Joe Rogan Experience #1683 - Andrew Huberman

Andrew Huberman 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Andrew Huberman 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

Joe Rogan 0:14 Are we rolling? Oh, there we go. We're rolling now. Yeah, well, anyway, um, I'm just a giant fan of CBD. I use it constantly.

Andrew Huberman 0:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:21 I use it for, uh, like I use, uh, the roll-ons for muscle aches.

Andrew Huberman 0:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:26 And I use, uh, gummies, and, and cbdMD is one of my sponsors, but this, uh, Killkliff company, this is, uh, uh, this is actually, uh, a drink that I designed.

Andrew Huberman 0:35 It tastes really good.

Joe Rogan 0:36 Thank you.

Andrew Huberman 0:37 I like it.

Joe Rogan 0:38 Thank you.

Andrew Huberman 0:38 Yeah, so many of the questions w- I get are about anxiety, people are like, "How do I control my anxiety-"

Joe Rogan 0:41 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 0:41 ... if people are stressed. So the CBD is supposed to help with that.

Joe Rogan 0:45 It's supposed to help with that, and I think it does a little bit. Uh, y- one of the things that I've found is, uh, CBD with THC, uh, it- it alleviates even more.

Andrew Huberman 0:54 I can imagine.

Joe Rogan 0:54 Like, you add a little THC to it-

Andrew Huberman 0:56 Yeah, I can imagine-

Joe Rogan 0:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 0:56 ... the THC probably takes the edge off.

Joe Rogan 0:58 But it's also a balancing act. You know, the problem, like, I used to get, uh, CBD with THC from a local company in LA, and they were so inconsistent, in that, like, I'd, uh, I'd take, like, I had a thing, I'd do, like, three droplets. I'm like, "Okay, I got three droppers full," and then one day, I did three droppers, and I was on the fucking moon. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:17 (claps hands)

Joe Rogan 1:17 I was like, "What are you, what have you people done?"

Andrew Huberman 1:20 Street-side chemistry.

Joe Rogan 1:21 Yeah, they're all-

Andrew Huberman 1:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22 ... bathtub chemists.

Andrew Huberman 1:23 Well, that's the thing, the, um, I think with supplements, they're so poorly regulated.

Joe Rogan 1:28 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:28 I'm not pushing for regulation. The last thing we need is regulation on it, but it's like melatonin. I was talking to Matt Walker-

Joe Rogan 1:34 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:34 ... about this, who I, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:35 Mm-hmm. Sure.

Andrew Huberman 1:35 ... our friend Matt, amazing sleep scientist, and turns out that the amount of melatonin, if it's listed, like, three milligrams or six milligrams, it can vary anywhere from being 15 per- 15% of what's actually listed on the bottle to 85% more. And if you look at how much melatonin is actually made by the pineal gland, it's a tiny fraction of the three milligrams it's supposed to be, so melatonin, it's all over the place.

Joe Rogan 2:01 Does that mess you up if you, if you take melatonin, does your body say, "Well, I don't need any melatonin. I don't need to make it"?

Andrew Huberman 2:08 It, it might. The bigger pro- I never suggest melatonin for sleep for a couple reasons. One is the reason kids don't go into puberty until a certain age is 'cause they have chronically high melatonin.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Really?

Andrew Huberman 2:20 Melatonin suppresses puberty.

Joe Rogan 2:23 So does it suppress your endocrine system?

Andrew Huberman 2:25 So in humans, it's probably not as dramatic as it is in animals that are seasonal breeders, but long ago, when I was a graduate student at Berkeley, we would do these experiments on these little what are called Siberian hamsters, these little hamsters.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 2:37 And these hamsters only breed in long days, because light basically suppresses melatonin, okay?

Joe Rogan 2:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 2:44 So in short days, long nights, seasonal breeding animals shut down breeding, right? Humans can breed all year long-

Joe Rogan 2:51 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 2:51 ... of course, but if you give melatonin to a male Siberian hamster, its testes go from the size of standard marbles to the size of a grain of rice within a week.

Joe Rogan 3:02 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 3:02 And the females, their ovaries involute. They basically turn into, like, little shriveled not even raisins, but little specks. So when I hear about people taking a lot of melatonin, and you've got this whole issue with falling testosterone, dysregulated estrogen in men and women, um, I just think it's not the best sleep aid. The other thing, and Matt and I have talked about this a lot recently, just we've been hanging out and t- chatting about science, or as, as he would say, "Splashing around in the s- science of sleep," as you know-

Joe Rogan 3:27 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 3:27 ... he's a Brit after all. Um, the problem with melatonin is it will help you fall asleep, but it won't help you stay asleep. And so some people have this problem, they take melatonin, they fall asleep, and then they wake up three or four hours later.

Joe Rogan 3:38 'Cause it wears off?

Andrew Huberman 3:39 Yeah, there are much better things for sleep, much-

Joe Rogan 3:41 What, what do you choose for sleep?

Andrew Huberman 3:43 Yeah, my favorite sleep cocktail based on really good, solid peer-reviewed science is magnesium threonate, it's T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E, threonate, and something called apigenin, A-P-I-G-E-N-I-N, which is basically a derivative of chamomile.

Joe Rogan 4:00 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 4:00 Those two things work really well to... They essentially shut down the forebrain thinking anticipating part of your brain, allow you to drift off into sleep really well.

Joe Rogan 4:08 Oh, I need that all day then-

Andrew Huberman 4:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:10 ... if it, if you could shut that down.

Andrew Huberman 4:11 Yeah, well, and then theanine is also the, is the third thing in the cocktail.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Thea- isn't theanine, uh, that is also a nootropic.

Andrew Huberman 4:18 So theanine, um, also turns on what's called the GABA system. It's like an inhibitory neurotransmitter, and it helps suppress anxiety and kind of turn off thinking. It helps you make the transition into sleep. Yeah, so it's magnesium threonate.

Joe Rogan 4:30 I'm gonna write all this stuff down-

Andrew Huberman 4:30 Sure thing.

Joe Rogan 4:31 ... 'cause I think I do need this.

Andrew Huberman 4:32 Yeah, and sleep is obviously-

Joe Rogan 4:34 I sleep pretty good, but it's always-

Andrew Huberman 4:36 Uh, these are a game changer.

Joe Rogan 4:37 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 4:37 I'll be amazed if it doesn't help. So it's magnesium threonate, T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E, and that's important because there are a lot of T-H-

Joe Rogan 4:48 T-H-R...

Andrew Huberman 4:49 ... R- T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E, E-O-N-A, threonate.

Joe Rogan 4:53 He's got it right there.

Andrew Huberman 4:54 There it is. Um-

Joe Rogan 4:54 Young Jamie on the ball-

Andrew Huberman 4:55 And if-

Joe Rogan 4:56 ... as always.

Andrew Huberman 4:56 ... and basically, you know, people will probably wanna know about source. In this case, you just go for price, right? I mean, go for... If you have a favorite brand, go for that, but go for price. You know? So, um, magnesium threonate can cross the blood-brain barrier, 'cause when you take magnesium, it goes into your gut.

Joe Rogan 5:12 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 5:13 Doesn't necessarily get into your brain. You've got a barrier around your brain that prevents certain things from getting in 'cause this tissue doesn't regenerate.

Joe Rogan 5:19 Right.

Andrew Huberman 5:19 Right? So the threonate form has a, gets brought across the blood-brain barrier by a transporter. Other forms like magnesium malate, magnesium citrate, those are good for other things. Magnesium malate's great for muscle soreness. Magnesium citrate's a great laxative. But (laughs) uh, magnesium threonate is gonna be the one that's gonna allow you to drift into sleep better.

Joe Rogan 5:40 And, you know, it's interesting that you're saying this because, uh, one of the things that I've found that relaxes me more than anything is, uh, Epsom salts.

Andrew Huberman 5:47 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:48 You know, um-... I'm a big proponent of the isolation tank, and the sensory deprivation tank-

Andrew Huberman 5:53 Oh, those are great.

Joe Rogan 5:53 ... is all filled with magnesium. It's all filled with, with, uh, Epsom salts.

Andrew Huberman 5:57 And it can go transdermal.

Joe Rogan 5:58 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 5:59 So, that's a really unusual situation where if you, you know, you get... And there are some magnesium creams and things like that.

Joe Rogan 6:04 But you're not gonna get it in the kind of volume that you get it when you lie in it like that. And when you're doing that, what n- what magnesium is that?

Andrew Huberman 6:12 So, that's usually a f- a magnesium biglycinate.

Joe Rogan 6:15 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 6:15 Which is another one of these forms of magnesium that can get transported into the brain really easily. And most people, actually, are magnesium deficient. I think, um-

Joe Rogan 6:24 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 6:24 ... m- most people could, would do well by increasing their magnesium intake.

Joe Rogan 6:28 I supplement, but I think I supplement with citrate.

Andrew Huberman 6:31 Yeah, so citrate has its value. Malate, again, f- is good for muscle soreness. But threonate, what you wanna take is about 300 to 400 milligrams.

Joe Rogan 6:39 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 6:39 But what you'll notice is on the bottle, it'll say "elemental magnesium" and then magnes- will be 300 to 400-

Joe Rogan 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 6:45 ... and then it'll say "equals 1,000 milligrams." Basically just go for 300 to 400 milligrams and y- you're good. And then the other thing is apigenin, A-P-I-G-E-N-I-N. And this stuff is terrific. It basically, that's the only source I'm aware of is, is Swanson.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Oh, this is like a cocktail.

Andrew Huberman 7:02 Yeah. And I should be very clear that, uh, maybe 'cause I've been blabbing about this.

Joe Rogan 7:06 How is this, uh, this cocktail put together? Did you just put this together?

Andrew Huberman 7:09 No.

Joe Rogan 7:10 It's frequently bought together.

Andrew Huberman 7:10 So, I wanna be really clear. I have no relationship to these brands or anything-

Joe Rogan 7:13 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 7:14 ... there. Um, I've been blabbing about this on my podcast.

Joe Rogan 7:17 Oh, that's why.

Andrew Huberman 7:17 And so someone is clearly gonna, making money out of the Amazon partnership thing or whatever, that's why they put it. But those are the three things.

Joe Rogan 7:24 Well, I bet a bunch of people just started buying it together.

Andrew Huberman 7:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:26 'Cause it's just, this is just frequently bought together.

Andrew Huberman 7:28 Right. So, those are the three that I recommend. And then L-threon- and so for apigenin, it's 50 milligrams. Women see the prostate health thing and they freak out.

Joe Rogan 7:37 50?

Andrew Huberman 7:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:37 Oh, women see prostate health thing and they freak out?

Andrew Huberman 7:39 Well, they think, "Oh, is it testosterone in a bottle?"

Joe Rogan 7:41 Oh, for guys, right.

Andrew Huberman 7:42 Yeah. Whereas all the, the, the gym rats are like, "Testosterone in a bottle?"

Joe Rogan 7:45 Yeah, they get excited. Yeah, fuck yeah, bro.

Andrew Huberman 7:46 Um, so apigenin turns on a chloride channel. The, the way neurons work is you got stuff going in and out of them, and the chloride channel tends to turn off neurons a little bit in a good way, and creates a, um, a kind of a s- a little sedative role, uh, it kinda helps you drift off into sleep. And it's the same stuff that's in chamomile tea.

Joe Rogan 8:06 So, this has no negative, uh, side effects for women?

