Joe Rogan Experience #1801 - David Mamet

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

David Mamet 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) And we're up and running. How are you, sir?

David Mamet 0:15 I'm great. Happy to be back in the United States. I've been in, uh, California for the last-

Joe Rogan 0:20 (laughs)

David Mamet 0:20 ... uh, little-

Joe Rogan 0:21 The People's Republic of California?

David Mamet 0:24 Yeah, exactly so.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Yeah, it's, uh, an interesting turn of events. California has become a strange new place.

David Mamet 0:31 Yes, it has.

Joe Rogan 0:32 A- almost unrecognizable. (laughs)

David Mamet 0:34 Yes. Well, it'd be recognizable to George Orwell.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Y- well, yeah, right? Even he probably been like, "Wow." H- he was probably ... If, if you could get George Orwell from, you know, the time he wrote 198- ... When did he write 84?

David Mamet 0:48 Oh, that's pretty good. I, uh, I don't know. I think it was the late '40s. We can, we can l- look it up.

Joe Rogan 0:54 And then to see, uh, the ... you know, in 2022, he was, he was in the neighborhood.

David Mamet 1:00 He-

Joe Rogan 1:00 He definitely was pretty close.

David Mamet 1:01 He was off like, oh, 1.2%.

Joe Rogan 1:03 (laughs) There it is, '49.

David Mamet 1:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05 Wow, interesting.

David Mamet 1:06 You know, George Orwell said ... He was a interesting guy. He was a cop in, um, Burma. He was a, a, a-

Joe Rogan 1:13 Really?

David Mamet 1:13 Yes. Uh, he was a hook- colonial cop, and then he was a, a roustabout, and he wrote, uh, Down and Out in Paris and London. He was a bum. And, uh, he said, "When thought control comes, it will come not from the right, but from the left."

Joe Rogan 1:27 Wonder why he thought that?

David Mamet 1:29 Well, because he got around.

Joe Rogan 1:31 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:31 I mean, he ... That guy had seen a huge bunch of life and he looked at what things were from every angle, right? He was a well-brought-up Englishman, and then he was a, a tramp and a dishwasher and a cop. And, uh, he saw it all. He saw it clearly.

Joe Rogan 1:47 But it's ... When y- ... Classically, like, when we think about depictions of totalitarianism and authoritarianism, when I was a kid, we always thought of it as being a right-wing thing. It is like a ... There was always, like, a right-wing dictator-type character that imposed censorship and authoritarianism. You didn't think of it as something that would be coming from the left.

David Mamet 2:11 Well, but, uh, you know, who was Stalin? Who was Trotsky and Lenin? They're certainly the left.

Joe Rogan 2:15 Right.

David Mamet 2:15 And, uh, Pol Pot and, uh, a- and all of the Chinese. Also, if you look at the history of this country, that the f- ... that, uh, Woodrow Wilson imposed strictures against talking about the war. Anybody who talked about the war and said a- anything that could be construed as unf- unfavorable was thrown in prison.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Really?

David Mamet 2:37 Oh, yes. Yes. They ... A lot of people were thrown in prison. A lot of people had their businesses wrecked.

Joe Rogan 2:42 What year was this?

David Mamet 2:43 Uh, Wilson ... Would be 1917.

Joe Rogan 2:45 Wow!

David Mamet 2:45 1917, 1918.

Joe Rogan 2:47 They were throwing people in jail?

David Mamet 2:49 Yes, they were. A-

Joe Rogan 2:49 For talking badly about World War I?

David Mamet 2:52 Yes. And then, of course, um, Roosevelt did the same thing.

Joe Rogan 2:58 Really?

David Mamet 2:59 Yeah, sure. And we'll look at it. Also, who did he ... He tossed all the Japanese-Americans in prison.

Joe Rogan 3:04 Right, in concentration camps.

David Mamet 3:04 He said, "Go into a concentration camp."

Joe Rogan 3:06 Yeah.

David Mamet 3:06 By the way, all of our, uh, loyal German-Americans in New York, in Yorkville, we're gonna leave them alone 'cause they're white. Meanwhile, the w- the w- Yorkville, New York and Baltimore were full of Nazi spies. They were, they were ... Uh, you could see the shipping being torpedoed from the beach at Coney Island 'cause they were giving away all that information. Um, s- ... The left has always believed that the, uh, the idea of fascism, i- means, uh, a g- a bundle, everything's together, everything's for the state, nothing against the state, nothing outside of the state, as, as Mussolini said. And with the exception of, of those particular fascists, uh, uh, the Nazis, uh, it's always been the left, because they, they don't believe in the individual.

Joe Rogan 3:51 So, you, you think that that's the root cause of it, not believing in the individual, believing in the collective, that that automatically lends itself to e- erasing individual rights?

David Mamet 4:05 Yes. I mean, it also goes back to the, um, to the enlightenment, to the idea that God doesn't exist and the idea that, uh, human being is this ... is th- is the measure of all things. Well, if the human being is the measure of all things, what does that mean our reason? And our reason is completely flawed. All of us do things every day which are unreasonable, sinful, wrong, and absurd, right? And the reasonable person says, "Wait a second. Why did I do that? What do I have to refer to in my confusion and my self-loathing?" Well, the Bible was a pretty good bet, you know, for if the ch- ... Hebrew Bible for 6,000 years, right? The kn- Christian Bible for two thous- ... It's a pretty good bet. Say, "Wait a second. Let's talk about human nature. You really aren't that smart. You really aren't in charge of the world. Y- you really aren't, although do you think you are, you think that 'cause you're human. But God's in charge of the world, and there's a certain way things are. And if you'd like to get out of your wretched self-consciousness and self-delusion, you better get your ass into church."

Joe Rogan 5:12 But don't you think that ... You know, when atheists talk about religion and they criticize, uh, organized religion and criticize the Bible, they, they talk about things that are in the Bible that seem preposterous, right? They talk about people rising from the dead and walking on water, particularly the Old Testament, right? Like, to use that as a guidebook for life, you have to kind of ignore some of the stuff that doesn't make sense.

David Mamet 5:41 Well-

Joe Rogan 5:41 Don't you think?

David Mamet 5:42 Th- the Bible's a myth, okay? The Bible-

Joe Rogan 5:45 Right.

David Mamet 5:45 ... especially the Hew- ... The Christian Bible comes out of the, the Jewish Bible. It's a, it's a retelling of the story in a different way. But the Jewish Bible is a myth, and the myth is the myth of creation and the myth of human experience. So what it does is s- uh, chapter by chapter, story by story, it-... challenges us with disturbing and bizarre images in which it says, "Wh- why don't you try to understand this? See if you can understand this. What does it really mean to escape from Egypt? Does it mean escaping from your inner pharaoh? What does it really mean to part the Red Sea?" So these, these stories are told ... uh, any myth is a dramatic retelling of an underlying reality that can't be expressed rationally, right? So the atheists say, "Everything can be expressed rationally. For example, you know that the earth is burning up. You can tell that because sometimes things get warmer and sometimes things get colder. You can also tell that when things get colder, that's obviously because the earth is burning up, because the sun is melting the glaciers and the glaciers are raising the temperature. You can also tell, of course, that to be fair to everyone, children change sex. You know that, don't you? And you can tell that men can compete as women and women compete as men." This is all human confusion because we trust our senses and we trust our mind, and the mind just ... it doesn't work real good. We're very cunning, but we aren't very smart, human beings. And that's the message of the Bible. And so if you look at, um, Moses ... sorry, Moses. Moses was ... they tried to ... the Egyptians tried to kill him all of his life. The Egyptians tried to kill. He didn't have any trouble with the Egyptians 'cause God was on his side. He had trouble with the Jews 'cause the Jews were always saying, "Who the hell do you think you are?" So that's, that ... the, the all, the Old Testament is the story of atheists really, saying, "Who the hell do you think you are?"

Joe Rogan 7:42 So when, when you're talking about the Bible, right? What ... I mean, and the lessons in the Bible, isn't part of the problem is that you're ... people translated it from ancient Hebrew to Latin to Greek and all these other languages and then eventually to English. Like a lot's lost along the way, right? And a lot is open to interpretation. Like a lot of what we're talking about in these myths and stories that people take as factual occurrences, they probably were some sort of a ... there's some sort of a lesson in the myth, some sort of allegory. There's, there's, there's things about these stories that probably have hints of truth, but isn't it hard to kind of decipher it all-

David Mamet 8:24 Oh, that's a-

Joe Rogan 8:24 ... if you can't speak the mother language?

David Mamet 8:26 That's a very good question. So when a ... uh, first of all, let me ask you a qu- okay, I'm gonna tell you a story, okay?

Joe Rogan 8:30 Okay.

David Mamet 8:31 These two octopuses walk into a, a, a, a laundromat.

Joe Rogan 8:34 Okay.

David Mamet 8:35 See? That's what a myth is. I said, "Two octopuses walk into a laundromat," and you didn't say, "Wait a second. Octopuses can't walk and they wouldn't be in a laundromat."

Joe Rogan 8:44 Well, I thought about it, but I'm being polite.

David Mamet 8:46 (laughs) So what you said is, "Yeah, tell me more." Okay.

Joe Rogan 8:49 I'm, well, hoping it's a good joke.

David Mamet 8:50 Okay. Well, I'll get to that.

Joe Rogan 8:52 (laughs)

David Mamet 8:52 But this ... the same thing with the, the Bible is really two octopuses walk into a laundromat. So I'm gonna tell you a story. I want you to suspe- suspend your disbelief because there's something in this story you might get a kick out of.

Joe Rogan 9:04 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 9:04 You might ... and you might ... there might be some wisdom in it. There might yes and might no, but if you listen as you would to a story, which the Bible is, it's a myth, rather than to a, a factual retelling, you might get a kick out of it. Now, as far as a translation goes, I can read the Bible in Hebrew 'cause I lear- started learning when I was 40 or s- it's an easy language. And there were a lot of mistranslations, uh, but the, the, the main point is not the mistranslations 'cause there are some pretty good English translations too, but the main point is saying that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense.

Joe Rogan 9:37 So what do you think the Bible is? Do you think the Bible is a bunch of very wise people got together and they formed these stories to sort of illustrate the folly of mankind and how one needs to have, like, a moral compass and guiding principles that are set in stone and that you have these rules to live your life in a moral and just way and that'll make for a better society? Like where do you, what do you think the Bible actually is?

