Joe Rogan Experience #1863 - Mark Zuckerberg

1. 0:00 – 2:53

   Quest headset demo: lifelike avatars, eye contact, and “social presence”

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) So, uh, your new Oculus is awesome. It's very impressive.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg0:15

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      It's very cool.

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg0:17

      Coming out in October, um, we're gonna be talking about it at our Connect con- uh, at our Connect, uh, conference that's, that's, uh, that's coming up. Um, yeah, pretty excited about it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      It's, um, it's so interesting, the, the, when you put it on ... So I'll just describe it to people. When I put it on, there was an avatar in front of me and it was an alien woman. And the alien woman, when I moved my mouth, she moved her mouth, when I moved my eyes left and right, she, sh- it's tracking my eyes. When I make, like a angry face, like arrr, it makes an angry face. When you go, like, oh, open your m- it's incredible. It, like, you can see the evolution and the progress of this stuff, where it's getting to the point where it's mimicking human patterns in a, a, a kind of a creepy way.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:02

      (laughs) But it's very cool.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg1:03

       Yeah, so, you know, for me, the stuff is all about, like, helping people connect, right? I mean, the, the way that I got into this is, um, you know, I don't know, I just started thinking about, like, what is the ... Like, what would be the ultimate expression of, of basically people using technology to feel present with each other, right? And it's not phones.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Right.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg1:26

       It's not computers. Like, how do you get this, this sensation of actually being present, like you're right there with another person? And that's, to me, what virtual and eventually augmented reality are all about. And there's just this whole technology roadmap that you, that we basically just need to go run down over the next decade to unlock that. So, for the next, uh, device that's coming out in October, um, you know, the, there are a few big features. I mean, the, the one that you're talking about, um, basically social presence. I mean, the ability to, uh, now have kind of eye contact in virtual reality.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:04

       Mm.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg2:04

       Have your face be tracked, so that way, um, your avatar, it's not just like this still thing, um, but if you smile or if you frown or if you pout or, you know, whatever your expression is, have that actually just in real time translate to your avatar. I mean, that's such a ... Obviously, like, our facial expressions are just a huge, um, that's like a ... You know, there's more non-verbal communication when, when people are, are, are with each other than verbal communication. Uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       You had a really good point too, about, uh, face tracking in like a, if you're doing like a FaceTime call, that you don't look each other in the eye.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg2:35

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Because you're looking at the camera to look in the eye, and then you don't see the person. So if you look at the camera, you're, you know, you're looking up, and if you look at the, you know, look down at the actual screen, you're l- you're, you're not making eye contact with the person. But this is able to recreate actual eye contact-

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg2:52

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       ... with the avatar.

2. 2:53 – 6:07

   How VR convinces the brain: latency, comfort, and choosing the right signals

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg2:53

      Yeah, no, this will be the, the, the first time really to do that. Um, you know, I mean, when we're using technology today, I mean, it's, it's great to be able to make phone calls and video calls and all that. I mean, if you can't be with someone today, you know, it's nice to be able to see their face. But when you're on a video call, you don't actually feel like you're there with the person, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:10

      Right.

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg3:10

      I mean, you get some signal, some information, you can see their face, but, um, the whole time you're, you're kind of trying to convince your brain that you're actually there with them, but your brain knows, right? It's like at a, at kind of like a deep level-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:24

      Yeah.

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg3:24

      ... that, that's ... You're, you're, you're not actually there with them, you're just getting some information about what they, what they look like. And to me, what, what virtual reality unlocks is it basically really convinces your brain that you're there. I mean, when you're in there, you're, you're, um, you know, you're, you have to basically try to convince your brain that, that this isn't real, right?And that you're not present.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:48

      Yeah.

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg3:48

      So, and there are all these just subtle signals, um, and things that either, that either deepen the illusion or, um, or break it. Um, that, that, you know, each time we, we do a new, a new version, we, we just try to, uh, you know, break down a few more of the barriers, so. And one of the big ones early on ... Well, the, the first one obviously was just like having, having a headset and being able to look around. And for that, one of the key things that ... Your eye basically refreshes, I don't know, call it every five milliseconds or something. So if you turn your head and the image isn't kind of refreshed to where you're looking within five milliseconds, then there's this huge mismatch between your visual system and your vestibular system and your, your kind of balance and your ear. And people used to kind of feel uncomfortable from that, right? Like, 'cause it's like a physical discomfort because it, like, what you were looking at didn't match, um, kind of, uh, uh, as you were rotating your head. So that was kind of the first thing. Then we got hands, and there was this whole thing that was super interesting there where at first we wanted to, you know, display your whole arm, um, which makes sense, right? 'Cause I mean, it's, it's, you'd think, okay, it's a little weird to just see your hand. But it turns out that your, your brain is perfectly willing to just accept seeing your hand without your arm-

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:05

      (laughs)

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg5:06

      ... as long ... Because your hand is the thing that it's trying to manipulate. And as a matter of fact, when, um, if we kind of interpolated and got your arm position wrong, right? So we'd get into these cases where your hands were here and we'd sort of guess that your, your arm was like that or something. And if your arm was actually like that, but we displayed it so that it was in like that, you're like, "Ah, my elbow's broken." Right? Like, it felt like really wrong. So it's, so it's actually much better to show a limited number of signals, but get them right, and then you can just add on over time. So, for previous versions before this, we didn't ... The, the kind of eye contact was all just, um, you know, AI simulated: but we didn't actually know when you were making eye contact because we weren't tracking the eyes. And now for, for this version and, um, hopefully, you know, a lot of the different ones that we build going forward, you'll be able to, you know, have realistic facial expressions and, um, and, and, and more translated directly to your avatar. But there's this whole road map of basically how do you deliver this like real sense of presence like you're there with another person no matter where you actually are?

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       It was very impressive 'cause even when I moved my jaw side to side, went like arrr-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg6:07

       Yeah.

3. 6:07 – 8:01

   Full-body immersion vs convenience: haptics, inside-out tracking, and glasses ambitions

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:07

      It did that. It made the O face like, hoo. It, it's, it's really interesting. And, you know, you were saying also that w-... what, what this- the way this is tracking is y- y- you're, you're doing this without putting something on your body, without putting trackers on your body. But do you ultimately think that that's, like, uh, w- are we gonna go Ready Player One, where you have, like, a haptic feedback suit and you have to zip this thing up to get into a game and, and, and in that way you're gonna be fully immersive? Or do you think that it can get to the point where it can mimic the movements of your body accurately without you having to wear something?