Andrew Huberman 8:09 Not that I'm aware of.

Joe Rogan 8:10 Uh-oh. I hate that term. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 8:11 Well, you know, okay, i- uh, so I know a number of people, including women, that use it and are fine, are still fertile, you know.

Joe Rogan 8:19 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 8:19 I don't know, I mean, I haven't tested their, their fertility personally, but I-

Joe Rogan 8:22 What is the idea of i- the, what the benefits for prostate health?

Andrew Huberman 8:26 So, it does seem to have a small amount of estrogen antagonism. It can block-

Joe Rogan 8:31 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 8:32 ... estrogen receptors a little bit, but it's a very weak affinity.

Joe Rogan 8:35 Maybe it'd calm some ladies down. (laughs) I said that.

Andrew Huberman 8:39 We could talk, we could talk-

Joe Rogan 8:39 Not, not Mr. Huberman.

Andrew Huberman 8:40 Uh, thank you. Well-

Joe Rogan 8:41 Just a joke, ladies.

Andrew Huberman 8:42 Years ago-

Joe Rogan 8:43 Stop screaming.

Andrew Huberman 8:44 (laughs) Years ago, I worked on hormones and development. We could, we could go there, hormone effects on the brain. Uh, that was my master's thesis. But the, um, but theanine, T-H-E-A, uh, A-I-N, uh, N-E, is, also has a little bit of an anxiolytic, an anti-anxiety effect.

Joe Rogan 9:00 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 9:00 And there is, uh, something to think about with theanine. People now put theanine in energy drinks so that people will drink more energy drinks and not get the jitters.

Joe Rogan 9:08 Interesting.

Andrew Huberman 9:08 And so it's, uh, it's showing up... I recommend taking these 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.

Joe Rogan 9:14 And what do you recommend for a dose for theanine?

Andrew Huberman 9:16 For theanine, it's gonna be 100 to 400 milligrams. However, if you're a sleepwalker or you have what are called night terrors where you have really disturbing dreams, leave the theanine out.

Joe Rogan 9:26 Oh, boy.

Andrew Huberman 9:26 Because the dreams on theanine are, are intense.

Joe Rogan 9:29 Really?

Andrew Huberman 9:29 I like them.

Joe Rogan 9:30 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 9:30 But it's intense. But I'm into dreaming. I think dreaming is a really interesting brain state.

Joe Rogan 9:33 I think theanine is in, uh, that NeuroGum, isn't it, young Jamie?

Narrator 9:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:41 I think it's in there.

Narrator 9:42 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 9:43 They're putting it in everything now. The one thing about magnesium threonate I should mention is that there are some data, not a ton, that it's also neuroprotective. So, there's at least one study, peer-reviewed, independent, you know, not a, not a company paying for the study but done by a laboratory with no bias, that shows that magnesium threonate can offset some forms of age-related cognitive decline. So, that's-

Joe Rogan 10:05 Interesting.

Andrew Huberman 10:05 ... also, that's, that's another reason to, you know, explore.

Joe Rogan 10:06 So, the cocktail of the three of them-

Andrew Huberman 10:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 ... the reason for putting the three of them together?

Andrew Huberman 10:12 There seems to be some sort of synergistic effect because some people, of course, will, will take something for a long period of time and then it'll stop working. You can take these, they're not habit-forming. I mean, I've taken them consistently and then taken breaks and then go back on them, and they really, uh, in most cases, I mean, I guess if someone had a heart condition, a serious heart condition, any time you mess with magnesium, 'cause you have neurons in your heart and your m- magnesium's involved in neuron function, y- y- obviously the usual things, check with your doctor, you know.

Joe Rogan 10:40 Right.

Andrew Huberman 10:40 And obviously I'm not a doctor, I'm a professor so I profess things, I'm not prescribing anything. But, uh, it's helped a tremendous number of people get into sleep better and stay asleep.

Joe Rogan 10:49 Interesting.

Andrew Huberman 10:50 And, and I, I think Walker would, would generally agree. I can't speak for him. He's really into all this new, like, I don't wanna take it, away with his next kind of... He's planning some really amazing public education stuff. I've pulled him into the mix.

Joe Rogan 11:02 He freaked a lot of people out on my podcast.

Andrew Huberman 11:04 Well, he scared people a bit, you mean.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 11:06 So, we talked about that. I mean, like, I think, uh, first of all, that was a, an important podcast. It just wa- it wasn't just a brilliant podcast, it was important because people were ignoring sleep. We heard Be a Hard- go hard driving, hard driving-

Joe Rogan 11:18 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 11:18 ... hard driving. And it's very important that people understand that the fundamental layer of health, mental health and physical health, is regular quality sleep. So, he scared people appropriately, I think. And now he's shifting to, how can you get better at sleeping?

Joe Rogan 11:32 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 11:32 And we're g- joining forces in that mission, but I wanna be really clear, he's doing it on his own too. He's got... I don't wanna give away what he's got planned, but basically he, uh, so Matt, David Sinclair, me, you know, and Lex, all the nerds, we're, we're kind of like-... we're trying to get out there with the scientific information and help people. And so Matt's got some really terrific sleep science and actionable sleep tool plans for the world.

Joe Rogan 11:54 Well-

Andrew Huberman 11:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:54 ... when is he gonna do that? I would h- love to have him back on when he's ready to launch that.

Andrew Huberman 11:57 Okay, Matt, I'm gonna out you now. So, um-

Joe Rogan 12:00 Uh-oh.

Andrew Huberman 12:00 Yeah. So he and I, uh, had a discussion recently. He is talking about doing a brief weekly podcast on sleep health-

Joe Rogan 12:09 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 12:09 ... s- launching sometime in August or September.

Joe Rogan 12:12 Oh, great.

Andrew Huberman 12:12 Which I just think is gonna help so many people.

Joe Rogan 12:15 Sure. And brief would make it nice because it's easy to digest.

Andrew Huberman 12:17 Yeah, I still haven't learned the brief thing.

Joe Rogan 12:19 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 12:20 I'm not well known for being concise, you know.

Joe Rogan 12:21 Well, you're talking to me, man.

Andrew Huberman 12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:23 I can't shut the fuck up.

Andrew Huberman 12:24 Well, I always say I have kind of a, uh, scientific Tourette's.

Joe Rogan 12:27 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 12:28 It's like some people with Tourette's, they shout (laughs) you know, they shout out, like, expletives, like I'm shouting out scientific information. I can't help it.

Joe Rogan 12:33 Well, that's great. It just means you love what you do.

Andrew Huberman 12:36 I do. I can't help myself.

Joe Rogan 12:37 Now, um, theanine, using theanine to help sleep, it seems so strange to me that it would also be a nootropic, that it also be something that enhances brain function 'cause it kinda... I take, um... Alpha Brain just released it today, Alpha Brain b- uh, Alpha Brain Black Label, the strongest version of Alpha Brain, which I've been, uh, testing over the last six months, actually more. So-

Andrew Huberman 13:02 Is it Alpha GPC at high dose?

Joe Rogan 13:04 No, I'll tell you what exactly. You know, we, we had our original Alpha Brain, uh, from Onnit, and then there's an ad for it that they just put out today. Um, there's a, a new version of Alpha Brain that's been really beneficial to me. It's just for me, like, you know, we did some double blind placebo-controlled studies at the Boston Center for Memory when we first released Alpha Brain.

Andrew Huberman 13:25 Yeah, I could go through these.

Joe Rogan 13:25 So what do you think about this stuff here?

Andrew Huberman 13:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 13:27 So it's got theanine in it.

Andrew Huberman 13:29 Yup. So the, the theanine is gonna take down some of the stimulant effect of the caffeine and kind of... You know, the best way to work, the best nootropic is something that's gonna put you in alert, but calm.

Joe Rogan 13:39 Right.

Andrew Huberman 13:39 Right? You don't wanna be super jazzed.

Joe Rogan 13:41 You don't wanna be on amphetamines.

Andrew Huberman 13:42 No. I mean, if you're on them, you think you wanna be on them.

Joe Rogan 13:45 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 13:45 But you, you don't wanna be on them. Uh, so the, the theanine is gonna take the edge off. The caffeine anhydrous is the right form of caffeine. You, you guys have good people, um, uh, working on this. Um, the phosphatidylserine is gonna be... it's gonna actually be a little bit of a, uh, a reduction of cortisol, which is good. Most people are riding high on cortisol in not a good way. You want cortisol each day and we can talk about how to time it, but you wanna time that peak in the right way. The acetylcholine is, is going to increase acetylcholine, which is involved in the brain's ability to focus, to create that tunnel of attention-

Joe Rogan 14:18 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 14:18 ... which is critical, right? I mean, you can't be all over the place. And the Lutemax 2020, I don't know, that looks like a proprietary blend. Let's see, um, marigold, carotenoids. Oh, lutein, that's gonna be good for... So that-

Joe Rogan 14:31 Vision.

Andrew Huberman 14:31 ... those, those are gonna be good for eye health. And actually I looked into it based on our last discussion.

Joe Rogan 14:35 Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman 14:36 So for moderate to advanced macular degeneration, the data on lutein are good. It supports healthier vision.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Yeah, I take lutein every day now.

Andrew Huberman 14:44 I spoke to my chairman of ophthalmology at Stanford, asked him, "What's the story on lutein?" He said, "For moderate to s- to severe macular degeneration, it, there, there seems to be a, a positive effect there. For people that have mild or early forms of macular degeneration, the data aren't there yet." And I said, "But is it reasonable to consider taking it as a preventative?" And he was like, "Yeah, I think that's a reasonable thing to do."

Joe Rogan 15:05 Whatever has happened with me over the last year or so, uh, my vision has stopped decr- uh, deteriorating.

Andrew Huberman 15:12 That's great.

Joe Rogan 15:13 Yeah. It's-

Andrew Huberman 15:14 I, I have another theory.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 15:15 Which is you're living in Texas now, no joke, and because... This isn't a joke. Um, because you're living in Texas, you're actually getting longer vista views. You're looking at things at a distance more often.

Joe Rogan 15:26 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:26 I'm guessing. I don't know your home environment or your lifestyle terribly much, but, at all, really, but, um, we know that long distance viewing and getting outside into sunlight can offset macular degeneration and myopia, nearsightedness.

Joe Rogan 15:40 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 15:40 There's a, a huge, meaning thousands of subjects, study that was done in the US, also overseas, so their multiple site clinical trial, showing that if children get outside for two hours a day, even if they're on their phones, I hate to say it, but even if they're on their phones and they're reading and doing their thing, they don't develop nearsightedness. And just being outside in natural light seems to help offset vision loss. And the reason is that the... when you look at things up close, the eyeball actually lengthens. And because there's a lens there, the light gets focused in front of the retina, not on the retina, which is what you need in order to pass that information to the brain, so that when you put on eyeglasses, you're basically giving it another lens to focus it to the right place. When you look at things at a distance, you a- you use the musculature of the eye in a process called accommodation. People can look it up. We don't have to get into the details. That lens becomes and, and remains bendy. The lens in your eye bends. It actually squishes and bends.

Joe Rogan 16:37 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 16:37 It's not like a standard rigid lens. And so looking at things in the distance, getting natural light, actually blue light is good for us in this sense during the daytime, improves eye health, it reduces myopia and nearsightedness, and can offset the progression of age-related macular degeneration. Now, people shouldn't be blasting themselves with b- bright light 'cause that can cause other issues, but if... as long as the light isn't painful to look at, you're in, you're in safe territory.