David Mamet 10:09 Well, uh, uh, a friend of mine, a rabbi, was, uh, uh, is a Reform rabbi, was applying to get into an Orthodox, uh, yeshiva, an Orthodox, uh, college, and he's a Reform rabbi. So the guy says, he says, "You have very good credentials and you're very well learned. Do you think the Bible is literally the work of God?" The rabbi says, "No." So the guy says, "Well, is it possible?" Rabbi says, "Yes." Guy says, "Okay, you're in." Right?

Joe Rogan 10:36 (laughs)

David Mamet 10:37 So there's Dennis Prager, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:39 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 10:39 Who, um, I'm crazy about, said the other day, he said, "You know, I, I don't believe in the Torah, the Jewish Bible, because of God." He said, "I believe in God because of the Torah." So if you read the Torah, the Jewish Bible, and the Christian Bible's just an extension of that, you say, "My God, this is incredible wisdom." This goes back to the beginning of time. People who have tried to figure out everything-

Joe Rogan 11:05 Right.

David Mamet 11:05 And they, they didn't have the language that we have, but they had the language that they had and this was thousands of years of experience progressed and compressed into a myth. So we know that this is true 'cause, like, uh, liberals have always been in love with the myths, es- especially Jews, with the myths of other cultures, right? We say how beautiful it is that this culture has that myth, that the Haidan Indians say the world was formed by a large beaver, and when the beaver slapped his tail like that, it made the oceans, and when the blah, blah, blah. It's a gorgeous myth.

Joe Rogan 11:39 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 11:40 Nobody says of that myth, "Wait a second, you can't have a beaver that big." Right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:46 That's what I would say.

David Mamet 11:47 Yeah? (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 11:47 I would step in and go, "Hey man."

David Mamet 11:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:51 (laughs) Yeah, but there's a purpose to having myths, right? This is like-

David Mamet 11:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:55 ... Joseph Campbell's The, The Hero's Journey, all that stuff.

David Mamet 11:58 That's right.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Yeah.

David Mamet 11:59 There's a pur- of course there is because we need myths, right? So when you destroy the old myths, you're always gonna get a new myth because we need to mythologize our life. Uh, uh, uh, we need to have something to hold onto.

Joe Rogan 12:12 I've been very curious about this-

David Mamet 12:14 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 12:14 ... lately 'cause it seems like, uh, as you were saying, like, from the left, you're getting a lot of what seems like-... very cult-like behavior, and this very cult-like, this ignoring of basic truth to fit a narrative. And, uh, I think that in the absence of religion, it's almost like we're hardwired for some sort of, some sort of guidelines that we all collectively agree to follow, whether it's ag- agreed... whether it's Judaism or, you know, Mormonism, or whatever it is, like, co- a collective group of guidelines. It's almost like human beings are hardwired to follow some sort of a guideline. And if we don't have one, we create one. And even though we don't say it's a religion, we behave exactly if it's a religion. Like, if you questioned it at all-

David Mamet 13:09 There's no question about it.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Yeah, yeah. That's, that's what's going on right now, right?

David Mamet 13:12 Sure. There's no question about it. So what the left is, is... I hope nobody's listening when I say this 'cause it's kind of, uh, it's, uh, extreme. It's-

Joe Rogan 13:21 No one's gonna listen. Go on.

David Mamet 13:22 It's a, it's a death cult. It's a cult about death. It's... And that's why I wanna talk about my, my outfit today.

Joe Rogan 13:28 Okay.

David Mamet 13:29 That-

Joe Rogan 13:29 Tell me about your outfit.

David Mamet 13:30 I, I'll get there in a second because I'm-

Joe Rogan 13:31 (laughs)

David Mamet 13:31 I spent a couple of years, uh, of COVID thinking, "I just don't get it." I'm a child of the mid-century, you know, my dads and my uncles, everybody I knew went through the war. My f- f- grandfather fought in World War I. I've made a living when I should've been in jail, right, or, uh, homeless 'cause I don't have any talents except writing. And because I could do that, I made a living of a wonderful family because of America, right? That the, the... And I'm a Jew, and I'm not getting killed 'cause I live in America. And I saw the country transform. When I was a kid and I used to go down Southern, there were chain gangs and there were lynchings and there were separate... That's pretty gosh-darn close. And those people who were that... being treated that way, their great-grandparents had been slaves. And now we see that racism is, in effect, gone. There's certain prejudices of whites against Blacks. Well, duh. There's certain prejudices of Blacks against whites. But it's gone. We see that gays who were... e- committed suicide or lived their life in terror or were blacklisted or, um, uh, uh, are now normalized. These are wonderful things.

Joe Rogan 14:40 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 14:41 This is a magnificent country that we live in. And to see it go to shit in front of my eyes, where half, half the country said, "You know what? No. I, I'm not ready to die yet. I'm not gonna submit to the death cult. I don't worship the sun. I don't think the sun is trying to kill us."

Joe Rogan 14:59 Why, why do you think it's a death cult? Like, what, what do you, what are you saying?

David Mamet 15:02 Because-

Joe Rogan 15:03 What about it is death cult?

David Mamet 15:05 Well, lookit, if you say, uh, uh, as I've heard, perhaps you have... So, people say, "You know, my kids don't want to have kids because we live in such a dreadful place."

Joe Rogan 15:11 I joke around about that on stage. I'm like, "Yeah, why would you want to have kids today with all the books and medicine and shit?"

David Mamet 15:16 Yeah, really. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:17 (laughs) It's so stupid. The reason why people are here is because people had sex before they even had a language.

David Mamet 15:23 Yeah. And people say, "Well, wait a second. Uh, the seas are rising. The seas are rising. Al- although the seas are rising, I'm gonna buy a house in Martha's Vineyard," right?

Joe Rogan 15:33 Right.

David Mamet 15:34 And although we're f- poisoning the atmosphere with carbon dioxide and inert gas, I'm gonna fly in my private plane that b- been s- uh, three-

Joe Rogan 15:44 Right.

David Mamet 15:44 ... 3,000, blah, blah, blah. And there's... And, uh, uh, you know what also? There's no such thing ab- as men and women. I know people have, um, overlooked this for a million years of human history, but now we know it's true, so we have to teach our chil- children this, right? And s-

Joe Rogan 16:00 I don't think they're saying there's no such thing as men and women. They're saying it's flexible and you could be whatever you want.

David Mamet 16:05 Well, yeah, except anybody who's ever been in the backseat of a Chevy knows it's not flexible, right? You can behave in any way that you want, right? But there are men and there are women saying, "No, no, no, that's not a, that's not a fact. That's not a fact, and you mustn't mentioned it."

Joe Rogan 16:21 Have you ever, uh, read any of Douglas Murray?

David Mamet 16:23 No.

Joe Rogan 16:24 D- Douglas Murray was a brilliant guy, a British intellectual. He's, he said something that I've never forgot. I, I, I keep harping on it, that at the end of every civilization, when a civilization starts to crumble, they become obsessed with gender. They become obsessed with swapping gender, acting out-

David Mamet 16:40 Sure, yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:41 ... different genders, like, g- gender nonconformity. And he, he doesn't have an answer why, but it seems like they... when things... w- for whatever it is, whatever cause of society collapsing, there's something where they become obsessed with definitions and-

David Mamet 16:59 Well-

Joe Rogan 16:59 ... particularly gender definitions.

David Mamet 17:01 Well, uh, definite- yes, they become obsessed with definition. They also become obsessed with sex because it offers experience, right? The problem is, if you become sex... You know, when I was a kid, we used this joke about say, "You know what? I betcha if we got an old guy, he could rent a post office box, we could get Playboy."

Joe Rogan 17:23 (laughs)

David Mamet 17:23 Right? Now, Playboy, those Playboys, they look like the Shipping News, right?

Joe Rogan 17:28 I know.

David Mamet 17:28 But the problem is you can just sh- chase pornography so far, right? We'll say, "We'll show this, we'll show that, we'll do this, we'll do that." Everything's permitted. And then people get bored. So what's happening in the younger generation, in their 20s, they're bored with sex. They don't wanna have sex. They want to stay in their rooms with porn. They don't want to get married. They don't want to have kids. And-

Joe Rogan 17:48 Really?

David Mamet 17:49 Yes. And Allen Bloom talked about this, the great Allen Bloom. In 1988, he wrote a book called the... I think it's called The Death of the American Mind. And he said that he saw at the University of Chicago that there was no eros, uh, the, the longing for the other, that the kids weren't longing for the other. They also weren't longing for the other in wisdom. They weren't interested in wisdom. They-

Joe Rogan 18:11 What year was this, when you're saying?

David Mamet 18:12 '88.

Joe Rogan 18:14 Really?

David Mamet 18:14 The Closing of the American Mind-

Joe Rogan 18:15 God, I was a kid in '88, and we were definitely interested in sex. (laughs)

David Mamet 18:18 Well, me too, but, you know-

Joe Rogan 18:19 I don't know if that's-

David Mamet 18:19 ... maybe you slept in a- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:21 I don't know if that's accurate. I mean, that's a gross generalization that kids aren't... I think kids are very interested in sex. I think, uh, there's, there's a whole host of problems with people getting i- interested in pornography, and one of them is that they wear themselves out beating off all day-

David Mamet 18:36 Well, sure.

Joe Rogan 18:36 ... and then they don't have any energy for the opposite sex. And also, there's the thing that it's just so accessible.You know, children are so impulsive, k- young kids are so impulsive. You get a 20-year-old kid or an 18-year-old kid, you give them a phone, he's gonna just watch porn on it. They're, they're not going to be able to help themselves, especially if they never saw it before and now they have access to it anytime they want on their iPad. Like, ugh.

David Mamet 18:59 Well, so here's the thing about, uh ... the problem with our society, the problem with our country, the problem with the West is prosperity. 'Cause n- 'cause it's ... what survives prosperity, right? What, what billionaire's kid works for a living?

Joe Rogan 19:14 Right. Very few.

David Mamet 19:15 None of them, because they-

Joe Rogan 19:16 Yeah.

David Mamet 19:17 None of them. W- you no w-

Joe Rogan 19:19 Doesn't Donald Trump Jr. work for a living?

David Mamet 19:21 Oh, yeah, he does. Okay. I, I g- I'll give him a pass, but he comes from an extraordinary family.

