Joe Rogan Experience #1863 - Mark Zuckerberg

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) So, uh, your new Oculus is awesome. It's very impressive.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg0:15

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      It's very cool.

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg0:17

      Coming out in October, um, we're gonna be talking about it at our Connect con- uh, at our Connect, uh, conference that's, that's, uh, that's coming up. Um, yeah, pretty excited about it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      It's, um, it's so interesting, the, the, when you put it on ... So I'll just describe it to people. When I put it on, there was an avatar in front of me and it was an alien woman. And the alien woman, when I moved my mouth, she moved her mouth, when I moved my eyes left and right, she, sh- it's tracking my eyes. When I make, like a angry face, like arrr, it makes an angry face. When you go, like, oh, open your m- it's incredible. It, like, you can see the evolution and the progress of this stuff, where it's getting to the point where it's mimicking human patterns in a, a, a kind of a creepy way.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:02

      (laughs) But it's very cool.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg1:03

       Yeah, so, you know, for me, the stuff is all about, like, helping people connect, right? I mean, the, the way that I got into this is, um, you know, I don't know, I just started thinking about, like, what is the ... Like, what would be the ultimate expression of, of basically people using technology to feel present with each other, right? And it's not phones.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Right.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg1:26

       It's not computers. Like, how do you get this, this sensation of actually being present, like you're right there with another person? And that's, to me, what virtual and eventually augmented reality are all about. And there's just this whole technology roadmap that you, that we basically just need to go run down over the next decade to unlock that. So, for the next, uh, device that's coming out in October, um, you know, the, there are a few big features. I mean, the, the one that you're talking about, um, basically social presence. I mean, the ability to, uh, now have kind of eye contact in virtual reality.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       Mm.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg2:04

       Have your face be tracked, so that way, um, your avatar, it's not just like this still thing, um, but if you smile or if you frown or if you pout or, you know, whatever your expression is, have that actually just in real time translate to your avatar. I mean, that's such a ... Obviously, like, our facial expressions are just a huge, um, that's like a ... You know, there's more non-verbal communication when, when people are, are, are with each other than verbal communication. Uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       You had a really good point too, about, uh, face tracking in like a, if you're doing like a FaceTime call, that you don't look each other in the eye.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg2:35

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Because you're looking at the camera to look in the eye, and then you don't see the person. So if you look at the camera, you're, you know, you're looking up, and if you look at the, you know, look down at the actual screen, you're l- you're, you're not making eye contact with the person. But this is able to recreate actual eye contact-

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg2:52

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       ... with the avatar.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg2:53

       Yeah, no, this will be the, the, the first time really to do that. Um, you know, I mean, when we're using technology today, I mean, it's, it's great to be able to make phone calls and video calls and all that. I mean, if you can't be with someone today, you know, it's nice to be able to see their face. But when you're on a video call, you don't actually feel like you're there with the person, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan3:10

       Right.

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg3:10

       I mean, you get some signal, some information, you can see their face, but, um, the whole time you're, you're kind of trying to convince your brain that you're actually there with them, but your brain knows, right? It's like at a, at kind of like a deep level-

   23. JRJoe Rogan3:24

       Yeah.

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg3:24

       ... that, that's ... You're, you're, you're not actually there with them, you're just getting some information about what they, what they look like. And to me, what, what virtual reality unlocks is it basically really convinces your brain that you're there. I mean, when you're in there, you're, you're, um, you know, you're, you have to basically try to convince your brain that, that this isn't real, right?And that you're not present.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       Yeah.

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg3:48

       So, and there are all these just subtle signals, um, and things that either, that either deepen the illusion or, um, or break it. Um, that, that, you know, each time we, we do a new, a new version, we, we just try to, uh, you know, break down a few more of the barriers, so. And one of the big ones early on ... Well, the, the first one obviously was just like having, having a headset and being able to look around. And for that, one of the key things that ... Your eye basically refreshes, I don't know, call it every five milliseconds or something. So if you turn your head and the image isn't kind of refreshed to where you're looking within five milliseconds, then there's this huge mismatch between your visual system and your vestibular system and your, your kind of balance and your ear. And people used to kind of feel uncomfortable from that, right? Like, 'cause it's like a physical discomfort because it, like, what you were looking at didn't match, um, kind of, uh, uh, as you were rotating your head. So that was kind of the first thing. Then we got hands, and there was this whole thing that was super interesting there where at first we wanted to, you know, display your whole arm, um, which makes sense, right? 'Cause I mean, it's, it's, you'd think, okay, it's a little weird to just see your hand. But it turns out that your, your brain is perfectly willing to just accept seeing your hand without your arm-

