Joe Rogan Experience #1701 - Rhonda Patrick

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drum music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) All right, we're up. What's happening, Rhonda?

   4. RPRhonda Patrick0:15

      Hey.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Very good to see you.

   6. RPRhonda Patrick0:16

      Good to see you. It's been a year.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      It has been. It's been quite a while.

   8. RPRhonda Patrick0:20

      Really. Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      And, uh, you were just telling me that you're 13 days into keto.

   10. RPRhonda Patrick0:24

       I am. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       How you feeling?

   12. RPRhonda Patrick0:26

       Well, let's start off with like why do I even wanna do keto? Why now?

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Right.

   14. RPRhonda Patrick0:30

       I mean, like this has been how many years that it's been trendy, it's been like there's lots of benefits, and it's like why did I start trying it out now? (laughs) Well, um, I've noticed that when I am in a fasted state, so when I'm in ketosis, when I'm, you know, burning fatty acids and making ketone bodies and using them as energy, I'm like on top of my mental game. So, I've been doing ... Like when I have any sort of like podcast interviews I'm doing, or whatever, you know, I'm always trying to do them fast. Like I'm fasted right now. Um, and so I thought to myself like is this something that could be mimicked by a ketogenic diet? Like it's very noticeable for me, where I can stay focused. Um, I have more endurance. So like I don't like, you know, crap out like, like a couple hours-

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       More mental- mental endurance.

   16. RPRhonda Patrick1:22

       Mental endurance, sorry.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       Yeah.

   18. RPRhonda Patrick1:23

       Yeah. More- more ment- mental endurance. So um, so I decided to try it out and I- I recently had a, uh, neuroscientist on the podcast, Dr. Mark Matsen. Have you heard of him?

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       No.

   20. RPRhonda Patrick1:34

       He's like legendary. I mean, he's probably one of the most cited neuroscientists, but he's most well known for his intermittent fasting studies, like the 5:2 intermin- intermittent fasting stuff came out of his lab. Um, he's also sort of the father of hormesis and like, like why, you know, humans sort of adapted to be in a stressful environment and how, you know, all these stress response pathways that happen, you know, as a response that are beneficial. But anyways, so he was, um, talking about like when you're in a fasted state, when you haven't eaten, how your nervous system has sort of evolved to become like more focused, more alert.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       Mm.

   22. RPRhonda Patrick2:12

       And that's adaptive because if you can't find food, you have to be like alert in order to like eat or else you'll die. So um, so he's talking about like one of the main things that happens is this metabolic switch, wh- is what he calls but ... Um, so you- you do switch from burning glucose, you know, as a source of energy to basically f- you know, fatty acids are mobilized from your adipose tissue and go to your liver and you start to like oxidize them, use them for energy, and then you make something called ketone bodies as- as a byproduct, beta-hydroxybutyrate, acetoacetate. And um, most people think about these, well, this is an alternative source of energy, across the blood-brain barrier. It, you know, is easily used by, um, you know, neurons and- and other cells as well, but it's- it's actually an energetically favorable source of energy. So it actually requires energy to use glucose as energy. (laughs) To make energy from glucose requires energy. But beta-hydroxybutyrate, that doesn't happen. Like it goes into the mitochondrion and it's used without that energy requirement. So you can imagine-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:21

       Can you explain how that works? Like, uh, the ... You use energy to use glucose?

   24. RPRhonda Patrick3:25

       Yeah, so glucose gets broken down into something called pyruvate. And pyruvate ... So it takes energy to do that and then pyruvate has to be transported into the mitochondria through a like active transport mechanism. And that requires energy to do that. Once it gets into the mit- ... Pyruvate gets into the mitochondria, it's then used through what's called the TCA cycle to make energy. Um, ac- acetyl ... So beta-hydroxybutyrate gets converted into acetyl-CoA and beta-hydroxybutyrate can just go in without like this active transport mechanism, so you're not requiring that energy to transport it in. Does that make sense?

