Joe Rogan Experience #1848 - Francis Foster & Konstanin Kisin

1. 0:00 – 2:58

   UK podcast boom, post-COVID media shift, and importing American culture wars

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin0:00

      (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. FFFrancis Foster0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) What happened?

   3. NANarrator0:13

      (laughs)

   4. FFFrancis Foster0:14

      (laughs)

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin0:15

      (laughs)

   6. FFFrancis Foster0:15

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      First of all, gentlemen, welcome. I've been in- enjoying your show. So, it's nice to see you in real life and talk to you in person. It's cool.

   8. FFFrancis Foster0:23

      Yeah.

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin0:23

      It's really great of you to have us, man. It's such a pleasure, uh, to meet you, uh, 'cause, you know, uh, all of us are inspired by what you started, you know. We all look up to you, so, um, it's amazing being here.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Oh, thank you. Well, it's nice to meet you guys too. I, I enjoy your, your conversations. I really think that, uh, people like you that are reasonable and intelligent and have legitimate f- opinions grounded in facts, it's like, it's very important.

   11. FFFrancis Foster0:49

       Oh, it's tremendously important. But-

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Oh, p- hold on a second.

   13. FFFrancis Foster0:51

       Oh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       One microphone's not on.

   15. FFFrancis Foster0:54

       See, this is another one-

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:55

       This is where I do most of the talking on our show, man.

   17. FFFrancis Foster0:57

       Yeah. This is how I'm getting fucking silenced.

   18. NANarrator1:00

       (laughs)

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin1:00

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       (laughs)

   21. FFFrancis Foster1:01

       It's the goddamn government.

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       (sighs) We'll figure out what's up with them.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin1:04

       Yeah, we were just shit talking about Joe Biden before we started, so that's-

   25. FFFrancis Foster1:07

       Yeah.

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin1:07

       ... probably what's happened there, man.

   27. FFFrancis Foster1:08

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       But why would he only cancel yours?

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin1:10

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       That Francis fella's gotta go.
2. 2:58 – 5:05

   Selective outrage and institutional hypocrisy: Epstein, the Vatican, and accountability

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:58

      Well, it's just, it's not balanced. The outrage is not balanced, you know. E- even the outrage about things you should be outraged about, like Jeffrey Epstein.

   2. FFFrancis Foster3:06

      Mm.

   3. Mm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:06

      That, that outrage was balanced, right? Sort of, right? But what about the Catholic Church?

   5. FFFrancis Foster3:11

      Mm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:11

      Like why, why isn't everybody really freaking out over... I was just in Italy.

   7. FFFrancis Foster3:15

      Mm.

   8. Mm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      And, uh, one of the things that's nuts is the Vatican is a country.

   10. FFFrancis Foster3:19

       Yeah.

   11. Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       It's a country filled with pedophiles.

   13. FFFrancis Foster3:21

       (laughs)

   14. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       Yeah.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin3:22

       (laughs)

   17. FFFrancis Foster3:22

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:22

       It's a country filled with pedophiles and stolen art. It's a small, like hundred-yard, like what is it, 100 acres, I think?

   19. FFFrancis Foster3:28

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       It's a 100-acre, rather, um, country-

   21. FFFrancis Foster3:32

       Mm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       ... inside of a city, filled with pedophiles.

   23. FFFrancis Foster3:34

       Yeah, absolutely. But-

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin3:35

       This is why I love America, man.

   25. FFFrancis Foster3:37

       (laughs)

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin3:37

       'Cause in the UK, we have libel laws, so-

   27. FFFrancis Foster3:39

       Yeah.

   28. KKKonstantin Kisin3:39

       ... if you say something like that, and you then have to be able to prove it. Otherwise, you can get sued.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:43

       Well, you can kind of prove that.

   30. KKKonstantin Kisin3:45

       (laughs)
3. 5:05 – 9:41

   UK grooming gangs scandal and the costs of taboos around race and class

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin5:05

      It, it's amazing how people cover this stuff up, like I don't know if you followed the grooming gangs stories from the UK, but basically we had a situation for decades where, uh, young girls were being abused, um, in, in the, in the thousands. Uh, potentially half a million. And it was covered up, because-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      What... I don't- I'm not aware of this at all.

