Joe Rogan Experience #1684 - Abby Martin

1. 0:00 – 2:05

   Why Abby’s reporting draws blowback—and why the Israel/Palestine narrative shifted

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Abby Martin, how are you?

   4. AMAbby Martin0:16

      I'm great, how are you, Joe?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You're my favorite hardcore lefty.

   6. AMAbby Martin0:18

      (laughs) Thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      (laughs)

   8. AMAbby Martin0:20

      Thank you very much.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Yeah. 'Cause, uh, at all... You know, all the podcasts that I ever do, whenever I do a podcast with you, I'm like, "Okay, this one's gonna be interesting."

   10. AMAbby Martin0:28

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       There's, there's gonna be some shit that's gonna disturb me that I don't know about.

   12. AMAbby Martin0:32

       Hell yeah, man. That's how I like to do it. Well, a lot of the stuff is depressing and it's not for everyone, but, you know, you try to, you try to just go balls deep, because I, I grew up in the YouTube generation, and I learned so much and I wanna be that source for a lot of people, you know? I wanna, I wanna guide people through the journey of learning about real education and all the sinister shit your government's doing.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Sinister shit all guns- governments are doing. You know, I remember one of the first times... No- not one of the first times, but one of the, one of the biggest times that I got blowback from having you on was your s- your personal experience interviewing people in Israel.

   14. AMAbby Martin1:07

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       Interviewing, um, Israelis and interviewing Palestinians and, and trying to sort through, like, what is really going on over there? What is the real attitude about people over there? And I remember go- because... Fucking cam- it must be a, an email campaign. It must've been-

   16. AMAbby Martin1:21

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       ... a campaign, because it was, like, the same letter over and over and over again I was receiving in my inbox. It must've been, like, a website you could go and then sign it and then send it to me. But n- now, don't you think that, like, the tide has shifted in that subject, where now people are realizing, like, they're going, "Hey, like, this is not as simple as the mainstream media wants everybody to, to, to look at it"? The way mainstream media was portraying it in this country, it was always that Israel's the good guys, the Palestinians are the bad people. That's how it was. But the mainstream perception now has v- very much shifted, don't you think? Like with this last-

   18. AMAbby Martin2:04

       100%.

2. 2:05 – 6:38

   Gaza as siege: collective punishment, targeted strikes, and the ‘most moral army’ claim

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      When you see, like, that Iron Dome and you're seeing these rockets being fired out of Palestine and they're all getting detonated in the air, and then you realize, like, "Oh, this is, this is a, kind of a crazy situation." Like, one side has this insane technology and the other side is kind of in an open-air prison camp, in a way. Like, you can't go anywhere.

   2. AMAbby Martin2:27

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:27

      Y- you're kinda stuck.

   4. AMAbby Martin2:30

      25% of American Jews now, after the latest onslaught in Gaza, believe Israel's an apartheid state, and that, that shows you how dramatically the narrative has completely flipped on its head, because for the last 20 years, Israel's been losing control of dictating the narrative. I mean, that, that was really what they relied on for so long, that, "We're acting in self-defense. That we're surrounded by people who hate us and hypothetically will commit genocide against us," to basically defend the fact that they are committing de facto genocide in Gaza. That is the erasure of, of Gaza residents. It's the erasure of a culture. It's not just the extermination. That, that's according to the UN. But yeah, the, the tide has changed, Joe. They can no longer say that they're acting in self-defense over the last 20 years, with the bombardments, with the invasions, with the colonization outside of their borders. I mean, we're talking about Lebanon, Syria and the Golan Heights, and just constantly bombing an open-air prison. It is an open-air prison. There's two million people trapped there. They cannot leave without permits by the Israeli government or the collaborative government in Egypt. Those people are trapped. And then you look at Israel, they're living, they're, they're living high. High... You know, they're on the, they're on a... Living a great life. I mean, I saw some crazy-ass ad from Dior, like, of people, you know, basically just having this very ritzy time, you know, living in Tel Aviv, living in Jerusalem, and completely just separate from the fact that there is this besieged ghetto of two million people denied basic access to things like water and electricity. I mean, the right to have human mobility, I think, is like, the most basic right that you can have as a human being. Like, to leave and freely travel, and these people can't do that, and, and the media has completely painted it forever. The media's totally controlled, right? The media acts as an arm of, of the state, and for the longest time the media has basically just said, "Israel is right." They've only depicted the Israeli side of the story, and it doesn't matter anymore, because with the advent of social media, Palestinians are able to film their own reality for the first time. So they're filming the home demolitions, they're filming the ethnic cleansing, they're filming themselves getting bombed relentlessly for no reason other than collective punishment and torture of this area. And that is convincing the world, and actually bringing more people t- to their side. The sympathy is now going to Palestinians, where even Democratic voters... Um, a Gallup poll is taken every single year of Democratic Party voters and where they're at on the Israel-Palestine thing, and this year, for the first time in the history of the poll, more Democratic Party voters say that the m- pressure needs to be put on Israel than Palestine. And it's just because of this. It's because the narrative's changing, Joe, and, and they've lost the moral high ground here. They have targeted munitions that the US supplies to them. They choose to target entire families' homes. They choose to kill 14 members of one family sleeping in their bed at night, because maybe one person has ties to Hamas. Hamas has indiscriminate rocket fire because they don't have targeted munitions. Wrap your mind around that. One side has all the armaments in the world, supplied by the world's empire, and they actually direct these missiles towards sleeping families and civilian infrastructure and AP buildings.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:56

      Don't they let them know in advance when they're doing something like... Don't they drop leaflets and let 'em know that, that-

   6. AMAbby Martin6:01

      So that's what they, that's what they claim, that, "We're the most moral army in the world because we warn people in advance." I have contacts on the ground in Gaza that said that that is not true, and also, this was happening at night.... you're sleeping in bed.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:14

      Mm.