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:05

       (laughs)

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg5:06

       ... as long ... Because your hand is the thing that it's trying to manipulate. And as a matter of fact, when, um, if we kind of interpolated and got your arm position wrong, right? So we'd get into these cases where your hands were here and we'd sort of guess that your, your arm was like that or something. And if your arm was actually like that, but we displayed it so that it was in like that, you're like, "Ah, my elbow's broken." Right? Like, it felt like really wrong. So it's, so it's actually much better to show a limited number of signals, but get them right, and then you can just add on over time. So, for previous versions before this, we didn't ... The, the kind of eye contact was all just, um, you know, AI simulated: but we didn't actually know when you were making eye contact because we weren't tracking the eyes. And now for, for this version and, um, hopefully, you know, a lot of the different ones that we build going forward, you'll be able to, you know, have realistic facial expressions and, um, and, and, and more translated directly to your avatar. But there's this whole road map of basically how do you deliver this like real sense of presence like you're there with another person no matter where you actually are?

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       It was very impressive 'cause even when I moved my jaw side to side, went like arrr-

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg6:07

       Yeah.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Really? …

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg15:00

      of Ray-Ban Wayfarers now that, um, that have a microphone and that they have a speaker and they can take photos and take videos-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      Really?

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg15:07

      ... and you can post them to Instagram. Yeah, it's, it's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      They do it on voice command?

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg15:11

      Yep. Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      Oh, so you could say, "Take a photo of this"?

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg15:13

      Yep. Take a photo, take a video, um-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      And what, what kind of image quality are you getting off of these things?

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg15:18

      Um, it's pretty good. It's, um ... I, I want to make sure I don't get the, the spec wrong and I just have all these different numbers in my head because I, I want to make sure I don't confuse it with the new version.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       Is it, like, similar to, like, a selfie camera? Like-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg15:30

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       ... limited in-

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg15:31

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:31

       ... comparison to the back camera?

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg15:32

       Yeah. No. It's not quite as good as the, as the back cameras today, but it's, um ... But yeah. No. It's, it's like, I mean, you look at the, the quality and it's good. Um, and y- and it fits in, like, the corner of a, of glasses.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       Does that bring about privacy concerns if people could just, like, start filming things?

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg15:49

       Yeah. So, I mean, we designed it so it has a light on it, so whenever the-

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Oh.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg15:53

       Yeah. I mean that's, that I think is actually a really important part of this that-

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Well, could you put a piece of tape over the light?

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg15:58

       I, I mean, I guess in theory, but-

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       If you were a creep.

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg16:00

       ... but it's, um ... Yeah, there you go.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       There it is.

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg16:02

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       So that little thing in the corner, is that a highlight or a light?

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg16:06

       Uh, no, that's the light.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       That's the light.

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg16:07

       And it, and it blinks-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Okay.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   It's gonna be a…

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg30:00

      like an asymptote. I don't know if they'll, you know, you'll never be able to do all of the things that you can do, um, kind of in person with a person, but, um, we'll just be able to do more and more. You know, if today it's gaming or hanging out and, you know, over the next few years it'll be working, right? So, hopefully you'll just be able to teleport in and, and basically just show up as a hologram and work remotely and live wherever you want, be with your family, um, wherever they live, um, but just be able to show up in whatever place, um, I think that that's gonna, that's gonna be pretty awesome and I think we'll be able to, to do that pretty well. So-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      It's gonna be a real issue for commercial real estate.

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg30:35

      ... um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:36

      (laughs) There's not gonna be a lot of offices. If that actually becomes, like, as good as having a cell phone in your pocket and being able to make a phone call-

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg30:44

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:44

      ... you could just sort of teleport to work-

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg30:46

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:47

      ... it's gonna be a problem. No one's gonna wanna work.

