Joe Rogan Experience #1702 - Laurie Woolever

1. 0:00 – 2:04

   Roadrunner documentary backlash and the brief AI-voice controversy

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. LWLaurie Woolever0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Oh, hi, Laurie.

   4. LWLaurie Woolever0:13

      Hi. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's happening?

   6. LWLaurie Woolever0:14

      Not much.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Pleasure to meet you.

   8. LWLaurie Woolever0:15

      Thank you, same to you.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Um, I tried watching the M- Boardane documentary, but I just, uh, I got too sad. I couldn't do it. And did it f- did it feel weird? Did you watch it, Roadrunner?

   10. LWLaurie Woolever0:26

       Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Did it feel weird when you knew that the voice was AI, sort of a recreation of his words?

   12. LWLaurie Woolever0:35

       It didn't feel weird to me because honestly, it was less than 45 seconds in a two-hour film.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       Oh, okay.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever0:40

       So, no. It didn't feel weird. I, I knew exactly where one of the places was that it was the AI, but the vast majority of that film is Tony's actual voice, and I think that really got lost in the discussion around the film.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Oh, it certainly did. Yeah, I, I was under the impression that the whole thing was-

   16. LWLaurie Woolever0:58

       Mm-mm. No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       That's how people are, they're so gross.

   18. LWLaurie Woolever1:00

       Well-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       They always wanna find the one thing (laughs) that's negative about things.

   20. LWLaurie Woolever1:03

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       (laughs)

   22. LWLaurie Woolever1:04

       Yeah. It really bummed me out because that was the, that was the dominant conversation-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       Yeah.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever1:08

       ... on opening weekend, and it really k- kinda took away, for me, from, you know, the... It's a beautiful film. I was a, a consulting producer, so obviously, I have a dog in the fight, and I want people-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LWLaurie Woolever1:18

       ... to love the film, but I think it's, I think it's great. It is really sad. How far into it did you get?

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       I just started it and I shut it off.

   28. LWLaurie Woolever1:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       (sighs) I just got too sad. I just, uh, uh, maybe it was my mood that day.

   30. LWLaurie Woolever1:33

       Mm-hmm.
2. 2:04 – 5:10

   Shock, guilt, and the lingering ‘what if’ after Bourdain’s death

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:04

      There's always this feeling when someone takes their own life, like, if I could have just talked to them.

   2. LWLaurie Woolever2:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      Like, if I was there, if I could've talked to them.

   4. LWLaurie Woolever2:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      That's ... You know, I talked to David Choe and he had, he had that same, (sniffs) he had that same take on it, you know. It's just-

   6. LWLaurie Woolever2:23

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      You just don't know. You know, you feel like y- you, you fucked something up. Like, you feel like y- (sighs) it's just, it's, there's n- there's no, there's no peace, you know. If you're always ... If I think about him, I, I, (sighs) I just always think, like, "What a shame. What a shame." You know?

   8. LWLaurie Woolever2:53

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:53

      Like, s- a guy who was so interesting and so loved (sniffs) you know, to ... I found out about it from, uh, Maynard Keenan from Tool.

   10. LWLaurie Woolever3:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:03

       Do you know the story?

   12. LWLaurie Woolever3:04

       I, I listened to you, uh, talk to, uh, Tom Papa right after, uh, Tony died, so yeah, I-

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       Yeah.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever3:10

       He made kind of a, a joke, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:13

       Sure, joked and went on. Yeah, J- Maynard's a funny guy. And he was joking around. He had b- said that, you know, he knew that Tony was really into jujitsu.

   16. LWLaurie Woolever3:20

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       And Maynard really into jujitsu too, and he's like, "We should have a celebrity match," you know, "That would be awesome." And he was talking about it, and then he texted me and said, "I guess the celebrity match is off."

   18. LWLaurie Woolever3:31

       Hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       And I was like, "What does that mean?" Like, I, I guess he has just assumed that I would have already known about it, but I was in Chicago and I had just woke up. (sniffs)

   20. LWLaurie Woolever3:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:40

       So then I googled it and I was just like, "Ugh."

   22. LWLaurie Woolever3:44

       Yeah. That's not a great way. I mean, there is no good way to find out that news, but, uh, that's, uh, sounds like a particularly painful way to, uh, to hear it, um.