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:00

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RPRhonda Patrick4:00

       So you're making energy but you're not using as much energy to make that energy. So um, that's kind of like what, you know, most people are thinking about is this. This sort of metabolic switch that happens. And you can imagine most people never do that. Like I- I typically ... I was, you know, doing ... I do a lot of time-restricted eating where I'll eat my food anywhere between eight to 10 hours and then I'm fasting anywhere between like 14 to 16 hours a day. And in order to actually go into this metabolic switch you have to deplete all of your glycogen levels in your liver and muscle. Um, and that usually takes anywhere between 13 to 36 hours depending on the person's carbohydrate intake, on their physical activity. And so um, you know, most people never get that metabolic switch. Most people are just constantly burning, using glucose and then when you're doing that, any fat that you're taking in gets stored as triglycerides in adipose tissue. So they're always in this like fat storage state instead of a fat burning state, right? And so um, 'cause most people are eating three meals a day and plus snacks, uh, you just ... You never get there. So um, with the- with the, you know, my s- ... You know, anywhere between 14 to 16 hours is what I typically was- was doing, I'd notice that like I was really mentally sharp. And so as I extended that out a little bit, it was like really clear to me that like not eating was like good for my brain in terms of like, like I felt smarter, I felt like focused more.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:32

       Mm.

   28. RPRhonda Patrick5:32

       Like it was- it was noticeable, like- like a nootropic effect, right? And so um, one of the other things that's probably less well known about beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is one of the major circulating ketones you do make when you're in ketosis, is that it is actually a signaling molecule and this was shown by Dr. Eric Verdin. He's uh, he runs the Buck- Buck Institute for Aging in Novato, California. Um, he showed, back when he was at UCSF, that beta-hydroxybutyrate activates-... like many different genes, one of them including brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF, which I know we've talked about before on the podcast. But that's something that is critical for, you know, forming new synapses and for learning and memory. I mean, there's... it's... there's all sorts of things that it does. But beta-hydroxybutyrate's activating that. Like, it's not just something that's being used as energy. Like, it's ch- like changing gene expression. Um, so, so that got me really interested. It's like, wow, this is something that, like, could be possibly also activating BDNF, maybe that's partly why. I mean, it's a hypothesis, but, you know, it seems, it seems like something that people could test, and it seems kind of, you know... it makes sense, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       Mm-hmm.

   30. RPRhonda Patrick6:47

       Um, and so, uh, so that was something that I was like, "Wow, what if I could do..." So, I a- so I asked Dr. Mattson, I was like, "What are..." You know, there's lots of, you know, differences between being in a fast-induced ketosis and a ketogenic diet, but there's also a lot of similarities, and the similarities are, one, you're making lots of beta-hydroxybutyrate if you do the ketogenic d- diet, right? We can talk about that (laughs) . But, um, and so, I was like, "Wow, well maybe..." And then the other thing that's o- that overlaps between the two is that you produce a lot of GABA. GABA's the, the neurotransmitter that's typically more of an inhibitory type of neurotransmitter. Um, I'm, I'm sure, uh, Doc- Dr. Dom D'Agostino's talked about this. I think I even re- remember him talking-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   And this is only…

   1. RPRhonda Patrick15:00

      from 12 or 13 days of a ketogenic diet. And so, um, you can experience some of the, like, effects, but it also has the effect of lowering your blood glucose at the same time. And it's like, this is something that researchers are actually looking into, like, "Oh, this could potentially help people that can't regulate their blood sugar levels," you know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      And this is only through exogenous-

   3. RPRhonda Patrick15:21

      This is... Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      ... ketones?

   5. RPRhonda Patrick15:23

      The k- like-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:23

      The esters?

   7. RPRhonda Patrick15:24

      The exogenous ketone esters, yes. I have not-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:26

      So it lowers your blood glucose and-

   9. RPRhonda Patrick15:27

      Dramatically.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       Wow.

