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Joe Rogan Experience #1883 - Ryan Graves

Former Lt. U.S. Navy and F/A-18F pilot Ryan Graves was the first active duty pilot to publicly disclose regular sightings of Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon (UAP). Today, Graves serves as first Chair of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics UAP Community of Interest, and is the Director of Business Development at Quantum Generative Materials. www.uncertainvector.com

Joe RoganhostRyan Gravesguest
Jun 27, 20242h 38mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:07

    Ryan Graves’ background: Navy F/A-18 pilot and aerospace engineer

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    2. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Nice to meet you, Ryan.

    3. RG

      Nice to meet you, Joe. Pleasure to be here.

    4. JR

      You're, uh, one of four or five people that I've talked to that have seen something that might be from somewhere else. It's always weird when you talk to someone that may have seen something that... Well, let's just first, before we even get started, please tell people what your credentials, what your background is.

    5. RG

      Sure. So, you know, my name's Ryan Graves, um, I have an engineering degree, mechanical and aerospace engineering. Uh, I promptly left doing that to go fly, uh, F-18s for the Navy as soon as I graduated college. Did that for about a decade, uh, both, uh, operationally in combat as well as an instructor, uh, role, teaching the new students. Um, and you know, we did witness something while we were flying in our jets, but, um, you know, we were doing it under... we witnessed it in the context of our just everyday flying and our missions.

  2. 1:07 – 2:41

    Radar upgrade reveals persistent unknown tracks off the East Coast (2013–2014)

    1. JR

      And what year was it that you witnessed this?

    2. RG

      So we started seeing these in 2014, was the earliest that I know. 2013, late 2013, early 2014.

    3. JR

      And could you describe, what was the very first experience?

    4. RG

      Yeah, so, uh, for me personally, the experience was simply just, um, flying out to the area like I would any other day, and instead of seeing an empty air space with just my, uh, wing person or another squadron doing something, a different block, there were all of a sudden a lot of different radar contacts, uh, which is immediately a problem, because, you know, we could be hitting one of those, uh, or someone working in our area, um, and this was happening because we upgraded our radar, the best we could tell. We were in a earlier radar called the APG-73, uh, and we had come back from deployment, we entered a maintenance phase, it's called, uh, we kinda do a little bit less flying, upgrade the jets if we need to, do any long-lasting, um, maintenance, and we upgraded to the APG-79, which was a much better radar.

    5. JR

      And what is the difference in the capabilities of the upgraded radar system versus the, uh, r-original system?

    6. RG

      Mm-hmm. So, you know, kind of practically speaking, it's like going from an analog TV essentially to like an OLED. It's, you know, a digital modern tool, uh, compared to more of like an analog, uh, classical radar that, um, has more limited range and has, uh, less ability to track multiple targets and things of that nature. So just generally speaking, we would exect- expect to see, you know, more objects, if there were any out there, or smaller objects, but, um, there shouldn't have been any objects out there.

  3. 2:41 – 4:11

    Where the encounters happened: offshore military working areas and ADIZ rules

    1. JR

      And so how far offshore are you when this is all going down?

    2. RG

      Our working areas start about 10 miles off the coast and then it goes out, you know, 100 or 250 miles or so, though we don't usually use those far eastern areas. Um, but we would only see them over the water, so they would really only be in our working areas, um, maybe slightly, you know, in between the working area and land, but never over the land. Uh, sometimes over the bays that are in the area that are quite large, um, but never just kind of zoom in west over land or anything like that.

    3. JR

      And is this restricted air space?

    4. RG

      It's not... So that's a tricky question. For us operating in a, in a military operating area, uh, it is not restricted in the sense that you have to be the... there's only one person allowed in there. Um, you could have these little Cessnas kind of bumbling in there, but they would get called out pretty quick, um, both from the kind of air traffic control agency that's working out there as well as the F-18s and the other, um, aircraft that may be working out there. Uh, but in a broader sense, when we look at it, uh, in relation to our Air Defense Identification Zone, which is essentially a band of air space that surrounds our entire country, if you are, uh, if your flight path originates, uh, out over the water outside of that ADIZ and you proceed into that ADIZ into our controlled air space, then you do have to, um, essentially have permission to enter that air space. It's not a restricted air space like a traditional, uh, bombing range, but it is protected air space. It's our, it's our coastal air.

  4. 4:11 – 7:05

    What the radars showed: erratic vectors, racetrack patterns, and ‘stationary in high winds’

    1. JR

      So you have this upgraded radar system, and what are you detecting?

    2. RG

      So on the radar, really what we can learn from that is essentially the kinematics of the objects, so where is it essentially, and you know, what direction is it going, how fast is it going, things of that nature. Uh, we can't necessarily make out the shape or things of that nature, so it's a representation. It's like a, a block on our screen to show that information. And so when we see that on our radar, um, we can tell, you know, where it's located, you know, perhaps what's located around it if there's other objects we're detecting, how fast it's going, what direction it's pointed in, um, what direction it's, um, traveling in. Um, so we call that velocity vector. So if we see this, this essentially little circle, it'll have a tail coming off of it, and that, that tail kind of represents the nose of the vehicle, at least as its flight path is going. And so with that, you know, we would typically see an aircraft just kind of trudging along with a, a straight line, taking occasional turns, um, but these objects had a little bit, um, more of a, I don't want to say random but more, um, less controlled, uh, flight path. That velocity vector would kind of jump around a bit more. Uh, they would not proceed in like a perfectly straight line as you would imagine like a, a flight navigation computer would take you, right? Uh, takes you from A to B in the straightest line possible. Uh, these objects seemed to kind of be moving in a direction that was, uh, not a straight line but generally proceeding in that direction, and so they would kind of be, uh, meandering slightly but moving in that general direction, both three-dimensionally and horizontally. So they would be-

    3. JR

      So winding around, going up, going down.

    4. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      So they're not on a flat plane and they're not going in a straight line.

    6. RG

      So, eh, I don't want to draw too many firm statements like that because we would see them being flat, too. We'd see them perfectly stationary up there, uh, regardless of the wind, uh-

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. RG

      Mm-hmm. Yup.

    9. JR

      Wow.So what kind of wind are you talking about?

    10. RG

      Oh, gosh. I mean, at altitude you can have anywhere up to 100, 120 knots of air speed.