Joe Rogan 17:02 So if someone, um, is experiencing the beginning of macular degeneration, do you recommend going somewhere where you could see long distances and just concentrate on just... How often would/should you do something like that?

Andrew Huberman 17:13 For every 30 minutes of looking at a screen or a phone, you should look off into the distance for about five minutes.

Joe Rogan 17:18 Really?

Andrew Huberman 17:19 Now, that doesn't mean you have to do the 1,000-mile stare. Just get outside and-

Joe Rogan 17:22 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:22 I mean, we w- I hate that we weren't designed 'cause I wasn't consulted at the design phase and no one I know was either-

Joe Rogan 17:27 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 17:27 ... so I... but we, we evolved from lifestyles of looking at things up close and far away. And we're just spending a ton of time now looking at things up close, and the visual system and the brain will adapt to that.

Joe Rogan 17:39 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 17:39 So kids that grow up only looking at computers and screens and don't go outside, they require, like, Coke bottle thick glasses.

Joe Rogan 17:44 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:45 The, the nerd thing, like, that nerds wear glasses, part of that is because nerds spend a lot of time reading.

Joe Rogan 17:50 Right.

Andrew Huberman 17:50 So, it's-

Joe Rogan 17:52 It's real.

Andrew Huberman 17:52 ... it's a real thing. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:53 Yeah. It's not just that they have glasses so th- they become nerds-

Andrew Huberman 17:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:57 ... 'cause people pick on them.

Andrew Huberman 17:58 Right. Self-imposed-

Joe Rogan 18:00 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:00 ... ner- nerdiness, or I guess you'd call it. And you mentioned last time, I think, maybe it was offline, that you have a friend who's a, a hunter.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:06 Who's got great vision into his later years.

Joe Rogan 18:08 Yeah. That's my friend Cam Hanes. He's f- this motherfucker.

Andrew Huberman 18:10 Oh, the, the runner?

Joe Rogan 18:11 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:12 He sees perfectly.

Andrew Huberman 18:13 Yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 18:14 It's ridiculous.

Andrew Huberman 18:15 Yeah. How old is he?

Joe Rogan 18:15 He's my age, that fuck. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 18:18 I've s- I see his, his running videos. It, it's impressive.

Joe Rogan 18:20 He's a freak.

Andrew Huberman 18:21 Well, him-

Joe Rogan 18:21 He's a mutant.

Andrew Huberman 18:22 ... David running and the whole thing.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Yeah. They're both mutants.

Andrew Huberman 18:24 Yeah, they... That's right.

Joe Rogan 18:25 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:25 They're mutants.

Joe Rogan 18:25 Like, legitimate mutants.

Andrew Huberman 18:26 They're mutants.

Joe Rogan 18:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:27 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 18:28 I don't understand how his joints are holding up. That's what's driving me crazy.

Andrew Huberman 18:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:32 Like, my knees, I'm getting stem cells shot into 'em-

Andrew Huberman 18:34 You do the PRP, the whole thing.

Joe Rogan 18:35 I do all kinds of shit. I'm just trying to keep 'em active. I think running, I guess, has gotta be different than kicking things. Kicking things and d- and, and jujitsu are very hard on the knees.

Andrew Huberman 18:46 Yeah. I've been-

Joe Rogan 18:47 It's very hard.

Andrew Huberman 18:47 I think it was 'cause, maybe Jamie mentioned it, or you mentioned, the Kneesovertoesguy?

Joe Rogan 18:51 Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 18:52 I'll tell you why I love this guy.

Joe Rogan 18:53 He's amazing.

Andrew Huberman 18:54 I don't know him, but I'll tell you why I love him. I have always had an anterior tib machine in my gym.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Ah.

Andrew Huberman 19:00 Because... And I didn't know why I needed this thing, but I knew I needed it. For the... I would get hip problems, and, like, a sciatica on one side. 'Cause I like lifting, I've been lifting since I was younger, and it just makes me happier, saner human being. And I noticed I would get this tweak on my right side, and then I started using the anterior tib machine, and it went away. Now, he could probably tell me why. It's got to be some ankle-

Joe Rogan 19:22 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 19:22 ... up to hip alignment. So, I bought one of those. And people always laugh, like, that in my, my home gym, I've got a tib machine, a glute ham raise. I got one of these Louie Simmons Reverse hypers.

Joe Rogan 19:31 Oh. Those are the best.

Andrew Huberman 19:31 Thanks to you, 'cause of last time you-

Joe Rogan 19:33 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:33 ... you gave me the tutorial.

Joe Rogan 19:34 How great is that machine?

Andrew Huberman 19:35 Amazing.

Joe Rogan 19:36 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 19:36 And my posture is better. It's still not perfect. I still, you know, I'm kinda, you know-

Joe Rogan 19:39 That thing saved my back.

Andrew Huberman 19:41 It's-

Joe Rogan 19:41 It really has.

Andrew Huberman 19:41 ... amazing.

Joe Rogan 19:42 'Cause I'm still doing stupid shit with my body, you know, at 54, almost. 54 next month.

Andrew Huberman 19:47 You seem very healthy.

Joe Rogan 19:48 Beating it up, though. And the, the Reverse Hyper has kept it strong enough so that I can be really active and still do things like jujitsu and kickboxing, and...

Andrew Huberman 19:57 When you look at measures of longevity, and, and of course Sinclair is the, is the ninja on all this, but how fast people st- are able to stand up. You know, some people, you say, "Okay, let's go," and they, like, "Ugh," it kind of-

Joe Rogan 20:09 Right.

Andrew Huberman 20:09 ... feels like a slow, low-gear movement that takes half an hour, you know, and then-

Joe Rogan 20:13 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 20:13 ... other people, they just pop up. The ability to jump. They're very well-correlated with health and wellbeing-

Joe Rogan 20:18 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 20:18 ... and the ability to, I think, as Sinclair says, you know, hip fractures are a big cause of d- you know, early death (laughs) . It sounds weird. You think it's a hip fracture. But then you're sedentary.

Joe Rogan 20:27 Right.

Andrew Huberman 20:27 Circulation slows down. Everything gets messed up. But Kneesovertoesguy is... I l- I love his stuff 'cause he's really pointing to the fact that this t- this muscle in the shin, right-

Joe Rogan 20:37 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 20:37 ... is so vital for knee health, and for me, it's really helped with the, the lower, the lower back thing. And it's an odd thing to sit there and kind of point your toes, like ballerina exercises. But you feel stable when you run, so strong feet, strong shins. Anyway, seems to-

Joe Rogan 20:52 It's, it's really interesting when you realize how many of these things are connected to each other. Like, one of the things that I've found is that stretching your quadriceps also stretches your lower back.

Andrew Huberman 21:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:04 You know that stretch where you sit down on your heels and then you lean all the way back?

Andrew Huberman 21:09 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:09 You know, he's amazing, the Kneesovertoesguy.

Andrew Huberman 21:11 Oh, yeah. No, the stuff he does is-

Joe Rogan 21:12 'Cause he goes all the way back, and with no hands, comes up. I can't really do that. I can't go flat on my back and come back up. But I can go flat on my back, and when I do that, I feel a deep stretch in my lower back.

Andrew Huberman 21:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:22 And it makes me realize, like, "Oh, like, there's some tension in my thighs that's fucking with my lower back." Like, for me, stretching is so imperative. It's so important. Stretching and massage. And I went without... Well, I've, I've kind of always stretched at least a little bit. You know, like, maybe at least 10 minutes after, after training. But I've been doing a lot more. I've been giving myself a full 35 minutes after training to, just to stretch, but then massage every week. I've been doing that every week for the last month or so.

Andrew Huberman 21:52 Is it that deep tissue, like the-

Joe Rogan 21:54 Oh, my God, it's so painful. These ladies beat-

Andrew Huberman 21:55 The roll thing?

Joe Rogan 21:56 ... the shit out of me.

Andrew Huberman 21:56 The roll thing, the fascial thing?

Joe Rogan 21:57 Uh, uh, it's just deep tissue. It's just h- horrific deep tissue, painful massage. Like, when they do my thighs, I don't know what it is about... That guy.

Andrew Huberman 22:05 Ah, this guy.

Joe Rogan 22:05 That, that guy's a freak.

Andrew Huberman 22:06 This guy.

Joe Rogan 22:06 That's a freak. He's a freak. And he's-

Andrew Huberman 22:08 I think he's up in Sacramento or something. I don't know him, but-

Joe Rogan 22:10 One of the things that I really love about this guy is that he gives away all this information for free.

Andrew Huberman 22:15 Yes.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Like, all this stuff that he puts on his Instagram, this can benefit so many people. And his program is very intensive. If you go to the, you know, his, um... I think it's called the, uh, The Athletic Truth Group. Is that what it is? Um, but just go to Kneesovertoesguy on Instagram. He shows all these different exercises. That shit that he's doing in that one... That is so hard to do.

Andrew Huberman 22:36 Yeah, I think that's, like, a Jefferson Dem- Oh, with the toes pointed up.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yes. With the toes up w- at, at that angle like that, to be able to do that with a box and to drop a kettlebell down, he's going way below his toes. That's incredible flexibility.

Andrew Huberman 22:50 Yeah. I lo-... You know, I think, uh, somebody who is big on putting information out on the internet free-

Joe Rogan 22:56 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 22:56 ... free public education, I, I love what he's doing. I also think that... He's also can do all the things he's talking about doing-

Joe Rogan 23:03 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 23:03 ... dunking basketballs, and-

Joe Rogan 23:04 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 23:04 ... um...

Joe Rogan 23:04 And he's had multiple knee surgeries, too.

Andrew Huberman 23:07 Oh, yeah?

Joe Rogan 23:07 Yeah. Multiple knee surgeries. I believe he's actually had a, um, a cadaver meniscus graft.

Andrew Huberman 23:13 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 23:13 Which is crazy. That means his, his knees are fucked.

Andrew Huberman 23:16 He's got dead people in his knees.

Joe Rogan 23:17 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 23:17 He-

Joe Rogan 23:17 I've got dead people in one of my knees.

Andrew Huberman 23:19 Do you?

Joe Rogan 23:19 Yeah. Yeah. This knee, I got a cadaver ACL. It's actually not an ACL. They take the Achilles tendon, which is thicker and stronger, so it's 150% stronger than the original ACL, and then they replace it. And then the other one, I have a patella tendon graft ACL.

Andrew Huberman 23:33 Wow. Yeah, I mean, I, I agree w- completely with your statement. It's, it's all connected.

Joe Rogan 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 23:38 And the... You know, this is a... These days, I'm, I'm still a neuroscientist, obviously, thinking about the brain a lot, but the connections between the brain and body, and all the stuff going on in the body we now know impacts the brain. I mean, it's a, it's a whole system. And I think that, um...... maybe he was on here a few years ago. Kelly Starrett?

Joe Rogan 23:54 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 23:54 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:54 Yeah, he's awesome.

Andrew Huberman 23:55 Great- great guy. Um, and he always says, you know, if you injure a joint, you wanna work things above and below that joint, you know. And for years he's been telling me, you know, "I've got a, like a shoulder that sits and the sciatica thing." And he's like, "Well, train your neck, train your ankles, train your..." You know, it seems crazy-

Joe Rogan 24:11 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 24:11 ... why would I train my neck if my hip is off. But-

Joe Rogan 24:14 You know, Kelly just replaced his knee.

