EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,023 words- 0:00 – 2:06
Rogan praises 'What Is a Woman?' and asks how it was made
- JRJoe Rogan
(drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- MWMatt Walsh
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello, Matt Walsh. Joe Rogan- Hi. ... nice to meet you. Yeah, you too. Officially. Um, your documentary's a, a w- it's- (sighs) I can't tell you how many people have asked me if I've seen it. It's- I think it's one of the most eye-opening things that's ever been done on this whole gender confusion thing that we're going through right now in our culture. And, it was just like one of those things where I- I had to watch. Like so many people were like, "You have to see this. You have to see this." And I expected it to be like- (deep breath) I mean, I- I thought it would be like arguments with people or it would be very, you know, very confrontational, but instead, I think you did it masterfully. What you did is you just let these people explain themselves the way they would talk if you weren't there. The way they would talk to people who agree with what they're saying. And by not pushing back, I think you allowed them to- to let all the crazy out. And it's like- it's- it's dis- it's hard to describe to people that aren't aware of what's going on- Yeah. ... of how wild this stuff has gotten. But first of all, tell me, what was the process of making this? Like how long did it take? What- what was the- what was the motivation behind it? (smacks lips) Yeah. Um, thanks for talking about it so much on your podcast, by the way. It's been, uh, it's been a huge boost for us. And we- you know, I- I had this idea- (sighs) you really have to go back several years, because it occurred to me maybe back in, I don't know, 2017 that, uh, when this- when this transgender stuff w- was starting to really gain mainstream traction, which I think happened really- that was like, uh, maybe when Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn Jenner. That was the- that was the moment that I think it exploded onto the mainstream. Not- not when it began, but it exploded onto the mainstream. Right around
- 2:06 – 5:07
The defining-question problem: why 'What is a woman?' breaks the script
- MWMatt Walsh
that time, it- it sort of occurred to me that- that the people promoting this stuff have a- a problem, which is that we're- we're supposed to accept someone like Bruce as a woman, but then what- what exactly does that mean? What are we accepting him as? Like, he says, "I identify as a woman." Well, what are you identifying as? What are we if you're a woman? Well, I- I know what a woman was before, but if now we're including a guy like Bruce, then what is a woman now? And so, I started asking this question, it was really basic, just like, "What is a woman? What- what are you trying to say about womanhood now?" And, uh, couldn't get anyone to answer it. I mean, and mostly it's just on Twitter, you know? And, uh, challenging someone on the left, "Just give me a definition. What- what's your definition of the word?" And, um, none of them would do it, so at a certain point, I thought, "Well, we have to find a way to go out and put this question in front of them." Um, and that's sort of where the idea for the documentary came from. And- and we knew going in that we wanted- we wanted two things. Well, three things. One is we have the- we have the mission behind it, the- the message that we wanna get across. Uh, but we also want it to be a piece of enter- entertainment, you know? Because a lot of conservative documentaries, not all of them, but many of them are just- you feel like you're watching an extended version of a podcast or something. It's not- there's- it's not a piece of entertainment. So, we wanted it to be that. And then, we also knew that, uh, the way this is going to work, if it works at all is if I'm just asking questions and I'm- 'cause if I- if it's- if it's me going on a tour around the country yelling at people, that would be satisfying for me emotionally, but it just wouldn't- it wouldn't prove anything other than what people already know, which is that two sides yell at each other. Uh, so we wanted to give sort of gender ideology a chance to hang itself by its own incoherences, which is- which I think is what- what happened. T- I think you definitely accomplished that. And th- that- it's- it's so funny that that question, "What is a woman?" is so difficult to answer. And then they'll say, "Well, someone who identifies as a woman." And you said, "Well, what does that mean though?" Right, so then- And then, they wanna just stop talking. Like- Yeah. ... what- what was the- the politician that actually had you leave his office when you...? Yeah, we actually- we had a couple that, uh, stormed out, but only one made it on- on camera, and that was the- that was, um, uh, Mark Takano, congressman in, uh, California. And he's one of the- he's one of the advocates. There- there's a reason why- there's a reason we chose all these people. It wasn't just random. He's an advocate. He's not just a Democrat politician. He's an advocate for the Equality Act, which is, uh, this push by Democrats to kind of federalize all this stuff on a national level, so that all across the country, for example, men have the right to use the women's restroom and opens up all the sports teams and all that. It just settles it. Takes it away from the states. And so, he's an advocate of that, and he's a- so a good guy to talk to. And, um, we- we- he- he sat there for about 30 minutes, uh, especially when I'm asking him the easy questions, and he would give his like filibustering answer, but then once I started asking real questions, that's when he got really uncomfortable. Y- you could even see in the film, he keeps
- 5:07 – 7:43
Women’s spaces, prisons, and system-gaming: where policy hits reality
- MWMatt Walsh
looking over my shoulder, and that's because his aide is standing right behind my back the entire time. And, uh, but she never- I- I was- I kept expecting her to cut it off and- and shut it down, but she never did. And eventually, he just had enough of it and he got up and left. But the thing that made him leave was, I didn't even get to ask him the what is a woman question. I asked him, uh, I- I- I asked him, you know, there- there are males who want to use the women's restroom or the women's locker room, but then there are females who don't want to see an individual with a penis in the locker room, so you've got two competing claims here, two people who have feelings, the women who feel like they don't want to see this, it makes them feel bad to see it, and then the men who it makes them feel bad if they can't use the restroom. So, who wins out? How do you balance that? I think it's a fair question. And- It's a very good question. And that's when he just got up and said, "The interview's over," and walked out. Well, th- in those scenarios where- this is where women, particularly feminists who have always been like hardcore lefties, they're li- like they're finding themselves in this ideological quagmire. Yeah. They're like, they're- they're feminists-
- JRJoe Rogan