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg6:44

      So I, I think that there will be opportunities to wear things to augment the experience further. Right? So we, we already have these experiments with haptic gloves where you can, like, if you touch a digital object, right? If you drop a ball from one hand to the other, you can feel the ball in your hand physically, um, and that's pretty cool. But I, I wanna design this in a way where you don't need that. Right? So today there's two primary modes of doing the tracking. I mean, there's this kind of notion of inside-out tracking. You're wearing the headset and it tracks your motion, it tracks your hands, um, eventually it'll track your legs with an AI model. Um, and you can do that all with your headset. And the big advantage of that is you don't need to, you don't need to have a whole lot of different devices, right? Eventually you'll be able to do it without even having controllers, you'll just have the headset. The headset will get smaller, it'll be more portable, you'll be able to bring it around. You don't wanna have a setup that has, like, 10 pieces, right?

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:36

      Right.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg7:36

      I mean, it's, I mean, maybe, uh, there are, there are gonna be times when you wanna kind of have that sort of super deep experience or maybe you have it at your home, but I think ultimately people are gonna just wanna have versions of this that they can bring around and, you know, whether it's on an airplane or you're doing work at the office or you're going to a coffee shop or whatever. And for that you, you really just wanna make it work from the device. Um-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:57

      So just from a pair of glasses or something along those lines?

4. 8:01 – 14:35

   Augmented reality path: waveguides, holograms, and mixed reality as a bridge

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg8:01

      Yeah. I mean, right now there's, there's kind of two ... the concepts of virtual reality and augmented reality are sort of on two different development paths, but they're, they're, they're obviously fundamentally interrelated. Right? So virtual reality, it's, it's kind of possible to build today, right? Quest 2, it's, you know, pretty popular, doing well. Hopefully the new one that, that comes out, um, I think it's a pretty big step, um, a- a- above it. Um, but you can, you can build that today. There's a lot of new technology that we've researched that goes into that. But it also is building on top of decades of advances and displays that, um, came from TVs and then laptops and phones, and some of the display technology, um, gets to piggyback on that, those decades of innovation and, you know, all these different companies that have done that work b- before. AR is a pretty different beast, um, because what you really want to get to is not a headset. You wanna get to something that's like a normal-looking pair of glasses, um, that is, you know, I mean, it won't be like a wire frame because you'll need to fit some electronics in it, right? You'll basically need to have a, a computer in there and speakers and a microphone and batteries and a laser projector. And then the display, which, you know, we and a- a lot of other folks think are is gonna be this technology called waveguides, um, which it's completely different from screens, because it's, a screen, it's like you're looking at a thing, um, and, and basically you're looking at, like, all the pixels that are on the screen. The thing that's, that's different about a waveguide is it'll actually be see-through, so you'll be able to see the world through it, and then it'll display holograms, um, and be able to place them at different depths in the world.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:44

      So is a waveguide a type of technology? Like, what, what is a waveguide?

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg9:47

      Yeah. It's, um, it's, it's basically, it's, you know, it's a ... they can be made of different, um, different substances, plastic, glass, um, you know, different, different substrates. Um, and they basically get etched or printed in different ways, and there's this big debate right now where a lot of the research is going into what is the right way to basically create the, these waveguides that have the right properties, 'cause you, you want, um, for, for augmented reality to get something that's wide enough field of view. So, you know, you can imagine in five years we're having this conversation. I'm not here. You're wearing AR glasses. Hologram Mark is here. And, like, it's, so it's not only just is, is it kind of working as a hologram, but there's all these different dimensions beyond, um, just being, like, a, a better video chat. If we want to play poker, you know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:39

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg10:39

      ... it's like I could, you know, I, I could, like, deal a deck of cards and we could play. Hologram m- me, um, could, you know, deal hologram cards and you could have your glasses and physical you there could pick up the hologram cards and then you can have a, a poker night where, like, some of your friends are there physically and some of them are there as, as holograms. And it's, it's actually kind of wild. One of the thought experiments that I like to do is, um, thinking about how few of the things that we physically have in the world actually need to be physical. Um, you know, obviously things like chairs need to be physical, right? You're not gonna be sitting on-

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg11:13

      ... a hologram. Food needs to be physical. Um, but most entertainment-type stuff, I mean, not just cards, but games, most media. TVs in the future probably won't need to actually be physical things. It'll just be like a, an app, like a, we'll just have an app there on your, on your wall and, you know, it's like snap your fingers, get the hologram there for the TV and we can have our glasses and watch whatever you want there and, I don't know, they're sort of limited to being rectangular now because a bunch of, you know, limits in, in terms of the physics of how they get produced. But in the future you'll just have like some, you know, high school students or college students developing apps and it'll just be wild. Like, cra- crazy stuff will, will just kind of get created. And, and, but so yeah, so you'll, you'll eventually be able to kind of have that all come through, um, through these AR glasses.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:02

      So are there, these AR glasses, uh, uh, are they in production now? Are they in development now? Like when you-

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg12:09

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       ... when you talk about this kind of technology where you can see things that aren't there and-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg12:12

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:13

       ... l- look at maps and watch videos and have it all on a small computer that's in a, the frame of a glasses.

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg12:19

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       Do they exist already?

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg12:21

       No. Uh, uh, I think the ... we'll start to get ...... stuff that, that kind of looks like the full version of this over the next, I, I'd say three to five years. Um, but I think it'll also start off pretty expensive, um, once, once it's available, and then it'll take a while to work down to something that's, like, hundreds of dollars. Um, but there are versions of this that you can start to see, um, if you relax some of the constraints, right? So the, the kind of ultimate AR experience is that, like, okay, you just have normal-looking glasses that can, that can kind of have all of these, um, have holograms and make it so you can interact with people wherever, wherever you want. But, um, if you relax the form factor constraint, right, so you have a headset instead of, um, instead of normal-looking glasses, that's the other thing that's coming in the new device that we're shipping in October, is mixed reality in VR, right? So we, we got to play around with this a little bit in the, um, in the sword-fighting, um, ex- experience that we did, but it's ... You know, basically, the, the thing about mixed reality is, is you, you see the physical world around you. Um, in, in the context of VR, it's not happening through a wave guide. It's basically happening through you have cameras on the device that capture the world and then translate that in real time into stereo images. So different images in both eyes so that way you can, um ... Yeah, 'cause otherwise it's, it's weird, and we're, we, we kind of see stuff in, in, in, you know, 3D because we have two im- we, our two eyes see slightly different things, so you're kind of... The, the computers are putting that together on the fly, and, um, and then you can overlay digital objects on top of that. So when we were, you know, sword fighting, it's like the version of me and my sword, it's like that was a digital thing, but otherwise it was in your lobby, right, and you could see your lobby.

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:05

       Yeah.

