Joe Rogan Experience #1878 - Roger Waters

Roger Waters 0:00 (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience. (drum music)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) So thank you very much for doing this. I- I really appreciate it. I'm a gigantic fan, so it's- it's a real honor. And it's- it's very nice to know that you could actually play pool.

Roger Waters 0:21 Well, we've only played two racks.

Joe Rogan 0:23 Yeah, but I could see.

Roger Waters 0:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 I could see how you move the ball around.

Roger Waters 0:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:27 You gotta get a little warmed up, you know.

Roger Waters 0:28 Yeah, well-

Joe Rogan 0:28 We just started.

Roger Waters 0:30 ... yeah, well, it- it is true that if you start playing pool against somebody you don't know and you discover that they do understand that control of the cue ball is everything-

Joe Rogan 0:38 Yeah.

Roger Waters 0:38 ... then that's something. You think, "Oh, well, maybe we could have a game."

Joe Rogan 0:42 Well, as soon as you looked at the table and said, "These are very unforgiving pockets," I was like, "Oh, you know."

Roger Waters 0:48 A little bit, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:49 Yeah. Well, uh, first of all, uh, it's an honor to have you in here. I'm very excited. But, uh, second of all, uh, you're in the middle of a lot of things. You've- you've got your tour, you've got a lot of controversy going on. It's, uh ... I really enjoyed that conversation that you had with CNN because that kind of conversation is- is rare to see on air and see someone as informed as you are to have, uh, these opinions and express them so honestly and, uh, bravely.

Roger Waters 1:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:20 And, uh, it was a very interesting conversation.

Roger Waters 1:23 Well, I've- I'd known Michael a bit for, uh, a year or two. And he- he actually ... my last kind of engagement with him, with Michaels McConnish, I'm talking about, uh, we ... right, the interviewer, uh, was when I was playing in Miami a few years ago and the local Jewish community decided that I shouldn't be allowed to use local school children to sing Another Brick in the Wall, part two, because all during the war tours that I did, I always used local children, um, preferably from, you know, undernourished communities, um, to come and sing with me. M- I mean, between eight and 12 of them, uh, every night. And they would come in, having- having listened to the song a bit, and I would rehearse them at five o'clock in the afternoon, and then boom, at half past eight, they're on stage singing. And they get very excited and- and obviously, but it- it's a wonderful thing-

Joe Rogan 2:25 Yeah.

Roger Waters 2:26 ... for them, but also for me and also for the band, to have these children come and perform with us on stage. And the mayor of North Miami Beach, or wherever it was, came under some pressure from the local community and they did ... and they weren't allowed to play. So I got some other kids, but-

Joe Rogan 2:45 What was the objection?

Roger Waters 2:47 That I'm an antisemite. Obviously, I'm not an antisemite.

Joe Rogan 2:50 Clearly.

Roger Waters 2:50 Let's get that clear-

Joe Rogan 2:51 Yeah.

Roger Waters 2:51 ... straight away, if you don't mind. Um, because I'm obviously not. You can- you- you study my record going back as far as you want. Um, so that, yeah, that's- but that's always the objection because- because I support BDS and because I have for the last 16 years or so.

Joe Rogan 3:11 BDS?

Roger Waters 3:13 You know what BDS is. Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions.

Joe Rogan 3:16 Okay.

Roger Waters 3:17 It's a- it's a movement that was started in 2005, uh, in Palestinian civil society and it stands for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. And, uh, so it's a movement to try and, uh, shine a light on the predicament of the Palestinian people, particularly in the occupied territories, um, but also, I guess, in Israel itself, um, using those ... using boycott and divestment from companies that ... like Caterpillar or Hewlett-Packard, people like that, uh, who deal in the illegal settlements in the occupied territory. And sanctions, well, there are ... there's- there's n- not many people out there who are powerful enough to impose sanctions on other people and, um, and most of those with that much power are allies of the Israeli government, and so wouldn't do so. But anyway, that's what it is, by and large. And since then, we have made great strides in that movement and it's a much bigger movement than it was and in- and in consequence, um, the- the sort of battle lines have been drawn, but it's g- got more intense and it's slightly less gentlemanly sport than it was 16 years ago, in my experience anyway.

Joe Rogan 4:40 So 16 years ago, you were allowed to have different opinions about conflicts?

Roger Waters 4:46 Well, no, but nobody knew about the conflict.

Joe Rogan 4:50 Mm-hmm.

Roger Waters 4:50 It was largely unknown that there was a problem at all in the- in- in the Holy Land, uh, certainly by most of the public in this country and where I'm from, from ... in the UK as well. And in me. I mean, I- I had accepted back in 2005 or '06, one of those years, s- ... to do a- to do a gig in Tel Aviv, I was asked in the middle of a European tour, "Hey, Rog, they want you to go and do a gig in Tel Aviv." He said, and I went, "Yeah, all right." I didn't- I- I didn't think twice about it. So that's where I was then. So I'm not blaming people for not having known about the Zionist project since 1948 and everything that had happened. Uh, although I was vaguely aware of the Yom Kipp- Yom Kippur War, the '67 War and the '75 War and so on and so f- ... I knew a little bit about the history, but I wasn't really au fait. And that's how I learned because as soon as I said I would do that gig, I started to receive emails from supporters of BDS, although it was only five or six months old at the time. Mainly from North Africa to start with, but then-... I got an email from Omabaguti, who is, um, who was one of the sort of founding forces behind, uh, the beginnings of BDS. And he tried to persuade me to cancel the gig in High Comp- which had sold out, of course, in a few minutes, you know. And, uh, eventually I was persuaded to cancel that gig, but as an act of compromise, as I thought ... I feel as if I'm repeating a speech that I've al- That's okay. ... made already, which I am. That's all right. You know, I've said this so- often before. Anyway, so I moved the gig to an ecumenical agricultural community called Wahat Asalem in Arabic, and translated into Hebrew, it's, um, Neveh Shalom, so something about peace, uh, where Muslims and Christians and Druze and atheists and, all live together in a community. And all their children all go to the same school, and they all mix together, and they live peacefully and grow chickpeas, mainly, as an example to the rest of us, if you like. So we did a gig there in the open air, and it was huge. Uh, 60,000 Israelis came. What I didn't realize at the time, of course, was of course they were all Israelis, because Palestinians aren't allowed to travel, so there couldn't be any Palestinians there. They would need special permission, you know, to cross, to cross through checkpoints and things, which they wouldn't get. So we did this gig, and at the end of it ... And it was lovely. They were extremely enthusiastic. They knew the work very well, and it was very, "Ah, Pink Floyd, blah, ra-ra-wah," and all of that. And lovely food backstage, and it was a warm summer evening. At the end of it, I thought, "I'm gonna say something." I- it was euphoric at the end of the gig. And I said ... So I made a little speech and I went, "You are the generation of young Israelis who need to make peace with your neighbors. Start talking to the Palestinian Authority, and the blah, blah, blah, and whatever, and da, da, da, dah." And they went from, "Ah, Pink Floyd," to (gasps) nothing. Nothing. It was like steel shutters had come down behind the eyeballs of e-every one of those 60,000 young Isra- ... shh-hum, they were gone. And I was staggered by that, and I th- I was really shock- really, really, really shocked. I couldn't believe it. And I saw it, I went back the next year and traveled extensively in the occupied territories. And until you go there and you see it, you cannot believe what a shock it is. You know, you- things that you wouldn't believe possible anywhere on the world, like different roads for people with different religion. Can you imagine? Really? Yeah, really. Can you imagine? You're going from Austin to, you know, to Dallas, and you can only go on the road if you're Christian. If you're not a Christian, you can't go on the road. S- so if you're, if you're atheist or some other thing, you're not allowed to drive on the road. You have to go on back roads, and them only f- and they're all filled up with boulders, and there are checkpoints everywhere. So the local indigenous people are not allowed to use the roads. And you see that, and the- when you see it, you think, "I don't believe this," but you get to believe it as you drive round. And all the checkpoints, and they, they have to go this way. Only people with yellow license plates can go through here, which means that they're Jewish Israelis. And it's ... mind-numbingly, um, fills you with despair when you see. You think, "How can this possibly be happening?" You know, this is, it's 2007 or, or whenever it was. How can this be happening in the world and nobody where I live knows about it? Or if they do, they don't care. How can they not care? I'm, uh, and I say, you might bring it up here and say, how would you feel if you weren't a Christian and that meant you couldn't use the road? I mean, it's so weird that it's hard to get your mind around believing that that is the case, but it is. And that is what is called apartheid. And in those days, you couldn't use the word apartheid in relation to Israel. It was completely verboten in 2006. You could not use the word. You would've been strung up in the press and everywhere else and accused of being a Holocaust denier and a this and that and Hitler and whatever. Now, it's very difficult for anyone to have a conversation about Israel and Palestine without using the word apartheid, because it is in the lexicon. And the problem is far more in the light, and we are looking at it more, and there's more information for all of us about it than there was then. That is the work that BDS has done. And so it has made progress, and I'm glad it has, because what I desperately hope to live to see is a Holy Land, I don't care what it's called, from the River Jordan to the sea, where the people all have equal religious and political and social rights, all of them, equal. And so that's what I work for in the movement. And maybe we should talk about something else, 'cause I, I'm ... If you wind me up, I might go on- (laughs) ... for hours and- Well, I'd be happy to wind you up. I, I mean, th- the definition- It just might cover- ... of apartheid is ... Yes, it is. Yeah. It- it's segregation. I mean, that is segregation, clearly. Yeah. Yeah. What is this- It's the oppression of one ethnic- Yes. ... group by another ethnic group. Yes.... for those reasons, for the fact that they're a different ethnic group. So the South African model clearly applies, except that the South Africans who survived the S- South African model all say that the Israeli model is far worse than the white South African model was. The white South Africans at least tried to build ... well, they tried, they've poured money in for a start, trying to keep the Black population quiet, which they failed to do. Um, but both Desmond Tutu, before he sadly died, and, um, Mandela, obviously, as well, both came out completely and said, "This is a lot worse than our conditions were in South Africa before apartheid."

