Joe Rogan Experience #1798 - Michael Shellenberger

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) And we're up with the future governor of California, Michael Shelman. Hello, Michael.

   2. MSMichael Shellenberger0:17

      (sighs) Thanks for having me back, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Nice to see you. Hey, um, I said that I wasn't going to do any more political podcasts-

   4. MSMichael Shellenberger0:22

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      ... but I had already booked this one.

   6. MSMichael Shellenberger0:24

      (laughs) Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      So, for people like, "What the fuck, man?"

   8. MSMichael Shellenberger0:27

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      But, you're, you're not just a political person. You know, your book, San Fransicko, what would you call that? That's a sociopolitical book, right?

   10. MSMichael Shellenberger0:37

       Yeah. Uh, it's a work of journalism.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Yeah.

   12. MSMichael Shellenberger0:39

       Commercial nonfiction, for sure.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       And a way for people to understand what can happen when bad policies get in the way of a city and turn it sideways, which is what has happened to San Francisco.

   14. MSMichael Shellenberger0:53

       Yeah, pathological altruism. I, I, I've held-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Ooh, I like that word.

   16. MSMichael Shellenberger0:57

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       I like that expression.

   18. MSMichael Shellenberger0:58

       It's not mine. I mean, I just, I just, you know-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Good.

   20. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00

       ... it's synthesized, a bunch of other people's stuff. But, yeah, I mean, I considered whether it was Munchausen syndrome by proxy.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Mm, why so?

   22. MSMichael Shellenberger1:07

       Well, so Munchausen syndrome by proxy, of course, is when, like, a parent deliberately poisons her child in order to be able to treat the child for illness.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Yeah.

   24. MSMichael Shellenberger1:16

       So, we have... One of the things I-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Is it just chil- children? It's, like, caretaker, right?

   26. MSMichael Shellenberger1:19

       I guess it could be. Yeah, it could be. I guess it could be, like, a nurse and a patient. But we... One of the things, since I've seen you last, uh, a few things have happened. Uh, I discovered, I was the first one to report that we have a supervised drug use site now, illegal, in San Francisco's United Nations Plaza, where people are using fentanyl and meth under city supervision. So, I guess, the difference is that, you know, Munchausen syndrome by proxy, the, the adult or the, the caregiver is poisoning the person directly. In this case, people are poisoning themselves in front of the supposed caregivers, and the caregivers are there to monitor it, but-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:58

       When they do something like that, did they have any proposal or any sort of protocol these people can follow to get off the drugs?

   28. MSMichael Shellenberger2:07

       They call it radical compassion. This is, you know, there's a chapter on my book called Love Bombing, but it's basically, this is the big blind spot for progressives, is that they just can't conceive that being radically compassionate could cause harm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       And radical compassion, the idea is you're gonna accept these people for who they are, the, the fact they're drug users, and you're gonna give them a comfortable, safe place in order to do their drugs?

   30. MSMichael Shellenberger2:34

       Yeah, radical. Sorry. And by the way, it's radical hospitality, is, is what they call it.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   ... vie for your…

   1. MSMichael Shellenberger15:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      ... vie for your attention.

   3. MSMichael Shellenberger15:01

      Yep. Yeah. And, and the flip side of it, of course, is that people are also really gravitating towards these long-form podcasts that you've, you've been pioneering, and, um, Bridget and, uh, you know, Mel and these other folks that we, we know. And so there's clearly a hunger for the, the other side of that digital experience.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      Well, there's a hunger for honesty.

   5. MSMichael Shellenberger15:19

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      You know, and that, I think that's an complex-

   7. MSMichael Shellenberger15:21

      And complexity.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      Yeah, complexity, nuance.

   9. MSMichael Shellenberger15:23

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:23

       You know, and, and being honest about y- maybe your own conflicts about an idea and a, and a problem. And I think it's very hard to do that. First of all, it's very hard to do that in a small article, and it's very hard to do that when you work for a giant corporation that has an agenda. Like, uh, you know, I'm friends with Bari Weiss, and Bari, when she was talking about her time at the New York Times, like, she ran into many issues with that, where, you know, you, you have an idea that you want to say in a certain way, and then the editors say, "No, I want you to say it like this."

   11. MSMichael Shellenberger15:55

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Or, "No, I want you to change that." And then it doesn't become your voice anymore.

   13. MSMichael Shellenberger15:59

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       It becomes this sort of bastardized, conformed version of your voice.