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg14:05

       So, so you could start to see those kind of AR experiences starting to get built, but in a, um, form factor around mixed reality VR first. So that's one, one direction that I think that the, that the, that the industry is exploring. The other is basically looking at, okay, so we got to constrain this form factor 'cause we wanna have something that looks like normal glasses. What's the most technology that we can fit into a pair of normal-looking glasses today, right? So you kind of go from both sides, right? It's like what's the experience that

5. 14:35 – 17:54

   Smart glasses today: Ray-Ban partnership, photos/video, and privacy indicators

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg14:35

      we want to have even if we can't get the form factor right, and what's the best we can do with the form factor? And then each year those two basically converge. But on the, um, on the smart glasses side, and we work with Ray-Ban to basically build these smart glasses, and they're the best-selling smart glasses that, that have, that have ever been built, and they're, um, you know, it's, we'll, we're continuing to work on new versions of it, but they're ... You know, basically you can get a pair of, of Ray-Ban Wayfarers now that, um, that have a microphone and that they have a speaker and they can take photos and take videos-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      Really?

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg15:07

      ... and you can post them to Instagram. Yeah, it's, it's-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      They do it on voice command?

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg15:11

      Yep. Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      Oh, so you could say, "Take a photo of this"?

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg15:13

      Yep. Take a photo, take a video, um-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      And what, what kind of image quality are you getting off of these things?

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg15:18

      Um, it's pretty good. It's, um ... I, I want to make sure I don't get the, the spec wrong and I just have all these different numbers in my head because I, I want to make sure I don't confuse it with the new version.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       Is it, like, similar to, like, a selfie camera? Like-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg15:30

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:30

       ... limited in-

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg15:31

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:31

       ... comparison to the back camera?

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg15:32

       Yeah. No. It's not quite as good as the, as the back cameras today, but it's, um ... But yeah. No. It's, it's like, I mean, you look at the, the quality and it's good. Um, and y- and it fits in, like, the corner of a, of glasses.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       Does that bring about privacy concerns if people could just, like, start filming things?

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg15:49

       Yeah. So, I mean, we designed it so it has a light on it, so whenever the-

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Oh.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg15:53

       Yeah. I mean that's, that I think is actually a really important part of this that-

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       Well, could you put a piece of tape over the light?

   21. MZMark Zuckerberg15:58

       I, I mean, I guess in theory, but-

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       If you were a creep.

   23. MZMark Zuckerberg16:00

       ... but it's, um ... Yeah, there you go.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       There it is.

   25. MZMark Zuckerberg16:02

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:02

       So that little thing in the corner, is that a highlight or a light?

   27. MZMark Zuckerberg16:06

       Uh, no, that's the light.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:07

       That's the light.

   29. MZMark Zuckerberg16:07

       And it, and it blinks-

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Okay.
6. 17:54 – 21:04

   What people actually do in VR: from gaming to social hangouts and fitness

   1. MZMark Zuckerberg17:54

      you know, Xbox or PlayStation or those kind of platforms and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:57

      Really?

   3. MZMark Zuckerberg17:57

      Yeah. So when we started off, this was sort of my theory on this is like, all right, gaming is use case number one for, for VR, but then pretty quickly ... And if you look at any c- any platform, right? So computers, phones before, games are, are a huge part of those platforms, but, um, if you look at the main things that people do, it's really about communication, 'cause, I mean, this is what people do, right? It's like we, we communicate and, you know, that's kind of how we get meaning in our life is interacting with other people.So it's like, all right, that's gonna happen with VR, and sure enough, if you look at the top apps in VR now, um, the top few are basically social metaverse, hang out with your friends apps, that are not centered around any specific game. Um, so that kind of hypothesis around, okay, VR is starting to add different use cases, it's going from games first... Games are, are still growing and gonna be huge, to, um, just kind of social, hang out with friends, be present. And we're getting all these other use cases that are, that are kind of crazy and are happening sooner than I thought. So, you know, another big one is fitness, right? Just because, I mean, in a way, I mean, these are like the first physical computing platforms.

   4. JRJoe Rogan19:06

      Yeah.

   5. MZMark Zuckerberg19:06

      It's like, you don't, you don't, like, move around while you're on your computer. I guess you could a little bit on your phone, but it's sort of awkward because you're looking at the small screen. But, like, VR and eventually AR are really designed to be able to move around and do things and, like, interact with the world, and that's really important to me. I mean, it's like, I, I just, like, I hate sitting in front of a desk, right? It's like I, I just feel like if I'm not, like, active, I'm, I'm like wasting my day. Um, so I don't know, there have been these awesome experiences that basically a couple of companies, um, you can kind of think about it like Peloton for VR-

   6. JRJoe Rogan19:36

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MZMark Zuckerberg19:36

      ... where, you know, it's like Peloton, they sell you the bike or the treadmill and then you buy the subscription and you get the, the classes. There's a couple of companies that basically do, you know, they do cardio, they do dancing, they do boxing, but instead of having to buy a bike, you just have your Quest headset and once you have that, you buy a subscription to, to these, these companies. Um, and you can just take lessons, um, and, and do different things and, and fitness and it's, it's, um... I, I thought that was pretty wild. I thought that, like, in the long term, something like that would start to happen, but it happened way sooner than I thought, um, which was really cool to, to see.

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:11

      Well, if you do one of the boxing games, you realize right away, like, this is a really good workout.

   9. MZMark Zuckerberg20:15

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:15

       Like, it, it... The virtual boxer, when they come towards you, and they're in that ring, and they start throwing punches at you and you're moving your head-

   11. MZMark Zuckerberg20:22

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan20:23

       ... you really wind up getting, uh, uh, like, a really high heart rate. You, you put out a lot of energy. It's really good cardio. I found, like, my feet would hurt-

   13. MZMark Zuckerberg20:33

       Huh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan20:33

       ... because I was pivoting and moving so much because I was, like, constantly, like, switching stances and trying to get away with, from punches. And as you get, get further on in some of the games, like, the opponents become more difficult.

   15. MZMark Zuckerberg20:46

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:46

       It's really exciting. It's fun. And you get out of there and you're really exhausted. It's a really good workout.

   17. MZMark Zuckerberg20:51

       Yeah, so I mean, and that's just the, the kind of nature of the whole platform, and that's one of the things that I love about it. But it's... I mean, those aren't even trying to be fitness apps, right?

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:01

       Right, they're just fun.

   19. MZMark Zuckerberg21:02

       I mean, the, the ones that... Yeah, it's just that, that they just happen to be physical.

7. 21:04 – 23:04

   Multiplayer combat and the limits of embodiment: boxing, Muay Thai, and jiu-jitsu

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:04

      Are they, um, capable of having two people, like, we, we had a fencing match-

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg21:08

      Uh-huh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:09

      ... today, you and I did.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg21:09

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:10

      Which was really fun. Are they capable of doing that with boxing now, where two people have a b- Because the thing about the fencing match that we had that I thought was really interesting is like you've, we're facing one direction-

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg21:20

      Uh-huh.

