Joe Rogan Experience #1714 - Josh Dubin & Robert Jones

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Gentlemen. What's up? How are you? Good to see you, man. (laughs)

   3. JDJosh Dubin0:16

      Good to see you, bro.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Always. And Robert, very nice to meet you.

   5. RJRobert Jones0:19

      It's a pleasure as well.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      Pull this sucker up right to your face. It moves around. Yeah, it's very, uh-

   7. RJRobert Jones0:23

      That cool?

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Yeah, keep it ... Try to keep like a fist from your face.

   9. RJRobert Jones0:27

      All right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Um, before we ... Let's just, let's just get into it. Let's explain. Robert, why don't you get started with this? Explain how you came to know Robert and what his, uh, circumstances were?

   11. JDJosh Dubin0:41

       Yeah, um, in 2016, 2016, right?

   12. RJRobert Jones0:48

       Yeah.

   13. JDJosh Dubin0:49

       I was speaking in New Orleans. I was asked to speak at this conference of, like, hundreds of criminal defense attorneys with Barry Scheck, who founded the Innocence Project, and we were teaching a class essentially, um, for the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. And Barry and I were giving a presentation in front of hundreds of lawyers about things that they could do to ensure that during jury selection and at trial that you can expose prosecutorial misconduct, um, how you can make stronger legal pleas to get what we call exculpatory evidence, or evidence that would tend to show someone's innocence. So it was an hour-long speech and Barry and I were, like, going in 15-minute blocks, and at some point, while we're on the stage, and I feel like we're killing it, you know, I'm, like, feeling myself-

   14. RJRobert Jones1:44

       (laughs)

   15. JDJosh Dubin1:44

       ... like they're really loving this stuff. And at some point, on stage, uh, Barry goes to me, "By the way, you know, we just had an exoneration here in New Orleans and this guy might show up." And he ... And I said, "When was the exoneration?" He said, "Just a couple of weeks ago." And I said ... It's kind of a tricky thing to put him in a position to come up and speak in front of hundreds of lawyers and I said, "How long was he in for?" He said, "Almost 24 years. 23 years, 7 months." For a, a v- vicious rape and murder that he didn't commit. So we're wrapping up our speech and all of a sudden, I see this man walk in the room and, like, a lot of heads turn around 'cause it was at, like, a big hotel, um, like, ballroom and all the heads swung around because the door opened real loud (laughs) and slammed.

   16. RJRobert Jones2:40

       (laughs)

   17. JDJosh Dubin2:40

       So everybody is looking at this guy and I see this very well-dressed man and Barry, you know, says, "Oh, and you know, we have a very special treat for you. This man, just a few weeks ago, um, was walked out of Angola, one of the most violent penitentiaries in the country." And I'm ... I feel like, you know, something bad is about to happen because I know what that's like to, um ... At least I don't know what it's like, but I know what it's like to see somebody in the throes of just getting out and they're usually shell-shocked in a way that is not conducive to public speaking. So this guy just strides up on the stage, grabs the mic and gives this, this galvanizing speech where, you know, like you could see the jaws dropping open about how important it is to fight while you're in court and to not back down from judges that aren't letting you, you know, protect your client's constitutional rights. And I'm sitting there watching him and I ... and I'm thinking to myself, this ... I've never seen anything like ... This is special. So Rob- Robert and I met right there on the stage and, uh, we got to talking and then we went across the street to a bar and we had a f- more than a few cocktails and he, he told me his whole story, um, about the crime, about this awful, you know, set of prosecutors and detectives that covered up evidence and lied and were responsible for hi- his incarceration and I've said this to you before, these ... You know, if, if you've never been in the presence of an exoneree, you don't really know, um, you know, really the true strength and, like, the triumph of the human spirit in a way that is very hard to describe. So, you know, 25 minutes in, we're at a very crowded bar in the French Quarter and I'm weeping. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan4:50

       (laughs)

   19. RJRobert Jones4:50

       (laughs)

   20. JDJosh Dubin4:50

       (laughs) He's ... So this woman is sitting at the bar and Robert puts his arm on me, he says like, "It's all right. I'm gonna be all right." And we had, like, one of those conversations where it was like, uh, we just connected in a way that was, um, you know, really extraordinary and then, um, I went on to help represent him in his, his civil rights case and, um ... But that's how we met. I don't want to give away too much of his story 'cause I'd rather him tell it, but that's how we met and then, you know, I have kept in close contact over the last, you know, five years or so and, um, I say this with full confidence that none of it is hyperbole, you're in the presence of a miracle. I mean, this ... What this man was able to endure, overcome, um, and accomplish since he's been out is nothing short of mind-blowing. I mean, he's a, a, a force of nature and it's just, uh, such a, an honor to bring him here.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:54

       How long you been out, Robert?