Andrew Huberman 24:16 Did he really? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:17 Yeah. He had a bad ski accident a couple years ago and really just mangled the inside of his knee. And he was doing his best to, uh, to try to repair it, you know, try to help, you know, keep it healthy-

Andrew Huberman 24:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:27 ... and it just wasn't working anymore. Couldn't squat-

Andrew Huberman 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:29 ... couldn't do a lot of things.

Andrew Huberman 24:30 He's a big guy.

Joe Rogan 24:31 He's a big guy.

Andrew Huberman 24:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:32 And he just had a knee replacement.

Andrew Huberman 24:33 Wow.

Joe Rogan 24:34 Yeah, resurfaced-

Andrew Huberman 24:35 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 24:35 ... his knees. But if you go to his page, um-

Andrew Huberman 24:38 What do they call it? Is it ready_state?

Joe Rogan 24:40 Yeah, the ready_state.

Andrew Huberman 24:41 Is that the-

Joe Rogan 24:41 The ready_state on Instagram. He's, uh, he had the knee resurfacing multiple months ago. I think it was, like, five or six months ago. And, um, he's already deadlifting, doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And apparently the way they do it now, if you go to a really good doctor, you know, there's obviously ... You wanna be real careful with something like this, because this is something that ... It's not necessarily really permanent, you know. If you beat it up, if ... 'Cause they're using different surfaces, different people are using different plastics and ceramics and different things to resurface the knee. But, uh, you know, he's able to do all kinds of wild shit that he couldn't do anymore.

Andrew Huberman 25:23 Yeah, he-

Joe Rogan 25:23 So for him, his, it was a, it was one of those choices that it's an unfortunate choice, but he had to make it. Michael Bisping, uh, UFC, former UFC middle weight champion, he actually just got both of his knees resurfaced.

Andrew Huberman 25:34 Wow.

Joe Rogan 25:35 Yeah, 'cause he's too fucking tough for his own good. He was, uh, running while his knees were just mangled-

Andrew Huberman 25:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:40 ... you know? So the inside of his knees, the cartilage was all shot and the meniscus was shot. 'Cause all the years of wrestling and kickboxing and all the fights that he's had. And so-

Andrew Huberman 25:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:49 ... he just got both of them resurfaced, and he's running again.

Andrew Huberman 25:51 Wow.

Joe Rogan 25:52 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 25:52 Yeah, martial arts seems really hard on the knees. I, I grew up, uh, skateboarding. I wasn't real close with him, but Danny Way, the guy that jumped the Great Wall of China and all that, he's has his knees replaced so many times. I need to get him into-

Joe Rogan 26:02 Really?

Andrew Huberman 26:02 Oh. And recently he's been posting some stuff. Um-

Joe Rogan 26:05 He's had his knees replaced more than once?

Andrew Huberman 26:06 Multiple times. And Danny, he put videos up on Instagram of them suctioning all the stuff out of the knee.

Joe Rogan 26:12 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 26:12 And he was doing some of this, uh, no anesthesia, just so you could-

Joe Rogan 26:16 What?

Andrew Huberman 26:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:16 Why?

Andrew Huberman 26:17 'Cause he's a, he's Evil Knievel.

Joe Rogan 26:19 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 26:19 You know, he's the-

Joe Rogan 26:20 But why is he doing that? (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 26:21 I think to put it ... I don't know. I don't know why he's doing it.

Joe Rogan 26:23 Why is he doing it with no anesthesia?

Andrew Huberman 26:24 I mean, when we were kids, he was, he was like that too.

Joe Rogan 26:27 Is this Rampage?

Andrew Huberman 26:27 You know, the-

Narrator 26:27 That's both of them. He's with Rampage I think at the doctor's office.

Joe Rogan 26:31 Oh my God.

Narrator 26:31 'Cause they need w- wheelchair assistance.

Andrew Huberman 26:33 Yeah, so they went down to Columbia, I think it was.

Joe Rogan 26:36 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 26:36 And were getting the p-

Joe Rogan 26:37 This is the bio-accelerator place.

Andrew Huberman 26:38 Yeah, they've been-

Joe Rogan 26:39 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 26:39 ... and burring inside of the knee joint. And, um ...

Joe Rogan 26:44 Damn.

Andrew Huberman 26:44 But Danny's my age, right? And I mean ... So what's interesting bas- w- recently there's a lot of discussion about broken ankles.

Joe Rogan 26:51 Uh-huh.

Andrew Huberman 26:51 So when Danny Way jumped the Great Wall of China s- I think it was 16 years ago recently, it was in July. When he did that ... That's one of those-

Joe Rogan 26:59 Deebo's there.

Narrator 27:01 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 27:01 When, when he jumped the Great Wall of China, he broke his ankle, legitimate break of the ankle the day before.

Joe Rogan 27:06 (sighs)

Andrew Huberman 27:07 And h- and then jumped it three times.

Joe Rogan 27:09 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 27:10 On a broken ankle. And I have validation on this 'cause the photographer for my podcast is a guy named Mike Blabak. He's the DC photographer, and he shot all this. They got all of this on film. So the, the ankle was like this big.

Joe Rogan 27:22 Oh my God.

Andrew Huberman 27:22 So the other night when I saw that fight-

Joe Rogan 27:24 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 27:24 ... I'm just, I don't know much about UFC, but I'm sort of learning from friends. And I saw that ankle break, my first thought was, "Well, you know, ass- " you know, Danny might just wrap it up, keep going." (laughs) But it was a different-

Joe Rogan 27:34 That wasn't an ankle break. He broke his tibia.

Andrew Huberman 27:36 Oh.

Joe Rogan 27:36 His tibia and his fibula.

Andrew Huberman 27:38 Yeah, it looked higher than the ankle.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Yeah, it's, it was higher. It was an injury that they had sustained, um, that he had sustained in training. Uh, he got it scanned. If you go to Laura Sanko's page, she's, uh-

Narrator 27:49 Right, I got him.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Is this him?

Andrew Huberman 27:50 This is on a broken ankle.

Narrator 27:51 This is, this is him getting practice.

Andrew Huberman 27:52 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 27:53 Oh my God.

Andrew Huberman 27:55 So a week-

Joe Rogan 27:56 Oh my God.

Andrew Huberman 27:57 What's wild is a week before this.

Joe Rogan 28:00 Next day with a fractured ankle.

Andrew Huberman 28:02 A guy on a mountain bike c- died doing this a week before.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Really?

Andrew Huberman 28:05 Yep.

Joe Rogan 28:06 On a mountain bike?

Andrew Huberman 28:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:07 On the same ramp?

Andrew Huberman 28:08 This is on a broken ankle.

Joe Rogan 28:09 Look at this motherfucker. Oh my God.

Andrew Huberman 28:12 Yeah, when we were kids-

Joe Rogan 28:13 What a bad motherfucker he is. Jesus-

Andrew Huberman 28:15 He is.

Joe Rogan 28:15 ... Christ, that is so wild. The amount of air he's getting is insane. Wow, that's incredible. Well, look at him-

Andrew Huberman 28:23 When we were-

Joe Rogan 28:23 ... walking like that with a be- broken ankle like it ain't shit. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 28:26 That's amazing. When we were kids, we'd go to these what are called lock-ins. They'd lock up the skate park at night, you could skate there all night. But if you left, you couldn't come back in. And Danny and his buddy, Colin McKay, they were this little gang, they called themselves the Red Dragons. And they would just ... For every time, it's like one run when you drop in and take a run. Danny would get 20 runs to everyone's run. He'd just start ...

Joe Rogan 28:45 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 28:45 I mean, the- he's always had that.

Joe Rogan 28:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 28:47 Listen to Slayer, like, "Ah." Just that's him.

Joe Rogan 28:51 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 28:51 And, um, well, that's, you know, that's that.

Joe Rogan 28:54 So John Kavanagh, who's Conor McGregor- excuse me, who's Conor McGregor's, uh, coach said that ... That's Laura. Laura Sanko is, uh, one of the UFC, uh, commentators, and she, uh, did an excellent interview with Kavanagh. And they went over all the things that happened. And one of the things that happened in training camp was, uh, they think it probably cracked in training camp. And, uh, he got it scanned and, uh, you know, they said they, there might have been something there, but it's hard to tell. It's probably some sort of a hairline fracture. And, uh, they did their best to just stay healthy until they can get into the fight. But if you go to Laura's interview, it's really excellent. And, uh, Kavanagh explains that. And it looks like, uh, John Wayne Parr picked up something too. It looked like the, the shin was compromised on one of the leg kicks too. Not the one that Dustin thought. Dustin thought that probably s- it was probably damaged more than once, because, uh, Dustin checked one of the kicks and then pointed to Conor's l- shin, like, "I know that hurt f- " or, "That hurt you." But this one, this is from John Wayne Parr's page. He throws his kick. If you watch Conor's shin-... see, look, it kind of buckles right there. See that?

Andrew Huberman 30:05 Oh, yeah. No, there's-

Joe Rogan 30:06 That ain't good.

Andrew Huberman 30:07 ... there's definitely something happening.

Joe Rogan 30:07 Right. Now, right after it buckles there, this is what Jon put up, right afterwards, Conor then throws a front kick and that's it right there. And that front kick hits the knee. Now, as he puts it down, his knee's sh- his shin is shot now. Now he goes to throw a punch, he throws a punch and then as he steps back, no, he doesn't have it on his. If you go to mine, you'll see that. If you go to mine, go to my Instagram and you'll see, um, I reposted it from, uh, Eric Nicksick from, um, (smacks lips) uh, Xtreme Couture. So he's, he throws this front kick and as he throws the front kick, it hits the elbow at the points. He's throwing it up, see that? And bam, it catches it, and then it goes down. And right now, he's standing on that fractured. So he puts it behind him, watch. He puts it behind him, and then he throws the punch, and then when he goes to throw the punch, he picks the foot off the ground, right? Here's the left hand.

Andrew Huberman 31:09 Oh, that almost looked like it bent back.

Joe Rogan 31:10 But watch this. It did bend back, but watch this. Bang. Then it just gives out completely. See, it folds over.

Andrew Huberman 31:15 Wow.

Joe Rogan 31:16 So it was snapped above the ankle.

Andrew Huberman 31:20 Yeah, that's, uh-

Joe Rogan 31:20 It wasn't actually the ankle. It was above the ankle. Here's what's really crazy. There's been so many fights in the UFC and to have all these breaks in a row, there's been, uh, Jacare Souza got his arm broken, Chris Weidman got his leg broken. There's been a ton of breaks over and over and over again, over the last-

Andrew Huberman 31:42 Wonder what the hell's going on.

Joe Rogan 31:43 Just people are getting good at breaking people's bones.

Andrew Huberman 31:45 People are...

Joe Rogan 31:46 It's re- really what it is. You know? And the Chris Weidman one's a freak accident. The craziest thing is, Chris Weidman, there's only been, I think, one, two, three, four, there's been four leg breaks like that in the UFC. In the history of the UFC, Chris Weidman's been involved in two of them. The odds are insane. Insane. Anderson Silva threw a kick, he checked it, Anderson broke his knee. He threw a kick, Uriah Hall checked it, or Anderson broke his leg rather, he threw it, Uriah Hall checked it, he broke his leg. Crazy.