   7. JRJoe Rogan21:20

      ... like 30 feet away, and I was facing another direction. Like, we weren't even facing each other. It didn't even matter.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg21:27

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:27

      So you could be in Bangladesh and I can be in Rome-

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg21:31

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:31

       ... and we could be playing a game together.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg21:34

       Yeah, so, I mean, the, the fencing demo, our internal team built because we haven't released the new device yet, so in order to kind of make stuff work for, we, we kind of built it ourselves. But the, the boxing ones are, are made all by other game developers and different developers. So-

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:49

       And they can do that, where-

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg21:50

       Yeah, there's nothing stopping them from having a multiplayer mode.

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:53

       Oh.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg21:53

       I'm not sure if any of them do yet. I, I... All the ones that I've played. I mean, I do Thrill of the Fight, and I do... and I really like Creed, but I, I, I do those as, um, as single player. I don't, I don't know if they have multiplayer modes, but there's nothing holding them back from doing that. So I'd imagine that they will add that over time.

   17. JRJoe Rogan22:07

       It seems like a smart move. I mean, we were talking about martial arts, like, in, in terms like Muay Thai and, and other... I think jujitsu would be a real problem, but, you know, because you'd have to physically have something to resist against. But if you could figure out how to do a Muay Thai mode where... The only problem would be things change when you make contact with stuff.

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg22:30

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:30

       Things change in terms of, like, positioning and movement and what you're able to get away with and not get away with. Whereas with boxing, boxing is pretty good for that. Like, it's probably, like, the best combat sport for VR because you don't even have to hit anything for it to feel like you kind of are.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg22:46

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:47

       And when you get hit with a jab, your, your screen lights up-

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg22:50

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:50

       ... like you feel like you got hit.

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg22:52

       Yeah, I mean, for kicking. With punching, it's a little easier to, to throw a punch and then just pull it back. With kicking, if you, if you're not hitting a pad or something-

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Yeah.

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg22:59

       ... you want to, like, continue rotating or else it's tough to really put-

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:02

       Yeah.

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg23:03

       ... your, put your weight into it.

8. 23:04 – 30:31

   Matrix questions and simulation theory: how far can “presence” go?

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:04

      It's, um... Do you envision a world where one day the physical experience of the game is going to be inconsequential because everything is going to be taking place in your mind? Like, it'll be so good, whether it's with haptic feedback or some other kind of input where you'll be able to actually experience very Matrix-like something that's not there? I mean, is that ultimately where all this is going?

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg23:32

      I don't know. I mean... I, I just think that so much of our experience is our body and not just our mind.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:40

      Right.

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg23:40

      I mean, there's this strain of, of kind of philosophical thought that's like, okay, what is a human? It's like, your... It's really just your brain, right? It's... And I don't subscribe to that at all because... I mean, I don't know what you're... how, how you feel about stuff, but, like, I, I just feel like my whole energy level and mood and kind of how I kind of interact with the world is all just based on... It's like, it's, it's so physical, right? It's not just-

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:05

      Yeah.

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg24:05

      You know? So I don't, I don't... I mean, I guess maybe over time it would be possible to just simulate that through your brain, but I don't believe that we're just brains in tanks, um, or just brains in a body. Um, I, I kind of think our, our kind of physical being and the actions that we take there are as much or, I don't know, that, that's like just as much of kind of the experience of being human.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:30

      I-I would agree with that, but I would also say that a lot of people just like to sit down and watch movies.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg24:35

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:35

      And that's a very alien experience to the human body.

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg24:37

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan24:37

       And it's something we've become very accustomed to. So, what I'm thinking is if technology advances, and it keeps going further in the direction that it's headed now, more immersive, more convincing, you know, that uncanny valley gets bridged, and all of a sudden you have a, a real-life experience. Now, whether this is through some sort of a Neuralink-type deal-

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg25:00

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:00

       ... or some new technology that tricks the mind into actual experiences, I mean, ultimately, isn't that where this is all gonna go? Where you're going to be able to have experiences without having them? And that's not to negate the beauty of real experiences or not to say we won't have real experiences anymore. But if you wanted to have a real experience, and we talked about, like, um, y- you know, economic restrictions that would keep you from being able to fly to another part of the world, well, you could go there with your Oculus. You c- you could, you know, have a, a very realistic, 3D representation of those pl- like, you took me to Rome today. I saw, I got to see Rome. It's very cool. But do you think that ultimately that is going to get to a par, uh, to a time where it's, the technology is so advanced that it's indiscernible, that you, you would have, you could have a podcast experience with me, you and I could have this, this same conversation right now, but neither one of us be in this room?

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg25:56

       Yeah, I think the nature of technology is that... I think it's... It's interesting to sort of hypothesize what the, kind of, extreme end state is gonna be when something-

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:08

       Yeah.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg26:08

       ... becomes kind of all-consuming. But I think the normal way this stuff plays out is that some things are more easily mimickable or replaceable than others. So, we were talking before about, okay, boxing, yeah, you can do that pretty well. Maybe one day we'll get Muay Thai and kicking in. Jujitsu, that's gonna be pretty hard, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:27

       Yeah.

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg26:27

       Because y- you need, like, all kinds of resistance. So, I, I, I mean, I think the way that this progresses is, like, you'll... It'll keep on being able to do more things really well, and I would guess that there will be other technologies or other things will advance in the world that will prevent any one thing from ever subsuming everything else. Um, so, I, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I, I also, I mean, maybe just 'cause I'm in the, I'm in the position of, like, working on building this stuff every day, so it, maybe it just, it's, it's, like, like, I'm just trying to make it useful for a lot of things, right? So, to, to jump to, like, it's so useful that it's better than everything is, like, is sort of, um... Yeah, I'm, I'm just not, I mean, that's, that's so far ahead of where we actually are, 'cause I'm, like, in the trenches every day trying to-

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:14

       Right.

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg27:14

       ... trying to get this to work for-

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:15

       Maybe too close to it.

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg27:17

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:17

       But from a bird's-eye view, like, if you looked at where this is going, it's going to become more immersive, right?

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg27:23

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:23

       It's going to get better. It's going to be more convincing. And this is the real argument for simulation theory, right? The argument for sim- simulation theory is if there's so many c- civilizations out there in the universe and they're so advanced, ultimately one has to create a simulation. It seems like that's going to happen. If the, if the human race could survive another 100,000 years, the odds we wouldn't create a, a really realistic simulation is probably pretty low.

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg27:54

       Yeah, I think the question is just how, how realistic and how good.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:57

       Yeah.

