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Joe Rogan Experience #1885 Andy Stumpf & Mike Sarraille

Mike Sarraille is the CEO of EF Overwatch, an executive search and talent advisory firm, and leadership consultant with Echelon Front. He is a former Recon Marine and retired US Navy SEAL officer with twenty years of experience in Special Operations, including the elite Joint Special Operations Command.  https://mikesarraille.com/ Andy Stumpf is a retired Navy SEAL, record-setting wingsuit pilot, BASE jumper, public speaker, and host of the popular podcast "Cleared Hot." www.andystumpf.com triple7.givesmart.com

Joe RoganhostAndy StumpfguestMike Sarrailleguest
Jun 27, 20242h 27mWatch on YouTube ↗

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  1. 0:01 – 2:41

    A grossly honest opener: dip addiction, nicotine, and gum recession

    1. NA

      (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

    2. JR

      So tell me about your dip problem. (laughs) What happened?

    3. AS

      Tell us about your disgusting mouth.

    4. JR

      Is this how I start? (laughs)

    5. MS

      (laughs) Yes. Well, so I- I- you know, you talked about high school. You did in high school.

    6. AS

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      I did it one time.

    8. JR

      He's gotta turn it on you.

    9. AS

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      You did it one time.

    11. AS

      One time in high school and never touched it again. Go ahead, mister 19 years.

    12. JR

      Mike was-

    13. MS

      (laughs)

    14. JR

      Mike was just saying that he had to get his skin grafted-

    15. MS

      (laughs)

    16. AS

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      ... and he's like, "You did it once."

    18. AS

      (laughs)

    19. MS

      Well, I- I remember the first time I did. Somebody gave me Redman Chew, and it was over. I was just yakking everywhere. Where I started was in the Marine Corps is, uh, when we're in a hide site, you have to stay awake when it's your turn for security, but that can be like 3:00 AM in the morning after you've been hiking for like six hours.

    20. JR

      Right.

    21. MS

      So eventually my team leader's like, "You are gonna put a dip in to do whatever it takes to stay awake during your watch."

    22. JR

      Does dip keep you awake?

    23. AS

      The, uh, nicotine does.

    24. MS

      Yeah.

    25. AS

      It should.

    26. JR

      But dip will?

    27. AS

      (inhales deeply) Yes.

    28. MS

      Absolutely. And so it- it morphed from there in the Marines, and we lived... I like to say we lived off of three things on deployment, water, coffee, and dip. And even on a patrol with these guys, I would have a dip in, chewing caffeine gum-

    29. JR

      Jesus.

    30. MS

      ... and drinking water.

  2. 2:41 – 5:41

    Who’s Mike Sarraille? Marine Recon to SEAL officer—and meeting Andy the "logic dick"

    1. JR

      Andy, people know you, Andy Stump. Mike, please introduce yourself. Tell you how you know this degenerate.

    2. MS

      Yes, absolutely. I'm actually embarrassed. Uh, Mike Cirelli, born in California as well. Enlisted in the Marine Corps, was a recon marine and a scout sniper, and eventually crossed over to the SEAL teams as an officer and retired after 20 years, like Andy. We served at the same place. But I've got to tell you about the first time I met Andy. Um, because people ask me like, "What's Andy Stump like?" Because I meet people and they're like, "Oh, Andy Stump." I'm like, "He is a real dick."

    3. AS

      Andy?

    4. MS

      Andy is a dick.

    5. AS

      He's always been nice to me. How weird.

    6. MS

      Uh, yeah. (laughs)

    7. JR

      I don't remember the story.

    8. AS

      Always been a good friend. Always been friendly. The story he's about to tell-

    9. MS

      (laughs)

    10. AS

      Great sense of humor.

    11. JR

      Yeah, I'm not sure.

    12. AS

      Handsome guy, little reckless.

    13. MS

      So we're in SEAL Team 3, and SEAL teams are younger. The average age is what? I think like 19 to 23.

    14. AS

      At a conventional team? Early 20s at best.

    15. MS

      Early 20s at best. And so there's a bunch of officers in the operations room at SEAL Team 3, and we're talking. There's a lot of groupthink going on. We're- we're badmouthing the leadership on a decision that was made. And all of a sudden, this guy walks in who's got just a... He's in his uniform, which is rare. He must be checking in. He's got this big stack of ribbons to our two rows of ribbons. And we're talking, he's listening in. We sort of see this guy in the background, and which was odd was he... You stepped in and you're like, "I think you're all wrong." And he killed us with logic, because remember, each of us has like two combat deployments at this point. We think we have it all figured out. And Andy's coming in with his eight combat deployments and just destroys us.

    16. JR

      What was he... What were you guys wrong about?

    17. AS

      Everything.

    18. JR

      What were they saying?

    19. AS

      I don't even fucking remember this interaction.

    20. MS

      (laughs)

    21. AS

      He could be making this all up.

    22. MS

      No, it's not. So I forget the subject, but two of us left the room and I remember... I can't remember if I looked at him or he looked at me and he's like, "Was that guy a dick?" I'm like, "Yeah, he was a major dick."

    23. JR

      But was I right?

    24. MS

      You were right.

    25. JR

      All right then. Fuck off.

    26. MS

      I think that was the problem that was wrong.

    27. JR

      What were you guys wrong about?

    28. MS

      So, you know, you get a little experience. It's like the Dunning-Kruger effect. You get a little experience under your belt and you think you have everything figured out.

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. MS

      For a young SEAL, whether enlisted or officer with two combat deployments, you think you're the top dog. The way the conventional SEAL teams work is that's a lot of combat experience for the conventional SEAL teams. But he was coming from a different side, a side we all knew about but knew very little about.

  3. 5:41 – 7:08

    Conventional teams vs. high-tempo units: how experience compresses

    1. AS

      You know what's interesting though? Um, two combat deployments at a conventional SEAL team is four years because you got to do an 18-month workup, six-month deployment. Maybe they'll push you out to 12, depending on what's going on operationally. The deployments that I came back with was like three and a half years worth. So the velocity that I was getting the experience was just...... crazy different in the compressed nature of it, because it would be overseas for 90, back for 180. Overseas for 90, back for 180. And just constantly going and going and going and going. So about the same amount of time, but four times the amount of experience.

