EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,138 words- 0:00 – 6:33
Two Kansas exonerations and why public pressure works
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello, Joshua.
- JDJosh Dubin
Hello, Joseph. How are you, man?
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you, man.
- JDJosh Dubin
I never called you Joseph.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's okay, I never called you Joshua. I think I did like five minutes ago.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, that's all right. My mom and my wife call me Joshua.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, well, I'm sorry. (laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
That's all right. (laughs) Depends on the context.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, first of all, uh, we should, uh, we should talk about the people that got off because of the last podcast we did, because that's an amazing thing. So let's talk about that, because- because of you and your work, there's two men out there that would still be in jail. Because of you talking about it and you putting the heat on whoever was responsible-
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... now these two guys are free.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and I- you know, it's hard to determine with any certainty the various factors that go into an exoneration or, you know, prosecutors dropping charges. Uh, but there are two immovable truths here. Two young Black men are- have a new lease on life and have had horrific nightmares end. And I know that this platform and this show not only helped that, but were a driving force behind it. And I know it not just based on what I think. I know it based on empirical evidence, because there was a time when I was asked to come to Lawrence, Kansas, and sit at the Lawrence Police Department on the case against Rontores Washington so that the Lawrence Police Department could tell me, "Here's the evidence we have against your client." And before the meeting started, the district attorney walked in the room, and instead of saying hello to me, she said, "Welcome to the armpit."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
Now, that was a direct reference to something I said on this podcast, uh, that I quickly, right after saying it, caught myself and corrected myself, because the context in which I was saying it... And I- and I said that- that was a horrible way to put it or whatever I said, but the context in which I was saying it was, in my mind, that if you are a- a Black man or woman caught in the criminal justice system in Lawrence, Kansas, that is the armpit. So, I knew then and there that she was paying attention, and not just paying attention, paying attention to this podcast, and sh- she knew full well that I had the cavalry behind me. Now, what- how much that factored into the story I'll tell later about how those charges against Rontores Washington were dropped and what happened to Albert Wilson, who was the same prosecutor's office, um, we'll never know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't there an also an argument for you expressing the facts of the case outside of a courtroom setting where they're trying to win? Right? There- isn't there a problem with prosecutors and defendants and this- this system that's set up- that's set up like it's a game? And I don't mean it's a game like it's trivial. I mean it's a game like people are trying to win.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, yeah, there's a part of that. But I- I think that in- in recognizing, and you and I have spoken about this, in recognizing that sort of fault that exists amongst us as mammals, as human beings, uh, that is especially so when you're talking about prosecutors, in my opinion, that have this tunnel vision that we'll talk about. I think you just have to recognize that pressure breaks pipes in these cases.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
If you think about, um, what's going on with Pervis Payne right now, what's going on with Julius Jones, with Rodney Reed, I mean, Pervis Payne is gonna get out in five years. Julius Jones, Rodney Reed is facing a new trial. Those results were brought to bear by pressure, public pressure. So, one immovable truth, r- I referred to two before, but one sort of overarching, um, known is that this works. And it's because... I want to tell you the spirit in which I'm here today. And, you know, I am here not on behalf of the Innocence Project. I don't speak for them even though I'm the ambassador advisor. I, um, there are other organizations that I'm involved with that pay attention to news cycles and media. I'm here as Josh Dubin the human being that is doing my part. And it's not for me to judge whether it's small or large. Doing my part to help in whatever way I can, whether it's a drop in the bucket, a- a grain of sand, or something more, and that's for someone else to judge, to help free people that are wrongfully incarcerated, period, full stop. Y- this show has been, um, a critical part of telling these stories and getting that out there. I'm not here to have a debate about people's perception of things other people say or pass judgment or anything like that. That's not my role, and that's not what I'm here for.And I'm -- I think that we need to have a discussion about race in our -- in the criminal injustice system. And I know you're -- I know enough about you to know your heart, and that we're gonna have that today. And that is the spirit in which I'm here. And I know the direct results because two young Black men, um, were exonerated as a result, at least in part because of the show.
- 6:33 – 8:11
The scale of wrongful-incarceration work and building capacity
- JRJoe Rogan
How-how many cases are you dealing with, like concurrently? How many cases do you have on file, like right now, where you have to go over the details of someone who may be innocent?
- JDJosh Dubin
It -- the, the answer to it is, thousands. I get mail every day from jails all across the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we were talking about this earlier, about, uh, how much your business has exploded because of these kind of conversations. What -- what do you -- how do you manage that?
- JDJosh Dubin
Okay. So, the Innocence Project, which I am -- again, I can't speak on behalf of them. But what the Innocence-
- JRJoe Rogan
You work with them?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes. I'm the ambassador advisor to the Innocence Project, which makes me sort of, you know, somebody that -- uh, it's a unique role because I have done so much pro bono work and awareness raising that there was a decision to give me that title. They have, uh, a remarkable, uh, mail r- m- m- you know, mail room center that processes mail from prisoners from across the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
True.