Andrew Huberman 32:17 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 32:17 The odds, the odds of these things happening, like, in this, this number, are nuts.

Andrew Huberman 32:23 That is crazy.

Joe Rogan 32:24 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 32:24 A brutal sport. I mean-

Joe Rogan 32:26 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 32:26 ... like I said, I'm only recently exposed to it. I, I, I do not understand the ground game, 'cause as an outsider, there's just no way to comprehend. I can't, I can't tell who's in control, basically.

Joe Rogan 32:36 Yeah, it's complicated. It's like watching chess if you don't understand the rules. Like, you're like, "Why is he allowed to move like that with that piece?"

Andrew Huberman 32:42 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:42 You know, it's, it's, uh, it's a real problem for judging because, uh, a lot of the judges don't understand the ground game either. It's getting better. The ones in Nevada are getting really good and th- that's the gold standard, but there's... The problem is, in other states, we'll go to these different states and the, um, MMA commissions are very new so they're using boxing judges and the boxing judges don't understand, s- some boxing judges, don't understand these submission techniques. If they've trained, that's ideal. Ideal, uh, you really should be at least a, a blue belt or above to, as a, as a referee, or as a judge, rather.

Andrew Huberman 33:20 It seems right. In science, we don't let people review papers unless they have been in the game a long time.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 33:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:26 It's co-

Andrew Huberman 33:26 Careers are on the line.

Joe Rogan 33:27 Ground game's complicated. I mean, I've been training since 1996 and there's still some shit that I don't understand. There's some moves, like when I g-... There's a, a local Austin, um, uh, internet streaming, uh, jujitsu competition that happens every month, it's called Who's Number One, it's the elite of the elite. It's really amazing, 'cause we get to go see it at the Marriott here.

Andrew Huberman 33:46 Oh, fun.

Joe Rogan 33:47 We'll go live and watch it and sometimes there's techniques that these guys are doing that I'm like, "What is... Was it... Oh, the, the ankles? Oh, okay. Is it... Oh, I see. Oh, how did he do that?" And then I'll have to go watch a v- a video and go, "Oh, he sets it up with the wrist." And you see, like, these weird ankle locks or some new foot lock, or some new way to set up a heel hook or some new kind of a, a, like a choke and you're like, "This..." It's wild, like jujitsu is, you know, there's two arms and two legs and a neck, right? These are the, basically the things that you're, you're trying to submit, but the combinations and the variables, when you add them all together, there's just so many possibilities of things that you can do to someone and things that you can do to counter someone when they're trying to do something to you.

Andrew Huberman 34:32 It sounds super scientific. I've, I keep asking Lex Fridman to give me a tutorial.

Joe Rogan 34:37 He'd be perfect for it 'cause he's-

Andrew Huberman 34:38 Yeah, he'd be great. Break it down like a scientist.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 34:40 Like nerd to nerd, just tell us how it works, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:42 And he's a legit black belt, so it would... Yeah, you would enjoy it, I think. I think you'd enjoy it, especially 'cause you're such a physical guy.

Andrew Huberman 34:49 I mean, I li- I like, I like physical effort.

Joe Rogan 34:52 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 34:53 Um, it's a, it's a, it's a serious time commitment, right? I mean, you're not gonna go in-

Joe Rogan 34:56 Yeah, it's-

Andrew Huberman 34:56 ... you're not gonna do 45 minutes in and out. You're there for a couple of hours.

Joe Rogan 34:59 You're there for a 90-minute class, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 35:01 And y- and you recommend if someone were gonna start, they... Maybe two, two or three times a week? Or is it-

Joe Rogan 35:06 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 35:06 ... it's a daily commitment?

Joe Rogan 35:07 No, you don't have to do it every day. I mean, if you did, you'd get better, but you'd also get injured (laughs) . So I think, uh, I think in the beginning two times a week is really good and then build up to more if you enjoy it, and I think you'd probably enjoy it. Um, but I- I've seen people get pretty damn good inside of six months, especially someone like you who's very physical and already in shape.

Andrew Huberman 35:29 I might give it a shot.

Joe Rogan 35:30 It'd be fun, man. There's a lot of places-

Andrew Huberman 35:31 Lex, go easy on me.

Joe Rogan 35:32 There's a lot of places in, uh, where you're at, out near, uh, in the, the Bay Area, but there's a lot of places here too, so there's, um... And this is, uh, John Danaher is actually moving here now and he's moving... That's the, literally the best jujitsu team on Earth.

Andrew Huberman 35:47 I think I saw your podcast with him and Alexis.

Joe Rogan 35:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 35:50 He's a, is he a New Zealander guy or something?

Joe Rogan 35:52 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 35:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:53 He was a philosophy professor at Columbia.

Andrew Huberman 35:55 That's wild.

Joe Rogan 35:55 And fell in love with jujitsu.

Andrew Huberman 35:57 That's wild.

Joe Rogan 35:57 And now he's, uh... I mean, his dedication to it is obscene.... it's, it's so... I mean, he's seven days a week, he teaches a class seven days a week. And, uh, he never takes days off, including holidays. He does- he takes no days off. He has no family, he has no girlfriend. And-

Andrew Huberman 36:13 It's just jiu-jitsu.

Joe Rogan 36:15 Just jiu-jitsu. And when he's not, uh, doing classes, he's studying tape.

Andrew Huberman 36:19 Sounds like a scientist.

Joe Rogan 36:20 Well, he's the... Literally, you couldn't ask for a better coach because he's so obsessed. And because of that obsession, it's almost impossible to get a better co- No, it's impossible to get a better coach. Literally impossible. You get a really good coach, there's great coaches. You cannot get a better coach. It's not possible. There's guys that are probably as good as John. I never met him. But there's guys that are really good. You know, Eddie Bravo is really fucking good. I mean, he might be as good as John as a coach. But to get a better coach is not humanly possible. And to get a more dedicated coach, they don't exist. You're not gonna find someone that can teach the way that guy does seven days a week, and also afterwards study tape all day. So, like, something will happen in class where someone will catch someone with some sort of a technique and then they'll say, "Okay, how... What is the counter to this?" Like, "How does, how does someone get out of this? Let's start in that position and let's analyze it." So, they'll do that. And then he'll go home and he'll find incidences of this technique being used in MMA, this technique being used in wrestling, and he'll analyze it and he'll break it down in slow motion, and then he'll take notes and then he'll come back to class the next day with some new strategies.

Andrew Huberman 37:34 I love it.

Joe Rogan 37:34 It's wild, man-

Andrew Huberman 37:35 I love it.

Joe Rogan 37:35 ... 'cause it really is a science. Jiu-jitsu is a science.

Andrew Huberman 37:37 Yeah. The way you describe it is the way-

Joe Rogan 37:39 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 37:39 ... a science gets- scientist gets obsessed with a problem-

Joe Rogan 37:41 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 37:41 ... and goes into the literature and then starts tinkering around in the lab.

Joe Rogan 37:44 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:44 And it, it's a, it's a process. Beautiful.

Joe Rogan 37:46 It's an amazing art. It really is. It's, it's just too bad the human body breaks so easy. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 37:51 Well, there are things, there are things... I mean, I think that the, uh, you know, we hear a lot about age longevity, you know, living a long time.

Joe Rogan 37:58 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 37:58 But, but there's the other one which is performance longevity.

Joe Rogan 38:01 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 38:01 And I'm, I'm very interested in that. And Stanford has a whole, uh, growing interest in human performance. And I've had an interest in this for a long time. I mean, you know, there are all the things that we talk about for normal health and well-being for the general public, all the stuff that before 2020 no one thought about and now people are saying, "Oh, maybe I should take some responsibility for my mental and physical health."

Joe Rogan 38:20 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 38:20 Sleep, hydration, physical exercise, all the things that y- you talk about and, and that I certainly believe in wholeheartedly people should do. In the high per- in the world of high performance, you know, those same things, it's gonna be light, temperature, hormone re- you know.

Joe Rogan 38:35 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 38:35 The hormone augmentation thing is always a little bit of a complicated discussion.

Joe Rogan 38:38 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 38:38 But there's so much that's happening there right now that's really interesting.

Joe Rogan 38:41 Like what?

Andrew Huberman 38:42 Well, for instance, um, sort of back to the topic of supplements. I always say, look, their behaviors are the fundamental layer. You have to do the right things, uh, for anything, for sleep, for learning, for, uh, sports performance. But then there's nutrition, supplementation, prescription drugs, and then off-label stuff, right?

Joe Rogan 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 39:00 And so we always think of... When you hear hormones in sports, you always think just the raw conversation about anabolics, all the banned stuff.

Joe Rogan 39:07 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:07 We could talk about that stuff and how it works. Years ago, I used to work on androgens, testosterone and its derivatives and how it impacts brain development and body function, fear, and, and also mental states. But there's a category of supplements that are very interesting that for most people who aren't exploring testosterone augmentation for sport work very well to increase testosterone by about 100 to 200 points. Not, you know, 300... you know, not a tripling or anything like that. And the main ones are two substances. One is called Tongkat Ali.

Joe Rogan 39:37 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 39:37 Which is-

Joe Rogan 39:38 That stuff's real, huh?

Andrew Huberman 39:38 Yeah. Oh, yeah, because the... what happens is-

Joe Rogan 39:40 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 39:40 ... the testosterone molecule, it, it's basically carried in a cargo, so it can be in its free form, unbound form, free testosterone. And everyone says, "Oh, I want more free testosterone." You want more, but the- these what are called sex hormone-binding globulins, so there's something called sex hormone-binding globulin and albumin, they carry the testosterone molecule to the different tissues of the body. So, you don't want all your testosterone free, you want some of it bound up so that it can be delivered to the different tissues, including your brain. But if you have too much sex hormone-binding globulin, the testosterone can't really do its things, okay? So, Tongkat Ali, about 400 milligrams per day has the effect of raising free testosterone and overall testosterone by about 100 to 200 points. And so we're not talking about full TRT or blasting her now that... (laughs) I'm always amused on YouTube, they now call it sports TRT. That's when you get above 200 milligrams per week. So-

Joe Rogan 40:34 Sports?

Andrew Huberman 40:35 This is basically, you know, you've got TRT which is typically about 200 milligrams per week.

Joe Rogan 40:39 And when you say 200 milligrams, when you're looking at a syringe, what is that? So that's a th-

Andrew Huberman 40:44 So the typic-

Joe Rogan 40:45 Is that 1,000 milligrams?

Andrew Huberman 40:46 So the typical dose of, of, uh, testosterone replacement therapy-

Joe Rogan 40:50 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 40:50 ... is 200 milligrams given once every week to two weeks.

Joe Rogan 40:55 But when you look at a full syringe, what is that?

Andrew Huberman 40:56 So for one cc, one mil-

Joe Rogan 40:58 Right.

Andrew Huberman 40:59 ... that's 200 milligrams typically of cypionate, which is sold

Narrator 41:02 I think.

Joe Rogan 41:02 One cc? A full cc is only two-

Andrew Huberman 41:04 That's... One cc is not gonna be that much. It's a... Yeah. So, it depends. If you have a little narrow syringe-

Joe Rogan 41:08 Okay.

Andrew Huberman 41:09 ... right?

Joe Rogan 41:09 Right. But if you have a s- a syringe that goes up to 10, what is that?

Andrew Huberman 41:12 Right. That's, that's 10 ccs. That's a lot.

Joe Rogan 41:14 That's 10 ccs.