   3. KKKonstantin Kisin5:24

      Well, right. So what happened was it was basically people from a certain background. It was what we call i- in the UK South Asian, so Bangladeshi and Pakistani mostly, and they were abusing Sikh and, and, uh, local British white girls, uh, in the hundreds of thousands. We had one of the victims on our show, um, El-... Dr. Ella Hill, very brave woman. And it was covered up for decades because... And we've just had a report come out to try and find out why it was covered up, why it wasn't investigated, 'cause these people went to the police and they were told, "There's nothing we can do for you."Oh, my God.

   4. FFFrancis Foster5:57

      Yeah.

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin5:57

      And he wasn't... He was, he wasn't investigated and wasn't reported on properly because of, quote, "sensitivities about race." Right? So this, all this stuff gets covered up for all kinds of rea-... It's, it's mind-blowing, man, what people get away with, uh-

   6. FFFrancis Foster6:09

      Yeah.

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin6:09

      ... on this sort of thing.

   8. FFFrancis Foster6:10

      Because the politicians who should have been exposing it, the people who should have been talking about it, the police who should have been investigated were worried about being labeled racist. In fact, one famous tweet from a Labour MP told some of these people to shut up for the sake of diversity.

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin6:26

      She retweeted a tweet that said that, yeah.

   10. FFFrancis Foster6:27

       Sorry, re, retweeted it. My apologies.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       (sighs)

   12. KKKonstantin Kisin6:29

       Shut up for the sake of diversity.

   13. FFFrancis Foster6:30

       Sake of diversity.

   14. KKKonstantin Kisin6:30

       These are rape victims, Joe.

   15. FFFrancis Foster6:31

       Yeah.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin6:31

       And some of them were murdered.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:33

       Oh, my God.

   18. FFFrancis Foster6:33

       Yeah. And not just rape victims as well, kids.

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin6:36

       Kids.

   20. FFFrancis Foster6:36

       Underage kids.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:37

       (sighs) Yeah.

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin6:38

       Uh, and you haven't heard about it 'cause-

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:40

       At all.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin6:41

       Right.

   25. FFFrancis Foster6:41

       It's massively taboo.

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin6:43

       Yeah.

   27. FFFrancis Foster6:43

       Even to talk about, uh, in, in polite society gets... You know, people feel very uncomfortable talking about this because it comes from communities like, you know, b-... what you would say like Asian communities and white, uh, particularly white working class girls and Sikh girls. So people feel very uncomfortable about this.

   28. KKKonstantin Kisin7:03

       Mm-hmm.

   29. FFFrancis Foster7:03

       They're far more comfortable talking about Epstein because in their heads it's punching up.

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:07

       Right.
4. 9:41 – 11:01

   Identity politics vs individual judgment: MLK ideals and scapegoating

   1. KKKonstantin Kisin9:41

      This, this is why this, this identity politics is such a problem because when you stop treating people as individuals-

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:47

      Right.

   3. KKKonstantin Kisin9:47

      ... who ha- behave correctly or incorrectly, lawfully, unlawfully, you start to go, "Well, these people can't commit a crime anymore." Right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:54

      Right. Right.

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin9:54

      When these people commit a crime by just being whatever. That's a problem.

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:58

      (sighs)

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin9:58

      We gotta get back to the MLK idea of everybody being judged by the content of their character.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      Were we ever there?

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin10:05

      I don't know. We, we were trying-

   10. JRJoe Rogan10:06

       When you say get back to it-

   11. KKKonstantin Kisin10:07

       Yeah, I, I... What I-

   12. JRJoe Rogan10:07

       ... get back to the idea.

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin10:08

       You're right. It's a good d- point that you picked me up on it. What I mean is we gotta be-... get back to trying to get there.

   14. JRJoe Rogan10:13

       Yeah.

   15. FFFrancis Foster10:13

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin10:14

       Do you see what I'm saying?

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:14

       Yeah.

   18. KKKonstantin Kisin10:15

       That's what we gotta get back to, the idea that that's what we... that's the dream.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:18

       Right.

   20. KKKonstantin Kisin10:19

       And we'll probably never get there because we're human beings, we're not perfect, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:22

       That's one of the most disturbing aspects of like this hardcore left progressivism is that they are willing to ignore reality for the sake of this narrative-

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin10:33

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:33

       ... that they have.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin10:34

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       And also they're willing to lump... m-... to make these mass generalizations and lump everyone-

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin10:40

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:40

       ... like in... like, like particularly if they're harder to defend, like straight white men.

   28. KKKonstantin Kisin10:44

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:44

       Like that's a great one, that's a awesome scapegoat.

