EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,316 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- NANarrator
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) So, Mike, how fucked are we?
- MBMike Baker
Oh, um, well ...
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MBMike Baker
Let's say, let's say we're fucked. Um, (sighs) yeah. I mean, it depends on where you wanna start. There's, there's so many interesting things, right? I, I, and I will say, right off the bat, I didn't, I didn't have, uh, monkeypox, uh, on my bingo card, um. I didn't-
- JRJoe Rogan
It doesn't seem-
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to be that big of an issue. Even when people get it, they don't die, they just get blisters and then it heals up and then they're good.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah, and then they're fine. And it-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not good.
- MBMike Baker
(laughs) But it's not, it's not good.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's also could be avoided if you have, don't have a lot of unprotected gay sex.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems-
- MBMike Baker
Unfortunately, I, I said the other, uh, what? A month ago, I made the mistake of saying that, "Just don't, don't, don't have a lot of unprotected random sex, uh, at a rave or don't fuck monkeys." And apparently, people took offense at that.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think anybody's fucking monkeys. So-
- MBMike Baker
So when-
- JRJoe Rogan
They probably are. There's probably like one guy out there.
- MBMike Baker
There was one guy. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
But I don't think that's what's causing it. I think it's just-
- MBMike Baker
Patient Zero.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's just the name of it, right? It's-
- MBMike Baker
Yeah, it is, yeah. But to tell you what kind of world we live in, now what they wanna do is change the name because they think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MBMike Baker
... the name is a, is what?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's offensive to gay people in some s- strange way. B- they wanna call it like a number or like, you know, ATX124.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Some nonsense. Just it's already monkeypox.
- MBMike Baker
It's monkeypox. Everybody's gonna notice monkeyp- remember when it was the, uh, when COVID was the Wuhan flu-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 15:00 – 30:00
There's also some talk…
- MBMike Baker
says. So when they talk about Taiwan, they mean that. When they talk about, you know, getting to the top of the food chain, uh, in a variety of areas, whether it's pharmaceuticals, technology, uh, telecommunications, shipping, oil and gas, that's what they're going to do, which is why they've been so intent over the years, uh, to hoover up or steal every bit of intellectual property, um, and intelligence as they can. Because that's how they're meeting those goals.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's also some talk about them buying US farmland. Uh-
- MBMike Baker
Oh, yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Someone just brought this up to me the other day that they just bought an enormous farm somewhere in the middle of America, and their number one priority is feeding China.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah, yeah. Um, they've been doing all sorts of, uh, we, we could, we could literally, we could, we could literally sit here-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause that's like-
- MBMike Baker
... all day long talking about what they've been up to. Um, but, but you're right. Um, the Bureau, Bureau had a great report, um, not that long ago. Um, they, it was culmination of a years of investigation. And one of the interesting things that they were doing was looking at the financial side of things. Uh, rather than kind of thinking of individual, uh, counterintelligence operations, they started looking at Chinese companies, whether they were state owned or whether they were just, you know, theoretically private, but they had two or three cutouts between them and the state. And they were looking at their deals and they were saying, "Well, why would they do this?" And, and if it's a, if it's a private company that's out there to make money and to become successful or be successful, to grow, why would they be making deals that seem not profitable? What, what's the point of that exercise? And so aside from just acquiring assets, and China's o- over the years has acquired a massive amount of, of property and other assets here in the US and around the world, is the idea that ... Uh, it's a very clever part of their investigation from a Bureau perspective, is to say, all right, let's look at a Chinese company, uh, like ZTE or Huawei, and let's try to understand why would they possibly be, um, giving away their products basically at dirt cheap prices. Uh, why would they be interested in, in, in acquiring land in a particular area? Why would they want to work with a particular regional telecoms provider here in the US? And when you do that, their activity becomes pretty clear. Even to people who are skeptics, it becomes pretty obvious that ... I mean, look, just Huawei alone, they've (laughs) over the years, I mean, going back to 2000 and before that, Huawei is as a, as a telecoms company started in '87, and they're now the largest, uh, producer of telecoms gear in the world. I mean, they do all the plumbing, right? They do the antennas, they do the routers, they do the servers. They ... You look at a cell tower now anywhere in the Midwest or out no-, uh, out west, uh, anywhere, and it's likely got Huawei or ZTE or other Chinese components on that cell tower. And one of the reports that the Bureau came out with, um, after a lengthy, uh, investigation is fascinating. And, um, I, uh, I'm pretty sure you've s- ... Yeah, you've seen this report that, that did the, that you look at the, um, I-25 corridor.It goes up, uh, uh, Wyoming, uh, Colorado, that area, along the border of Nebraska. They did a deal with a, a regional telecoms provider out there, Veiro, I think it was. And they now have their, over the years, they've put their equipment, Huawei has, onto these cell towers that go up and down this corridor. Well, the other thing that's up and down this corridor are a variety of military bases, and an enormous number of ICBM sites for our, (laughs) our nuke program, right? So, the idea that China was just m-... you know, willingly giving, at vastly discounted prices, uh, their gear to a regional provider in the, in, (laughs) in part of the US where we have an enormous number of ICBM sites. I don't know. It could be a coincidence.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MBMike Baker
But I, it's, it's, it's, it's a perfect example of what they do and, and how they're willing to, to invest state resources, and how smart they are at, at long-term targeting, and understanding, "I want to know about this. That's where the information is. I'm gonna get access to it, and I don't care whether it takes me 10, 20, 30 years."