   8. AMAbby Martin6:15

      But they can use that and say, "Oh, no, we, we sent a 10-minute warning." And even if that were true, your entire home, you know, your entire... Like, some guy lost his wh- like, a bookstore that his, you know, his family has passed down from generations. That's all gone. All of these businesses, gone. You know? It's not just about people's lives tragically lost, it's about their livelihoods.

3. 6:38 – 10:36

   Hamas, the history of control, and what happens to nonviolent resistance

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:38

      And their counter is that Hamas is attacking them, and they're simply countering- counterattacking, right?

   2. AMAbby Martin6:44

      That is what they say all the time, and they have used Hamas governing the Gaza Strip as a reason since Hamas pushed Israeli settlers out back in the day, 15 years ago, as a reason to enact this medieval siege and tighten the noose every year, allow less and less people to leave, allow less and less water, bomb more and more factories. You know, all of these things that basically make life harder and harder. But the thing is, if you look at actually the history, the Israeli government facilitated Hamas to rise to power. They wanted Hamas to take control of the Gaza Strip so then they can use Hamas as this eternal enemy to collectively punish everyone there. And it's actually a war crime upon war crime upon war crime because this is indiscriminate bombing. 50% of people who live in Gaza are children, innocent children. That's 70 kids who just died in the last bombing campaign. These people are innocent. They have nothing to do with Hamas. But, Joe, it doesn't even matter what Gazans do, what Palestinians do to resist. Look at the Great March of Return, the documentary that I actually came on last time and talked about. It's now up for free, Gaza Fights for Freedom. Everyone can check it out on YouTube. YouTube's throttling it, but please check it out. This is what happens when Palestinians resist peacefully. Everyone says, "Where's the Palestinian Gandhi? Why don't they peacefully resist?" They are. They have been. They've largely abandoned violent struggle or- or armed resistance, which is actually internationally protected right for colonized people. But when they resist peacefully, in the tens of thousands, they were mowed down by Israeli snipers, Joe. And it doesn't matter what they do.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:25

      In the tens of thousands?

   4. AMAbby Martin8:27

      Tens of th- Not mowed down dead, but shot. Shot with exploding bullets from these snipers. 200 people died. 500 people were shot in the head. A lot of them did survive. We interviewed several of these people, medics, journalists, children. I mean, all of these people are protected categories under the Geneva Conventions. They were targeted and shot by Israeli snipers, and they were peacefully protesting. And that just shows you, it does not matter what they do. They will get met with the same brutality and violence.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:01

      So do you think it's a part of their culture? Is it, has something been ingrained in them that there's like this us-versus-them mentality and that they are the other, and that they don't- they don't think of them as the same?

   6. AMAbby Martin9:15

      Yeah, I mean, 73% of Israelis wanted the bombing to continue. You know, this was a completely indiscriminate bombing campaign that was leveling civilian infrastructure. We all saw those buildings fall like 9/11. I mean, this was a huge media tower that was leveled for no reason. There was no proof that Hamas was even in the building. This is part of a settler colonial attitude. You look at, you know, US institutions like our justice system and police force, you know, there's no doubt that there's racism when it comes to the disproportionality of people who are in prison, for example, in terms of African-Americans. Imagine if the US were colonizing native land and, you know, had- just subjugating these people today. That is what's happening in Israel. So, Israel is built upon ethnic cleansing and it continues to ethnically cleanse and colonize people every single day. This is an ongoing project.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:09

      What do you think they're trying to do? Do you think they're just trying to take over-

   8. AMAbby Martin10:12

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:12

      ... Palestine and just completely occupy it?

   10. AMAbby Martin10:15

       Yeah, they're trying to take over the land. That is why all of the Israeli authorities have abandoned the two-state solution a long time ago. Hamas even actually said that they would accept a two-state solution. In their latest charter, they said that they're willing to accept a two-state solution, but no Israeli authority has actually given that, you know, credence. They said- they've laughed off the notion.

4. 10:36 – 12:24

   Settler colonialism and the two-state map: how land fragmentation makes a state unviable

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:36

      Could- could you lay that out for people?

   2. AMAbby Martin10:37

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:37

      The two-state solution? So, what- what you're essentially saying is that Israel and Palestine at one point in time did not want to accept the existence of each other, right?

   4. AMAbby Martin10:50

      Well, so Israel was founded o- on top of Palestine, you know?

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:53

      Right.

   6. AMAbby Martin10:54

      But- but the original partition, which is the 1948 borders, um, that Israel has continued to take more than that. And so the West Bank is here. Gaza's a totally separate area. Gaza was kind of a surplus area for refugees that were basically expelled during the original foundation of Israel. And then you have Jerusalem, which is this international city center where people are supposed to coexist. So ever since 1948, Israel has continued to take more and more and more. And that's why you see that famous, like, you know, the quadrant of the four maps of Palestine, and more and more land has been atomized over time. In '67, they... Yep, exactly.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:35

      There it is. So-

   8. AMAbby Martin11:36

      In '67, they- they committed, you know, they went on a huge war of aggression and took, occupied the West Bank and Gaza under military occupation. And the West Bank today is- continues to be occupied under an Israeli military dictatorship where you cannot do anything.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:52