- JDJosh Dubin
Then there is a network called the Innocence Network, which are franchisees, if you will. There's the Midwest Innocence Project, who was my co-counsel in the Ron Torres Washington case. Um, and there are -- you know, there's one in New Orleans. They're all over the country, that operate on their own. And they are constantly getting mail. And then there are just people like myself, Jason Flom, that are constantly getting mail. And it's so
- 8:11 – 9:40
Finding unlikely allies: Ike Perlmutter funds a new reform center
- JDJosh Dubin
much to keep up with, that you need to be able to have a network of resources. So, I have decided, um, to take on a role at Cardozo Law School, which is where the Innocence Project started as a field, what they call a field clinic of law students over 25 years ago, founded by Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld. I was offered the role of becoming, um, the executive director of a new program called the Redemption Project. And look, again, this is why not only this show, but being able to find common ground with people we disagree with is so critical in this process. The founder -- or excuse me, the chairman of Marvel, Ike Perlmutter and his wife, it's gonna be called the Perlmutter Center. We don't know-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's the chairman of Marvel Comics?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes, Marvel Entertainment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
And he's a right, a right-leaning Republican-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
... that was friends with President Trump. And we otherwise wouldn't have much to agree on, but we found common ground in this. And, and that is, um, a role that I'm gonna be taking on, where we're gonna be focusing, and it's gonna start in the fall. Now, I'm gonna have more resources to help more people because, um, Ike Perlmutter and his wife, Laurie, have agreed to fund it for 10 years.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did they get involved? Like, what, what is his interest in criminal justice?
- 9:40 – 18:57
A surreal DNA frame-up leads to legal reform in Florida
- JDJosh Dubin
It's the craziest thing. It's like a, uh, an episode of ... I can't talk too much about it 'cause the case is still pending. Um, but it -- there -- what is out there publicly, I can talk about. It's like an episode of, of like Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm gone way off the rails. His DNA, his wife's DNA was stolen. There was a condo dispute about the tennis pro that descended into chaos.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
It started as this crazy civil case, where he was accused of, you know, spreading misin- ... There was one faction of people that want the tennis pro removed. The tennis pro was very good friends with him, right? And the -- and he cared about this woman. She was a single mother. He's a very philanthropic guy when no one's looking. He just not -- he, he w- he went to Iron Man in a disguise because he doesn't want people to know who he is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Huh.
- JDJosh Dubin
He's just a very private guy. So, there was this faction in this condo community that wanted the tennis pro removed because she was selling real estate out of the p- tennis pro office, and this faction wanted her to partner up with another couple that sold real estate. It was crazy. It was a condo dispute at -- right out of Boca Del Vista in a Seinfeld episode. So, he took the opposing side and said, "You're not removing her." And in any event, about a year later, this hate mail against the people that wanted her removed, this one individual, starts to arrive in the community. And it's accusing him of all sorts of awful shit, accusing this other man of being a child molester and a murderer and all kinds of craziness. And there's Jewish stars on it in like Hebrew slang, all misspelled. So, this guy gets in his mind that Ike Perlmutter is behind it, and they have Ike and his wife subpoenaed as third-party witnesses in connection with the tennis center lawsuit, subpoenaed to sit at a deposition. And they framed him and his wife, and they stole her DNA from a, a -- they gave her water to drink. And they falsely claimed, and it was published in The New York Times that her DNA matched the hate mail.
- JRJoe Rogan
(gasps)
- JDJosh Dubin
So, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
They set her up from-
- JDJosh Dubin
A- and-
- JRJoe Rogan
... giving her a glass of water?
- JDJosh Dubin
A- a- and him. They gave him this paper to touch that apparently to get his epithelial skin cells, phony exhibits.
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- JDJosh Dubin
So the famed criminal defense lawyer, Roy Black-... brought me into the case just to really help with trial strategy, wh- which is allegedly my forte, and then it d- it descended into DNA, and I have some expertise in that from my work at the Innocence Project, because of all the cases that we do at the Innocence Project are using biological evidence to get people off. So, when Roy had sort of hit his limit on what he knew about DNA, he said, "Now I need more from you, and will you join the case?" So I figured out how they had set her up, I figured out that it wasn't her DNA, and the case ultimately got dismissed. The only thing that exists now is his case against the insurance company for setting him up, 'cause the, the allegations and the lawsuit now, he's suing Chubb, 'cause it was a Chubb lawyer that engineered this.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, they know ... Did, did they have the actual correspondence-
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh. Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... like the actual evidence where someone said, "We're gonna get his DNA."
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes, and it's all a matter of public record.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jesus Christ.
- JDJosh Dubin
And one of the guys was a Chubb attorney. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well that, that should land you in jail for a long fucking time.
- JDJosh Dubin
One of the things we were able to do is I, I testified before the Florida House Judiciary Committee and used this case as an example in the, the testimony is out there publicly, to change the law in Florida, citing this case, from a misdemeanor to a felony, and we were able to get that done.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, i- it is possible that someone could do something like that, where they could set you up for a crime and steal your DNA, and that would be a misdemeanor in some cases?