- JRJoe Rogan
So we're having this conversation and you're explaining this to me. I would imagine that if I was a person in, in a position of power and government, I would want to stop this from happening. So how did it ever happen?
- MBMike Baker
Um, well, it, uh, i- i- it wasn't really noticed. It wasn't. Nobody-
- JRJoe Rogan
What?
- MBMike Baker
Yeah, it wasn't. I mean, it... It's been a thing for a handful of years. When you think about it, if you think about Huawei has been doing this for, um... I mean, look, the... we could talk about what they did up in Canada too, to, uh, one of the world's biggest companies up in Canada in telecoms, um, at roughly the same time, but anyway. Uh, a couple of years ago, what are we? We're in 2022 now. So a couple of years ago, when they released this information, when they finished their investigation and they looked and they said, "This is bullshit," right? We've got... Because one of the things about this equipment that's sitting on these cell towers is people will say, "Well, who cares? It's telecoms, you know, it's, it's my mobile phone. I don't care if the Chinese, you know, regime listens into my mobile phone." Well, the PLA's Third Department and their First Technical Reconnaissance Bureau and other parts of the Chinese machine that, that hoovers up all this information that's related to our national security interests, they're not just going after (laughs) you know, commercial cellphone signals. This part of this investigation was to break down this equipment and try to understand, okay, wait a minute, could this be going after the DoD spectrum, the, the, uh, bandwidth that the military would use? And if so, what does that mean? Uh, could they intercept communications? Yes, according to the investigation. And could they interfere with our communication? So not just hoover up data packets that are going across this, but also i-... imagine if we're trying to send communications, things get really hot, they go after Taiwan, suddenly we're going on high alert. They could, they could either intercept or, um, or, uh, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Block?
- MBMike Baker
Block, jam. I'm having a, uh, senior moment. Um, communications trying to get f- through on those, uh, capabilities. And so, it's a big, it's a big deal, um, but once it, once the investigation came out, then people did start to pay attention. But this is how the, the, how slow the US government can be. Um, in, uh, in nineteen, uh, 2019 and 2020, basically what happened was, to, uh, to oversimplify this, was once that it became clear what was going on and what, what the Chinese regime was doing, uh, using Chinese telecoms providers, um, to do this. The US government said, "Okay, that's it. We gotta take all this gear off these cell towers," right? These are regional providers, right? That, in these areas, 'cause they... What the Chinese were very smart about was looking at our military bases, seeing how many of them were out in the rural parts of America, identifying who the regional providers are and saying, "We can sell you this gear for nothing. How about that?"
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MBMike Baker
And over the years, the regional providers would be like, "Great. Fine." Because they're not thinking. You got some guy running some regional telecoms company, he's not a, a counterintelligence specialist.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's just working on his bottom line.