Joe Rogan 12:49 So just discussing this and having compassion for the plight of the Palestinian people, that, that made them categorize you as antisemitic?

Roger Waters 12:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:58 Did, did anyone have ... and, and I'm sure someone must have talked to you about this segregation. Did anyone have any kind of argument that they wanted to bring to you as, for any justification of that?

Roger Waters 13:11 You mean from the Israeli side?

Joe Rogan 13:12 Yes.

Roger Waters 13:13 No. That's why they call me antisemitic. That's why they label anyone who criticizes the apartheid policies of the state of Israel without criticizing the Jewish religion or any Jewish person. I mean, the fact that a lot of the people who are in the government are J- of the Jewish faith means that they can somehow feel they can conflate criticism of the apartheid policies with a general criticism of, uh, an antisemitic criticism of the Jewish people or people who ... well, they ... nice try, fellas, but it won't wash. That's not what it is. And most of us who get labeled as antisemites are not. And, but ... like Jeremy Corbyn, for instance, the guy who was removed from the Labour Party in England on the grounds that he was accused of being a ... he's not antisemitic. He's left-wing, and he's pro-Palestinian, pro the idea that they should have human rights, the, the Palestinian people, who after all were the huge majority of the indigenous people, um, in the Holy Land back in the start of the 20th century, before the start of the Zionist enterprise, which didn't really get going till 1920. Although, the idea, um, the idea was happening in the late 19th century, in the 1880s and 1890s. Um, can't remember the guy's name now, but he was a R- Russian who thought up the idea of a return to the promised land, as it's called.

Joe Rogan 14:56 Out of a- all the people that perform music, and travel, and are as prominent as you are, you're, you're probably one of the most outspoken and informed when it comes to issues on foreign policy and human rights. And how, h- when did this become a big part of your life, and when did discussing this publicly become a big part of your life?

Roger Waters 15:20 Well, it became a big part of my life the day my father died, I think. I mean, I wouldn't know, because I was only five months old. My father, as you might or may not know, died at Anzio on the 18th of February, 1944. And I was born September '43. So I was only a few months old. But when it, when I started to understand some of this was when he didn't come home and start picking me up from school when I was a little kid. And then, all through my childhood, I lived ... I was brought up by my mother. My brother and I, my big brother John and I, were brought up single-handed by my mum, who was a school teacher, but she was also very left-wing. She's an interesting woman, because, um, she came from a very kind of middle class family in London. Funnily enough, they lived in Golders Green, which was sort of well-known for being a Jewish community in North London. Um, her father ran a, ran a business that ... sort of middleman in fancy goods, toys and things like that, so there was a big warehouse in London. And ... but my mother ... and she went off to boarding school, girls' school, so she was very ... brought up in a very fairly straight-laced English Christian middle class way. She then trained as a teacher, and her first teacher training was in a town called Bradford, which is in the north of London. Uh, not north of London, north of England, far north of England, in Yorkshire. And it was a huge eye-opener to her. There she was, first winter comes along, it's really cold, there's a foot of snow on the floor. And she suddenly notices that half the kids in her class are walking to school with no shoes. (laughs) And something went bing. This would have been in 1935, '36, something like that. And she suddenly went, "What?" And she started to look into social conditions there in the industrial north. And, and even then, in the, in the mid to late '30s, she understood that there were inequalities in the context of the society that she lived in that, that she felt a personal need to do something about, and she became extremely left-wing. Um, anyway, cut to later on. So our front room was always a Labour Party committee room, and she was always off in the evenings canvassing at elections or ... and dragging me and my brother to British China Friendship Association mee- meetings in the evening. And ... but she was always very...... careful and clear with us that she would... I remember one day she said to me and my brother when we'd come back from a meeting, interestingly enough at the Friends' Meeting House, which is the place the Quakers meet, you know. And yet wherever it is in the world, it's always called the Friends' Meeting House. And we'd been watching films of kapok-clad Chinese, you know, soldiers fighting against Chiang Kai-shek and the nationalist puppet government and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, "You know where we've been tonight, don't you, Roger?" And I said, "No." And she said, "We've been at the Friends' Meeting House. That is where the Quakers meet." She said, "Well, as you know, I'm an atheist, so I can't subscribe to their religious beliefs, but I will say this. They are very, very good people." That stuck with... I can still recount that story now because it's so important. You don't have to subscribe to people's beliefs. You can... I can be a radical atheist and you can be a Hindu. The important thing is that we're good people, that we have hearts and that we care about our brothers and sisters. And s- and my mum did. I'm gonna tell you one more Mum story, and then I'm gonna-

Joe Rogan 19:32 (laughs)

Roger Waters 19:32 And then I'll stop about Mum, 'cause this is the most important bit. I was 13 years old. I had just gone through a phase where I suddenly realized I was gonna die. I don't know if all adolescents have this existential crisis in their young, in eh- early puberty, but I did. And I thought, "F me. (laughs) I'm gonna die."

Joe Rogan 19:59 (laughs)

Roger Waters 19:59 "This is scary as shit," you know?

Joe Rogan 20:01 Yeah.

Roger Waters 20:01 "Oh, oh my God." And I was... It might've been that or it might've been something else, but anyway, something was worrying me. And it was probably more some kind of political thing that I'd latched onto, maybe through her. And she's l- and she looked at me and she said, "All right, I'm gonna give you some advice now." "Uh, come on then, Mum." "All through your life, you're gonna be faced with difficult questions, and you're going to have to figure things out. This is my advice. When a- anything crops up, so it could be Israel, Palestine, it could be anything, it doesn't matter what it is," she said, "you must read, read, read, read, read." That's what Smaconish was telling me-

Joe Rogan 20:40 Yeah.

Roger Waters 20:40 ... but he had, he hadn't. He'd only read one side. That's the difference between Michael Smaconish and me. I've tried to look at all sides of these things so I'd know a bit more what I'm t- Anyway, she said, "Read, read, read. And very important, learn everything you can about the subject that's troubling you. And importantly, uh, look at it from both si- If you, there's another opinion, make sure you study that as well," and blah, blah, blah. "It'll take some time, it'll be hard work, but when you've done that, the work is over. You have done all the heavy lifting. The rest of it is easy." And I went, "Uh, what is the rest of it, Mum?"

Joe Rogan 21:20 (laughs)

Roger Waters 21:20 And she looked at me and she said, "The rest of it? Well, that's simple. You do the right thing."

Joe Rogan 21:29 Sounds like you had an amazing mum.

Roger Waters 21:30 A- amazing, amazing. Imagine giving... Ev- every young adolescent should be given that advice by a parent or someone they respect, you know, s- because it's... I'm, I've... That's been jangling around in my head ever since. Not every day, but very often I remember it. And I tell it to anybody who cares to listen as well, because it was so important.

Joe Rogan 21:56 It's incredibly important, and not said nearly enough. It's rare. That's what's amazing. Like, it sound, it resonates, it sounds so powerful and true, and yet rare.

Roger Waters 22:09 Yeah, but what happens then, if we're sitting down the pub and I tell you that story and we've got all night, one of us will have another drink and then we might start talking about the philosophical implications of how you decide what's the right thing to do.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Right.

Roger Waters 22:27 Because some bloke listening to this wherever, it doesn't matter where they are, who's a, who's Zionist and who believes in the Zionist empera- uh, you know, enterprise in Israel and in the occupied terr- in fact, in the whole of the palas- palis- uh, Promised Land. Let's call it the Promised Land. It's, it's dangerous to call it the Promised Land, 'cause then you start in get, getting biblical.

Joe Rogan 22:50 Right.

Roger Waters 22:50 "Promised? Who was it promised to?"

Joe Rogan 22:52 Right.

Roger Waters 22:52 "Well, ah, it was promised to the Israelis," you know. "Whoa, whoa, whoa, sorry, I didn't mean the Promised Land. I meant the Middle East." "What do you mean the Middle East? That was made up by Sykes and Picot after the First World War," you know. So, but you do get into the thing of, wow, what... Now this really is a fascinating conversation. The right thing to do. Should we start talking about now and what's going on in the world now and what the right thing to do might be? I mean, you said a,

Roger Waters 23:22 a few minutes ago that I'm a b- I've been a bit controversial, particularly recently. And part of the c- controversy is about, um, the Ukraine and what's the right, what's the right thing to... All I've done about the Ukraine is to try to lend what little weight I have, to put that tiny bit of power I have in my shoulder to the wheel of encouraging anybody I can get to listen to stop the war, including Putin. I've written to Putin. I wrote to Putin four or five days ago, 'cause people were saying, "Why don't you tell Putin? He..." Well, just hold on a minute. If you wanna join this conversation, you have to do a bit of research, you know. Well, you don't have to, obviously. You can believe-

Joe Rogan 24:11 But you should.

Roger Waters 24:12 You should. You... It would be wise of... If you took my mother's advice, you would, before you expressed an opinion-... about what's the right thing to do. And also, when you're thinking about it, if you want my advice, you will constantly put yourselves in the position of that young Ukrainian man or woman on the front line, and that young Russian man or woman in the front line, and their parents, and their uncles and aunts, and their brothers and sisters, and the misery and pain, and the lack of anything good at the end. And the more it- and the more it escalates, the more we send arms, the more Putin... The- the less... The only thing that they can do is start to talk to one another, just like JFK and Nikita Khrushchev did in 1962, uh, e- and during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was kept secret for years and years afterwards because JFK didn't want to look like a wimp. He didn't want to look as if he'd ne- but he did. He and Nikita Khrushchev spoke on the telephone often, and at the end of it, they did a quid pro quo deal where JFK said, "I'll take all our medium-range missiles out of Turkey," and wherever else it was, Turkey was the main one, "If you take your missiles out of Cuba." So they put their hands across the ocean and shook hands, and that was the end of it. And they did it, and they kept their word. They kept their word to that bargain, and that led onto the later- later conversations between Reagan and Gorbachev from the Non-Proliferation Treaties, and all the other things that made our planet a little bit safer from the possibility of nuclear catastrophe. Not safe, but a little bit sa- until now. And now, by the second, it gets more and more and more and more dangerous as this thing is allowed to escalate. So I'm making my position entirely... All I'm interested in is a ceasefire and for talks to begin. That's all. Nothing else.