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       It was confusing, you know.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever3:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       It's a, it's painful but it's like pain... It's, it's almost like it's painful later.

   26. LWLaurie Woolever4:00

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:00

       In the beginning, it's just like ...

   28. LWLaurie Woolever4:02

       Shock.

   29. JRJoe Rogan4:03

       You're baffled.

   30. LWLaurie Woolever4:04

       Mm-hmm.
3. 5:10 – 6:35

   Why that final week was so hard: public relationship turmoil and humiliation

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      Why was that week so particularly hard?

   2. LWLaurie Woolever5:12

      He was ... There were some stuff in the media with, uh, with him and his girlfriend that was, you know, not great. Uh, you know, he was very, very in love and, uh, I think there was some ... I mean, this is, I'm not saying anything that isn't public record and I'm always hesitant to talk too much about, about all of that. But it's, you know, it was, it's out there. It was in the, uh, Italian press and maybe the French press that, uh, that his girlfriend had been maybe or maybe not with another guy. There were a lot of pictures that made it look (sighs) not great. And I think that was really hard for him. Um, and you know, you'll see they talk about it. He, it gets talked about in the film, it gets talked about in my book. Um, you know, I think he was-

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:55

      (clears throat)

   4. LWLaurie Woolever5:55

      ... he was deeply in love and I think (sniffs) he was realizing that this relationship maybe wasn't what he thought it was or that it just... I think he felt humiliated, honestly, you know. And I mean-... uh, that's a hard, that's a hard thing for a private person to metabolize. And then, you know, you're extremely public person who has been extremely public about this relationship, I think it was a lot for him to handle in that week.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:23

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's not much you can do when that happens in terms of, like, talking to a friend.

   6. LWLaurie Woolever6:29

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:29

      Like, words just don't work.

   8. LWLaurie Woolever6:31

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:31

      You know? Like, they, they don't ... You don't ... You're not gonna absorb them.

4. 6:35 – 8:16

   The Bourdain people knew vs. the one they didn’t: complexity, loneliness, and hidden layers

   1. LWLaurie Woolever6:35

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, uh, you know, it's ... I don't know that someone ... I don't know that a normal thing ... I don't know that a normal reaction to romantic trouble is to take your own life. I don't, I, you know, clearly there's, you know, there are plenty of people who have trouble in their relationships who stay alive. Uh, you know, he was a really complicated guy. He was a really, uh ... I think as, as public as he was and as much as he shared about the way that his mind and his heart worked, I think there was a lot that he didn't share, and I think he was more troubled and more lonely and sad than I think any of us knew at the time. Uh, you know, in the intervening three years, I've learned a lot more about him, and I thought I knew him inside and out. I was his assistant for 10 years. You know, we wrote a book together. Uh, I had done some traveling with him, not extensively, but I did a handful of trips over the years. You know, we were in contact every day and, um, you know, est- ... When I started to talk to people after he died, there was just a lot, a lot more to him, a lot more to his story.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:48

      Yeah, whenever anybody, um, recovers from a serious drug problem but yet still parties-

   3. LWLaurie Woolever7:57

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:57

      ... I was always like, "Hmm, how's he pulling that off?"

   5. LWLaurie Woolever8:00

      Mm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan8:01

      Like, the first time I hung out with him, I knew that he had gotten over the heroin thing, but I didn't quite realize how hard he drank. I was like, "Whoa." (laughs)

   7. LWLaurie Woolever8:12

      Yeah. Yeah. Was that in, uh, Montana when you guys-

   8. JRJoe Rogan8:15

      No, that was later.

   9. LWLaurie Woolever8:16

      Okay.

5. 8:16 – 10:03

   First meetings, awkward moments, and Bourdain’s signature ‘you’re an idiot’ look

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:16

      That was after I'd known him for quite a while. I mean, I think the first time I hung out with him was in Vegas.

   2. LWLaurie Woolever8:22

      Oh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:22

      Pretty sure. Um, it was when he was married to Octavia.

   4. LWLaurie Woolever8:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:27

      And, um, they were, uh, there for the UFC.

   6. LWLaurie Woolever8:31

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:31

      And I met him backstage.

   8. LWLaurie Woolever8:33

      Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:33

      I was like, "Wow." It was interesting. It was one of the few people that I've met that I was, like, a little starstruck.

