Joe Rogan Experience #1863 - Mark Zuckerberg

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Mark Zuckerberg 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) So, uh, your new Oculus is awesome. It's very impressive.

Mark Zuckerberg 0:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:15 It's very cool.

Mark Zuckerberg 0:17 Coming out in October, um, we're gonna be talking about it at our Connect con- uh, at our Connect, uh, conference that's, that's, uh, that's coming up. Um, yeah, pretty excited about it.

Joe Rogan 0:27 It's, um, it's so interesting, the, the, when you put it on ... So I'll just describe it to people. When I put it on, there was an avatar in front of me and it was an alien woman. And the alien woman, when I moved my mouth, she moved her mouth, when I moved my eyes left and right, she, sh- it's tracking my eyes. When I make, like a angry face, like arrr, it makes an angry face. When you go, like, oh, open your m- it's incredible. It, like, you can see the evolution and the progress of this stuff, where it's getting to the point where it's mimicking human patterns in a, a, a kind of a creepy way.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02 (laughs) But it's very cool.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03 Yeah, so, you know, for me, the stuff is all about, like, helping people connect, right? I mean, the, the way that I got into this is, um, you know, I don't know, I just started thinking about, like, what is the ... Like, what would be the ultimate expression of, of basically people using technology to feel present with each other, right? And it's not phones.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:26 It's not computers. Like, how do you get this, this sensation of actually being present, like you're right there with another person? And that's, to me, what virtual and eventually augmented reality are all about. And there's just this whole technology roadmap that you, that we basically just need to go run down over the next decade to unlock that. So, for the next, uh, device that's coming out in October, um, you know, the, there are a few big features. I mean, the, the one that you're talking about, um, basically social presence. I mean, the ability to, uh, now have kind of eye contact in virtual reality.

Joe Rogan 2:04 Mm.

Mark Zuckerberg 2:04 Have your face be tracked, so that way, um, your avatar, it's not just like this still thing, um, but if you smile or if you frown or if you pout or, you know, whatever your expression is, have that actually just in real time translate to your avatar. I mean, that's such a ... Obviously, like, our facial expressions are just a huge, um, that's like a ... You know, there's more non-verbal communication when, when people are, are, are with each other than verbal communication. Uh-

Joe Rogan 2:27 You had a really good point too, about, uh, face tracking in like a, if you're doing like a FaceTime call, that you don't look each other in the eye.

Mark Zuckerberg 2:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Because you're looking at the camera to look in the eye, and then you don't see the person. So if you look at the camera, you're, you know, you're looking up, and if you look at the, you know, look down at the actual screen, you're l- you're, you're not making eye contact with the person. But this is able to recreate actual eye contact-

Mark Zuckerberg 2:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:52 ... with the avatar.

Mark Zuckerberg 2:53 Yeah, no, this will be the, the, the first time really to do that. Um, you know, I mean, when we're using technology today, I mean, it's, it's great to be able to make phone calls and video calls and all that. I mean, if you can't be with someone today, you know, it's nice to be able to see their face. But when you're on a video call, you don't actually feel like you're there with the person, right?

Joe Rogan 3:10 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 3:10 I mean, you get some signal, some information, you can see their face, but, um, the whole time you're, you're kind of trying to convince your brain that you're actually there with them, but your brain knows, right? It's like at a, at kind of like a deep level-

Joe Rogan 3:24 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 3:24 ... that, that's ... You're, you're, you're not actually there with them, you're just getting some information about what they, what they look like. And to me, what, what virtual reality unlocks is it basically really convinces your brain that you're there. I mean, when you're in there, you're, you're, um, you know, you're, you have to basically try to convince your brain that, that this isn't real, right?And that you're not present.

Joe Rogan 3:48 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 3:48 So, and there are all these just subtle signals, um, and things that either, that either deepen the illusion or, um, or break it. Um, that, that, you know, each time we, we do a new, a new version, we, we just try to, uh, you know, break down a few more of the barriers, so. And one of the big ones early on ... Well, the, the first one obviously was just like having, having a headset and being able to look around. And for that, one of the key things that ... Your eye basically refreshes, I don't know, call it every five milliseconds or something. So if you turn your head and the image isn't kind of refreshed to where you're looking within five milliseconds, then there's this huge mismatch between your visual system and your vestibular system and your, your kind of balance and your ear. And people used to kind of feel uncomfortable from that, right? Like, 'cause it's like a physical discomfort because it, like, what you were looking at didn't match, um, kind of, uh, uh, as you were rotating your head. So that was kind of the first thing. Then we got hands, and there was this whole thing that was super interesting there where at first we wanted to, you know, display your whole arm, um, which makes sense, right? 'Cause I mean, it's, it's, you'd think, okay, it's a little weird to just see your hand. But it turns out that your, your brain is perfectly willing to just accept seeing your hand without your arm-

Joe Rogan 5:05 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 5:06 ... as long ... Because your hand is the thing that it's trying to manipulate. And as a matter of fact, when, um, if we kind of interpolated and got your arm position wrong, right? So we'd get into these cases where your hands were here and we'd sort of guess that your, your arm was like that or something. And if your arm was actually like that, but we displayed it so that it was in like that, you're like, "Ah, my elbow's broken." Right? Like, it felt like really wrong. So it's, so it's actually much better to show a limited number of signals, but get them right, and then you can just add on over time. So, for previous versions before this, we didn't ... The, the kind of eye contact was all just, um, you know, AI simulated: but we didn't actually know when you were making eye contact because we weren't tracking the eyes. And now for, for this version and, um, hopefully, you know, a lot of the different ones that we build going forward, you'll be able to, you know, have realistic facial expressions and, um, and, and, and more translated directly to your avatar. But there's this whole road map of basically how do you deliver this like real sense of presence like you're there with another person no matter where you actually are?

Joe Rogan 6:03 It was very impressive 'cause even when I moved my jaw side to side, went like arrr-

Mark Zuckerberg 6:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:07 It did that. It made the O face like, hoo. It, it's, it's really interesting. And, you know, you were saying also that w-... what, what this- the way this is tracking is y- y- you're, you're doing this without putting something on your body, without putting trackers on your body. But do you ultimately think that that's, like, uh, w- are we gonna go Ready Player One, where you have, like, a haptic feedback suit and you have to zip this thing up to get into a game and, and, and in that way you're gonna be fully immersive? Or do you think that it can get to the point where it can mimic the movements of your body accurately without you having to wear something?

Mark Zuckerberg 6:44 So I, I think that there will be opportunities to wear things to augment the experience further. Right? So we, we already have these experiments with haptic gloves where you can, like, if you touch a digital object, right? If you drop a ball from one hand to the other, you can feel the ball in your hand physically, um, and that's pretty cool. But I, I wanna design this in a way where you don't need that. Right? So today there's two primary modes of doing the tracking. I mean, there's this kind of notion of inside-out tracking. You're wearing the headset and it tracks your motion, it tracks your hands, um, eventually it'll track your legs with an AI model. Um, and you can do that all with your headset. And the big advantage of that is you don't need to, you don't need to have a whole lot of different devices, right? Eventually you'll be able to do it without even having controllers, you'll just have the headset. The headset will get smaller, it'll be more portable, you'll be able to bring it around. You don't wanna have a setup that has, like, 10 pieces, right?

Joe Rogan 7:36 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 7:36 I mean, it's, I mean, maybe, uh, there are, there are gonna be times when you wanna kind of have that sort of super deep experience or maybe you have it at your home, but I think ultimately people are gonna just wanna have versions of this that they can bring around and, you know, whether it's on an airplane or you're doing work at the office or you're going to a coffee shop or whatever. And for that you, you really just wanna make it work from the device. Um-

Joe Rogan 7:57 So just from a pair of glasses or something along those lines?

Mark Zuckerberg 8:01 Yeah. I mean, right now there's, there's kind of two ... the concepts of virtual reality and augmented reality are sort of on two different development paths, but they're, they're, they're obviously fundamentally interrelated. Right? So virtual reality, it's, it's kind of possible to build today, right? Quest 2, it's, you know, pretty popular, doing well. Hopefully the new one that, that comes out, um, I think it's a pretty big step, um, a- a- above it. Um, but you can, you can build that today. There's a lot of new technology that we've researched that goes into that. But it also is building on top of decades of advances and displays that, um, came from TVs and then laptops and phones, and some of the display technology, um, gets to piggyback on that, those decades of innovation and, you know, all these different companies that have done that work b- before. AR is a pretty different beast, um, because what you really want to get to is not a headset. You wanna get to something that's like a normal-looking pair of glasses, um, that is, you know, I mean, it won't be like a wire frame because you'll need to fit some electronics in it, right? You'll basically need to have a, a computer in there and speakers and a microphone and batteries and a laser projector. And then the display, which, you know, we and a- a lot of other folks think are is gonna be this technology called waveguides, um, which it's completely different from screens, because it's, a screen, it's like you're looking at a thing, um, and, and basically you're looking at, like, all the pixels that are on the screen. The thing that's, that's different about a waveguide is it'll actually be see-through, so you'll be able to see the world through it, and then it'll display holograms, um, and be able to place them at different depths in the world.