- MBMike Baker
He's just working on his bottom line. He said, "This is a great deal." So they load up all these towers. So anyway, the US government said, "You gotta take all this gear off, right? You gotta remove all this shit (laughs) and we've got to replace it with, with trusted gear." And, and by the way, Huawei is on a trade list, um, as is ZTE and others, uh, at this point, um, so we can't... Going forward, uh, companies aren't en-... using their gear. But you've got all this stuff sitting up there anyway, right? And every time you need to do an update, right, uh, one of the weaknesses on some of this gear is you gotta, you know, uh, basically hit it with new software, with an update. And anytime you do that, that's a pathway perhaps for them to do something else. And so they said, "Take all this gear off. We're going to allocate, as US government, we're gonna allocate, uh, just shy of $2 billion to do this." And, uh, none of the gear has moved. This was 2020. Two years later, none of the gear has been moved because all the companies, they said, "Okay, shit, we'll make a list of all the stuff that's gotta come off of there," and they did, and you're talking about, you know, 20 some odd thousand pieces of equipment that need to be pulled off of cell towers that, you know, are compromising or potentially compromising, uh, US national interests. And they said, "Well, we can't do this for $1.9 billion. It's gonna cost us twice that at least, which means it'll cost us probably three times that." And so nothing's been done. None of the gear has been removed. Um, now the US government is saying, "Well, okay, maybe we can partially reimburse you." Well, you're talking about companies that, as you point out, are trying to, you know, improve their bottom line, they're trying to make money, so they're gonna get partially reimbursed for taking this gear off.... right? Because the US government is, is so slow in, in... The Commerce Department started an investigation in 2021. They still haven't finished it, about the same issue. So, I don't want to sound cynical, but A: I'm- I'm- I'm very happy that the bureau, through some very good investigative, you know, efforts, uh, has highlighted this and it's important to be talking about this. Thank God it's- it's- they're- we're getting better at talking about it. But nothing's been done and it, so the same problem exists. So, it's kind of like when you go in and you talk... I remember 15 years ago, I would go in, I would give a talk on Chinese espionage. You know, that's how long I've been kicking this horse in the ass. And people would just roll their eyes. And it still kind of happens, because they'll look and they'll go, "Ah, you- you know, yeah, that's bullshit. You're being xenophobic." Or, "Well, we do it too." That's always a- my- one of my favorite arguments.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MBMike Baker
People say, "Well, the US does it too." And (laughs) like, what the fuck? What kind of argument is that, right? So, it's- it's- it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, let 'em?
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, just let 'em spy?
- MBMike Baker
Just let 'em. Yeah, it'll be fine. You know, we'll just all do it. And, uh, so anyway, I... That- that's- that's the, that's one of the more interesting, uh, parts of this. But I mean, they're just... The- the shit that they're doing. They did the same thing up in- in, uh, Canada back in- in- in 2000. They infiltrated a company called, uh, Nor- Nortel. And Nortel was one of the largest companies in the world. Super successful, right? Based out of, I forget where. Ottawa, maybe, in Canada. And, uh, Nortel went bankrupt, in part because they had, you know, they had some bullshit, uh, business decisions made. But in part because Huawei and- and others, uh, out of China just started hoovering up and stealing all their shit. Getting everything. I mean, look, this- this problem... I- I know I- I sound like I'm rambling, but you could go back 10 years ago, and in one estimate, a- a legit estimate of the cost to us, right? From economic espionage and the theft of intellectual property, by not just China, but Russia, Iran, North Korea, any bad actor. The theft, the cost of that in one year, at that time, 10 years ago, was $500 billion-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MBMike Baker
... in terms of blueprints and- and technical information and the... And- and- and then you- then you factor in lost jobs, right? Because when they're stealing information to advance themselves, what they're also doing is kicking us in the ass and we're losing jobs, right? And we're losing... And companies are shutting down or- or not making money. So, it's a, it's- it's a problem. I know I bang on about it a lot, but...
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like it's worth banging on about.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
This Nortel company. So, what did they steal from them?
- 30:00 – 45:00
Yeah. …
- MBMike Baker
don't imagine it's that big a deal. So... Or they don't see the evidence, and I guess maybe that's part of the biggest problem, is because of what it is, because you gather some of this informa- it- you can't talk about sources and methods or whatever. You don't just throw everything out there on the table and say, "Look, here's the evidence that Huawei or, um, or the Third Department of the PLA or whoever is- is doing all this activity, and this is what it's costing us, and this is how we know." You can't do that in intelligence operations. But I think we need to make... We need to figure out a way to make an exception to that in this case, because...... that's what will get people on side, right? That's what'll get people to be believers in all this, is if you give them more evidence. Right? It's like UFOs. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MBMike Baker
If, if somebody actually talked about it, gave you a piece of evidence, and you go, "Okay, yeah, maybe it is so." But it's just ... I- i- it's, it's a, it's a tough line to walk. The Bureau's getting better at it, but, um, I think we need to be more transparent in explaining how we know some of these things, to the degree that we can. And then there will be limitations. But we don't do enough of it. But the more we talk about it, again, it's not gonna change the Chinese regime's behavior, 'cause this is how they envision, and it's worked so far, getting to the top of the food chain. But we gotta do something.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, has there been a company in the United States that's been infiltrated the way Nortel was?
