Joe Rogan Experience #1714 - Josh Dubin & Robert Jones

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Gentlemen. What's up? How are you? Good to see you, man. (laughs)

Josh Dubin 0:16 Good to see you, bro.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Always. And Robert, very nice to meet you.

Robert Jones 0:19 It's a pleasure as well.

Joe Rogan 0:20 Pull this sucker up right to your face. It moves around. Yeah, it's very, uh-

Robert Jones 0:23 That cool?

Joe Rogan 0:24 Yeah, keep it ... Try to keep like a fist from your face.

Robert Jones 0:27 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:27 Um, before we ... Let's just, let's just get into it. Let's explain. Robert, why don't you get started with this? Explain how you came to know Robert and what his, uh, circumstances were?

Josh Dubin 0:41 Yeah, um, in 2016, 2016, right?

Robert Jones 0:48 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 0:49 I was speaking in New Orleans. I was asked to speak at this conference of, like, hundreds of criminal defense attorneys with Barry Scheck, who founded the Innocence Project, and we were teaching a class essentially, um, for the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. And Barry and I were giving a presentation in front of hundreds of lawyers about things that they could do to ensure that during jury selection and at trial that you can expose prosecutorial misconduct, um, how you can make stronger legal pleas to get what we call exculpatory evidence, or evidence that would tend to show someone's innocence. So it was an hour-long speech and Barry and I were, like, going in 15-minute blocks, and at some point, while we're on the stage, and I feel like we're killing it, you know, I'm, like, feeling myself-

Robert Jones 1:44 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 1:44 ... like they're really loving this stuff. And at some point, on stage, uh, Barry goes to me, "By the way, you know, we just had an exoneration here in New Orleans and this guy might show up." And he ... And I said, "When was the exoneration?" He said, "Just a couple of weeks ago." And I said ... It's kind of a tricky thing to put him in a position to come up and speak in front of hundreds of lawyers and I said, "How long was he in for?" He said, "Almost 24 years. 23 years, 7 months." For a, a v- vicious rape and murder that he didn't commit. So we're wrapping up our speech and all of a sudden, I see this man walk in the room and, like, a lot of heads turn around 'cause it was at, like, a big hotel, um, like, ballroom and all the heads swung around because the door opened real loud (laughs) and slammed.

Robert Jones 2:40 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 2:40 So everybody is looking at this guy and I see this very well-dressed man and Barry, you know, says, "Oh, and you know, we have a very special treat for you. This man, just a few weeks ago, um, was walked out of Angola, one of the most violent penitentiaries in the country." And I'm ... I feel like, you know, something bad is about to happen because I know what that's like to, um ... At least I don't know what it's like, but I know what it's like to see somebody in the throes of just getting out and they're usually shell-shocked in a way that is not conducive to public speaking. So this guy just strides up on the stage, grabs the mic and gives this, this galvanizing speech where, you know, like you could see the jaws dropping open about how important it is to fight while you're in court and to not back down from judges that aren't letting you, you know, protect your client's constitutional rights. And I'm sitting there watching him and I ... and I'm thinking to myself, this ... I've never seen anything like ... This is special. So Rob- Robert and I met right there on the stage and, uh, we got to talking and then we went across the street to a bar and we had a f- more than a few cocktails and he, he told me his whole story, um, about the crime, about this awful, you know, set of prosecutors and detectives that covered up evidence and lied and were responsible for hi- his incarceration and I've said this to you before, these ... You know, if, if you've never been in the presence of an exoneree, you don't really know, um, you know, really the true strength and, like, the triumph of the human spirit in a way that is very hard to describe. So, you know, 25 minutes in, we're at a very crowded bar in the French Quarter and I'm weeping. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:50 (laughs)

Robert Jones 4:50 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 4:50 (laughs) He's ... So this woman is sitting at the bar and Robert puts his arm on me, he says like, "It's all right. I'm gonna be all right." And we had, like, one of those conversations where it was like, uh, we just connected in a way that was, um, you know, really extraordinary and then, um, I went on to help represent him in his, his civil rights case and, um ... But that's how we met. I don't want to give away too much of his story 'cause I'd rather him tell it, but that's how we met and then, you know, I have kept in close contact over the last, you know, five years or so and, um, I say this with full confidence that none of it is hyperbole, you're in the presence of a miracle. I mean, this ... What this man was able to endure, overcome, um, and accomplish since he's been out is nothing short of mind-blowing. I mean, he's a, a, a force of nature and it's just, uh, such a, an honor to bring him here.

Joe Rogan 5:54 How long you been out, Robert?

Robert Jones 5:56 Mm. About five years or so.

Joe Rogan 6:00 ... and has it... What has, what has the transition been like from the first day you're out to, to now? Is it, uh, have you, like, gradually become accustomed to this idea that they're not gonna drag you back in? Have you, have you like... Has, has freedom changed, like the way it feels? Is it like normal now?

Robert Jones 6:21 Um, maybe after, after, uh, my charges were dismissed, I was released in 2015. But, uh, maybe two years after that, uh, being threatened for a retry.

Joe Rogan 6:37 Oh.

Robert Jones 6:38 After that was over and the charge was actually dismissed on my 44th birthday-

Joe Rogan 6:43 (exhales)

Robert Jones 6:44 ... right, (laughs) uh, which a day I'll never forget, uh, I started feeling freedom from there, in a sense, because I wasn't tied to anything no more, in the sense of-

Joe Rogan 6:56 You didn't have it hovering.

Robert Jones 6:57 Right. So yes, it's has been a transition from the first day I got out until, even till now, a lot of things I'm getting accustomed to, uh, and just the way the world is, right? You know, inside of, inside of prison, um, you live under, uh, a set of rules and guidelines, administratively and as a, a, a prisoner, right? They got their own set of rules, you know. Uh, and, and one of the things is about respect. Respect is huge. And, uh, just having that empathy for other, other people that's in the situation that you are in, right? So (clears throat) immediately when I got out, uh, maybe about the first week I was, I was out, let me tell you one of the transitional phases. Uh, I was with a friend, uh, in the Riverwalk, like near the French Quarter (clears throat) in New Orleans. And me and him were just- was talking and, um, I seen an old lady crossing the streets. Uh, old white lady on a, on one of those canes, like the fold, the, the fold stand canes.

Joe Rogan 8:09 Yeah.

Robert Jones 8:10 And, and-

Joe Rogan 8:10 Like a walker.

Robert Jones 8:11 Yeah, like a walker, right?

Joe Rogan 8:12 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 8:13 And it's like, she's crossing the streets, but there's cars kind of like moving kind of fast and a lot of traffic, you know, and people blowing horns and different things of that nature. Uh, and I'm like looking at everybody like, "Ain't nobody gonna help this old lady?" Like, she f- she might get hit, you know. A car might hit her, right? So I'm talking to my friend, but I'm constantly paying attention to what's going on, right, paying attention to my surroundings. So I said, "Man, what the hell." I went and helped her, made sure that she crossed the street safely. And when I got back to the other side, people were like clapping and patting me on my back. I'm like, "This is a fucked up world."

Joe Rogan 8:50 (laughs)

Robert Jones 8:51 Right? Like, (laughs) you giving me accolades...

Joe Rogan 8:54 For doing a normal human thing.

Robert Jones 8:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:56 Yeah-

Robert Jones 8:57 So I knew-

Joe Rogan 8:57 ... that you're supposed to do.

Robert Jones 8:58 E- yeah, absolutely. So I knew that I, I was in for a hell of a transition, uh, just to, to see that people didn't have, uh, respect for one another. I mean, just passing my people and just saying excuse me, right? Open the door for women and older people and children, shit like that, like, you know.

Joe Rogan 9:16 So are you saying that there's more of that in prison?

Robert Jones 9:19 Well, in, in prison it's just like you... It's, it's a lot of respect. I mean, because when you don't respect nobody, I mean, there's consequences for it, right?

Joe Rogan 9:29 Right.

Robert Jones 9:29 Maybe not those particular instance, but just that level and that mindset of having that level of respect-

Joe Rogan 9:36 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 9:36 ... you know. Uh, if you're in your own space, a guard not going to invade your space, and if he invade your space, that's consequences for that, right? So just having that level of respect. So when I, you know, what I'm saying is, coming into society there and making that transition was, it was difficult in that aspect, amongst a lot of other things.

Joe Rogan 9:57 So you were 20 years old when they arrested you?

Robert Jones 10:03 19.

Joe Rogan 10:03 19. And could, could you explain the, the circumstances, like what happened and how you found out about it?

Robert Jones 10:12 How I found out about?

Joe Rogan 10:13 How you found out you were being accused of something that you didn't do.

Robert Jones 10:17 Uh, well, actually, they, uh, they came to my mom's house, uh, knocking on the door, banging on the door. Um, the police raided the house, uh, pulled out guns and saying they was looking for, uh, me for some crimes. Um, and I was like... I mean, knowing I didn't commit no crimes, right? So like- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:42 You would- you had never been in trouble before that? Little shit?

Robert Jones 10:46 Uh, just normal things that people growing up in poverty get in trouble for, you know.