Joe Rogan 26:23 What did you say to Putin when you wrote to him?

Roger Waters 26:26 I said that friends of mine think that... I said... Uh, I- I need to pull the letter up if you wanna really hear it. But-

Joe Rogan 26:34 Sure.

Roger Waters 26:36 Okay. I'll tell you one thing I said before I pull it up-

Joe Rogan 26:40 Okay.

Roger Waters 26:40 ... 'cause it will take a minute. Um, was that I said some friends of mine, 'cause I have a guitar-playing friend in England who wrote to me, "Why are you trying to suggest peace and a ceasefire? This man has to be... He's a monster. He's going to invade Poland, and then he'll invade the rest of Europe, and then... And unless we stand up to him now, we're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," and- and all of that. So one of the things I said to Putin, "A friend of mine thinks that you're gonna invade Poland and the other Baltic States, and that you're then gonna advance on Europe and blah, blah, blah. If that's true, please tell us now so we can all just say, 'All right,' and blow ourselves to smithereens 'cause that's what's gonna happen if you do that, for sure, for absolutely sure." You cannot... If you do that, you will start World War III. We know that the Ukraine situation is complicated, and it's been 20 years in the making, and it- and it's... Well, I- I won't go into the American end of it. I'll, I mean, I- I will if you've got a minute. I will find-

Joe Rogan 27:45 Yeah, I've got plenty of time.

Roger Waters 27:46 All right.

Joe Rogan 27:46 Yeah. Uh, I had Tulsi Gabbard on the other day.

Roger Waters 27:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:49 And-

Roger Waters 27:49 How is she?

Joe Rogan 27:50 She's great.

Roger Waters 27:51 Good.

Joe Rogan 27:51 And we discussed this very thing, and we, uh, discussed the United States, uh, when they orchestrated a coup in Ukraine and how NATO has been moving their weapons closer and closer to the Russian line.

Roger Waters 28:08 Yep.

Joe Rogan 28:08 And that this is instigating.

Roger Waters 28:11 And, and they've been saying all along, "You're breaking the-"

Joe Rogan 28:14 Yes.

Roger Waters 28:14 ... the agreement that was made between Baker, who was Secretary of State in 1990, and-

Joe Rogan 28:19 Yeah.

Roger Waters 28:19 ... Gorbachev, where Gorbachev said, "Okay. I- I will agree to the reunification of Germany so long as NATO doesn't move one inch closer to the Russian border than the eastern borders of Germany." And they went, "Fine, agreed."

Joe Rogan 28:32 Yeah.

Roger Waters 28:33 And they've reneged on it completely since then.

Joe Rogan 28:35 I think what was very important in the conversation that you had with CNN is not that Russia is good, and that, you know, uh, we should support Ri- you, there was none of that. What- what you were essentially saying was that we have to be honest about what the United States has done, and that narrative is never discussed. When he was talking about the dangers of China, and you brought up the fact that China hasn't invaded anyone in over 100 years. Like, how can you say that when you know about all the interventionist foreign policy decisions the United States has made overseas?

Roger Waters 29:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:07 And then you look at what China's done.

Roger Waters 29:08 Well, they have actually. They invaded Tibet in 1959.

Joe Rogan 29:11 Oh, that's right.

Roger Waters 29:11 But-

Joe Rogan 29:12 That's true.

Roger Waters 29:12 Which is a huge thing, and it's something that I'm gonna bring up be- and because it's something I've only learned about recently. Funnily enough, I learned about it from my friend, Eric Ripert, who's a very well-known chef in New York, and he's a Buddhist. And so he travels to Bhutan at least once a year, and he was recently in- in India having meetings with people who are... And, uh, we were talking about it, about the predicament of the Tibetan people. What I never understood was that Tibet is one-third of the land area of China.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Really?

Roger Waters 29:51 Exactly. You didn't know either?

Joe Rogan 29:52 It's that big?

Roger Waters 29:53 Apparently, yeah, and I haven't... Whoops. I haven't yet kind of... Look, this was a few days ago. I haven't checked it all out and looked on the map. But, yes.

Joe Rogan 30:03 I would've never imagined.

Roger Waters 30:04 N- I know, but... And you think, "Well, why the hell did they... Who- who wants, you know, hundreds of square miles of mountains and things?" Well, the Chinese, not... Because it's not just mountains. It's water, which is hugely important. The Himalayas, uh, all the glacial streams, they feed water not, uh, not just to India, okay, and- and Pakistan, but also to, um-... to the northeast of the whole of China as well. Plus, apparently, and not surprisingly, it's packed with everything that you make chips out of.

Joe Rogan 30:41 Of course.

Roger Waters 30:42 It's packed and packed with... it's an absolute... it's, I nearly said it's a goldmine. Well, it's not a goldmine.

Joe Rogan 30:48 It's a mineral mine.

Roger Waters 30:49 It's a mineral mine. It's everything that everybody who cares about making money in the world desperately needs and wants. (laughs) So it's a fascinating subject.

Joe Rogan 31:00 Mm, well, particularly China, right? Because China's so involved in the Congo in extracting these minerals.

Roger Waters 31:05 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:05 Yeah.

Roger Waters 31:05 I mean, they, they... yeah, but to their credit, they didn't invade and kill everybody-

Joe Rogan 31:10 Yeah.

Roger Waters 31:10 ... like w- the Europeans did back-

Joe Rogan 31:12 Right.

Roger Waters 31:12 ... in the, you know, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th century. They actually went, you know, "Would you like to borrow some money?"

Joe Rogan 31:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Roger Waters 31:20 Which is w- more of an-

Joe Rogan 31:21 Sneaky.

Roger Waters 31:21 ... American ploy. Yeah, it's more of a kind of modern way of doing-

Joe Rogan 31:24 Yeah.

Roger Waters 31:25 And if, if people... and who knows what they do if the people say, "Nope. No, thank you. We're good."

Joe Rogan 31:32 But they said thank you.

Roger Waters 31:33 They said thank you, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:34 Sure.

Roger Waters 31:35 And, you know, sh- uh, yeah, should they be... yeah, of course they should. They should be allowed to do business with whoever they want. I b- I believe in the idea of what's called free trade up to that point, but it has... there has to be a fair crack of the whip of everybody. And by and large, when multi-corp-... multi-, you know, multinational corporations want to invest in underdeveloped countries, they want to do it on their terms.

Joe Rogan 32:02 Right.

Roger Waters 32:02 And they don't want the people who live there to get anything out of it. I mean, I've been involved in a court battle for at least 10 years now with Chevron because of the pollution that they caused in the, in the Amazon, uh, in north, uh, in north... northeast Ecuador, um, with a friend of mine called Steve Donziger, who was sent to prison-

Joe Rogan 32:25 Yes.

Roger Waters 32:25 ... for acting on behalf of-

Joe Rogan 32:27 Yeah.

Roger Waters 32:27 ... these people. I know-

Joe Rogan 32:28 Well-

Roger Waters 32:29 I know I'm digressing.

Joe Rogan 32:30 Well, that... the Donziger case is atrocious.

Roger Waters 32:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:33 I mean, it's a terrifying case because there's n- no reason why they had that man in prison. And there's, there's no reason why they keep him under house arrest.

Roger Waters 32:41 Well, there is a reason, but-

Joe Rogan 32:42 Yeah, um, right, but no righteous-

Roger Waters 32:44 No legal reason.

Joe Rogan 32:45 No legal reason.

Roger Waters 32:46 No.

Joe Rogan 32:46 Yeah.

Roger Waters 32:47 Righteous. That's interesting, 'cause that comes to... back to my mother-

Joe Rogan 32:50 Yes.

Roger Waters 32:50 ... and doing the right thing.

Joe Rogan 32:52 Yeah.

Roger Waters 32:52 Obviously, the right thing to do, if you were the law in the United States, would be to look at, look at the facts of the matter and come to the conclusion that Chevron should give the $9.5 billion to the people whose lives they've destroyed making money. Or Texaco was the company who actually did it. But things being what they are, that's not the way the law works. The law operates to support whoever can afford it, actually, which in this case is Chevron. They still haven't paid a penny, and they're still fighting, and they will go on fighting. And speaking as somebody who's supporting the other side, who doesn't have bottomless pockets, it's hard. It's hard to find that... tho- that... the amount of money that they spend on it is... because they're worried of a domino effect, that if they lose this case, then they're gonna lose the case in-

Joe Rogan 33:48 Right.

Roger Waters 33:49 ... Nigeria-

Joe Rogan 33:49 Right.

Roger Waters 33:49 ... and they're gonna lose the case in Australia, and they're lose... and then suddenly they can see the whole pack of cards beginning to collapse. Well, it should collapse. Pay up. You've b- you've made enough profits out of the indigenous people all over the world.

Joe Rogan 34:02 Which is a scary precedent, that they were able to arrest Donziger like that, and that they were able to keep him in jail, and that... what... the way they did it.

Roger Waters 34:09 Yeah, and it was p- completely corrupt. They took-

Joe Rogan 34:11 Yeah.

Roger Waters 34:11 They did a... uh, back in 2014, they produced a RICO trial, which is, you know, is, uh, organized crime. It's, um, regulations or something against organized crime. So, so they pretended he was a gangster on a fraudulent mission, and they brought this case in the Southern So-... Southern District of New York. Incredible that they could do it. Um, and they, and they put-

Joe Rogan 34:36 Incredible that the media is ignoring it too, that this isn't something-

Roger Waters 34:38 Well, what else-

Joe Rogan 34:39 ... that people are absolutely outraged about.

Roger Waters 34:41 Well, what isn't the media ignoring?

Joe Rogan 34:43 Yeah.

Roger Waters 34:43 The m- for... um, the media, with the possible exception of you and some others who have great podcasts as well, but are independent of the-

Joe Rogan 34:51 Yeah.

Roger Waters 34:51 ... mainstream media. The media only has one message, which is, "Support the status quo."

