EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,011 words- 0:00 – 0:39
Birthday catch-up and Ryan Holiday’s early success in Hollywood
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) All right, and we're up.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sweet.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hello, Brian.
- RHRyan Holiday
Hi.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nice to meet you, man.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, good to meet-
- JRJoe Rogan
Happy birthday.
- RHRyan Holiday
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
How old are you?
- RHRyan Holiday
I'm 35.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Do you feel 35?
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, I feel like after like late 20s, I just kind of like l- I got to check in every year to be like, "Wait, how old am I again?" You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
So I, not really, I guess.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a strange time, 35.
- RHRyan Holiday
Why?
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause you're kind of middle-aged.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you're young.
- 0:39 – 5:24
The brutal talent-agency assistant experience (and why the system breeds abuse)
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, I was like successful pretty early in my life, so like I was always like the kid. You know? Like I, I dropped out of college at 19, and so ... And I, I worked in Hollywood, and so I was always like the, the youngest person in the room by far.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And so like I- that's ... It's not been part of my identity, but I like felt it. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you do in Hollywood?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, I dropped out of college. I worked o- at a desk in a talent agency, and then, uh, then I started signing new media clients, and then very quickly, it didn't work out. But, uh, you wanna know ... So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- RHRyan Holiday
So I (laughs) ...
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, I was working for ... One of the reasons it didn't work out, it didn't work out for ... 'cause it was a horrible life and I don't know why anyone would want to have it. But I was working a- at this desk as an assistant and, uh, I was also a research assistant for Robert Greene, uh, The 48 Laws of Power guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- RHRyan Holiday
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RHRyan Holiday
By the way, I brought you the new one from him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, great.
- RHRyan Holiday
He signed it for you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's awesome.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Robert's a great guy.
- RHRyan Holiday
He's my favorite human being in the whole world.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right.
- RHRyan Holiday
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Damn, I want to be your favorite human being.
- RHRyan Holiday
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
Let's see. (laughs) Well, no, so I, I was working for Robert and, uh, I had The 48 Laws of Power on my desk 'cause I was working on it, and one of the partners became like convinced that I was like up to shit.
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, yeah. Like, uh, he was like, he just, he got it in his head that I was like, not a threat, but I was like someone to be suspicious of. And, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Because you had the Laws of Power on your-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... desk?
- 5:24 – 9:03
Hollywood gatekeepers, corruption, and the jump to Stoicism and “The Obstacle Is the Way”
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's a, it's a weird, abusive system, period. From top down, from producers and directors to, uh, Tarantino was on the podcast. He was telling me about this famous producer who kept a bedroom in his office where he would take the starlets and he would, he would bang all the starlets that would come in.
- RHRyan Holiday
Power corrupts, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But I think back then, it was unchecked. You know, now it's like it's th- those same guys are like terrified now.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like all those stories are resurfacing. Like, that would, that was the way women got roles. Like, you had to sleep your way to the top. Like, you literally had to do that.
- RHRyan Holiday
It doesn't seem that hard to not be a piece of shit, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) But does it in a world where everyone's a piece of shit. Like, depending upon what ... Like, there's different cultures of different, you know, businesses. And when you have a business like that where, you know, there's ... L- look, one of the weirdest things about Hollywood is that there's literally people that just decide to pick you. And if they pick you, your life becomes th- the, your wildest dreams. You're on the cover of Vogue Magazine, you're starring in an action movie right next to the fucking, the biggest A-list celebrities in the world. You've fucking made it. You are at the Oscars accepting the award and thanking that person who points at you in the front row. I- if they chose.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
If they choose you. But if they don't choose you, you're fucked. It is not a meritocracy. It's just not. You can see by like, someone like Amber Heard, she's not a good actress, but if you, you get into the right spot, and you do the right thing, and you fucking make the right noises, you can become famous and successful.