Joe Rogan 10:51 Right.

Robert Jones 10:51 Uh, uh, selling drugs and just being-

Joe Rogan 10:54 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 10:55 ... basically being a, uh, a product of your environment and the things that you see and participate in. But not no shit like they was trying to, um, say I was, uh, involved in, like murder, uh, robberies, rape. I'm like, "What the hell?" And so then I was thinking in more terms of, of, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna go to the station, like..." But, and I, and I told my, my mom. I can still remem- remember this. Uh, I said, "I'll be back. I'll be right back," 'cause I know I didn't do shit, right?

Joe Rogan 11:29 Right.

Robert Jones 11:29 So I left out the house and went down to the station when they went to telling me about this, uh, murder I was charged with, these armed robberies, and rape. I'm like, "Man, y'all people have lost y'all mind." Like, so me understanding this, the system as from what I was... I mean, for what was known, innocent people wasn't... It wasn't prevalent during that time. In 1992, it wasn't a, a, a huge thing where innocent people would get arrested for crimes and get convicted, right?So I'm thinking that when people commit crime, they get arrested, they go to jail. That's the standard norm, right? So I was under that, uh, uh, presumption of assuming that, well, eventually they'll get their shit right once they go to talking to folks and-

Joe Rogan 12:18 Right. Right.

Robert Jones 12:18 ... different things of that nature. And so, uh, yeah, it was mind-blowing just to be knowing I was charged with aggravated rape, um, uh, first-degree murder at the time, and a whole slew of armed robberies, you know.

Joe Rogan 12:32 And what did they try to say they had on you as far as evidence? (slurping sound)

Robert Jones 12:42 Well, a, a lot of that stuff kinda came out, uh, in the proceedings day after. They just... I mean, initially during the, during the arrest, they don't really tell you all that. You don't find these things out until you... af- eventually you're arrested and, uh... I mean, because it was a, it was a, uh, a British tourist that was involved in the... I mean, that was a, a part of the crime, so shit made national news. So I was on television, like, um, internationally. This case was, like, really huge b- because of poli- publicity. So, I mean, half of the stuff, technically, I was charged with, I didn't even understand as to what, what was the evidence and, I mean, what they had against me or what have you, until I started going to the, uh, the court proceedings. And, you know, they, they say they had eyewitnesses, then they didn't, and then they say they didn't have eyewitnesses. Uh, so in the Orleans Parish jail, right? I stayed in the Orleans Parish jail four years, four years before I was actually convicted. And that because the state's case had a lot of, uh, difficulties in... as released to the identification procedures that happened, and eventually I, I was end up convicted, because a lot of things was withheld that, uh, showed that someone else actually commit the crime, committed the crime.

Joe Rogan 14:20 And they knew about this evidence that would've exonerated you?

Robert Jones 14:23 They knew about it.

Joe Rogan 14:23 These motherfuckers. That, that to me is the craziest thing when I hear about that over and over and over again. Josh has brought this up, I don't know, to me, more than a dozen times, horrific cases where the prosecutors absolutely knew that they were convicting an innocent person.

Robert Jones 14:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:42 They knew that there was evidence. They wi- they withheld that evidence.

Robert Jones 14:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:45 How the fuck do those people not wind up going to jail? That, to me, wanting to put someone in jail for a crime that they're innocent of is almost as horrific as the crime you're charging the person with, because you're ruining a life, and you know better. You know better. Willfully holding back innocent people's evidence that would exonerate them. That's insanity. Uh, you know, Robert and I probably have (clears throat) different perspectives on this. I went into this thinking... and when I say this, I mean this work, I went into this thinking these were just a bunch of m- malicious people that, you know, were out to frame young people of color. Um, I don't think that that's always the case. I think subconsciously it's there. I think that they become so focused on winning and believing their own hunches, and that's what happened in Robert's case, um, that they go down a path. And you'll never really know what their motivation is unless you could climb into their mind and they tell you, but I know in Robert's case, because I know the case really well, that they as... they took the w- I mean, I want you to explain it, but they took the word of people that claimed they could identify him. They knew and had v- It's not that they had reason to believe, they knew that someone else committed this crime. Um, and they had an obligation to turn that evidence over to Robert and his attorneys, and they affirmatively didn't. So, you know, what their motivation was is for people to figure out on their own, but, um, it's infuriating, and I think that the only answer, we could talk about this probably later about the reform work that Robert's doing, that we're doing, the only answer is that we need to change laws to make people more accountable as law enforcement officers and prosecutors to make sure that, um, they can't just do this shit with impunity. Well, this should be a crime. It should be a crime of the highest order. If you wanna imprison someone for something that you absolutely know they didn't commit, if you have the evidence that shows that that person's innocent and you withhold that evidence and still prosecute and convict them, that should be a horrific crime. You should never work in the criminal justice system again, and you should lose your freedom. If anything will motivate you, motivate your, your listeners to, to believe what you're saying and to feel the same way, I can think of no other way than to take you through this man's journey. Because even over dinner last night, you know, I, I... you know, I had to, like, turn away and not get emotional because I don't know how he did it, I don't know how these people can have the wher- the, the mental stability and find the wherewithal to not only survive in prison, but to play such a, uh, instrumental role in their own release. Um, he's the smartest lawyer in the room. (laughs) So, you know, why don't you tell Joe about how the... how you even became a suspect, and what some of the initial problems were with the case?

Robert Jones 18:00 Yes. Uh-... how I became an initial suspect is they had a, a, well, allegedly, they had a, a false, uh, tip. It was a false tip that led, uh, the police, uh, to arrest me, uh, for these particular crimes, saying that they knew that I was involved in these crimes or what have you. Um-

Joe Rogan 18:25 Who gave them the false tip?

Robert Jones 18:27 Uh, it was anonymous.

Joe Rogan 18:30 Anonymous. Was it someone that had a grudge against you, do you think? Was it, was it someone that was trying to throw themselves off the case?

Robert Jones 18:38 I really don't know that.

Joe Rogan 18:39 You don't know?

Robert Jones 18:40 I really don't know.

Joe Rogan 18:41 Okay.

Robert Jones 18:41 Uh, I don't know how that happened. They, um-

Joe Rogan 18:43 (clears throat) But someone ...

Robert Jones 18:46 Uh- Someone actually did it, right?

Joe Rogan 18:47 Yeah.

Robert Jones 18:47 And that's just how easy someone life can get thrown away. It goes to show you how things, uh, can take a different turn. Um, so, you know, and, and a lot of these things, it didn't ... And, and one way you look at it, a lot of times that, uh, I mean, growing up in distressed neighborhoods and growing up in poor neighborhoods, you're young, you're Black, uh, uh, a crime happened to a, a tourist, a white tourist, uh, the, uh, a lot of people is looking at the city 'cause tourist- tourism. As I learned, I didn't know these things now, but as I learned while I was incarcerated, you know, tourism is a big attraction for the city of New Orleans. There was a British tourist and a lot of news coverage nationally. Like, this shit got to get done. Somebody gotta go to jail for this.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Right.

Robert Jones 19:39 Right? This ... Something have to happen. And so, you know, when you take all those things into a- account, and somebody allegedly called and said that I had something to do with the crime, I get arrested. Uh, I mean, when I got arrested, as I said, you know, I grew up, uh ... And I, and I, and I can go off into this. You know, I, I grew up in the, in, in poor neighborhoods, in poor environments. Uh, uh, I come from a single parent household. I was a, the elder of, of, of five other siblings, which is one is deceased now. Uh, because I, I essentially became a product of my environment, um, in the sense of maybe, you know, selling drugs and doing things that normal teens do in those kind of environments. Um, eventually I, I dropped out of school, um, and maybe a few years after that, I end up getting arrested for these crimes, right? So when I went to prison, went to the jail first and then eventually going to prison, only thing I was equipped with, with a lot of courage, street common sense, and that's it. That's it. Uh, I mean, I can read to the extent to get myself by, but I wasn't an excellent reader, right?

Joe Rogan 20:59 Right.

Robert Jones 21:01 Uh, I just had a lot of common sense and a lot of courage. So, uh, I mean, going through that process was, was, was, was horrible. It was horrific, and it, and, uh ... (laughs) It was, it wa- it was really horrific in a sense, because in more terms of I went through that system, and I tell folks all the time, it's like, uh, standing before a system and they speak in a whole nother language to me.

Joe Rogan 21:31 Hmm. Legalese.

Robert Jones 21:34 Jargon.

Joe Rogan 21:34 Yeah.

Robert Jones 21:34 The legal jargon-

Joe Rogan 21:35 Yeah.

Robert Jones 21:35 ... and terminologies that totally didn't understand. Didn't understand that world, period, right?

Joe Rogan 21:40 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 21:41 So going from that and being in the, in the parish prison, have to use, uh, my courage and my strength from growing up in poor environments to survive inside this institution, uh, a jail, uh, was, was horrific, I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 21:59 But you still have hope that they were gonna figure out that you were innocent because you were innocent.