   22. RJRobert Jones5:56

       Mm. About five years or so.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:00

       ... and has it... What has, what has the transition been like from the first day you're out to, to now? Is it, uh, have you, like, gradually become accustomed to this idea that they're not gonna drag you back in? Have you, have you like... Has, has freedom changed, like the way it feels? Is it like normal now?

   24. RJRobert Jones6:21

       Um, maybe after, after, uh, my charges were dismissed, I was released in 2015. But, uh, maybe two years after that, uh, being threatened for a retry.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       Oh.

   26. RJRobert Jones6:38

       After that was over and the charge was actually dismissed on my 44th birthday-

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:43

       (exhales)

   28. RJRobert Jones6:44

       ... right, (laughs) uh, which a day I'll never forget, uh, I started feeling freedom from there, in a sense, because I wasn't tied to anything no more, in the sense of-

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       You didn't have it hovering.

   30. RJRobert Jones6:57

       Right. So yes, it's has been a transition from the first day I got out until, even till now, a lot of things I'm getting accustomed to, uh, and just the way the world is, right? You know, inside of, inside of prison, um, you live under, uh, a set of rules and guidelines, administratively and as a, a, a prisoner, right? They got their own set of rules, you know. Uh, and, and one of the things is about respect. Respect is huge. And, uh, just having that empathy for other, other people that's in the situation that you are in, right? So (clears throat) immediately when I got out, uh, maybe about the first week I was, I was out, let me tell you one of the transitional phases. Uh, I was with a friend, uh, in the Riverwalk, like near the French Quarter (clears throat) in New Orleans. And me and him were just- was talking and, um, I seen an old lady crossing the streets. Uh, old white lady on a, on one of those canes, like the fold, the, the fold stand canes.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yes. Uh-... how I…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      and you know better. You know better. Willfully holding back innocent people's evidence that would exonerate them. That's insanity. Uh, you know, Robert and I probably have (clears throat) different perspectives on this. I went into this thinking... and when I say this, I mean this work, I went into this thinking these were just a bunch of m- malicious people that, you know, were out to frame young people of color. Um, I don't think that that's always the case. I think subconsciously it's there. I think that they become so focused on winning and believing their own hunches, and that's what happened in Robert's case, um, that they go down a path. And you'll never really know what their motivation is unless you could climb into their mind and they tell you, but I know in Robert's case, because I know the case really well, that they as... they took the w- I mean, I want you to explain it, but they took the word of people that claimed they could identify him. They knew and had v- It's not that they had reason to believe, they knew that someone else committed this crime. Um, and they had an obligation to turn that evidence over to Robert and his attorneys, and they affirmatively didn't. So, you know, what their motivation was is for people to figure out on their own, but, um, it's infuriating, and I think that the only answer, we could talk about this probably later about the reform work that Robert's doing, that we're doing, the only answer is that we need to change laws to make people more accountable as law enforcement officers and prosecutors to make sure that, um, they can't just do this shit with impunity. Well, this should be a crime. It should be a crime of the highest order. If you wanna imprison someone for something that you absolutely know they didn't commit, if you have the evidence that shows that that person's innocent and you withhold that evidence and still prosecute and convict them, that should be a horrific crime. You should never work in the criminal justice system again, and you should lose your freedom. If anything will motivate you, motivate your, your listeners to, to believe what you're saying and to feel the same way, I can think of no other way than to take you through this man's journey. Because even over dinner last night, you know, I, I... you know, I had to, like, turn away and not get emotional because I don't know how he did it, I don't know how these people can have the wher- the, the mental stability and find the wherewithal to not only survive in prison, but to play such a, uh, instrumental role in their own release. Um, he's the smartest lawyer in the room. (laughs) So, you know, why don't you tell Joe about how the... how you even became a suspect, and what some of the initial problems were with the case?

   2. RJRobert Jones18:00

      Yes. Uh-... how I became an initial suspect is they had a, a, well, allegedly, they had a, a false, uh, tip. It was a false tip that led, uh, the police, uh, to arrest me, uh, for these particular crimes, saying that they knew that I was involved in these crimes or what have you. Um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:25

      Who gave them the false tip?

   4. RJRobert Jones18:27

      Uh, it was anonymous.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:30

      Anonymous. Was it someone that had a grudge against you, do you think? Was it, was it someone that was trying to throw themselves off the case?

   6. RJRobert Jones18:38

      I really don't know that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:39

      You don't know?