Joe Rogan 19:25 When you go- you look at a, a person who's a, like ... I know a lot of people give him shit, but as, when it comes to, like, billionaires' kids, he's about as good off as I've ever seen one.

David Mamet 19:34 Also, he's, he's a wonderful speaker. He's li- you know, he's a g- good thinker and a wonderful speaker. But what happens is this country is the wealthiest, the most prosperous, the safest, until recently, in human history. And the question is, what are you gonna do when the middle class is gone? There's nobody ... the merchants are gone, the farmers are gone, the boot makers are gone. The middle class and the industrialists, the, uh, the, uh, and the, and the people who ... the agriculturists thought about the world al- e- every moment of the day. If you owned a shoe store, right, and you were an independent contractor, you had to say, "My god, what does this leather cost? What can I sell it for? What happens if I am late with my payment? Is this a good enough grade? Can I be nice to this person who's a son of a bitch? Can I get them to pay a little bit more? What is my rent cost? What happens if it rains tomorrow?" These are the, the concerns of everybody in the middle class. But when the middle class is gone, you got people at the, the bottom of the food chain who were, you know, gang raised on the streets, 'cause there's no alternative to them, or very little, and people who are gang raised in the elite schools, and they're both taught there's no reason to work, that strife is error. That's what th- that's what they're taught. To have to strive for something is wrong. It should either be free or it should be easy, but to pay for your school is wrong. Uh, someone should pay for the school, right? To have to pay for that, um, iPhone is wrong. I should be able to go into the store and take it out, right? So if no one's ... if the middle class is not along t- around to say, "Wait a second, I'm in charge here," right? "I pay the effing taxes. I'm in charge." The cops are gonna come take you to jail if you steal from the store. No, not anymore, right? And we're gonna let your line die out if you're a billionaire and you're engaged in child pornography and money laundering, you know, and, and bribing the president of the United States. We're gonna send you to jail. W- we'll say there's no rules anymore. It was the middle class that had to insist upon the rules, 'cause if they didn't have certainty, they couldn't live. They h- needed to know what the results of their actions were gonna bring about, right? Because if they didn't, they couldn't order the leather. They couldn't sign a lease, or they ... uh, right? They couldn't throw the robber out of the, out of the store. So they were involved in, in human interaction every moment of every day. And that's the history of America up until recently.

Joe Rogan 22:08 So what went wrong?

David Mamet 22:10 Well, w- what went wrong is prosperity, right? That civilizations die, like anything else dies. Things which are organic, means they're gonna die. Say something's organic. It was given life, it means it's gonna mature and die. So the question is, what do you do when it comes into a final stage? You got a tree, starts as a little seed, blah, blah, blah. Becomes a tree, uh, i- it gets tall- taller and taller and taller. Eventually, it qui- ... as they say, goes to seed. It gives all of this energy. It says, "Geez, I'm dying now. I'm gonna put all my energy not into making branches, but into making seeds, 'cause I gotta make sure I, I can continue." That's what you say when something's gone to seed. The only thing you can do with that tree is prune it. If you prune it, you can extend its life. You can't extend its life forever, but you can extend its life. So what the conservatives are saying now with the Trump phenomenon and the Tea Party is, "It's time to prune it. Yes, we're incredibly prosperous, and yes, that has some downsides, but God put us here for a reason. This is a magnificent country. Let's prune it." Right? "Let's prune the government. Let's go back to, uh, religion, and let's put the, uh, the human behavior back in the, the hands of the individual rather than the state."

Joe Rogan 23:27 But how does that erase the problem of prosperity? 'Cause it's, it seem- w- what is th- wha- uh, what is, why does prosperity cause all the calamity that we're seeing today, all the problems?

David Mamet 23:38 It's, it, it, it's inevitable, just as ... uh, uh, uh, I wanted to talk about this, right?

Joe Rogan 23:43 Okay.

David Mamet 23:43 Okay. So I'm, I'm about 75. Okay? So I'm-

Joe Rogan 23:46 You look great.

David Mamet 23:47 Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.

Joe Rogan 23:48 You really do.

David Mamet 23:49 Ju- jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Yeah, man. It's amazing. It's working.

David Mamet 23:52 Ain't it?

Joe Rogan 23:53 You know, a lot of 75-year-olds are fucking falling apart.

David Mamet 23:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:56 You, you look great.

David Mamet 23:57 Yeah. My, my, my teacher said, "You should also re- uh, uh, you know, so compete in the seniors." You know, it's the ... at age 50, compete in the seniors. So he goes, "Where's the, where's the honor in that? (laughs) To whomp some 50-year-old?" No.

Joe Rogan 24:09 That's hilarious. You as a 75 are looking at, at 50-year-olds like they're old men.

David Mamet 24:14 Y- yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:15 (laughs)

David Mamet 24:15 And so I moved out ... My, my wife says one day, my lovely wife, she says she wants to move from Boston to LA. So I said, "Yes. Yes, dear." I said ... oh, you got some more coffee?

Joe Rogan 24:25 Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah.

David Mamet 24:26 Thanks a lot. So I move out to LA. So thank you. So I'm feeling okay. I'm whatever I was. I was like 55 years old, had a magnificent career as a playwright and a novelist and a movie maker and TV, blah, blah, blah. Wonderful time. Da, da, da.I guess it's just time for me to learn how to play golf or something.

Joe Rogan 24:48 (laughs)

David Mamet 24:48 Because I kept saying, "You know, I've been where I'm going, I've been where I'm going. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine." It's a bunch of bullshit, right? So anyway, I just done a movie with Eddie O'Neill, Ed O'Neill, you know Ed.

Joe Rogan 24:58 I love Ed.

David Mamet 24:59 Me too. Married with children of, uh, what do you call it? Modern Family. Known him forever.

Joe Rogan 25:05 Black belt in jiu-jitsu.

David Mamet 25:06 You bet.

Joe Rogan 25:07 Yeah.

David Mamet 25:07 And so, there I am, and I was doing a movie with Ed in New York, and he says, "Man, you got to come out to LA. If you do, I'm gonna introduce you to these guys, the Gracies." And he says, "There's this guy, Rorion Gracie." And Ed is a, he's a big guy. He's like 6'3", big guy. He had a walk-on and a cup of coffee with the Steelers. He's a tough son of a bitch. He says, "These guys, I've never seen anything like it." Okay, so I move out to LA. The first day I'm at a restaurant, and there's Ed O'Neill. I say, "Ed, baby, how are you?" He says, "Hey, Dave, welcome, welcome, welcome." Cup of coffee. I said, "Oh, you got to tell me about these jiu-jitsu guys." He says, "Oh, yeah, they're next door." So he takes me next door, and it's an Otto Magno Street Sports. And that's how I got into jiu-jitsu.

Joe Rogan 25:50 Ah.

David Mamet 25:51 Okay, so I'm into jiu-jitsu, jiu-jitsu, blah, blah, blah. So as you know, you know, it's a very close community because there's no nonsense, right?

Joe Rogan 26:02 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 26:02 You are what you are.

Joe Rogan 26:03 Yeah.

David Mamet 26:03 And you-

Joe Rogan 26:04 Can't fake it.

David Mamet 26:05 And it's a very close, a wonderful community. So I did a favor for some guy, I can't, can't remember what it was. One of the guys, a lot of guys did favors for me. And I admired his jacket as something. He says, "Oh, you like that jacket?" Ta-da. This is the second one. He says it's this, uh, a company called Langlitz. It's in Portland, Oregon. They make the same things in a garage, been there forever.

Joe Rogan 26:28 That's this, uh-

David Mamet 26:29 That guy.

Joe Rogan 26:30 ... jacket that you gave me.

David Mamet 26:30 Yeah. He says they're the best jackets in the world. He gives it to me, right? It's a f- a flight jacket. So I'm thinking, "Irk, irk, irk, irk, irk." Wearing the flight jacket, working in a flight jacket. And so later I'm having l- lunch with somebody else and, and, and I, I s- he- I s- he admires the jacket. I say, "It's great." I said, "But you know, I'm kind of a fashion maven. I've been wearing jeans and T-shirt all my life, but you know, I kind of like, I had a clothing company and I do a lot of designs for movies and so forth." I said, "I feel kind of queasy about it because it's a flight jacket, but I don't know how to fly a plane." So he says, "Come on," walks me across the street to the Santa Monica Airport.

Joe Rogan 27:10 (laughs)

David Mamet 27:11 Introduces me to a guy, and 20 minutes later, I'm flying a plane with this guy.

Joe Rogan 27:15 20 minutes later? (laughs)

David Mamet 27:15 Yeah, because that's... And I became a pilot.

Joe Rogan 27:18 (laughs)

David Mamet 27:19 So, so that's... But the... 'Cause that's the, that's the way... That's the tradition in aviation. Someone says, you know, "Hi, here I am in a flight school. I kind of think I want to fly a plane." You expect them to say, "Well, you know, a plane." But they don't. They say, "Come on," and they stick you in the airplane.

Joe Rogan 27:35 They just want to grab you while you're curious.

David Mamet 27:37 Yeah. No, they-

Joe Rogan 27:38 Get you up there.

David Mamet 27:38 They... 'Cause that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 27:38 Let's go.

David Mamet 27:38 Exactly so.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Yeah.

David Mamet 27:39 But that's all the... That's the answer.

Joe Rogan 27:41 Right.

David Mamet 27:41 You know, the answer's going to be in the air. So what I realize as I'm getting dr- dressed is, I thought I was dead. I was 55 years old, magnificent wife, lovely couple of bucks, blah, blah, blah. I discovered these two things that changed my life.

Joe Rogan 27:56 So you were kind of ready to wind it down, and instead you found these two fascinating new interests.

David Mamet 28:01 Yeah. So that's what I think about prosperity, right? That there are fascinating new interests. We don't have to be dead.

Joe Rogan 28:09 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 28:09 W- we can find and we c- f- fascinating new interests, fascinating new people. Like Bari Weiss, right, is starting a university here in, in, in Austin.

Joe Rogan 28:17 Yeah.

David Mamet 28:17 And I'm, I'm playing along with her. There are wonderful things that we can do rather than saying, "You know what? I guess we as a country, we're going to sit down and pl- and we're gonna play golf til we die."

Joe Rogan 28:27 Why do you think though, uh, still... Well, I'm, I'm, I'm curious myself. I'm, I'm asking you this because I'm trying to figure it out myself as well. Like, what is it about prosperity? Is it just as simply as, like, we're spoiled? Like spoiled kids? The kids of-

David Mamet 28:43 No.