- JDJosh Dubin
I- not anymore. Not in Florida.
- JRJoe Rogan
Not in Florida.
- JDJosh Dubin
But they didn't prosecute this man for it.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- JDJosh Dubin
And ... No, they did not prosecute him for it. Palm Beach did not, decided not to prosecute him. But to answer your question, so the way ... oh, the way Ike Perlmutter, a strange bedfellow, if you will, with me in criminal justice reform, and his wife got interested, is he is a very hands-on guy. And, "Why aren't you paying attention to my case?" Paying ... And it, it was, this was five years ago, and I said, "There's no trial date, and by the way, I have a man sitting on death row in Florida, and I became lead trial counsel for him, and, you know, h- I'm gonna be busy with that," and it was the Clemente Aguirre case. So Ike started to pay attention to the case in the media, 'cause it was in the Orlando Sentinel every day, and I guess the Palm Beach Post has some affiliate ... He started to read the media attention. So, I ended up ... And the story about Clemente Aguirre's been told so many times, but I ended up getting ... My phone's off. I ended up getting him, um, exonerated with a, with a village of people. I don't want to make it like it was just me. And the day that I walked him out, Ike had called me so many times that I thought there was an emergency. And he said, "Can you please come to Palm Beach before you leave Florida?" And I said, "Sure." So I, I drove down to Palm Beach a couple of days later, and he sat me down and, you know, he's a very stoic, older Israeli man. And he had a tear in his eye, and he said, "I realized that if I ..." And his case was still very much alive. We hadn't figured out the DNA. He said, "By watching what just happened with this man in Orlando, I realize that if I didn't have the resources, and, you know, the, the means by which to have you and Roy Black, that I might have ended up like him." And I'm like, "Well, you wouldn't have ended up on death row," but ... (laughs) It, it was like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
... his moment of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Clarity.
- 18:57 – 24:35
No-knock warrants and Amir Locke: policing as a human-rights issue
- JDJosh Dubin
And the m- the more difficult thing to do is take a step back and hover above the moment and think about it this way, like, "What, what's on my mind right now?" And if people can't get this, they just can't get it, as far as I'm concerned. This situation with this young man, Amir Locke, who was just executed in Minneapolis by officer, in my opinion, I guess you always have to say that these days, who-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know this case.
- JDJosh Dubin
Okay. So, this is, this, this is the best, um, example, current example of why this is not a Democrat or a Republican issue. It is a human rights issue. Amir Locke is a young Black man in his early 20s who would ... Lives in Minneapolis. Carjackings in cities are on, are in the news cycle quite a bit lately. You hear about them in L.A., you hear about them all over the place, right? And in Minneapolis. He goes out, no criminal record, and legally buys a gun. Why? Because he's a DoorDash driver, so it's obviously a concern to him. He's sleeping at a friend's house. This happened just last week. He's sleeping at a friend's house and either four or five police officers execute what's referred to as a no-knock warrant, okay? Within three or four seconds, apparently, he is sleeping. Five seconds later, by second number nine, he's dead. Now, when the doors blow open and five cops come in, you don't know who they are at first, and you go to reach for a gun that you legally have, and you get blown away, that is a problem. And here's the problem. I want to go back to this no-knock warrant, but this is not ... This is an epidemic happening mostly to people of color, to Black men and women. And they're not all no-knock situations, but it, but Breonna Taylor was a no-knock warrant situation. Um, you know, Antwon-
- JRJoe Rogan
And e- wasn't it a no-knock situation about marijuana as well?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes, yes. Um, Botham, Botham Jean, um, was not a no-knock situation, but it was the same type of thing, right? Here in Texas where w- this female, white female officer said ... He's eating ice cream in his own place, and she comes in and thinks she's in the wrong apartment and blows him away. Um, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, uh, Fontability, Philando Castile, Daunte Wright. The list goes on and on. It sickens me. And I'll tell you something, you know, these are all men and women of color getting blown away and executed. Now, look, some of these people, their families are dear friends of mine. Botham Jean's sister is a dear friend of mine. So I see the, uh, her name is Alisa Finley, and she's become an amazing voice and has somehow summoned the strength to be an activist. Um, Antwon Rose's mom, Michelle Kennedy as well. And these are people that, to me, mean something. I cry with them. I try to console them. I try to help their causes. But let's take a, like, a step back and look what these no-knock raids are about. And by the way, the difference between a k- a knock raid and a no-knock raid is the difference between a few seconds. So, let's forget about Democrats and Republicans. No-knock raids were born out of the 1980s, um, Just Say No, Nancy Reagan war on drugs campaign. And the, and the rationale behind it, not that she was responsible for the legislation or, or the phenomenon, but the rationale behind it from law enforcement's standpoint was we want to surprise drug dealers and people involved, involved in narcotics trafficking, and we want to prevent them from being able to grab a gun or from destroying evidence.