Joe Rogan 9:44 So is a waveguide a type of technology? Like, what, what is a waveguide?

Mark Zuckerberg 9:47 Yeah. It's, um, it's, it's basically, it's, you know, it's a ... they can be made of different, um, different substances, plastic, glass, um, you know, different, different substrates. Um, and they basically get etched or printed in different ways, and there's this big debate right now where a lot of the research is going into what is the right way to basically create the, these waveguides that have the right properties, 'cause you, you want, um, for, for augmented reality to get something that's wide enough field of view. So, you know, you can imagine in five years we're having this conversation. I'm not here. You're wearing AR glasses. Hologram Mark is here. And, like, it's, so it's not only just is, is it kind of working as a hologram, but there's all these different dimensions beyond, um, just being, like, a, a better video chat. If we want to play poker, you know-

Joe Rogan 10:39 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 10:39 ... it's like I could, you know, I, I could, like, deal a deck of cards and we could play. Hologram m- me, um, could, you know, deal hologram cards and you could have your glasses and physical you there could pick up the hologram cards and then you can have a, a poker night where, like, some of your friends are there physically and some of them are there as, as holograms. And it's, it's actually kind of wild. One of the thought experiments that I like to do is, um, thinking about how few of the things that we physically have in the world actually need to be physical. Um, you know, obviously things like chairs need to be physical, right? You're not gonna be sitting on-

Joe Rogan 11:13 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 11:13 ... a hologram. Food needs to be physical. Um, but most entertainment-type stuff, I mean, not just cards, but games, most media. TVs in the future probably won't need to actually be physical things. It'll just be like a, an app, like a, we'll just have an app there on your, on your wall and, you know, it's like snap your fingers, get the hologram there for the TV and we can have our glasses and watch whatever you want there and, I don't know, they're sort of limited to being rectangular now because a bunch of, you know, limits in, in terms of the physics of how they get produced. But in the future you'll just have like some, you know, high school students or college students developing apps and it'll just be wild. Like, cra- crazy stuff will, will just kind of get created. And, and, but so yeah, so you'll, you'll eventually be able to kind of have that all come through, um, through these AR glasses.

Joe Rogan 12:02 So are there, these AR glasses, uh, uh, are they in production now? Are they in development now? Like when you-

Mark Zuckerberg 12:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:09 ... when you talk about this kind of technology where you can see things that aren't there and-

Mark Zuckerberg 12:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 ... l- look at maps and watch videos and have it all on a small computer that's in a, the frame of a glasses.

Mark Zuckerberg 12:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:19 Do they exist already?

Mark Zuckerberg 12:21 No. Uh, uh, I think the ... we'll start to get ...... stuff that, that kind of looks like the full version of this over the next, I, I'd say three to five years. Um, but I think it'll also start off pretty expensive, um, once, once it's available, and then it'll take a while to work down to something that's, like, hundreds of dollars. Um, but there are versions of this that you can start to see, um, if you relax some of the constraints, right? So the, the kind of ultimate AR experience is that, like, okay, you just have normal-looking glasses that can, that can kind of have all of these, um, have holograms and make it so you can interact with people wherever, wherever you want. But, um, if you relax the form factor constraint, right, so you have a headset instead of, um, instead of normal-looking glasses, that's the other thing that's coming in the new device that we're shipping in October, is mixed reality in VR, right? So we, we got to play around with this a little bit in the, um, in the sword-fighting, um, ex- experience that we did, but it's ... You know, basically, the, the thing about mixed reality is, is you, you see the physical world around you. Um, in, in the context of VR, it's not happening through a wave guide. It's basically happening through you have cameras on the device that capture the world and then translate that in real time into stereo images. So different images in both eyes so that way you can, um ... Yeah, 'cause otherwise it's, it's weird, and we're, we, we kind of see stuff in, in, in, you know, 3D because we have two im- we, our two eyes see slightly different things, so you're kind of... The, the computers are putting that together on the fly, and, um, and then you can overlay digital objects on top of that. So when we were, you know, sword fighting, it's like the version of me and my sword, it's like that was a digital thing, but otherwise it was in your lobby, right, and you could see your lobby.

Joe Rogan 14:05 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 14:05 So, so you could start to see those kind of AR experiences starting to get built, but in a, um, form factor around mixed reality VR first. So that's one, one direction that I think that the, that the, that the industry is exploring. The other is basically looking at, okay, so we got to constrain this form factor 'cause we wanna have something that looks like normal glasses. What's the most technology that we can fit into a pair of normal-looking glasses today, right? So you kind of go from both sides, right? It's like what's the experience that

Mark Zuckerberg 14:35 we want to have even if we can't get the form factor right, and what's the best we can do with the form factor? And then each year those two basically converge. But on the, um, on the smart glasses side, and we work with Ray-Ban to basically build these smart glasses, and they're the best-selling smart glasses that, that have, that have ever been built, and they're, um, you know, it's, we'll, we're continuing to work on new versions of it, but they're ... You know, basically you can get a pair of, of Ray-Ban Wayfarers now that, um, that have a microphone and that they have a speaker and they can take photos and take videos-

Joe Rogan 15:07 Really?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:07 ... and you can post them to Instagram. Yeah, it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 15:09 They do it on voice command?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:11 Yep. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:11 Oh, so you could say, "Take a photo of this"?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:13 Yep. Take a photo, take a video, um-

Joe Rogan 15:14 And what, what kind of image quality are you getting off of these things?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:18 Um, it's pretty good. It's, um ... I, I want to make sure I don't get the, the spec wrong and I just have all these different numbers in my head because I, I want to make sure I don't confuse it with the new version.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Is it, like, similar to, like, a selfie camera? Like-

Mark Zuckerberg 15:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:30 ... limited in-

Mark Zuckerberg 15:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:31 ... comparison to the back camera?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:32 Yeah. No. It's not quite as good as the, as the back cameras today, but it's, um ... But yeah. No. It's, it's like, I mean, you look at the, the quality and it's good. Um, and y- and it fits in, like, the corner of a, of glasses.

Joe Rogan 15:44 Does that bring about privacy concerns if people could just, like, start filming things?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:49 Yeah. So, I mean, we designed it so it has a light on it, so whenever the-

Joe Rogan 15:53 Oh.

Mark Zuckerberg 15:53 Yeah. I mean that's, that I think is actually a really important part of this that-

Joe Rogan 15:55 Well, could you put a piece of tape over the light?

Mark Zuckerberg 15:58 I, I mean, I guess in theory, but-

Joe Rogan 15:59 If you were a creep.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:00 ... but it's, um ... Yeah, there you go.

Joe Rogan 16:01 There it is.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:02 So that little thing in the corner, is that a highlight or a light?

Mark Zuckerberg 16:06 Uh, no, that's the light.

Joe Rogan 16:07 That's the light.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:07 And it, and it blinks-

Joe Rogan 16:08 Okay.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:09 ... and it, it, it's, it's a pretty active indicator, um, and I think if you put a-

Joe Rogan 16:13 Wow.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:13 ... if you put a piece of tape over it, it would probably interfere with the camera, so-

Joe Rogan 16:18 And so those Wayfarers are essentially the same size as normal Wayfarers? Do they have thicker, uh, arms?

Mark Zuckerberg 16:24 I think it's ever-so-slightly thicker, but it's within the same ballpark of, uh, of weight. You know, so we worked with a company that ... I mean, Ray-Bans, I mean, these are like some of the most, you know, popular-

Joe Rogan 16:35 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:35 ... and successful glasses, and, you know, part of the reason why I wanted to work with them is 'cause they know a lot about glasses design and, right, that's not my thing-

Joe Rogan 16:41 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:41 ... right? So, um, so I figure, okay, they'll, they'll really bring to the table some constraints around, like, okay, like, how big can this actually be before it starts getting too heavy on your face and uncomfortable to wear-

Joe Rogan 16:53 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 16:53 ... for long periods of time? And I've just learned a ton working with those guys. I mean, they're, they're super sharp. They're this, you know, great Italian company, and the collaboration has been awesome so far, so I'm, I'm looking forward to, to building more s- more stuff with them. But yeah, you, so you basically have these two paths to the technology at once. You're, you're kind of trying to explore all the capabilities but in a device that's bigger than the form factor that you want while simultaneously, you know, every year or two cranking and, and, and kind of pumping more technology into what's the, like, what can you fit into the, the kind of form factor that you want and, you know, make it a really great design? And then just eventually these things converge. And then eventually they'll converge and you'll get the functionality and you'll get the, the, the kind of form factor, but it'll still be kind of expensive for a little while, and then you fast-forward a few years from there and then I think it'll really be a mainstream thing. But even VR today is, is doing quite well. I mean, it's, um ... I mean, I don't, I don't think we release, like, exact numbers on the sales, but, you know, I mean, it's, it's within the ballpark of,

Mark Zuckerberg 17:54 you know, Xbox or PlayStation or those kind of platforms and-

Joe Rogan 17:57 Really?