Joe Rogan 28:43 ... of rich people? Like tend... Like billionaire sons tend to be spoiled and n- not have good character?

David Mamet 28:49 No.

Joe Rogan 28:50 Is it... What a- what about prosperity is ruining this country?

David Mamet 28:55 It's not that it's ruining the country, it's that the country is or- is organic. You can't say of somebody who's 80, what's wh- why is he behaving like that? What, whatever kind of life he had... Energy drains. Energy which is used... It's like gasoline. Any of the energy that's used on A cannot be used on B.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 29:14 Right? Alex- Alexander the Great died when he was 33, right? Energy that's used at this point in your life is probably going to be decreased at that point in your life. So what you learn as you get older is you have to conserve energy. So the, the old thing is you should never try any new, new business, uh, practices after you're 60. Because the stuff that I did when I was 20, 25, I can't do anymore. I have a certain amount I hope of increased wisdom and knowledge, but I have a decreased fund of energy. So the question is what are you going to spend the energy on? So when we come to a point that has never been experienced in human history, of magnificent prosperity, eq- uh, freedom, uh, freedom from want, what do we see? That for the first time in human history, rather than worrying about, "How am I going to get enough calories to keep from dying?" they worry about, "How can I lose weight?"

Joe Rogan 30:07 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 30:07 Right? Rather than saying thank God, you know, we became the, the power, the world power, the greatest power the world's ever known in the 20th century. But wait a second, here we still are, what do we do now? Huh. What about the Vietnam War? Let's fight that. That's a good idea. Although we said from the first there's no particular end to it and we can't win it. W- now we've got into it, how do we get out of it? So the problem about prosperity is you, one of them is you make choices, and then you have such an infrastructure you can't correct them. Right? That, th- th- that, that gets us into the Vietnam War. You make choices, let's have a representative government, and it's so powerful that they, they, uh, of course are going to take on them- on themselves the responsibility of ru- running your life. Because somebody goes into Congress, they say, "Okay, you know, ma- da, da, da, da." They say...Ho-, uh, Wa- Washington is Hollywood for ugly people, right?

Joe Rogan 31:06 Right.

David Mamet 31:06 So here I am, I'm not very good at anything, but I can smile and kiss babies. Oh, guess what? I can have all the sex I want, and I can go on TV, and I can gain power, and I can, uh, raise money to gain power and gain power to raise money. What else can I do? I can trade favors with that guy over there. He wants to build a bridge in Alabama. I know it's a bunch of bullshit, but I wanna build a courthouse in Louisiana. So we'll trade favors, right? And so the government becomes so powerful. They say, "Well, let's have an income tax." Okay, 1%, good. 2%, good. Now, you live in California, that's 60% of your income. It doesn't make any sense, right? The government is in charge of your pocketbook. They're in charge of everything. But it w- it but it got that way because of prosperity. So the, uh, the Asians, uh, some of the Asian sects, they say that a b- successful man, when he turns 56, 60 years old, he says, "Okay, good. I'm gonna become a monk now." Right? It makes some sense. The question is, how do you correct for the, uh, accelerated decay of age? 'Cause people will decay in age. A- all, um, human endeavor decays with age. Right? Wh- where's ancient Greece? Where's Rome?

Joe Rogan 32:27 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 32:27 Great Britain was the greatest power in the history of the world in August of 1914. You know, where were they at, at, uh, two, uh, four years later? Uh, that, that's inevitable. So what the conservatives are saying is, "We don't know, but we got a good guide. That guide is called the Constitution. Let's go back to this simple 20-page document about how the co- the country should be run, and let's stick to it, 'cause that's all, that, that got us here. Let's, let's not, let's not say it's a living constitution."

Joe Rogan 32:59 I'm still confused at how the, this idea of prosperity affects the left more than it affects the right.

David Mamet 33:07 It affects everyone.

Joe Rogan 33:08 It affects everyone, but like, why is it that you, you seem to be, uh, concentrating on the, the left is responsible for this sort of m- decay that we're in?

David Mamet 33:19 No.

Joe Rogan 33:19 But- No?

David Mamet 33:20 Ah, good.

Joe Rogan 33:21 So prosperity's re- responsible for it? The left is more susceptible? Like, what are you saying?

David Mamet 33:26 It occurred to me, um, just 'cause I, I spent this, you know, I worked, wr- wrote this book. I spent a couple years writing these essays. I said, "You don't understand." I was asking myself the same questions you're asking me. How did we get here? Why, why, why? And I look at all these people in office, you know, we call them politicians, and most of them are thugs and whores and thieves and fools and blah, blah, blah.

Joe Rogan 33:46 He said that, not me.

David Mamet 33:47 What, I said that? Well, you know, you know it's-

Joe Rogan 33:48 (laughs)

David Mamet 33:49 ... you know it's true.

Joe Rogan 33:50 I know.

David Mamet 33:50 There, there are, there are some exceptions, but I thought, "Well, wait a second. Who would've thought that those were gonna be the politicians?" Well, everybody who wrote the Constitution thought that.

Joe Rogan 33:59 Right.

David Mamet 33:59 E- e- everybody who, who ever read the Bible thought that, 'cause that's what happens when people have power. So I thought, "But wait a second. These people, you know, these people in high office, is it possible that they had the power to, to warp a civilization so that we dealt with prosperity through fear?" 'Cause that's what we see around us all the time. It's called, uh, it's called anger, the anger of the left. It's not anger. It's really fear. Is it pos- ... Why would ... These people are idiots, right? And you know, I'm not gonna mention any names, but, you know, you, you people can fill in your own. They're, they're idiots who say that we have to get out of, uh, Afghanistan and leave everything there, or we have to give Iran the nuclear bomb, or that we have to stop ti- digging for oil though we're gonna import oil, et cetera, cetera, cetera. The, uh, they're fools. What happened was not that they caused the decay of the civilization. What happened was that the civilization went through a transition and they came out of the woodwork.

Joe Rogan 35:00 They came out of the woodwork how so? Like ...

David Mamet 35:02 Well, th- look at this. Anybody ever meet any good teachers? Maybe a couple, right?

Joe Rogan 35:09 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 35:09 But we don't r- ... We remember lovingly that one good teacher that we might have met.

Joe Rogan 35:15 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 35:15 But we remember with shame and hatred the teacher who abused us, who humiliated us, who, uh, dissed us, who called us stupid. We remember those all our lives.

Joe Rogan 35:26 Sure.

David Mamet 35:26 We always have that dream. Every human, a- American anyway, has that dream about, "I forgot to do my homework. What shall I do? I have to kill myself." Right? Teachers down through, uh, history, at l- at least through Western history, have ... They're kind of a, they're kind of a lower middle class. They don't have very high skills. And, um, Milton Friedman said if you took the same skills that a teacher has in a public school into the workplace, he might make 55% of what he makes. And they're, they're, they're treated as if, they, or were treated as if they were, um, uh, good and powerful and hardworking. Well, maybe a few are, but, you know, they aren't any better or worse than you and me. But they're kind of at the bottom of the food chain socially, kind of hanging on, always hanging onto the, the-

Joe Rogan 36:21 Public school teachers.

David Mamet 36:22 Exactly. Hang-

Joe Rogan 36:24 Yeah.

David Mamet 36:24 You know, and as I say, some of them ha- have been, uh, have been magnificent and some haven't. So these people have something, uh, very ... They discovered something very, very powerful, and what they discovered was fascism, and meaning the group, right? So they say, "Well, wait a second. I myself am nothing. I gotta smile at Mr. and Mrs. Smith over there and tell her how good Johnny's doing, but I don't give a shit about that kid and I got my own problems. Leave me alone." They form a union. The union becomes one of the biggest, maybe the biggest, um, donor to the Democratic Party. So all of a sudden, they're in charge of a large extent of the Democratic Party and the De- and ... because the Democrats, you know, being human beings, wanna stay in power and wanna be rich, okay? So they say, "Well, let me kiss the ass of the teachers union."How can I do that? Hmm, say the teacher's union. You know what? I'm tired of being pow- powerless. I'd like to be powerful. I'm gonna say that white people are, are no good, and that's what we're gonna teach, a- and I'm gonna call it critical race theory. Happened to my son, he went to school. Yeah, that's a good idea. S- person B says, "You know what? I got a great idea. Kids love talking about sex. I'm gonna say that there's no such thing as m- man or woman, and I'm gonna start teaching kindergartners there."

Joe Rogan 37:47 Yeah, but this is not, like, how they decided to do it. Like, the idea behind critical race theory, I believe, was that they thought that there was a lack of either appreciation or education about the history of the United States, particularly the history of racism and slavery and Jim Crow laws and segregation and redlining, and all these different aspects that have led to this disproportionate number of African Americans in s- in prison and in, in, in these crime-ridden, gang-ridden neighborhoods, and trying to come up with some sort of a, eh, eh, educational method of explaining some of the holes in our history that haven't been discussed. The problem that rational people have about it is that we're like, with any concept, sometimes it starts with good intentions, and then along the way, you have bad actors who get involved and they use it for their own gain. And they use a movement of real concern, a, a, a, a thing that has like, a, a genuine origin and fact and history, and then they start using it... You know, the, the, the worst, uh, term I've heard is b- like, uh, you're a race hustler. And there's a lot of people that elevate their careers by taking these ideas of critical race theory, and then they get hired by universities or hired by corporations to give speeches, and they wind up making exorbitant amounts of money. And they keep making more and more-

David Mamet 39:22 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 39:22 ... inflammatory statements, and the more outrageous these statements get, and they put them on Twitter, and they make, they write blogs and articles and op-eds, and these outrageous statements get a lot of heat behind them, and then they get more and more calls for these, these speaking gigs.

David Mamet 39:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:37 And they wind up making a lot of money, and they, they make the discourse extremely toxic. So instead of having conversations about the history of it, then it starts being all people are racist.

David Mamet 39:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:49 All people have biases and Black people can't be racist, because they don't have power, and racism is only a thing that white people can ... Which is ridiculous, right?

David Mamet 39:59 Well, yes.

Joe Rogan 40:00 Uh, uh, and, but, but there

Narrator 40:01 There is power.

Joe Rogan 40:01 This is where it comes from. Right, of course, but this is where it comes from. It comes from people taking an idea that has some merit, and you take it to a point where people are, they're either exaggerating or changing that idea to suit their own purposes as a speaker and as a person who reflects these ideas.