   8. RJRobert Jones18:40

      I really don't know.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:41

      Okay.

   10. RJRobert Jones18:41

       Uh, I don't know how that happened. They, um-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:43

       (clears throat) But someone ...

   12. RJRobert Jones18:46

       Uh- Someone actually did it, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan18:47

       Yeah.

   14. RJRobert Jones18:47

       And that's just how easy someone life can get thrown away. It goes to show you how things, uh, can take a different turn. Um, so, you know, and, and a lot of these things, it didn't ... And, and one way you look at it, a lot of times that, uh, I mean, growing up in distressed neighborhoods and growing up in poor neighborhoods, you're young, you're Black, uh, uh, a crime happened to a, a tourist, a white tourist, uh, the, uh, a lot of people is looking at the city 'cause tourist- tourism. As I learned, I didn't know these things now, but as I learned while I was incarcerated, you know, tourism is a big attraction for the city of New Orleans. There was a British tourist and a lot of news coverage nationally. Like, this shit got to get done. Somebody gotta go to jail for this.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       Right.

   16. RJRobert Jones19:39

       Right? This ... Something have to happen. And so, you know, when you take all those things into a- account, and somebody allegedly called and said that I had something to do with the crime, I get arrested. Uh, I mean, when I got arrested, as I said, you know, I grew up, uh ... And I, and I, and I can go off into this. You know, I, I grew up in the, in, in poor neighborhoods, in poor environments. Uh, uh, I come from a single parent household. I was a, the elder of, of, of five other siblings, which is one is deceased now. Uh, because I, I essentially became a product of my environment, um, in the sense of maybe, you know, selling drugs and doing things that normal teens do in those kind of environments. Um, eventually I, I dropped out of school, um, and maybe a few years after that, I end up getting arrested for these crimes, right? So when I went to prison, went to the jail first and then eventually going to prison, only thing I was equipped with, with a lot of courage, street common sense, and that's it. That's it. Uh, I mean, I can read to the extent to get myself by, but I wasn't an excellent reader, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:59

       Right.

   18. RJRobert Jones21:01

       Uh, I just had a lot of common sense and a lot of courage. So, uh, I mean, going through that process was, was, was, was horrible. It was horrific, and it, and, uh ... (laughs) It was, it wa- it was really horrific in a sense, because in more terms of I went through that system, and I tell folks all the time, it's like, uh, standing before a system and they speak in a whole nother language to me.

   19. JRJoe Rogan21:31

       Hmm. Legalese.

   20. RJRobert Jones21:34

       Jargon.

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:34

       Yeah.

   22. RJRobert Jones21:34

       The legal jargon-

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:35

       Yeah.

   24. RJRobert Jones21:35

       ... and terminologies that totally didn't understand. Didn't understand that world, period, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:40

       Mm-hmm.

   26. RJRobert Jones21:41

       So going from that and being in the, in the parish prison, have to use, uh, my courage and my strength from growing up in poor environments to survive inside this institution, uh, a jail, uh, was, was horrific, I mean, I-

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:59

       But you still have hope that they were gonna figure out that you were innocent because you were innocent.

   28. RJRobert Jones22:04

       Right. I, I s- I still had a lot of hope because I didn't know an- As I said, innocent people wasn't, until my knowledge, until the world knowledge, uh, in 1992, it wasn't real nothing prevalent that innocent people getting caught, I mean, uh, get found guilty, right?

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:21

       Right.

   30. RJRobert Jones22:22

       So m- I still had like a smidgen of hope even in the parish, like, they're gonna eventually get this shit right. Or if I go to trial, nobody gonna find me guilty because I know I'm innocent. Just living off this, holding onto that, right? But as the time went on, me being in the parish, I started seeing guys that was getting convicted and they actually were saying that they was innocent. I'm like, "He lying-"
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. RJRobert Jones30:01

      all right? And so after my father was killed, like, for maybe a couple years after, his trainers, they wanted to, like, "Man, your daddy was so good, we wanna keep this bloodline going. Like, you got to go and try to be a boxer." So they kinda like ushered me-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RJRobert Jones30:15

      ... in that mood, and I started training, I started understanding dynamics and the concept of, of the basics of boxing. Uh-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:22

      How old were you?

   5. RJRobert Jones30:24

      ... how, how old I was during that time.

   6. NANarrator30:25

      When, when they started training you?

   7. RJRobert Jones30:27

      Maybe eight. Eight until maybe about 11 or 12, somethin' to that, in that bracket. It was a couple of years I stayed, and going back and forward, um-

   8. NANarrator30:38

      Was this something you wanted to do? Or was this something that you felt like they were just trying to push you into doing it?