    11. JR

      Which is, what is that in miles per hour?

    12. RG

      It's about 130, 140 miles an hour.

    13. JR

      So they're completely stationary with 140-mile-an-hour wind?

    14. RG

      Correct.

    15. JR

      How would something do that?

    16. RG

      It's confusing to me as well. Uh, even if we had something that could just burn that much energy, right, like if you had a sphere surrounded by little rockets, right, just imagining something right now-

    17. JR

      Okay.

    18. RG

      ... and if you wanted to keep that perfectly stationary, right, against, um, gravity, you could just fire all the rockets at the bottom really fast and hopefully keep it flat, right?

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. RG

      It's gonna have tiny little variations and then if you have wind hitting it and all this, you could potentially have those rockets try to counter it, but it would never be perfectly still in winds like that.

    21. JR

      Because the wind's not perfectly still either, right?

    22. RG

      Exactly.

    23. JR

      It changes and varies.

    24. RG

      It does. So it's almost like it's the wind's... it's not even really fighting the wind it seems, you know? It just seems like it's, it's just there in a way.

  5. 7:05 – 11:39

    From ‘broken radar’ to confirmed objects: FLIR correlation and propulsion/heat questions

    1. JR

      Wow. So the first time you see these things, what are your thoughts?

    2. RG

      Yeah. The first time really was, well, you know, what is this, right? It's not a UFO or something mysterious at this point. It's... Uh, what we're thinking at this point we see on the radar is just, well, our radar is broken, right? Um, these perhaps don't represent physical objects yet because we hadn't, you know, visually seen these or seen them on our camera yet. And so, you know, we kind of like, "Hey," you know, "what's going on here?" You know, "Is anyone else seeing this kind of thing?" But not really like investigating it, right? It just kind of like, all right, there was stuff out there but maybe next time we'll take a look. Uh, but the way our systems work when we have all this, all these contacts on our radar and if we kind of just, boop, select one out with our little cursor there, all our sensors go to it. Our FLIR goes to it, which is our camera system, uh, all our weapons, they have like their own little eyes in some sense and they all look in that direction, and so eventually, you know, someone had one of these selected and flew close enough so that, uh, as they look at their FLIR system, their camera, they could see something that was at the spot represented on the radar, right? So there was something there.

    3. JR

      So they were seeing it visually with their own eyes?

    4. RG

      Not at this point, just on the, the FLIR system.

    5. JR

      The FLIR system.

    6. RG

      And so that's a, it's a regular camera and also an infrared camera, and so typically we'll roll around in infrared just because it returns a better image, uh, typically, so... So yeah, you know, it didn't look like an object they were seeing on the FLIR, it just looked like a source of IR energy in a sense, almost as if someone was shining a flashlight, but something had to be there to be reflecting that energy or creating it. So at this point, to answer your question, now we're like, okay, this isn't just an error in our radar, this is perhaps, you know, we're thinking this is real, we have to really respect this as like a safety hazard now, um, even if it's just a small, you know... I, I, you know, however small ribbon of tinfoil, right, like that suck down the engine could still take out an aircraft, right? So we have to be very respectful of that.

    7. JR

      Hmm. Like a Mylar balloon type thing?

    8. RG

      Potentially, right, yeah.

    9. JR

      Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, how fast are these things going?

    10. RG

      So sometimes stationary, right? Um, sometimes they would be going around 0.6 to 0.8 mach, which is, at altitude, about, you know, 240 to maybe 330 knots, you know, around there.

    11. JR

      So somewhere in the range of an, an airplane?

    12. RG

      Yeah. Uh, and a fighter aircraft would be kind of flying around at those air speeds, except sometimes they would be perfectly stationary as well.

    13. JR

      Right. So it's not exhibiting any sort of patterns that you've recognized in the past?

    14. RG

      Uh, no. They have actually, so I'll note-

    15. JR

      B- but with the stationary, no, right?

    16. RG

      Correct. With the stationary, no. Uh, with the meandering kind of flight path, no, but I would also see them essentially fly what we call a racetrack pattern. Um, and essentially what that means is they fly in a straight path and then they do like 180-degree turn in a certain direction, then they fly a straight path, then turn again-

    17. JR

      Hmm.

    18. RG

      ... you know? So that's what we call a racetrack pattern as opposed to a circular holding pattern. Um, we did witness racetrack patterns, uh, in fact, I think there's been some cases off the West Coast just past couple weeks where people have also been observing, uh, object flying in racetrack patterns high at altitude with lights. Um, so I do recognize that behavior, but I don't necessarily that mean... I don't necessarily think that means we have to attribute it to normal behavior necessarily. Um, that type of flight path is important because it's a very efficient way to fly, right? If you have to maintain the position in a certain area, you want to minimize how much you're turning because anytime you're turning in an aircraft, you're using more energy than if you were just flying straight and level, and so by having that racetrack pattern, it's an efficient way of, of holding in a position by maximizing straight and level time and minimizing your turn time.

    19. JR

      And how long would these things stay up there for?

    20. RG

      So from my experience, from our experience, and again, we weren't studying these, but they were always out there, you know? They were-

    21. JR

      Always?

    22. RG

      ... out there when we took off, we'd see them and then we'd go to land, they would still be out there.

    23. JR

      Like every day?

    24. RG

      Every day.

    25. JR

      Every day?

    26. RG

      Every day.

    27. JR

      So you guys go from not having any idea that these things are out there through an upgraded radar system to seeing them every day?

    28. RG

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      What is the thought, like what, how are you feeling when these, like is there, uh, an evolution of the thought pattern of how you're, uh, addressing these things and thinking about them? Initially you're thinking they're errors. When do you start getting a thought that like, "What i- what the fuck is this thing?"

