Joe Rogan Experience #1851 - Chris Williamson

1. 0:00 – 1:30

   Comedic talent vs. trainable skills (and what makes someone funny)

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Hi, Chris.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:13

      Hi, man. How are you?

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      How are you doing?

   6. CWChris Williamson0:14

      Good, thank you.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Very nice to meet you, man. I've really enjoyed your stuff online.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:17

      Thank you.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      You're a-

   10. CWChris Williamson0:17

       I appreciate that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:18

       ... you're a very good listener. You are one of the best listeners. You're really good at that. Is you're really good at knowing when to talk and when not to talk. That is a skill, and that, that is a, a rare sh- sign of social intelligence. So, I was looking forward to meeting you.

   12. CWChris Williamson0:32

       Thank you. I appreciate that, man.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       My pleasure.

   14. CWChris Williamson0:33

       You've been a big inspiration, so it's nice to hear that.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       Oh, thank you, thank you. Appreciate that too. We were talking about what, like, when someone's funny and when they're funny and not funny and why, and I don't know. (laughs) Like, I've met... 'Cause there's some people that I know that d- weren't funny for a long time and then they became funny. Like comics that were like, they're starting out and they just... Maybe they were kinda okay. May- I think maybe you have, if, if you have a spark, like a little ha-ha, just a spark, you could turn that into a flame. But if you don't have the spark, if there's no, there's nothing there, you're never funny, ever, you're fucked.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:05

       But that's different to training, like we were saying.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       Yes, yes. We were talking-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:08

       You can be the skinniest or fattest guy or girl-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:11

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:11

       ... the right training program and some good macros, you're fixed.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       And you will definitely get stronger. You will definitely get fitter. Espi- particularly like cardiovascular. Cardiovascular, uh, fitness is 100% achievable. All you have to... As long as you don't have like some sort of a problem physically, some sort of an ailment, you could definitely get bette- better cardio.

2. 1:30 – 4:08

   Pain, attention, and obsession: childhood roots of comedians and champions

   1. CWChris Williamson1:30

      Is it true about comics needing a messed up childhood or that's a performance enhancer, that they say the pain that they've gone through in the past is something that helps them to be funny when they grow up?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:40

      There's something there, there's something there. I think it's being ignored. I think when you're ignored as a child, uh, kids figure out a way to get attention and so they act out. And then in acting out, if you act out in a particular way, you get laughs and then you lean towards that. You know?

   3. CWChris Williamson1:58

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      I didn't have a funny family. Like my family's not funny at all (laughs) . Like no one's funny. Like my mom's not funny, my dad's not, my step-dad's not funny. No one's funny. You know? It's just like, just... For me, it was, I guess, it was just, uh, having a weird childhood, moving around a lot, always having to make new friends and so just figured out what was funny about certain things.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:20

      And you ended up managing to get it right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      Yeah, but again, it's fucking lucky, man. Either you're funny or not. Like I, I got into comedy because my friend Steve, who I'm still good friends with to this day, Steve Graham, told me, uh, I should do comedy, 'cause I would make him laugh. And I was like, "Dude, you, you are laughing 'cause you like me. Other people are just gonna think I'm an asshole."

   7. CWChris Williamson2:41

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:41

      Like this is not (laughs) this is not comedy, you know? But-

   9. CWChris Williamson2:44

      I feel like it is a skill. I feel like it's a skill that people can develop. But yeah, if you've got the wrong spark... I mean, everyone's seen that comedian that's trying-

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:50

       ... really, really trying and it's, there's just something not there. And then it's the same, I guess, if you look at absolute elite athletes, the best of the best of the best, it's not just the hard work, it's not just the training, it's not just the skills that they've developed, there's something else there as well.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:04

       Yeah, yeah. But then you get someone who has all the things, and that's how you get a Michael Jordan. You get someone who has physical talent, uh, genetic gifts, m- the mind for it, discipline, consistent work ethic, and then you get greatness. And, but a- also mental illness.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:25

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:25

       You need to be... You know, like, uh, like Michael Jordan, with all due respect, uh, is considered, you know, absolutely one of the greatest, if not the greatest, basketball player of all time, but is kinda mentally ill. He's obsessed with winning to the point where he's an asshole. But that asshole, like, he'll tell you, like, "You just don't wanna win enough." And he's right, he's right. Like, h- he apparently, like you beat him at a game of pool, he won't fucking talk to you for weeks. Like he's just a nut. But that... I've met people like that before. Like they have to win at everything. They have to win at fucking playing fucking Parcheesi. They have to win. They're just winners. They're just like, they're obsessed with that goal of winning.

3. 4:08 – 10:22

   Jealousy as a trap: Tiger Woods and the hidden costs of excellence

   1. CWChris Williamson4:08

      This is why jealousy is such a stupid emotion to have, I think.