Mark Zuckerberg 17:57 Yeah. So when we started off, this was sort of my theory on this is like, all right, gaming is use case number one for, for VR, but then pretty quickly ... And if you look at any c- any platform, right? So computers, phones before, games are, are a huge part of those platforms, but, um, if you look at the main things that people do, it's really about communication, 'cause, I mean, this is what people do, right? It's like we, we communicate and, you know, that's kind of how we get meaning in our life is interacting with other people.So it's like, all right, that's gonna happen with VR, and sure enough, if you look at the top apps in VR now, um, the top few are basically social metaverse, hang out with your friends apps, that are not centered around any specific game. Um, so that kind of hypothesis around, okay, VR is starting to add different use cases, it's going from games first... Games are, are still growing and gonna be huge, to, um, just kind of social, hang out with friends, be present. And we're getting all these other use cases that are, that are kind of crazy and are happening sooner than I thought. So, you know, another big one is fitness, right? Just because, I mean, in a way, I mean, these are like the first physical computing platforms.

Joe Rogan 19:06 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 19:06 It's like, you don't, you don't, like, move around while you're on your computer. I guess you could a little bit on your phone, but it's sort of awkward because you're looking at the small screen. But, like, VR and eventually AR are really designed to be able to move around and do things and, like, interact with the world, and that's really important to me. I mean, it's like, I, I just, like, I hate sitting in front of a desk, right? It's like I, I just feel like if I'm not, like, active, I'm, I'm like wasting my day. Um, so I don't know, there have been these awesome experiences that basically a couple of companies, um, you can kind of think about it like Peloton for VR-

Joe Rogan 19:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 19:36 ... where, you know, it's like Peloton, they sell you the bike or the treadmill and then you buy the subscription and you get the, the classes. There's a couple of companies that basically do, you know, they do cardio, they do dancing, they do boxing, but instead of having to buy a bike, you just have your Quest headset and once you have that, you buy a subscription to, to these, these companies. Um, and you can just take lessons, um, and, and do different things and, and fitness and it's, it's, um... I, I thought that was pretty wild. I thought that, like, in the long term, something like that would start to happen, but it happened way sooner than I thought, um, which was really cool to, to see.

Joe Rogan 20:11 Well, if you do one of the boxing games, you realize right away, like, this is a really good workout.

Mark Zuckerberg 20:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Like, it, it... The virtual boxer, when they come towards you, and they're in that ring, and they start throwing punches at you and you're moving your head-

Mark Zuckerberg 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:23 ... you really wind up getting, uh, uh, like, a really high heart rate. You, you put out a lot of energy. It's really good cardio. I found, like, my feet would hurt-

Mark Zuckerberg 20:33 Huh.

Joe Rogan 20:33 ... because I was pivoting and moving so much because I was, like, constantly, like, switching stances and trying to get away with, from punches. And as you get, get further on in some of the games, like, the opponents become more difficult.

Mark Zuckerberg 20:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:46 It's really exciting. It's fun. And you get out of there and you're really exhausted. It's a really good workout.

Mark Zuckerberg 20:51 Yeah, so I mean, and that's just the, the kind of nature of the whole platform, and that's one of the things that I love about it. But it's... I mean, those aren't even trying to be fitness apps, right?

Joe Rogan 21:01 Right, they're just fun.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:02 I mean, the, the ones that... Yeah, it's just that, that they just happen to be physical.

Joe Rogan 21:04 Are they, um, capable of having two people, like, we, we had a fencing match-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:08 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 21:09 ... today, you and I did.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Which was really fun. Are they capable of doing that with boxing now, where two people have a b- Because the thing about the fencing match that we had that I thought was really interesting is like you've, we're facing one direction-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:20 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 21:20 ... like 30 feet away, and I was facing another direction. Like, we weren't even facing each other. It didn't even matter.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:27 So you could be in Bangladesh and I can be in Rome-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:31 ... and we could be playing a game together.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:34 Yeah, so, I mean, the, the fencing demo, our internal team built because we haven't released the new device yet, so in order to kind of make stuff work for, we, we kind of built it ourselves. But the, the boxing ones are, are made all by other game developers and different developers. So-

Joe Rogan 21:49 And they can do that, where-

Mark Zuckerberg 21:50 Yeah, there's nothing stopping them from having a multiplayer mode.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Oh.

Mark Zuckerberg 21:53 I'm not sure if any of them do yet. I, I... All the ones that I've played. I mean, I do Thrill of the Fight, and I do... and I really like Creed, but I, I, I do those as, um, as single player. I don't, I don't know if they have multiplayer modes, but there's nothing holding them back from doing that. So I'd imagine that they will add that over time.

Joe Rogan 22:07 It seems like a smart move. I mean, we were talking about martial arts, like, in, in terms like Muay Thai and, and other... I think jujitsu would be a real problem, but, you know, because you'd have to physically have something to resist against. But if you could figure out how to do a Muay Thai mode where... The only problem would be things change when you make contact with stuff.

Mark Zuckerberg 22:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Things change in terms of, like, positioning and movement and what you're able to get away with and not get away with. Whereas with boxing, boxing is pretty good for that. Like, it's probably, like, the best combat sport for VR because you don't even have to hit anything for it to feel like you kind of are.

Mark Zuckerberg 22:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:47 And when you get hit with a jab, your, your screen lights up-

Mark Zuckerberg 22:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:50 ... like you feel like you got hit.

Mark Zuckerberg 22:52 Yeah, I mean, for kicking. With punching, it's a little easier to, to throw a punch and then just pull it back. With kicking, if you, if you're not hitting a pad or something-

Joe Rogan 22:59 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 22:59 ... you want to, like, continue rotating or else it's tough to really put-

Joe Rogan 23:02 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 23:03 ... your, put your weight into it.

Joe Rogan 23:04 It's, um... Do you envision a world where one day the physical experience of the game is going to be inconsequential because everything is going to be taking place in your mind? Like, it'll be so good, whether it's with haptic feedback or some other kind of input where you'll be able to actually experience very Matrix-like something that's not there? I mean, is that ultimately where all this is going?

Mark Zuckerberg 23:32 I don't know. I mean... I, I just think that so much of our experience is our body and not just our mind.

Joe Rogan 23:40 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 23:40 I mean, there's this strain of, of kind of philosophical thought that's like, okay, what is a human? It's like, your... It's really just your brain, right? It's... And I don't subscribe to that at all because... I mean, I don't know what you're... how, how you feel about stuff, but, like, I, I just feel like my whole energy level and mood and kind of how I kind of interact with the world is all just based on... It's like, it's, it's so physical, right? It's not just-

Joe Rogan 24:05 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 24:05 You know? So I don't, I don't... I mean, I guess maybe over time it would be possible to just simulate that through your brain, but I don't believe that we're just brains in tanks, um, or just brains in a body. Um, I, I kind of think our, our kind of physical being and the actions that we take there are as much or, I don't know, that, that's like just as much of kind of the experience of being human.

Joe Rogan 24:30 I-I would agree with that, but I would also say that a lot of people just like to sit down and watch movies.

Mark Zuckerberg 24:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:35 And that's a very alien experience to the human body.

Mark Zuckerberg 24:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:37 And it's something we've become very accustomed to. So, what I'm thinking is if technology advances, and it keeps going further in the direction that it's headed now, more immersive, more convincing, you know, that uncanny valley gets bridged, and all of a sudden you have a, a real-life experience. Now, whether this is through some sort of a Neuralink-type deal-

Mark Zuckerberg 25:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:00 ... or some new technology that tricks the mind into actual experiences, I mean, ultimately, isn't that where this is all gonna go? Where you're going to be able to have experiences without having them? And that's not to negate the beauty of real experiences or not to say we won't have real experiences anymore. But if you wanted to have a real experience, and we talked about, like, um, y- you know, economic restrictions that would keep you from being able to fly to another part of the world, well, you could go there with your Oculus. You c- you could, you know, have a, a very realistic, 3D representation of those pl- like, you took me to Rome today. I saw, I got to see Rome. It's very cool. But do you think that ultimately that is going to get to a par, uh, to a time where it's, the technology is so advanced that it's indiscernible, that you, you would have, you could have a podcast experience with me, you and I could have this, this same conversation right now, but neither one of us be in this room?

Mark Zuckerberg 25:56 Yeah, I think the nature of technology is that... I think it's... It's interesting to sort of hypothesize what the, kind of, extreme end state is gonna be when something-

Joe Rogan 26:08 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 26:08 ... becomes kind of all-consuming. But I think the normal way this stuff plays out is that some things are more easily mimickable or replaceable than others. So, we were talking before about, okay, boxing, yeah, you can do that pretty well. Maybe one day we'll get Muay Thai and kicking in. Jujitsu, that's gonna be pretty hard, right?