- MBMike Baker
Oh, sure. I mean, uh, w- whether you're talking about ... Uh, well not t- ... I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
T-
- MBMike Baker
Nortel was an interesting case, because it, it ... Now it's bankrupt. Interesting enough, it went into bankruptcy. They sold all their gear as part of an effort to raise funds, right? So they sold all this gear. A lot of it, who knows?
- JRJoe Rogan
Filled with malware.
- MBMike Baker
Filled with malware. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's gonna go to some other company.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah. Hey.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Hey, we got a deal."
- MBMike Baker
Yeah. Terrific. Look at this.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then all of a sudden-
- MBMike Baker
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... China just picks up a new signal.
- MBMike Baker
(laughs) So-
- JRJoe Rogan
"Oh, look."
- MBMike Baker
But yeah, whether it's Google, uh, you know, GE. I mean, recent cases, GE, whether it's, it's ... Th- th- there's ... Y- you know, there's, there's no, um ... When y- when you look at what do they go after, I guess part of it you could look at when they talk about every five year plan and they talk about where it's most important, you could probably correlate that to then where their real collection efforts are going to be. Right? Uh, it's gonna be in oil and gas. It's gonna be in, um ... It's gonna be in, in shipping. It's, uh, wherever it's gonna be. And you can pretty much assume then you're gonna see an increase in cyber shenanigans in those sectors. Right? So, but they, they ... You know, they've, they've gone after pretty much anything. Right? They went af- ... They ... All the various cases, they went after a small company years ago. I'm trying to remember. (sighs) It was in Salt Lake City, Utah. Uh, I forget what they ... It was called ibon or something. It was a ... On the face of it, it was just a company that, um, worked in the entertain- ... Or not the entertainment. In the hospitality business. Right? And you think, "Well, why would they hack into a business that does hospitality work and hotel chains and everything?" Well, because what do you have at hotel chains? You have conferences and you have, you know, gatherings of business people and everything. And so what they (laughs) were doing was they figured out how to in- ... Get through ibon, and then get into the communications of you're sitting in a conference room. Right? You're listening to some speaker up there talk about, um, you know, whatever it is. Um, you know, laser technology or, or, uh, it doesn't really matter. And you know, you're bored, so you say, "Well, shit, I forgot to call Bob. You know, I'll send him an email." Well, they had managed to figure out if we get into ibon and we get into the way that they had connected with the various hospitality groups to help handle communications, right? For, you know, conferences and events, that they could pick up all that email traffic. So next thing you know, you got, you know, somebody emailing their boss back home talking about, you know, something proprietary. And it sounds odd, but it's very effective. So, I guess my point being is they don't ... Whether it's that, whether it's going after a, a pigment formula for, uh, creating a new type of pigment at DuPont, they don't th- ... They don't care. They'll just ... They'll go after this stuff, and then they'll feed it to their, their businesses. And people ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MBMike Baker
Huawei is a good example. People say, "Well, I mean ..." 'Cause look, Huawei's ... You know, they got a lot of employees here in the, in the States. And they've said for decades, "We have no connection. We're not involved with the, the Chinese government. We don't do any of this. All our telecomms gear has been checked out by the FCC." Um, if the Chinese regime goes to Huawei and says, "We want your cooperation on something," they'll provide that cooperation.
- JRJoe Rogan
100%.
- MBMike Baker
100%. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
They have to.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's not like they go ... What do they push back and go, "Nah, it's okay." (laughs) "We don't, we don't wanna do that. We wanna play by the book."
- JRJoe Rogan
I remember when-
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the Huawei stuff was going on, there were some tech sites that were very dubious about it, and they, they were saying that Trump is, uh, overstepping, and this is a terrible idea. There's nothing wrong with Huawei. And I re- ... I remember reading this, uh, and th- and they're coming from a tech perspective, you know?