Joe Rogan 34:57 Right.

Roger Waters 34:58 "We... all of us work for whoever it may be, and we don't need to get all conspiracy theory about, you know, secret societies." We know. Uh, it's very... it's the very, very wealthy half of 1% who, who tell everybody what to... they're called the ruling class 'cause they are the ruling class. And we all do what we're told by the media, who, by and large, repeat the same mantra over and over again. So, it's a bit tricky.

Joe Rogan 35:28 Yeah, the... well, the media has failed in their objective dissemination of information. They, d- that doesn't exist anymore. They're bought and paid by the advertisers, and the advertisers are enormously powerful. And so things like that, that are inconvenient realities, like the Donziger trial, they just swept under the rug.

Roger Waters 35:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Which, it should be outrageous. It should be something that's on-

Roger Waters 35:54 Well, it is outrageous-

Joe Rogan 35:55 Yes.

Roger Waters 35:56 ... of course, but I did a gig a few weeks ago in DC, and played to, I don't know, 16,000 people or something. And the next day, I dragged myself out of bed and bunched over to the steps of the DOG, knowing full well what I would find, which is my friend Randy Craglico and a, and a van with a sign on it, and about 40 of the same activists I've seen at every gathering in support of Steven Donziger and his freedom for the last 10 years. (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 36:30 Yeah.

Roger Waters 36:30 It's like... and I was... uh, I, I actually made a little speech the other day, and I was saying-You know, I would be happy if there were four million of us here. And there should be, standing under that memorial, the Washington Memorial in front of the Capitol, and saying, "What happened to democracy? Where is the rule of law that we all pretend we care about? Where are the freedoms and liberties?" And this and that and the other. They've, they've sort of disappeared under a roller coaster of conf- consumerism, you know, as we know. So, while we're having our little meetings, people are wandering by like... They don't even know we're there.

Joe Rogan 37:10 Right on.

Roger Waters 37:10 And they have no idea what we're there for or what we're talking about. So yeah, it's, it's extremely frustrating, but luckily, there are those 40 or 50 people, and they have hearts of gold, all right? And they will not shut up, however few of them there are. And luckily, you're here as well, and that I can come on here and talk about these things, um, without being dismissed as a crank or a conspiracy theorist or... I don't know if you saw, but I (laughs) did an interview with Rolling Stone 'cause I remember Rolling Stone when it was a magazine that was sort of about rock and roll, but it also had a kind of s- semi, semi-progressive liberal stance to it. Well, not anymore. It's changed hands and, uh... Well, it doesn't matter.

Joe Rogan 37:59 I had Jan on yesterday.

Roger Waters 38:01 Oh?

Joe Rogan 38:02 Yeah.

Roger Waters 38:02 Did you?

Joe Rogan 38:03 Yeah.

Roger Waters 38:05 I miss Jan.

Joe Rogan 38:06 Yeah.

Roger Waters 38:06 He w- he was th- he was the heart and soul of that place.

Joe Rogan 38:09 He was the heart and soul of Rolling Stone, and he still is a progressive hippie at heart.

Roger Waters 38:13 Yeah, of course he is.

Joe Rogan 38:14 I mean, talking to him yesterday, it's just... He, he bleeds it.

Roger Waters 38:18 And his daughter is called India, as is mine. Mine's a bit older 'cause I remember him coming to me one day. He said, "Is your daughter called India?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh." Yeah, the first girl, I think, of his is called India too. Anyway...

Joe Rogan 38:35 Your Putin letter.

Roger Waters 38:36 Oh!

Joe Rogan 38:36 (laughs)

Roger Waters 38:38 I'm not avoiding you, I just

Narrator 38:39 Wanna check it.

Roger Waters 38:39 No, I know you're not.

Joe Rogan 38:40 I just wanna...

Roger Waters 38:40 You just pulled it up. I just wanted to keep it on track. I, I just want to f- see where I can find it. I may have to se-... I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go into Word and, and search for it.

Joe Rogan 38:51 Do you know if he, uh, received this?

Roger Waters 38:55 Well, it was open.

Joe Rogan 38:56 Oh.

Roger Waters 38:57 I'm sure somebody will-

Joe Rogan 38:58 Okay.

Roger Waters 38:58 ... have told him about it.

Joe Rogan 38:59 Sure.

Roger Waters 38:59 I'm absolutely certain. But obviously, he hasn't responded to it. I mean, he is, uh, you know, he's the (laughs) president of Russia. There's no reason why, why he would. So, it's not in there. Right, let me do a search, uh, letter. I'll just say letter and see what comes up. Open letter to Vladimir Putin!

Joe Rogan 39:21 Okay.

Roger Waters 39:21 Here we go.

Joe Rogan 39:22 There it is. Uh, Jamie actually pulled it up on the screen. Jamie actually pulled it up here.

Roger Waters 39:27 Oh, oh, oh, did you?

Joe Rogan 39:28 Yeah.

Roger Waters 39:28 Okay. Well, there you go. So, "Dear President Putin, since the Russian Federation invaded Ukraine on February the 24th this year, I've tried to use my small influence to encourage a ceasefire and a diplomatic settlement that addresses the security needs of both Ukraine and the Russian Federation. In that endeavor, I've written two open letters to Mrs. Olena Zelenska, the wife of the Ukrainian president. These..." I can give you those letters as well. "These letters are readily available on the internet. I'm increasingly asked to write to you too, so here goes. First, would you like to see an end to this war? If you were to reply and say, 'Yes, please,' that would immediately make things a lot easier." He has, by the way. Yesterday, he said, "Yes, please."

Joe Rogan 40:13 Really?

Roger Waters 40:13 Yes. He made a long speech with the accession speech of, um, Donetsk and Luhansk and Kherson and, and the other bit of Ukraine that he, that the, they had the referenda and the people said, "Can we be part of Russia, please?" Anyway, that's what that's about. So, um, uh, "If you were to just come out and say..." Oh yeah, "If you were to come out and say, 'Also, the Russian Federation has no further territorial interests beyond the security of the Russian-speaking populations of the Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk,' that would help too. I say this because I know some people who think you want to overrun the whole of Europe, starting with Poland and the rest of the Baltic States. If you do, fuck you."

Joe Rogan 41:02 (laughs)

Roger Waters 41:02 "And we might as well all stop playing the desperately dangerous game of nuclear chicken that the hawks on both sides of the Atlantic seem so comfortable with, and have at it. Yep, just blow each other and the world to smithereens. The problem is, I have kids and grandkids, and so do most of my brothers and sisters all over the world, and none of us would relish that outcome. So, please, Mr. Putin, indulge me and make us that assurance." That, he hasn't done yet, but I've no doubt that it's part and parcel of what he is now saying publicly. "All right, back to the table. If I've read your previous speeches correctly, would you like to negotiate a state of neutrality for a sovereign neighboring Ukraine? Is that correct? Assuming such a peace could be negotiated, it would have to include an absolute binding (laughs) agreement not to invade anyone ever again. I know, I know the USA and NATO invade other sovereign nations at the drop of a hat or for a few barrels of oil, but that doesn't mean you should. Your invasion of Ukraine took me completely by surprise. It was a heinous war of aggression, provoked or not. When Mrs. Zelenska replied to me via Twitter, I was very surprised and mightily moved. If you were to reply to me, I would mightily respect you for it and take it as an honorable move in the right direction towards a sustainable peace. Yours sincerely."

Joe Rogan 42:34 So, what did Putin say in terms of wanting a resolution?

Roger Waters 42:39 Well, you- you're gonna have to look up his accession speech, 'cause I'm not gonna start trying to-

Joe Rogan 42:44 Okay.

Roger Waters 42:44 ... quote Putin in translation-

Joe Rogan 42:46 Right.

Roger Waters 42:47 ... without some words in front of me, 'cause I could get it wrong.

Joe Rogan 42:50 Got it.

Roger Waters 42:51 And ba-ba-ba-ba. He- he said, he said one thing that could be seen as combative, which I can remember he said. He said, "I want to come to the table. I want to cease fire. I want to- to negotiate. Negotiate peace." Not dictate peace, negotiate peace, uh, with the Ukraine, with- with Zelenskyy. He said, "But the will of the people in the Donetsk, Luhansk, um, Kherson," and whatever the one is whose name I can't remember, "is inviolate. That is not up for discussion." Zelenskyy in response said, "I will not negotiate with Russia until Putin has been removed." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:35 Oh, Jesus.

Roger Waters 43:37 And you go, "Mr.- President Zelenskyy, are you..." I mean, that's, that really is-

Joe Rogan 43:43 That's an insane thing-

Roger Waters 43:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:44 ... that's an insane thing to say.

Roger Waters 43:45 It- yeah, it's poking in the eye with a sharp stick, and it's just not helpful at all.

Joe Rogan 43:50 No.

Roger Waters 43:50 Anyway.

Joe Rogan 43:51 It's- it's also not likely to happen.

Roger Waters 43:54 I think it's extremely unlikely. There's nothing unites a people more than an- than a existential attack upon what they consider to be their sovereignty. And let us not forget, anybody who would like to join this conversation with me or John Mearsheimer, or any of the other people who are pro-peace and pro-diplomacy, and pro-negotiations, and pro-learning to get on with all our brothers and sisters in Russia who are very good people, as my mother would say. My mother used to say that about the Americans, 'cause she came here for two years on an exchange when she was a student. And she spent the summer near Akron in Ohio at a Girl Scout camp, and then she spent another few months in Texas. So, that was her thing. And I'll never forget, she used to say to me, "You know, Roger, the Americans, they're really very interesting people." She said, "They're very good people. They're very good-hearted people. They look after you. They're very, very hospitable, and very, very good in that way." She said, "But they are also very naive." And I thought, "Wow." I mean, this is from years and years ago-

Joe Rogan 45:13 Yeah.

Roger Waters 45:13 ... years ago, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:15 Do you think-

Roger Waters 45:16 I wrote a poem. I'm gonna- I'm gonna show, I'm gonna show this. I pulled this up earlier, so if you don't mind-

Joe Rogan 45:20 Please.

