EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,138 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello, Joshua.
- JDJosh Dubin
Hello, Joseph. How are you, man?
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you, man.
- JDJosh Dubin
I never called you Joseph.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's okay, I never called you Joshua. I think I did like five minutes ago.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, that's all right. My mom and my wife call me Joshua.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, well, I'm sorry. (laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
That's all right. (laughs) Depends on the context.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, first of all, uh, we should, uh, we should talk about the people that got off because of the last podcast we did, because that's an amazing thing. So let's talk about that, because- because of you and your work, there's two men out there that would still be in jail. Because of you talking about it and you putting the heat on whoever was responsible-
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... now these two guys are free.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and I- you know, it's hard to determine with any certainty the various factors that go into an exoneration or, you know, prosecutors dropping charges. Uh, but there are two immovable truths here. Two young Black men are- have a new lease on life and have had horrific nightmares end. And I know that this platform and this show not only helped that, but were a driving force behind it. And I know it not just based on what I think. I know it based on empirical evidence, because there was a time when I was asked to come to Lawrence, Kansas, and sit at the Lawrence Police Department on the case against Rontores Washington so that the Lawrence Police Department could tell me, "Here's the evidence we have against your client." And before the meeting started, the district attorney walked in the room, and instead of saying hello to me, she said, "Welcome to the armpit."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JDJosh Dubin
Now, that was a direct reference to something I said on this podcast, uh, that I quickly, right after saying it, caught myself and corrected myself, because the context in which I was saying it... And I- and I said that- that was a horrible way to put it or whatever I said, but the context in which I was saying it was, in my mind, that if you are a- a Black man or woman caught in the criminal justice system in Lawrence, Kansas, that is the armpit. So, I knew then and there that she was paying attention, and not just paying attention, paying attention to this podcast, and sh- she knew full well that I had the cavalry behind me. Now, what- how much that factored into the story I'll tell later about how those charges against Rontores Washington were dropped and what happened to Albert Wilson, who was the same prosecutor's office, um, we'll never know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't there an also an argument for you expressing the facts of the case outside of a courtroom setting where they're trying to win? Right? There- isn't there a problem with prosecutors and defendants and this- this system that's set up- that's set up like it's a game? And I don't mean it's a game like it's trivial. I mean it's a game like people are trying to win.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, yeah, there's a part of that. But I- I think that in- in recognizing, and you and I have spoken about this, in recognizing that sort of fault that exists amongst us as mammals, as human beings, uh, that is especially so when you're talking about prosecutors, in my opinion, that have this tunnel vision that we'll talk about. I think you just have to recognize that pressure breaks pipes in these cases.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
If you think about, um, what's going on with Pervis Payne right now, what's going on with Julius Jones, with Rodney Reed, I mean, Pervis Payne is gonna get out in five years. Julius Jones, Rodney Reed is facing a new trial. Those results were brought to bear by pressure, public pressure. So, one immovable truth, r- I referred to two before, but one sort of overarching, um, known is that this works. And it's because... I want to tell you the spirit in which I'm here today. And, you know, I am here not on behalf of the Innocence Project. I don't speak for them even though I'm the ambassador advisor. I, um, there are other organizations that I'm involved with that pay attention to news cycles and media. I'm here as Josh Dubin the human being that is doing my part. And it's not for me to judge whether it's small or large. Doing my part to help in whatever way I can, whether it's a drop in the bucket, a- a grain of sand, or something more, and that's for someone else to judge, to help free people that are wrongfully incarcerated, period, full stop. Y- this show has been, um, a critical part of telling these stories and getting that out there. I'm not here to have a debate about people's perception of things other people say or pass judgment or anything like that. That's not my role, and that's not what I'm here for.And I'm -- I think that we need to have a discussion about race in our -- in the criminal injustice system. And I know you're -- I know enough about you to know your heart, and that we're gonna have that today. And that is the spirit in which I'm here. And I know the direct results because two young Black men, um, were exonerated as a result, at least in part because of the show.
- JRJoe Rogan
How-how many cases are you dealing with, like concurrently? How many cases do you have on file, like right now, where you have to go over the details of someone who may be innocent?
- JDJosh Dubin
It -- the, the answer to it is, thousands. I get mail every day from jails all across the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we were talking about this earlier, about, uh, how much your business has exploded because of these kind of conversations. What -- what do you -- how do you manage that?