    2. MS

      Wow.

    3. AS

      Yeah.

    4. MS

      I will say, the, the guys I left SEAL Team 3 and I went to where he was coming from, when I called back, uh, 'cause they were on deployment in Afghanistan. They were like, "Dude, that guy rocks." I mean, because he brought all this experience, all the planning experience, uh, a- and you basically embedded in a, a platoon.

    5. AS

      It was amazing.

    6. MS

      Yeah.

    7. AS

      I got a .300 Win Mag, a Javelin missile, and I just was laying heat down (laughs) with both of those things. It was awesome.

    8. MS

      (laughs)

    9. AS

      (laughs) They would say, "What high ground position do you want to go to?" I'm like, "This one looks good right here."

    10. MS

      (laughs) So th- the guys ... A- and after I heard that, the guys loved him. I ... Y- you know, first impressions, I was totally wrong. But how often does that happen? Especially in the SEAL teams, where you meet a guy for the first time and you're like, "I hate that guy."

  4. 7:08 – 9:26

    Competition vs. camaraderie: the glue is shared adversity

    1. JR

      Well, I gotta think everybody's like super alpha, hyper-aggressive-

    2. AS

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... and also a little bit of combat experience, full of piss and vinegar.

    4. AS

      And everything's a competition.

    5. JR

      Oh.

    6. AS

      Everything is a competition.

    7. MS

      Almost to a detriment.

    8. AS

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      How do, how do the teams balance out that with comradery? The competitive with each other, but also comradery. Like, how do you avoid the, the internal conflict?

    10. MS

      So, I think there's a line you don't go beyond, but, you know, you look at the civilian populous, one of the things that they totally lack is something called shared adversity that we have in spades. And, and you, you know, with guys you rolled with for years, you could not see them for 10 years, you see them, all of a sudden, it's like you saw each other last week.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. MS

      When you go through BUD/S or you go through the hard training ... 'cause BUD/S is not th- the end of the, the hard training, there's this, this homecoming, belonging, this relationship, esprit de corps built that, that will never die. And so while we promote competition, it pays to be a winner, as we say, there's a line at which if somebody wins, if Andy wins, the question now is, "Okay, Andy, what did you do differently than us?" And share that, that ... Y- you know, transfer that knowledge to us, so that we can, uh, elevate our game as well. So we understand, you know, Proverbs ... was it 27:17? Um-

    13. AS

      Are you asking me? I have absolutely no idea.

    14. MS

      Iron sharpens iron as one man sharpens another's.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. MS

      So you understand that. But, uh, we understand competition makes the world go round, to a point.

    17. JR

      To a point.

    18. MS

      To a point. But at the end of the day, he's gonna enter a room ... Well, first off, I'm an officer. Nobody ... I wasn't entering any rooms. He was for most of his career. But, uh, you know, I might be on his back and he's trusting me, so if he's got knowledge, he's gonna transfer that knowledge to me in training before we go to war, to make sure that I'm the very best to cover his six.

    19. JR

      The thing about th- things like, whether it's SEALs or any high level military operation group, whene- whenever you're dealing with people that have d- done something that's extraordinarily difficult, there's like a rite of passage that you guys have gone through that a lot of people think is missing from p- particularly young men in our society and culture. There's no real moment where you recognize that you've, you've done something incredibly difficult and you've actually become a man.

  5. 9:26 – 14:08

    The viral tear-gas video: why brutal training exists (and why filming it was a mistake)

    1. AS

      It almost seems like society is pushing it the other direction, where that shouldn't exist or it should be avoided.

    2. JR

      Even with the teams. One of the things I- I hear is this narrative that it's too difficult.

    3. AS

      I think you gotta consider the source-

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. AS

      ... on that one. You know, like, the most recent thing that came out, I'm sure you saw this, Mike, was the ... There was a video of training that occurred at ... Pretty sure it was on San Clemente Island, 'cause that's where they CS gassed us. And there's guys who are outside and they're getting exposure to CS gas, (clears throat) which I remember before I joined the military, if you look at any movie, probably up to and including, like, Full Metal Jacket, or if you even went into a recruiting office, exposure to CS gas is something that you do in basic training. Except, do the air ... I don't know if the Air Force does it.

    6. MS

      Uh, yeah, I don't know.

    7. AS

      Let's assume that they do. Probably they don't, but let's assume that they do. It was completely standard and normal to see. And that room sucks. You go into a room, you have a gas mask on, and they make you take it off, and they make you either do something or say something or talk so you can't hold your breath. That's the point of all that. So this video comes out of students that are outside, which, one, is a, actually a huge advantage, 'cause it dissipates quickly, especially if there's any kind of wind. And they're getting gassed. And there's already issues with the story that I'm telling, 'cause, one, who the fuck is filming this? Like, it, it ... Just the fact that there was somebody there who was filming this thing and it made it onto the internet in any way, shape, or form is a, is a mistake in and of itself.

    8. JR

      So it couldn't have been someone who was in the program?

    9. AS

      There was no-

    10. MS

      It was an instructor.

    11. AS

      It had to have been an instructor.

    12. JR

      It had to be an instructor.

    13. AS

      The ... So the students, the last four weeks of training, you go out to San Clemente Island. It's called third phase. And you get a very basic indoctrination into small unit tactics, rifle, weaponry, explosives. You throw some grenades. Um, you do some underwater demo. But you're out there for, like, the last tight four weeks of training. The students, I mean, I don't even remember having a cellphone when I went through actually in '97. I'd be shocked if they're allowed to have cellphones down there, so it had to have been an instructor. But they're getting gassed. They are being made to sing Happy Birthday again so you can't hold your breath. And it looks horrible, because it is horrible. And the point of that training is, is it's supposed to suck. It's supposed to be difficult. You're supposed to be exposed to that in a controlled training environment. People are like, "Well, this one person looked like they were passing out and there's mucus coming out of their face." Yeah, it's, it's CS gas. It sucks. But the first time you experience that shouldn't be in a combat zone. So, it's a volunteer only program. You can leave this particular training block if you want to at any given time. And, oh, by the way, every branch of the military exposes their people to this. So, although there are people who are saying, "Yeah, it's too difficult," you have to ... I think you have to consider the source. I don't think they know what they're talking about.

    14. JR

      We expose people to it on Fear Factor.

    15. AS

      ... yeah. Again, voluntary.

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. AS

      And if they did-

    18. JR

      Police officers.

    19. AS

      And if they didn't want to-

    20. JR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    21. AS

      ... I bet you they came out like, "You know what, Mr. Rogan? I, I'm done with this episode. Like, I'm out of here."

    22. JR

      Yeah. So, what, what happened with that particular video?

    23. AS

      It made its way onto the internet and it... Because of what it looks like, it looks like exactly what it is, a really shitty evolution where you can't breathe, your sinuses are running more than you ever have had them run in your life. You can't see, you can barely talk, you're choking, you're gagging. Some people throw up, so it made it onto the internet and people started saying, "How could you do that?" Like, "This, this is too brutal of training. How could you possibly do this?"

    24. JR

      That's weird that people on the internet had opinions. So, they just had opinions?

    25. AS

      Did you just say it was weird that people on the internet have opinions? (laughs)

    26. JR

      I'm joking.

    27. MS

      Clearly, I'm being sarcastic.

    28. AS

      Okay.

    29. JR

      But the fact that anybody paid attention to those opinions, that's, that's-

    30. AS

      It trended for a while. It, it actually... Not only did they have opinions, it, it started getting shared-

  6. 14:08 – 15:40

    Death in training, infections, and media narratives around the teams

    1. AS

      ... and you're, like, dry heaving. The reason... I would say the reason that this is probably the bigger issue is that there was a high profile death in, uh, SEAL training not too long ago, uh, with a student who had just completed Hell Week and died in the hospital shortly thereafter. Um, the young man's mother is a nurse, and she's very vocal about what has happened, and there was an investigation involving that. So, it seems like, um, not to... Uh, I mean, horrendous to lose y- uh, your son in any way, shape, or form. I don't want to take anything away from that. But from that incident, you know, this is like another layer on top of the onion on something that people were already talking about which in, you combine the two and peop-... It just seems like... For one, I wish SEALs could get the fuck out of the news, in general. But since it starts, you know, they're layering on top of each other, it can seem to be a bigger deal than it is.

    2. JR

      What did he die from?

    3. MS

      Infection.

    4. AS

      Yes.

    5. JR

      (sighs) And, and so during Hell Week, you've got open sores, you're, you're in the water which isn't far from the Tijuana where it drains off. Uh, so th- there's... That's always been a concern and we mitigate it extremely well. Uh, and first off, my condolences to the mother 'cause this kid was a stud. He was the captain of the Yale football team. He was gonna become a SEAL. He passed the hardest, uh, stages of- So, was it like a staph infection?

    6. MS

      It was a staph infection. And you look at the source, um-

    7. AS

      Bacterial pneumonia.

    8. JR

      Bacterial, yeah.

    9. AS

      Yeah.

    10. MS

      You look at the source-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MS

      ... this, this is all New York Times.

    13. AS

      Yeah.

    14. MS

      It's a string of, of reporters from New York Times-

    15. JR

      It's the same authors.

    16. MS

      ... that have just been... They've had a hard on for the SEAL teams. They have been going out. In fact, they wrote a book, and you have the author, Matt Cole.

    17. AS

      Mm-hmm.

  7. 15:40 – 19:07

    Eddie Gallagher and NCIS: acquittal, reputational damage, and investigative tactics

    1. MS

      Um, Code Over Country.

    2. AS

      Yeah.

    3. MS

      And, and they have just, for the last half decade, if not more, have made it their personal crusade to bring down, down the SEAL teams. And the Eddie Gallagher incident did not help. But here's what I'll say. One, Eddie is a friend. Eddie didn't handle all situations well. But it's amazing how Eddie can have... And I think Eddie had like, eight combat deployments. How he can serve honorably, and he was number one at the SEAL team, his SEAL team, I think for, for-

    4. AS

      I don't know.

    5. MS

      ... for E6, I believe. He served honorably for 19 years, and the last incident he's involved in, which he was acquitted for, that defines his entire career. The last sentence of his chapter as a SEAL defines all the 19 years and all the good work that he did in defense of our nation for those who would never even think of serving.

    6. JR

      And he was, uh, acquitted. Um, what was the charge again? It was, uh, there was a... It was something about a detainee?

    7. AS

      I think the charge was murder.

    8. MS

      Yes. It wa-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. MS

      It was, it was a ISIS prisoner that had been wounded in a strike. And, uh, while rendering medical aid, they, they, uh, accused Eddie of murder.

    11. JR

      But he was acquitted.

    12. MS

      He was acquitted.

    13. JR

      Yes. But they still don't appreciate that he was acquitted. Like, they still treat him like he's guilty.

    14. MS

      Some of the things I've seen in the press, um, and, and I'll keep reporters out of it. One, I can't remember their names, but, uh, a lot of the liberal news media, uh, just have painted him as a war criminal, bottom line. And his life has been impacted. If you look even at... So, first off, NCIS-

    15. AS

      Naval Criminal Investigation Service.

    16. MS

      The branch in San Diego was never held, held accountable for, let's just say, bad practices that they, uh, implemented while trying to bring Eddie down. They also had a hard on. NCIS is not always, uh, your friend. And they're looking to make a name for themselves as well. And in fact, I was, I was investigated the day I retired by the same crew of people from NCIS San Diego, uh, only six months previous to when the whole Eddie Gallagher thing, uh, uh, sort of came on. But, uh, I mean, they tapped or they put a bug into Eddie's lawyer's emails so that they could read all the documents coming into that lawyer. They, they did some pretty, uh, pretty lame tactics and they were nev- never held accountable.

    17. JR

      Is that... Is it legal to do that?

    18. MS

      No. The, the initial lawyer was, uh, was fired, relieved, and they replaced him, uh, rapidly but- Was he relieved from military service? No, he was laterally transferred.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. MS

      Laterally transferred, and that's how they dealt with it.Jamie, go back to that article again. I wanna, uh, see something when you first pulled up, uh, the, uh, what the, the first initial complaints 'cause I wanna, uh, uh, scroll ... Yeah, right there. So, they were talking about, uh, the protocols la- la- here. "Let me be clear, we have absolutely zero tolerance for hazing, abuse or deviations from safety protocols. Uh, as Navy SEALs we serve our fellow Americans. Uncompromising integrity is our standard. Our character and honor are steadfast. Most of all, we are expected to lead by example in all situations." So, if that is like standard operational procedure for th- those kinda training s- uh, programs, why, why does he have to say that?

    21. AS

      (smacks lips) So, as-

  8. 19:07 – 33:05

    BUD/S isn’t ‘hazing’: curriculum, oversight matrices, and why risk can’t be zero

    1. MS

      It's not hazing, right? It's-

    2. AS

      It's not w- I mean, you could (sighs) ... Could you haze somebody with tear gas? Yes. What I'll say is this, as somebody who was a BUD/S instructor, there is an evolution sheet and matrix for every single thing that happens in training, to include remediating the students. When they fall short of a standard, um, there are limits to how long you can remediate them for. There's limits to the exercises that you can use. There is an oversight matrix of who's in charge of the evolution, what's the ratio gonna be student to instructor? There is, somewhere, a matrix, an evolution sheet for exposure to CS gas in BUD/S. There is absolutely no way that those instructors were like, "Hey, uh, hey Mike, you doing anything tomorrow at two? Let's go gas these fuckers." Like, that, that doesn't happen. Every single day in BUD/S is templated. Why that person said that, I'm not sure, but as somebody who worked in that pipeline with that curriculum, it exists. Um, and what they need to say is, "Yeah, there's a reason that we do this, and the reason that we do this is so that their first exposure isn't in an environment where their life might be on the line." That would actually shut it down, because what that does is it leaves the door, and it leaves question in people's minds. Did they, did they make a mistake? Were they hazing people? Do we need to do this?

    3. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AS

      My resounding answer is yes. And also, I'll add to that. My answer when people ask me about students who have died in BUD/S, and I think there have been 10 in the history of BUD/S since the '50s, is that it needs to continue to happen. I don't want it to happen. I don't want anybody to lose their life, but if the training becomes so exceedingly safe that that's not a potential, then we're not serving people in that training and we're not preparing them for what the battlefield's gonna expect of them.

    5. MS

      I'll, I'll, I'll push against you on that one. If you explain it to the American public, more than half still won't understand. They will still view it as brutal, as, uh, as, as unnecessary. But, you know, the- there's been a push to make the military a playground for progressive policies and it is the last place, politically, that we want people playing. And, I mean, you even see China has a, has an initiative to actually make their men more masculine. Yeah, I saw that.

    6. AS

      And, and we're going the opposite, uh, opposite direction, you know. There is a diversity, equiti- equity and inclusion chief at the Pentagon now who wrote a book that basically called the first responders, um, menaces, and, uh, you know, basically painted them as, as white supremacists. And, um, it's going a- a- a very bad direction. I will say this about the military. What people don't understand is it is highly professional. I've always been impressed. There are standards, there is doctrine, and instructors know that they follow that playbook, they mitigate risk to the lowest level because you always have the risk of getting investigated for something like this.

    7. MS

      So, who's letting these progressive policies infect the military? How, how is that ever an option? Is that just people who are blissfully unaware because they're on the outside? Like, how is that, how does that ever get in to the point where you're considering things like elite groups, like the SEALs, having to deal with this s- sort of politically correct nonsense? Personally, I think the, the policy of transparency that was made, or popularized, by President Obama, and, and this isn't ... I'm not attacking President Obama. He was aggressive on the war on terror. He made a lot of aggressive, uh, decisions. But there are certain communities where transparency, like the CIA Special Operations, is not the best policy, is they should remain in the shadows, and there should be, uh, just public trust that we are doing the right things. We don't want anyone to pass away in training. We, we, we don't wanna get anyone hurt. Um, but we also don't want to advertise our capabilities or our training or our capacities to potential, uh, military peers, like China or Russia. So, uh, the transparency for me, uh, propaganda, do it with the regular military, keep, keep special operations out of the public. But even doing it with the regular military, like, why?

    8. AS

      Yeah.

    9. MS

      Like, what is-

    10. AS

      I don't know-

    11. MS

      What is that?

    12. AS

      I don't have an answer for how it, it started infiltrating other than it seems to be the groundswell. I mean, the military is just a, is just a group of people from normal society, so I don't think it's uncommon to see things that our society is dealing with working their way into the military. But I do hope that there is a backstop against it. And in my mind, it e- everything needs to be worked in a reverse direction. What is it we're asking these people to do in the real world execution of their job? Now, let's work our training pipeline to prepare those people for that. I don't know where the progressive ideology falls into that or how it infects that or how it got started, um, but ... And I'm a little bit detached from the teams at this point. I've been out now for almost 10 years, but I still stay in contact with people and what I am hearing, though, is that it is pushing at the corners and it is pushing at the edges, and it's not enhancing what they're doing. In their, in their words, not mine, because again, I've been out of it for almost a decade. In their words, not mine, it's not enhancing their ability to perform on the X or the objective.

    13. MS

      But I can't understand if the SEALs are filled with guys like you guys, how does it even get, how does it even get discussed?There's a melting pot.

    14. AS

      ... on the curve even in the SEAL teams. Uh, there, there's a, uh, you take even the command that we served at, at which it's not impossible to get to, it's a little bit more difficult, but if you take a team of 50 people, you're gonna have your bottom 10% and you're gonna have your top 10%, and everybody else in between. And it is a melting pot. I mean, I served with people who were res- just devoutly religious, devoutly religious, and then people who, come to find out later, were sociopaths and we, and m- serial killers. We've talked about that on a previous cont- uh, podcast, but, and everything in between. So, there is diversity of ideas inside of the SEAL community. People think, "Oh, it's only people who lean to the right," and I would say there are more people who lean to the right, but there are plenty who lean to the left. And we're talking ... I mean, I remember team room conversations about religion, about politics, about sexuality, and there was never like, "Yep, that's it," and we all slapped the table.

    15. MS

      S- let me see. Well, to his point, I wrote a book about this called The Talent War: How Special Operations and Great Organizations Win on Talent. It was about performance and about building high-performing teams and how the special operations goes about it. 'Cause when you think about it, in the private sector, people hire you based on how much industry experience y- you usually have. Well, in our profession, I can't go to a high school or a college and say, "Who here has special operations experience?" Nobody would raise their hands. So by nature, the assessment and selection process which we're talking about, Basic Underwater Demolition School, is hire for character, train for skill. And that's why we push these men and women to their limits, their mental and physical limits, 'cause that's where true character emerges, and that's what we're looking for. We're looking for mental toughness, resiliency, the ability to work as a team, and that brings up a point. You know, one of the former commandants in the Marine Corps just wrote an article a- and basically was, was arguing keep your hands off the military. The military runs off a, uh, uh, a different set of ideologies. Those ideologies are, uh, conformity to a degree, which conformity is not always a bad thing. You know, if you have a baseball team, you want some conformity to SOPs, standard operating procedures, uh, but it's also to operate as a team. So, in this training, we break people down in their individual selves and we build them up as a team player, where the public sector sort of, let's say they, they, they trend towards individuality, which is not bad either. We do want people to be people. Like Andy has a personality, I have a personality, and we almost breed this, I, I like to call it in the, the SEAL teams, a healthy disrespect for authority, to push back against my or- m- you know, I don't wanna say my orders. I never gave orders. "These are my orders." I've never said that, but, "Hey, here's my decision. This is what we're gonna do." If it's not a good ide- idea, and I outrank Andy, Andy's gonna come back and be like, "Yeah, we're not gonna do that. That's stupid and this is why." So he does it in a professional and tactful way. But I, I'm sick and tired a- and, you know, I do place very high-performing veterans into jobs. That's what I do for a living, but people based off Hollywood have these bad sort of perceptions of what the military is. It's 'cause Paramount and Warner Brothers don't paint us in a good light. We're not the Chris Kyles. Uh, this guy and all the guys I served with were the most lethal warriors in the world. I was not ... I ended up there and I was proud to be part of a team. I, I told Andy, "Always a bridesmaid, never a mi- uh, uh bride."

    16. NA

      (laughs)

    17. AS

      Meaning I was part of a good team. We got, we got that mission done, we got that bride married, but the most lethal warriors I knew who no one will ever know in the public were kind, empathetic, respectful, and they loved their fellow man, and they were husbands, they were fathers, they were sons, they were, they were wives, daughters, mothers, and when they needed to dial empathy down and do the, the, the bad part of a job, they did it and they did it with, with, with lethality, and then they dialed the empathy back up. But people na- naturally gravitate towards Hollywood and they paint this bad picture as our veterans, and I will always ... I mean, I came from Atherton, man. It's one of the most affluent towns in, in, in America and I ended up amongst, uh, a lot of guys that came from nothing and their character far outweighs a lot of the people I know in the public sector.

    18. MS

      What is it about these movies? Like why, why do they paint veterans in that way and why does it permeate our culture? Like that ... Y- you would think that depictions in fiction would not overwhelm the reality of w- what, what is needed and what gets done, but it kinda does.

    19. AS

      I think it's harder to tell the full story when you have a time compressed medium to tell that story in. If you wanna have people put their butts into seats, and it's, uh, in the last 20 plus years of sustained combat operation, you're probably gonna make a movie about things exploding, bullets flying over your head. You might dive into a little bit of the storyline on some people's lives, but it's an easier, unfortunately, story and narrative to tell than to truly unpack what it takes to live in that world for that long.

    20. MS

      And that's probably the only exposure other than things like this, like a podcast where people actually get to sit down and talk, that the only exposure these people ever have if they don't know anyone that was in the SEALs or no one wa- anyone that was a Green Beret or Ranger-

    21. AS

      Yeah.

    22. MS

      ... or what have you, they don't, they don't know. So, you know, maybe they read an article in the Times like, "Oh, these people are assholes. This is terrible. Look what they're doing to the recruits. We need to dial this down. We need to dial this back," like I have to do at the office. Like they don't have a comprehension of like what is necessary to get the job done and what you guys have to do.

    23. AS

      Yeah, if I could rewind the clock back to 2010, my last deployment, and you take somebody who says that the training that we are talking about is unnecessary, like why don't you just get in my hip pocket for tonight? Why don't you just come with me on target and at the end of this, we're gonna do a debrief, and you let me know how difficult you think the training should be so you can perform at this level in an environment that might take your life? And they're gonna go, "Okay." Well, I don't know what they would say, but I would assume they would say-... "Yeah, you guys can make this as, really as hard as possible, and I'm totally good with you gassing people, and maybe you should gas them for longer many more times, and you should do this." It's the, it would blow their fucking mind what is actually required to be able to perform in that environment. They, and I can't fault them for not understanding that, because they just don't have exposure to it.

    24. MS

      We've gotten comfortable. We've gotten way too comfortable here. A- and if they saw the atrocities that we saw over there, they would understand why, you know, evil exists and it, you, you've heard the Ralph, uh, Waldo Emerson quote, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand by and, and do nothing." And that, I mean, you, you, we saw ISIS throwing gay men from seven-story roofs with the people in the town watching. Uh, there is evil and, unfortunately, sometimes, uh, you've gotta go to hell to send somebody to hell. It's a, it's a famous quote. Um, it's an ugly job. Uh, I think you said it best. I, I watched an interview where you said, "War leaves a fingerprint."

    25. AS

      Yeah.

    26. MS

      It leaves a fingerprint and, and that fingerprint will always be a part of our, our DNA. Um, and I question some of the things we did and, and the outcomes of the war. And, and I even went back as a BUD/S instructor. I was, I was the junior officer training course director for the SEALs that graduated BUD/S, and my job in one month was to turn them into ground force commanders, GFCs as we call it, and I worked a Hell Week evolution. And when I worked it, I was the, uh, not the, what do you call it, the, not the phase officer, but the OIC for the, the, the evolution.

    27. AS

      Oh, probably just like the shift lead or something like that.

    28. MS

      Yeah, the shift lead. And the first time I, I looked at the guys and I'm like, "Oh my God, we're gonna kill these kids." And they're like, "Hey, hey, Mike, calm down. We thought that the first time we saw this training as well." And we've, we've all been through it, but when you're watching it-

    29. AS

      It takes you back when you go back and actually... 'Cause you go through it the first time and it's so abstract because it's just day after day after day, and you go back as an instructor and there's not enough instructors to, in just first phase, which is where Hell Week occurs. They augment from all the other phases because it's a 24-hour training pipeline from a Sunday till about Friday afternoon. And you watch people who are on the verge of death, and they're there voluntarily. And even though you went through it, it, you sit back and you're like, "Holy shit. Like, did we look that bad?" I remember specifically asking other instructors, like, "Do you think that we looked as bad as they look when we were in training? 'Cause these dudes are the walking dead." I, it's gnarly.

  9. 33:05 – 40:12

    Character under sleep deprivation: Hell Week, selection psychology, and the Johnny Kim example

    1. MS

      That's what I was just gonna say. It, it... Joe, you gotta understand, we've got medical personnel out there. We've got ambulances out there. Sometimes you have a psychologist out there. I mean, we are going through a checklist to mitigate risk down to the lowest, uh, level. But the interesting thing about the assessment and selection is, you know, we used to play a game, who's gonna make it through the training?

    2. AS

      (laughs) Good luck.

    3. MS

      And you are 90% wrong.

    4. AS

      Yeah.

    5. MS

      I mean, we had a NCAA athlete in one of the classes, a f- a starting fullback. Didn't last two weeks of the... How long is the training? Uh, eight-

    6. AS

      BUD/S, 26 weeks.

    7. MS

      Yeah, 26 weeks. Didn't last past the, uh, the second week. And, and I, even going through it, 'cause I was a prior Recon Marine, so I thought I, I knew what they were looking for, made a judgment on some of the kids that were going through BUD/S with me. One of them was a little Asian kid who was sort of passive, uh, and unassuming.

    8. AS

      Is he an astronaut now?

    9. MS

      Yes.

    10. AS

      (laughs)

    11. MS

      And at the end of Hell Week, at the end of Hell Week, I'd look down the line and I think we started with 250, we ended up with 25. And there's this little Asian kid that weighs probably 140, 150 pounds. I'm like, "Huh. Wow, was I wrong assessing that kid as a, as a fellow student to him." And we ended up in the same, uh, SEAL team. I watched him earn the Silver Star literally with my eyes. Or, or he, he did something that he was awarded the Silver Star for. Then he went back and, and became a Navy doctor. And yeah, became a astronaut all by the age of 34, and his name is Dr. Johnny Kim. And he's, he's the most humble dude that you'll ever meet.

    12. AS

      Classic underachiever.

    13. MS

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      So what is it when you're looking at them and they look like they're at the verge of death? Like, what, what part of the program are they going through?

    15. AS

      I would say when you're seeing them at that phase, it's gonna be the trenches of Hell Week. 'Cause that is literally a 24-hour-long, from Sunday evening, somewhere between sun going down at 6:00 PM to whenever they start it with breakout at 8:00 PM, all the way through to Friday. You're gonna get about two hours of sleep on Wednesday. So it's gonna be Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they're, they're absolute walking dead. By-

    16. JR

      Is...

    17. AS

      By design.

    18. JR

      They're just barely getting any sleep at all?

    19. AS

      Two hours of sleep on Wednesday, that's it.

    20. JR

      That's it. So-

    21. AS

      You might get like some micro rewards because everything is like a team evolution. There's some really famous pictures of people running with boats on their heads, and if you win an evolution, you maybe get five minutes of standing there by yourself. Or the instructors might let you put your boat down and they'll not pay attention to you for a little bit so you can get like a micro nap. Other than that, they're, they're just moving constantly. Evolution after evolution after evolution after evolution.

    22. JR

      How can you stay awake that long?

    23. AS

      Hypothermic. You're constantly being told to do things. I mean, the main tools that you have at BUD/S is the beach, so you have sand, which is obviously an amazing abrasive, and the cold water. And, and like the main tools at BUD/S are telephone poles, which are super low tech. These IBSs, inflatable boats, small, which is a air-filled rubber boat carried by s- uh, six people on each, or three on each side and an officer in the back generally, 'cause as Mike knows from his career, they're just generally doing less than the enlisted. (laughs) Um, and that's it. I mean, those are the main tools. So they're always... They're racing, they're running, they're paddling their boats, they're call- crawling through the mud pits. They're just constantly moving.

    24. JR

      So the sleep deprivation is about testing your will or testing your ability to endure when you're in conflict.

    25. AS

      And your character.

    26. JR

      Your character.

    27. AS

      And your character. I would describe, and this is my description, not anything that I think the Navy would agree with, but I would describe BUD/S training as an ability to look at who somebody really is when you're at the lowest point you ever, ever thought you've been at emotionally, physiologically, psych- psychologically. And when presented a choice...... are you gonna take care of yourself, or are you gonna take care of the people that are next to you? That is what BUD/S, to me, boils down to.

    28. MS

      Make somebody cold and make somebody tired, and we're talking three days without sleep. I mean, when in your youth, prior to that, did you ever go three days without sleep?

    29. AS

      Probably never.

    30. MS

      Ever. Ever. And you see different peop- you see people for who they are.

  10. 40:12 – 46:39

    After BUD/S: SQT pipeline, standardization, and attrition as a societal mirror

    1. JR

      And when you get out of BUD/S, what is the process, like once you graduate, once you're out of BUD/S, what's the process from there out?

    2. MS

      Training.

    3. AS

      Yeah, I'm a little over my skis on this one because they changed it. When I went through, we did a bunch ... So, the goal at the end of the day is to be awarded your trident. It's a metal pin that you get handed and they change your NEC, or what does that mean? Naval Enlistment Classification?

    4. MS

      Yeah.

    5. AS

      It ch- it changed it to a 5326 for an enlisted person, which means you're a SEAL. When you show up on ... Like, you're now officially a SEAL. When I went through, it was BUD/S, it was static line jump school out at Fort Ben and we checked into our team, and they put us through another six months to a year of training. And then you went around all of the departments and you tested in front of your peers and you were doing calculations for a demo. You were planning a dive with currents, you were taking apart weaponry. I mean, you were talking about tactics. And it, it was a very ... At the time, I, I was like, "This is unbelievable." Like, I thought it was just this robust test of knowledge. I look back now, I'm like, "Holy shit, those were the entry level," like, those were just the chapters. I didn't understand the words that were even on the page. So, each team kind of did their own thing. And, you know, post 9/11, a lot of things got course corrected, and I think this is one of them. They realize it's not a good idea to have SEAL Team 5, which is literally a, a nine iron golf shot away from SEAL Team 3 doing different training. Probably better if we all get the same product at the end of the day. So, now when you graduate BUD/S, you go to a program called ... it's SQT, SEAL Qualification Training, which is gonna be like another maybe two years depending on when you time it. And you go through ev- cold weather training, jungle training, uh, desert training, wea- like everything. You know, comms, all of that stuff. And at the end of that, they graduate as a class. They're all awarded their trident, so they all have the same baseline level of training, and then you go to your SEAL team. So, you're two years into a pipeline before you show up for your first day on the job at a SEAL team.

    6. MS

      And that's what I went through.

    7. AS

      Like what he's describing.

    8. MS

      Like broadly. Like there, there's gonna be some outliers in that, but that, broadly that covers what they're gonna do for the pipeline. Basically, we were better and smarter than, than his generation.

    9. AS

      They knew more, for sure.

    10. JR

      Is it difficult to get people to ... Is it like ... Do, do you have the same amount of people that are trying to become SEALs now as there was in the past? Or is it ...

    11. MS

      I would say so.

    12. AS

      Yeah.

    13. JR

      Yeah?

    14. AS

      I would say so. If not more.

    15. MS

      It's, it's more competitive to even get into the training.

    16. AS

      Yeah. Real-

    17. MS

      Because they've got thousands of kids competing for only 250 slots per class. And these kids are better athletes, they're smarter, uh, so it's, it's more competitive. So, the process is work. The- y- there is something to say for Hollywood and, and, and, you know, the Paramount+ show, you know, SEAL Team, they are a funnel filler.

    18. JR

      ... for recruitment, for high-performing kids coming out of high school or college that, that wanna give it a shot to see if they have what it takes to become a, uh, a SEAL, an Army Special, uh, Forces, uh, Green Beret, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, Raider. Um, and that's the whole point. The whole point is to, uh, we hope the next generation behin- coming behind us is better, faster, stronger than, uh, than we were.

    19. AS

      It, it's interesting you ask that though, because in one of those articles, and I believe it was around, uh, I read it in an article, it was around the young man's death, it was talking about the attrition rate, you know, the number of people that are making it through.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. AS

      And it would appear that the attrition rate, or the number of people making it through is decreasing, which gives you an opportunity to look at that in two different directions. I know I have my take on it and then there seemed to be a more popular take that was being talked about. And the more popular take was, "Well, this training is too hard. Why are we doing these things?" The way I look at it is, let's assume that the training has actually been the same largely since its inception. I think it was in, like, the '40s or '50s when they switched from being the, you know, the UDT into the SEAL teams. If the training's actually stayed the same and we're using the same fucking telephone pole logs, I wouldn't be shocked if we were still using some of the actual same telephone pole logs from back in the day, then what is it that is actually tr- changing? And the answer is, the people who are attempting the training. So, instead of vilifying the training, maybe we oughta take a hard look at our society and maybe the curriculum is just doing, is doing just fine, but as a society, we're getting softer and softer and softer with less resilience. And that, to me, explains a lot more the, the differences in attrition than the actual curriculum itself.

    22. JR

      It's hard to argue that that's not the case in terms of the people that you see today. Like, it seems like today, people d- demand more, they feel like they deserve more, they feel like they're entitled to more, and they feel like they wanna work less. I mean, that, that's a narrative that you see pushed over and over and over again, which is the exact opposite you want for any kind of extraordinary achievement. That attitude is gonna keep you from ever being extraordinary at anything if you think that the world owes you something-

    23. AS

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... you think that you're entitled to something, you think that you're working too hard. The, the people that excel in any endeavor in life are the people that are willing to work the smartest, the hardest, and the people that are able to get out of their own fucking way and realize that they're task-oriented, they, they get the job done, whatever the fuck it is. People that concentrate on ... And, and this is something that's enforced in our society, people that concentrate on the, the negative aspects of things, like the, like, that, you know, "Why is it so hard? Why is this, why does this person have something that I don't?" You know, "Why do they get a chance and I don't?" And that, that kind of thinking is encouraged in our culture today. It's, like, encouraged that if you didn't succeed, it's more likely that somebody fucked you over. It's, it's less likely that you're kind of fucking lazy or entitled or, you know, and nobody wants to tell anybody that today. Nobody wants to tell you, but you're getting worked up on.

    25. AS

      Well, or you'll get ganged up on-

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. AS

      ... by the people who are used to being told, like, "It's not me, it's everything else-"

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. AS

      ... externally." Yeah, I don't know where the end state leads to that, but I don't, I don't think it's awesome. I don't, I don't think it's the place where we wanna end up.

    30. JR

      It's only awesome for people who don't think like that, 'cause then they excel. (laughs)

  11. 46:39 – 51:30

    Victimhood culture, ‘bullying’ rules, and the Gordon Ryan deplatforming debate

    1. JR

      ... to become that. And therein lies the problem, I think. So, one, I, I think the next epidemic that we need to confront and confront now is victimhood. It's, it's permeating the United States-

    2. AS

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      ... uh, rapidly. But you're awarded for it.