Roger Waters 45:21 ... there's a poem that pertains to this that I wrote. Uh, how do I find this? Uh, why cannot the good... Oh, here it is. Yeah. Oh, brilliant, I found it immediately. So, uh, all right. So, I was, um, I wrote this just after GW Bush was elected for the second time. Okay? And it's just called America. It used to be called Why Cannot the Good Prevail? I need to wet my whistle. Or I should run out of spittle before I get to-

Joe Rogan 46:04 (laughs)

Roger Waters 46:04 ... the good bits. All right, yeah, I can keep those on. Okay, here we go. It's- it's short. (exhales) (sniffs) America. Why cannot the good prevail here in America? There is, at heart, a people just and true, open sometimes to the point of ridicule, good neighbors to rebuild the barn. The doctor's note of western legend carried forth beyond the grave. I knew your pa enough. In caucuses across the land, deliberate, they'll always stand. Defenders of the Rosenbergs, symbolic of that yearning to be better than before. They never will give up their brother to the grocer's cold machine. Belt welts livid from the strong arm of the law. On campuses, in boardrooms, over giving thanks and pumpkin pie, on hustings in committee rooms, whenever tyrants loomed, we always held in our esteem the ones who hold onto the dream, unflinching while the bullies pose and fiddle on the hill. Has commerce so reduced the free that blinded like a tot, contaminated by the dog shit in the grass, we blunder, slaves to humbug and this Texan dynasty? No. Beyond the grip of trade, the young strain beautiful and proud. The hoarfrost breath of new blood needs but nudges from the old forgotten guard to scale the moral high grounds in the clouds.

Joe Rogan 48:00 Wow.

Roger Waters 48:03 It makes me almost emotional to read that because I wrote that 18 years ago now. But the idea of a younger generation coming up and saying, "Enough with this bullshit. This is bullshit. This is who we are. We are the good neighbor to rebuild the barn. That's who we want to be." You know?

Joe Rogan 48:25 I think the young people do have good hearts and good intentions. It's just the narrative is so cloudy, and it's so difficult to sort out what's actually going on versus what you're being told-

Roger Waters 48:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:40 ... that people just sort of lose interest in it.

Roger Waters 48:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:43 Except for the very few that are very driven.And very disciplined and really do spend the time to look at things. And those people ultimately usually wind up becoming activists or very involved, at least.

Roger Waters 48:54 Yeah. And men- and many of them cling to their activism till their dying day.

Joe Rogan 49:01 Yeah.

Roger Waters 49:01 Like me, for instance.

Joe Rogan 49:03 Yeah.

Roger Waters 49:03 But I know so many, and- and they're men that, and women, that just- you just wanna hug. You just wanna go, "Oh my God, you're such a- you're so, um, dogged but also brave, and- and you've got such a big heart that you care about people enough to make a fuss." You know?

Joe Rogan 49:27 It makes a difference. Sometimes it doesn't feel like it does, but that- that signal does get out there.

Roger Waters 49:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:35 And the people that have that signal, uh, is a- small as their audience might be, occasionally that signal will reach someone else and they'll- they'll- they'll spread it.

Roger Waters 49:47 Yeah. It's like, I know, I mean, this is all right. We- luckily we've got time.

Joe Rogan 49:52 We got all the time in the world.

Roger Waters 49:53 Which is huge because, um, that jokes a bit of my brain that wants to say, "Go on then, if you could paint a picture of the future, what might it include? What would be the first step?" You're the king of everything. What- what's the first thing that you do tomorrow?

Joe Rogan 50:10 You gotta take money outta politics, number one.

Roger Waters 50:14 Citizens United, pshh, gone.

Joe Rogan 50:16 Number one, take money outta politics 'cause the decisions that are being made are not being made in the best interest of the people. They're being made in the best interest in the people who have money.

Roger Waters 50:25 Quite right. Well, I'm with you on that.

Joe Rogan 50:27 That's the number one thing. That's the number one reason why we get involved in wars that we have no business in. I mean, Eisenhower warned us about that when he was leaving office with that speech about the military-industrial complex.

Roger Waters 50:40 I dunno if you noticed, 'cause I sent you a stick of my show, but before we do the song Sheep, the last thing be- it says, "Orwell was right to warn us in Brave New World in 1984. And Aldous Huxley was right to warn us of the coming dystopia in- in..." Yeah, no. "Aldous Huxley in Brave New World and Dwight D. Eisenhower was right to warm up- warm- warn us in his military industrial speech."

Joe Rogan 51:05 Yeah.

Roger Waters 51:06 I was right to warn us in my song Sheep. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:09 (laughs)

Roger Waters 51:09 And then we play it.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Yeah.

Roger Waters 51:11 Anyway.

Joe Rogan 51:12 Well, I'm really- really excited to see your show tomorrow night. But one of the things that's so cool about your show is that you do- you have all of these messages that are tied into the music, and you have this incredible visual, uh, accoutrement to this- this gigantic thing that goes along with your show.

Roger Waters 51:32 Yeah. Yeah. It's a- yeah, it- there's no question that- that visually and sonically is impressive. And also, I- I use my- almost, that's not my whole body of work, but a small bit of things that go back to the beginning of when I started writing songs and things. So we play about half of Dark Side of the Moon and b- but- but of course all the stuff that from Dark Side, it was all about the same stuff that I'm banging on about now.

Joe Rogan 51:59 Yeah.

Roger Waters 51:59 So it- it's- it's all kind of, um, it's all very relevant. But I'm very interested in what you said. I'd like to pursue that because-

Joe Rogan 52:07 Mm-hmm.

Roger Waters 52:08 ... you're so right about that. All right. What's the second thing?

Joe Rogan 52:11 Well, money in politics is number one, right? Um, so the only reason why people would get involved in politics without money is to try to make the world a better place. And you would, I think you would- you would recruit more people-

Roger Waters 52:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:26 ... that have good intentions and you would make it less attractive to people that are just looking to make money.

Roger Waters 52:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 I mean, you look at what's going on, like Nancy Pelosi just shot down this thing where it bans Congress from trading in stocks. It's- she shot down something to ban insider trading. Well, there's only one reason to do that. 'Cause you want to keep making money, insider trading.

Roger Waters 52:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:47 You're talking about a woman who's on the last days of her life-

Roger Waters 52:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:50 ... who's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Like, why do you give a shit, lady?

Roger Waters 52:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:54 Like, you talk about lost in the game.

Roger Waters 52:56 Well, maybe because she's worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Well, you- you- you- you got your money.

Roger Waters 53:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:02 You've- you've got it all. Like how- how are you even gonna spend all that?

Roger Waters 53:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:06 You've- she's 80 something years old, right?

Roger Waters 53:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:09 If you're lucky, what do you got 20 years left?

Roger Waters 53:11 But how 200 million-

Joe Rogan 53:13 You have $200 million.

Roger Waters 53:13 That- that- it's not about spe- it's about power.

Joe Rogan 53:16 Right. Exactly.

Roger Waters 53:18 Zuck- I gather you spoke to Zuckerberg a few weeks about Zuckerberg, Bezos, you know, Gates, I don't care who they are. They're hugely rich American oligarchs.

Joe Rogan 53:29 Yeah.

Roger Waters 53:29 I'm sure it's true of Russian oligarchs-

Joe Rogan 53:31 Mm-hmm.

Roger Waters 53:31 ... and Chinese oligarchs and they amassed the huge amounts of money because it gives them power. Then they buy newspapers and television stations and whatever. So they become part of the, um, uh, part of the system of propaganda to-

Joe Rogan 53:44 Yeah.

Roger Waters 53:44 ... keep us all in line. Um, and- and, uh, I actually wrote, uh, I wrote, um, a sketch about, I know you in comedy, I wrote a sketch about Zuckerberg. Unfortunately, it's not in the show. Um, but I'll tell you what it was because it's unlikely that it'll get into the show now. And I- I was writing it about being down here. I, the show originally when I wrote it was about them up there in the cloud. And I actually had a city on a cloud floating about, it's gone now. It's now a penthouse. So it's attached to in the show. Um, and I write about them up there, the oligarchs up there in the- they're up there in the penthouse now. And one of them is Zuckerberg. So I write a, um, I wrote a- a little sketch and it's about... (knocking) "Go away!" He goes like. (knocking) "Ah." And then the door opens and a flunky comes in and it's Zuckerberg and he's sitting there at his desk in front of his computer working, right? And he goes, "Get out!" (laughs) I don't know if he speak ... I'm sure he doesn't speak like that, 'cause I've heard him speak, and he's a bit soft-spoken.

Joe Rogan 54:56 Yeah, he's very soft-spoken.

Roger Waters 54:58 But ... And, and the flunky says, "But sir, Mr. Zuckerberg, sir, it's really important. You know? I have to speak to you." "Aah!" You know? And then he, and he tries again, and Zuckerberg's just screaming at him. I think Zuckerberg at one point says, "I've told you never to interrupt me when I'm greeting coeds." See?

Joe Rogan 55:16 When you're what?

Roger Waters 55:17 Grading coeds.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Oh.

Roger Waters 55:19 (laughs) Yeah. Good, you grinned at least. (laughs) I like that. So whatever. And he says ... Anyway, I'm gonna stop acting, 'cause I can't use up my voice, (laughs) really, I shouldn't be. And the, and the flunky says to him, "We've run out of, we've run out of space to store the money."

Joe Rogan 55:36 (laughs)

Roger Waters 55:36 And Zuckerberg screams at him, "Buy another fucking island." (laughs) "Get out." And then he throws his laptop, uh, and it goes through the window and comes down and lands in the Netherland. So that was my little sketch. And I'm sorry I didn't manage to find a space for it-

Joe Rogan 55:52 (laughs)

Roger Waters 55:52 ... in the show, 'cause I kind of like it.

Joe Rogan 55:54 Do you think it's possible for someone to become that insanely wealthy and not be greedy?

Roger Waters 56:01 No. Of course not. And you can't-

Joe Rogan 56:03 But what if someone-

Roger Waters 56:03 You can't do it without killing people, actually, is my belief.