      For the people that are just listening-

   10. AMAbby Martin11:53

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       ... um, Jamie pulled up this map of, uh, Palestinian loss of land from 1946 to 2014. So it shows before-... Israel was decided, eh, w- before it was called Israel. It shows Palestine and then it shows Jewish land in Palestine, it's, like, these tiny little pockets, and then it shows the UN plan from 1947, which Israel takes over a big chunk. Mm-hmm. But then it gets much bigger in 1949, in 1967,

5. 12:24 – 14:37

   BDS explained—and the realities of occupation law: convictions, checkpoints, and impunity

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:24

      and then in 2014 it's most of, most of Israel is white, and the Palestinian part, which was, was green in the original map, it's all green, is now just a tiny few pockets. And those little pockets of land is basically where the West Bank is. So, when people say, "We want the two state solution..." And I'm not Palestinian, you know, I advocate BDS, which we can talk about, um, because I- What is-

   2. AMAbby Martin12:48

      BDS is the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions Movement, and it's what American allies and, you know, allies of Palestinians can do to try to advocate that human rights are restored. So, international law must be applied. Refugees must have the right to return, the occupation must end, and human rights must be distributed equally, which means apartheid must fall. So, those little specks of land that are dotted throughout the territory, that is what they say should be the Palestinian state. How could the Palestinian state exist if it's already taken over and atomized by settlements? And when I was on the ground in the West Bank, it's like, it's hard to wrap your mind around the reality of it until you're there and you have to go through these military checkpoints. People hear, "Oh, it's under military occupation," they think of, like, "Oh, there's a base, there's soldiers milling around." This is like fucking the US military in Iraq. This is dehumanizing, subjugating, humiliating occupation on a daily basis that you have to endure as a Palestinian, going from one place to the next. They set up giant concrete barricades blockading you, you, just to make your life miserable. If they find something on you that can be construed as a weapon, you go to prison. You don't have a right to tu- eh, there's a 99.9% conviction rate. You don't have freedom.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:05

      99.9%-

   4. AMAbby Martin14:06

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:06

      ... conviction rate?

   6. AMAbby Martin14:07

      If you're an Israeli settler, 'cause people say, "Oh, the PA controls parts of the, the West Bank." That's true, so they point to the fact that there is some sort of Palestinian authority throughout some of this territory, it's a very small amount. If you're an Israeli settler and you kill a Palestinian, you can't even get arrested. There's no s- there's no, like, direction that the PA could have to even arrest an Israeli settler. Settler just has all the rights and they're sanctioned by the state to do whatever the fuck they want, and they can walk around with guns, point

6. 14:37 – 22:22

   Sheikh Jarrah & Silwan: eviction-by-court-order, paid squatters, and demographic engineering

   1. AMAbby Martin14:37

      a gun to your head, expel you from your home. And, Joe, I don't know if you saw that crazy ass video that basically paints the picture of what I'm talking about right now, of a settler from New Jersey or Long Island saying, "Hey, if I don't take your home, someone else will." He's literally-

   2. JRJoe Rogan14:54

      What?

   3. AMAbby Martin14:54

      ... moving into a Palestinian's home in Jerusalem, which is supposed to be this shared center-

   4. JRJoe Rogan14:58

      How can we find this?

   5. AMAbby Martin15:00

      Check it out. Just look up... Yeah. Dude, it's unbelievable, this fucking guy who's just an American dude literally squatting in some Palestinian's house and he's just like, "Hey. Sorry. If I don't do it, someone else will. It's not my problem." And the people are just like, "Get out of my goddamn home."

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      So, how does an American settler get to do that in Israel? What is... Like, here, let's see.

   7. NANarrator15:21

      (energetic music plays) No one is allowed to steal it, (energetic music plays) .

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:26

      This Israeli settler is trying to take over a Palestinian family's home. Talked about-

   9. NANarrator15:31

      You know this is not your house.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:32

       Yes. But if I go, you don't go back. So, what's the problem? Why are you yelling at me? I didn't do this. I didn't do this.

   11. NANarrator15:38

       But he is-

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       Why are you not helping? It's easy to yell at me, but I didn't do this.

   13. AMAbby Martin15:40

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:40

       You are stealing my house. Whoa.

   15. AMAbby Martin15:44

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:47

       This neighborhood is home to 3,000 Palestinians m- many of whom are descendants, uh, now, uh, Israel, during the ethnic cleansing of 1948, Israel's been ordering the eviction of Palestinian families who've lived in... How do you say that?

   17. AMAbby Martin16:00

       Sheikh Jarrah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Sheikh Jarrah.

   19. AMAbby Martin16:02

       Yeah, fast-forward 'cause I think, there's a part where he's just like, "If I don't take it, someone else will." I don't know if it shows him.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       I think he- he did say that.

   21. AMAbby Martin16:07

       Oh, right, here at the end.

   22. NANarrator16:08

       (energetic music plays) You are stealing my house.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       And if I don't steal it, someone else will.

   24. AMAbby Martin16:13

       Yeah, so-

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       "If I don't steal it, someone else will."

   26. AMAbby Martin16:15

       So, Sheikh Jarrah is a flashpoint right now, so is Silwan. They're two flashpoints in Jerusalem. Um, basically they're just expelling hundreds of Palestinians from their homes in order to maintain an artificial majority of Israeli Jews. And it's not just Israeli Jews, it's, as you can see, American Jews who come and squat, and they're actually backed by NGOs. This guy's being paid to do that, he's being paid by US organizations and NGOs to go and squat in a Palestinian's home.

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       What is NGO? What's an NGO?