   30. KKKonstantin Kisin10:46

       Mm-hmm.
5. 11:01 – 17:38

   Brexit, class resentment, and Francis’ family story about labeling people ‘racist’

   1. FFFrancis Foster11:01

      And that's so true. I remember when Brexit happened in 2016, I started to notice more and more when people were talking, the term old white man became an insult.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:10

      Yeah.

   3. FFFrancis Foster11:10

      And suddenly if you're an old white man, that meant that you were racist, particularly if you voted for Brexit. And that really angered me. So... and, and for the... for the reason my dad, uh, he grew up in a very poor part of the north of England, which is Wigan, uh, the... Orwells actually wrote a book about it, The Road to Wigan Pier, talking about the deprivation of that, uh, of that particular part of the world. And my dad voted for Brexit. My dad voted for Brexit because he said that he wanted the UK to be independent of Europe. He loves Europe but he didn't believe that the y-... the EU should be making rules for the UK. And my dad married my mother, who is Latin American, a woman of color and I f-...Fucking hate that term.

   4. JRJoe Rogan11:54

      (laughs)

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin11:54

      She's Latinx, mate. (laughs)

   6. FFFrancis Foster11:55

      Yeah. She's Latinx. I asked my mum why she was... (laughs) if she was Latinx. She went, "Que coño es eso."

   7. KKKonstantin Kisin12:01

      Uh, yeah. "What the fuck is this?"

   8. FFFrancis Foster12:03

      "What the fuck is that?" Basically. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:04

      Latinx is one of my favorite faux pas.

   10. FFFrancis Foster12:06

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:06

       It's such a huge mistake because the Latino people are not willing to embrace that at all.

   12. FFFrancis Foster12:12

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:12

       You literally... You void out half of their language.

   14. KKKonstantin Kisin12:15

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       Like, their language has gender built into it.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin12:18

       Right.

   17. FFFrancis Foster12:18

       And you know a lot of Latino people, particularly Venezuelans and Cubans, they don't like the left-wing, man. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Yeah.

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin12:24

       Yeah. I know.

   20. FFFrancis Foster12:24

       They've s- they've seen-

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Particularly Cubans. Yeah.

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin12:26

       Yeah. Well, like us, they've seen what, what that-

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:28

       Yeah.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin12:28

       ... ideology does, right?

   25. FFFrancis Foster12:29

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:29

       Well, particularly people that have... Where their families have come from communist countries.

   27. KKKonstantin Kisin12:34

       Yeah. Well, like me-

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:34

       Yeah.

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin12:34

       ... and Francis, right?

   30. FFFrancis Foster12:36

       Yeah.
6. 17:38 – 27:54

   Teaching in tough London schools: ‘bigotry of low expectations’ and boys in classrooms

   1. FFFrancis Foster17:38

      Um, uh, so I was a teacher for 12 years, and I consider myself to be from the left-I was a teacher in really poor, working-class backgrounds in London-

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:49

      That's true.

   3. FFFrancis Foster17:49

      ... and other places as well. And, and I wanted to get into that 'cause I just got... This is something that I wanted to do. I wanted to help the next generation. I wanted to work with these kids. And then, slowly but surely, I've seen my side go completely tom-toe.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:04

      Yeah.

   5. FFFrancis Foster18:04

      They've gone nuts.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:05

      When did it happen? When did it start happening over there?

   7. FFFrancis Foster18:08

      I, look, Brexit played a big part. We, Konstantin and I always use these ph- this phrase, "Broke people's brains."

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:14

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KKKonstantin Kisin18:14

      Yeah. Yeah.

   10. FFFrancis Foster18:14

       COVID broke people's brains-

   11. JRJoe Rogan18:16

       Yeah.

   12. FFFrancis Foster18:16

       ... but Brexit, Trump, broke people's brains.

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin18:17

       Yeah, but man, you tell me all the stories about working in a school way before then when you were being told, "Well, you can't p- teach people of this race." We all... Te- tell them that.

   14. FFFrancis Foster18:25

       Look, so, for instance, in school, I remember attending this one workshop, and this had my blood boiling. So, I used to work in a place called, uh... In, in East London, right? In a place called Newham, in this wonderful school, and I remember the... We got this one guy come in to, to teach us, right? To do a bit of teacher training. And he was ch- teaching us how to train b... How to teach boys. And I'm like, "Okay." In particular, English. Now, I'm a boy, obviously you're a man, and I loved gr... And I loved reading when I was a kid. Reading was my escape, particularly being an only child. And he was saying to us, right, "You've got to have different expectation with boys than you have with girls." And suddenly, my ears picked up. I was up... I was thinking, "Wh- what, where are you going with this?" And he was like, "You can't expect them to sit down and write like a girl could."