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:11

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:11

      Because you never know the price that that person pays for the skills that you really admire about them. So, a good example of this would be Tiger Woods. You know much about his childhood?

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:20

      I know a little bit about the coaching. Jamie's a giant fan. He's a, he's, Jamie's a big golfer.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:25

      Yeah, so Tiger, when he was growing up, you know, he was, I think, at one and a half, two years old, he was already with a golf club and then when did he go on that Saturday night program, Jamie, and he ended up doing some putt on... He was three years old. Three years old when he did that, right? But his father was racially abusing him on golf courses, calling him the N-word, saying that... Yeah, here it is.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:46

      Whoa, that's him at three years old? Which show is this? (rock music plays)

   7. CWChris Williamson4:49

      Jimmy Stewart-

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      Mike Douglas?

   9. CWChris Williamson4:51

      Bob Hope-

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:52

       Bob Hope and Jimmy Stewart? This is crazy. (ball smacks) Oh, my God. (applause) Wow. What a little cutie. Look at him.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:02

       Girl, h- how old is, uh, how old are you, Tiger?

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:06

       Daddy.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:07

       Two.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       Two?

   15. CWChris Williamson5:08

       Two. No fucking way. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:11

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson5:11

       Oh my God. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:13

       Have you read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers?

   19. CWChris Williamson5:15

       Yes.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:16

       Well, that is like a, an amazing example of that. Like having a, a golf club in your hand at two years old, having a father who's maniacal and obsessed-

   21. CWChris Williamson5:27

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:27

       ... and forcing you to do this and then getting all that time in as your body's learning and developing.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:34

       So, the thing about Tiger that was interesting with his father is, there would, he would push him incredibly hard, say, "These white people are never going to accept you on this course." And he had a safe word, the same way that you would do during rough sex, and it was called the E-word. And his dad would say to him, "If it's getting too much, if it's ever too much, just tell me. Just say the E-word and everything will stop." And Tiger never once said it.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       Wow.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:52

       And the E-word was enough.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       Wow. So he would fuck with him so that Tiger would get better and he, he told him, "Look, I love you, but I'm doing this to make you better."

   27. CWChris Williamson6:03

       Yep.

   28. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       "And if it's-"

   29. CWChris Williamson6:03

       And then-

   30. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       "... too much-"
4. 10:22 – 13:44

   US vs. UK culture: celebrating success, scarcity mentality, and the fading ‘American Dream’

   1. CWChris Williamson10:22

      This is one of the big differences I've found between the US and the UK since moving here. So, I've been in Austin for four and a half months or something now. One of the biggest differences is that in the US, as far as I can see, people really want to celebrate you when you're doing well.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:34

      Yes. Yeah. Well, I think collectively they do. There's gotta be a lot of individuals that don't. But collectively, overall, I think there's more of a tendency to celebrate people here. I have some friends from the UK and they have similar, um, feelings. Like, when they came over to America, they're like, "Wow, it's crazy. Like, you're doing well. People congratulate you here." Whereas in the UK they try to keep you down.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:55

      Yeah, very much a scarcity mentality. Tall poppy syndrome is a huge deal in the UK.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:59

      And Australia as well, right?

   5. CWChris Williamson11:00

      Yeah, very much so.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:01

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:01

      As soon as you... I, I, I don't know what it is. I wonder whether it's because population density is so much higher, we're water locked so everything kind of feels a bit more insular. There's less stuff to do because the climate restricts us, it's always cold and dark and wet, which means seasonal affective disorder. There's a bunch of different ways. But culturally, the end result is that people just aren't that supportive. And if you start to deviate when you're young and do something a little bit different, it gets, it gets beaten out of you very quickly, because the British ability for satire is born out of this fact that there's constant piss-taking happening.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:32

      Mm.

   9. CWChris Williamson11:33

      And although satire's fantastic, it's not that great at encouraging people to go and do different things and be adventurous. So, when you roll the clock forwards, what you have is British people have very much got their feet on the ground, probably too much. They probably don't believe that they actually have a capacity that they can go and do things. Now, the converse, I think, in America, might be a little bit true. For all that America's a cis-heteronormative patriarchal superstructure that's misogynistically keeping everyone down-

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:59

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson11:59

       ... when kids grow up, the, the American dream's still very much is a, a real deal, I think, and people are told that they can have blue sky vision and helicopter thinking and be whatever they want to be.... but the problem that you have is when those people grow up and become adults and the world doesn't deliver them the thing that they were promised-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:13

       Mm.

   13. CWChris Williamson12:13

       ... they feel a delta between where they are and where they could be. They go, "Hang on a second. I, I was told that I was gonna get the w- the blue sky and the white picket fence and the blah, blah." And especially in a generation now that is the first one ever that's doing worse than its parents, that's going to cause a lot of people to look around and go, "There's something wrong here. Structurally, there's something wrong."