Robert Jones 22:04 Right. I, I s- I still had a lot of hope because I didn't know an- As I said, innocent people wasn't, until my knowledge, until the world knowledge, uh, in 1992, it wasn't real nothing prevalent that innocent people getting caught, I mean, uh, get found guilty, right?

Joe Rogan 22:21 Right.

Robert Jones 22:22 So m- I still had like a smidgen of hope even in the parish, like, they're gonna eventually get this shit right. Or if I go to trial, nobody gonna find me guilty because I know I'm innocent. Just living off this, holding onto that, right? But as the time went on, me being in the parish, I started seeing guys that was getting convicted and they actually were saying that they was innocent. I'm like, "He lying-"

Joe Rogan 22:48 Right.

Robert Jones 22:48 "... 'cause that shit don't happen." Right?

Joe Rogan 22:50 (laughs)

Robert Jones 22:50 "He must be lying, right? This shit don't happen." I'm like ... And got ... was more, like, convincing. I'm like, "Okay, maybe that can happen, but it ain't gonna happen to me." Right? So when the shit happened to me, I'm like ... So it was like mind-blowing to a sense like, man, it was crazy.

Joe Rogan 23:09 Robert, did they as- they assigned, um, a, a, a defense attorney for you, right? A public f- defender?

Robert Jones 23:17 No, I had, I had, uh ... Yes and no, 'cause what it ... What happened was I hired a guy, but my family was poor, they couldn't really afford him, and I think he was appointed at some level of the case, right? Uh, and, yeah, so, and, and, and that, that was the gist of that. But man, it's, it, it was so much stacks against me though, to the extent of, man, like, I, I need a dream team.

Joe Rogan 23:49 Yeah. You needed-

Robert Jones 23:51 Well-

Joe Rogan 23:51 ... a s- a serious group of ac- actual excellent defenders.

Robert Jones 23:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:55 Who could go through all this information and, and with a lot of work-

Robert Jones 24:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:00 ... find out that you were innocent. But did you get ... You got a public defender eventually?

Robert Jones 24:05 ... though he was a private attorney.

Joe Rogan 24:06 So you had this private attorney.

Robert Jones 24:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:08 When you had conversations with him initially, and you were trying to explain that you had nothing to do with this, what was his initial reaction? And what was his plan? Like, what, how did he re- did he try to reassure you? What was his conversations with you like?

Robert Jones 24:25 Uh, a lot of his conversation was that, um... "I think, I think we can beat this. I think we can beat this." Predicated on, "If I get this information, if I get this, if I get this." And I was like, "Okay. If you can get this, then, you know..."

Joe Rogan 24:47 What was the information that he wanted to get?

Robert Jones 24:49 You know, different, uh, reports, supplement reports and different things of that, that he kept on fighting for that the, the courts were rejecting him on. Uh, he was like, "Man, I need that supplement report. I need to get this report." And it's, it's, it's weird because a lot of the things that he, he was requesting for, eventually years later, a lot of years later, after I was found guilty, me litigating my own case, uh, and, and working with the Innocence Project of New Orleans where they were, was able to provide the resources to investigators. Some of these same documents that this guy was looking for were some of the documents that has, uh, uh, exculpatory evidence withheld inside these documents. Uh, and other documents as well, but for the most part. So I, I can understood why he was looking for those things, but he's be, always telling me like, "Man, we can do this and we maybe can, uh, do this if, if this happened and this happened." But a lot of things never happened.

Joe Rogan 25:55 Did you learn law when you were in prison?

Robert Jones 25:59 Yeah. Uh, and I can tell you about that. Uh, that was a long journey, and it was a long and it was a fast journey because I was left with no other options. Uh, as I said, after being convicted, um, I was maybe about 22 years old and I went to Angola. Um, when I first went there, uh, I, I look at the, a lot of, a lot of the guys who was already there. When I got there, they had guys who was down like 25, 30 years, 25, 40 years. You know, I'm like, "What? You been locked up that long?" And I'm a person that I observe a lot and, you know, I think a lot, right? Uh, and I strategize a lot. So when I actually just look at a lot of these guys, was talking to a lot of them, I know, I noticed that, uh, these guys was uneducated, they didn't know the law, and they didn't have a lot of, uh, outside resources and connection with their families and, and other people, you know. So I kinda like picked those three things out. I was like, "What the hell?" Uh, and they explained to me why those things happened. They been there so long, they lose, you know, they get out of touch with a lot of their family members and different things of that nature. And they don't worry about educating themselves because they so- they're worried about how to, had to defend themself all those years. So all those things kinda like put them in that situation. A lot, and a lot of them, not all of them, but most of them was, was always angry guys, they was bitter, they was extremely dangerous. Uh, and I kinda like used those guys as a mirror, like, "I'm not gonna be like that." Right? So I kinda like took the opposite direction, but what happened was very interesting, that actually changed my life. Uh, me getting found guilty was like one of the most horrific, uh, traumatizing thing in my entire life, right? That was at that time. But within that same year, um, I lost, uh, a brother, my younger brother. Um, he was, he was, he was killed in, in the form of street violence and, and, and what have you, right? Uh, and I sorta like felt (laughs) and I can laugh about it now, but I used to cry all the time when I talk about it. I can laugh about it now because I, I sorta understand and I wa- I'm able to accept it, right? Uh, but I felt kinda responsible for his death, in a sense, even though I was incarcerated and he was, he was free. Uh, but the reason why he was killed, because he was selling drugs, not to justify his means, because that's all he knew because the environment he grew up in. He was selling drugs to raise money to hire an attorney to get me outta prison.

Joe Rogan 29:02 Oh.

Robert Jones 29:04 (laughs) And I felt, I felt really-

Joe Rogan 29:07 Wow.

Robert Jones 29:07 ... horrible and bad about that, man, you know? So, you know, I threw the, through the, through months and weeks or what have you, I felt so depressed, uh, I actually wanted to kill myself because I, I couldn't even go to the funeral. You know, so all these things I was really ... I was thinking about committing suicide and everything. But what happened was interesting, what happened was, a guy who I met when I first got there, one of the guys who, uh, I got very close with in the sense of... 'Cause me and him had a, uh, uh, a subject matter that we, we can relate to. Uh, when I was seven years old, I lost my father, my father was killed. Um, yeah, my father was killed, but my father ha- was, was a boxer, all right? And so after my father was killed, like, for maybe a couple years after, his trainers, they wanted to, like, "Man, your daddy was so good, we wanna keep this bloodline going. Like, you got to go and try to be a boxer." So they kinda like ushered me-

Joe Rogan 30:15 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 30:15 ... in that mood, and I started training, I started understanding dynamics and the concept of, of the basics of boxing. Uh-

Joe Rogan 30:22 How old were you?

Robert Jones 30:24 ... how, how old I was during that time.

Narrator 30:25 When, when they started training you?

Robert Jones 30:27 Maybe eight. Eight until maybe about 11 or 12, somethin' to that, in that bracket. It was a couple of years I stayed, and going back and forward, um-

Narrator 30:38 Was this something you wanted to do? Or was this something that you felt like they were just trying to push you into doing it?

Robert Jones 30:43 I think they was pushing me to it.

Narrator 30:44 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 30:44 It's not that I actually didn't want to do it, but that's why I stopped doing it, right?

Narrator 30:48 Right.

Robert Jones 30:49 Eventually I stopped doing it and did something else. Uh, but, so me and this guy who I, I, I'm, I'm speaking of, had this kinda relationship as it relates to... 'Cause he was a boxing trainer inside the institution. And me and him used to have a discussion about certain things, about how you train guys. It's like, you know, if you train a guy to be, uh, uh, aggressive in a sense, don't hit him too much with the meat gloves 'cause you're gonna make him a defensive, you know?

Narrator 31:18 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 31:18 And that kind of... Just different little things like that, right? So we'd have these kind of discussions. And so he was the one that kinda came to my aid when, uh, I was going through the dramatic, uh, process with my brother being, you know, uh, killed. Right? Uh, I was walking the yard, I was crying one day and he just walked up to me like, "Man, what's going on?" I'm like, "Man, I don't really want to talk about it." You know? I'm like, "Man, just give me my space." He was like, "Man, no, man, you my friend. I won't... I'm gonna help you." He said, "Let me tell you this, and you might understand this." He said that life is like boxing, right? He said, "Every time life throw a punch at you, you gotta throw a counter punch." And he said, "If you don't throw a counter punch, life will just knock you out just like you get knocked out in the ring." And I'm like, it ain't dawn on me when he told me. When I went back to my cell, I'm like, "You know what? This guy fucking right." You know? I got to fight back. I can't just, you know, uh, just sit back and continue on to blame the system, oh, dude, the system is at fault, and blame other people for what they ain't doing. I got to fight. And that conversation sparked something in me and actually changed my life. So from there, I enrolled myself in a litera- uh, uh, uh, a literacy program inside the institution. Uh, and it's funny now when I think about it because they started me out in the third grade. I dropped out in the eighth grade, but they started me out in the third grade in a literacy program, in which I excelled, uh, those programs ex- extremely fast because I'm like, "What the hell? Third grade?" But I was glad I had to take that route, right? 'Cause I wanted to relearn all those things and freshen myself up. And eventually I got that to GED school, uh, and at the same time, I was studying the law, right? 'Cause I knew, I said, man, my brother was, was gone. He technically was my only financial resource that I had or e- a chance that I ever had was of getting an attorney. My family couldn't afford it, right? So that w- led him to what he was doing to try to help me. So I was like, "I gotta do this shit myself." Ain't no way I'm gonna get experience in the law if I don't know how to ... if I don't