Joe Rogan 26:27 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 26:27 Because y- you need, like, all kinds of resistance. So, I, I, I mean, I think the way that this progresses is, like, you'll... It'll keep on being able to do more things really well, and I would guess that there will be other technologies or other things will advance in the world that will prevent any one thing from ever subsuming everything else. Um, so, I, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I, I also, I mean, maybe just 'cause I'm in the, I'm in the position of, like, working on building this stuff every day, so it, maybe it just, it's, it's, like, like, I'm just trying to make it useful for a lot of things, right? So, to, to jump to, like, it's so useful that it's better than everything is, like, is sort of, um... Yeah, I'm, I'm just not, I mean, that's, that's so far ahead of where we actually are, 'cause I'm, like, in the trenches every day trying to-

Joe Rogan 27:14 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 27:14 ... trying to get this to work for-

Joe Rogan 27:15 Maybe too close to it.

Mark Zuckerberg 27:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:17 But from a bird's-eye view, like, if you looked at where this is going, it's going to become more immersive, right?

Mark Zuckerberg 27:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:23 It's going to get better. It's going to be more convincing. And this is the real argument for simulation theory, right? The argument for sim- simulation theory is if there's so many c- civilizations out there in the universe and they're so advanced, ultimately one has to create a simulation. It seems like that's going to happen. If the, if the human race could survive another 100,000 years, the odds we wouldn't create a, a really realistic simulation is probably pretty low.

Mark Zuckerberg 27:54 Yeah, I think the question is just how, how realistic and how good.

Joe Rogan 27:57 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 27:57 So, I think that there's... Uh, to me, there, like, the Holy Grail is building something that can create a f- a sense of human presence, right? It's like-

Joe Rogan 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 28:05 I mean, I've spent the last almost 20 years of my life building social software, um, you know, b- making it so you, whatever limited com- computation you have, you can kind of share something about your experience, and, you know, it started off with primarily text, right, when I was in college. Then we all got these smartphones and they had cameras, so then it became a lot of photos. Now the mobile networks are good enough that it's starting to be a lot more video. And to me, this kind of, like, immersive experience is clearly going to be the next step. But there's this question about, okay, so being able to feel like you're present with someone will unlock so many different types of value for a lot of people, and there's, like, social and entertainment, there's professional. I mean, one of, um, you know, I follow this, this economist who basically studies that economic opportunity and, and upward mobility is sort of limited, um, or, or varies based on, like, what, what ZIP code you grow up in, right? Because there's different opportunities in different places. But, you know, imagine if you didn't have to, you know, move to some city that didn't have your values in order to be able to get all the economic opportunities, that would be awesome. So, in the future where you can just use AR or VR and teleport in the morning to the office-

Joe Rogan 29:16 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 29:16 ... and show up as a hologram, I think that's gonna be pretty sweet, right? It'll unlock a lot of economic opportunity for, for a lot of people. Um, is it ever going to be 100% as good as being there in person? Probably not. But, like, I mean, I don't know, when, when we were talking about, about doing this conversation, um, you know, we talked on the phone, right? It's like I didn't fly down to Austin to talk about whether to have this conversation. Sometimes it's like, like whatever amount of simulation you have is, um... You can create a lot of value even if it's not 100% as good as the, as the actual physical thing.

Joe Rogan 29:54 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 29:55 Um, so I, I just view our job as, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll basically approach that like an asymptote. I don't know if they'll, you know, you'll never be able to do all of the things that you can do, um, kind of in person with a person, but, um, we'll just be able to do more and more. You know, if today it's gaming or hanging out and, you know, over the next few years it'll be working, right? So, hopefully you'll just be able to teleport in and, and basically just show up as a hologram and work remotely and live wherever you want, be with your family, um, wherever they live, um, but just be able to show up in whatever place, um, I think that that's gonna, that's gonna be pretty awesome and I think we'll be able to, to do that pretty well. So-

Joe Rogan 30:31 It's gonna be a real issue for commercial real estate.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:35 ... um-

Joe Rogan 30:36 (laughs) There's not gonna be a lot of offices. If that actually becomes, like, as good as having a cell phone in your pocket and being able to make a phone call-

Mark Zuckerberg 30:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:44 ... you could just sort of teleport to work-

Mark Zuckerberg 30:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:47 ... it's gonna be a problem. No one's gonna wanna work.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:50 Well, that's a different question. I-

Joe Rogan 30:51 Mean, whether or not they're gonna-

Mark Zuckerberg 30:52 ... I think-

Joe Rogan 30:52 ... physically wanna be there, rather. They'll, they'll, m- maybe they'll wanna work.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:56 Uh-

Joe Rogan 30:56 But they're not gonna wanna go to the office.

Mark Zuckerberg 30:58 Yeah, I mean, maybe, although I, I think being physically, uh, b- being present with people, feeling a sense of presence is pretty important-

Joe Rogan 31:05 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 31:05 ... regardless of where you do it. I mean, I've found, you know, over the last couple of years, the way that stuff, the, the work has been done has changed a huge amount and, you know, it's, there, there are all these things that are sort of complex about the office. But like, I mean, I see people in person almost every day. Uh, sometimes I, I probably do more meetings at my house now than I, than I would have before. Um, but, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I do think that there's... Seeing people in, in, in, in, in person, having that sense of presence makes a big, makes a big difference.

Joe Rogan 31:34 I think so too, but there's definitely a big pushback now about people going to the office, v- w- wh- uh, rather than working from home. Like, people would rather just do their work from home and they're like, "With the internet connections as they are today-

Mark Zuckerberg 31:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:50 ... and the ability to video conference, like, why do I have to be physically in the building in order to get my work done?"

Mark Zuckerberg 31:54 Yeah, no, and I agree with that, too. Um, you know, uh, our company is actually pretty forward-leaning on remote work. I mean, just especially some types of work, especially software engineering, you can do pretty well from a lot of different places and if you're an engineer, sometimes it's actually better to not be in the office, because then people aren't bugging you. You kind of want, like, a block of, like, five hours where you can just work on a problem. And if-

Joe Rogan 32:17 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:17 ... I don't know. It's like, I have this thing where, you know, it's I'll, I'll be, like, in zone kind of flow concentration working on something and, you know, my wife will, like, ask me some, some, like, basic question and I'll just be like, "Ah, man." It's like I just, like, lost my flow.

Joe Rogan 32:31 Yep.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:31 And-

Joe Rogan 32:31 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 32:32 ... and it's like, um, and, like, from, from her perspective, it's like, "Oh, not, not a big deal. It was a, a quick question. Just go back to what you were doing." It's like, "No, that's not how it works." (laughs) But, but it's, um, but so I, I do think to some degree, having people be able to work remotely, um, is, is actually pretty useful for a lot of things. But I thi- I think we'll need to find this mix. I think we'll need to find the mix.

Joe Rogan 32:53 I physically run away from my wife when I have a joke idea. If she's talking and I, I have an idea, I, I will just run away. I just go, "I got an idea. I just have to..." like, she gets it, so it's okay. But yeah, if I'm in the middle of writing-

Mark Zuckerberg 33:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:05 ... and she comes in and interrupts, it's f- it's over.

Mark Zuckerberg 33:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Just gets shattered.

Mark Zuckerberg 33:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:10 So in, in some ways, well, you would have to have, like, a real quiet and secure place. But I think for a lot of people, the, just the wasted time commuting and all that, if you could eliminate that through AR or VR, some sort of a hologram system-

Mark Zuckerberg 33:27 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:27 ... just the stress of life would be so much better.

Mark Zuckerberg 33:30 Yeah, I mean, that's been, for me, over the last couple of years with, with COVID and just kind of rethinking the, the way that, that stuff, um, has worked, I think reducing the commute has been one of the big efficiencies. But also being able to, being able to live in different places has been nice. I mean, I spent a lot of time down in, in Kauai earlier on, and I got, like, really into surfing and hydrofoiling and, like, I'd just, like, wake up in the morning and go do that. And then just be really refreshed and go do my full day of meetings, which is obviously not something I could do in, in Palo Alto.

Joe Rogan 34:03 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 34:04 Um, so I don't know. I'm, I'm pretty positive on all this. I think if you can give people the ability to get their, their kind of fluid state, like, flow state work, um, remotely, but then also just be able to kind of in a second teleport to a place and show up as a hologram and be present, I think that's pretty valuable. Now, the- there, there are... That doesn't replace everything, right? I mean, you're, I mean, I, one, one of the things that I found is for, you know, larger meetings, one of the most useful things is not actually the meeting itself, it's just getting a chance to catch up with people before and after the meeting, right?

Joe Rogan 34:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 34:36 When you're in the hallway or something.