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:31

       That's interesting. Do you think... When they say that this generation is doing worse than its parents, obviously that is collectively, right? So the... How are they looking at that, and how are they making that distinction that this generation is doing worse? Is it they're doing worse financially? Is it they're doing worse in terms of their ability to buy a home? Like, what-

   15. CWChris Williamson12:48

       I think that'll be two of the major factors, right?

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson12:51

       The fact that it's... Real living wages have stayed static since the mid middle of the 1970s, something like that. And getting onto the property market at the moment is pretty difficult. But more than that as well, a lot of the things that we used to have, the traditions that we used to have for people-

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       (clears throat)

   19. CWChris Williamson13:05

       ... guys and girls, the roles that they used to take, have been outsourced to the state. So if you think about the protector-provider role that men typically would have had, you don't need that so much when you've got a robust legal system and you've got, uh, a government that's going to look after people in case they fall through the cracks, you've got social safety nets and things like that here and there. I think that what happens is people end up feeling listless and existentially lonely. So, not only are they materially less, uh, effective. They're, they're m- unable to get as much money, they're unable to find a house as easily. But then, existentially, the role that they have, something that makes them feel innate and of themselves, that doesn't feel like it's helping either.

5. 13:44 – 25:09

   Safety nets, tipping, and homelessness: healthcare, mental illness, and street-level reality

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:44

      That's interesting. So you think the r- the s- the robust legal system and social safety nets somehow make people listless. I don't think the robust legal system is that robust-

   2. CWChris Williamson13:55

      (clears throat)

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:55

      ... and I don't think the safety systems, the safety nets that are in place, I don't think they're that effective. I, I don't think that people have as much faith in them as maybe you think. Uh, I know in the UK you have a better system in terms of like healthcare. You... People don't have to worry, uh, nearly as much about getting ill, about getting injured. The... I, I'm a big fan of having some kind of social healthcare system, and I think people in this country, uh, s- particularly conservative people, are very (smacks lips) ... They're, they're very concerned with the idea of socialism in any form. But I feel like socialism exists already in many forms that we accept, like the fire department, right? That's clearly like a socialist idea. Like, we all pay into it and it all... It serves everyone. We need it, we all accept it, and we agree to it. Uh, public education. Similar. It's, it sucks. It's pretty shitty and ineffective, depending (stutters) of course upon the neighborhood that you live in. And you know, some neighborhoods have good public systems of education, but... In terms of like, um, (smacks lips) a, a, a s- social safety net, like, there's... It's not that good, like, in America. I don't think a n- I think in t-... The worst-case scenario, it, it's, it's... (sighs) The worst, worst worry is that a social safety net encourages people to not be ambitious-

   4. CWChris Williamson15:21

      Mm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      ... and encourages people to sort... Like, that's what people were concerned with when it came to things like universal basic income, right? They were concerned that it was gonna alleviate people's ambition. And on the best-case scenario side, what I was... I was like looking at it with rose-colored glasses. I was like, "Maybe it'll encourage people to go out and do something they actually want to do for a living." And having their basic needs taken care of, like food and shelter, like, maybe that will give them whatever extra motivation they need to go out and do a thing that they really want to do, whether it's create music or become a painter or whatever the fuck it is.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:58

      Do you think that's the way that people are going to lean?

   7. JRJoe Rogan16:01

      (sighs) I think you have to have that in you, unfortunately.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:03

      Mm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan16:03

      I think there... I know people that are just not fucking ambitious. They have... They're just lazy. And if they didn't have any social safety net, maybe they would develop some discipline. But if there is a social safety net, they don't. And the thing that you were talking about earlier, like this, um... (smacks lips) The, there, there is a problem with generations that, that feel entitled. And they're given this a- There's this attitude, there's this s- sort of overwhelming idea that the government is responsible for you in a certain way, and if you're not doing well, the government has fucked you over. The government... It's your fault. And then people start looking to people that have a lot, like they start looking to billionaires. And they're like, "We need to tax them. We need to tax these billionaires." And, you know, like, there's people out there that are calling for a 90% tax of billionaires, which I always feel like is, at the very least, what they're trying to do... Some of 'em, for sure, are just putting on a show. They're just saying that because they want their constituents to go, "Yeah, they're fighting for us. They're fighting for the working class." Like (inhales) , are they? You know, I'm not sure they are. I think they're bullshitting. And I, I think that capitalism is a game, and whenever you're gonna have a game, (smacks lips) you're gonna have people that are like weekend players that go out there and put a little bit of effort into it and they're kind of okay at basketball, and then you're gonna have Michael Jordan. And you don't get a Michael Jordan without massive amounts of effort and time. And that's the same thing with capitalism. If it's a game, if we're all agreeing, like even if you're a waiter, right? You're waiting on tables, you do a good job, they give you tips. That's tips in America. We get tips for, for waiters when they do a good job.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:40

       Because they don't get paid, that's why.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       Uh-huh.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:42

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:42

       Yeah, it's sneaky.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:43

       I had to adapt-

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson17:44

       ... very, very quickly to that.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       Yeah, it's a sneaky thing. Oh, you're right, 'cause you're not used to giving tips.

