Joe Rogan Experience #1718 - Dr. Sanjay Gupta

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:01

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) What's up?

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      How are you?

   3. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:13

      I am, uh, delighted to be here, Joe. Thanks for having me.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      I'm delighted to have you. Thanks for reaching out, man.

   5. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:17

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      It's so nice to talk to you. It's been nice to get to know you.

   7. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:20

      You too, you too. Thanks.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Are you enjoying Texas?

   9. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:23

      Yeah. I ... You know, it's funny. I hadn't been to Austin in some time, and it's, it's changed in a, in a, in a really good way. I was staying at a hotel downtown, walking around. Tons of cool restaurants. And I guess Austin City Limits has their little stage that's downtown.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   11. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:39

       You know? There was a big thing going on there last night, and it was great.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah, they've recovered. It, it's, uh ... A few months ago, it was pretty rough with the tents and all the homelessness stuff, but they moved those folks into hotels and they've, uh, purchased some hotels.

   13. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta0:54

       Have they done that? Is that-

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       Yeah, they've done ... The mayor's done a good job of trying to, like, clean up the situation. It's ... All over the country, anywhere you go, any big city, you have this fairly unique situation, uh, in terms of, like, modern times of people-

   15. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:11

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       ... camping on the street.

   17. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       I mean, I don't remember that as a child. Do you remember ... When did you remember first seeing tents?

   19. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:20

       I mean, you know, I grew, I grew up in small towns in the Midwest.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       Yeah.

   21. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:24

       And I was never living ... I never lived in big cities. I think I saw it sometimes when I, when I visited those cities, maybe, when I was a kid, but it wasn't a thing.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       It was very rare.

   23. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:33

       It was very rare, for sure.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Yeah.

   25. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:35

       I think maybe California, to be honest, was the first time I really saw it, you know?

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       I ju- ... I was just back in LA a couple of weeks ago and it's overrun. It's crazy. It's just ... I don't know how they ever fix it.

   27. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:46

       Are you, uh, are you happy with your move?

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       I love it here.

   29. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:49

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, he was, he…

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      print things and publish things that aren't true, that the echoes of that, as I said, could last for, you know, 90, 100 years.

   2. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:07

      Well, he was, he was the press, right? (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      He was the press, yeah.

   4. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:10

      I mean, if the press is owned by somebody who is, who is sort of, uh, using this for their own personal gains, I think obviously that's a, it's a huge problem.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:18

      Yeah, especially in the days before the internet, right?

   6. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:20

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Um, have you had any experiences on marijuana?

   8. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:24

      I h- I've tried it, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      Really?

   10. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:26

       I have. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:26

       When? Recently?

   12. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:27

       Not too recently. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:29

       (laughs) Have you... Do you have to be careful saying this?

   14. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:31

       No, I don't, I don't care. But I-

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:33

       You've had a drink before, right?

   16. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:34

       I've had a drink before.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:35

       Oh, okay. Crazy.

   18. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:36

       Yeah. I, um, I... Yeah. I, I c- I could see the appeal of it. I really could. Um, I think I, uh, I... (laughs) I even kept a little log of my experience. I was like-

   19. JRJoe Rogan15:49

       Oh, really?

   20. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:49

       I, I just was curious, like, "What am I gonna write?" And some of the stuff that I wrote was pretty... I thought pretty brilliant, actually. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       (laughs)

   22. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta15:56

       Um, but I will say this. It did make me... And I don't know if it's my own personal thing, like I'm bringing too much baggage to it. I did get the sense of paranoia that people often talk about, and I did not find that very comfortable.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Yeah. It's supposed to be uncomfortable, I think. I think s- you're supposed to learn something from that.

   24. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta16:12

       Is that, is that right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Yeah, I think so.

   26. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta16:14

       I mean, I thought it was just supposed to be, like, fun and r- and, like-

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Eh, it can be.

   28. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta16:17

       ... anxiety-relieving.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:18

       It can be that too. But the, uh... I think the uncomfortable feeling that you get from the paranoia, when it, uh, when it goes away, you're left with, uh, an understanding of maybe what are these things that you have issues with. And maybe if you could shore up those aspects of your life, you, uh, wouldn't have maybe these underlying feelings that you're suppressing and ignoring for the most part until you get high. I think you'd like to get your life to a place where when you get really high, you don't feel bad.