Joe Rogan 34:38 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 34:38 So, so, you know, yeah. I mean, there is, there's a downside to being so efficient about being able to teleport in and out, too, 'cause you, you can kinda miss some of those casual downtime moments. But, um, but overall, yeah. I mean, I think it's just gonna, it's gonna create this kind of crazy amount of, of, of efficiency there.

Joe Rogan 34:53 Yeah, I think people are still gonna crave real world experiences no matter what. You know, obvi- obviously, uh, I do standup comedy, so obviously that experience, you must be there.

Mark Zuckerberg 35:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:04 Like, that's part of the fun is being in a room with people. But I can ev- I can envision technology improving to the point where you could create a virtual s- comedy club and you would see all of the different people that have the headsets on in the room-

Mark Zuckerberg 35:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:20 ... and you would get, probably get pretty close. Like, there was a lot of people that did Zoom standup during the pandemic and it was awful 'cause there was no audience. They were just basically, like, doing their act with no crowd.

Mark Zuckerberg 35:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:32 I'm like, "Don't, don't do that."

Mark Zuckerberg 35:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:33 Don't do that.

Mark Zuckerberg 35:34 Yeah, you need the feedback.

Joe Rogan 35:34 (laughs) It's terrible.

Mark Zuckerberg 35:35 It's, it's super awkward just doing-

Joe Rogan 35:36 It's terrible.

Mark Zuckerberg 35:36 ... doing public speaking and not having any feedback.

Joe Rogan 35:38 Well, i- i- l- if someone's just doing public feedback, there's, like, some really great podcasts where people just, like Bill Burr, just talks to himself. It's just him ranting about life and stuff and it's great. He doesn't necessarily need someone to bounce off of. But comedy is a different thing. Like, comedy by itself with no audience is not good-

Mark Zuckerberg 35:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:59 ... (laughs) it's just-

Mark Zuckerberg 36:00 Yeah. So there actually, there is already at least one experience like this that I'm aware of.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Really?

Mark Zuckerberg 36:05 So we have this Horizon social platform and people can build worlds in it. And it's like, it's, it's pretty simple today, but w- it's designed to be this really easy world building platform and people can go in and build stuff. And people built this thing called the Soapstone Comedy Club. And this is actually one o- one of the stories that I've heard of people using VR that I think is really touching. So there's this woman who, who basically, uh, who, uh, lost her son and, um, was really sad and was grieving for a while and comedy was just a really important outlet for her, but she had a lot of social anxiety around going and physically being in front of people and performing and doing it at a club. So she started doing it at the Soapstone Comedy Club and, you know, had a little bit more anonymity 'cause it was in, it was in virtual reality-

Joe Rogan 36:46 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 36:46 ... but she could feel a real sense of presence of other people there. And-... I mean, talking to her about it, it's like, it's been, you know, a real important experience for her to, to kind of be this creative outlet and help her get over this grieving that she's had. And it's not something maybe that she would have been comfortable having the kind of full intensity experience of a physical comedy club, but, um, but you kind of got a bunch of the way there by feeling like you were present with people there.

Joe Rogan 37:11 Hmm. Um, my friend, Brian Redband, he does this thing called Virtual Redband, where it ... What does he do? He does like ... They go to diners and stuff like that. They set it up-

Mark Zuckerberg 37:20 Mm-hmm. VR Chat.

Joe Rogan 37:21 Yeah. So he does it in Oculus, and he, you know, has a bunch of his friends log on at the same time, and they go into a room together and hang out. And it's really interesting-

Mark Zuckerberg 37:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:30 ... because I think that there ... Like, to be able to have an online community where you go to a place and you all meet up and you're all, like, talking and hearing each other's voices-

Mark Zuckerberg 37:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:41 ... and seeing the avatar move. And, like, that alien avatar that you showed me today, it's very real-looking. I mean, it do- I, I clearly see that it's this animated thing-

Mark Zuckerberg 37:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:51 ... but I would liken it to, like, an avatar, like from the movie Avatar, like the Na'vi.

Mark Zuckerberg 37:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:56 Like, there's something cool about it, where it's like it's definitely a step above all, a l- a lot of these things that I've seen in the past, that it's moving into this much more realistic sort of place-

Mark Zuckerberg 38:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:09 ... where I could imagine a lot of people just deciding, like, "Today, I'm gonna be a penguin. I'm gonna go to, uh, this diner and hang out-"

Mark Zuckerberg 38:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:17 "... with these guys as a penguin." And it's, it's exciting.

Mark Zuckerberg 38:20 And-

Joe Rogan 38:20 It's kind of fun.

Mark Zuckerberg 38:21 And p- part of what's a little trippy about it is that in some ways, some of these experiences, I think, feel more realistic than, for example, having a Zoom call, right? Where you can actually see-

Joe Rogan 38:30 Oh, yeah. For sure.

Mark Zuckerberg 38:30 ... the person's face.

Joe Rogan 38:31 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 38:31 Because, I mean, the way that our memory works, it's like, it's very spatial, right? So, you know, when I, when I leave here today, I'll remember that you were across from me, and, and, and there's a symmetry, right? It's like, you're across from me, so that means I'm across from you. We have a shared memory of, of kind of the space of the place. And, you know, if I ... Well, I guess it doesn't quite work because of the, the, the headphones, but normally, you know, if I, um, you know, if, if, if you talk, it's coming from that direction. Um, and spatial audio and kind of directional, building a spatial model of things, is how we make memories. So you take something like Zoom, and it just completely blows that up, because now, you know, it's every meeting that you have looks the same, right?

Joe Rogan 39:07 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 39:07 They're like ... And, and also, there's no symmetry, right?

Joe Rogan 39:10 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 39:10 So if you're in the top left of my, of my box square, that doesn't mean that I'm in the same place for you. So we actually, we don't have any kind of s- shared spatial sense of that. And I, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I just kind of feel like if I do a day of, of Zoom calls, they all sort of blend together, and I have a hard time remembering what meeting someone said something in.

Joe Rogan 39:30 Right. Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 39:31 Whereas, then, you know, say, if you go into VR, it's like, okay, you, you have an avatar. It's obviously not super realistic yet. It'll get better and better over time as the computation gets better. Although as a, as an aside, I'm not actually convinced that w- even when we have photorealistic avatars, that people are gonna prefer that to the expressive ones. But that's, that's kind of a whole separate tangent that we can go down. I think you'll, you'll clearly want th- the ability to do both, have a photorealistic one and an expressive one. Um, but yeah, I mean, if you're sitting around, and, you know, someone's a penguin, or, or your, your friends are clearly cartoony, but you're sitting around a table, and you have a, a shared sense of space, and, you know, your friend is to your right, which means that you're to their left, and when they speak, you hear it coming from that direction, you actually remember the spatial-

Joe Rogan 40:11 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 40:11 ... sense of that in the same way that you would a physical, a physical thing, which I ... It's just kind of getting all those details right over time, um ... I just think that there's ... I mean, this, to me, this is, like, some of the most exciting work that I've gotten to do in a, in a while, because, um, I just feel like building social experiences on phones is so constrained, right? In, in some ways it's awesome, because there's, like, billions of people that have phones. So I can, you know, we can build services that, that get used by billions of people around the world, and that's obviously rewarding in, in its, in its own way too. But, like, having the ability to define what these next platforms are going to be and have them break out of these boxes that have been really weirdly defined, right? In terms of ... Like, th- these things, phones, computers, they were not designed for com- c- for basically communication and interaction. They were designed for kind of work, and, um, and certain computational workloads. And so a lo- a lot of what I'm trying to do is like, okay, well, what does it look like to design the next computing platform in a way that's, like, really people-centric? So if you were doing it in the way that, like, our brains worked and how we actually process the world and how we think about stuff and what matters to us, I, I don't think you'd build a platform that was designed around apps. You'd build it where the fundamental, um, you know, unit of how you interact w- i- i- is, is around kind of people and, and how you express yourself. And, um, and you'd want to be able to, like, have an avatar and expression of your identity and be able to just jump between a bunch of different experiences rather than have everything be so siloed. So, um, I don't know. I think that the ... This is, uh, it's just, like, it's a ... It's pretty wild to try to build this all from the ground up, because there's just this incredible breadth and, and amount of technology. And I mean, I, I often get criticized because we're, we're investing just this huge amount in this. Um, we're, we're gonna spend, this year alone, more than $10 billion on, on all of these different research streams. But the breadth of this is just, like, extremely wide, right? It's not like $10 billion is going towards any one specific thing. It's like, there's all the avatar work and all of how you express yourself and how you build the worlds, and then there's all the VR stuff. And within VR, we're working on this year's device and next year's device and the, and the one after that. And then in AR, we talked about, it's like we had the Ray-Ban glasses, and we have sort of the next version of that. But then, we also have kind of the, the research going towards the full AR. Um, and we haven't even gotten to neural interfaces yet, but we should definitely spend some time on that. But it's like, you kind of go across all these different things, and it's just this incredibly wide amount of technology that, that needs to get built in order to basically build and deliver a realistic sense of presence like you're physically there with another person, which I just think is the most magical thing in the world.