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg30:50

      Well, that's a different question. I-

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       Mean, whether or not they're gonna-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg30:52

       ... I think-

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:52

       ... physically wanna be there, rather. They'll, they'll, m- maybe they'll wanna work.

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg30:56

       Uh-

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       But they're not gonna wanna go to the office.

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg30:58

       Yeah, I mean, maybe, although I, I think being physically, uh, b- being present with people, feeling a sense of presence is pretty important-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       Yeah.

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg31:05

       ... regardless of where you do it. I mean, I've found, you know, over the last couple of years, the way that stuff, the, the work has been done has changed a huge amount and, you know, it's, there, there are all these things that are sort of complex about the office. But like, I mean, I see people in person almost every day. Uh, sometimes I, I probably do more meetings at my house now than I, than I would have before. Um, but, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I do think that there's... Seeing people in, in, in, in, in person, having that sense of presence makes a big, makes a big difference.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       I think so too, but there's definitely a big pushback now about people going to the office, v- w- wh- uh, rather than working from home. Like, people would rather just do their work from home and they're like, "With the internet connections as they are today-

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg31:49

       Oh, yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:50

       ... and the ability to video conference, like, why do I have to be physically in the building in order to get my work done?"

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg31:54

       Yeah, no, and I agree with that, too. Um, you know, uh, our company is actually pretty forward-leaning on remote work. I mean, just especially some types of work, especially software engineering, you can do pretty well from a lot of different places and if you're an engineer, sometimes it's actually better to not be in the office, because then people aren't bugging you. You kind of want, like, a block of, like, five hours where you can just work on a problem. And if-

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       Hmm.

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg32:17

       ... I don't know. It's like, I have this thing where, you know, it's I'll, I'll be, like, in zone kind of flow concentration working on something and, you know, my wife will, like, ask me some, some, like, basic question and I'll just be like, "Ah, man." It's like I just, like, lost my flow.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       Yep.

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg32:31

       And-

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       Yeah.

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg32:32

       ... and it's like, um, and, like, from, from her perspective, it's like, "Oh, not, not a big deal. It was a, a quick question. Just go back to what you were doing." It's like, "No, that's not how it works." (laughs) But, but it's, um, but so I, I do think to some degree, having people be able to work remotely, um, is, is actually pretty useful for a lot of things. But I thi- I think we'll need to find this mix. I think we'll need to find the mix.

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       I physically run away from my wife when I have a joke idea. If she's talking and I, I have an idea, I, I will just run away. I just go, "I got an idea. I just have to..." like, she gets it, so it's okay. But yeah, if I'm in the middle of writing-

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg33:05

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       ... and she comes in and interrupts, it's f- it's over.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Minority Report style. …

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg45:00

      using your hands. So, let's say, okay, it's like I snap my fingers, we have a chess game, right, or, or a poker game, and okay, here's, here's our, our, our chess board and I, I move a piece. It's like, okay, yeah, that I'll do with my hands, that's kinda cool, but, like, you're not gonna be walking down the, the s- like, the sidewalk, like, manipulating stuff with your hands. I mean, that, that I think-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      Minority Report style.

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg45:19

      Um, yeah, I mean, I think at some basic level, if you can get past that just being weird, um, I think most people's hands will just get tired, right? (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:28

      Yeah.

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg45:28

      I mean, have you ever, I mean, uh, uh, just k- uh, if you hold your hands out like this for a long enough period of time, eventually you wanna put your hands down. Um, so the question is, how do you make it so that you can basically go and have your mind give commands to the, the computer, in this case the glasses, um, without having to speak out loud, without having to wave your hands around? Um, even though those things will be great for some use cases, you're not gonna want them all the time. So, the, the research that we're doing, it's based on the, it's, it's, it's basically, it's input only and it's focused on, so it's not, it's not trying to send signals to your brain. It's trying to make it so that your brain can communicate with the computer. And the, the path that we have is it's based on the fact that we have all these extra motor neurons in our body, right? And, and part of the reason for that is, like, in case you get hurt, you have neuroplasticity, you can rewire, do stuff, like find a different pathway to, to kind of send a signal to move your finger or something. There's all these different ways that it turns out our brain could tell this finger to move, but we've sort of optimized, um, individually, kind of we, we kind of reinforce certain pathways and end up using one, one kind of motor neuron pathway to, to do a specific thing, and you have all these others that are not that used. So, it turns out you can have a device on your wrist that basically your brain can communicate with your hand, um, tell your hand to move in, like, a pattern that it isn't kno- isn't used to, and then the, the wristband can sort of pick up those signals and translate them into completely different things, like having a virtual hand move in front of you while your physical hand is just kind of sitting there at your side.