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:09

       (laughs)

   16. FFFrancis Foster19:09

       "Because they're different. Boys, you know, you've just got to expect that they're gonna make... They're gonna write a little less, they're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna be as engaged, and you need to have extra stimuluses for them as a result," and all this. And I'm thinking, "This is the bigotry of low expectation." What I've got in my classroom are working-class boys from desperately poor backgrounds, many of whom have grown up without a dad, and we all know the stats about, about what that entails.

   17. KKKonstantin Kisin19:34

       Mm-hmm.

   18. FFFrancis Foster19:35

       For most of those kids, the only way out of the poverty that they have grown up in is education. That is it. And you want me to go into my classroom and say to these boys, who have already got enough challenges as it is, and you know, and they're, uh, uh, at 10 and 11, the gangs are starting to circle, and they've, you know, start... And they're starting to stray into that world. You want me to say to them that they are not as capable for their writing as girls. Well, why don't we just scrap it and just let them roam free? It absolutely infuriated me. To me, the worst thing about this progressive movement is the bigotry of low expectations-

   19. KKKonstantin Kisin20:12

       Hmm.

   20. FFFrancis Foster20:12

       ... and saying to people, "You know what? You need our help, or you're not going to be as good at us, as us." And to me that's disgusting 'cause you're dooming people to not have the life that they could have if you have high expectations for them. Because I'm telling you something, if you go into these schools or these places of learning and you have high expectations to, for these kids, the vast majority will meet it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan20:34

       Mm-hmm. So, with boys in particular, like, what is the difference from your personal experience of, uh, teaching boys?

   22. FFFrancis Foster20:42

       So, my personal experience of teaching boys is they're more rambunctious. You know, they've got more energy. You know-

   23. KKKonstantin Kisin20:47

       They like to break shit. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:48

       Yeah. (laughs)

   25. FFFrancis Foster20:48

       (laughs) They like to break shit.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:50

       Yeah.

   27. FFFrancis Foster20:50

       You know, they... You know, the, they're not as mature as girls.

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:54

       Right.

   29. FFFrancis Foster20:54

       You've got... You've just got to accept that as well. And, but here's the thing that, but... There's a joy that boys bring to a classroom. Like, girls tend to be more obedient, but with boys, you can tend to have a little bit more fun. You can have a little bit more back and forth, or banter as we call it in London, or in the UK. So, boys are different like that. But the thing is with boys is they respond to a challenge. If you say to them, "I want, by the end of this lesson, Tony, I want four paragraphs, and I want capital letter, full stop, I want you to have all your apostrophes, and I want you to get that done by half past. Prove to me you can do it." A boy will be like, "Yes." Because that's how we respond as men. We respond to challenges. We respond to people saying to us, "Come on, meet this expectation." But if you say to the, somebody, "You're never going to do it," most people will agree. I mean, there'll be the odd kid who will just want to prove you wrong, but the vast majority will never do that.

   30. KKKonstantin Kisin21:52

       Mm-hmm.
7. 27:54 – 31:42

   Discipline, confidence, and reframing failure: life lessons from school and sport

   1. FFFrancis Foster27:54

      It, it does. And one of the things that teaching gives you that is a real understanding of discipline and how important discipline is.

   2. JRJoe Rogan28:02

      Yeah.

   3. FFFrancis Foster28:02

      And without discipline, without understanding that the most important thing is turning up and doing your best-

   4. JRJoe Rogan28:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KKKonstantin Kisin28:09

      Yeah.

   6. FFFrancis Foster28:09

      ... it doesn't matter how smart you are, it doesn't matter how gifted you are, it doesn't matter, all of these things. If you're not gonna s- turn up every day and do your best, you're not gonna make it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:20

      No.

   8. FFFrancis Foster28:20

      It's, it's really interesting to see.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:22

      Yeah.

   10. FFFrancis Foster28:22

       Like, the kids frequently who did the best, the kid, they were the kids who worked, they were the kids who focused.

   11. JRJoe Rogan28:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. FFFrancis Foster28:28

       They were the kids who understood that in order to be good at something, you need to turn up.

   13. JRJoe Rogan28:33

       Yeah.

   14. KKKonstantin Kisin28:34

       Yeah, that's one of the things I had to cultivate in myself, because I didn't have anyone explain that to me when I was a kid.