Joe Rogan 42:49 Well, it's very exciting, the idea that you could have an office in a jungle. Like-

Mark Zuckerberg 42:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:53 ... you could just, all of a sudden, we all ... We're gonna call this meeting together, and we're gonna be on the moon.

Mark Zuckerberg 42:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:57 You know?

Mark Zuckerberg 42:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:58 We're gonna call ... (laughs) We're gonna be next to a volcano.

Mark Zuckerberg 43:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:00 There's gonna be a bubbling volcano right next-

Mark Zuckerberg 43:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:03 ... to the desk. It's cool. It's ... I mean, uh, look, I love the fact that there's people like you out there doing it, that it's, it's expanding the possibilities for this stuff. But n- so neural interfaces-

Mark Zuckerberg 43:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:13 ... what are your thoughts on that? Like, where, where does, where is that going? And where are we at right now?

Mark Zuckerberg 43:18 Yeah, so-I, I think, you know, so go, go back to your comments about the matrix before.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 43:22 I think when, when people think about neural interfaces, or any interface, I think it's important to separate out their, sort of, um, there's feedback that you're giving to the computer, and then there's information that the computer gives to you. And you can separate those two things out. So, I, I actually think the, the super hard part here is going to be having a computer give you information straight into your brain, and that's not a thing that we're working on. So, um, some people, I mean like, like Elon with Neurolink and those companies, I think, it's, I mean that's just taking this, like, super far off. I mean, maybe it'll be ready in, like, a couple decades. I mean, there will probably be interesting use cases in the nearer term for people who have injuries or something like that. But I think, um, you know, normal people, I think, in the next 10 or 15 years are probably not gonna wanna get something just installed in their brain for fun is my, is my guess. Um-

Joe Rogan 44:13 I don't wanna be an early adopter. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 44:15 Yeah. I, I think you, you want, like, the mature version of that, not like the-

Joe Rogan 44:18 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 44:18 ... not the one that, where it's gonna get a lot better next year and you need to, like, get your brain implant, um, upgraded every year. So, but, but here's the, the kind of version of this that I spent a lot of time thinking about. So, you have AR glasses, right, and how are you gonna control them? Right, I mean, uh, how you, how you kind of control any, any, any computation device is, is obviously, it's super fundamental to what the platform is. So, you have a bunch of different modes. Um, you know, one of them is gonna be voice, right? You'll be able to talk to it. But that's not, that doesn't always work, right, if you're in a public place or, um, you, you wanna be discreet or you wanna just not annoy the people around you, you, you don't, you're not gonna wanna dictate everything out loud. A second way is going to be, you know, using your hands. So, let's say, okay, it's like I snap my fingers, we have a chess game, right, or, or a poker game, and okay, here's, here's our, our, our chess board and I, I move a piece. It's like, okay, yeah, that I'll do with my hands, that's kinda cool, but, like, you're not gonna be walking down the, the s- like, the sidewalk, like, manipulating stuff with your hands. I mean, that, that I think-

Joe Rogan 45:18 Minority Report style.

Mark Zuckerberg 45:19 Um, yeah, I mean, I think at some basic level, if you can get past that just being weird, um, I think most people's hands will just get tired, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:28 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 45:28 I mean, have you ever, I mean, uh, uh, just k- uh, if you hold your hands out like this for a long enough period of time, eventually you wanna put your hands down. Um, so the question is, how do you make it so that you can basically go and have your mind give commands to the, the computer, in this case the glasses, um, without having to speak out loud, without having to wave your hands around? Um, even though those things will be great for some use cases, you're not gonna want them all the time. So, the, the research that we're doing, it's based on the, it's, it's, it's basically, it's input only and it's focused on, so it's not, it's not trying to send signals to your brain. It's trying to make it so that your brain can communicate with the computer. And the, the path that we have is it's based on the fact that we have all these extra motor neurons in our body, right? And, and part of the reason for that is, like, in case you get hurt, you have neuroplasticity, you can rewire, do stuff, like find a different pathway to, to kind of send a signal to move your finger or something. There's all these different ways that it turns out our brain could tell this finger to move, but we've sort of optimized, um, individually, kind of we, we kind of reinforce certain pathways and end up using one, one kind of motor neuron pathway to, to do a specific thing, and you have all these others that are not that used. So, it turns out you can have a device on your wrist that basically your brain can communicate with your hand, um, tell your hand to move in, like, a pattern that it isn't kno- isn't used to, and then the, the wristband can sort of pick up those signals and translate them into completely different things, like having a virtual hand move in front of you while your physical hand is just kind of sitting there at your side.

Joe Rogan 47:12 Whoa.

Mark Zuckerberg 47:12 So, you'll be able to have this experience in the future where, like, you're sitting in a meeting, um, and, you know, your wife texts you and it pops up in the corner of your glasses, and you wanna respond but you don't wanna, like, pull out your phone, 'cause that's kinda rude, right? Um, so you just kinda like, I don't know, twitch your wrist a little bit, maybe like this, like some super discreet motion, um, that no one even knows you're doing it, and you just, like, send a message. And-

Joe Rogan 47:39 That seems like a massive distraction. I mean, people are already distracted by their phones. Like, when people-

Mark Zuckerberg 47:45 Well-

Joe Rogan 47:45 ... get a text message and they're like, "Hu- hang on a second, I just gotta an- answer this real quick." And you're like, "Okay." And you're sittin' there having lunch with someone and they're not talking to you anymore 'cause they're looking at their phone. But now they're gonna be looking at these AR glasses and just thinking out text messages.

Mark Zuckerberg 47:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:59 And you won't, you won't even know that they're distracted. They're just gonna be not connecting with you.

Mark Zuckerberg 48:05 Uh, I don't know. I actually think ... I don't know, one experience that I think has been interesting since I've been doing more Zoom calls, um, especially earlier in the, in the, i- in COVID, one thing that I think actually was quite good, or is quite good, is the ability to both kind of have, have everyone who you're meeting with on video chat, but then also have a chat thread going with some o- of those people so that way, like, let's say there's something that you don't wanna say to everyone who's in the room, but you wanna ask one person. It's like, "Hey, can you clarify this thing that you said?" Or-

Joe Rogan 48:36 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 48:36 ... or you, you, like, don't wanna say something in front of someone. It's like I, I have this issue a lot because there's, like, a lot of confidential information that I have around the, the company and I don't wanna share it with everyone, but I wanna, like, get certain people's opinion on stuff. And if I'm doing a meeting and it's purely physical and, like, everyone is there, I, I've found that, you know, sometimes I, like, have to wait until the meeting is over to go get the answer to the question that I wanted.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 48:56 Whereas, um, when, when I was, if, if I'm kind of having a, a virtual meeting over Zoom or in VR in Workrooms, um, you just, you can just kinda text people while you're doing that. So, I, I actually think that it will unlock a massive amount of efficiency and communication and expression between people to make it so that people don't have to wait, um, until they're done doing one thing to, to send a message to someone else. But, but yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a separate question.... about if you have glasses and you're wa- and you're kind of going about... You know, it's one thing to have VR and you put it on when you wanna go, you know, play a game or do a meeting. In, in the, in the kind of fullness of augmented reality, when you kind of have the glasses and you're c- like, going about that through your whole l- through your life, having some kind of really smart do not disturb mode that has a sense of like, okay, this thing really shouldn't distract you when you're doing something important is gonna be... That's gonna be a really important AI problem too, I think-

Joe Rogan 49:52 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 49:52 ... to be able to kind of simulate and understand, um... 'Cause I don't think it's gonna be as black and white as, like, do not disturb on or off, right? I think you, like, you, you want some intelligence there about, you know, routing and, and kind of understanding which things you're gonna wanna get and which things not.

Joe Rogan 50:05 And maybe have certain people have priority, like if your wife or your family is trying to get ahold of you, they can get through-

Mark Zuckerberg 50:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:10 ... but business people can't get through.

Mark Zuckerberg 50:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 50:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:14 Yeah. I, I worry about additional distractions. I mean, uh, I do not keep my children from social media, 'cause I feel like the world that they live in has social media in it and I don't want them to be just completely disconnected from that. I limit the amount of time they use their phones, and I try to talk to them about the importance of not being, like, completely, uh, absorbed in social media and these kind of things that these kids do. But I, I think it's a part of life, and I, I think it's, uh, it's, it's new and it's weird and it's confusing and it can be very addictive. But I also think it's a part of life. But going out to dinner with them is so hard. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 50:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:53 They just wanna check their... Like, I'm like, "Hey, put your phone down. Stop snapping with your friends." They're always Snapchatting. I'm like, "Stop! Stop doing that."

Mark Zuckerberg 51:01 It's like, well, we gotta stop that.