  6. 11:39 – 17:30

    The near mid-air and the ‘cube inside a translucent sphere’ description

    1. RG

      Yeah. So that happened when we visually saw one, and the first time we visually saw one, uh, the object was directly at what we call the entry, uh, point of the area. So, you know, that box that I told you about in the sky that starts 10 miles off the coast, uh, there's a particular GPS, you know, location and altitude where incoming traffic will fly in and outbound traffic will fly in the exact same spot, but, uh, will fly out 1000 feet lower. Um, there were two aircraft from my squadron, VFA-11, uh-... and we flew-- or excuse me, they flew, took off as a flight of two. Uh, that means they're essentially flying in a formation like this. Um, and as they hit the area, one of these objects went right between the aircraft. Um, the lead, uh, air crew saw the object. Um, the, uh, dash two aircraft crew did not, which is not surprising because they're usually, you know, you're very focused on, uh, flying formation. You're just staring right at that aircraft. The lead really has actual leeway to look around. So, uh, he saw it and, you know, he immediately came back. Uh, I have to assume he didn't have it on his radar 'cause he wouldn't have flown through this object at the working, at the entrance point. Um, he flew, he turned around and flew back, landed, and, uh, I was in the ready room when he had come back and, you know, he had all his gear on, which typically is not a good thing, uh, 'cause you wanna get that stuff off as fast as possible. So, usually means, you know, there's a problem of some nature. Uh, and, you know, he was just sitting there saying, "Hey, you know, I was hit with one of those damn things." Um, and we all knew what he was referring to even though we didn't necessarily have a, a name for it just because we were seeing these so much. Um, and he described it, you know. He described it just as a black or dark gray cube and that cube was inside of a, a clear translucent sphere. Uh, and essentially the, the apex or the corners of that cube, best he could tell, uh, were touching, uh, the inside of that sphere.

    2. JR

      And that description mirrors many of the descriptions that people have had of these, whatever you wanna call them. What they're, uh, they're calling them UAPs now for some strange reason. Right? UFOs is a, a, I don't know, does it have a dirty connotation to it? Is it tainted because of so many crazy people talk about UFOs? Is that what it is?

    3. RG

      It does come with a lot of assumptions baked in.

    4. JR

      Yeah. It, it's baked in, that's, yeah. So, that's some- but, uh, whatever it is, that is a design that people have reported seeing before, that this, uh, translucent sphere and this cube... Can you see through the cube?

    5. RG

      N- not to my understanding, no.

    6. JR

      So it's some sort of solid-

    7. RG

      Sorry.

    8. JR

      ... black cube that's inside this translucent sphere.

    9. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      And it's just floating around and flying around the sky.

    11. RG

      So, you know, that's, that's a good point. Is it floating around? Is it flying around? It's doing both, which is strange, right? 'Cause you could think of that description and go, okay, that's kinda some kinda weird balloon maybe-

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. RG

      ... with, with stuff in it. And that's, that's certainly, you know, one way, if you just view that angle of it, then i- it seems explainable. But when that, you know, the balloon-like object starts cruising around at, you know, .8 mach, you know, that, that nullifies that particular, um, idea. And you'll see, you'll see that a lot where it's not just, like, that one picture or that one behavior. It's really you kind of have to zoom out a bit and look at everything in relation to each other and say, "Okay, why is this weird?" You know? Okay, it wa- it was hanging out in a racetrack pattern. That's not exotic, but when you, you learn it was doing it for, you know, perhaps 13 hours, I'm-

    14. JR

      13 hours?

    15. RG

      You know, perhaps. They were out there all the time, you know? So, uh, you know, I land and I go back and we weren't on a, a, um, intel mission to analyze these, right? We're going to do our training. It's very expensive. $30K an hour to fly these things, right? So, um, really the only time we can put energy into looking at these things is when we're kinda transiting back and forth or waiting for a fight to start. Uh, and so, you know, it's never like, a dedicated analysis. Um, one of the problems I've had is that, you know, people haven't wanted to look into and, and to study this topic. And people ask me all the time, "Okay, you know, what were you seeing on the jet? What were you seeing in the radar?" I wanna be able to tell them that there was a, a great thing that we saw, but an F-18 is not a scientific tool. All right? We only get presented a certain amount of information, uh, th- when all the sensors essentially filter all, um, all the data out so that we can prosecute the targets and do our job. Uh, it's not some type of, like, analog, you know, information we receive. So, you know, just because say something is showing jamming on my radar from one of these objects doesn't mean the object is executing, you know, electronic warfare to jam my jet. It just means that, you know, it's doing something to our radar signal and when it comes back, you know, our jet is processing it like it's EW. So, we need to get proper scientific tools to do an analysis on these objects, uh, instead of basing, you know, a lot of our analysis right now just on tools of war that aren't built for that.

    16. JR

      Right. Um, how long can you guys stay up in an F-18?

    17. RG

      If we're dogfighting, about an hour. If we're holding at .6 to .8 mach, you know, like I des- described them as doing, somewhere maybe around, like, two, two and a half hours maximum.

    18. JR

      And you think that these things are up there for far longer than that?

    19. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      So, w- how big was this thing when this guy saw it?

    21. RG

      So, it's very difficult to tell in the air, but because they were flying in formation, we can make some estimated guesses essentially and that's what we did when we talked about it afterwards. Right? So the aircraft were about 100 feet apart. This thing, you know, they estimate it essentially split the section, which means it went more or less right down the middle, uh, but slightly closer to lead, which would put it somewhere less than 50 feet, you know, on average if they're about 100 feet. Um, you know, and then he, so he essentially used that, that size reference to say, "Hey, you know, this might've been somewhere in, like, the five to 15, you know, foot diameter." It's, you know, not a tight guess, but that's the best we could come up with.

  7. 17:30 – 18:46

    Day-after-day presence and squadron culture: jokes, focus on mission, and reporting barriers

    1. JR

      And what is it like, like, what, what's the atmosphere like when you go back to base? Are you allowed to discuss this? Is this something that's openly talked about? Is this something that you get ridiculed for?

    2. RG

      It just, you know, uh, like you would expect any group of, you know, dude and dudettes, you know, hearing about this that just kinda, you know, do the normal reaction like anyone else and they'll, they'll kinda, you know, make the jokes and then kinda get back to work essentially because, you know, w- we're just so busy at this time, right?

    3. JR

      Mm.

    4. RG

      We're getting ready for war.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. RG

      Like, it, for a lot of us, this is the, the apex of our career in a sense, to get ready for deployment, you know? And-... it's kinda like the long blade gets cut in a sense. In a fighter community like that, it's very much a trust-based, um, organization. So, you know, no one's out there looking to, like, make a big deal out of something that's completely irrelevant, you know, in our eyes, to our day-to-day operations, other than a safety risk. That's really, like, as much as we could process it. So yeah, there was ridicule, but I don't think it was, um... I wouldn't say it was, like, over the top or emotionally damaging. But, you know, it-

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. RG

      ... it made it clear it wasn't something to, like, you know, we were gonna, like, put serious thought and energy into. You know, it was, "Hey, yeah, stay away and, you know, let me know how you did in that next fight," essentially.

  8. 18:46 – 25:36

    Formal safety escalation: HAZREPs, NOTAMs, and the ‘maybe it’s classified’ hypothesis

    1. JR

      And when you discussed this, how many other people came forward with similar stories?

    2. RG

      It, it was less about people coming forward 'cause everyone was just like, "Well yeah, of course, we see them out there." Like, at this point, when we... It was almost a safety issue at this point. Um, well, let me back up. At first, you know, p-... As soon as people, you know... The joke subsided when people eventually flew in a jet with upgraded radar and saw it themselves, right? So, you know, it dwindled down where everyone was aware of this and it was just a safety hazard. Um, but when we almost had the mid-air, that kinda upped the ante, right? Because, um, we were kinda getting pissed at this point because, you know, the high probability answer was that this was some time of... some type of classified program, uh, of our own making that had perhaps just started operating, um, in an area they weren't supposed to, for whatever reason. Uh, and that was j-... You know, that was kind of our assumption. And so we submitted a safety report because of that near mid-air, uh, a HAZREP or hazard report, which is essentially a, a notice that goes out to the whole, uh, fleet that says, you know, this is a potential hazard that could cause a loss of an aircraft. Um, and, you know, it was due to us almost hitting an unknown object of unknown origin. Uh, and that's how it continued for a while, and there was a number of HAZREPs about that, about near misses. Uh, eventually they put out what's called an, a NOTAM, or Notice to Airmen, which is a published, um... It's published on a federal website which essentially lists things like, "Hey, the runway lights are down," or, you know, "They're working on this runway," or, "This area is closed for, for something." And we had one in our area, local area, that said, you know, "Caution for the unknown objects working in our, our operating areas." Um, "We just don't know what they are," essentially. So, that's just kinda where it stagnated at, at that point, as far as, you know, resolution.

    3. JR

      That's gotta be a very bizarre feeling. You're, you're flying around in these jets, preparing for deployment, and you see things that are, if not unexplainable, haven't been explained yet.

    4. RG

      Mm-hmm. It just didn't fit into our framework, right? Even if we look at... So, you know, when we were really kinda were trying to hash it out in the squadron, it's, you know, said, "Okay, what could these be?" And even the classified, you know, drone thing, and I, I'm not even gonna consider all the things that have happened since then, but even at, at this time, you know, the drone thing didn't make sense to us for a number of reasons. One of those is, you know, why? Right? Why are, you know, why do we have potentially hundreds or, or more, you know, small drones that can perform better than anything we've seen just hanging out, you know, for years off the coast, you know?

    5. JR

      And is there a visible method of propulsion that's coming from these objects?

    6. RG

      No. So-

    7. JR

      What about a heat signature?

    8. RG

      No.

    9. JR

      Oh.

    10. RG

      So, yeah. So there's no, there's no plume of, of heat coming out the back. There's no propellers. There's no wing surfaces that we've seen.

    11. JR

      And when you're looking at it, are you looking at it in, through some sort of an infrared that will detect heat?

    12. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      You don't see any of that?

    14. RG

      Usually through infrared, yeah. And so, you know, it'll, it'll come back as either a white hot or a, uh, a dark hot, which means, you know, black color is, represents heat.

    15. JR

      Hot? What is hot?

    16. RG

      Just the... It's essentially if we're looking at, like, a, an object against a, a blue sky, um, you know, if that thing's producing heat, then it's gonna come out white in white hot. All right? So, if I see a white object, it's gonna be a hot object, and the sky is gonna look blue.

    17. JR

      Wh- what are you... What's that word, hot, you're using?

    18. RG

      H-O-T.

    19. JR

      H-O-T. Oh, hot.

    20. RG

      Yeah, like the temperature.

    21. JR

      Like hot.

    22. RG

      Hot.

    23. JR

      Okay.

    24. RG

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Okay.

    26. RG

      Little New England accent coming out play there.

    27. JR

      No, it's okay. I'm from New England too.

    28. RG

      (laughs)

    29. JR

      I just thought, I thought it w- was something else. I thought it was, like, a technical term.

    30. RG

      Yeah. Um, so yeah, you know... And I say that just to say that, um, you know, it would just be, like, either all, like, completely one temperature essentially, right? It wasn't like the skin of an aircraft you could see. It was just kinda like an emission of IR energy, like a flashlight, right? Sometimes, most of the time it would be cold. Uh, it was like a cold object. And so it didn't appear to actually be emitting heat. Uh, I, there were times when they did appear to be emitting as hot objects as well. Uh, so we did see both, though I don't know what to make of that.

  9. 25:36 – 27:39

    Workups off Jacksonville and the Gimbal incident enters the story

    1. RG

      We were so mission-focused. And the point when we kind of left our squadron, we left for deployment in 2015, and so this was still happening. It was, it was prior to the point that they started putting that notice out to airmen, that NOTAM out, so they had still not even got to the point to have that general notice out. It was just people sending out the occasional hazard reports and, fl- from an individual squadron, and then we left for deployment. Um... Well, excuse me, we left for, um, we left for workups first, I should say. So let me, let me backtrack a little bit. As we get ready for deployment, we have our- our date where we leave, but then about six months prior to that, we're gone to the aircraft carrier and the different training command, or, um, training areas, to essentially get ready for that deployment and practice like we play, so right, we start going with the boat, we live on the boat, we start doing tactics off the boat. Um, and we left to go down to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida, uh, on a event where we essentially do exactly that. We fly out on the aircraft carrier and we do a number of tactical missions to simulate that we are, uh, in an operational theater. Um, and honestly, it's- it's more dangerous, and likely difficult in a lot of cases, than the actual combat deployment. You know, we're deploying, or we're preparing for every eventuality, air-to-air combat, you know, rescue missions, everything. But of course, you know, not everything gets exercised when you get out there, um, so it's actually, it's much more dangerous and pretty intense. Um, and so that's what we were getting ready to go do, and then we left and we did that. Um, and when we got down, down in that area from Virginia Beach, you know, we noticed that these objects were down there as well. Um, we didn't know whether they, you know, came with us or whether they were already down there. But, you know, once we started flying off the boat, you know, about, I don't know, 1,500 miles or so south of Virginia Beach, you know, there they were again. Um, and it was, it was in my squadron again when the, um, the video that's known as the gimbal video now, um, that, when that was recorded when we were on that workup cycle out in Jacksonville.

  10. 27:39 – 31:19

    Breaking down the Gimbal video: IR mode, apparent rotation, and what can/can’t be concluded

    1. JR

      We should play the gimbal video. Jamie, will you, uh, please pull that up? Um, 'cause I want you to kind of, uh, give us an understanding from your own expertise, like your technical understanding of what we're looking at.

    2. RG

      Yeah. So this is the FLIR.

    3. JR

      So here it is. Is this, so this is, uh, this is FLIR footage?

    4. RG

      Yep. So this, when I say FLIR, uh, this is what I'm referring to. And, uh, right in the middle of the top of the screen, you see IR, infrared. So, um, that's that infrared mode where we're seeing heat right now. Um, we are in black hot, um, so that means objects that are darker are hotter. So this object right in the middle, uh, is putting heat out.

    5. JR

      And right now, it's, it- it appears to be rotating? Is that what it was doing there?

    6. RG

      Yeah, exactly. So we do see this object ro- I mean, it looks like a gimbal. That's why it's called, I think... I didn't name it. Uh, but we do, we see the object essentially rotate from what looks like a horizontal position here. Um, those lines above it represent the horizon, so it's essentially parallel. There it goes.

    7. JR

      And it- it's hard to make out the shape of this thing, but it seems almost like a disc with, like, a- a- a crown on the top and the bottom.

    8. RG

      Yeah. It, kind of like, it looks like almost like a little, little bit of energy coming out from the- the poles there, if you will. That's kind of how I describe it. I see like a little bit of the dark, you know, heat emanating from there, or the- the energy as I call it.

    9. JR

      And- and is there any way from this video, from th- this, uh, equipment, to detect how large this thing is?

    10. RG

      Uh, there is. So, um, the velocity vector in the middle there can be set to a particular size, and that size correlates to a particular length. So that in a dogfight, if you have, um, uh, you know, you're behind a guy and you, you essentially... His wingspan is equal to the length of those two lines on that circle with the lines coming out, you see that-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. RG

      ... that's the velocity vector, then you know how far away he is. Right? So it kind, it's kind of like an analog thing that's not super relevant, like, in modern days. But yes, there is. I don't know, however, what that is set to in this one, so I can't, like, make that calculation for you right now.

    13. JR

      Now, I know some people who've attempted to debunk this and debunk even the rotation of this object. What, how do you know that that object is rotating?

    14. RG

      Um ... f-

    15. JR

      Definitively.

    16. RG

      Well, so f- we don't, right? We don't necessarily definitively know it's rotating at the end of the day, right? We have evidence that it is, but, um, I'm, I don't have definitive evidence that you're a conscious human being on the other side of the table with me either, but ... (laughs)

    17. JR

      I see what you're saying.

    18. RG

      You know what I mean? Like, we just don't have that information.

    19. JR

      So you only have video footage, and in the video footage, it appears right now, in relation to where it sits on the clouds, that it has rotated?

    20. RG

      Yes. So, you know, we can also...We can also see if you, if you, uh ... And I know it's been done. People have created models out there, uh, that, you know, essentially look at the clouds, and they, they draw out a flight path that this could be at. And the only variable is essentially how far away the object is. And that flight path obeys, you know, an equation that can be observed pretty readily when, you know, you build the little model. And essentially, if you're at, you know, six miles or so, the object is proceeding in a direction, and then when it starts to rotate as, as the air crew have described, it climbs and reverses directions. So you can't quite make that out, but when you, when you, when you actually model it out, you can see that at these ranges, it does what was, was claimed. And, uh, we're kind of skipping a little bit in the story, so maybe I should back up.

    21. JR

      Okay.

  11. 31:19 – 37:03

    The missing context: formation on SA page, ‘ping’ reversal, and why radar data wasn’t released

    1. RG

      So, you know, when we observed, uh ... When they- when this object was observed, um, the air crew essentially saw it on what they call a situational awareness page. And so that is a God's eye view of all the, um, sensor data and everything else that our jets and other jets, uh, put out, right? And so we can put cursors on and move it around, select stuff. And what the air crew described during this video verbally, uh, is a formation of objects and then the Gimbal object. So what happened was, you know, we had all gone out on an air-to-air training mission during this workup cycle off of the aircraft carrier, the Theodore Roosevelt. Uh, and again, we're off the coast of Jacksonville, Florida. And, you know, there's like four or five or six, you know, red fighters which are, uh, our own guys or gals acting as, um, the enemy, and then we go up and act as the, the blue fighters and go do our tactics. Um, I was part of the flight. We all flew up there. When we kind of run out of gas during the fight, you kind of just return by yourself, and if you still have gas, you continue the fight type of thing. Um, so we don't always fly home together. Uh, and in this case the air crew from the Gimbal video, you know, they knocked it off and started flying back to the boat. Um, we don't go like directly back to the boat when we run out of gas. It seems counterintuitive, but we have to wait for our landing time. Uh, we can't just come back and land earlier, so doesn't really matter where we are as long as we're nearby, and w- we just slow down to what we call our max endurance speed, right? So we just kind of cruise around, putt along out there, and just hang out until it's our time to land. Um, and so, you know, while they were doing this, they noticed that there was a group of contacts on their situational awareness page, again from their radar, and they're like, "Okay. You know, maybe this is like a penetration test," 'cause they'll launch aircraft from the coast, uh, you know, like old, old fighters or, you know, um, just things that can move relatively quick but, you know, not necessarily there to engage us in a dogfight, uh, to see if we can detect them and intercept them in time and things of that nature, part of the overall training. And so when they saw these objects, that's what they thought this was, and so they started flying over to it, um, and they got, you know, they got about, you know, six to seven, eight miles away. Six to eight is what the air crew told me. Uh, they didn't want to get any closer because it was nighttime at this point. They couldn't see the object, which is why they were only in the IR mode. Um, and they essentially, you know, they checked out for a bit and then circled a bit and then flew back essentially as it was time for their recovery. Uh, but what they saw was, you know, you saw the Gimbal object that we saw in the film, but there's also, there was also a formation of like four to five, I might say six, I don't remember the exact number, but somewhere in the four to six range, um, objects that were flying in a wedge formation, so essentially like a triangle without a base. Um, and those objects were kind of proceeding along the same line as the Gimbal. From my recollection, the Gimbal was, you know, slightly behind that formation, uh, and offset below it. And so that formation essentially kind of just turned in, in a, I'll call it left-hand turn in a normal radius of turn to slightly less, like but just got ... They got all jumbled up, so they just started turning instead of like a, a clean turn where they all kind of stay in the same spot, kind of a big sweeping thing. Instead of that, it was a lot tighter, and they kind of, kind of broke down. They didn't look like they were in formation anymore in a sense, you know? They were kind of scattered about. And I can't tell which one's which really out there, uh, on the radar looking at it, so I don't know if they came back in the same formation, exact same position, but when they rolled out 180 degrees out, basically reversed their direction, you know, they kind of got back into similar if not the same formation proceeding the opposite direction. And during this time, the Gimbal object, you know, again proceeding call it left to right, trailing this formation, uh, while it kind of executed its radius of turn, the Gimbal just essentially was continuing in a straight line and then as if it like pinged off a wall, just reversed direction to follow that formation, you know, once they had started flowing in the opposite direction. So note

    2. JR

      Just stopped?

    3. RG

      ... the turn radius.

    4. JR

      Stopped in midair and went backwards?

    5. RG

      I wouldn't even say stopped. It just seemed like it, it just like never stopped. It just went ping, you know? Just ...

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. RG

      You know? And that was, that's how we saw it from the, the situational awareness page from looking down, right? And so when you lift that up and look at it from the side, you know what that ping motion looks like is a U-turn, vertical U-turn to go in the opposite direction, right? So it climbs to reverse its turn to flow in the opposite direction within about 500 feet, which is very tight turn. Uh, I think an F-18 needs like 6,000 feet or, or 4,000 feet to do a turn like that. Uh, yeah.

    8. JR

      Wow. So there's nothing that we have as a drone that's capable of moving like that?

    9. RG

      So, yeah. Again, if you just look at one particular case, it's like, all right, so something climbed vertically and proceeded in a opposite direction. Like that's not the sexiest thing in the world. But then let's look back in context and say, okay, we're, you know, 350 miles off the coast in protected airspace around an aircraft carrier, you know, with only fighter jets in the air, and then all of a sudden there's a formation of small objects just kind of cruising around, you know, for a period of time that's unknown.... performing the least fuel-efficient turns possible, right? Like, there's no concern for how, uh, fuel-efficient that turn is. That's not, that's like the least efficient way to do a turn. Um, and so how is an object hundreds of miles off the coast, you know, with apparently no concern for fuel, um, hanging out next to our carrier?

    10. JR

      And without the FLIR footage, you would have never been able to see these things?

    11. RG

      Correct, yeah.

  12. 37:03 – 49:20

    Navy intel debrief reaction and leadership ambiguity: ‘holy shit’ and the admiral’s shrug

    1. JR

      Um, when you report this, what is, what's the reaction? Like, how did, how does that go?

    2. RG

      Yeah. Because we were practicing like we play at this point, getting ready for war, we were doing like a formal intel debrief after our flights, right? It's kind of like, "Hey, we intercepted these guys and did that, and the other thing." And so, the, the aircrew who recorded it were going down into that room to debrief it, um, and someone told me, like, "Hey, you know, your friend there got something interesting on the, on the FLIR this time and, you know, maybe you should go take a look or something." So, because I had already landed, my gear was off, you know, and so, uh, waiting to debrief essentially, and so I'm like, "Yeah, I'll go check it out." So I walk down there, you know, it's like the other side of the ship, uh, go in, it's a classified space, all the intel folk are in there. And they're queuing up the video, the tapes, to watch, uh, the FLIR footage.

    3. JR

      Hmm.

    4. RG

      And, now here's an interesting thing too, right? So, the situational awareness page, that screen I told you about with radar data, that's kind of in a screen that's, you know, chest-level, and then there's a screen here, screen here, uh, eye-level on either side. Uh, and if you recor- we, we put the FLIR here as standard procedure and the situational awareness page down here. And then we'll have our radar up here or any of our other systems. Um, if you record this screen with the FLIR, you record the SA page automatically, like it's part of the same tape. So, what's interesting is that, is that's what we watched when we were, um, in that intel space, you know? I was able to see the FLIR footage, uh, and that's what, you know, we just watched. And then the situational awareness page with the radar data, um, showed that as well, which, you know, showed the fleet and showed that movement I described. Uh, those are, you know, if that FLIR footage exists, then the radar data for that event exists as well, all right, because it's filmed the same time. So someone would have had to specifically split it off to, um, get the, um, the gimbal video out without the radar data, right? So-

    5. JR

      So the gimbal video was leaked? Is that what happened?

    6. RG

      I don't know the exact mechanics. My understanding, it was that's the way it could be described, but it was done within channels that, um, that doesn't make it, you know, an illegal activity. But I honestly don't know the mechanics of how it was released.

    7. JR

      So somehow or another, it gets out there and it gets online, but the situational awareness page and the radar data does not, you only get the FLIR footage?

    8. RG

      Correct.

    9. JR

      Why do you think that is?

    10. RG

      I think there's good reasons for that, you know, I don't think it's overly mysterious. You know, our radar sensor systems are our primary sensor out there, they're how we employ our weapons, and that's all fine. I think that's completely reasonable to not have that released, like-

    11. JR

      Because it's top secret, because it would be some sort of a, a, a breach of security?

    12. RG

      Yeah, it would give away like how well our radar works essentially, right?

    13. JR

      Right. Okay.

    14. RG

      Um, but with that being said, you know, there's still ways you can take that information and declassify it and just put the raw data out there in a sense, like the kinematics, right? Like, okay, this ob- we're detecting objects that move like this, you know, there's no location, there's no like specific, you know, there's, specifics have been kind of fleshed out. There's like mathematical tools that can do that with like, you know, precision and certainty. So there are ways to declassify that data. Um, one of the efforts that I'm doing at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, uh, with the UAP community of interest that I've helped put together is essentially preparing teams to do that, you know, analysis. We have a team of, of engineers, aerospace, and, and others that have, you know, over 300 years of NASA experience, you know, at least, that are working to put together, you know, engineering and scientific UAP sensing manuals that can be updated yearly so that the information that we learn going forward in a productive manner, um, isn't something that we need to necessarily get disclosed from the government in order to move forward on.

    15. JR

      Hmm. So when you're watching the FLIR footage and you're looking at the situational awareness page and you're seeing these objects, uh, you- uh, you've already had experiences with these things by then?

    16. RG

      So the gimbal was new.

    17. JR

      Like, with something.

    18. RG

      Yeah. We hadn't seen the gimbal yet though.

    19. JR

      So this is different than the other objects that you've seen?

    20. RG

      Yeah. So the gimbal object at this time-

    21. JR

      Wait, what is a gimbal, by the way?

    22. RG

      A spinning top, that's what I think of, right?

    23. JR

      Oh, okay.

    24. RG

      Yeah. And essentially, you know, and that induces a force that wants to keep it upright essentially, right? So as it's spinning, you poke it, and it kind of goes back to its center.

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. RG

      I, you know, again, I don't know where the names came from, but-

    27. JR

      Okay.

    28. RG

      Um ...

    29. JR

      But this particular shape of UAP, you had not witnessed before. Had you heard of something like this before?

    30. RG

      No.

  13. 49:20 – 54:35

    From stigma to structure: NYT 2017 catalyst, new reporting channels, and AIAA scientific push

    1. JR

      In 2017, it was kind of a, a milestone moment for UFO, um, just the discussion because The New York Times printed a story, and once it was on the front page of The New York Times, it was like, okay, this is a serious magazine, or this is a serious newspaper, and you have a serious discussion now about this thing that had been, for a long time, been ridiculed. And then, the Pentagon discusses it. You start hearing people ... wh- why do you think that's happening? Like, what i- what is it about this subject? Like, it must have been for you, in 2014, very bizarre when you have this new radar system that starts detecting these things. Now, you get this understanding of the fact that these things are there all the time, you just haven't been able to put eyes on them and you haven't had equipment that measured them accurately. Now, you do, and now there's this discussion of it in The New York Times. What, what do you think is going on?

    2. RG

      At the end of the day, I, you know, I wish I had an answer for you. I don't, but, you know, from my ... from where I'm sitting, you know, I th- I see a lot of people that seem to be paying attention more so now, especially after that article came out, myself included, right? I mean, I was part of it. I was witness to it, but, you know, just like everyone else, I kind of just let it be part of my history until I saw that article pop on The New York Times. Um, and, you know, I, I, I don't know why we are moving the conversation forward. I've listened to, you know, Chris Mellon talk about it. I've listened to Lou talk about it, and, you know, it's very simple when I talk about it because it's very simple. It's just, there are objects out there that our aviators are almost hitting, and for me, whenever I, you know, I engage this topic, it's always from that perspective of aviation safety. So, it's never really, like, engaging on this, like, crazy ontological, like, wave, right? It's just, it's me just working on a problem that I was trained for by the Navy. I was trained to be an aviation safety officer, right? So, um, I see the signs of the safety problem brewing. I s- you know, we're ... people don't want to talk about it. It's taboo, right? That's not how aviation safety works. It doesn't live in, in silence in a cone like that. Uh, you need to share lessons learned, and the government gets it now. The DOD gets it. That's why the air crew have a reporting mechanism now. They can come back after their flight, after they've seen one of these objects, uh, and they can report it. And, you know, I understand that reporting mechanism has, uh, an area where they can describe the shape of it. So, my hope is, you know, we can answer that question of yours, uh, once that data gets, uh, released. I, I hope it will at some point. It's classified at the moment.

    3. JR

      Do you have any understanding of how often these things get reported?

    4. RG

      I don't know how often they're getting reported. My fear is that if aviators don't get feedback from the work you're doing, they're going to stop reporting, right? Um, if you just keep reporting a safety hazard every day and it's just data collection and nothing solves it, then eventually you're just gonna say, "What's the point?" You know?

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. RG

      "I'm gonna just do my thing." And I've seen some declassified pilot reports. Um, some of these were from the UAP Task Force, um, report that came out, um, last year, and they're fascinating. The pilots are curious. They're seeing things they don't understand, right? They're seeing these interesting objects, f- uh, massive winds. They're seeing formations of objects flying around, behaving in ways they don't understand, uh, and they're looking for more. They're, they're saying, "Hey, if you have any more questions, you know, please reach back to me on classified if you need to." And my fear is that if they don't get that information back, that engagement, uh, with people collecting that data, it's gonna taper off, so, you know, I just wanted to make the plea that we consider that it's a two-way conversation with those air crew.

    7. JR

      Christopher Mellon, when I talked to him, he was saying that there's a lot more data, a lot more evidence out there that hasn't been released.

    8. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      And his understanding of it is that what you're seeing is just the tip of the iceberg, and that there's high-resolution photos and videos and that some of it is, you know, uh, for lack of a better word, disturbing, because you're, you're looking at something that doesn't make any sense in terms of what we understand, what's, what's physically possible with the technology that we have access to today.

    10. RG

      Yeah. You know, I have some volunteers within the, the AIAA work that I do that, you know, have been in a position to do that, right? Um, now that, again, there's been a new reporting mechanism, we're kind of moving into a new age with this, um, I can't, I can't, uh, speak to all the data that may be out there for the past, you know, X years, right? Um, again, it comes with a lot of assumptions and a lot of, um, unanswered questions, but from the new reports that they've started fresh with the Navy, and I applaud them for, you know, standing up and taking the lead on that. Um, the reports that we see is that, you know, this has continued to be a problem that is occurring. The number of objects, you know, they seem to be increasing. Uh, it seems to be happening everywhere we're looking, you know, so Navy bases on the West Coast, uh, and other places in the US and on the East Coast are seeing them. Um ... yeah. I'll, I'll just stop there for a minute.

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. RG

      Sorry. I do that occasionally.

  14. 54:35 – 1:14:42

    Broader implications: trans-medium claims, ‘other’ hypothesis, and Rogan’s AI/ontology detour

    1. JR

      It's such a squirrelly subject, man, and I- I'm really fascinated by the fact that these sightings seem to occur on a regular basis over the ocean, and, uh, Jeremy Corbell, who has had, um, video leaked to him. I, I use the air quotes "leaked" 'cause I don't know exactly how this is happening or what, why it's happening or why they ... I, I, I assume they're focusing on him because he's, uh, capable of releasing it in a very high-profile way. If he releases it, people are gonna pay attention. Um, but-One of the videos is of a trans-medium device, something that is, uh, apparently someone in the military filmed this, that it was flying above the ocean, and then went into the ocean.

    2. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Um, when you're seeing all these things, they appear around the ocean. Why do you think that is? Do you have any speculation?

    4. RG

      Well, you know, it's, it's... We're pretty blind down there at the end of the day, right? You know, we don't, we don't have, um, as good a SAL, say, and, or as much presence in the ocean as we do in the air, I would say. Um, yeah, we do have, you know, a lot of sensors and we can likely see certain things, but, um, uh, radiation, electromagnetic radiation doesn't, uh, propagate very well through water like that. So in a way it's kind of, uh, it'd be a good place to hide, I would suggest. Um-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. RG

      ... you know, there's talks of hydrogen being a useful fuel source, you know, and of course plenty of hydrogen in the water. Um, but this is all just pure speculation. I really don't know at the end of the day, but when we... I, you know, the video that you mentioned with that, that kind of trans, um, medium behavior went, you know, directly into the object like that, um, I'll just say that, you know, that is, that is very unique to see objects like that. You know, people argue about the shape or, or anything like that, but even if, you know, these objects are coming from, um, call it, call it a, um, near-peer threat, right, and they're still able to do these types of behaviors, at the end of the day, it really comes down to technological surprise, right? Whether that's an adversary on Earth or whether that's (laughs) you know, something else, it's the same process of understanding what the capabilities are so that, you know, come, come 2024, 2025, you know, we don't have, you know, a surprise that we can't counter, whether that's, you know, hypersonic objects flying around, uh, that happen to be UAP or whether they happen to be missiles, right? It's essentially the, the same problem.

    7. JR

      The problem is, yeah, we don't know if that's coming from an adversary or whether it's coming from an alien.

    8. RG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      And so we don't know how to react, whether this thing is observing us or whether this thing is an actual physical threat.

    10. RG

      I'm, I, uh, I've used the word threat before, and, um, for me as a pilot, when an aircraft is flying around out there and they're not talking to me, right? Like, say they ch- came into our, my area and I'm the only one out there and there's an interloper, that's a, that aircraft's a threat to me. Um, it doesn't mean he has hostile intent necessarily, but, uh, my aircraft could be lost if I have him mid-air, uh, if I start doing some tactics and I forget he's there and now I'm, you know, exhorting through his altitude. So he's a threat, very simply. Um, doesn't mean it's a bad guy or that he's got, you know, explosives on his plane, but it's the same way when I talk about these being a threat for aviators out there. It, it is a safety hazard. Someone could die. We could lose aircraft. Uh, I don't think that these objects are displaying hostile intent out there. But even just observation and collection of our, you know, electronic warfare, our communications, our, our radar frequency, all that information, if it was a, a, um, an earthly threat, you know, that would be very useful information that they could look to back engineer.

    11. JR

      Has there ever been any sort of design or discussion of a, some sort of a craft that can operate in a trans-medium way, that can fly through the air and then go into the ocean?

    12. RG

      Nothing that I've, you know, seen that's been created, really. I mean-

    13. JR

      How would n- uh, a propulsion system work that would go from the air into the ocean with, based on what we understand about, like, the abilities that we have today?

    14. RG

      Sure. Um, you know, on the surface, like to go from air to water isn't necessarily a complete challenge, right? Like, you can imagine something that can get dropped into the ocean and perhaps move around or, um, some type of mini submarine that comes up and then launches a UAV, right? And flies away. But just to be clear to people listening, that's not necessarily what we're talking about. We're talking about an object that is moving at a relatively, you know, quick pace and enters the water as if it wasn't there. And that's my... Is that what you understand?

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. RG

      Yeah. So-

    17. JR

      The way I understand it is it just went... (imitates object falling)

    18. RG

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Just went right into the water.

    20. RG

      And so, you know, that's, that's incredibly interesting for a number of reasons. You know, propulsion in the air, uh, versus propulsion in the water is, you know, typically pretty different. And once you start talking about high speeds underwater, uh, that kind of goes out the door, you know? High speeds underwater, 200 miles an hour or higher, uh, is not like 200 miles i- in the air. Um, and so when I think of something that can operate in both, the first thing I think of is that, you know, neither are concerned because of its, its operating system, whether that's air friction or whether that's, you know, the water drag that it would be exposed to. That's, like, the first kind of, like, out there thought as far as how this could operate. It would somehow be affecting, you know, the air or the water, right? The liquid around it, to, to move it around the aircraft or to, you know, negate the effect of all that force, right? 'Cause moving under water is just so much pressure, so much, uh, friction that it's just so hard to go fast.

    21. JR

      Did you watch that, uh, Jeremy Corbell documentary, Bob Lazar: Area 51 & Flying Saucers?

    22. RG

      Uh, I did. I did.

    23. JR

      What did you think of that?

    24. RG

      I, it was interesting. You know, I, I, I got a cool story for you here. When I was a kid, I was an avid explorer of the internet. Uh, and I had stumbled upon what I thought at the time was the coolest possible website ever. It was this guy selling all sorts of, like, radioactive rocks and, like, cool scientific equipment (laughs) .

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. RG

      And I was like, "This is the coolest website." Like, this is why the internet was built. Uh, and, you know, fast-forward, you know, many years later, I learned that, you know, that was Bob's website.

    27. JR

      Oh, United Nuclear.

    28. RG

      Yeah (laughs) .

    29. JR

      Oh, wow.

    30. RG

      I heard it... It might have been in that movie, actually, in the, or the documentary, and, uh, yeah, I was like, "Holy smokes. Like, that's that guy."

Episode duration: 2:38:44

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