Robert Jones 33:50 have no academical skills, right? So I gotta master this shit. And it came back to these different things. I'm like, "All these guys have been here all this time, they were uneducated, that mean I gotta get educated. Uh, they didn't know the law, that mean I gotta master this shit." Right? And they didn't have no resources, I gotta get resources. So that's, that's all I ever focused on. So inside the institution, after, you know, I studied the law for, for, for years and I went in from the Constitution all the way up to, uh, man, I s- I studied everything about the law to the, to the point is I started taking corresponding courses in various aspects of laws, um, different branches, criminal, civil, uh, uh, and I started studying politics. Started studying all this stuff. And one of the things, reason why I didn't want to be the smartest person inside there and go to prison, but I didn't want to be that same 19-year-old kid that stood before the courtroom that didn't understand shit that was going on in front of me. Right? And I wanted to be, I wanted to be educated enough to help myself get out of prison and stay out of prison, and change the system. So that's, that, that was brought on that, that level of education. Um, that... So, so, so for many years, um, and one of the things how I maintained a lot of my resources I get, got a lot of resources is, a lot of people used to spend a lot of their money in the commissary, um, in which I used to spend money in the commissary as well, but a lot of my money I used to sacrifice. I told you I'm a very, uh, strategic person. I used to invest in 100 stamps a month and I saved the five... And I think stamp was maybe 25 cents, 20 s- 29 cents during the time. So it's more than... It was less than $30 a month, right? For the, for the g- for the, get me 100 stamps. So if I c- I said, "If I can write 100 people in a month and if three people respond from the 100 people I wrote and bring me help, that's a, that's a $30 investment, right? For me to actually-

Narrator 36:15 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 36:15 ... get the help that I need and, uh, to get my freedom."

Narrator 36:19 And who were you writing to?

Robert Jones 36:20 Everybody. I wrote the President of the United States, I wrote the federal government, I wrote everybody. Then I started talking, over the period of years, I started talking to certain people, investigators, lawyers, uh...... uh ... Then when I started hearing about the Innocence Projects that were surfacing around the country, uh, I started writing them and eventually, uh, it worked out. All right? Uh, but prior to those folks coming on and bringing, uh, the resources to help me, I was litigating my own cases. I was litigating cases for other guys inside the institution. Uh, I had got so good at- at- at litigating to the extent I was winning cases in the- the highest state court, the circuit courts. I was getting guys, like, hearings. Uh, I had an impeccable prison record as far as rehabilitating myself. I completed all the cell fell programs. I was in charge of- of three of the organizations there that was creating programs for guys. I mean, uh, there was a whole lot of things I was doing. I- I- I done had, like, rule infractions for, like, expand from, like, 10 to 15 years, and which is- is- is- is hard to do.

Josh Dubin 37:39 What do you mean by that? Rule infractions 10 to 15 years?

Robert Jones 37:41 For getting a write-up.

Josh Dubin 37:43 What does that-

Robert Jones 37:43 Like-

Josh Dubin 37:43 What do you mean?

Robert Jones 37:44 Inside when you're in prison, it's like, a rule infraction is, like, they got a set of rules, really strict rules.

Josh Dubin 37:50 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 37:50 And if you violate in any kind of way, they call that a write-up or a rule infraction.

Josh Dubin 37:56 Okay.

Robert Jones 37:57 And it's hard to get that inside the institution, not to ... I mean, not to get write-ups, right?

Josh Dubin 38:02 Right.

Robert Jones 38:03 Uh, because you got some guards has got animosity towards you. They just don't like you or whatever. They might get you to do something or- or that you don't want to do. Uh, so it's- it's- it's hard to- to- to balance those things, but I managed to do that, right? And I was getting all these help for these guys, getting reversal for guys, and, uh, some guys was getting, um, lesser sentencing and getting out of prison. I'm like, "I can't help myself. I can't win shit for myself." You know? And I had all the right things. As a matter of fact, some of the very same issues that I eventually got out on when I had the resources, some of the very same issues that I was litigating myself, like, years before I got out. And like, why I couldn't get out then? Why? 'Cause I ain't had the resources. So yeah, that's- that's- that's kind of- that sort of, like, explained, you know, um, my level of- of educating myself to the extent of I've learned all these things, man, you know?

Josh Dubin 39:07 You know, I was ... Joe, last night (clears throat) ... You know, I know Robert now for five years, and I almost f- I- I told him last night, I was like, "I almost feel ashamed to ask you this," (sighs) because I got this reputation as, like, this real aggressive, hard-charging, um, attorney when it comes to these innocence cases, and that I'll say things that other people may be, you know, a little bit more reluctant to say to a judge. And, you know, I'm not the traditional attorney, but I- and I said to Robert last night, you know, "But I don't kid myself that when it comes to toughness, I can't even wrap my head around trying to get it in your mind space where you're having ninth grade education, you're put in prison for something you didn't do, and I know myself and know that I would have been a puddle, and I don't know how I would have survived, let alone had the wherewithal to overcome what he overcame." So he was telling me a story last night about how ... 'Cause I said, "I know Angola is one of the most dangerous penitentiaries in the country." Um, it's a very violent place full of very violent people, um, and has a long sordid past of not having oversight. Um, there's murders, there's everything that you think about when you think of nightmares in a penitentiary happens there, maybe twofold. That's a guess, but it's a very violent place, suffice to say. So I said, "Well, how- how did you navigate that?" Um, and I'm, you know, I'm not going to put you on the spot to explain it. I mean, I love to hear that shit because, you know, he very early on, he said, "I got that out of the way right away so that I can focus on..." Identified these three things and wanted to do the opposite of what people lacked. In other words, he said, "The people that weren't getting out of there had no education, didn't know the law, and had no support." He said, "I was going to get those three things, and I made that decision early, and I realized if I don't get respect to be able to focus on those three things, then I'm going to have to worry about violence the whole time and protecting myself." So just the contours ... You could hear these words about people getting out, and I- I just ... That's why I think this is so important that people understand the contours of the suffering and- and the- the practical considerations of survival that he had to go through. I mean, if you feel comfortable telling-

Robert Jones 42:01 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 42:01 ... some of those stories, you should, because I think it helps people understand, like, what you have to deal with just to stay alive.

Robert Jones 42:09 Right.

Josh Dubin 42:09 Just to fend off assaults.

Robert Jones 42:11 Right. Right. And, uh, yeah, it's- it's ...

Joe Rogan 42:17 So you had to get that out of the way. You had to make that a non-issue.

Robert Jones 42:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:22 You had to concentrate on your ... all- all the things that you needed to concentrate on-

Robert Jones 42:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:26 ... to get you out of jail. So how did you manage to avoid all that violence?

Robert Jones 42:31 Uh, by, uh...... addressing it head on, you know. Uh, and, and that, uh, that became be, uh, that because of who I am as a person, I'm just very courageous type person. But the environment I wa- I was raised in, it, it, it groom you to be tough, right? Groom you to be tough. And, you know, as, as, one thing when I got there, I was saying, "Okay, uh, I'm a come in ... I'm, I'm a leave out just like I came in. I came in a man, uh, and I'm a leave out there like that." When they, it, you know, if, if it's for me to get out of prison, that's how I'm a leave out. Uh, so I'm, I'm a keep my dignity and my pride and I'm a stand up. Uh, so once, once I seen how, uh, that was, then I, I ... In, in a, in a situation that confronted me, uh ... In other words, it's like you bring me ignorance, I'm a bring you ignorance like you never seen before. Right? No matter how small I am, you- uh, how big you are, or how many of me you are. If you, you bring me bullshit, I'm a give you a cesspool.

Narrator 43:51 (laughs)

Robert Jones 43:51 I'm a always go higher than your ignorance, right? And having that mindset ... So, you know, and have, I had some instance, uh ... Well, and like I said, I was a good boxer, was a good fighter. Uh, and, you know, I had a mindset and 'cause I understood boxing, it's like, you know when I'm boxing I c- you know, if I'm in the ring, I can't hit below the belt, right? But if I'm fighting you on the street, I'm trying to win. I mean, I'm a bite your ass. I'm a poke your eyes out. I'm a, I'm a wrestle you. They ain't got no damn rules. I'm trying to win. And me having that mindset of, of, of defending myself, uh, what years later came to where I had to use weapon, weapons. Uh, but so I had a mindset and I had incident after incident until, uh, until guys realized that this guy here ain't to be fucked with, right? And he's not afraid 'cause most guys, are, uh, uh, are afraid. Like ... If we ex- in other words like, if me and you exchange words, and I'm just, I'm give you a prime example, like fuck you. My fuck you is a, is a, is a physical confrontation. Your fuck you is a verbal, mine a physical confrontation. I'm always go higher than your ignorance, right? And me having that mindset, I protected myself to the extent of a lot of bullshit stayed arou- from around me. Not that guys fear me, but it's like if you cross-

Narrator 45:28 You were too much danger.