Joe Rogan 51:02 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 51:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:03 It's like, we just gotta put it aside. Just put it aside. But if you have glasses on, that's gonna be very difficult. It's gonna be very difficult to get people to d- d- you know, especially if glasses have social media applications and also offer some sort of a, a benefit, like a net benefit to, like, the way you view life. Like maybe give you, uh, information on the amount of calories that are-

Mark Zuckerberg 51:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:28 If you pick up a food item-

Mark Zuckerberg 51:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:30 ... like, "What is that?"

Mark Zuckerberg 51:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:31 "Oh, look at all the calories. Oh my god, it's got that oil in it? That's not good for you." Or, you know, uh, other benefits, but also has social media. You're, you're gonna come into this, like, sort of weird place where y- you have to figure out whether or not this is a positive thing in your life-

Mark Zuckerberg 51:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:46 ... or whether or not it's overcoming a- and you're, you're overwhelmed by it.

Mark Zuckerberg 51:51 Yeah, and I think that that's something that... It's gonna end up being this balance, and hopefully our computers and platforms will help us find the reasonable balance on that. I mean, one of the things that you keep, that you've said a few times is, okay, like, "I'm not sure if I'd wanna do this digitally." I, I, I think about, like, it's like, "I wanna have this experience in the real world."

Joe Rogan 52:09 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 52:09 I mean, here, here's one kind of philosophical way that I think about this, is I, I actually think when, when you say the real world, uh, I, I call that the physical world. And I, I think there's the physical world and the digital world, and I think the combination of those increasingly is the real world. Right? It's, you know, it's, uh, like, there's all this additional information that we bring to the physical experiences that we have, that, um, whether it's, whether it's digital or, or just from our own experience or studying that we've done, that's more than just kinda the physical kind of sensation that we get.

Joe Rogan 52:44 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 52:44 Um, but the ratio of that may be shifting over time, right? So in a world in the future where, you know, a lot of the things that might be physical today, I mean maybe these, the, this kind of art and sculptures and stuff that you have here, maybe in the future they're not physical. Maybe they're just holograms because then you can change them really easily. Um, maybe over time the sort of ratio of the amount of physical stuff that we interact with to digital stuff shifts and becomes more balanced or something like that, whereas, you know, historically it was all physical and there was very little kind of information or, or, or digital overlay on top of it. And now I think it's just steadily been increasing. But I mean, it's, I think it's probably gonna be a lot healthier for us, rather than consuming kind of all this additional context through this tiny little portal that we carry around on a phone and you're just kinda like looking at this and you're missing the whole context, I think to have it be able to be overlaid and, you know, have, have kind of people be able to, you know, pop in and interact with them through it, um, I don't know, I think that's gonna be powerful. W- we'll obviously need to get the balance on this right, but it's, um, but I don't know. That's sort of how I think about it. I, I, I think, like, probably the right way to think about the real world is, at this point, as not actually just the physical world.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Mm.

Mark Zuckerberg 53:54 But, but the physical world, I'm, I'm probably more kind of optimistic or believe that the physical world is probably more important to our being and essence and soul than, than I- probably a lot of other people in the industry. (laughs) So, I mean, I, I, I really care about, about getting that, that balance right.

Joe Rogan 54:09 I think the balance is important, but I think you're correct. I think there is a, an ever increasing landscape of digital world that's undeniable, and y- it's a part of life now. And as the technology improves, it's going to be a bigger and bigger part of life. Uh, I, I wouldn't say my fear is, but my thoughts are that we're going to lead to a time some day where people become fully immersed 24/7 in a nonphysical world, and I think that's the matrix, and that's what people are worried about, is that as this technology advances, especially with some sort of neural interface, that we're going to get to a place where we're not really here anymore. We're there always. Like, the, how many people are on, uh, like, how do you, do you limit your social media use? How do you do it?

Mark Zuckerberg 54:54 Uh, me personally?

Joe Rogan 54:55 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 54:55 I mean, I'm just doing so many things that in practice there aren't a- an- as many hours in the day.

Joe Rogan 55:00 You don't have enough time. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 55:00 But, and, and my, my kids, I, I haven't had to think about it quite as much yet because they're pretty young. Um, six and five, right? Um.

Joe Rogan 55:07 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 55:07 Auggie just turned five, um, this weekend. But it's, um, so I mean they use... I actually, I want them to use technology for, for different things. I mean, I, I teach them how to code. I, I think it's like an outlet for, for creativity. Um, I mean, Auggie especially, I mean she... Max likes building things. Auggie thinks about it as art. So when I, whenever, like every, you know, every night I, I try to do bedtime with them religiously, so I try to like end my, my, my meetings in order to be able to put them down and, and, um-... I, I ask them, like, what, what activity they wanna do. "Do you wanna read or do you wanna wrestle or (laughs) whatev- whatever the ..." Then, um ... Or, and, and August just like, "Oh, I wanna do code art." It's like, "Oh." It's like, that's such a interesting way to think about it. I always think about coding as like you're building something, and she just thinks about it as making the computer make art.

Joe Rogan 55:56 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 55:56 So it's just like it's ... So anyhow, um, I, I, I think it's, um ... I think it's good for them to get that exposure, but I don't know. These things, it's not ... Everything that you're doing on a computer or screen isn't the same. There's a lot of research into well-being that shows that there's like, are you actively engaging and are you engaging with a person, are you building relationships, or are you just consuming? And if you're, if you're building a relationship, then that is associated typically with a lot of long-term benefits and well-being, right? 'Cause I mean, the, the relationships that we have in our lives, I, I, I view that as, like, the meaning, right? That's like the, that, that to me is, like, the point, and that, I think over time, is what generally creates happiness for people and, um, and prosperity. But, um, if you're just sitting there and consuming stuff, I mean, it's, it's not necessarily bad, but it generally isn't associated with all the positive benefits that you get from being actively engaged or building relationships.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 56:56 So-

Joe Rogan 56:56 And you could engage with people actively online-

Mark Zuckerberg 56:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:59 ... and build digital relationships. And, uh, especially as technology improves, you could actually have meaningful experiences with someone's avatar.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:07 Yeah. So, I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 57:08 Which is very weird.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:09 So I just wanna make it so that, that the experiences that we're having aren't just these, like, passive things.

Joe Rogan 57:14 Mm-hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:14 So from, from my perspective, there's this, like ... You know, people spend a lot of time with screens today. It's, you know, basically computers, phones, and TVs. And I'm always amazed because I spend all my time on phones and computers that for Americans still almost half the time that they spend on screens is TVs, more than the, more than phones or, or computers. So-

Joe Rogan 57:35 Really?

Mark Zuckerberg 57:35 I mean, yeah. So, I mean, it's ... I think it might have just tipped to being, um, in, in the last few years to being, you know, more phones and computers than TV, but TV is huge.

Joe Rogan 57:45 'Cause I know, like, Netflix and YouTube, I think a giant amount of their-

Mark Zuckerberg 57:48 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 57:49 ... stuff is on phones.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:51 Uh, it's lot on, yeah, it's a lot on phones, but it's a lot on TVs, too.

Joe Rogan 57:53 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:53 And a lot of people are still just watching, you know, cable or, or different-

Joe Rogan 57:56 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 57:56 ... things like that. And so, uh, when you think about new experiences, I actually think the first thing that they're gonna go do is eat TV, right? And, like, and, and kind of the more passive things. So y- you know, when, when people talk about being worried about, um, you know, the time that people are spending in, in different kind of social experiences, I mean, the time has to come from somewhere. I think it's worth looking at where it's coming from. It's, if it's coming from sleep, that's probably not great, right? If it's coming from exercise, like, I wouldn't be that happy with that. If it's coming from TV, I'm pretty fine with that, right?

Joe Rogan 58:29 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 58:29 I think, like, I mean that's actually maybe a net improvement in well-being for people overall if you're shifting from this more beta kind of consuming state to just being actually actively engaged, potentially building relationships. Um, and there's just a ton of TV time to eat, right? So I, I, I think, um, before we worry about this kind of consuming more and more of people's time, I actually just think looking at the mix of what people do today is, is, is good. And I mean, my goal for, for these next set of platforms, they are gonna be more immersive, and hopefully they'll be more useful, but I don't necessarily want the people to spend more time with computers. I just want the time that people spend with screens to be better.

Joe Rogan 59:08 Hmm.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:08 Because, I mean, today, so much of it is like you're just sitting around and, I don't know, in this, like, beta state consuming stuff. And-

Joe Rogan 59:15 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:15 ... I think that that's like ... I don't know. That's ... I mean, so you ask me how do I control my, my own social media time or my time on this stuff, it's like, I mean, I do a l- I do a bunch of social media. I do a lot of messaging. Um, I really don't watch that much TV. And, uh, that's 'cause I just don't have that much ... I don't know. I find it, it, it puts me in this really weird mental state t- it, to ... Unless there's something that I'm just, like, really attached to, right? So, like, I ... And I really like watching, like, UFC, for example, but that's 'cause I also like doing the sport, right? So it's like I have some, some kind of connection to it. Um, but, I don't know, just, like, sitting around watch- it's, it's ... I don't usually, like, get into a, like, a lot of TV shows or stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 59:54 Have you always been a very physical person? 'Cause I follow you on Instagram.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:58 You, I see you wakeboarding and stuff.