   30. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta16:50

       That would be... I think that, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. If I could get to that pla- if I've dealt with some of these things in my own-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta30:00

      itself was like, "I don't think I could do that, go back to work." I mean, he was grieving still.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      Yeah.

   3. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta30:04

      And his daughter died and they weren't vaccinated. Now, they don't... they're not following the news reports. They're not... I mean, he's, they're working. They, they got their lives and it's not something that they, uh, like, "This is the hill I'm gonna die on as far as vaccines." Uh, they're not those people.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:18

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta30:19

      They're just living their lives. But she says to him before she goes on the ventilator, "Please get vaccinated." And, and then she dies. And, and so he's now telling me that he wants to get vaccinated, but he's worried about these clots.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta30:31

      He's been calling his doctor's office. He hasn't gotten a call back yet, and I'm the first person he has seen since this all happened, the first doctor he's seen. And so he asks me and I tell him and, you, you know, uh, am I gonna get pissed off at the anti-vaxxers after spending time with that guy? No, I'm not. Because there are some who are, going back to the same thing, some who are just starting... want to start shit. They're just trying to sow chaos and doubt and... for no good reason. Chaos is the, the metric, as you've talked about on your podcast. But this guy, he wa- he wants to do it. He understands the consequences of not. He just watched what happened to his daughter. He's worried about a stent in his leg. There's all these things and we've got to communicate that to people. If we're gonna ask the country to do something, if you're gonna ask the country to get vaxxed, if you're gonna ask the country to get boosters, which is the most recent thing, you've got to explain it well. If you're gonna ask kids to get vaccinated, why?... why are you asking kids? 'Cause everyone says, "Well, aren't they f- far less likely to, to get sick and, and all that?" Yes. But here's why they should get vaccinated. I mean-

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:36

      Why do you think kids should get vaccinated?

   9. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:38

      Well, I think, I think there's a few reasons. First of all, they can't-

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:40

       Young children?

   11. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:42

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:42

       Like how old?

   13. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:44

       You know, I mean, I think the, the, we'll probably see a vaccine authorized for 5 to 11-year-olds.

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:48

       Do we have real studies on the impact of young children and COVID?

   15. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:52

       In terms of what it, what COVID does-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:53

       Yeah.

   17. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:53

       ... to their bodies?

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:55

       Yeah.

   19. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:55

       Uh, we, we know that they're far less likely to get sick.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:59

       Right.

   21. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta31:59

       That's for sure. Uh-

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       Far less likely to be hospitalized.

   23. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta32:02

       Far less likely, yes.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       Far less likely to die.

   25. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta32:03

       Yep.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:04

       And far less likely to die from COVID than even from the flu, correct?

   27. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta32:07

       That could be. You know, I mean, flu is, is a concern for sure. 60,000-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:11

       Yeah.

   29. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta32:11

       ... people die of flu every year.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:13

       But it's more dangerous for children than COVID is, correct?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   You say, "But they."…

   1. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:00

      wanes, which probably means you're more likely to get infected. So, that's, that's probably, that's probably the case. So, it's not indefinite, and I think that's part of the reason they're recommending boosters for some people. But-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      You say, "But they." Who is they? Because the FDA just declined the recommendation of boosters, and the two top people resigned-

   3. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:18

      Well-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      ... because they didn't think that the science was there to recommend boosters, right?

   5. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:22

      They, they, they recommend it for people over 65, people who ha- who are, have vulnerable, you know, because of preexisting conditions, things like, people who they think will get quite sick if they were to get a breakthrough infection. If, so look at it this way, if you look at the number of people hospitalized with COVID in the country, 95% of them are unvaccinated. So, who are the 5%-

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:42

      Is that real?

   7. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:43

      That's, that, you know, it's different in different places, but 90% plus in most places.

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:46

      We were just discussing that, and I mean, that was a, there was a study that was out of England, and then there was another one out of Israel where a large percentage of them-

   9. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:55

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:55

       ... the great, great number of them.

   11. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta45:57

       In Israel, that's right. And, and, and that's, it's really interesting, but you gotta remember something, though, Joe, is that once you start getting the vast majority of people vaccinated in a society, then the, the total number of people who show up in the hospital with COVID are likely to be vaccinated.

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       Right, because a greater percentage of the people-

   13. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta46:13

       It's a much smaller number.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:14

       ... are vaccinated, yeah.