David Mamet 40:22 Yeah, I got no problem with that. They're a bunch of thugs, but you know, there's thugs on both sides of the aisle, and we'd all like to make money.

Joe Rogan 40:28 Sure.

David Mamet 40:28 My, my point is that it, it doesn't have a place in the schools. That the schools should just... I got a friend of mine, she's a Black woman, and she was, and, and her k- uh, and she took her kids out of school, event- eventually had to go to, um, Catholic school, because she went to school and she was, uh, uh, objecting to what they were teaching about-

Joe Rogan 40:46 What were they teaching?

David Mamet 40:47 Well, the, what they were teaching was that Black people are oppressed, and that Black people have always been oppressed. And she said, "Wait a second." She said, "That's, that, uh, who are you, some 22-year-old jumped up white girl, to be telling me about racism?" She says, "If there's anything that I want my children to know about race, I'll tell 'em." So that's what I'm objecting to-

Joe Rogan 41:09 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 41:09 ... is the, the teacher... I mean, did you ever go to parents' night at your school?

Joe Rogan 41:14 I've been to parents' night before, yeah.

David Mamet 41:16 Yeah. I mean, what a bunch of nonsense. You know, the, the, the, uh, the kids were out of school for two years in s- in, uh, California. And I was saying to my wife, "Well, it's a shame." She said, "No, it's a good idea, because two years less of indoctrination. Maybe they learn something."

Joe Rogan 41:31 Well, you know, um, when, uh, the whole George Floyd thing happened, one of the schools that my, uh, kids were going to back in California released this email saying that it's not enough to not be racist. You now must be anti-racist. And this, my kid's nine at the time.

David Mamet 41:53 Yeah. What does that mean, bud?

Joe Rogan 41:54 And I'm like, "What does it mean, anti-"

David Mamet 41:55 It doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean anything.

Joe Rogan 41:56 I'm like, th- these kids are not even remotely racist. Like, they have all sorts of different kinds of friends. They d- they, I've never heard them discuss it once. It's just, "I like this person and she's nice to me and we like to play together and we both like the same things." And let's, th- so to, to tell a nine-year-old that you have to be anti-racist, well, then they'll go looking for racism.

David Mamet 42:19 Oh, it's power.

Joe Rogan 42:19 And they're gonna go looking to confront it.

David Mamet 42:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:21 But it w- I don't know if it's power or was it, it's an ideology that is g- that captures people. And I think the roots of it, i- in their mind, is good. That is, you're gonna stomp out racism. But it's this naive person who's an educator, who's n- you know, I mean, I don't wanna disparage anybody, but they weren't that good at what they were doing in the first place.

David Mamet 42:45 That's right.

Joe Rogan 42:45 Like, they weren't that good at teaching in the first place, and now here they are saying they're gonna tackle something. Not, not just tackle something as complex as race in America, but you're going to establish rules that you can't just be not racist, you have to be anti-racist. And you're gonna teach this to a nine-year-old.It's like-

David Mamet 43:08 Well-

Joe Rogan 43:08 ... what are you saying? Like, what exactly are you saying? What is your fucking end goal? If you wanna say all human beings are created equal in the eyes of love and the Lord and God and heavens and the universe, and really, the differences are about climate, where people evolved, and then the differences are social, what communities they come from, and what part of the world they come from, and, you know, what their ancestors encountered and what their relatives, their mom and dad encountered, and what they've encountered in life. And that human beings are v- v- vast resources and reservoirs of potential, all of us. And that brilliant people can be Asian and Black and white and all kinds of things. And that racism is stupid. If you wanna teach that, I'm all with you. But if you wanna tell my nine-year-old they have to be anti-racist-

David Mamet 43:59 Well, it doesn't mean anything.

Joe Rogan 44:00 ... what does it mean? Yeah, what does that mean? So they have to go find racism and confront it? Well-

David Mamet 44:04 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:04 The problem is... This is the thing about censorship. This is what I was saying when, when people were calling for censor-... there were some, some people that celebrated, uh, certain people getting removed from Twitter. Like, in the early days, it was like Milo Yiannopoulos, then it was Alex Jones. And I was like, "Hey, man, if you don't see where this is going, d- d- do you understand that once they start censoring people for what they believe is something that's objectionable, that obviously the person who said it doesn't think it's objectionable, it's gonna keep going further and further, and they're gonna keep moving the goalpost. And then eventually, it's gonna come to you. And you're not gonna be left enough, and you might be a really left-wing Democrat like Bill Maher." Like, they're coming for Bill Maher all the time now.

David Mamet 44:43 Yeah, sure, or Sarah, Sarah Silverman.

Joe Rogan 44:45 Sarah Silverman.

David Mamet 44:45 Well, Sarah turned around and said, "Wait, wait, wait, it's my own party. It's my own party." Well-

Joe Rogan 44:49 It doesn't matter.

David Mamet 44:49 ... good morning.

Joe Rogan 44:50 It doesn't matter. You, you are, you are on the censorship train. And there's only so many stops before it gets to your fucking house. And that's how I feel about all this stuff. If you wanna say that human beings should be able to express themselves and we need to do it with, with, uh, in a way that doesn't harass people or dox people, uh, but, and, uh, or threaten people, but we have to be able to express ourselves 'cause it's the only way we sort out what's right and what's wrong, I'm with you. But as soon as you start saying, "I wanna only hear thoughts that I agree with," well, that's not, that's not discourse. That's propaganda. You want, you want only your side-

David Mamet 45:31 That's right.

Joe Rogan 45:31 ... to be t- t- to be represented, which is crazy, and that's what's happening on social media. That's what's happening in Twitter. That's what's ha- happening in all these things. And that g- that's the same with everything. That's the same with, uh, whether it's anti-racism, that's the same with corporate greed and anti-capitalism, that's the same with... When people start, like, going after stuff, like when people start deciding that this d- this thing that we've always accepted for so long is no longer acceptable and now we have to attack it and we have to attack it by the parameters that I believe are just and right, you go, "Oh, Jesus Christ."

David Mamet 46:05 Well, it's terrorism 'cause, uh, terrorism, the, the way terrorism works is not, "If you do A, I'm gonna punish you." The way terrorism works is, "Figure out what you wanna do, and I'll figure out if I wanna punish you," right? Uh, you, you might say, "Wait a second, I thought that was permitted." "Uh, uh, uh."

Joe Rogan 46:21 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 46:21 So now you're not gonna fucking say anything. That's what we're looking at now in, in... Uh, there's a suit in Texas, uh, maybe you're aware of it, that Texas passed a law that said, um, that social media carriers cannot s- um-

Joe Rogan 46:36 Can't censor conservative voices.

David Mamet 46:38 ... can't, can't censor for content.

Joe Rogan 46:39 Yeah, but I don't th- I don't think that works. I mean, I, I-

David Mamet 46:41 Of course, it doesn't.

Joe Rogan 46:42 ... don't think they really ha- uh, they, they don't ha- really have any teeth to that.

David Mamet 46:45 Well, what-

Joe Rogan 46:45 I mean, they would maybe if Twitter was, uh, centrally located in Texas.

David Mamet 46:50 But-

Joe Rogan 46:50 I thought it was Florida, by the way. Is that-

David Mamet 46:51 No, it's Texas. I'll tell you why I know, that, that the, the, the social media guys got together and formed the Consortium of Liars and sued the State of Texas to overturn the law.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Doesn't Ron DeSantis institute some sort of a similar...

David Mamet 47:04 He, yes, he did, but this w- I'll tell you why I know it's here, because the guy who's in charge of the, uh, defending the law asked me to write a, a brief, a little amicus brief about, uh, free speech. So that's what I-

Joe Rogan 47:16 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 47:16 That's what I realized about myself is, uh, the reason I'm not dead or in a mental institution or in a, a joint or... is because of free speech 'cause I c- came up in a time when it, uh, it was just assumed that if you could write, you could put your play on in a garage. Maybe they'd come, maybe they didn't, but if they did, maybe you'd put your play in a little theater. And if they liked it, maybe you could put your play on on Broadway, and then you could buy a c- buy a car and get married. So that's-

Joe Rogan 47:44 (laughs)

David Mamet 47:44 Uh, right? Because that's, uh... In some, some order. But that's, uh, so that's the United States of America, and people died for this right forever. And talking about racism, I'm very good friends with Shelby Steele, right? Shelby wrote, uh, notably, White Guilt where he says, "Black power and white guilt are the same thing." And I was talking-

Joe Rogan 48:02 How is that-

David Mamet 48:03 Well, he said-

Joe Rogan 48:04 How is black power and white guilt the same thing?

David Mamet 48:06 He says the only black power, he said in the book, everybody should read this book. It's genius. A Black guy, genius writer. He said the o-

Joe Rogan 48:12 Sorry, what's the book called again?

David Mamet 48:13 It's called White Guilt.

Joe Rogan 48:14 White... Okay.

David Mamet 48:15 He said-

Joe Rogan 48:15 That's the name of the book?

David Mamet 48:16 Yeah, that the on- that black power comes from white people be- it's from race hustlers, people saying, "You should be guilty. You should be guilty." And so I was talking to... Wait, I just wanna get... Well, wait, just finish for one second.

Joe Rogan 48:27 Sure.

David Mamet 48:27 I was talking to Shelby about racism. I say, "What about racism, Shelby?" He says, "Find it." I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "Point to it." I say, "Uh..." He says, "Exactly."

Joe Rogan 48:39 Well, it sur- it certainly exists, right?

David Mamet 48:40 Where?

Joe Rogan 48:41 Uh, well, how about in police enforcement? You know, how many more black people are pulled over for and harassed for whatever crime or, you know, whate- whatever traffic violations versus white people? The way they describe their experience seems very different than the way a lot of white people describe their experience.

David Mamet 48:58 Well, that may be true, but on the other hand, what the, what th- what th- the population has and what the... Like, uh, Officer What's-his-name, who does the, uh, what, what's his name? He's a great guy. He does, uh-I've forgotten his name. He's a Black guy at, uh, uh, a cop who does this wonderful podcast. And he says-

Joe Rogan 49:13 He's a podcaster?

David Mamet 49:15 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:16 Officer? Police officer?

David Mamet 49:17 Yeah. And he said, "Listen." He said, "You ever been pulled over by the cops when you were right and they were wrong?"