   10. LWLaurie Woolever8:39

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       And I, I said something really clunky 'cause, uh ... (laughs) Like one is to do when they meet someone they really admire-

   12. LWLaurie Woolever8:46

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:46

       ... my wife always used to say that he's my boyfriend 'cause I was w- I would watch No Reservations all the time.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever8:51

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:51

       She's like, "Oh, you're watching your boyfriend."

   16. LWLaurie Woolever8:52

       Mm. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:53

       And so I said, "Uh, my wife says you're my boyfriend." And he was like, "What the fuck?" (laughs)

   18. LWLaurie Woolever8:57

       Like ... (laughs) He was so good at giving you that look.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       Yeah.

   20. LWLaurie Woolever9:01

       Like, I, I've said a couple of real stupid things to him too, and, uh, uh, I'll just never forget it. We were standing in the telephone store t- you know, trying to upgrade my phone, and, uh, I, I was, you know, g- kinda new to the job and nervous. And I was like, "Oh, what the ... What are we gonna talk about for 10 minutes?" You know, so I just said, "How do you decide, like, who to respond to on Twitter?" And he just gave me this look like, "Are ... You're the fucking stupidest person I've ever met in my life."

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:26

       (laughs)

   22. LWLaurie Woolever9:26

       You know, and I know he respected me and I know he liked me, but I was just like, "Oh, God."

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       (laughs)

   24. LWLaurie Woolever9:32

       "Sorry."

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:32

       It's actually not a bad question.

   26. LWLaurie Woolever9:34

       Yeah, I just, I don't know. He just was like ... Yeah, I don't know. He just ... The look on his face was just like, "Oh, man, I should've just kept my mouth shut." And actually David Simon told me a similar story that in, I'm- You know who David Simon, the creator of The Wire-

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LWLaurie Woolever9:47

       ... and Treme and, you know, really smart, articulate, funny guy, and he told me that he said something to Tony that just, he just got that look, that like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:56

       (laughs)

   30. LWLaurie Woolever9:56

       ... "You're a fucking idiot" look, you know?
6. 10:03 – 13:58

   Bourdain’s jiu-jitsu obsession: transformation, recruitment, and going all-in

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      Yeah. I got really excited when Tony got into jujitsu.

   2. LWLaurie Woolever10:06

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:06

      'Cause I'm like, "Well, now we have something really in common."

   4. LWLaurie Woolever10:09

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:09

      "That, that I'm really good at."

   6. LWLaurie Woolever10:11

      Mm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:11

      "So now we could talk." (laughs)

   8. LWLaurie Woolever10:12

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:13

      You know? It's like a-

   10. LWLaurie Woolever10:14

       I'm sure you were probably an influen- I mean, Octavia obviously was the biggest influence, but I'm sure, you know, knowing that you did it too was another, you know, another strong reason to, to get involved with it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:24

       Well, that's very nice.

   12. LWLaurie Woolever10:25

       Well-

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:26

       I'm, I'm happy that that's the case, if that's the case. But it was really interesting to watch him, um ... It's very rare that a person is, uh, deep in their 50s and has lived a, you know, fairly sedentary lifestyle, certainly not athletic, certainly not, um, uh, like ... Jujitsu is a difficult endeavor.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever10:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:45

       It's not like taking up squash-

   16. LWLaurie Woolever10:47

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       ... which I'm, I don't ... Maybe squash is hard too. I don't know. I've never played squash. But it's not like ... It's, it's, it's very intimate-

   18. LWLaurie Woolever10:53

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:54

       ... where someone is literally practicing killing you.

   20. LWLaurie Woolever10:57

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:57

       And you're trying to resist that. And so to watch him get really into it and then to watch him, watch his personality sort of, like, shift into that there's a j- sort of a jujitsu mindset that you get when you start doing it all the time, you start training, you start building confidence, and you start, like, get- getting really into it. Like, he was fucking into it.

   22. LWLaurie Woolever11:20

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       Like, when we did that trip in Montana-... he was asking me questions, and we started doing, I was demonstrating shit on him in the dirt.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever11:27

       Mm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       Like, (laughs) we were, we were in the dirt and I'm like, "When you're in this position..." And we were, like, going over stuff, like, on the ground-

   26. LWLaurie Woolever11:34

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:35

       ... in Montana. I'm like, that's how into it was. Like, he was really-

   28. LWLaurie Woolever11:38

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:38

       ... he wanted to ask questions. He wanted to go over moves. I was like, "Wow," you know, like, "You're really all in."