   9. RJRobert Jones30:43

      I think they was pushing me to it.

   10. NANarrator30:44

       Mm-hmm.

   11. RJRobert Jones30:44

       It's not that I actually didn't want to do it, but that's why I stopped doing it, right?

   12. NANarrator30:48

       Right.

   13. RJRobert Jones30:49

       Eventually I stopped doing it and did something else. Uh, but, so me and this guy who I, I, I'm, I'm speaking of, had this kinda relationship as it relates to... 'Cause he was a boxing trainer inside the institution. And me and him used to have a discussion about certain things, about how you train guys. It's like, you know, if you train a guy to be, uh, uh, aggressive in a sense, don't hit him too much with the meat gloves 'cause you're gonna make him a defensive, you know?

   14. NANarrator31:18

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RJRobert Jones31:18

       And that kind of... Just different little things like that, right? So we'd have these kind of discussions. And so he was the one that kinda came to my aid when, uh, I was going through the dramatic, uh, process with my brother being, you know, uh, killed. Right? Uh, I was walking the yard, I was crying one day and he just walked up to me like, "Man, what's going on?" I'm like, "Man, I don't really want to talk about it." You know? I'm like, "Man, just give me my space." He was like, "Man, no, man, you my friend. I won't... I'm gonna help you." He said, "Let me tell you this, and you might understand this." He said that life is like boxing, right? He said, "Every time life throw a punch at you, you gotta throw a counter punch." And he said, "If you don't throw a counter punch, life will just knock you out just like you get knocked out in the ring." And I'm like, it ain't dawn on me when he told me. When I went back to my cell, I'm like, "You know what? This guy fucking right." You know? I got to fight back. I can't just, you know, uh, just sit back and continue on to blame the system, oh, dude, the system is at fault, and blame other people for what they ain't doing. I got to fight. And that conversation sparked something in me and actually changed my life. So from there, I enrolled myself in a litera- uh, uh, uh, a literacy program inside the institution. Uh, and it's funny now when I think about it because they started me out in the third grade. I dropped out in the eighth grade, but they started me out in the third grade in a literacy program, in which I excelled, uh, those programs ex- extremely fast because I'm like, "What the hell? Third grade?" But I was glad I had to take that route, right? 'Cause I wanted to relearn all those things and freshen myself up. And eventually I got that to GED school, uh, and at the same time, I was studying the law, right? 'Cause I knew, I said, man, my brother was, was gone. He technically was my only financial resource that I had or e- a chance that I ever had was of getting an attorney. My family couldn't afford it, right? So that w- led him to what he was doing to try to help me. So I was like, "I gotta do this shit myself." Ain't no way I'm gonna get experience in the law if I don't know how to ... if I don't have no academical skills, right? So I gotta master this shit. And it came back to these different things. I'm like, "All these guys have been here all this time, they were uneducated, that mean I gotta get educated. Uh, they didn't know the law, that mean I gotta master this shit." Right? And they didn't have no resources, I gotta get resources. So that's, that's all I ever focused on. So inside the institution, after, you know, I studied the law for, for, for years and I went in from the Constitution all the way up to, uh, man, I s- I studied everything about the law to the, to the point is I started taking corresponding courses in various aspects of laws, um, different branches, criminal, civil, uh, uh, and I started studying politics. Started studying all this stuff. And one of the things, reason why I didn't want to be the smartest person inside there and go to prison, but I didn't want to be that same 19-year-old kid that stood before the courtroom that didn't understand shit that was going on in front of me. Right? And I wanted to be, I wanted to be educated enough to help myself get out of prison and stay out of prison, and change the system. So that's, that, that was brought on that, that level of education. Um, that... So, so, so for many years, um, and one of the things how I maintained a lot of my resources I get, got a lot of resources is, a lot of people used to spend a lot of their money in the commissary, um, in which I used to spend money in the commissary as well, but a lot of my money I used to sacrifice. I told you I'm a very, uh, strategic person. I used to invest in 100 stamps a month and I saved the five... And I think stamp was maybe 25 cents, 20 s- 29 cents during the time. So it's more than... It was less than $30 a month, right? For the, for the g- for the, get me 100 stamps. So if I c- I said, "If I can write 100 people in a month and if three people respond from the 100 people I wrote and bring me help, that's a, that's a $30 investment, right? For me to actually-

   16. NANarrator36:15

       Mm-hmm.

   17. RJRobert Jones36:15

       ... get the help that I need and, uh, to get my freedom."

   18. NANarrator36:19

       And who were you writing to?