Joe Rogan 49:25 Uh, yes.

David Mamet 49:25 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:26 I have been. Yeah.

David Mamet 49:26 It's, it's no fun, right? I, I get it.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Yeah.

David Mamet 49:29 But what he said is, "Your correct answer is of course, 'Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, sir.'" And then sue their ass back to the beginning of time.

Joe Rogan 49:35 Well, fortunately in my case, uh, the cop came around because he had a, a video camera.

David Mamet 49:40 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 49:40 But, uh, it was f- it was kind of interesting because, uh, I ... There was a guy who was driving like a, a maniac. And, uh, he was cutting in and outta lanes. And I don't think he saw me and he was in a big pickup truck, and I was in a, uh, a Tesla. And he pulled into my lane, and I had to swerve almost into incoming traffic to avoid him slamming into the side of my car. And then because I was in a Tesla, 'cause it's so fast, I just (swooshing sound) sh- sh- shot around in front of him.

David Mamet 50:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:11 And the moment I did that, I saw blue lights. And so the cop did a U-turn. The cop was coming directly towards me, saw me do that, did a U-turn, pulled me over, was insisting I was drunk.

David Mamet 50:21 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 50:21 And, uh, I was coming from jujitsu. I was, I was not even remotely ... I had no- noth- nothing to drink at all. I was like, "I'm, uh, not drunk, man." Like, he goes, "Why were you in the opposite lane?" I goes, "Trying not to get hit." I go, "That guy ..." So he had to go over his camera-

David Mamet 50:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:35 ... on his car and he saw it. And he's like, "Okay, you're right." And then he let me go. But we had to have this sorta conversation where he was insisting he could smell alcohol on me.

David Mamet 50:44 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 50:44 I go, "D- I haven't had anything to drink in a week. Like, this is not real. Like, you're saying this. This is not true. Like, I can't believe we're having this fucking conversation."

David Mamet 50:51 Well, look at, the cops have a lot of power. The cops have always been rude, men and women, 'cause we need them there. Do the cops m- misuse power? Yeah. Do they misabuse, -use power now and then? Yeah. Is it getting better? Yeah, it's getting better for a lot of reasons. One is it's getting better at-

Joe Rogan 51:06 Accountability.

David Mamet 51:07 Exactly so, and video cameras-

Joe Rogan 51:09 Body cameras, yeah.

David Mamet 51:09 ... and, and so forth. But the answer is not to do away with the police.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Of course.

David Mamet 51:15 Which is what we see in these big city. People are out of their fucking minds.

Joe Rogan 51:18 Well, it's just a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And that the problem needs to be addressed in terms of training, respect for police officers as well, you know, that, the, this is a very difficult job that we need. And if you don't think we need it, wait 'til something happens and you need to call a cop. 'Cause there's a lot of fucking people that are like, you know, "D- you know, get rid of the police, get rid of the police." And then the shit hits the fan and they need cops, and then they complain about it. They complain about the fact that the cops aren't helping them.

David Mamet 51:47 Well, I ha- you know, uh, uh, I got ... I live in this wonderful neighborhood on the west side of LA, and we've had ... we had a shootout outside my house, the middle of the night. Bang, bang, bang.

Joe Rogan 51:55 A shootout?

David Mamet 51:55 Yes, sir. We sure did. And ... Oh, I'll tell you a good cop story. So a friend of mine, uh, he's a retired, retired FBI, and before that he was a retired ch- he was a Chi- Chicago cop. And his son, uh, went onto the force. I think it was in, in, uh, Beverly Hills. Son's full on the force. And there's a ... He gets a call, he's running on this call, there's a, a, a, a student who's lost his mind and is beating up a teacher in the schoolyard. So vroom, vroom, vroom, there they go, come into the schoolyard. The assistant principal runs out at the cops, "Wait, wait, wait, I need to see your vaccination card."

Joe Rogan 52:32 Really?

David Mamet 52:33 Yes.

Joe Rogan 52:34 (laughs)

David Mamet 52:34 So- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:35 While the guy's getting the shit beat out of him?

David Mamet 52:37 Yeah. So the-

Joe Rogan 52:37 By a kid?

David Mamet 52:38 So g- wait. So it gets better. So the kid, the kid ... the cop says ... This, man, this is fucking crazy. So he goes out to lunch with his partner. They're sitting down having a cup of coffee, and the waitress comes over and says, "I need to see your vaccination card." So the cop says, "Okay, I've had enough today. Yes." He takes out his vaccination card. Waitress says, "And I need to see your ID." Guy says, (laughs) "Miss, I'm a Beverly Hills police officer. This is my badge number, this is my ni- you know who I am." "I need to see your ID." So he, he goes home and he says, "Screw it. I, I quit." And he moved down to become a cop in-

Joe Rogan 53:15 That's it? One lady asked for his vax card and he quits?

David Mamet 53:18 No, no. He said it's too-

Joe Rogan 53:18 We don't need those cops. That guy's a pussy.

David Mamet 53:20 No. (laughs) Well ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:21 (laughs) If that's all it takes-

David Mamet 53:23 Hey, pussies-

Joe Rogan 53:24 ... you get i-

David Mamet 53:24 ... push-

Joe Rogan 53:24 Just imagine you're involved in shootouts, violence, all the crazy shit you see in car accidents. But some lady, while you're getting a cup of coffee asks for your vax card.

David Mamet 53:33 Yeah, pussy-

Joe Rogan 53:33 Too much.

David Mamet 53:33 ... pussy's gotta live too, right?

Joe Rogan 53:35 Yeah. Sure. Just shouldn't be a cop.

David Mamet 53:37 Oh. So wait a second. So here's another story from my, my, my, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:41 Not that I'm on that lady's side at all, but it's not even her fault. It's like the mandate.

David Mamet 53:44 Yeah. You're right. So you are right. So anyway-

Joe Rogan 53:46 She's trying to keep her job.

David Mamet 53:47 So I got a friend who's a, uh, a retired pilot and his son is a reti- is, uh, uh, a operative airline pilot. He flies for one of the big carriers. And the son wrote an article for a- Aviation Magazine. He says he's going through security to get on his plane to the crew only. And they say, "Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Excuse me, sir, uh, gonna have to look at your bag." They open his bag. They s- they say, "What's this?" He says, "It's a nail clipper." They say, "I'm sorry, sir. You can't take it on the plane." He says, "Well, okay. Why?" She says, "Because you might use it to take control of the aircraft." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:21 A nail clipper?

David Mamet 54:23 He's the pilot. He's a fucking pilot. And they say, "You might." He said, "Ma'am, it's my job to take control of the aircraft." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:30 Is that real? This is a real conversation?

David Mamet 54:32 It ... Look it up. It's in, I think, Flying Magazine. Then he says, "Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second."

Joe Rogan 54:37 (gasps) .

David Mamet 54:37 He says, "Ma'am, I'm armed. I have a pistol right here. I have a federal permit. I have a blah, blah, every, uh, blah, blah and a per- ... I'm carrying a gun on the plane and you want to take my nail clipper?" "I'm sorry," she says. "What can I do?" So okay. The su- this ... It's modern life.

Joe Rogan 54:55 That's a real story?

David Mamet 54:57 Uh, uh, I'll, I'll find out-

Joe Rogan 54:57 So they-

David Mamet 54:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:58 They kept the, the nail clipper and he kept his gun?

David Mamet 55:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:02 And everything's fine?

David Mamet 55:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:03 (laughs)

David Mamet 55:04 Pretty cute, huh?

Joe Rogan 55:05 It's adorable. I mean, that's, that's what happens when you have to blindly follow rules, right?

David Mamet 55:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:11 So, back to this prosperity thing.

David Mamet 55:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:13 So, what about prosperity is fucking us up?

David Mamet 55:16 Well, let me ask you a question.

Joe Rogan 55:17 Okay.

David Mamet 55:18 When you were a kid, right? You're walking down the street. If you saw a nickel, would you pick it up?

Joe Rogan 55:23 Yes.

David Mamet 55:23 Would you do it now?

Joe Rogan 55:25 No, but I'm rich.

David Mamet 55:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 55:27 I might, I might pick it up. Mm-hmm. I doubt it. Nickel? I might. Probably not. But I mean, I might, because I feel like ... I don't know.

David Mamet 55:39 Well, see-

Joe Rogan 55:40 If it was a dollar, I'd pick up a dollar.

David Mamet 55:41 Yeah, I would too. But, you know, it's not worth anything anymore, so you could use-

Joe Rogan 55:45 A dollar?

David Mamet 55:45 You could use it for waste paper, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:47 That's ... You could send a letter.

David Mamet 55:49 You could, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:50 Unless there's a dollar.

David Mamet 55:50 Except the post office ain't delivering them anymore.

Joe Rogan 55:52 They're not? What do they do with them?

David Mamet 55:53 I don't know. But I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 55:54 They deliver mail.

David Mamet 55:55 Well, they don't deliver my mail because I'll tell you what.

Joe Rogan 55:57 (laughs)

David Mamet 55:57 It's because I, I write with a fountain pen, right? So, I always wrote with a fountain pen. I got-

Joe Rogan 56:01 Do you really?

David Mamet 56:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:02 Like a feather? One of them deals?

David Mamet 56:03 No, it's not quite a feather, but I've done that too. So I, at this wonderful stationery I bought years ago, I love writing stationery, and the post office for a year has been kicking it back saying to w- address the unknown address. And I print it out. It's the machines can't read handwriting anymore.

Joe Rogan 56:18 Really?

David Mamet 56:18 At least in my post office.

Joe Rogan 56:20 I get mail all the time from people where they write it on the letter.

David Mamet 56:24 Oh, okay. Well, maybe it's just my post office.

Joe Rogan 56:26 You got a fucked-up post office. That might be a California thing.

David Mamet 56:30 Really?

Joe Rogan 56:30 I'm at the Santa Monica-

David Mamet 56:30 Are you think, are you saying that California's fucked up?

Joe Rogan 56:32 It's fucked up.

David Mamet 56:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:33 That's why I moved.

David Mamet 56:35 Okay, so look, uh, talk about, uh, p-

Joe Rogan 56:37 Prosperity.

David Mamet 56:37 Prosperity. Okay, so you make a couple of bucks.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Right.

David Mamet 56:41 Right? You say, your wife's, you say, "Wife, honey, you don't have to clean up anymore, and I'm not going to. So, let's get a housekeeper."