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg27:57

       So, I think that there's... Uh, to me, there, like, the Holy Grail is building something that can create a f- a sense of human presence, right? It's like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:05

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg28:05

       I mean, I've spent the last almost 20 years of my life building social software, um, you know, b- making it so you, whatever limited com- computation you have, you can kind of share something about your experience, and, you know, it started off with primarily text, right, when I was in college. Then we all got these smartphones and they had cameras, so then it became a lot of photos. Now the mobile networks are good enough that it's starting to be a lot more video. And to me, this kind of, like, immersive experience is clearly going to be the next step. But there's this question about, okay, so being able to feel like you're present with someone will unlock so many different types of value for a lot of people, and there's, like, social and entertainment, there's professional. I mean, one of, um, you know, I follow this, this economist who basically studies that economic opportunity and, and upward mobility is sort of limited, um, or, or varies based on, like, what, what ZIP code you grow up in, right? Because there's different opportunities in different places. But, you know, imagine if you didn't have to, you know, move to some city that didn't have your values in order to be able to get all the economic opportunities, that would be awesome. So, in the future where you can just use AR or VR and teleport in the morning to the office-
9. 30:31 – 34:53

   Remote work, efficiency, and the hidden cost of losing hallway moments

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:31

      It's gonna be a real issue for commercial real estate.

   2. MZMark Zuckerberg30:35

      ... um-

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:36

      (laughs) There's not gonna be a lot of offices. If that actually becomes, like, as good as having a cell phone in your pocket and being able to make a phone call-

   4. MZMark Zuckerberg30:44

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:44

      ... you could just sort of teleport to work-

   6. MZMark Zuckerberg30:46

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:47

      ... it's gonna be a problem. No one's gonna wanna work.

   8. MZMark Zuckerberg30:50

      Well, that's a different question. I-

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:51

      Mean, whether or not they're gonna-

   10. MZMark Zuckerberg30:52

       ... I think-

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:52

       ... physically wanna be there, rather. They'll, they'll, m- maybe they'll wanna work.

   12. MZMark Zuckerberg30:56

       Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:56

       But they're not gonna wanna go to the office.

   14. MZMark Zuckerberg30:58

       Yeah, I mean, maybe, although I, I think being physically, uh, b- being present with people, feeling a sense of presence is pretty important-

   15. JRJoe Rogan31:05

       Yeah.

   16. MZMark Zuckerberg31:05

       ... regardless of where you do it. I mean, I've found, you know, over the last couple of years, the way that stuff, the, the work has been done has changed a huge amount and, you know, it's, there, there are all these things that are sort of complex about the office. But like, I mean, I see people in person almost every day. Uh, sometimes I, I probably do more meetings at my house now than I, than I would have before. Um, but, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I do think that there's... Seeing people in, in, in, in, in person, having that sense of presence makes a big, makes a big difference.

   17. JRJoe Rogan31:34

       I think so too, but there's definitely a big pushback now about people going to the office, v- w- wh- uh, rather than working from home. Like, people would rather just do their work from home and they're like, "With the internet connections as they are today-

   18. MZMark Zuckerberg31:49

       Oh, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:50

       ... and the ability to video conference, like, why do I have to be physically in the building in order to get my work done?"

   20. MZMark Zuckerberg31:54

       Yeah, no, and I agree with that, too. Um, you know, uh, our company is actually pretty forward-leaning on remote work. I mean, just especially some types of work, especially software engineering, you can do pretty well from a lot of different places and if you're an engineer, sometimes it's actually better to not be in the office, because then people aren't bugging you. You kind of want, like, a block of, like, five hours where you can just work on a problem. And if-

   21. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       Hmm.

   22. MZMark Zuckerberg32:17

       ... I don't know. It's like, I have this thing where, you know, it's I'll, I'll be, like, in zone kind of flow concentration working on something and, you know, my wife will, like, ask me some, some, like, basic question and I'll just be like, "Ah, man." It's like I just, like, lost my flow.

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       Yep.

   24. MZMark Zuckerberg32:31

       And-

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:31

       Yeah.

   26. MZMark Zuckerberg32:32

       ... and it's like, um, and, like, from, from her perspective, it's like, "Oh, not, not a big deal. It was a, a quick question. Just go back to what you were doing." It's like, "No, that's not how it works." (laughs) But, but it's, um, but so I, I do think to some degree, having people be able to work remotely, um, is, is actually pretty useful for a lot of things. But I thi- I think we'll need to find this mix. I think we'll need to find the mix.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       I physically run away from my wife when I have a joke idea. If she's talking and I, I have an idea, I, I will just run away. I just go, "I got an idea. I just have to..." like, she gets it, so it's okay. But yeah, if I'm in the middle of writing-

   28. MZMark Zuckerberg33:05

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       ... and she comes in and interrupts, it's f- it's over.

   30. MZMark Zuckerberg33:08

       Yeah.
10. 34:53 – 43:03

    Virtual communities and identity play: comedy clubs, VRChat, and spatial memory vs Zoom

    1. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       Yeah, I think people are still gonna crave real world experiences no matter what. You know, obvi- obviously, uh, I do standup comedy, so obviously that experience, you must be there.

    2. MZMark Zuckerberg35:04

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan35:04

       Like, that's part of the fun is being in a room with people. But I can ev- I can envision technology improving to the point where you could create a virtual s- comedy club and you would see all of the different people that have the headsets on in the room-

    4. MZMark Zuckerberg35:20

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan35:20

       ... and you would get, probably get pretty close. Like, there was a lot of people that did Zoom standup during the pandemic and it was awful 'cause there was no audience. They were just basically, like, doing their act with no crowd.

    6. MZMark Zuckerberg35:32

       Hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan35:32

       I'm like, "Don't, don't do that."

    8. MZMark Zuckerberg35:33

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan35:33

       Don't do that.

    10. MZMark Zuckerberg35:34

        Yeah, you need the feedback.

    11. JRJoe Rogan35:34

        (laughs) It's terrible.

    12. MZMark Zuckerberg35:35

        It's, it's super awkward just doing-

    13. JRJoe Rogan35:36

        It's terrible.

    14. MZMark Zuckerberg35:36

        ... doing public speaking and not having any feedback.

    15. JRJoe Rogan35:38

        Well, i- i- l- if someone's just doing public feedback, there's, like, some really great podcasts where people just, like Bill Burr, just talks to himself. It's just him ranting about life and stuff and it's great. He doesn't necessarily need someone to bounce off of. But comedy is a different thing. Like, comedy by itself with no audience is not good-

    16. MZMark Zuckerberg35:59

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan35:59

        ... (laughs) it's just-

    18. MZMark Zuckerberg36:00

        Yeah. So there actually, there is already at least one experience like this that I'm aware of.

    19. JRJoe Rogan36:05

        Really?