- JRJoe Rogan
And d- so they have warrants, no-knock warrants?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, you would go in front of a judge, and you would say, "This is probable cause. This person's selling drugs, and they have guns. And we want a no-knock warrant." It's a specific type of warrant.
- JDJosh Dubin
Correct, correct. So, that's exactly right. And so, it was born out of the 1980s, quote-unquote, war on drugs. So, in the wake of the devastation that it's caused, specifically to people of color, because there is some, whether you call it institutional racism, whether you call it ... Whatever it is, we're just not living in reality if we are not, if we are not recognizing the fact that there are many white, uh, white folks that see someone of color and think danger, and typically African Americans. Um, they think danger. They think there's a problem. They, they have all of these conscious and unconscious biases. There- this is not a coincidence that all of these people that are being killed in these situations, whether it's a no-knock warrant, knock warrant, a Black person running from police. So, if you get back to these no-knock warrants-You know, the failure is not on the
- 24:35 – 39:00
Why the George Floyd Policing Act failed and how politics derails reform
- JDJosh Dubin
part of Republicans or Democrats, it's on the part of all of them as human beings and politicians. The George Floyd Policing Act, for which Joe Biden and Kamala Harris championed, and I think Tim Scott, who is the only African American Republican, really got behind. You know, it ultimately failed. Um, and that failure is not a Democratic failure or a Republican failure, it's a failure of all of us.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was in it?
- JDJosh Dubin
It wa- there were many police reforms in it, but critical to this conversation was what the, was the George Floyd Policing Act sought to do away with no-knock warrants by telling s- s- municipalities, "We are gonna cut off your access to state and federal funds unless and until you stop this practice."
- JRJoe Rogan
So when a- an act like this is proposed, how does it get reviewed, and what, what makes it get denied?
- JDJosh Dubin
So, it passed the House, because the vote was l- largely on party lines, and then it didn't pass the Senate because they could not get enough votes for it. So what ends up happening is that when you involve... This is my theory. Anytime you involve human beings in any endeavor, it gets messy, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
Egos, power plays, um, insecurities, all this messy stew of emotions comes into it. Am I pleasing my constituents?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
Am I gonna anger police unions? Is it going too far in this area? So it, it encompassed many things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did it come close?
- JDJosh Dubin
It w- no. It was s- t- 12 or f- or, or 14 votes shy. So the problem is, is that, you know, it passes the House, it fails in the Senate, and the votes were largely along party lines. And, you know, Democrats are quick to say, "Oh, but the Republicans didn't do it." And Republicans are quick to say, "Well, Democrats put all this oth- other stuff into it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they?
- JDJosh Dubin
And, y-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they add things to the act?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, of course. It covered other things, but it takes people on both sides to say, "Well, where can we find common ground?" Because when I think of Washington, and I think of politicians, and I think of Capitol Hill, and legisla- any of those words, I get a, a fucking headache right here without even knowing what the conversation's gonna be about.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just 'cause it's such a quagmire?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, it just conjures up-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
It conjures up a, a, a visceral response in me of people that just cannot figure out a way to sit across the table or at the table, or next to each other and figure shit out. And I don't know, you know, it's like, I guess a fair question would be like, "All right, Duban, if it's that easy, why don't you go run for office and solve it?" I'm not, you know, I don't have the answers, I just know what I see, and I know that, that you n- we all need to step away from our, um, what we think our allegiance is in this two-party system, because I'm, I'm ready to just like register non-declared or independent, you know? And I'll, I'll, you know, everybody is so like, "You don't ask people about their age, you don't ask them who they voted for." You know, I voted for Joe Jorgensen.
- JRJoe Rogan
As did I.
- JDJosh Dubin
Because I just feel like that was my way of saying-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JDJosh Dubin
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Saying, "No, this is a nonsense situation." But do you think that in our lifetimes we're ever gonna see like a legitimate third party candidate? Because it seems like there's no pe- pe- at least the general consensus in this country is that anyone who's independent is not serious, is not a serious person for president. There's no one who's been independent where it stands out since Ron Paul. Or excuse me-
- JDJosh Dubin
Or Ros- Ross Perot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ross Perot, I meant.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's who I meant actually, sorry.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But when he was running, he was in a very unique situation where he had massive amounts of resources. And so he could actually buy, this is pre-internet, he bought entire half-hour blocks on network television to explain why you're getting fucked. Do you remember that?