... they're pro-women's rights, they're on the left, and they're not anti-trans. But then all the sudden, this is getting imposed into their world, and they're told they have to accept it, or they're transphobic, regardless of this person's sexual history. Like, if this person is a sexual abuser, if this person is a, a, a, like a literally registered sex offender, they can go into certain places, dress like a woman, and use women's spaces.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. It's the Louise Spa case in, in Los Angeles.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's like, I mean, there's so many instances of people gaming the system, right? There's the prisoner who went to jail and immediately decided they were trans and impregnated two prisoners while they're in there.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. That, that's happening all over the country, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
And these, these women have no... You wanna talk about giving a voice to the voiceless? These women have no voice. They're in prison. What are they, who are they supposed to talk to? And, uh, and, and they're getting locked in a... Can you imagine that? You're a, a woman. Most... And many women who are in jail are in, are in jail for non-violent offenses. Um, and now they're in, locked in a cage 24 hours a day with men, many of them are sex offenders.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that guy was a murderer.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that guy had murdered his foster care father, and the, the, the cops who went to the crime scene said it was the worst murder they had ever seen. He'd been stabbed from his face down to his ankles. Like, his... He'd just been stabbed an insane amount of times, just a-
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... bloodbath. This is the person that just decided right after getting arrested that they identify as a woman.
- 7:43 – 10:54
Categories of transition: parents, teen contagion claims, and autogynephilia debate
- MWMatt Walsh
And, you know, the other thing to keep in mind too is that, yeah, there are men who are just gaming the system, as you point out. I think in prison, that's, that happens a lot, because they'd rather be in a women's prison than a men's prison. Uh, but also in general, like, there are different categories of, uh, of people who, who transition, and we kind of talk about them like they're all the same, but they're not. And you can kind of break it down by age, like there's the very young children, f- a five-year-old, and we hear that, "Oh, my five-year-old is trans." That's 1,000% the parent just deciding they're gonna do that to the child, because no child is gonna admit, no child even knows what that is, so you have to, you have to suggest that to them. Then you have the adolescent girls, and, you know, Abigail Shrier has written about this in her great book.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Uh, and, and they're, that's the social contagion. They pick it up from society. But then there's the older men who are adults and decide one day that they're women, and for so many of them, this is a fetish. I mean, this is like the, uh, the thing we're not allowed to say or acknowledge, but it's totally true, that for most of, for most of these older men who decide that, "I'm a woman," it's a fetish. It's autogynephilia.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
They're, they're, they're, uh, enchanted by the idea of themselves as women. And so now, now we have to participate in your fetish? Like, you, you get off on the idea of being seen as a woman, and I have to be, I have to be a participant in that. It's r- it's really a, it's really d- degrading and, to all of us, you know, that, that we're all being forced into this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's always been a, a psychological condition. It's always been known as being like a psychiatric condition, like it's a mental health issue.
- MWMatt Walsh
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And now, it's being accepted as a gender identity issue. Where it was always just like a weird kink that people had, and now you, you're, ag- reg- again, regardless of whether or not this person's a sex offender, registered sex offender, repeated sex offender, you have to accept this. Otherwise, you're a bigot. It's just this, this rigid adherence to ideology is so cult-like, it's so wi- it's so fucking Handsmaid Tale. It's, it's so wild that people are just wholesale adopting this. And this is not to deny that there's people that are trans. I've met people that are trans. It exists in nature. I mean, you occasionally, guys will shoot a buck and they'll find out that it's actually a female with antlers. Nature's weird, right? I think nature does put people, uh, make humans, for whatever reason, that really feel like they should have been born a female or should have been born a male. But that's not all of what's happening. And in our desire to be compassionate and to have care for these people and to, to l- love these people and respect these people, we're opening the door to all this chaos.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think that's what you highlight so well in this film, and it's just, it's so strange to me how so many people on the left, people that I've, you know, before this, I generally respected their opinion, just buy into it wholesale and will spout out things as if they're facts about how much this helps people and keeps people from killing themselves and, and, and, and helps kids. Like, but it's not true.
- 10:54 – 12:23
Suicide claims and 'affirmation' as emotional blackmail
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. It's not true. And the, and the, the suicide stuff is so, it's just so sinister, because this is the emotional blackmail that they, that they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
... tell parents. That, uh, you know, your daughter identifies as a, as your son now, and then the classic line, the now classic line is, "Would you rather have a, a dead daughter or a living son?" Like, you have to affirm this or your daughter's gonna kill themselves. And so many parents especially, you know, you go back a couple years when this conversation wasn't being had on a, uh, at a very visible level, they're, they just, they don't know what to do. They're just like, they- they're panicked. And, uh, they've just been told by a mental health provider who they trust that if they don't go along with their child's delusion, that their child's gonna commit suicide. So, I, I can understand when you're told that, that you're gonna kinda panic. But it's just, it's not true. Um, the evidence, in fact, tells us the opposite, that suicidality, we cover this in the film, Scott Newgent mentions it, that the, the only reliable long-term study we have on this sh- shows that suicidality is the highest after, years after transition. That's the highest point for suicidality among trans people. But the other problem too is that, is that there are a couple of maybe reliable long-term studies, but there aren't that many, because we haven't done this to people on this scale ever before in human history. So, the current crop of, uh, especially trans, quote unquote trans kids, they're the, the guinea pigs. They're the, we're experimenting on them.... and they're making a lot of ... the, the healthcare providers are making a lot of promises about how this is going to turn out when they can't possibly know this, because we've never done it before to people.