   11. RPRhonda Patrick15:29

       But the, the problem with that is they're very short-lived. They're very transient. So, like, every time I've done it, l- like, they wear off, like, two hours max. Two hours max.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       Hmmm.

   13. RPRhonda Patrick15:41

       The problem is your blood glucose is also dramatically lower, and if you don't eat, if you don't, like, replenish that, like, you can crash hard. Like-

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       Hmmm.

   15. RPRhonda Patrick15:49

       ... you can crash hard 'cause you have no beta-hydroxybutyrate around as the energy source. Now, whereas you're in ketosis, actual ketosis, your blood sugar levels are lower, but you're making beta-hydroxybutyrate, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       Would, would there be a benefit to do that, like say, if you were gonna do something that was, like, mentally taxing, if you're gonna take a test or something like that? Would there, would there be a benefit in taking exogenous ketones?

   17. RPRhonda Patrick16:11

       So I have... I used to kind of use them that way. Uh, but again, if you don't... It's short lived, and if you-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Would you take it with some sort of glucose?

   19. RPRhonda Patrick16:19

       I used to take it with carbohydrates. Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       Like fruits or something?

   21. RPRhonda Patrick16:22

       Like oatmeal or fruit.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RPRhonda Patrick16:23

       Exactly. Um, eh, but even that, like, you know, your blood glucose will peak, and then two hours later, it's gonna go back down. So you still... You need to, like, keep that source going.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       Hmmm.

   25. RPRhonda Patrick16:32

       Um, so, and I've... and I noticed that, like, several times. It was like, "Oh, this is good for a very..." Really, the peak of it was, like, an hour.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:40

       And is there-

   27. RPRhonda Patrick16:40

       Y-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:40

       ... when you take these, um, ketone esters, is there a number of them? Like, is there an amount you can take in a day or the amount of times you can take it in a day? Can you only do it once? Like-

   29. RPRhonda Patrick16:50

       People... I mean, some of these, um, companies that make them claim you can do it more than once a day. I know people that do it. Um, personally, I think the benefit of the ketone ester is, and I'll tell you what I've used it for. I tried the mental stuff, but... So, um, getting someone who you think will benefit from ketosis, from a ketogenic diet, getting them to do it. Like, it... This diet's hard. It is hard. (laughs) It's hard. I can't, like... Like, emphasize it, like actually doing it, like, I'm telling you, I think people are... think they're doing it, and they're not. What they're doing is just a low, low, low carb diet. It's different.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:24

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Dibe-- used to... Did…

   1. RPRhonda Patrick30:00

      because they're really high in omega-3. There's, like, almost a thousand, there's like 800 or something milligrams of EPA and almost, um, like 500 or something. I, it, there, like, of DHA. There's, like, literally, like, a ton of omega-3 in my, in my sardines. And, um, they're in olive oil. The olive oil tastes a little fishy, but I also have a little chili in it. There's like a, so it's like a spicy-So, I've- I've got like four, five of those that I brought with me.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:25

      Dibe-- used to... Did I tell you that I used to eat those every day? And then I got my blood work done, I had a level of arsenic that was a little disturbing, and the- the doctor started asking me questions, like, "What's your diet like?" We go over that, he goes, "What do... Is there any, uh... Do you eat any canned fish?" And I said, "Yeah, I eat sardines, like, every day." He goes, "That's it." He goes, "Cut that out. Let's try it again in a couple of months."

   3. RPRhonda Patrick30:47

      And? Wh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:47

      So, I cut... Yeah, it was gone.

   5. RPRhonda Patrick30:48

      It- it was-

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:49

      It was-

   7. RPRhonda Patrick30:49

      ... specifically it was arsenic?

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:50

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, arsenic.

   9. RPRhonda Patrick30:52

      Really?

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:52

       Yeah.

   11. RPRhonda Patrick30:52

       No. So, that's interesting because-

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       They're dirty little fish. They're dirty little fish at the bottom of the sea.