   18. CWChris Williamson17:49

       Not a... Well-

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:49

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:49

       ... 10% maybe-ish.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:51

       Right.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:51

       And I did that in a strip club in, uh, Austin, and the waitress turned the thing around and said, "Let's try this again." Slid it back-

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       Whoa.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:58

       ... across the table to me and said

   25. NANarrator18:00

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson18:00

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       At a strip club.

   28. CWChris Williamson18:00

       Yeah (laughs) .

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:01

       Did you feel intimidated?

   30. CWChris Williamson18:02

       Uh...
6. 25:09 – 28:40

   Ideological capture and purity spirals: loyalty signaling over reality

   1. CWChris Williamson25:09

      So, the thing is, an absurd ideological belief is less about the actual facts, and it's basically a show of fealty to your side. It's like you're waving a flag saying-

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:18

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson25:18

      ... "I am a part of this." And the more absurd the belief, the greater the show of fealty, right?

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:23

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:23

      If you're saying, "I will put to one side fact, reason, what my own brain is telling me, everything that reality is putting back to me, and what I'm going to do instead is I'm going to believe the ideology, because that's why."

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:36

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:37

      It's a threat display to your opponents. It's a show of, uh, loyalty to the side that you're on.

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:42

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:42

      But the problem with that is, at the moment, all of these groups are bound together over the mutual distaste of an out-group, not the mutual love of an in-group, which makes them inherently fragile. So, what everybody's doing is they're constantly circling the outside, looking for someone that they can shave off. Who's the next person that is just not quite right that we can get rid of?

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:02

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson26:02

       I don't know whether you saw during Pride Month that there was white gay privilege is now a thing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:07

       (laughs) So, white gay people have to, like, bow down to gay people of color?

   13. CWChris Williamson26:14

       Correct. Yeah, so-

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:15

       Oh.

   15. CWChris Williamson26:15

       ... you have to recognize that if you're gay, but you're also not another oppressed group, that you're kind of not that gay. I- I actually mentioned this to Douglas, and Douglas said that because he's white and conservative and gay, he's basically straight again. He's an honorary straight. His gay card-

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson26:31

       His gay card had been rescinded.

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:33

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson26:34

       (laughs) Uh, so ...

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:36

       Oh, that's amazing.

   21. CWChris Williamson26:37

       Um, but yeah, that's what they're looking for.

   22. JRJoe Rogan26:39

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:39

       They're constantly looking on the outside. Who can we shave off? It's the pu- It's called a purity spiral, right?

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:43

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:43

       Constantly trying. And everybody said that. How long ago were people saying this sort of stuff, about the fact that intersectionality inevitably leads to one person that is the most oppressed in the entire world, and they're the only person that's allowed to speak? And as soon as you see white gay privilege, you think, "Well, that, that's what that is." That is an intersecting, uh, hierarchy of grievance. And if you're only gay, you're basically not anything anymore.

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:07

       That's amazing, isn't it? It really is wild. It's wild. I mean, that's what's happening to women in sports, right? Women in s- ... Women have always been protected, right? W- we've thought of that women being oppressed, whether it's, uh, you know, income inequality, or it's the glass ceiling in the workplace, or it's like ... We've thought like, hey, we've recognized there's an inequality with women, but you know where there's a bigger inequality? Trans women. So, trans women trump women. So, even if trans women have a physical advantage in sports, we still let them compete because they are women, and to recognize them-

   27. CWChris Williamson27:43

       They're ideologically disadvantaged.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:45

       ... yes, it's to open them up to violence. Did you see that woman from Berkeley? Uh, she ... Was it Berkeley? Yeah. She was a law professor, and she was, uh, testifying in front of Congress, and they were asking her questions. And, uh, it was this guy, Josh Hawley, who's like a senator. And, uh, he said, uh, that he thought ... Like, she said, "Do you think that men can get pregnant?" And he said no. And she said, "I just want to recognize that what you're saying is transphobic-"

   29. CWChris Williamson28:11

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:11

       "... and it opens up trans people to violence," which is one of the things that they love to do. That like, it's not whether or not you disagree with something. Like, you can't have it ... If you disagree with the ideology, then you're opening people up to violence. Like ...
7. 28:40 – 33:59

   UK speech policing and ‘non-crime hate incidents’: the “gay swastika” arrest story

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:40

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson28:40

      ... feel like it's a little bit of a LARP for them. It's almost like a little bit of a game. Did you (laughs) see, a guy in the UK was arrested for sharing a swastika that was made up of the LGBT flag this weekend?