- 12:23 – 17:24
Puberty blockers, medical risks, and the 'conveyor belt' to surgery
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's the, one of the more sinister aspects of it for me, is the way they're encouraging hormone blockers and hormone transition for people that are going through puberty or haven't gone through puberty. It's just, uh, we don't have any long-term studies on this, and now they're finding that these hormone blockers aren't innocuous, and that they, they cause a lot of health problems. And they're, they're saying this now, out in the open-
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... when people have been, for years, the last few years, promoting this as if it's a pause button.
- MWMatt Walsh
And that's ... and it's just absurd, because that's not, that's not how human biology works.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- MWMatt Walsh
I, I think there's a lot, a lot of what they claim, it just, i- i- it shouldn't, i- intuitively it doesn't make any sense. It, it defies common sense, even before you look at the data. Then you look at the data and you realize that, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But even before that, it ... you can't ... w- w- what, what's being claimed, that you can kind of put a child in a state of suspended animation, where they're l- l- they're kind of lingering on, on pause? That's not how the human body works. If you ... what you can do is try to suppress the human body's normal natural functions, but when you do that, it's a trade-off. There are consequences.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
There are always consequences. That's how nature works. And, um, and we also know that one of the drugs they use, like, Lupron is a drug they use as a puberty blocker, and it's just a fact that this drug, number one, to begin with, is a cancer drug, originally for, for, for older men who have prostate cancer. And, uh, and they've also used it to chemically castrate sex offenders. I think in, uh, Georgia they've used it for that purpose. So, it's an actual chemical castration drugs, drug, used off-label for, you know, t- 10-year-old or 11-year-old, 12-year-old kids.
- JRJoe Rogan
With no long-term data-
- MWMatt Walsh
Right, because there can't be.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and they're promo- they're promoting it as this, this is the silver bullet. This is gonna fix you.
- MWMatt Walsh
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is the thing that's gonna fix all your ails.
- MWMatt Walsh
And the other thing they do is they, they say that, "Well, we don't, uh ..." because as this conversation has grown about, um, s- s- actual surgery for children, which is happening all across the country, but what they always say is that, "Well, that's not, you know, that, that's not really what's happening, especially younger kids. We just ... it's puberty blockers, not surgery." And yeah, it might be true that they're not performing actual surgeries on 12-year-olds at this point. You know, at least that hasn't, that's not a common practice, but what they don't tell you is that once you put the kid on this conveyor belt, um, they're gonna probably stay on it all the way to the surgery. You've put them in the system. You've put them on ... it is like a conveyor belt system, and they're most likely not gonna jump off. You start with the puberty blockers. Almo- in almost every case it's gonna lead to the, uh, to hormone therapy, and then in a great many cases, they go from there to, uh, to surgery. The other thing, too, is that you've ... as you're, as they're going along with these drugs, you are taking away ... you're sterilizing them, you're, you're oftentimes permanently taking away their future fertility. So, you know, you, you've taken away their capacity to ... like a girl. You've, you've, you've made it so she'll never be able to have kids in the future. You've already taken that from her. She, she has given it up before she even could know what she's even given up. Um, and then for her, it's kind of a logical process. "Well, I've already given that up, so I might as well go get the double mastectomy," and then all down the line.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) And then there's the, the euphoria that comes with taking testosterone that happens to them, like, almost immediately. They have a different feeling, and they go, "Oh, this is how I should have been all along. Now the medicine is helping me." It's, i- i- it's also if someone identifies as male or identifies as female, and this is just how they feel they are, what is th- like, what's the logical argument for starting to give them hormones that are not natural in their system?
- MWMatt Walsh
I, I don't think there is a, a logical argument. Um, the only argument you ever hear from them, and I know because I've a- I've asked, is, uh, is the emotional blackmail argument, that it just you have to do it, because if you don't, they're going to kill the ... But, but, uh, another point about the suicide thing I wanna mention is that, you know, we, we know that trans identification has risen, in the youngest generation, has risen, like, 20 or 30-fold. Right? And what, what they tell us on the left is that, "Well, that's not social contagion. This is just people now feel comfortable to live their truth, so there's always been this many trans people. It's just that in the past they couldn't announce that to the world, because it was, it was an un-affirming society."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MWMatt Walsh
That's what they tell you. Well, if that's true, and you had, you had, you had, like, millions of trans people in the past who are living in these un-affirming societies, and we're also told that if you don't affirm trans people, it leads to suicide, then shouldn't we see, if we look back through history, just this unbroken mass epidemic across the world of people killing themselves en masse because they're not being affirmed as trans? That's not what we find. Shouldn't we see, like ... you know, you, you should, you should be able to go back to 1850 and find millions of kids killing themselves because it turns out they were trans and not being affirmed. But s- child suicide almost, like, didn't exist up until very recently. Um, it was basically unheard of. So, it's just ... everything they say d- just ... when you, when you, when you apply a little bit of common sense, it all starts to break down.
