pollan51:54

        It really is. They call themselves that. I'm not calling them that.

    21. JRJoe Rogan51:55

        That's great. I love it.

    22. MPMichael Pollan51:57

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan51:57

        I'm glad they're out there, but I'm just-

    24. MPMichael Pollan51:58

        They're, they're based in Boulder, as you would guess.

    25. JRJoe Rogan52:00

        I mean, it's the ultimate jumbo shrimp.

    26. MPMichael Pollan52:02

        (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan52:02

        You know? Of course, they're based in Boulder. (laughs)

    28. MPMichael Pollan52:06

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan52:06

        I fucking love Boulder.

    30. MPMichael Pollan52:07

        It's too good. It's too good.
11. 52:38 – 59:29

    Psychedelics in art and architecture: Alex Grey, Entheon, and ‘Acido Dorado’

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:38

       Yes. Um, are you aware what Alex Grey is doing?

    2. MPMichael Pollan52:41

       Not right now, no.

    3. JRJoe Rogan52:42

       Do you know who Alex Grey is?

    4. MPMichael Pollan52:42

       Yeah, sure. The, the artist.

    5. JRJoe Rogan52:43

       The artist?

    6. MPMichael Pollan52:43

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan52:44

       He has formed a church. He has religious tax-exempt status, and he's building this insane spectacular chapel in Upstate New York. He bought a bunch of land, and, uh, he was in some sort of a dispute with the town, but I think they've settled that-

    8. MPMichael Pollan53:01

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:02

       ... because he's not paying any taxes 'cause he's a church.

    10. MPMichael Pollan53:04

        He's a church. (laughs) I'm sure they're pleased about that.

    11. JRJoe Rogan53:05

        Uh, but I mean, if anybo- if anybody can do that, it's Alex Grey.

    12. MPMichael Pollan53:08

        Yeah, he'll get the iconography down and-

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:10

        Oh my God.

    14. MPMichael Pollan53:11

        ... yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:11

        You gotta see what the place looks like.

    16. MPMichael Pollan53:12

        Have you been there?

    17. JRJoe Rogan53:13

        No, I have not-

    18. MPMichael Pollan53:14

        I gotta check it out.

    19. JRJoe Rogan53:14

        ... but I must. I must go. It's-

    20. MPMichael Pollan53:16

        Well, I spend part of the year in that part of the world, so-

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:18

        Oh.

    22. MPMichael Pollan53:18

        ... I will check it out.

    23. JRJoe Rogan53:19

        I've had Alex on a couple of times, and he's a, a genuine gem of a human being, and just a-

    24. MPMichael Pollan53:24

        I've never met him. I've never met him.

    25. JRJoe Rogan53:25

        Oh, he's, he's the real deal, man.

    26. MPMichael Pollan53:27

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan53:27

        He's, like, when you're around him, like, he... first of all, he's so kind. And as an artist, he's phenomenal. He's so brilliant as an artist, but he l- that's him. He's walking the walk. I mean, he's just so present.

    28. MPMichael Pollan53:41

        So, i- and so is LSD a sacrament in this, in this church?

    29. JRJoe Rogan53:44

        You'd have to ask him.

    30. MPMichael Pollan53:45

        Okay.
12. 59:29 – 1:03:20

    Do psychedelics make people better? early research, bias, and ethical speculation

    1. JRJoe Rogan59:29

       Yeah. And I think in a good way. I think one of the benefits of the clo- cross your fingers, of, uh, these psychedelics is the enhancement of the feeling of love and community.

    2. MPMichael Pollan59:40

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan59:40

       Which is what everybody needs right now.

    4. MPMichael Pollan59:42

       Yeah. So, I think that's a really interesting theme. And my gut says yes, I mean, that, that the nature of the psychedelic experience could make people better people, make them feel more connected, more compassionate. But I don't think we can say that with confidence yet. I think we actually have to do science about that to figure out. I mean, there's some preliminary research, for example, that was done at Imperial College in London that shows that people's nature connectedness goes up. Their scores of how connected you feel to the natural world, and tolerance for authoritarianism goes down, openness of personality goes up. So, these are preliminary, but if you think about who has participated in these studies, they tend to be inclined in that direction already.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

       Hmm.