   13. RPRhonda Patrick30:57

       Oh, my... I'm gonna have to do an- I've done an arsenic test before, um, and-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       How long ago?

   15. RPRhonda Patrick31:03

       This was (sighs) ... It was, like, maybe two and a half years ago. Two and a half years ago, I did the-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:08

       But you weren't eat... Like, you're eating these every day now?

   17. RPRhonda Patrick31:11

       I mean, I was not eating these every day when I did this test. No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:13

       But you are now?

   19. RPRhonda Patrick31:14

       I am now.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       Yeah.

   21. RPRhonda Patrick31:15

       So I gotta do it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       You should get it checked.

   23. RPRhonda Patrick31:16

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       Because they- they do... They contain a lot of heavy metals, apparently.

   25. RPRhonda Patrick31:19

       Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Yeah. Pollution.

   27. RPRhonda Patrick31:21

       Oh, no.

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:22

       Oh, no.

   29. RPRhonda Patrick31:24

       (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       I mean, this is just my experience, maybe-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Can you explain in…

   1. RPRhonda Patrick45:00

      did anything, but, um, that was part of my, my, you know, protocol. And then, uh, topical, I was, I put garlic, so I would open up one of those garlic pills, and then I did tea tree oil. That was a big one that was shown to have, like, an effect, particularly on MRSA. And, um, so I was putting tea tree oil, and then I was also taking grapefruit seed extract orally 'cause that was shown to have an effect. And, um, I was taking EGCG, which is, like, from green tea. It also has- shown to have, like, uh ... These are all, you know, studies in vitro showing it has an effect on staph, uh, MRSA. You know, grain of salt, it's like, okay, in vitro, you put it on it, it's like, it kills it with a dose of X.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:39

      Can you explain in vitro to people, that it's just cell culture?

   3. RPRhonda Patrick45:41

      Yeah. So you basically put something in cells that are in a Petri dish, you know, so it's- it's hard to extrapolate something like that to a human. But I was desperate and, you know, it was like, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna..." And I was taking this stuff, like the oral stuff, like the garlic and the grapefruit seed extract, and I was taking it, like, every one to two hours.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:01

      Is there any benefit to taking fresh garlic versus taking it in a pill form or even, like, using it as, like, you were saying you took the capsules. Would be- there be benefit in taking the actual real garlic?

   5. RPRhonda Patrick46:13

      Well, the garlic, real garlic is great too, Then once this- once it, like, this thing went away for good, I was like, "Oh, garlic is the bomb." You know? So I would eat garlic any time I would feel any k- sort of sick or anything like that. But the oil's highly concentrated, you know what I mean? You're like smashing down all the oils from the garlic. So-

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:29

      So the- the- there are k- uh, capsule?

   7. RPRhonda Patrick46:30

      There's- it was a capsule with oil, garlic oil.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:33

      Oh, okay.

   9. RPRhonda Patrick46:33

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       It's not powder.

   11. RPRhonda Patrick46:34

       Garlic- garlic oil. No, it's not powder.

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:36

       Mm-hmm.

   13. RPRhonda Patrick46:36

       Yeah. It was garlic oil that I was doing at the time. I mean-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       So you'd cut open the capsule and just put it on the abscess?

   15. RPRhonda Patrick46:42

       I would cut it open and I would put it on topically, and it didn't smell good. Um-

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       (laughs)

   17. RPRhonda Patrick46:45

       ... along with the tea tree oil. (laughs) But, um, I was, like, determined. I was like, "I'm gonna try this."

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:51

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RPRhonda Patrick46:51

       You know, I- I kind of am that way, like, I- when I try something, I'm like, "I'm gonna try it." Like, "I'm gonna really-"

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:58

       Yeah.

   21. RPRhonda Patrick46:58

       "... give it a shot." Like, "I'm gonna do it." And so, um, so I was like, "Yeah, I stink, whatever, you know, deal with it."