- 17:24 – 30:07
How gender ideology became mainstream: Kinsey/Money roots and truth relativism
- JRJoe Rogan
When do you think this sh- do you think it's the Caitlyn Jenner thing that shifted it? Like, when did this become a big part of the cultural narrative? Because I would have never imagined, if you came up to me 20 years ago and said, "In 20 years from now, like, g- gender identity will be one of the big points of contention in our culture, among politics."
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah, I, I think it ... you kinda decide where you wanna start, because like in the film, we go back to, uh, Alfred Money and, uh, or Alfred Kinsey and John Money.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MWMatt Walsh
That's mid-20th Century. So, these ideas were out there. I mean, these are the guys who came up with ... like, they, the phrase "gender identity" was invented by, by these guys.
- JRJoe Rogan
Kinsey was a wild dude.
- MWMatt Walsh
Y- y- yeah. He was. They, they both, they both were. They were degenerate pedophiles. Um, and it, it's clear in both of the, especially Kinsey, it's pretty clear that he had his, uh, sexual...... fetishes and fascinations, and he wanted to prove to himself that he's not weird, because everyone's like this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
And so, he, he goes out and, uh, y- you know, he, he declares... I think he said that 10% of adult males are gay or something like that. And, uh, and then you find out that he's, he's m- mostly serving prisoners and sex offenders and, you know, people like that. He's not, he's not going to just a, uh, a normal intersection of, of, of Americans. So, you go back to those guys, but I think ... what's, what's the moment when all this exploded into the mainstream? It kind of ... it was, like, seeded into our institutions, and then there was a moment when it, when it all became mainstream. And I don't know if Bruce Jenner is the definite starting point, but I do think that that was a, uh, a pivotal, pivotal moment. It was a pivotal moment, not just because now the media is celebrating this, but also because conservatives, you know, had an opportunity right then and there to, to, to take a stand against this, to recognize it for what it is, for the threat that it is, and to take a firm stand. And I think so many conservatives didn't, because they just imagined that this is ... either they don't wanna get in trouble, be called a transphobe, or they just thought it's sort of a sideshow. And, um, and so they just ... many conservative, uh, basically ignored it, up until-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think anybody realized it was gonna get this big.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. I, I think a lot of people didn't, but, I mean ... it, it should have been, it should have been more clear. I guess woulda, coulda, shoulda, but it, it should have been more clear because this was a, this was ... they're waging an assault on, like, basic, fundamental reality, and, uh, so it goes way beyond. This is not just about gender. This is about reality. That's why in the film, every conversation I had with someone on that side of it, every single one devolved into this, "Well, what is truth? And who's truth? And how do you know what truth is?" And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
You know, so I'm sitting in the same room as someone and, and, and th- but I can't get them to acknowledge that we exist in the same reality. We can share a room, but we, but we don't share a, a reality. You know, I, I had ... there was ... in the film, there's one woman that we talked to on the street, and she was giving me this, "We all have our own truth," thing. And then I said, uh, "Well, what if it's my truth that you don't exist?" And she said, "Well, then I don't exist."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MWMatt Walsh
Like, she was willing to j- erase her own existence, if that's how I perceive it. It's to- it's totally incoherent.
- JRJoe Rogan
I found out about a- the, the w- the r- the reaction that people have to this and how strongly they're committed to this when there was a transgender fighter that was, uh-
- MWMatt Walsh
Falcon.
- JRJoe Rogan
... hiding the fact ... Fallon Fox was hiding the fact that they were biologically male and competed twice as a woman, beaten the fuck out of these women. And I was like, "This is crazy." Like, you can't ... and then ... and trying to say that it was just a medical procedure. And when I, I thought, rightly, got angry at it, I saw all these articles written, all these pieces about how transphobic my position was and what a horrible person I was. And like, w- we're, we're literally talking about someone not telling someone. I said that, look, if you are a, a transgender athlete and you tell someone, "Hey, I, uh, was biologically male, but now I identify as a female. Would you like to fight?" And that person still says yes, all in. Go ahead. Have fun. Just like I think you should be able to ride bulls and go dirt biking and skydiving. Do whatever wild, dangerous shit you wanna do. But to hide the fact that you're biologically male and you were a male for 30-plus years, that was madness to me.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they had already drawn this line in the sand. And I was ... I remember arguing with someone on Twitter about it, when this woman said, "She was always a woman." I go, "Even when this person impregnated a woman and had a child with them." She's like, "Even then." Like, even then. She stuck her penis in a woman, got her pregnant-
- MWMatt Walsh
That's a science. Follow the science. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... became a father, and even that, during that act, she was a woman. Like, what are ... exactly what is a woman? What the fuck are we talking about?
- MWMatt Walsh
They, they ... what they're really saying is that this person ... they're talking about self-perception, like, this person perceived himself that way. But s- but self-perception is not always reality. There's like ... of course, we all re- ... in, in most other contexts, we recognize that a person can have a self-perception that just is not true, it's just inaccurate. I mean, you, you could walk down the street, uh, in any city and find drug-addled homeless people talking to themselves, and if you were to ask them about themselves, you're gonna find ... they're gonna say a lot of things that just don't line up with reality. Uh, and in every other context, we're allowed to acknowledge that, even in medical contexts. I mean, uh, someone who has b- body dysmorphia in the form of, uh, anorexia. You know, a young woman goes to the doctor and she's 90 pounds, and she says, "I, I feel like I'm a 300-pound, you know, fat ass."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
The doctor, doctor is not going to affirm that and say, "Well, if that's how you feel, that's how you ..." Uh, fatness is on a spectrum. I mean, th- they're not gonna give her diet pills. They're going to-
- JRJoe Rogan
But, but why gender? Like, why is gender this ideological battleground? Like, how the fuck did that become this thing where it's, it's encouraging, like, this cult-like mentality, where you cannot ... uh, e- even though things are clearly odd, th- clear- clearly don't make any sense. They don't s- they don't fit with logical reality. You have to adhere to whatever this ideology is promu- promoting.