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:55

      What?

   4. CWChris Williamson28:55

      So, a guy called Laurence Fox, who runs-

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:57

      Was he trying to, like, repurpose a swastika, like sort of-

   6. CWChris Williamson28:59

      No. So it's not, it's not a very good ... Jimmy, you might be, even be able to get this. So, it doesn't look anything like a swastika. It's like just four things that are all turned round. So, Laurence Fox, the guy that created the Reclaim Party in the UK, ran for the mayor of London, I think, a little while ago, maybe he ran for office. And, um, he, at the start of Pride Month, decided to put together a pride flag that's all the way round and put it as his new profile pic. This guy, Colin O'Brady, who was a decorated military veteran, I think, shared it at some point. The police said to him that he had to accept an 80-pound fine and go to a reeducation ... There it is.

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:34

      That's a swastika?

   8. CWChris Williamson29:35

      Well, that's as close as you can get, apparently.

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:38

      What? (laughs) If you see that, that way it's in the middle, it kind of looks like it. Oh. Oh, I wasn't even s- ... That's crazy. I wasn't even seeing that. Oh my God. How did I not see that?

   10. CWChris Williamson29:50

       Levels.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:50

       Isn't that wild that I didn't see that? That is so funny, because that is really like a little optical illusion thing.

   12. CWChris Williamson29:56

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:56

       Because it is a swastika. That's wild. So, I didn't see that. Well, why didn't they just do it where it's like that way, that way, that way, that way? Like, where both of them are turned, th- these, uh, upper right corner and, uh, lower left corner are turned sideways.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:10

       You'd have to speak to the designer. I'm not sure. So, anyway, he-

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:12

       But how did ... I- I didn't see that. That's what's so crazy. Like, I looked at that, and I'm just looking at the flags as it ... in their entirety, but then I s- ... Now, I clearly see it.That's crazy. Yeah, that's a swastika.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:25

       So, he, he shares this, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:27

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson30:27

       And, I mean, you've also got, you've also got, uh, news articles at the moment saying, uh, "Military veteran jailed or a- a- arrested for gay swastika."

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:36

       Oh my God.

   20. CWChris Williamson30:36

       Which is one of the (laughs) best headlines.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:38

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson30:38

       So anyway, they, the police arrive and they say, uh, or they, they contacted him and they said, um, "80 pound fine, and you have to go to a reeducation course."

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       Oh, a camp.

   24. CWChris Williamson30:47

       So he said-

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson30:49

       ... he said, "No, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do this." And they said, "Okay, well, we're gonna come and arrest you." So, he asked for a time when they were gonna come around, and he got Laurence, the guy that made it and also has a huge social media following online, got him to be there. So Laurence livestreamed it as it was happening, and as the police are there, he's livestreaming this thing, and there's a clip that's 30 seconds from the middle of it which has gone super, super viral online. It's had like three million plays over the weekend. And they ask the police officer why it is... That's the guy there that made it-

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       Right.

   28. CWChris Williamson31:16

       ... "Why am I being arrested?" And he said, "Well, obviously it's because your post has caused somebody social anxiety."

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:22

       Social anxiety?

   30. CWChris Williamson31:23

       Yep.
8. 33:59 – 38:12

   China, Taiwan, and deepfakes: state power, sanctions, and propaganda competence

   1. JRJoe Rogan33:59

      Hmm. That, that, I think, is interesting when you have a country that is established and has been around for, I mean, England's 1,000 years old plus, right? I mean, if you really go back ta- and, and look at, in, in other countries as well, there's many other countries that have these class systems. Like China's probably the best example. China is 4,000-plus years old, which is wild when you really think about how young America is and the way China is completely locked down and wha- the way i- the government has absolute control over their population in t- in terms of, like, what they spend money on, how they spend money, what they get to see on social media, what they get to see on the internet, what they get to say. I mean, even in terms of their most respected population, their billionaires and super successful entrepreneurs, if they speak out against the government, they either get eliminated, they vanish. There's people that are like high profile billionaires that have gone missing. No one knows where they are.

   2. CWChris Williamson34:59

      Jack Ma from Alibaba.

   3. JRJoe Rogan35:01

      Well, he ca- he came back.

   4. CWChris Williamson35:01

      Yeah. And then the tennis lady, she came back as well.

   5. JRJoe Rogan35:04

      Did she come back? She made a statement, but I don't know if she-

   6. CWChris Williamson35:06

      Posted a photo with a wall of fluffy toys behind her, which is just very bizarre. But yeah, that happened, that-

   7. JRJoe Rogan35:13

      But they could have the same photo of you with those walls of fluffy toys behind you and it doesn't mean it's real-

   8. CWChris Williamson35:18

      Ah, interesting, maybe.