Robert Jones 45:30 Yeah. If you, if you cross-

Narrator 45:31 You weren't worth fucking with.

Robert Jones 45:31 Yeah. If you cross his path, he gone, he gone bring you the best.

Narrator 45:36 He, he told me about he's, the s- the second day he was in the parish jail, um ...

Robert Jones 45:43 Yep. (laughs)

Narrator 45:44 Well, you tell it. (laughs) . Because I said how quickly did you have to establish that?

Robert Jones 45:49 No, well, the-

Narrator 45:50 You don't have to tell all the gritty details.

Robert Jones 45:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, oh, this-

Narrator 45:55 Or, or you can. (laughs)

Robert Jones 45:55 This being in, uh, this ... You know, the second day just being in and arrested for this crimes and, uh, charges, uh, I had to ... I went in a situation of like, okay, I'm a be here so I had to kinda like see how things was moving around. So it was a situation where the s- the stronger, stronger guys would get more food and the weaker guys would kinda get lesser food. And there's certain things that was happening, right? Uh, stronger guys eat first and the weaker guys eat last. And I'm like, "I ain't either one of these kind of guys, so I'm a get my shit straight now." You know, so incident occur, uh, I was able to, uh, manage to take care of my business in the sense of challenging one of the guys. Uh, and eventually it, it, it got to a level where guys had respected me from doing that 'cause I was a newcomer that was coming into there and I took it upon myself to actually challenge these guys and confront one of these guys and dominated the, the situation to the extent where everybody started giving me a level of respect, you know, to the extent like, "He's a newcomer but he ain't nothing to ..." So I kinda like mimicked that same role or concept when I got to Angola to establish myself first. And like I said, it, it occurred over the period of years, over the period of years, but eventually the shit just like starts smoothing out, you know. Even though it's still happening around me, all around me. Guys were getting killed, um, I done, I done seen a lot of that stuff. You know, guys, uh ... You know, it's, it was horrible, you know. But I just was there or not there 'cause I was focused, man. I was trying to get out of prison. I know I ain't belong in there for number one, uh, and I know what I had to do in order for to put myself in the position to win.

Narrator 48:06 How difficult was it to stay on track? You're in there for 24 years for something that you didn't do. Like, was it, was it hard not to lose hope?

Robert Jones 48:18 Yeah. It's ... I wasn't ... You ... It, it, it always a ... And, and, and people can tell you this, is as much as strong as, strong as, as people say I am and other peoples are, uh, that's, that, that come from wrongful conviction inside an institution.And I think that's, like, one of the most two feared things that they say, and I can... I, I, I will agree with it, that scientists and other people say that man has two worstest fears, of dying and being terminally ill, right? That's, that's, that's two hill.

Josh Dubin 48:57 Yeah.

Robert Jones 48:58 Yeah. So me having all the hope and saying, "Man, I'm gonna get outta here. I'm gonna get outta here." Didn't really know how, how that was gonna happen, but it's a... it's a, it's a level of faith that you gotta hold onto, right? And... but somewhere in your back, in your mind because you, you constantly seeing it every day and... a- and in Angola guys been announced, uh, incarcerated for so long that they die almost every day. A lot of people don't know that. People die in that institution every day and you seeing this shit.

Josh Dubin 49:31 They're dying of old age, they're dying from-

Robert Jones 49:33 Old, old-

Josh Dubin 49:33 ... murder.

Robert Jones 49:33 Old age.

Josh Dubin 49:34 Old age?

Robert Jones 49:35 Old age. You know, they been there for so long, they just-

Josh Dubin 49:37 How, how many people are in Angola locked up?

Robert Jones 49:40 Uh, (sighs) more than 5,000, right?

Josh Dubin 49:43 They have their own TV station.

Robert Jones 49:45 Radio station and-

Josh Dubin 49:47 Magazine.

Robert Jones 49:47 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 49:48 It's like a world. And you know, what, what's, um... what's hard to f- you know, and, and the reason why that I think that this is so important is because you have to transport yourself and allow yourself to go, you know, he sh- he gave the story short shrift. What happens is, the second day he's in there, you know, the guys that are there for a, a long time, they call them the New Jack, and they... he was first in line. He got out of his cell first, and he's ready to go get food. And he said he saw on the first day that what happened is they come out with loaves of bread. The guys that have been there for the longest-

Robert Jones 50:31 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 50:31 ... take all the bread and leave the ends for the New Jacks. So he was out of his cell and was the third in line, and one of the guys was like, "You need to get your ass to the back of the line."

Robert Jones 50:44 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 50:45 And he was like, "Okay."

Robert Jones 50:47 (laughs)

Josh Dubin 50:47 And he went to the back of the line, and then, uh, when it came time to eat, the guy that put him to the back of the line didn't end up eating. He ended up on the floor, and to protect, (laughs) to protect the details, you know, Robert put him on the floor-

Robert Jones 51:11 Right.

Josh Dubin 51:12 ... as a way to say, "Okay, if you kick me to the back of the line, I'm not gonna have words with you. I'm gonna make you feel it so that no one's sending me to the back of the line because I'm gonna eat like everybody else."

Robert Jones 51:22 Right.

Josh Dubin 51:22 And that takes a level of ballsiness, I think.

Robert Jones 51:25 Yeah. And, and to, like, to, to also interject into the story, uh, yeah, and when he told me, "To get to the back of the line," I... actually, I didn't go to the back of the line. Another guy allowed me to get, like, maybe three spots behind him 'cause he was like, "That's bullcrap." Uh, but I already had it in my mind, like, "I'm gonna kick his ass. I'm going to kick his ass."

Josh Dubin 51:48 Thank God you knew how to fight.

Robert Jones 51:50 Yeah, "I'm going to kick his ass." Uh, that or either pick up something and, and use it as a weapon on him, um, and eventually I did. Uh, took care of my business. I put his ass on the ground in a pool of blood, and I let everybody knew on both sides of the tiers of terror, there was maybe 56 people, I let everybody know in the pod that I ain't the one. And if you think I'm just talking or I'm, I'm just verbally just saying these things, if you just give me a fair chance and with each one of y'all that feel that way and I kick everybody... I kick all y'all ass. And I wasn't... I mean, I, I know I can't beat everybody in the world, but I damn well... I damn tried, right? So me doing that, that's what kind of like, "Hold up, man. This, this little guy in here is something... he's something else," right? So eventually start getting my little respect. I ate just like everybody else eat, uh, the ones who was doing what they was doing, and eventually over the period of time, uh, uh, a lot of stuff I got upset with because it wasn't right. I'm a fair person, right? So eventually, uh, I end up taking a guy job in, in what they call, like, tier reps, right? Yeah, you're the rep for these, these guys.

Josh Dubin 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 53:16 And, you know, so I end up getting into competition with the guy that took his position and from that point on, I was in the Parish, I always maintained that kind of position. That's being a representative for a lot of these guys 'cause I'm a p- and guys wanted me with that position per- because not that I was... they know I wasn't side with the administration.

Josh Dubin 53:36 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 53:37 Right? They know I'm gonna play it fair across the board. Like, if the administration was to bring me, uh, a pan that I know that wasn't gonna feed the 50 people, I'm gonna slide that shit back out the door. "Uh, w- we not eating, all right. We going on banned. We going, we gone, we gone banned. We, we not gon' eat 'cause I'm not gonna take that and feed all these men. It's not enough food." And having that kind of... it, it just gave a lot of people a lot of respect for me, uh, while I was there. Like I said, I still went through shit that everybody else go through by being in jail.

Josh Dubin 54:12 So they gave you... like, they would give you a plan for how much food everybody would get, and then you would, you would-

Robert Jones 54:18 No, what happened-

Josh Dubin 54:19 ... be able to negotiate with them?

Robert Jones 54:20 No, in the Parish, in the Parish jail what happened was it... you know, like, if-

Josh Dubin 54:27 Robert, try to talk into the microphone.

Robert Jones 54:28 Oh, I'm sorry.

Josh Dubin 54:28 Just pull it, just pull it up towards you.

Robert Jones 54:30 All right.

Josh Dubin 54:30 Or move your seat. Doesn't matter.

Robert Jones 54:33 Yeah, so what happened, what happens is they... if they give you a pan of, uh, red beans, right, and a pan of rice, uh, and it may not be... it's not enough. They're supposed to have two pans-... uh, and maybe two pans of rice or a pan and a half of rice in order to feed that... In order for... To give people a amount of, uh, a amount of food that's gonna make them full. Now it might be enough for somebody else to serve, and give... and skim guys on the tray, not giving them a lot of food, but I'm not gonna accept that to feed them guys. I'm not gonna do that. You might do that with somebody else, but you not gonna-

Joe Rogan 55:13 So it was... You were able to negotiate? You were able to get more food?

Robert Jones 55:16 Yes. Every time. Every time. Uh, and guys respected me for that, because I was able to, to play fair across the board on those different levels there, you know. Uh, and that's who I am. You know, I'm just a fair person.