- MWMatt Walsh
I think it's, it's ... I mean, on a mo- uh, most basic level, I think that this is a, it's a ... like I said, it's an attack on, on truth. And this is ... you know, if you want to, uh ... if your project is kind of ... is relativism, and you wanna get rid of, uh, objective ideas of truth, what are you gonna go after? I mean, if you can go after someone's really fundamental, uh, t- understanding of themselves, it's, it's not just that they're attacking reality. It's like they're attacking the reality of the self, and so they're depriving a person of the ability to understand their own th- themselves. Um, and once you do that, if you're successful on a societal level, then it's sort of like y- it ... the sky's the limit. You can go anywhere from there.... I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, do you think this is, like, a conscious decision, or do you think this is just something that people have adopted because it seems to be the ideology du jour?
- MWMatt Walsh
I think it's, uh, it, it depends on who you're talking about. I mean, uh, at an institutional level, I think it, I think a lot of it is conscious. I think some of the people that I talked about, talked to in the film, I think that they, they know that this doesn't make any sense and that it's wrong. Uh, and, and I think because they have to know it. You know? If you're a doctor, like, you, you do have a basic understanding of male and female. You must. That you wouldn't have been able to get through medical school if you don't. So, I think that for them, it's intensely ideological. It's also, it's also profit-driven. They've got... They're making a lot of money off of this. You know? If a, if a six-year-old boy says, "I feel like I'm a girl," and the response to the boy is, "No, you're a boy, and that's, that's what you are, and that's okay," and he'll get over it, and he'll get over it because it's just a phase, and he'll live a normal life, and that's fine. But there's not... There's no money in that. Whereas, if you encourage the delusion, now that boy individually is worth millions of dollars down the line to, uh, therapists and doctors and endocrinologists and surgeons and everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
So, I think it's, I think it's profit-driven, and then there... And then there's also just a lot of actual confusion out there. People don't really understand what's going on. And then there's cowardice, too. People are, are just terrified, you know? We... I- I've certainly seen a lot of that. People just are... They are scared shitless about being accused of bigotry.
- 30:07 – 36:38
Pronouns, non-binary identity, and social rewards for special status
- MWMatt Walsh
Because there's also a difference between telling people they can't say something, which is what free speech suppression usually is, uh, and that's bad enough, but then telling people that they, that they have to say something-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
... compelling them to actually say something, putting words in their mouth and telling them, "You have to say this." Um, and it's not just... It's not, it's not a... You know, pronouns, it's not a small thing, because when you, when you use the she for a he, uh, you're not only being forced to say something, but you're, you're being forced to...... affirm and acquiesce to a claim that you don't agree with. You're, you're being forced to express a belief that's not yours. I mean, it's like, uh, it, it's not much different from, y- you know, a, a dictatorship forcing someone to profess belief in a religion. You know? Forced ... It's like, it's forced conversion, basically, is what it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, and, uh, and o- once you allow that, it doesn't matter. Of course it's gonna start somewhere small. It's just pronouns. It always starts that way. But, but like I said, it's, it's also, it's actually not small. Pronouns are ... There's a reason why the left makes a big deal out of it. So any- any time people on the right say, "Oh, it's not a big deal," in response to the left making a big deal about something, well, they wouldn't be making a big deal about it if it wasn't a big deal. Th- the fact that they, that th- that they're choosing this hill to defend should tell you that there's something here worth fighting over.
- JRJoe Rogan
My kid was going to school with a girl who was a they/them. She decided she was a they/them. And she demanded that they talk in they/them way. Like, you had to use, when you were referring to her, as a plural.
- MWMatt Walsh
Th-
- JRJoe Rogan
This girl wore makeup, dressed like a girl, just decided that she was a they/them, and would get angry if you misgendered her.
- MWMatt Walsh
And, and what-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, not calling her, her a plural.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. And what does that ... What does that mean? So, we, we have enough of a problem getting someone who identifies as a woman to tell us what a woman is, but ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. What's a they?
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. What do you, what do you ... Like, describe to me the feelings of being a they. Describe, you know ... Can you describe that? What is that, what is that experience like? And, uh, and any time you ask someone to do that, it immediately descends into, into incoherence. And also, by the way, the actual, uh, gender-neutral pronoun for an individual is it. It's not they. So it's interesting-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
... that ... Well, nobody wants to be an it because it's dehumanizing.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's offensive.