   30. LWLaurie Woolever11:44

       Yeah. It was, I, I think, you know, Mo Fallon, I think said this to you, and he said it in the, in the film and in the book as well. But, you know, if you weren't, like, I was not into jujitsu, it did not matter. Like, T- Tony would just talk to you about it anyway, you know. You just have to be like, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh." You know, like either feign interest or, you know, like-
7. 13:58 – 18:26

   How Laurie started working with Bourdain: from Mario Batali to the Les Halles Cookbook

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:58

      What... When did you... Like, how did your relationship with him start? How did your working relationship start?

   2. LWLaurie Woolever14:05

      So, I had been Mario Batali's assistant for a number of years, like in the late '90s, early 2000s. And, uh, Mario and Tony became friends sort of at the same level of rising celebrity in New York in the restaurant world and in media. And I was leaving Mari- the job with Mario, and Tony asked him if he knew anybody that could help him, uh, with a cookbook that he was starting to work on, the, it was called Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles Cookbook. It was his first cookbook. And, uh, Mario recommended me, and Tony kind of hired me sight unseen, I think, because, you know, if I worked for Mario, then I was, that was like a seal of approval for him. Uh, so he, that, that was our first time working together was I did re- reci- recipe editing and testing on that cookbook. I think we met in person probably twice. Everything was on email 'cause he was already starting to travel for television. He was still, kind of had one foot in the kitchen at Les Halles. Uh, but we had a great working relationship.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:04

      So when you say, like, r- recipe editing and testing, what does that entail? Like, how does that work?

   4. LWLaurie Woolever15:08

      So, it's different for every project, but for this project, uh, I would get the recipes from the kitchen at Les Halles. So they were in huge quantities, and they were written in, like, a very concise shorthand meant for the cooks to use. They were not appropriate for a cookbook. Uh, so I would take those. A- and I had been to cooking school, and I'd worked a little bit as a cook, and so I knew, I knew how to deal with a recipe. I knew how to cook and kind of what the... my way around the kitchen. So I would take those recipes, scale them way down, um, kind of put them into a more, uh, accessible language for a home cook, and then test them at home and make sure that when I change the proportions and everything, the timing and the temperatures and that it all still worked for a, for a home cook.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      So was it, uh, uh, were these, like, dishes meant for large groups of people? Like, what, how'd you have to scale it down?

   6. LWLaurie Woolever16:00

      Well, because when you're making it in a restaurant, you know, you're preparing enough for 60 portions in a night, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:07

      Like certain side dishes and things along those lines?

   8. LWLaurie Woolever16:09

      Yeah. I mean, anything really. You know, if you're making a, uh, you know, I don't know, a soup, you know, you, you wanna, you think you might sell 40 portions of soup that night, so you're making a huge batch of soup. At home, you don't want that much soup, you know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:22

      Right.

   10. LWLaurie Woolever16:22

       You might wanna make enough for eight people. So that was, that's kind of the scaling. I mean, there's, it, nobody... There's no reason to do anything in small quantities in a restaurant.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       And when you say shorthand, do you mean shorthand like, like how some secretaries write shorthand?

   12. LWLaurie Woolever16:36

       No, no. (laughs) Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       'Cause I've seen people do that. I'm like, "What is that chicken scratch," right?

   14. LWLaurie Woolever16:41

       Wow. Yeah, that's like Latin. I mean, I'm surprised-

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Why?

   16. LWLaurie Woolever16:43

       ... anybody even does that anymore.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Yeah.

   18. LWLaurie Woolever16:45

       It's cool, but I don't know. No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       But they do still, right? Is that a dying thing?

   20. LWLaurie Woolever16:49

       I... I think it must be, right? Like that's from the days of the-

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       You ever seen it, Jo- Tony? I mean, Jamie, whatever the fuck your name is?