   15. MSMichael Shellenberger16:04

       Yep. Oh, and just look at what she's done since. I mean, her, her essays are incredible. The two best essays that I've written since, over the last six months, were for her. She made them better.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:13

       Her Sub- her Sub-

   17. MSMichael Shellenberger16:13

       She actually made them-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       Her Substack's amazing.

   19. MSMichael Shellenberger16:15

       It's incredible. She made them more in my voice than (laughs) than my articles from my own Substack are in my voice, you know? It's like when you go to a, like, a restaurant, and they serve, like, a dish, and it's like, it's like, "This is the most essential aspect of apple."

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:27

       Yeah.

   21. MSMichael Shellenberger16:27

       You know? And it's like-

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       Yeah.

   23. MSMichael Shellenberger16:28

       ... I feel like she brought out my voice in her editing, and it was an incredible experience. But yeah, I think there's that hunger for it. And hey, man, that's why I'm here, dude.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:37

       Well-

   25. MSMichael Shellenberger16:37

       'Cause I just think there's the- the desire for something that gets beyond this just really bad, dumb left-right stuff.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       It's so dumb.

   27. MSMichael Shellenberger16:45

       Good and evil stuff.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       And the rise of Substack has been one of the most amazing things about the era of censorship that we live in, is that this one platform has attracted Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Bari Weiss, you, so many people who have these brilliant voices that, um, have a very difficult time finding an unfiltered path to, to the mainstream, to people-

   29. MSMichael Shellenberger17:13

       Yep.

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:14

       ... to people to just check out.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. MSMichael Shellenberger30:00

      is actually much worse than most people realize. That the meth is ... The meth and fentanyl are really, really deadly, dangerous drugs. When I got out of this work on drug policy in the year 2000, 17,000 people died in the year 2000. This year, over 105,000 Americans will die. You put that in contrast with, like, climate, you know, climate and na- uh, you know, climate and weather-related natural disasters globally killed 6,000 people last year. So, just in terms of scale-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:32

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MSMichael Shellenberger30:32

      ... we're making ... We've reduced the number of people dying from natural disasters by upwards of 95%.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:37

      Yeah.

   5. MSMichael Shellenberger30:37

      Whereas the drug deaths are increasing, deaths of despair, the whole thing, the basic picture that people have. So, I've become much more alarmed about the mental health crisis, the addiction crisis, and that's why we've been organizing a movement, and why ultimately, after failing to get the politicians to do what they need to do, decided to run.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:55

      It is bizarre and illogical why we concentrate on some causes of death that are preventable and not other. It's very strange how we lock into certain diseases and certain things, but there's very little discussion about, like, the fentanyl overdoses.

   7. MSMichael Shellenberger31:13

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:13

      Which are really insane. I mean-

   9. MSMichael Shellenberger31:15

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:16

       ... I personally know of multiple people who've died from it.

   11. MSMichael Shellenberger31:18

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       And it's scary stuff. If you, you ... I'm sure you've seen the amount of fentanyl when, in relation to a penny, that it takes to kill you. It's cr- it's crazy. It's such a small amount, and they're bringing it through Mexico at an alarming rate.

   13. MSMichael Shellenberger31:33

       (sighs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       You see that lady who got arrested 'cause she had it stuffed in her vaginal cavity? Like, enough fentanyl to kill, like, a city.

   15. MSMichael Shellenberger31:40

       Oh, sure.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:41

       You see that?

   17. MSMichael Shellenberger31:41

       How about the West Point cadets that, uh ... I think it was West Point. The cadets that overdosed? I mean, there's all sorts of artists, you know? I mean, it's, it's-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:50

       Tom Petty.

   19. MSMichael Shellenberger31:51

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:51

       Prince.

   21. MSMichael Shellenberger31:52

       Yep.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:52

       Yeah.

   23. MSMichael Shellenberger31:53

       Uh, was the, the actor from The Wire ... Um, is it Michael Williams?

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       Mm-hmm. Yep, same thing.

   25. MSMichael Shellenberger31:57

       Um-

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:57

       Yep.

   27. MSMichael Shellenberger31:58

       Yeah, so it's, it's-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       Scary shit.