Andrew Huberman 41:15 Yeah. That's 1,000 milligrams.

Joe Rogan 41:17 Okay. That makes sense.

Andrew Huberman 41:17 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 41:18 So-

Andrew Huberman 41:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:18 ... it would be two on that.

Andrew Huberman 41:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 41:20 And that's 200 milligrams.

Andrew Huberman 41:20 That's right. So, well, okay.

Joe Rogan 41:22 I was like, "Jesus Christ."

Andrew Huberman 41:23 So as long as we're going down this path-

Joe Rogan 41:23 I thought you were saying like two-

Andrew Huberman 41:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:24 ... full syringes.

Andrew Huberman 41:25 Yeah. I mean, I actually think that a lot of people who think they need TRT, when I hear about guys in their 20s and 30s, it- it... Uh, look, I'm in my mid-40s, and I, I can tell you that you can get and maintain very healthy testosterone levels without TRT if you do the right things, the behaviors, the nutrition, all the other stuff early on. There's sometimes people that have hypogonadal syndromes and things like that, but-

Joe Rogan 41:45 There's a lot of issues with guys who have head injuries.

Andrew Huberman 41:48 And with head injuries. And ab-

Joe Rogan 41:49 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 41:49 ... absolutely. And we... and we... it'd be an interesting conversation to talk about the role of testosterone in, in neural repair. It's very interesting.

Joe Rogan 41:56 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 41:56 But when you look at TRT, I mean, the way that the clinics and the doctors typically do it is to give 200 milligrams and then send people out for two weeks and then they come back 'cause they can charge them to come back repeatedly.... it's clear that, uh, on a- without any TRT, the testes normally make anywhere from seven to 15 milligrams of testosterone per day. So, taking this massive dose and then waiting two weeks is absolutely foolish. It doesn't, uh, it's amazing to me that the, the medical profession does this because it doesn't match anything about the normal patterns of endocrinology. It's just not how the body works.

Joe Rogan 42:28 The way it's been described to me to do it is to do it, um, with an insulin syringe and to do a tiny amount every three days.

Andrew Huberman 42:37 Right. That's correct.

Joe Rogan 42:38 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:38 So, 0.2 milligram- you know, 0.2 mils.

Joe Rogan 42:41 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 42:41 So, maybe, you know, 20 to 60 milligrams every, every few days, every third day or so.

Joe Rogan 42:46 Right.

Andrew Huberman 42:46 That much more closely matches the normal pattern of release, and avoids these estrogenic crashes. And a lot of problems that are, that are layered onto estrogen are actually problems with prolactin, which is a molecule that's involved in milk letdown in lactating women.

Joe Rogan 43:01 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 43:01 But it actually shuts down the sexual desire and aggression. You know, when... Uh, this is interesting about prolactin. So, um, this happens in brooding birds and it happens in humans. They've done this. A study published in the journal, Nature, which is our kind of apex journal, showed that when the husbands of pregnant women, because of something, maybe a pheromone, maybe some odor of the pregnant woman, actually increases the man's prolactin when they're pregnant. Puts body weight on the guy. He starts laying down body fat, presumably to prepare the father for the long sleepless nights ahead, because humans have always co-parented.

Joe Rogan 43:37 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 43:37 Um, I- mostly co-parented. We all-

Joe Rogan 43:40 So, dudes out there-

Andrew Huberman 43:40 We all know women do far more, but it, it's true.

Joe Rogan 43:42 Dudes out there who get fat, don't feel bad.

Andrew Huberman 43:44 Yeah. So, the d-

Joe Rogan 43:44 That's what's going on. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 43:45 ... the dad bod is, is-

Joe Rogan 43:47 It's real.

Andrew Huberman 43:47 ... in part due to an increase in prolactin.

Joe Rogan 43:49 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 43:49 And testosterone and prolactin are kind of working in opposite fashion. So, it's a very interesting thing, but, uh, the way you describe it is correct. Now, for people that aren't getting prescribed TRT but want the increase in testosterone, there are these plant compounds like tongkat ali, and another one which is very interesting, it's a Nigerian shrub called fadoja agrestis. And it mimics luteinizing hormone, which is the hormone that comes out of the hypothalamus that stimulates the testes, if you got those, and your ovaries, if you've got those, to make more testosterone or estrogen. And so those two herbal supplements together can give a significant boost in free and active testosterone.

Joe Rogan 44:26 So, you said tongkat ali can give you 100 to 200?

Andrew Huberman 44:29 Yeah, about that.

Joe Rogan 44:30 But what does the other one give you?

Andrew Huberman 44:31 Fadoja is usually taken at about 600 milligrams, um, and that can mean... I- the, the most dramatic effect I've ever seen was somebody who had his testosterone down in the low twos, or I think it was like low twos. And it, he got it up to the 700 range, which-

Joe Rogan 44:46 Really?

Andrew Huberman 44:46 But that's an, but that's an outlier, right? Most people are gonna see about a 300 to 400 point increase.

Joe Rogan 44:50 And that's what the two of them sy-

Andrew Huberman 44:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:52 ... synergistically?

Andrew Huberman 44:52 Fadoja will actually make the testes grow.

Joe Rogan 44:55 Really?

Andrew Huberman 44:55 It's a, it's, it's a noticeable difference. So-

Joe Rogan 44:57 Everybody wants that.

Andrew Huberman 44:58 (laughs) Well, the reason I know about this stuff-

Joe Rogan 45:00 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:00 ... people are probably be thinking like, you know, "Huberman's running gear out of the back of his cars." That's not what this is about. Is that I, I do a certain amount of work with military and I do a certain amount of work with professional athletes who cannot take androgen compounds out of a syringe because they'll lose their job.

Joe Rogan 45:16 Right.

Andrew Huberman 45:17 Or they've been doing that and they wanna come off. Although, and I'm not gonna out the organization, but there is one major professional sports organization where, let's just say, if somebody gets injured, they have permission to take up to 200 milligrams a week of testosterone.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Soccer?

Andrew Huberman 45:31 No.

Joe Rogan 45:32 No?

Andrew Huberman 45:32 No.

Joe Rogan 45:32 Shit.

Andrew Huberman 45:33 No. But good guess.

Joe Rogan 45:34 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:35 (laughs) You almost got me there.

Joe Rogan 45:37 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 45:37 (laughs) 'Cause I almost countered with the actual thing they did is-

Joe Rogan 45:39 Hockey?

Andrew Huberman 45:40 Uh, no. Although those guys have the-

Joe Rogan 45:42 Head injuries.

Andrew Huberman 45:44 ... the head injuries. So, actually, so that-

Joe Rogan 45:45 Significant, right?

Andrew Huberman 45:45 The head injury thing is, is, is a serious problem, obviously. So, testosterone has the n- the effects we're all aware of, like deepening the voice, facial hair, muscle growth, recovery, et cetera. Mostly because testosterone increases protein synthesis. You look at a, a young male in puberty, it's a protein synthesis machine.

Joe Rogan 46:02 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 46:02 They eat, they eat, they eat, and they just grow and grow and grow, and they're putting on muscles and they're lean, and you know. So, most often they're lean. But in any case, testosterone has some very interesting effects on the brain. The, the major mental effect of testosterone is it makes effort feel good.

Joe Rogan 46:20 Oh, that makes sense.

Andrew Huberman 46:22 And the reason it does it is that the amygdala, this fear center in the brain, this anxiety center in the brain, has androgen receptors. It has testosterone receptors. And so i- i- the way this works in animals and in humans as well is that for most species, the males of that species never get a chance to mate, right? So, if you think about... Uh, I'll probably pick an example where you'll, you'll know the exception 'cause I know you know a lot about natural animals and, uh, animals that are hunted. But if you think about animals with antlers like rams, there's been a lot of research, believe it or not, on rams. It'd be fun-

Joe Rogan 46:52 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 46:53 ... to... I'd love to work on rams.

Joe Rogan 46:53 Do you know rams have enormous balls?

Andrew Huberman 46:56 And they have to fight for the right to mate.

Joe Rogan 46:58 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 46:59 And the fighting is a choice, right? And the decision to walk away is a choice usually. They usually don't kill each other, although I know some of the injuries can lead to death. So, testosterone, these surges in testosterone that happen seasonally in certain species like rams or even these little hamsters, the males will rip each other's testicles off in order to fight for the right-

Joe Rogan 47:19 Whew.

Andrew Huberman 47:20 ... to mate. So, males of a given species have to actually overcome the fear of pain and punishment. And the surge in testosterone is what causes the shift to the willingness to engage in battle.

Joe Rogan 47:32 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 47:32 And so when humans are taking low doses or m- or reasonable doses of testosterone, or they're increasing their testosterone, or they're going through puberty, effort and leaning into pain and challenge actually has the effect of making the body feel soothed and good. It's a drive, just like sex is a drive or drinking water when you're thirsty is a drive. This stuff is all anchored deep within the hypothalamus. This isn't a cognitive thing.

Joe Rogan 47:56 That makes sense why young men, in particular, are really driven to h- hard exercise and sports that are ver- very difficult that require extreme effort. Completely makes sense.

Andrew Huberman 48:08 Yeah. And why, when people are testosterone depleted, they feel depressed, and when people have a surge of testosterone, they feel relief in anxiety, provided it's in the appropriate range, right?

Joe Rogan 48:18 My friend, Steve Rinella has a podcast called Meat Eater and, uh, he had a, a squirrel expert on. And they were talking about squirrels and squirrel estrus. So, when the female is in estrus, the, the males, uh, only have a s- a small window. They have, like, a six-hour window and it doesn't happen very often. And so when you see squirrels chasing each other around, screaming (squirrel squeaking) , going nutty, that's generally what's going on. And they throw each other out of trees. So-

Andrew Huberman 48:45 It's like the last call at a bar.

Joe Rogan 48:46 It's a lot-

Andrew Huberman 48:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:47 ... worse than that. It's the last call at a, like a barbarian compound.

Andrew Huberman 48:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:51 Because, like, when the male will be breeding with a female and another male will come along and pull him off and throw him off the tree. So these, these squirrels will fall, like, 60, 70 feet-

Andrew Huberman 49:02 Wow.

Joe Rogan 49:02 ... and bounce off the ground and run right back up the tree.

Andrew Huberman 49:05 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 49:05 They, they actually can survive falls.

Andrew Huberman 49:08 That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 49:08 It's nuts. But they were saying that, you know, the, these squirrels, they're only in estrus for a short amount of time. So when the males recognize that she's ready to go, they just start chasing her and then all the other ones come around, they start fighting.

Andrew Huberman 49:20 Male-

Joe Rogan 49:20 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 49:21 ... a- animal aggression's amazing. I saw this nature show, I forget which one of the Attenborough ones it was, but it was a lion that was getting attacked by these hyenas.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Oh, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 49:28 And the hyenas know to go after the testicles and they know to go after the hindquarters. They, they just innately, maybe they learn it by observing.

Joe Rogan 49:34 Like wolves.

Andrew Huberman 49:35 Like wolves.

Joe Rogan 49:35 Wolves do that as well.

Andrew Huberman 49:36 But what's interesting is another male lion comes along in this particular segment. Normally, these two male lions would fight. But this other male lion comes in and essentially saves the other one, runs off the hyenas. And if you think about that behavior, it's incredible because this is an animal whose natural innate drive is to kill the other competition within his species, kill the other lion. And instead, puts his own life on the line to try and rescue the other member of his species.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 50:02 And lions don't sit around and think, like, "Oh, I'm gonna post this later on Instagram," or, "This is the right thing to do for my species." It's a switch in the brain.