    20. MZMark Zuckerberg36:05

        So we have this Horizon social platform and people can build worlds in it. And it's like, it's, it's pretty simple today, but w- it's designed to be this really easy world building platform and people can go in and build stuff. And people built this thing called the Soapstone Comedy Club. And this is actually one o- one of the stories that I've heard of people using VR that I think is really touching. So there's this woman who, who basically, uh, who, uh, lost her son and, um, was really sad and was grieving for a while and comedy was just a really important outlet for her, but she had a lot of social anxiety around going and physically being in front of people and performing and doing it at a club. So she started doing it at the Soapstone Comedy Club and, you know, had a little bit more anonymity 'cause it was in, it was in virtual reality-

    21. JRJoe Rogan36:46

        Hmm.

    22. MZMark Zuckerberg36:46

        ... but she could feel a real sense of presence of other people there. And-... I mean, talking to her about it, it's like, it's been, you know, a real important experience for her to, to kind of be this creative outlet and help her get over this grieving that she's had. And it's not something maybe that she would have been comfortable having the kind of full intensity experience of a physical comedy club, but, um, but you kind of got a bunch of the way there by feeling like you were present with people there.

    23. JRJoe Rogan37:11

        Hmm. Um, my friend, Brian Redband, he does this thing called Virtual Redband, where it ... What does he do? He does like ... They go to diners and stuff like that. They set it up-

    24. MZMark Zuckerberg37:20

        Mm-hmm. VR Chat.

    25. JRJoe Rogan37:21

        Yeah. So he does it in Oculus, and he, you know, has a bunch of his friends log on at the same time, and they go into a room together and hang out. And it's really interesting-

    26. MZMark Zuckerberg37:30

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan37:30

        ... because I think that there ... Like, to be able to have an online community where you go to a place and you all meet up and you're all, like, talking and hearing each other's voices-

    28. MZMark Zuckerberg37:41

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan37:41

        ... and seeing the avatar move. And, like, that alien avatar that you showed me today, it's very real-looking. I mean, it do- I, I clearly see that it's this animated thing-

    30. MZMark Zuckerberg37:51

        Yeah.
11. 43:03 – 50:14

    Neural interfaces (input-only): wrist-based control, attention, and “do not disturb” AI

    1. JRJoe Rogan43:03

       ... to the desk. It's cool. It's ... I mean, uh, look, I love the fact that there's people like you out there doing it, that it's, it's expanding the possibilities for this stuff. But n- so neural interfaces-

    2. MZMark Zuckerberg43:13

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan43:13

       ... what are your thoughts on that? Like, where, where does, where is that going? And where are we at right now?

    4. MZMark Zuckerberg43:18

       Yeah, so-I, I think, you know, so go, go back to your comments about the matrix before.

    5. JRJoe Rogan43:22

       Yeah.

    6. MZMark Zuckerberg43:22

       I think when, when people think about neural interfaces, or any interface, I think it's important to separate out their, sort of, um, there's feedback that you're giving to the computer, and then there's information that the computer gives to you. And you can separate those two things out. So, I, I actually think the, the super hard part here is going to be having a computer give you information straight into your brain, and that's not a thing that we're working on. So, um, some people, I mean like, like Elon with Neurolink and those companies, I think, it's, I mean that's just taking this, like, super far off. I mean, maybe it'll be ready in, like, a couple decades. I mean, there will probably be interesting use cases in the nearer term for people who have injuries or something like that. But I think, um, you know, normal people, I think, in the next 10 or 15 years are probably not gonna wanna get something just installed in their brain for fun is my, is my guess. Um-

    7. JRJoe Rogan44:13

       I don't wanna be an early adopter. (laughs)

    8. MZMark Zuckerberg44:15

       Yeah. I, I think you, you want, like, the mature version of that, not like the-

    9. JRJoe Rogan44:18

       Yeah.

    10. MZMark Zuckerberg44:18

        ... not the one that, where it's gonna get a lot better next year and you need to, like, get your brain implant, um, upgraded every year. So, but, but here's the, the kind of version of this that I spent a lot of time thinking about. So, you have AR glasses, right, and how are you gonna control them? Right, I mean, uh, how you, how you kind of control any, any, any computation device is, is obviously, it's super fundamental to what the platform is. So, you have a bunch of different modes. Um, you know, one of them is gonna be voice, right? You'll be able to talk to it. But that's not, that doesn't always work, right, if you're in a public place or, um, you, you wanna be discreet or you wanna just not annoy the people around you, you, you don't, you're not gonna wanna dictate everything out loud. A second way is going to be, you know, using your hands. So, let's say, okay, it's like I snap my fingers, we have a chess game, right, or, or a poker game, and okay, here's, here's our, our, our chess board and I, I move a piece. It's like, okay, yeah, that I'll do with my hands, that's kinda cool, but, like, you're not gonna be walking down the, the s- like, the sidewalk, like, manipulating stuff with your hands. I mean, that, that I think-

    11. JRJoe Rogan45:18

        Minority Report style.

    12. MZMark Zuckerberg45:19

        Um, yeah, I mean, I think at some basic level, if you can get past that just being weird, um, I think most people's hands will just get tired, right? (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan45:28

        Yeah.

    14. MZMark Zuckerberg45:28

        I mean, have you ever, I mean, uh, uh, just k- uh, if you hold your hands out like this for a long enough period of time, eventually you wanna put your hands down. Um, so the question is, how do you make it so that you can basically go and have your mind give commands to the, the computer, in this case the glasses, um, without having to speak out loud, without having to wave your hands around? Um, even though those things will be great for some use cases, you're not gonna want them all the time. So, the, the research that we're doing, it's based on the, it's, it's, it's basically, it's input only and it's focused on, so it's not, it's not trying to send signals to your brain. It's trying to make it so that your brain can communicate with the computer. And the, the path that we have is it's based on the fact that we have all these extra motor neurons in our body, right? And, and part of the reason for that is, like, in case you get hurt, you have neuroplasticity, you can rewire, do stuff, like find a different pathway to, to kind of send a signal to move your finger or something. There's all these different ways that it turns out our brain could tell this finger to move, but we've sort of optimized, um, individually, kind of we, we kind of reinforce certain pathways and end up using one, one kind of motor neuron pathway to, to do a specific thing, and you have all these others that are not that used. So, it turns out you can have a device on your wrist that basically your brain can communicate with your hand, um, tell your hand to move in, like, a pattern that it isn't kno- isn't used to, and then the, the wristband can sort of pick up those signals and translate them into completely different things, like having a virtual hand move in front of you while your physical hand is just kind of sitting there at your side.

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:12

        Whoa.