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:03

       (laughs)

   23. RPRhonda Patrick47:03

       And it worked. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:05

       How long did it take to-

   25. RPRhonda Patrick47:06

       It was-

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:06

       ... clear up?

   27. RPRhonda Patrick47:07

       ... really quick.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. RPRhonda Patrick47:08

       I mean, I think my memory was something like two days for me to notice, like two days it was like ... It pussed out, so, like, the abscess, like, it- it, like, pussed out and, like, literally within, like, two days.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:21

       Mm-hmm.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:28

   Right. I don't know.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      form of heat?

   2. RPRhonda Patrick1:00:01

      Right. I don't know. I know that, like, it- to me, that would make sense, and this was- you have to, like, discuss this with your physician. But like, for example, s- people that have, like, arrhythmias, there could be a very mild contraindication with arrhythmias. And so the question is, you know, would a lower temperature, like 165, which is what I've been doing for my mom, like, mostly because she's not adapted to h- the heat at all, and so, like, you have to adapt before you can, like, do 20 minutes at 185. You know, like, it takes- takes a while for people that aren't used to even raising their core body temperature when they're exercising, you know.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. RPRhonda Patrick1:00:36

      So again, that's mimical- it's mimicking a lot of the physiological aspects, including that core body tem- core body temperature going up, you know, the- the- the blood flow changes going to your skin and sweating, heart rate. You know, your heart rate gets elevated while you're in the sauna, and then it- and then blood pressure goes down after. Like, these things have been compared head to head. So, it does mimic moderate aerobic activity, and it's, like, the only way that I'm able to get my mom in there.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RPRhonda Patrick1:01:01

      And then there's, like, the brain benefits, you know, and this is something, um, people- people that are- are, um, depressed, like my mom actually has- she's been diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And, um, you know, you look at a ... She's got a variety of SNPs, like prop- like, there are certain SNPs that she has that are, you know, consistent, like in the serotonin transporter and things like that. You can look and see, like, there, you know, there's evidence that she has things that have been linked to, like, you know-... major depressive disorder. And also, she's had a lifetime of being inactive, and there's a lot of environmental factors at play, you know, like drinking Cokes, like refined sugar, you know? I mean, that's inflammation. But, um, there's been some evidence from Dr. Charles Raison. He was the first to show that like a single, what they called whole body hyperthermia, which is basically, they were using this really expensive device to elevate people's core body temperature to like 101 degrees Fahrenheit. I mean, they were doing a fever. I mean, they were getting hot. And they had a sham control, people that were th- ... They were elevating their core body temperature a little bit, so they thought they were getting the treatment, but they weren't. So it was- it was-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:09

      How were they elevating the core body temperature?

   8. RPRhonda Patrick1:02:11

      There was ... It's- it's kinda like some ... It's- it's called the Heckel device. It's like this crazy thing that has kind of infrared-ish, like, where it's doing it, like, through like that, like what an infrared sauna would do basically.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:02:22

      Okay. Mm-hmm.

   10. RPRhonda Patrick1:02:22

       Um, and- and so they did this in the- in the people that were, uh, in the sham c- control group, which is kinda like the placebo in a way. And so 70% of those people in that group actually thought they were getting the treatment, so it was a wonderful placebo because with anything depression, like placebo effect is a very real thing. And people know they're getting a treatment, they're gonna feel better. Like, yeah, this works, you know?

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:02:44

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RPRhonda Patrick1:02:45

       So it's important to have that control. Um, and they showed just one, like one exposure to this, there was a huge antidepressant effect that lasted six weeks. Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       What? One?

   14. RPRhonda Patrick1:02:57

       One.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:02:57

       One session?