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, I think any industry that has gatekeepers is inherently susceptible to being corrupted-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
... because those people have a certain unearned power, and they probably deep down know that they don't really do anything, and that they're just, like, guessing, you know? And, uh, it's prob- uh, there's probably something in that too where you're aware of the inherent bankruptcy, like, "We don't make anything. We don't do anything."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, and it probably goes to your head, and you need distractions and stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think that's, uh, this is an interesting jump off point to talk about your work and your, your fascination with Stoicism, because what you're talking about there is like a truth. Like, you're talking about like, there's a, there's a reality to that job is that these people who are the gatekeepers, like, there's a lot of people that work in Hollywood that work as executives that are really not talented people, and I've known them forever and I've seen them fail upwards. Like, I've known them since I've been there, so it was like 20, 30 years ago and they're still around. And they were retarded then and they're stupid now. That's like they're the same person. It's like there's, there's a reality to that. And one of the things that, uh, I think you're really, um, that you highlight very well is the importance of reality, of, of, uh, dealing with things and of finding positives in any sort of, uh, you know, the, the title of your book, The Obstacles The Way, it's a great title-
- RHRyan Holiday
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because obstacles are, are very important, and although they don't seem like they are when, you know, you're there, they, they don't seem like they're beneficial, they seem like it's just, like, the end of the world and this is gonna be horrible, but there's some great benefit in difficult times and difficult things.
- 9:03 – 11:12
Becoming a writer: living an interesting life, Robert Greene apprenticeship, and discovering Meditations
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, yeah, even when I was in Hollywood, right? So I, I had to walk out on this job. I'm like, "Fuck, this is what I dropped out of college to do." Like, "This is not good." My entire life would've been different had that not happened to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
What did you want to do?
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, I wanted to be a writer, but I got this really good advice, uh, from a writer and he said, "Writers live interesting lives." So you have to, like, go do stuff. You have to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... be around people or in a s- you have to go get ... You have to go earn having a point of view.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- RHRyan Holiday
You can't just, like, l- you can't just get good at the craft of doing the thing. Obviously, that's super important, and that's what I learned from Robert as a research assistant. He's like, "Here's how books come together. Here's the art of doing the thing." But, like, if you don't have anything to say, uh ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
You know? Uh, and so I- I was just, I was like, okay, I have this thing to, chance to do this, and then I went from there. I worked at, I was the Director of Marketing at American Apparel. So I did, like, weird shit and I was around crazy, crazy people, but all of that ultimately informed, you know, what I talk about. Uh, but I knew, I knew I didn't want to be a person who's just, like, taking a percentage of what other people do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
I wanted to make stuff. Like, I wanted to actually produce and create things. Um, so I knew I wanted to be a writer, and when I first read The Stoics, I was just like, "Shit, this is it." Like, when I read Meditations for the first time, I was 19, I was sitting in my college apartment and I was just like, "Not only have I never read anything like this, I've never even heard of anything like this." 'Cause you have the most powerful man in the world writing notes to himself that he never thinks are gonna be published. Like, pretty much every other book ever written was, like, a writer writing to an audience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
And Meditations is, was never intended to be published. He'd probably be mortified that we even have it. And so, it was just a kind of philosophy and a way of thinking that I hadn't heard in any school, you know, in any class from any adult in my life, and I was like, "I want to tell people about this."
- 11:12 – 15:20
Why Marcus Aurelius still feels modern: translation choices and writing in Greek
- JRJoe Rogan
Marcus Aurelius, uh, one, w- the, one of the more interesting things about the stuff that he writes is how relevant it is today. Like, when y- when you read it, you wouldn't imagine that this is being written by a man, like, how many years ago was that?
- RHRyan Holiday
800, 1900, 2000 years ago. He's writing in, like, the mid-150s, 160s AD.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so ... very relevant. Like, uh, the way he writes, the, the, I mean, it's, the language is incredibly familiar. It's, uh, the same, you know? It's ... One of the things about, um, y- y- you know, we would always make fun of, uh, the way people talked a long time ago, you know, "Wherefore thou..."
- RHRyan Holiday
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, there was a, there's a way of talking that we don't communicate like today. But when Marcus Aurelius writes, and you, like, if you read Meditations, it seems very current.