- MBMike Baker
Mm-hmm. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're just saying like, "This is innovative gear, and they make great stuff." And ... But it's, it's bizarre that they don't get informed before they make these articles.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Yeah. Sort of. …
- MBMike Baker
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Sort of.
- NANarrator
Oh, okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was ... Is that it right there?
- NANarrator
I'm just checking to see if there's something else that could be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
(music playing) Welcome back to- Daytona. ... But they broke the rules. Dodge.
- NANarrator
I do not think it's in that.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, but I guaran- I know it's available.
- NANarrator
I think so. Each, each headline says it has it, and ... There you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
It definitely has.
- NANarrator
Yeah, I don't think this is it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- NANarrator
Oh, my God. Bro, that is amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
(car revving) That's the sound.
- NANarrator
Hmm. (laughs) That is sick. What? Might've been that.
- MBMike Baker
Not sure how I feel about that. Oh, there you go.
- NANarrator
The, the clear roof and everything. That's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fake.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MBMike Baker
It's like a-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fake sound. At least Porsche, when they, they have the Taycan, the electric one, it makes jets and noises.
- MBMike Baker
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
When you ... Have you heard that?
- MBMike Baker
No. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It goes ... (imitates engine revving)
- MBMike Baker
See, I would like that. I, I, I think that would be more entertaining than trying to mimic the actual-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MBMike Baker
... sound of an engine.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause then you're lying-
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
What, what did we…
- MBMike Baker
president for life basically, king for life. And so I, I think it's, um, it's, it's an inv- inevitable conflict that I don't know that we've really thought through. 'Cause we don't understand how they're capable of... The Chinese military is capable of integrating all their various elements. China hasn't been at war for a long time, right? In, in real terms. You know, we... You know, we saw, uh, Russia, you know, engage in Afghanistan, you know, few, couple decades ago or whatever. Um, we had a sense of what that was gonna look like. Um, we still got it wrong, the assessment. You know, we got it wrong. We got their logistics capabilities wrong, we got their communications capabilities wrong, we, we got it wrong about how they, uh... You know, what, what sort of information was being fed to Putin, um, and how he was basing his assessments. Uh, so there was a lot of mistakes that we're hopefully learning from.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what did we get wrong?
- MBMike Baker
Well, we got... I, I... Part of the, the, the problem we have or had and, ah, still have is, you know, Putin's increasingly small circle of key advisors, right? And so understanding...... who he's paying attention to, and what, what he's... the advice that he's being given and how that then, you know, formulates his actions. And so, I think we, we had a real problem in, uh, assessing his plans and intentions, his motivations. And that's always a tough lift from Intel perspective, right? Um, unless you've got an asset who's right next to him, you know, a key advisor, or you're just, you know, tapping into his internal communications. Uh, so that was one of the things we got wrong. And then we got... we, we, we didn't ver- assess really very well, um, you know, all the... Look, they got everything wrong. They, they couldn't figure out their supply lines, right? Their communications were awful. Their command and control was terrible, which is why they've lost so many generals. Uh, so they, they've, they've had a series of problems. It's even a harder lift to assess China's capabilities right now, because, um, again, in part, they haven't been at war for a long time, and there's more to it, right? They... H- how are they going to integrate all their various military elements? How are they going to use cyber, you know, for this effort if they move on Taiwan? Um, and, you know, I don't want to say we're unprepared 'cause we're not. We always game these things out and we've got lots of scenarios. But I will say that, you know, we're... there's, there's a kind of a rush on to make sure that we're, (laughs) we're up to speed. And so, and because again, we had our resources focused elsewhere. But, you know, I, I, again, to your most important question, which is, how does it all end? Uh, nobody really knows. Do you think that... I mean, if they moved next year, do we think the Biden administration would go to war with China? Or would they say, "Okay, we're going to, we're gonna supply Taiwan. Um, we're not gonna put any boots on the ground. We're not gonna get in direct conflict with China. Um, and we'll sanction China." Well, that's a lot more difficult than it, than it sounds, right? We can sanction Russia, you know, from here till Sunday 'cause we're not really that intertwined. We're very intertwined with, with China right now, uh, from an economic perspective. And so, uh, yeah. I... There's, there's a, there's a lot of questions here as to what could happen. And the ch- and the... Look, the Chinese are... they're doing the same thing on their side of the table. They're trying to figure out, you know, what, what are we gonna do?