- JDJosh Dubin
Okay. So, the Innocence Project, which I am -- again, I can't speak on behalf of them. But what the Innocence-
- JRJoe Rogan
You work with them?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes. I'm the ambassador advisor to the Innocence Project, which makes me sort of, you know, somebody that -- uh, it's a unique role because I have done so much pro bono work and awareness raising that there was a decision to give me that title. They have, uh, a remarkable, uh, mail r- m- m- you know, mail room center that processes mail from prisoners from across the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
True.
- JDJosh Dubin
Then there is a network called the Innocence Network, which are franchisees, if you will. There's the Midwest Innocence Project, who was my co-counsel in the Ron Torres Washington case. Um, and there are -- you know, there's one in New Orleans. They're all over the country, that operate on their own. And they are constantly getting mail. And then there are just people like myself, Jason Flom, that are constantly getting mail. And it's so much to keep up with, that you need to be able to have a network of resources. So, I have decided, um, to take on a role at Cardozo Law School, which is where the Innocence Project started as a field, what they call a field clinic of law students over 25 years ago, founded by Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld. I was offered the role of becoming, um, the executive director of a new program called the Redemption Project. And look, again, this is why not only this show, but being able to find common ground with people we disagree with is so critical in this process. The founder -- or excuse me, the chairman of Marvel, Ike Perlmutter and his wife, it's gonna be called the Perlmutter Center. We don't know-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's the chairman of Marvel Comics?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes, Marvel Entertainment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
And he's a right, a right-leaning Republican-
- 15:00 – 30:00
Right. …
- JDJosh Dubin
up getting ... My phone's off. I ended up getting him, um, exonerated with a, with a village of people. I don't want to make it like it was just me. And the day that I walked him out, Ike had called me so many times that I thought there was an emergency. And he said, "Can you please come to Palm Beach before you leave Florida?" And I said, "Sure." So I, I drove down to Palm Beach a couple of days later, and he sat me down and, you know, he's a very stoic, older Israeli man. And he had a tear in his eye, and he said, "I realized that if I ..." And his case was still very much alive. We hadn't figured out the DNA. He said, "By watching what just happened with this man in Orlando, I realize that if I didn't have the resources, and, you know, the, the means by which to have you and Roy Black, that I might have ended up like him." And I'm like, "Well, you wouldn't have ended up on death row," but ... (laughs) It, it was like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
... his moment of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Clarity.
- JDJosh Dubin
... clarity, and his epiphany. And then he has been just, he's been by my side and my partner in this, and that's why I always stress the importance of, you know ... We're never gonna see eye to eye with everyone, and we're certainly not gonna see eye to eye with anyone in a two-party system.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a problem.
- JDJosh Dubin
And it's a huge problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think that's the major problem, honestly, because when you have a two-party system, you have people that feel like they have to subscribe to all the opinions on one side if they agree to the critical ones. Like, what's critical to them, whether it's a woman's right to choose, or whether it's freedom of speech, or whether it's, uh, gun control, like whatever it is on the one side that you feel like you need to be aligned with, and then you'll accept all the other nonsense that goes with it, instead of what most people are. Most people are in the center, like the vast majority, but that's not an option. There's no center option. So, a guy like Ike Per- Ike Perlmutter, he's probably, he seems like a very compassionate guy, but he's also a businessman. And when you're a businessman and you want your taxes taken care of correctly, and you want loopholes in place, and you want, you know, you want to do what these guys have been doing forever with their money.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a right-wing thing.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, listen. W- for full disclosure, Ike is very conservative and abides by every law when it comes to (laughs) his taxes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, no, I don't mean it in a negative way.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, no, I know. I know, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't mean it in a-
- JDJosh Dubin
No, I know, and, you know, that's what I've found. No, I was just joking. I mean, look. That is what I have found. He has become like family to me. He knows my children. We, you know ... I- I love the man, and I love his wife, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's great that ... There, there is common ground, man. There's more common ground than there's not. People, they get ideological, and they get tribal, and they, they, they find themselves segmented off in these groups that can't communicate with other groups. And that's one other thing you see, like e- even in the podcast world, as weird as it is, there's certain people that, like, you can't go on that guy's show because he's right-wing, or a, you know, a right-wing person will say, like, "Why do you talk to that person? They're a libtard." Like they have these, like, ridiculous ideas of what you should and shouldn't be doing, and like-... I feel like the more opportunities we have to, to just find common ground, the better off we're all going to be.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah. And, uh, and that's why I'm, that's why I will continue to be here and talk to you, because I've always ... Like, this is the biggest problem with our society, and I don't even want to go near, I hate even saying the word cancel culture. That's just, like, an easy thing to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It's an easy word. It's easy, an easy phrase.