Joe Rogan 50:09 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 50:09 And those switches reside in the hypothalamus, this kind of core area of our brain right above the roof of our mouth. This is where all the fundamental drives are, are managed and regulated. And there are chock-a-block full of testosterone receptors and estrogen receptors. On the female side, it's also really interesting. So in species where there's pair bonding, humans are a really good example of that, but also other animal species where there's strong elements of pair bonding, there is female-female competition.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Hm.

Andrew Huberman 50:41 Female animals of a given species start being nasty to one another in different ways. Sometimes it's actual physical aggression, sometimes it's resource allocation. They start blocking other females from getting access to the m- to the, the sires, the males that were, are desirable. They're, so they're playing this game around DNA-

Joe Rogan 50:59 Hm.

Andrew Huberman 50:59 ... but they're not conscious of it, obviously.

Joe Rogan 51:01 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 51:01 And humans do this too when, you know, female-female competition when there's a male, desirable male in the equation is, can be brutal. I mean, you know, remember, I think there was this astronaut lady who-

Joe Rogan 51:12 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 51:12 ... like drove in diapers-

Joe Rogan 51:14 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 51:14 ... down to kill somebody who-

Joe Rogan 51:15 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 51:15 ... uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 51:16 She, she was having an affair with this guy and she, she, uh, uh, confr- uh, there was a, uh, the, either the guy's girlfriend or the guy's wife, but she drove, like, for a full day to go to meet the lady, maced her, tried to get her to open up the door, the girl wouldn't open up the door, so she maced her. And she had worn a diaper so that she didn't have to stop to go to the bathroom, so she just... Fucking nutty.

Andrew Huberman 51:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:38 It's a, it's a nutty story.

Andrew Huberman 51:39 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 51:40 Yeah, it's really wild. And, you know, there are all sorts of interesting facts around how hormones regulate brain development. One of the, the ones that, um, always makes, uh, usually m- uh, men kind of o- kind of go wide-eyed is that during development, the testes give off testosterone, no surprise there, but the actual masculinization of traits within the brain, and there are certain traits that anatomically you can see, the masculinization of the brain is not by testosterone. It's by testosterone that's aromatized, converted into estrogen. So estrogen is actually what masculinizes the male brain.

Joe Rogan 52:16 What?

Andrew Huberman 52:17 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 52:18 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 52:21 And th- so, uh, g- going back to the sort of the TRT discussion and the testosterone discussion, these days there's a lot of discussion around, oh, you know, if your testosterone's too high, then you know, it converts to estrogen and that creates these effects like, you know, gynecomastia, growth of the male breast tissue-

Joe Rogan 52:35 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 52:36 ... uh, reduction in libido, all these things. Most of those effects are not actually caused by estrogen. This is a common misconception. It's, those effects are created by excessive levels of prolactin.

Joe Rogan 52:46 Hm.

Andrew Huberman 52:46 And the more common medical practice now is to not include estrogen blockers when people are doing testosterone replacement. No Anastrozole, none of those things, because they actually have very bad effects on the vasculature of the brain.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Is that Clomiphene as well?

Andrew Huberman 53:00 Uh, I don't, I'm not familiar with Clomiphene. If it's an estrogen antagonist or-

Joe Rogan 53:04 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:04 ... or an aromatase inhibitor, then y- you want estrogen. You don't want a ton of it, but for longevity of the brain and health of the brain and for repair of the brain, you need ample levels of estrogen.

Joe Rogan 53:16 So prolactin is what's causing that g- uh, growth of breast tissue. 'Cause I, I went down a rabbit hole the other day and I watched a bunch of YouTube videos of guys having their-

Andrew Huberman 53:25 (gasps)

Joe Rogan 53:25 ... their, um, what they call bitch tits, having them-

Andrew Huberman 53:28 Gynecomastia.

Joe Rogan 53:29 ... removed. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:30 The... And gynecomastia is, it's ri- it's, it's a mass. It's, it looks like it's fluid.

Andrew Huberman 53:36 And it's vascularized. I've spent some time-

Joe Rogan 53:38 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 53:38 ... with cadavers. I teach in neuroanatomy and I, years ago we used to do, I would do the labs also. Now I don't do the lab part. Um, you occasionally see this. There's a, I have a colleague, he's a (laughs) physician, he always says, "You know, the male breast tissue, it's, it's one of those things, it, it's there, it's just not very interesting. Um, it just happens to be there and it's very small."

Joe Rogan 53:55 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 53:55 But if there's a big increase in prolactin, then you will see that. People who take, uh, opioids, like with the opioid crisis, or heroin users, the reason why they get breast development is because dopamine inhibits prolactin.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 54:10 So, dopamine and testosterone are close cousins, and this will f- eh, this will immediately be familiar to you or anyone else that has had that experience of really being in the zone and hard driving and you're, you're getting wins.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:21 And we know that testosterone goes up as you're succeeding. We know this.

Joe Rogan 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:25 I, I mean, I didn't do the blood serum analysis, but you can bet that the, in the Poirier/McGregor fight, if you did blood draws before, I don't know whose testosterone would be higher, doesn't really matter, but afterward, you're going to see a significant decrease in, in the loser.

Joe Rogan 54:39 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 54:39 And you're gonna see a significant increase in the winner. You see this in day traders, you see this in school teachers. This-

Joe Rogan 54:43 Day traders?

Andrew Huberman 54:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Really?

Andrew Huberman 54:44 Because testosterone feeds back on the brain and releases more dopamine, because the brain is trying to learn, what was the behavior that led to the win?

Joe Rogan 54:52 Is this a similar, uh, w- thing that happens with women when women succeed?

Andrew Huberman 54:57 Yeah. So, women have some testosterone. Uh, they mostly make it from their adrenal glands, these little glands that ride atop the kidneys in the lower back. And at the core of the adrenals, they can release, uh, these androgens. Occasionally, um, and just as a, kind of a side note, occasionally, a child is born with a,, a female child is born with a very enlarged clitoris. There's, um, oftentimes there, you'll find, like, a, uh, a tumor on the adrenals in the, in the pregnant mother.

Joe Rogan 55:21 Hm.

Andrew Huberman 55:21 It's not entirely uncommon. There could be other reasons for that. But it's from elevated levels of androgens, testosterone. And when females of a given species, uh, you know, humans included, when they have a win, they succeed, you know, get a degree, or something good happens to them, whatever that is, they will release more dopamine and testosterone will go up a little bit. And testosterone is responsible, the, a little, um, increase in testosterone each month during the menstrual cycle is responsible for an increase in libido about 10 to 14 days before, uh, uh, ovulation that kicks in right around ovulation for the purpose of trying to fertilize the egg.

Joe Rogan 55:55 Wow. And so, w- is it a m- th- can you measure the difference between the way a man's increases versus a woman's increases? Like, is there ...

Andrew Huberman 56:06 So, you know, this is, um, yeah, this gets into an interesting area because there aren't a lot of good studies on exactly what you're asking. Um, there's another androgen, another testosterone-related molecule, which is called DHT, dihydrotestosterone.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Mm-hmm. That's what causes you to go bald.

Andrew Huberman 56:21 It's what causes you to go bald and it's what causes beard growth. It has an inverse-

Joe Rogan 56:25 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 56:25 ... effect on the, on the hair follicles of the face and on the hair follicles on the head. And how much, um, d- how many DHT receptors you have is very strongly genetically determined. You go to some areas of the world, like Chile, and the men are all bald with, like, serious beards, legit beards. Not like mine, like, which i- is an attempt at a beard, right? They have real beards. Or in Afghanistan, serious beards. That's genetic. Okay. So, DHT has 600 times the affinity for the testosterone receptor than actual testosterone. Testosterone and nandrolone, Deca, that the bodybuilders take to give that really hard look and the females in particular, female bodybuilders, like, that gives that really hard, kind of crisp, grainy look.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 57:07 Um, Deca has its basically, it's anabolic, but it's not androgenic. It causes a lot of the muscle growth, the muscle repair without creating the deepening of the voice. And actually, an Olympic runner was eliminated, sadly, uh, um, because she was a phenomenal runner for a, um, you know, a urine, urinalysis that was positive for Deca recently. She blamed it on a pork burrito that she ate at, from a taco truck or something a couple nights before. And my mind on this is i- I hope she did Deca only because if she lost her career from a pork burrito, that's tragic.

Joe Rogan 57:41 Right. Right. You hope she cheated. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 57:42 But if she took Deca and lost her career, well then, you know-

Joe Rogan 57:46 The odds are she took Deca, right?

Andrew Huberman 57:48 It would be very unusual for a meat to maintain that, especially if the f- if the meat was cooked. So, no one asked me, but a few people reached out and I have some relationship to some Olympic committees, uh, not the ones that drug test, but Olympic teams, I should say, to be specific. It, if that pork was cooked, the Deca's destroyed.

Joe Rogan 58:09 And you can't eat-

Andrew Huberman 58:10 Oh, there's k- yeah. That's right.

Joe Rogan 58:11 ... pork that's not cooked.

Andrew Huberman 58:12 Yeah, it just seems like, it seems very unlikely.

Joe Rogan 58:14 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 58:15 It seems extremely unlikely.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Didn't Canelo Alvarez use that as an excuse for why he had, uh, testosterone, some, some sort of steroid in his system?

Andrew Huberman 58:23 So, he, um, as you can tell, I'm fascinated by this topic. I'm fascinated by the relationship between hormones, bodily changes, but also brain changes. Um, he, I believe, got, um, popped for clenbuterol.

Joe Rogan 58:34 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 58:35 Which is a beta-3 agonist. So, you've got, uh, receptors on your heart and on your blood vessels that dilate or constrict them. And there's a, uh, a drug, clenbuterol, that is a, creates a lot of increase in core body temperature, helps you burn fat, but it also has this effect of, of maintaining muscle. So, it's not really a steroid, it's not working on hormones, it's working on the so-called autonomic nervous system, heating and cooling of the body.

Joe Rogan 58:58 And this is, I believe, because he cuts a lot of weight.

Andrew Huberman 59:02 And, uh, y- I don't know that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:04 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:04 Because when guys cut weight, one of the things that happens during these, uh, I mean, it's not just starvation, but it's also massive dehydration and you have a lot of decreased bodily function that's directly related to that. Um-

Andrew Huberman 59:18 Yeah. The kidneys-

Joe Rogan 59:19 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:19 ... don't like dehydration.

Joe Rogan 59:20 Mm-hmm. No, it's terrible.

Andrew Huberman 59:21 You know, and-

Joe Rogan 59:22 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 59:22 ... salt balance is so key and-

Joe Rogan 59:24 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 59:24 ... I mean, gosh, uh, you know, I always say this, you know, people who think they have low blood sugar, please try putting a little bit of salt in and a glass of water and drinking it first. You know, most ... My sister used to think she had labile blood sugar, would, like, pass out, all this stuff. She's a bit of a hypochondriac anyway. But anyway-

Joe Rogan 59:37 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 59:38 ... the (laughs) there's a genetic thing there, but the, um ... I said, "Look, just consume a small teaspoon of salt in your water." Completely transformed everything. You, and especially if you're on a low carbohydrate diet, you're gonna be excreting sodium. Neurons require sodium to generate what's called the action potential, the firing of neurons.