   19. RJRobert Jones36:20

       Everybody. I wrote the President of the United States, I wrote the federal government, I wrote everybody. Then I started talking, over the period of years, I started talking to certain people, investigators, lawyers, uh...... uh ... Then when I started hearing about the Innocence Projects that were surfacing around the country, uh, I started writing them and eventually, uh, it worked out. All right? Uh, but prior to those folks coming on and bringing, uh, the resources to help me, I was litigating my own cases. I was litigating cases for other guys inside the institution. Uh, I had got so good at- at- at litigating to the extent I was winning cases in the- the highest state court, the circuit courts. I was getting guys, like, hearings. Uh, I had an impeccable prison record as far as rehabilitating myself. I completed all the cell fell programs. I was in charge of- of three of the organizations there that was creating programs for guys. I mean, uh, there was a whole lot of things I was doing. I- I- I done had, like, rule infractions for, like, expand from, like, 10 to 15 years, and which is- is- is- is hard to do.

   20. JDJosh Dubin37:39

       What do you mean by that? Rule infractions 10 to 15 years?

   21. RJRobert Jones37:41

       For getting a write-up.

   22. JDJosh Dubin37:43

       What does that-

   23. RJRobert Jones37:43

       Like-

   24. JDJosh Dubin37:43

       What do you mean?

   25. RJRobert Jones37:44

       Inside when you're in prison, it's like, a rule infraction is, like, they got a set of rules, really strict rules.

   26. JDJosh Dubin37:50

       Mm-hmm.

   27. RJRobert Jones37:50

       And if you violate in any kind of way, they call that a write-up or a rule infraction.

   28. JDJosh Dubin37:56

       Okay.

   29. RJRobert Jones37:57

       And it's hard to get that inside the institution, not to ... I mean, not to get write-ups, right?

   30. JDJosh Dubin38:02

       Right.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   You were too much…

   1. RJRobert Jones45:00

      in other words like, if me and you exchange words, and I'm just, I'm give you a prime example, like fuck you. My fuck you is a, is a, is a physical confrontation. Your fuck you is a verbal, mine a physical confrontation. I'm always go higher than your ignorance, right? And me having that mindset, I protected myself to the extent of a lot of bullshit stayed arou- from around me. Not that guys fear me, but it's like if you cross-

   2. NANarrator45:28

      You were too much danger.

   3. RJRobert Jones45:30

      Yeah. If you, if you cross-

   4. NANarrator45:31

      You weren't worth fucking with.

   5. RJRobert Jones45:31

      Yeah. If you cross his path, he gone, he gone bring you the best.

   6. NANarrator45:36

      He, he told me about he's, the s- the second day he was in the parish jail, um ...

   7. RJRobert Jones45:43

      Yep. (laughs)

   8. NANarrator45:44

      Well, you tell it. (laughs) . Because I said how quickly did you have to establish that?

   9. RJRobert Jones45:49

      No, well, the-

   10. NANarrator45:50

       You don't have to tell all the gritty details.

   11. RJRobert Jones45:52

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, oh, this-

   12. NANarrator45:55

       Or, or you can. (laughs)

   13. RJRobert Jones45:55

       This being in, uh, this ... You know, the second day just being in and arrested for this crimes and, uh, charges, uh, I had to ... I went in a situation of like, okay, I'm a be here so I had to kinda like see how things was moving around. So it was a situation where the s- the stronger, stronger guys would get more food and the weaker guys would kinda get lesser food. And there's certain things that was happening, right? Uh, stronger guys eat first and the weaker guys eat last. And I'm like, "I ain't either one of these kind of guys, so I'm a get my shit straight now." You know, so incident occur, uh, I was able to, uh, manage to take care of my business in the sense of challenging one of the guys. Uh, and eventually it, it, it got to a level where guys had respected me from doing that 'cause I was a newcomer that was coming into there and I took it upon myself to actually challenge these guys and confront one of these guys and dominated the, the situation to the extent where everybody started giving me a level of respect, you know, to the extent like, "He's a newcomer but he ain't nothing to ..." So I kinda like mimicked that same role or concept when I got to Angola to establish myself first. And like I said, it, it occurred over the period of years, over the period of years, but eventually the shit just like starts smoothing out, you know. Even though it's still happening around me, all around me. Guys were getting killed, um, I done, I done seen a lot of that stuff. You know, guys, uh ... You know, it's, it was horrible, you know. But I just was there or not there 'cause I was focused, man. I was trying to get out of prison. I know I ain't belong in there for number one, uh, and I know what I had to do in order for to put myself in the position to win.