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:00:29

       You really have to get like the Koch brothers or Trump-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

       (laughs)

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:00:33

       ... or somebody who's not inclined to like nature especially-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       I'm glad you said that.

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:00:38

        ... and, and do it to them and see-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

        Yeah.

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:00:40

        ... if it changes their attitudes, 'cause I think we may be having people on the same side of the culture e- having reinforcing experiences. But I don't know, and it's something I would love to see research done on.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

        That would be a great thing to do as a therapy for someone who has d-... Like maybe you, you've been a, a sexual harasser at work-

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:01:00

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

        ... and they make you go to some place and have a psychedelic experience to realize the error of your ways.

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:01:07

        It'd be much gentler than the chemical castration they used to talk about. (laughs)

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

        Well, w- we don't have to go that far. But I mean, you know, just w- well i- i- maybe that's even a bad example. But so- maybe someone who's been accused of fraud or maybe-

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:01:19

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

        ... someone who's embezzling money or maybe someone who's done something l- really unethical and you can pull-

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:01:24

        Or-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

        ... them aside and say, "Listen, this is-"

    22. MPMichael Pollan1:01:25

        Here's the choice.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

        "... harming you."

    24. MPMichael Pollan1:01:27

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

        "And you don't even realize it's harming you. You think you're getting away with these things, and, and having these psychedelic experiences maybe..." 'Cause that's one of the more confusing but illuminating things that you do learn from psychedelics is that things that you've done to other people have also harmed you-

    26. MPMichael Pollan1:01:46

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:47

        ... and, and you don't think about it until you're forced into reflection.

    28. MPMichael Pollan1:01:51

        Right.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

        And one of the things is ab- about psychedelics is the ruthlessly introspective nature of some of the journeys that you go on, where y- you really are forced to look at yourself and your actions and, and r- and come to, come to Jesus with it.

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:02:07

        Yeah.
13. 1:03:20 – 1:09:20

    Saving peyote & choosing San Pedro: conservation, legality, and mescaline prep

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:03:20

       Which is why... And just one point on that too. I, I, I would hate if my discussion of peyote and Native Americans started a fad for using peyote.... there's just not enough peyote. And, uh-

    2. NANarrator1:03:31

       Really?

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:03:32

       Yeah. No, there, it's in- it's in very short supply. The peyote lands, uh, you know, there's ranching on it. They're building windmills. There's, uh, poaching that's going on. And, um, and you asked me earlier whether I-

    4. NANarrator1:03:45

       Poaching of-

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:03:46

       Of peyote.

    6. NANarrator1:03:47

       ... San Pedro cactus?

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:03:47

       Of peyote of people going... Yeah. No, not San Pedro. Peyote, peyote cactus.

    8. NANarrator1:03:50

       What does it d- what does the San Pedro grow?

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:03:52

       I'll talk about-

    10. NANarrator1:03:53

        Oh.

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:03:53

        ... I'll talk about that in a second. It's a different cactus that's not endangered at all.

    12. NANarrator1:03:56

        Is that... Do you get mescaline from that?

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:03:58

        Yes.

    14. NANarrator1:03:58

        Okay, so mescaline-

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:03:59

        So there's another way, if you're interested. And w- and I'll talk about that, but-

    16. NANarrator1:04:02

        But mescaline and peyote are really similar, right?

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:04:05

        So mescaline is the chemical produced both by peyote and San Pedro.

    18. NANarrator1:04:10

        Oh, okay.

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:04:10

        Okay? So they're two very different cacti that happen to produce the same alkaloid, which is called mescaline. So there is a, a big effort underway in the Native American community to save peyote. It, it's a conservation movement. Um, it's something called the Indigenous Peyote Conservation Initiative, IPCI, and they really deserve our support. And they're trying to buy up these ranch lands so that the Native Americans can pilgrimage down there, pick their own peyote. There's a very safe way to cut it to, to harvest it where it will regenerate, and there's another way that's often used where it doesn't regenerate. And it takes 15 years from seed to button, usable button.