   9. JRJoe Rogan35:19

      ... with CGI and c- c-

   10. CWChris Williamson35:21

       Do you think they've deep faked her?

   11. JRJoe Rogan35:23

       They easily could have. I don't know what the latest is, if she's been spotted out and about like living her life.

   12. CWChris Williamson35:27

       I wanna see, I wanna see someone get deep faked for tennis. If you can deep fake a tennis player-

   13. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       (laughs) Well, you can't deep-

   14. CWChris Williamson35:32

       ... cloned Rafael Nadal (laughs) .

   15. JRJoe Rogan35:33

       Yeah, you can't deep fake them actually playing, but you most certainly can deep fake them talking or standing there.

   16. CWChris Williamson35:39

       The Chinese government's Weibo account posted, "Prepare for war," yesterday.

   17. JRJoe Rogan35:44

       Whoa.

   18. CWChris Williamson35:46

       600,000 likes when I, I checked last night. This is, uh, yesterday afternoon or today, Biden's got a call and also Nancy Pelosi's going to-

   19. JRJoe Rogan35:55

       Taiwan.

   20. CWChris Williamson35:57

       ... Taiwan.

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:57

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson35:57

       Uh, so they prepare for war was the official government account on Weibo, which is their like WhatsApp-y social media app.

   23. JRJoe Rogan36:04

       Jesus Christ.

   24. CWChris Williamson36:05

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       That is terrifying to me. You know, that was the concern that a lot of people had about the, uh, response to, uh, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, that the Chinese government was going to be watching how the United States handled that-

   26. CWChris Williamson36:23

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:23

       ... and planning accordingly. And one of the things the Chinese government saw was that we've instituted certain sanctions in place to penalize Russia.... and that the Chinese economy and the, the, the Chinese government was going to look at that and make provisions and make plans a-

   28. CWChris Williamson36:42

       Because that's how-

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:43

       Yes.

   30. CWChris Williamson36:43

       ... we may be penalized in future. So, here's a question for you. Do you think that the US government will have played four-degree chess with the restrictions that they placed on Russia when they invaded the Ukraine, knowing that China would be watching, to keep some other sorts of restrictions and plans in place that they might be able to use and pull out of their pocket if they invade Taiwan?
9. 38:12 – 53:53

   Recession semantics and political theater: redefining words to manage perception

   1. CWChris Williamson38:12

      The US is in a recession at the moment, but it's not allowed to be called a recession.

   2. JRJoe Rogan38:16

      Well, the government's trying to not call it a recession, but it's-

   3. CWChris Williamson38:20

      Wikipedia article got changed. You see this?

   4. JRJoe Rogan38:23

      Really?

   5. CWChris Williamson38:23

      Oh, dude.

   6. JRJoe Rogan38:24

      No.

   7. CWChris Williamson38:25

      So, th-

   8. JRJoe Rogan38:25

      They redefined recession?

   9. CWChris Williamson38:27

      Yep. So, recession used to be two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth.

   10. JRJoe Rogan38:31

       Right. Not anymore?

   11. CWChris Williamson38:34

       Not on Wikipedia.

   12. JRJoe Rogan38:35

       When was this?

   13. CWChris Williamson38:35

       Jamie, get the, get the Wikipedia-y thing up, 'cause this is wild.

   14. NANarrator38:38

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:38

       How long ago did they change it?

   16. CWChris Williamson38:39

       This weekend.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:40

       Oh, God.

   18. CWChris Williamson38:41

       Uh-

   19. NANarrator38:41

       Yeah, I saw it got... Well, I saw it got locked because people were fucking with it, is what I read. But I don't know how much of that was true. But this is the definition when you type in Google, which is the same thing.

   20. CWChris Williamson38:50

       Uh-huh.

   21. JRJoe Rogan38:50

       So, "A period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced, generally identified by a fall in GDP in two successive quarters." So, in Google-

   22. CWChris Williamson39:02

       Yep.

   23. JRJoe Rogan39:02

       ... it's still the same.

   24. CWChris Williamson39:04

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan39:04

       In Wikipedia, let's look at what it, what it says. "Recession is a business cycle contraction where there's a general decline in economic activity. Recessions generally occur when there is a widespread spread drop in spending, eh, or an adverse i- demand shock. This may be triggered by various events, such as a financial crisis, an external trade shock, an adverse supply shock-"

   26. CWChris Williamson39:31

       Oh, it's hard.

   27. JRJoe Rogan39:31

       "... bursting." Okay, here it is. "A recession is defined the National Bureau of Economic Research as a significant decline in economic activity spread across the market, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale/retail sales." So-

   28. NANarrator39:50

       In the UK, it's the-

   29. CWChris Williamson39:51

       In the UK, it's defined as that?