   14. NANarrator48:06

       How difficult was it to stay on track? You're in there for 24 years for something that you didn't do. Like, was it, was it hard not to lose hope?

   15. RJRobert Jones48:18

       Yeah. It's ... I wasn't ... You ... It, it, it always a ... And, and, and people can tell you this, is as much as strong as, strong as, as people say I am and other peoples are, uh, that's, that, that come from wrongful conviction inside an institution.And I think that's, like, one of the most two feared things that they say, and I can... I, I, I will agree with it, that scientists and other people say that man has two worstest fears, of dying and being terminally ill, right? That's, that's, that's two hill.

   16. JDJosh Dubin48:57

       Yeah.

   17. RJRobert Jones48:58

       Yeah. So me having all the hope and saying, "Man, I'm gonna get outta here. I'm gonna get outta here." Didn't really know how, how that was gonna happen, but it's a... it's a, it's a level of faith that you gotta hold onto, right? And... but somewhere in your back, in your mind because you, you constantly seeing it every day and... a- and in Angola guys been announced, uh, incarcerated for so long that they die almost every day. A lot of people don't know that. People die in that institution every day and you seeing this shit.

   18. JDJosh Dubin49:31

       They're dying of old age, they're dying from-

   19. RJRobert Jones49:33

       Old, old-

   20. JDJosh Dubin49:33

       ... murder.

   21. RJRobert Jones49:33

       Old age.

   22. JDJosh Dubin49:34

       Old age?

   23. RJRobert Jones49:35

       Old age. You know, they been there for so long, they just-

   24. JDJosh Dubin49:37

       How, how many people are in Angola locked up?

   25. RJRobert Jones49:40

       Uh, (sighs) more than 5,000, right?

   26. JDJosh Dubin49:43

       They have their own TV station.

   27. RJRobert Jones49:45

       Radio station and-

   28. JDJosh Dubin49:47

       Magazine.

   29. RJRobert Jones49:47

       Yeah.

   30. JDJosh Dubin49:48

       It's like a world. And you know, what, what's, um... what's hard to f- you know, and, and the reason why that I think that this is so important is because you have to transport yourself and allow yourself to go, you know, he sh- he gave the story short shrift. What happens is, the second day he's in there, you know, the guys that are there for a, a long time, they call them the New Jack, and they... he was first in line. He got out of his cell first, and he's ready to go get food. And he said he saw on the first day that what happened is they come out with loaves of bread. The guys that have been there for the longest-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   ... but I just…

   1. JDJosh Dubin1:00:00

      to say that this is an anomaly and that this only happened in Robert's case. It happens in, in way too many cases that I've handled and that the Innocence Project handles and the criminal justice reform organizations handle all over the country. So a lot of what we... of what I get, um, as a result of speaking out is, "How can I help?" One of the ways you can help is... You know, your voice matters when you are el- voting for elected officials. Your voice matters when you are writing a letter to a governor. Your voice matters if you show up at a town hall meeting. It really does all matter, and we have to keep on pounding the, the, um... beating the drum to make sure that fundamental rights like this, uh, laws to protect these rights are enacted.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

      ... but I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before-

   3. RJRobert Jones1:00:49

      Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

      ... I lost the thought. But-

   5. RJRobert Jones1:00:50

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

      ... because by the time the New Orle-

   7. RJRobert Jones1:00:52

      That's important.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

      ... the Innocence Project of New Orleans comes along, and eventually, um, Barry Scheck and, and my dear friend, Nina Morrison, who are ... you know who Barry is, but Nina's, uh, um, one of the, the leaders at the Innocence Project in New York. Um, she just got, you know, put forth as a potential federal judge pick. She'd be an amazing choice. Um, really started to take his case on and expose all of this evidence that was hidden. But prior to that, he was, you know, a one-legged man in a shit-kicking contest, to say the least.

   9. RJRobert Jones1:01:27

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:27

       I mean, he's fighting this all on his own. But go-

   11. RJRobert Jones1:01:29

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       ... go ahead. I don't wanna-