- JDJosh Dubin
And the m- the more difficult thing to do is take a step back and hover above the moment and think about it this way, like, "What, what's on my mind right now?" And if people can't get this, they just can't get it, as far as I'm concerned. This situation with this young man, Amir Locke, who was just executed in Minneapolis by officer, in my opinion, I guess you always have to say that these days, who-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know this case.
- JDJosh Dubin
Okay. So, this is, this, this is the best, um, example, current example of why this is not a Democrat or a Republican issue. It is a human rights issue. Amir Locke is a young Black man in his early 20s who would ... Lives in Minneapolis. Carjackings in cities are on, are in the news cycle quite a bit lately. You hear about them in L.A., you hear about them all over the place, right? And in Minneapolis. He goes out, no criminal record, and legally buys a gun. Why? Because he's a DoorDash driver, so it's obviously a concern to him. He's sleeping at a friend's house. This happened just last week. He's sleeping at a friend's house and either four or five police officers execute what's referred to as a no-knock warrant, okay? Within three or four seconds, apparently, he is sleeping. Five seconds later, by second number nine, he's dead. Now, when the doors blow open and five cops come in, you don't know who they are at first, and you go to reach for a gun that you legally have, and you get blown away, that is a problem. And here's the problem. I want to go back to this no-knock warrant, but this is not ... This is an epidemic happening mostly to people of color, to Black men and women. And they're not all no-knock situations, but it, but Breonna Taylor was a no-knock warrant situation. Um, you know, Antwon-
- JRJoe Rogan
And e- wasn't it a no-knock situation about marijuana as well?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yes, yes. Um, Botham, Botham Jean, um, was not a no-knock situation, but it was the same type of thing, right? Here in Texas where w- this female, white female officer said ... He's eating ice cream in his own place, and she comes in and thinks she's in the wrong apartment and blows him away. Um, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, uh, Fontability, Philando Castile, Daunte Wright. The list goes on and on. It sickens me. And I'll tell you something, you know, these are all men and women of color getting blown away and executed. Now, look, some of these people, their families are dear friends of mine. Botham Jean's sister is a dear friend of mine. So I see the, uh, her name is Alisa Finley, and she's become an amazing voice and has somehow summoned the strength to be an activist. Um, Antwon Rose's mom, Michelle Kennedy as well. And these are people that, to me, mean something. I cry with them. I try to console them. I try to help their causes. But let's take a, like, a step back and look what these no-knock raids are about. And by the way, the difference between a k- a knock raid and a no-knock raid is the difference between a few seconds. So, let's forget about Democrats and Republicans. No-knock raids were born out of the 1980s, um, Just Say No, Nancy Reagan war on drugs campaign. And the, and the rationale behind it, not that she was responsible for the legislation or, or the phenomenon, but the rationale behind it from law enforcement's standpoint was we want to surprise drug dealers and people involved, involved in narcotics trafficking, and we want to prevent them from being able to grab a gun or from destroying evidence.
- JRJoe Rogan
And d- so they have warrants, no-knock warrants?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, you would go in front of a judge, and you would say, "This is probable cause. This person's selling drugs, and they have guns. And we want a no-knock warrant." It's a specific type of warrant.
- JDJosh Dubin
Correct, correct. So, that's exactly right. And so, it was born out of the 1980s, quote-unquote, war on drugs. So, in the wake of the devastation that it's caused, specifically to people of color, because there is some, whether you call it institutional racism, whether you call it ... Whatever it is, we're just not living in reality if we are not, if we are not recognizing the fact that there are many white, uh, white folks that see someone of color and think danger, and typically African Americans. Um, they think danger. They think there's a problem. They, they have all of these conscious and unconscious biases. There- this is not a coincidence that all of these people that are being killed in these situations, whether it's a no-knock warrant, knock warrant, a Black person running from police. So, if you get back to these no-knock warrants-You know, the failure is not on the part of Republicans or Democrats, it's on the part of all of them as human beings and politicians. The George Floyd Policing Act, for which Joe Biden and Kamala Harris championed, and I think Tim Scott, who is the only African American Republican, really got behind. You know, it ultimately failed. Um, and that failure is not a Democratic failure or a Republican failure, it's a failure of all of us.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was in it?