- 39:00 – 44:08
Wrongful conviction statistics and the Kansas case details behind the wins
- JDJosh Dubin
But I could tell you in those cases that... You know, Ron Torres Washington was accused of ho- of a, a horrific murder that he did not commit and... He was good for it because he was "the Black guy" because someone testified that there was a Black guy in the parking lot downstairs. And the whole case was built on... There was stunning evidence that the, the husband of this woman that was butchered did it and there was her blood on his clothing. There was... I've talked about it. H- his hair in her dead hand. The police knew that she had been beaten by him and was afraid of him and had told people, "If anything happens to me, he did it." Ron Torres Washington was threatened by this man that committed these murders with a knife days before this happened or a week before, got a problem, and the entire case was built on what I now know was a, a problematic timeline of... And the police suspected the victim's husband of doing it and they had this timeline that they constructed through cellphone records and, and the, the husband got into an argument with the victim, a heated argument in which there was pushing and shoving and witnesses, and she ends up murdered an hour later. And they based not charging him, but charging Ron Torres Washington on this, the husband's cellphone traveling down a highway. The guy takes a picture of himself in a r- rest stop bathroom, takes a selfie of himself because that's just a natural thing anybody does. "I'm taking a piss, let me just take a selfie." It was clearly done to try to conjure up an alibi. And they based ruining a young man's life. He sat in pre-trial detention for six years, which is another issue in and of itself, before he saw a trial. He ended up getting tried. There was a hung jury and they're gonna retry him again, right? Based on this cellphone timeline-
- JRJoe Rogan
They're still gonna r- they're gonna retry him now?
- JDJosh Dubin
No. No, no, no, no. They were.
- JRJoe Rogan
They were?
- JDJosh Dubin
So, I went and listened to this presentation, the details of which are I'm not allowed to talk about, and I got one of the best cellphone experts in the world that taught the state's expert this theory and he said, "He's got it wrong. He's got it wrong." There was evidence that they should've caught that that husband stopped on that freeway and headed back in the other direction, and you could see it from the way the cellphone towers are pinging. And I figured it out with him, with his help, that he had plenty of time to go back and commit the crime. And so I had the Midwest Innocence Project as my co-counsel. I had been discussing the case and getting... And, and there was a lot of activism, um, that, that this show and other people that got behind it as a result of this show, it started to generate that pressure. So-And then, uh, the Albert Wilson case, which you know about, which is this young Black m- man that was at, uh, KU and gets accused of, um, you know, sexual assault of a white girl, who I believe strongly in his innocence. I had already won him, um, a new trial based on ineffective assistance of counsel. So, I had staring down ... My 2022 is going to be retrying both of their cases because Albert was offered a deal which would have been no jail and he wouldn't take it because he said, "I'm not confessing to something I didn't do." And Ron Torres was facing a- a retrial as well. So I had been in discourse with the DA's office and, you know, I think that they finally realized th- the problems, um, with these cases. And they will never come out and say, "These two men are innocent and we fucked up here." She was a new DA and I give her enough credit to do what she finally did. It- it didn't feel good along the way because I was not treated very well, but this wasn't about me. She would alternatingly be kind to me and understanding, and then she would also walk into a room and say, "Welcome to the armpit." (laughs) You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 44:08 – 49:12
Ripple effects: turning listeners into advocates, lawyers, and resources
- JDJosh Dubin
There was a lot of passive-aggressive stuff. But I know it was an indication to me like, "Aha, this works." And the ripple effect of it is- is such that ... So, here's one for you. I try very hard to keep up, and I'm not great at it, with Instagram Messenger, or the messages I'm getting on Instagram that come as a result of being on the podcast. There's one guy, and I'm- I can go months without looking at it, but there's one guy that reached out to both me and Jason Flom. His name is Jordan Grossinger and he works at a big firm called Greenberg Traurig. (sniffs) And he had never done this kind of work before, but was, like, r- r- very relentless in pursuing, "I really want to help. I really want to help." And, you know, he liter- he just took on a case in California. Um, I'm trying to remember the case. The Pierre Rushing case, and is throwing the full resources of his firm behind the case. And, you know, he called me. He was hiking with Jason Flom in LA and he's like, "This is amazing the way this works. Look at the ripple effect of what you're doing." So there are more people to save and I just think that it takes ... There's a lot of- of, "What can I do to help?" Whatever you're doing, keep doing it, whether it's writing letters, serving on juries, and we'll talk about that, but s- not trying to get out of it, um, because there is- there is a- a movement taking place here. And you made a promise to me that I- I wasn't expecting and that is- is bearing fruit in a way that is the sweetest fruit you can imagine because, you know, I want you to hear, um, and speak to these men. And you met- you met Robert last time I was here, but when- You know, when- when I called Ron Torres Washington and told him that they dropped the case against him, I cried like a child. He fainted. And to hear the over- the relief and the- the joy, and, you know, o- out of the two of them, I got very close with Albert Wilson and his family, his sister-in-law, Nikki. You know, he pulled over to the side of the road when I told him and we cried together, and, uh, you know, I- I- I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's no drug material, but there's just no way to match that feeling and the fact that we're doing it and making a difference just, you know, is, um, very gratifying.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is very gratifying. And I should also tell people, you don't believe everything 'cause I brought a case to you ... I've talked to you about several different scenarios and situations, but there was one case where a guy came up to me and he had a family member that he said was innocent and, uh, and I said, "Well, get me your information. Tell me who that person was and, uh, I'll send it over to Josh. We'll see what's up." And, uh, we have a phone call, like, a couple of days later, you know, "Uh, I think this person's guilty as fuck."
