Joe Rogan Experience #1701 - Rhonda Patrick

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) All right, we're up. What's happening, Rhonda?

Rhonda Patrick 0:15 Hey.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Very good to see you.

Rhonda Patrick 0:16 Good to see you. It's been a year.

Joe Rogan 0:18 It has been. It's been quite a while.

Rhonda Patrick 0:20 Really. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:20 And, uh, you were just telling me that you're 13 days into keto.

Rhonda Patrick 0:24 I am. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:25 How you feeling?

Rhonda Patrick 0:26 Well, let's start off with like why do I even wanna do keto? Why now?

Joe Rogan 0:30 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 0:30 I mean, like this has been how many years that it's been trendy, it's been like there's lots of benefits, and it's like why did I start trying it out now? (laughs) Well, um, I've noticed that when I am in a fasted state, so when I'm in ketosis, when I'm, you know, burning fatty acids and making ketone bodies and using them as energy, I'm like on top of my mental game. So, I've been doing ... Like when I have any sort of like podcast interviews I'm doing, or whatever, you know, I'm always trying to do them fast. Like I'm fasted right now. Um, and so I thought to myself like is this something that could be mimicked by a ketogenic diet? Like it's very noticeable for me, where I can stay focused. Um, I have more endurance. So like I don't like, you know, crap out like, like a couple hours-

Joe Rogan 1:21 More mental- mental endurance.

Rhonda Patrick 1:22 Mental endurance, sorry.

Joe Rogan 1:23 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:23 Yeah. More- more ment- mental endurance. So um, so I decided to try it out and I- I recently had a, uh, neuroscientist on the podcast, Dr. Mark Matsen. Have you heard of him?

Joe Rogan 1:33 No.

Rhonda Patrick 1:34 He's like legendary. I mean, he's probably one of the most cited neuroscientists, but he's most well known for his intermittent fasting studies, like the 5:2 intermin- intermittent fasting stuff came out of his lab. Um, he's also sort of the father of hormesis and like, like why, you know, humans sort of adapted to be in a stressful environment and how, you know, all these stress response pathways that happen, you know, as a response that are beneficial. But anyways, so he was, um, talking about like when you're in a fasted state, when you haven't eaten, how your nervous system has sort of evolved to become like more focused, more alert.

Joe Rogan 2:12 Mm.

Rhonda Patrick 2:12 And that's adaptive because if you can't find food, you have to be like alert in order to like eat or else you'll die. So um, so he's talking about like one of the main things that happens is this metabolic switch, wh- is what he calls but ... Um, so you- you do switch from burning glucose, you know, as a source of energy to basically f- you know, fatty acids are mobilized from your adipose tissue and go to your liver and you start to like oxidize them, use them for energy, and then you make something called ketone bodies as- as a byproduct, beta-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate. And um, most people think about these, well, this is an alternative source of energy, across the blood-brain barrier. It, you know, is easily used by, um, you know, neurons and- and other cells as well, but it's- it's actually an energetically favorable source of energy. So it actually requires energy to use glucose as energy. (laughs) To make energy from glucose requires energy. But beta-hydroxybutyrate, that doesn't happen. Like it goes into the mitochondrion and it's used without that energy requirement. So you can imagine-

Joe Rogan 3:21 Can you explain how that works? Like, uh, the ... You use energy to use glucose?

Rhonda Patrick 3:25 Yeah, so glucose gets broken down into something called pyruvate. And pyruvate ... So it takes energy to do that and then pyruvate has to be transported into the mitochondria through a like active transport mechanism. And that requires energy to do that. Once it gets into the mit- ... Pyruvate gets into the mitochondria, it's then used through what's called the TCA cycle to make energy. Um, ac- acetyl ... So beta-hydroxybutyrate gets converted into acetyl-CoA and beta-hydroxybutyrate can just go in without like this active transport mechanism, so you're not requiring that energy to transport it in. Does that make sense?

Joe Rogan 4:00 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 4:00 So you're making energy but you're not using as much energy to make that energy. So um, that's kind of like what, you know, most people are thinking about is this. This sort of metabolic switch that happens. And you can imagine most people never do that. Like I- I typically ... I was, you know, doing ... I do a lot of time-restricted eating where I'll eat my food anywhere between eight to 10 hours and then I'm fasting anywhere between like 14 to 16 hours a day. And in order to actually go into this metabolic switch you have to deplete all of your glycogen levels in your liver and muscle. Um, and that usually takes anywhere between 13 to 36 hours depending on the person's carbohydrate intake, on their physical activity. And so um, you know, most people never get that metabolic switch. Most people are just constantly burning, using glucose and then when you're doing that, any fat that you're taking in gets stored as triglycerides in adipose tissue. So they're always in this like fat storage state instead of a fat burning state, right? And so um, 'cause most people are eating three meals a day and plus snacks, uh, you just ... You never get there. So um, with the- with the, you know, my s- ... You know, anywhere between 14 to 16 hours is what I typically was- was doing, I'd notice that like I was really mentally sharp. And so as I extended that out a little bit, it was like really clear to me that like not eating was like good for my brain in terms of like, like I felt smarter, I felt like focused more.

Joe Rogan 5:32 Mm.

Rhonda Patrick 5:32 Like it was- it was noticeable, like- like a nootropic effect, right? And so um, one of the other things that's probably less well known about beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is one of the major circulating ketones you do make when you're in ketosis, is that it is actually a signaling molecule and this was shown by Dr. Eric Verdin. He's uh, he runs the Buck- Buck Institute for Aging in Novato, California. Um, he showed, back when he was at UCSF, that beta-hydroxybutyrate activates-... like many different genes, one of them including brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF, which I know we've talked about before on the podcast. But that's something that is critical for, you know, forming new synapses and for learning and memory. I mean, there's... it's... there's all sorts of things that it does. But beta-hydroxybutyrate's activating that. Like, it's not just something that's being used as energy. Like, it's ch- like changing gene expression. Um, so, so that got me really interested. It's like, wow, this is something that, like, could be possibly also activating BDNF, maybe that's partly why. I mean, it's a hypothesis, but, you know, it seems, it seems like something that people could test, and it seems kind of, you know... it makes sense, right?

Joe Rogan 6:46 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 6:47 Um, and so, uh, so that was something that I was like, "Wow, what if I could do..." So, I a- so I asked Dr. Mattson, I was like, "What are..." You know, there's lots of, you know, differences between being in a fast-induced ketosis and a ketogenic diet, but there's also a lot of similarities, and the similarities are, one, you're making lots of beta-hydroxybutyrate if you do the ketogenic d- diet, right? We can talk about that (laughs) . But, um, and so, I was like, "Wow, well maybe..." And then the other thing that's o- that overlaps between the two is that you produce a lot of GABA. GABA's the, the neurotransmitter that's typically more of an inhibitory type of neurotransmitter. Um, I'm, I'm sure, uh, Doc- Dr. Dom D'Agostino's talked about this. I think I even re- remember him talking-

Joe Rogan 7:27 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 7:27 ... about it before, um, that the GABA is increased on both, you know, ketogenic diet and when you're in, like, a fasting-induced ketosis. And GABA is, um, you know, it kind of has an anxiolytic effect, so like helps calm you a little bit, but also seems to affect, uh, and this is what, uh, you know, some researchers think the reason why a ketogenic diet is so beneficial for, like, drug-resistant epilepsy, is through GABA, because it quiets down the neurons that have been excited through glutamate. So like, right now, we're like having an intelle- intellectual discussion, and we're like engaged, intellectually engaged, and so glutamate's being fired, right? And, um, it can do a lot of damage, like glutamate having this, like, constant electrical activity, like very stimulating, you need something... Like, if you didn't have GABA, you'd fry your brain, like without it, like with too much glutamate. So, it can cause something called excitotoxicity. And so GABA kind of counters that, and, um... So anyways, some of the things that I'm noticing

Rhonda Patrick 8:28 now that I've been on day 12 or 13, um, for one, it's been incredibly hard. So I've been measuring my ketone, my beta-hydroxybuty- butyrate levels, um, daily, sometimes more than, you know, once a day, of course. And to be in, like, mild ketosis, you know, like, l- legitimately mild ketosis, like, I think, you know, you wanna be somewhere between like .9, 0.9, and, um, like 1.2. I mean, that's like m- mild or moder- mild to moderate. And I can't tell you how difficult it's been for me to first get to that point. Uh, it took several days, and it's, like, I think people, (laughs) probably like 90% to 98% of people that are, think they're doing a ketogenic diet, they're not (laughs) because-

Joe Rogan 9:17 Really?

Rhonda Patrick 9:18 I think so, yes. Because I... it's not just enough to do carb restriction, and, like, you need a lot of fat. Like, you need, especially in the beginning, like, if your body... Like me, so I've always, you know, for the most part, my diet has been what you would call Paleo-ish, you know? I would, you know, like, I would have my protein and vegetables, and I rev- I've, I've generally speaking avoin- avoid, like, the refined stuff, refined carbohydrates, refined sugars, right? Um, but I do eat vegetables, which are carbohydrates, and I also eat some fruits. Um, and so, my body's used to, like, metabolizing the glucose and doing that whole pathway, you know, we were talking about, like, from carbohydrates. And the fat that I'm getting mostly probably is being, being stored, honestly, as triglycerides, but, um, it takes a while for your body to switch to that. And, um, I was surprised how long, because I thought, "Well, I don't eat all of that refined stuff, so it should be easy. It's just a little..." Like, it has been a huge challenge. And you read about all these foods that are like, okay, vegetables that are keto-friendly, you know, like cauliflower or, uh, Brussels sprouts or a little bit of spinach or... Like, I will eat, like, just a little bit of sauteed spinach, and it'll take me f- I will be at like 1.2 millimolar, and it'll take me down to, like, point, .7, um, you know? So it'll kick me out, just a little bit of something. And, and if I'm not eating enough fat, like, I can't even, like, get... So I finally was able to... Now I'm, like, doing, like, butter in my coffee, and I'm just, like, trying to get, like, olive oil in everything, and MCT oil in my coffee, and just, like, lots and lots of fat. When I started doing that, I was able to get up to, like, 2.2 millimolar, which is, like, good ketosis. And, um, and then, like, I would, you know, like I came here, traveling is really hard. I ordered, you know, I ordered some, like, I had a steak, and then it was some kind of cauliflower mash with, like, cheese and bacon, and that kicked me down to, like, 0.4, like, I was so upset. Checked my mil-

Joe Rogan 11:20 So it's just the cauliflower, or is it-

Rhonda Patrick 11:22 Just the carbohydrate and the lack of not having as much oil, I think. Like-

Joe Rogan 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 11:25 So, like, I have the protein, so you can convert... So the thing, like, there are what's called glucogenic amino acids, and, um, those can be converted into glucose. Your body has a way... You, you need, you need glucose. Like, you can't, like, your red blood cells don't have mitochondria. The only source of energy they can use is from glucose. Your brain, you know, your astrocytes, and they're supporting cells in your brain, are mostly glycolytic, they mostly use glucose. You need, you need glucose. So your body has mechanisms to make it, you know, your, you can make it from these glucongeni- neogenic amino acids, which are in protein, or you can make it from glycerol, which is like the background of a tri- triglyceride, but, you know, I think...... once you become adapted, and this is something that I know, like, Dr. D'Agostino has talked about a lot, where he's got more of, like, a modified ketogenic diet, but he's been in it for, like, years. (laughs) You know? He's, like-

Joe Rogan 12:18 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 12:18 ... done a ketogenic diet for, like, years. And, like, h- he can eat something that it's, like, a lot more, like, you can have the protein and, and the, and the, like, keto-friendly carbohydrates, like the leafy greens, you know, that are not, like, super carb.