   15. FFFrancis Foster28:39

       Mm.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin28:40

       I don't know if you did, but, like, uh, I was smart, but I didn't work hard at school.

   17. JRJoe Rogan28:45

       'Cause it was easier for you.

   18. KKKonstantin Kisin28:46

       'Cause it was easier, right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan28:47

       Yeah, that's a-

   20. KKKonstantin Kisin28:47

       And, and it was only when I became an adult and I realized that I wanna do things in the world that I realized, actually, you have got to work so hard to create anything. And that's when I started cultivating this in myself. But I saw this at school, you know, there was a guy that I, I went to school with, wasn't as smart as me, wasn't as this and that, but he was way more successful. And then I met his dad. And I remember his dad telling me this, um, we were on the sidelines watching a rugby game. And another kid said to him, "Oh, the, like, like, yesterday there was this situation in a, in a game where someone was taking a, a penalty kick to win the game. Imagine how scary that must be." And my friend's dad, the, the friend who was successful, his dad, uh, he went, "No, think about it like this. How many people wanna be in that position? And when you score, how many people are just so with you and delighted?"

   21. JRJoe Rogan29:36

       Yeah.

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin29:37

       And that little reframe-

   23. JRJoe Rogan29:38

       Yeah.

   24. KKKonstantin Kisin29:39

       That's all it takes sometimes, just a little, uh, understanding how to build confidence in yourself or how to work hard. And not enough kids get that, man. And it- I, I just- I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity as an adult to develop that because you can't do anything without that. Doesn't matter how smart you are.

   25. JRJoe Rogan29:53

       There's an expression in America, "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard."

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin29:57

       Right.

   27. FFFrancis Foster29:57

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan29:57

       It's a great expression.

   29. KKKonstantin Kisin29:59

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan29:59

       It's so important. But what you're talking about is also framing things.
8. 31:42 – 40:06

   Comedy as craft and community: envy, collaboration, and the fear of new material

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:42

      But one of the things that we did at The Comedy Store, and then we're doing also here in Austin, is cultivating a legitimate community.

   2. KKKonstantin Kisin31:48

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:49

      We have a very, very supportive community of comics and it's, it's a different world now.

   4. KKKonstantin Kisin31:53

      Mm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:54

      Comics used to think of other comics as being the competition, that somehow or another if someone did well, it takes away from you. But now, instead, they, they look at it as when someone's doing well, that you can do well too. Also that you're a part of the same community, so when someone does well, it sort of legitimizes the community.

   6. KKKonstantin Kisin32:11

      Yeah. It- it's awesome that you have that here, because in the UK-

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:13

      (laughs)

   8. KKKonstantin Kisin32:13

      ... we're still in the crabs in a bucket mentality like we were.

   9. FFFrancis Foster32:15

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       They can get out of it. They can get out of it. You just need the, the top dogs to accept this new way of thinking of things.

   11. KKKonstantin Kisin32:22

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:22

       And try to help the young guys coming up and en- encourage this different kind of thinking.

   13. KKKonstantin Kisin32:26

       Mm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       You know?

   15. FFFrancis Foster32:27

       I think- I think that's so right to- is interrupt. I think that's so important, Joe.

   16. KKKonstantin Kisin32:30

       It is. Yeah.

   17. FFFrancis Foster32:30

       I r- I really do, because here's the thing, you know. That- that way of thinking, of like, "Oh my- I've got to get this and if someone comes here, they're gonna..." You're gonna be miserable.

   18. KKKonstantin Kisin32:40

       Yeah.

   19. FFFrancis Foster32:41

       You're gonna be miserable, you're gonna be filled with anxiety. Even if you're doing well-

   20. KKKonstantin Kisin32:44

       Yeah.

   21. FFFrancis Foster32:44

       ... you're always gonna have your, your head over-

   22. KKKonstantin Kisin32:46

       Mm-hmm.

   23. FFFrancis Foster32:46

       ... the shoulder looking, thinking, "Who's coming up behind me? Who's gonna take my stuff?"

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       It's famine mentality.

   25. FFFrancis Foster32:51

       Yeah.

   26. KKKonstantin Kisin32:51

       Yeah.

   27. FFFrancis Foster32:52

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:52

       And it's not- it's not good. It's not good for art.