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, it does depend on the translation, right? 'Cause, like, if you were reading, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And people will do this, is they'll recommend Marcus Aurelius and they'll just, like, get what's free on the internet or whatever, um ...If you're reading a translation from the 1850s or the 1600s, it's going to be in Shakespearean English because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Interesting.
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? Because they're translating it into their parts.
- JRJoe Rogan
Vernacular. Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. And so that the right translation is key. Do you remember which one you read?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't.
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, I like the... There's a Gregory Hayes translation for The Modern Library, which I think is the most, like, lyrical and beautiful of all of them. That's the one that I randomly bought on Amazon and had no idea that it was going to be the one that would hit me.
- JRJoe Rogan
So were there original ones in Latin?
- RHRyan Holiday
So this is what's crazy about Marcus. So Marcus lives in Rome, the Romans speak Latin, but the philosophical language at that time was Greek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RHRyan Holiday
So Marcus was writing to himself in Greek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RHRyan Holiday
So it gives it like... When you read those passages or you listen to them and you're just like, "That is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard." Like, there's this one passage where he's like... He talks about, like, this, a stalk of grain bending low under its own weight. The way a olive, uh, you know, falls to the ground. He talks about, um, the way that when you put bread in the oven, it breaks open on top. And we don't know why that happens. It's just this, like, beautiful inadvertent act of nature. He's just like writing like a poet, like a great writer. And again, he's writing in his non-native tongue to himself, never expecting anyone would see it. How fucking talen-... It'd be like finding out that s- like, a comedian is, like, funny in their diary. You're just like, "Wow, you're just naturally that. You're not turning it on or off." You-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
It's just, like, intuitively part of you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
But I think your point about how it feels timeless, that actually does feel like a thing I've heard comedians say, which is that, like, uh, the, the specific is universal. I don't think he was trying to talk to the audience. I think he was try-... He was so unflinchingly honest with himself that he was touching something universally human and that's why. 'Cause, like, we should not be able to relate to his experience at all.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
I mean, he's literally... There is literally a cult of the emperor that worshiped the emperor and their spouse as living deities. And he controlled the largest army in the world. He had unlimited wealth. He could kill, uh, or murder or torture or exile anyone he wanted. Um, people cheered him as he walked in the streets. There's no way we should be able to be like, this passage was talking about struggling to get out of bed in the morning-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... and you want to huddle under the warm covers. Like how, how? 'Cause I guess people are people, no matter where you get in life.
- JRJoe Rogan
People are people and not everyone gives in to the temptations of being in that position.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- 15:20 – 17:23
Power without becoming ‘Caesarified’: purple dye, self-awareness, and Gladiator vs. history
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. He says in, in Meditations, he says, "Be careful not to be Caesarified. Don't be dyed purple." Because the emperor wore a purple cloak.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
And, and purple cl- purple, if... Now, we're just like, "The Color Purple." To get purple, it was this complicated process of different merchants. Actually, the founder of Stoicism was a merchant in Tyrian purple. But like, they, slaves would smash up sea slugs or sea snails, dry them on rocks, and this dust would eventually become, like, the source of purple.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- RHRyan Holiday
So and he's like, "Don't be stained purple." So he was act-... Like, when he becomes emperor, he's like, "This will change you if you're not careful. And you have to actively work to make sure that doesn't happen." So he was aware of that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was, that was the character in Gladiator, right? He wa- wasn't that Marcus Aurelius? Was it based on him roughly? Loosely?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, it's a, it's, I think, one of the great movies of all time. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Great movie.
- RHRyan Holiday
He-
- JRJoe Rogan
With Peter O'Toole?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. He's the one that Joaquin Phoenix's character kills at the beginning.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
Um, and then a lot of the sort of things that, uh, Maximus says are sort of very Stoic-inspired. The irony of that movie, uh, is that Joaquin Phoenix probably underplays how bad Marcus Aurelius' son was in real life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- RHRyan Holiday
He really did get killed by a gladiator. He was a psychopath. Uh, immediately destroys all of Marcus' work. It's one of the tragedies of Marcus that he has a, like a POS son.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, I've always wondered, like, how that, that did seem like it's Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Like, that is a very common thing.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why, why is that, like, i- it's an archetype?