   28. AMAbby Martin16:45

       Like, a non-governmental organization. Like, a, just an organization that's backed by rich people who just say, "Okay, I'm gonna pay you. You go squat in this person's home and force them out."

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       So, w- how are they reinforcing this? Like, how does this guy get into there? What- what are they saying? Like, how is this... How are they trying to get these families to leave their houses?

   30. AMAbby Martin17:04

       So, there's a... This is the problem, is that there's a court order that's just totally fallaciously concocted by the Israeli court system because everything is discriminatory against Palestinians and everything is disenfranchised, geared toward pushing Palestinians out. So, they have this kind of, these concocted documents that they can use to be like, "Look, we have this court order, so therefore we need to push you out." The Palestinians are fighting it, but who's gonna win at the end, Joe? I mean, this is a demographic law that's in place which means that 70% of Jerusalem needs to be Israeli Jews. So, what happens when you have 31% who are Palestinian Arabs? They need to be expelled to maintain that artificial majority to maintain that demographic. Um, there's incredible twins, uh, brother and sister, Mohammed and Mona El-Kurd, who are filming their reality, they live in Sheikh Jarrah, they're filming real time settlers, like, like, in their home, trying to take it over forcibly.
7. 22:22 – 31:12

   Al-Aqsa clashes, pogrom-like violence, and how mainstream coverage frames triggers

   1. AMAbby Martin22:22

      harmony within this area," but it's not true at all. And even within 19- the 1948 borders, you saw mass mobs going, pulling people out of taxis, saying, "Are you Arab?" Beating the shit out of people in the streets. Uh, it was an ugly, ugly thing. And all of this preceded Ha- Hamas firing the first rocket in the latest onslaught. All of this preceded that. You had Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is the third holiest site in Islam, on fire, and thousands of Jewish Israeli settlers chanting, "Death to Arabs" and "Burn their memory," looking at this ancient and credible mosque in flames. And the new prime minister, Naftali Bennett, actually is part of this extremist settler movement who want- wants to a- basically take over Al-Aqsa and build a- a Jewish temple. And again, just imagine if thousands of Muslim extremists were chanting in front of an ancient synagogue, "Death to Jews." I mean, it's just- you just can't wrap your mind around it. Look at all the fucking hullabaloo over, um, Notre Dame on fire. People were throwing tens of millions of dollars and everyone was up in arms about it. But when Al-Aqsa's on fire and when they're attacking it with stun grenades and smoke bombs during Ramadan, no one cared.

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:42

      What- now what was that about? Why- why did they attack ... Uh, were they trying to find the people who did something? Like, what was the idea behind the smoke bombs and all that?

   3. AMAbby Martin23:51

      So they were attacking worshipers during Ramadan, which is a very holy time, and it was all in part of this onslaught, uh, in Sheikh Jarrah and these home dem- not home demolitions, but the forced expulsions, um, in Jerusalem and all the Pogroms. You saw, like, you know, thousands of people marching throughout the streets, chanting, "Death to Arabs," and it was a very, very scary time, so Palestinians rightfully were protesting. And they were protesting around Al-Aqsa and that's when the Israeli police attacked and started firing, uh, not live ammunition at that time, but they were firing smoke bombs and- and grenades and 100 worshipers or something had to go to the hospital that night.

   4. JRJoe Rogan24:28

      And so they did this into the mosque, but the people in the mosque weren't in the middle of protesting.

   5. AMAbby Martin24:33

      No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan24:33

      They were just worshiping.

   7. AMAbby Martin24:34

      They were just praying, yeah.And that's when Hamas fired the rocket.

   8. JRJoe Rogan24:37

      So, is- is it-

   9. AMAbby Martin24:39

      The first rocket.

   10. JRJoe Rogan24:39

       ... is it accurate to say that it's independent journalism that sort of forced this issue to be recognized the way it is now? And that-

   11. AMAbby Martin24:49

       100%. 100%, Joe.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:51

       'Cause I remember when you had those interviews, when you went over to Israel-

   13. AMAbby Martin24:54

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:54

       ... and you interviewed these people that had this very nonchalant attitude about "Just kill them all." And, you know, a lot of- there was a lot of pushback about that, I remember that. But I remember thinking, well, you- you'd be hard-pressed to find, uh, rational-looking people in America that would have that attitude about any group of people. Like, d- just go kill them, kill them all. Like, it would be very difficult. But you found a lot of people that were talking like that.

   15. AMAbby Martin25:25

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:25

       It wasn't just one or two.

   17. AMAbby Martin25:26

       People look at that, and people can check that out on, uh, Reporting From Palestine, our playlist on Empire Files, people should check that out. Because a lot of people will look at that and they'll say, "You cherry-picked these interviews."

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:36

       Right.

   19. AMAbby Martin25:36

       "You made these people look bad." Look, not only did we not cherry-pick the interviews, but like you just said, Joe, if you go to the Deep South and the most racist areas of the United States, sure, you'd find people who believe similar types of things, but how quickly would you find enough people all at once saying, "Kill all the Black people"?

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:55

       Right.

   21. AMAbby Martin25:55

       "Exterminate them, nuke them." I mean, that's some real genocidal rhetoric. There was even people laughing about it, and gleefully telling an American documentarian-

   22. JRJoe Rogan26:05

       Yeah.

   23. AMAbby Martin26:05

       ... knowing, on camera. I mean, if that's what you're willing to say on camera, what are you willing to say behind closed doors?

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:11

       So is this a c- just a... Do you think this is a culturally accepted perception of the val- the- the- the way they view Jewish people versus Palestinian people, and this is something that's been passed down?