   6. JRJoe Rogan47:12

      Whoa.

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg47:12

      So, you'll be able to have this experience in the future where, like, you're sitting in a meeting, um, and, you know, your wife texts you and it pops up in the corner of your glasses, and you wanna respond but you don't wanna, like, pull out your phone, 'cause that's kinda rude, right? Um, so you just kinda like, I don't know, twitch your wrist a little bit, maybe like this, like some super discreet motion, um, that no one even knows you're doing it, and you just, like, send a message. And-

   8. JRJoe Rogan47:39

      That seems like a massive distraction. I mean, people are already distracted by their phones. Like, when people-

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg47:45

      Well-

   10. JRJoe Rogan47:45

       ... get a text message and they're like, "Hu- hang on a second, I just gotta an- answer this real quick." And you're like, "Okay." And you're sittin' there having lunch with someone and they're not talking to you anymore 'cause they're looking at their phone. But now they're gonna be looking at these AR glasses and just thinking out text messages.

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg47:59

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       And you won't, you won't even know that they're distracted. They're just gonna be not connecting with you.

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg48:05

       Uh, I don't know. I actually think ... I don't know, one experience that I think has been interesting since I've been doing more Zoom calls, um, especially earlier in the, in the, i- in COVID, one thing that I think actually was quite good, or is quite good, is the ability to both kind of have, have everyone who you're meeting with on video chat, but then also have a chat thread going with some o- of those people so that way, like, let's say there's something that you don't wanna say to everyone who's in the room, but you wanna ask one person. It's like, "Hey, can you clarify this thing that you said?" Or-

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:36

       Right.

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg48:36

       ... or you, you, like, don't wanna say something in front of someone. It's like I, I have this issue a lot because there's, like, a lot of confidential information that I have around the, the company and I don't wanna share it with everyone, but I wanna, like, get certain people's opinion on stuff. And if I'm doing a meeting and it's purely physical and, like, everyone is there, I, I've found that, you know, sometimes I, like, have to wait until the meeting is over to go get the answer to the question that I wanted.

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:56

       Right.

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg48:56

       Whereas, um, when, when I was, if, if I'm kind of having a, a virtual meeting over Zoom or in VR in Workrooms, um, you just, you can just kinda text people while you're doing that. So, I, I actually think that it will unlock a massive amount of efficiency and communication and expression between people to make it so that people don't have to wait, um, until they're done doing one thing to, to send a message to someone else. But, but yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a separate question.... about if you have glasses and you're wa- and you're kind of going about... You know, it's one thing to have VR and you put it on when you wanna go, you know, play a game or do a meeting. In, in the, in the kind of fullness of augmented reality, when you kind of have the glasses and you're c- like, going about that through your whole l- through your life, having some kind of really smart do not disturb mode that has a sense of like, okay, this thing really shouldn't distract you when you're doing something important is gonna be... That's gonna be a really important AI problem too, I think-

   18. JRJoe Rogan49:52

       Yeah.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg49:52

       ... to be able to kind of simulate and understand, um... 'Cause I don't think it's gonna be as black and white as, like, do not disturb on or off, right? I think you, like, you, you want some intelligence there about, you know, routing and, and kind of understanding which things you're gonna wanna get and which things not.

   20. JRJoe Rogan50:05

       And maybe have certain people have priority, like if your wife or your family is trying to get ahold of you, they can get through-

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg50:10

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan50:10

       ... but business people can't get through.

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg50:12

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:12

       Yeah.