- RHRyan Holiday
It is. Uh, there's another great Eastern emperor, uh, Cyrus the Great, and he has a shitty son, too. Um, you know, it doesn't look like Queen Elizabeth's kids were that great.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 17:23 – 24:07
The “five good emperors,” adoption politics, family tragedy, and the Antonine Plague
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, but I th- what's interesting about Marcus is, like, it's weird that he's such this great man and then most people know nothing about him. But, like, Marcus' father was not emperor. So th- there's, there's, uh, what they call the five good emperors. So it's basically, in all of Roman history, there's, like, five good emperors. And they happen in a row. And they happen in a row because each one does not have a male heir. So they don't have sons. So in the Roman tradition, it was much more common to, if you didn't have a son, you would adopt a son. Um, and so the Emperor Hadrian is old, probably gay, does not have any children, and he adopts, uh, he, he sees something in Marcus that they're very... Marcus is young, but he sort of starts mentoring this boy. Uh, they, they actually go, like, hunting together. Like, he sees something special in this kid. Marcus' nickname was Verismus or the truthful one. Um, but he's, like, just a kid.And Hadrian realizes he's too young to name him emperor, so he selects a man named Antoninus Pius, who's the, like, the great politician of the time, and makes him emperor on condition that he adopt Marcus Aurelius.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RHRyan Holiday
So Marcus ... And then, the thinking was, Antoninus Pius would live for, like, five years and then Marcus would be king. And in fact, he lives for, like, 19 years. So Marcus has, like, a 20-year apprenticeship in being the emperor under a man who, like, could've killed him, who could've been corrupted by power, but is this incredible example. And that's why at the beginning of Meditations, Marcus has, like, a two-page thank you letter to Antoninus, his adopted stepfather.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- RHRyan Holiday
It's fucking crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
And his son, uh, what was the, the deal with the wife?
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, Marcus' wife?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RHRyan Holiday
So Marcus' wife, Faustina, is, I guess it would be ... Faustina is Antoninus' daughter. Uh, so they're not related, but that's, they marry the family together. Marcus loves her. Uh, they're married a very long time. Uh, there are rumors that she's unfaithful but f- as far as we know, Marcus pays, you know, no attention to this, does not believe them. Um, but the tragedy of their marriage is Marcus loses, like, seven children before they reach adulthood.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- RHRyan Holiday
Can you imagine that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that was very common back then, though, wasn't it?
- RHRyan Holiday
Seven's a lot, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is a lot, but isn't that ... That's, uh, one of the reasons why the, um, general age that people lived to was so low back then. People think that people died, the, uh, your age of expected death. It wasn't that. It's just, like, you, you died in childbirth. You died, uh, you know, when you were young. You died from infection. It wasn't that people didn't live as long.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. Like, uh, there's lots of old people in Rome.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
It's just, like, getting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Getting to that hump.
- RHRyan Holiday
... over ... Like, if you made it to 40, maybe you could make it to 80.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
But, like, chances are, you weren't gonna make it to 20.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. That's, makes sense.
- RHRyan Holiday
But it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, they're all sword-fighting and shit. It's ...
- RHRyan Holiday
That's also true. I mean, just imagine, you could cut your hand and die of an infection.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Real, and obviously they're shitting in the streets and just fucking horrible diseases-
- RHRyan Holiday
Even rich people don't have toilets.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
Like, they know nothing, um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 24:07 – 31:39
Bad heirs and broken childhoods: princes, child stars, and raising “normal” kids
- JRJoe Rogan
So how does a man like that, who's so introspective and so thoughtful, particularly for the times, how does a man like that have a son that's such a piece of shit?
- RHRyan Holiday
(sighs) I don't know. I don't know. I mean, one argument is he's a psychopath and there's n- sort of nothing you can do. Like, there's n- no blame whatsoever. The other argument, the more likely one, is like-... most great men, and we're talking about history so it's mostly great men, but again, Queen Elizabeth had scrappy kids, uh, most great men are shitty fathers. Gandhi was a bad father. Uh, Winston Churchill was not a good father.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why is that?