   22. LWLaurie Woolever16:54

       (laughs) Hey. Uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:55

       You ever seen it? Yeah, the court reporters still do something weird like that, but it's not the same, right? They do it typing though, right? They only have, like, five buttons to use. Right. So they have combinations of it that equal things. I don't ever- What do they do? I've never tried to read it. I've looked at it once. I have no idea. With those five buttons. This fucking kangaroo court system we have in this country.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever17:13

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       Yeah, but I've seen people write in the shorthand, and I'm like, that is, like, how does one even learn that today? And is that necessary? Can't you just audio record-

   26. LWLaurie Woolever17:21

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       ... like on your phone? Like you could just, like if someone wants to, you know, dictate-

   28. LWLaurie Woolever17:26

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       ... to you-... be so much easier. There it is. Like, what is that?

   30. LWLaurie Woolever17:29

       Oh, wow.
8. 18:26 – 25:42

   Early fame and imposter syndrome: ‘this could end any minute’

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:26

      When you were doing this, he was just a local celebrity in the New York restaurant scene, right? Had he had No Reservations started yet? Or-

   2. LWLaurie Woolever18:36

      This was-

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:36

      Kitchen Confidential?

   4. LWLaurie Woolever18:38

      Yeah, so Kitchen Confidential came out in 2000.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:40

      Mm.

   6. LWLaurie Woolever18:40

      So, he was already on the rise. I think he was a, a season or two into A Cook's Tour, which was the very first iteration of Tony on television.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:50

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LWLaurie Woolever18:51

      Uh, but there was no... You know, he was always would say, like, "I've got my 15 minutes. I have no expectation that this is gonna, you know, last forever. I'm gonna do as much as I can while I can." But I think he was always waiting for someone to pull the rug out from under him, you know, I, I, as far as being a, a celebrity, whatever that means.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:09

      Yeah, he was. It was really interesting. It's like, it's, it's hard for people to realize that other people appreciate them, I think.

   10. LWLaurie Woolever19:16

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:16

       Especially people that are genuinely humble, in a way. Like, he's a, he was a genuinely humble person.

   12. LWLaurie Woolever19:22

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:23

       Like, he really didn't buy into his own bullshit at all.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever19:25

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:26

       So, when you would talk to him about it, he was like, "This could fucking end terribly at any moment," you know?

   16. LWLaurie Woolever19:30

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember being with him in the green room. Uh, he did a book tour for our- the cookbook, Appetites, that we wrote together in 2016, and he did a series of lectures. Basically, like, a one-hour standup routine-

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:44

       Yeah.

   18. LWLaurie Woolever19:45

       ... uh, in these theaters, and then book signing. So, we were at the last one at BAM in Brooklyn and, uh, in the green room, and he was just like, "Oh God, I fucking hate this. I feel like such a..." What was the word he used? "Such a fraud."

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:58

       Yeah.

   20. LWLaurie Woolever19:58

       You know? And I was like, "What are you talking about? You just had like 13 sold-out shows. The book is doing amazing. Like, you're literally Tony Bourdain." He was like, "Yeah, but it's, it's... I just... It's all bullshit. I'm, I'm embarrassed that people have paid money to come and see me talk." You know? It was really illustrative to me to, to hear him talk like that, you know, to realize, like, he doesn't, he doesn't think he's as great as we know he is, you know?

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       That's a common thing-

   22. LWLaurie Woolever20:25

       Hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan20:25

       ... amongst, uh, at least my people.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever20:28

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan20:28

       Amongst comedians.

   26. LWLaurie Woolever20:29

       Mm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:29

       It's, it's, it's... In many, um, successful people, it's called imposter syndrome.

   28. LWLaurie Woolever20:33

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:34

       And it exists because you have a certain, sort of a set perception of who you were, just going through life sort of anonymously, and then it radically changes and it doesn't feel real. And so, to other people who have just discovered you, they love your show, they love your writing, they love your, your, your take on the world as you travel and eat everywhere. You know, you think, like, "I'm the same fucking idiot that I was..." You know, he's, he's probably thinking he's the same guy he was in '95.

   30. LWLaurie Woolever21:02

       Mm-hmm.
9. 25:42 – 31:04

   Food as art and Bourdain’s writerly voice: authenticity over polish

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:42

      And he was the first guy that ever shifted my perception of what food is because I thought of food as just delicious.

   2. LWLaurie Woolever25:49

      Hm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:49

      I was like, "Oh, this food is good."

   4. LWLaurie Woolever25:50

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:50

      And then, I watched his show, and I was like, "Oh, it's art. Oh, you fucking idiot."

   6. LWLaurie Woolever25:55

      Hm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:55

      "How'd you not see that? It's just art that people eat."