   29. FFFrancis Foster32:54

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       It's the worst thing for art because when someone does really well i- that weird green envy that comes up, you gotta fig- you gotta figure out how to turn that into motivation.
9. 40:06 – 51:23

   How Francis taught stand-up: lesson plans, joke structure, and finding authenticity

   1. FFFrancis Foster40:06

      Well, I was working at this club, uh, Angel. And you know, it's tough to make money at comedy. I was, I was doing all the weekends at clubs. Uh, but one of the reasons I- I was doing it is 'cause my mum's disabled, so I need to ge- get money back to my dad and m- my mum in order to support them, to pay for cleaners and stuff like that. So, I needed more money. And they said, very kindly said to me, "Why don't you run a standup course?" When I qualified as a teacher, for six years I was a drama teacher. That's how I or- originally started, and then I went into primary. And then, I thought about it, and I, I saw the way that other people were teaching. And I thought, "I've actually got the opportunity here, as someone who trained as a teacher-"

   2. JRJoe Rogan40:45

      Yeah.

   3. FFFrancis Foster40:45

      "... who's got 10 years or nine years experience at the time. I can actually teach it like a proper lesson." So, I created lesson plans. So, the first time we started off, we started off with improv for them, getting to know each other, various improv games. And then, the second lesson, we went into joke writing. So, I did the structure: setup, punchline. And then, what we did is we looked at joke structure from people like, uh, Carlin. Um, who else? Mitch Hedberg. All these different people. And what I would do is I would put six jokes on the board from these people, but I wouldn't put their names. And one of them... Two jokes were written by the same person. I got them into pairs. I go, "Right, analyze the jokes."... which one was written by the same person and why. So, what that would do is, because in teaching, if I'm just there being didactic and talking at you, eventually you're gonna switch off 'cause that's how the brain works. But if you say to them, "Write. Analyze it, discuss it amongst yourselves." So, that was one of the exercises that really worked. 'Cause then they looked at it, and from that, they looked at tone, they looked at language, they looked at who's- who is the butt of this joke? They looked at style. They looked at does gender influence jokes, which of course it does. And we then started to look at it, pick it apart, and then they could work out who it was and why. So, that's... We then started off. I then gave them a generic setup. Sorry, just headbutted the mic. And got them to write a punchline for a generic setup. I can't remember what the setup was. Um, "I took grandad out the other day." That was the setup. And then they had to write punchlines for it. I also looked at pivot words. So, an example of a pivot word is... I'm trying to remember this now. So, I had a joke from, uh, Emo Philips who said, uh, "I caught my wife in bed with another man. I was crushed. I said, 'Get off me, U2.'" Right? Great joke. The pivot word in that is crushed, right? And the... It's a pivot word because it's got a duality of meaning. And that's why the English language is magical when it comes to joke writing. It's got these two... It's got this duality of meaning. So, about 2016, I opened for Eddie Izzard, but I was... uh, I did comedy in Spanish. And it was actually a lot more difficult because Spanish, it doesn't have those words which are dui- which have those dual meanings that you can pivot on.

   4. Mm.

   5. So, by understanding that with these words which you can pivot on, which you can twist, you can make the punch even stronger.

   6. Mm.

   7. Great joke writing is like writing a thriller. It needs to make sense, it needs to be logical, but they can't predict where the twist is gonna come.

   8. Right.

   9. Because if you predict where the twist is gonna come, it's like watching a thriller and go, "Okay, I get it. He's the killer. She really fancies him. They're gonna go out on a date, and it's gonna be a twist," and you're gonna get bored. If the twist doesn't make sense with your jokes, you're gonna be like, "This is a stupid plot."

   10. Mm. Right.

   11. But if the twist makes sense, is it has a logic, if it has a consistent worldview, then you're gonna be hooked into the thriller and you're gonna be hanging on every single twist and turn.