Joe Rogan 56:49 Right.

David Mamet 56:49 So, you get a housekeeper. You get richer, right? You say, "Oh, (smacks lips) gonna need two housekeepers," right?

Joe Rogan 56:54 Okay.

David Mamet 56:54 "Okay, we have some kids. Oops, got richer. (smacks lips) Nanny for the kids. Boomf. Oops, you know what? Love having the nanny, weekend nanny. Whoop, oop, now we need a household manager 'cause we got so rich we need a household manager and we need a gardener. Oops, now we need a security team."

Joe Rogan 57:10 Sounds like you got business going on.

David Mamet 57:11 Dude. So, we're doing very well. So now, oops, now we need a financial manager.

Joe Rogan 57:16 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 57:16 Oops, now we need a ..." And on and on we go until they're living your life for you and you're in this little pinnacle, right? Where you're not, you can't, you don't go out of the house. When's the last time that w- you, you filled up your ... This is not bad. This is the way human be-

Joe Rogan 57:32 When is the last time what?

David Mamet 57:33 You filled up your ... Mowed your lawn, filled up your car, filled out your own income tax, um, et cetera. Cleaned up y- your front yard.

Joe Rogan 57:42 But isn't the idea of prosperity that you don't do all those things so you can do the things you enjoy?

David Mamet 57:47 Exactly so.

Joe Rogan 57:48 Get somebody else to do all those things?

David Mamet 57:49 Of course, why not? So, but you're doing the things that you enjoy, but less and l- you get, you're less and less involved with the day-to-day life of your community. In my community, for example, even before COVID, if you said good morning to your neighbors, they called the cops. Nobody talked to each other.

Joe Rogan 58:04 You should move to Texas.

David Mamet 58:06 I'd love to move-

Joe Rogan 58:07 My neighbors are super friendly. (laughs)

David Mamet 58:07 I would love to move to-

Joe Rogan 58:08 Talk to your wife. (laughs)

David Mamet 58:09 Yeah, you talk to my wife.

Joe Rogan 58:10 I'll talk to you and get your wife to talk to my wife.

David Mamet 58:12 Yeah, please. I'll put her on the ... hold on.

Joe Rogan 58:14 Listen.

David Mamet 58:14 I can put her on the thing.

Joe Rogan 58:15 They're so friendly out here.

David Mamet 58:16 I know, it's-

Joe Rogan 58:16 It changed my idea of what neighbors are. It really did.

David Mamet 58:19 Oh, it's marvelous, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:20 People are so friendly out here. It's like, I have friends that came out here, and they initially thought that they were being put on. Like, "Come on. These people aren't real. They're not really that nice." Like, everywhere, at fucking grocery stores, at, uh, drugstores. Like, where, everywhere you go, people are friendly.

David Mamet 58:40 Yeah. You know, I much-

Joe Rogan 58:42 It's different.

David Mamet 58:42 I much prefer, "Hi, hon, what's yours?" to "Put your mask on."

Joe Rogan 58:46 Well, they tell you to put your mask on too, or they were for a while, but that was just mandates. That was just city-wides, you know?

David Mamet 58:53 You, you, you're so easygoing.

Joe Rogan 58:54 I'm an easygoing guy.

David Mamet 58:55 Yeah. Golly gumdrops, now I'm a, I'm a-

Joe Rogan 58:57 I came here right from the gym too.

David Mamet 58:59 Oh, good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:59 I'm relaxed.

David Mamet 59:00 That'll do it. Well, I'm a, I'm a hothead, which I'd be the second to tell you my wife would be the first. Oh, I'm the only guy who ever got barred from Williams-Sonoma. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:08 Did you really?

David Mamet 59:09 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:09 How do you get barred from that place?

David Mamet 59:10 I'll tell you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:11 It's filled with jam and nice kitchenware.

David Mamet 59:13 I know, it's so wonderful.

Joe Rogan 59:14 (laughs)

David Mamet 59:14 So, I park at Williams-Sonoma, and I come in through the back door of the parking lot. And this woman says, "Excuse me, sir, did you not see that sign that says this is an, not an entrance, it's an exit? You came in through the wrong side." I said, "It's okay. I'm an illegal immigrant." She says, "I find that a very, very offensive comment. Would you please leave?"

Joe Rogan 59:42 So, because you joked around and said, "It's okay, I'm an illegal immigrant"-

David Mamet 59:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:45 ... she wanted you to leave?

David Mamet 59:46 Yeah. She thought that-

Joe Rogan 59:47 And she's just an employee there?

David Mamet 59:48 Yeah. But she's gonna, all the, all the other people were over there and, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And I'm thinking-

Joe Rogan 59:52 They all were saying you gotta leave?

David Mamet 59:53 No, they were all nodding, nodding like, you know, the little dog in the back of the station wagon. But I thought, "Well, it's A, it's a joke, and B, uh, uh, the reason it might think it's funny is it's true," right? We're sending up something that we're all concerned about. But when you can't send up something that you're all concerned about, what are you joking about? Where's the humor anymore? The only funny thing anybody said for two years was Chris Rock. He says, "I'm glad I, I didn't insult Alec Baldwin's wife." Right? Where, where was the humor, uh, uh, of the last two years? Everybody's afraid to joke 'cause humor's all about repression.

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 Well, that sounds like, the Williams-Sonoma thing sounds like you just caught the wrong person at the wrong time-

David Mamet 1:00:33 Ah, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 ... and you had the wrong joke and she didn't like it.

David Mamet 1:00:36 But it's a good story.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 It's a decent story.

David Mamet 1:00:39 A decent story, right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 I wouldn't say ... I'm not gonna repeat it.

David Mamet 1:00:41 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 It's not so good that I'll be telling my friends, "You're not gonna ... David Mamet was on my podcast. Let me tell you his story."

David Mamet 1:00:47 Yeah, really.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 It's not that.

David Mamet 1:00:48 You're right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 You know what I'm saying?

David Mamet 1:00:49 Yeah. Of course I do.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 They kicked you out of Williams? Did they bar you? Did you try to come back the next day with a different outfit? (laughs)

David Mamet 1:00:53 No, no, I just, I kind of barred myself. I didn't want to go back there and to, and take it again.

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 So, she's just upset that you came in the wrong door?

David Mamet 1:00:59 No.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 That was it?

David Mamet 1:01:00 She was upset, she was upset, she said, said she found the comment-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Oh.

David Mamet 1:01:04 ... deeply offensive.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 That you're an illegal immigrant? Yeah. That subject is so strange. It's subject is so ... It's, it's a strange subject because some people think it should be okay to be an illegal immigrant.I'm like, "Well, you know, this country's founded on immigration." You know, my grandparents were imm- immigrants. My, my entire-

David Mamet 1:01:23 (exhales)

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 ... family line came from Europe. My, my grandparents came from Italy, and, uh, one of my grandfathers came from Ireland.

David Mamet 1:01:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 So no one-

David Mamet 1:01:31 My grandparents are immigrants too.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 No one came from America.

David Mamet 1:01:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 This... I am third generation. So it's, uh... the, the whole idea of immigration is like, of course, immigration's great. It's what America's all about. But there's rules. Then the question becomes, is it fair? Are the rules fair? And I don't know if they are. I don't know. I mean, it seems pretty fucking hard if you're from Mexico to get into America legally. Like, it seems hard. It seems difficult.

David Mamet 1:01:57 Well, let me ask a question. Fair to whom?

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Uh, well, fair to the people that are trying to get in, in comparison to the people that are already here. Like, if you talk to my grandparents, they're dead now, but if you talk to them while they're alive and ask them how hard was it to get into America, all they had to do was show up. They showed up. They wrote their names down. A lot of times they changed their names, like a lot of Italian names that were too hard to pronounce, they changed them, and, um, they were in. And then they, they... I mean, they had founded this country. It's one of the things that made this country so fantastic, that you have a l- a legitimate melting pot in the 20th century with all these people coming from all over the world trying to seek a better life, and risk-takers, right? People that are willing to try out a new continent, get on a boat with their family.

David Mamet 1:02:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 And when my grandfather came over here, he was a young boy. And to, to be able to do that and to establish, you know, the lineage that, you know, he, he has left behind in this, in this country is pretty fucking cool. It's the coolest country in that regard is that we're all immigrants. Everybody here. There's no, like... You know, if you go to China, generally speaking, Chinese people look Chinese. They'll... You know, that's, that's just... They're Chi- they're from China. There's... You're dealing with thousands of years of genetics and, and the same people living in the same area and a billion of them now. And America's everybody. America's people from Africa, from Ireland, Scotland, and Mexico. And... But it's fucking hard to get in now if you're a poor person from another country that wants a better life. You have to show that you have something that we don't have here. Like, if you... You have to, you have to show that you have some sort of a special skill.

David Mamet 1:03:37 Not if you're coming through the southern border.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Right.

David Mamet 1:03:39 So-

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 But even then, it's still illegal.

David Mamet 1:03:40 ... how does, how does that make sense then?

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 Doesn't make sense. But it's... What... But what is that?

David Mamet 1:03:45 What is what?

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 What is that? That i- that allowing people to come in through the southern border. Do you think that what's going on... And this is what... The argument that I've heard, is two things are happening. One, like in New York City, the mayor, I believe Eric Adams said that he believes that illegal immigrants should be allowed to vote, which is fascinating. It's a fascinating thing to say because as soon as you say that, and then you're also letting people in, they know that the people that are allowing them to vote are people in the Democratic Party. So you're basically allowing people to come in 'cause those are the people that are interested in allowing people to come in illegally, right? Those are the ones that don't fight it. And then once they're in, you want them to be able to vote. So you're essentially saying, "Hey, we got you in. You know who to vote for 'cause we're the people that let you in."

David Mamet 1:04:36 Uh, well-

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 And you're... You've got a built-in... Like, you've, you've got a... It's a beautiful thing in their eyes 'cause you've got this built-in voter base now-

David Mamet 1:04:43 Yeah. Well, d- d-

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 ... and you're allowing them to come in.

David Mamet 1:04:45 Duh, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Right?

David Mamet 1:04:46 Duh.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Duh.