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah. And I don't ... You know, and I- I'm ... Look, I thought that about Clemente for a second until I scratched the surface and I said, "Not only is he innocent, he's innocent as fuck." Um, because it's until you hear the whole story.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
That is the problem, right? When you're researching something, you're only gonna get what's been printed.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, or what somebody is telling you in that moment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, I can tell you that I'm OCD enough, and I guess I h- I have enough existential angst that I literally just printed three articles about that case two nights ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JDJosh Dubin
Knowing I was coming here. Just thinking, "You know, I- I deserve to give that a closer look."
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JDJosh Dubin
So I will, and I'm not the on- the only arbiter of, you know, what is or what isn't. I know, like in Clemente's case, um, I can't talk too much about it because I'm handling the federal civil rights case, but some of the shit that I have found out that the police knew at the scene is so infuriating, and some of the lies that I believe they've told, that I've never known and I've lived that case as much as you could live a case. You know, it's like you- you- you think you've heard so much about, um, so many different scenarios and-... prosecutorial misconduct, cover-ups, lies that your mind can never be blown again. And you know, when your mind keeps getting blown, it's fuel for me. And I just don't know, you know, like, it's hard to know how to feel about different reform issues sometimes because, like, you know, there's an argument that I heard, I'd be curious to hear your
- 49:12 – 1:03:53
Traffic stops, police training, and the challenge of rebuilding trust
- JDJosh Dubin
thoughts on, that police aren't needed for traffic stops.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a weird argument because sometimes they are. Right? I've seen people get pulled over for traffic stops and then they pull out a gun-
- JDJosh Dubin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... start shooting at the cop.
- JDJosh Dubin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what happens there?
- JDJosh Dubin
No, I was... Uh, I don't know. And I was talking to someone, actually this morning, that asked me what I, how I felt about it. And he said, "You know, there's some Western countries where police handle traffic stops, but they're unarmed." And I said, "Well..."
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not good either.
- JDJosh Dubin
"That doesn't seem..."
- JRJoe Rogan
Effective.
- JDJosh Dubin
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
What if you're pulling over a, a, a mass murderer? Like, what if you catch someone... Well, if you... Someone's got a unlicensed vehicle or whatever, and it turns out the person inside... I mean, this is a... I have a friend who's a cop, and we had this conversation recently, 'cause there's, they're trying to pass some new rules for cops in Los Angeles. And one of the things that he was saying is they don't want to pull people over for, like, bad taillights. They don't wanna put people over, pull people over for failure to signal, for all these, uh, different transgressions. And he was saying that the problem with that is this is often how we ca- catch a lot of people that are, that have warrants out for them and oftentimes very dangerous criminals.
- JDJosh Dubin
Right. And I've seen, you know, videos of people, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Shooting at cops.
- JDJosh Dubin
... shooting at cops-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
... on a routine traffic stop.
- JRJoe Rogan
I just saw one the other day. I saw one, uh, yesterday, in fact. This guy pulls the guy over, the guy hits the hazard lights, pulls over to the side of the road, totally complies, and then cracks opens the door, turns behind him, and just starts firing at the cop. And then they're in a fucking gunfight, like outta nowhere.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and that-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, if you're a cop and you pull somebody over, there's the very real possibility that you, you might be in a situation where this person is going to... He's gonna fight for his life 'cause he's guilty of something or he's got a warrant out for him. He's done something and he's armed, and it was a wild video. It's wild 'cause they- when the guy got outta the car and he's shooting at the cop, and the cop got outta the car and he's hiding behind the cop car. It's fucking crazy.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah. And it's like, you just... See, that convinces me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
... that it's, like, kind of, you know... So, is the solution that there needs to be better training, um, before we go handing a police officer a gun?
- JRJoe Rogan
I think that's 100% true. I think there needs to be better training, I think there needs to be better qualifications, and I think there's a long road to get to this point, but I think we've gotta get to a place where people respect police because the police are better than they are now. And I don't mean all of them. I mean, there's, for sure, bad cops, just like there's for sure bad bankers and p- and, and every other-
- JDJosh Dubin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... profession. The problem with a bad cop is someone who cuts corners and lies and fucks with things and fucks with the rules. As a cop, you make other people's lives hell 'cause you put other people in jail that aren't supposed to be in jail. You lie about evidence, you withhold information that would exonerate somebody. All that stuff should be a horrific crime, and it's far too commonplace in the world of prosecutors and, and police officers and the... All of this, this, this world that we live in where the people that are supposed to be withholding the law and upholding the law are actually breaking it. Like, that's a giant problem, and I think the only way to fix that is careful examination, massive training. I think you have to treat cops... And my friend Jocko said this very well. Jocko Willink, who's a f- Navy SEAL and, uh, just embodies leadership in basically every cell in his body. And he said, "You, these guys have to go through real training and they should be spending a large percentage of the time they're on the force training," whatever that is, 20%, whatever it is. But they should be training the same way tactical troops train, the same way someone would train if they're in a special forces operation. You, you have to be prepared for everything, and you also have to understand this extreme position in society that you have. And it's an extreme honor, but it- it's also an extreme... The, the job and the obligation and what it means to serve as a police officer, and that's what it is, you're serving. That is a, an incredible position of, of power and influence, and it's gotta be treated with far more respect than it's treated today. You know, I, I drove down the street in LA last time I was in town, and there was a billboard, "Hiring." Well, like, they're looking for cops and it was, like, talking about how much you get an hour, you know, how much you get a year. And I was looking at that, I was like, that should be the last thing you think of if you wanna be a cop. Not saying that you shouldn't get paid well. You definitely should get paid well, but you shouldn't be saying, "Oh, I need fucking 80 grand a year."