   8. LWLaurie Woolever25:58

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:58

      Like, I was like, "Why all these chefs have fucking hand tattoos, and they look like weirdos?"

   10. LWLaurie Woolever26:03

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:03

       And then, I was like, "Oh, they're fucking artists."

   12. LWLaurie Woolever26:06

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:06

       Duh.

   14. LWLaurie Woolever26:06

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:07

       Like, it really took watching that show because I didn't have a lot of interaction with chefs, you know?

   16. LWLaurie Woolever26:13

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:13

       The- well, I maybe knew a couple chefs my whole life. I didn't- I didn't know them well, and I didn't- you know, if I enjoyed their food, I thought it was great. But I didn't-

   18. LWLaurie Woolever26:21

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:21

       ... ever think, "Oh, this is- this is an art form."

   20. LWLaurie Woolever26:24

       Hm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:24

       Like, you are- you're literally getting this- an expression of this person's essence that's laid out in food form in front of you.

   22. LWLaurie Woolever26:32

       Hm, in the best-case scenario.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:34

       Yeah.

   24. LWLaurie Woolever26:34

       I mean, I think there's plenty of food-

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:36

       Of course.

   26. LWLaurie Woolever26:37

       ... that is not that artful, you know, or might be considered more craft than art, but-

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:40

       Sure.

   28. LWLaurie Woolever26:40

       ... yeah, these guys that he loved at the highest level were definitely, you know, artists making consumable product every day.

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:48

       Yeah. And it's just his take on all kinds of things, on- on music and culture. And it- it just made for- you know, if he- maybe- I don't know what- how good of a chef he was, but m- man, he was a fucking amazing host of a television show.

   30. LWLaurie Woolever27:04

       Yeah.
10. 31:04 – 54:47

    Addiction patterns, sobriety, and the romance of excess (including AA)

    1. LWLaurie Woolever31:04

       Yeah. It's, you know, it's really hard to, uh, to say, you know? And I always very, try to be very careful not to diagnose or to ... You know, all we can do is speculate and think about what, you know, we knew when he was around. I mean, he was very upfront about his heroin addiction and his, you know, heavy use of cocaine and crack later, and then he kicked those things. You know? But I think that, you know, as somebody who, who has been sober for a couple of years and is kind of, uh, myself, kind of, you know, dived into the whole exploration of the, of the 12-step thing, I can see now. I can see what it is to be an addict, you know? And I don't think it's, uh, talking out of turn to say that Tony was an addict. He lived his life like an addict, you know? Whether it was drugs or drinking or smoking cigarettes or jujitsu or work or travel or, you know, romantic relationships. I mean, he just, y- you know, just went after more and more and more stimulating experiences in a way that it didn't ever seem there was gonna be enough of whatever it was to fill that, uh, that place. You know? That addicts are trying to fill.

    2. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       When we were get- drinking in Montana, that was one of the things that, uh, was shocking that he wanted to keep going.

    3. LWLaurie Woolever32:16

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JRJoe Rogan32:16

       Like, we were so drunk.

    5. LWLaurie Woolever32:18

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JRJoe Rogan32:18

       We were sitting around this campfire, and we were fucking hammered. And he's like, "Do I ... Where the fucking, where's the whiskey?"

    7. LWLaurie Woolever32:23

       (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan32:23

       "Is there any more whiskey?" And I'm like, "You could really drink more right now? Like, how could you do this? Like, we're blasted."

    9. LWLaurie Woolever32:29

       Yeah. And he wasn't like a b- I mean, he was a tall guy, but he was s- really skinny. It was-

    10. JRJoe Rogan32:34

        Yeah.

    11. LWLaurie Woolever32:34

        ... just sort of like, where are you putting this, dude?

    12. JRJoe Rogan32:36

        (laughs)

    13. LWLaurie Woolever32:36

        Like, this is crazy. You've got no body fat. You know?

    14. JRJoe Rogan32:39

        Especially when he got into jujitsu.

    15. LWLaurie Woolever32:40

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan32:40

        Then he developed a six-pack.

    17. LWLaurie Woolever32:42

        Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan32:42

        But what you saw on him, though, was his face.

    19. LWLaurie Woolever32:46

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JRJoe Rogan32:46

        His face was aging.