Joe Rogan 55:31 So how many years did it take you before you started to see the light at the end of the tunnel? How many years did it take you before you were able to get people to review your case and recognize you had been wrongly convicted?

Robert Jones 55:51 Wow. Never thought about that. Uh, (clicks tongue) they had, they had... You know, maybe after, uh... No, I can tell you this. Th- this what happens. And... unbelievable. Uh, I got convicted in 1996. Um, I filed my first post-conviction as a, what they call pro se litigant, litigant, meaning I did it myself. And in the year 2000, I received a evidentiary hearing, which is a hearing without no attorney. Uh, and my issue was mainly was about the DNA testing. Uh, I was asking the courts to preserve, uh, the testing, if there's any testing, that's... if there's any testing that's available, to preserve the, uh, the DNA testing so I can test it and prove my innocence. And I got granted that evidentiary hearing for a, a motion I did. Well, unbeknownst to me, years later, that was the first ever of a motion that was granted on that capacity, because they end up creating a law for the preserved DNA testing. That's way after I did this in 2000... in, in the year 2000, right? I was like so ahead of time with this, with this, with this filing. Uh, and I didn't even know it. Um, so from there, I end up getting denied in the courts, uh, and this is a whole line of... it was a whole, uh, chain of other things. But I maybe... I think in 2010 or '11 that the Innocence Project of New Orleans came on board to bring their resources to, to, to help me out. And even, even after that, even after that, uh, I still was getting denials with them, right? We still was getting denials. So, uh, and I tell, I tell people all the time, it's like, you know, throughout the course of 23 years and seven months, I had 16 denials from every court, from the lower courts to the middle courts to the highest court.

Josh Dubin 58:38 And let's think about what's happening here, by the way. What's happening here, (clears throat) just to put this into context, is that Robert is asking the court to order the prosecutors preserve the biological evidence from the crime scene. This was a rape and a murder. They had collected evidence, and he is saying to them, "Please don't destroy the evidence, because I want to prove my innocence." And I've talked to you about this before, about how prosecutors and state politicians fight this being made a law all over the country, and they come up with excuses like, "Well, then we're gonna have a rash of people that want their evidence preserved and retested. There'll be a run on the courts." I mean, this seems to me to be a fundamental human right, okay? Of somebody that's accused of a crime, that on the strength of snitch testimony and hidden evidence, which we're gonna get to what was hidden from him and his legal team in a minute, that he is fighting a seven-year battle... excuse me, a 14-year battle, just to try to get somebody to help him get an order from the court to preserve the DNA. I would like to say that this is an anomaly and that this only happened in Robert's case. It happens in, in way too many cases that I've handled and that the Innocence Project handles and the criminal justice reform organizations handle all over the country. So a lot of what we... of what I get, um, as a result of speaking out is, "How can I help?" One of the ways you can help is... You know, your voice matters when you are el- voting for elected officials. Your voice matters when you are writing a letter to a governor. Your voice matters if you show up at a town hall meeting. It really does all matter, and we have to keep on pounding the, the, um... beating the drum to make sure that fundamental rights like this, uh, laws to protect these rights are enacted.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 ... but I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before-

Robert Jones 1:00:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 ... I lost the thought. But-

Robert Jones 1:00:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 ... because by the time the New Orle-

Robert Jones 1:00:52 That's important.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 ... the Innocence Project of New Orleans comes along, and eventually, um, Barry Scheck and, and my dear friend, Nina Morrison, who are ... you know who Barry is, but Nina's, uh, um, one of the, the leaders at the Innocence Project in New York. Um, she just got, you know, put forth as a potential federal judge pick. She'd be an amazing choice. Um, really started to take his case on and expose all of this evidence that was hidden. But prior to that, he was, you know, a one-legged man in a shit-kicking contest, to say the least.

Robert Jones 1:01:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 I mean, he's fighting this all on his own. But go-

Robert Jones 1:01:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 ... go ahead. I don't wanna-

Robert Jones 1:01:31 Yeah. And, well, not only did a lot of my pleadings, uh, was about preserving the evidence, it was, it was also about all the withheld evidence and all the things that actually pointed to my innocence. So this one pleading ... It was multiple pleadings that were file- that I was filing throughout the ... like I s- the span of time. So as I said, these 16 denials came over the course of, uh, the 23 years and seven months. And trust me, each one of them denials felt like a guilty verdict all over again. Every one of them, right? But, but eventually they became numb to like ... (laughs) This shit is a- is all the same, right? Like one denial feel like the same, you know. Even though it hurt because you, you been to build yourself up to the extent like, "All right, I'm doing all this amazing shit and reeducated myself. I'm doing all this great shit, but what the hell? I'm still not out of prison." And so when the Innocence Project of New Orleans was able to bring all the resources, we still was getting denials. Still getting with denial. I'm like, "Goddamn, I got the facts, I got the law on my side, like what the hell?" You know? And, you know, you, you hold onto the hope, uh, but, you know, it's always in the back of your mind that go- you get back to this peace, it's always in the back of your mind like, "Man, it's a possibility I might die here." Right? And something that you dread y- you know, that's one of the worstest thing, uh, for any person incarcerated, but especially like when you're innocent. Like, there's a reasonable probability that I might die here.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 How many guys do you think you met in jail that were innocent that were probably gonna die there?

Robert Jones 1:03:25 Uh, I met a lot of innocent guys, uh, in there, but I also met a lot of guys who actually died, right? 'Cause like o- and, and, and some instance when I was in prison, um, I used to work for this, for this hospice program, right? We deal with a lot of the, um, the elderly, uh, the, the, the terminally ill, uh, uh, prisoners over there on the hospital ward, in the hospital ward, right? You go to ... you go over there and you care for 'em and you do these things for these guys. And a lot of those guys who right before they die, like, you know, 'cause I shared my story and let 'em know I was innocent, you know? And they like, uh, they was in their right mind, it's like, "Robert, I'm, I'm innocent, man. I'm innocent." And I'm like ... Not all of 'em, but I, I did- I did- I done had that conversation with, with a lot of 'em. And I'm like, "Okay, uh, you got no reason to lie, you about to die." Right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 Yeah.

Robert Jones 1:04:29 There's no reason for him to lie, right? As- as- as nothing that could happen. And so I, I, I believed them, right? So and it ... and that was a ... it was quite a few of 'em that, that came into the junction, uh, of, of expressing that they were innocent.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 I'm glad you're wearing that T-shirt. Um, the, the death penalty kills innocent people because, um, I think there's a lot of people that have this sort of hard-nosed idea that the death penalty is a good thing because, uh, it kills people who do bad things. And it's very simplistic. But the problem with that is that the legal system is very, very, very flawed. Very flawed. So this idea that the d- the d- the death penalty kills innocent people is, is a very important idea. And i- it ... People need to understand that for your ... in your, your case, your situation, it's not unusual. This, this story that you're telling, it's unique and it's, it's amazing that you went through it and that you, you figured out a way to educate yourself and to get yourself out, but there's n- you're not an unusual case in that. There's a lot of innocent people that get locked up.

Robert Jones 1:05:41 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Look at the back of my shirt.

Robert Jones 1:05:43 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Those are all innocent people who were killed? Those are all, those are all innocent people that were convicted and sentenced to death and have since been exonerated.

Robert Jones 1:05:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 So Clemente Aguirre's on the back of this shirt, you've heard his story-

Robert Jones 1:06:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 ... before. And, um, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit later about some cases of people that are still on ... that are still on death row right now, um, that there are strong, strong cases for innocence for them. And, you know, you touched on something really important, which is that (clears throat) when you hear about a horrific crime, I think it's human nature-

Robert Jones 1:06:25 I for one. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Yeah, yeah. And there's this really fascinating thing that happens during the death penalty case. The first phase of jury selection is called death qualification. It's a, um, a pretty shitty name for it. And it's this phase where you, um, are there to gauge people's feelings about the death penalty.

Josh Dubin 1:06:50 And having gone through jury selection in death penalty cases, it's, it's a, it's rather fascinating sort of human experiment if you think about it, because what the Supreme Court, um, of the United States, not of any particular state has said is that if a state is gonna put someone to death, you have to have this process by which you cannot have people on the jury, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but you cannot have people on the jury that feel that if somebody is convicted of a capital case and a capital crime that you will automatically vote for the death penalty. And you also can't have people on the jury that are so against the death penalty that they'll never vote for it. Now, during this process of gauging people's, um, feelings about the death penalty, you get to have a conversation with them, and you can see the, the conflict, the emotional tumult in their words, in their body language, um, in wrestling with, well, if somebody would, you know, murder a child or, you know, they deserve to die, but then you also, you know, s- see, but how, but unless I know 100% they did it, I don't know if it makes sense to hold the- and you see this wrestling, this existential wrestling going on. Then there are some people that come in and say, "That's right. I'm definitely voting for death, um, if, if I think they did it." Um, and, you know, it's fraught with so many problems because of the finality of it, right? And, you know, people have different philosophical beliefs, but if you knew the sheer number of people that, you know, Florida leads the nation in death row exonerations.