- JDJosh Dubin
It wa- there were many police reforms in it, but critical to this conversation was what the, was the George Floyd Policing Act sought to do away with no-knock warrants by telling s- s- municipalities, "We are gonna cut off your access to state and federal funds unless and until you stop this practice."
- JRJoe Rogan
So when a- an act like this is proposed, how does it get reviewed, and what, what makes it get denied?
- 30:00 – 45:00
And that's what muddies,…
- JRJoe Rogan
the, the shenanigans that go on behind the scenes. Like what's, what's really, uh, operating the machine versus what we would like. What we would like is it to be a representative of the people and everyone working together to make this world a better place, to make the environment better, to make the economy better, the infrastructure better, make this, the inner cities and the communities better. That's not what they're working for. They're working for the people that got 'em into office, and those people are just trying to make the most amount of money possible.
- JDJosh Dubin
And that's what muddies, you know, that's, that when, you know, I was with you, vis-a-vis hope, until you got to the last part of the sentence, and that's where I start-
- JRJoe Rogan
S-
- JDJosh Dubin
... to lose hope, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's a problem, but I think people realizing that w-... this problem will will exist forever unless we change the way we view things. And one of the problems that we're having is, we think along ideological lines and when you do, you will, you will not judge people that are on your team that are fucking it over for everybody else.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You'll, you'll give them a pass. You'll give them a pass for doing all the same things the Republicans did, or doing all s- the same things the Democrats did, for doing all the same things for their special interest groups and, you know, whatever the lobbyists are setting up for them. And you'll, you'll forgive them for padding these acts with these ridiculous measures and- where n- nobody wants to vote for them. Like when you look at the Build Back Better, there was a s- I forget who the politician was, but they had that Build Back Better Bill and he brought it up in front of these, uh, these, uh, press people. And he showed this, how thick it is, and he goes, "Do you really think they've read this?" And he goes, "Who do you think has read this? There's thousands and thousands of pages. Anybody combed over this and they know all the details of this, this bill?" He goes, "Nobody, none of them are doing it. They're just passing it 'cause th- their party wants to pass it."
- JDJosh Dubin
Especially when our mindset these days is to grab the lowest hanging fruit in terms of headlines and use that as the basis upon which we form not only opinions, but make decisions and decide how will I act and who will judge me for acting that way based on whatever decision I come to. And I, I, I question whether when people tell me they have an opinion about something, the same way I question myself. It's, it's a bit of a mind fuck, you know? Do I really feel this way or do I feel this way 'cause I'm afraid of whatever backlash I'm gonna get?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that's the thing. Everybody's worried about backlash now, and it's designed that way, it's engineered that way. This system is engineered that when you step outside the lines, they will attack you and that will force a lot of people who are watching that to stay quiet.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and I think that, that, like I said, the easy thing to do is to stay quiet or to go with the crowd and out of fear of whether it's being, you know, canceled, retribution, losing relationships, if we can't have these discussions and be able to look at ourselves in the mirror and be introspective enough to say, "You know what? I'm not going to be a Democrat or a Republican, I'm gonna be a free-thinking human being." And the way that I try to apply that... And look, I'm not trying to be a m- You know, one of the things that I have like a, a real, this is my psychiatric issue among many, you know, I worry about coming off self-righteous or that I'm trying to save the planet or, you know, it's like, I worry about other people feeling that way about me.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's good. That's, uh, humility.
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's smart.
- JDJosh Dubin
I hope it is. And I-
- JRJoe Rogan
No, it is. I know you.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's exactly what it is.
- JDJosh Dubin
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't want anybody to think you're pompous.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you're not.
- JDJosh Dubin
And I'm, I'm, I, I, I'm... You know, sometimes I, it, it's in my heart in a way that it hurts me to even think about that, but I understand that people will, will come to whatever conclusions they do. So I'm not trying to be a martyr or anything like that. I just feel like, like I don't s- not here today speaking on behalf of the Innocence Project, but it's in, that's in my DNA. I will take that with me. That's a... Th- that was a, uh, a bit ironic to say it was in my DNA since all we do DNA, but I will take that experience with me to this new role, which I'll talk about later, but I just feel like it, um, it, it requires us to take a step back and, you know, if you just look at no-knock warrants as just th- the example we're using, and you look at the Amir Locke case, there's example after example in the South of this happening, not just in the South. You know, there was a, a, a kid, uh, uh, during one of these no-knock warrants where they threw a flashbang through the window and it landed in a baby's crib.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
And a cop got-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) .