Joe Rogan 12:31 And it won't kick him out.

Rhonda Patrick 12:33 Yeah. He seems... Because he's, like, adapted. But in... You know, you read all these recipes. Like, "I'm going online. I'm trying to do keto recipes and all this," and it's, like, none of them work. None of them work. All the stuff that you, like, find in the store that says keto on it, totally not. Totally not. Like-

Joe Rogan 12:48 Really?

Rhonda Patrick 12:48 Oh, yeah, because they have too much carbohydrates and not enough fat. It's like... And then they do this thing with this net carb, the net carb, you know, fiber. I'm telling you, like, if people were to measure their blood levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate, they would, they would know. Like, this, it's not-

Joe Rogan 13:02 And what is the best way to do that? Is the best way to do it through ketone strips? Is the best way to do it through, like, a breathalyzer-type deal? Blood?

Rhonda Patrick 13:09 I personally always think blood is the best. I'm not an expert. I mean, like, I haven't actually done a deep dive on all the different methods. Personally, I, you know, I like, like if you're measuring glucose, for example, like, blood is more accurate than, like, interstitial fluid area, like... So, I like to use this, you know, precisi- precision extra that you can get, and you can get these ketone, ketone strips. Um, and they're, they're actually a lot cheaper than they were, like, a few years ago. They used to be really expensive. And I just, I do that. Um, and I think that's the way I prefer. I mean, maybe there's some accuracy in some of the other ones, but I don't really know, honestly.

Joe Rogan 13:46 Is there any, um, benefit to using exogenous ketones?

Rhonda Patrick 13:50 So, um, (laughs) I'll tell you what I think the benefit is (laughs) . It's probably not w- not something you're gonna expect. So, I've tried exogenous ketones many times, beta-hydroxybutyrate ester. The salts are like, the salts, like, I'm sure, like, Dr. D'Agostino has talked about that as well, like, they don't really ... they don't work as well, like, in terms of, like, actually raising you up to a millimolar level in terms of-

Joe Rogan 14:12 So, what i- what is the difference in the actual name of the c- like, the supplements, like the salts would be-

Rhonda Patrick 14:17 Salts would be, like, a salty powder thing-

Joe Rogan 14:19 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 14:19 ... that you, like, add, and the ketone ester will be a liquid.

Joe Rogan 14:21 Okay.

Rhonda Patrick 14:22 It'll be a liquid. And there's-

Joe Rogan 14:23 So the liquid is more effective than the salts?

Rhonda Patrick 14:25 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:25 The salts are not very effective at all?

Rhonda Patrick 14:26 Not very much at all. And plus, they, like, can give you GI distress and stuff, and a lot of them have a lot of either sodium or calcium depending on what it's-

Joe Rogan 14:33 Mmm.

Rhonda Patrick 14:33 ... complex to. But, so, um, one of the things that's interesting about the beta-hydroxybutyrate exogenous ketone esters, and I've tried a different... a few different brands, they all pretty s- work pretty well. Um, they'll raise you up, like if you d- if you, for example, if you drink, like, the whole serving, most of them are, like, 30 ml, they can take you from zero to, like, 3.3 millimolar like (snaps fingers) that.

Joe Rogan 14:56 Oh.

Rhonda Patrick 14:56 I mean, like, ketosis that I haven't been able to achieve yet from 12 or 13 days of a ketogenic diet. And so, um, you can experience some of the, like, effects, but it also has the effect of lowering your blood glucose at the same time. And it's like, this is something that researchers are actually looking into, like, "Oh, this could potentially help people that can't regulate their blood sugar levels," you know?

Joe Rogan 15:19 And this is only through exogenous-

Rhonda Patrick 15:21 This is... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:22 ... ketones?

Rhonda Patrick 15:23 The k- like-

Joe Rogan 15:23 The esters?

Rhonda Patrick 15:24 The exogenous ketone esters, yes. I have not-

Joe Rogan 15:26 So it lowers your blood glucose and-

Rhonda Patrick 15:27 Dramatically.

Joe Rogan 15:28 Wow.

Rhonda Patrick 15:29 But the, the problem with that is they're very short-lived. They're very transient. So, like, every time I've done it, l- like, they wear off, like, two hours max. Two hours max.

Joe Rogan 15:41 Hmmm.

Rhonda Patrick 15:41 The problem is your blood glucose is also dramatically lower, and if you don't eat, if you don't, like, replenish that, like, you can crash hard. Like-

Joe Rogan 15:49 Hmmm.

Rhonda Patrick 15:49 ... you can crash hard 'cause you have no beta-hydroxybutyrate around as the energy source. Now, whereas you're in ketosis, actual ketosis, your blood sugar levels are lower, but you're making beta-hydroxybutyrate, right?

Joe Rogan 16:01 Would, would there be a benefit to do that, like say, if you were gonna do something that was, like, mentally taxing, if you're gonna take a test or something like that? Would there, would there be a benefit in taking exogenous ketones?

Rhonda Patrick 16:11 So I have... I used to kind of use them that way. Uh, but again, if you don't... It's short lived, and if you-

Joe Rogan 16:17 Would you take it with some sort of glucose?

Rhonda Patrick 16:19 I used to take it with carbohydrates. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:21 Like fruits or something?

Rhonda Patrick 16:22 Like oatmeal or fruit.

Joe Rogan 16:23 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 16:23 Exactly. Um, eh, but even that, like, you know, your blood glucose will peak, and then two hours later, it's gonna go back down. So you still... You need to, like, keep that source going.

Joe Rogan 16:32 Hmmm.

Rhonda Patrick 16:32 Um, so, and I've... and I noticed that, like, several times. It was like, "Oh, this is good for a very..." Really, the peak of it was, like, an hour.

Joe Rogan 16:40 And is there-

Rhonda Patrick 16:40 Y-

Joe Rogan 16:40 ... when you take these, um, ketone esters, is there a number of them? Like, is there an amount you can take in a day or the amount of times you can take it in a day? Can you only do it once? Like-

Rhonda Patrick 16:50 People... I mean, some of these, um, companies that make them claim you can do it more than once a day. I know people that do it. Um, personally, I think the benefit of the ketone ester is, and I'll tell you what I've used it for. I tried the mental stuff, but... So, um, getting someone who you think will benefit from ketosis, from a ketogenic diet, getting them to do it. Like, it... This diet's hard. It is hard. (laughs) It's hard. I can't, like... Like, emphasize it, like actually doing it, like, I'm telling you, I think people are... think they're doing it, and they're not. What they're doing is just a low, low, low carb diet. It's different.

Joe Rogan 17:24 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 17:25 Um, anyways, so like, convincing someone to do it is diff- diff- difficult, like very difficult. And so if you give them the exogenous ketone ester, they can experience, "Oh, I would feel this way. I would feel this way more often if I could," you know, first of all, initially do the ket- ketogenic diet. So I did this with my mom. So my mom has two types of motor dysfunction tremors. She has essential tremor, which is the kind of tremor where like, you know, you kinda just shake, like when you're doing something or grabbing like a s- you know, some spoon or whatever. Um, and then she has orthostatic tremor, which is like tremoring... tremors like where she st- if she stands still, like her legs shake really fast. So she can walk fine, but if she's standing, it's really hard. So she has to, like, not stand, she has to sit-

Joe Rogan 18:11 Hmmm.

Rhonda Patrick 18:11 ... or walk or move.And with all the research on, on the effects of ketogenic diets on epilepsy, and then there's so- also some data, and, um, Dr. Matz- Matzon talked about this with me because he actually worked with the late Richard Veech on this, who was, like, the guy who invented the ket- ketone ester. Um, they're showing that it helps with, like, Parkinson's disease in animal models, Alzheimer's disease, like, and that's, you know, something that's a little different than motor dysfunction. But, um, so I wa- I ga- I, you know, I wanted to give her this, this ketone ester to say, "Look, the ketogenic diet may be beneficial for you, let's see." And it absolutely helped mostly with her essential tremor, uh, but she noticed a little bit of an effect with orthostatic. Now, of course, there's always the p- placebo. You can't placebo this. It tastes like shit. Like, you can't, like... I mean, maybe you could, but it's hard to come up with a placebo. I mean, people drinking this are like, "Okay, I'm (laughs) getting ketone ester."

Joe Rogan 19:05 Yeah, I've tasted it.

Rhonda Patrick 19:06 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:06 It's rough.

Rhonda Patrick 19:07 Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of like-

Joe Rogan 19:09 Gasoline.

Rhonda Patrick 19:10 There's always that, right? Yeah. So, um, so she's done this enough times, it also helped with her migraines.

Joe Rogan 19:17 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 19:17 Like, so, uh, and there's, there's, like, literature, a body of literature out there where it helps. Ketogenic diet's been shown to help with migraines, both prevention and treatment. And then there's, like, one study showing ketone ester can help, uh, with migraines as well. I mean, they're, like, not, like, the best done, you know. I mean, there's, again, there's no placebo and all that, so you have to, like, take it with a grain of salt. But she's now been on the ketogenic, ketogenic diet with me, and, um, she's having the darnedest time g- getting into ketosis too. Like, and she's not doing the butter and the coffee and, like, the, all the, like, fat. Like, I'm t- I'm just really trying to get as much fat as I can.

Joe Rogan 19:52 W- how is she doing it?

Rhonda Patrick 19:53 Well, she's eating... She's been eating the same meals. So, like... And she's a, a person that was like, "Refined carbs, woo-hoo!" You know?

Joe Rogan 20:02 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 20:03 Like, I mean, she's, like, someone that I've had to work hard on to, um, get her to stop drinking s- sugar-sweetened beverages, you know? Like, she thinks it fixes her migraine and-

Joe Rogan 20:15 Coca-Cola?

Rhonda Patrick 20:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:17 She would say it fixes her migraines?

Rhonda Patrick 20:18 Yeah, it does. Like-

Joe Rogan 20:19 Does it?

Rhonda Patrick 20:21 According to her. I mean... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:23 (laughs) Is there any reason why it would do that?