Robert Jones 1:08:49 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:08:49 Um, it's had... It would have put 30 people to death that were actually innocent that have been exonerated from Florida's death row.

Robert Jones 1:08:56 Over how m- what period of time?

Josh Dubin 1:08:59 Um, 30 or so years. So that would be, you know, one person, one person a year, um, innocent person killed on the dea- So yeah, we all, we all... I think a lot of criminal justice reform is about... We live in a society that's so, "If you're not this, you're that."

Robert Jones 1:09:23 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:09:23 "You're either on this team or that team." It's a very binary-

Robert Jones 1:09:26 Simplified.

Josh Dubin 1:09:26 ... yeah, zero-sum game.

Robert Jones 1:09:28 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:09:28 And, you know, nothing... Human existence is far more complicated, and there are too many layers of gray areas that, you know, everybody should really stop and pump the brakes on their thought process and not be so wedded to how they were brought up or what their parents believe or what they think their friends believe, and really take stock of, you know, "What am I really about and what do I stand for?" You know, I say often that I stand in awe of these exonerees beg- even, even as h- as I'm listening to it today, I'm hearing it, and I know the story, but to know what, what Robert had to endure, um, it's, it's just hard to imagine how a human being could get past it. I mean, he, he told me about the first time he saw people go for food in jail, and he said, "It was like a bunch of fucking savages, you know, running after food and grabbing it and running away." He said, "I thought... It looked to me it was like..." You know, I think what you said, it was like paralyzing to me because it was like, you know, I saw human beings in their most sort of, um, primitive form. And he said, "Well, this is, this is different." (laughs) You know, "I'm in a, I'm in a battle."

Robert Jones 1:10:44 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:10:45 Robert, can you explain some of the, um, what you ended up finding out was hidden from you? What was the exculpatory evidence?

Robert Jones 1:10:57 Oh. Um, they would, they would held that, uh... First of all, first of all, uh, maybe I can ex- uh, explain the, the crimes, right? There was a spree of crime that happened in the French Quarter in New Orleans. Um, there was two... I think three armed robberies, uh, a rape and a kidnapping, and a murder was tied to that. So they, they, they took all these crimes and said it was a part of a spree. All right? They had a, um, a car that was involved, uh, in the crime, and they eventually over the period, well, over the couple of weeks after the crime happened maybe, um, they found out who the car, uh, that was involved, and during the time when they was doing the investigation, my name came up as a, as a anonymous tip came in, right?

Josh Dubin 1:12:07 Mm-hmm.

Robert Jones 1:12:07 So what they, what they did was they eventually arrested me and connected me to the car that was actually used in, in, in all these sprees of crime, including the, the, the murder, the robbery, the kidnappings, and the rape. Uh, and years later, uh, they eventually found out that another guy got arrested for the murder, uh, and was connected. He, in his possession, he had possessed a jury and articles of evidence from each sp- crime spree.... and-

Josh Dubin 1:12:53 From each of the victims.

Robert Jones 1:12:54 Yeah, to the-

Josh Dubin 1:12:55 He had jewelry from the woman that was robbed.

Robert Jones 1:12:58 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:12:58 He had clothing from one of the other women, I think the woman that was raped.

Robert Jones 1:13:02 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:13:03 Um, and they never turned this over to him.

Robert Jones 1:13:05 Right. And so, yeah, they woulda, they woulda held that, um, from me. That was, that, that-

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 How did they connect you with the car?

Robert Jones 1:13:15 That's what, that's, that's what I'm about to explain. They connected me to the car, how they connected me with the car, uh... The, the prosecutor theory was that, like, when they arrested this guy, they got him to say that me and him was friends, and he, he allowed me to use the car, right, at times, uh, t- to commit the crime, but all the evidence suggested, uh, differently. And so, at trial, what they did was, they charged... He got convicted of the, the actual murder, right? He got convicted of murder and they separated him from the other crimes and they charged me with the other crimes, right? But un- unbeknownst to me, uh, on the day of trial that I was, uh, uh... for the rape, kidnapping and the armed robberies, that, uh... He told the prosecutor that I had nothing to do with none of the crimes, that he- I never used the car, none of that, right? But when I went to trial, the prosecutor said something totally opposite. They prosecuted me on the theory that me and this guy was best friends, he allowed me to use his car-

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 Did you know him?

Robert Jones 1:14:41 I didn't know him at all. Never seen him a day in my life.

Josh Dubin 1:14:45 And the-

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 And-

Josh Dubin 1:14:45 ... the short answer to your question, Joe, about wha- what they had connecting him to the car, a driver's license... You would think a driver's license, a registration, insurance, someone that had seen them in the car. The answer is they had absolutely nothing. They had a word, they had the word of a guy that had been accused and tied to these murders who was looking to put it on someone else.

Joe Rogan 1:15:05 But how did he put it on you though?

Josh Dubin 1:15:07 He found out that there was a tip.

Robert Jones 1:15:10 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:15:10 Implicating him.

Robert Jones 1:15:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:12 Mm.

Robert Jones 1:15:12 Right. Absolutely. And-

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 And so he tried to be a snitch to get the heat off of him-

Robert Jones 1:15:18 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:15:18 ... and put it on you.

Robert Jones 1:15:19 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:15:19 (inhales deeply) And they let that happen?

Robert Jones 1:15:22 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 Even though they knew?

Robert Jones 1:15:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:24 (sighs)

Robert Jones 1:15:24 And, and it goes deeper this- than that. Uh, af- so after I get convicted, uh... I'm still charged with the, with, with, with the murder of the British tourist, right? I'm still, I'm still actually charged with it even though I haven't been going back and forth to court with it at this time. After I get convicted, and I know I was gonna get a life sentence for the rape, uh, the kidnapping and three armed robberies, uh... So the district attorney, uh, made a offer to my defense attorney, um, and eventually brought it to me on the day of my sentencing, said that, "Okay, uh, we can give him 25 years, or 21 years for the murder, get him a manslaughter," right? And I don't know what type of stuff that happens out of my presence between my attorney and the district attorney, but I was scared as shit. I just received a life sentence, uh, I know I was about to be sentenced to life for the, the rape, and 25 or whatever, maybe 99 years for every armed robbery. I don't know, I was scared as shit. So I took the 21-year plea, but I never admitted to anything, right? And a part of the evidence was that the guy, uh, who we, we, we talking about that, that was, is initially trying to involve me, he was found guilty of the murder already. He was already found guilty of the murder.

Joe Rogan 1:16:58 So they were trying you for a crime they already had convicted someone for.

Robert Jones 1:17:03 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:17:03 How, how is that possible?

Robert Jones 1:17:05 It happened.

Josh Dubin 1:17:06 Because that, what they were trying to say is that if two people are in a car and you're both out committing crimes, right?

Joe Rogan 1:17:13 You're both responsible.

Josh Dubin 1:17:14 You're both responsible. There's something called the felony murder rule. And the felony murder rule is that if you're in the commission of a crime and somebody dies, so if you and I went and robbed a bank, and I go in and start, you know, shooting up at the tellers and kill two tellers, you're responsible for the murder also. So the theory of Robert's prosecution was that they were friends, they were on this crime spree together, and that even though he was convicted of the murder, um, you know, he was still responsible and guilty of murder. It's no different than the James Daly case which I've talked about before. They convicted one guy, Jack Piercey, and then they tried my client after that. One guy got sentenced to life, one guy got sentenced to death.

Joe Rogan 1:18:00 It's crazy they don't have to have any evidence whatsoever that you're even friends with that guy.

Robert Jones 1:18:04 Right, right. And-

Josh Dubin 1:18:05 They had his word.

Robert Jones 1:18:06 Right.

Josh Dubin 1:18:06 Isn't his word enough?

Robert Jones 1:18:08 And, and the, the, the piece of evidence, another article of evidence they withheld is a report that, uh, that when he made a statement, like, the morning of my trial, as I said, (smacks lips) that I didn't have anything to do with the murder, he never knew me, and different things of that nature, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:18:29 And they withheld that?

Robert Jones 1:18:30 And they, and they withheld that. And that was important to change the outcome of my, my trial because they went, they took me to trial on the theory that we were friends and that I knew him and that I had a connection to him through the car. But had I woulda had that piece of information, the, there interjected in my trial, I woulda never probably got found guilty to that extent. And they also withheld various different, um, uh, uh, uh-... statements and evidence as it relates to the witnesses that was very inconsistent, that was very unfavorable to me. And that could have actually pointed back to the, to the guy who was actually, uh, uh, uh, convicted of the murder, uh, and attached to all those other spree of crimes. Um, yeah, so it, it just was a, a, a lot of stuff, man, that they withheld that, that almost made it impossible, um, for me to unravel and to, uh, to o-obtain my freedom.