- JDJosh Dubin
... uh, you know, all caught up in it. Her na- I think her name was Nikki Autry.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, you know, there was the case of Marvin Guy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JDJosh Dubin
... who is still in jail. Um, Marvin Guy, this case was another no-knock warrant. And, you know, look, it's here in Texas.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
It is very gratifying.…
- JDJosh Dubin
in California. Um, I'm trying to remember the case. The Pierre Rushing case, and is throwing the full resources of his firm behind the case. And, you know, he called me. He was hiking with Jason Flom in LA and he's like, "This is amazing the way this works. Look at the ripple effect of what you're doing." So there are more people to save and I just think that it takes ... There's a lot of- of, "What can I do to help?" Whatever you're doing, keep doing it, whether it's writing letters, serving on juries, and we'll talk about that, but s- not trying to get out of it, um, because there is- there is a- a movement taking place here. And you made a promise to me that I- I wasn't expecting and that is- is bearing fruit in a way that is the sweetest fruit you can imagine because, you know, I want you to hear, um, and speak to these men. And you met- you met Robert last time I was here, but when- You know, when- when I called Ron Torres Washington and told him that they dropped the case against him, I cried like a child. He fainted. And to hear the over- the relief and the- the joy, and, you know, o- out of the two of them, I got very close with Albert Wilson and his family, his sister-in-law, Nikki. You know, he pulled over to the side of the road when I told him and we cried together, and, uh, you know, I- I- I've said it before, I'll say it again, there's no drug material, but there's just no way to match that feeling and the fact that we're doing it and making a difference just, you know, is, um, very gratifying.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is very gratifying. And I should also tell people, you don't believe everything 'cause I brought a case to you ... I've talked to you about several different scenarios and situations, but there was one case where a guy came up to me and he had a family member that he said was innocent and, uh, and I said, "Well, get me your information. Tell me who that person was and, uh, I'll send it over to Josh. We'll see what's up." And, uh, we have a phone call, like, a couple of days later, you know, "Uh, I think this person's guilty as fuck."
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah. And I don't ... You know, and I- I'm ... Look, I thought that about Clemente for a second until I scratched the surface and I said, "Not only is he innocent, he's innocent as fuck." Um, because it's until you hear the whole story.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, and I-
- JRJoe Rogan
That is the problem, right? When you're researching something, you're only gonna get what's been printed.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, or what somebody is telling you in that moment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
Um, I can tell you that I'm OCD enough, and I guess I h- I have enough existential angst that I literally just printed three articles about that case two nights ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JDJosh Dubin
Knowing I was coming here. Just thinking, "You know, I- I deserve to give that a closer look."
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JDJosh Dubin
So I will, and I'm not the on- the only arbiter of, you know, what is or what isn't. I know, like in Clemente's case, um, I can't talk too much about it because I'm handling the federal civil rights case, but some of the shit that I have found out that the police knew at the scene is so infuriating, and some of the lies that I believe they've told, that I've never known and I've lived that case as much as you could live a case. You know, it's like you- you- you think you've heard so much about, um, so many different scenarios and-... prosecutorial misconduct, cover-ups, lies that your mind can never be blown again. And you know, when your mind keeps getting blown, it's fuel for me. And I just don't know, you know, like, it's hard to know how to feel about different reform issues sometimes because, like, you know, there's an argument that I heard, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on, that police aren't needed for traffic stops.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a weird argument because sometimes they are. Right? I've seen people get pulled over for traffic stops and then they pull out a gun-
- JDJosh Dubin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... start shooting at the cop.
- JDJosh Dubin
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, what happens there?
- JDJosh Dubin
No, I was... Uh, I don't know. And I was talking to someone, actually this morning, that asked me what I, how I felt about it. And he said, "You know, there's some Western countries where police handle traffic stops, but they're unarmed." And I said, "Well..."
- JRJoe Rogan
That's not good either.
- JDJosh Dubin
"That doesn't seem..."
- JRJoe Rogan
Effective.