   30. JRJoe Rogan39:53

       In UK, it's defined as a negative economic growth for two consecutive quarters, so we're-
10. 53:53 – 1:09:37

    COVID, autonomy, and pharma distrust—plus ‘psychedelic capitalism’

    1. JRJoe Rogan53:53

       Also, it was problematic because I was right, 'cause I didn't get vaccinated and I got over it very quickly, like-

    2. CWChris Williamson53:58

       It turns out I had it. (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:59

       Yeah, you turned... (laughs) It turns out you had it.

    4. CWChris Williamson54:01

       Did-

    5. JRJoe Rogan54:01

       You didn't even know.

    6. CWChris Williamson54:02

       Yeah, I didn't even know.

    7. JRJoe Rogan54:02

       Yeah, we gave you a antibody test today. Yeah. Well, the new variant, um, for a b- a person like yourself who's fit and healthy is not that much of a problem. Obviously, uh, that's a blanket statement and I'm generalizing, because some people have a harder go of it than others, but that's based on how your immune system is reacting, and there's a lot of variables to that, right? It could be it caught you when you were really run down and not doing well, or maybe you had another issue already, like flurona. You know about flurona?

    8. CWChris Williamson54:33

       What's that?

    9. JRJoe Rogan54:33

       It's people catch COVID and the flu at the same time.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:36

        Oh, shit.

    11. JRJoe Rogan54:36

        Yeah, my wife got that, and it was because she was doing a lot of stuff and traveling and just, like, she got run down, and she caught the 'rona while she had the flu, and it was, you know-

    12. CWChris Williamson54:46

        Nailed.

    13. JRJoe Rogan54:47

        Yeah, she got it. And it wasn't the worst thing. It was, you know, like, a flu.... but it was, uh, enough that I, yeah, could see, like, my wife is very healthy and fit. And for her to get it like that, it indicates that there's, you know, some people... It depends on, like, what is going on with your body at the time. And there's times when your immune system is robust and strong, where you've been working out a lot and drinking a lot of water and taking a lot of vitamins and taking care of your mental health. And your immune system is powerful. And then there's other times where, you know, maybe there's a death in the family, and maybe you lost your job, and maybe you haven't been sleeping, and maybe you're, you have some mental health issues. And then you're worn out and then you catch it and it's really bad. And they'll say, "Well, that's because the disease is really bad." Well, it's really bad for you, given that set of circumstances. And the idea that you just need to get boosted no matter what, like this is, this is nonsense. Like this is not... One-size-fits-all healthcare policies are stupid because they don't address the fact that there's a wide range of different human beings in this country. There's a wide range of reactions. Like children, for example. Chil- y- you know, the idea that all children need to be vaccinated is crazy. My children c- And I'm not talking about other diseases. I think they should be vaccinated for other diseases, but for COVID, it's not a problem for healthy children. They get through it (snaps fingers) like that. I've seen it firsthand with my children. I've seen it firsthand with many of my friends' children. They got COVID and it was almost nothing. You know, my, my one kid had a fucking headache for a day, and that's it. And she never had a cough. She was laughing that she got to stay home from school. You know, I mean, it was nothing.

    14. CWChris Williamson56:32

        But you're not supposed to hold that view.

    15. JRJoe Rogan56:33

        Right.

    16. CWChris Williamson56:33

        You're not supposed to be, uh-

    17. JRJoe Rogan56:35

        Accurate.

    18. CWChris Williamson56:36

        ... pro-gun, vaccine skeptical-

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:40

        I'm s- I'm not vaccine skeptical.

    20. CWChris Williamson56:41

        ... and-

    21. JRJoe Rogan56:41

        I'm propaganda skeptical.

    22. CWChris Williamson56:43

        Propaganda skeptical.

    23. JRJoe Rogan56:44

        And I'm also skeptical of the fact that pharmaceutical companies have extraordinary amounts of money and influence, and we have always thought of them as being deceptive. And there's a lot of evidence that points to the fact that they have misled people on the dangers, misled people on the results of their trials. They have hidden trials that showed negative results and, and highlighted trials that were pur- c- clearly biased. And that's always been the case. We've always known that. There's a shit ton of evidence, whether it's their, uh, w- the, the release of Vioxx. There's many different drugs that they've been fined for in, in the tunes of billions of dollars. So that, it's not that I'm a vaccine skeptic. I'm a skeptic of undue influence of massive corporations, and they have done this forever. We know this. The fucking opioid epidemic is 100% caused by people who lied about whether or not these fucking things are addictive. These are the same people that are pushing all these other pharmaceutical remedies, because they make ungodly amounts of money.

    24. CWChris Williamson57:55

        Did you see Dopesick?

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:56

        I did not see Dopesick-

    26. CWChris Williamson57:57

        Dude-

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:57

        ... but I heard it's amazing.