   13. RJRobert Jones1:01:31

       Yeah. And, well, not only did a lot of my pleadings, uh, was about preserving the evidence, it was, it was also about all the withheld evidence and all the things that actually pointed to my innocence. So this one pleading ... It was multiple pleadings that were file- that I was filing throughout the ... like I s- the span of time. So as I said, these 16 denials came over the course of, uh, the 23 years and seven months. And trust me, each one of them denials felt like a guilty verdict all over again. Every one of them, right? But, but eventually they became numb to like ... (laughs) This shit is a- is all the same, right? Like one denial feel like the same, you know. Even though it hurt because you, you been to build yourself up to the extent like, "All right, I'm doing all this amazing shit and reeducated myself. I'm doing all this great shit, but what the hell? I'm still not out of prison." And so when the Innocence Project of New Orleans was able to bring all the resources, we still was getting denials. Still getting with denial. I'm like, "Goddamn, I got the facts, I got the law on my side, like what the hell?" You know? And, you know, you, you hold onto the hope, uh, but, you know, it's always in the back of your mind that go- you get back to this peace, it's always in the back of your mind like, "Man, it's a possibility I might die here." Right? And something that you dread y- you know, that's one of the worstest thing, uh, for any person incarcerated, but especially like when you're innocent. Like, there's a reasonable probability that I might die here.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:03:17

       How many guys do you think you met in jail that were innocent that were probably gonna die there?

   15. RJRobert Jones1:03:25

       Uh, I met a lot of innocent guys, uh, in there, but I also met a lot of guys who actually died, right? 'Cause like o- and, and, and some instance when I was in prison, um, I used to work for this, for this hospice program, right? We deal with a lot of the, um, the elderly, uh, the, the, the terminally ill, uh, uh, prisoners over there on the hospital ward, in the hospital ward, right? You go to ... you go over there and you care for 'em and you do these things for these guys. And a lot of those guys who right before they die, like, you know, 'cause I shared my story and let 'em know I was innocent, you know? And they like, uh, they was in their right mind, it's like, "Robert, I'm, I'm innocent, man. I'm innocent." And I'm like ... Not all of 'em, but I, I did- I did- I done had that conversation with, with a lot of 'em. And I'm like, "Okay, uh, you got no reason to lie, you about to die." Right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:04:28

       Yeah.

   17. RJRobert Jones1:04:29

       There's no reason for him to lie, right? As- as- as nothing that could happen. And so I, I, I believed them, right? So and it ... and that was a ... it was quite a few of 'em that, that came into the junction, uh, of, of expressing that they were innocent.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:04:46

       I'm glad you're wearing that T-shirt. Um, the, the death penalty kills innocent people because, um, I think there's a lot of people that have this sort of hard-nosed idea that the death penalty is a good thing because, uh, it kills people who do bad things. And it's very simplistic. But the problem with that is that the legal system is very, very, very flawed. Very flawed. So this idea that the d- the d- the death penalty kills innocent people is, is a very important idea. And i- it ... People need to understand that for your ... in your, your case, your situation, it's not unusual. This, this story that you're telling, it's unique and it's, it's amazing that you went through it and that you, you figured out a way to educate yourself and to get yourself out, but there's n- you're not an unusual case in that. There's a lot of innocent people that get locked up.

   19. RJRobert Jones1:05:41

       That's right.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:05:42

       Look at the back of my shirt.

   21. RJRobert Jones1:05:43

       (clears throat)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:05:45

       Those are all innocent people who were killed? Those are all, those are all innocent people that were convicted and sentenced to death and have since been exonerated.

   23. RJRobert Jones1:05:57

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:05:57

       So Clemente Aguirre's on the back of this shirt, you've heard his story-

   25. RJRobert Jones1:06:01

       Yes.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:06:01

       ... before. And, um, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit later about some cases of people that are still on ... that are still on death row right now, um, that there are strong, strong cases for innocence for them. And, you know, you touched on something really important, which is that (clears throat) when you hear about a horrific crime, I think it's human nature-

   27. RJRobert Jones1:06:25

       I for one. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:06:26

       Yeah, yeah. And there's this really fascinating thing that happens during the death penalty case. The first phase of jury selection is called death qualification. It's a, um, a pretty shitty name for it. And it's this phase where you, um, are there to gauge people's feelings about the death penalty.

   29. JDJosh Dubin1:06:50

       And having gone through jury selection in death penalty cases, it's, it's a, it's rather fascinating sort of human experiment if you think about it, because what the Supreme Court, um, of the United States, not of any particular state has said is that if a state is gonna put someone to death, you have to have this process by which you cannot have people on the jury, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but you cannot have people on the jury that feel that if somebody is convicted of a capital case and a capital crime that you will automatically vote for the death penalty. And you also can't have people on the jury that are so against the death penalty that they'll never vote for it. Now, during this process of gauging people's, um, feelings about the death penalty, you get to have a conversation with them, and you can see the, the conflict, the emotional tumult in their words, in their body language, um, in wrestling with, well, if somebody would, you know, murder a child or, you know, they deserve to die, but then you also, you know, s- see, but how, but unless I know 100% they did it, I don't know if it makes sense to hold the- and you see this wrestling, this existential wrestling going on. Then there are some people that come in and say, "That's right. I'm definitely voting for death, um, if, if I think they did it." Um, and, you know, it's fraught with so many problems because of the finality of it, right? And, you know, people have different philosophical beliefs, but if you knew the sheer number of people that, you know, Florida leads the nation in death row exonerations.