- RHRyan Holiday
I think they're busy. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Wow.
- RHRyan Holiday
I mean, do you have a theory?
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, I, I think it's a power thing. I think growing up in that, with that amount of wealth and that amount of power, that your, your mind develops in this privileged position where you never have to struggle, you never have to develop character, and you always feel entitled to everything.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? If you... Like, imagine being a prince. Imagine being the son of an emperor. You have the most ultimate power. You could have people killed. He probably did. He probably killed people. If he got in an argument with a boy, you know, while they were playing, he would probably stab him. You could get away with that. And if you did that many, many, many times, you would develop this ultimate sense that you're superior to all mortals. Like, you would think of yourself as a god-king. You would think of yourself as someone who's not a, a normal human being. And I don't think you could ever get that out of a person. If you, if you grew up... It's like, childhood stars are the most broken people that we have on exhibit. If, if you wanna really examine human beings in term... If you wanted to do, like, a psychological study, like, what i- You know, what is the average architect like? What is the average singer like? You know, what is the average child star like?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they're almost all drug addicts. They're almost all completely wrecked. Their personality's never fully developed. They develop under this weird position where everyone loves them from the time they're little. And they get exorbitant amounts of attention that are completely unearned. Then they never have to develop character under adversity. They never have to prove themselves. You cannot prove yourself, in fact.
- RHRyan Holiday
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
You never have the opportunity. And so, what do they do? They get their faces tattooed. They get hooked on drugs. They're fucked up, man. They're just falling apart.
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's almost universal.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes. There, there, there's the exceptions, but the exceptions prove the rule.
- JRJoe Rogan
The exceptions are so rare.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And even the exceptions usually are fucked up.
- RHRyan Holiday
I heard this quote. It was actually about, uh, Marcus Aurelius. Uh, no, no. It was about a different boy. It was, it was in a book about Marcus Aurelius. Anyways, the guy said, "The worst thing that a son..." Or, this again, male. The, but the worst thing a, a kid can say to their parents is, like, "I was never a boy," or, "I was never a girl," like you never had a childhood.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
So, I imagine that's part of it, too, is like, from day one... Same with child stars, but also, like, the person who grows up knowing they're gonna... You're never a normal, regular kid-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
... where you're getting your ass kicked-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
... where you're confused-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
... where, where you're struggling to both fit in and, like, earn your place. You're just like, you know from the moment you're born you're special. And that's maybe why there's five good emperors in a row, is that each one of those emperors did not grow up thinking that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. That makes sense. Yeah, I, I, I don't know if it's possible for someone to... I mean, I think it's the same as being famous, right? He, I mean, essentially he's the son of the emperor. He is famous.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- 31:39 – 38:46
Stoic training through discomfort: cold plunges, endurance, and stillness under pressure
- RHRyan Holiday
I think one, one of the things I think a lot about and that I dislike, like if I was like, "Describe a philosopher," he'd be like, "University professor, turtleneck, like-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
"... tweed, you know, uh, jacket with pads on it," or whatever. Like, you'd think of a weakling. And in the ancient world, like, philosophers were people who did shit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
Right? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
They were warriors.
- RHRyan Holiday
They were warriors. They were kings. Like, Marcus Aurelius hunts. Uh, there's an early Stoic who's a distance runner, one who's a boxer. Like ... And what I love when you really read the Stoic texts is like, the, the, their metaphors are all sport. It's wrestling and fighting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
... and running and hunting, because they did those things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Those things are difficult.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And difficult things are good for you, and they're good for your mind. That's what people don't understand that don't pursue 'em. There's ... In America, unfortunately, there's this sort of, um, intellectual elitism. There's this, this mindset that some very smart people have, 'cause they're, they're very good at certain intellectual pursuits and they look down upon pursuits that are physical in nature, because, because of this sort of prejudice. They have this idea. And it's like ... I think it's also like a fear of encountering something that you're not good at or something that's gonna humiliate you and something's gonna make you feel bad. It's like, they c- maybe came from gym class, maybe came from, you know, being forced to participate in sports when they were younger and they didn't enjoy it, so they have this thing in their head that there's no value there.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. Seneca says, uh, "We treat the body rigorously so that it will not be disobedient to the mind."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh.