Joe Rogan 56:07 How so? Like with Zuckerberg?

Roger Waters 56:09 Well, I don't know, because I don't, I don't know the history well enough.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Well, he created The Social Network, and it became wildly popular.

Roger Waters 56:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:16 And then-

Roger Waters 56:16 And he's now in cahoots with the FBI and the CIA and having cozy meetings with them, deciding who to allow to communicate with their brothers and sisters and who to censor.

Joe Rogan 56:26 Well, we discussed that on the podcast.

Roger Waters 56:28 Did you?

Joe Rogan 56:28 Yes.

Roger Waters 56:29 What, what did he have to say about it?

Joe Rogan 56:30 Well, because I brought up the Hunter Biden story, 'cause I brought up censorship-

Roger Waters 56:33 Okay.

Joe Rogan 56:33 ... and social media.

Roger Waters 56:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:34 And he said that the FBI had contacted Facebook and told them to be wary of a lot of Russ- Russian disinformation that was going to happen-

Roger Waters 56:42 Oh, brilliant.

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... right before, I mean this is-

Roger Waters 56:45 Russiagate! Hooray! It's even invaded our afternoon.

Joe Rogan 56:49 (laughs)

Roger Waters 56:51 They can fuck off. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:55 Well-

Roger Waters 56:55 I, if I ever hear about Russiagate aga- ... In fact, I did hear about it against ... Where did I ... I read something about it. Oh. No, it doesn't matter. I-

Joe Rogan 57:04 Well, the fascinating part about it, th- is that it's not true. Right? That's the fascinating part. The fascinating part is that there wasn't Russian disinformation in regards to that laptop.

Roger Waters 57:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:14 That's not what was going on.

Roger Waters 57:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:15 It was an actual real laptop from a man who is the, at the time, the vice president's son, who had a serious drug problem and was kind of off the rails, and he left this laptop at a repair station, and it turned out inside that laptop was a bunch of crazy shit. And it's real.

Roger Waters 57:33 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 57:33 And they were saying that this was Russian diff- disinformation, which would be the most wildlessly slanderous thing, wildly slanderous thing that, uh, uh, Russia's ever done. Like it- it ... like, create a laptop and fill it with the son of the vice president's, like, pornography and bribery and all, all this crazy shit that's supposedly in that laptop. So the FBI contacts, um, Facebook and tells them that there's going to be some Russian disinformation, uh, leading towards the election, and they, uh, I don't believe he specifically said that that laptop was a part of it, but they certainly were insinuating that.

Roger Waters 58:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:13 And then they decided to limit the engagement that people had with that. That's very vague. I don't know what he was saying when he said that, but my perspective was, now imagine if you were him and you're running something like Facebook. You are ... First of all, you're insanely busy, and if you have trust and faith in the FBI and the intelligence agencies, you definitely don't want to be distributing disinformation from a foreign c- company, or a foreign country that's trying to undermine our election. So what do you do? Well, he didn't censor it the way Twitter did, which I think is pretty egregious, but what he did do is limit its engagement. I don't know what that means. The problem with that term, like limiting the engagement, like how are you doing that? What does that mean? Can you tell me what you do? And they don't.

Roger Waters 59:03 Well-

Joe Rogan 59:03 They don't tell you what's involved in whatever at least limited engagement protocol they have, whether it's censorship or it's ... I don't know what you wanna call it, because you could put it on ... you could put that story on your page. It would just limit the amount of people who see it. But I don't understand how you're doing that. Like ... And I don't think they want to reveal that either.

Roger Waters 59:25 Well, uh, the fact is, in my view, what's really dangerous is that this prick has any hand at all in deciding what any of us read about anything.

Joe Rogan 59:36 Right.

Roger Waters 59:37 There, there sh- he shouldn't h- he should not have his finger on the delete button, on anything that goes through Facebook, in my view.

Joe Rogan 59:45 Well, I'm a, I'm a pretty-

Roger Waters 59:45 I mean, you could say there might be rules that say you can't have people saying, "You should go out and murder children."

Joe Rogan 59:51 Right. Right.

Roger Waters 59:52 But, but, but anyth- and certainly anything to do with foreign p- For instance, anything to do with the Ukraine war, you can't have Meta deciding what we should believe about that. It's bad enough that the whole of the print section of mainstream media ... now all of television has decided what sh-

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 Right.

Roger Waters 1:00:11 ... we should believe about the Ukraine. So they're all ... uh, they're all completely happy f- to tell us that Russian soldiers have been raping babies to death, and you know, and then three days later you find out that it's unattributable, and where did that story come from?

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 Mm.

Roger Waters 1:00:28 And it came from some nebulous site somewhere in the Ukraine, and they're ... so, but nevertheless, it's already been printed, and it goes somewhere into the consciousness. You build up this thing of, this is ... We can really hate these people enough so that people are now saying, "We should just kill them all now. We should start the nuclear war now."

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Right. Right.

Roger Waters 1:00:49 Some prick on Twitter yesterday said it, Thiemann or something, his name, uh ... I only know that because I've seen the tweet.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 What did he say?

Roger Waters 1:00:56 What do you think-

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 What did he say, that we should actually go to war?

Roger Waters 1:00:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:58 Nuclear war?

Roger Waters 1:00:59 Yeah. Go to nuclear war and wipe them all out.... because he said, "We've been threatened. The only thing to do is to wipe them out now."

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 What is this person's position in life? What'd they do?

Roger Waters 1:01:09 I- I- I'd have to look it up on Twitter. I've no idea.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 Was it a journalist? Was it a ...

Roger Waters 1:01:12 No. I- I- I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 Do you know what it is, Joe?

Roger Waters 1:01:15 Have a look.

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 That's a, that's a, such an insane perspective.

Roger Waters 1:01:17 Yeah. I haven't got (overlapping dialogue)

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 I- I wonder how many people say things like that just to get attention and likes and just to get views 'cause I think that's a big part of what Twitter is.

Roger Waters 1:01:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 It's like, "Look at me."

Roger Waters 1:01:27 It's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 "I'm gonna say something outrageous."

Roger Waters 1:01:29 Well, yeah. You could be right about that. And you probably ... I'm sure you are right. I'm sure there's a lot of, "Look at me," involved in a lot of these posts that go out.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 W- go ahead.

Roger Waters 1:01:38 And also a lot of, "What will think ... What will people think of me?" Which is the whole ... if you think about it, all of this, if it all developed from the beginnings of Facebook and for w- for whatever that site was that-

Joe Rogan 1:01:50 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:01:50 ... Zuckerberg started with, grading co-eds, that's sort of the beginning of it, and the FOMO and the this and that and sending pictures of yourself to your friends and caring what your schoolmates think ab- and all- and all of that, and it blowing up into something that is far, far, far more important than your mother telling you, "Read as much you can. Get educated. Make sure you know what you're talking about. And do the right thing." Which is ... 'cause none of them are telling us to do that. They're telling us to buy-

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 Well, that would be wonderful, if your mother ran Facebook.

Roger Waters 1:02:23 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 That would be great. I think the world would genuinely be at a ... be at a better place.

Roger Waters 1:02:26 It would definitely be better.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 I do-

Roger Waters 1:02:28 Except she'd never do it.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Of course.

Roger Waters 1:02:30 'Cause she'd go, "Roger, if you think I'm gonna waste my time with something as flimsy as Facebook-

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:02:35 ... you've got another thing coming, darling."

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 But, uh, what I tried to get from him and what I wanted to try to understand is, like, what is it like when you create something that r- literally is just a social network? You're just supposed to be socializing with people and sharing photographs, which is pretty innocuous. And then, it becomes something that can influence elections and foreign policy and the way the w- the world is viewed and the way narratives are spun. And, uh, you know, it's a daunting task, and especially when you didn't set out to do that in the beginning, th- nor did Twitter. Twitter set out to just be something where you just post, "Oh, I'm going to the movies today." And- and then it became what it is now because people realized, "Well, this is a tool to distribute information, and you can-

Roger Waters 1:03:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 ... just put up anything." And now, should we just limit that information? And that's what they've decided to do. They've decided to take this moral and ethical position and impose their own ideas-

Roger Waters 1:03:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 ... on what should or should not be said. And-

Roger Waters 1:03:33 But all- all based, at some point, on their position that they want to go on getting richer and richer and richer, and they want Meta to be the biggest company in the world-

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Mm-hmm.

Roger Waters 1:03:42 ... and to own everything else, and then they really will rule the world. That's th- I think that's the mental aberration, the- the very-

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 Well, that's the problem with every technology or, excuse me, every, uh, corporation. They want to continue growing and getting bigger.

Roger Waters 1:03:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:58 And you have shareholders, and they demand that you make more money next quarter than you made this quarter. And if you don't, you are not y- doing your responsibility.

Roger Waters 1:04:06 Funnily enough, there's groups of Chevron shareholders who are going to the AGM now and telling them to pay the indigenous people of the Amazon rainforest in Ecuador the money they owe them because they don't sleep at night.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Well, that's great.

Roger Waters 1:04:19 Which is great.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 That's r- that is really important.

Roger Waters 1:04:21 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Well, that- that's what you would want from people that have that much fucking money-

Roger Waters 1:04:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 ... to say, "Hey, you know, like, I'd rather have a little bit less and be able to sleep."

Roger Waters 1:04:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:04:30 But, you know, if- if you ... I've never been to Davos, and I never will because the World Economic Forum seems, to me, to be a can of worms that I don't wanna get within the hundred-mile zone.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 That's a scary can of worm. We have a- a photo of Klaus Schwab in the bathroom. Have you seen it?

Roger Waters 1:04:44 No.

Joe Rogan 1:04:44 The one where he's wearing the crazy outfit where it looks like he's in Star Wars with a- a giant metal fork over the-

Roger Waters 1:04:50 He- he- he started Davos, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:51 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:04:51 He st- ... Yeah. He started the World Economic Forum.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 Well, he's the one that's, you know, "You'll own nothing, and you'll be happy." Like ... (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:04:57 Yeah. I- yeah. I read that. That's it.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Well, that's th- what he is is almost like a character in a movie. Like, you would ... if it- it was a movie, you would go, "Well, that's too over the top."