- MWMatt Walsh
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
They wanna be a, a they. But yeah, you ha- ... If you're calling yourself non-binary, you have dehumanized yourself, because human beings exist in a, in a sex binary, male and female. If you're rejecting that, you are rejecting your human identity, and so you've already dehumanized yourself. You, you are actually an it. If it's true that you are not a male or female, then you are an it. We don't know what else to call you.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then, maybe more importantly, one, one of the things that you're doing when you're doing that is you're giving people ... Especially if you do it to young people. You're giving them an opportunity to be special and to get special treatment without any special act. They haven't done anything that warrants that unique behavior.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. I, I think that's a really important point. I think, I think that's, uh, that's actually so much of this that ... And, and, and people don't notice it. But a lot of this is, uh, is just, it's just standard narcissism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
Especially, you listen to these ... You know, why is this so common among celebrities now? All the celebrities have, have, uh, trans kids and they're coming out as non-binary and whatever else. And then you listen to, like, Demi Lovato or whoever, and you, you listen to them explain why they're a they/them. It's always, "Well, I just, uh, I, I just ... I don't identify with these labels. I'm beyond that. I'm above that."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MWMatt Walsh
It's like, these labels were good enough for billions of humans before you, but it's not good enough for you? That you can't find yourself there? But, but all these other billions of human beings, it was fine, they had no problem. But you're so special that we need to change the rules of the English language for you specifically. It's, it's incredibly egotistical.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's bizarre. It's like, i- if you feel that you're different than everyone else, you're still a female, you're just a different human being who happens to be a female. If you're so unique, go prove it with your actions. Prove-
- MWMatt Walsh
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it with your work. Prove it out there in the world. But to demand this very special attention. And th- and that's what we give people. Like, if you give people that thing today, they'll tell ... Th- there's groups of people that will tell you, "You're amazing, you're incredible, you're beautiful, you're brave." It gives them positive affirmation for making these decisions.
- MWMatt Walsh
It's also, it's also, uh ... A part of what you're describing is, is personality, right? I mean, it, it ... So, if you're saying, "Oh, I'm a, I'm a female but I don't identify with girly things and I don't like the color pink," and whatever, okay, that's your personality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 36:38 – 55:21
Media exposure battles: Libs of TikTok, Vanderbilt, and institutional incentives
- JRJoe Rogan
If you were one of those people that thought that there was a, a literal attack on the foundations of this country to tr- try to destroy it from the youth up, what better way to do it than with social media reinforcing all this stuff? I mean, how many, how many TikTok videos have you seen? Like, Libs of TikTok-
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is a fucking insane account, and so many people get so angry at that account. She's not creating anything, she's curating.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, she's finding all these videos that absolutely exist, and you're angry that someone puts these videos that actually exist of people actually saying insane things about recruiting kids and about, you know, teaching kids things in class that makes parents upset about gender, and that all your kids are gonna be trans, and all, all these videos that she's posted. And people are furious, calling it this hard right, you know, far right account of hate mongering account. Like-
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's a curated account. They're just, she's just finding insane shit that kids are actually being exposed to, en masse, and, and bringing it to people that may not be aware of it.
- MWMatt Walsh
Which is journalism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
That's why I, I really think Libs of TikTok is one of the most important journalists in America, right? One, one of the only ones, because there's not, there, there aren't many journalists out there that are actually doing their jobs of finding things people don't know about and alerting them to it, because that's what you're supposed to do. But I think a lot of it is, is, uh, yeah, these are things that people post on their own. Also, when she posts, um, uh, s- stuff from a, you know, children's hospital saying-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
... that these are the, these are the procedures we perform on kids, they're just reposting what the hospital said themselves.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MWMatt Walsh
But the point is that it's, they don't want us to see it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly.
- MWMatt Walsh
So, the children's hospital, they've got it on their website, and they want only the people who have already bought it. 'Cause if, if you're going to a children's hospital's website to look up gender affirmation care, quote-unquote, then most of the time, you've already bought in. And so, they want you to see that. Uh, TikTok, they, they look at that as, like, it's all the young, progressive people, um, and they're okay with them seeing it. But they don't want, uh, us outside of those bubbles to see these things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and the idea is against it, is that it's misrepresenting, that she's, uh, unfairly highlighting these radical people that are th- not the norm. But, like, says who? Says who? These are just w- all you're doing is looking at real videos. Like, if you look, look at Project Veritas, and you catch Twitter employees talking about how they silence conservatives, and they have, like, some hidden camera. The, the argument, "Oh, they caught those people off camera." Like, how do you fucking know? Are you talking to them? Like, this is our only window into this.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, to deny that you get a chance to see a doctor saying, "Oh, we'll, we'll, we'll get a kid in at 16. It's okay." "Well, I thought you only do it at 18." "No, we'll do 16." Like, they've said that before. Like, so we will accept minors for surgery.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. Yeah, that's w- w- when we, uh ... It ... In Nashville, we got Vanderbilt Hospital, and, uh, they were doing this, this stuff to kids too. And, um, I did my own Libs of TikTok routine, where I put, on Twitter, I had this whole thread outlining what, what Vanderbilt, all the, all the services they provide. And, um, and I was accused of the same thing. "Oh, you're taking it out of context," or, "This is, this is misinformation." It's like, I, I'm s- this is, I'm d- documented. This is what they said. This is on their website. I have the documents. I have the videos. And, uh, they said all that, but then the interesting thing is that after the, uh, after we reported on it and it was this big deal, Vanderbilt Hospital, after a couple weeks, sent a letter to our state legislators saying that they're gonna put a pause on gender affirmation surgery for, for minors. Well, if you're pausing it, it ... I- I thought it wasn't happening. 'Cause if you're pausing it, it means that it was happening.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, because of course, it is h- it is happening. Especially, the, the, uh ... Another thing that they, they do to kind of obfuscate is they say, "Well, uh, genital surgeries are not happening to minors." And even that isn't true, because that is happening, but that is more rare. What is much more common are, uh, double mastectomies on minors. And that's, and that is very common, and that's happening in almost every state in the country at, uh, at, you know, exponentially increasing rates. And we're, we're, we are, you know, you're taking the body parts away from girls without them understanding, again, what they're actually giving up or what the, uh, what the consequences will be in the future.