Rhonda Patrick 20:24 Maybe some caffeine, the caffeine's been shown to help.

Joe Rogan 20:27 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 20:27 Um, also potentially, like, if she's having, like... If sh- if sh- if glucose is having a hard time getting into her brain and being used by her neurons, like maybe that sh- sh- you know, huge sugar rush from the Coke is gonna help. All the more reason, like, there's been, you know, there's been evidence, both animal and some early clinical evidence, that basically you can take someone with, like, early dementia. And, and the sign, some... One of the earliest signs actually of both Alzheimer's disease and, and, um... I'm not so sure if it's also dementia, but definitely Alzheimer's disease, is impaired glucose, like brain use of glucose. Like people, like their neurons and stuff are not using glucose well. And so, like, naturally, of course, beta-hydroxybutyrate would be an alternative to that, you know? So, so, um, anyways, uh, what was I getting at? Oh, yeah, basically there, th- there could be some effect with the glucose rush for her ca- well, for her headache thing. Um, but again, the exogenous ketones worked, they did.

Joe Rogan 21:31 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 21:31 And so, like, I've been... Sh- I've given it to her and she's been wanting to do k- this is, this is... We've known this for like a ye- over a year, and she's been wanting to do the ketogenic diet, and I think it just finally took me doing it to, like, get her to start it, 'cause like-

Joe Rogan 21:43 Does she live in the ne- same neighborhood as you?

Rhonda Patrick 21:45 No. No, she's close. I mean, she's in the same city.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Okay.

Rhonda Patrick 21:47 'Cause she comes and helps out with, like, my son. Um, so she's at my house, like-

Joe Rogan 21:51 So you can-

Rhonda Patrick 21:52 ... three or four days a week.

Joe Rogan 21:52 ... help show her what foods to eat-

Rhonda Patrick 21:54 Foods, yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:55 ... and what are you trying to get her to eat, like, specifically?

Rhonda Patrick 21:57 Well, right now we've been... I've been so busy and so I've been, like, doing the lowest hanging fruit in terms of (laughs) what's, like, the least amount of work.

Joe Rogan 22:06 Bacon.

Rhonda Patrick 22:07 Bacon. I've got a bunch of bacon in my purse right now. I s-

Joe Rogan 22:10 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 22:10 ... just because I gotta catch a flight after this and I'm fasted, I'm like, "I gotta eat something before I get on the plane." Anyways.

Joe Rogan 22:15 What about beef tallow? Do you ever just-

Rhonda Patrick 22:17 I haven't... I'm going-

Joe Rogan 22:17 ... scoop out beef tallow?

Rhonda Patrick 22:19 Not yet. Not yet. But, like, so, so what I've been doing just these past, like, you know, 12 or 13 days is what I thought was gonna, like, really get me in ketosis and be a ketogenic diet, which was like protein, avocado, olive oil drip- drizzled all over it, like some of the high-fat, low-carb nuts, like pecans and macadamia nuts. Um, and, and then I thought, "Oh, well..." You know, you know me, like, micronutrients, I need the magnesium, I need... So avocados are great, they're giving you a lot of stuff like potassium, but the magnesium, which I'm now supplementing with, is something that's been hard to get without my leafy greens. And my leafy greens have been, like, kicking me out (laughs) of ketosis. So I have to rest-

Joe Rogan 23:02 Even if you, like, drench them in butter and...

Rhonda Patrick 23:05 I drenched it in butter and olive oil and I, you know, I cooked down... The spinach, when you cook it down, like so it's a lot more carb actually when it's cooked and-

Joe Rogan 23:15 Really?

Rhonda Patrick 23:15 ... uh, I should have thought. Yeah, because haven't you ever sauteed spinach? I mean, you're like-

Joe Rogan 23:18 Right, but I never thought it would be more carb-

Rhonda Patrick 23:21 Because you're eating more of it.

Joe Rogan 23:21 ... because, because it's more s-

Rhonda Patrick 23:22 You're eating more.

Joe Rogan 23:23 I get it. Right.

Rhonda Patrick 23:23 If you're eating spinach salad-

Joe Rogan 23:25 You don't think you're eating more.

Rhonda Patrick 23:25 ... you would stop. You're like, "Oh, this is a big old bowl," like too much.

Joe Rogan 23:28 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 23:28 But you eat that sauteed spinach and it's like little piece-

Joe Rogan 23:31 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 23:31 It was like a little portion.

Joe Rogan 23:32 It is kind of crazy.

Rhonda Patrick 23:32 Like how much spinach was in there? I don't know. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:35 Right. Okay.

Rhonda Patrick 23:35 So, so, so of course everything that I was like, "Yes, I can't... This... I can do my leafy greens on..." I think I w- I will be able to eventually, but not initially. Not initially, for sure.

Joe Rogan 23:46 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 23:46 And, um-

Joe Rogan 23:47 So you have to supplement with magnesium.

Rhonda Patrick 23:48 I, I'm supple- I am.

Joe Rogan 23:49 Anything else? Selenium? Is there any other things that you're supplementing with?

Rhonda Patrick 23:53 Even selenium and meat and stuff.

Joe Rogan 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 23:55 Um, I mean, I get it, my multivitamin has all that stuff anyways, but I'm, I'm... I usually don't have to take extra magnesium because I usually get so much from eating dark leafy greens. And so that's, like, the main one that I've, that I've added.

Joe Rogan 24:07 And you're eating meat pretty much every day?

Rhonda Patrick 24:10 Yeah, every day. So-

Joe Rogan 24:11 What kind of meat? Like ribeyes, like something fatty?

Rhonda Patrick 24:12 Ribeyes, I had ribeye. Yeah, last night I had a ribeye. Um, the stupid cauliflower, um-... cauliflower hash with, with... It was, like, a keto place I ordered it from (laughs) Postmates to my hotel and...

Joe Rogan 24:24 They have a keto place?

Rhonda Patrick 24:26 It's called Keto Kitchen.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Oh, but it's not keto.

Rhonda Patrick 24:28 I, I found it on... The caulif- uh, the... kicked me down from 2.2, 2.1 to, like, .4.

Joe Rogan 24:35 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 24:35 Like, I was so upset. And then I did bounce back some. I was one millimolar this morning, which was good. But still, I was pissed. Yeah, so the cauliflower hash. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 (laughs) First world problems.

Rhonda Patrick 24:46 You know, it's hard... Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:49 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 24:49 It's hard to get up to two point, like, 2.2.

Joe Rogan 24:51 So is it, is it a matter of, like, doing it for long periods of time where your body becomes fat-

Rhonda Patrick 24:56 Fat-adapted.

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... adapted and understands it and gets accustomed to it? Is that what it is?

Rhonda Patrick 25:00 Yeah, I think so.

Joe Rogan 25:01 Is there an actual, like, uh, a mechanism that's causing this process to be, like, more robust over time?

Rhonda Patrick 25:07 I am... That's a great question that I don't know. I, and I've been wanting to know the answer to, like, what's the actual mechanism? And, you know, I, all I can come up with is, like, you know, it is w-... You know, you're getting your liver to, like... It's, it's always eas-... It's just easier to, like, use that glucose and use it, you know. So, like, getting the liver to, like, oxidize the fatty acids and then make the ketones on top of that, great question. Maybe Dom Doma- D'Agostino knows.

Joe Rogan 25:33 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 25:33 Maybe I'll figure it out. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 25:35 Okay.

Rhonda Patrick 25:35 But, um, but there's something, like... It's, it's real. Like, it's real. And I think, um, maybe, you know, there's probably some individual variation there too. I mean, there's lots of genes regulating these things.

Joe Rogan 25:47 When you were getting your mother to take the ket- ketone esters and, you know, there is that issue that you were talking about where-

Rhonda Patrick 25:53 Yeah, glucose drop, drop.

Joe Rogan 25:54 So what, how do you mitigate that with your mom?

Rhonda Patrick 25:57 Well, she'll pro-... She usually will, like, get some orange juice and, like, eat some oatmeal with fruit in it.

Joe Rogan 26:03 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 26:04 Um, and that's, uh, and she, you know, she's, she's, like, increasing her carb intake basically. So, but still, you know, for someone like me, it's like, like even, like, you know, little bit of carbs that I eat with, like, the vegetables and stuff, it's just, I will crash.

Joe Rogan 26:19 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 26:19 Like, I will crash hard. So, um, so I prefer, so that's... I started doing this whole, like, okay, fasting in the morning, like, I've noticed, like, I'm more mentally on my game. And then it was like, okay, well maybe I could just try the ketogenic diet. You know, like, what have I been so... I, i- wanting, getting the, like, micronutrient intake has been really important to me. And then, of course, like, I, I was pregnant and then I breastfed. I did an extended breastfeeding and all this time I didn't wanna do any restrictive diets really, you know? And, um, and then the pandemic hit and it was just like all this, you know, excuses. But I'm finally like, I finally got the motivation once it was, like, very noticeable mental, like...

Joe Rogan 27:00 Now I know you exercise a lot. Do you notice a difference in your energy levels with keto? 'Cause I, I found when I tried it, uh, that at least the initial part of it was very difficult to work out hard.

Rhonda Patrick 27:13 I did not work out hard, like, per... I haven't actually worked out really hard for 12 days.

Joe Rogan 27:21 13 days? (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 27:21 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:22 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 27:22 Um...

Joe Rogan 27:22 Because you're giving your body a chance to adapt?

Rhonda Patrick 27:25 Um, mostly because I've been so damn busy. But, but, you know, I, I just haven't been y-... I sh- actually probably should have been working out more, because you can actually kick yourself into ketosis by doing that, because you deplete your, your glycogen stores in your muscles and your liver.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Is there any specific type of workout that's better for that?

Rhonda Patrick 27:43 Aerobic, definitely. But on the flip side of that, if you're doing strength training, your... You remember we talked about the gluconeoge- the glucogenic amino acids?

Joe Rogan 27:53 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 27:53 So, gluconeogenesis refers to the process of y- your body making glucose without having to have a carbohydrate source. Your body can make it from those, these specific certain amino acids. There's quite a few of them. And also from the glycerol backbone of, you know, triglycerides. You have three fatty acids on a glycerol background when you sort of break that up, that backbone can also do that. So, so, um, strength training can cause you to take amino acids up into muscle. And some of those glycogen- glucag- uh, glucogenic amino acids are, like, some of the branch chain a- amino acids that you're taking up into muscle. So you're basically, if your strength training, I don't know if this has been shown, it's like, you know, a theoretical speculation. But, like, in theory, you should be taking up some of those am- amino acids and, and not converting as much because that's another thing, too much protein, if you just... Without the fat, like, could potentially kick you out. And-

Joe Rogan 28:49 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 28:49 ... I'm probably also experiencing that 'cause I'm like, "I gotta eat." I'm like, "All I'm eating is avocados." I have, like, avocados in my bag. I travel with them. I'm like, like what else can you do besides all the oil in, like, the coffee?