   30. RJRobert Jones1:08:49

       Mm-hmm.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:30:00

   But how did he…

   1. JDJosh Dubin1:15:00

      a guy that had been accused and tied to these murders who was looking to put it on someone else.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:05

      But how did he put it on you though?

   3. JDJosh Dubin1:15:07

      He found out that there was a tip.

   4. RJRobert Jones1:15:10

      Right.

   5. JDJosh Dubin1:15:10

      Implicating him.

   6. RJRobert Jones1:15:11

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:15:12

      Mm.

   8. RJRobert Jones1:15:12

      Right. Absolutely. And-

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

      And so he tried to be a snitch to get the heat off of him-

   10. RJRobert Jones1:15:18

       Absolutely.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:18

       ... and put it on you.

   12. RJRobert Jones1:15:19

       Absolutely.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:15:19

       (inhales deeply) And they let that happen?

   14. RJRobert Jones1:15:22

       Yep.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15:22

       Even though they knew?

   16. RJRobert Jones1:15:23

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:15:24

       (sighs)

   18. RJRobert Jones1:15:24

       And, and it goes deeper this- than that. Uh, af- so after I get convicted, uh... I'm still charged with the, with, with, with the murder of the British tourist, right? I'm still, I'm still actually charged with it even though I haven't been going back and forth to court with it at this time. After I get convicted, and I know I was gonna get a life sentence for the rape, uh, the kidnapping and three armed robberies, uh... So the district attorney, uh, made a offer to my defense attorney, um, and eventually brought it to me on the day of my sentencing, said that, "Okay, uh, we can give him 25 years, or 21 years for the murder, get him a manslaughter," right? And I don't know what type of stuff that happens out of my presence between my attorney and the district attorney, but I was scared as shit. I just received a life sentence, uh, I know I was about to be sentenced to life for the, the rape, and 25 or whatever, maybe 99 years for every armed robbery. I don't know, I was scared as shit. So I took the 21-year plea, but I never admitted to anything, right? And a part of the evidence was that the guy, uh, who we, we, we talking about that, that was, is initially trying to involve me, he was found guilty of the murder already. He was already found guilty of the murder.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:58

       So they were trying you for a crime they already had convicted someone for.

   20. RJRobert Jones1:17:03

       Absolutely.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:17:03

       How, how is that possible?

   22. RJRobert Jones1:17:05

       It happened.

   23. JDJosh Dubin1:17:06

       Because that, what they were trying to say is that if two people are in a car and you're both out committing crimes, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:17:13

       You're both responsible.

   25. JDJosh Dubin1:17:14

       You're both responsible. There's something called the felony murder rule. And the felony murder rule is that if you're in the commission of a crime and somebody dies, so if you and I went and robbed a bank, and I go in and start, you know, shooting up at the tellers and kill two tellers, you're responsible for the murder also. So the theory of Robert's prosecution was that they were friends, they were on this crime spree together, and that even though he was convicted of the murder, um, you know, he was still responsible and guilty of murder. It's no different than the James Daly case which I've talked about before. They convicted one guy, Jack Piercey, and then they tried my client after that. One guy got sentenced to life, one guy got sentenced to death.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:18:00

       It's crazy they don't have to have any evidence whatsoever that you're even friends with that guy.

   27. RJRobert Jones1:18:04

       Right, right. And-

   28. JDJosh Dubin1:18:05

       They had his word.

   29. RJRobert Jones1:18:06

       Right.

   30. JDJosh Dubin1:18:06

       Isn't his word enough?
7. 1:30:00 – 1:30:50

   Section 7

   1. JDJosh Dubin1:30:00

      and realizes how many mistakes are made. So oftentimes it takes them sort of coming to the other side, having interaction with someone like Robert and seeing the empathy, because what he's been able to accomplish in the five short years since he's been out and reforming the system is nothing short of remarkable. To me, it's both a happy ending and it's, it's, you know, terribly depressing because look what they, look what they wasted on taking him through this. And we were talking about on the way over here whether or not he ever would have become the force that he's become in, in criminal justice reform if this all didn't happen to him, so maybe that's the silver lining. Easy for me to say because I wasn't the one, you know, toiling in a, in a terrible f- penitentiary for 23 plus years.

Episode duration: 2:05:53