- JRJoe Rogan
And especially knowing what we know about the human mind and the development of the human mind, that, you know, your frontal lobe's not even fully formed 'til you're in your 20s.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
To make, to give these people this ... E- even to give them the option to change your life forever irrevocably, y- you're going to give them a surgery. You're gonna allow them to have a surgery, or force them to have a surgery, or encourage them to have a surgery that's gonna change their life forever. You don't allow them to do that with anything. You can't even get fucking tattooed.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't get tattooed until you're 18.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, I, I remember the job of adults was always to stop us from doing all the incredibly stupid things we always wanted to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Especially as you become a teenager, you're hormonal, you're, uh, you know, you're impulsive. And so, the jobs of an adult is to be the guiding force, to be a, to be, you know, to provide insight, to be a, a source of maturity. But they've just abdicated that completely. I mean, I, I was ... Dwyane Wade has a quote-unquote trans kid, the M- the NBA player. And, um, and now his, his ex-wife has come out and said that she, that he thinks, that she thinks that he has sort- is encouraging this and has imposed it on his son and is ... So, so he can profit off of it, which, which seems like a fair theory to me. But anyway, there was an interview he did where he was on a red carpet somewhere, and he was being praised by the journalist saying, "Oh, you're so great. D- do you have advice for parents out there?" And he said that, "Yeah, your, your job as a parent is to sit back and see where your kids want to go and go there with them." And I'm thinking ... I mean, I have four kids, and if, if I-... adopted that strategy as a parent, all of my kids would be dead by the time they're two years old. Like, sit back and see where they wanna go and just go with them? That's, that's, that's, that's like the opposite of your job as a parent. Your job as a parent is to be... You, you can listen to what they want, but then you are going to... You, you, you have their desires and their opinions, and you're filtering it through your own understanding, your, your much superior understanding of reality, and, uh, then you decide what, what makes sense for them to, to do.
- 55:21 – 1:08:15
De-transitioners, complications, and why public debate rarely happens
- JRJoe Rogan
Does this have to be reported? Is there a database where they're looking at, like, long-term, like, results of how this works out, in terms of ... I mean, are they studying this now, in terms of following these kids? 'Cause if we don't have long-term data on what happens when you give young children puberty blockers or double mastectomies-
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, are they at least following up on these kids, so we can have long-term data in the future?
- MWMatt Walsh
I think each, each clinic has their own policy. I've, I've asked this question of, of, uh ... I've asked this question of some of the, you know, some of the de-transitioners who went through this and then de-transed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
And what was the follow-up process like? And, uh, I've heard different, I've heard different things. But it's not, it's not extensive. Like, uh, I haven't heard that they're following up five years later, just to see how you're doing, kind of thing. I have, I certainly haven't heard that. And the one thing that I, that I always hear is that, um ... is that if they have complications, it's very difficult for them to get those complications addressed. Um, because the doctors that did this to them aren't interested in dealing with it, and then there are other doctors, too, who don't, who don't know how to deal with some of this stuff. So ...
- JRJoe Rogan
What kind of complications are they experiencing?
- MWMatt Walsh
Well, it depends on what we're talking about. I mean, you know, if we're talking about genital surgeries, the complications are just, are endless. I mean, you're trying to create a false, uh, genitals on someone. And it's just, it's, it's, uh, it is a ... In fact, one of the ... We talked to Marcy Bowers, who's a sex-change surgeon in the film. And he said, I think he said it's a F- it's a Faustian bargain. Like, he even admitted that this stuff ... He says it's more, it's more sophisticated now than it was, but there are a lot of complications. Um, and all this stuff is experimental. It's not like you have centuries of, you know, data to fall back on here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. And another thing that's interesting, as I've been paying attention to this, is the experience of the de-transitioners when they go public with it, the amount of hate they experience, and that they get attacked. It's like, you're, you're talking about someone who should be an example, a cautionary tale of like, "Hey, this doesn't always work out well. Let's look at this, and get an accurate as-" If you were looking at this in good faith, so that you would say, "Look at, let's look at this and get an accurate assessment-"
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"... of like, what's the worst-case scenario? What, what happens to some people?" But that's not what's happening. They're getting attacked. I mean, it's ... I've, I've paid attention to some of it, uh, particularly some of these girls that transitioned to boys then tried to go back to being a girl again. It's horrific.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we had, uh ... We did a rally on this, uh, a couple, couple weeks ago in Nashville, against child mutilation. And we had a, uh, a, uh, de-transitioner named Chloe Cole, who came and, and spoke. She's 18 years old, and she got double mastectomy when she was, I believe, 16. Um, and she's up ... She spoke at our rally, and she's up on, on the, you know, at, at the microphone telling her story, and that's all she was doing, is trying ... She was there to tell her story. I wanted her there to tell her story. And she's getting screamed at by counter-protestors in the crowd, saying, "Eff you, fascist," to an 18-
- JRJoe Rogan
"Fascist"?
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah, "Eff you, fascist," to an 18-year-old girl who is a victim of, uh, of, of, you know, medical negligence, and worse. Um, but this, this is the, this is the response that they get.