- RHRyan Holiday
I like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's good. That's good.
- RHRyan Holiday
You're ... Like, like, uh, when I, when I crank the knob to cold in the shower or I push myself when I'm running or lifting weights or swimming or whatever, I, I feel like part of what that is is an assertion about who's in charge.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. This is what my friend John Joseph says. John Joseph is the lead singer of the Cro-Mags, but he's also done like a shit ton of Ironmans. Uh, he has got this great saying about doing an Ironman. He goes, he goes, "That's when your mind has to tell your body who the fuck's in charge." (laughs)
- RHRyan Holiday
I love that. Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like ... And you hear it with his heavy New York accent. It's beautiful. But that's what it is. It's like you, you're ... You have to be able to endure. You have to be able to tell your body that this is what we do. And the more you do it, the easier it is, man. I made a video about it today when I was doing the cold plunge, 'cause it's like, it's a ... It's so much easier than it used to be but it's still hard.
- RHRyan Holiday
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's just easy because I'm as- I'm accustomed to the grind of it, because I do it every day. So I just get in there. Or almost every day. But it's like there's, there's something to that that's so valuable that doesn't get emphasized enough in our m- modern day conversations, and it doesn't get emphasized in, in media, it doesn't get talked about. Uh, i- it's ... Like, you have to search for that. You have to search for this idea that struggle is difficult. Or, you know, like the title of your book, the obstacle is the way. Like, getting through things is how you, you build a stronger foundation. It's how you develop character. It's how the mind understands how to manage difficult situations.
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, and I think it's a transferrable skill. So like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RHRyan Holiday
... you're doing it in the cold plunge or running or fighting or whatever, and then when you're ... Like, when I'm working on a book, and books are hard, you know? And they're ... Like halfway through I'm like, "This isn't coming together. This sucks. Should I stop?" I'm like, "I know this-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
"... feeling very well."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
"And I know that you don't listen to this feeling, so, like, fuck off."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 38:46 – 50:49
Phones, social media, and the anxiety of infinite input (plus Neuralink speculation)
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. Well, I try to design my life around like cultivating/protecting that feeling. So like, I- like I know people that are like they get up, and then the first thing they do in the morning is they're just like sucked into social media or the phone, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
And then like they're already riled up from like before they've- their feet have even touched the floor, they're like, "Can you believe so-and-so said this?" Or like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
... "I heard this." Or like, uh, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he was like- actually I was talking to Peter Attia, and he was saying the problem is, uh, he'll ch- he scans his email in the morning to check for fires. Like not literal fires, but like stuff going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
And I'm like, "So you're- you're starting the day looking (laughs) for things that are disturbing for- like you're looking for the worst stuff."
- JRJoe Rogan
But in his defense, he is a physician.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he's a man who has a bunch of clients, and if a client emails him, "Hey, my foot's numb-"
- RHRyan Holiday
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"... and I can't see out of my left eye," there's this fucking- he's gotta put out that fire.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, yeah. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's different than you or I.
- RHRyan Holiday
Uh, yes, definitely. And there are obviously professions where-
- JRJoe Rogan
You have to be more on call. But you can- and what we were talking about, and he was like, uh, he's happiest though when he like gives himself 30 minutes to an hour in the morning, which means waking up early, right, that like you're not sucked into that stuff. Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
And so, I- I try to- that's what- my rule is like I can only use the phone for an hour in the morning.
- JRJoe Rogan
I broke my phone once on a trip in Hawaii.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was, uh, bow hunting in Lanai, and I dropped my phone.
- RHRyan Holiday
Access?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And, um, I dropped my phone, and it started just randomly calling people.