Joe Rogan 29:00 What do they do when they check you at the airport and they find all this food in your bag? (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 29:03 (laughs) They don't, they didn't do anything.

Joe Rogan 29:04 Like, "What's wrong with this lady? She's got bacon and avocados in her bag." (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 29:07 Well, it's a good thing because, I mean, it's really, like...

Joe Rogan 29:11 Yeah, it's everything's carbs at the airport.

Rhonda Patrick 29:12 It's, it's all carbs. And I didn't eat anything on the flight, you know, I, it was like, you know, so...

Joe Rogan 29:17 That's the, the different, the difficult aspect of is the gluconeogenesis, right? So if you just eat meat, your body's gonna eventually convert that to glucose and that'll kick you out.

Rhonda Patrick 29:26 Yeah. But cl-

Joe Rogan 29:26 So you have to have-

Rhonda Patrick 29:27 I mean, you want some.

Joe Rogan 29:27 ... meat with lots of fat.

Rhonda Patrick 29:29 Exactly. And that's the thing that I'm learning is that, I mean, at least initially, like I said, you know, there's, there are people out there that have been doing this for a long time.

Joe Rogan 29:37 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 29:37 And they're like, I'm sure they're like, they're much more of an expert. They can tell you exactly what you gotta eat and when you can switch over to more of that. But, like, I'm learning about this and I'm going, "Holy shit." Like, I thought I could just eat some meat and restrict my carbs and, like, I'd be in ketosis and...

Joe Rogan 29:52 Dom D'Agostino, he would travel with, uh, oysters and olive oil.

Rhonda Patrick 29:56 So I have sardines and olive oil.

Joe Rogan 29:58 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 29:58 And, um, they're like my favorite because they're really high in omega-3. There's, like, almost a thousand, there's like 800 or something milligrams of EPA and almost, um, like 500 or something. I, it, there, like, of DHA. There's, like, literally, like, a ton of omega-3 in my, in my sardines. And, um, they're in olive oil. The olive oil tastes a little fishy, but I also have a little chili in it. There's like a, so it's like a spicy-So, I've- I've got like four, five of those that I brought with me.

Joe Rogan 30:25 Dibe-- used to... Did I tell you that I used to eat those every day? And then I got my blood work done, I had a level of arsenic that was a little disturbing, and the- the doctor started asking me questions, like, "What's your diet like?" We go over that, he goes, "What do... Is there any, uh... Do you eat any canned fish?" And I said, "Yeah, I eat sardines, like, every day." He goes, "That's it." He goes, "Cut that out. Let's try it again in a couple of months."

Rhonda Patrick 30:47 And? Wh-

Joe Rogan 30:47 So, I cut... Yeah, it was gone.

Rhonda Patrick 30:48 It- it was-

Joe Rogan 30:49 It was-

Rhonda Patrick 30:49 ... specifically it was arsenic?

Joe Rogan 30:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah, arsenic.

Rhonda Patrick 30:52 Really?

Joe Rogan 30:52 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 30:52 No. So, that's interesting because-

Joe Rogan 30:54 They're dirty little fish. They're dirty little fish at the bottom of the sea.

Rhonda Patrick 30:57 Oh, my... I'm gonna have to do an- I've done an arsenic test before, um, and-

Joe Rogan 31:02 How long ago?

Rhonda Patrick 31:03 This was (sighs) ... It was, like, maybe two and a half years ago. Two and a half years ago, I did the-

Joe Rogan 31:08 But you weren't eat... Like, you're eating these every day now?

Rhonda Patrick 31:11 I mean, I was not eating these every day when I did this test. No.

Joe Rogan 31:13 But you are now?

Rhonda Patrick 31:14 I am now.

Joe Rogan 31:14 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 31:15 So I gotta do it.

Joe Rogan 31:16 You should get it checked.

Rhonda Patrick 31:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Because they- they do... They contain a lot of heavy metals, apparently.

Rhonda Patrick 31:19 Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

Joe Rogan 31:20 Yeah. Pollution.

Rhonda Patrick 31:21 Oh, no.

Joe Rogan 31:22 Oh, no.

Rhonda Patrick 31:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:24 I mean, this is just my experience, maybe-

Rhonda Patrick 31:25 What am I gonna eat, Joe? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:27 Well, maybe there's can- cans you can get where they get it from better sources? I don't know.

Rhonda Patrick 31:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:31 This was quite a few years ago. I don't remember what source I was getting it from. Wh- w-

Rhonda Patrick 31:35 Because they're- they're so s- tiny little fish, you'd think that-

Joe Rogan 31:38 They're dirty little buggers.

Rhonda Patrick 31:39 ... like, they're... That you'd think they'd have lower levels of that stuff. Like, they have low-

Joe Rogan 31:42 They're at the bottom. They're at the bottom.

Rhonda Patrick 31:42 Yeah, but they have lower mer- mercury, much lower than like a bigger fish. So, I guess it's not the same for the- with ar- arsenic.

Joe Rogan 31:47 I don't know (sighs) . I mean, ag- again, it could have just been the source I was getting it from. Maybe-

Rhonda Patrick 31:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:51 ... other sources have no arsenic. You know? I don't... I mean, uh, you... They're- they're a really well-traveled fish, right? They're available in a lot of different parts of the world, I believe.

Rhonda Patrick 32:02 Well, I'm glad I wasn't eating them every day while I was breastfeeding either, 'cause I didn't want-

Joe Rogan 32:05 Hm...

Rhonda Patrick 32:05 ... to transfer that to my breast milk.

Joe Rogan 32:07 Yeah. But there are warnings where people say you shouldn't... Particularly, like, freshwater fish. I was reading about this guy... No, I was listening to a podcast, about this guy who got mercury poisoning, and he was a- a freshwater angler, and he would, uh, compete in a lot of fishing tournaments, and he ate fish, like, pretty much every day. Like, freshwater fish. And he developed mercury poisoning. Like, pretty severe mercury poisoning.

Rhonda Patrick 32:32 Yeah. I mean, y- you definitely can get mercury poisoning from eating certain fish.

Joe Rogan 32:37 Dangers of eating anchovies. Oh, I was eating sardines, but-

Narrator 32:41 Oh, yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 32:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 32:42 Different thing.

Narrator 32:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:43 But let's... A couple friends, da-da-da-da-da...

Narrator 32:45 I got some, uh, parasite.

Rhonda Patrick 32:48 Ew.

Joe Rogan 32:48 Oh. That's a different thing.

Narrator 32:51 Anchovy sushi.

Rhonda Patrick 32:51 Ugh. That's a whole other-

Narrator 32:52 Yucky. Nevermind. Yeah. Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 32:52 ... concern.

Joe Rogan 32:52 Associated with eating sushi, the ingest of anchovies infected with parasites. Oh, great.

Narrator 32:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:59 Fun, fun, fun.

Rhonda Patrick 33:00 Sushi is like... Raw fish is also higher in mercury. When you cook the mercury-

Joe Rogan 33:04 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 33:05 ... the- the mer- levels go down.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Yeah, I've heard that, that raw fish is very high in it.

Rhonda Patrick 33:10 High- higher in it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:10 People that eat a lot of sushi, they can get mercury issues, right?

Rhonda Patrick 33:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:14 And is it... Does it... Saltwater versus freshwater, is there...

Rhonda Patrick 33:18 I didn't know about that. What I know about is, like, the- the t- like, size of the fish. Like, so, like, the worst thing you can do is, like, eat swordfish.

Joe Rogan 33:26 Hm... Right.

Rhonda Patrick 33:27 Um, but, like, as you go down, like, there's certain fish, like salmon, sardines are really low in mercury. Salmon, sardines, some, um, anchovies as well, but other issues.

Joe Rogan 33:38 So, the- the bigger fish-

Rhonda Patrick 33:39 Yeah, because they eat- they eat, like, smaller fish-

Joe Rogan 33:42 ... these other fish.

Rhonda Patrick 33:42 ... and then it accumulates-

Joe Rogan 33:43 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 33:43 Yeah, so their accu- ... It's like accumulating in their- in their fat. So, uh, those... I always try to eat fish that are lower... They're high in the omega-3 index, like, wild Alaskan salmon's my favorite. It's high... It's a fatty fish. It's also great for the ketogenic diet because it's a fatty fish, it's high in the omega-3 levels, and lower in, like, you know, things like mercury and stuff like that. And so, um, you know, another way, obviously, to get the omega-3s, which I'm, like, super big on, and there's actually a couple of really cool studies you might be interested in that just came out, um, on longevity, but... Is to take, like, a- a fish oil supplement. Of course, you can't... It's not sustainable, like, if the entire world were taking fish oil. Like, you know, so there's- there's other... We gotta figure out other ways, you know, to, like, get these omega-3s.

Joe Rogan 34:32 That argument is always odd to me. Because, you know, yeah, the entire world, it's not sustainable. But is it available to you right now? Yes. So like, what are you doing? Like, I don't understand those arguments. Because, like, you can't convince the whole world to do certain things. Now if the whole world started taking omega supplements and then it became a real issue with, you know, supply and demand...

Rhonda Patrick 34:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:54 But they're not. So, like, I get so confused when people want everything to be sustainable to the whole world. Like, when I've... I've told people, like, I think that eating wild game is healthier. They'll go, "Yeah, but that's not sustainable for the whole world." Like, the whole world's not doing a lot of things.

Rhonda Patrick 35:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:10 They're not... The whole world's not exercising. The whole world... Like, listen, I'm just talking about what's available for you currently, as a human being listening to this. Like, is it available for eight billion people? No, it is not. But guess what? You're not gonna motivate eight billion people to do anything anyway.

Rhonda Patrick 35:25 Right. Oh-

Joe Rogan 35:25 So, I... That- that-

Rhonda Patrick 35:26 It's funny you mention that.

Joe Rogan 35:27 That conversation is bananas to me, because people always want to use it as an excuse to not do something healthy.

Rhonda Patrick 35:33 True. Um, did you know about... You mentioned the wild game, and, like, if we could go back to omega-3, I'd love to.

Joe Rogan 35:39 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 35:39 But, like, there have... So, there... I've looked at some studies. So, when the pandemic hit, I, like, bought a bunch of, like, you know, elk, wild elk, and, like, claimed to be wild, you know?

Joe Rogan 35:50 It's definitely not.

Rhonda Patrick 35:51 Okay. (laughs) Well-

Joe Rogan 35:52 It's all from New Zealand, most of it.

Rhonda Patrick 35:53 Is it?