   12. Mm.

   13. And that is the art of great joke writing. So, we'd do three hours on joke writing and I used to love it. And then when they, they would say out their jokes about, you know, "I took grandad out the other day," and they gave the punchline, if the joke was lo-... If they laughed, I'd analyze it and we'd go, "Why did that work?" But here's the thing. This is when people really started to learn. If it didn't work, I'd, I'd ask everyone to stop. I'd say, "Look, we're just gonna use your joke as an example, and I just want you to know, I write hundreds of jokes, the vast majority of which will never work." And we'll put it up on the board and we'll go, "Why doesn't it work, this joke?" And together, we would work out why it was. And most of the time, it was logic. And then I took it back to them, I go, "Can we make this joke work?" And then they'd go off and then they'd write. And a lot of the time we'd make a joke that would actually work. So, it's by doing that consistently all the time. I used to do things like Worlds Colliding, where I used to take... I don't know, this was in 2018. Take a topic like Trump, take a topic like supermarkets. I go, "Right, we're gonna create a, a joke about Trump and a supermarket." You know, Target, whatever it is. "Think about everything you can think of Trump. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Think about a spider diagram. Everything you can think about a supermarket. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. A particular supermarket, whatever it be. Okay, now trying to find links between the two." And then we would write jokes with Trump and the supermarket, and a lot of the time they wrote good stuff that you would never, ever have heard a comedian do before. Because I said to them, "It's not about first thought, second th- third thought." Because here's the thing, if the audience can predict your punchline, throw the joke away because it means that your joke isn't good. You... They can't predict the punch. That is the most important thing. So, we just went over it, and then we t- and then one of the things that I said to them was, "You need to tell a story. I want you to tell a story. I don't care about interesting, I don't care about funny, I don't care about any of that. I want a story that you would tell your buddies round the table in the pub." And they would get up and tell the story. And then I would ask them about their lives, who they are, where they're from. And here's the thing, we've all got stuff that's interesting about us. This is why this woke crap is so toxic, 'cause I used to hear people say more and more, "Oh, I'm just a White guy. I'm, I'm j- I'm just like..." Fuck off. It doesn't matter. "Where are you from?" "Oh, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." "What about your mum?" "Oh, my mum passed when I was eight and then I did this and I did that."

   14. Mm.

   15. I said, "That's interesting. Let's talk about that. Talk about what it's like to grow up as an only kid in a school where you were bullied. You didn't have a mum, but you did this. That's interesting."

   16. Mm.

   17. And by the end, most of it, even if they weren't the funniest comedians in the world, they would come out and they would be interesting. You felt like you actually understood-

   18. Mm.

   19. ... who they were. And that's the most important thing, because most comedy courses were like cookie cutter.

   20. Yep.

   21. And I never wanted to create that. I wanted to create somebody or help somebody get to be authentic. 'Cause it's like David Mamet said, "Words that come from the heart go to the heart."

   22. And when you did this, was there an element of this course that involved them getting on stage?

   23. Yes, they got-

   24. And had any of these people never been on stage before?

   25. Some of them had never been on stage. And-

   26. Most of them, I think.

   27. Yeah, most of them.

   28. Mm.

   29. So, the first half would be on theory and we'd look at things like joke writing, you know, all the rest of it.... and the second half would be them being on stage, doing their thing on stage. And then I would give them feedback and I'd be like, "This is great. This is really interesting. Don't... You can do better than this, but really focus on this 'cause this is really interesting. That great joke you did there, maybe you can talk about this here and that and this."

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       Hmm.
10. 51:23 – 59:37

    Triggernometry’s origin and the UK comedy gatekeeper machine (agents, Edinburgh, TV)

    1. KKKonstantin Kisin51:23

       It's a long and complicated story as well, because one of the things that happened when we started doing the show, uh, is we became evil and right wing and, and whatever. So, we, we ended up leaving that, I'll say, leaving that club eventually.

    2. JRJoe Rogan51:36

       Mm-hmm. They, the-

    3. KKKonstantin Kisin51:37

       What-

    4. JRJoe Rogan51:37

       So, they accused you of being right wing?

    5. KKKonstantin Kisin51:39

       No, no, they found an excuse to, to get rid of us.

    6. FFFrancis Foster51:42

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:42

       Real... so-

    8. KKKonstantin Kisin51:43

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan51:43

       ... you were fine before that?

    10. KKKonstantin Kisin51:44

        Yeah. Oh, no, Francis used to he- help run the club, yeah.

    11. FFFrancis Foster51:47

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan51:47

        And they decided that you-

    13. KKKonstantin Kisin51:48

        No, man, I don't wanna shit on the club. They g- they-

    14. JRJoe Rogan51:49

        No, no, no, but it's okay, but, but just in terms of, like, the attitude of whatever community. Like, someone had decided that you guys were problematic? Like, what was it?

    15. KKKonstantin Kisin51:58

        Other comedians... When we signed to a, to an agent, uh, about a year and a half ago, there was a bunch of comedians who tried to get our agent to drop us. That's how it worked.

    16. JRJoe Rogan52:07

        Based on what?

    17. KKKonstantin Kisin52:08

        Based on the fact that we talk to people who are not just on the left.

    18. JRJoe Rogan52:12

        Exhales ] The p- the platforming.

    19. KKKonstantin Kisin52:14

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        That, yeah, that conversation.