    4. AS

      You're rewarded for it.

    5. JR

      But you look at Gordon Ryan, everyone who looks at him on social media thinks it just came overnight.

    6. AS

      Well, he just got canceled on social media. I can't believe you brought that up.

    7. JR

      Yeah, what is happening with this v-

    8. AS

      They shut his account down.

    9. JR

      They didn't even know why, they didn't even tell him why. They said it was bullying.

    10. AS

      So-

    11. JR

      He's literally in a business where elite athletes that are trained killers try to bully each other.

    12. AS

      I think-

    13. JR

      (laughs) That's, but it's what they do.

    14. AS

      Yes. And then they end up going to a mat and actually objectively working it out, and then they generally high five afterwards and they fucking move on.

    15. JR

      Yeah, and a hug. If you look at the photos of him and Andre Galvao after he strangled him-

    16. AS

      It was awesome.

    17. JR

      ... they're, like, hugging each other. He's holding Andre's hand up, they, they hug.

    18. AS

      I think, and I heard this from somebody else, that he ... Let's be honest, Gordon gets a little wild from time to time, so he'll say some shit.

    19. JR

      Of course he can, or of course he does, rather. That's why he's who he is-

    20. AS

      'Cause he, he-

    21. JR

      ... 'cause he does think like that.

    22. AS

      I think, what I was told is that he essentially told someone that they should go kill themself, which again, that was told to me second or third hand, but that would fall into, like, the bullying policy.

    23. JR

      Did he tell another elite jujitsu fighter that they should kill themselves?

    24. AS

      I would be shocked if it wasn't another elite jujitsu fighter.

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. AS

      And I'm not even positive that's what happened, but to me, in, in my head I'm like, "Okay, that would probably make sense if they were to take that action."

    27. JR

      H- how many times did we tell that to each other when you do something embarrassing? "Don't do-"

    28. AS

      I told that to you when we were out there.

    29. JR

      (laughs)

    30. AS

      (laughs)

  12. 51:30 – 1:15:02

    MMA as reality check: wild champions, pay economics, and rules (knees, elbows, ‘real fight’ logic)

    1. JR

      You're thinking something big. I'll, I'll give like Jocko. There's an element of Jocko that I, like, I highly respect. He's got the showmanship piece-

    2. AS

      100%.

    3. MS

      ... down and, and he won a lot of fanfare because of that. He does that well. But y- you know, you look at our industry, the highest performers are also the wildest variables. They're ... Like to, to attain that level, to get to that level, there is an imbalance, an, uh, an imbalance, uh, amongst those guys.

    4. JR

      Look at MMA, look at Jon Jones. He's the wildest motherfucker ever and he's the best. I mean there's a reason why he's the greatest light heavyweight of all time. He's fucking wild. He's a wild dude. I mean when he was fighting Daniel Cormier and they were doing the press conference he said, "I beat you when I was on coke."

    5. AS

      (laughs)

    6. MS

      (laughs)

    7. JR

      You know how funny that is? That's fucking funny, man 'Cause that fucks with a guy. When a guy's getting up in the morning and eating oats and, and drinking distilled water and fucking jogging up hills and this dude's doing blow-

    8. AS

      Looking in the mirror as you're brushing your teeth like, "Fuck." (laughs)

    9. JR

      ... partying, dancing, kicks your ass. That's, that-

    10. AS

      Will he be back?

    11. JR

      Yes. Yes, he'll be back. Yeah, he'll be back as a heavyweight and, you know, it's a lot of exciting challenges for him at heavyweight. I, I like the fact that he decided to do that. It's interesting. I think he's still the best light heavyweight in the world and he can still make the weight. I mean, he's not really a heavyweight, he's deciding to become a heavyweight. He's doing it through deadlifting and squatting and, like, serious power lifting. You know, he's put on a lot of weight. He's put on ... I think he's like 253 now or 255 now. He's fucking ... He's a big fella.

    12. AS

      Still with the same gas tank?

    13. JR

      I don't know. It's ... I don't know how you could, honestly. You know, I mean how, how do you have the same gas tank? You don't see heavyweights operate at the same pace that you see welterweights or lightweights.

    14. AS

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      There's a reason for that. I don't think you can. And if you look at someone like Demetrious Johnson who's a fucking, a whirlwind in there, he's 125 pounds. There's a ... You know, you don't have a lot ... The demand for oxygen is very different than Francis Ngannou. You, you don't see a guy like Ngannou that fights at that pace. They, they literally cannot. It's, there's, these variables need to be taken into consideration when you apply tactics and strategy and how you choose to ... You know, obviously he has a different amount of force in each shot and that is also the case too. I talked to Max Holloway about that once. We were talking about, uh, Jose Aldo and I was, I was asking him like, like he knew that Aldo was fading after like one or two rounds and he said, "It's power." He goes, "Those guys have more power than me." He goes, "They're hitting harder, you know, and that shit takes up a lot of energy." And he was kind of laughing about it. He's like, "I don't have any power, man." He's like, "Those guys have so much more power." He goes, "I gotta hit a guy a lot of times to take him out." But these guys, th- these one shot guys, they're all like ... That's Conor, Conor McGregor who's got that incredible power. But that power, when you throw at that explosiveness, you're essentially sprinting whereas other guys are running marathons. You know, a guy like Max Holloway's putting that volume on you. Nick Diaz puts that volume on you. It's a different s- type of fighting.

    16. AS

      I got nothing but respect for those guys. How much would you have to get paid to get in an octagon?

    17. MS

      A lot of money.

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. MS

      And I would not last long.

    20. AS

      I don't think, I don't think there's an amount of money that I would do it. Those guys are out of their damn minds.

    21. MS

      You, you would do it for the right price.

    22. AS

      No, I would not.

    23. MS

      You would do it, bitch.

    24. AS

      I like to do safe things.

    25. JR

      Shut the fuck up. (laughs)

    26. MS

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      He's still full of shit.

    28. MS

      This is the guy that has the world record for a flying squirrel suit.

    29. AS

      I used to have the world record.

    30. JR

      Oh, who's got it now?

Episode duration: 2:27:03

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