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not what you should be... To, to go and be a cop, that is the last fucking thing you should be thinking of. You should be called to service and duty. It should be something where you're thinking, you know, "I want to do better for my community and I think I'd be a good police officer 'cause I'm a fair person and I'm a kind person and I really care, and I think I could protect people from bad guys."
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah. And it, and it's, it's interesting because I've seen similar ads and I've thought, "You gotta try to induce people somehow to want to do this, especially now when it's tough to be a cop."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:03:53 – 1:11:08
From criminal justice to boxing: Brownsville, long shots, and career survival
- JDJosh Dubin
I mean, listen, I have, I have direct experience with this. I managed Zab Judah for a period. Now, Zab was... And, and you know, like, I light up when I talk about him because there's something about him I, that I just love. There is something magnetic and different and, and in a way righteous. And has he made his share of mistakes? Yes. I mean, if you see what the, the circumstances that this guy was born into and what he had to overcome, and he was so gifted as a fighter, but he didn't have a chin, right? Um, but he also took punches that people didn't see, but putting all the boxing part aside, you know, did it work out for Zab the way it should have? So- partially, you know, he became-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's famous.
- JDJosh Dubin
... a world champion.
- JRJoe Rogan
He became a world champion.
- JDJosh Dubin
He's famous, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well respected.
- JDJosh Dubin
Well respected, and I love the guy. And we don't talk as much as we used to, but, you know, and then he had this brain bleed because he stuck around too long, and it was like, "Ugh."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I didn't know about that.
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh my God, he was in a real bad situation. But for every Zab Judah and Shannon Briggs and Mike Tyson, and I mention those examples because they're all from that neighborhood and they all happen to be dear friends of mine, right? Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
You know Shannon Briggs is gonna fight Rampage Jackson?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and he won't listen to me or anyone else. He'll just do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you mean?
- JDJosh Dubin
He just shouldn't do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, aren't they going to fight like one round boxing, one round MMA?
- JDJosh Dubin
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that what they're doing?
- JDJosh Dubin
I don't know. I don't talk to him enough about that because all we do when we talk is laugh.
- JRJoe Rogan
I might have made that up. Now that I'm thinking about that, I think that's Demetrious Mighty Mouse Johnson and he's fighting Rod Tang and that's how they're doing it, one round Muay Thai, one round MMA.
- JDJosh Dubin
No, Shannon's just like (laughs) it just ends up being, like, a laugh fest and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Find out if that's true though, Jamie. He might be, I might be right about that. It might have, that's might be what Quentin agreed to.
- JDJosh Dubin
I know that they were beefing back and forth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Rampage is a dangerous man. If, if-
- JDJosh Dubin
I don't doubt it.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not a joke fight. Like, if, if he gets into an MMA fight with Rampage, Rampage is a fucking serious wrestler. He's so strong. There's a vi- there's a video of Rampage Jackson. It's one of the most horrific slam KOs in the history of the sport. He's fighting Ricardo Arona. Ricardo Arona was this badass jujitsu guy, and Ricardo Arona catches Rampage Jackson in a triangle. You know what a triangle is?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, so he's got his legs wrapped around R- Rampage's arm, one arm, and his neck. Rampage picks him up off the ground like a pillow over his head.
- JDJosh Dubin
I, I've seen it and slams him down.
- JRJoe Rogan
And bam! All the way down, and then headbutts him, uh, you know, from the impact, like, as he's driving him down, his, his head slams into Ricardo Arona's head, and then he punches him a couple of times and he's out cold. Ricardo Arona was never the same again.
- JDJosh Dubin
Does Shannon Briggs, is he able-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do that to Shannon Briggs?
- 1:11:08 – 1:25:09
Doping, testing systems, and the ‘Icarus’ lesson in institutional cheating
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know, boxing is not, i- you know, the UFC has its problems with, with supplements. I mean, and I use that term loosely. But the vast majority have to be clean, because USADA is knocking on your door at 6:00 in the morning. Boxing doesn't have that.
- JDJosh Dubin
That's not true.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you do if you sign up for WADA, but it's-
- JDJosh Dubin
VADA.
- JRJoe Rogan
VADA, sorry.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
VA- Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the thing is, UFC has it built in, so all the fighters get tested. And you get tested randomly. It doesn't, you don't get to opt out, right? So like, there's certain fights where people decide to opt out of VADA testing.