Joe Rogan 35:54 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 35:54 Okay. Well, I was buying that, and then I was buying, like, pasture-raised, this and that-

Joe Rogan 35:57 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 35:57 ... of course, and so as we looked into, like, the differences of, like, you know, looking at, like, vitamin and mineral profiles, and oma- you know, the omega-3 fatty acid profiles, and the fat and macronut- protein, all that. And, um, like, elk, for example, wild, like, wild elk, like wild game like you're getting, it- it's interesting, it does have, like, higher concentrations of some, like, minerals and- and micronutrients like zinc. Like, so you're getting, like, a much higher level of some- some of those things. It has higher levels of, um, omega-3, like- like ALA and, um, some of the omega-3 fatty acids compared to, certainly compared to conventional. But, um, anyways, yeah. I mean, in a way, if you define healthier as more micronutrient-packed-It is.

Joe Rogan 36:41 It's healthier.

Rhonda Patrick 36:41 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:42 Yeah. It's also sl- it just looks healthier. If you look at it, like w- the other day, I cooked a piece of beef, and then I cooked a bunch of elk, and my family was, you know, we were eating both. And we're looking at the elk versus the beef. The elk l- it, it's so dark. It's so dark and rich, and it just ... You can't eat as much. Like, y- you get full quicker. Like, your body gets satisfied by it quicker. But it's also the, just the, whatever is causing it to be so dark, it's q- it's quite evident when you look at it, that one of them is more attractive to you.

Rhonda Patrick 37:16 Right. I don't, I don't know if it, i- i- if it's as simple as, like, the stuff that you buy at the supermarkets just oxidizing out (laughs) in the, in the air.

Joe Rogan 37:25 It's just-

Rhonda Patrick 37:25 Or if it's-

Joe Rogan 37:26 ... the diet, because if you get grass-fed meat, it's a darker meat. Like, grass-fed beef is quite a bit darker. Grass-fed, grass-finished beef is much darker and has much less fat, and it looks much more like ... And it tastes much more like game. Some people do not like the taste of grass-fed meat, because it actually tastes like meat. When you're getting grain-fed cows, which is what most people love, you get that juicy, like, really fatty-

Rhonda Patrick 37:52 D-

Joe Rogan 37:52 ... meat. That was a dying animal. That's an animal that, you know, if you just let it eat like that, it would just tip over and have a fucking heart attack. (laughs) It's like-

Rhonda Patrick 38:00 (laughs) Well, they've compared it. You're, you're right. It is like-

Joe Rogan 38:02 Yes.

Rhonda Patrick 38:02 ... the conventional is fat- uh, fattier as well. And before 2017, like, that's ... For a long time, I was ... Like, the main reason I was avoiding conventional meat was because, you know, these ... I don't know what you call them. These farmers, the ones that are growing, like, having the, the cows all packed in in there, you know-

Joe Rogan 38:19 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 38:19 ... farming them.

Joe Rogan 38:19 Factory farm.

Rhonda Patrick 38:20 Factory farm.

Joe Rogan 38:20 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 38:21 They're ... They were feeding them antibiotics, not because they were, had an infection, but because it made them bigger, right? Like-

Joe Rogan 38:27 That's why they fed them antibiotics?

Rhonda Patrick 38:29 Oh, yeah. So the FDA in 2017 ... You didn't know about this? So they-

Joe Rogan 38:32 I thought it was as a risk-

Rhonda Patrick 38:34 They banned-

Joe Rogan 38:34 ... as a reaction to the issues that they were having by eating corn.

Rhonda Patrick 38:38 Well, some, some, I'm sure some factory farmers were doing it for that. But, but by and large, like, there's like, there was a huge effect if you gave, like, an, a cattle or, or, you know, one of these animals antibiotics, it like, made them grow bigger.

Joe Rogan 38:53 I wonder why.

Rhonda Patrick 38:54 I don't know. I honestly don't know.

Joe Rogan 38:56 Hm.

Rhonda Patrick 38:56 But it was like, causing antibiotic resistance, like, was going through the roof-

Joe Rogan 39:01 Oh, my God.

Rhonda Patrick 39:01 ... because it was, like, leaking into, like, all the water supplies.

Joe Rogan 39:05 That is-

Rhonda Patrick 39:05 And not to mention-

Joe Rogan 39:05 ... so scary to me.

Rhonda Patrick 39:06 We-

Joe Rogan 39:06 Antibiotic resistance is so scary to me, because I know several friends that have had MRSA infections, and they are absolutely terrifying, because when you do get MRSA, like friends that have had, uh, staph infections and it got really bad, the doctors tell you, like, "This is touch and go." Like, you have to be in the hospital on an IV drip of antibiotics for we- I had a friend who was in there for weeks. And he is a young, healthy, black belt in jujitsu. He got a MRSA infection on his knee. Th- they had to cut his knee open like a fish, like pull it to the side to drain it and, like, to constantly clean it. It was horrific. He almost died. And he was in his 20s. And he ... Really healthy.

Rhonda Patrick 39:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:48 Really active elite athlete.

Rhonda Patrick 39:51 Yeah. MRSA will take anyone down.

Joe Rogan 39:52 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 39:53 That- That's ... I agree. Uh, that, that, that, that's scary.

Joe Rogan 39:55 And that's a direct result of antibiotics.

Rhonda Patrick 39:58 It is.

Joe Rogan 39:58 So the use of antibiotics has created this strain of really potent staph.

Rhonda Patrick 40:04 A- And believe it or not, a lot of it was coming from this fa- this a- this agricultural use of it.

Joe Rogan 40:09 Really?

Rhonda Patrick 40:10 And so the a- that ... The, the FDA shut that down. They said in 2017, because of antibiotic resistance, you, if you're a factory farmer, whatever, you can't give your animal antibiotics unless they ha- unless it's prescribed by a veterinarian and it ... They have an infection that you're trying. Now, you might find people still doing it. I mean, th- you can find veterinarians that'll give you anything, right? So ... But they, they put the kibosh on that, and like-

Joe Rogan 40:36 So these animals, they were feeding them just to get them bigger.

Rhonda Patrick 40:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:39 They were g- And it was causing strains of antibiotic-resistant m- the staph or whatever-

Rhonda Patrick 40:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 ... it is?

Rhonda Patrick 40:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 Bacteria?

Rhonda Patrick 40:47 Yeah. Yep.

Joe Rogan 40:47 Wow.

Rhonda Patrick 40:48 Yeah. So, um, that's one good thing that since 2017, which isn't that long ago and that-

Joe Rogan 40:52 How was that making the jump to people?

Rhonda Patrick 40:55 Um, I mean, it was just ... It was getting into the water supplies. You know, I think it was just causing these strains to become resistant and then-

Joe Rogan 41:03 Oh.

Rhonda Patrick 41:03 ... the strains come to people. I mean, you know? So i- imagine the amount of antibiotics to, like, just nationwide in, in, in United States alone. Like-

Joe Rogan 41:13 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 41:13 ... how many they're using on all these ... And it was like chickens. They were doing it for all these animals. I mean, it was making them big.

Joe Rogan 41:18 And they're only doing it to make them big?

Rhonda Patrick 41:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:19 That is wild.

Rhonda Patrick 41:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:21 And do we know why it makes them big?

Rhonda Patrick 41:23 I, I don't remember. Like, I n- I think I looked into this, like, years ago when this w- when I was, like, into that whole thing. Um, I think there is a mechanism that's known, but I don't remember exactly what it is. Probably has to do with the microbiome composition.

Joe Rogan 41:36 I am-

Rhonda Patrick 41:36 Like certain bacteria, like ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Whew.

Rhonda Patrick 41:39 Certain bacteria are probably like, you know, go away and other ones are, like, making you get the energy, 'cause you can, like, harvest energy better from certain, you know, bacteria in your gut.

Joe Rogan 41:48 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 41:49 So it probably has to do something with that. But, like, I just don't remember the exact mechanism.

Joe Rogan 41:53 That, that is-

Rhonda Patrick 41:53 It's crazy though, right?

Joe Rogan 41:54 It's the scariest to me, because I've had really healthy friends get taken down by it. And you, you find out that the doctor says, "Hey, we don't know exactly if you're gonna live."

Rhonda Patrick 42:03 Yeah. That's crazy. Um, so, like, I had a great uncle that, you know, just died of a staph infection. Like, he went in for, you know, some kind of type II diabetes complication, like kidney or something, and got a staph infection while he was in there, and that's what ultimately took him down. It's a scary thing.

Joe Rogan 42:18 It is.

Rhonda Patrick 42:18 Um, h- there was a Nature paper published like, literally right around ... It was like a year and a half ago, and, and it was like titled something like some medieval, um, treatment to, you know, antibiotic resistance or something. And it was like all these components used in like chim-chur- chimichurri sauce, you know, where it was like garlic and basil and parsley and ... You know, a lot of these plants do have-... antimicrobial activity and-

Joe Rogan 42:44 But you talked about it, that the issue that you had with staph that you actually fixed-

Rhonda Patrick 42:49 I-

Joe Rogan 42:49 ... with using garlic-

Rhonda Patrick 42:51 Yes.

Joe Rogan 42:51 ... on-

Rhonda Patrick 42:51 So-

Joe Rogan 42:51 ... on the actual-

Rhonda Patrick 42:52 I did.

Joe Rogan 42:52 ... infection.

Rhonda Patrick 42:52 This is a total anecdote, and I had never tested the actual abscess to know if it was actually MRSA. But my anecdote goes as this. I came down with an abscess, and the first time I had it-

Joe Rogan 43:06 Where was it?

Rhonda Patrick 43:07 ... the first one was, like, on my butt, and that had to be, like, they, like, removed it, and there was, like, like, a couple of inch hole. Like, it was, like, necrotic. Like, it was bad. And, um, and so that healed. But it has alre- it's already been on my skin, you know, it travels around, and so then I got it, like, in my pelvic region.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Is that what happens?