- JRJoe Rogan
That whole, uh, make America first thing received a lot of pushback from people, particularly on the left, because they looked at it in terms of like, that that's a nationalistic, xenophobic, problematic perspective.
- MBMike Baker
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I think a lot of people's eyes got woken up. A lot of people's eyes got opened up during the pandemic when we realized how much... what we need just in terms of medication and electronics and chips, how much of it was being produced overseas.
- MBMike Baker
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how little of what we make here is required. I mean, we m- we don't make enough here to run the country.
- MBMike Baker
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
We don't have the manufacturing capabilities that we would need to be completely independent. We're not independent. We need this stuff from a... And that can be changed, but it... that's gonna take a long time.
- MBMike Baker
It's gonna take a long time. It's gonna take a lot of resources, but there's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's gonna... you have to take... get people on board.
- MBMike Baker
There's a, there's a lot of... (sighs) There's so many areas we should be investing money into, and instead of $80 billion into the IRS. (laughs) I don't... I just pulled that one out of my ass.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MBMike Baker
But I just... (laughs) I just... I thought I was thinking about money that the US government invests, and I just remembered that they're pumping $80 billion into the IRS.
- JRJoe Rogan
87,000 new IRS agents.
- MBMike Baker
God.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, you know, and everybody who supports that thinks they're gonna go after those people that aren't paying their fair share, all those rich guys.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the problem is those rich guys have top shelf accountants that are making sure that all the Is are dotted and the Ts are crossed. It's middle class Americans that they're gonna go after. They're gonna go after-
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... people that don't have the resources.
- MBMike Baker
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're gonna go after people that may have, uh, you know, fudged a little here and there, and they're gonna bring those folks down.
- MBMike Baker
Right. And I mean, and, and, and it's interesting because when they first rolled this out, um, much like a lot of things that the, the, the current administration does, and again, not that, not that, uh... you know, there's... they've done some good things, they've done some, some, you know, odd things. But, um, their messaging always seems to be off, right? So they're always kind of batting cleanup. They'll, they'll, they'll do something and the next thing you know, John Kirby or somebody's gotta roll out and explain, "That's not what we meant. This is what we meant." So when they rolled out this, this... the fact that there was $80 billion in there to, to, uh, uh, pump into the IRS and there's 87,000 new (laughs) agents and... Um, they had really no message, right? And so, immediately people were just losing their shit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MBMike Baker
And then, because the Democrats... when that happens, they are very good at then circling the wagons and coming up with a, a narrative, right? And disseminating that out and making sure that everybody pushes that same talking point. And then they stick to that talking point. So the talking point then became, after a few days of, of, uh, terrible, uh, optics on this, was, "Well, the IRS has been underfunded for, you know, years, decades. And because of that, we haven't been able to go after the billionaires, because we, we've... haven't been able to hire all those, you know, really clever agents who can do those sophisticated investigations of the billionaires. And so this is all about refunding the IRS because it's been underfunded. We're gonna improve the technology and we're going to be able to go after those billionaires finally because we'll have enough people." Uh, okay. Um, I'm not buying that. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you think they did it? Why do you think they decided to ramp up and hire 87,000 new IRS agents to tone of... to tune rather of $80 billion?
- MBMike Baker
Yeah. Um, look, uh, because they wanna raise money. They've got, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
But how much can they raise?
- 1:15:00 – 1:15:47
Section 6
- MBMike Baker
about something, right? And that, and so it never ends. To your point, you work 16-hour days. You, I argue you never turn off, right? If we, if we go on a, a, you know, on a holiday somewhere, I'm s- I'm constantly worried about something. Right? And that's just what you do. But I did it, and I left the government to do this because I wanted to have, possibly, unlimited possibilities, right? I wanted a, I didn't want a ceiling, right? I didn't want a cap. And I knew w- working for the government, I always knew what I was gonna make, no matter how well I was doing. And so, I, you know, I do, uh, personally kinda take exception sometimes when people, you know, you know, piss on, you know, people who are doing well, because I don't sometimes think they see the amount of work that, particularly small, you know, medium-sized companies, what, what people put into that, right?
Episode duration: 3:21:16
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Transcript of episode 5_IHM6HI0rs
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