    21. KKKonstantin Kisin52:16

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan52:16

        That is a bizarre accusation-

    23. KKKonstantin Kisin52:18

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan52:18

        ... platforming.

    25. KKKonstantin Kisin52:19

        Yeah, yeah. Well-

    26. JRJoe Rogan52:20

        You know?

    27. KKKonstantin Kisin52:20

        ... we were just interested in having conversations with different people, but what we found very quickly is, uh, certainly in the comedy world that we were coming from-

    28. JRJoe Rogan52:27

        Yeah.

    29. KKKonstantin Kisin52:27

        ... this is... You don't do this. You don't do this. It was made very clear to us.

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:31

        But those comics have to be shit comics. There's no way they're good.
11. 59:37 – 1:10:39

    Viral ‘no jokes allowed’ contract and the chilling effect of soft censorship

    1. KKKonstantin Kisin59:37

       And I was lucky, man, because what happened that year is I had, I was for the first time in my life had a hu- I was part of a huge news story that had happened. Uh, and so I had the PI. I was in the newspaper.

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:47

       What was the news story?

    3. KKKonstantin Kisin59:49

       So, at the very end of 2018, uh, I was d- doing a gig at Top Secret, brilliant club, if you're ever in London, you should play it. Um, and this guy came up to me and said, "Oh, man, I loved your set. You absolutely crushed it. Will you come and help us raise money for charity at my college?" I was like, "Yeah, sure. Whatever." Next, uh, well, forget all about it, and then in about three weeks, I got an email from them saying, "Please, uh, come and help us, uh, raise money for charity. Uh, and, uh, in order to, uh, perform, we have a contract that you need to sign." Okay. I open the file and it said, "We have a zero tolerance policy on racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, Islamophobia, anti-religion, anti-atheism, and all jokes must be respectful and kind."

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

       (smacks lips) Oh. So no comedy?

    5. KKKonstantin Kisin1:00:38

       Right. (laughs)

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

       (laughs)

    7. FFFrancis Foster1:00:40

       (laughs)

    8. KKKonstantin Kisin1:00:40

       So, and I, I turned it down, right? I tweet about it to, like, 1,000 people at the time or whatever it was, and this thing goes super viral. Super viral. I'm talking about this was the day, the day that it went ... uh, it was the second most read story on the BBC News website, which is the biggest news website in the UK, on the day that the Prime Minister had nearly been removed from office by her own party. So, that's the equivalent of the Democrats impeaching Joe Biden and the second story on CNN and Fox is, "Unname- no name comedian turns down unpaid gig from two-bit college."

    9. FFFrancis Foster1:01:14

       (laughs)

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

        (laughs)

    11. FFFrancis Foster1:01:14

        Woo!

    12. KKKonstantin Kisin1:01:14

        That's how it was. That's how big it was, right?

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

        And was it big because they were criticizing you or were they realizing how crazy it was?

    14. KKKonstantin Kisin1:01:21

        Uh, it was a bit of both, I think. And, uh, w- that's when I realized, Joe, this is the thing. See, I thought that Francis and I and a couple of other, the rest of us, we were just like these weirdos who were campaigning about, you know, s- the stuff that was going on in comedy and generally. But when that story went that viral, I got thousands of messages and thousands of emails from ordinary people saying, "I can't say what I think at work. I can't say what I think here." And that's when I realized, we've got a genuine problem in society where everyone feels like they're walking around having signed that contract.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

        Yeah.

    16. KKKonstantin Kisin1:01:54

        So, to me, that was a sign that actually societally there's an issue going on. Um, yeah. So, th- that's why, you know, I had a lot of attention and I sold a lot of tickets, and still, uh, I didn't make any money. So-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:02:05

        I'd like to see some of that comedy.

    18. FFFrancis Foster1:02:07

        (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

        Some of that comedy where they abide by all those rules?

    20. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02:10

        Right.

    21. FFFrancis Foster1:02:10

        Yeah.

    22. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02:10

        We had to-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

        I'd like to see that dance.

    24. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02:12

        Uh, listen to this, man. We have a comedy night in London where, um, first of all, you have to be triple vaccinated or whatever to get in. Uh, and the comedians have to submit their material in advance.

    25. FFFrancis Foster1:02:22

        Mm-hmm.

    26. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02:23

        To get it proofread. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:25

        (laughs)

    28. KKKonstantin Kisin1:02:25

        Uh, but to get it approved.

    29. FFFrancis Foster1:02:27

        (laughs)

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 4:18:15