   29. MSMichael Shellenberger32:00

       ... you know, it's tragedy and sad and depressing. And, you know, when I went out ... When I go out and interview people on the street, I inter- ... So, I found a guy. When ... I interview guys, some- ... I put up on Twitter, went viral, because he was so honest. He's such a c- ... These guys are so ... It's really, it's actually quite wonderful how honest they were, but I was like, "What's your drug of choice?" And he said, "Heroin." And I was like, "Well, how many people are still using heroin out here?" He's like, "5%." Like, 95% of opioid users have switched to fentanyl. Can't even hardly get heroin anymore. Meth is now, they're using-

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       He's old school. He's a guy with vinyl.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. MSMichael Shellenberger45:00

      than carbon dioxide, would outweigh the benefits of lower carbon dioxide." That argument depends on looking at a really short timeframe, because the methane, while it is ... Methane, natural gas, while it is a more potent greenhouse gas, it's also shorter-lived. It breaks down in the atmosphere in a period of decades, as opposed to carbon dioxide, which is in the atmosphere for centuries.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MSMichael Shellenberger45:24

      And we worry the most about climate change in the next century, you know, in a century or two. The, the higher te- the, the higher temperatures are the temperatures that we worry the most about. But overall, I mean, look, even global ... This is new data that nobody is talking about, but basically carbon emissions globally were flat and even slightly declined over the last decade, both because of the transition from coal to natural gas and also because of less land use change, namely less conversion of forests and grasslands into farmlands, which emits a lot of greenhouse gases as well. So there's just been a lot of good news on the environmental front where y- we produce more food with less land. My view is that the worst environmental problem in the world remains the conversion of rainforests into farmland. That's what kills endangered species. It takes away their habitat. It also results in a significant amount of carbon emissions and greenhouse gas emissions. That's the main event, is you wanna protect the Amazon, we wanna protect the rainforests of Africa. Well, those trends should also all go in the right direction, but it requires the same things that we did, which is that we have greater urbanization, industrialization, peop- people moving from the, from low-efficiency, low-intensity farming to more modern forms of agriculture. And then moving, you know, the basic picture is moving away from wood and dung towards coal, oil, natural gas, and eventually to uranium. In that process, you'll reduce our environmental footprint. And the, you know, the, the final piece of that is nuclear power, which can effectively reduce humankind's en- energy footprint to near zero.

   4. JRJoe Rogan46:59

      Yeah. The ... We have to change public perception about nuclear power, right? (clears throat) That seems to me-

   5. MSMichael Shellenberger47:04

      That's the main event. That's the main event.

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:06

      Yeah.

   7. MSMichael Shellenberger47:06

      There's, it's not a ... There's technological things, but like you said, like, we're making progress on the fuels themselves that you get these fuels that can't melt down or will take longer to melt down. Where also the training is better. I always point out, you know, jet planes, the jet planes are better than they were in 1950, but the same basic technolo- it's the same basic technology that we had in 1950. Same thing with nuclear power plants. What really changes with, uh, jet planes is that the entire system is so much better. Air traffic control is better, the pilots, the safety systems. So you see this huge increase of air miles traveled and a huge decline in fatalities from aircr- from airplane crashes. Same thing with nuclear. The worst accidents were all, you know, closer to the invention of commercial nuclear power. The, you know, the, and even Fukushima, where, which was, uh, one of the worst nuclear accidents, according to the best available science, somewhere between zero and one people died from the radiation of Fukushima.

   8. JRJoe Rogan48:04

      Really, that's it?

   9. MSMichael Shellenberger48:05

      That's it. Yeah. Now, people... What really killed people was the evacuation, the dislocation, the relocation of people, which was much more exaggerated and longer-lasting than it needed to be.

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       But that place is fucked for a long time. I mean, obviously it's not good. Like, you can't use the area around that nuclear reactor for a long time. I- I-

   11. MSMichael Shellenberger48:24

       Uh, a small area, a small area, but most of the farmland is now coming back and they've been able to clean it up. I mean, really, they over-cleaned it. They scraped all of this beautiful Fukushima... 'cause it was a beautiful agricultural area, they scraped all the topsoil off that they didn't need to do. They were doing... There was a study in the British Medical Journal of the people who lived in some of the most heavily impacted areas, and they had... and they had, they tested the radiation in their bodies and the radiation in the foods and the soil, and they had levels below, you know, what was considered dangerous. So, it's just, it's just a... It was a panic. You know, it was... People were scared of radiation.

   12. JRJoe Rogan49:00

       But rightfully so, right?

   13. MSMichael Shellenberger49:00

       It went too far. It went too far.

   14. JRJoe Rogan49:02

       It went too far.

   15. MSMichael Shellenberger49:03

       Yeah. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan49:03

       Now, is that because just we're terrified of nuclear disasters to begin with-

   17. MSMichael Shellenberger49:07

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:07

       ... which is one of the reasons why it's so-

   19. MSMichael Shellenberger49:08

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:08

       ... difficult to try to convince people that nuclear power is the future?