Josh Dubin 1:19:33 And you know, I'd like to say that that's uncommon too, but it's not. So in other words, when prosecutors are working on one theory full steam ahead, right? And they then are met with, "You might be wrong. We might have been wrong all along." The instinct, 99 times out of 100, is to plow ahead and rationalize why the true perpetrator in Robert's case, why did he all of a sudden say Robert had nothing to do with it? "Oh, well, maybe he is making this up because he feels guilty that he implicated his friend who really wasn't his friend." I've ... In Clemente Aguirre's case, which we've talked about and your listeners know about, the true killer confessed. She confessed over and over again to friends, to neighbors, drunk, not drunk, to police. In denying him post-conviction relief ... Now this is a judge. The judge chalked it up as survivor's guilt. So in other words, whether it's the prosecutors, judges, they'll make an excuse to protect the prosecution because it's all about winning or losing.

Joe Rogan 1:20:46 Let's talk about that. What, what is that? Is that human nature? Is it like, uh, uh, do, do people just wanna confirm their initial suspicions and they rationalize all sorts of reasons why what they initially thought was right and this new evidence that shows that it's not right is wrong? Like, what, what is it? Is it they don't, they don't, just don't wanna be ... They don't wanna lose?

Josh Dubin 1:21:09 I think it's a fundamental flaw, um, that we have as human beings, that I share as a Taurus, I especially share it.

Joe Rogan 1:21:18 How dare you bring up astrology.

Josh Dubin 1:21:21 (laughs)

Robert Jones 1:21:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:21:22 Uh, but, but I, um, I'm stubborn but I think as I see this time and time again in sp- in watching juries deliberate, because I do mock trials and focus groups or speaking to people post-verdict, but you can apply it to politics- Anything.

Josh Dubin 1:21:37 To anything.

Joe Rogan 1:21:37 Anything.

Josh Dubin 1:21:38 I think a f- ... One fundamental flaw we have as mammals is our inability to be flexible in our reasoning.

Joe Rogan 1:21:46 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:21:46 And I think that once we make a decision about something, it's very, very difficult to get people to reconsider.

Joe Rogan 1:21:54 I see that in really intelligent people too and it's, makes me sad.

Josh Dubin 1:21:58 It's maddening.

Joe Rogan 1:21:59 Yeah.

Josh Dubin 1:21:59 It's maddening.

Joe Rogan 1:21:59 It drives me crazy.

Robert Jones 1:22:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:00 Because it's like you aren't ... The, the, the part of the problem I think with police, with prosecutors, with the, the whole legal system, is that it becomes a game. And I don't mean a game like it's a joke. I mean a game like you're trying to win.

Josh Dubin 1:22:16 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:22:17 And whenever someone is involved in something where they're trying to win, they do whatever the fuck they can. People cheat, they move golf balls, right? They, they do whatever the fuck they can. Don't look at Jamie.

Josh Dubin 1:22:28 (laughs)

Robert Jones 1:22:28 I watch people moving those fucking things.

Joe Rogan 1:22:30 Whenever I hear-

Josh Dubin 1:22:31 (laughs) I bet you do. They cheat.

Joe Rogan 1:22:32 Whenever I hear golf balls ...

Robert Jones 1:22:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22:33 Well, people cheat, man. They, they find ways to pretend that they didn't do something when they did it. They find ways to justify the things they did do. They find ways to p- pass the buck and put it on ... If, if they can score that W, right? And you see cops do it. They, they plant evidence on someone they think was probably guilty, but they don't have enough evidence on them. They find rationalizations. And it's because there's a game going on. It's a win or lose. And it becomes a real problem. And not, not only that, with a lot of cops, there's quotas. Like you literally have to arrest a certain amount of people.

Robert Jones 1:23:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:23:14 Which is insanity.

Robert Jones 1:23:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:23:15 Like what the fuck do they do if no one commits a crime? What do they do if no one speeds? If you have a quota where you have to arrest 100 people for speeding, what the fuck do you do? If everybody makes an agreement, we all get on Facebook and we say, "Hey. Let everybody drive the fucking speed limit for the next 60 days and let's crush the legal system." Because these cops have to, uh, they have to make a certain amount of pullovers. They have to pull a certain amount of people over and write a certain amount of tickets. They have quotas. If you don't meet those quotas, they get in trouble. So what the fuck kind of game is that?

Robert Jones 1:23:47 Right. I, I would say, uh, uh, a lot, a lot of that, a lot of ... Just like we have structural racism, right? And with, when I say structural racism, I mean like institutional, uh, uh, things that's set up through, uh, regulation rules and policies.

Joe Rogan 1:24:05 Like redlining.

Robert Jones 1:24:06 Right. Uh, and you just have like, uh, flawlessness in the variety of different systems. You got people that work for a company, they got a lot of flawlessness and they don't really l- they don't really understand that your employed in a system that, that, that treat people unfair, cause people harm, and you can't even see it. And some people can be a part of a system, or a part of a program, or part of an organization that, uh, have that win mentality, right? That win-win by all costs mentality, and they lose the empathy for people.

Joe Rogan 1:24:47 Right.

Robert Jones 1:24:48 And, and when people lose the empathy, when, you know, when we define those things and a lot of people don't like, uh, to hear, hear this sh- this type of shit. But when you lose your empathy for people-

Narrator 1:25:00 ... you become technically a sociopath.

Joe Rogan 1:25:02 That's a real problem with corporations. Th- that's like a thing that they say about corporations, that corporations technically, if you look at the actions, behavior of corporations, particularly ones that cause harm to the environment or to people, or sell products they know are dangerous and harmful and hide the evidence, that they're acting like sociopaths.

Narrator 1:25:20 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:25:20 And there's a term called the diffusion of responsibility. And diffusion of responsibility happens if you have like a large group of people. Like here's the, the, the ... The term applies to if you're standing around, there's 100 people in this group and you watch some guy beating the shit out of somebody. You don't step in, 'cause you feel like, "It's not my fault. It's not- I'm not responsible. There's so many people here." But if it's just you and one guy beating the shit out of someone, then you feel responsible because no one else is there to help.

Narrator 1:25:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:25:48 But it, the, the large number of people you would think would stop someone from doing something, like a corporation. Like there's so many people, how could this corporation rev- uh, how could they act in such an unethical way that they know is harmful to a community, polluting rivers, or harmful to, uh, the, the people that they're selling these products to? There's so many people, surely someone's gonna tell. But it's actually easier for them to get away with it, which is how pharmaceutical companies operate. It's easier for them to get away with it if it's an enormous amount of people because there is a diffusion of responsibility and there's an overall commitment to keep the profits going for the greater good of the corporation.

Narrator 1:26:24 And there's no accountability.

Joe Rogan 1:26:25 No accountability, exactly.

Josh Dubin 1:26:26 Well, and you, we've stumbled on something very magical here in this moment. I'll tell you why. By, it's no different with a corporation than it is with prosecutors and detectives, and I'm gonna tell you why. My theory at least. My humble perspective on this is that when you're a prosecutor or a corporation, a case, um, or a person, whether they're taking a drug or buying your product, is just uh, uh, a number on a sheet and a name on a she- on, on, in a spreadsheet or in a program. And what they lack, and w- when talking about lack of empathy, is that they lack the ability, partly because of how they're positioned, to be a- positioned practically, in other words, to be able to sit down with the d- with the person accused and, and hear from them. They're in a position where they, they are told they have to win or in a corporation's, uh, in the case of a corporation, make money and increase profitability, but I think it's the same flavor, which is that the lack of human interaction and being able to understand with prosecutors the human toll that is left in the wake of these prosecutions, I cannot tell you, Joe, how many former state prosecutors, federal prosecutors, federal judges who are now criminal defense attorneys have moments where they break down emotionally and, and go through years of regret-

Narrator 1:28:02 (gasps)

Josh Dubin 1:28:02 ... about how callous they were, um, and how, how much they lack sensitivity. And some of them, and realize sort of, I don't know if it's so much the error of their ways, but you know, I know, um ... And he doesn't fall into any of those category. I know a former federal judge, I don't even want to name him, who is doing, who is a former federal judge, who was a former prosecutor, I've become very, very close with him in New York. And he is doing unbelievable things now, um, through a project where he is trying to get clemency for people that were disproportionately sentenced. And he is moving mountains to do it. And I think some of it is because he feels a sense of obligation, because in some instances, he was forced to sentence people because of sentencing guidelines disproportionately. I think some of, some of it is a change in perspective, and if we could figure out a way, like I have a theory that it's lack of training, it's the lack of, you know, a, a system whereby prosecutors can really sit down with a criminal defendant, the accused, and their attorneys and get to know them and understand how damaging this all is.

Narrator 1:29:14 Mm.

Josh Dubin 1:29:15 Because just getting accused of a crime, even if you get acquitted, it's life-ruining.

Narrator 1:29:20 Mm-hmm.

Josh Dubin 1:29:21 Now, I've seen it happen in white-collar crimes, certainly in crimes where you're, you know, accused of some violent offense. So I think we've, you've put your finger on something remarkably relevant and if, if we could somehow get across to people in law enforcement, prosecutors ... I have someone that's an expert in a, in a civil rights case right now who was uh, a former warden at a prison in Florida and ... at a place where they used to execute people, and he's come to the other side and, and could- cannot believe that he was ever, you know, in a position where he was taking lives and realizes how many mistakes are