Roger Waters 1:05:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 There's no way there's a guy with a German accent that's telling the world how to live, and they get all the billionaires to come and- and meet with him and decide what to do with- with the future of food and healthcare and- and-

Roger Waters 1:05:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 ... yeah.

Roger Waters 1:05:18 Well, that ... Davos, the World E- Economic Forum, is like-

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Yes.

Roger Waters 1:05:22 ... a bad movie.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 It is.

Roger Waters 1:05:24 It's like a really badly written Hollywood movie-

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 It's bizarre.

Roger Waters 1:05:27 ... that you would just go, "Pfft. Tear it up-

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 Right.

Roger Waters 1:05:30 ... and throw it away."

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 And while they're all flying there to talk about climate change and private jets, I mean, it's so, it's- it's so ridiculous.

Roger Waters 1:05:35 Like my friend Bono.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:05:37 I met him once.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 Yeah?

Roger Waters 1:05:39 Yeah. I met him. We- I'm gonna tell you ... I shouldn't tell you. I'm gonna tell you this story-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Tell me the story.

Roger Waters 1:05:43 ... 'cause it's kind- faintly ironic. And people will want to hang me for it because it's- doesn't ... well, here, you can make up your own mind 'cause you might think it's brilliant. And people do sometimes write to me and say, "Why are you such an asshole?"

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:05:57 "Why aren't you more like Bono?" So, here I am. I am going through an FBO, so I've just got off a private plane in Zürich. And suddenly, there's Bono, and he sidles up to me and whatever, and he was ... that grin he's got, and he starts sort of trying to make small talk. And I know, I know very well what he's doing there. He's going to Davos. He's flown in for Davos.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 Hmm.

Roger Waters 1:06:20 So that's why he's there, for Davos. But what I didn't tell him ... and, uh, I'm gonna be- this is gonna sound like boasting, and it is. The reason I'm there is 'cause I've just been to northern Iraq and been across to northeastern Syria and picked up two kids from Trinidad with their mother and flown them to Zürich, and then we're flying them back to Trinidad because their father joined ISIS and stole the children and took them there, and then, obviously, he was killed. And my friend, Clive Stafford-Smith, said, "What are we gonna do about these two kids in Camp Roj in northern Syria?" And it was one Christmas, and, uh, it was 2019, I think, and I- and I thought, "What am I gonna (laughs) do? Am I gonna go and sit by a roaring fire, you know, in Switzerland?" And, uh ...... and occasionally go skiing, or am I gonna go to Syria and try and rescue these kids? So we went to Syria. But I thought it was- I thought it was a really interesting meeting, 'cause I've never understood his whole thing of, you know, George W. Bush is a good bloke, I'll go and visit him on his ranch in Texas. He killed a million people. Not on his own. Obviously, the rest of the neocons were with him, Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and, you know, and Bill Kristol, and all the rest of them. They all, they were all in it. And Tony Blair, let's not forget. They were all in it together. They all did it together. They all knew it was a lie, they all knew it was nonsense, they all knew they were doing it to steal oil, or whatever they were doing it for. But it certainly had nothing to do with 9/11, and it had nothing to do... And so obviously, I still boil with rage every night. You can't ignore 100 million dead. You can't, you just can't go, "Oh, well that was 17 years ago, forget about it." Forget about it. You know? You can't. Well, I can't.

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Right.

Roger Waters 1:08:08 But obviously Bono can, I assume. Otherwise, why is he going to visit George Bush? Anyway, that's ... I, I know that I probably shouldn't have told you that story or said any of that stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 I think ... I mean, if you really wanted to find out what a person like that is like, that would be an incentive to go visit George Bush, to find out, like, whether or not that does hang on his conscience. Like, what, what is it like to talk to him?

Roger Waters 1:08:35 That's interesting, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 I would do that. I would do that just to talk to him, try to figure out, like, what do you, uh, how do you feel knowing that there were no weapons of mass destruction-

Roger Waters 1:08:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 ... in Iraq?

Roger Waters 1:08:45 Bet you wouldn't get a straight answer from him, would you?

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 I don't know. I don't know what you would get.

Roger Waters 1:08:49 I've seen the paintings of his feet that he did in the bath. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:53 (laughs) His bizarre paintings, right?

Roger Waters 1:08:55 Aren't they weird?

Joe Rogan 1:08:55 Yeah, they're weird, and it's like, you, uh, uh, I mean, obviously I'm armchair psychologist here. But I'm, I'm looking into him, like, that's a man that's very troubled. That's a man that, I mean, the, the weight of the world and the, the deaths that were caused by the decisions that he made as a president-

Roger Waters 1:09:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 ... and the amount of American lives that were lost, the amount of, of Iraqi lives that were lost, the, the way the world has changed. The way the world thinks of America post-911 is so different. There was a window of time right after the attacks on the World Trade Center where the, the whole world was united with America. Like, and that was-

Roger Waters 1:09:36 So was.

Joe Rogan 1:09:36 ... that was squandered for money.

Roger Waters 1:09:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:39 That was squandered. That was squandered when we invaded Iraq, that was squandered when, you know, people had this real, true understanding of what the motivations really were, and the fact there weren't really weapons of mass destruction, and that we saw the devastation and the lo- lost lives, and the way the world looks at us is incredibly different. From September 11th, 2001 to today, it's a, just a complete polar shift.

Roger Waters 1:10:09 The inter- Yeah, you're completely right, of course. But, and the interesting thing as well is that on February, I, I believe it was Valentine's Day, or do- or the 15th or something, there were 20 mil- over 20 million people all over the world in the streets saying, "There are no weapons of mass destruction. What are you thinking about? This is insane. Hans Blix has already told you there's nothing there, they've hunted and hunted and hunted." Colin Powell stood up and lied in the United Nations-

Joe Rogan 1:10:40 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:10:40 ... knowing full well that he was lying. He can't po- He must've had access to all the information. They all knew and whatever. And yet, you know, and yet you're gonna do this thing. My, my theory would be, w- if you go and see George Bush ... He is still alive, is he, George W.?

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 Yes, he's still alive.

Roger Waters 1:10:57 Okay. Well, if you go and see him-

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 You could drive there from here.

Roger Waters 1:11:00 Why don't you drive over there one weekend?

Joe Rogan 1:11:02 (laughs) I think they'd probably shoot me.

Roger Waters 1:11:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 (laughs) I don't think you're allowed to just drive to George Bush's house.

Roger Waters 1:11:08 Well, they let Bono in.

Joe Rogan 1:11:10 Yeah, well, he probably had a meeting in advance and assured them of his intentions, and-

Roger Waters 1:11:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 ... just gonna go over there and sing Ordinary Love and, you know, hold hands.

Roger Waters 1:11:16 Well, I, my theory would be that he never escaped from the dynasty, you know, th- from his genes, whatever, from that family, because it's a supremely toxic background to come out of, i.e. Bush Sr.

Joe Rogan 1:11:31 Hmm.

Roger Waters 1:11:31 All that bullshit about getting rid of-

Joe Rogan 1:11:33 Head of the CIA.

Roger Waters 1:11:34 Yeah, and getting rid of the Vietnam syndrome, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:11:37 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:11:37 That's why Desert Storm or whatever the first one was called, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:11:41 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:11:42 ... happened, and all of that. All of that history is fascinating reading, but it's also completely insane.

Joe Rogan 1:11:49 It's completely insane. And it's terrifying.

Roger Waters 1:11:51 It's terrifying, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:52 It's terrifying that when you see the Eisenhower speech and you realize, like, well, that's it in motion. That's it in action. Y- y- you're seeing it right there. That is the military-industrial complex making decisions.

Roger Waters 1:12:03 It's no more insane than what's going on now.

Joe Rogan 1:12:06 Right, right, right.

Roger Waters 1:12:08 And this is where, when I, during my show, I, I touch on this occasion. 'Cause in my show as well, as you will see to- tomorrow night, um, I, I sing two bits of a new song called The Bar. And, uh, I, I make absolutely certain that the audience understand what the song is about. It's about this place that I carry around inside me. And I said, like, we all have it if we can find it in us, in our hearts or in our soul. And it's a place where we can converse with others and share opi- Do this. Have, have a conversation about things and share our feelings. Okay? And even, if we're lucky enough, share our love with other human beings in the world in a place that's safe. And I call that place the bar, okay? Um, why am I telling you this? I tell you why I'm telling you. Because what I've discovered doing these shows, and I've done about 30 of them or a few more in the United States, is that people get it. The audience gets it.

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:13:09 You can see them getting it. And in a way...What is good about it is that singing those three verses that I do of that song, it gives them permission to disagree with me and yet not feel they have to stand up and wave their fists and walk out. 'Cause, 'cause they've understood what I'm saying, which is it's all right to disagree about things and have different opinions about, but we have to allow one another to express our opinions. And it may be that we'll meet somebody who's, you know, who, who understands more about things. You know, if you meet the Dalai Lama, you're gonna learn something from them. I'm not saying (laughs) I'm the Dalai Lama or-

Joe Rogan 1:13:50 Right.

Roger Waters 1:13:50 ... but, you know, there are things we can learn from other human beings-

Joe Rogan 1:13:54 Yes.

Roger Waters 1:13:55 ... that, um, without going on Facebook or, or picking up a phone and, you know, and, and whatever. Anyway-

Joe Rogan 1:14:03 Well, I-

Roger Waters 1:14:03 ... I'm not making much sense.

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 No, you are making sense, but I think that's one of the great things about your show, is that you combine this amazing music that has this incredible history to it with all of these messages, and with all of these visuals. And I think y- you got a lot of attention during the Trump Administration because of the flying Trump pigs and-

Roger Waters 1:14:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 ... all the others, the visuals you did. The people loved it. But then, when you put up a photograph of Biden and said he was a war criminal-

Roger Waters 1:14:31 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:32 ... then people were like, "Wait a minute."

Roger Waters 1:14:34 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:34 "You're on the wrong side now. Like, what are you doing?"