Rhonda Patrick 43:27 And this-

Joe Rogan 43:27 It just, once it's in your skin-

Rhonda Patrick 43:28 Well, we've-

Joe Rogan 43:29 ... it just-

Rhonda Patrick 43:29 ... taught all this stuff, yeah. Once you get one, like even if it's not MRSA, whatever, whatever the st- you know, the staph-

Joe Rogan 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 43:35 ... you know, Staphylococcus aureus or whatever it's called, um, yeah, it's all over in your skin, and, um, I think it also depends a lot on, like, your immune system fighting it off. And this was- I got this in grad school. I was under a tremendous amount of stress. Like, I was so stressed out. I wasn't sleeping 'cause I had, you know, I was just working my, I was just working, working, working, and- and, like, stress, big time. Like, it was like a, I- I was getting sick a- a lot more often than, you know, I mean, it was just a bad, and I had IBS, bad part. Anyways, so then I got the- another abscess in a, in different region. It was closer to my pelvic region, and they gave me some antibiotics orally and then also some of this stuff called, like, Mupirocin, a topical antibiotic. And, uh, you know, it would go away and then come back. And it did this, like, on antibiotics again, it did this, like, twice. And at that point, I was like, "What the hell? Like, this isn't working." And I started looking into the literature on, okay, is there, like, a combination of things I can do to potentially help impact this, right? And, um, so, you know, you can find all sorts of those ... There's all sorts of compounds in various herbs and essential oils and things like that. And so after doing a lot of reading, I'd come up with, uh, some of the major ones were garlic, um, uh, this garlic was both topical and oral. I was also taking, like, oral vitamin C, like, once an hour to kind of help m- boost my immune system. I don't know, you know, whether or not that did anything, but, um, that was part of my, my, you know, protocol. And then, uh, topical, I was, I put garlic, so I would open up one of those garlic pills, and then I did tea tree oil. That was a big one that was shown to have, like, an effect, particularly on MRSA. And, um, so I was putting tea tree oil, and then I was also taking grapefruit seed extract orally 'cause that was shown to have an effect. And, um, I was taking EGCG, which is, like, from green tea. It also has- shown to have, like, uh ... These are all, you know, studies in vitro showing it has an effect on staph, uh, MRSA. You know, grain of salt, it's like, okay, in vitro, you put it on it, it's like, it kills it with a dose of X.

Joe Rogan 45:39 Can you explain in vitro to people, that it's just cell culture?

Rhonda Patrick 45:41 Yeah. So you basically put something in cells that are in a Petri dish, you know, so it's- it's hard to extrapolate something like that to a human. But I was desperate and, you know, it was like, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna..." And I was taking this stuff, like the oral stuff, like the garlic and the grapefruit seed extract, and I was taking it, like, every one to two hours.

Joe Rogan 46:01 Is there any benefit to taking fresh garlic versus taking it in a pill form or even, like, using it as, like, you were saying you took the capsules. Would be- there be benefit in taking the actual real garlic?

Rhonda Patrick 46:13 Well, the garlic, real garlic is great too, Then once this- once it, like, this thing went away for good, I was like, "Oh, garlic is the bomb." You know? So I would eat garlic any time I would feel any k- sort of sick or anything like that. But the oil's highly concentrated, you know what I mean? You're like smashing down all the oils from the garlic. So-

Joe Rogan 46:29 So the- the- there are k- uh, capsule?

Rhonda Patrick 46:30 There's- it was a capsule with oil, garlic oil.

Joe Rogan 46:33 Oh, okay.

Rhonda Patrick 46:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:34 It's not powder.

Rhonda Patrick 46:34 Garlic- garlic oil. No, it's not powder.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 46:36 Yeah. It was garlic oil that I was doing at the time. I mean-

Joe Rogan 46:39 So you'd cut open the capsule and just put it on the abscess?

Rhonda Patrick 46:42 I would cut it open and I would put it on topically, and it didn't smell good. Um-

Joe Rogan 46:45 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 46:45 ... along with the tea tree oil. (laughs) But, um, I was, like, determined. I was like, "I'm gonna try this."

Joe Rogan 46:51 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 46:51 You know, I- I kind of am that way, like, I- when I try something, I'm like, "I'm gonna try it." Like, "I'm gonna really-"

Joe Rogan 46:58 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 46:58 "... give it a shot." Like, "I'm gonna do it." And so, um, so I was like, "Yeah, I stink, whatever, you know, deal with it."

Joe Rogan 47:03 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 47:03 And it worked. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:05 How long did it take to-

Rhonda Patrick 47:06 It was-

Joe Rogan 47:06 ... clear up?

Rhonda Patrick 47:07 ... really quick.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 47:08 I mean, I think my memory was something like two days for me to notice, like two days it was like ... It pussed out, so, like, the abscess, like, it- it, like, pussed out and, like, literally within, like, two days.

Joe Rogan 47:21 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 47:22 I think. Something like that, where it just, you know, instead of just being this abscess that's not coming to a head and hurts and ... so.

Joe Rogan 47:30 I started getting a patch of, uh, folliculitis from jujitsu.

Rhonda Patrick 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Which y- a lot of times people associate with staph, when you see those little red bumps-

Rhonda Patrick 47:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:40 ... like, where your hair follicle are. It was on my leg and I got pretty sketched out by it 'cause I've had ske- staph in the past. But I killed it with topical spray, this Defense Soap, which is a company that makes products specifically designed to prevent fungus infections for grapplers, like ringworm and, uh, help prevent staph infection. All their stuff has, like, tea tree oil, eucalyptus oil. It's all, like, very healthy. And they make, like, a spray for specific, uh, like, ish- issues like that, when you have, like, a topical irritation and, like, something that's on the surface of your skin. I managed to kill it. But I was nervous 'cause I've had staph twice and I was like, "Ah, fuck, here it comes."

Rhonda Patrick 48:22 Right. And it could-

Joe Rogan 48:23 You know?

Rhonda Patrick 48:23 It's like, and you-

Joe Rogan 48:24 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 48:24 ... you know it could be serious, like-

Joe Rogan 48:25 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 48:25 ... it really could.

Joe Rogan 48:26 But I jumped on it quick and, uh, within a few days, it was gone.

Rhonda Patrick 48:32 I've- I've gotten folliculitis once. I had, when I was in grad school, I was trying out that, like, Indian threading of your eyebrows or whatever and-

Joe Rogan 48:40 What?

Rhonda Patrick 48:41 Have you heard of this?

Joe Rogan 48:42 No.

Rhonda Patrick 48:42 It's like they do, like-

Joe Rogan 48:43 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 48:43 ... instead of, like, plucking them with the tweezer-

Joe Rogan 48:44 They-

Rhonda Patrick 48:44 ... I've got these Italian eyebrows, and they're, like, thick, real, like-

Joe Rogan 48:47 How big do they get?

Rhonda Patrick 48:49 Um, it's been a while.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Do you get a uni?

Rhonda Patrick 48:51 No. No, I don't get the uni part, but it's, like, d- it's, like, down on my eyelid, you know? (laughs) It's like...

Joe Rogan 48:57 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 48:58 So, um, uh, anyways. So, yeah, I was in grad school and there was, like, an, uh, a woman from India. Um, she was in my lab and, um, she was like, "This is the best thing. It's like, you know, it's so much better than plucking 'em." And whatever, she convinced me to try it, right? So I went to some place and they do this, like, thread, and they, like, get the hair and, like, do this thing where they, like, put it around the- the hair for hair and pull it out. And it's supposed to be... I don't, I don't know what all that stuff is.

Joe Rogan 49:24 How is that better than plucking? You're s- you're plucking the...

Rhonda Patrick 49:27 You're supposed to... Like, they get it, like, at the root more and they get...

Joe Rogan 49:30 Oh.

Rhonda Patrick 49:30 I don't know, whatever. I got fucked up from it.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Yeah?

Rhonda Patrick 49:32 I got folliculitis and it was like... I had a rash on my eyebrows. Like, it was awful.

Joe Rogan 49:38 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 49:38 And of course, me and my tea tree oil, like, at the... Especially at the time, after I was like... After I had, like, had that, you know, staph infection, whatever it was go away, it was like, "Tea tree oil anything. Any bump, a zit, whatever." Tea tree oil (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 49:51 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 49:51 Now, I'm actually, to be honest, and it did help by the way, but there's these studies coming out with tea tree oil, like- like, causing... You know, like, changing ho- hormones and, like, estrogen-mimicking.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Oh.

Rhonda Patrick 50:02 And so now I'm kinda like, "Oh, not too much tea tree oil." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:05 Estrogen-mimicking, meaning it'll-

Rhonda Patrick 50:06 Like-

Joe Rogan 50:06 ... elevate your estrogen?

Rhonda Patrick 50:07 Like, mimicking the biological action of estrogen, and so like-

Joe Rogan 50:11 Oh, boy.

Rhonda Patrick 50:12 It- it's called... Have you heard of, like, some of these guys getting, like gyno masta-

Joe Rogan 50:16 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 50:16 What's it called?

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 50:17 Gyno-

Joe Rogan 50:17 Gynemastia, yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 50:18 Yeah, gynecomastia, where they've got, like-

Joe Rogan 50:20 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 50:20 ... boobs and stuff.

Joe Rogan 50:20 They've get... They get man boobs.

Rhonda Patrick 50:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 50:23 Well, um, I think there's some preliminary... There was some evidence linking, like, crazy tea tree oil use to- to that too.

Joe Rogan 50:31 How much tea tree oil are all these guys using?

Rhonda Patrick 50:33 I don't- I don't know, but this stuff, I mean, it gets, it gets into your system-

Joe Rogan 50:36 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 50:37 ... too, you know?

Joe Rogan 50:38 So, maybe, like, they're rubbing it all over their body?

Rhonda Patrick 50:40 I don't know what they're doing (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 50:41 Fucking hippies.

Rhonda Patrick 50:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:43 They ruin everything. (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 50:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:46 Even good things.

Rhonda Patrick 50:47 Yeah, so I... (laughs) So I've- I've sort of... Now, it's like, okay, the tea tree cal- oil comes out. Like, if there's some little bump, it's like, "Okay, I get tea tree oil." But I'm not like-

Joe Rogan 50:55 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 50:56 ... obse- I'm, like, crazy-

Joe Rogan 50:57 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 50:57 ... not crazy about it. No.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Got it.

Rhonda Patrick 50:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:58 Yeah, makes sense.

Rhonda Patrick 50:59 So, you know.

Joe Rogan 50:59 Yeah. I think gynecomastia though is, like, pretty extreme. I think when guys get it, it's usually... If it's not from some sort of strange hormone imbalance, it's usually from using steroids 'cause they use steroids and there's so much, they take so much testosterone that their body expresses... Um, I don't think it's just, I don't think it's just estrogen. It's, uh, something else too.

Rhonda Patrick 51:21 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:22 There was actually... I was watching a video on it. It is horrific when they remove it. Oh my God, it looks like the little thing from Alien (screeches) that comes bursting out of your chest. I thought it would just be fluid. It's not fluid. It's a mass.

Rhonda Patrick 51:37 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 51:38 It's a big-

Rhonda Patrick 51:39 Like a tumor?

Joe Rogan 51:39 ... thick, meaty mass. And they... There's videos of guys getting their gynecomastia removed. It's basically, like, there's a whole culture on YouTube of, like, these steroid guys, you know, that, like, show all the damage that they've done to their body through steroids. And one of them is guys that have had their boobs cut open to take out this gynecomastia. And it's just these big pulpy-looking... Pull it up, Jamie.

52:06 I was trying not to, but-

52:09 (laughs) Trying not to? How dare you? (laughs)

52:09 (laughs) I don't know if I wanna see this.

Rhonda Patrick 52:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:11 You need to see it 'cause it's crazy, 'cause people need to see it because, uh-

Rhonda Patrick 52:14 Is it fat?