   21. MSMichael Shellenberger49:11

       For sure.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:12

       Do you th-... Uh, are there... I mean, I know that there's some uses for nuclear waste now, productive uses for nuclear waste as a potential recyclable fuel.

   23. MSMichael Shellenberger49:21

       Yeah, there always have been. I mean, the dream was... So, yeah, I mean, over 95% of the energy is still in the used fuel rods. The dream in the '50s was that you would have basically what they called a closed loop, where you would then reuse the fuel and a pro- and, uh, reprocess the fuel. France does that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:40

       Really?

   25. MSMichael Shellenberger49:40

       Yeah. It has this huge facility, I think it's like a mile long, and they reprocess the fuel and they recycle it. Now, it's, it's also then a process that allows you to create significant quantities of plutonium, which, of course, is, is weapons-grade material. That was used to alarm people. There's some debate about whether you should be alarmed. Bill Gates is developing a new reactor that would basically do something similar. The Russians have this reactor that would be a faster reactor that would allow for basically a much more efficient use of the fuel. For me, as an outsider to the industry, I was always like, "All right, is there a shortage of uranium? No. Is it much cheaper to recycle the fuel? No." In fact, it's more expensive, because it's more complicated. So, for me, I'm satisfied that there's so little waste byproduct created. You know, all of the nuclear fuel rods, the used nuclear fuel rods, can fit on a single football field stacked 50 feet high in the United States. For me, that's a much safer, simpler, straightforward event. 22nd century, sure, we'll be recycling those fuels. We should definitely do the R&D. But right now, in California, the governor is trying to shut down our last nuclear plant-

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:52

       Why?

   27. MSMichael Shellenberger50:52

       ... at a time of blackouts.

   28. JRJoe Rogan50:54

       Why is he doing that?

   29. MSMichael Shellenberger50:55

       Ostensibly because... Well, okay, the o- ostensi-... The official reason is because... (laughs) This is so absurd, I have to laugh, is that it's causing impact to marine life. And the reason that's so absurd is that there's no evidence of any decline of fish population. And when you visit the plant, the warm water that leaves the plant, slightly warm water, it's not even that hot, and, of course, as soon as it goes into the ocean, it's like... The ocean's so vast, it becomes cold immediately. But there's all these seals and sea lions, like, hanging out on the discharge area. So, it's clean, super clean discharge water, and all these sea l-... 'Cause the sea life, they love the warm water, just like we do. So, it's a joke that it would have some negative impact on sea life. That's the ostensible reason.

   30. JRJoe Rogan51:37

       This is the one that's near San Diego?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:12:24

   Make it worse. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      "Oh, with this cold, like I better be careful. I don't wanna fuck this cold up and, and make it really-"

   2. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:04

      Make it worse.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      "... take root."

   4. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:05

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      So like, "Shit." And then I realize like, "Wow, this is only two days." I was thinking, sitting up in my bed, I'm like, "Imagine being a person that like goes through 50 years of life like this and never exercises."

   6. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:17

      Oh. Oh, absolutely.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:18

      It is-... it is a medicine-

   8. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:20

      Absolutely.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

      ... that we should, we should prescribe-

   10. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:23

       Yes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

       ... to the, the, the global population.

   12. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:25

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

       And, you know, instead we have... This is another, another problem I have with hardcore left-wing people that they, they get so crazy about ideas that they're, they, they have such blind spots. There was an article, I think it was in CNBC, or was it MSNBC, that was saying that exercise is tied to far-right extremism.

   14. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:47

       Oh, my God. I saw that. Ugh.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:48

       What the fuck are you talking about?

   16. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:50

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:51

       So marathon runners are Nazis? Like, what are you saying?

   18. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:54

       It's bizarre.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       People who do yoga are right-wing psychos? Like, what are you saying? It's-

   20. MSMichael Shellenberger1:00:59

       Well, they, was they, they were subtweeting you, I take it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       Oh, I don't know. Did they?

   22. MSMichael Shellenberger1:01:03

       (laughs) I don't know.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       I don't, I don't read any of my sub-

   24. MSMichael Shellenberger1:01:04

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:04

       If you tweet at me, you're tweeting to the abyss. I don't read anything about me.

   26. MSMichael Shellenberger1:01:08

       I think-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       But, if-

   28. MSMichael Shellenberger1:01:08

       I mean-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       ... I don't think it had anything to do with me, honestly. I think it was, they were, they were, they did mention MMA and, and fighters.

   30. MSMichael Shellenberger1:01:16

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 2:39:22