   25. AMAbby Martin26:23

       Yeah. I mean, racism is palpable because of the situation that they're in. They are conditioned, born and bred hating Palestinians, otherizing Palestinians. You have forced, you know, segregation in schools. There's so many elements and layers to the racism, the deep-seated racism that exists in Israeli society, but really, ultimately, you have to, in order to accept the fact that you are a colonizer, that you are an oppressor and subjugating people just right across the way in this open-air prison, subjugating... Basically, five million Palestinians either live in Gaza or the West Bank, and they are being tortured and subjugated and oppressed every single day. And you have to be okay with that to a certain extent to be a proud Zionist, you know?

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:12

       Hmm.

   27. AMAbby Martin27:12

       I mean, that- that's- that's the problem.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:14

       Did you find anybody over there that w- was either pr- uh, any Israelis over there that were opposed to this line of thinking, opposed to this perception, opposed to the actions of Israel against the Palestinians?

   29. AMAbby Martin27:29

       There are definitely leftists in Israel, and I don't mean to say that there are not. Of course there are people trying to push back against the government, um, of course. You know? I don't know how many anti-Zionists there are, because why would you live in Israel? I know a lot of Israelis who have, like, you know, emigrated to Europe or America, because it just- it's just too much to live there and kind of be surrounded by this kind of mentality. Um, but, I mean, yes. Simple answer is yes, there are plenty of people there who disagree with the occupation, who maybe want the siege to be lifted on Gaza because it's too much, but I would say at the end of the day the vast majority agree with the whole premise of the colonial project. Um, and I do know that, you know, i- it's kind of dangerous to be an out... If I lived there, I would be in danger. Um, even B'tselem, which is a human rights organization that has openly declared Israel to be an apartheid state, they operate in Israel and they are in danger there.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:24

       Well, you probably-
8. 31:12 – 41:38

   U.S. leverage: conditioning aid, UN veto power, and the anti-BDS laws Abby sued over

   1. AMAbby Martin31:12

      So, I mean, I have an answer.

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:13

      Not, not a ... see, wasn't that, was n- that an AOC, like, gotcha question-

   3. AMAbby Martin31:18

      (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:18

      ... where they got ... what, remember that?

   5. AMAbby Martin31:19

      Yeah, and she backpedaled and said she didn't know enough to, to-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:22

      Yeah, well guess what?

   7. AMAbby Martin31:23

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:23

      No one knows enough. How the fuck do you fix that? There's not a goddamn solution. Like, what would you do, like imagine if you're a-

   9. AMAbby Martin31:29

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:29

       Imagine you are in the middle of a presidential debate, right? Abby, what would you do to resolve the conflict between Israel and Palestine?

   11. AMAbby Martin31:39

       I would condition ... and first of all, this is just my political face talking-

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:43

       Yes.

   13. AMAbby Martin31:43

       I think no aid should go to Israel, but I, uh, you know, pulling the Bern- Bernie Sanders card, he said he would condition all aid in accordance to international law, which goes back to the BDS thing, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:54

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AMAbby Martin31:54

       We want the occupation to be lifted, which flies in the face of international law. We want the right to return, and we want apartheid to fall, and once those things happen, once we have equal rights for everyone, then we can see where we're at.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:07

       So what is a-

   17. AMAbby Martin32:07

       But that is the source-

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:08

       What does that mean, like, "occupation, occupation lifted"?

   19. AMAbby Martin32:11

       ... of the conflict. So there's a brutal Israeli military dictatorship that's been imposed on the West Bank, and it has been since '67, and this is, uh, this is preventing people from organizing politically. I know people who've been in jail for years and years with no trial because they were an organizer. You know, they were politically active. You can't have weapons, you can be thrown in jail if you have anything on you that can be construed as a weapon, you can't convene in groups. You saw plenty of footage that came out of the last onslaught, and the last stuff that was going on, of people simply raising a flag, which is illegal under the Israeli military dictatorship. You cannot hold up a symbol of your culture and you will get arrested. Uh, you saw plenty of people getting attacked. F- you even saw, like, a six-year-old boy, like, getting arrested by the (laughs) Israeli military. I mean, it is-

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       For having a Palestinian flag?

   21. AMAbby Martin33:05

       For having a, for holding a Palestinian flag. It's wild stuff. So, Joe, I don't know if you knew this, but I just w- won a lawsuit. Um, this is fucking insane. I mean, this, this goes along with the whole BDS thing, but there are 30 states in the US that have passed legislation that says you cannot make money at a state institution as an independent contractor unless you sign a contract saying that you will never advocate the boycott of Israel, and never engage in the boycott of Israel.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:44

       Really?

   23. AMAbby Martin33:45

       Yes. 30 states in the US. This is the ultimate censorship. This is the black hand of the state coming down and enacting laws that says you cannot speak or advocate for this issue. This is a totally passive action. BDS is what brought down Jim Crow apartheid in the South, BDS is what brought down apartheid in South Africa, and BDS will inevitably b- inevitably bring down apartheid in Israel, but I was given such a contract. I was supposed to speak at Georgia Southern University, and I was given a contract that says, "You can never boycott the State of Israel, you can never advocate the boycott of Israel." And I was just like, "This is fucking mind-blowing because, uh, this is what I do." (laughs) I mean, this is, in part, you know, bringing attention to these issues, advocating BDS, and the whole conference fell apart, and, uh, I ended up suing Georgia. Uh, I sued them-

   24. JRJoe Rogan34:40

       The State of Georgia?

   25. AMAbby Martin34:41

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:41

       And you won?

   27. AMAbby Martin34:42

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Wow.