    16. MZMark Zuckerberg47:12

        So, you'll be able to have this experience in the future where, like, you're sitting in a meeting, um, and, you know, your wife texts you and it pops up in the corner of your glasses, and you wanna respond but you don't wanna, like, pull out your phone, 'cause that's kinda rude, right? Um, so you just kinda like, I don't know, twitch your wrist a little bit, maybe like this, like some super discreet motion, um, that no one even knows you're doing it, and you just, like, send a message. And-

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:39

        That seems like a massive distraction. I mean, people are already distracted by their phones. Like, when people-

    18. MZMark Zuckerberg47:45

        Well-

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:45

        ... get a text message and they're like, "Hu- hang on a second, I just gotta an- answer this real quick." And you're like, "Okay." And you're sittin' there having lunch with someone and they're not talking to you anymore 'cause they're looking at their phone. But now they're gonna be looking at these AR glasses and just thinking out text messages.

    20. MZMark Zuckerberg47:59

        (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:59

        And you won't, you won't even know that they're distracted. They're just gonna be not connecting with you.

    22. MZMark Zuckerberg48:05

        Uh, I don't know. I actually think ... I don't know, one experience that I think has been interesting since I've been doing more Zoom calls, um, especially earlier in the, in the, i- in COVID, one thing that I think actually was quite good, or is quite good, is the ability to both kind of have, have everyone who you're meeting with on video chat, but then also have a chat thread going with some o- of those people so that way, like, let's say there's something that you don't wanna say to everyone who's in the room, but you wanna ask one person. It's like, "Hey, can you clarify this thing that you said?" Or-

    23. JRJoe Rogan48:36

        Right.

    24. MZMark Zuckerberg48:36

        ... or you, you, like, don't wanna say something in front of someone. It's like I, I have this issue a lot because there's, like, a lot of confidential information that I have around the, the company and I don't wanna share it with everyone, but I wanna, like, get certain people's opinion on stuff. And if I'm doing a meeting and it's purely physical and, like, everyone is there, I, I've found that, you know, sometimes I, like, have to wait until the meeting is over to go get the answer to the question that I wanted.

    25. JRJoe Rogan48:56

        Right.

    26. MZMark Zuckerberg48:56

        Whereas, um, when, when I was, if, if I'm kind of having a, a virtual meeting over Zoom or in VR in Workrooms, um, you just, you can just kinda text people while you're doing that. So, I, I actually think that it will unlock a massive amount of efficiency and communication and expression between people to make it so that people don't have to wait, um, until they're done doing one thing to, to send a message to someone else. But, but yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a separate question.... about if you have glasses and you're wa- and you're kind of going about... You know, it's one thing to have VR and you put it on when you wanna go, you know, play a game or do a meeting. In, in the, in the kind of fullness of augmented reality, when you kind of have the glasses and you're c- like, going about that through your whole l- through your life, having some kind of really smart do not disturb mode that has a sense of like, okay, this thing really shouldn't distract you when you're doing something important is gonna be... That's gonna be a really important AI problem too, I think-

    27. JRJoe Rogan49:52

        Yeah.

    28. MZMark Zuckerberg49:52

        ... to be able to kind of simulate and understand, um... 'Cause I don't think it's gonna be as black and white as, like, do not disturb on or off, right? I think you, like, you, you want some intelligence there about, you know, routing and, and kind of understanding which things you're gonna wanna get and which things not.

    29. JRJoe Rogan50:05

        And maybe have certain people have priority, like if your wife or your family is trying to get ahold of you, they can get through-

    30. MZMark Zuckerberg50:10

        Yeah.
12. 50:14 – 59:54

    Screen time and well-being: active engagement vs passive consumption (and “eating TV time”)

    1. JRJoe Rogan50:14

       Yeah. I, I worry about additional distractions. I mean, uh, I do not keep my children from social media, 'cause I feel like the world that they live in has social media in it and I don't want them to be just completely disconnected from that. I limit the amount of time they use their phones, and I try to talk to them about the importance of not being, like, completely, uh, absorbed in social media and these kind of things that these kids do. But I, I think it's a part of life, and I, I think it's, uh, it's, it's new and it's weird and it's confusing and it can be very addictive. But I also think it's a part of life. But going out to dinner with them is so hard. (laughs)

    2. MZMark Zuckerberg50:53

       (laughs)

    3. JRJoe Rogan50:53

       They just wanna check their... Like, I'm like, "Hey, put your phone down. Stop snapping with your friends." They're always Snapchatting. I'm like, "Stop! Stop doing that."

    4. MZMark Zuckerberg51:01

       It's like, well, we gotta stop that.

    5. JRJoe Rogan51:02

       Yeah.

    6. MZMark Zuckerberg51:02

       (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan51:03

       It's like, we just gotta put it aside. Just put it aside. But if you have glasses on, that's gonna be very difficult. It's gonna be very difficult to get people to d- d- you know, especially if glasses have social media applications and also offer some sort of a, a benefit, like a net benefit to, like, the way you view life. Like maybe give you, uh, information on the amount of calories that are-

    8. MZMark Zuckerberg51:28

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan51:28

       If you pick up a food item-

    10. MZMark Zuckerberg51:30

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan51:30

        ... like, "What is that?"

    12. MZMark Zuckerberg51:31

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan51:31

        "Oh, look at all the calories. Oh my god, it's got that oil in it? That's not good for you." Or, you know, uh, other benefits, but also has social media. You're, you're gonna come into this, like, sort of weird place where y- you have to figure out whether or not this is a positive thing in your life-

    14. MZMark Zuckerberg51:46

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan51:46

        ... or whether or not it's overcoming a- and you're, you're overwhelmed by it.

    16. MZMark Zuckerberg51:51

        Yeah, and I think that that's something that... It's gonna end up being this balance, and hopefully our computers and platforms will help us find the reasonable balance on that. I mean, one of the things that you keep, that you've said a few times is, okay, like, "I'm not sure if I'd wanna do this digitally." I, I, I think about, like, it's like, "I wanna have this experience in the real world."

    17. JRJoe Rogan52:09

        Yeah.

    18. MZMark Zuckerberg52:09

        I mean, here, here's one kind of philosophical way that I think about this, is I, I actually think when, when you say the real world, uh, I, I call that the physical world. And I, I think there's the physical world and the digital world, and I think the combination of those increasingly is the real world. Right? It's, you know, it's, uh, like, there's all this additional information that we bring to the physical experiences that we have, that, um, whether it's, whether it's digital or, or just from our own experience or studying that we've done, that's more than just kinda the physical kind of sensation that we get.

    19. JRJoe Rogan52:44

        Yeah.