    20. NANarrator1:04:48

        Wow.

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:04:49

        So cultivating it is, uh, is a challenge. And, and Indians don't believe that cultivated peyote is the same or as good as wild-grown peyote. So, um, I finally decided after interviewing quite a few Native Americans that I shouldn't use it and that non-Natives should stay away from peyote, um, because we've taken so much, you know, from Native Americans. And this is a tool that's been really helpful to them in healing theirs- in their cultures, and there are other ways to get mescaline. Um, so, um, so I decided, you know, that would be, uh, that would be my s- tiny contribution is not using it.

    22. NANarrator1:05:31

        Is there an effort to reintroduce it in terms of, like, to plant it places and-

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:05:36

        Part of this initiative is that they're starting peyote in nurseries and then planting it in the wild.

    24. NANarrator1:05:42

        Mm-hmm.

    25. MPMichael Pollan1:05:43

        And we'll see how that works. Um, it's a, it's a pokey... I grew it in my garden for a while. Um, it is the pokiest plant.

    26. NANarrator1:05:50

        Yeah?

    27. MPMichael Pollan1:05:50

        It just doesn't do anything. It just sits there, and it's very slow-growing. It looks like a stone. It's very low to the ground. It's quite beautiful. Um-

    28. NANarrator1:05:58

        Can you pull up-

    29. MPMichael Pollan1:05:58

        Yeah.

    30. NANarrator1:05:58

        I don't think I know what it looks like. I know what the San Pedro looks like.
14. 1:09:20 – 1:12:24

    Mescaline as the ‘orphan psychedelic’: long duration and a grounded, lucid trip

    1. MPMichael Pollan1:09:20

       So I did. I used synthetic mescaline, and, uh, for the, for writing this book in the name of research, um, with, uh... And I also used San Pedro. Mescaline-... I got interested in mescaline in part because everybody I knew in the psychedelic community, I would ... When I was researching How to Change Your Mind, I'd say, "So what's your favorite psychedelic?" And I was so surprised to hear how many people said, "Mescaline," because it's not around. Nobody's doing research with it. It's like, "What happened to mescaline?" It's like the orphan psychedelic.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:09:51

       (laughs)

    3. MPMichael Pollan1:09:51

       So I wanted to figure out what that was all about. And there are a couple reasons. Um, a big problem with it is it takes about 14 hours. (laughs)

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:00

       Oh, wow.

    5. MPMichael Pollan1:10:00

       And you're done with mescaline before mescaline is done with you.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:04

       (laughs)

    7. MPMichael Pollan1:10:05

       And so I just remember at the end of this very long day, I was like, "I just wanna have some dinner and go to bed," but, I ... it wasn't happening. Um-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:12

       Wow.

    9. MPMichael Pollan1:10:13

       So it was, um ... For me, it was like 12 hours.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:10:16

        And what was the experience like? What did-

    11. MPMichael Pollan1:10:18

        So it was a really interesting experience. There were not, uh, hallucinations. Um, and in the same way psy- some psychedelics take you out of yourself and out of this world to another world, this one immersed you more deeply in the world in front of you than you ever have been before, so that you get completely absorbed in material life. And you could spend an hour thinking about this cup or looking at a flower, or Huxley famously ... Aldous Huxley, you know, stared at the folds of his trousers for an hour-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:10:52

        (laughs)

    13. MPMichael Pollan1:10:52

        ... and, like, had all these revelations. It's, it's about the here and now, this intense experience of the present moment that's like nothing I'd ever had, and it's almost overwhelming. There's this sense of the immensity of existence, and like, there's like, oh my god, stuff, existence. And, um ... But a lot of it is just very contemplative. You're very lucid. It's fairly gentle. I didn't have any gastrointestinal upset or anything. Um, I had periods at the peak where I felt a little out of control mentally. Uh, I remember trying to meditate to calm down, and whoever was meditating was someone else, and someone else was in my mind meditating.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:11:35

        (laughs)

    15. MPMichael Pollan1:11:35

        I was like, "That's not working." (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:11:36

        (laughs) In what way?