Joe Rogan 52:15 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 52:16 Is it like-

Joe Rogan 52:16 It's... I don't know. It's- it's some kind of breast tissue, but it's breast tissue like a boob, like an actual-

Rhonda Patrick 52:23 I've s-

Joe Rogan 52:23 Like, yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 52:24 I've seen them before. Yeah. And they look, they look like it, for sure.

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yes. Yeah. The-

Rhonda Patrick 52:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:28 I... There was a guy who fought in the UFC way back in the day who had it, and he had it bad. And then he got it removed and then he looked normal after it. But I mean, he-

52:36 Oh, there you go.

52:37 He had, like, boobs.

52:38 That's the only one I could find with the thing.

52:40 Um, yeah, but that is nothing. That's just holes. If you can show a video of them... See that stuff in the right-hand corner? That's it.

52:48 Oh.

52:48 That's what it looks like.

Rhonda Patrick 52:50 Oh.

Joe Rogan 52:50 Yeah. Click on that. Like, that's what it looks like.

Rhonda Patrick 52:52 It does look like fat.

Joe Rogan 52:53 It's, like, these giant glands.

Rhonda Patrick 52:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:57 Yeah, right there. Gi- gynecomastia, huge glands. That fellow in the middle. Oh, look at that. I mean, these are huge things that they're pulling out of these guys' boobs. Yeah. There's another... It's not just, um, estrogen that's causing this. It's something else.

Rhonda Patrick 53:16 And I don't think... By the way, I don't think tea tree oil is the only thing (laughs) causing it either.

Joe Rogan 53:20 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 53:20 Just to be clear.

Joe Rogan 53:21 Well- well, especially something like that.

Rhonda Patrick 53:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:23 I'm pretty sure that is... Unless it's, like, coming from some strange, um, you know, weird hormonal imbalance, just it's a natural irregularity-

Rhonda Patrick 53:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:32 ... irregularity of the body, it's coming from steroids. It's very common with guys who've done a lot of steroids.

Rhonda Patrick 53:37 Wow.

Joe Rogan 53:38 They have to do a lot though. You know, they have to get... You get crazy and then these things grow.

Rhonda Patrick 53:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:43 But they are boobs.

Rhonda Patrick 53:44 Right. Yeah, they- they definitely are.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Yikes.

Rhonda Patrick 53:46 Lavender oil is another one that's been shown to have like the-

Joe Rogan 53:48 Oh, really?

Rhonda Patrick 53:49 ... the hormone-disrupting effects. Yeah, so like...

Joe Rogan 53:51 That makes sense 'cause that's, like, associated with ladies.

Rhonda Patrick 53:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:54 Like, ladies putting the lavender oil on, right?

Rhonda Patrick 53:56 I-

Joe Rogan 53:56 Is that-

Rhonda Patrick 53:57 All I know is I've... Well, lavender, I mean, it kind of has this calming effect, you know?

Joe Rogan 54:03 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 54:03 Like aromatherapy, you know, you breathe it in and it's... Do you ever do... put lavert- lavender oil in the sauna when you're in there?

Joe Rogan 54:09 No. I do do eucalyptus though.

Rhonda Patrick 54:11 Like, eucalyptus.

Joe Rogan 54:11 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 54:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:12 I like that.

Rhonda Patrick 54:12 Well, that's like helps you breathe, but there's the lavender-

Joe Rogan 54:14 Does it help?

Rhonda Patrick 54:15 Well, I mean, it seems like it. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:20 I'm a... I have become absolutely obsessed with sauna use over the last like... I guess it started because of you. And then over the last, like, through the pandemic, the last year and a half or so, I'm in every day, every single day. Like, it's very rare that I take a day off. I mean, I have to be wrecked to take a day off of sauna use which-

Rhonda Patrick 54:41 Damn, you're getting all the benefits.

Joe Rogan 54:43 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 54:43 You're-

Joe Rogan 54:43 Even when I come home at night, like last night I had a show and I'm out with all these fucking weirdos with no masks on. So I'm like, as soon as I got home, I cook myself.

Rhonda Patrick 54:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:52 I cook myself for like 15, 20 minutes at 185 degrees and just deep breaths. And you know, there's that paper that I sent you about, uh, COVID-19 and, um, you know, the, uh, therapeutic, uh, intervention of using sauna and this idea that...... when your body heats up like that, like you're trying to kill off a vi- a virus when you're- when you're sick. If you're sick with a viral infection and your body gets a fever, your body's trying to kill that. And this idea, this paper is, you know, exploring the use of sauna to intervene, to stop it from ever getting infecting, eh, ev- ev- from ever infecting your body, both through your nasal passages, through your- through your airway, and also just through the actual heating of the body.

Rhonda Patrick 55:38 Right. Yeah. There's a- there's a fever response that is induced, like, when you have an infection. And- and- and part of that is to help fight off, you know, the pathogen as well.

Joe Rogan 55:49 'Cause the pathogen can only exist in a certain temperature range, right?

Rhonda Patrick 55:52 Part- partly, yeah. I mean, there's p- there's multiple mechanisms. It also activates heat shock proteins. Um, and heat shock proteins have an- a- a role in- in your immune system response and how your immune system responds. So it, like, you know, it- it plays a role particularly in- in- in innate immunity, um, which is the kind of immunity that is, uh, important when you first see a pathogen that you've never seen before. This isn't like an antibody type of response. It's like killing of it, you know-

Joe Rogan 56:18 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 56:18 ... before that. Um, but there's interesting evidence, I'm sure I've talked- we've talked about this coming out of Dr. Jari Laukkanen's lab in, uh, Finland. Uh, this was a few years ago where he- he looked at sauna use and, like, incidents of pneumonia. And people that, like ... So in Finland, saunas are ubiquitous. You know, most people have one at their house, and most people use it at least once, you know- at least once a week. Um, but then you have people that are using it, like, two to three or four to seven, and so he always kind of stratifies the- the data based on, like, frequency of use. And he found that people that used the sauna four to seven times a week were 40% less likely to get pneumonia. And this was after, like, correcting for all sorts of, like, other lung diseases and other health factors and exercise and all that stuff, you know. At the end of the day, it's a correlative study, right? I mean-

Joe Rogan 57:08 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 57:08 ... so ... But, um, I thought that was interesting because there's also, like, all these other studies that have been done in, like, the '80s looking at the effects of the sauna on the lung function and, like, helping with, you know, like, a variety of fa- factors of lung function. So, it's- it's interesting. There's probably, like, lots of things going on, um, as well. And as I just gave you my paper today, uh, was- was published with my co-author, Teresa Johnson, um, in the- the journal Experimental Gerontology. We argue that if ... The title is Sauna Use as a Lifestyle to Increase Healthspan, which basically refers to the disease-free part of your life. So, in other words, you know, like, you- as you age, you become more susceptible to things like, you know, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, heart disease, respiratory problems, all that stuff. And so, we argue that- that sauna use should be up there with things like exercise and-

Joe Rogan 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 58:09 ... good sleep and good diet, you know, things that are known to- to improve your quality of life. And there's tons of evidence, things that we've talked about before, but, um, you know, talking about the cardiovascular disease improvements, how sauna ... But one of the things I'm most excited about, like, I've been getting my mom in the sauna, and she's been sedentary, you know, like her whole life basically. She's overweight and, like, there's no- there's no getting her on a Peloton, there's no getting her to go for a jog. Like, it's just not gonna happen. Maybe once, but, like, it's just not gonna happen. And so, um, I've been trying to get her in the sauna because I'm trying to improve her health some way, right? And, you know, it's- it's a lot easier for people, at least I've noticed with my mom, you know, who's- if- views it as, like, a spa treatment, you know. She goes in there and puts some hot water- I mean, s- puts some cold water on the hot rocks, and it's kind of like a steam room. Like, she feels like it's a- it's a spa, but she's also getting, you know, the sauna-mimicking cardiovascular- mo- moderate cardiovascular exercise. Like-

Joe Rogan 59:09 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 59:09 ... that's what it does. And we talk all about that in the paper. Um, but, you know, so- so people that are, like, sedentary and have been sedentary their whole life and also people that are disabled. Like, there are some people that can't go for a run. There are people that can't even get on a Peloton. Like, they're disabled, and they can't do aerobic exercise. Like, this, to me, is, like, a no-brainer.

Joe Rogan 59:33 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 59:33 A no-brainer. I mean, granted, there are some contraindications, like certain- if you have certain, um, particularly certain, like, heart- certain heart disease risks. Um, that could be a contraindication, meaning you shouldn't do it. But by and large, it's- you know, improves a lot of cardiovascular things, and so-

Joe Rogan 59:50 Can you mitigate those risks by having a- a slightly lower temperature? Like, instead of, like, going to 185, maybe going to 160 or something like that where it's a more mild form of heat?

Rhonda Patrick 1:00:01 Right. I don't know. I know that, like, it- to me, that would make sense, and this was- you have to, like, discuss this with your physician. But like, for example, s- people that have, like, arrhythmias, there could be a very mild contraindication with arrhythmias. And so the question is, you know, would a lower temperature, like 165, which is what I've been doing for my mom, like, mostly because she's not adapted to h- the heat at all, and so, like, you have to adapt before you can, like, do 20 minutes at 185. You know, like, it takes- takes a while for people that aren't used to even raising their core body temperature when they're exercising, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:00:36 So again, that's mimical- it's mimicking a lot of the physiological aspects, including that core body tem- core body temperature going up, you know, the- the- the blood flow changes going to your skin and sweating, heart rate. You know, your heart rate gets elevated while you're in the sauna, and then it- and then blood pressure goes down after. Like, these things have been compared head to head. So, it does mimic moderate aerobic activity, and it's, like, the only way that I'm able to get my mom in there.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:01:01 And then there's, like, the brain benefits, you know, and this is something, um, people- people that are- are, um, depressed, like my mom actually has- she's been diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And, um, you know, you look at a ... She's got a variety of SNPs, like prop- like, there are certain SNPs that she has that are, you know, consistent, like in the serotonin transporter and things like that. You can look and see, like, there, you know, there's evidence that she has things that have been linked to, like, you know-... major depressive disorder. And also, she's had a lifetime of being inactive, and there's a lot of environmental factors at play, you know, like drinking Cokes, like refined sugar, you know? I mean, that's inflammation. But, um, there's been some evidence from Dr. Charles Raison. He was the first to show that like a single, what they called whole body hyperthermia, which is basically, they were using this really expensive device to elevate people's core body temperature to like 101 degrees Fahrenheit. I mean, they were doing a fever. I mean, they were getting hot. And they had a sham control, people that were th- ... They were elevating their core body temperature a little bit, so they thought they were getting the treatment, but they weren't. So it was- it was-

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 How were they elevating the core body temperature?