    28. CWChris Williamson57:58

        ... so good. And, uh, from someone that wasn't familiar with that, we have a very different way of... I- in the UK people are underprescribed rather than overprescribed, right? Because it's subsidized.

    29. JRJoe Rogan58:07

        Right.

    30. CWChris Williamson58:07

        Uh, but yeah, that was terrifying. Another thing that I was looking at was psychedelic capitalism. So, companies at the moment, big pharma, are realizing that down the line, the psychedelic world and drugs may be opened up. They may be legalized therapeutically and perhaps even recreationally.
11. 1:09:37 – 1:53:15

    Psychopathy, narcissism, and behavioral genetics: what’s inherited vs. shaped

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:37

       I learned about the adaptive reason for psychopaths being in society. So you'd think, like, it's about 1%, 0.1% to 1% of people are psychopathic, right? And then you can-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:09:46

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:46

       ... filter that down to the ones that have got sufficient, uh, motivation to actually go and do something that's a bit wild. But I was asking this guy, the researcher, and I was saying, "Look, what is it? How do psychopaths even exist? Like, why do they exist?" I can't understand why they're adaptive. I know that you can be effective over short periods as a psychopath. But over long periods of time, it doesn't end up being very good for society and I thought it would have been bred out. And he said, "Yeah, you're right, except for the fact that over the entire size of a population, a few psychopaths actually make sense." If you're a raiding party, a Viking raiding party-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:19

       Mm, yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:19

       ... that needs to go over and fuck everybody up in Lindisfarne-

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:22

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:22

       ... which is near to where I lived in the UK, you want some psychopaths. You don't want them to come back with PTSD. You want them to go over there, burn everything down, rape the women, pillage, come back with gold and supplies and grain and whatever else they take-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:34

       Mm, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:10:34

       ... and not care about it. You actually... On an individual level, psychopathy might not be fantastic for the people around them, but in a tribe, it's actually quite adaptive and quite useful. It's like a weapon, like a very specific sort of weapon that you can use.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:10:47

        Mm, yeah. Break glass in case of war.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:49

        Yes, yes.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:10:50

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:10:50

        In case of raiding party.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:10:51

        It makes sense that it would be sort of a, a, a legacy thing that e- exists in the human population. That we've had it because it was very beneficial thousands of years ago, and it still exists.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:04

        But the difference is, difference is now that you're not going to get pulled up as much for being a psychopath because you can move from town to town. If it was a Dunbar number of 100 or 150 or something in your tribe previously, what are you gonna do? Go to the next tribe?

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:11:17

        Right.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:17

        Maybe, maybe, maybe that would have happened. I don't know. Perhaps you could move from one tribe to another tribe, but it seems pretty unlikely. You'd probably just get killed. But if you fuck over people one too many times, this is the reason that socially we're so careful of status. It's one of the reasons why we are, uh, concerned about public speaking, because one of the few times you would have done that is when your status would have been in, um, high focus and people might have said, "If this goes badly, they're going to drop down," or maybe you were defending yourself against the tribe of some kind.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:43

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:11:45

        If you're not able to move on, that would make psychopathy more difficult to manage and, uh, more likely to be punished, I think. But now, you can just go from town to town to town. Within a city.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:11:56

        Mm, yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:56

        You can go from suburb to suburb, change your name, not use your social media profile anymore. I think that psychopathy, people that are actively, uh, being psychopaths, are significantly easier now to hide in amongst society.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:12:09

        Mm, that makes sense. It also makes sense that psychopathy would have been more common because it would have been more useful when you're constantly in tribal war.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:12:17

        Correct.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:12:17

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:12:18

        But it depends on how you deploy it. So, it's interesting. Psychopathy, to be a clinically diagnosed psychopath, you actually have to have committed criminal acts.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:12:24

        Oh.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:12:24

        So, you can't be, because of the way that the, the current, um, psychopathic checklist, it's called, I think you have to be 28 out of 40 in the UK or 30 out of 40 in the US. The US has got a higher threshold for psychopaths, which is kind of funny.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:12:36

        Mm.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:36

        And, um, there was this guy, this researcher who was researching psychopaths. And what you see is a particular area of the brain is downregulated, right? So, you don't see as much activity when you see stuff like death or images that would cause you to have empathy. So, he decides that he's going to study a bunch of psychopaths, many of whom I think are actually in prison, because you have to have committed a criminal act, and then he needs a control group. So, the control group is going to be-You're a professor, you've got students, use the students. And he was running out of people to put in the control group. I mean, he even used himself as one of the people. So anyways, running through this control group and having a look at all of the people that are in it, and he notices this person's got no activation when they're going through. And he goes, "Holy shit. This is the brain of a psychopath in the control group. I found a psychopath in here. I need to go and contact them." It turned out to be him.

Episode duration: 3:25:23