Joe Rogan 59:55 Mm.

Andrew Huberman 59:56 So-

Joe Rogan 59:56 So, if you're doing keto and trying to lose weight, drink a-

Andrew Huberman 59:58 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 59:58 ... glass of water with a little salt in it.

Andrew Huberman 59:59 And if you're drinking distilled water, you're pissing out all your, your electrolytes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 So, that's why fighters do that to lose weight.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:05 They're getting dizzy.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:06 Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 They don't do that anymore, by the way.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:08 They're getting educated.

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 People, yeah, they stopped doing-

Andrew Huberman 1:00:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 Fighters used to drink a lot of distilled water, but there was some disastrous weight cuts and, uh, one in Brazil, that I'm aware of, where a guy died.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:18 Yeah. I think some bodybuilders died from clenbuterol. So-Could he have gotten clenbuterol from bad, uh, meat? Very unlikely. If you think about the cattle industry and what they want to do, they wanna make bigger, heavier cows, but they don't wanna make big, heavy, super lean cows. They want marbling in there and all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:00:36 Again, I didn't look at the, the blood analysis. If he got popped for clenbuterol and he didn't take it, that's tragic. If he got popped for clenbuterol and he did take it, it doesn't seem to be harming his career in any way.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Listen, dude. I don't know what he's doing, but, um, I do know that he is... He, he's one of those guys that's maintained his power as he's gone up in weight, which is really rare. It's rare that you can knock a guy out at 175 pounds who used to be a world champion when you were a 154 pound champion. It's very rare. Doesn't mean it's unheard of. Some guys just carry that kind of punching power. Manny Pacquiao won world titles in eight different weight classes, which is insanity. It's insanity. But there's also always been talk of him being, um, elevated.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:25 Well, they have great knowledge of these plant compounds and how they affect the hormone system overseas.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:01:32 You know, over here, we are, you know... Uh, I'm a serious patriot, so it like, it, it, uh, hurts me to say this, but we are miles behind what other countries are doing in terms of hormone augmentation and sports performance. In the realm of hormones, but also temperature modulation. There are incredible plant compounds out there. Like there's this thing that's now kind of, uh, going wild on the internet. I've never tried it, but it's called turkesterone.

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Turkesterone?

Andrew Huberman 1:01:56 Yeah, they call it "Turk" in the... And this is basically, it... And I actually reviewed... I did one episode of my podcast all about hormones, and I went deep into this literature. And turkesterone, side by side with deca or another testosterone derivative, it essentially acts the same way. It increases testosterone and performance and recovery, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 How much does it increase it by?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:16 E- equivalent.

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 Really?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:17 So, you know, you're-

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 So this plant compound is eq- equivalent to deca?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:21 Essentially.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Wow.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 Where do you get this stuff?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:24 Uh, people buy it on the internet, people buy it.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 How do you spell it? (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:02:26 (laughs) Uh, turkesterone. T-U-R-K-E sterone. And I wanna be clear, I'm not recommending people, uh, cowboy their endocrinology, but-

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 Too late. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:02:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 Turkesterone on Amazon.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:40 Yeah, that, that's probably not real.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 It's not?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:43 No, because, um... See, this is the problem. If you're not getting a prescription from a doctor, how do you know what you're getting?

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 Oh.

Andrew Huberman 1:02:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 So the stuff that they're selling on Amazon is fake?

Andrew Huberman 1:02:53 Yeah. So this, so this actually, um... I thought it came from Turkey and that's why there... So these e- these ectosterones, you see that, that, where it says ectosterone. Ectosterones are actually known to... They are insect hormones. That doesn't mean people are ingesting insects, but in insects, they have hormone systems that are similar to ours, but different and they get their hormones often from plants. You might-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:15 ... appreciate this one. Um, there's a very interesting relationship between the marijuana plant and estrogen and testosterone, and I wanna say this is a very controversial area, and when I say this a lot of pot smokers get upset. For some people, not all, marijuana and certain components of the plant, including the seeds... Do you remember that rumor way back when, when I was in college, they said, you know, "The seeds will make you sterile"? Turns out that certain elements of the marijuana plant increase aromatase, the, the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen. And in talking to some of my colleagues who are plant biologists, they said, "Yeah, I'm not surprised at all." There's an active component of plant to animal w- warfare-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:03:55 ... where e- in order to control the populations of animals that eat a plant, a plant will make certain hormones that will sterilize the males of that species.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 Wow. (clapping)

Andrew Huberman 1:04:05 So I'm not saying smoking pot will make you sterile. There's one study that shows that it increases testosterone, and several studies that show that it decreases it. So the, the literature all over the place.

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 And this is consumed in what way?

Andrew Huberman 1:04:17 They-

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 Edible or smoking?

Andrew Huberman 1:04:18 They had people smoke marijuana in the, in the two out of the three studies. The other one it was e- it was edible. But I have to say, the studies that I was able to find are not what we call published in blue ribbon journals. They're, they're okay.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:31 But it is interesting. So some people who will smoke pot during puberty will get the gynecomastia, the growth of the, of the male breast tissue.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Really?

Andrew Huberman 1:04:38 And that means that they probably have a genetic predisposition towards high levels of aromatase.

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:04:43 So it's all over the place. Just like some people do real well on the carnivore diet, other people do well on a vegan diet, and some people like me are omnivores and we're happy that way. There are gonna be people that just don't do well, hormonally, on marijuana. And there are gonna be other people that do. And, um, you know, it, it's highly individual.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 It's... It is highly individual, and it's so interesting when, when it comes to whether it's diet or when it comes to consuming something controversial like marijuana, that everybody wants this one size fits all approach and it's, it's not realistic.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:17 It's not realistic.

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 For diet it's not realistic. It's not realistic for exercise, it's not realistic for anything.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:22 Yeah, you have to try certain things. Like for me, I know that fasting in the early part of the day I'm more focused and I can-

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:27 And I'm a little bit high strung early in the day and so I train then, and then I dig into work. And then I eat low carb throughout the day so I'm effectively low carbohydrate. Because when you're low carbohydrate... Because carbohydrates trigger the release of serotonin, they have a calming effect. We know this. You have a big plate of pasta, it kind of mellows you out, it soothes you, it blunts cortisol.

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 Hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:05:47 Whereas if you don't eat carbohydrates, you tend to have a little bit of adrenaline in your system and it's go, go, go, go, go. And then in the evening I eat pasta and rice and less protein so that I can get to sleep easily, and I repack all the glycogen that I burned throughout the day training and doing a bunch of things like that. So this idea that you have to be low carb every day all day, or you have to be high carb, that's crazy. I mean, I think... I do know people who've done well on the carnivore diet. I, I only learned about it through your podcast and through... I forget his name. The, the guy with-

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Paul Saladino?

Andrew Huberman 1:06:17 ... Saladino, which is weird 'cause he has salad in his name, but it's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:06:20 Yeah. Someone pointed that out to me. (laughs) I was like, "But you're right."

Joe Rogan 1:06:22 That's so true. (laughs)

Andrew Huberman 1:06:22 That's right. But-

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 Well, he used to be a vegan.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:25 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:25 So, he's, uh, that always is reassuring to me when someone's done it both ways.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:29 But, you know, Rich Roll, I know Rich well, and, you know, he thrives on a vegan diet.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:34 And, you know, and guy's got, you know, calves this big and he's, you know, runs like a machine-

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 He runs ultra marathons. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:40 ... and he's, and he's a strong, you know, he- he functions well.

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 Yes.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:44 So, I do think that people should try it. They should be scientists-

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:48 ... for themselves. They should just be a scientist. Run the control experiment. Be a vegan for a month, be a carnivore for a month. Try it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 I, when I eat any kind of high carbohydrate meal, I crash.

Andrew Huberman 1:06:59 That's the tryptophan.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 I just want to go to sleep. Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:01 That's, and that's great if it's late in the day and you want to go to sleep. It's terrible if it's lunch and you have to-

Joe Rogan 1:07:05 Right.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:05 ... you gotta do a three-hour podcast four times a week.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Yeah. If I'm, uh, if I have, like, uh, something with a lot, like if I have sushi, right, like a lot of sushi with a lot of rice, I just want to nod off. Like, immediately my eyes get heavy and I just start talking slowly and I just (snores) I'm out.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:21 Yeah, it's a sedative.

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:23 But, but, um, most days if you're not doing that, do you sleep okay? Could you transition to sleep pretty-

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 I sleep pretty good.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 I sleep like a brick. But I'm always so tired. By the end of the day, I'm so exhausted. I shove so much shit into my day.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:36 What time are you up? Are you up early?

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 Seven.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:38 Yeah, that's early.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:07:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 And I'm almost, like, every day there's some kind of heavy exercise going on, pretty much, except for Sundays. And sometimes Saturdays I take off too, but most d- unless there's something crazy going on where I can't work out during the day, uh, on a weekday, most weekda- days there's a, there's a pretty brutal workout session in there. And so by the time the end of the day comes with podcasts and then I'm doing standup at night a lot of these nights, I'm tired, you know, so I just, I can crash.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:07 That's probably because you tr- you're training early in the day.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:10 So-

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 First thing, always.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:11 So your temp- one of the reasons you wake up is this increase in body temperature, and that's gonna increase throughout the day. And once your temperature starts dropping in the late afternoon, evening, you're headed for sleep.

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 I wanted to ask you, though, about this. Um, there's quite a few of these companies now, um, that are d- I had one for a while. I forget the one that I had. It was one of our sponsors, Jamie, that was a- a- a cooling pad that puts over the bed, but Jamie uses one called, what is it, Eight something?

Andrew Huberman 1:08:36 Eight Sleep.

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 Eight Sleep.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:37 Oh, yeah. Lex is big into Eight Sleep. Yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 Do you, do you use any of those? Like-

Andrew Huberman 1:08:41 I don't, but th- so there's a really interesting thing around temperature. Uh, you know, we hear so much about light, hormones, nutrition.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 Yeah.

Andrew Huberman 1:08:47 To me, temperature is the untapped power tool. It's just amazing what you can do with temperature. So, uh, so when you wake up in the morning, your temperature is increasing. If you exercise early in the day, your temperature will undergo a further increase. And then what you effectively do by exercising early in the day, especially viewing light and exercising early in the day, is you time the onset of that melatonin pulse to come on 16 hours later, which is gonna put you to sleep.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 Mm-hmm.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:16 Okay? So, but in order to get into sleep and stay asleep, your temperature's got to drop, and that starts for most people around 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon, although it depends on when you're waking up. As that temperature drops, it's going to be much easier to get into sleep. So there are a couple ways to accelerate that transition. One is to get into a sauna, which sounds counterproductive, or take a hot bath or a hot shower. But when you do that, the body actively cools, and when you get out, your body is dumping heat like crazy, and then you can, you have that kind of almost coma-like feel where you get into sleep real quick.

Joe Rogan 1:09:46 That's interesting because that's something I also do. I get in the sauna almost every night-

Andrew Huberman 1:09:50 Oh, that's magic.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 ... yeah, before I go to bed.

Andrew Huberman 1:09:52 Well, there you also get something really powerful. I know, uh, Rhonda Patrick has talked a lot about this and knows more about this than I do, but in researching some of the literature, if you do 20 minutes of sauna or so in the evening and you crank it up, you're getting up to the 200, 210 zone