- JRJoe Rogan
What-
- MWMatt Walsh
Because you're, you're ... You know, they also see ... It's like, "You're a traitor to the community," or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, so they, they get what someone like ... You know, they'll get what I get, which is just, "You're speaking out against this, so we hate you." But then it's ramped up even more, because there's this element of, uh, perceived betrayal.
- JRJoe Rogan
What a bizarre definition of fascism. Call her a fascist, because she's talking about medical malpractice and getting her breasts removed when she was 16 years old, before she knew what the fuck was going on, talking about this horrible experience that she's had.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you decide that that makes you fascist?
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. I mean, fascism, the word is way overused, but if it, if it means anything, I would think use- using intimidation tactics to stop someone from speaking ... If fascism means anything these days, then that, that certainly has to qualify, so I would call that fascism. I mean, you're literally ... And in this case, it was like, you're in the crowd, trying to drown out her voice-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
... by, by screaming at her. Uh, I don't, I don't use the fascism label, 'cause I think it's a silly how it's often used. But I would ... If we're to call, if we're to call something fascist, I would call that a fascist response.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's certainly more fascist than her. It's, um, it's bizarre to me that no one is standing up to try to counter your claims, in, in wanting to go public, in wanting to have some sort of a public debate. 'Cause I, I would imagine that something that's so ideologically rigid in people's minds, that someone would at least have the ego to step up and say, "I can counter these arguments, and I could be the person to publicly shame this person, and, and have a debate with them, and trounce them."
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
With facts and reality and opinions, and des- describe the shared experiences of these people that have gone through this, and it's greatly enhanced their lives. But no one's doing that.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. I mean, there have been, uh ... Right. They, they might post something on Twitter, or they'll, they'll say something in their own bubble. But to me directly, they're not gonna do it. I mean, even, even just getting media outlets to review the film. I, I thought ... I put this film out. I knew it was gonna be panned in, in corporate media, but I figured-
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it?
- MWMatt Walsh
Well, no, because they just ig- they just ignored it, you know? They just pretended it didn't exist. I mean, if you go to Rotten Tomatoes right now, I think we have something like, I don't know, five reviews or something. We've got thousands and thousands of, uh, of audience reviews, but we've got, I think, five reviews. And none of them are from the, from the major, um, media outlets, either. So, they're just ig- they're just ignoring it. But ...I don't think, they don't, they don't wanna se- it, they don't, they don't wanna sit down in an uncontrolled environment and, uh, and t- and talk to you because I think, again, that they know at some level that what they're saying doesn't make any sense. And that, and they also know that, they know they can't answer the question. You know, I've, I've staked everything on this what is a woman question and if one of them could come along and coherently answer it, then that would just, that would blow me out of the water. I mean, that's, everything's done then.
- 1:08:15 – 1:28:51
Where it goes next: transracial/transspecies, Two-Spirit claims, and 'religion-like' ideology
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah, uh, that would... Most of the people we talked to on that side were, were really closed off and didn't wanna open up and say anything. That was not the case with, with, uh, Marcy Bowers. Although, there's an interesting, there's an interesting thing that made it into the film there, where I brought up, um, uh, trans-abled people, which is a real phenomenon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
People who feel like, you know, they have two arms... Someone who has two arms feels like he should have one arm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, should we take that self-identity seriously? And what I was told by Marcy Bowers is, "No, that's kooky." Exact words. But then, the, uh, WPATH, which is the World, uh, which is the, the, you know, supposed to be the preeminent transgender health organization in the world, they had their conference, uh, I think it was in Canada a few weeks ago. And they had a guy pre- presenting something in the conference saying that, um, actually this kind of body dysmorphia is now a valid gender identity. A eunuch, you know, someone who's a eunuch who wants to amputate their male genitals and yet does not identify as female, just wants to amputate them, they identify as that way, um, that now that's a valid, that's a valid gender identity. So, I was told a few, a few months before that, that that's kooky, and then fast-forward a few months, WPATH is saying, "Well, no, that's a valid gender id- gender identity."
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what's, uh, interesting about the social contagion aspect of it, is that it does seem to spread and change and morph, depending on what people accept and what people are willing to agree to. And then once people do agree to that, that a eunuch is a valid sexual identity, well, then that'll become doctrine.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah. Yeah, and because it, it makes sense, too. Because if you, if what, if what we're s- being told is that, uh, you cannot disagree with someone's self-identity, then there, you know, there's no floor there. I mean, uh, then whatever someone claims about themselves, we have to affirm it. And, you know, that, that includes trans-species, trans-racial, all that kind of stuff. You know, that, and that's not even... I don't even think of that as slippery slope. Something like trans-racialism, um, that's not further down on the slope. That's actually less crazy than transgenderism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, because all human beings evolved from Africa.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is less crazy. And there-
- MWMatt Walsh
I mean, w-
- JRJoe Rogan
The reason why there's differs, the, the differences in the way human beings, uh, look and the way we evolve is 'cause we spread to different climates in the world, and the human body adapted to those climates. It's the reason why people are so pale in the place where there's no fucking sun.
- MWMatt Walsh
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, this is all, this is all biology. They understand this. It's, it's more logical to be trans-racial.
- MWMatt Walsh
And race actually is fluid.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Like, you can be multiple races.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, so that makes it... But, but we kinda... We skipped that, and we just went right to the transgender thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MWMatt Walsh
Um, and most people that, that support transgenderism will say that trans ra- r- Rachel Dolezal, they'll say, "Well, she doesn't count as Black."
Episode duration: 3:08:57
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