Roger Waters 1:14:36 Yeah, well, let's see what happens, shall we? Before we come to a final conclusion about Bi- as I said in the Schmoconish interview, I said there's something criminal, very... It is criminal not to be trying to end the war in Ukraine, but just by trying to pour weapons into it. Just pouring weapons into the Ukraine. Ukrainian people can't beat Russia in a war on the ground however many weapons you give them. You're just, they're just cannon fodder. That policy shows that Joe Biden and Antony Blinken and the administration, and whoever is pulling their strings, to go all conspiracy theory for a minute, couldn't give an eff about the Ukrainian people. They couldn't care less how many of them. They've said so. I saw, what's his name? Not McConnell. Lindsey Graham. I saw him in an interview the other night going, "W- we are gonna help the Ukrainians fight to the death."

Joe Rogan 1:15:33 Jesus.

Roger Waters 1:15:34 He said it in an interview on a television station, and you go, "What, their death?" Well, I mean, I didn't, I wasn't there, so I could not, but that's what he means, yeah. Let them fight. It doesn't, who cares? They never cared about a Ukrainian before. Why should we care about them now? Well, the answer is because it suits the geopolitical aspirations of the people who buy the election that you were talking about.

Joe Rogan 1:16:00 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:16:01 They're weakening Russia so that they can become the unipolar, you know, the hedge money can produce again this, they can rule the world. They want to rule the world. The neo- they said so back in the '90s. Paul Wolfowitz told Wesley Clark in, uh, the Pentagon-

Joe Rogan 1:16:20 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:16:20 ... face-to-face, "We are gonna destroy seven countries in the next five years." Wesley Clark's gone public about it. We all know it because he's told us all and people go, "Well, so what?"

Joe Rogan 1:16:33 Yeah, that speech where he discusses that, w- let's, let's play that because it's very powerful.

Roger Waters 1:16:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:40 Pe- f- pull up that Wesley Clark, um, the, the, uh, discussion where he talks about the seven countries, how they laid it out. And a lot of that has already been put into motion.

Roger Waters 1:16:51 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:16:52 But there, there was a plan.

Roger Waters 1:16:53 L- Libya, Syria's almost gone. The Yemen's pretty well gone. Um, Iran is the big, Somalia's gone. I can't remember what the others were, but we'll find out in a minute.

Joe Rogan 1:17:03 That was a, an eye-opener for people because you're, you're listening to a general and he's discussing this.

Roger Waters 1:17:11 Well, the general is relating the story-

Joe Rogan 1:17:14 Yes.

Roger Waters 1:17:14 ... that was told to him by an, uh, by a Undersecretary of State at the Pentagon.

Joe Rogan 1:17:18 Right.

Roger Waters 1:17:18 Or what, what I have, whatever Wolfowitz was at the time. I can't remember what his-

Joe Rogan 1:17:22 So, right, so you're listening to someone who is one of the people that actually gets to discuss these things-

Roger Waters 1:17:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:28 ... with the people that pull the strings.

Roger Waters 1:17:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:30 And he's relaying it to us, so let's play it.

Narrator 1:17:33 Ten days after 9/11, a few days later-

Joe Rogan 1:17:33 So this is, uh, retired US generally, General Wesley Clark, uh, wars were planned, seven countries in five years, on YouTube.

Narrator 1:17:41 And I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and-

Joe Rogan 1:17:44 Oh, this is a good one.

Roger Waters 1:17:44 Oh, it's from 2000.

Narrator 1:17:44 ... and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. So I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the joint staff who had used, used to work for me and one of the generals called me and he said, "Sir, you gotta come in, you gotta come in and talk to me a second." I said, "Well, you're too busy." He said, "No, no," he says, "you, we've made the decision we're going to war with Iraq." This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, "We're going to war with Iraq? Why?" (laughter) He said, "I don't know." (laughter) He said, "I guess they don't know what else to do." (laughter) So, uh, I said, "Well, did they find some information collect- connecting Saddam to Al-Qaeda?" He said, "No, no." He says, "There's nothing new that way. They've just made the decision to go to war with Iraq." He said, "I guess it's like, we don't know what to do about terrorists, but we got a good military and we can take down governments." And, um, he said, "I guess if, er, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail." (sniffs) So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time, we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He said, he reached over on his desk, he picked up a piece of paper. He said, "I just," he said, "I just got this down from upstairs," meaning the Secretary of Defense's office, "today." And he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're gonna take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and finishing off, Iran."

Joe Rogan 1:19:12 (sniffs) Wild. Wild.

Roger Waters 1:19:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:15 Just wild to hear him l- lay that out.

Roger Waters 1:19:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:19 Because it's conspiracy theory, but-

Roger Waters 1:19:22 Well, it's not. It's history.

Joe Rogan 1:19:24 But ... right. But actual.

Roger Waters 1:19:26 Yeah. And yet it disappears into the ether like-

Joe Rogan 1:19:30 Right.

Roger Waters 1:19:30 ... it doesn't matter. It's not imp- "Yeah, they were ... Yeah, but what? Y- yeah." Yeah, it's like, "Who cares?" Well, I care. I care.

Joe Rogan 1:19:38 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:19:39 Imagine if you were Somalian or Lebanese or-

Joe Rogan 1:19:41 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:19:41 ... Syrian-

Joe Rogan 1:19:43 Well, look at Libya.

Roger Waters 1:19:43 ... or Iraqi.

Joe Rogan 1:19:44 Libya's a failed state now. It's an-

Roger Waters 1:19:46 Yeah, it's a-

Joe Rogan 1:19:47 ... incredibly dangerous place.

Roger Waters 1:19:48 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:48 I mean, they have open slave trade-

Roger Waters 1:19:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:19:50 ... that you could watch on YouTube.

Roger Waters 1:19:52 Yeah. There's a, there's a lyric in a new, another new song of mine, one of the other songs I wrote in, in, uh, in lockdown that talks about, I'd say, um, in Timbuktu or in the Republic of the Congo or ... and other states where something's w- ... I can't remember, I'd have to look it up. But it's, it's saying whe- ... for the old slave trade to merge seamlessly with the new.

Joe Rogan 1:20:20 Mm-hmm.

Roger Waters 1:20:20 So, I'm making that point that that, this foreign policy is reintroducing slavery to the world and reintroducing the slave trade in Africa, North Africa, West Africa, and the Middle East. That's what it's doing. And, um, and, uh, people seem to think it's all right. But what, what's the ai- what's it for? Wh- why? What is it? Even if you c- ... uh, in, um, I've written another letter to somebody which I haven't posted yet, but it, it's ... oh, I know, it's to a counselor in the Ukraine who has ma- who has declared me persona non grata in Krakow, which is a, a big town very near the Polish-Ukrainian border, because he claims I'm a Putin apologist. And so all my asking everybody that I can get to listen to me to make peace, to stop the war, to start negotiation or whatever, for them I'm a ... you know, all they want to do is kill every Russian that they can get their hands on or whatever. What was I ... why did I bring that up? I'll, I'll remember in a minute, and when I do I'll tell you, 'cause it's to do with the whole thing. Oh, y- ... no, I can't remember.

Joe Rogan 1:21:36 (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:21:36 I've lost it, but it'll, it will come back to me. That's how my brain works-

Joe Rogan 1:21:40 (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:21:42 ... unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 1:21:42 How w- what is your creative process when, when you sit down to write music, when you sit down to compose songs? Like, wh- ... how, how do you go about that?

Roger Waters 1:21:56 I always used to say, for years and years, I used to ... I don't go about it, or I haven't in the past. In the past, my answer would always be, "I don't do anything until I get a pregnant feeling." I i- ... and I can't describe the feeling really except that I know that I'm about to give birth to something, so that's as close as I can get. It's a weird sort of f- fog of nothingness that feels as if it might clear and I might see something or something might pop out. And very often after that, I put myself in, in a ... physically in the same room as a guitar or a piano and, and with a legal pad and a biro, and hey, presto, sometimes something pops out and I go, "Oh, that's interesting," and then I work on it. More recently when COVID happened, I did two things. One, I wrote some songs that had been bubbling a bit, and that might, it might be just a little guitar riff or a chord sequence or something, and then ... and I might play it and then ... my brain is a very fertile place for ideas and for lyrics and for the way lyrics scan against bits of music, so it comes kind of quite easily once I've had a first idea. I did that. But also I, um, I thought, "I've got a couple of years of this. I've been meaning to write a memoir, so I'm gonna do it now." So one day I got this out and I went, "Well go on then, you prick."

Joe Rogan 1:23:28 (laughs)

Roger Waters 1:23:30 (laughs) "Go on then, clever clogs." So I opened a Word document and I went ... and I started to write. And before I knew it, I'd written 10,000 words and I went ... uh, and I was probably a bit drunk, and so I went, "Well ..." and I went back a couple of days later and I went, "Bloody hell, it's prose," and it's quite funny but it's deep as well and it's actually rather moving. And so I had a eureka moment, you know? I went, "Fuck me, I can write prose." I couldn't believe it, 'cause I love prose. I mean, I, I love to read books. I love books.

Joe Rogan 1:24:05 But you never sit down intentionally to write like that?

Roger Waters 1:24:10 I never sit down like ... you know professional writers, sometimes they say, "I get up at 6:00 every morning, have-

Joe Rogan 1:24:15 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:24:15 ... a cup of coffee and a piece of bacon, and then I go to my room and I write until 12:30.

Joe Rogan 1:24:21 Right.

Roger Waters 1:24:21 And then I have a bottle of champagne and pass out in my ... " so whatever it is they do-

Joe Rogan 1:24:26 Right.

Roger Waters 1:24:26 ... but they have a routine.

Joe Rogan 1:24:27 Yeah.

Roger Waters 1:24:28 I don't have that, so I g- ... I work when I think, "Hmm." Or I might be drifting past the piano and sit down and go, "Oh, that's it." And I might even reach for a pen and write a chord sequence or something down, but ... so it's a very ... it's n- ... it's not, it's, it's not a regimented protest, uh, process at all.

Joe Rogan 1:24:49 When you're as busy as you are in touring and all