    17. MPMichael Pollan1:11:39

        I, I just closed my eyes, and I was this, like, South American woman, peasant woman meditating. It was like-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:45

        Wow.

    19. MPMichael Pollan1:11:45

        ... "Where did she come from?" You know. It was the re- you know, I had been doing research on San Pedro, and it's a, it's a South American, um, cactus from Peru, and it was this Peruvian woman who just showed up. (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:11:56

        Do you think that was just, uh, like, y- you had this idea of who used it and that was imprinted in your memories? And-

    21. MPMichael Pollan1:12:03

        I'm guessing. Yeah. I'm guessing that, um, I had an association of mescaline with the ... I, I had been interviewing people in Peru who used it ceremonially, and I had this image of this woman. And I work with this, uh, healer who works with, um, San Pedro, and she was kinda cut into that image too.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:12:22

        Hmm.

    23. MPMichael Pollan1:12:22

        There's a little bit of her too. Um-

15. 1:12:24 – 1:25:36

    DMT entities, ‘surrender’ as a skill, and competing theories of consciousness

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:12:24

       You know, McKenna had a really weird idea about psychedelic experiences, that, um, w- we wa- we always wanna think of each individual psychedelic experience we have as being our experience.

    2. MPMichael Pollan1:12:36

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:12:36

       But he believed that there was a database connected to each entheogen. And so each one of these substances, you weren't just experiencing it. You were experiencing-

    4. MPMichael Pollan1:12:46

       Plugging in.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:12:46

       ... the trips of millions-

    6. MPMichael Pollan1:12:48

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:48

       ... of people over thousands of years.

    8. MPMichael Pollan1:12:50

       It's like Carl Jung's idea of collective unconscious, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:53

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MPMichael Pollan1:12:53

        That there's this imagery that is now hardwired in our bodies.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:56

        Yeah.

    12. MPMichael Pollan1:12:57

        And that, and that's why cultures produce art that has all these kind of recurring motifs. Well, we know the DMT story, right? With, uh, the, you know, machine elves and the various ... You know?

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:13:06

        Hmm.

    14. MPMichael Pollan1:13:07

        A lot of people have the same imagery on that drug.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:13:10

        Right.

    16. MPMichael Pollan1:13:10

        Now, whether that, whether Terence McKenna started that, 'cause that was a meme he introduced to the culture, you'd have to find some innocent culture and see if they have the same experience, that had never heard about that idea.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:13:21

        I did not have machine elves in my conscience, but I did hear literally in l- uh, not, not even hearing it, like when you, you ... they would say things to you. But one of the things they said was, "Do not give in to astonishment."

    18. MPMichael Pollan1:13:37

        Hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:37

        Which was exactly what McKenna used to always say, "Do not give in to astonishment." And then the other thing was, "I love you." There would be-

    20. MPMichael Pollan1:13:46

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:46

        But like a child. Like, "I love you 600 million 500,000 times."

    22. MPMichael Pollan1:13:51

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:51

        They would say it in this crazy way, and then they would go, "Look at this," and, "Look at this." And every time they would go, "Look at this," they'd show you something more spectacular than you had seen before. Like, every time the visuals-

    24. MPMichael Pollan1:14:02

        Wow.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:14:02

        Like, you would think these visuals are impossible to pass.

    26. MPMichael Pollan1:14:05

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:14:05

        And they would go, "Look at this."

    28. MPMichael Pollan1:14:06

        (laughs)

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:14:07

        And it would be even more insane.

    30. MPMichael Pollan1:14:08

        Now, why not give in to astonishment? What's the idea behind that?

Episode duration: 2:44:30