Rhonda Patrick 1:02:11 There was ... It's- it's kinda like some ... It's- it's called the Heckel device. It's like this crazy thing that has kind of infrared-ish, like, where it's doing it, like, through like that, like what an infrared sauna would do basically.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Okay. Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:02:22 Um, and- and so they did this in the- in the people that were, uh, in the sham c- control group, which is kinda like the placebo in a way. And so 70% of those people in that group actually thought they were getting the treatment, so it was a wonderful placebo because with anything depression, like placebo effect is a very real thing. And people know they're getting a treatment, they're gonna feel better. Like, yeah, this works, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:02:45 So it's important to have that control. Um, and they showed just one, like one exposure to this, there was a huge antidepressant effect that lasted six weeks. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 What? One?

Rhonda Patrick 1:02:57 One.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 One session?

Rhonda Patrick 1:02:58 One session. One session. And the mechanism for this is completely unknown. Uh, we t- ... We talk a l- ... Like Theresa and I talk a little bit about this in- in our recent publication. Um, but it's also a topic page on my website. It's the sauna, like we have like a 20-something page, you know, article that is a lot of this on the website. Um, but y- uh, part of it could be like there's a million things. So here's the thing. There's a- a new ... So Dr. Ashley Mason, she is, uh, at UCSF, and she specializes in non-pharmacological treatments for depression or sleep. And she actually trained with Dr. Charles Raison, and she sort of carried on the torch. Um, and I'm collaborating with her now, which is really cool, on, um, an ex- ... on a clinical trial where she's basically taken ... Forget that device, like it's too ... It's like $50,000. It's like all this FDA tape and like to get it and like use it and ... So she's, like, found a way to basically get an infrared sauna where people are laying in this like tent with their head out.

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:04:01 And sh- ... They're in there for a- a long time, and, um, they're measuring their rectal temperature and making sure they get up to like 101. And it's like a silicone probe. It's really easy to ... You know, it's not like uncomfortable. But these people are getting hot. They're getting so hot that like, you know, technicians are having to like cool them down with wet towels, you know, and like while they're in this thing because they have to be in to that degree where they're- they're getting like a fever or something.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 So they're cooling their head? Is that what they're doing?

Rhonda Patrick 1:04:26 They're cooling their head. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 Okay.

Rhonda Patrick 1:04:28 But- but she's done a proof of principle study on people that are not depressed that show- shows that it's like not dangerous basically. It's not dangerous. People will do it, and that's kinda like you have to like show that before you can like go onto the next step and- and use it as a potential clinical treatment for depression. So now this study that she's going to be starting any t- any day, uh, which I'm collaborating with her on, is she's going to be recruiting clinically depressed, um, patients or participants and- and giving them this treatment. They're g- ... And it's gonna be a dose ec- escalation. In other words, she's gonna try to do it at least eight weeks. By which the first one was one time, so once a week for eight weeks. So they're gonna be, you know, see if they can even do this, like if they can handle it, right? And, um, she's gonna combine it with cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, because that's a known treatment to help with depression. And you can't start any study without giving like a treatment that's known to work 'cause it's like unethical. But what I'm excited about is the biomarkers that we're gonna measure, like, you know, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. That's been shown to play a role in depression. Um, and it's one of the major things, like exercise increases it, and there's been studies showing hot baths increase brain-derived neurot- neurotrophic factor BDNF. Um, so, you know, it's like, well, let's see w- ... Let's see if the sauna's doing that. Like that would be one potential mechanism. And then there's a variety of other ... We'll mention heat shock proteins. They've been shown to play a role in, um, mood in animal studies and a variety of inflammatory biomarkers because what was interesting about that pilot study by Dr. Charles Raison was that he found the people that had the most robust antidepressant effect had higher levels of something called IL-6. IL-6 is a cytokine. It's- it's kind of often referred to as like a Janus cytokine because it's like both pro- and anti-inflammatory. It has like both effects. It's- it's something that is h- ... you know, elevated when you exercise. And, um, it ... You know, there's a- a robust anti-inflammatory response in some cases, like IL-10 and things that are anti-inflammatory. Anyways, he found people that had the highest levels of IL-6 tend to had the- have the most robust effects of the sauna. So a variety of interesting things. Super exciting because like, you know, like if this could be a potential treatment, getting people ... And like I know you and I have talked about this (laughs) like probably a million times, but like getting depressed people to go exercise, like is not easy.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 1:06:53 Like they don't have that motivation.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 Yeah. I- I've experienced that many times.

Rhonda Patrick 1:06:56 So like imagine if you could just put them in a sauna.

Joe Rogan 1:06:59 Mm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:00 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 And it would have a similar effect.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:03 In theory. We don't know yet. I mean, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:07:05 What ... Uh, how much body te- ... When ... What do you think your body temperature's getting to if you're at like what I do, which is like 185 degrees for 20, 25 minutes? It gets rough.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Like pre- c- especially at 25 minutes. The last five minutes are really hard.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:22 Yeah. So I asked, uh, Dr. Mason about this, um, because she's like gone around sh- ... into different like banyas and stuff in San Francisco and like had her friends like trying to like get the rectal thermometer and see like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:34 ... do this or do that. The problem is like (laughs) you know ... I don't-

Joe Rogan 1:07:37 People don't trust you at a sauna-

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:40 Um, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:40 ... with a rectal thermometer. They're like, "Hey."

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:42 (laughs) Yeah. I- I d- ... (laughs) I definitely agree with that. Uh, but she said she couldn't get ...... they, they didn't, there was nothing out there as intense as that, like, you know, most of these-

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 As intense as what they're doing?

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:52 ... like, 165. As ... No, as intense as-

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 Oh, as what I'm doing.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:56 ... what you're saying.

Joe Rogan 1:07:57 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:07:57 As what ... And it's, it's kind of what I do, so I do, like, 185, like, 15-20 minutes, depending on if I exercise.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 You, you've done it at Laird Hamilton's house, right?

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:05 I've done it at ... Uh, not yet. We've been, like, planning and planning and planning. I've done it at, uh, Rick Rubin's, and-

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Oh, okay.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:12 But his sauna was, like, 200-

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:15 ... and something. And then he had this, like, ice bath-

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:19 ... outside of the sauna.

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:21 And we were doing back and forth, and, like, that's the closest thing you're gonna get to a psychedelic experience without doing psychedelics, in my opinion. (laughs) It's, like, crazy. It changes your ... I mean, have you done that before?

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 The back and forth? Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 Today.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:36 Like, intent? You did?

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 Yeah, I have an ice bath. I have an ice bath right next to the sauna. I do it every day.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:43 What do you think? I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 It's, it's makes your whole head dizzy.

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:46 It does.

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 You go shaking back and forth, like-

Rhonda Patrick 1:08:48 It does.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 One thing I found is I, I can't stay in the ice bath as long after I've gotten out of the sauna, which is really odd, 'cause I almost feel like I'm gonna pass out. Like, when I get to, like, three minutes in the ice bath after 20-plus minutes in the sauna, like, my vision is shaky.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:05 Okay, so here's my anecdotal story. Um, so I was doing-

Joe Rogan 1:09:11 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:11 ... for a l- ... I, I mean, I was scared of ice baths for a long time, like, for months because of this. So back in the winter, when, um, before we had a cold plunge, we were using the pool because the pool was cold in the winter.

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 Right.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:21 It was like, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 Not heated.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:22 ... 50 degrees.

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:23 Yeah, you know, which is cold.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 Cold.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:26 It's cold. Like, it's not ice bath cold, like, that's insane-

Joe Rogan 1:09:28 Yeah.

Rhonda Patrick 1:09:28 ... but it's cold. And, um, so I was ... So this time, I was in the saun- ... I mean, I was in the, um, jacuzzi. I was in the jacuzzi for, like, 20 minutes, maybe 30, like, you know, I was getting my heat stress on, right? And then I went into the, the pool. And, um, you know, I had my Simon & Garfunkel on. I was, like, singing. I was trying to sing in there. It was cold, and I was, like, burning. It was burning, but I was in there for just not more than five minutes. Like, it was, you know ... And all of a sudden, I started to get really blinky and dizzy, and I was like, "Ooh, I don't feel good." So I got out of the pool, and I got some kind of vertigo or something. I couldn't stand. I had to go down to the f- ... I felt like I was dying, like I had to, like, go down low to the ground.

Joe Rogan 1:10:16 Hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:10:16 And, um, like, Dan was, like, assuring me, "It's okay. It's okay." And, um, and this lasted a f- ... A couple of minutes, like, a couple of minutes. I mean, I was, like, terrified. I was really terrified. I guess it's, it was kind of a vertigo. I didn't know what was up or down. I couldn't stand because it was, like, you know? And I felt like my blood pressure maybe was really low. I don't know what caused that. Um, I don't know if I had gotten cold water in my ear. There's some, like ... You can read some, like, anecdotal stories about cold water, n- cold water swimmers that, like, wear some kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:10:49 Mm-hmm.

Rhonda Patrick 1:10:49 ... earplugs because it can give them vertigo. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 They develop, like, bone matter in there. Do you know that?

Rhonda Patrick 1:10:55 No.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 Like surfer's ear? Yeah, a lot of them have to get, uh, they have to get operations on it, on their ears.

Rhonda Patrick 1:11:01 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 Yeah, their, their, there's something that happens to the inner ear. Like, find out if you can find what that is. It's called surfer's ear. A friend of mine got it.

Rhonda Patrick 1:11:08 Does that affect the balance and stuff? Does that give you vertigo?

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 I think so. I'm not sure. I've never surfed. But, um, I know that there's some sort of, like, bony thing. Oh, here, here we go. Surfer's ear is a condition where the bone of the ear canal develops multiple bony growths called exostone, -stosis, exostosis. Over time, this can eventually cause a partial or complete blockage of the ear canal. The condition is primarily caused by prolonged exposure to cold water-

Rhonda Patrick 1:11:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:37 ... or wind. Interesting.

Rhonda Patrick 1:11:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:39 So, like, you see those little weird bony growths in the inside of the ear. It's almost like your, your, p- your fucking skull's trying to protect you. Oh, that is so nasty. Inside of ears are so gross. I got, uh, a little, um, a thing I bought on Amazon. It's, uh, a camera that's, uh, attached to an ear cleaner. And you, uh, have an app on your phone, and you could actually stick this thing in your ear, and you could see the inside of your ear. It's wild.

Rhonda Patrick 1:12:06 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 It's wild.

Rhonda Patrick 1:12:07 Yeah. I, I wore, um, earplugs on the plane yesterday, and, uh, when I took them out, I was disgusted by the ear m- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:16 (laughs)

Rhonda Patrick 1:12:16 I don't know if I want to see more in there, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:12:18 Yeah, you can clean it out, though.

Rhonda Patrick 1:12:20 Yeah, I know. I, I've got really small ear canals.

Joe Rogan 1:12:23 Oh.

Rhonda Patrick 1:12:24 And I, like, get problems with that, and also, like, earplugs hurt me because my ear