   29. AMAbby Martin34:44

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:44

       So you can go back?
9. 41:38 – 47:57

   Israel as U.S. outpost: ‘seven countries in five years’ and the logic of imperial partnerships

   1. AMAbby Martin41:38

      Well, Israel serves as an important outpost in the Middle East, just like Uganda does in Africa. Uh, uh, U- Uganda's neighbors with Somalia and Sudan, the two countries that W- what Wesley Clark said they wanted to topple during the Bush administration. So Uganda serves as that point in Africa. Colombia serves as our outpost in Latin America. Neighboring Venezuela, we pour tens of millions of dollars to, you know, militarize them and, and do all this shit there in the region. And Israel is our outpost in the Middle East, as well as Saudi.

   2. JRJoe Rogan42:11

      We should probably play that clip, 'cause that b- clip is very important.

   3. AMAbby Martin42:13

      It's unbelievable, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan42:14

      It's very ... See if you can find the Wesley Clark's US plan ... What, what year was that, 2007?

   5. AMAbby Martin42:19

      Oh my God. Yeah, just look up seven countries in five years.

   6. JRJoe Rogan42:22

      Yeah. It was somewhere in the early 2000s. Wesley Clark, who was a general, decorated general-

   7. AMAbby Martin42:28

      Yeah, high-ranking general.

   8. JRJoe Rogan42:30

      ... who was discussing what he knows of the world's plan-

   9. AMAbby Martin42:35

      And I mean, basically Israel-... serves as an important strategic partnership with the US military, because we can manage operations, we can use them as a battering ram and a military garrison out there.

   10. JRJoe Rogan42:47

       There's a video of it, Jamie, where you can hear Wesley. So, he's, uh, he's doing some sort of an interview. And he may be doing a recap.

   11. AMAbby Martin42:53

       Y- yeah. I think he's talking to Amy Goodman or something like that. Um, but-

   12. JRJoe Rogan42:57

       On Democracy Now?

   13. AMAbby Martin42:57

       ... look, it's a, it's a resource-rich-

   14. JRJoe Rogan42:58

       Yeah, you're right. That's it, right there.

   15. AMAbby Martin42:59

       ... region. Yeah, let's check it out.

   16. NANarrator43:00

       I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and, and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the joint staff who had used, used to work for me, and one of the generals called me. And he said, "Sir, you got to come in, you got to come in and talk to me a second." I said, "Well, you're too busy." He said, "No, no," he says, "you, we've made the decision we're going to war with Iraq." This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, "We're going to war with Iraq? Why?" (laughter) He said, "I don't know." (laughter) He said, "I guess they don't know what else to do." So, uh, I said, "Well, did they find some information collect- connecting Saddam to Al-Qaeda?" He said, "No, no," he says, "there's nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's like, we don't know what to do about terrorists, but we got a good military and we can take down governments." And, um, he said, "I guess if, uh, the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail." (laughter) So, I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time, we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He said... He reached over on his desk, he picked up a piece of paper and he said, "I just..." He said, "I just got this down from upstairs," meaning the Secretary of Defense's office, "today." And he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're gonna take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and finishing off Iran."

   17. JRJoe Rogan44:31

       Wild.

   18. AMAbby Martin44:32

       So yeah, I mean, this is a resource-rich-

   19. JRJoe Rogan44:34

       It's the truth.

   20. AMAbby Martin44:34

       ... region, you know? The Middle East is, is highly resource-rich. We wanted to stake our claim in the region, and Israel's the perfect outpost for that. And, you know, when Israel went on that war of aggression in '67, I think the US was like, "Hey, we can fucking use you. You've done, you've done well." And which, which actually is interesting, because a lot of people think the tail wags the dog, "Oh, Israel controls the US." No, it's very obviously that the US is using Israel for its military goals and regional domination, which means that it can be untenable, which means that we can make it inconvenient for the US to care about subsidizing Israel. They don't give a shit. You know, if th- if enough pressure is mounted, they will abandon the project. They have similar goals, but not congruent goals and interests. They don't care if Israel takes over all of Palestine. That doesn't really matter to the US political establishment.

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:29

       Do you think that part of the way this is all playing out is because of the fact that they're backed up by the United States, and the United States gives them, like, these crazy laws, like what you faced in Georgia? And they have these, sort of the attitude over here that, like, this is our, that's our guard dog over there. Like, we'll, we'll let this thing loose. We'll do whatever we can to support them, because we need them.

   22. AMAbby Martin45:52

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       We need them to protect our assets over there, and so we empower them in a wi- a wild way, like in, i- in not ever talking about these atrocities, and really kinda glossing over the things that you've highlighted.

   24. AMAbby Martin46:07

       Oh, 100%. I mean, it's totally subsidized by the US. And that's why d- during the Great March of Return, you saw these toothless resolutions passed by the UN being like, "We condemn Israel," and the US has veto power on the world stage. There's something called The Hague Invasion Act that says if you even try to indict US officials for war crimes, you can fucking be invaded by the US. I mean, there is so much power and domination from the US as the supplier and backer of these states, like Saudi Arabia and Israel, that no one can do anything about it until we act here.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:40

       Is there propaganda that the Israeli people are exposed to that ch- that gives them this perspective? Like, is there, uh, a concerted effort to try to demonize the people that live in Palestine? Do they try to, to do this to make it so that they do accept these sort of dehumanizing tactics?

   26. AMAbby Martin46:57

       Oh, hell yeah. I mean, absolutely. You know, it'd probably be the same propaganda that was given to Americans during Jim Crow. It's like, you don't, you know, you don't have the other side of the story.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:07

       Or to the Germans.