   15. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta46:15

       It's a much smaller absolute number, but, like, if you have a lot of people who are showing up in the hospital, over 100,000 at one point, you know, in this country that are in the hospital with COVID, 90% plus were unvaccinated. Now, once we get to a higher vaccination level or a higher immunity level, the ratio will flip just because more people will be vaccinated.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       Right, 'cause we have a greater percentage of people vaccinated.

   17. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta46:35

       We have a greater percentage. But I think the question they were asking as part of this booster discussion is who are the 5% that are s- that are vaccinated and still get sick enough to end up in the hospital? And what they found was that they tended to be older, they tended to be people with certain preexisting conditions. They had already made a determination that people who were immune-compromised, uh, should, should get a booster shot. So, there, there was all these various things. They did not do, you're right, a- a- a across-the-board recommendation for everyone to get boosters. They don't think the data is there to sort of support that yet. They think the vaccines do work pretty well for people who aren't vulnerable for these reasons.

   18. JRJoe Rogan47:12

       And then the two people resigned?

   19. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:14

       Two people resigned because I think-

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:15

       Because they felt that they were being pressured to... Why did they resign?

   21. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:20

       I, I-

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       They resigned over the boosters, correct?

   23. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:22

       Yeah, I, yeah. I think you can safely say that, because-

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:25

       That seems like a strange situation, right?

   25. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:26

       Well, what happened was-

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:27

       In the middle of a pandemic for someone who is-

   27. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:29

       It's not good.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       Not good.

   29. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta47:31

       It's not good. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:31

       So, what, w- what was your assessment of that?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:59

   But if there is…

   1. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:00

      reason for children not to get vaccinated.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:02

      But if there is a statis- if, if there's a study that shows that young boys in particular are more likely to have an adverse reaction to the vaccine than they are to catching COVID, why would you-

   3. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:16

      Is there a study that shows that?

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      Yes. Let's find it. Find that study where it says, uh, young boys more likely to have an adverse reaction to the vaccine than to COVID.

   5. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:25

      I'm-

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

      We were just talking about it. Um-

   7. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:26

      I mean, the myocarditis data-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:28

      Yeah.

   9. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:28

      ... I know which is what a lot of people have focused on, you know, it was about, it was about 16 times higher with the disease than with the vaccine.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:36

       But-

   11. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:36

       And I, and I don't know what other adverse-

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       We'll try to, we'll try to find this.

   13. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:38

       Okay, all right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:39

       But my point is, the same attitude that you have about not being worried if you catch it because you're vaccinated, a lot of people have that not being worried if they catch it because they're young and healthy.

   15. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:00:50

       (inhales deeply) Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

       Here it is. "Boys more at risk from Pfizer jabs side effect than COVID, study suggests. US researchers say teenagers more likely to get vaccine-related myocarditis than end up in the hospital with COVID."

   17. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:01:03

       So, uh ...

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       If you have a child and you read this, don't you think that you would be hesitant to vaccinate a child that would most likely cruise through COVID with no issues, par- specifically if they're healthy boys?

   19. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:01:20

       Well, th- th- th- I think yes. So, I think you gotta, you do have to compare apples to apples a little bit here. So I think what this is saying, Joe, is ... So if you just said, if you're ... Here, here's the question: What is your likelihood of myocarditis from vaccine versus myocarditis from the disease?

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       It says here-... the children with, uh, boys aged 12 to 15 with no underlying medical conditions are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in the hospital with COVID over a four-month period.

   21. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:01:50

       Right. Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

       That's-

   23. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:01:52

       Well-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:52

       That would make me very concerned.

   25. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:01:53

       A lot of the kids who got myocarditis after the vaccine did not end up in the hospital. That's part of the thing. They could be treated as an outpatient, they got steroids, they did not need to be hospitalized-

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:01

       But we don't have any idea how that's gonna affect them long term, correct?

   27. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:02:05

       That, that, that is true. That will, uh, I think when, when you raise that point, that's always going to be a fair point, because until we have the-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:10

       But when you're dealing with four to six times...

   29. SGDr. Sanjay Gupta1:02:12

       Th- th- this is, this, the absolute risk versus the relative risk is, it's a real thing. But I think if the question you're saying is, look, I'm worried about myocarditis, period. How likely is my child to get myocarditis from the vaccine versus from COVID?

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:28

       Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 3:08:39