- JDJosh Dubin
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
What if you're pulling over a, a, a mass murderer? Like, what if you catch someone... Well, if you... Someone's got a unlicensed vehicle or whatever, and it turns out the person inside... I mean, this is a... I have a friend who's a cop, and we had this conversation recently, 'cause there's, they're trying to pass some new rules for cops in Los Angeles. And one of the things that he was saying is they don't want to pull people over for, like, bad taillights. They don't wanna put people over, pull people over for failure to signal, for all these, uh, different transgressions. And he was saying that the problem with that is this is often how we ca- catch a lot of people that are, that have warrants out for them and oftentimes very dangerous criminals.
- JDJosh Dubin
Right. And I've seen, you know, videos of people, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Shooting at cops.
- JDJosh Dubin
... shooting at cops-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
... on a routine traffic stop.
- JRJoe Rogan
I just saw one the other day. I saw one, uh, yesterday, in fact. This guy pulls the guy over, the guy hits the hazard lights, pulls over to the side of the road, totally complies, and then cracks opens the door, turns behind him, and just starts firing at the cop. And then they're in a fucking gunfight, like outta nowhere.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
It's a real solution.…
- JDJosh Dubin
solution.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a real solution.
- JDJosh Dubin
It's a real solution and what, what frustrates me also is that, you know, then you, you get, "What does that look like? What does that feel..." You know what? Here's what it looks like. Last summer when all these corporations were feeling guilty that they hadn't done enough for social justice causes, I can tell you it was probably one of the biggest fundraising, um, pushes for social justice reform organizations across this country to the point where they raised more money than they probably ever did, right? And it was like the summer of like White guilt, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
Or the summer of corporate guilt. And I bet you that amount of money eclipses the billions. Um, because I can draw on examples and organizations that I may be involved in tangentially or otherwise that benefited from that.... that's only, that's, that's to make a company or a corporation feel good in the moment and check the box that I'm doing that. But what you just said, you know, if you look at, like, what Bill Gates, um, and, you know, the Billionaires Pledge have done, whether it's for clean water, um, for, or for other public health endeavors, this is a public health human rights crisis.
- JRJoe Rogan
Tru- at every level. Every level.
- JDJosh Dubin
And the way that race, um, the, the, the disparities in the treatment of people of color in this country, um, it, it, is it solvable ever? Who knows. But what you're suggesting seems to me like if you're going to make an investment in anything, how about make an investment in that? And it makes total sense because when you... It was funny because when you said how you make America great again, (laughs) make less losers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
It's true. It's like, I'm tired of hearing these stories of after the fact people realize that it was my upbringing and the, the nightmarish situation I was born into that had I had the perspective I have now, if I was able to have overcome that, um, I may otherwise have been on the path I'm on now. And it's like, it, it makes you sort of feel helpless and hopeless inside that, well, well, yeah, you're right, and how do you solve that problem of someone being born into a circumstance... I mean, I've managed a bunch of professional fighters that are from Brownsville and, you know, sort of started with no chance.
- JRJoe Rogan
But thank God they found fighting because fighting gave them at least some kind of an opportunity to do better. A lot of people never find anything.
- JDJosh Dubin
(sighs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And this idea that just because someone does it... This is what drives me crazy, when someone says, "Oh, look at this guy, he made it into the NBA. He lived in a shit neighborhood. Look at this guy. He became a rapper. He made, he made it out of the streets." Like, so what? How many people don't? Do you know that that's the craziest path ever, the path of being a world championship fighter to get out of the ghetto as a, a person who uses his knuckles to punch another guy in the face? That is one of the craziest ways to become successful ever, and there's so many variables that are outside of your control, like genetics, speed, fast twitch muscle fibers, whether or not you can take a punch. There's so many different thi- whether or not you have good coaching, whether or not you have a trainer that gives a fuck about you that doesn't send you to the wolves right away. The idea that a guy should be able to do it because this guy did it or that guy or Mike Tyson did it, you're out of your fucking mind.
- JDJosh Dubin
It's so hard, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's easy for people to say if they've not come from those circumstances, all the people that I know that are all those pull yourself up by your bootstraps never had to fucking do that. They never had to do that.
- JDJosh Dubin
(sighs) And we've talked about this. It's the mo- the most frustrating thing to me is like, "Oh, this guy did it, that guy did it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Shut the fuck up.