    20. MZMark Zuckerberg52:44

        Um, but the ratio of that may be shifting over time, right? So in a world in the future where, you know, a lot of the things that might be physical today, I mean maybe these, the, this kind of art and sculptures and stuff that you have here, maybe in the future they're not physical. Maybe they're just holograms because then you can change them really easily. Um, maybe over time the sort of ratio of the amount of physical stuff that we interact with to digital stuff shifts and becomes more balanced or something like that, whereas, you know, historically it was all physical and there was very little kind of information or, or, or digital overlay on top of it. And now I think it's just steadily been increasing. But I mean, it's, I think it's probably gonna be a lot healthier for us, rather than consuming kind of all this additional context through this tiny little portal that we carry around on a phone and you're just kinda like looking at this and you're missing the whole context, I think to have it be able to be overlaid and, you know, have, have kind of people be able to, you know, pop in and interact with them through it, um, I don't know, I think that's gonna be powerful. W- we'll obviously need to get the balance on this right, but it's, um, but I don't know. That's sort of how I think about it. I, I, I think, like, probably the right way to think about the real world is, at this point, as not actually just the physical world.

    21. JRJoe Rogan53:54

        Mm.

    22. MZMark Zuckerberg53:54

        But, but the physical world, I'm, I'm probably more kind of optimistic or believe that the physical world is probably more important to our being and essence and soul than, than I- probably a lot of other people in the industry. (laughs) So, I mean, I, I, I really care about, about getting that, that balance right.

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:09

        I think the balance is important, but I think you're correct. I think there is a, an ever increasing landscape of digital world that's undeniable, and y- it's a part of life now. And as the technology improves, it's going to be a bigger and bigger part of life. Uh, I, I wouldn't say my fear is, but my thoughts are that we're going to lead to a time some day where people become fully immersed 24/7 in a nonphysical world, and I think that's the matrix, and that's what people are worried about, is that as this technology advances, especially with some sort of neural interface, that we're going to get to a place where we're not really here anymore. We're there always. Like, the, how many people are on, uh, like, how do you, do you limit your social media use? How do you do it?

    24. MZMark Zuckerberg54:54

        Uh, me personally?

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:55

        Yeah.

    26. MZMark Zuckerberg54:55

        I mean, I'm just doing so many things that in practice there aren't a- an- as many hours in the day.

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:00

        You don't have enough time. (laughs)

    28. MZMark Zuckerberg55:00

        But, and, and my, my kids, I, I haven't had to think about it quite as much yet because they're pretty young. Um, six and five, right? Um.

    29. JRJoe Rogan55:07

        Yeah.

    30. MZMark Zuckerberg55:07

        Auggie just turned five, um, this weekend. But it's, um, so I mean they use... I actually, I want them to use technology for, for different things. I mean, I, I teach them how to code. I, I think it's like an outlet for, for creativity. Um, I mean, Auggie especially, I mean she... Max likes building things. Auggie thinks about it as art. So when I, whenever, like every, you know, every night I, I try to do bedtime with them religiously, so I try to like end my, my, my meetings in order to be able to put them down and, and, um-... I, I ask them, like, what, what activity they wanna do. "Do you wanna read or do you wanna wrestle or (laughs) whatev- whatever the ..." Then, um ... Or, and, and August just like, "Oh, I wanna do code art." It's like, "Oh." It's like, that's such a interesting way to think about it. I always think about coding as like you're building something, and she just thinks about it as making the computer make art.
13. 59:54 – 1:16:48

    Zuckerberg’s training and stress management: from surfing/foiling to MMA and jiu-jitsu

    1. JRJoe Rogan59:54

       Have you always been a very physical person? 'Cause I follow you on Instagram.

    2. MZMark Zuckerberg59:57

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan59:58

       You, I see you wakeboarding and stuff.

    4. MZMark Zuckerberg59:59

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan59:59

       You're, you're very active, like, which I think is very ... It's a great message, too. It's very ... It's great for you, but it's also a great message for other people that, here's this guy who's incredibly busy. He's ... And his life is, uh, overwhelmed with technology, yet he's constantly doing physical things and using his body and exercising and getting out in nature.

    6. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:19

       Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's something that my parents really stressed for me early on. They're like ... Uh, my parents pushed me pretty hard. They were like, "You're gonna do well in school, and you're gonna be on three varsity sports teams." And, like, and it's just-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

       That's it?

    8. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:31

       Yeah. Well, I mean, and, like, and, you know, a lot of other stuff.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

       No, but I mean, like-

    10. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:34

        But it's-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

        ... that, you don't have any debate. It's it.

    12. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:37

        No, it's, yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

        This is, this is the rule.

    14. MZMark Zuckerberg1:00:38

        So it's like, that's, that's just what you're gonna do. So, um, and I'm, I'm super grateful for it. I mean, they, they weren't very prescriptive, right? I mean, they didn't tell me I had to do computers. They didn't tell me which sports I had to do. But they were like, "This is important." Um, but I, I don't know. I mean, I've found that especially as the company has scaled and in some ways become more stressful, it's, like, more important, right? It's ... And my sort of day is like ... It's like, all right, you wake up in the morning, look at my phone. You get, like, a million messages, right, of, of stuff that come in. It's usually not good, right? It's, I mean, p- people-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

        (laughs)

    16. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:14

        People like, people reserve the good stuff to tell me in person, right?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:01:17

        Right.

    18. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:17

        Um, so but it's, it's like, okay, what's going on in the world that I need to kinda pay attention to that day or ... So it's, it's almost like every day you wake up and you're, like, punched in the stomach. And then it's like, "Okay, well, fuck. Now I need to, like, go reset myself and be able to kinda be productive and not be stressed about this, so how do I do that?" So I basically, I go, I like, I, I read, I take in all the information, and, um, and then ...... I, I go do something physical for an hour or two and, and just kind of reset myself. And over time, what I've found is that it's not actually just, um ... I used to run a lot, but the problem with running is you can think a lot while you're running.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:01:54

        Hmm. (laughs)

    20. MZMark Zuckerberg1:01:55

        Um, so I- I've, um, especially over the last couple of years, I've gotten really into things that require full focus. So, um, you know, at the beginning of, of COVID, I, I, I mentioned that I spent a bunch of time in, in Kauai. Our family has a, has a ranch down there, and like, I spent a lot of time foiling and surfing. And it's like, if you're foiling or, or surfing and you're on, like, a wave, you have to be, you have to pay attention the whole time, right? Or else you're gonna fall and, and maybe get held under. And it's like not, that's, that's not a great experience. I don't know if you, if you surf, but, um ...

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:28

        No, I don't. But I tried foiling-

    22. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:30

        Uh-huh.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:30

        ... and I'm an oaf. I couldn't get on the thing.

    24. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:32

        Well, I-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:33

        My, my young daughter is really good at it, my 12-year-old, and she just zooms around and gets on that thing, and I just, I couldn't figure it out.

    26. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:41

        Yeah.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

        (laughs)

    28. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:43

        It's, uh, it's, um ... You're talking about the eFoil for that.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:47

        Yes.

    30. MZMark Zuckerberg1:02:47

        Yeah, that, it's ... I, I bet if you tried it for, like, a few days, you'd get it down pretty well.

Episode duration: 2:53:53