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg50:12

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:14

       Yeah. I, I worry about additional distractions. I mean, uh, I do not keep my children from social media, 'cause I feel like the world that they live in has social media in it and I don't want them to be just completely disconnected from that. I limit the amount of time they use their phones, and I try to talk to them about the importance of not being, like, completely, uh, absorbed in social media and these kind of things that these kids do. But I, I think it's a part of life, and I, I think it's, uh, it's, it's new and it's weird and it's confusing and it can be very addictive. But I also think it's a part of life. But going out to dinner with them is so hard. (laughs)

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg50:53

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan50:53

       They just wanna check their... Like, I'm like, "Hey, put your phone down. Stop snapping with your friends." They're always Snapchatting. I'm like, "Stop! Stop doing that."

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg51:01

       It's like, well, we gotta stop that.

   30. JRJoe Rogan51:02

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:08:19

   Yeah. I mean, I…

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      you're very active, like, which I think is very ... It's a great message, too. It's very ... It's great for you, but it's also a great message for other people that, here's this guy who's incredibly busy. He's ... And his life is, uh, overwhelmed with technology, yet he's constantly doing physical things and using his body and exercising and getting out in nature.

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:19

      Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's something that my parents really stressed for me early on. They're like ... Uh, my parents pushed me pretty hard. They were like, "You're gonna do well in school, and you're gonna be on three varsity sports teams." And, like, and it's just-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

      That's it?

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:31

      Yeah. Well, I mean, and, like, and, you know, a lot of other stuff.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

      No, but I mean, like-

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:34

      But it's-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

      ... that, you don't have any debate. It's it.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:37

      No, it's, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

      This is, this is the rule.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:38

       So it's like, that's, that's just what you're gonna do. So, um, and I'm, I'm super grateful for it. I mean, they, they weren't very prescriptive, right? I mean, they didn't tell me I had to do computers. They didn't tell me which sports I had to do. But they were like, "This is important." Um, but I, I don't know. I mean, I've found that especially as the company has scaled and in some ways become more stressful, it's, like, more important, right? It's ... And my sort of day is like ... It's like, all right, you wake up in the morning, look at my phone. You get, like, a million messages, right, of, of stuff that come in. It's usually not good, right? It's, I mean, p- people-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

       (laughs)

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:14

       People like, people reserve the good stuff to tell me in person, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:17

       Right.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:17

       Um, so but it's, it's like, okay, what's going on in the world that I need to kinda pay attention to that day or ... So it's, it's almost like every day you wake up and you're, like, punched in the stomach. And then it's like, "Okay, well, fuck. Now I need to, like, go reset myself and be able to kinda be productive and not be stressed about this, so how do I do that?" So I basically, I go, I like, I, I read, I take in all the information, and, um, and then ...... I, I go do something physical for an hour or two and, and just kind of reset myself. And over time, what I've found is that it's not actually just, um ... I used to run a lot, but the problem with running is you can think a lot while you're running.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:54

       Hmm. (laughs)

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:55

       Um, so I- I've, um, especially over the last couple of years, I've gotten really into things that require full focus. So, um, you know, at the beginning of, of COVID, I, I, I mentioned that I spent a bunch of time in, in Kauai. Our family has a, has a ranch down there, and like, I spent a lot of time foiling and surfing. And it's like, if you're foiling or, or surfing and you're on, like, a wave, you have to be, you have to pay attention the whole time, right? Or else you're gonna fall and, and maybe get held under. And it's like not, that's, that's not a great experience. I don't know if you, if you surf, but, um ...

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:02:28

       No, I don't. But I tried foiling-

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:30

       Uh-huh.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:30

       ... and I'm an oaf. I couldn't get on the thing.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:32

       Well, I-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

       My, my young daughter is really good at it, my 12-year-old, and she just zooms around and gets on that thing, and I just, I couldn't figure it out.

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:41

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

       (laughs)

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:43

       It's, uh, it's, um ... You're talking about the eFoil for that.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:47

       Yes.

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:47

       Yeah, that, it's ... I, I bet if you tried it for, like, a few days, you'd get it down pretty well.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:54

       That's the problem. (laughs)

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:54

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       I tried it for about three hours and I was like-

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:57

       But the-

Episode duration: 2:53:53