- JDJosh Dubin
I mean, listen, I have, I have direct experience with this. I managed Zab Judah for a period. Now, Zab was... And, and you know, like, I light up when I talk about him because there's something about him I, that I just love. There is something magnetic and different and, and in a way righteous. And has he made his share of mistakes? Yes. I mean, if you see what the, the circumstances that this guy was born into and what he had to overcome, and he was so gifted as a fighter, but he didn't have a chin, right? Um, but he also took punches that people didn't see, but putting all the boxing part aside, you know, did it work out for Zab the way it should have? So- partially, you know, he became-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's famous.
- JDJosh Dubin
... a world champion.
- JRJoe Rogan
He became a world champion.
- JDJosh Dubin
He's famous, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well respected.
- JDJosh Dubin
Well respected, and I love the guy. And we don't talk as much as we used to, but, you know, and then he had this brain bleed because he stuck around too long, and it was like, "Ugh."
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I didn't know about that.
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh my God, he was in a real bad situation. But for every Zab Judah and Shannon Briggs and Mike Tyson, and I mention those examples because they're all from that neighborhood and they all happen to be dear friends of mine, right? Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
You know Shannon Briggs is gonna fight Rampage Jackson?
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, and he won't listen to me or anyone else. He'll just do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you mean?
- JDJosh Dubin
He just shouldn't do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, aren't they going to fight like one round boxing, one round MMA?
- 1:15:00 – 1:27:44
Hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
drugs and- and cheat. And he talks about it openly because he's done a lot of steroids, he's done a lot of performance-enhancing drugs. He understands what they... What... And he also runs a hormone clinic, which is like hormone replacement therapy. So, he knows what you can and can't get away... can and cannot get away with. So, he analyzes some of the blood work by some of the people that have passed USADA and he calls bullshit. A- and he breaks it down very scientifically and he talks about it. Like, "Why is this person's testosterone levels so low?" And they have, like, some trace amount of this steroid-
- JDJosh Dubin
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's in their system. That seems to indicate to me that they were doing something-
- JDJosh Dubin
Oh, that's fascinating.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then their testosterone dropped. And why would a super athlete of the highest order have such a low testosterone-
- JDJosh Dubin
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... a blood level of testosterone right? He's like-
- JDJosh Dubin
That- that's deep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, he's on top of it. It's also the testosterone to epi-testosterone t-... There's a, there's a testosterone ratio, right? Like, where they're looking for testosterone to... Compared to estrogen, testosterone compared to all these other hormones, and there's a balance that has to be... There's like a natural level of balance. But he's pointing out, like, a lot of these balances are way off. Like, there's nothing that would make them off other than cheating. So, what you need is like a far more comprehensive examination of that individual-
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah, yeah because-
- JRJoe Rogan
... to find out what is causing that.
- JDJosh Dubin
Because VADA, I know, speaking for them, and they do a fantastic job for what they do, is just telling you if there's the presence of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JDJosh Dubin
... of a substance. So, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JDJosh Dubin
... I went d- deep down a rabbit hole on it before with the Catlin Institute in California-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JDJosh Dubin
... and I spoke to Oliver Catlin 'cause I just wanted to make sure that if I was in charge of policing... Not policing it, but understanding the testing procedures for a guy like Andre Ward and now Shakur, that I had as much knowledge as possible, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you ever talked to that Balko guy? What d- what's his name, Jamie?
- JDJosh Dubin
Victor Conte?
- JRJoe Rogan
Victor Conte.
- JDJosh Dubin
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
We've had him on the podcast before. Very interesting guy. 'Cause h- here's a guy that used to do that, right?
- JDJosh Dubin
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
He used to give people undetectable steroids. He would manufacture-
- JDJosh Dubin
What was it? Clear-
- JRJoe Rogan
... the clear.
- JDJosh Dubin
... and the green?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I mean he gave it to Barry Bonds. He- he manufactured the stuff. He- he actually came up with a formula to give people something that would evade testing 'cause it's a molecule removed, or it's like something that's different from... This is one of the reasons why the Olympics and, uh, even the UFC, they hold on to s- to s- these samples of dr- of, uh, blood and urine rather, and then they test them when new technology becomes available and when new knowledge of new supplements become available. Because there are things that can avoid detection initially and then they fi- they come up with new methods to check. And because of that there was a bunch of, uh, medalists, and, uh, I believe gold medalists from Russia in- in wrestling had their medals removed 'cause they went back and looked into old samples and they go, "Well, well, look at this. This guy's pissed hot." Like, we just didn't have the ability-
- JDJosh Dubin
Hmm.
Episode duration: 2:56:32
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 3BWt2USIWR4
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome