Joe Rogan Experience #1854 - Rick Strassman

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Here we go. Here we go. What's up, Rick? How are you?

Rick Strassman 0:14 Uh, good. It's great seeing you.

Joe Rogan 0:16 It's great seeing you too. It's been a long time.

Rick Strassman 0:18 Well, you know, we str-

Joe Rogan 0:20 Try to keep this, uh, like, uh, fist from your face. That's probably the-

Rick Strassman 0:23 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 0:23 ... best way to do it. Yeah.

Rick Strassman 0:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 There we go.

Rick Strassman 0:26 Yeah. I think we first met, uh ... Some random person, uh, sent me an email, probably 2005, 2006.

Joe Rogan 0:34 Wow.

Rick Strassman 0:34 And he said, "Oh, you know, Joe Rogan is, uh, talking about your book." And I (laughs) hadn't heard of you.

Joe Rogan 0:41 This is before I did a podcast.

Rick Strassman 0:43 I think it was before the podcast time.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 0:45 I think you were still doing standup.

Joe Rogan 0:46 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 0:48 Yeah. And he gave me your number, I think, and I called you, and you were at the airport.

Joe Rogan 0:52 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 0:53 And you said, "Hey, man, I'm reading your book. I love it."

Joe Rogan 0:56 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 0:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:57 Yeah. The book was fascinating because your book was ... You need to adjust? Cameras? Good? Your book was fascinating to me because it was, um ... I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the first time that they ever, that the FDA ever allowed real studies to be done on Schedule I drugs.

Rick Strassman 1:19 It was the first new American study in 20 years.

Joe Rogan 1:23 On psychedelics?

Rick Strassman 1:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:25 On any human psychedelic research.

Joe Rogan 1:28 And how did you ... First of all, why did you want to do it, and how did you get the permission to do it?

Rick Strassman 1:36 Well, um, I wanted to do it because, uh, of my interest in chemistry and my interest in altered states, um, you know, my own altered states. Like, the first time I smoked marijuana, I was 18 years old, and it was a fully psychedelic experience. There were purple clouds coming out of the speakers. I was flying over this, you know, the college, you know, town I was living in at the time. And my friend was too. It was a shared hallucination on very strong hash.

Joe Rogan 2:08 So you felt like you were out of body?

Rick Strassman 2:10 Uh, no. I was, uh ... We were on a carpet.

Joe Rogan 2:15 And you felt like you could, you were ... So you both saw, like-

Rick Strassman 2:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19 ... a city below you?

Rick Strassman 2:19 Yeah. The floor disappeared.

Joe Rogan 2:21 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 2:23 Yeah. It was the first time I smoked marijuana.

Joe Rogan 2:25 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 2:25 And I thought, "Wow. This is interesting."

Joe Rogan 2:27 And now hash is ... The way they create hash is they take the w- what is it called? The crystals off of THC? Is that how they do it?

Rick Strassman 2:34 Uh, they shake out the resin, uh, from the flower.

Joe Rogan 2:39 Just sh- just shake it? That's how they do it?

Rick Strassman 2:42 W- um, well, there's different ways to do it. Like, in the old country, y- you get really sweaty, and you just agitate a lot of pot. And it ... And, uh, the resin accumulates on your skin, and you scrape it off.

Joe Rogan 2:58 Really? And that's how they make hash?

Rick Strassman 3:00 Well, you know, in-

Joe Rogan 3:01 That's so funky. You're getting someone's funk along with the hash. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 3:05 Yeah, yeah. That's called pre-industrial hash.

Joe Rogan 3:07 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 3:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:08 I was watching, uh, or was looking at something online the other day, where, um, they were talking about repurpose ... It was in Morocco. They were rep- it was Steve D'Angelo. He was talking about they were, how they were repurposing, uh, machines in Morocco to make hash. About how they've been doing it this way and making hash in this part of the world for, you know, who knows how many years.

Rick Strassman 3:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Is this it here?

Rick Strassman 3:37 I wonder what the machines are.

Joe Rogan 3:39 Yeah. This is Steve D'Angelo. (clears throat) Steve D'Angelo's a hemp activist, cannabis activist. So they're ... It looks some kind of a press or something like that. I don't know what that thing is.

Rick Strassman 3:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:50 But-

Rick Strassman 3:51 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 3:51 I think it's, like, it has something to do with, uh, automobiles. Here. He's going to say it right here.

Narrator 3:57 (instrumental music plays) Things that can't break down, things that don't need electricity, uh, things that can be improvised, and it ... Just so much cleverness, uh, has been shown here today, so much ingenuity in working with what you have. I mean, this press is a great example of it. I mean, take a look here. It's just basically an automobile jack that's been put into a frame, you know? Had a couple of springs put on there, and then, you know, these iron casing boxes made. And it works. It works really well. And this is the way that the hash that's smoked by most people around the world, the largest quantity of cannabis that's made anywhere is made, still, by this legacy method. And the great thing about it is, this could really be done anywhere. All right? I think about folks in Mexico or Colombia who could take this method and repurpose it and adapt it and be making quite a very nice high-quality hash just about anywhere.

Joe Rogan 4:58 That's a hash salesman if I've ever seen one.

Rick Strassman 5:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:01 (laughs) That dude's pushing hard. He's like, "Let's ... Everybody get in on this."

Rick Strassman 5:05 Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:05 "Come on, make some hash."

Rick Strassman 5:06 I'd like to buy one.

Joe Rogan 5:07 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 5:07 Yeah. Well, I, I wonder if, if that makes hash or hash oil, if it's just being compressed like that, squeezing things out.

Joe Rogan 5:14 Well, it looked like he was having bricks of hash, right?

Rick Strassman 5:16 Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Joe Rogan 5:17 So I think he's using it in that sort of, that little frame, that little case.

Rick Strassman 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:22 And then they're packing it in there with that car jack, which is pretty crazy.

Rick Strassman 5:26 Yeah. Clever.

Joe Rogan 5:27 The- So the difference between hash and regular marijuana smoking is, in general, what? Is it just that it's much stronger?

Rick Strassman 5:35 It's much stronger.

Joe Rogan 5:36 So that kind of hallucination, that's super rare with regular marijuana, right? But with hash ...

Rick Strassman 5:43 It, it, it can happen.

Joe Rogan 5:45 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 5:45 Yeah. Um, well, I started college as a chemistry major. Um, as a kid, I made fireworks and bombs, and, uh, started, you know, uh, you know, college as a chemistry major. I wanted to be ... I w- I wanted to become a magnate in making fireworks, a fireworks magnate.... um, but everybody discouraged me. They said-

Joe Rogan 6:05 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 6:05 ... "You know, you're a smart guy, you should be a doctor."

Joe Rogan 6:08 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 6:08 And so... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:09 That's how they tricked you into it?

Rick Strassman 6:11 Well, I got the last laugh, right? Because I'm, you know, giving people psychedelics and they have inner fireworks now.

Joe Rogan 6:18 Right. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 6:18 So, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:20 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 6:20 Well... Well, so after that experience smoking hash, and, you know, my chemistry mind got piqued. I thought, you know, "Like a half hour ago, I was totally normal, and right now, I'm just having the weirdest experience of my life and I wonder how that works chemically."

Joe Rogan 6:35 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 6:36 So I figured there must be some chemical changes in the brain, and I was interested in learning what those might be.

Joe Rogan 6:44 So what year was this?

Rick Strassman 6:45 Uh, '70... '70.

Joe Rogan 6:48 So, okay, so this is like right around the time where everything got made illegal. Right? That was the big Schedule 1 act, wasn't that in 1970?

Rick Strassman 6:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:56 When they made a lot of the psychedelics illegal?

Rick Strassman 6:58 The Controlled Substances Act of 1970. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:01 So it was right at that year-

Rick Strassman 7:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:03 ... when you were just getting involved. You're like, "Damn it, they took the rug out from under me."

Rick Strassman 7:06 It didn't make any difference. Uh, yeah, the school I went to had a lot of psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 7:11 Really?

Rick Strassman 7:11 And I... Yeah, and I went crazy for about two years.

Joe Rogan 7:14 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 7:15 And, uh, then figured, you know, "I think I've had enough. I need to transfer." So I transferred schools, actually.

Joe Rogan 7:21 I've known more than one person that has lost their marbles from, from doing too many psychedelics.

Rick Strassman 7:28 I started getting unraveled.

Joe Rogan 7:30 It's not-

Rick Strassman 7:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:31 ... uncommon.

Rick Strassman 7:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:32 Right? Don't w- Do you know people that have kind of, like, blown fuse?

Rick Strassman 7:36 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:37 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 7:37 Well, I get the occasional email from people who have really gone around the bend smoking too much DMT.

Joe Rogan 7:45 There's people, I think, that have a tendency towards a type of, uh, paranoid schizophrenia, that maybe they kind of have it under control or maybe it's mild. You know, they just have some weird paranoias about certain things. I've seen a few people do too many psychedelics and then (snaps fingers) now they're in fantasy land.

Rick Strassman 8:06 Yeah. I kind of wonder about the risk of increased accessibility.

Joe Rogan 8:10 I do.

Rick Strassman 8:11 Yeah. Because y- you know, you could prepare, you can screen, and still people have adverse effects. And in, in, in the wild, in the field, I think we're just gonna have a revisiting of the problems in the '60s with all of those hospitalizations and things.

Joe Rogan 8:29 I, I don't think there's any doubt. The real question is w- how many of those people were on that path already? Like, what is that whole process of someone becoming mentally ill? Because I've seen it happen, but I'm, I'm not exactly sure what's causing it, wh- what makes people... I've seen people go down, and they just, they just become different people.

Rick Strassman 8:52 Well, I think it's a case of people being vulnerable. You know, they've got a susceptibility, uh-

Joe Rogan 8:58 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 8:58 ... of... In their genes. And they just may also be susceptible because of their lives. They may be doing other drugs, you know, drinking a lot, in really unstable relationships.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 9:09 Or they... Uh, you know, and they also, you know, might have a, you know, tendency genetically. Uh, you know, let's say one of their parents was bipolar or schizophrenic. You know, so it's a major trauma. I mean, it's a psychological, you know, trauma to have a huge trip, right?

Joe Rogan 9:25 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 9:25 You know, good trauma, bad trauma, but it's really a shift. And, uh, if you're not equipped, uh, I think it could, yeah, it could, uh, kind of fracture, uh, a thin veneer of normality.

Joe Rogan 9:37 Yeah, it's almost like they're interfacing at the wrong p- They're not, like, quite getting... L- Like, there's a reality port and then there's, like, a neighboring port where they're getting... It's like they can pay their taxes, they can drive their cars, they can answer emails, but they think that there's some crazy mind control experiment at the head of... You know? It's just one of those weird ones where people just, like, the- just start believing that the w- whole world's out to get them, and the government's trying to track them down, and y- y- there's a chip in my brain. L- Like, accelerates.

Rick Strassman 10:12 R- Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's extreme.

Joe Rogan 10:13 The chip is the weird one. I've heard multiple people tell me they have a chip in their brain.

Rick Strassman 10:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:20 Or at least say it to people, like that, "I'm communicating to them through a chip in their brain."

Rick Strassman 10:25 Mm-hmm. Well, you know, schizophrenics are like that.

Joe Rogan 10:28 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 10:29 It's, uh, you know, paranoid schizophrenics. Yeah, you know, back in the day, it was, uh, you know, radio waves or x-rays that were-

Joe Rogan 10:39 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 10:39 ... y- you know, beaming down from space and affecting people's minds. Uh, that was the experience-

Joe Rogan 10:44 That was the paranoid schizophrenic's perspective?

Rick Strassman 10:47 It, it... Yeah. It, it was, you know, their explanation, uh, of their unusual experiences. You know, the kinds of stories I've heard with people doing too much DMT is a kind of mania. Uh, they're really grandiose. They think that they've got all the answers.

Joe Rogan 11:03 Ooh.

Rick Strassman 11:03 And n- nobody's listening to them.

Joe Rogan 11:06 Ooh.

Rick Strassman 11:06 And it makes them mad, and they end up in prison-

Joe Rogan 11:09 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 11:09 ... or in psychiatric hospitals.

Joe Rogan 11:11 (sighs) I just... I'm always fascinated with how other human beings' brains work. I'm p- Mine as well, right? I'm, um, fascinated by the brain, about how it's so different after exercise. It's so different after rest. It's so different when, you know, you meditate or you d- you do something like yoga, some mindfulness kind of practice. It's a diff- It's like what, what are most people experiencing? And then, what does it feel like to be mentally ill? Like, what is that person experiencing? Like, what, what weird shift in the chemical balance of the mind is causing that? And, you know, how much of it is genetic and how much of it is life experience and trauma?It's just the, the way that people think and look about things, and look at things, has always been fascinating to me, because I got to assume that everyone's dealing with different hardware or wetware, whatever you would call the brain. Like, they work different. They don't work the same.

Rick Strassman 12:08 (laughs) Uh, right. Well, I mean, it depends on the, on the mental illness. You know, the disorder. Um, y- well, you know, one of the reasons I became a psychiatrist, you know, besides my interest in studying psychedelics, was because I was really interested in the mind. Uh, you know, schizophrenic patients were just amazing.

Joe Rogan 12:31 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 12:31 You know, because other than their crazy ideas and experiences, they're just normal people.

Joe Rogan 12:36 Right.

Rick Strassman 12:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:37 Which is wild. And, and there's gotta be, uh, levels to it, right? Are there? Like, like, there's like mild, where someone just kind of like a touch schizophrenic, and there's someone who's like full-blown, you know, "The aliens are hiding in my walls and they're out to get me."?

Rick Strassman 12:52 Well, it depends on the kind of schizophrenia. Uh, there's what's called chronic undifferentiated, which is kind of the burned-out types that just don't move, don't talk.

Joe Rogan 13:03 They just veg?

Rick Strassman 13:04 They just veg. And there are the paranoid schizophrenics who are a lot more active, and they're hallucinating-

Joe Rogan 13:10 Hm.

Rick Strassman 13:11 ... and they're in, and they're in your face.

Joe Rogan 13:14 (exhales)

Rick Strassman 13:14 Um, y- yeah, you know, I really found it easy and fun to talk to psychotic patients.

Joe Rogan 13:20 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 13:20 I think that was, you know, one of the things that kind of was s- part of the mix of studying psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 13:26 Why was it easy?

Rick Strassman 13:28 Well, I think in my own psychedelic experiences, I, I, I might have gone crazy for an hour or two.

Joe Rogan 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 13:35 Uh, one, one time in particular, I had to be, you know, talked back down. You know, so I could empathize.

Joe Rogan 13:41 You've heard, uh, Dennis McKenna's story-

Rick Strassman 13:44 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 13:44 ... about being, uh, with Terrence?

Rick Strassman 13:46 Mm-hmm, the experiment at Lancho Huerra.

Joe Rogan 13:48 Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Rick Strassman 13:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:50 If you, can you explain what happened? Because they, they ate too many mushrooms.

Rick Strassman 13:54 Hm, apparently.

Joe Rogan 13:55 Yeah. Can you explain, like, pharmacologically w- what ... or psychologically, what could have happened?

Rick Strassman 14:04 Uh, well, I mean, it, it depends on your model, right?

Joe Rogan 14:07 Please tell people what happened. Like, tell people the story.

Rick Strassman 14:10 Yeah, I don't know the story-

Joe Rogan 14:11 You don't know it exactly?

Rick Strassman 14:12 ... that, that well.

Joe Rogan 14:12 What I believe is they found a bunch of fresh mushrooms in the Amazon and they just started chowing and they went crazy. And I think he was gone for about two weeks.

Rick Strassman 14:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:22 Might have been longer than that. Might be two months. Do you remember, Jamie?

Narrator 14:25 I ... I, I don't know. I'll check with see what, uh ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:28 'Cause he was on, he told the story on the podcast.

Rick Strassman 14:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:31 He, he went into detail about, like, what it was like.

Rick Strassman 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:34 The way he was processing real- reality.

Rick Strassman 14:36 It was a long stretch.

Joe Rogan 14:38 It was a long time-

Rick Strassman 14:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:39 ... where he was gone.

Rick Strassman 14:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:40 It wasn't, like, two hours, huh? (laughs)

Rick Strassman 14:43 No. No, they had to, well, uh, you know, to the extent that he could communicate, he wanted people to leave him alone.

Joe Rogan 14:49 What happens ... What is going on when, when that h- like, what could cause you, is there something that can be psychoactive for two whole weeks? That's what's confusing to me. Like, what is going on with this substance? It must be gone from your body after two weeks.

Rick Strassman 15:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:05 But somehow or another, you're still feeling the effects of it. Like, what happened? And what does that indicate about like states of mind and how pliable they are?

Rick Strassman 15:14 Well, I mean, the, the, I guess the way I would look at it, which might not be the way everybody would, but, um, I think what may have taken place is that because of all of the psilocybin that he took, he opened a portal-

Joe Rogan 15:28 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 15:30 ... into things out there, and it just didn't close. Uh, you know, so the, uh, psilocybin was the trigger, you know, but after the, the, you know, portal was open, uh, it was open.

Joe Rogan 15:42 I'm glad you said it that way, 'cause I say it that way too, and I know it sounds ridiculous. It's particularly to people-

Rick Strassman 15:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:48 ... that don't do psychedelics, opening a portal. But I've, I've, I've thought about that a lot. I've thought about that a lot about the DMT experience, because it seems so insane and so impossible that I just can't believe that this isn't just another place. It seems like it's not just a chemical reaction in my mind. It seems like I'm going to another place.

Rick Strassman 16:10 Uh, that's how it feels.

Joe Rogan 16:12 That's how it feels. But what does that mean by when I say, "That's how it feels," because I don't have any understanding of what ex- I'm experiencing it, what I'm, what I'm experiencing, rather. So I must put it in some sort of context where it makes sense to me as a person who lives on Earth, you know, sitting here right now in 2022. You know, there's all those variables that you l- you, everything, when you look at the world, goes through all the, the filter of, of your own personal reality. The thing about a psyc- a full-blown psychedelic experience, like the DMT experience, is it doesn't seem like any of that applies anymore. You go over there and it's like you're gone. There's no ... So I, I was wondering about myself, like, maybe I'm trying to put it into perspective like it's another place, because places make sense to me. And what doesn't make sense to me is n- just full nothingness, i- chaos, wild imagery, and geometry, and things that move to music. And it's like almost like it's so hard for me to wrap my head around that I convince myself it's another dimension, but it's not.

Rick Strassman 17:15 Well, it could be. I mean, it could be another dimension. And-

Joe Rogan 17:19 It could be. Yeah.

Rick Strassman 17:20 Yeah, well, I, I think you need to design experiments, you know, to, uh, to test if it is another dimension or not.

Joe Rogan 17:26 How could you do that?

Rick Strassman 17:28 Um, well, I think, uh ... Well, if you, you know, consider, you know, the location of the DMT world to be outside of us-

Joe Rogan 17:39 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 17:40 ... uh, in objective reality, you'd need to, you know, call upon, you know, physics, advanced, uh, you know, physics, dark matter, dark energy, parallel universes. So I think if you could, you know, get into those spaces, uh, with machines, let's say imaging machines or cameras-

Joe Rogan 17:59 How would you do that?

Rick Strassman 18:00 Pfft. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 18:00 (laughs) Could you get a computer high? (laughs)

Rick Strassman 18:03 (laughs) It's one of those ideas I've had, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:06 Well, have you seen some of the new, um ... There, there was, uh, some new article that was written about virtual reality-... being able to, um, give people transcendent experiences, that it's similar to the effects achieved on psychedelics.

Rick Strassman 18:23 Right. That's interesting, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 18:24 McKenah talked about that a long time ago. He said he thinks that one day they'll get to a point where they can create something visually and it'll bring you into that place, that they'll be able to recreate it with sufficient technology. Here's... "VR is as good as psych- at (clears throat) as psychedelics at helping people reach transcendence. On key metrics, a VR experience elicited a response indistinguishable from subject who took medium doses of LSD or magic mushrooms." That's wild.

Rick Strassman 18:54 Yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 18:55 If they got... If they just keep getting better at it, that's... Like, if you can get someone who's been there and knows what it looks like-

Rick Strassman 19:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:02 ... and then is a good artist who can recreate it. Because I've seen some DMT art before that's so close. It's like, "Oh, wow, that's so close."

Rick Strassman 19:12 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 19:12 You know? It seems like it... Of, of course, Alex Grey. Like, Alex Grey stuff is like... Some of it is so tryptamine-like, you know?

Rick Strassman 19:22 Um, well, it's important to note that they talk about medium doses of LSD or psilocybin.

Joe Rogan 19:28 Right. So you get a good feeling, but you're not hallucinating.

Rick Strassman 19:31 Yeah. You may not really be fully tripping out.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Well, then what they're doing, what, what kind of, uh, VR experience it would be like? What is the images they're showing you? What is the sound they're playing for you that's allowing you to get to these states?

Narrator 19:44 (clears throat) The guy that made this one did it after he had a, a near-death experience.

Joe Rogan 19:49 Wow.

Narrator 19:50 Uh, here, right here. He says he fell off there. Read that.

Joe Rogan 19:53 Okay. He says, uh, "'I knew that the intensity of the light was related to the extent to which I inhabited my body,' he recalls. Yet watching it dim didn't frighten him from his new vantage point." Glo- Glowwa- Glowaki? Glowaki? Glowaki could see that the light wasn't disappearing, it was transforming, leaking out of his body into the environment around him. This realization, which he took to signify that his awareness could outlast and transcend his physical form, block- bought- brought Glowaki- Glowaki a sublime sense of peace. So, he approached what he thought was death with curiosity, what might come next. So, since his accident, an artist and computational molecular physicist, his work to recapture that transcendence." Okay. So, he had some wild near-death experience, and he's trying to recreate that with VR. So, that's interesting because that's not even a, um... He's not even talking about a drug experience.

Rick Strassman 20:53 Um, so he could be. Um-

Joe Rogan 20:55 Right.

Rick Strassman 20:55 Yeah. You know, we've been studying, or there's a group at University of Michigan that's been looking at endogenous DMT-

Joe Rogan 21:02 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 21:02 ... that's, that's made in the mammalian brain, and it increases during death, and especially it increases in the visual part of the brain, you know? So it could be-

Joe Rogan 21:10 So, they know that for a fact now?

Rick Strassman 21:11 Yeah, they know that for a fact. It's a 2019 study.

Joe Rogan 21:14 When I first met you, there wasn't nearly as much data. And I remember you were talking about how much anecdotal data that points to the idea of the pineal gland being the source of DMT, but there wasn't-

Rick Strassman 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:26 ... a mammal model.

Rick Strassman 21:28 Yeah. Yeah. The pineal DMT story, it sounds pretty obscure, but it's pretty controversial. I mean, there are, uh, you know, some data supporting the view that the pineal makes DMT and other data don't. Um, I think you and I met at Starbucks on Ventura-

Joe Rogan 21:47 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 21:48 ... in, I think 2009. I was out there for my high school reunion, and, um, we met at Starbucks on Ventura. I think it was in Encino. And, uh, yeah, we were talking about DMT.

Joe Rogan 22:01 Do you think... Yeah, I remember that. Do you think that DMT is produced in, like, all over the body? Like, they've found it in the lungs. They've found it in the liver, right? Do you think it's just something that the body produces everywhere?

Rick Strassman 22:14 Um, you know, when they first discovered DMT in mammals, uh, peop- people were focusing on the lung. And, uh, you know, they were also interested in DMT being involved in psychosis. And-

Joe Rogan 22:28 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 22:28 ... you know, there is a, you know, joke or... I don't know if you call it a joke, but an idea that schizophrenia was a lung disease, uh, because you were producing, you know, too much DMT. And they were doing studies to inhibit DMT in schizophrenics or increase it or...

Joe Rogan 22:43 Oh, wow. That makes sense.

Rick Strassman 22:45 Yeah, it does make sense. Uh-

Joe Rogan 22:47 That completely makes sense.

Rick Strassman 22:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:49 That could be what's wrong with them.

Rick Strassman 22:51 It could be. And if you could block DMT naturally or with a vaccine or something, you might have a-

Joe Rogan 22:56 Wow. That completely makes sense because pe- I've seen people on it that, like, fight it and panic, and imagine if that was like a constant state-

Rick Strassman 23:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:06 ... you were involved, that would look totally similar to someone being schizophrenic.

Rick Strassman 23:12 If, if, if it was a constant state, you'd have to come up with some ideas about what was going on. And I think that possibly would then, you know, lead to the delusions, the crazy ideas about what's going on-

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah, that makes sense.

Rick Strassman 23:24 ... to explain.

Joe Rogan 23:25 Wow.

Rick Strassman 23:26 Well, so we found, you know, DMT in the rodent pineal in 2013, the group at the University of Michigan. You know, so it, it, uh, proved or established the validity of that idea that the pineal makes DMT. But this study in 2019 that I was mentioning where DMT goes up after death in the visual cortex, you know, they looked again for pineal DMT, and they couldn't find any. And what they believe is that the original paper described the DMT in the brain which was snagged on the way in and out of-

Joe Rogan 24:00 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 24:01 ... the pineal gland. You know, but even more interesting, I think, than the pineal making DMT is the brain makes DMT in quite high levels, comparable to even serotonin.

Joe Rogan 24:11 Wow.

Rick Strassman 24:12 And it could be there's a DMT neurotransmitter system in the brain, just like a serotonin neurotransmitter system.

Joe Rogan 24:19 What is the, the function of the pineal gland?

Rick Strassman 24:23 Well, it helps regulate circadian rhythms a- and light sensitivity. Um, it helps entrain rhythms. It, it helps keep everything in sync in the body, temperature, uh, urinary function, blood cell formation, all of those things.

Joe Rogan 24:43 Why do you think, uh, ancient cultures were so fascinated by it? Like, why did they have this... Why did they attribute this sort of, uh, s- almost like godlike significance to it, right?

Rick Strassman 24:58 Yeah, yeah. I mean, there still, there still is a certain pineal kind of reverence out there. If you look at Amazon and enter pineal, there's all kinds of esoteric things that are still being published on the pineal gland.

Joe Rogan 25:10 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 25:11 Um, well, it's an unpaired organ. It's the only unpaired organ in the brain. Uh, everything else is paired. You have a left and right hemisphere. Uh, but there's just one pineal in the, uh, in the middle of your brain. It's, it's, it's location, I think, has attri- or has contributed, you know, to the reverence. Uh, it's just under the fontanelle, and certain kinds of spiritual experiences are also felt there. And so, it was the, you know, the, uh, you know, physical corresponding position of the subjective experience, so people thought it must be occurring in the pineal gland.

Joe Rogan 25:50 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 25:51 You know, I've a friend who's, uh, really into Aztec, you know, savagery, you know, history, and, uh, he told me... This is kind of grim, but, uh, he told me that the Aztecs used to burn people when they were alive to really, like, freak them out, and then take their brains out and eat their brains because of all of the hormones and all of the-

Joe Rogan 26:12 (sighs)

Rick Strassman 26:13 ... things that were going on.

Joe Rogan 26:15 Whoa. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 26:16 You know, so their pineal gland-

Joe Rogan 26:17 That is heavy.

Rick Strassman 26:18 That's heavy, I know.

Joe Rogan 26:19 That is so-

Rick Strassman 26:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:20 ... heavy.

Rick Strassman 26:20 Yeah. You know, but they found it gave them, you know, whatever superhuman strength or r- religious e- ecstasy.

Joe Rogan 26:28 Isn't it fascinating that that also will kill you? Like, that's, that's where people get prion diseases. They get it from eating brain and spinal tissue, right?

Rick Strassman 26:37 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 26:39 Like, cannibals, when they get that Jakob Creutzfeld-

Rick Strassman 26:43 Jakob Creutzfeld, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:44 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 26:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:44 Thank you for pronouncing that better. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 26:46 Well, when I was a medical student, you know, we were always on the hunt for Jakob Creutzfeld patients because, you know, they were rare and very interesting.

Joe Rogan 26:54 How many did you discover?

Rick Strassman 26:56 Maybe just two or three.

Joe Rogan 26:58 And how did they come into contact with it?

Rick Strassman 27:00 How did they come into contact with it? Uh, I think, you know, they were, uh, like, from Africa. Y-

Joe Rogan 27:07 And they ate maybe some bushmeat or something, or some primate meat?

Rick Strassman 27:11 Sh- sh- sheep meat or monkey meat. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:14 Oh, sheep meat? You can get it from sheep meat as well?

Rick Strassman 27:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:17 I thought it was a... There was a thing that would, with-

Rick Strassman 27:21 It was-

Joe Rogan 27:21 ... with cannibals, and there was a thing with, uh, mad cow disease, which is another one. It's another very similar version of it because the cows were eating the cows, right?

Rick Strassman 27:30 Right. It's, it's a, it's, uh, you know, prion disease.

Joe Rogan 27:33 Right.

Rick Strassman 27:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:34 So here it is, "Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and sheep brain. Places and origin, seven out of eight patients with CJD coincide with the distribution of sheep-rearing in Central and South Italy." Oh, okay. That actually makes sense because my uncle, uh, Vinnie, Vinnie D'Gerlando, is about as Italian as you get-

Rick Strassman 27:57 That's your uncle?

Joe Rogan 27:58 Yes. My uncle Vinnie, who's a great guy-

Rick Strassman 28:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:00 ... um, used to cook, uh, lamb's brains. They would... That was, like, a, a traditional, uh, Italian meal that you would cook. Like, when we'd get together and have, like, family gatherings, he had m- on more than one occasion cooked lamb's brains, 'cause I remember having it as a child.

Rick Strassman 28:18 Yeah, that's interesting. Well, th- uh, well, th- uh... (clears throat) W- well, so the medical school that I went to is in the Bronx and, you know, there were, um, a lot of immigrants in the Bronx.

Joe Rogan 28:29 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 28:30 There were quite a few Italians, and, uh, l- you know, lots of people from the Caribbean and from Africa.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Yep.

Rick Strassman 28:37 And, you know, so I think-

Joe Rogan 28:38 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 28:38 ... it was, uh, it, it was some African patients.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Well, I think, um, it's probably real common over there if it's common in Italy.

Rick Strassman 28:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:45 You know, 'cause, uh, eating lamb's brains is, uh, normal fo-... I mean, my parents, they, they, I mean, they didn't eat, like, a lot of exotic food, but that was, like, a normal thing.

Rick Strassman 28:54 Yeah. Yeah, my family never ate brains.

Joe Rogan 28:58 I've had, uh, sweetbreads before, which is the thalamus gland, right?

Rick Strassman 29:02 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 29:03 Isn't that what it is?

Rick Strassman 29:04 Sweetbreads-

Joe Rogan 29:05 It's l- it's a gland. It's one of the glands.

Rick Strassman 29:07 Oh. Oh, the thymus maybe.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Thymus, that's right.

Rick Strassman 29:09 Yeah, it might be the thymus. Yeah, the thymus is kind of like the, uh, spleen, uh, or like the liver.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Is that what it is?

Rick Strassman 29:15 It's, it's, uh, quite rich-

Joe Rogan 29:16 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 29:17 ... in blood vessels.

Joe Rogan 29:18 Here it goes, "Thymus-"

Rick Strassman 29:20 Okay.

Joe Rogan 29:20 "... cuts of meat from either the thymus gland located in the throat or the pancreas gland in the s- by the stomach." Wow. So y-... They could... Sweetbreads could be either one of those things.

Rick Strassman 29:32 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:32 Interesting. So it's like a generic term, "In lamb, veal, pig, or beef, they have a rich creamy texture and are often served roasted or fried."

Rick Strassman 29:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Yeah, people eating organs... I mean, liver is really, really good for you. Like, it makes sense that you would think brain is really, really good for you too.

Rick Strassman 29:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:47 And it might be, but maybe, like, nature doesn't want people eating people's brains, so it (laughs) created these prion diseases.

Rick Strassman 29:53 Um, well, you'd have to screen the brains before you ate them.

Joe Rogan 29:56 Yeah, but even so, is the juice worth the squeeze?

Rick Strassman 29:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:59 (laughs) I mean, what are you getting out of eating brains?

Rick Strassman 30:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:03 I wonder what it's like. I mean-

Rick Strassman 30:04 Well, it would depend on whose brain.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Right. What if you ate Einstein's brain and you actually got smarter?

Rick Strassman 30:10 Uh...

Joe Rogan 30:10 If he gave you permission.

Rick Strassman 30:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:12 "Look, I got about a week left."

Rick Strassman 30:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:13 "Take my brain."

Rick Strassman 30:15 Yeah. Well, you know the frozen fr- uh, the frozen brain banks out there?

Joe Rogan 30:20 I have heard of that.

Rick Strassman 30:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:22 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 30:22 Yeah, they f-... Uh, they flash freeze your brain right after you die. Y- you have to agree to it beforehand, but, uh...

Joe Rogan 30:29 But imagine-... if you were in transcendence, you've escaped this physical reality, and you've gone into the next amazing dimension where there's no deception, it's all love and energy, and you're floating together in music. And then some dipshit brings you back to life, and you zoop, you get sucked backwards, but now you're stuck in a computer.

Rick Strassman 30:55 Um-

Joe Rogan 30:56 Can you imagine?

Rick Strassman 30:56 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:56 If that was your soul, your soul is just sucked back into that brain as soon as it's reanimated.

Rick Strassman 31:03 Well, I have thought about it.

Joe Rogan 31:05 Have you?

Rick Strassman 31:05 Yeah, yeah, what do you think that would be like? Wh- what-

Joe Rogan 31:07 Terrifying.

Rick Strassman 31:08 You wouldn't want to do it.

Joe Rogan 31:09 Well, it'd be terrifying if they couldn't get rid of it, like if, if you couldn't go back. Like what if there's like portals, right, like you were saying, and what if those portals are activated by normal human neurochemistry, right?

Rick Strassman 31:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 31:22 And that, that, and it's a part of dying-

Rick Strassman 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:25 ... is that these portals are open. But what if that fucking portal's open, they, you go, you transcend, and then they bring that goddamn brain back to life, 'cause you wanted to live forever. So they take that thing that they had flash-frozened, they kick that sucker back on, and now you're just an embodied brain-

Rick Strassman 31:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:41 ... in a fucking computer attached to a bunch of wires.

Rick Strassman 31:45 Well, I mean, if you were having experience though.

Joe Rogan 31:47 But what kind of experience would you have? Maybe you'd just be experiencing the fact that you're stuck in a computer.

Rick Strassman 31:53 Um, yeah. I mean, it, you're kind of describing The Matrix.

Joe Rogan 31:57 S- yeah, I'm describing hell. It's worse than The Matrix. There's not even a body that you can detach. In The Matrix, they detached their heads, remember?

Rick Strassman 32:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 32:04 They got out of it. "Oh, we gotta get out of The Matrix." You can't get out of The Matrix if you're just a brain.

Rick Strassman 32:10 Um, well, you know, one of the interesting things about endogenous DMT, and especially with this discovery in such high levels in the brain, is that it may be the endo-matrix. It could be kind of regulating everything all of the time.

Joe Rogan 32:26 What do you mean by that, regulating everything all the time?

Rick Strassman 32:29 It could be the way we interact with reality, is through endogenous DMT, which is always at a steady level. Well, it's-

Joe Rogan 32:40 Hmm.

Rick Strassman 32:40 ... uh, the, the way I began wondering about that is because, you know, what is the purpose of endogenous DMT? You know, why does the brain make DMT?

Joe Rogan 32:48 Can you do a DMT test on a person's blood level?

Rick Strassman 32:53 It's, it's pretty hard. It's pretty hard. It's really low in, uh, blood. It's like, you know, billionths of a gram per milliliter.

Joe Rogan 33:01 Okay, so you'd have to measure it in the actual brain itself?

Rick Strassman 33:03 In the brain or spinal fluid, maybe spinal fluid, but most likely brain.

Joe Rogan 33:07 When they start doing stuff like Neuralink, where they're gonna insert wires into your brain, and, you know, you're gonna have an app (laughs) to control your brain, (laughs) to control, control your mood, I mean, it seems like that would be one of the ways they would do it, right?

Rick Strassman 33:23 Um, well, you'd need to find, you know, where in the brain the main, you know, source of DMT is and then put an electrode there and keep that going.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Do you think it's con- it's, uh, limited to one specific area where it's developed?

Rick Strassman 33:38 Oh, man, they're just, they're just beginning to unravel the whole, uh, role and location of endogenous DMT.

Joe Rogan 33:47 So when they know that it's in the liver and they know that it's in the lungs, um, the lungs, to me, sound interesting because of holotropic breathing.

Rick Strassman 33:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:55 You know, uh, because people have done breathing exercises and achieved states of, uh, uh, altered states of consciousness.

Rick Strassman 34:03 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:04 That, that kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

Rick Strassman 34:06 Well, yeah, but I think it's not working through the lungs because those more recent studies haven't really demonstrated DMT in lung.

Joe Rogan 34:14 Oh.

Rick Strassman 34:14 Yeah, yeah. I used to say it's made in lung. Everybody used to say it's made in lung, but it seems like it's made in brain.

Joe Rogan 34:20 So if it's made in brain, then all the other stuff, you're just getting like a trickle-down effect?

Rick Strassman 34:25 Well-

Joe Rogan 34:26 Does it go through the whole body?

Rick Strassman 34:28 Yeah, but it's metabolized so quickly that, you know, by the time it gets into the blood that you're drawing, uh, the concentrations are pretty minuscule.

Joe Rogan 34:35 Wow. What a sneaky molecule. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 34:40 Well, you have to wonder what it's doing, right?

Joe Rogan 34:42 Right, what is it doing?

Rick Strassman 34:43 What is endogenous? What's the function of it? You know, there is the possibility we have a DMT neurotransmitter system, like serotonin or dopamine, in which case, wh- you know, what is it doing?

Joe Rogan 34:53 Wow. So this is, this is a really wild way to think about it because to this time, I'd never even considered that. I always thought of it as being something that was responsible maybe for very vivid dreams or something that was responsible for near-death experiences or what happens to you when you die-

Rick Strassman 35:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 35:10 ... the idea of a portal.

Rick Strassman 35:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:12 But I never thought about it as being something that is regulating regular, everyday reality.

Rick Strassman 35:19 Um, well, you know, one of the hallmarks of the DMT effect is that it feels more real than real.

Joe Rogan 35:27 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 35:28 And, uh, you study the function of endogenous neurotransmitters by giving, you know, drugs that modify the effect of that endogenous neurotransmitter. You know, so we've got the SSR antidepressants, and they affect serotonin, although they may not all that much. But, but still, that's been the working model for decades. And, uh, you know, so be- you know, because SRIs are useful for depression and anxiety, you then can speculate that serotonin is responsible for mood or anxiety. You know, so the hallmark of a, you know, DMT effect is it's more real than real. It feels more real than anything else. You know, so it's tempting to speculate. (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 36:12 What, what, that again, when I go back to that disembodied, uh, mind thought process of like thinking like, "What am I thinking when I'm over there?" Since my body doesn't seem to be there, and I'm there, and it s- it seems more real than real, is that me just tricking myself into thinking that it's a different place?

Rick Strassman 36:31 Uh-I mean, how could you tell?

Joe Rogan 36:33 How could I tell, right?

Rick Strassman 36:34 Y- yeah. I mean, how would you know?

Joe Rogan 36:36 I have one way of looking at it that I always describe. This is what I say to people. I say, "If there was a thing that you could do, like a door you could go through, and that door would take you to the, uh, n- another dimension where you would communicate with some entity beyond your wildest imagination that's constantly visually changing and communicating with you telepathically, and knows everything about you, sees all your bullshit, and is trying to impart some ideas that will help you with your life, 'cause it's a god-like experience." Like, you're experiencing, like, some sort of a uber powerful entity, some more uber intelligent entity, something beyond any... Well, if we just looked at humans and thought of the hu- the evolution of human, one day we'll get to this. We're not gonna get to that. That is a different... It seems like it's so beyond the body. It's so beyond the, the human monkey body. This is what I tell people. I go, "If I could give... If you would open a door and you would go there and you'd have the, that experience, you, would you do it?" And most people are like, "Yes, I would do it." If I gave you a drug that gave you that experience, you still have the exact same experience. It's the exact same experience. You've just decided it's not real. And you've decided it's not real because you're putting it into this category of hallucination. Like, what does that even mean? What does that even mean? You're actually having that experience. I don't know what it is. I mean, I, I like to place... play devil's advocate, and I like to think that maybe I'm messing with my own head and maybe I'm just... Like, it's like, I'm, like, look-

Rick Strassman 38:14 My... Well, through doing what?

Joe Rogan 38:15 Looking at it like maybe it's just my neurochemistry going bonkers and, and, and, you know, and yeah, interacting with my visual cortex produ- produces hallucinations.

Rick Strassman 38:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:24 But I... It doesn't feel that way. That's what I'm... That's why I'm trying to figure out if you're bullshitting yourself when you're over there (laughs) or if it's r- you really are over there. But what I tell people is, "It's the same experience."

Rick Strassman 38:35 Yeah, what difference does it make?

Joe Rogan 38:37 What... Yeah.

Rick Strassman 38:38 Yeah. Um, it's, you know, previously invisible-

Joe Rogan 38:41 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 38:42 ... and it contains information.

Joe Rogan 38:44 A lot. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 38:45 Yeah, and, and I think that's all you can say about it.

Joe Rogan 38:48 It contains information about you, right?

Rick Strassman 38:51 Well, it c- it, it could only be happening to you.

Joe Rogan 38:54 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 38:54 Yeah, because it's not happening to somebody else.

Joe Rogan 38:56 It's like it gives you advice.

Rick Strassman 38:58 It can. Uh, but you... I'm, I mean, how do you judge the value of that advice?

Joe Rogan 39:04 Yeah. Well, what is the adv- One, one of the things that happened to me, I've talked about this ad nauseum, unfortunately, if you've heard this before, folks. But, uh, th- I had... One of my experiences, there was, like, a bunch of jokers, like jesters, with, like, jester hats, and they were giving me the finger. They were going like this, "Fuck you." And it made me realize I was taking myself too seriously. Like, instantaneously I went, "Oh, I get it." And they went like this. They went like, "Don't do that. Don't do that." But, like, saying "fuck you" to me, it was so clear what they were doing. It was so clear. It was like a little lesson. Like, "Don't do that."

Rick Strassman 39:42 Yeah. It's interesting. Y- you know, "Don't do that," that's, like, three syllables-

Joe Rogan 39:47 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 39:47 ... and they correspond to a heartbeat. You know, when I tripped on DMT the first time, uh, these beings came out of this waterfall and they said, "Now do you see? Now do you see?"

Joe Rogan 39:57 Mm. Yeah.

Rick Strassman 39:57 "Now do you see?" It was the same three-beat thing.

Joe Rogan 40:00 "I love you." They say "I love you" a lot.

Rick Strassman 40:02 "I love you." And I think that corresponds to the heartbeat because it's in sync. You know, the vocalizations-

Joe Rogan 40:08 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 40:08 ... is in sync with the heartbeat.

Joe Rogan 40:10 I love you. I love you. Yeah.

Rick Strassman 40:11 Bum, bum, bum. Bum, bum, bum.

Joe Rogan 40:13 Um, the... One time I did it and these entities were talking to me and saying, "I love you," 600,500,000 times. Like the way a, a child would say "I love you" with, like, some crazy number. "7 billion zillion z-" You know, and they... And every time they did that, it would show a more beautiful image. Like, every image. Like, "I love you" 600,500,000 times. "I love you" 700,000,400,000... And e- every time they did it, it was just this bigger and bigger experience visually to the point where I was, like, crying. I was, like, openly weeping-

Rick Strassman 40:47 Oh, yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 40:48 ... at the beauty of just what I was seeing.

Rick Strassman 40:50 It sounds, it sounds beautiful.

Joe Rogan 40:50 It was wild. But it was that simple, sort of, there's this, like a s- Like, they'll say simple things to you in a way that you're not really hearing it, but you know what they're saying.

Rick Strassman 41:03 Well, i- it kinda penetrates you.

Joe Rogan 41:05 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 41:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:06 It's very weird.

Rick Strassman 41:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:08 And y- to-

Rick Strassman 41:09 It's very weird.

Joe Rogan 41:10 Very weird.

Rick Strassman 41:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:12 You used to not talk about your personal experiences with it.

Rick Strassman 41:15 I know. I figured to hell with it.

Joe Rogan 41:17 (laughs) Yeah, I think so.

Rick Strassman 41:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:19 I think it's good that you did that, 'cause I remember when we first met, you were reluctant to discuss it. You, you, you... I mean, you didn't really wanna talk about it publicly or want people to know about it publicly.

Rick Strassman 41:29 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I figured, uh, that I had s- some legitimacy to maintain.

Joe Rogan 41:35 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 41:36 Uh, (laughs) a, a few years back, I had this conversation, uh, you know, with Dennis McKenna ab- uh, you know, like, about your reputation and, or, you know, one's reputation, and he said, "I've just given up on my reputation." It, it just, you know... So-

Joe Rogan 41:50 Well, when you talk as openly about psychedelics as Dennis, he's the best guy to talk about it too, because his... uh, he's got a, a really interesting way of dis- discussing things, you know, and he's had so many personal experiences and he's so smart and he's got this incredible vocabulary to just draw from, and when he describes the actual impact of, of psilocybin and psychedelic chemicals, particularly in the formation of language. He was describing the stoned ape theory. So-

Rick Strassman 42:18 The stoned ape, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:19 It's incredible, uh, hi- listening to him say it 'cause the way he describes it, like, he actually understands what psilocybin and what all these various molecules are doing to different parts of the brain and why that would facilitate the development of language and compassion and, and-

Rick Strassman 42:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:34 ... connect and try more and...

Rick Strassman 42:36 Um, well, I mean, you know, do you think it actually...... is information coming from the brain or do you think, you know, that the portal's being opened up and the information's coming from above?

Joe Rogan 42:48 I think that's more likely. I think the more likely is that the brain is an antenna. You know, it's one of the things that creative people always tell you. Like, someone sits down and writes a song. It just, like, came from the air. They're getting things from somewhere else almost. And it's almost like you just gotta get out of your own way. You gotta put enough good juice out there in the world and take enough bad out, and, like, and then just ... and see the world from a, a, a p- a clear perspective in, at least in, in these brief moments of creativity, and then things come to them. They just pew, like they're sitting in front of the computer and bam, they got an idea for a book. Like, where the fuck is all that coming from? It seems like people always want to say it's a muse. Like, that's the Steven Pressfield, uh, analogy. He's got a great book about it called The War of Art, all about, like, like, inviting the muse into your life, and being disciplined and sitting there at a computer every day and summoning it and treating it like it's an entity. And if you do that, it works. Like, this is what's crazy. Like, people who are disciplined and also creative, like, that decide, "I'm gonna write this book, I'm gonna sit down, and I'm gonna force myself every day." Like, ideas come to them. Like, where are they ... where the fuck are they coming from?

Rick Strassman 44:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:00 Like, is it possible that the brain really is, like, some sort of an antenna? And that wisdom and love and all these different things, they're, they're just all around us. We're just confused by our monkey bodies.

Rick Strassman 44:14 Well, do you think we're getting that information from God?

Joe Rogan 44:18 If that's what you want to call it. You know, the, the, the, the only problem I have with the word God, and it's not really a problem, but, uh, it's a recognition, is that it's a loaded word.

Rick Strassman 44:29 It's a loaded word. But so is love.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yes. Yes.

Rick Strassman 44:32 You know? So I think you just gotta take the good with the bad.

Joe Rogan 44:35 Well, that's Alex Grey's position.

Rick Strassman 44:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:36 Alex Grey says we have to take it back, the same way we take back love and say "God" all the time. And, you know, and that's what he does.

Rick Strassman 44:42 Yeah, and that's the reason I think it's good to use the word psychedelic instead of hallucinogen or-

Joe Rogan 44:48 Yeah, I think so too.

Rick Strassman 44:48 ... entheogen or anything like that.

Joe Rogan 44:50 Entheogen's a cool word.

Rick Strassman 44:51 It's cool. It, it assumes a lot, though.

Joe Rogan 44:54 Yeah, it's like people that call weed cannabis.

Rick Strassman 44:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:57 You know? "I, I like to smoke a lot of cannabis." Like, okay.

Rick Strassman 45:00 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 45:00 Settle down, buddy. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 45:01 Yeah, like the term entheogen, it refers to God.

Joe Rogan 45:04 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 45:04 Entheos. And, uh, it refers to en, which means that God exists within.

Joe Rogan 45:09 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 45:10 And the ... it has the word en- gen in it, which means it's a drug which is, you know, generating something, like a, like God. You know, so that assumes a lot. And there are people who could benefit from psychedelic experiences who might not have cottoned to those ideas and would avoid an entheogen but might take a psychedelic.

Joe Rogan 45:28 Yeah. I think psychedelic sounds manageable. Entheogen sounds like you're joining a cult.

Rick Strassman 45:33 It's a bit cultish.

Joe Rogan 45:34 (laughs) It's a l- ... Well, isn't everything a bit cultish? It seems like whatever anything, you know, really affects people in a lot of ways, there's always someone who looks to sort of take the reins and sort of dictate what the experience is, and how to do it, and what the ritual should be, and how you should, you know, manage it, and ... It gets culty.

Rick Strassman 45:55 Uh, it gets culty. Um, but I think you could, you know, de-cultify it-

Joe Rogan 45:59 Yes.

Rick Strassman 46:00 ... to s-, you know, to some extent. If, if, if you're open-minded.

Joe Rogan 46:03 I think it also h- all, all practitioners ... I mean, there's a problem ... Here's the big problems with psychedelics, one of the big problems, is that we haven't really had a chance to openly discuss it in terms of, like, the effective and ineffective ways to use it, what's, what's detrimental, what's abusive, you know, what ... Treatment centers. Like we, we sh- we could've all this, had this lined up, right? If they didn't pass that sweeping psychedelics act, the controlled substances that we, uh, uh, eh ... Right now, uh, they're still illegal. But they've been a part of human history forever. The ... If, if they just opened that up, we would have the ability to tell people how to use them and how not to use them. We'd have the ability to monitor them. And you're gonna have some strays. You're gonna have some things that go wrong. Th- so there's gotta have to be some ways to mitigate that, right? And if this theory of, like, people that have these psychedelic breaks, if it's a d- a p- ... Imagine if you could find out that it really is, like, some sort of an overload of DMT. Like, they're, they have exogenous levels that are too high-

Rick Strassman 47:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:08 ... and they can't manage it. Reality's too fabricated.

Rick Strassman 47:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:11 Or fragmented, rather.

Rick Strassman 47:12 Yeah. I think, you know, if we can keep things going with psychedelic research in humans, there's a vast number of options that are gonna start opening up. For example, like, a vaccine against endogenous DMT. I mean, that might be a great antipsychotic.

Joe Rogan 47:26 That is wild. Can you imagine if that's really what it is? They just gotta dial it d- ... Or maybe some sort of technological, uh, intervention, like a Neuralink-type thing, where I think they're gonna be able to dial things in, which is gonna be crazy. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 47:40 Oh yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:40 You're gonna be able to dial in horny, you're gonna be able to dial in happy. Uh, I mean, 50 years from now, who knows what they're gonna be able to do?

Rick Strassman 47:48 Um, well, they're breeding these things called knockout mice, which don't produce the gene which makes, you know, X, Y or Z. And they've developed knockout mice for the enzyme that makes DMT.

Joe Rogan 47:59 Oh, wow.

Rick Strassman 48:00 Uh, uh, you know, so there are animals that don't produce any DMT. You know, so you might be able, at some point too and put genes into people, like, you know, CRISPR.

Joe Rogan 48:09 Mm.

Rick Strassman 48:09 And, you know, have them stop making their own DMT.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Maybe that ... That'd be a good zombie movie. Everybody stops making their own DMT and just ...

Rick Strassman 48:16 Well, you know, there's a lot of good movies I think could kind of spring from DMT.

Joe Rogan 48:20 Yeah. Well, if all animals are producing DMT, that's where things get really fascinating, right? And if many plants produce DMT, and at least, uh, have some of the compounds of DMT in them, like, what do you think is going on?

Rick Strassman 48:39 Uh, well, uh, do you remember that language called Esperanto?

Joe Rogan 48:43 Yes.

Rick Strassman 48:43 Yeah. I think it's like a invisible ... it's, it's like a spiritual Esperanto.I think, uh, th- that organisms that contain DMT are are able to communicate with each other. That's, you know, just an idea, but I think you can occupy the same, you know, wavelength of communication depending on the configuration of your matter. And it may be that that configuration is common to any organism possessing DMT.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Wow.

Rick Strassman 49:09 You know, so it might be ... Well, you know how you can communicate with trees, let's say, when you're really stoned, uh, on psychedelics or otherwise? But, uh, you know, that could be how. You know, that could be, you know, the empathy existing among organisms. Uh, could we take a break?

Joe Rogan 49:26 Yes.

Rick Strassman 49:27 Good.

Joe Rogan 49:27 We'll take a break right now. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 49:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:31 And we're back. So what were you saying? (laughs)

Rick Strassman 49:34 Yeah. The, the first time I smoked pot, I got hooked. It was like, you know, "This is the most amazing thing in the world."

Joe Rogan 49:39 Did you recreate that? Or were you ... Like, to have an experience like that for your first time with the, the hash.

Rick Strassman 49:45 No. No, I never did. Uh-

Joe Rogan 49:47 Chase that dragon.

Rick Strassman 49:48 Yeah. Well, you know, it was enough. Like, I was convinced that th- this was gonna be something I wanted to study. And after the first time I smoked DMT, I knew that was what I was gonna study.

Joe Rogan 50:01 Now, when you had this idea, how did you go about ... How did you go about getting approval for study?

Rick Strassman 50:12 Um, well, it was a very long strategy. Um, I, um, (smacks lips) I came up with the idea of studying psychedelics when I was 20. Um, I was doing developmental embryology work at Stanford, uh, in the summer between my junior and senior years. I was studying the development of the chicken's central nervous system (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 50:33 Oh, wow.

Rick Strassman 50:34 ... in Petri dishes. It was very high tech. It was fun.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Wow.

Rick Strassman 50:38 Uh, we got t- two papers resulting from the research that I did that year. Um, and, uh, I, uh, wanted to study psychedelics, but I didn't really know y- how to do it. I thought, "Well, maybe I'll just get some lab experience." And I was reading all of the books for the next year's classes, uh, which involved Freud and Buddhism and the new developments in consciousness that were coming out at the time. And, uh, I watched ... So I was watching the sunset go down, uh, one evening, and I flashed, "I'm gonna study psychedelics and combine Freud, Buddhism, and psychopharmacology." Y- you know, but I was 20 years old, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:22 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:23 And, uh, it ... In the beginning, it didn't get a good reception. Most of the medical s-

Joe Rogan 51:29 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:29 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:31 Yeah, well, I applied to 21 medical schools, and the 19 that gave me a chance to, you know, tell them why I wanted to be a doctor, you know, they just said, "Forget it."

Joe Rogan 51:40 So you were honest, unfortunately. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:42 I was out of my mind.

Joe Rogan 51:44 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:44 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 51:47 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 51:47 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so the two schools that did admit me, uh, you know, it ... They were either really short, uh, interviews or they steered me away from my obsession.

Joe Rogan 51:57 Wow.

Rick Strassman 51:57 You know, but I, I, I ... You know, um, you know, but I ... You got the idea that talking about psychedelics when you're 20 years old in the early '70s was n- not really gonna fly. So, I, you know, kept my interest, you know, to myself, but I wanted to get trained enough, uh, to be able, you know, to do that kind of work at some point in the future. So, I went to medical school, and I trained in psychiatry. And, uh, you know, took, uh, a job up in Alaska, which was around the time that people were thinking and starting to understand winter depression, which then put emphasis on the pineal gland and melatonin. So, I thought, you, you know, that was a, a, a ... You know, that was a entryway into studying the pineal gland and, uh, the function of melatonin in humans. So-

Joe Rogan 52:51 And so, the pineal gland definitely produces melatonin? That's where it comes from?

Rick Strassman 52:55 Yeah, yeah. It's ... That's been known since the '40s. Yeah, and, uh, a l- ... There wasn't a lot known back then in the early '80s, so I went back and trained some more in clinical psychopharmacology research, you know, to learn how to do, you know, drug studies. Uh, you know, giving drugs, taking samples, doing questionnaires. And so, I, I moved to UNM, University of New Mexico, and ran that melatonin/pineal study. And I, you know, got my chops as a clinical researcher. Um, and, you know, melatonin was not especially psychoactive, we discovered. It just does kind of sedating, and it helps regulate body temperature in the middle of the night, you know, but it was not psychedelic.

Joe Rogan 53:38 Is someone's phone ringing? You hear that? Yeah, I think you accidentally dialed someone.

Rick Strassman 53:47 Oh, really? Oh, yeah, Tristan.

Joe Rogan 53:51 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 53:53 That keeps happening. It's just Tristan.

Joe Rogan 53:55 (laughs) Just put the phone, put the phone on the table.

Rick Strassman 53:58 Yeah, sorry.

Joe Rogan 53:58 It's ... 'Cause I didn't know how you pocket call with a flip phone. Did you know that you could do that, Jamie?

Narrator 54:04 It's been a while.

Joe Rogan 54:04 It was the, the way it was ringing. I'm like, "That's not his ring."

Narrator 54:07 Yeah, I heard a noise, but I didn't know what it was either.

Joe Rogan 54:08 Oh. But it wasn't his ring. You know, your ring is like, "Brring." Right, right.

Rick Strassman 54:12 Yeah, I apologize.

Joe Rogan 54:12 Was an outgoing- That was, like, a outgoing ring.

Narrator 54:14 Huh?

Joe Rogan 54:14 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 54:15 Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 54:15 No, no, it's okay. I just didn't want someone else listening to our entire conversation.

Narrator 54:19 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 54:19 Yeah, yeah, that's Tristan.

Joe Rogan 54:21 (laughs) Well, but you wouldn't be ... I didn't know that it was a flip phone. You wouldn't even be able to pick up without opening it up.

Rick Strassman 54:27 Uh, true.

Joe Rogan 54:29 That's so old school of you. I love the fact that you have a flip phone. I think we were all happier back then.

Rick Strassman 54:33 Oh, y- ... Well, this flip phone is, you know, 4G, and I had to upgrade from my 3G flip phone. This-

Joe Rogan 54:39 Oh, they made you, these bastards.

Rick Strassman 54:40 They stopped serving. Yeah, the, uh ...

Joe Rogan 54:41 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 54:43 Yeah, yeah, Verizon, they-

Joe Rogan 54:44 (coughs)

Rick Strassman 54:44 They texted me or something and said-

Joe Rogan 54:46 Cut you off, son. It's over.

Rick Strassman 54:47 Yeah. Uh, "You have to upgrade to 4G."

Joe Rogan 54:49 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 54:49 So, I got this one.

Joe Rogan 54:50 And now they get the 5G. You gotta get 5. Uh, the, the 6 is gonna come out soon.

Rick Strassman 54:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:56 It's never gonna end. Meanwhile, you're just rocking a flip phone. There's something about a flip phone. Like, hanging up on someone is much more satisfying.That's all you'd have to carry around. I bet the battery lasts a year. How long does the battery last on this thing?

Rick Strassman 55:09 Uh, I, I keep it charged. Uh, you know, two, three days. Not that long.

Joe Rogan 55:13 And it's got a camera to, like, report crime? (laughs)

Rick Strassman 55:15 It, it has a camera and texts. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:18 It does text?

Rick Strassman 55:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:19 Does it do voice-to-text?

Rick Strassman 55:21 Uh, no.

Joe Rogan 55:22 If it does that ... If it did that, I'd be really seriously thinking about it.

Rick Strassman 55:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:25 'Cause that voice to text is so easy. Like, you could answer text messages while you're in the car. Just say, "Hey, Siri. Text Rick Strassman."

Rick Strassman 55:34 Uh, you could do that with Dragon.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Oh, okay. So if you have Dragon NaturallySpeaking on your phone?

Rick Strassman 55:41 On your phone. It'll-

Joe Rogan 55:42 Can you get that on that?

Rick Strassman 55:43 Yeah, it, it will, you know, transcribe from the cloud.

Joe Rogan 55:46 On a flip phone?

Rick Strassman 55:47 Well, n- not on a flip phone.

Joe Rogan 55:48 Well, that's what I'm saying.

Rick Strassman 55:49 Oh.

Joe Rogan 55:49 I'm saying if that had it, because, uh, Siri has it.

Rick Strassman 55:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:53 You know, you could do it off ... Or Android, um, Auto has it too.

Rick Strassman 55:56 I spend so much time in front of a screen that-

Joe Rogan 55:59 Right.

Rick Strassman 55:59 ... just one more screen would, would have just driven me around the bend.

Joe Rogan 56:02 Well, it's driving people crazy 'cause they're just looking to argue with people all day. (laughs) And it's like everyone's mad at everything. And there's so little attention spent to your immediate life and y- you know, what's actually going around you. Everyone's, like, freaking out about things that are happening nowhere near them most of the time.

Rick Strassman 56:23 Yeah. Well, that's one of the things I like about living in Gallup, New Mexico, is that you watch the wind.

Joe Rogan 56:29 Mm.

Rick Strassman 56:29 You know? Like, it's pretty quiet. And even though people have, you know, phones there, they're mostly interested in other things. Church, you know, the rodeo, uh, the upcoming parades.

Joe Rogan 56:44 Sounds like a good place to live.

Rick Strassman 56:46 It's the, it's the most patriotic small town in America.

Joe Rogan 56:48 Really?

Rick Strassman 56:49 Yeah. I- It was voted.

Joe Rogan 56:50 Wow. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 56:50 Yeah. Well, there's code talkers out there. You know, the Navajo, you know, code talkers?

Joe Rogan 56:57 I've heard that expression, but I don't know what that means.

Rick Strassman 56:59 Yeah, yeah, that's a great story. You might want to have a-

Joe Rogan 57:01 Is that, like, from the war?

Rick Strassman 57:02 It's from World War II, the Pacific arena. Uh, you know, the Navajo speak a very difficult-to-learn language, and they put, uh, Navajo in Japan with the troops and, uh, Navajo stateside and, uh, you know, they communicated, uh, using Navajo. And the Japanese could not, uh, figure out the language that was-

Joe Rogan 57:29 Wow.

Rick Strassman 57:29 ... being used. Yeah, and the code talkers, uh, the feeling goes, with a lot of pride, that, you know, they were responsible or played a major, uh, role in the American victory. And so the Navajo-

Joe Rogan 57:43 Wow. That, that makes sense. Like, how quick would it ... How ... I mean, 1947? How quick is it gonna be to learn Navajo?

Rick Strassman 57:53 Yeah, y- ... Well, you know, you may wanna get one of those Navajo, you know, code talkers in here this ... You know, they're all in their 90s, and they're these amazing guys. They're incredibly ... Well, y- yeah. Th- they're, they're just amazing. They're-

Joe Rogan 58:05 How many of them were there?

Rick Strassman 58:07 There were quite a few. There were, uh, you know ... There were probably hundreds. Uh, there's maybe, uh, like a dozen, you know, two dozen that are still alive.

Joe Rogan 58:16 That seems like a story that needs more attention.

Rick Strassman 58:19 It's, it's a really great story. There's a code talker museum th- I think just opened in DC.

Joe Rogan 58:23 Oh, really?

Rick Strassman 58:24 Yeah, yeah. The Navajo Code Talkers. You know, check 'em out. Uh, you know, so yeah, it, it's a quiet place to live, good place to read and study and write and w- walk around. Uh, I'm not that current without, you know, looking at y- uh, the news.

Joe Rogan 58:40 Good.

Rick Strassman 58:42 And I could just, you know, turn that off.

Joe Rogan 58:43 Yeah. It's just too much for us. I mean, I don't think we should just, like, let corruption, chaos happen. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying for just healthy human beings, the average healthy human being, it is too much to be tuned into all day long, and it's so damn addictive.

Rick Strassman 59:01 Well, it's, it's ... And it's not good news.

Joe Rogan 59:03 No, and that's what the thing ... That's what attracts people, is the shitty news. (laughs) The good news, like, gets a quick glance, and, like, "What should I be mad at? What should I be terrified of?"

Rick Strassman 59:13 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:14 What are they taking away next?

Rick Strassman 59:15 Well, you know, I kinda don't want to go there, but what do you think of Monkeypox?

Joe Rogan 59:24 You don't wanna go there, but what do you think of Monkeypox? (laughs)

Rick Strassman 59:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:27 Sounds like you definitely wanted to go there.

Rick Strassman 59:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:30 Um, I think it's, um, a disease that is, uh, primarily affecting people who have, uh, unprotected, uh ... It seems like gay sex, right?

Rick Strassman 59:40 Seems like it.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Seems like it's, like, 90-something percent of the cases. You know, um, there's a ... some sort of a vaccine for it, apparently?

Rick Strassman 59:49 Yeah. I don't know much-

Joe Rogan 59:50 And is there treatment for it? Like, do the- what ... Do they know how to cure it?

Rick Strassman 59:52 Supportive treatment.

Joe Rogan 59:53 Uh, just supportive treatment?

Rick Strassman 59:55 Fluids, uh-

Joe Rogan 59:56 So they just wait until it goes away?

Rick Strassman 59:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:58 And how long does it usually take to go away?

Rick Strassman 1:00:00 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Is it killing people?

Rick Strassman 1:00:02 No, it's not killing people, but they're pretty uncomfortable. Those are apparently pretty painful sores.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Mm, they look gross.

Rick Strassman 1:00:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 Um, I mean, is there a bright side that it's not killing people?

Rick Strassman 1:00:14 Yeah, yeah. It's hard-

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 It's hard to say when some fucking weird disease spreads.

Rick Strassman 1:00:18 Yeah, and I don't get weird diseases, or I, I don't even get the news about weird diseases on this phone.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 It's made it jump to other people. It's not, um, just people having unprotected gay sex. It's people that haven't had any sex at all.

Rick Strassman 1:00:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 In fact, I think even kids are getting it now.

Rick Strassman 1:00:32 E- e- e- extended contact-

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:00:34 ... I think can do it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 It's f- It's a fucking creepy disease though.

Rick Strassman 1:00:37 Yeah. Yeah, it's got a horrible name.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Yeah, yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:00:40 Th- they should call it something else.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 Too late, right?

Rick Strassman 1:00:43 Or, you can call it MPX.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Yeah, but why didn't they just come up with a better name before they just busted out with Monkeypox?

Rick Strassman 1:00:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 But they do that. Swine Flu, you know, avian virus.

Rick Strassman 1:00:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 It's al- It's always a, a way we connect it to animals, those zoonotic diseases.

Rick Strassman 1:00:58 Zoonotics, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 It's creepy. (laughs) It's creepy how many of them there are out there, you know?

Rick Strassman 1:01:04 Yeah, I know. Um, well, so what keeps you going? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 With what?

Rick Strassman 1:01:10 Your kids. Do your kids keep you going?

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 What do you mean by keep me going?

Rick Strassman 1:01:13 Y- you know, keep an optimistic look, uh ... Well, not necessarily optimistic, but what gives you hope?

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 Um, I think more than I've ever thought before that most people are really good people. Most people try to be really good people. They want to have a good life. Most people.

Rick Strassman 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 That's most. I think you're always gonna deal with certain numbers of people that are trying to make enormous profits and doing so at the expense of either the environment or people's lives or/and they're gonna influence politicians and they're gonna make laws that benefit these people. And they're/they've done this since the beginning of time. I mean, Eisenhower warned about it when he was leaving office. He warned about the military industrial complex. He warned about all that shit. He warned about ... I mean, we/they/they warned about that when they built the fucking Constitution. It's/but I think overall most people aren't like that. Most people aren't trying to control people and ruin the Earth for profit. Most people are just trying to live their life. It's a s- it's a s- ... It's a significant impact for sure and it's horrible and it represents us overall. It does 'cause what are pe- people capable of at their worst? Well, they're capable of starting unnecessary wars that are gonna cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives for profit. We know that people have done that. That's very dis-

Rick Strassman 1:02:44 For sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 But that's not you and that's not me and that's not Jamie. That's not most people. Most people are good. That's what I think, so that's what keeps me going.

Rick Strassman 1:02:53 Yeah. Um, I think most people are good but I think most people are easily swayed.

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 Well, when things go sideways and when people get scared, when people get scared y- y- ... Their anxiety gets ramped up and they look for something to be mad at.

Rick Strassman 1:03:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 And it ramps up their anger at that person.

Rick Strassman 1:03:14 Yeah. A few years ago, I, I was pretty sick for a year seeing that Joseph Leary book.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 Wow.

Rick Strassman 1:03:19 And, uh, as I was recuperating, I was reading concentration camp stories.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Oh, Jesus.

Rick Strassman 1:03:23 Concentration camp literature. Well, I just wanted to see how low you could go and still/and still come out of it. And, you know, the c- the concentration camp culture/history is pretty/it's pretty, uh ... Well, it's, it's amazing what kind of evil everyday people can, y- you know, lay on other people. It's, uh, it's just remarkable.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 They re/they just got a new guy, didn't they? Just find/just/just caught a new guard.

Rick Strassman 1:03:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 And convicted him. I mean, he's in his 90s now.

Rick Strassman 1:03:58 Yeah. Those guys are really old. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Isn't that wild?

Rick Strassman 1:04:02 Oh, man. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Think about but that people who are alive today participated in genocide in the '40s.

Rick Strassman 1:04:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Here he is. "101-year-old ex-guard of Nazi camp is convicted by German court. The man identified only as Joseph S., because of Germany privacy laws ..." Wow, they're even private of Nazis.

Rick Strassman 1:04:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 "... was sentenced to five years in prison after being found guilty of being an accessory to more than 3,500 murders." Five years in prison? That's all?

Rick Strassman 1:04:37 Well, he may not live beyond-

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 That's all they gave him?

Rick Strassman 1:04:39 ... the first couple.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Yeah. They might beat him to death in there.

Rick Strassman 1:04:44 Yeah. Yeah. He/he doesn't want a Jewish cellmate.

Narrator 1:04:47 It actually says it's not even clear if he would even serve the time.

Rick Strassman 1:04:49 Yeah. He may not.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 Oh. So what is the solution? Let him go free? It's/he's too old? H- he doesn't/he's sorry? W- what do you think? You know, how do you/how do you let that guy go free?

Rick Strassman 1:05:03 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Even though he's 101 years old. Like, what is the answer there?

Rick Strassman 1:05:07 I/ I think he would have to repent.

Joe Rogan 1:05:09 How could you repent from that?

Rick Strassman 1:05:11 Uh, he would need to make restitution to the extent that he could to people that he's caused mis- uh, suffering to.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 Oh, man. I mean-

Rick Strassman 1:05:22 What/what kind of restitution could he make them?

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 What could he do for 3,500 people?

Rick Strassman 1:05:26 Yeah. Well, maybe he could tell the truth.

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 It just freaks me out that that's inside of the last 100 years. It's so recent.

Rick Strassman 1:05:36 It's really recent, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Civilization is such a new thing. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 1:05:42 (laughs) Well, th- you know, uh, h- you know, civilization's a new thing. Anti-Semitism isn't.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 No.

Rick Strassman 1:05:50 And anti-Semitism, boy, it goes way back.

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 It's/that's a pretty old one.

Rick Strassman 1:05:54 It's/it's the world's oldest hatred is the way I've heard it ex-, uh, described.

Joe Rogan 1:06:00 You want some coffee?

Rick Strassman 1:06:01 Yeah. Some coffee would be great, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 So we were talking about the difficult road/road that it/it took. Cheers, sir. Thanks for being here, man.

Rick Strassman 1:06:10 Cheers. Yeah. Thanks.

Joe Rogan 1:06:11 It was very fun for me.

Rick Strassman 1:06:12 Very nice.

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 We were talking about, like, you, um, you/you had this idea and then the/the long road to actually getting it passed. We definitely don't want to s- skip over that.

Rick Strassman 1:06:27 Well, I spent a lot of time training. Um, you know, I went to medical school, my residency, uh, f- um, fellowship, and then the, you know, two-year pro-, uh, me- melatonin project w- was also under training funds, so ... I/ I/ I stopped, you know, training officially when I was y- 35, maybe 36. I was on, you know, training funds until that time. Yeah. You know, so we discovered that there wasn't much, uh, psycho activity that was associated with melatonin. And in the meantime, I had learned about DMT, you know, that it's made in the body. It's incredibly psychedelic. I smoke DMT. Uh, then, you know, the melatonin work was kind of taking me into places that weren't all that interesting, so I/ I switched fields, um, and f- figured, well, it's/it's, you know, now or never.... I'm in my s- I'm in my 30s, I've got a good appointment at the university, I've got the support of the research unit, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 Did you approach them with this idea?

Rick Strassman 1:07:25 I did. I spoke to my, you know, two bosses, um, in psychiatry and on the research unit. And they said, you know, "Get grants and publish and stay out of the newspaper." You know, th- you know, those were three bits of advice I got. They, you know, said, "You know what you're doing, so just go ahead and do it and you- you see what happens."

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Mm.

Rick Strassman 1:07:48 Uh, I got support, uh, you know, from the university. Well, you know, this was, you know, 1986, 1987, and, uh, people really didn't know about psychedelics at that point. You- th- they had become forgotten. Uh, they weren't b- being taught in medical school anymore, there was no research going on for 15, 20 years. You know, so, you know, even after I began my study, the research unit director used to joke that people in their study room were smoking mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 1:08:19 Y- e- so he didn't really know what I was doing. He just wanted (laughs) me to stay out of trouble and succeed.

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 How bizarre is it to you knowing that research on the mind never stopped, but researchers' research on one of the weirdest things you could do to the mind stopped? And it didn't just stop for a li- a little bit, it s- stopped for how long? 15, 20 years?

Rick Strassman 1:08:41 20 years-

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 20 years.

Rick Strassman 1:08:42 ... pretty much. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 That seems insane, doesn't it, that they wouldn't want to study one of the most profound experiences that's available to human beings?

Rick Strassman 1:08:50 Well, it's important to think of some context, you know, too. You- you know, things were just going crazy with kids taking way too much LSD in the wrong set of circumstances without any preparation. Y- and it was a public health emergency. Emergency rooms and psychiatric units were being filled up. You know, so the government had to do something, you know, from the public health point of view at the very least, which was to make it harder for kids to get their hands on psychedelics. I think that notion that there was a desire to quash understanding what the drugs were doing to people, like in a scientific manner, I- I don't think, you know, that was ever the case. I think it was more that nobody really wanted to, you know, challenge, you know, the government and submit a really good study that you can back up with safety mechanisms built into place. Y- you know, once I got my funding and my- my permits, which was a long process, it took two years, y- you know, the government was super keen on my studies. They were very interested in what we were doing, w- what, uh, that we were finding.

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 When you say the government, like what branch of the government?

Rick Strassman 1:10:04 Um, mostly the National Institute on, uh, o- o- among Drug Abuse, NIDA, uh, one of the divisions of the National Institutes of Health. You know, they were funding me. Oh, oh, this is cool too. The first grant I got was from the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenia Research. It's a-

Joe Rogan 1:10:25 Ooh.

Rick Strassman 1:10:25 ... it's a branch of the Masons.

Joe Rogan 1:10:27 Wow.

Rick Strassman 1:10:27 Very interesting. And, you know, the Masons have a lot of iconography with a pineal-

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 1:10:32 ... and pinecones. So, I mean, that was pretty creepy.

Joe Rogan 1:10:36 That is creepy.

Rick Strassman 1:10:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:37 People get freaked out by Masons. They just... The... I mean, without knowing much about it, you hear that someone's a Mason, you're like, "Oh, boy."

Rick Strassman 1:10:46 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:10:46 What does that mean?

Rick Strassman 1:10:47 Well, and they were the first funders of my research, which I thought was, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 See, all the Illuminati people are gonna go crazy now.

Rick Strassman 1:10:54 ... e-

Joe Rogan 1:10:54 All the- the real conspiracy theory people, "Oh-"

Rick Strassman 1:10:57 I- i- i-

Joe Rogan 1:10:57 "... he's captured by the government."

Rick Strassman 1:10:59 I- it was a strange coincidence.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 That doesn't sound like a strange coincidence.

Rick Strassman 1:11:03 Um, well, there's a more mundane explanation.

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 Okay.

Rick Strassman 1:11:06 Um, one of my mentors... Well, maybe, you know, it doesn't help clarify things, it may make it more complex, but-

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 (laughs)

Rick Strassman 1:11:15 ... (laughs) uh, one of my mentors was a psychiatrist at UCLA, a fellow named, uh, Dr. Friedman. And, uh, y- we got to know each other, uh, back in the day. In th- in the '50s actually, he was giving LSD at the NIH. And, uh, I, you know, met him, and he supported my- my work, and he, uh, was on a committee, the f- the f- the, you know, granting committee, you know, for the Scottish Rite Foundation for Schizophrenia Research. And he said, "If you could, uh, submit a grant to them that focuses on DMT and- and schizophrenia, uh, you'll most likely get funded."

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 Oh.

Rick Strassman 1:11:52 And- and I did. You know, so it- it was at least ostensibly from the schizophrenia point of view.

Joe Rogan 1:11:57 Mm.

Rick Strassman 1:11:58 But still, uh, the, you know, s- the, uh, source of the money and the interest, uh, came from the Masons.

Joe Rogan 1:12:04 That's wild. There's a... This is another subject that I wanted to talk to you about. Um, there's certain religions that had an exemption for using, uh, DMT, and there's Christian religions in America, right? There's- there's, like, two different sects of Christianity that are allowed to take, like, an ayahuasca-

Rick Strassman 1:12:28 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:12:29 ... drink.

Rick Strassman 1:12:29 Yeah, yeah. There's a-

Joe Rogan 1:12:30 How did that happen?

Rick Strassman 1:12:31 There's a group called the UDV, and one called the Santo Daime. They're both based from Brazil. They both originated there.

Joe Rogan 1:12:38 And so these folks, they went and they got religious exemption? How did- how did that go down?

Rick Strassman 1:12:45 Um, well, the... Well, let me s- let- let me think this through. Um, y- well, in the early '90s, when I had just got my DMT study off the ground, I met the leader of the UDV, uh, a Anglo fellow, Jeff Free, uh, and Bronfman from Santa Fe was, uh, the n- uh, North American, you know, representative of the UDV. And he asked me about what their strategy ought to be to, uh, be able to drink ayahuasca. So I advised-... you know, taking care of all your permits, you know, kind of the way I did it. Just, you know, fill out the forms and, you know, talk to their regulators. And after a while, you know, if you stick with it, chances are good they'll give you permission. Or you could wait to be caught and then, you know, take it to court. Um, in which case you would at least be, you know, getting the experiences underway. The church would be established. You would have a track record of safety. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:51 Yeah. But that sounds like a terrible idea. I would definitely say try to get the opinions in.

Rick Strassman 1:13:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:13:55 Or, uh, r- rather permissions in.

Rick Strassman 1:13:57 Mm-hmm. Well, and, well, so that's what happened is, you know, they got s- uh, you know, they were discovered importing ayahuasca, which they had been, you know, doing for, I don't know, three, four years or so. Y- yeah. And f- you know, so they took it to court.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 So they got caught with it?

Rick Strassman 1:14:13 Th- they got caught with it. Uh, you know, you have to, you know, think about it though because it may have taken them years to do.

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 Right. I get it. That makes sense.

Rick Strassman 1:14:21 And they may never have gotten approval.

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 So is it possible for them to grow the stuff they need to make ayahuasca here?

Rick Strassman 1:14:30 Y-

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 D- do, do those things have to be grown in other climates or can they be grown here?

Rick Strassman 1:14:34 Uh, you can grow the plants in either Hawaii or Florida.

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 Right. I knew people grew them in Hawaii. I didn't know Florida. Interesting. So, if Florida opened it up, they could have ayahuasca plantations.

Rick Strassman 1:14:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 And just, I mean, that tropical environment down there.

Rick Strassman 1:14:57 Well, I mean, you'd have to work out, you know, the regulatory and the organizational structure, kind of like they're doing in Oregon, which it seems like it's kind of halting. Are you familiar with what's, what they're doing in Oregon?

Joe Rogan 1:15:09 In Oregon, they seem to be decriminalizing basically everything.

Rick Strassman 1:15:14 Right. Uh, well, they've legalized, uh, you know, psilocybin, which means that the state's getting involved in a board and s- you know, certifying-

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 Really?

Rick Strassman 1:15:22 ... locations.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 So, they legalized it for recreational use or medicinal use?

Rick Strassman 1:15:27 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 Like do you have to have a prescription? Or d-

Rick Strassman 1:15:29 No. No.

Joe Rogan 1:15:30 No.

Rick Strassman 1:15:30 E- they're going to be setting up psilocybin, s- you know, centers.

Joe Rogan 1:15:34 Holy shit.

Rick Strassman 1:15:36 Dispensaries.

Joe Rogan 1:15:37 Wow.

Rick Strassman 1:15:37 And, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:15:38 That's wild.

Rick Strassman 1:15:39 And you could be a certified s- you know, psilocybin sitter.

Joe Rogan 1:15:42 I wish Portland wasn't such a hot mess.

Rick Strassman 1:15:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:47 (laughs) Portland's such a hot mess. That city's such a hot mess.

Rick Strassman 1:15:51 Well, the smaller counties in Oregon, uh, have got the right, uh, you know, to ban, uh, you know, psilocybin and, uh, they're doing it. And so fewer and fewer, you know, counties seem interested and-

Joe Rogan 1:16:04 Interesting.

Rick Strassman 1:16:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:05 So it's passed statewide. You're gonna have to find some county that's gonna give you the green light and that's where people are gonna start growing their stuff. It's gonna come with a lot of problems. You know, like one of the problems that happened with, uh, marijuana was the f- the early days, banks didn't want to get involved. They wouldn't, uh, allow people to use credit cards 'cause y- they w- they didn't want to be connected to that. So the people were... had giant wads of cash and they were hiring these, uh, special forces guys to like take their cash-

Rick Strassman 1:16:37 Smelling from pot.

Joe Rogan 1:16:38 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:16:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:39 Stinking of pot. You know, and they're, the o- the whole thing was really s- sketchy 'cause everybody knew you're leaving that spot with bags of cash.

Rick Strassman 1:16:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:16:49 Like everyone knew you have cash there. And so you have to really worry about getting robbed and killed. (laughs)

Rick Strassman 1:16:54 Yeah. It's interesting to, you know, follow what's happening in Oregon. It's supposed to all be in place by January 1st.

Joe Rogan 1:17:01 That's gonna be wild. It's gonna be wild.

Rick Strassman 1:17:03 I think there'll be some problems.

Joe Rogan 1:17:06 Yeah. Well, for sure. That's the problem if it happens, um, you know, if it happens federally. If, if some, some wacky president decided to let all the psychedelics free, we're gonna have a lot of people lose their fucking marbles. The question is, aren't we already? And how much of a difference would it be? And would it be a difference or would those people have already lost their marbles? There's a lot of questions, I guess.

Rick Strassman 1:17:31 Yeah. Well, you have to educate people-

Joe Rogan 1:17:33 Right.

Rick Strassman 1:17:33 ... in the best way to trip.

Joe Rogan 1:17:36 And they maybe should have some research in how to help people that have had bad trips.

Rick Strassman 1:17:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:17:43 Maybe there's like a good cocktail of medications to fucking bring you back to Earth.

Rick Strassman 1:17:50 Yeah. Yeah. Like if it's a bad t- if it's a bad experience, you know, traumatic.

Joe Rogan 1:17:55 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 1:17:55 It's like PTSD in a way.

Joe Rogan 1:17:57 Some people have really bad ones and they freak out and they, they don't know what to do and then they get elevated anxiety and it sort of cascades.

Rick Strassman 1:18:06 You've seen that?

Joe Rogan 1:18:06 Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:18:08 Yeah. Yeah, I think we're gonna just be seeing more of that.

Joe Rogan 1:18:10 Yeah. Look, I had one DMT trip that was, it was... I think we did it three times in an, in an, in an afternoon. And I had, uh, the last one was really, really, really powerful. And I had like a very slippery grip on reality for like two weeks after that.

Rick Strassman 1:18:26 Th- that can happen.

Joe Rogan 1:18:27 Yeah, that's how I describe it, as like slippery. Like, uh, I was doing everything normal, I was driving to work normal. I was doing it, but everything felt slippery, like everything can go wrong at any second.

Rick Strassman 1:18:39 Slippery is a good term. Well, y- you know, that happened to me after my first, you know, 5-methoxy-DMT experience.

Joe Rogan 1:18:46 Yeah.

Rick Strassman 1:18:46 F- for about, you know, three days, I just didn't really feel like I was in my body, that I was really kind of interacting with things in a coherent manner.

Joe Rogan 1:18:56 That stuff is interesting. I'm in- in... I really want to know your thoughts on that stuff 'cause that's a weird, um, experience in that it, it seems like you just go away.

Rick Strassman 1:19:06 Yeah. Yeah. You do go away. And even though people seem to be talking it up, I'm not sure if going away is that good a thing.

Joe Rogan 1:19:14 I want to explain that to, to people who don't know what we're talking about. When I mean go away, I mean it feels like you're dying and then it also feels like you don't exist anymore. So you don't have any thoughts while you're over there. It's we- it's the weirdest experience. It's all white.

Rick Strassman 1:19:28 It's, uh, just this White Out.

Joe Rogan 1:19:30 Yeah, it's like this full White Out, but-... it's somehow cleansing. Like, you come out of there, like, lighter.

Rick Strassman 1:19:37 Oh, it's- it's like being in the center of the sun.

Joe Rogan 1:19:40 Yeah. There's something about when you come back, you feel like everything's gonna be fine.

Rick Strassman 1:19:45 (laughs) Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:19:46 You know? Like, it's so wild in the beginning and so terrifying when you first enter into it.

Rick Strassman 1:19:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:19:52 But then when you come out of it, you're so happy you did it.

Rick Strassman 1:19:54 Well, I think that's a concern, is that you feel so good after you've come through and you want to replicate that.

Joe Rogan 1:20:01 Right.

Rick Strassman 1:20:02 I've seen people use 5-Methoxy addictively, you know, habitually. They just wanna get back to that state over and over, and you don't really see that very often with DMT. DMT itself has so much information.

Joe Rogan 1:20:15 There's a dude I knew, uh, who, uh, he went so many times, he was doing it so often, that he said the entities started telling him to stop coming.

Rick Strassman 1:20:25 (gulps) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:25 He was doing DMT, like, every day.

Rick Strassman 1:20:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20:28 I'm like, "Hey, man." (laughs) "That seems like, that seems like a lot."

Rick Strassman 1:20:32 Well, do you think it was the entities telling him to stop it, or that it was, you know, just his mind saying, you know, "You're- you're- you're- you're killing me. I mean, let's take a break."

Joe Rogan 1:20:41 Yeah, I mean, the- or what are those thing- what is your mind, right? What did- your mind- is- is your mind an individual thing or is it something that constantly changes depending upon what it interacts with? And are those entities that are telling you to stop doing it, uh, do they live in your mind? Does your mind live where they live?

Rick Strassman 1:20:59 Yes, I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:21:00 Yeah. (laughs) But either way, this, this whole, uh, thing of he, he was having a real problem with it. Like, he, uh, he- the experience was so profound, he just wanted to recreate it over and over and over and over and over again.

Rick Strassman 1:21:14 Um, w- you know, when I get emails from people who start sounding like they're just about ready to, like, lose it-

Joe Rogan 1:21:22 Mm-hmm.

Rick Strassman 1:21:22 ... because they're smoking so much DMT, and, you know, they want my advice and, you know, support and, you know, confirmation of their funny ideas, and I just say, "Stop smoking DMT." That's what I'd recommend.

Joe Rogan 1:21:35 You don't need to do it that often.

Rick Strassman 1:21:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:37 That's- the one slippery one that I had, I've had it since then, but that one slippery one was a- that was a little bit of a wake-up call, 'cause like, "Hey, cocky fuckface. You think you've got a great grip on reality? Why don't you just, like, e- enter into other dimensions for a couple hours and then come back?" And now you feel weird about everything, like, a- for two weeks. Took two weeks to feel normal driving.

Rick Strassman 1:22:04 Yeah, yeah. Well, did you get help?

Joe Rogan 1:22:07 Nope, nope. Just worked out.

Rick Strassman 1:22:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:22:10 (laughs) I worked out, uh, laid in the float tank quite a bit.

Rick Strassman 1:22:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:22:14 I mean, it wasn't scary, but it was next-door-neighbors to scary.

Rick Strassman 1:22:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:22:19 It was, it was like, "If I have to go through life with