- RHRyan Holiday
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It would just- it was wild. Like, I would hold it up, and it would call people, and I'd hang up, and it would just call somebody else. I showed my wife, I go, "Look at this. Watch this." And it was just doing this wild thing where it just kept calling p- I shut it off, turned it back on, it was doing the same thing. So I'm like, "Okay, I gotta get a new phone." But there's no Apple Store in Lanai. There's only 3,000 people-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on Lanai.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, I had-
- RHRyan Holiday
Isn't that all owned by one person?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, Larry Ellison, the Oracle guy.
- 50:49 – 59:31
Comparison, bandwidth, and doing better work: Stoic focus vs. outrage and politics addiction
- RHRyan Holiday
Interesting. Yeah, I wonder... I, I know having moved here, one of the really beneficial things was that, like, I don't know... I know, but I don't see that regularly, people who do what I do. So, it turns off kind of a, like a competitive part of my brain, where like I just get to be me and do what I want to do and focus on like what I think is cool and what I want to create.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
There's not that like keeping up with the Joneses part of... That can be a powerful driver of your career, but also a source of unhappiness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you feel that in New York?
- RHRyan Holiday
I felt it in New York, I felt it when I lived in LA. Uh, obviously, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
What did you... Like, how did you feel it? In like what way? Did you compare yourself to, like, other people?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- RHRyan Holiday
Just like, "Why are they doing better than me?" "Did you see that person's house?" You know, that, that sort of...
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-huh.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, comparison is the thief of joy, is the expression?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. I, I didn't know that quote when I lived in LA, uh, when I first got there. But I was on this sitcom. We were on a sitcom, right? Incredible.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God, I'm on television. This is amazing. And the people that I was with, who are great people, they were, they were all reading The Hollywood Reporter. And they would read this and they'd get upset, "Oh, why is she getting this? Oh, why is this happening? Why are they on Thursday night at eight o'clock? Why?" And I would go, "Hey." I go, "That's the devil's rag." I go, "What are you reading?" That's what I would call it, the devil's rag.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, that's so good.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I go, "Guys, last time I checked, I'm on fucking TV."
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Okay, I'm on television. You're on TV. We're on a TV show. And you're complaining that other people are on better TV shows, or on TV shows that have better ratings. This is crazy."
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you're looking for reasons why your life sucks when you're in one of the best positions that a person could ever be in in your line of work. You're literally on a successful television show. This is so crazy. And they're reading Variety to find all the people that are doing better than them. "Oh, look at this. Oh, they're in a movie now. I want to be in film." And it was wild to watch.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, that's one of the things that stoics say is like, you would be jel-... If you, if you didn't have what you had and someone else did, you would be jealous of that person.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
But all you're doing is comparing what you have to what someone else has instead of the gratitude of, "Holy shit, look how lucky I am."
- JRJoe Rogan
100%.
- RHRyan Holiday
That is sucking your happiness. But I think it's also... If, if good work comes from being present, it's preventing your ability from like actually being great on the television show that you're on. 'Cause you're, you're, you're spending energy out in the world on stuff that doesn't matter instead of being like, "I'm gonna be the best that I can be in the thing that I am."
- JRJoe Rogan
100%. 100%. If you are constantly dwelling on other people's opinions, if you are constantly dwelling on other people's success, it will 100% diminish your capability of doing good work.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's no, just no if, ands, or buts about it, because the mind has a certain amount of bandwidth. And the way I always des- express this when I talk to people about it, I go, "Look at it like a number." If you had 100 bandwidth, like if your bandwidth was 100, and then someone said something mean to you on Twitter, and you read that and responded and you're going back and forth. Now, how much do you have? I bet you got about... 30 is gone, 30% is just dedicated to this thing. It might be 40. You might have four... And now what happens? Now, now, whatever work you are actually trying to do is greatly diminished because you don't have the focus.