- JDJosh Dubin
Really?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, all boxing is not VADA tested.
- JDJosh Dubin
I was just being facetious. Listen, we ... Shakur Stevenson, I manage him with James Prince. Um, shout out to, to the big homie James Prince. And, you know, I, I personally think that Shakur is the best fighter on the planet now.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's fantastic.
- JDJosh Dubin
And he's-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's absolutely fantastic.
- JDJosh Dubin
He has got everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Everything.
- JDJosh Dubin
And I, and when I say everything, I mean, dare I say Floyd Mayweather-esque. He's-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's something special.
- JDJosh Dubin
So Shakur is fighting Oscar Valdez for, to unify the 130-pound titles on April 30th at the Garden. Would love to have you there if you're in town. And look, Oscar Valdez failed a drug test before his last fight. And it was for an amphetamine called, uh, phenelzine. And it's a, a weight cut. Um, I, I had the opportunity to get very well versed in VADA, and, because Andre Ward thought Kovalev was on something or suspected it. So I, I educated myself as much as I could, and I joined the rec where you could run, you know, any supplement through it. Margaret Goodman, I got to know very well, who runs VADA. But look, Sh- he has been in a random drug testing program that's been sanctioned by the WBC for a while, and then Shakur, um, you know, if you have good management, which I'll, I'll give myself at least that much credit, James Prince and I made sure that-... there's never a lapse in the testing from the T- from September all the way through the fight. It should be, um, it should be that there is a central governing body that dictates that. But when you're in different states and different sanctioning organizations-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
... and that's what frustrates me when... Like, I'm not, like, some Dana White groupie or fan, but people don't get the benefit of having the UFC being the central governing body. You can make rules like that that can protect fighters. So, in any event, that's a whole other conversation.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I- I agree with that as well and I think that the, you know, the argument against that is that the UFC is a monopoly, right? But that's not real. The reason why that's not real is 'cause there's all these stories about guys going over to Bellator and making more money in Bellator, or guys going over to the PFL. There's a lot of organizations now. There's One FC. If you're a championship level or a high-level professional fighter, you can go to these other organizations and you can get paid, especially if you have a name. They're- they're willing to give you a bigger chunk of the pie because they're trying to build up their organization.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, I don't... Yeah, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
But the point is, the UFC che-... They check the fuck out of the fighters. But even through that, there... Do you know... Have you ever, uh, seen the YouTube page More Plates, More Dates?
- JDJosh Dubin
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a funny name but the guy who runs it, his name's Derek, and he's a brilliant guy, like, really brilliant. And knows so much about the human chemistry and about, uh, ways that people use performance-enhancing drugs and- and cheat. And he talks about it openly because he's done a lot of steroids, he's done a lot of performance-enhancing drugs. He understands what they... What... And he also runs a hormone clinic, which is like hormone replacement therapy. So, he knows what you can and can't get away... can and cannot get away with. So, he analyzes some of the blood work by some of the people that have passed USADA and he calls bullshit. A- and he breaks it down very scientifically and he talks about it. Like, "Why is this person's testosterone levels so low?" And they have, like, some trace amount of this steroid-
- JDJosh Dubin
Hmm.
- 1:25:09 – 1:36:44
Clemency as redemption: Florida’s broken process and death-row cases
- JDJosh Dubin
It's the most dangerous thing because... Look, a big part of what I am... This new endeavor that I'm taking on is clemency. And, you know, at the Perlmutter Center, if it's going to be called the Perlmutter Center for Forensic Science Education and Criminal Justice Reform. We haven't arrived at a name. Um, but clemency is a very important process that has at its heart and soul not only "I will grant you clemency because I think you may not have done this or didn't do this," but because, "I think you are worthy of redemption and forgiveness." And instead of throwing out your life or a large portion of it, I'm going to see past it and redeem, help redeem you. And it i- it's up to us as the public at large to start putting pressure on politicians regardless of... Because you know how easy it is... It's a, it's a... So, like, you just, you just sort of crystallized it. The easiest thing to do is to say, "Fuck it, I'm done with that person," and then put them out of your mind and consciousness. It's easy when you hear someone was accused of committing this crime to say, "Fuck them, they deserve it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
And I see that happening-... and governors who have this unbelievable magic wand and, um, power, maybe even on a higher plane than police officers and other members of law enforcement to say, "You know what? I'm gonna treat this clemency process as a real thing." And I'm not... I- I am not saying this as a Democrat, because I don't know that I am any longer one. I don't know what I am. I think I'm an independent human being. But if you take Ron DeSantis, for example, in Florida, the clemency regime in Florida needs to be overhauled and there needs to be human pressure, not from Democrats and re- from human beings. One of my clients is one of the oldest men sitting on death row in this country, James Daly. I've talked about him before. And he, he's one of three people in their 70s and 80s that are sitting on death row. And the clemency regime in Florida is one that exists, but is not in practice in any real practical way.
Episode duration: 2:56:32
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Transcript of episode 3BWt2USIWR4