   16. RPRhonda Patrick1:02:58

       One session. One session. And the mechanism for this is completely unknown. Uh, we t- ... We talk a l- ... Like Theresa and I talk a little bit about this in- in our recent publication. Um, but it's also a topic page on my website. It's the sauna, like we have like a 20-something page, you know, article that is a lot of this on the website. Um, but y- uh, part of it could be like there's a million things. So here's the thing. There's a- a new ... So Dr. Ashley Mason, she is, uh, at UCSF, and she specializes in non-pharmacological treatments for depression or sleep. And she actually trained with Dr. Charles Raison, and she sort of carried on the torch. Um, and I'm collaborating with her now, which is really cool, on, um, an ex- ... on a clinical trial where she's basically taken ... Forget that device, like it's too ... It's like $50,000. It's like all this FDA tape and like to get it and like use it and ... So she's, like, found a way to basically get an infrared sauna where people are laying in this like tent with their head out.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:01

       Mm-hmm.

   18. RPRhonda Patrick1:04:01

       And sh- ... They're in there for a- a long time, and, um, they're measuring their rectal temperature and making sure they get up to like 101. And it's like a silicone probe. It's really easy to ... You know, it's not like uncomfortable. But these people are getting hot. They're getting so hot that like, you know, technicians are having to like cool them down with wet towels, you know, and like while they're in this thing because they have to be in to that degree where they're- they're getting like a fever or something.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:25

       So they're cooling their head? Is that what they're doing?

   20. RPRhonda Patrick1:04:26

       They're cooling their head. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:04:28

       Okay.

   22. RPRhonda Patrick1:04:28

       But- but she's done a proof of principle study on people that are not depressed that show- shows that it's like not dangerous basically. It's not dangerous. People will do it, and that's kinda like you have to like show that before you can like go onto the next step and- and use it as a potential clinical treatment for depression. So now this study that she's going to be starting any t- any day, uh, which I'm collaborating with her on, is she's going to be recruiting clinically depressed, um, patients or participants and- and giving them this treatment. They're g- ... And it's gonna be a dose ec- escalation. In other words, she's gonna try to do it at least eight weeks. By which the first one was one time, so once a week for eight weeks. So they're gonna be, you know, see if they can even do this, like if they can handle it, right? And, um, she's gonna combine it with cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, because that's a known treatment to help with depression. And you can't start any study without giving like a treatment that's known to work 'cause it's like unethical. But what I'm excited about is the biomarkers that we're gonna measure, like, you know, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. That's been shown to play a role in depression. Um, and it's one of the major things, like exercise increases it, and there's been studies showing hot baths increase brain-derived neurot- neurotrophic factor BDNF. Um, so, you know, it's like, well, let's see w- ... Let's see if the sauna's doing that. Like that would be one potential mechanism. And then there's a variety of other ... We'll mention heat shock proteins. They've been shown to play a role in, um, mood in animal studies and a variety of inflammatory biomarkers because what was interesting about that pilot study by Dr. Charles Raison was that he found the people that had the most robust antidepressant effect had higher levels of something called IL-6. IL-6 is a cytokine. It's- it's kind of often referred to as like a Janus cytokine because it's like both pro- and anti-inflammatory. It has like both effects. It's- it's something that is h- ... you know, elevated when you exercise. And, um, it ... You know, there's a- a robust anti-inflammatory response in some cases, like IL-10 and things that are anti-inflammatory. Anyways, he found people that had the highest levels of IL-6 tend to had the- have the most robust effects of the sauna. So a variety of interesting things. Super exciting because like, you know, like if this could be a potential treatment, getting people ... And like I know you and I have talked about this (laughs) like probably a million times, but like getting depressed people to go exercise, like is not easy.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:06:52

       Right.

   24. RPRhonda Patrick1:06:53

       Like they don't have that motivation.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:06:54

       Yeah. I- I've experienced that many times.

   26. RPRhonda Patrick1:06:56

       So like imagine if you could just put them in a sauna.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:06:59

       Mm.

   28. RPRhonda Patrick1:07:00

       Right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:07:01

       And it would have a similar effect.

   30. RPRhonda Patrick1:07:03

       In theory. We don't know yet. I mean, you know.

Episode duration: 3:03:23