David Mamet 1:04:47 So, you know, anybody says that the borders should be open, try coming in, uh, flying from Heathrow to JFK and walking in. You can't do it. So the question is, why do the Democrats want the illegal immigrants? It's because they're, they're harvesting votes. Why do they want, uh, everybody on welfare? 'Cause they're buying votes. This doesn't mean that they're, that they're more evil than the rest of us, although they are. It means... You know, I grew up in Mayor Daley's South Side of Chicago. It was all about buying votes, keeping the people in their place.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:05:14 And if you want a job, uh, turn out the vote. And if you want, uh... you, you, you wanna stay on the, uh, on the police force, kick back two, two weeks of your pay and shut the fuck up.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Right, but you don't think Democrats want everybody to be on welfare, right?

David Mamet 1:05:28 I think that the Democratic Party wants everybody to be on welfare. The Democratic Party has gotten so far away from it- not only from its liberal base, but from its liberal constituents 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 What are you, what are you basing that on though, that statement, that they want everybody to be on welfare?

David Mamet 1:05:43 Because the welfare people are the v- The people on welfare are the people who vote for the Democratic Party. Because they... Somebody said a long time ago, they said that democracy dies when the people realize they can vote for the government to give them money. So if the people can vote for the government to give them money, they're gonna do so. So the question is, who is paying for the welfare? It's not the Democratic Party. It's the taxpayers.

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 Do you believe in any sort of a social safety net for people?

David Mamet 1:06:09 Of course I do.

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 So you believe in welfare?

David Mamet 1:06:11 No. Well, no. No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 You don't?

David Mamet 1:06:13 Well, wait a second. I believe in some sort of a social net. Listen, Social Security started out as an interim program to deal with the elderly who didn't have any say- savings during-

Joe Rogan 1:06:24 Right.

David Mamet 1:06:24 ... um, uh, during the Depression. So now we have all of this money paid into Social Security. Social Sec- it's not there anymore. It's all been spent. So the only way that Social Security can function is to, uh, indenture the future. Unemployment insurance ex- uh, existed at the beginning to help somebody who'd lost their job in the period before they got the next job. So now it exists to keep somebody on unemployment ins- insurance for two years so they don't work. I... You know, if I was a kid and, uh, and that, that's all that I knew, I'd do it too. You know? The Aid to Dependent Children started to help mothers who didn't have babies or didn't have, uh, uh, uh, a wage earner around, that they were young, they were single mothers, they didn't have, uh, a wage earner around. So then s- it became evident, two things, that the more children you had out of wedlock-... with no man in the house, the more money you got. And the only way you could keep on getting that money was if the man was out of the house, so the men left. Now, this is not specific to the black community, but it's endemic. It's the same thing happened in the Jewish community. When the J- my grandparents, um, generation came over in the '20s, about a third of the men just left, including my grandfather. They just couldn't take it anymore. They couldn't take the shock of, uh, immigration and the new language, and they just left. And so my dad was raised by a single mom in the, in, in the Depression. That's not a good way to... He did very well, but it's not a good way to, to, to, to bring up kids. So when you got no man in the house and women having a lot of babies because they get more money, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 But do you think they're having babies because they get more money, really? Do you really think that people, like, maybe want... Well, what percentage of people are actually having babies just to get more money?

David Mamet 1:08:22 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 And what percentage of people are just making poor choices?

David Mamet 1:08:25 Uh, w- I don't know. That's a very good question.

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 And the thing is, the, the idea is, I think, that for- first of all, for the children in particular, it's not their fault.

David Mamet 1:08:34 Of course it's not their fault.

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 You know, some old we-

David Mamet 1:08:36 But here's the thing. If, uh, uh, here's the thing. If there's no father in the house and if there's no community in the house, what are the, especially young men, are gonna do? They're gonna seek out a community, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 Right. This is where gangs come in.

David Mamet 1:08:49 They're gonna call, it's called a gang. They're gonna s-

Joe Rogan 1:08:51 Right.

David Mamet 1:08:51 Of course they are. I would and you would too, if that's the only thing that they know.

Joe Rogan 1:08:56 Sure. Sure. Yeah, it's the only thing that gives you a sense of community.

David Mamet 1:08:57 Okay. So now you look around and you say, "Well, wait a second. The inner cities, there seems to be more crime." Well, there is more crime, 'cause there's more gangs, right? It's not that the people are depraved or it's not, uh, that's not racism to say so. It's true. It's unfortunate, but, but it's, but it's true. So what's one way that you turn it around, is you let the people in the inner cities choose their own schools. Because the teachers union has always sent the worst teachers to the black neighborhoods, always. And they're still doing it, right? So if the school is i- i- is, has the worst teachers in the world and they're teaching the young kids, you know, "You've been put upon and you're a victim," you're perpetuating the death of the inner cities. When Trump comes along and says, "You know what? Let's stop that. Let's, let's, let's, let's have school choice. Parents should be able to pick where their kids go to school. And let's incentivize people to put a industry in the inner cities and give everybody a job." So the parents, uh, the, the, the Democrats say, "No, no. Terrible idea. That's racist. How dare you say that? No, no, no. Parents shouldn't be able to pick where to put their children to school." Well, w- what if they pi- what if the parents make the wrong choice? But if the c- parents can't make that choice, the kids are gonna be raised on the street to a large extent. Not that they can't get out, but it's gonna be very, very difficult to, for them to get out.

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 So I'm still confused about your position on welfare. So do you think that welfare should exist? Should people have welfare?

David Mamet 1:10:27 Well, I don't know. Here's the thing. Rich kids are all on welfare. College is basically welfare.

Joe Rogan 1:10:34 How so?

David Mamet 1:10:35 Well, they say to the kid, "I tell you what, I'm gonna spend $70,000, $80,000 a year. You go to this elite, uh, university." "And what are you gonna learn there?" "I don't know, study film, uh, study diversity, study si- study s- study some soft thing, have a good time." Right?

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 Right. Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:10:50 So the kid gets through there and he doesn't want... The onl- now the only society he knows are those society of, of the well-to-do liberal kids.

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:11:01 What's he gonna do? Is he gonna join the military? No. Is he gonna join the forest service? No. Is he gonna become a cop, a fireman? No. Is he gonna become a plumber? No. Is he gonna become increasingly a doctor or a lawyer? No. Because he's sp- 'cause he's raised in this idea that work is a mistake, that property is theft, and that error, that, that strife is error. Right? 'Cause he's never been tested. He, you know, he, he grew up in these elite schools, whether they're th- the public schools in an elite area or the private schools, and they filled his, his head with trash. H- he can't leave that society because-

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 The society of universities?

David Mamet 1:11:44 Yes, bec-

Joe Rogan 1:11:44 So you're talking about someone who gets a degree and then winds up becoming a teacher and lives in the same sort of insulated bubble.

David Mamet 1:11:49 Exactly. So, or he goes on and he gets another degree and another degree.

Joe Rogan 1:11:53 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:11:53 So for him to undertake an alternative view, it's an un- h- he can't undertake an alternative view, 'cause that means, to him, giving up his life.

Joe Rogan 1:12:05 Well, don't you think there's a lot of people that have alternative views that just don't know how to express them because they're worried about being rejected by their peers?

David Mamet 1:12:11 Sure. Of course there are. God-

Joe Rogan 1:12:12 There's probably a lot of kids in college.

David Mamet 1:12:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:14 There's a lot of kids in college that listen to this right now.

David Mamet 1:12:16 Yes, I'm sure there are. Well, God bless them, you know, because they're in a tough spot. So it's tough... So what I'm doing is comparing that to the kid in the inner city. It's tough for these people to get out.

Joe Rogan 1:12:26 But I still don't understand how it's welfare. Like, it seems more like that you're just involved in this educational system, this echo chamber. I don't see how it's welfare.

David Mamet 1:12:36 Well, I'll, I'll tell you how. You, you, you... I, I'm really... I can't over recommend my friend Shelby Steele's books.

Joe Rogan 1:12:41 Okay.

David Mamet 1:12:41 'Cause he's devoted his life, he's a black man, he's devoted his life to, uh ... and he's a very close associate of Tom Sowell, to, um, understanding the problem, the heartbreaking problem of his people. Right? I'm a Jew, so I got the heartbreaking problem of my people. He's got the heartbreaking problem of his. I don't understand the specific problem, but I understand the phenomenon.

Joe Rogan 1:13:01 Mm-hmm.

David Mamet 1:13:02 So h- he was talking in a, a black community in, uh, Los Angeles the other day, and they said, "What can we do? What can we do? The, uh, the city's, uh, the, the community's no good. The cops are no good. The schools are no good. Crime is rampant. What can we do?" He said, "Move."

Joe Rogan 1:13:23 Okay, that's a pretty simplistic answer. If you're really poor and you're stuck in a neighborhood like that and you have roots there, maybe you have a job there and someone says, "Move."

David Mamet 1:13:32 Well, the- the-

Joe Rogan 1:13:33 That's a lot easier said than done.

David Mamet 1:13:34 Of course, it is.

Joe Rogan 1:13:34 It is possible.

David Mamet 1:13:35 Of course, it is.

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 It's possible. But one has to gather up the resources and-

David Mamet 1:13:39 Ex-

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 ... formulate a plan, and-

David Mamet 1:13:40 Exactly. So his point that he can make, as a Black man, I'm not.

Joe Rogan 1:13:44 Uh-huh.

David Mamet 1:13:44 His point is, "You told me you can't live here. If you were in charge of yourself, move."

Joe Rogan 1:13:50 If you're in charge of yourself.

David Mamet 1:13:51 And we... And- and so-

Joe Rogan 1:13:52 Right.

David Mamet 1:13:52 ... the point is, we all are in charge-

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 I still don't-

David Mamet 1:13:53 ... of ourselves.

Joe Rogan 1:13:53 ... understand how univ- that makes universities' welfare, that doesn't...

David Mamet 1:13:58 Well, peop- uni-

Joe Rogan 1:14:01 Welfare is free money, right?

David Mamet 1:14:02 Is what?

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 Wel- welfare is free money.

David Mamet 1:14:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 Welfare is people are down and out, they're- they're in a bad spot-

David Mamet 1:14:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:07 ... and then you get to apply for some money from the government for your basic needs.

David Mamet 1:14:11 Yeah, and- and universities are free time. So instead of getting your money from the government, as a lot of people do, kids who get, uh, scholarships, you get it from your parents. What- what's the difference?

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 Or you have student loans.

David Mamet 1:14:21 You have student loans that-

Joe Rogan 1:14:21 So-

David Mamet 1:14:21 ... you're