    21. LWLaurie Woolever32:48

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JRJoe Rogan32:48

        It was aging rapidly. Just in the time that I knew him, you know? The years that I knew him, from the f- like, I don't know how many years it was. Seven?

    23. LWLaurie Woolever32:58

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan32:58

        Whatever it was. But during that time, he aged a lot.

    25. LWLaurie Woolever33:02

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan33:03

        Like, you could see it on the show in the, the, the last season or two. It's like the lines and his face, he just looked puffy and worn out. It just looked rough.

    27. LWLaurie Woolever33:14

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan33:15

        And that's where it went.

    29. LWLaurie Woolever33:17

        Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, that kind of lifestyle or the, the multiple lifestyles that he had, you know, working as a, as a cook, doing a shitload of drugs, drinking, smoking, you know, a couple packs of cigarettes a day, all of that. You know? Plus, he was (laughs) ... There's some, actually some funny stuff in the book about his addiction to tanning. He was like-

    30. JRJoe Rogan33:35

        (laughs)
11. 54:47 – 1:12:13

    Travel as cultural empathy: Vietnam, Libya, and learning to talk across differences

    1. JRJoe Rogan54:47

       And what's the premise of that book?

    2. LWLaurie Woolever54:49

       So World Travel is basically a- an atlas of the world acor- according to Tony Bourdain. So it's, uh, it's e- every ... It's not every place that he went in the world, 'cause there are just too many of them, but it was all the places that he truly loved, that he wanted to recommend that you go to. So it's a, it's like a little travel guide, but it's got tons of, uh, of his writing in it, you know. So I, I ended up taking a lot of stuff from his television voiceover or stuff that he had written in books or stuff that he had said in interviews, and kind of wove it into this travel book format. I mean, it's not like your typical Fodor's or, you know, whatever the travel books, Lonely Planet, but it, but it has aspects of that. It has a lot of practical information, but it has Tony s- you know, talking about getting the shits in Brazil after eating the Dende oil or, you know, stuff that's very specific to him and his voice.

    3. JRJoe Rogan55:40

       Well, he literally traveled to almost every place you could go to.

    4. LWLaurie Woolever55:46

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan55:47

       I mean, he did shows in Libya, right?

    6. LWLaurie Woolever55:50

       Yeah. Libya, uh-

    7. JRJoe Rogan55:52

       And Libya after Gaddafi's death.

    8. LWLaurie Woolever55:55

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan55:55

       Which was essentially a failed state.

    10. LWLaurie Woolever55:58

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan55:58

        Right? It was a very dangerous place to be.

    12. LWLaurie Woolever56:01

        Yeah. That sounded ... I, I wasn't there, but it sounded like it was among the most dangerous shoots that they did, and there was a lot of, there were a lot of dicey moments, I think, behind the scenes. But it's a beautiful episode, you know? And he really talks about how, "Yeah, this is what you see on the news and CNN and, and, uh, you know, but this is ... Here are some people. Here's, here's some kids playing with a balloon."

    13. JRJoe Rogan56:22

        Yeah.

    14. LWLaurie Woolever56:22

        You know?

    15. JRJoe Rogan56:23

        Yeah.

    16. LWLaurie Woolever56:24

        Um, yeah, he went to 93 countries, and a lot of them more than once.

    17. JRJoe Rogan56:28

        Wow.

    18. LWLaurie Woolever56:28

        And, you know, he traveled extensively around the United States. Um-

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:31

        And not until he was 40, which is really wild.

    20. LWLaurie Woolever56:34

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan56:34

        Right?

    22. LWLaurie Woolever56:34

        Yeah, yeah. He really had traveled very little. When he wrote Kitchen Confidential, he had been to the Caribbean a bunch, and he had been to Tokyo once, and that was kind of it.

    23. JRJoe Rogan56:43

        Crazy.

    24. LWLaurie Woolever56:44

        Yeah, yeah. And he became like the most traveled man in the world.

    25. JRJoe Rogan56:47

        Whenever I would travel somewhere, um, either for comedy or the UFC, I would text him.

    26. LWLaurie Woolever56:52

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan56:52

        "Where do I eat?"

    28. LWLaurie Woolever56:53

        Mm-hmm. And he would, he would tell you about-

    29. JRJoe Rogan56:56

        Ugh. Not just tell you-

    30. LWLaurie Woolever56:57

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:38:17