   28. AMAbby Martin47:08

       Oh my God, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       During World War II.

   30. AMAbby Martin47:09

       Of course. And that's really d- it's, it's a dark truth, but it is very similar. You know, I, one of the smears against me is that I compared Israel's tactics to Nazi Germany, and that's actually no longer controversial anymore. I mean, you just have to look at what they're doing today. And it... Even Holocaust survivors have said that this is... These are very similar mentalities and similar atrocities being carried out.
10. 47:57 – 1:01:08

    Manufacturing consent, media gatekeeping, and Abby’s RT experience (plus 9/11 unanswered questions)

    1. AMAbby Martin47:57

       100%. Part of the manufacturing of consent.

    2. JRJoe Rogan48:00

       Did you get... Yes, right? Did you get anybody from any mainstream, whether it's MSNBC or whoever, who wanted to talk to you about your work?

    3. AMAbby Martin48:11

       Not one person, Joe, and, and I think we know why. I'm persona non grata because of multiple reasons, the Russia media stuff. I worked for Russia Today. So, right off the bat-

    4. JRJoe Rogan48:22

       Yeah.

    5. AMAbby Martin48:22

       ... I'm a Russian disinformation agent no matter how long I'm out in the field independently operated and grassroots-funded.... I'm done.

    6. JRJoe Rogan48:30

       Well, you were working for Russia Today, and I think the, the way I was describing this to a friend, I said, "I bet they thought that if you got this woman who s- talks a lot of shit about-

    7. AMAbby Martin48:40

       (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       ... American imperialism, and you hire her for Russia Today, that'd be a pretty good scoop. You got this very articulate American woman who's talking shit about the American empire. Whoops, what is she saying about Crimea?"

    9. AMAbby Martin48:52

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan48:52

        Oh, no. Like, when you- (laughs) when she... And they're like, "Oh, no, this bitch-"

    11. AMAbby Martin48:57

        (laughs)

    12. JRJoe Rogan48:57

        "... like, hates all imperialism. Fuck, I thought she was on our side."

    13. AMAbby Martin49:00

        (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan49:01

        Like, you, when you started going a- against the, the, um, what, what Putin was doing in Crimea and then they invited you to go to Crimea and put shoes on the ground, you're like, "Get the fuck outta here." You, you knew your time there was-

    15. AMAbby Martin49:14

        Oh, it was-

    16. JRJoe Rogan49:14

        ... it was over.

    17. AMAbby Martin49:15

        It was up. Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan49:16

        Yeah.

    19. AMAbby Martin49:16

        It was up. I mean, what's funny about it is that my boss cared so much about just aesthetics. He was just obsessed about, like, the set. And, uh, he didn't even, like, he didn't even really care about, like, the politics. But what was interesting is that he got so much heat from what I did, from, I don't know, I think the higher-ups, I think half of them really liked what I did, 'cause I was pro- y- you know, I was trying to assert my editorial freedom in being like, "Look, this isn't just a Russian propaganda network. You need people out there who are criticizing-"

    20. JRJoe Rogan49:43

        Right.

    21. AMAbby Martin49:43

        "... Russia."

    22. JRJoe Rogan49:44

        Yeah.

    23. AMAbby Martin49:45

        So I think half the people were like, "Yeah. Let's do it." And th- the other half of the people were like, "Fuck no. You're done." And so, what happened was it just became impossible for me to do my job and, you know, um, I- I wasn't stepped on in terms of my editorial freedom, but, uh, but I think my boss never forgave me for making his job harder. And so-

    24. JRJoe Rogan50:05

        Well, up until that point though, that, what was interesting, and I remember talking to you about this job, they did not tell you what to do.

    25. AMAbby Martin50:11

        Never.

    26. JRJoe Rogan50:12

        You, you had a lot of editorial freedom, a lot of freedom to express yourself. You had, uh, freedom for your own opinions to be broadcast on RT, and that w- th- that's what you had. You had an, uh, you had an opinion show.

    27. AMAbby Martin50:26

        100%. and, and, people have this kind of false perception that they think... And this a- this is like with everything, right? It, it's politicians, it's journalists. They think that you get a job and then you're bought out and told by the bosses what to do and say. Sure, there's self-censorship, but they buy into your agenda. You don't get paid by RT to start talking shit about America, you know. I k- I knew my place. I knew obviously I served the editorial line of the broader network, you know, just like Chris Hedges does, just like Lee Camp does. A lot of these people are radical leftists and they, they talk a lot of truth. And they are not stepped on at all. They are completely untouched by management.

    28. JRJoe Rogan51:09

        Is Lee Camp still at RT?

    29. AMAbby Martin51:10

        He is, yeah. He's still doing-

    30. JRJoe Rogan51:11

        Yeah.
11. 1:01:08 – 1:10:06

    Yemen, Iran, and the forever-war machine: short-term profit vs. long-term catastrophe

    1. AMAbby Martin1:01:08

       You know? It really is. And these things are administered with such extreme levels of cognitive dissonance. Like the Yemen war, I mean, it's unbelievable, um, how that was started, and Obama's a war criminal for that alone. You know? And, and no one actually gives him the credit for starting that, and it's still going on and it's absolutely horrifying, but-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:28

       Can you explain why th- what happened there?

    3. AMAbby Martin1:01:30

       (sighs) Yeah, without getting into the depressing nature, 'cause I know I tend to, to get t- go too hard, you know?

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

       Do you?