Mark Zuckerberg 59:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:59 You're, you're very active, like, which I think is very ... It's a great message, too. It's very ... It's great for you, but it's also a great message for other people that, here's this guy who's incredibly busy. He's ... And his life is, uh, overwhelmed with technology, yet he's constantly doing physical things and using his body and exercising and getting out in nature.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:00:19 Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's something that my parents really stressed for me early on. They're like ... Uh, my parents pushed me pretty hard. They were like, "You're gonna do well in school, and you're gonna be on three varsity sports teams." And, like, and it's just-

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 That's it?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:00:31 Yeah. Well, I mean, and, like, and, you know, a lot of other stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 No, but I mean, like-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:00:34 But it's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 ... that, you don't have any debate. It's it.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:00:37 No, it's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 This is, this is the rule.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:00:38 So it's like, that's, that's just what you're gonna do. So, um, and I'm, I'm super grateful for it. I mean, they, they weren't very prescriptive, right? I mean, they didn't tell me I had to do computers. They didn't tell me which sports I had to do. But they were like, "This is important." Um, but I, I don't know. I mean, I've found that especially as the company has scaled and in some ways become more stressful, it's, like, more important, right? It's ... And my sort of day is like ... It's like, all right, you wake up in the morning, look at my phone. You get, like, a million messages, right, of, of stuff that come in. It's usually not good, right? It's, I mean, p- people-

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:14 People like, people reserve the good stuff to tell me in person, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:17 Um, so but it's, it's like, okay, what's going on in the world that I need to kinda pay attention to that day or ... So it's, it's almost like every day you wake up and you're, like, punched in the stomach. And then it's like, "Okay, well, fuck. Now I need to, like, go reset myself and be able to kinda be productive and not be stressed about this, so how do I do that?" So I basically, I go, I like, I, I read, I take in all the information, and, um, and then ...... I, I go do something physical for an hour or two and, and just kind of reset myself. And over time, what I've found is that it's not actually just, um ... I used to run a lot, but the problem with running is you can think a lot while you're running.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Hmm. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:01:55 Um, so I- I've, um, especially over the last couple of years, I've gotten really into things that require full focus. So, um, you know, at the beginning of, of COVID, I, I, I mentioned that I spent a bunch of time in, in Kauai. Our family has a, has a ranch down there, and like, I spent a lot of time foiling and surfing. And it's like, if you're foiling or, or surfing and you're on, like, a wave, you have to be, you have to pay attention the whole time, right? Or else you're gonna fall and, and maybe get held under. And it's like not, that's, that's not a great experience. I don't know if you, if you surf, but, um ...

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 No, I don't. But I tried foiling-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:30 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:30 ... and I'm an oaf. I couldn't get on the thing.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:32 Well, I-

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 My, my young daughter is really good at it, my 12-year-old, and she just zooms around and gets on that thing, and I just, I couldn't figure it out.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:43 It's, uh, it's, um ... You're talking about the eFoil for that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Yes.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:47 Yeah, that, it's ... I, I bet if you tried it for, like, a few days, you'd get it down pretty well.

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 That's the problem. (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:54 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 I tried it for about three hours and I was like-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:57 But the-

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 ... "Oh my God, this is awful."

Mark Zuckerberg 1:02:59 But the actual foiling, not the eFoil ... I mean, the eFoil weighs like 40 pounds. An actual foil board maybe weighs like 5 to 10 pounds. So, and after you learn how to foil, flying an eFoil is like, it feels like you're flying a tank through the air or something. But it's like, but it's, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a pretty interesting learning curve, but it's, it requires full engagement the whole time.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03:19 Um, and then, I mean, that's sort of, this is sort of-

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 So, it's cleansing.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03:23 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03:24 And this is sort of how I got into MMA, too, is after ... You know, now, now I don't spend as much time in Kauai 'cause things are ramping back up and I'm in the office a lot more. So it's like, all right, there's, there's not as much foiling in, in, in Palo Alto. So it's like, all right, what's a thing that is both, like, just super engaging physically, but also intellectually, and where you can't afford to focus on something else? And I think to some degree, it's like MMA is, like, the perfect thing 'cause it's like if you don't, like, you, you, you stop paying attention for one second, you're gonna end up on the bottom.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:03:55 Right? (laughs) So, um, so it's ... So I, I've just found that that is just really important for me in terms of, like, what I do and being able to just kind of maintain my energy level, maintain my focus. Because then, like, after, you know, an hour or two of, of working out or, you know, rolling or wrestling with friends or, you know, training with, with different folks, it's like now I'm ready to go solve whatever problem at work for the day. And like I've, I've fully processed all the different news for the day that's, that's come in and, um, and we're just ready to go. It's a-

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 How did you get introduced to martial arts training? Like, how long ago was this?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:37 Uh, it was in the last 12 months, actually.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Really?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:40 Yeah, 'cause it was basically I, I, I kind of ... I used to just run a lot and, and, and just do that, and then it was ... And then basically since COVID, it's like got super into surfing and foiling, then got really into MMA.

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 So how did you, uh, how did you, uh, initially approach it? Like, how did you get a trainer? Like, what did you do?

Mark Zuckerberg 1:04:57 Um, I, you know, I know a bunch of people who are, who are into it. There's actually this really interesting connection between people who surf and do jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Oh, yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:05:06 So-

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 A lot of, lot of similarities.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:05:08 Yeah, so, so, um, so a bunch of the guys who I, who I do that with, um, you know, they, they kind of have gyms in, in Kauai and, you know, I've, you know, basically ge- collected a bunch of recommendations, ran them by a bunch of people who I know, and, um, and I, I ended up, um ... I mean, I train with this guy, Dave Camarillo.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 Oh, I know Dave.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:05:29 Um, yeah, Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu and-

Joe Rogan 1:05:31 Yeah.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:05:31 Yeah, so. And he's awesome. He, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 He's great.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:05:33 Yeah, super nice guy, and, um, I, I feel like I'm learning a ton. And the, the crazy thing is, like, I've, um ... I don't know. I mean, it's, it really is the best sport. I, I, I don't ... The, the question isn't how did I get into it, it's how did I not know about it until just now? From, from, from like, from the, from the very first session that I did, like five minutes in, I was like, "Where has this been my whole life?"

Joe Rogan 1:06:00 (laughs)

Mark Zuckerberg 1:06:00 I, like ... It's like, all right, my mom made me th- do three varsity sports and, like, my life took a wrong turn when I chose to do fencing competitively instead of wrestling in high school or something, right? It's like, like, it's like there's something that's just so primal, um, about it that's ... I, I, I don't, I don't know. It's, it's ... And I, I've ... Since then, I've just introduced a bunch of my friends to it, and that's been really fun because now it's like we train together and we just, like, wrestle together, and it just ... I, I don't know. There's, like, a certain intensity to it that I, um, that I, I, I like. And it's, it sort of ... I don't know. Maybe it's like there's this cultural thing where, where maybe a lot of people haven't considered it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 Right.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:06:40 But I've had 100% hit rate of introducing friends to it and converting them to people who now train. Every single person who, who I've like, who I've, who I've kind of shown it to is like, "This is amazing. This is, like, obviously how I should be training and working out."

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 Yeah. That's very impressive that it's 100%. You must have some solid friends 'cause a lot of people get turned off by the amount of effort that's involved, but they get excited by the, the, the problem solving, which is the, the more fascinating part. Like, learning the techniques and focusing on memorizing the techniques and developing the skills and then drilling. Like, uh, that's probably one of the most important things about jujitsu that people don't do enough of is drilling. Like, I made my-

Mark Zuckerberg 1:07:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 ... some of my biggest leaps in martial arts from, like, blue belt to purple belt just through constant drilling. I was drilling all the time with my friend Eddie Bravo. So we were always working on techniques, and so I was able to, like, progress much quicker. And then I noticed when I stopped doing that later, my progress kind of stagnated. It's like there's a v- there's a real clear correlation between the amount of energy you put into drilling and, and, uh, observing the technique and then just going through the motion with, like, someone offering, like, 20%, 30% resistance.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:07:54 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 It's just not as fun.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:07:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 Like, sparring is the most fun. Like, you immediately want to just slap hands and start rolling. It's fun.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:08:00 Yeah. (smacks lips) Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm... I really trust Dave, and, um, but, uh, so I, I think it's also-

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Yeah, Dave's great.

Mark Zuckerberg 1:08:07 Yeah. And, um, and I'm also just depending on what's