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, think of the arrogance, too, of being like, "I am so good, I can be on this show, or my... Like, I can, I can deliver this book in an environment where so many people would kill, like, to, to be able to do what I'm doing. So, many people are doing it and are... We're competing for a finite, you know, amounts, whatever. I can do it with only 60% of my capacity."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 59:31 – 1:17:35
Media ecosystems and incentives: Postman, pseudo-events, clickbait, and why podcasts are different
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, I'm going, I'm in the middle of another book, um, uh, I think it's called Amused to Death, and it's-
- RHRyan Holiday
Oh, by Neil Postman?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. And it-
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah, I was listening to the epi- was it, um, Neil Brennan recommended it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, he did, and that's Amusing Ourselves to Death. Yeah-
- RHRyan Holiday
The greatest books ever written.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Neil Postman. It's great.
- RHRyan Holiday
Incredible.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what's fascinating about it, Neil Brennan recommends it, I think, when I, he was on my podcast, right?
- RHRyan Holiday
Yes, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, one of the things that's fascinating about it is that it, it's from the 1980s, and they talk about television the same way we talk about social media today. And he compares television to the way they talked about the printing press.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When the printing press was first made available, a lot of people thought it was a disaster and that really, the written word on, on a piece of paper in a book, like a written book, was the way to go.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this printing plu- press was some cheap, easy cop-out that was gonna make people stupid. Isn't that fascinating?
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, I love Amusing Ourselves to Death. There's another book called, um, The Image by Daniel Boorstin, which was written in the '60s, and he was talking about this thing called pseudo-events. Like, a press conference is a pseudo-event.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- RHRyan Holiday
He, he was like, "It exists for no other reason but to get media attention."That's why, that's why they do a weigh-in in a fight, right? Like, uh, so cameras will be there. Maybe something will happen and then it will get more attention, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- RHRyan Holiday
Like, how... So, he's talking about how much of what we respond to, even then, was not real, but things that were made for the media to suck our attention away. And then you go back even further, there's another book called The Brass Check, which was written in, I don't know, 1910, 1912, 19- Anyways, Upton Sinclair, who wrote The Jungle. You know The Jungle?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- RHRyan Holiday
The expose of the meatpacking industry?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
He wrote an expose of the media industry in, like, the 1910s about how almost all the same things that were happening then are hap- Like, it, e- this has always been a problem, it's just different mediums, uh, ex- Like, what Postman is saying is that when television is the dominant medium, the world conforms around that medium.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RHRyan Holiday
And before that, it was radio, and then before that it was newspapers, and now it's social media and, uh, you know, video and these other things. And so, like, our world conforms around what the medium wants, right? Like, what the medium is good at.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, if we make it too easy, then people get soft and lazy, and I think that's what he's talking about with, when it comes to television, and then he's comparing it to the way Lincoln's debates were.
- RHRyan Holiday
Oh, yeah, they're like seven hours.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- RHRyan Holiday
People went home for lunch, and then came back.
- 1:17:35 – 1:21:55
Platform power and “audience capture”: Substack, censorship risk, and ideological branding
- RHRyan Holiday
Well, that's what I like. I like Substacks that way, the idea that you're writing for an audience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- RHRyan Holiday
And ideally that audience is paying you, so you're not, like, doing this sort of virally thing. I think the only downside- the only risk can be i- do you get in a place where, I'm not saying you are, but some people are, where you're like, "If I tell these people what they don't want to hear, that costs me money."
- JRJoe Rogan
I think the big risk today is someone like Substack decides to disempower you and to take away your platform, and that's a real issue.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I know people that have been banned from PayPal. I know people that have- they- they can't use PayPal anymore. I know people that have been kicked off of, you know, YouTube. I- I know a lot of people that have- that- where things have happened where someone has decided that they're gonna censor this person's positions on things.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah. But they call this audience capture, though, like, where you are...... you're, because these people are paying you, because that's your audience, you're not necessarily thinking about what's true, you're thinking about what they want to hear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Yes. I've seen that too. That's dangerous. It's very dangerous for comedians. You see comedians, they find an audience, uh, like maybe they get a certain amount of tension from attacking people.
- RHRyan Holiday
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a big one. And then they really lean into it and that becomes their thing. They just go after people-
Episode duration: 2:56:41
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