    5. AMAbby Martin1:01:36

       This isn't for everyone, you know what I mean? Like, th- e- what I do at Empire Files, it's not for everyone. It's for people who want to go down the rabbit hole with me, take the red fucking pill and come down the journey with me.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:47

       That word's been co-opted-

    7. AMAbby Martin1:01:47

       It's depressing. It has.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:48

       ... uh, unfortunately.

    9. AMAbby Martin1:01:49

       It has, sadly.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:50

        Too bad.

    11. AMAbby Martin1:01:50

        But it's-

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

        By dorks.

    13. AMAbby Martin1:01:51

        ... it's kind of true. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

        (laughs) They stole it. Because it's, it's such a-

    15. AMAbby Martin1:01:55

        The Matrix still holds up, man.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

        Yeah.

    17. AMAbby Martin1:01:56

        I just watched that the other day.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:57

        Oh, it's a fucking great movie.

    19. AMAbby Martin1:01:58

        It's, it's unbelievable.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:59

        Fucking great movie. And, and-

    21. AMAbby Martin1:01:59

        It's an unbelievable movie.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

        ... eerily, like, it, it, it, it's eerily foreshadows what may be to come. Like, w- I think-

    23. AMAbby Martin1:02:07

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

        ... there's a r- very real chance that 100 years from now, 200 years from now, whatever it is, we could be living like that. We could just have a-

    25. AMAbby Martin1:02:14

        (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

        ... fucking bolt-

    27. AMAbby Martin1:02:15

        Right.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

        ... clubbed into the back-

    29. AMAbby Martin1:02:17

        Right.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

        ... of your head and that is how you interface with this amazing world where you're a superhero.
12. 1:10:06 – 1:29:48

    Earth’s Greatest Enemy: the Pentagon’s pollution footprint, toxic bases, and ‘individual blame’ propaganda

    1. AMAbby Martin1:10:06

       Even environmentalists, and we're making a new documentary, um, called Earth's Greatest Enemy. You can check it out at Earth's Great- earthsgreatestenemy.com. But it's basically about the environment, and it's about how the US military is one of the largest polluters in the world, and it is the largest polluting industry. And why don't environmental organizations talk about this?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:10:29

       The US military is one of the most... They, they, they... What do they do to pollute? Like, explain...

    3. AMAbby Martin1:10:35

       All right. So, um, so our trailer's up. I don't know if you-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:38

       Let's watch it.

    5. AMAbby Martin1:10:39

       ... you still play videos. Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:40

       Okay.

    7. AMAbby Martin1:10:40

       It's, it's cool. It's only two minutes. Earth's Greatest Enemy. Jamie's on that shit so hard.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:47

       Earth's Greatest Enemy isn't Godzilla?

    9. AMAbby Martin1:10:48

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:10:49

        That looks like Godzilla.

    11. AMAbby Martin1:10:50

        I know, right?

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:10:51

        Oh, that shit was crazy.

    13. AMAbby Martin1:10:52

        Dude, that was nuts, man.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:10:52

        The Gulf of Mexico with- when... How does the ocean catch on fire? All right, let's play this.

    15. AMAbby Martin1:11:00

        There's no longer any debate to be had.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:11:02

        What a voice.

    17. AMAbby Martin1:11:03

        Our planet is on a collision course with disaster.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:06

        Urgent warning.

    19. NANarrator1:11:07

        Dangerous record-breaking heat.

    20. AMAbby Martin1:11:09

        We're now living in the early stages. Terrifying signs of things to come. Mass displacement, deaths, and extinctions are already here. Whether the planet can remain habitable for human beings has become a haunting question.

    21. NANarrator1:11:25

        Climate change protests happening right now. Part of a global call for action.

    22. AMAbby Martin1:11:30

        We know there are many culprits: corporations, policy makers, mass consumption. But what if there was one single entity that by itself will bring planetary collapse? One single organization, one single enemy that not only produced enough toxic destruction to destroy the planet on its own, but was also subject to virtually no regulations, no oversight, no accountability, and as of yet, no blame? If there was a monster like that, shouldn't it be dragged out of the dark and into the center of the struggle to save the planet? (dramatic music)

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:12:39

        Here's the awful truth: even if every person, every automobile, and every factory suddenly emitted zero emissions, the Earth would still be heated tor- headed towards total disaster for one major reason: (whispers) the Pentagon.

    24. AMAbby Martin1:12:53

        (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:12:54

        This is heavy. Earth's greatest enemy.

    26. AMAbby Martin1:12:58

        So, this is gonna be all completely grassroots funded. I'm working with Dar Jamal. He is- he was one of the first embedded reporters in Iraq, um, an incredible investigative journalist who's on the tip of the spear of climate change research. So, here's the pitch, real quick. That quote is from Barry Sanders, who wrote The Green Zone. Uh, through his extensive research in 2009, he found that even if all of those things were halted, the US military alone, as an institution would still cause enough carbon emissions to cause a lot of the climate change that we're seeing.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:13:35

        What percentage of the climate change w- th- the carbon emissions are caused by the US military?

    28. AMAbby Martin1:13:40

        Um, I don't know the actual percentage on the planet, but it's like 100 and something countries put together. Um, and-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:13:46

        Really?

    30. AMAbby Martin1:13:46

        But it's so much bigger. Like, for example, a B-52 bomber produces as much carbon emissions as one car driving for seven years. Like, it's just fucking outrageous. Think about it: we have 800 military bases, plus the lily pads we don't know about. What are those places doing to pollute? It goes so far beyond emissions, though. So far beyond emissions. But you can just like, look at just our- our- the equipment, you know? The equipment at these bases, not to mention what war does.

Episode duration: 2:44:39